No matter what you think of Islamic veiling one thing is for sure – criminalising the women who wear the burqa or niqab is only going to render them more invisible.

Versions of the veil. Photo AP

France looks set to pass legislation that bans Islamic face covering. The discussion over how this law could be enforced has centred around punishing the veiled woman. She will be taken home, or fined.

This belies the true intentions of those calling for a ban – banning the burqa is less about liberating oppressed muslim women and more about making white people feel more comfortable.

It is also about creating a scapegoat to unite and energise anti-muslim and anti-immigration sentiment. We should be mindful too that if the ban goes ahead yet another meaning will be transferred to this religious garment – that of defiance against the state on the part of women who flout the new laws.

The burqa ban is just one of a series of volleys fired in a chest-puffing display of European cultural dominance. The recent decision in Switzerland to ban minarets (there’s four of them there, they’re not exactly taking over the landscape), is somewhat dumbfounding if viewed in a vacuum, but it fits in with this overall shift towards a cultural war, which frames Islam as incompatible with secular Europe and enlightenment values.

This topic is a heated one and I am hesitant to weigh in. I’m an atheist white woman and I understand relatively little about the nuances surrounding this piece of clothing within a western context. Often muslim women are elided out of this conversation completely within the mainstream media, so I’m not going to unpack the significance of the burqa within a women’s rights framework, but I am going to talk about the reaction to it from western governments and the general western populace.

There are legitimate reasons to object to the burqa, including on theological grounds. The matter is hotly debated within the muslim community too and there are muslim women who have voiced support for the ban.

However, it is clear, from discussions I’ve had over the years, that it is often white men, who are not exactly torch bearers for the gender equity movement, who object the most vehemently to a woman who removes herself from their gaze. They not only object to face covering shrouds like the burqa, but also to the very common hijab. One problem these men have with the Islamic veil, even if they don’t realise it, is that it challenges their assumed entitlement to gaze upon women’s bodies – not a legitimate reason to object to the burqa. Of course, they co-opt the language of women’s rights to voice their objections.

Islamic veiling has become a marker of difference and a symbol of women’s oppression in muslim countries. That same oppression was used to justify a war in Afghanistan. Now the situation in Afghanistan, outside major centres such as Kabul, is worse than ever. The number of women driven, by such incredible despair, to commit suicide through self-immolation is at an all time high.

Our government has helped cement the power of brutal warlords in the country who are known for their crimes against humanity, in a war which began cloaked in talk of liberation, particularly the liberation of women. The West has a long tradition of using women to justify cultural imperialism and racism. It was also the West who helped to push the Afghan populace toward a radical and extreme interpretation of Islam in order to overthrow the Soviet occupation, funnily enough.

This selective concern for women’s rights is merely a way for people to articulate their racist nationalism and it’s an attitude that can be found through all levels of society – in the general populace, in the media, in the government.

One image that has stayed with me from the Cronulla riots all those years ago was of a hijabi running away from three young white men who were trying to rip off her headscarf. There was a lot of talk during that time of ‘their’ women and ‘our’ women. Women became, once again, the terrain on which to thrash out cultural difference on. Those men ripping off a young hijabi’s scarf probably still talk of how terribly muslim men treat muslim women without having the self-awareness to realise that they are the ones inflicting violence on and encouraging the oppression of that woman, not her brothers or her father.

Likewise, criminalising the 2000 women in France who wear the niqab or burqa (from the five million muslims in the country) only inflicts another form of oppression on fully covered women, both those who choose it and those who are pressured in to wearing it.

Imposing dress codes on people in order to oppose the imposing of dress codes on people is completely counterproductive, but as I outlined above, that’s not the real reason these laws are being considered, is it?

254 comments

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    • Other Wholesale says:

      07:45pm | 28/05/10

      Set up an article directory or help someone else set theirs up. Other Wholesale

    • Religion Wholesale says:

      12:48am | 28/05/10

      The worst fears of stem cell research opponents are more likely to be realized if the federal research ban stays in place, not if it is lifted. Religion Wholesale

    • Timmo says:

      02:04am | 22/02/10

      Agblaster, I do agree with you that we have to keep it clean but the words used are in common use and it was Imran who accused me and I just put his or her words back to him or him or whatever. Chuzoo was also called infidel by imran as well with no reason. I’m glad that it wasn’t my article you were against and that article was not meant to insult any islamic women or the religion of islam. We have to keep an open mind. I try to do that. So Islamic people out there or anyone else should not get upset with my comments. I certainly don’t class myself as racist or anything else and I am definately not caught up in my own rhetoric. I just feel that we are all in this world together and have to make the best of it and there’s nothing wrong with being friends along the way. As far as belief goes I think we will all find out our truths or falsehoods at the end of life and not before. Anyway God loves the sinners more don’t you think.?

    • Non believer from newcastle says:

      09:25pm | 19/02/10

      If you believe in Mohammad and God and Jesus you must also believe in other man made myths like tooth fairy,Santa,Easter bunny etc.
      You muslims should get alife and don’t take life so seriously as we all die in the end. I also agree with France wholeheartedly the burka should be banned so i will see if Peter Garret is available -ho ho ho (xmas laff)

    • agblaster says:

      05:53am | 19/02/10

      Any chance we can keep this conversation clean, Timmo and Imran? Hey? Children can see this blog.

      Kindly leave your dirty language on *your* side of the screen, thanks.

    • agblaster says:

      01:10pm | 21/02/10

      Get a grip. I didn’t refer to your opinion - only to your use of bad language. Keep it clean.

    • Timmo says:

      07:33am | 20/02/10

      Agblaster, What dirty language are you writing about?!! I didn’t notice any dirty language there from me. I’m sure that if there was any dirty language the punch would not have printed the comment.
        Reading back, I see that you have made plenty of comments to others. Freedom of speech agblaster, freedom of speech, the cornerstone of democracy. Isn’t that right?. And also a little humour to level it out. It’s the Aussie way. Either get with the Aussie Lingo or go home.
        And considering that most Kiddies can’t read or write properly these days I wouldn’t worry about them accessing this site, because I was flat out finding it again myself. Get a Grip.

    • Timmo says:

      07:07pm | 18/02/10

      Sam is good and sees the plot and he is very gracious with his reply.

    • Sam says:

      07:54am | 19/02/10

      Cheers mate, you just caught me on a good day that’s all. BTW, love that book “Timmothenians”. LOL.

    • Timmo says:

      05:28pm | 18/02/10

      Firstly, to Mr Imran, obviously a Muslum male projecting to me as a person who wants to see veiled women take off the Burkah. Well Imran’ as a European Decended and Australian born infidel I have seen many women disrobed, so I don’t have a problem with them in that way that you suggested. But you’re the one who brings the accusation to me. And Have you told the Imam that you can use the words shit and perve and hypocrite. Not a good muslim boy at all. I didn’t use those words to write my article did I?. You want to get a grip Mate. You don’t have to project your hatred towards me..
        In my post I mentioned the religions of the Aboriginal Peoples and you haven’t even had one iota of compassion for what they have lost. That tells me another thing about you as well. I think I just might go out now and get myself a cardboard box and cut a few holes in the front. I can hide in there. I will make it a religious garb and I’ll be able to get away with what I want. I’ll adopt the religion of, ” My god is greater than all your gods”, as they do’ and proceed to march over all of those infidel Devil People and take them over. and if they don’t believe what i say then I shall despatch them and then who is left will bow before my God. BLAH BLAH BLAH.
      And so it was that they went out and kicked the infidel Swine and killed their Men, Women and Children and Pissed apon their Ancestors Religions and began to walk around in funny clothes, so people would see a pure believer in the invisible unknown one, who will be good business one day. I shall use the work from Latin Infidel so people will think that I am learned and one day find one of my own to use. I will ponder on the fact the we are all born with no clothes on our bodies, all the same, wow, all the same. And I shall realize, yes, that It was us who made the garb, the religion and the segregation and it has nothing to do with a God. Then I shall become a wise man and walk away from God and throw away my box and stupid ideas and enter the human race with everyone else.
        And so it was done.  From the Timmothenians chap1 verse 1.

    • chuzoo says:

      03:18pm | 18/02/10

      Imran…..my husband talks with veiled women as he mentioned in his post(timmo).......how silly can you get… he does so as they are friends or relatives…...not to perve/flirt with them…..he is a 65 year old grandfather,  some of the kids wear hijab…..think before you type please!!

    • chuzoo says:

      02:36pm | 18/02/10

      I have read some of the comments above with interest…. to Imran,Rahi (and others) unfortunately many aussies who believe in freedom of choice are not being heard clearly…...if it is your choice to wear burqa or hijab go right ahead ...it is your right!  Just as it is my right to wear what I like…..  Do these people question the right of a Seik to wear his turban? An African woman to wear her national dress( if appropriate)....I think not!  I know many Muslims and some women do, some don’t,  makes no difference to the lovely people they are.  My only disagreement with you is that you should not judge our dress habits if you wish us to accept yours.
        Many non Muslims also do not realise that in the original teachings of Muslim… Mohammed said that he was the 2nd prophet and to look to Jesus as the first.  Like all religions/philosophies many changes have occurred over time, but that is another subject!
        We personally try to educate people we know about your faith as we understand it and tell people not to believe all they read in media/ internet/blogs etc as most of it is just hype unless it is a truly factual article.

    • Sam says:

      09:39am | 19/02/10

      @Proud Infidel, mate, we really should get together and have a beer and discuss this further… I think you’re dismissing Judaism and the Messianic movement too quickly. The Messianic ship hasn’t sailed according to the believers. I can imagine that the Jewish Messiah, the second coming of Jesus, and the Muslim Mahdi will all turn out to be one person. 3 in 1(the real trinity)... a perfect ending to this nonsense that’s been going on for far too long. All we need is for everyone to realise that I’m the one and I’m right here in “the lucky country”. grin Why not give me the gig if nobody else wants it? I’ve been considering a career change for a while. grin (tongue in cheek, but open to positive feedback).

    • Proud Infidel says:

      09:11am | 19/02/10

      Imran@ Nice try at a little bit of bridge building with Jesus.
      Jesus is Islam’s Achilles heel.
      From Daylight Atheism
      Jesus is the key to destroying the three great monotheisms. Judaism is out of luck. The Messianic ship has sailed. No one in their right mind could ever be made to believe that someone yet to come is the Messiah. Anyone from here on out claiming to be the Anointed One will be sent straight to the loony bin. Unless, of course, some as yet unknown alien civilization attempts to take advantage of our credulity and shows up in a space ship more advanced than our wildest sci-fi fantasies. Islam is a very poorly cobbled together plagiarism of both Judaism and Christianity. Despite their seeming antipathy for one another, Islam is wholly reliant upon the other two. Islam is discredited the second that either or both Christianity and Judaism are discredited. Jesus’ existence is the easiest to discredit. There isn’t a shred of evidence that he ever existed at all, while there is a mountain of evidence that he was merely a knock off Egyptian Osiris. While Mohammed may have been a bloodthirsty pedophile warlord, he was also an actual flesh and blood human being who managed to hold sway over the minds of thousands upon thousands of credulous souls. But Jesus probably didn’t exist at all. Muslims want desperately to concur with all of the criticisms of Jesus, every single one, right up to the point where you say that he didn’t exist at all, not even as a lowly man. And, the Quran lives and dies with Jesus. Every word of the Quran is supposedly the infallible word of Allah. The Quran is all about Jesus. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Thank you Jesus.

      The best way to learn is from the following website: http://www.daylightatheism.org/ http://www.richarddawkins.net/

    • Imran says:

      05:33pm | 18/02/10

      Chuzoo, How hypocrite can u be when you say, “you should not judge our dress habits if you wish us to accept yours.” In fact you are the people judging Muslim women’s dress. This whole article and everyone’s responses are about Muslim women’s dressing.

      Every Muslim knows that Mohammad was the last prophet of God not the 2nd. Abraham, Mosses, Jesus and many others were before him. How can you teach something that you do not know yourself. If you really are interested teaching Muslims about islam, you need to learn yourself first. The best way to learn is from the following website:

      http://WWW.HARUNYAHYA.COM

    • Timmo says:

      12:38pm | 18/02/10

      Well, I don’t know what to write re this. I am an Australian and in our country and others also, women have struggled for the freedoms they now take for granted and have created by much effort their rights, and men have listened and re-adjusted their thinking to a certain extent, but more has to be done. So now,because of that Women have the vote and equal opportunities that weren’t there before.
        Although much is written about Religions and we are constantly being bombarded with propaganda, we must realize that many Australians are Athiest and Agnostics, so I don’t see any equality or voice for them. Religion is just Belief and Belief is what It is, not provable. So for instance one could believe in a God and it could be any type of symbology in the mainstream and it would have the same amount of truth as others beliefs.
        I think at the moment that if Islamic Women want to wear the Burkah well, why not, but it doesn’t quite fit in and is an odd man out in a western society such as Australia. It says to me something like, Yes, we are exclusive because we wear some garb which excludes us from the rest. I feel that these fundamental ways of dressing belong in the Middle East as does Christianity as they arose from there. Australia is the “Land of the big Red Rock”, and is permeated by Aboriginal Spirits, and yes, they are still active in the nature here. But the Aboriginals Spirit Men and Women have been basically thrown out and the Christian and now Islamic beliefs put in here.
      .Although seen as a great Prophet Muhammed was in history not a very nice person and carried out a lot of murder and mayhem to bring control over minds. Before him, people had different beliefs and these beliefs were quashed and it was the same with the Catholic Popes who were in fact very nasty indeedie. I must admit that I do find it offensive to our beautiful unveiled western women to see women who are just as beautiful covering their beauty just because they married the wrong bloke or were born into suppressive societies. But the greatest sin ,” sinners we all are you know”!,  that some people are not only content to throw their own souls away to the Megadoth but their childrens as well. When I see our own girls and women walking around I don’t have to worry about what religious belief they have, so therefore I can talk with them openly and face to face as it should be. But with others who are veiled I can’t. Why do I and other Australians have to put up with that.?  Many Millions of Muslim women don’t cover the face but yet are as good in belief as the veilers. I may be wrong, but not biased I wan’t you all to know that. I have many Muslim friends and also family members as well and they are great people, loving and kind and gentle.
        My Grandmother, Mother, and their sisters would wear scaves around to hold their hair and keep the sun and wind off but it was not religious. It was a way of dressing only. Anyway I have tried to word this in a reasonably nice way but I may be crucified or stoned over it. Well at least there’s a choice there. So go for it and lay it on me you good religious folk. Heaven can wait!!.

    • Terry says:

      03:20pm | 18/02/10

      Imran, in all societies freedom operates within boundaries and multiculturalism doesn’t stretch as far as to include tribal cultures from Saudi Arabia and Northern Pakistan thank you very much.

    • Sam says:

      01:44pm | 18/02/10

      @Timmo, you’ve tried to be reasonable and that’s a credit to you. I also don’t like exclusive communities being exclusive. It rubs people the wrong way doesn’t it? But apparently this is the implication of a “free society”. I wouldn’t want to be forced to conform to one person’s standard. So is Australia a country without enforcible standards (so long as they are not illegal) or is Australia a country with a standard that hasn’t been put into law? I’ll let you ponder that one.

      I (Australian Arab Muslim) for one, could live quite easily in what you refer to as a “western” society… others I think might find it harder. Just beware that there are other exclusive communities too, I mean where do you draw the line? I wouldn’t want to be excluded from going to Chapel St South Yarra unless I was wearing my designer sunglasses! They can be intimidating and alienating, those oversized sunnies. And I wouldn’t want to be barred from a surf beach if I wasn’t showing my arse crack through the top of my board shorts! Where do you draw the line (no pun intended)?

    • Imran says:

      01:25pm | 18/02/10

      Timmo, wearing Burqa doesnt fit only you, because you want to see the shape of their bodies to perve on them. You should not imposes your ideas on the whole western Society. Anyway, Australia is a multicultural society and not a western society anymore. People from other cultures have the right to live the way they want to. If you say Australia is a free society, let it be free, or accept that Australian people are hypocrites.

      Furthermore, why you need to talk with veiled women, what you want to talk about? Off course you want to flirt. Believe me they wont give you a shit.

    • Proud Infidel says:

      11:29am | 18/02/10

      The burqka and many other aspects of religion are absurd. You can cherry pick various parts of these plagiarized fictions, to justify any sort behavior or cultural oppression. I have noticed of late, as the New Atheist movement has got more vocal. The apologists for all monotheistic religions are coming together, trying to find the rational aspects of their various brands of male made constructs, so as to make it relevant in the modern world. Even though most of the rational bits were borrowed from the great philosophies of Plato and Apostle. It’s would be far better to cut out the middlemen just read Philosophy from Thales to the present day. It’s far more interesting and makes a lot more sense. On the positive side, I have read that some estimates now have the number of the Secular, Nonreligious, Agnostic, Atheist at 1.1 billion. Now that makes me a proud infidel.  Good without God.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

    • agblaster says:

      10:09am | 18/02/10

      They came to our country for freedom.

      Complacently enslaved by ignorance of their own tenets, they use that freedom to abuse our tolerance.

      The burka: the cloak of hypocrisy.

    • agblaster says:

      11:11am | 19/02/10

      As Sam can’t be troubled to post without putting words in my mouth and without repeatedly distorting what I actually did say, his points are not worth replying to item by item. If he choose to argue by deceit, he shouldn’t be surprised when people notice and decline the bait.

    • Sam says:

      10:59am | 19/02/10

      @Pete, why do they think life is better here? because they are followers who can’t think for themselves and they heard it on the grape vine. Little did they know that given their level of inflexibility, this country isn’t suitable for them. I don’t know the circumstances of every burqa wearing female! They’re either refugees, or they thought they could make more money here. They never contemplated they would have to change to suit the existing population. It probably never entered their minds (or lack thereof). What the hell is the immigration department doing accepting applications from people who wear burqas in the first place?

      @agblaster, yours are the distorted views. Their use of our freedom comes chronologically after their right to dress as they please has been attacked. They’re not using our freedom to attack us, but to defend themselves. Your post paints them as aggressors armed with ignorance, whereas I believe they are closer to ignorant and uninterested in influencing Australia as a whole (rather - they just want to live their lives and basically be left alone).

      >> “No-one is advancing knowledge of either as a reason for adopting a confronting public practice”

      Your “complacently enslaved by ignorance of their own tenets” implies that only people who value freedom above all else are actually deserving of it, whereas your “western democracy” espouses freedom for all regardless of their level of ignorance, doesn’t it? You simply can’t see that freedom isn’t everyone’s highest priority, especially if you’re coming from a war zone. They came to live and they’re just being themselves. It’s not their fault you find it “confronting”. Go for a walk in the city on a Friday night if you want to see something really “confronting”. It might even be wearing a T-shirt and jeans, does that mean you won’t see it coming? or do you know what to expect?

    • Pete says:

      10:02am | 19/02/10

      Sam, ask the next question then. Why do they think life is better here? Isn’t perhaps that because the orthodox Muslims who love the burqa so much are ruining their lives back in their home countries.

    • agblaster says:

      10:00am | 19/02/10

      Oh, please. They come knowing this was a free, secular, multicultural country, with security, peace, and comparatively speaking no religious intolerance. That they - you - brought with them.

      Constitution? Anthem? Patently false analogy. No-one is advancing knowledge of either as a reason for adopting a confronting public practice.

      Your religion? Your birth? So what. Neither matter of themselves and I don’t care where you were born or whether you worship one God, many, or none.

      Spare us your distortions. Take a proud, truthful, mutually respectful and constructive part in your new country, and rejoice that you are free to say stupid things in public without fear of being blown up, or arrested in the dead hour of the night, never to be seen again.

    • Sam says:

      09:24am | 19/02/10

      >>They came to our country for freedom.

      No, they came for a “better life”. Freedom isn’t what they need. They need security and an opportunity to live in peace and strive for their families’ happiness.

      >> Complacently enslaved by ignorance of their own tenets

      That’s rich. How many Australians are familiar with their constitution or even the words to their own national anthem. Just goes to prove that most Muslims are only muslims by birth and nothing much more than that. I wonder where in Maslow’s needs hierarchy can I find “knowledge of one’s tenets”?

      >> The burka: the cloak of hypocrisy.

      Yeah, reads like a good headline but there is hypocrisy on both sides.

    • agblaster says:

      08:39am | 19/02/10

      Oh please. What tosh. Rahi came to a multi-cultural country by his own choice. It’s his responsibilty.

      Raised his voice did he, against untruth, violence and oppression? And so he jolly well should. But loud enough to be heard where? Rahi should consider how fortunate he is to have chosen a new home where he is able to repeatedly sneer at his countrymen without fear. 

      As for “national dress”, what total humbug.  Some proclaim it as an act of faith, yet others as a requirement of doctrine. Some would have you believe it a simple matter of personal choice. Like plural marriage, perhaps? If any one of these was the truth,  there’d be burkas in vast profusion every day in every major city in the land. Not in my capital, son. 

      Burka legal? Of course its legal. Who said it wasn’t? Not me, as Rahi tried to imply. Even if it was merely a matter of personal choice (highly unlikely, given the variety and vehemence of claimed reasons) it would still represent another darker issue: an imposition upon the freedom and independence of adult women. A veritable cloak of hypocrisy, as Rahi’s own remarks show.  Won’t understand? We understand all too well.

      Rahi could have chosen to post with reason. Instead he chose deliberate distortion and increasingly offensive remarks, personal and directed at his new country and countrymen. An honest man would have more self-respect than to stoop to such tricks.  And might have earned the respect of his new countrymen along the way. 

      Let’s be very clear here: Rahi is part of the problem and on track to make it worse,  by his patent untruth, insult, evasion and hypocrisy.

    • John says:

      08:18am | 19/02/10

      Rahi, ah, ah, you are a true neo-liberal disguised in Muslim’s garbs, a true product of the European enlightenment. Congratulations!

    • Rahi says:

      02:05am | 19/02/10

      Cuppa, what is your definition of assimilation? Do you mean that Muslim women should walk like nude, the way some shameless people do or should they lay on nude beaches? Does assimilation mean drinking alcohol in pubs throughout the night? Well, I dont think this is ever going to happen. Muslim women have dignity and they respect their body. Their body is not for exibition. Do you know alcohol is a big problem is Australian society. Lots of crimes are happening because of alcohol, even government is thinking to increase the legal age limit for alcohol consumption. I do not think that muslims are going to accept the way of life what they believe is wrong and against their faith.  Then what do you think is the solution for a peaceful life for everyone. The only solution I think is let everyone live in peace. Be friends , but dont interfere with other’s personal beliefs and their lifestyles. You live the way you think is the best and let others live the way they think is the best. That is the only solution for a peaceful life.

      Agblaster, I come from a very multicultural country. I came here because I was invited here by the Australian goverment, because the government believed that some Australian people are good for nothing and they have no education and qualification to do some jobs. I am helping Australia to compete with the world. If people like me would not be here, I am not sure where this society will go.  You have earned great respect from me, good for nothing. What do you want to say by giving an example of a rapist like Skaf or ignorant like Hilali. I have raised my voice many times during that period. One question before I go.. Why rapist like Skaf who somehow comes from Muslim community gets 55 years sentence but not other rapists from other community… Is this your fairness?? or prejudice against a particular community?

      John, our understanding of freedom is based on dignity and quality of life, freedom to wear anything the people like, that most of you people wont understand. I have wrote most about it somewhere on this site. Search by yourself.

    • agblaster says:

      05:11pm | 18/02/10

      Rahi chose to come and make a life in a tolerant, free country but he has a serious problem grasping the idea that tolerance and respect are both two-way obligations. 

      He’d rather try and put words in my mouth and sneer at our country. What a hypocrite. What a surprise.

      Respect doesn’t come as a right, and it doesn’t come in the shopping bag with the snazzy national dress.  Respect has to be earned. 

      Best Rahi stops whingeing and gets on with it.

    • John says:

      02:08pm | 18/02/10

      Rabi, how can you say that these women are free if the burqa stop them from becoming active, financially independent citizens. I can see little dignity in being erased from the society in which you live.

      Can you please perhaps explain further your understanding of freedom and dignity?

    • Rahi says:

      01:38pm | 18/02/10

      agblaster, they came to this country as skilled people, because you need them as many Australians have no skills for the jobs they are doing.
      They were free in their own country, they feel like they are enslaved here and that they cant even exercise their basic human right to dress their traditional dress.

    • Cuppa says:

      01:28pm | 18/02/10

      The burka is foreign & alien & it represents a religion(& a minority) that is causing nothing but problems in Australia.They live in their enclaves & show contempt for Australia & its culture, but then people like you Rahi have the gall to say we make immigrants life hell.You are kidding. You are being judged by your actions so deal with it.Had muslims assimilated & shown respect like other migrants many Australians wouldnt look at you with distrust & loathing.I think the very fact that we need a middle eastern crime squad to deal with the crimes of a single minority says a lot about the mentality you are defending.

    • agblaster says:

      01:24pm | 18/02/10

      You know nothing about me or how tolerant I am, Rahi.  Freedom is a two-way obligation. So is tolerance.  You’re living in a free, prosperous, peaceful and law abiding country. 

      Where was your voice heard in the community when Sheik Halali was ranting away? Where was your voice heard when the Skafs were running rampant? Where was your voice heard when the 5 young Sydney hoodlums were busy plotting to blow people up?  http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/15/2819965.htm

      Living in fear? What nonsense. You’re a hypocrite, Rahi.  Respect your country and exercise tolerance and respect towards *all* your countrymen.

    • Rahi says:

      01:00pm | 18/02/10

      agblaster, you are no tolerant. Because of your type of guys, migrants’s life has become hell. They are living in fear. Burqa symbolises women’s dignity and freedom, noone can take their dignity off from them by taking their cloths off and it is lawful.

    • Sam says:

      09:01am | 18/02/10

      Some people want to design Australia for themselves and people like them.
      Some people want to design Australia as a model for the future of the whole world.

      I’m in the 2nd group, although I share some concerns with the 1st group. I don’t want uncontrolled immigration, and I want new comers to integrate (NOT assimilate). The burqa should be subject to the same security concerns that apply to motorcycle helmets in banks, but there should be no reason why somebody can’t wear a batman costume on the streets or at shopping centres.

      Finally, it’s about bloody time the Australian government invested in educating its population about issues that can lead to racist misconceptions. Spend a couple of million dollars telling people that the burqa is “her personal choice” rather than let these matters fester only so they can be manipulated come election time.

    • Imran says:

      07:38pm | 17/02/10

      It is strange that the people who are discussing here about veil/burqa actually dont use them. They are just trying to force thier own opinion on others. Have they invited any Muslim woman here who uses Burqa to find out that she like wearing it or not? Have they asked Muslim women whether they have been forced to wear veils/burqa. Most Muslim women use veils by her own will. Only 2% might use veil just to please her husband. In Muslim society Veil is sybolised as a dress of respect and women’s right. And lots of women do not use any veil at all.

      My point is that who are we to decide what Muslim women should dress. Its their life, let them make their own decision, do not interfere with their right and please stop being hypocrite.

    • Molly says:

      07:09pm | 17/02/10

      I have many Muslim friends so please no offense intended. I have never gotten so scared in my life as I did at an Australia Post once. I was patiently waiting in line when I turned because I felt someone was behind me only to scream in fear when I saw what looked like an all black ghost. Sincere fear, not at the poor woman but at the fact that I was in my own little world and turning to face a presence behind me that had no eyes visible - a complete black head to toe ghost outfit - scared the living daylights out of me. If we go to their country we are expected to wear what they wear. It seems only fair that if they choose to live in another country they wear the clothing of the people there? You don’t see other nationalities running around in their national costumes, demanding to wear them. And to inflict this on young girls I believe is child abuse. In 40+ heat I have seen young girls being told off by their mothers for trying to remove some of the layering. Let’s be sensible is all.

    • Dan says:

      09:28am | 19/02/10

      I honestly can’t believe that you would actually scream in fright because you saw someone wearing a burkah. But that said, the issue is should the government ban particular clother? No matter what one may think of it, I would hate to live in a country where the government tells people what or what not to wear.

    • Sam says:

      09:07am | 19/02/10

      @Molly, I wasn’t implying you don’t have “morals”. I was merely enquiring whether you are in favour of an “enforced dress code” under any circumstances? And if so, under which circumstances would you consider it reasonable?

      We all know the motorcycle helmet in the bank scenario and some of us understand that the burqa is a security concern for those overly precious banks… but are you in favour of banning the burqa from Australian land altogether regardless whether it’s a matter of choice for the woman involved? Would you appreciate being told that nothing other than a g-string only is suitable for the beaches of Rio if you should happen to visit there one day? Would you insist that your freedom isn’t compromised or would you be happy to conform in that situation? That’s what I was getting at, nothing about your morals dear.

    • Molly says:

      06:45am | 19/02/10

      Rahi - I was scared because I cannot see who/what was behind me. As I said, I have Muslim friends and have read the Qur’an so it isn’t lack of education (I was curious and didn’t want to be an ignorant westerner). It could be any nationality but dressed head to toe in all black, with not so much as eyes visible, freaks me out. Especially in my own country where I was born. Do I not have a right to know who is behind me when I go to pay a bill? If I must remove my motor bike helmet before entering a premise, so should they.
      As for bikini’s that is just poor parenting if a pre-pubescent girl is allowed to wear one. Seeing as so many men can’t keep their pants on that is just begging paedophiles to come and play. And as for your colour remark - parenting and morals have nothing to do with skin colour. No where in the Qur’an does it stipulate that young girls be made to dress with only their eyes showing. Seriously, have you worn the full outfit in plus 40 degrees before you so eagerly defend this? I have tried on one of my friend’s outfits and it is heavy and hot. She wears it only at family gatherings but wears western clothing with a scarf at all other times. I was also taught by an Imam that girls need only be fully covered once they hit puberty.
      Sam - I dress sensibly and no I don’t wear a g-string even on beaches here in Australia where it is common. Nor do I sunbathe topless as many fellow Australians do. But I was raised with different morals. What I object to is not being able to see any body part on a person that is standing so close to me. I have no objection to the ladies wearing sensible clothing and covering themselves - hair included if this offends their sensibilities. Old European women and even the nuns cover their hair to this day.

    • Sam says:

      08:16am | 18/02/10

      Molly, do you think you “should be forced” to wear a g-string and nothing else when visiting a beach in Rio?

    • Rahi says:

      12:19am | 18/02/10

      Molly, Child abuse is to teach them how to wear bikiny. I have seen many non colour parents who force their children to wear bikiny. Do they know what they are doing? Why they are taking innocense from kids? Are they trying them to teach that girl’s body have no value, and should be exposed for other people’s pleasure? Shame on them.

    • Rahi says:

      09:41pm | 17/02/10

      Molly, its not that woman’s fault, you was scared because you have not much information about other cultures. Could be the government’s fault by not giving the information to its citizen about other cultures, before inviting them to this country.

    • Saudi Chick says:

      06:40pm | 17/02/10

      It’s funny when some people think they know the “real” Islam more than Muslims themselves. When in fact the Islam they know is the one misrepresented by the media.
      The media just can’t wait for Muslims to do anything wrong, whether it’s really true or not doesn’t matter,  and put it as HEADLINES and relates whatever happened to the religion. I have read so many news about things that supposedly happened in Saudi Arabia (where I come from) that are not even true, they turn any kind of story and twist the facts into a whole new story that will make Saudis and Muslims look like Monsters.
      As a proof, one of the comments above stated:“Why complain about France when the religious police in Saudi or Iran would have women banged up in minutes for not wearing the veil?”
      FYI.. I don’t wear the veil when i’m in Saudi Arabia and the “religious Police” never done anything to me, nor to anyone I know!

      Not all Muslim women who wear niqab or burqa are oppressed or anything near that, in fact MOST of them WANT to wear them, you might not understand why someone would want to do that, but it has something to do with faith and most people wouldn’t understand it.
      However, if a woman was forced to wear the burqa, then you need to know this: It’s not the religion, it’s the traditions.

      In every race, religion, and culture bad things will happen, and in every race, religion and culture there will be some oppressed women, but the difference is, when something is done by Muslims, it gets emphasized and the blame always on the RELIGION.
      e.g. if a non-Muslim man does something bad, then everyone would think he is a bad person and that’s it.
      but if a Muslim man does something bad, then most people would think he’s MUSLIM so he’s bad, his people are bad, his religion is bad, and the WHOLE Muslim nation gets blamed for what he’s done.
      And no one can deny this, after what Bin Laden did, all Muslims around the world suffered from the consequences, stereotyped as terrorists, when 9/11 happened, I was only 12 years old and had no idea what’s going on, and somehow today I get blamed for it and I get called a “terrorist”.

      So maybe people need to back off and give us a break! And stop blaming us for things we had nothing to do with. And stop blaming our religion for what those crazy terrorists do, they don’t represent Islam, they represent TERROR. Simply because Islam is against what they do. I’m Muslim and I know what I’m talking about.

      Good night!

    • Richard says:

      07:15pm | 19/02/10

      Saudi Chick: Burqa wearing adult women who say they like wearing all covering clothes on a hot day have no credibility.

    • Sam says:

      07:53am | 18/02/10

      right on sista… you go girl… (I mean… well done!)

    • Mrniceguy351 says:

      10:28pm | 17/02/10

      I suppose if i was brainwashed since i was 4 years old that wearing a veil is what “good” women do i’d want to wear one too. (If i was a woman)

    • Khalida says:

      10:01pm | 17/02/10

      Its very true Saudi Chick. As a Muslim woman I believe what these people who are deciding about my dress is very wrong and these people are denying my right to dress whatever I like. We never say anything to these people that these people offend us when their girls walk in a near nude state on the street. They also offend Muslim males by exposing something that was supposed to be private.

    • Rahi says:

      09:46pm | 17/02/10

      Well done Saudi Chick… Very true and exactly to the point.

    • mrniceguy351 says:

      03:04pm | 17/02/10

      Some things just belong in the third world…

    • Dave says:

      02:23pm | 17/02/10

      Helen, she sounds a lot more convincing than you and Anna who just seem to mostly rely on imagining spurious “white” sexist motives.

      On this issue you need to look at the bigger context where in some cases it is legal and moral to put limitations on the freedom of religious expression, namely in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

    • Richard Ure says:

      07:16pm | 19/02/10

      Dave

      It’s not just the safety of the rest of us, it’s the safety of the wearer. I have seen a burqa wearer hit by a luggage trolley because her vision was impaired. How common are similar (more serious) accidents? And how can it be in the interests of women to prejudice their ability to move about safely?

      I have seen a 13 year old girl, the daughter of an Iraqi mother trying to enjoy her first vist to Manly beach wearing jeans and a headscarf while “surfing”. She spent quite a lot of the time trying to get the water out of her ears while clutching her scarf so no one “would see her hair”. Luckily none of the other kids was giving her a hard time. I refuse to believe that any kid would go to the beach dressed like that were it not for her mother’s brainwashing that men must not see her hair.

    • Helen says:

      08:49am | 17/02/10

      Oh and great article, Anna. Really excellent!

    • Helen says:

      01:54pm | 17/02/10

      Oh terrific! I’ve got a mansplainer upthread!
      Yeah David, I heard Mona on TSOT the other day, but I disagree with her that wearers of the burqua/niquab should be criminalised, for much the same reasons as Anna. Our Western “solutions” for “helping” these women always seem to include force and coercion.

    • Helen says:

      08:48am | 17/02/10

      Tony Abbott makes a silly comment about women ironing and he’s front page news, but force a woman to wear a large cloth bag over her head and associated cape and you need “education and challenging” but otherwise the Left are just too scared to speak out.

      Ah yes, I love that aspect of antifeminist men opposing all things Muslim because of the oppression!! Besides the hypocrisy of it, it serves as an all-purpose get out jail free card (or should I say, get out of an uncomfortable conversation about male privilege free). “You can’t complain about anything us Western guys do! Because look over there, Burquas!”

    • Dave says:

      12:13pm | 17/02/10

      Helen, I think the link below will broaden your knowledge of this complex issue.

      The Spirit of things ABC Radio National 14/02/2001.

      iMuslim: Mona Eltahawy

      An Egyptian-born Muslim journalist living in New York is one of the new wave of iMuslims who are using the internet to push reform in Islam. Like the “Men in Headscarves” campaign by Iranian men who’ve posted pictures of themselves on the internet, Mona protests the covering of women as a human rights issue. She was recently awarded the Anvil of Freedom Award from the University of Denver for outstanding contributions to the field of journalism. Rachael Kohn interviews her at home in New York.

      http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2010/2814596.htm

    • Rory says:

      08:10pm | 16/02/10

      “European cultural dominance” of ...........Europe.

    • Rahi says:

      05:30pm | 16/02/10

      I have heard lots of arguments here and everyone is trying to prove that they know more about Islam. In fact they are talking what they have heard from Western media. Islam is the religion that definitely advances peace. If we check history, we’ll find that most heineous crimes have been done by non Islamics, whether it is using Atom Bomb on innocent civilians, whether killing of innocents by Hitler or killings million of Iraqis or afghanis in the name of destrying weapons of Mass destructions. Even the propaganda of vilifying Islam by self destructing World Trade Centre and blaming terrorists for that. Once I saw a program on channel 10 that showed clearly that twin towers were demolished by someone else and it was preplanned and it was not what america has showed to the world.

    • Imran Ahmad says:

      09:32pm | 17/02/10

      Proud Infidel, It is no strange that the example you have provided is from Midival history back in 14th century because there is no other example you could find from modern history.  That was the time when people were far from being civilised. Every ruler used to do the same killings to conquer the other disregrad of any religion they belonged to, and that was the trend of that time. There was no Internatioanl law or treaties and no ruler was obliged to follow any law.

      On the contrary, I am talking about modern world where there is establishment of United Nations, most nations are covered by International treaties/laws and obliged to follow them.

      I am just wondering whether Non Muslims still believe that they are living in lawless midival world and they are not obliged to follow any international law.  In other words, you have agreed to my claims and the evidences that I have provided in my last post.

    • Proud Infidel says:

      10:03am | 17/02/10

      Well the history I read seems to tell has a different story.

      Tuesday, May 29, 1453 when the Ottoman Turks conquered the Byzantium capital of Constantinople. The Muslim soldiers slew everyone they met in the streets, men, women, and children without discrimination. The blood ran in rivers down the steep streets from the heights of Petra toward the Golden Horn. When the slaughter and the pillaging was over, the Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II ordered an Islamic scholar to mount the high pulpit of Hagia Sophia, the great cathedral of Eastern Christianity, and declare that there was no God but Allah and that Muhammad was his prophet. The magnificent cathedral was transformed into a mosque; hundreds of other churches within Constantinople suffered the same fate. Thousands of Christians were murdered or suppressed to the status of dhimmis; 50,000 women and children were hauled off as slaves.

      They many more accounts, untold millions of Hindus were killed or taken slaves from the Muslim invasion in the 12th Century. Some estimates have the Hindu population decreasing by 80 million. More recently the Armenian Genocide estimates of a million people killed. There are many other examples of Islamic peace.

      Please people read the history!

    • Shama says:

      05:04pm | 16/02/10

      I wish someone was standing up for Muslim women who do not want to wear the veil; it’s a far harder task than some woman taking to the veil.  I think one has to acknowledge the fact that in Western societies the choice of dress can be very wide-even if there is personal disapproval of WAGS for e.g. it remains their right to wear what they wish to wear - basically you can dress like a tart without being hounded or being treated violently for it - much like the men in singlets and inappropriate shorts. I am afraid this is not the case with Islamic societies and the public space afforded to a woman remains limited.  So yes western societies are uncomfortable with the veil but rightly so because it is at odds with some of its fundamental principles.  Further if anyone within a Western society asked a woman to take the veil there would be an outcry from feminists (we know for e.g what the reaction is to Tony asking women to be virginal) - why then are they soft pedalling the issue when it comes to the Muslim veil?  Having grown up in a culture where one had to be covered up all the time let me state that - no matter what they say - if given a free choice, few women would adopt the veil or headscarf.  As headstrong young girls the need to cover up was misery and made one conscious of being female all the time - we felt that if men were so tempted perhaps it was they who needed to don the full burqa.  Social compulsions play a great role and the approval given to being a “good girl” may make you come to believe that it is your choice. 

      Also to be frank while bashing white men is fashionable, in many aspects regarding women’s emancipation they are more liberal than in many parts of the world. I think the entitlement to gaze remark is way off.
       
      Re France banning the burqa, much of France’s rigidity stems from the formation of the Republic. Much attention is paid to the burqa ban but historically the amalgamation of France’s varying provinces, the insistence on being “French” have been guided by the same principle. Surely they retain the right to decide the kind of nation they wish to be?

    • rahi says:

      05:00pm | 16/02/10

      All these talks are hypocracy. The fact is, doesnt matter what anyone says, every person has the right to wear what they like and no one has the right to say anything about it. Exactly like western women have the right to be nude.

    • Imran Ahmad says:

      04:01pm | 16/02/10

      Is it about the fear or an example how hypocrite we are. At one hand we say that we are a democratic society and everyone has the right to dress the way they want to. It is really hard to believe the age and time we are living in. There was a time when nudity was considered a bad and immoral thing. Now we appreciate nudity and do not like people who wear full dresses.

      Why dont we think that the way anyone want to dress is their fundamental right. Even for a moment we consider banning Burqa a right thing to do, do we think that this would solve anything? This would only be an step forward toward oppressing Muslim women. This would only force them to stay at home all the time and the chances of repurcussions would be very high because no one likes the feeling of being jailed.

      Why not we think from their point of view? When these Muslim families go out, they could be brothers and sisters, fathers and daughters or even family friends. Do we know how do they feel when they come across to a 90% nude women (in bikini or in any revealing dress)? They feel very embarressed & offended and cant even look into the eyes of each other. But later they think” its others life, what can we do. Let them live their lives, its our life we need to worry about.” They do not create any trouble for that. I can understand that there are lots of differences in western and eastern cultures. Here indecent behaviour between father and daughter, brother and sister or mother and son is not considered a big deal and we see this everywhere.  I met many people who say they have been sexually abused by their relatives when they were kids. However, for Muslims it is hard even to imagine this. Chastity and morality is very important to them.

      The question is that, if the call for this type of ban would help anyone? I do not think so. Muslims would only think that its the hate of west against Islam. Is it not true?

    • Bent says:

      01:00am | 16/02/10

      “One problem these men have with the Islamic veil, even if they don’t realise it, is that it challenges their assumed entitlement to gaze upon women’s bodies”

      Wow… this totally ruins your article. I was actually agreeing with the majority of what you had written, but this little gem comes out of no where. It is all well and good that you are writing about feminist issues, but can you try and do it without painting all men with the same brush? I think you will probably find that there are about as many men who object to a full veil on the basis that they can’t ‘perv’ on these women, as there are full veil wearers in France.

      “However, it is clear, from discussions I’ve had over the years, that it is often white men, who are not exactly torch bearers for the gender equity movement, who object the most vehemently to a woman who removes herself from their gaze.”

      Yes, this is definitely the issue at hand. Let us talk about those men who object so vehemently to a veil because now it is even more difficult for them to strip a woman naked with their eyes… heck, I guess I didn’t even realise I had objections to a veil based on this until you pointed it out! (oh, but you did say I wouldn’t have realised it didn’t you)

      Honestly, please don’t ruin what is for the most part a good article on a very topical issue, by not being able to control your desire to stick it to the ‘white man’. Perhaps next time, you can write two versions of the article, one for ‘The Punch’, and another one for your private blog with the extra pieces of information garnered from ‘discussions (you’ve) had over the years’ with the other members of ‘The Female Eunuch’ fan club.

    • Anna Greer says:

      08:32am | 16/02/10

      Yes I regret that that’s how it came across. I addressed it further up the thread:

      Admittedly that could have been elucidated a bit better. It’s an attitude I have come across on the more extreme end of the argument. It wasn’t a general comment about all men who object to Islamic coverings but I can see that it was received that way.

    • Anonymous says:

      12:08am | 16/02/10

      Its not upto me, i dont want to tell people what to do, i dont want to vote, i dont want to be oppressed or repressed, it takes me articles like this to realise i dont want to talk about anyone, nor do i want anyone to talk about me. I just want to live my life and not offer any opinion nor listen to any opinion. I want to cruise through life working hard, eating well and live according to the universal truth of treating others like how i would be expected to be treated. I have noticed that if i tell someone how to live they will do the exact opposite. Give someone the freedom to make an informed decision and usually they will choose the path of least resistance. No argument is ever 100% true, its usually somewhere in the middle. All these doom sayers have an ulterior motive. If you want to live your life according to what you believe to be right, go ahead, your choice, but please dont be offended when i act apathetic, because honestly you are not worth worrying about. You are not god, you are not even close to god, and thank god, nor am i. Spew forth your vitriol, and busy yourself with what is wrong and right, i’ll be in the background, in the pub supporting all regardless of what you believe. No right, No wrong, Just merry. Nihilism is not believing in nothing, it is the absence of belief.

    • Sam says:

      10:51pm | 15/02/10

      For Ms Greer: I’m impressed by your effort to understand. Thank you.

      For the mediocre majority (yes, probably includes you too):
      Attacking the burqa is the weakest of attacks on Islam. Why don’t you get serious and attack Islam for it’s vilification of Jews in particular and non-Muslims in general. That would be justified and beneficial to our national harmony, and potentially international peace. If you do it right, you might even get an official revision of Islamist theology. Don’t think you can chip away at the edges of Islam without addressing the major issues, and don’t think you’re gonna influence anything by leading with “women’s rights”. I mean seriously, take the bull by the horns or go home.

    • imran says:

      10:26pm | 17/02/10

      Sam, Islam considers Jesus as a messenger of God and we highly respect him similar like Mohammad. Jesus was also sent by God to spread the message of love and truth. Some people made him the son of God despite knowing that God is not something physical like us. He doesnt need a son to be a God. To have a son we do intercourse with female. God is far from these needs as he has created us. He dosnt need us, we need him.

    • Sam says:

      06:47pm | 17/02/10

      @Imran, I’m willing to let you keep your beliefs intact if you promise me to speak up whenever you hear any antisemitism in your particular community. You can’t deny that some Muslims give the rest of us (yes, I’m Muslim) a bad name and they must not be allowed to spew forth their irrational hatred without being rebuked whenever they do it. Apart from that let’s agree to disagree on what Islam is actually about, since I believe it’s main objective is to mitigate the effect of deifing Jesus which set a dangerous precedent for humans believing they can become God. Anyway, pray for me, I need it. No hard feelings.

    • Proud Infidel says:

      06:15pm | 17/02/10

      Sam@ Here is quote for you. He was a wise man who invented beer - Plato 428–427 BC. Cheers and enjoy!

    • Proud Infidel says:

      06:07pm | 17/02/10

      @Imran Ahmad, I know its hard with such a narrow view of the world, however a trip to wikipedia will may give you a good understanding of Burton. One of his best-known achievements include travelling in disguise to Mecca in the 1800’s, The Book of One Thousand Nights and A Night, an unexpurgated translation of One Thousand and One Nights (also commonly called The Arabian Nights in English. He was English explorer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, ethnologist, linguist, poet, hypnotist, fencer and diplomat. Maybe you should read some his books. I have seen Mecca myself from a distance, however but being a Proud Infidel I could not go for a visit. Peace!

    • Imran Ahmad says:

      03:18pm | 17/02/10

      Proud Infidel, your Sir Richard Francis burton did not read anything but boasted. He did not read Qoran. One thing is must here that I need to say, people must have brain to understand Qoran. The easy thing is go through the following website first…...this might help you understanding Islam from Scientific point of view, if you are a person of Science…

      http://www.harnyahya.com

    • Imran says:

      03:07pm | 17/02/10

      Sam, further to my discussion, this is exactly what non muslims do, claiming something that is not true without any evidence. No one is stupid sam. People would need evidence before they believe on anything you say. You need to prove that Koran is written by humans. Whereas I can prove Bible has been corrupted by humans that once was a book of God. You ‘ll find this when you read Bible, you’ll find that many chapters of Bible contradict each other. When you read old testament , you’ll find its similar like Qoran however new testaments are just opposite to that. Old testament is God’s word and new testaments are created by humans. Another evidence I can give you is that, in Qoran there has been no change at all even just by a dot. Qoran is exactly the same the way it was at the time of revelation by Angel Gabriel and this is because God has promised to protect Qoran after seeing corruptions with His previous books. The fact is that HE has done it, despite many efforts have been done by jews and others to corrupt it. You may find some other Qorans published by Jews in the book store but for Muslims it is easy to find because they have memorised the whole Qoran and they’ll find any changes easily.

      Furthermore, I am leaving a website for you to find more information about Islam before you dare to discuss about it….

      http://www.harunyahya.com

    • Imran says:

      02:46pm | 17/02/10

      Sam, I am sorry to say that Islam is only one in this world, and definitely you have not read Quran. You are talking things that you might have heard from somewhere. If Quran was written by humans you would find lots of inconsistencies in that. If you would read Quran, definitely you would find many facts mentioned there that present days Science has acknowledged. There are lots of facts mentioned in Quran that has been supported by scientific researches of modern Science. It needs a brain to find the truth and people whoms daily life is indulged in alcohol have not got any capacity to do that. It needs logical thinking to find out the truth.  Without saying any further I am leaving a website that I believe is best to find out the facts about Islam from Scientific point of view….

      http://www.harunyahya.com

    • Sam says:

      12:59pm | 17/02/10

      @Imran, sorry, but you must be referring to a different Islam than the one I was born into and studied. How can you deny that the Mumbai massacre was not aimed at Jews and other non-Muslims, and that it was motivated by Muslim fanaticism?

      Perhaps it is time for a new version of Islam that prioritises humanity over the integrity of a plagiarised document anyway. Don’t give me that angel Gibreel in a cave talking to an illiterate man fairytale. It was written by human beings, and much of it is sourced from pre-existing documents, and further amended when Muhammad was rejected as the Jewish Messiah. When will you people come out of the darkness and into the 21st century, or at least acknowledge the copyright infringement.

      I’m done with living in the past, and many Muslims are too. It only costs me more heartache to try to relate to people like you. I’ve almost lost faith in what Islam is supposed to stand for, and I’m heading to the pub, I could use a beer (and there’s nothing wrong with that whether the God likes it or not).

      @Proud Infidel, here’s to worshipping ourselves. Cheers.

    • Proud Infidel says:

      11:26am | 17/02/10

      Dan, a little quote for you. “The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.” Sir Richard Francis Burton

    • Dan says:

      09:00pm | 16/02/10

      No, Proud Infidel, I can win the debate. I just believe in calling it when I see it.

      Sam, I’m not even going to bother responding to your nonsence.

    • Imran says:

      04:53pm | 16/02/10

      Sam, islam does not atack jews or anyone else, it attacks wrongdoers disregard of any group or religion. It attacks hypocrites, I am sure you know what does it mean. Islam is not something that can be revised as christians revise their Bible and now Bible says the things right that the original Bible used to say wrong.

    • Sam says:

      11:04am | 16/02/10

      @Dan, you’re right, I’m racist. I despise all races including my own. I despise everyone who “identifies” with a group whose constituents share little more than hair colour, or skin colour, or even a language or religion. Groups of people are not people to me, they are cattle that need to be herded and branded. And nothing sickens me more than listening to one idiotic group having a go at another bunch of morons. This is the sickness that democracy creates. People start think that the validity of their argument depends on how many people agree with you. There is no logic, there is no right or wrong, no better or worse, no moral or immoral, no principles, not even Australian and un-Australian… it’s always idiotic majority vs moronic minority….

      If you read above, I’ve actually defended Islam today. It doesn’t matter what you say, I’ll always take the opposing view just to show you that there are 2 sides to every coin, and off-course both of those sides are completely wrong on their own.

    • Proud Infidel says:

      10:48am | 16/02/10

      When you can’t win the debate play the racist card. Sad!

    • Dan says:

      06:38am | 16/02/10

      Sam, for all your attacks on Islam, it would help if you actually did some research. But that would be too challenging for you. As for national harmony, I don’t know, but I had thought racists like you were threatening it!  International peace? Islam is threatening it? LOL. You’re such a fool! Do some research and stop being a racist!!!

    • Michelle says:

      10:50pm | 15/02/10

      Wafa Sultan does a half-decent impersonation of a white man:

      “When I first immigrated to the US, I learned to my dismay that Islam has been labeled by many as “a religion of peace.” But for me, as a Syrian who grew up in Islamic country, a set of beliefs that insists that women are wicked is an evil set of belief…

      People who avoid facing the gloomy facts regarding Islam, have no moral authority to admonish liberated Arabs like me. Those who cannot confront Islamic doctrine boldly and will not allow themselves to question openly dreadful components of Islam are on the wrong side of this conflict.”

      http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/09/problems-in-liberating-islam.php

      That puts you, Anna Greer, on the wrong side of this conflict for failing to ponder the “dreadful components of Islam” that are the foundation of msyognist burkas and so on.

    • Dan says:

      08:53pm | 16/02/10

      John, if you are going to measure Islam by Saudi Arabia, then you may as well measure Christianity by the KKK! Spend time in Indonesia or Egypt or Jordan or Brunei. I could spend time in the American deep South and come out with a negative view of Christianity, but then I know that the deep south doesn’t automatically represent Christianity. The same goes for Saudi Arabia and Islam.

      As for Dawkins and Hitchens, both of whom are ignorant extremists, why should I take any dose of them? They are morally and intellectually bankrupt buffoon! No wonder you like them!

    • Imran Ahmad says:

      05:11pm | 16/02/10

      MItchelle, in fact the problem is Arab. All crimes started from there. Most of them pretend to be Islamic but they are not. They do not know the meaning of Islam. Terrorism and all these negative things that has nothing to do with Islam has been made synonym of Islam. If any one wants to see Islam in practice, should go to asian countries except Pakistan.

    • John says:

      10:18am | 16/02/10

      Well Dan, my two years in Saudi Arabia cured me of any consideration I had for Islam.  Wafa Sultan is under a threat violent for position on Islam. My suggestion is you take a good dose of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens before going to bed. You may have different outlook in the morning. On positive note, I did meet good people there. Which just proves that good people follow bad religions.

    • Dan says:

      06:35am | 16/02/10

      Before you attack Islam, Michelle, do your research. Quoting people like Wafa Sultan is like quoting David Irving in regards to The Holocaust. She’s an ignorant Islamophobe who wouldn’t know the first thing about the so-called “dreadful components of Islam”. She’s upset that people have labelled Islam a religion of peace. Poor baby. Well, it is.

    • Jack says:

      09:53pm | 15/02/10

      In my secular, white, male opinion, there is nothing wrong with either the top right or bottom left of those four pictures. Those styles of headscarf that leave most/all of the face exposed while covering the hair and neck are a perfect compromise between modesty and practicality, they allow those who wear them to both express their faith and communicate easily and naturally with the wider public. The burqa/niqab is another story altogether, and the wearing of such face-covering garments should not be allowed, at least in such settings where face to face communication is important (eg banks, school classrooms).

    • Dan says:

      09:12pm | 15/02/10

      Alot of people have problems with the burkah, but at the end of the day it’s about tolerance and choice. Just as we don’t want to force women to wear the burkah, we shouldn’t force them to not wear it. There is no difference between the two. We need to learn to be tolerant and respectful of difference, and accept that some women will wear clothes that we might be less than delighted with. Talk about fines and banning the burkah is incredibly intolerant and in a liberal secular democracy, I think it’s unacceptable. If people don’t like it, that’s their problem, but in no way should the government step in and prevent women from wearing it.

    • Cly says:

      07:47pm | 15/02/10

      How about we get rid of mythical sky fairies from the Bronze Age already?

    • Peter says:

      07:23pm | 15/02/10

      Can I walk down the street with a ski mask on covering my entire face except eyes? How about a scarf wrapped around my head to only expose my eyes?

      No I can’t. Shops will make me remove it before entering.

      People wearing the burka in Australia or other western countries should be treated the same as me. I cannot even wear a motorbike helmet into stores.

      End of story. If the Burka is to be accepted in western society then the ability for anyone of any religion to go about their daily business covered head to toe will also have to be accepted.

    • GO JOHNNY GO.I love it. says:

      07:17pm | 15/02/10

      AS JOHN HOWARD SAID per se,
      Mainsteam muslims wanting to live in Austrlai by Sharia Law were told by (to pi** Off ) by Little Johnny H and:
      Hinted that some radical cleric could be asked to leave the country if they did not except that Australia was a secular state and its law were made by Parliament.  If those are not your values, if you want a count that has Sharia Law then Australia is not for you.

    • Plum says:

      05:41pm | 15/02/10

      Banning the burka is a misdirected effort. I think they should fine the male ‘heads of household’ whose women wear the burka.  Then you’d be tackling the problem at it’s root - male enforcers. Or sometimes, older women enforcers!

      I know there’ll probably now be comments from Muslim women who say they choose to wear a headscarf.  Choosing to wear a headscarf is very different from wearing something that covers you head to toe.  If it wasn’t for the more indirect pressures of social group expectation I bet few of the women wearing the burqa would choose it! 

      I grew up in a small town in Malaysia, which is a moderate Muslim country. There the women wear baju kurung and kebaya, with headscarves which cover the hair without obscuring the face.  It’s actually an attractive, fashionable way of dressing and none of those women I grew up around could be described as repressed! But there is currently an influx of black-burqa wearing women from Saudi Arabia on holiday with, yes, male escorts in tight t-shirts and jeans and bling [very tight gear and very 80s bling].  I’m worried about the effect this is having on the moderate majority. In some of the smaller towns and villages you can see social pressure in action - covering your hair is about personal choice. But a friend of mine in school was forced into wearing a headscarf because she was the ONLY girl in school who wasn’t, and her male AND female religious teachers took to pulling her aside to lecture her on the merits of covering her hair.  That girl opted for the scarf in the end NOT due to choice, but due to social pressure.

    • The Cricket says:

      05:16pm | 15/02/10

      Anna,
      I take it you did cultural studies at university? The signs are all there.
      Hatred of men? Check. Willingness to blame white people for all the world’s ills? Check. Association of Islam with victimhood? Check.
      Like others on this thread, I found this piece ridiculous for a whole variety of reasons.
      For example, your clear racial bias is on display when you write France’s burqua ban is “more about making white people feel more comfortable”. So not black people, Anna? Asians? I think you’ll find the burqua is considered highly offensive by all sorts of people, from a variety of backgrounds, including plenty of Muslims, as you point out yourself.
      The key issue is that in western society, covering the face to hide identity is culturally inappropriate. It makes people highly uncomfortable. It’s nothing to do with men wanting to perve on women’s bodies (another simply ludicrous comment that again betrays your prejudices). Just as boardies and a tank top are culturally insensitive in many Muslim countries, a burque is highly culturally inappropriate in countries like Australia. It does nothing to help Muslims intergrate with their fellow citizens when they voluntarily (or not) put up a physical barrier that prevents others around them knowing who they are. Instead it creates fear and suspicion. You can hardly offer a friendly smile to someone whose face is covered and who resembled Darth Vadar.
      I was also interested that you expressed outrage at countries like France and Italy showing a “chest-puffing display of European cultural dominance”. Last time I checked an atlas, they were European countries. What other sort of culture should they display?

    • Sam says:

      07:46am | 19/02/10

      @susia bright,

      “if it wasn’t for European ingenuity we wouldn’t have the freaking internet”

      And here are the disappointing results of our education system.

      Dear susia, It is easy to assume that those who walk with their noses pointed at the sky are the leaders of thought, but unfortunately history doesn’t support that hypothesis. There have been many contributions that have led to what you perceive as “European ingenuity”, and the Europeans have taught and learnt from the rest of the world on many occasions. I’m not going to burst your bubble entirely, but I urge you to be open to the idea that from time to time, ingenuity appears all over the place. You’d be surprised how much of it came out of the minds of social hermits who wouldn’t identify with anything that is exclusively “European”.

      In other words, it is foolish to credit the maker of the air conditioned car with fuel injection and cruise control and sat nav ... without crediting the inventor of the wheel. All cultures have chipped in with something significant. Idolising Europeans will only lead to more of the fascism that plagued the first half of the 20th century. No doubt there are some enlightened Europeans, but overall Europe is as much a mediocre salad as anywhere else.

    • susia bright says:

      12:40am | 16/02/10

      Yes I thought the same
      “The burqa ban is just one of a series of volleys fired in a chest-puffing display of European cultural dominance”...
      So now European countries must deny their European culture, and yes, Cricket, what culture should they be displaying ? If it wasn’t for European ingenuity we wouldn’t have the freaking internet and you wouldn’t have anywhere to spout this dribble. So let’s raise our glasses to European culture, because it is exactly the culture that gave you the freedom to be able to express your unique views.

    • Keybored says:

      03:42pm | 15/02/10

      I’d like to know where you sourced the information about the woman in Cronulla who had her hijab ripped off. I’ve studied the Cronulla protest extensively and I never saw or heard anything about a woman being attacked.

    • PkrPlyr says:

      03:23pm | 15/02/10

      Yes Anna, you went too far with the ‘entitlement to gaze’ comment. This silly remark ruined what could’ve been a reasonably good article on an interesting topic. (Although I think even you now probably realise it was a stupid thing to say…hmmm?)

    • Anna Greer says:

      06:58am | 16/02/10

      Admittedly that could have been elucidated a bit better. It’s an attitude I have come across on the more extreme end of the argument. It wasn’t a general comment about all men who object to Islamic coverings but I can see that it was received that way.

    • concern says:

      02:55pm | 15/02/10

      For many women, wearing a veil is a choice. For western women, so is wearing whatever they want. However, while we are sitting here and thinking about and even debating ‘vilifying’ those that wear the burqa or niqab, western girls are being vilified (without their consent) on Facebook, in groups such as ‘girls who are marriage material’. This group is run by an islamic male, and he features pictures of girls in tight revealing clothing which he and his friends criticise. some of these comments mock the girls and others call for sheik elhilaly to comment about them. I admit that some of the photos are disgusting and hint to the ugliness of being scantily clad and unladylike, but when those girls are not allowed to exercise their freedoms and their request to remove their personal pictures are not answered then we have a problem But an ever bigger problem is that the attitudes expressed in the comments are akin to the attitudes of the males who committed the gang rapes almost ten years ago - and i think its about time we turn to these attitudes of young muslim males before we move onto the driving forces of muslim females.

    • Jesse says:

      02:31pm | 15/02/10

      When are the women of Western society ever going to stand up and liberate their sisters within Islam?

      Last time I checked, 50% of the world was female.

      If the women of the West banded together, in a unified way (for instance in an organised way such as Obama’s campaign just as a model) surely they would be able to better educate women in Islamic countries and from Islamic cultures.

      Instead, we have Islamic women who are indoctrinated from a very young age into accepting veiling. Even many very smart and educated women still think veiling is important, but they are still the product of indoctrination.

      All well and good. But if live in Australia, or a Western European country. You must live within that culture.

      I agreed with the point that I think Islam finds it very hard to accept being a minority culture within Western countries.

    • Ian Matthews says:

      02:19pm | 15/02/10

      Anna Greer: Sydney-based journalist, researcher and online stirrer.

    • Davido says:

      02:11pm | 15/02/10

      I really cant buy that this is a white thing or a man thing.

      It is a cultural thing. And guess what i am not going to apologise for saying I dont like them.

    • AKoiLus says:

      01:40pm | 15/02/10

      Every time I see one of these get-ups in a Western country. I think to myself there goes a modern day ‘slave’, and if her husband wanted to live in a better country then the mud brick cities their used to. Why didn’t they move to Turkey? What are they doing here other then to usurper our health care system bred like fly’s until they democratically elect one of their own. Then take us back in time to enjoy the wonders of Sharia Law. Let’s face it. Islam has nothing to offer Australia by immigrating to the West. Then slander our way of life in the Mosque every Friday night. Are we all on CRACK?
      If France wishes to impose this law good on them, but fine the husband!
      Islam has so many tenants opposing our way of life. One’s that the West fought of centuries to instil into it’s societies. i.e. Judgement by peers. Woman’s rights, Freedom of Speech etc. How can we allow these ‘enemies of civilisation’ live amongst us? Islam’s followers should be not allowed to migrate until it comes into the modern world. With a modern respect for human life. Christianity had to do through Martin Luther, yet here we are in the 21century, and their still practising 14th century values. Why cant we just sanction them? Under their law it’s fine. Encouraged even!

    • Sam says:

      11:29am | 17/02/10

      @FF, point taken, thanks.

    • FF says:

      02:04pm | 16/02/10

      @ Sam.
      Sam, glazing over the problems in Islam today will not make critics shut up, nor will it invoke any sort of admiration for the ardent Muslim apologist who instead of engaging in dialogue brings up Wikipedia articles to back his claims of his idea of how glorious Islam is.
      Yes, Islam did bring rights to women during the time when Westerners were still bathing once a year and treated women as chattel. That is commendable.
      But what year is it today and how far has Muslims today slipped behind? These ‘rights’ ceased to be rights about 50 years ago and instead are being used by politicians and people who call themselves ‘Muslim’ to mislead ignorant, albeit devout Muslim masses to turn a blind eye to the problems arising today due to a hijack of Islamic values and dogma, even to commit violent acts against their own fellow Muslims and other non-Muslims!
      The truth is, many Muslims today refuse to integrate into the society as a whole, cloister in hateful groups and spew vile vitriol against the Western society which many of them actually live within, while enjoying the benefits of a Western lifestyle, a Western system of freedom (which I would agree has its flaws, but still allows them freedom of speech unheard of in Islamic countries today) and that is the most hypocritical of all!
      Granted, there are plenty of wonderful Muslims out there. I have many great, moderate Muslim friends who pray 5 times a day, go friday prayers, avoid alcohol and pork, but are very appreciative of Australia and Australian values.
      Coincidentally they are an educated few hailing from decent, very well-to-do families overseas and migrated to Australia escape the suffocation of lack of freedom to think and speak freely.
      But even they too agree that there is a problem with most Muslim nowadays who do not speak out against injustices committed by Muslims and most turn a blind eye towards these problems, only to rear their angry heads when an ‘attack’ against Islam is perceived.
      Truth is, Islam was a pioneer in women’s rights but then lagged behind when Muslims stopped thinking, stopped caring and stopped practising compassion towards the people around them, instead perceiving themselves as some sort of glorious, untouchable bastion of humankind.
      Other civilisations caught up, surpassed them and what one of my Muslim friends said rang true - the denial of having been left behind and no longer being the ‘greatest’, the ‘strongest’, the most ‘enlightened’ hurt them so bad they recoiled deeper into angst and hatred, this led to a cycle of political and internal upheaval within Muslim societies everywhere, one which till today few have escaped from.
      So instead of defending what was, defend what will be. To me that is the true hallmark of a Muslim who really cares deeply about Islam and Muslims.

    • Sam says:

      08:01am | 16/02/10

      As for “judgement by peers”... yes we had that before you too.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_history#Islamic_law

      The only thing you had before us, is guns, and the history books are full of evidence of your “contribution to civilisation” in the subsequent 3 to 4 centuries.

      No amount of ignorance will rewrite history and paint you as the civilised ones. Wealth gotten through war is not sustainable. Get off your fat arses and work, we’ll see who works the hardest.

    • Sam says:

      07:45am | 16/02/10

      @AKoiLus, so you think you guys are the champions of Women’s rights? You need to read something other than the Woman’s Day. Start with this.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women’s_rights#History

      Islam brought Arab women rights their European counterparts didn’t enjoy for centuries later.

      @Ricky, just because we’re surrounded by ignorant fools who can vote, doesn’t mean anything they say or think is worth jack.
      100% ignorance is all that it is.

    • Ricky says:

      02:15pm | 15/02/10

      Brilliant post.Many people i speak to would agree 100%.

    • AKoiLus says:

      01:53pm | 15/02/10

      BTW Anna how the hell do you think your helping these woman? If you came from anyone of the increasing number of Islamic states you wouldn’t even have a job! If you hate your own people, and white males so much convert. Simple. Oh FYI forget woman’s rights. You’ll have none wink

    • Sean says:

      01:38pm | 15/02/10

      Anna, your reference to the Cronulla riots was quite intriguing of course designed to highlight your own predjudices about young white men

      The Cronulla riots whilst terrible were the result of years of frustration with the treatment of locals especially women by ‘middle eastern’ men. Set off by the bashing of two young lifeguards by ‘men of middle eastern appearance’. This of course has been forgotten by most of the MSM and lefties like yourself as it doesn’t fit into your own bigoted view of things…those damn young white men with their Aussie flags

    • James says:

      03:17pm | 15/02/10

      “dispicable minorities” = racism.

    • Cuppa says:

      02:14pm | 15/02/10

      Very true Sean.But we dont want offend our new Australian minorities do we?Its funny how there wasnt one arrest out of the waves of middle eastern youths involved in the reprisal attacks either isnt it? Its discusting that Australians have to adjust their way of life to suit certain dispicable minorities that show no respect to Australia & its way of life.

    • BD says:

      01:50pm | 15/02/10

      Sadly Sean, it is always ignored in the media. There were horrible cases of young anglo saxon women being verbally abused, and physically threatened at cronulla beach because of THEIR cultural background… This never seems to be reported on however.

    • IMHO says:

      01:30pm | 15/02/10

      I think the burqa/hijab thing is just another example of how religious (read: magical) thinking can totally stuff up your mind, your ability to think clearly.

      Nevertheless, we cannot start banning specific types of dress, in public spaces, even on religious grounds. Where there are specific security requirements, that is a specific concern that a head covering could subvert the security of the general public (eg airports, banks etc) then I support our society’s right to require that they be removed, or the person not be allowed to enter. I also support the right of anyone to have their own dress requirements on their own private property.

      As an aside, we must be careful to distinguish between, racial, cultural, and religious issues. Islam is a religion, practiced across a number of cultures and races. No cultural or religious practice should be above scrutiny. Being ‘offended’ because one’s religious views are being discussed or criticised is not sufficient reason to have those criticisms silenced. Cultures, similarly, are not sacred sets of behaviours and should be dissected vigorously where appropriate.

      Greer, your article is presumptuous, your analysis light weight. It’s what we’ve come to expect from many of the Punch contributors.

    • Jack says:

      01:29pm | 15/02/10

      I’m sorry but i find the burka hideous and alien - and I don’t want to see it in the street, the shops or at the cinema. It has no place in western society what so ever. Why is it in western society that it is the host country who has to do all the adapting and adjusting to other peoples beliefs and superstitions? What happened to immigrants adjusting to our way of life?

    • wk says:

      01:26pm | 15/02/10

      Will there come a day in which western women are free to wear whichever clothing attire they like in islamic countries (referring mostly to those that practice sharia law) without persecution?

    • Mike says:

      01:01pm | 15/02/10

      The bottom line is, that in the west, rightly or wrongly, we relate a burqa, or any other form of muslim dress or look, to terrorism, suppression of free speech and domination of women in society.
      This is something that many middle eastern cultures have bought on themselves by their actions, usually against the innocent.

      If they don’t like it, it is therefore the responsibility of those same cultures to re educate western society that their perception is wrong, and as they say, actions speak louder than words.

    • iansand says:

      12:59pm | 15/02/10

      If the burqua is banned those women who presently are forced to wear it in public will not be allowed out in public at all.  Be careful for what you wish in your pursuit of liberation for others.

    • Australian-Egyptian says:

      05:26am | 16/02/10

      These “grown women” have never been allowed to have an opinion of their own. When their “men” lock them up - no-one will ever know…

    • kel says:

      01:56pm | 15/02/10

      Um, Lachlan, choosing to stay indoors for whatever reason, is not breaking the law…..FORCING someone else to however, is. It’s a pretty simple concept to me. Iansand suggested women who are already wearing the burqua would not be ALLOWED outside if it were made illegal. I’m simply saying in our country, that would & should be illegal.

    • Lachlan says:

      01:38pm | 15/02/10

      @kel What if it is the woman herself? Don’t get me wrong I find the medieval oppression of women practised by SOME Muslims to be abhorrent. And dislike the Buqua based on that. But I also recognise that to force people not to wear it wrong. And if the woman buys into that side of thing she simply won’t leave the house. So what, do we charge her with refusing to walk down the street?

    • kel says:

      01:23pm | 15/02/10

      @ iansand, if a grown woman was denied that basic freedom of going outdoors in a country like Australia, that would surely be a criminal charge for whoever was denying her.

    • Dave says:

      01:14pm | 15/02/10

      They have the option to remove it. It is not too onerous an actually it will good for their health. Vitamin D that we get from the sun is essential to prevent bone disease.

    • Nathan H says:

      12:25pm | 15/02/10

      Stop the presses! We’ve got a new headline:

      Left-wing female columnist blames white men for world’s problems.

      What a historic day for critical thought.

    • Sean says:

      01:24pm | 15/02/10

      LOL, very well put

    • Dave says:

      12:13pm | 15/02/10

      “This belies the true intentions of those calling for a ban – banning the burqa is less about liberating oppressed muslim women and more about making white people feel more comfortable. “

      No Anna, unless you are a mind reader you are just making things up to avoid offending a multicultural minority whose views clash with your liberal beliefs.

      The French government conducted a 6 months nationwide inquiry that received written and oral submission from more than 300 individuals and organizations, many of them Muslims and supportive of the ban.

      At least acknowledge that there is a much greater level of complexities regarding this issue than white paranoia or discomfort, including your own.

    • Jon says:

      12:11pm | 15/02/10

      Islamic veiling or the various types of it, is overt symbol of religiosity with political connotations and has no place in a true evolving Secular Society. The display of any overtly religious symbols should be discouraged. As is the displaying of the swastika is discouraged for legitimate reasons. Muslims should reframe from displaying these symbols in society as sign of their respect for their fellow citizens, many of who find them offensive. The wearing of these symbols has no place in government as it compromises the notion of separation of church and state.

    • Will says:

      12:09pm | 15/02/10

      We live in a free society and people should be able to dress how they like.
      Get over it !

    • John says:

      08:35am | 16/02/10

      You think we live a free society, but we are controlled by many strings. One the most controlling is religion.

    • Bennie says:

      01:21pm | 15/02/10

      I agree.  Making people into criminals for wearing what they want is as bad as forcing people to wear particular clothes in the first place.

    • Dr Gaye Barr says:

      11:59am | 15/02/10

      The full veil is sinister in appearance and does nothing for cultural integration. But the democratic value should prevail in Australia.

    • cranky says:

      11:58am | 15/02/10

      Your right about those white men, they’re bad news.

    • T.Chong says:

      11:48am | 15/02/10

      Well Dave, Dingo, Australian Egyptian et al, If this is all about security , NOT racism then you folks will have no trouble with LAWS that enforce a prohabition on people wearing colored contact lenses, hair dying, beard shaving (or growing), platform soles, rhinoplasty , wigs, haircuts etc etc or any thing else that can change a persons appearance.
      After all , if we are to be suspicios of muslim women , hiding their identities behind a veil, than what are we to make of a brunette with brown eyes who changes to a blond with blue contacts? Very suspicios dont you think?
      Hope you fellas never shaved a beard, or grew a mo,why were yous changing your appearance ?
      Sound guilty to me.

    • rene says:

      04:17pm | 16/02/10

      So T Chong, you think growing a beard is the same as actually fully COVERING your face?  I dont think so and so no, not guilty.

    • Australian-Egyptian says:

      05:19am | 16/02/10

      Like I said earlier, It problem is not with changing their appearance. The problem is will ELIMINATING their appearance. You do not know if they are male or female. You do not know if it is them or thier brother posing as them. You do not know if they are talking to you or the person next to you. You do not know if what you have just said has offended them or made them smile ....
      In any case, muslim women do not choose to dress like that. It is their fathers/husbands that demand it.

    • Lauren says:

      11:35am | 15/02/10

      Isn’t the burqa suppose to literally silent the woman, through speech and expression? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

      The burqa, put frankly, frightens me quite a bit. I tent to put my head down and walk past the women very quickly, and I have no idea why. Maybe its because I’m a narrow minded Aussie, but I appreciate eye contact when I am talking to someone (when I’m in western countries).

      I have no issue with the hijab, but the burqa I do not understand. I don’t think my fear of the burqa justifies banning it though.

    • Robert Smissen says:

      11:32am | 15/02/10

      For me I think we should ban the wearing of a crucifix as it was supposedly a means to torture people to death, wearing a crucifix makes as much sense as wearing “water boarding” equipment as a religious symbol.

    • Consevative says:

      11:30am | 15/02/10

      You are taking the issue out of context.  In Australia, your points may or may not be relevant.  In France, the reason for banning the burqa is completely different.  The French government has worked very hard for a very long time to make their country secular.  They are not interested in discriminating against religious minorities.  Rather, a purely secular society is their idea of how to make a multi-cultual country tolerant and reduce race- and religion-related violence.

      They have already banned other religious icons from public and educational facilities.  Allowing the burqa to stay in these areas would be discriminatory to everyone else - say, Catholics who aren’t allowed to wear crucifixes.

      It is very dangerous to take one country’s political reforms out of context and debate them in another country’s social climate.  How bout we leave France to the French, and concern ourselves with Australian policies and issues?

    • Dave says:

      11:13am | 15/02/10

      “To account for, and excuse the tyranny of man, many ingenious arguments have been brought forward to prove, that the two sexes, in the acquirement of virtue, ought to aim at attaining a very different character; or, to speak explicitly, women are not allowed to have sufficient strength of mind to acquire what really deserves the name of virtue. Yet it should seem, allowing them to have souls, that there is but one way appointed by Providence to lead humanity to either virtue or happiness.”

      Mary Wolstencraft would have seen the burqa for what it is, an ambulatory prison to keep women in check. It is not a western, racist conspiracy driven by the fear of “the other”.

    • Nick says:

      11:09am | 15/02/10

      When discussing the variations in regard to the wearing of head covering in Islam, a Muslim friend (who did not wear a head covering-not even the hijab)said:

      “My God is knows what is in my heart. He is not going to be fooled by a piece of cloth”

      So much for the notion of piety or closeness to God.! Would that more Muslim women would adopt this attitude, but of course, that is not what the mullahs are telling their menfolk in the Mosque now is it?

    • Nick says:

      06:32am | 16/02/10

      Ami, are you saying that Turkish women are hypocrites? I think you will find considerable disagreement with your belief that covering is an essential part of Islam. There are those who believe and argue that it is a cultural thing that has become attached to and enshrined in, religious belief and practice of some. I suppose you would support 300 lashes for those who don’t cover?

    • Ami says:

      11:46am | 15/02/10

      What is in our hearts needs to be supported by our actions, otherwise we are guilty of hypocrisy.  Wearing a veil is an undeniable part of Islam, and those who deny this are following their own religion, not that of Islam.

    • David says:

      11:02am | 15/02/10

      No rights without responsibility. An example: you must show your face to get a passport or a drivers license. You are free to refuse to, and will be denied either accordingly. Don’t want to take your veil off to enter a bank? Then you must stay outside the bank. Do not expect the majority to make way for limitations that you have taken on - it’s all about choice.

    • Cuppa says:

      02:04pm | 15/02/10

      Spot on David.

    • Your name:Ayesha says:

      12:34pm | 15/02/10

      Your comment:
      I totally agree. I found it very frustrating talking to a lady whose face I could not ‘read’.  Communication is more than just words. Facial expressions are very important and should not be dismissed. It’s only a matter of time before we read of some men acting out crimes etc. wearing these garments.

    • James says:

      11:42am | 15/02/10

      None of that requires a blanket ban on wearing them.  One could use internet banking instead.  There may be some situations when they can not be worn, but people should still have the freedom to wear what they like.  Some people find my sarcastic shirts offensive, but would they want to ban them?

    • Carl Palmer says:

      10:52am | 15/02/10

      You should have heeded your own advice - “This topic is a heated one and I am hesitant to weigh in” – you shouldn’t have.

      “Burqa ban is about our fears not their oppression”
      Fears? What fears? Fear is when I wear by buggie smugglers down to Cronulla beach.

    • Lucy says:

      04:33pm | 15/02/10

      Especially when she’s so misinformed!

    • AdamC says:

      10:50am | 15/02/10

      Anna, I agree that burqa bans are as much about a perceived increase in muslim influence and extremism than they are women’s liberation. However, I am not sure why that means such bans are automatically a bad idea. Around the world, including in many majority muslim societies, a struggle is occurring between modernist, secular forces and followers of conservative interpretations of Islam. Face covering is an important aspect of the worldwide debate (see Turkey as a good example) and stricter forms of veiling are a symbol of growing worldwide muslim radicalism. This is why, in many majority muslim societies (many of which took a historically relaxed view of female modesty) have seen recent increases in niqab and burqa-wearing.

      Your post is devoid of any of this context, and sees veiling from a purely, one could say naively, western point-of-view. Indeed, it is quite reasonable, if not necessary, for countries with large minority muslim populations, like France, to take a stance on the modesty issue. Thankfully, at least from a civil liberties perspective, I would argue that, unlike France, Australia can take or leave this issue (and we may as well leave it).

    • Australian-Egyptian says:

      10:29am | 15/02/10

      The niqab should be illegal everywhere. It is a known problem in Muslim countries like Egypt, that men sometimes wear it to infiltrate into women congregations and sexually assault them. Other times, people wear them to sit for their relatives’ exams and get them through uni.

    • Dingo_aus says:

      10:49am | 15/02/10

      Well put, there are practical considerations that transcend individual’s religious beliefs as they affect and impinge on other people’s rights.  That is why you have to take off a motorcycle helmet going into a bank - regardless if you have a religious reason to wear your bike helmet.

    • Leto says:

      10:10am | 15/02/10

      It’s probably pretty childish, but when I see someone wearing a niqab, I cannot help thinking about Ninja’s (and, of course, how awesome Ninja’s are). I have been tempted to give wearing one a go myself (I’m sorry if this is offensive to anyone). The next person you see wearing one could be a white, twenty eight year old middle class male.

    • FF says:

      01:28pm | 16/02/10

      I actually have one and have worn it before.
      One of my Saudi friends’ brought it over from his home country as a present for me. He wanted me to try it out and see for myself it wasn’t as bad as I thought it was.

      Very smooth and silky fabric, actually pleasant to wear - until I walked outdoors and started sweating buckets with the lack of ventilation and it was annoying in certain ways such as very hindered movement and it makes you very self-conscious (such as checking here and there to see if any part of you is ‘showing’). In 90 degree humidity and 34 degree temp it was not exactly a very pleasant situation to be in.

      If you wear specs it will fog up so I had to wear contacts. Later I got bored and breathless looking through a gauze mesh all the time (can’t see as well as you would like! Driving hazard!) as well as the air ‘in there’ getting stale as lack of ventilation, so I flipped the eye cover up and over my head to reveal just my eyes.

      As it was an Islamic country I was treated with a sort of reverence by the younger, naive, Islamic youth but treated rudely and as invisible (which is probably the whole point of it all, really.) by the general population.
      It was quite a lonely experience, as people just completely ignore you.

      There are many different types - I’d go for the Saudi version as its the most comfy (indoors or a/c areas or you’ll die of heat exhaustion!)  and you can have the option of covering the eyes through a flip cloth or having the normal ‘show eyes’ version.

      Wear with an open mind and keep a low profile.
      Its actually a very interesting experience. (My Saudi friend ‘escorted’ me around as my ‘husband’ so I wouldn’t get any ‘questions’ from fellow or concerned Muslims).

      My take is that if you were a rich Muslim wearing this would be actually perfectly fine (ironically rich Muslims usually do not wear the most extreme form of covering as they are more educated and liberal) and even desireable as you would be chauffeured here and there in relative A/C comfort and have the trappings of modern western luxuries to beat the heat and cumbersome hinderance of the cloth and in total anonymity.
      But if you are middle-class to poor (again ironically of which most wear especially the poor) sucks to be you, because you would do menial labour and back breaking work in these without A/C and many times not even a fan.
      Niqab is a very idealistic idea of woman’s liberation in a world full of discrimination, just like how the idea of a woman wearing close to nothing in the Western world would ideally attract no unwanted attention from males who would ideally ‘like’ her for her brains not 3/4 her twin tommies peeking out to say hello.
      Both have great scope for abuse.

    • Dan says:

      10:55am | 15/02/10

      I think of bee-keepers.

      And mailboxes.

    • pinkstar says:

      10:09am | 15/02/10

      What about Turkey?

      The pursuit of secularism should be applauded, as long as it is applied equally and fairly to all citizens.

    • Dave says:

      01:10pm | 15/02/10

      Ami, in 2005 the European Court of Human Rights found that the Turkish ban on headscarf was a valid way to counter Islamic fundamentalism. The court was trying to protect the fragile modernization of that country.

      Your argumentation is a good example of the appropriation liberalism by an orthodox religion to promote illiberalism. No one is fooled

    • Your name:Ami says:

      11:43am | 15/02/10

      Fanatical secularism is no different to religious fanaticism.  Denying education to girls that choose to wear a headscarf is oppressive and detrimental to the modernisation of a country.

    • Margot says:

      09:44am | 15/02/10

      As a Muslim convert I have to say that I think the Burqa and the niqab is unislamic,it’s a social thing that’s been mixed up with religion(alot of muslim nations have no concept of the secular) However,this debate really comes down to what kind of society we want to live in.Do we want to live in a country where you are told how to dress and what type of dress is appropriate,doesn’t that make us as bad as them by enforcing our own prejudices on these women?Aren’t we trying to move away from oppression instead of implementing a whole new kind?Most of these women wear these cloths by choice,it maybe hard for us to imagine why anyone would want to but the fact is that they do.It makes them feel closer to god.I may not agree with them(in fact I think they’re trouble makers) but I know that I want to live in a country where you can wear what you want,say what you think and do(within reason) what you please and the burqa ban is at odds with this.Don’t fool yourselves into believing that a ban would somehow liberate these women,it wouldn’t,all it would do is make us the oppressors for not allowing a fully grown woman to do and wear what she sees fit. By the way the Hijab is not oppressive at all I almost always wear it with short sleeve tshirt and jeans,so i don’t wear singlet tops anymore,who cares….I was getting too old for that anyway :D

    • FF says:

      12:33pm | 16/02/10

      Margot, good on you for converting.

      However, as someone who has lived in an Islamic country, lived in countries where Muslims weren’t just 0.6% of a country but were a sizeable majority or sizeable population (20 - 40% Muslim) , I think you would find that your thinking would be very different from most Muslims who are not migrants and refugees or first-second generation Muslims of the mentioned.
      In these countries its not about ‘choice’.
      The women you speak of who ‘choose’ to wear whatever they are wearing would not have such a choice nor freedom to do such things as their status would not be equal nor comparable to men in these societies - whether behind doors where tourists/visitors/foreigners might not see or the obvious.
      Yours is of the moderate kind, thinking, unhindered by political or social engineering and pressures rife within these countries which inflict massive influence on the Muslims of the native populace.
      These people port over an intolerant and very heavily imbued cultural Islam which is very different from generally, a Muslim convert’s view and understanding of Islam, which is more intellectual and spiritual.

      Many Muslim women choose to wear the hijab/niqab by choice - yes, but these are a very small minority who have actually made a conscious decision to do so, not influenced, pressured, forced or oppressed to wear it by peer pressure and the inevitable stigma as being seen as ‘unislamic’ or ‘not Muslim enough’.
      You forget that most Muslims (most, not all) in Australia are generally Muslim migrants and refugees who bring over an incompatible and culturally intolerant form of Islam which permises families and the generally tight-knitted Muslim community to dictate and pressure what their people (men and women, but of course, women usually get the lion’s share of the what-ought-to and what-ought-not-to’s compared to males as with most societies) do, wear, act, believe, say.

      I personally think that niqabs should NOT be banned but discouraged through education for Muslims BY Muslims and an understanding of the wider community.
      However, the niqabi should allow for security measures to be taken should she choose to wear it - considering we live in such perilous times and many men and people with unscrupulous characters have taken advantage of - such as having her face shown on her license card, or showing her face to a security card/police officer if requested.

      The wider community can accommodate this as much as reasonably can by having female staff where possible to view the license or face of the woman.

      A good many of my moderate Muslim friends have said the niqab - though not obligatory -  is to shield a woman from any potential unwanted male attention in circumstances which might permit (dangerous areas, areas/countries where she is in danger for not wearing in, etc) but say for example if she is required to show her face on a bus when showing a concession card there is no harm in removing her veil quickly to flash her face to allow just the driver to ascertain her identity and putting it back on.
      It fulfills the task and does not involve anything harmful, licentious to ‘invoke’ the desires of the male (potentially).
      It also respects the laws of the nation as is required by Islam when a Muslim is not living in Muslim lands, so long as nothing ‘unlawful’ (i.e. pork concerns, alcohol, adultery, etc) is breeched.

    • Sean says:

      01:46pm | 15/02/10

      Good for you Margot, I don’t have an issue with the Hijab, because it shows the face. I do have a problem with the Burka and Niqab as they conceal facial features.  In our relatively open Western society I just believe that hiding ones face from the rest of the population isn’t very welcoming.

    • Sam says:

      01:28pm | 15/02/10

      @Margot, thanks for proving that Muslim women can think for themselves.

    • Jenni says:

      11:07am | 15/02/10

      Thank you Margot for one of the better written responses to this article (IMHO) “Aren’t we trying to move away from oppression instead of implementing a whole new kind?” You have hit the nail on the head with this remark - it is not “liberating” muslim women to ban them from wearing their traditional dress, it is only enforcing a different ideal upon them, one that Western culture is more comfortable with.

      “Most of these women wear these cloths by choice,it maybe hard for us to imagine why anyone would want to but the fact is that they do.It makes them feel closer to god” Again, excellent point - I don’t see anybody on here suggesting that nuns should be divested of their habits?? Honestly, who can understand the desire to wear a long-skirted, long-sleeved, habited outfit in all weather? Yet this practice is never questioned because of Western culture’s acceptance of catholicism. Both women are wearing a garment which in their religion in considered to bring them closer to their god; while I don’t subscribe to either of these religions, I don’t feel it’s any of my business to tell them how to worship.

      Yes, in SOME sub-groups of Islam the hijab/burqa is used as a form of oppression and subjugation of women, but I do not believe banning them from being worn will help, it will merely encourage other forms of hell for these women. Being a white, atheist woman I am unsure what the answer IS but this isn’t it.

    • kelly says:

      09:17am | 15/02/10

      Sometimes, it’s easier to revert back to claims of ‘discrimination’ or ‘racism’ that to actually look at a cultural practice that is the very epitome of opression.

    • Dingo_aus says:

      09:16am | 15/02/10

      Anna Greer’s article mentions “making white people more comfortable”.  Is Anna saying Islam is a race and also suggesting that it is not a “white” one - whatever that means?

      I’m sure anglo saxon Muslims might suspect Anna Greer is a little confused when talking about Islam. Are these Muslims white?

      That said, I would be interested in Anna Greer’s comments on UNICEF’s reports on Female Genital Multilation and what she suspects is causing 70 million women to be subject to this horrible act:
      http://www.unicef.org/progressforchildren/2007n6/index_41847.htm

    • Eric says:

      09:16am | 15/02/10

      “... white men, who are not exactly torch bearers for the gender equity movement ...”

      On the contrary, white men have done more for gender equity than any other group. It was white men who created the advanced democratic societies that made gender equity possible. It was white men who invented the labour-saving devices that freed women from a lifetime of drudgery. It was white men who first gave women the vote, and who passed laws guaranteeing equal rights.

      Without white men, women would be chattels, as they are today in Islamic countries.

    • Lachlan says:

      06:18pm | 15/02/10

      @Eric One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. Either way it was not some gift handed down by white men in their vast beneficent reason. It was fought for, and violently yes. I am pretty sure Emily Davison wouldn’t be thanking them for passing it almost two decades after her death.

    • Eric says:

      03:22pm | 15/02/10

      So, Lachlan, you’re saying that suffragettes were violent terrorists? That doesn’t make them look good to me.

    • Lachlan says:

      12:38pm | 15/02/10

      @Eric Emily Davidson died when when she stepped out in front of the King’s Racehorse in protest. Other suffragettes bombed government offices, set fire to things, even threw acid at ministers. And others were arrested and essentially tortured in jail. Trying to put white men in some kind of beneficent light for granting them rights in nonsense. These rights for fought for.

    • Eric says:

      12:09pm | 15/02/10

      John, I accept your apology. I have always been in favour of equality, and my beef with feminism as it exists today is that it is an anti-men movement, not an equality movement.

      Nevertheless, my point remains. It was white men who listened to women, and who decided that the suffragettes were right, and that women should get the vote. Those white men were not defeated in battle or in any other sense. They simply were persuaded by reason to accept equality.

      The same is true today, though in some cases the pendulum has swung toward advantages for women over men.

    • John A Neve says:

      11:24am | 15/02/10

      Eric @ 1027hrs,
      I am sorry for my earlier droll post, I won’t do it again.
      But “white men” did not advance womens rights, women did, they fought very hard for them.

      Men of ALL colours have tried to hold women back in many, if not all walks of life.

      I just found it very funny Eric, you telling us what “white men” had done for women. Once again, I’m sorry.

    • Eric says:

      10:07am | 15/02/10

      Lachlan, name the women Members of Parliament who voted to give women voting rights? Oh that’s right, there were none. It was the male politicians who granted women those rights, just as they had granted them to men just a few decades earlier.

      People who bang on about women’s suffrage seem to be ignorant of the fact that throughout most of history, both women and men were denied the right to vote. And it was men who did most of the fighting and dying to secure those rights for everyone.

    • Eric says:

      09:27am | 15/02/10

      Since I’ve just pointed out the many ways in which white men have liberated women, John, your comment makes no sense whatsoever.

    • Lachlan says:

      09:27am | 15/02/10

      They didn’t just “give” women equal rights, suffrage and all that. Women fought and died literally for those rights. Against these “white men”. So lets not get too carried away here with their wonderful beneficence.

    • John A Neve says:

      09:23am | 15/02/10

      Eric,

      I’m with you bruva, we “white men” must stick togeva. Barefoot and in the kichen, that’s a womans place.

    • wk says:

      09:16am | 15/02/10

      I agree that the thought process behind banning isn’t due to concern about the women wearing them. HOWEVER it is such an abhorrent symbol of opression (Have a look at the treatment of women in Afganistan, particularly when the taliban ruled,) that frankly, I’m happy for it to be banned regardless of why. It suggests that women are something shameful, not to be given a face, or in many places, a voice. I feel a massive amount of pity for any woman who has to wear one.

    • Dan LEwis says:

      09:02am | 15/02/10

      I’ve always loved how women in Burquas wander the streets of Sydney when its 38 degrees, while their husbands are comfortably wearing t-shirts, shorts and sandals.

      Feminists should be along any moment to insist that the Burqua isn’t sexist and oppressive towards women.

    • rene says:

      03:48pm | 16/02/10

      Ish, if you want to see the full burqa etc.. you should go visit say Bankstown, Lakemba etc.. in NSW.  There are definitely more than one there. And yes, I have to say the ones that are in full black and with the mesh around the eyes DO scare children. Have seen it myself.

    • Dan says:

      05:16am | 16/02/10

      Sigh. You do realise that telling women what to wear IS oppressive? Pathetic.

    • Ish says:

      04:05pm | 15/02/10

      I’m curious as to where you would see women wandering around in burquas? In my 23 years living in Australia I have only ever seen one and she was doing her shopping in Kmart and other than the realisation that that was the first women I’d ever seen in a burqua I didn’t give it another thought. And just for your information she was alone.

    • Sean says:

      01:20pm | 15/02/10

      Guess what James, we tell people what to wear and do all the time, ever heard of dress codes or our laws in general.

    • Chris says:

      01:13pm | 15/02/10

      “I’ve always loved how women in Burquas wander the streets of Sydney when its 38 degrees, while their husbands are comfortably wearing t-shirts, shorts and sandals.”

      Dan, you obviously have never seen the Bedouin’s in the desert. They were long, flowing robes, men and women, in 40+ degree heat (especially in the Sahara). Have done so for centuries. Same as Afghani tribesmen and women.

      Those long robes are more comfortable and give less exposure to the harsh sun than shorts and a tshirt (a plus in this country of ours, with the highest rates of skin cancer, no?).

    • James says:

      11:37am | 15/02/10

      Telling people what they can and can’t wear is oppressive to everyone.  I like freedom, thank you very much, and I for one do not want there to be some kind of national dress code.  They start with burquas, move on to hijabs, and who knows where it will end?

    • June says:

      08:40am | 15/02/10

      Yes, ban the burqa- but not the hijab.  When it comes to school uniform, why not make the scarf in the school uniform fabric?

    • Sherlock says:

      08:36am | 15/02/10

      This is just a missive from another mad depressed leftie on a guilt trip. The fundamental left never wastes a chance to point out what a rotten society we are and how evil western society is in how it treats other cultures.

      The response from the remaining 90% of western society - YAWN!!

    • Eliza says:

      08:23am | 15/02/10

      top right picture is a hijab, top left is a burqa - getting it right would be a good start. and anyone who’s frightened of a veiled woman needs to have a good hard look at themselves and their own prejudices. it’s a personal choice.

    • Jason says:

      08:23am | 15/02/10

      Compare and contrast.

      “I’m an atheist white woman ... so I’m not going to unpack the significance of the burqa within a women’s rights framework”.

      “However, it is clear ... one problem these men have with the Islamic veil, even if they don’t realise it, is that it challenges their assumed entitlement to gaze upon women’s bodies “.

      So, as an atheist white woman, you can’t comment on gender implications of religious/cultural traditions.  However, you can comment on what is REALLY motivating men. 

      This is one of the poorest peices of analysis I’ve read in a long time.  The arguments for and against the full niqab in particular are much more nuanced, and despite your dissembling must take into account contemporary Western standards regarding equality between the sexes.  Your article does nothing to further this debate.

    • Macon Paine says:

      02:42pm | 15/02/10

      Exactly the OP is way out of her league yet still has the hide to throw in some foolish uninformed comments, well put.
      This is a terribly one sided article by you Anna Greer (what an ironic last name), I see your clearly not living up to it.
      Basically the jist of the OP is that it’s all the white mans fault, non muslim white men are now apparently oppressing women who where quite happy being oppressed by muslim men many of them white in the first place, how dare they!
      Anyway if the OP had done even the slightest bit of research, she would have known that Turkey and Tunisia both have bans on women wearing the Hijab in goverment buildings ect ect, so my question is this, do you think that these countries are banning the hijab so as not to offend the white man? 
      Further to this is the OP aware that there are 4 countries/regimes which enforce the wearing of the hijab in public at all times? These bastions of human rights and equality include Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, the taliban in afghanistan. Does the OP find this exceptable? That religious police enforce these laws and if not why doesn’t she write a piece condeming them? Over to you Anna.

    • Liz says:

      01:53pm | 15/02/10

      I agree - ridiculous comment !  As a woman I could not in my imaginations ever think that any government would make such a policy based on their ‘entitlement to gaze upon womens bodies”.  With ramblings such as this…it is hard to give any serious consideration to the article or the person who wrote it.

    • Sean says:

      01:17pm | 15/02/10

      She lost me after that and when she starting talking about ‘white men’, ‘gender equality’ and ‘assumed entitlement to gaze upon women’s bodies ‘.

      So all white guys are misogynists just looking for a booty call according to you Anna…pathetic article

    • zoe says:

      11:17am | 15/02/10

      Glad to see someone else saw that, my mouth was hanging open when I read that.

    • Dave says:

      08:19am | 15/02/10

      Anna, fear can be a healthy defense mechanism.

      Whilst it is may be true that in France some women wear the burqa out of choice, the French law is a blunt but necessary instrument designed to protect the many women who are forced into wearing it.

      Government policies and laws should be concerned with public goals such as integration, social cohesion and gender relationships and put them above and beyond warped notions of individual choice, which are in this case just a rhetorical Trojan horse for the promotion of dangerous Islamist ideologies. The European courts of human rights certainly appreciated this when it upheld for these reasons the headscarf ban in Turkish and French public schools in 2005 and 2008.

      Finally, it is interesting to note that whilst western, atheist feminists fret out about banning the burqa, the 2003 Nobel Prize winner, Shirin Ebadi, last week joined a long list of fellow Muslim women and Muslim organisations around the world supporting a ban of the burqa. They have a good understanding of the misogynistic and totalitarian nature of political Islam, something that we should also fear.

    • Dan says:

      01:54am | 17/02/10

      The problem, Dave is that bans are blunt instruments. There are other ways to protect those who are coerced into wearing it (such as education and support) without coercing those who do so freely into not wearing it. As far as I’m concerned, such bans are completely unacceptable.

    • Dave says:

      10:06am | 16/02/10

      Dan, I agree with you that the burqa and niqab can have a multiplicity of meanings. The question is therefore should the law protect the civil rights of who freely choose to wear it or the civil rights of those who are coerced into wearing it. Since it is very difficult to disentangle one from the other, the ban is there to protect the more vulnerable group.

    • Jon says:

      09:21am | 16/02/10

      Dave@ agree, all others please read.

    • Dan says:

      05:25am | 16/02/10

      “fear can be a healthy defense mechanism” Except when it becomes racism, as it is in this case and it clearly is with you.

      Give me a break. This is not the first time you applied objective symbolism to a subjective issue. There is NO objective reson that they represent Islamism, and if you think that the The European courts of human rights’s decision to uphold the bans were justified, then you are delusional. Here’s something that might shock you; plenty of Muslims wear hijabs, as well as burqas, who are NOT extremists! The headscarf ban in Turkey (which is incredibly controversial within Turkey) is just as disgusting as Saudi Arabia mandating the use of the veil. The same goes for France. Let me guess, you oppose Saudi Arabia yet support France and Turkey. Hypocrite.

      Also, you single out ‘western, atheist feminists’, except what are you? Are you an athiest? Are you a feminist? You do realise that this is an issue which crosses cultural boundaries. As for Ebadi, a wonderful and well deserved Nobel Peace prize winner, but we are allowed to disagree with her.

      “They have a good understanding of the misogynistic and totalitarian nature of political Islam, something that we should also fear.” Right. Yet again, it is not a fact that the burqa, and especially the hijab, represent the ‘he misogynistic and totalitarian nature of political Islam.’ You may believe that they do, but that is merely an opinion and one interpretation. You need to realise that plenty of other people, most of whom know far more about Islam than you could ever know, have different interpretations!

    • Caz says:

      08:13am | 15/02/10

      We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.

    • stephen says:

      09:38am | 15/02/10

      Hmmm…nice analogy. Wish more’d watch the show.

    • Appalled says:

      08:10am | 15/02/10

      You mean assimilate. And you just made your point very clearly by being ignorant of basic English expression.

    • Faul Kinell says:

      07:45am | 15/02/10

      Ban the wearing of this face covering. If they want to live here, conform to the norm!
      Don’t frighten our kids, old people or bank tellers! ASIMULATE!!

    • Dinsdale says:

      10:25am | 16/02/10

      Why do I have to take off my helmet at the service station and bank when hijab wearers do not? After all motorcycling is my religion.

      Why complain about France when the religious police in Saudi or Iran would have women banged up in minutes for not wearing the veil? No complaints about Saudi then?

      Personally I think religion should be banned – as quoted in SMH Saturday how many atheists have ever tried to blow up a plane?

      Here is a solution, respectfully wear your chosen garb to you church/mosque/synagogue only. A little bit of enlightenment please.

    • Nic says:

      09:23am | 16/02/10

      I detect a hint of racism there Sam. I don’t recall saying anything that you have spat out. I don’t recall asking for an apology either. But that’s ok, attack me and my heritage, I couldn’t give a toss. Your argument is futile, so spew your spleen all you like. Assimilate or don’t come here. Simple. Now run along and brush up on your hypocrisy, you sad, sad little person. BTW, you’re clearly a lower class Labor voter judging by the way you put words in to peoples mouths.

    • Sam says:

      10:35pm | 15/02/10

      @Nic, so I take it you’ve “assimilated” and got yourself a job rather than living off the land have you? I take it you don’t like to see your fellow indigenous Australians doing their bush dances with the white paint? I suppose you think there’s no place for something like that in modern Australia… what a confused individual you must be. :-(

      Just because you’ve lost your pride, doesn’t mean others have. If you’ve made a personal choice about the way you want to live, then respect other people’s choices too. Afterall, how does a woman wearing a burqa adversely impact your quality of life? maybe you just want to see someone else’s culture being ridiculed rather than yours? short memory my fellow, short memory. Shame on you, to think so many people feel you are worthy of an appology, seems a little wasted on you in particular. Why don’t you and biff have a beer together? maybe we can save some money by treating you both with the same dialysis machine. Cheers.

    • Nic says:

      05:19pm | 15/02/10

      @Sam, hahahahaha. I am indigenous you boofhead. Try again sunshine. @biff, I might try that one.

    • Lucy says:

      04:32pm | 15/02/10

      Agreed, take your dark ages misogyny back to where it belongs.

    • Sam says:

      01:32pm | 15/02/10

      @Nic, why didn’t you assimilate into Australia’s indigenous culture? Hypocrites without principles. You bend the rules when it suits you. Let’s see you guys turn back globalisation now that you’re starting to lose that game too. Perpetual losers, I wonder why?

    • Here we go again... says:

      12:28pm | 15/02/10

      Each to their own.  You say, ” ban the wearing of this face covering”.  I say “ban too-tight clothing, muffin-tops, exposed stretch-marks/untoned stomachs, butt-cracks etc etc”.  You say, “ASIMULATE”.  I say, ” if you want to ASSIMILATE, learn to speak and SPELL the very language you claim as your own.  That’s the frightening part.”

    • biff says:

      11:37am | 15/02/10

      Nic, when requested by a bank employee to remove your motor cycle helmet you should respond by saying that you can’t comply because the helmet is part of your religion.

    • Nic says:

      09:43am | 15/02/10

      Couldn’t agree more Faul Kinell. What happens if you walk in to a bank with a bike helmet on? You are asked to remove it. What happens if you walk in to a bank with a burqa on? Nothing. Double standards and I could go on and on. You want to live in this Country Assimilate. @ Alice and Appalled, I didn’t realise this was a spelling competition.

    • Lachlan says:

      09:10am | 15/02/10

      I was born here, never spent more than 2 months at a stretch away from Australia. I don’t wish to conform to the norm, and why should I have to?

    • AliceC says:

      08:18am | 15/02/10

      ‘If they want to live here, conform to the norm!’

      The beauty of living in a country like Australia, is the freedom to be yourself and do what you choose. Whether you eat a BBQ every Sunday, pray in your backyard, or sleep in until 2pm, we are a country of free people. What is your ‘norm’ Faul?

      Forcing people to ‘ASIMULATE’ (I’m assuming you mean ‘Assimilate’) goes against what our country stands for, FREEDOM!

      ‘Don’t frighten our kids, old people or bank tellers’

      By your theory, I find drunk bogans wandering the streets in the afternoon frightening (they abuse strangers, cause fights and are generally a nuisance), should they be banned too from what they do by choice????

    • Loving says:

      07:34am | 15/02/10

      I am an Anglo Australian, I am a Methodist born agnostic. If this is a part of someone else culture, leave them alone. I don’t understand why a veil is a such a big deal to some. Under that veil is a person, just like you and me. Sometimes when my hair is a mess or I forgot to pluck my eyebrows I think a veil might come in handy. We are fortunate, we have had a really good run with our Muslim community, overseas their seems to be more of a problem. I know this recent court case is a worry but hopefully this will deter any other radicals

    • anon1 says:

      07:08am | 15/02/10

      > “I’m an atheist white woman and I understand relatively little about the nuances surrounding this piece of clothing within a western context.”

      Then really you need to go and learn more about it before writing about it.  Face-covering is a significant problem for muslim women, particularly young muslim women.  I have spoken with educators in universities in Islamic countries who say that girls who only wear a hijab often face peer pressure to cover their face, as a kind of “piety” contest.

      No one grows up normally with a desire to cover their face.  It is indoctrinated into girls and young women, and in some cases forced upon them.  It is divisive, and segregationist, and it really does have no place in secular, western society.

      By all means let men and women cover their hair.  Head coverings have been used for religious and non-religious reasons since the human race began.  But covering our faces in public is not natural, desirable or healthy behaviour.

    • Dan says:

      10:31am | 19/02/10

      Oh, and regarding the minaret being the ‘power symbol of political Islam and Sharia law’ which is absurd, should church steeples be banned? For they surely symbolise political power. Or is it just Islam which will be discriminated against?

    • Dan says:

      10:27am | 19/02/10

      “Islam has to alter and RESPECT other religions and other ways of life” LOL, yet you think that minarets and the burkah should be banned! Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word respect, as in a liberal democracy, banning minarets and the burkah is NOT showing respect, and respect is two-way. Thankfully, the government is not going to adopt any of you suggestions.

    • Sam says:

      10:13am | 19/02/10

      @Di,

      “Islam has to alter and RESPECT other religions and other ways of life”

      yes, I’m with you on that one.

    • Di says:

      01:05pm | 16/02/10

      And, there are the medical implications; lack of Vit D and Vit A is a significant problem in Asian burqa wearing women - no doubt in all countries where it is worn - Taxpayers of Aus pay for the Medicare system - this is just another burden on our health system - It has no place in Western countries -  it is a relic of laws that were decreed thousands of years ago…ban it like Switzerland banbed new minarets, The minaret is the power symbol of political Islam and Sharia law and that too has no place here. Islam has to alter and RESPECT other religions and other ways of life…

    • Di says:

      01:05pm | 16/02/10

      And, there are the medical implications; lack of Vit D and Vit A is a significant problem in Asian burqa wearing women - no doubt in all countries where it is worn - Taxpayers of Aus pay for the Medicare system - this is just another burden on our health system - It has no place in Western countries -  it is a relic of laws that were decreed thousands of years ago…ban it like Switzerland banbed new minarets, The minaret is the power symbol of political Islam and Sharia law and that too has no place here. Islam has to alter and RESPECT other religions and other ways of life…

    • Fog Badger says:

      07:27pm | 15/02/10

      Right on, anon1.

    • The Cricket says:

      04:56pm | 15/02/10

      Hear, hear. Well written.

    • RB says:

      06:21am | 15/02/10

      The Burka represents everything that is wrong with the poisonous muslim religion.Australia should be doing the same instead of constantly pandering to this minority, a minority trhat has brought nothing but problems to Australia.

    • Ken says:

      09:21am | 22/02/10

      Dan

      In Australia we use terms like “mate” to refer to other people in general conversation.

      When you come to Australia you will learn things like that, and many other great things about our culture. If you look for the worst, as with anywhere, I am sure you will find it.

      I hope you don’t find any of those Naxies though,  whatever they are they sound nasty…

      Robert Manne may be a darling of the Left because he says what they want to hear, and helps pump the Guilt Industry that feeds our minorities with government grants, etc.

      I believe though that he lacks credibility to a large degree because he has been unable to substantiate any evidence when challenged. Feel free to research the challenge to him to name 10 members of the ‘Stolen Generation’, who were actually ‘stolen’ on the basis of an anti-aboriginal policy. Every person he has nominated has confirmed themselves they were put into care due to neglect.

      You sound like you only hear what you want to hear too. Clearly you are unable to understand or explain the difference between race and religion, as I noted.

      Seems Jack Thomas has a point, several in fact. You don’t seem to come within a bull’s roar of being able to deny his points about Islam and its definite lack of peacefulness, rather its link to terror in fact.

      Pointing to facts is not hatred, either.

      Thanks for trying though.

    • Dan says:

      08:15pm | 19/02/10

      Ken, numerous writers such as Robert Manne, who knows slightly more than you do, have referred to a new racism originated by the Naxies where religion, ethnicity and blood have replaced race. Hating Muslims is absolutely being racist! Do some research.

      “Hence why your argument is nonsense and you just resort to accusing anyone who differs of being racist or idiots.“Actually, my argument is not nonsence and I accuse people of being racists and idiots, who ARE racists and idiots. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck…

      “Signs that you’ve have lost the argument mate.” No, it’s a sign that people like Jack Thomas, and perhaps you as well, are racists and idiots. If you are going to attack a religion and act like an idiot, you should expect to be called a racist and an idiot. That is how the world works. Plus, how is it possible that I could lose an arguement like this to either Jack Thomas or yourself? LOL. I won this arguement the moment you and Jack Thomas started posting.

      Oh, and don’t call me mate. I’m not your friend.

    • Ken says:

      04:23pm | 19/02/10

      Dan

      A definition of racism for you:
      noun
      1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement,usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
      2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
      3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

      Can’t see religion mentioned anywhere.

      Religion is not race.

      Jack is pointing to aspects of what he thinks of a religion, not a race.

      You seem to not even understand this, nor make any effort to even try to understand it.

      Hence why your argument is nonsense and you just resort to accusing anyone who differs of being racist or idiots. Signs that you’ve have lost the argument mate.

    • Dan says:

      05:08pm | 18/02/10

      Ken, LOL, I used the murder of the Sudanese youth as an example of how white people committt murder but it doesn’t automatically makewhite people murderers. As for failing to convince anyone that Islam is a religion of peace, the only people I have failed to convince are idiots and racists!

      Oh don’t give me the ‘not even yourself it appears’ nonsence. Of course I am convinced. It is a good arguement and I am neither a racist or an idiot. Are you?

      Jack Thomas; “Ahhh, stupid has a new name.” You’re right, it’s jack Thomas. I don’t need to define racism. Villifying epople based on theitr religion or ethnicity IS racism. Moron.

      ” Dan - “if you search for something and find it, that doesn’t prove anything either”.” Absolutely true.

      “Me - “Shariah, the supposedly ultimate religious law for Muslims, includes violent, barbaric punishments”.
      Dan - “In some cases..”
      Dan - “I also never said that Sharia was violent and barbaric” ” Here’s a shock. If you are going to pretend to engage in intellectuall discussion, don’t lie and don’t deliberately take the other person put of context. Idiot.

      “Dan - “Australia is NOT a Christian country”
      2006 Census in 2006 - 64% of Australians advised that they were Christian, 1.7% advised they were Muslim.” It’s irrelevent as to how many people in Australia are Christian. This is a Christian majority country but it is NOT a Christian country. If you can’t tell the difference, then you are a bigger idiot than I had truly imagined. The only people who imagine Australia to be a Christian country, when it is just as much Islamic as Christian, as KKK idiots like yourself. It is NOT a Christian country.

      “Me - “Why are the Imams in so many countries (like Indo) preaching violence as a means to achieve their ‘religious goals’ in the name of Islam?
      Dan - ”Not that many..” ” True. Perhaps you should provide evidence? Oh, right, you don’t have any.

      “Me - “Name one Australian artist/comedian who was subjected to a fatwa. You can’t.”
      Dan - “You’re right, though. Christian leaders don’t do that”
      Dan - “All religions have fatwas; they just call them different things”. ” Again, fatwas are religious orders. Are you so du,b and stubborn that you are incapable of learning?

      “Me - “Fatwas are only issued by Muslim leaders, and millions have been issued.
      Dan - “Absolutely.” ” So? Almost of them are related to ordinary life issues. Again, DO YOUR RESEARCH!

      “Either he is a complete monkey or proof that senior Islamic leaders will advocate violence in the name of Islam.” Or he is an EXTREMIST.


      Thomas, you are not only a disgusting KKK racist, but you are quite possibly the biggest idiot I have encountered in quite awhile. You should enter a stupidity competition; you would win every year! IDIOT!! Thank god, peole like you are not in power. If you were, Australia would be destroyed. Why don’t you go leave ad never come back? We don’t need racist idiots like you!

    • Ken says:

      03:21pm | 18/02/10

      Dan, if you are going to use the senseless and revolting murder of a Sudanese youth in your argument you should be aware that you are sugegsting that it was a racial attack.

      That means not related to his religion, understand? 

      Race. Religion. If you are unable to understand this basic difference, your arguments don’t stand much chance of convincing anyone, not even yourself it appears.

      In any case, the Judge in sentencing said of the killer “he left home intent on serious violence … towards the people who congregated around the Noble Park railway station, whatever their race’‘.

      Justice Curtain ruled the crime was not racist. That is a fact.

      Nothing to do with religious beliefs, or burquas, or your failure to convince anyone that Islam is a religion of peace.

    • Jack Thomas says:

      08:55am | 18/02/10

      Dan, please define racism. While you’re at it, you may care to define which race Islam is?

      Moron.

      You do make me laugh though, especially with comments like:

      Dan - “if you search for something and find it, that doesn’t prove anything either”.

      Me - “Shariah, the supposedly ultimate religious law for Muslims, includes violent, barbaric punishments”.
      Dan - “In some cases..”
      Dan - “I also never said that Sharia was violent and barbaric”

      Dan - “Australia is NOT a Christian country”
      2006 Census in 2006 - 64% of Australians advised that they were Christian, 1.7% advised they were Muslim.

      Me - “Why are the Imams in so many countries (like Indo) preaching violence as a means to achieve their ‘religious goals’ in the name of Islam?
      Dan - ”Not that many..”

      Me - “Name one Australian artist/comedian who was subjected to a fatwa. You can’t.”
      Dan - “You’re right, though. Christian leaders don’t do that”
      Dan - “All religions have fatwas; they just call them different things”.

      Me - “Fatwas are only issued by Muslim leaders, and millions have been issued.
      Dan - “Absolutely.”

      Dan - “Your comment about the ease with which senior Muslims call for violence would be amusing if you weren’t villifying an entire group of people”,

      So no query as to why the head of the UK Shariah Court should just throw out a Fatwa on Rove McManus? Omar Bakri Muhammed is the most senior person in the UK overseeing this devout Islamic law. Either he is a complete monkey or proof that senior Islamic leaders will advocate violence in the name of Islam.

      Which is it?

      Dan - “Absolute nonsence. But even if it were true..”

      Dan - “Who said they were seen as the most Muslim? But even if that were true..”

      Ahhh, stupid has a new name.

      Keep going with these quotes Dan, I want to make a desk calendar.

    • Dan says:

      03:00am | 18/02/10

      Jack Thomas, rather than write an entire post responding to you, since I ahave better time than to speak to KKK idiots like you, I will simply make some comments.
      1)Jihad does NOT mean holy war. It means struggle.
      2)Fatwas are religious orders. All religions have them, they just don’t call them that.
      3)You provide no evidence that Islam is not a religion of peace but rather that you are a stupid racist.
      4)I have never denied that terrorist attacks in the name of Islam don’t occur, the fact that you alledge this makes you a liar. Rather, there iis NO evidence that 14,000 or whatever terrorist attacks have occured in the past 8 years. I also never said that Sharia was violent and barbaric, yet again you are a liar. It covers both criminal and civil law, with the criminal law adopting oubishments from other religions,
      5)The West is NOT Christian. Australia is NOT a Christian country. If yiu think that Australia is Christian, then you are not just a racist and an idiot, but delusional as well.
      6)Your comment about “millions of Muslims worldwide planning..” which has no proof is yet another example of your intellectually bankrupt racism, as is your idiotic comment that the majority of Muslim countries condone terrorism. I would suggest you prove it, yet racist idiots like you don’t allow for evidence to threaten your xenophobia and prejudice.
      7)Your comment about the ease with which senior Muslims call for violence would be amusing if you weren’t villifying an entire group of people. For that matter, yes, Irving has been banned here, but there are plenty of racists and Islamophobes here in Australia. Like you for instant!
      8)Referring to wikepedia and number of google results simply shows what an idiot you are. It proves nothing. Additionally, if you search for something and find it, that doesn’t prove anything either. Also, considering the number of Muslims in the world, your methodology si simply crap.
      9)Many of the groups you refer to, as well as Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and Iran, are EXTREMISTS. Look it up.
      10)You spoke of the five Muslims on trial for terrorism, yet you said nothing of the two men who bashed the Sudanese refugee to death. By your silence, and by your other comments, you probably idolese these two guys. Either way, you’re a racist idiot. BTW, based on the fact that these two guys adid what they did, should we assume that whites are automatically racist? Apart from you, of course.
      11)I don’t need to prove that islam is peaceful. I simply need to point to the billion+ people who follow it peacefully.
      12)Islam IS a religion of peace. That is not a lie, it is a truth. What is also the truth is that you are a disgusting KKK racist and so dumb and stupid that, compared to you, a new born baby would have the intelligence of Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton combined.

      You really are disgusting. People like you should be deported! You contribute nothing positive and all that you contribute is ignorance and hate.

    • Jack Thomas says:

      04:22pm | 17/02/10

      James, the Google comment is to respond to Dan’s inability to acknowledge there have been any Islamic terrosit attacks, quote “Your evidence for this is….. Yep, you probably don’t even have any proof.”

      He seems unable (unwilling) to know where to even look for evidence of incidents of Islamic violence.

      The 14 million Google hits for “Islamic Terror Attacks” clearly are obviously only mentions of these attacks, not numbers of actual attacks, per population, etc.

      You have made the stretch and created a methodology, not me. I made no mention of extrapolating Google hits into stats, othe than to show Dan there seems to be lots of evidence of Islamic violence.

      Make sense?

    • James says:

      01:23pm | 17/02/10

      Hi Jack, 

      I just applied your Google search methodology to other groups, and the results are quite interesting.  You say that Muslims and terrorism turned up 14 million hits.  With 1.57 billion muslims in the world, that is about 112 Muslims per terrorism hit.  Do a similar search on Jews, and it turns up 755 000 hits.  With 13.2 million Jews in the world, that is one hit for every 17 Jews.  Hmm, all of a sudden, this methodology does not look so sound.

    • Jack Thomas says:

      11:59am | 17/02/10

      Dan, I nearly stopped reading when you used LOL, but the rest of your post made for such a great laugh. I’m inclined to re-read it for a chuckle in the future as well. You’re not trolling me are you?

      You forgot to add, “you are, so there!” and “nerrr, suffeerrrr”. Surely you could have added emoticons as well?

      Your lie that Islam is a religion of peace still remains that, a lie.

      Remember that this is the point you tried to make, yet you can show no evidence where it is, and so many can show evidence where it clearly is not.

      I’m sorry you claim to have forgotten so much about Islam, a large part must be the old “Islam is a religion of peace” thing. As you even point out, there are many other things about Islam you seem to have forgotten as well.

      A few questions for you:
      Did Jihad just appear in the 1980’s or has it been around for as long as Mohammed? Whatever you claim, Jihad is recognised as meaning “Islamic holy war”, and involves millions of Muslims worldwide, from those involved in direct action, behind the scenes planning, recruiting, fundraising, promotion or just assisting and condoning. Peaceful?

      Can devout Muslims also be fundamentalists, or are fundamentalists in no way devout Muslims?

      How many results do you get when you Google “Islamic terror attacks”?

      I got over 14 million, funnily enough the 5th highest one was a warning from the DFAT the Australian government website. Wikipedia is so overloaded with lists of Islamic Terror Attacks entries it has to split them up into seperate pages. Peaceful?

      Of the 19 worldwide terrorist groups banned in Australia, how many are Islamic? I’ll give you a hint, it’s more than 17 and less than 19. That’s 95% of violent terror organisations banned in Oz that are Muslim. Peaceful?

      David Irving was banned from entering Australia for his clearly offensive views, unlike Islamic countries where the majority allow, do not argue against, and thefore condone violent acts of terrorism in the name of Islam.

      Did you miss the news this week about 5 Muslims in Sydney being convicted of plotting terror attacks in the name of Islam? Been to New York, or Mumbai, or Bali, or on the Tube in London? Maybe it is because the media are so scared of offending Muslims they call them “militia” instead of terrorists now. Did Muslims bring peace to these places?

      So because another country is also violent, that means devout Islamic countries like Iran or Saudi are somehow not? In the case of Congo or Burma, their violence is race or politically related, not in the name of a religion. In reality, Western (Christian) countries bring in bans, trade exclusions, political isolation, etc. on these countries, what exactly do Islamic countries do to Saudi or Iran?

      You accept that Islamic law of Shariah is violent and barbaric, but then claim it is somehow due to Jews and Christians. Which parts, and how so? How many other devout Muslims promoting Shariah law would agree with you on that point I wonder?

      What is the Christian or Jewish equivalent of a Fatwa exactly? When and what was the last one issued by the Pope or an Archbishop?

      Funnily enough, Rove McManus had a Fatwa put on him by the head of the Shariah Court in the UK Omar Bakri Muhammed (part of a joke by John Saffran, but shows the ease at which senior Islamic figures will advocate violence).

      Aren’t you even aware of the major SE Asian Islamic organisations like Jemiah Islamiah, Lakshar E Toiba, even our own Abu Sayyef (with local links in Dandenong)? What about the Taliban? Devoutly Muslim? Peaceful?

      Why can’t you refute one example of clearly violent actions with a fact that this is peaceful, or somehow incorrect?

      Maybe is it because Islam is simply not a religion of peace. Simple, like yourself really.

    • Dan says:

      11:13pm | 16/02/10

      Jack Thomas, LOL, are you for real? You call me a numpty, but what does that make you? Mohammed was a warrior among other things, so to criticise him for killing people is absurd. “

      ” I shouldn’t need to do research Dan, when you so clearly can’t.”  LOL, I’ve forgotten more about Islam in one second than you’ve learned about it in your entire liftetime!

      ” Muslims have continued their Jihad against other religions for 1400 years.” Right. Whatever you say. How can anyone respond to something as stupid as this?

      “Not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicitly in the name of Allah.” Not a week goes by? And your evidence for this is…. BTW, you said Islamic fundamentalist, so you agree that we are talking about fundamentalists or extremists here, and not the ordinary Muslim.

      “Yet, none of these other religions are at war with each other.” Well, I don’t know. Have you heard about Sri Lanka? However that’s beside the point. We are talking about EXTREMISTS here.

      “As the prophet Mohammed said, ” He who fights that Islam should be superior, fights in Allah’s cause”. So much so, there have been 14,000 recorded incidents of violence (terrorism) in the name of Islam in the past 8 years worldwide.” Your evidence for this is….. Yep, you probably don’t even have any proof.

      “If the fundamental Muslim countries are seen as the most “muslim”, ie. Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan, etc. then why are they the most violent?” Who said they were seen as the most Muslim? But even if that were true, there are plenty of more violent countries, both Muslim and non-Muslim.You have heard of the Congo and Burma for example?

        “Why are the Imams in so many countries (like Indo) preaching violence as a means to achieve their ‘religious goals’ in the name of Islam? ” Not that many. Again, provide proof.

      “The overwhelming majority of Muslims around the world refuse to refute the claims and speeches of these Imams.” Nonsence. Absolute nonsence. But even if it were true, just because someone chooses not to refute certain things doesn’t mean that they agree with them. Afterall, I don’t see you refuting David Irvin’s Holocaust denial; obviously you agree with him!

      “Shariah, the supposedly ultimate religious law for Muslims, includes violent, barbaric punishments.” In some cases. However many of these punishments were inspired by Judaism and Christianity! You are such a fool it’s not even funny.

      ” Christian leaders do not advocate a Jihad yet millions of Muslims do.” Millions of Muslims do? It would really help if you provided proof for your disgusting accusations. But then you don’t have any. BTW, you do realise that Jihad actually means struggle? And the Greater Jihad refers to an internal struggle.

      “Christian leaders do not advocate a fatwa on an author or artist everytime they roll out another Satanic Verses, Piss Christ or even Kochie’s “joke’ about the Virgin Mary.” Name one Australian artist/comedian who was subjected to a fatwa. You can’t. You’re right, though. Christian leaders don’t do that. They simply try to have the work banned!


      “Fatwas are only issued by Muslim leaders, and millions have been issued.” Absolutely. But guess what? Fatwas are religious rulings! That is all they are. All religions have fatwas; they just call them different things.

      You are so ignorant it’s a joke.

      ” Religion of peace, my arse. That’s a lie and you know it.” No, the only thing I know is what an ignorant and disgusting racist you are! You are an abomination. Not only do you have absolutely no knowledge of Islam (I would suggest you do research, but that is undoubtfully foreign to you), but you are so disgustinly racist it’s not even funny. Islam IS a religion of peace, while you on the other hand offer nothing beneficial to the world, and I know that.

    • Dan says:

      08:55pm | 16/02/10

      Martin G, the point is that European countries are mainly liberal democracies. The religion is irrelevent. Muslims have AS much right to live there as Christians, and they have AS much right to follow their religion as Christians.

    • Jack Thomas says:

      02:30pm | 16/02/10

      Here we go with the “Islam is a religion of peace” lie.

      Bulldust. It is a complete lie, trotted out by numpties like Dan defending the indefensible.

      I shouldn’t need to do research Dan, when you so clearly can’t. You can’t even point to any examples? Not one.

      Ok then - In the Koran, Mohammed had people killed. Peaceful?

      Muslims have continued their Jihad against other religions for 1400 years.  Not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicitly in the name of Allah. Yet, none of these other religions are at war with each other.

      As the prophet Mohammed said, ” He who fights that Islam should be superior, fights in Allah’s cause”. So much so, there have been 14,000 recorded incidents of violence (terrorism) in the name of Islam in the past 8 years worldwide. 

      If the fundamental Muslim countries are seen as the most “muslim”, ie. Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan, etc. then why are they the most violent?

      Why are the Imams in so many countries (like Indo) preaching violence as a means to achieve their ‘religious goals’ in the name of Islam? The overwhelming majority of Muslims around the world refuse to refute the claims and speeches of these Imams. 

      Shariah, the supposedly ultimate religious law for Muslims, includes violent, barbaric punishments.

      Christian leaders do not advocate a Jihad yet millions of Muslims do. Christian leaders do not advocate a fatwa on an author or artist everytime they roll out another Satanic Verses, Piss Christ or even Kochie’s “joke’ about the Virgin Mary. Fatwas are only issued by Muslim leaders, and millions have been issued.

      Religion of peace, my arse. That’s a lie and you know it.

    • Martin G says:

      10:20am | 16/02/10

      @Dan “you do realise that Muslims have every right to live in Europe don’t you and that Europe is not automatically Christian? Racist fool!”

      I’m not saying Muslims don’t have a right to live in Europe. There is nothing racist about the facts: Europe is majority Christian and Catholic (and has been for centuries), the Middle East / South-East Asia is majority Muslim.

      Luckily for Muslims in Europe, free speech and democracy rights are afforded to them should they become citizens. Try exercising your right to protest in countries with hardline-Islamic Governments and see how far you get.

      Screaming ‘RAAAAAAAAAAAACIST’ does nothing to help your argument, or lack thereof.

    • Jon says:

      09:16am | 16/02/10

      Adam@ I use to a have a little emphanthy for left but they decided on the crap of cultural relativism as their new mantra. This allows many so called human rights groups to defend of the indefensible. Many secularist and atheists movements in Muslim countries suffer violence and are not helped by the lack support from western countries standing up for secular values.  The Burka represents religious oppression and no amount of apologies can change that.

    • Di says:

      08:36am | 16/02/10

      Agree

    • Adam says:

      01:05am | 16/02/10

      I completely agree with you RB.

      And Jack Thomas - why are you assuming that Lefties are against the ban on the burqa? I’m a proud leftie and islam is completely incompatible with leftist thought - intolerance shouldn’t be tolerated.

    • Dan says:

      09:03pm | 15/02/10

      RB, as far as I can see the only problems that have been brought to this country has been due to racists like you. A poisonous religion? You disgusting racist! People like you are the real poisonous ones!

      Lucy, you agree do you? Wow, how smart are you?! Not only do you agree with repulsive racism, but all you can say is ‘agreed’. Fool!

      Martin G. Islam is absolutely a religion of peace. If you can’t see that, you need to do some major research! As for “sticking up for their dominant culture/religion instead of becoming overrun by someone else’s” you do realise that Muslims have every right to live in Europe don’t you and that Europe is not automatically Christian? Racist fool!

    • Ish says:

      03:52pm | 15/02/10

      How many Muslims do you know that spout this “poisonus religion”? I know a few people of the Muslim faith and none have shared any sort of extremist view to me.
      I worked with a young woman who wore the hijab and I asked her about it, she said that it was her choice to wear it, her mother and sister did not wear it and that she felt it empowered her. She believed that it enabled her to find a man who would like her for her intellect and personality rather than based on her looks only.
      How is Australia pandering to the minority? Allowing them religious and cultural freedom?

    • Jack Thomas says:

      01:57pm | 15/02/10

      Please think before hitting the send button Robert.

      I think you just added less weight to your side of the argument, if that is possible.

      Have a look at where the burqua comes from, and it isn’t the countries where you could go and voice your opinion mate.

      Take your Western views on equality and fairness to the land of the burqua, let’s see how you go. 

      I know it is an amazing concept to you Lefties to not try to destroy the fabric of our own community, at the expense of people who you even don’t have the balls to disagree with, just so you can have a cause, or feel good in the conversation at your Northcote dinner party.

      It goes against the grain for Lefties to think about defending the society and values that allows them to then speak and act as they do.

    • What is the real agenda for pro/anti? says:

      01:10pm | 15/02/10

      To quote an online news service:

      A burqa ban in Italy would be largely symbolic, since the full veil is hardly ever seen in the country.

      Even in France, which is about 10 percent Muslim, estimates are that fewer than 2,000 women wear the full veil.

    • Robert Smissen says:

      11:12am | 15/02/10

      RB why stop at bagging the burka, why not have a go at blokes who wear beards or blokes taller than you, it would make as much sense.

    • The Drover says:

      10:10am | 15/02/10

      Agree, modern western government think that they can ignore 1500 years of history and that muslims will fit seamlessly into western society, we have all seen the results. It is an agressive prosetylising religion that cannot easily accept minority status.

    • Martin G says:

      09:48am | 15/02/10

      I am with you RB. The so-called ‘religion of peace’ appears to be anything but.

      Contrary to you opinion, Ms Greer, I think some of those European countries have actually shown some common sense by sticking up for their dominant culture/religion instead of becoming overrun by someone else’s. Britain could learn much from this.

    • Lucy says:

      08:50am | 15/02/10

      Agreed

    • Bec says:

      05:35am | 15/02/10

      Yes. Agree on 100% of points.

      I admit that I hate what veiling symbolizes. I especially hate walking around uni, or going into doctors surgeries, and seeing a woman in a niqqab being escorted by some douchebag male relative who is decked head to toe in A/X or Ed Hardy singlets and $500 diamanté encrusted sunnies. (Seriously, they need a punch in the kidney for the hypocrisy.)

      But that’s the thing: they’re out in public, attending courses at university and being seen to by healthcare workers. I hate the burqa but appreciate that it is the only means by which this small subset of women can engage in the community. Banning head coverings is effectively locking these women up in their homes: never to receive an education or get treatment.

      This is a situation where the men involved need education and challenging.

    • bec says:

      03:43pm | 15/02/10

      No. As I said, the rationale for covering the face is deplorable. If you listened to feminists, you’d hear them echo the same belief. But banning the burqa is going to ensure that these women are effectively housebound until the views of the men in question change. These women are entitled to be out in the community, and if it means with face-coverings for the time being until attitudes change, then so be it.

    • Jack Thomas says:

      01:05pm | 15/02/10

      So you disagree with the ban on the burqua on the basis that our community just has to accept these women are probably downtrodden and our community should not actually do anything about it? Too hard ey?

      Is that any different to allowing the physical abuse of a woman to continue because to report it might cause her abuser to cause more?

      How do you exactly propose “the men need education and challenging” anyway? I don’t disagree at all, but I reckon you’ll need luck on that one. The Australian community has not been able to do so without the Leftards screaming racist every time.

      Bilal Skaf, Keyser Trad, Sheik Hilali are classic examples in Sydney alone where protection is afforded to Muslim men to act or speak out horrendously in public, all caused by our own community too scared to move for fear of being called racist. Maybe we could ask these guys to help with the education and challenging?

      The Left and outspoken feminist comentators are significant with their gutless absence on this specific issue. Time and again.

      Tony Abbott makes a silly comment about women ironing and he’s front page news, but force a woman to wear a large cloth bag over her head and associated cape and you need “education and challenging” but otherwise the Left are just too scared to speak out.

      Imagine if this were in the USA or Israel, not France? Ahh the hypocritical treatment from the Left is breathtaking yet again.

      The writer glibly states that this ban “frames Islam as incompatible with secular Europe and enlightenment values” and suggests the ban is because of those awful horrid white men (again) just wanting to perve on women.

      Is she talking about the Italian Minister for Equal Opportunity, Ms Mara Carfagna, who said she supported the French recommendation?

      List the enlightened values claimed in Europe against their friends from the hardline (burqua wearing) Muslim world, especially countries like Iran. Women’s rights? Free speech? Freedom of religion? Views on homosexuality? etc etc. 

      I am comfortable saying my motivation for the ban on the burqua represents a lot more than the persecution and treatment of those women, not the least that it goes to the hardline Muslims, the same part of a religion who think Europeans and Australians are infidel scum who should go straight to hell via Jihad. It tells them we don’t agree with your views on these things and we will do something about it (peacefully).

      If “there are muslim women who have voiced support for the ban”, then let’s see how well they are received by the majority of the Muslim world? Care to mention any and assess how they are faring?

      We are talking about a religion who whipped up their own worldwide uproar over a little Danish newspaper cartoon which as a result saw killings, massive protests and death threats, etc. 

      I give up, go on, call me racist then. It’ll save you time and make you feel better than facing reality.

    • SN says:

      10:52am | 15/02/10

      You had me at “Ed Hardy wearing”....

    • bec says:

      08:13am | 15/02/10

      They’re not douchebags because they’re men; they’re douchebags because they’re Ed Hardy wearing hypocrites.

    • T.Chong says:

      07:47am | 15/02/10

      Misogyny of any type is deplorable Bec, same as yur “douchebag (charming) male relative…”  an appalling piece of misandry. You spoke to these women ? and male relative ? and were able to form that opinion? or are you just engaging in your own piece of villification?
      A ( metaphorical )smack across the head with a cricket bat for your own hypocrisy.

 

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