Was it a hit squad? The Americans’ codename for Osama Bin Laden was Geronimo. Geronimo was the Apache leader who was pursued, captured, became a sideshow attraction and lived out his days on a reservation.

One of these is not like the other one… Pics: AP/AFP

No one wanted bin Laden to become a sideshow. The White House says that they would have captured bin Laden if they could, but that he offered resistance.

Of a choice between capture or kill, kill was always preferable.

The decision to shoot him dead, according to the White House, was taken in the moment, during the raid, and was not pre-ordained.

So why then shoot an unarmed man? And what resistance did he offer?

The White House story is changing. Initially they said he used his wife as a shield. Then, the day after, they clarified, saying that his wife threw herself at one, or possibly two, commandoes as they entered a room within his compound.

The so-far unnamed wife, who was shot in the leg, was also unarmed. The picture seems to be of a hysterical, desperate woman begging for her husband’s life, probably because she believed in him, rather than a woman who offered a serious threat to the Navy SEAL commandoes.

The commando who shot bin Laden - who will now need to go under the military equivalent of lifelong witness protection—was not under fire from bin Laden or his wife, but there was shooting and chaos about the compound at the time.

This is what White House spokesman Jay Carney called the ‘fog of war’, when asked to explain why bin Laden was shot. He would not detail what resistance bin Laden offered.

America does not conduct political assassinations these days, not officially. The idea is to capture and interrogate, but the Guantanamo Bay terror pen is not accepting new prisoners. The CIA also has the option of secret jails to hold high-value targets, but these too have fallen from favour in the Obama era.

Bin Laden, the most valuable target of all, was in one sense of no value to US interrogators at all; at least, not alive.

He would not, presumably, surrender information. And even if he did become a cooperative prisoner, after the Guantanamo debacle there would, doubtless, be perverse demands that bin Laden, if captured alive, be treated with the utmost respect.

Bin Laden, for many reasons, was better off dead.

According to the New York Times version of what occurred in the Pentagon situation room, President Barack Obama and others watched the briefing in real-time, courtesy of a commando’s helmet-cam. It was CIA director Leon Panetta, in his situation room in a different location a few kilometres away, who narrated events for Obama.

“We have a visual on Geronimo”, Mr Panetta said.

Minutes later, Mr Panetta said: “Geronimo EKIA. Enemy killed in action.”

And then President Obama said: “We got him.”

Momentous history began at this point, history that will be debated, analysed, distorted and pored over for centuries. But we are fortunate to be living in times so close to the event: history also knows that what is first reported is so often closest to the correct version.

It was always intended that he die. President Obama more or less said it.

There was no desire to take bin Laden alive. Keeping him in a federal prison would be a logistical disaster. Federal US prisoners are not up for the death penalty, and few Americans would much go for the idea of bin Laden cruising to death by old age on three-meals-a-day.

This would not have gone down well with the American public.

Mr Carney offered his President some protection at a White House briefing yesterday, by saying he was not the hit man. Carney said all decisions were made by the troops on the ground. President Obama was not sitting there saying, “Finish him”.

Now the White House is weighing up whether to release photos of bin Laden’s death face to the world. Colin Powell, the Bush Administration’s secretary of state, said of the photo: “I don’t need to see it. He’s dead. We all know that”.

Powell added that it was a tough call for Obama, because even if he did authorise its release, there would be those who would always maintain it was a fake.

The US has difficult choices in coming days. If the photo was released, what media in the western world would show it anyway? It would become an internet sensation, no doubt, and people could get their fill easily enough if they wished, but would that be a desirable outcome?

Mr Carney said they were weighing up the release but, as the reality sinks in, it seems there is little to be gained.

Even more crucial than the photo is the footage - which most assuredly exists - of bin Laden being dumped into the sea. Vision of the American military conducting Muslim burial rites could cause real problems.

190 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Erick says:

      06:12am | 05/05/11

      Keeping terrorists as prisoners has become more trouble than it’s worth. With leagues of Western-civilisation-hating activists portraying murderers as victims, and tying up the system in frivolous legal proceedings, there is little incentive to bring prisoners back alive.

      Rather than providing fodder for loony lefties who idolise the likes of David Hicks - a featured guest at the Sydney Writers’ Festival this week - wiser heads may in future decide that a swift kill and quiet disposal is the preferred course of action.

    • TChong says:

      07:27am | 05/05/11

      “Kill them, kill them all”. Very convenient for the status quo.
      But what about ambiguos ( to the west ) causes?
      Should the Tamil rebels- terrorists to Sri Lanka, be rounded up , sent back to SL for execution?
      The Karen (sic) rebels in Burma?
      The Uighurs? Terrorists to China, freedom fighters to the west.
      How about the ultimate nightmare- invasion from muslim hoardes ?
      If we fought back, would we be “Terrorists"deserving death?
      One mans Freedomm Fighter is always another mans “Terrorist”.
      BTW Eck- I’m not mourning BL , or AlQueda, but applying your idea to a broader scenario.

    • Erick says:

      07:54am | 05/05/11

      TC, I’m not proposing any one-size-fits-all global solution to every issue.

      I’m simply pointing out that in our society, capturing terrorists alive has become so politically problematic that it is simpler just to kill them.

    • Mahhrat says:

      08:01am | 05/05/11

      The problem is the sovereignty of a nation versus the ideals it upholds.

      I agree with the writer, he’s better off dead, gone, and we move on.

      No amount of evidence is going to appease the disbelievers, so why provide it?

      We’ll either take it at face value that he was shot, killed and buried in accordance with his religion (something, I might add, that’s been well overlooked and was a nice touch), so we don’t need to see it, or we’ll never believe the “evidence”, in which case it doesn’t need to be seen.

      There is no upside to show and tell.

    • A Bob says:

      08:03am | 05/05/11

      Erick, it saddens me when people insist on dividing the world into black and white caricatures. The West owes its existence to radical progressives. The freedoms we enjoy, and have fought to keep, come from the ones once considered loony activists.

      Thomas Jefferson said, ““The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.” Unfortunately, that vigilance has been turned to paranoia through a campaign of fear and Americans have lost some of their hard won freedoms because of it.

      I won’t quote Benjamin Franklin saying “He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither”, because he never said (or at least wrote) that. What he did write was, “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Americans have been conned into selling off some of the best parts of their culture and history for power that can never be maintained.

      If we (The West) choose to wage a war on terror, then we should abide by the rules of war that we helped create, that is, if we truly love the West.  As a person who has lived in other parts of the world, including Communist China and moderate Muslim states such as Malaysia, I will very much say that I think the West got it more right than others. But we got where we are by centuries of getting it wrong first, much blood was spilled along the way, but the abiding principles of liberty, justice for all, charity and valour managed to survive sufficiently intact to show that, over time, things improved.

      This progress has always cost us. But the profit that came after was greater. Do you understand the accounting term, “lost opportunity cost”? Cutting corners by not undertaking ‘frivolous’ proceedings will cost us more in the long run. Because cutting corners means cutting the things that make us great, and yes, superior, to other cultures. I’m no cultural relativist.

      But you are trapped in the false dichotomy of left vs right. Outdated and useless for anything other than manipulation of the gullible by political interest groups.

      You might like to read “From Plato to NATO: The Idea of the West and Its Opponents” by David Gress. He’s a conservative historian, and a good one. You will enjoy his swipes at post-modernism near the end (I did). He gets a bit boring in the middle because he keeps restating his initial premise too often, but it’s worth persevering.

    • Erick says:

      08:19am | 05/05/11

      A Bob - While it is true that much of what is good in Western civilisation was created by radical progressives, it does not follow that everything radical progressives advocate is good.

      In particular, the glorification of those such as David Hicks, who has become a cultural hero among the social left, is an example of ideals being taken to the point where they are destructive rather than productive. And it is a fault of the Left - you won’t find righties inviting him to speak at their cultural conventions.

      Too much adherence to a perfect ideal can be as bad as none at all. In fact, in the hands of cultural enemies, such principles are cynically used as levers to overthrow the very society that makes them possible.

      Just as not all “progressive” ideas are not good, so not all “regressive” ideas are bad.

    • iansand says:

      08:49am | 05/05/11

      Erick - Have you ever considered that David Hicks is a “hero” because the freedoms for which the West has fought failed?  IIf he had not been incarcerated on the basis of dodgy evidence and charged with non-crimes he would be little more than a very naughty boy - not even a footnote in history.

    • The Redman says:

      09:32am | 05/05/11

      I can see where this is going, Erick, as it is the second time in as many posts you have used the name David Hicks, with your absurd accusations that people idolise him. What absolute nonsense, and I defy you to post any reasonable evidence that that is the case. I certainly don’t idolise Hicks but I do consider that Hicks was a victim of gross injustice and was abandoned by his Government which toadied to a regime lead by a far right border-line nutcase in a process that is clearly against every international and western law, not to say the moral repugnance of it.

      I’d like to know whether you have read his book. It would be interesting to know if you’ve even bothered to hear his side of the story - a version he has insisted on since the day he was apprehended. Even given that one must treat with caution books written by a person about themselves, and the obvious conflict of interest that is inherent in such publications, his version rings true, as far as I’m concerned. However, whether or not it is wholly true, partly true or completely false, it is the fact that he and every other detainee at Guantanamo Bay were and are being subjected to a system that is completely illegal under any definition you’d like to name.

      The very fact that the centre is in Cuba and not the US is proof, as if the centre where on US soil, there is no way this type of treatment would be permitted under that country’s own laws and Bush knew this very well, hence the location of the prison - or let’s call it what it is - the concentration camp.

      What you call frivilous legal proceedings are in fact the very foundation of our society. What rubbish to accuse those of us who support the rule of modern western society of hating it, when it is the likes of you, Erick, who seeks to undermine centuries of judicial tradition. It is you who would have a right wing police state with no left wing or socialist views permitted. It is you who would have us murder at will those who do not conform with your views, whether political, social or religious.

      We have, over the centuries, had many societies with this culture, more recently one lead by a funny little psychotic with a little, black, square moustache with a unique skill to select one single portion of his society and convince the majority that it is right to hate and kill them.

      This appears to be the society which you are aiming for, one willing to push aside the traditions of justice, morality and freedom for power and wealth. I am tired of hearing you spouting crap about freedom, when really you’re saying that freedom is only what you decide freedom is and nothing more. Your freedom is the freedom to agree with everything you say or the freedom to be imprisoned or killed if you disagree. I’m not just referring to this topic, but you posts in general. They all point to this. You want a right wing, one party state with the power to destroy every other political party, particularly the greens and of the course the ALP.

      It’s clear Erick that you think the good “regressive” laws include summary execution, detention without charge or trial, torture and murder - but of course only of those with whom you disagree. All good right wing christian whitey’s, of course, will have the full protection of the law.

      Our society has hundreds of years of judicial, social and moral tradition, at least in theory, and therefore it must apply to all. It is not up to you Erick, or anyone else, to decide who will and will not have it’s protection.

    • Tom says:

      09:45am | 05/05/11

      @A Bob, I appreciate your well read perspective. However, Eric has untied the Gaudion Knot.

      Our legal system is a failed monopoly of self-serving wankers, who have no interest in protecting the society that remunerates them. They should be by-passed at every opportunity where important decisions need to be made.

    • Septimus says:

      09:57am | 05/05/11

      iansand,

      You are aware that Hicks wrote letters to his parents admitting his involvement in terrorist organisations?

    • DJ says:

      10:03am | 05/05/11

      @Bob it may sadden you to also learn that OBL and his mates had divided the world into VERY black and white caricatures. If you didn’t believe in Jihad you were dead meat.
      It must be so hard to read Gress with one hand while you wank with the other.

    • A Bob says:

      10:30am | 05/05/11

      Tom, I agree that our legal system is broken in many ways. I’ve been through it myself and seen with my own eyes the theatre that calls itself a justice system .

      I wrote a lengthy replyto Ericks response to me, but the Punch web server spat an error message and appears to have eaten it. :-(  I might try again at lunch time as I’m really supposed to be working. (Not for much longer though, got told I’m being laid off the other day. Hurrah! The place sucks anyway.)

      But, in short, just because something is broken is no excuse to totally abandon it. And using it as an excuse to just execute people without trial is hardly a positive means of reform.

    • JulesG says:

      10:33am | 05/05/11

      Erik : Killing terrorists without trial or any other prisoner for that matter is also fraught with difficulty. It’s the thin end of the wedge, where does it all stop?

      Terrorism is a subjective term anyway, as it depends what camp you’re in. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

      I’m afraid the US is in a bit of pickle over this one. They have no way of proving to the world what they said happened or even if OBL is actually dead!

      Some say OBL died years ago of kidney failure and this debacle is just a rouse to get on Pakistan’s case. The yanks have left themselves wide open to criticism and conspiracy theorists with no evidence or body to substantiate what THEY say actually happened.

      It’s all very sus and a country that can have its own president shot is capable of anything. This is like the death of Hitler it could go on for decades.

    • Erick says:

      10:36am | 05/05/11

      David Hicks is local, and his celebrity is a good example of loony lefties supporting the enemy.

      Said lefties have come to the conclusion that Western liberal civilisation is evil, the most evil thing on Earth. By extension, this belief implies that anyone we are fighting must be the good guys. That’s why there’s so much sympathy for Islamic militants and their ilk.

      Likewise in the case of bin Laden - the niceties of supposed legal procedure are not invoked for the sake of principle, but as a propaganda weapon to attack the real enemy - our society.

    • John says:

      10:40am | 05/05/11

      Once again, Erick, true to form - the firstest with the leastest.

    • Pete says:

      10:54am | 05/05/11

      @ Erick, even though you dont advocate one size fits all solutions. how tempting would it be for some governments to proceed down that path.  Indeed many do.
      @TC, all those ethnic groups you mentioned were native minorities except for the Tamils who were brought from India to work on the tea plantations. I agree with you stating One mans Freedom Fighter is always another mans “Terrorist”.  After all, what would the british have thought of the “minuteman” in the American war of independence.  An american teacher shaved his beard of grown since 9/11 because he vowed that it would not be shaven until bin laden had been captured or killed. After he shaved his beard off , he very wisely stated that no one has won from any of this.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:02am | 05/05/11

      If I may,

      1) I’m sick of this ‘One man’s Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter bullshit. Its always been a load of crap. You want to know the difference between a ‘Freedom Fighter’ and a ‘Terrorist’ ?? Its pretty easy, one fights the ‘enemy’ for ‘Freedom’ the other deliberately targets civilian men, women and children to cause terror. How bloody hard is it for some of the simpletons we have running around??

      2) Ben Franklin can suck my left nut. Again, I’m sick to the ye teeth of his platitudes about freedom and liberty. Don’t forget, he’;s the bloke that spent the Revolutionary War drinking and rooting his way through Parisian Society whilst his countrymen actually fought their war for Freedom, Liberty and all that.

      3) To the author, a ‘Senior’ journalist, SEALs are not Commando’s. Nor are they ever publicly identified. Wether or not the bloke wants to throw his hand up after he leaves military service would be up to himself. Just as our serving SAS troops are also kept anonymous….unless they are awarded a VC.

      4) Bin Laden could have been standing there with a puppy and bouquets of flowers - who cares, no-one except the handwringers give a shit if the Yanks dropped him. Lets hope they drop a few more as they poke their heads up.

    • JulesG says:

      11:02am | 05/05/11

      The Redman: Very eloquently put - well said!

    • iansand says:

      11:07am | 05/05/11

      Septimus - Sure am.  Why does that deprive him of a right to trial on recognised charges?

      Erick - I think the “loony lefties” were agitating for a proper trial for Hicks.  Which seems to be supporting the ideals of “Western liberal civilisation”.

    • Septimus says:

      11:49am | 05/05/11

      iansand,

      He got a fair trial, he pleaded guilty.

    • A Bob says:

      11:58am | 05/05/11

      Erick, in my response that got eaten, I tried to point out the following.

      I did not say that all progressivism is good. I gave it as a counter example that once was called loony is now mainstream and our lives are better for it. And I pointed out that not all the progress was forward, hence the countless wars and reference to blood being shed. The synecdochical (I just threw that that big word in so that DJ can call me a wanker again, it basically means ‘tarring with one brush’ ) language you employ is what I was rebutting. And you are doing it again, trapped in the black and white mindset as you are, it’s all or nothing with statements like “it’s all the fault of the left”.

      As for the Hicks example. Is it not possible the over zealousness of the prosecution is what made Hicks a celebrity? Had they followed due process, tried him on the evidence they had rather than trying to beat it up to make an example of him, he would have been found guilty of being a stupid kid who wanted to play soldiers and got in way over his head. They could have smacked him on the arse (good an hard, mind you) locked him up for a while and then sent him home to his mother as the subject of ridicule for being the twit that he is.

      Instead, they handed him to the ‘loony left’ as a cause célèbre. (Another big word so that DJ doesn’t feel left out).

      I have no problem with Osama being dead, and as I said to acotrel yesterday, claiming it was a ‘summary execution’ is an example of the other end of the spectrum of the black and white mindset. I also said a military court would be appropriate as the War On terror, as much as I hate the name, is legitimate and under the rules of war Osama should be tried as such. This would help keep the grand-standers at bay. The system can work, you just have know how to use it. reading the instruction manual (even with one hand) helps.

      And your ‘Too much adherence to a perfect ideal’ paragraph, well, that’s just a variation on the “we had to kill the patient to save him” fallacy. As Jefferson said, it’s vigilance that guards us from enemies, both from within and without, not fear. The paranoia you espouse is what gives them a victory without trying; they seek to destroy our freedom and succeed by frightening us enough to do it ourselves.

      But apologies if recommending a book was seen as patronising, just the opposite, I think you’d have the intelligence to get a lot out of it and was recommendING out of respect. You do at least argue the point rather than hurl insults. 

      Which brings us back to DJ. Thanks for the insult, mate. It always helps a person’s argument when the best someone can come up with is a lame retort like yours. For the record, I’ve always been able to wank single handed, can’t you? I thought everyone did. Maybe you’re not doing it right and need some lessons. Should be lots of stuff on the ‘net you can download to help with that. Or, perhaps, ...is it possible.. that you don’t ever wank at all? No wonder you’re so uptight. It’s OK to try mate, apparently Muslims aren’t allowed to either, so it’s not like you’d be going over to their side or anything.

    • iansand says:

      12:08pm | 05/05/11

      Septimus - Pleaded guilty to offences arising from activities that were not criminalised at the time he committed them?  There is a reason that retrospective legislation is pernicious.

      Apart from the years of incarceration to soften him up.

      I am no fan of Hicks.  At best, he is an idiot.  But I also think that we, or the US, is surrendering very important principles because of its paranoia about terrorism.

    • John says:

      02:26pm | 05/05/11

      iasand, David Hicks trained with and fought with LeT a terrorist organisation that has carried killings in India. Hicks should be handed over to the Indian Govt.

      I think ppl should really read into more who David Hicks assosiated with in Pakistan. He took a wrong turn what a joke.

      Little bit of reading

      In a March 2000 letter to his family, Hicks wrote:

      don’t ask what’s happened, I can’t be bothered explaining the outcome of these strange events has put me in Pakistan-Kashmir in a training camp. Three months training. After which it is my decision whether to cross the line of control into Indian occupied Kashmir.

      In another letter on 10 August 2000, Hicks wrote from Kashmir claiming to have been a guest of Pakistan’s army for two weeks at the front in the “controlled war” with India:

      I got to fire hundreds of bullets. Most Muslim countries impose hanging for civilians arming themselves for conflict. There are not many countries in the world where a tourist, according to his visa, can go to stay with the army and shoot across the border at its enemy, legally.[27]

      During this period, Hicks kept a notebook to document his training in weapon use, explosives, and military tactics, in which he wrote that guerilla warfare involved “sacrifice for Allah”. He took extensive notes on, and made sketches of, various weaponry mechanisms and attack strategies (including the Heckler & Koch submachine gun, the M16 assault rifle, RPG-7 grenade launcher, anti-tank rockets, and VIP security infiltration).[28]

      Letters to his family detailed his training:

      I learnt about weapons such as ballistic missiles, surface to surface and shoulder fired missiles, anti aircraft and anti-tank rockets, rapid fire heavy and light machine guns, pistols, AK47s, mines and explosives. After three months everybody leaves capable and war-ready being able to use all of these weapons capably and responsibly. I am now very well trained for jihad in weapons some serious like anti-aircraft missiles.[29]

    • iansand says:

      03:04pm | 05/05/11

      John - Is it an offence to train?  Is it an offence to fire bullets?  Is it an offence to spend time with the Pakistan army?  Particularly, are those things offences in Pakistan or Afghanistan where the events seem to have occurred?  Has India sought extradition?

    • A Bob says:

      03:06pm | 05/05/11

      That’s interesting stuff, John. If correct, I agree, Hicks should be handed over to the Indian government.

      This only seems to make the US prosecution seem more incompetent. If they had this sort of information and could prove it then what went wrong? Was the prosecution trying to grand stand and get something to make him an example for US propaganda use rather than do what the evidence demanded and hand him over to the Indian government instead?

      It still only suggests to me that if due process had been observed a more fitting outcome would have occurred.

    • Ryan says:

      05:18pm | 05/05/11

      @TChong: “One mans Freedomm Fighter is always another mans “Terrorist”.” this statement has always been false and misleading.
      What is a terrorist? If you intentionally set out to attack and kill innocent men women and children then you are a terrorist, not a freedom fighter, no matter what side of the fence you stand on.

    • Paulb says:

      06:26am | 05/05/11

      Like all these kinds of events, the initial narrative shifts and changes to cover the holes that always appear after a bit of scrutiny, but that won’t matter.  The newspapers have already been sold, the TV footage of rent-a-crowd (crowds gathering before the announcement? clever or what) has been shown and the ever distractable public, now with their memories manufactured for them and their infantile blood-lust sated, move on.  The official story can change all it wants now, because no-one will notice except the so-called “conspiracy theorists”.

    • John C says:

      06:37am | 05/05/11

      Here is a question, Paulb. Who is into conspiracies more, the loony left or the whacky right. Or is it a necessary symptom of irrational extremism.

    • Erick says:

      06:43am | 05/05/11

      Like all events reported in real time, the story shifts and changes as more facts come in. As any judge would tell you, different witnesses see different versions of events.

      If it really was all a conspiracy, all the details of the narrative would have been carefully worked out months in advance and there would be no changes.

      What we’re seeing is the gradual emergence of facts mixed with speculation mixed with personal viewpoints mixed with political agendas. Confusion is exactly what you’d expect in a real, developing situation. Sorry, no neatly planned conspiracy here.

    • toast says:

      08:29am | 05/05/11

      No conspiracy. It’s hard to envisage a capture mission, “Geronimo” was to be killed, that seems to be the logical conclusion, a few bullets or years of incarceration and courts at tax payers expense, I know which option makes the current administration look better to the majority of the american public. However, there’s probably 100 out of 6 billion people who actually know the truth and persons in those positions aren’t about to go selling their story to the highest bidder. I guess the remainder will theorise from armchairs and keyboards and make judgments on diluted information.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      06:31am | 05/05/11

      Ill go with Colin Powell on this ‘he’s dead we dont need to see the footage’.
      What they should have done was wrap him in the cavity of a dead pig and then threw him into the ocean. Send a warning to would be murdering extremists that this is the fate that awaits you.

    • Jake says:

      07:09am | 05/05/11

      How do you fit a man inside a pig?

    • malohi says:

      07:26am | 05/05/11

      Yeah and they should have taken grainy footage to post on youtube.
      With an american flag in the background. with troops with rifles standing around. How about a few people screaming jehova is great.

      That is what we all want don’t we, I mean we are fighting for freedom and a civilized world and their “murdering extremist” ideology is completely incompatible with ours…. aparrently.

    • TChong says:

      08:21am | 05/05/11

      Sir Ronny , that was The Badgers idea !  ,( minus the burial at sea.)
      But , to be serios ( for once) -
      Agree with Malohi - getting all hot and flustered and giggly about how to kill our opponents,in the most degrading way , hardly lets us take the high moral ground for too long.
      ( no offence or targetted at you, though , sir Ron.)

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:19am | 05/05/11

      I’ve read the pig furphy ever since someone made up some crap about Black Jack Pershing after reading some Tom Clancy.

      The trouble is Ronald my dear chap, is that these jihadi fundy nutjobs believe that in the moment of martyrdom they are ‘made clean’ by Allah so that no matter what happens to their body afterwards i.e. being stuffed into pigs, have pigs blood thrown on them or buried with them etc it means nothing. They’ve been purified forever by their actions.

      Small wrinkle in the plan eh wot?

    • St. Michael says:

      12:17pm | 05/05/11

      @ TheRealDave: true, but rather more subtle an insult than pissing on his corpse.

    • John C says:

      06:33am | 05/05/11

      Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of BIn Laden’ killing, I can only agree with the British PM who said that the world is better off without him. None of us were in the fire fight and none of us can judge whether, in the heat of battle, they would have acted differently to the soldier or soldiers who shot him.

      As for those who are protesting that he was not accorded his civil rights, like Geoffrey Robinson and the multitude if writers on the ABC site basically writing the same opinion piece over and over, they were not at the scene, they do not know what happened, they do not know how they would have acted in the situation. If they feel strongly enough about it, perhaps, they generally being lawyers, they should offer their services to the military to accompany troops in missions like these and give in the spot legal advice. They may be well meaning but they are ignorant.

      In any event, in his own admissions, Osama was a soldier fighting a war against the Crusaders and was subject to the military risks that all soldiers face in a fire fight with the enemy. If they are bailed up, and refuse to surrender, they are shot. This was not a police action where the offender is overpowered, handcuffed, read his rights,escorted to the police station and allowed to call his lawyer.

    • L. says:

      09:08am | 05/05/11

      “None of us were in the fire fight..”

      Well, in all fairness, according to the White House, neither was Bin Laden wink

    • The Redman says:

      10:17am | 05/05/11

      “Osama was a soldier fighting a war against the Crusaders and was subject to the military risks that all soldiers face in a fire fight with the enemy.”

      Crap. He was a 54 year old man almost certainly suffering the early stages of kidney failure who was a mere figurehead and with little input into the day to day running of al-Qaeda. Even the US has admitted that.

      And even if he were classified as a soldier, which I dispute, he was unarmed and it is against the Geneva Convention to shoot an unarmed person, soldier or not, whether in battle or not. A soldier baled up and refusing to surrender and has a weapon and is using it is one thing. An unarmed man standing in a room with one other person is entirely another.

      Further, there is absolutely no evidence presented or suggested that bin Laden was ever given the chance to surrender.  As to whether a person like bin Laden should have been “overpowered, handcuffed, read his rights,escorted to the police station and allowed to call his lawyer”, the answer to than is yes.

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      11:11am | 05/05/11

      John C, Let’s not fuddle about. That bin Laden is dead is no loss to the world. I don’t know what a fire fight is. It’s too new a phrase for me but in WW1 and in WW2 prisoners were often summarily killed (murdered) when they surrendered simply because it was easier than the take them into custody. So be it! But that doesn’t make it right or legal under any convention.
      There is the Geneva Convention and the rules of war under the UN etc. And it is wise to remember the Nuremberg Principle. Human rights and justice are either universal or selective and if selective I have to pity the world my children and grand children will inherit. If the USA can summarily execute a terrorist why can’t Gadhafi summarily execute anyone who rebells or revolts against his regime - Who selects the right team. If the USA can’t be scrutinised for human rights violation then surely nor can China or even North Korea. A right is a right. When is murdering a murderer not murder?

    • Adam says:

      11:17am | 05/05/11

      @ Redman - It is perfectly legal to kill an unarmed enemy combatant, provided they have not surrendered. Hostile intent is all that is required. This is why bombing sleeping soldiers, sinking a naval vessel full of *unarmed* sailors (remember the merchant navy of WW2), blowing up a generals command centre or even shooting an unarmed soldier who is running back to a pillbox to take up his position on a machine gun are all perfectly acceptable. In this case, Osama was a general coordinating enemy activities. He was a legitimate enemy combatant. Had Osama surrendered he could have been considered an unarmed (disarmed) enemy combatant, however, Osama had not surrendered. He could have still had hostile intent (bomb vest, booby trapped room, etc) so he was engaged as a threat and killed.

    • Adam says:

      11:35am | 05/05/11

      @ Redman -

      P.S. I note you dispute OBL is a lawful combatant. He is also not a civilian. This is why some may argue he was an unlawful combatant. Unlawful combatants receive none of the protections afforded to civilians or uniformed soldiers (lawful combatants) as they are not in either category. Unlawful categories are actually in a similar category to spies in wartime and can be summarily executed without trial as they have no legal standing, no rights and no protections.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:14pm | 05/05/11

      @ Adam: although it has to be noted that the Nazis often resorted to the “You are a spy” defence as a justification for shooting POWs who escaped from their camps.  As in, they weren’t civilians, and weren’t uniformed combatants.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:49pm | 05/05/11

      P.S.: Similarly for members of the French Resistance, who likewise were not uniformed combatants but also unarmed civilians, either.

      I don’t jump on that just to go for “Gotcha” moments, it’s only to make the point that the Geneva Conventions have always been trying to do the impossible, which is impute a complete code of making war “civilised”.  Given their origins hearken back to the days of grapeshot and very silly hats for officers, working with the Geneva Conventions these days is basically trying to drive a Model T through the Dakar Rally.

      It’s a noble objective, no doubt; but it is to at least some extent a doomed objective, because war is never civilised.  When you strip it down to its fundamental, war comes down to the attempted, or successful, mass murder of the strongest and fittest of a generation of a country’s youth.  You can try and import Marquis of Queensbury rules onto that as much as you like, but the sheer scale and need for tactical shifts is always going to make it horribly difficult.

    • Adam says:

      01:25pm | 05/05/11

      @ St. Michael - I agree the “you are a spy so I can kill you without trial” line is often misused, as it was by the Nazi’s. I was just making the point to redman that not having a weapon in your hands doesn’t mean you are no longer a combatant or afford you protections under the Geneva Convention. I was also pointing out that as OBL was clearly not a civilian and since Redman disputed he was a soldier, then the only logical category left was unlawful combatant; a category that is presently afforded no rights (and those who belong to it can be summarily executed with trial).

      I guess, at the end of the day, the morals and ethics of how a war should be fought are always decided by the winner, who is generally in a position to apply their standards to their defeated adversary (i.e. via war crimes tribunals, etc). And as you say, while our current conventions may have a noble objective, they are doomed to some extent, because they cannot, and never will, reflect the contemporary environment (nor can they account for varied sets of morals, values, belief and laws that exist around the world for all the state and non state actors).

    • Steve says:

      01:31pm | 05/05/11

      I wonder what role the loss of the helicopter which was their exit transport had on the actions of the SEALS. OBL was in fact wanted “dead or alive”. If there was doubt about their capacity to take him away alive then to kill him was better than leaving him behind. Also without the helicopter the proximity to Pakastani military assets would have been especially worrying.

    • The Redman says:

      01:39pm | 05/05/11

      That may be true, Adam, I really don’t know. If that is the case, I will guess that has been invented up by the US. I, for one, had never heard the term “enemy combatant” prior to Bush desparate trying to find some sort of legal loophole which would allow him to circumvent the Convention. I guarantee you find “enemy combatant” in the Convention. In fact, that is the very basis of the US argument. The invent the term “enemy combatant”, then they look through the Geneva Convention, then they see “see, it’s not in the Geneva Convention, so therefore they’re fair game”.

      There is nothing in the Convention that allows for shooting an unarmed person. It is a crime, in fact, to do so. You may have a point, Adam, that an unarmed man may be shot down for refusing to surrender - although I seriously doubt that. But that presupposes that that person was given the opportunity TO surrender. Nothing I have heard, read and scene gives any indication that that occurred.

    • Adam says:

      03:06pm | 05/05/11

      @ Redman - “There is nothing in the Convention that allows for shooting an unarmed person”.

      I think this is where you are getting confused. An enemy combatant who demonstrates “hostile intent” can be shot, regardless of if they are armed and this does not breach the Geneva Convention. This is usually covered by military forces rules of engagement. Hostile intent is usually defined as a threat of imminent use of force, where imminent does not necessarily mean immediate or instantaneous.  It does require the individual to honestly believe that a hostile act will occur unless he or she intervenes. It is based on an assessment of all the facts known at the time and may be made at any level including by a Soldier or Sailor. The examples I provided in an earlier post indicate where the killing of an unarmed person demonstrating hostile intent may be appropriate. Another example may be if an *unarmed* soldier is on a hill acting as a spotter to call artillery onto your base using his radio. You identify him as a enemy combatant, intercept his radio transmission and indentify his hostile intent. As such it is fine to shoot him with a sniper, call in an air strike to hit his position, etc, despite him not necessarily holding a weapon in his hands. This is perfectly legal. Another example is a guy who you have just seen plant a bomb on the road. An allied convoy starts driving down the road and you see the guy readying his detonator. You do not have to wait until he actually detonates the bomb to kill him. You can do it immediately because he has demonstrated hostile intent, even if he does not have an AK in his hands. I don’t know the circumstance surrounding OBL’s death; however, I do know it is incorrect to state you cannot ever kill an unarmed person in a war without breaching the Geneva Convention. This is because you can kill unarmed enemy combatants demonstrating hostile intent and it is 100% legal.

      “But that presupposes that that person was given the opportunity TO surrender”

      The act of surrender is purely an individual decision and should be exercised as early as possible if you no longer wish to engage in hostilities. There is no requirement under the Geneva Convention for a soldier to provide an enemy combatant displaying hostile intent any opportunity to surrender before shooting them. Under the convention individuals displaying hostile intent can be treated exactly the same as someone running at you with a gun blazing.

      “I, for one, had never heard the term “enemy combatant” prior to Bush desparate trying to find some sort of legal loophole which would allow him to circumvent the Convention”.

      The term “enemy combatant” simply refers to both lawful and unlawful combatants on the opposite side in a war. The Geneva Convention does include a definition of “lawful combatants”, “non-combatants” and “unlawful combatants”. I’ve provided the basic definitions from the convention for info. It might be wise to try reading the convention before assuming what is(n’t) in it.

      Lawful Combatant:
      Lawful combatants are authorized by a government to engage in hostilities.  As such, they wear uniforms and carry their arms openly.  These units have fixed recognizable emblems and have a set chain of command.

      Non-Combatant :
      Individuals not involved in hostilities are considered non-combatants.
      Personnel formally in the status of lawful combatant become non-combatants once they are injured to the point they can no longer engage in hostilities.  Prisoners of War and those who surrender are also considered non-combatants.  Medical personnel and Chaplains are afforded non-combatant status under the Geneva Conventions as well.

      Unlawful Combatants:
      Today’s battlefield involves many individuals who engage in hostilities without meeting the requirements of lawful combatants mentioned above.  Unlawful combatants are commonly referred to as “insurgents”.  Although they have no chain of command or recognized emblems, they become lawful targets once they demonstrate hostile intent or engage in hostile actions.

      Back to my original point – It is incorrect to say the killing of OBL was illegal or breached the Geneva Convention. You can say it was unethical if you want (based on your own personal values), but it certainly isn’t illegal to kill an enemy combatant demonstrating hostile intent.

    • The Redman says:

      09:41pm | 05/05/11

      Nothing I’ve seen or heard indicates bin Laden showed “hostile intent” when the soldiers burst into the room - many minutes after they got their, so bin Laden would have known what was going down. He had no weapon. He was standing in the middle of the room, unarmed. Where is the hostile intent? Those soldiers were sent there to kill him, not to capture him. That’s my point.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:05am | 06/05/11

      @ Redman: nothing I’ve heard or seen says OBL was taken out after many minutes had passed.  There hasn’t been enough detail of the op released to presume that.  All we have is a 40 minute window on what we know at the moment.  The whole point of a covert surprise raid is to, y’know, secure the place quickly rather than get into a pitched battle.  If they didn’t find OBL until many minutes had passed, the possibility of him strapping a bomb to himself becomes greater, not less, because he’s got more time to prepare.  I’m guessing most of the boots on ground time was from the SEALS looting the joint, so to speak, of the computers and files, since they’re arguably a lot more precious than the corpse they’re policing onto the remaining chopper.

      As to whether there was a demonstrated hostile intent—aside from OBL apparently being unarmed, we don’t have any other details.  It’s speculation beyond that, but not speculation that eliminates the possibility of a kill shot being taken after OBL refuses to surrender.

      Consider the situation where a SEAL kicks down a door, finds OBL standing there in the middle of the room.  SEAL yells for OBL to get down on the ground, or surrender.  Wifey then throws herself at the SEAL.  OBL doesn’t move and doesn’t surrender.  Maybe he’s chanting Allahu Akbar much as the 9/11 hijackers did immediately ahead of crashing the planes.  Wifey gets one in the leg.  OBL still doesn’t move, keeps on chanting.  Wifey clears the line of fire; SEAL either demands OBL surrender again or presumes that because he’s praying, he’s about to go for a concealed bomb trigger.  Double tap happens.

      Or OBL starts to go for a desk, or moves anywhere other than to the floor.  Hostile intent’s demonstrated in that scenario because you have to presume he’s suicidal and simply wants to take people out with him.  Hostile intent doesn’t necessarily require an unequivocal action; refusing to surrender in these circumstances can demonstrate that.

    • Adam says:

      10:37am | 06/05/11

      @ Redman - See what you did there? You claimed that it was illegal to ever kill an unarmed man in a war and a breach of the Geneva Convention. I proved this wasn’t necessarily true.

      You then moved the goalposts and claimed the exception I mentioned where killing unarmed people was ok (hostile intent) didn’t apply to Bin Laden. St. Michael has demonstrated this is also not necessarily true either.

      I’d like to further add to St. Michael’s comments by saying that hostile intent can only be determined by the person that pulled the trigger, as per the above definition. You’re personal opinion of if there was hostile intent or not is irrelevant as you were not that individual.

      Either way, I now take it you acknowledge that there are circumstances when killing unarmed people in a war is legal (i.e. hostile intent)? And that OBL’s killing would have been legal if he had demonstrated hostile intent? This is the point I wanted to make.

    • Septimus says:

      07:10am | 05/05/11

      So many commentators apparently know what happened, even though they were not there.

    • chungo mung says:

      12:37am | 06/05/11

      nice call septo, but your wrong they found out all the facts on the news, so they all really do know exactly what went down. and tomorrow they will know a new version of what went down, and then over time they will choose to accept the bits that sit best with their overall outlook on life.

    • watty says:

      07:40am | 05/05/11

      Thank you Mr Toohey for another of your concise and apolitical reports.

      After listening to Obama’s Press guy dicking and weaving for the past two days it makes a pleasant change to have a quick but accurate summary from an Australian journalist

    • TracyH says:

      12:03pm | 05/05/11

      Believe me, Toohey is NOT always accurate. However on the whole, he’s better then most, I regret to concede.

    • Dweezy2176 says:

      07:52am | 05/05/11

      The media needs a life! Get over it He’s dead with a capital D & the world is a better place. I don’t care if he was in the bath playing with a rubber duckie when they shot him. Reality is alive he was a terrorist magnet, dead he’s yesterday’s news.
      More important is Juliar finding 770 million in handouts for teenagers as a bribe to stay in school, nothing for pensioners (as usual)  yet needed a Levy Tax because she couldn’t find enough money to fix Qld in Commonwealth coffers!
      Maybe a donation from the Carbon Tax to Bin Laden’s nearest & dearest to help get over the agony of his bathroom mishap & replace the duck, which had to be interred with the body according to the Al Qaeda Book of Terrorist Behaviour for Beginners.

    • fml says:

      09:46am | 05/05/11

      Never mind the pensioners they have had their day, time for the future!

      potential is much more intoxicating than history.

    • michael j says:

      10:40am | 05/05/11

      @ davo—that didn’t help at all,,i think the image of the kindly gent riding the donkey will be the one to persevere ,dare i say it,even on the PUNCH
      almost palm sunday like,,

    • Seano says:

      08:15am | 05/05/11

      Personally I would like to have seen the bloke tried and made to take his punishment under the rule of law. But I wouldn’t argue that Bin Laden being kill was possibly the best result and the one being most sought by the US government.

      What I would say in the defence of the Seals involved is that these where very dangerous people. People who have been known to use suicide bombers. Therefore I think even the slightest provocation or resistance could be considered a threat to the lives of the soldiers involved and they responded reasonably and accordingly.

      Lets not forget those soldiers had no way of knowing what back up forces Bin Laden had or what the reaction of Pakistani government forces would be.

    • majority says:

      08:18am | 05/05/11

      America wanted him dead
      Bin Laden gets to be a martyr
      Win-win situation, good riddance

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      08:20am | 05/05/11

      1. Bin Laden lived strolling distance from a Pakistani military base.
      2. Both Pakistan and the US knew he was there for some time.
      3. Bin Laden felt safe in this environment, so close to a Pakistani military base.
      5. The US kills him on foreign soil which would normally be considered an act of war.
      6. Pakistan doesn’t care.
      7. The body is quickly buried at sea before an autopsy is performed.

      Bin Laden was either a foreign asset backstabbed and killed while working for the US and Pakistan or he never really existed at all. Why kill him now? Is Obama running for President again?

    • L. says:

      09:18am | 05/05/11

      “5. The US kills him on foreign soil which would normally be considered an act of war.”

      No, it’s a murder, not an act of war.

    • Septimus says:

      10:01am | 05/05/11

      I love the irony in your name, Sad Sad Reality.  Especially because you are so out out touch with it.

    • Michael says:

      10:10am | 05/05/11

      I don’t know Nancy Drew, why don’t you go find out. You could start a new WikiLeaks. Hurry, no time to waste!

    • Seano says:

      10:30am | 05/05/11

      “No, it’s a murder, not an act of war. “

      Also the US had told Pakistan in advance that “all bets are off” if Bin Laden was found on their soil which to my knowledge Pakistan had not objected to.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      01:47pm | 05/05/11

      @L. Foreign military carrying out a hit on your sovereign soil is an act of war.

      @Septimus. Your comment showcased the creativity and insight of a Kim Kardashian art installation.

      @Micheal. See above.

      @Seano. Nice dodge. Where are the photos of the body? They will not be released. You know who doesn’t release stuff? People with something to hide.

    • Steve says:

      02:02pm | 05/05/11

      SSR. Is it war when Mossad or the Russians kill people on foreign soil?  If so the whole world would be at war. If the Pakastani’s feel strongly about it they could declare war on the USA. Or perhaps a safer approach would be to return the USD1,300,000,000.00 in foreign aid they receive each year from the USA.  The USA simply cashed a couple of chips in.

    • Seano says:

      02:22pm | 05/05/11

      “@Seano. Nice dodge. Where are the photos of the body? They will not be released. You know who doesn’t release stuff? People with something to hide. “

      Hang on who’s dodging? My contention was that there could be no act of war when Pakistan where both forewarned and did not object before or after.

      Now you’ve changed the argument to be that not releasing the photos is somehow sinister. Which shows just how shaky the ground is under your argument.

      That said, lets address the non release of photos. What’s to be gained from releasing them? Will conspiracy theorists go away? No. Will any more or less people accept that he is dead? Seems unlikely. Will this inflame tensions with Bin Laden’s supporters? Quite possibly. Is it in poor taste? Definitely. Is it the act of a civilised society? No.Will people feel better after seeing Bin Laden’s body? Some will and some wont. Some will gloat and cheer and create memes and some will be disgusted.

      There is little to gain and a lot to lose by releasing the photos. Even after they are released the crazies are only going to scream “fake”. So why bother?

      Your whole pretence that they’ve know where Bin Laden was for “some time” and are only just now removing him because Obama needs a boost in the polls is patently silly. Why then did Bush not do the same thing right near the end of his term giving a push to McCain/Palin.

      Unless you’re going to conveniently define “some time” as after Bush.

    • Septimus says:

      02:34pm | 05/05/11

      Sad,

      Who’s Kim Kardashian?

    • St. Michael says:

      03:55pm | 05/05/11

      @ Septimus:

      I’d understood Kim Kardashian was the US’s latest Weapon of Mass Distraction.

      Of course, technological advancement is always ongoing.  The Situation and Snooki appear to be the Mark II version of lil’ Kim.

    • iansand says:

      08:20am | 05/05/11

      My guess is that the instructions were that bin Laden should be captured if it could be done with a 100% guarantee that there would be no additional risk to US forces.  An entirely reasonable and sensible instruction.  In the circumstances it was also a death sentence. C’est la guerre.

    • Sammy J says:

      08:20am | 05/05/11

      I’m sorry Toohey, but you’re naive in the extreme. This was a raid on a compound which housed heavily armed terrorists. If the people inside do not immediately surrender, ie lie face down on the ground with arms and legs spread, they ARE presenting a threat. Don’t you realise how easy it is to activate a bomb, pull the pin on a grenade, or even pull out an AK from under the bed in less than a second? This is war, not NSW police responding to loiterers at Westfield shopping centre. It’s so easy for arm chair journalists such as yourself to call these soldiers murderers, but the truth of the matter is that you do not need to be pointing a firearm at somebody to present a threat.

    • Eskimo says:

      08:30am | 05/05/11

      Just post the Helmet-cam footage on YouTube and be done with it. Otherwise there will be nutters still believing he’s living in a villa in a Buenos Aires suburb between Hitler and Jimmy Hoffa.

    • Seano says:

      08:43am | 05/05/11

      I think the nutters and conspiracy theorists are going to believe what ever suits them no matter what they post as proof.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:48am | 05/05/11

      Exactly. Photos and DNA reports won’t satisfy them so why bother?  I can take their word for it.

    • Simon says:

      08:37am | 05/05/11

      give him a chance to explain himself? heaven forbid!!

    • Bev says:

      09:46am | 05/05/11

      He allready had on multiple videos and pronouncements he made. There is more than enough evidence to convict him of a multitude of crimes.

    • rajend naidu says:

      08:39am | 05/05/11

      what resistance did an unarmed osama offer an armed elite american commando? the article poses this very basic question.a sensible question. but the reality here is there is no questioning the American decision to do what it decided to do. even the editorial of the Australian seems to be of the view that the American’s are infallible!! Strange, isn’t it?

    • Al says:

      09:31am | 05/05/11

      rajend:

      “what resistance did an unarmed osama offer an armed elite american commando?”

      A few days ago a suicide bomber killed several people in Afghanistan. He was 12 years old. One does not have to be a mean looking brute with a big gun to present a real danger to a team of commandos.

    • The Redman says:

      09:49am | 05/05/11

      Are you suggesting that bin Laden had a bomb strapped around himself, ready to detonate it at a moments notice? Interesting theory. Interesting, and stupid.

    • Septimus says:

      10:17am | 05/05/11

      Redman,

      No more stupid than your taking his example out of context.  Al was suggesting you don’t know what he has access to, so you don’t allow him the opportunity to access anything.  That’s not stupid, that’s basic tactical 101.

    • Matt says:

      10:36am | 05/05/11

      Redman - Would you honestly put it past him?

    • rajend naidu says:

      08:46am | 05/05/11

      If the Americans decide to F%#! you then you are F%#!@d. Ask Geronimo people they will confirm it. with the Americans it’s an old phenomenon. even Obama’s people in Africa and Amerika will confirm this…

    • Muttley says:

      12:28pm | 05/05/11

      this has been coming for ten years. The yanks may be lacking in some of their international relations, but one thing is clear. You kill 3000 Americans on their own soil and regardless of time or distance, you will pay. Not a bad concept for these cowards to get their heads around. Shame our own government doesnt possess the same level of intestinal fortitude.

    • jarred says:

      08:47am | 05/05/11

      So the rule of law has become inconvenient. After world war 2 the leading Nazis were put on trial for their crimes, charges were brought forth, evidence was weighed, men who were guilty met justice, a few were even found not guilt based on the evidence. The Nuremberg trials were the greatest expression of western values in a dark time for the world, however there was one leader who wanted to do away with the trials and just summarily execute the lot of them that leader was Stalin, it is sad that sixty years later we are more in line with Starlins values.

    • Cease the sanctimonious bleating says:

      09:47am | 05/05/11

      Once the Nazi’s had surrendered, then they where subject to trials. Until then while the war was ongoing it was & remains legitimate to kill enemy leaders. The USA send fighters to shot down Admiral Isoroya Yamamoto, many attempts were made to kill Hilter, snipers are trained to kill officers. Better the leaders die then the young people they send to do their killing & dieing for them.

      OBL is dead, less people will be murdered or become murderers becouse a symbol of evil is gone. The rules you keep trying to apply do not apply, war has it’s own rules. Furthermore the rule of law exists to save lives, not kill people in blind misapplication. 

      The rule of law is not a god, like fire it is a tool, powerful & useful but it cannot be used all the time for every problem. The process of the law is meant to achive a better world to live in, but like all processes it is not an end in itself. The better world is the reason for it’s existance. The world is better becouse rules designed for civil life & population control were not incorrectly applied where they do not apply.

      In any event the Nuremberg trials where a farce, the soviet ones nothing more then show trials, the western ones over reached by convicting people for crimes that did not exist when they did them. While ignoring the allies own actions, the mass fire bombing of women & children, a war crime even before WW2, at least Curtis Lemay had the honestly to admit it.

    • Mark says:

      09:51am | 05/05/11

      It is Churchhill not Stalin who wanted to simply execute them. Stalin got what he wanted, Soviet Show Trials.

    • James says:

      09:54am | 05/05/11

      Quite right.  The callous disregard for the value of human life is what got us into this stupid war or terror in the first place.

      It is sad that after 60 years, the values of western democracies seem to be going backwards.

    • The Redman says:

      10:36am | 05/05/11

      “The USA send fighters to shot down Admiral Isoroya Yamamoto”

      Sigh. What rubbish. Yes, the aircraft in which Yamamoto was shot down. The US had absolutely no idea he was aboard.

      War, in theory at least, does have it’s own rules. It’s called the Geneva Convention. And the US has ignored those laws during this entire period. You can say so does al-Qaeda, and it would be true. But that is irrelevant. The US cannot claim a moral position when it uses the self same tactics. And the US is a signatory of the Geneva Convention, as is Australia. Al-Qaeda is not.

    • marley says:

      10:56am | 05/05/11

      @Redman - al qaeda isn’t a signatory to the Geneva Conventions because, rather obviously, it isn’t a country.  It is, in fact, an organization of unlawful combatants.  And no, George W. didn’t invent that term - it’s been around for a hundred years or so.  And the rules when dealing with unlawful combatants are not the same as those when you’re dealing with national armies.  Rules there still are, and arguably the US has violated at least some of them, but you cannot apply the Convention provisions for soldiers to Al Qaeda.

    • Erick says:

      10:56am | 05/05/11

      @ Redman - Bzzzt, wrong!

      The US knew Yamamoto was aboard the plane because its intelligence service had cracked Japanese codes. The mission was specially launched to kill Yamamoto. Normally US fighters would not have travelled so deep into Japanese territory just to shoot down one plane.

    • Sandra says:

      08:51am | 05/05/11

      This is the most degrading debate I have ever heard. Bin Laden is dead. The USA found him, conducted an exercise to capture or kill him and did the latter. NOTHING went wrong. EVERYTHING went right.
      So why the hoo haa? Why the analysis, the comments, the opinions from journalists (this is called making their living) and the public (strangely no one I know or hear expressing their relief gives a damn about whether the outcome was kill or capture).
      The USA have a right to celebrate if they want to - so do we Australians. Some will choose to celebrate, others won’t. That is called democracy.
      I am not celebrating but hearing the news, I suddenly felt very emotional. Perhaps because I thought he would never be caught (either captured or killed) but was probably dead already, and that would have left something very important unresolved. It has been resolved. Thank you to all involved.
      To me this whole debate is more about (a) prolonging a good news story and (b) shock & horror that the Yanks for once have conducted themselves with distinction, class and seamlessly to “get Bin Laden”. 
      Now, out of respect for decent Muslims and the victims of all Bin Laden initiated violence, lets all take a deep breath - and be grateful.

    • fml says:

      09:50am | 05/05/11

      SO now that he is dead, are America going to leave afghanistan?

      Wasnt that the whole point of invading Afghanistan in the first place?

      Are the soldiers finally going to go home to their families?

    • The Redman says:

      09:57am | 05/05/11

      What is degrading about upholding the rule of law? If you have a system of justice, then it is a system for all, not just for those whom you choose to have protection under that system. I believe that the US never had any intention of taking bin Laden alive. The version of the attack from the US proves that. The attack took 40 minutes. Bin Laden, being on the highest floor of the compound, would have had a great deal of time to decide what to do - whether to arm himself and make a stand or not. Yet he died unarmed, his woman flinging herself between her husband and his erstwhile killers. It was deliberate, I’ve no doubt about that.

      The US had to have him dead. The last thing they would want is for bin Laden to stand in a public forum and detail the level of assistance he and his fellow mujahadeen-cum-al-Qaeda received from the US during the 1980’s.

    • Erick says:

      10:31am | 05/05/11

      FML, the point of invading Afghanistan was to depose a regime that sheltered and supported Islamic terrorism. The point of staying in Afghanistan is to try and make sure such a regime doesn’t arise there again.

      The death of one man changes nothing - though it may provide a convenient excuse for some players to do what they would like to do anyway.

    • fml says:

      11:04am | 05/05/11

      Errick,

      the point is the US will always find an enemy to invade,

      after WW2, Korea, Vietnam, China, Iran, Iraq, Communism, Drugs and Terror. they are not going to make friends as long as their foreign policy follows the tip of their gun.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:11am | 05/05/11

      Erick, stop speaking sense. According to these clowns they think we only went into Afghanistan to ‘git Bin Laden’....hell, it wasn’t even 10 years ago and they’ve forgotten - or more likely never gave a toss, but it suits their argument to just make crap up now.

      For the simple, we never went into Afghanistan to ‘get bin Laden’. We went in to not only get him but also to destroy Al Queda in that country and get rid of the regime i.e. the Taliban, that sheltered, supported and worked with Al Queda and bin Laden. We’ve done all that….but the pesky Taliban keep coming back which is why we are still there, as you may have noticed. Mainly because we’ve never made a real commitment to getting rid of them once and for all and we pussyfoot aroudn with the barest minimum we can possibly send.

    • JT says:

      11:21am | 05/05/11

      Simple Sandra, leftist fools like the two above me are obviously upset at his death by ‘‘The Great Satan’’ but rather than come out and admit that they post long diatribes about justice and rules of law and other pointless dribble that has no relevance to a firefight conducted as part of a war.

    • fml says:

      11:35am | 05/05/11

      Jt,

      Is it a firefight when only one person has a gun?

    • Geoffrey Robinson says:

      12:18pm | 05/05/11

      @jt, interesting hypothetical “when only one person has a gun”.

      Perhaps you can advise us what the seal should have done, jt. “Err excuse me, Mr Laden, or should I call you Bin. Err, Are you carrying a fire -arm, a weapon of any kind, or explosives strapped to your body at this particular moment in time?” Crack up.

      @Redman, “What is degrading about upholding the rule of law?”. Nothing. Its just that no-one in the west upholds it nowadays. Lawyers are too busy undermining it to enhance their bottom line.

    • fml says:

      12:39pm | 05/05/11

      Sir Geoffrey,

      Im pretty sure they are taught to deal with such situations.

    • Kika says:

      01:53pm | 05/05/11

      And how satisfying to the American public would it be if the Americans finally received hard intelligence that Osama had died years ago with kidney failure.
      “Yeah remember all that money we spent finding him? Well he died of natural causes before we could locate him”

      It’s all lies. All lies. I don’t believe a single thing the Americans do because they’ve got too much vested interest in making sure they succeed in whatever it is their fighting for.

    • Meerkat says:

      01:57pm | 05/05/11

      @FML,

      American troops are generally trained to protect themselves first and foremost. Anything you do that doesn’t obey them telling you to get down on your stomach, face into the floor and hands on the back of your head probably is and should be interpreted as a hostile action. Hostile actions are met with force as it should be. You don’t take a chance with your own life in those situations and to try and claim anyone should do otherwise is insane.

    • MarvinM says:

      02:17pm | 05/05/11

      In reply to FML

      You do know that when the seahawk choppers landing the SEAL team came close to Osamas compound small arms fire started coming out of the building.
      It was a red hot firefight for the SEALS going into the compound, and you expect the SEAL operators to behave like gentle policemen.
      The loonacy of some these left wing commentators here astounds me. Surely theres a lot of Trolling going on. Nobody can be that thick

    • fml says:

      03:02pm | 05/05/11

      Meerkat, Marvin,

      Assuming they told him to get on the floor and put his hands behind his head.

      Tsk, Tsk Marvin, have i touched a nerve? go get your blanky and i’ll tuck you into bed, you sound all tuckered out dear.

    • Marvinm says:

      03:28pm | 05/05/11

      So are you presuming he put his hands up and said to the big bad team of men holding guns up ‘arrest me please’?

      Osama would have known what was coming to him and humiliation if he surrendered so i dont see why he would have been willing to be taken alive when he was cornered.

    • Sarah says:

      09:10am | 05/05/11

      I will leave the decision on what is and is not possible and desirable in a CT raid to the trained experienced professionals, not a bunch of armchair critics whose knowledge of CT Ops extends to reading Rainbow Six by Tom Clancy.
      If the SEALs needed to pop him, they needed to pop him, it’s not up to you or me, sitting in our lounge rooms a thousand miles away, to decide that they didn’t need to.

    • The Redman says:

      10:11am | 05/05/11

      How professional are the SEALS if a terrified woman launching herself and heavily armed and armoured troops causes them to spray the room with bullets in panic? They’re way too professional for that. The SEAL’s didn’t need to “pop” him. They were ordered to.

    • Muttley says:

      12:34pm | 05/05/11

      An easy call to make, safely hiding behind your keyboard. These cowards make regular use of explosives. If he even reached his hand towards his pocket that was an unacceptable risk. If he didnt want a bullet in the brain then perhaps he shouldnt have attacked the American civilians?

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:32pm | 05/05/11

      lol, panic? Putting one through his eye isn’t evidence of ‘panic’ just good good shooting. These guys are highly trained professionals, not ordinary grunts kicking in doors. They run these CQB drills more times than you’ve had hot feeds. Maybe read up on SEAL Team 6 and learn something instead of spouting utter tosh?

    • rajend naidu says:

      09:12am | 05/05/11

      I am 100 % with jarred : so the rule of law has indeed become inconvenient and political inexpedient. But when you dispense with the rule of law - in dealing with criminals small, medium, large, extra large - what are you left with? Yes, the law of the jungle! The law of the caveman… Some apparently have no qualms about that even though they are living in the year 2011.

    • Muttley says:

      12:36pm | 05/05/11

      when criminals kill 3000 people then yes, lets do away with the pesky laws and simply puty a bullet between their eyes. I have zero problem with that. But the bleeding heart crowd are what the terrorist play on to keep their deadly games going.

    • Tom says:

      01:36pm | 05/05/11

      The law is an ass? No. In Australia, the law is a whore.

    • David says:

      09:24am | 05/05/11

      The unarmed thing is getting my goolies a bit riled right now, so just on that…

      Conversations about shooting an unarmed man I’ve overheard, read or engaged in debate with more often than not are completely out of context or perspective.  That is, comparing Bin Laden and the fact that he turned out to be unarmed, with the cowboy in the Western movie or the hapless victim of a king hit are entirely misdirected and bordering on stupid.

      Militant, idealistic terrorists engage in all manner of trickery and deceit to advance their cause and have done for years.  They have to.  Bin Laden, whether directly or via ideology was responsible for the violent and summary murder of thousands of people right across the world (both geographical and religious).  His only distinction - for the purposes of their ideology - are his brand of Muslim and non-Muslim.  If one was non-Muslim then you were branded an enemy combatant and therefore targeted to die by Al Qaeda (and others groups’ decree).

      When suicide bombers sneak into bazaars with bomb belts strapped to them, it isn’t on the outside like some superhero with a neon sign pointing to their whereabouts; it’s concealed and hidden.  Much like a possible weapon or bomb pack might be under the cloak of a highly intelligent man who knew that the actions he’d wrought would one day come back knocking on his door, and probably when he least expected it.

      Now, I don’t know for sure whether he could’ve been taken alive or not.  I don’t know for sure if he was warned once, twice, three times or not at all (mind you, if I was facing the business end of a crowd of Navy SEAL guns then I’d dance the Macarena naked if they asked me to).  Seconds would feel like minutes in that kind of situation but I don’t know for sure just how intense it would be.  Very few people do, least of all the side-liners that we all are (and I mean that with all respect because that’s what were are; this isn’t Call Of Duty on X-Box or something like that).

      In my opinion, that he wasn’t captured is regretful.  But it doesn’t alter the fact that philosophically and practically he was guilty, the USA’s most wanted man, a key linchpin in motivating a terrorist movement and ideology and had to be stopped.  An intelligence process led to a decision that set in motion a dangerous operation to make it so.

      The outcome is what it is and while no, I don’t agree that a ‘celebration’ of the killing of another human being is right (no matter how evil), bringing all of these questions and criticisms over what could’ve and should’ve happened completely miss the point.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:20am | 05/05/11

      “this isn’t Call Of Duty on X-Box or something like that).”

      Depends which photoshopped version of the Situation Room images you look at. raspberry

    • rajend naidu says:

      09:25am | 05/05/11

      If EVERYTHING went right no debate would have been necessary. I wonder whether that has crossed Sandra’s mind? Also having a public debate on issues such as this one is what a democracy is about. I wonder if this has crossed Sandra’s mind? But I forget: critical thinking is not meant for everyone.

    • Muttley says:

      12:40pm | 05/05/11

      and a dose of realism isnt for everyone either. I guess some people prefer to live in their virtual worlds where everyone is allowed to do whatever they like. Lets bring him back and we can all sit around the big padded table and share our feelings. He orchestrated the largest attack on American CIVILIANS ever. He has now paid for it.

    • Tom says:

      02:21pm | 05/05/11

      @rajend, “If EVERYTHING went right no debate would have been necessary”. No Rajend, critical thinking is wonderful and debate is always necessary, regardless of what is right. I love it.

      However, having observed the debate and after taking into consideration the risks to my country and innocent people, I am with the SEALS. The lawyers and the lefties can suit themselves.

    • Mensur Cehic says:

      09:36am | 05/05/11

      @Paul Toohey

      “Vision of the American military conducting Muslim burial rites could cause real problems.”

      —Not necessarily. It may have been conducted by a Muslim Chaplain.

    • John says:

      09:49am | 05/05/11

      “I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children, and other humans as an appreciable act. There exists a government within the government of the United States. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks…. The United States should trace the perpetrators of these attacks to those persons who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own nation could survive.”

      - Osama Bin Laden (Source: BBC)

      This makes sense when you see the towers collapsing via explosives.

    • Septimus says:

      09:55am | 05/05/11

      See any planes at all that day?

      None????

    • The Redman says:

      10:08am | 05/05/11

      Well, I’m not sure about the conspiracy theory, but I think the point is here that bin Laden never claimed responsibility for the attack, although he may have made statements supporting it. I’m not aware of any concrete evidence that bin Laden even had forewarning of the attack, let alone ordered it or planned it.

      Another thing which annoys me is the claim that the attack on the USS Cole was a terrorist attack. It wasn’t. bin Laden had already warned that he and his supporters were at “war” with the US. Hence, as a warship, the USS Cole was a legitimate target.

      Without diminishing the horror of the attacks on 11 September in any way, is there a difference, if one accepts that war existed between the US and al-Qaeda, between the bombing of Dresden and this event - aside from the fact that at least 100,000 people perished in Dresden.

      No doubt that the September attacks where an appalling and brutal act, but why is it an act of terrorism to use aircraft and an act of war to use 4000 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs?

    • Red says:

      10:13am | 05/05/11

      John, you know that that colander is better used for washing vegies than for wearing on your head to block the guvvamint mind-reader rays.

      You’d be the worst judge in the world. “Oh the accused said he didn’t do it? OK case dismissed.”

    • james says:

      10:58am | 05/05/11

      John
      While Bin Laden initiallyy denied involvement in the September 11 attacks he made numerous subsequent confirmations of his involvement. He has also cliamed direct responsibility for a host of other major terrorist attacks prior to and after 2001. And the idea that explosions brought down the twin towers has been de-bunked many, many times. Have a read of this site before making any more absurd claims http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

    • Glen says:

      11:21am | 05/05/11

      “This makes sense when you see the towers collapsing via explosives” - oh I see so clearly the jet airliners flown by terrorists had nothing to do with the collapse. The 9/11 conspiracy nutjobers border on treason. Australians were killed that day to.

    • John says:

      11:25am | 05/05/11

      Either way it doesn’t matter what so called osama says anyway.
      Involved or not involved. The video evidence pretty states he was not involved since explosives were in the WTC towers.

      If you want to argue with me about 32 central core pillars which were all stuck together, made out STEEL. You think one plane made out of weapon aluminum could of wiped that out? Then claim a little bush fire? melted it? and the building collapsed? You could of fired 100, 747’s 400’s at the tower with jet fuel, and i bet you the building wouldn’t collapse, and even if it did, it would never collapsed in a straight line like happened on sept11 and it wouldn’t even be a full collapse maybe just partial collapse.. Then you have WTC 7 which did a FULL collapse in a straight LINE and no plane hit it. That must of been an Al-Qaeda Miracle right?

    • Glen says:

      11:43am | 05/05/11

      F’ing BS! Where is your engineering degree from? The University of Tehran?

      Ah Troll feed - slaps self.

    • james says:

      11:51am | 05/05/11

      No John,  just simple engineering. What you seem to be forgetting about the fire in the World Trade Towers is that the planes were both fully laden with jet fuel (surprisingly) which burns at an intense heat capable of melting steel. As many structual engineers have stated, the fires in the WTC’s was more than enough to critically weaken the support pillars. Same goes for WTC 7, no planes hit it but a whole lot of debris and jet fuel sure did. And why would it not fall vertically? Are you a structual engineer? Are you saying you know more about structual engineering than structual engineers? And why no traces of explosives? Given that it would have required thousands of tons of explovsives to bring down buildings of that size do you not think it is a little strange that no traces of explovsives were found? You story leaks like a sieve John.

    • Seano says:

      11:55am | 05/05/11

      “Then claim a little bush fire? melted it?”

      Misrepresenting the facts doesn’t make your argument strong it just makes you sound slightly unhinged.

    • Aitch B says:

      12:05pm | 05/05/11

      John = Echo

      Today’s pile of bovine excrement is the same as yesterday’s.

      BTW…  it’s “could have”, not “could of” and “must have”, not “must of”

    • John says:

      12:19pm | 05/05/11

      Comon! even the steel was covered via firing proofing. But when the plane it hit it removed it all! amazing! Then you have engineers stating the building was designed to take multiple strikes from planes. Have you guys seen the Madrid building that burned for like 3 days and never collapsed? What i heard the they shipped the steel off the china very quickly, so there was no investigation on the why the tower collapsed using evidence, since it was shipped to china very quickly. The building also have three strong cores, which would of stooped any of the above core from coming down. The only way for the building to have collapse like that would of core had be destroyed on every level down from the plane crash and plus the outer paper need to also be destroyed. It would of never pancakeed without explosives destroying the core and the outer support. I don’t have an engineering degree, but i have worked in construction. I’ve seen civil engineering work.

    • Seano says:

      12:42pm | 05/05/11

      Well if you’ve got hearsay and anecdotal evidence then I’m convinced.

    • Steve says:

      12:52pm | 05/05/11

      The Redman. Sometimes the difference between war crime and legitimate act of war boils down to who won the war and is able to establish the accepted history. I remember an interview with Robert Mcnamara who was involved with the planning of the incendary bombing of Tokyo, a city basically made of wood. He was an old man at the time but I was surprised to hear him say that he believed had the USA lost the war he would have expected to be prosecuted for war crimes.

      Having said that I don’t believe Dresden was a war crime. whilst it was starterd by the Germans the targetting of strategically or industrially important civillian areas had become standard practice by the time Dresden was hit at it’s worst. Munitions were being manafactured in Dresden and it was an important junction city particularly between the western and eastern fronts. The Russians who were under siege particuarly requested it to be targetted to take pressure off them. The Dresden firestorm was not a special effort just the result of a progressively accelerated program, progressively skilled air crews, No German fighter interception,perfect weather and visibility, lack of german defences of their own accord(air defences and bunkers etc), lack of preparation of the civillian population believing that Dresden would be spared, This confluence of events simply mean that the allied bombers got it right that night.

    • Septimus says:

      01:04pm | 05/05/11

      Time to stop feeding John…I think it’s pretty clear he honestly has no clue.

    • james says:

      01:30pm | 05/05/11

      John your story just gets crazier with each post. How do you seriously expect someone to believe that somehow thousands of tons of explosives were planted in a highly secure buiding without a single person noticing it. And still, all traces of said explosives just magically vanish from the debris. How is that even remotely plausible? Tell me, do controlled demolitions start from the top or the bottom of buildings?

      As for your other claim here is what the Centre for Advanced Structural Engineering at the University of Sydney has to say:
      “It is possible that the blaze, started by jet fuel and then engulfing the contents of the offices, in a highly confined area, generated fire conditions significantly more severe than those anticipated in a typical office fire. These conditions may have overcome the building’s fire defences considerably faster than expected. It is likely that the water pipes that supplied the fire sprinklers were severed by the plane impact, and much of the fire protective material, designed to stop the steel from being heated and losing strength, was blown off by the blast at impact.

      Eventually, the loss of strength and stiffness of the materials resulting from the fire, combined with the initial impact damage, would have caused a failure of the truss system supporting a floor, or the remaining perimeter columns, or even the internal core, or some combination. Failure of the flooring system would have subsequently allowed the perimeter columns to buckle outwards….Once one storey collapsed all floors above would have begun to fall. The huge mass of falling structure would gain momentum, crushing the structurally intact floors below, resulting in catastrophic failure of the entire structure.”

      Now I’m sure that your experience working in construction surely out weighs this informed, objective analysis, but you will have to forgive the rest of us who think that your argument is total bs.

    • The Redman says:

      01:56pm | 05/05/11

      Actually, Steve, not technically correct, although it is fair to say that the German’s where the first to introduce large numbers of bombings targeting civilian areas.

      Prior to the Blitz, the German’s targeted mostly RAF airports and some radar. No civilian areas. It has been agreed by all historians that the first time the Luftwaffe dropped bombs on a civilian regions was accidental. It was an error in navigation - easy considering the blackouts in force and no radar, of course. Churchill responded with a raid on Berlin, virtually completely inaffectual tactically, but it enraged Goring, who had promised that a bomb would never fall on Berlin.

      That’s basically when the target shifted to London. As it happens, it was a catastrophic decision and a saviour for the RAF who were a matter of weeks from destruction.

    • Steve says:

      02:50pm | 05/05/11

      Redman. The Germans started civillian bombing in WW1. The ramping up of civilian bombing took place in WW2. Germans bombed Coventry prior to Berlin. I have never read any account other than Coventry being a deliberate attack. V1 and V2 rockets could never discriminate between civilian and military targets. In any case my response to your post was to rebut your claim that Dresden was a war crime and I don’t think your last response focused on that issue.

    • The Redman says:

      09:47pm | 05/05/11

      Where did I say Dresden was a war crime, Steve? I’m asking what the difference is between planes smashing into buildings and bombs smashing into buildings. Are they not both as appalling? People die either way.

    • Steve says:

      01:22pm | 06/05/11

      The Redman. My apologies I have incorrectly infered from your post.

    • pj says:

      10:04am | 05/05/11

      In the killing of osama (alledged) I can only say no proof no truth.And to add,I fail to see how a photo could possibly enrage the muslim infidels anymore than they already are!

    • Septimus says:

      10:20am | 05/05/11

      To the US and the SEALS, thank you for a job extremely well done.  Some of us appreciate we wouldn’t exist as a nation without your protection.

    • Jenni says:

      03:00pm | 05/05/11

      x2 smile

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      10:35am | 05/05/11

      ‘Davo Wake up to yourself.

      This column is supposed to be comments on Seriousness, misery, government intrgue and conspiricy and extremism.

      I open your attachment and what do I get?  comedy, frivolity, joy, humour.

      A half hour wasted laughing instead of pulling my hair out wrestling over the ‘yes or no’ ‘good or bad’ ‘right or wrong’.

      We are told what they want us to know; what they want us to believe; what is ‘best for us’. US?

      Dig deep (if you can) find evidence to the contrary of any goverment release and you could find yourself committed to a loony bin or a cemetery.

      These are not the happy carefree days of forty years ago. There is no room in todays mans mind for jokes.

      Check these out.

      The real:

      Pres. Kennedy was picked up by a submarine in Dallas and now runs a pizza shop in Moscow.

      The film showing children being thrown was reversed and was really showing children being plucked from the water after a whale knocked them in.

      Hiroshima was not bombed as no plane could travel that far. Really the city was bulldozed and the ‘photos’ of the explosion (look close) were paintings strung together by Walt Disney.

      The world was created in (our) 1800. All the so called history was written by politicians in 1881. All the atrifacts, bones, old buildings were placed by alians.

      Aussiewazza is handsome.

      Get your mind around that lot.

    • Malleeringneck says:

      10:40am | 05/05/11

      I bet all the people who are now saying that Bin Laden should not have been killed were saying the opposite when those jet planes were piloted into the Trade Centre in New York.
      If not, maybe they should leave Australia and go live in some country in the East that is run by Muslims.

    • fml says:

      11:50am | 05/05/11

      Maybe you should organise a coup and then kick out everybody that you dont like, because it seems like you have something against democracy and freedom.

    • Malleeringneck says:

      10:40am | 05/05/11

      I bet all the people who are now saying that Bin Laden should not have been killed were saying the opposite when those jet planes were piloted into the Trade Centre in New York.
      If not, maybe they should leave Australia and go live in some country in the East that is run by Muslims.

    • cynic says:

      10:42am | 05/05/11

      Always nice to read so many talking about something they know so little about. but think they do. One rule in politics, diplomacy & war is never believe what you read or are told. That is a sure way to make wrong calls/judgements. Mnay like those say 9/11 was an american plot will pore over the entrails of this and come up with all sorts of versions. The fact remains, if bin laden was captured, imagine the muslim fanatics capturing infidels, demanding his release & when not getting it decapiting alive the poor infidel bastards on the web for the world to watch, as they have before! That is the nasty truth & death, despite what robertson says, though true in a perfect world, which ours is not, is misplaced. He does defend bin laden but his purist view is simply misplaced in this situation. He would likley agree with that but says the right thing and we are the better for it.

      Bin laden declered war on all non-muslims and his followers took up that call. In this war there are no rules of engagement aprt from the strong survive and does whatever it takes to survive.

    • Anna C says:

      10:43am | 05/05/11

      Why is how he died this still such as issue? Who cares how, I’m just glad he’s dead. Why are journalists devoting so much time and effort to this story? Surely there are more important issues to deal with in this world? Seriously who cares whether he was assassinated, hit by a bus, or choked on a chicken bone. The bastard is dead thank God ... we should all be rejoicing.

    • Lee says:

      02:11pm | 05/05/11

      um because he threatened our democratic way of life and then we do something like this- talk about contradictory. How is justice actually meant to proceed under a democratic society? I am glad he is off the list too, but someone worse will just replace him to cause more havic on the infidels that killed their hero. I care about how he was killed because I dont want to be the poor bugger that has to make the ultimate sacrifce in the war on terror- you know the person who was just going about my business one day, the innocent civilian.

    • Stiffy says:

      10:54am | 05/05/11

      Any thoughts on the Bilderberg group or the Illuminati John? Hey John did you know that Micheal Jackson died from plastic poisoning? All that surgery. 
      Time to call a time out on OBL. Punch has milked this long enuf.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:12pm | 05/05/11

      Are you saying the Punch should be ‘OBBLed? Not a bad idea; columns on terrorism are becoming OBLigatory on this site.  Come on, let’s just SEAL the deal right now.

      Sorry, couldn’t resist.

    • Wavy says:

      10:55am | 05/05/11

      The Redman said at 10:36am | 05/05/11

      ‘“The USA send fighters to shot down Admiral Isoroya Yamamoto”
      Sigh. What rubbish. Yes, the aircraft in which Yamamoto was shot down. The US had absolutely no idea he was aboard.”

      WRONG! The USN knew Yamamoto was onboard, thanks to Signal Intercepts. THAT is a Fact! US Pacific Command. ADM Nimitz, was given the green light to take Yamamoto out from President Roosevelt, which they did, then ADM Halsey nearly tipped the Japanese that their codes were broken by announcing that it was a planned operation!

      Just setting the record straight!

    • stevem says:

      11:05am | 05/05/11

      The changing story is understandable. The first account was probably based on the TV images we saw Obama watching. The revised story would then be based on the reports from the soldiers involved.

    • Glen says:

      11:11am | 05/05/11

      Total BS some of the above comments - only the soldiers and commander on the ground have the right to call the situation.

      Though unarmed, for all we know OBL could have had a host of heavily armed guys in front defending him, not to mention his lunging missus, ready to take down the soldiers.

      I would imagine its very hard to try and neutralise everyone defending him at the scene, then hope he too isn’t armed and wrestle him to the ground.

      From what I can see US soldiers made the right call. Probably asked them all to surrender and got an AK47 reply.

      Put yourself in the soldiers situation - you are fired upon - what would you do? I will bet it certainly wouldn’t be, “my socialist beliefs demand I ask a second time Mr Laden - please surrender, pretty please?”

    • BJA says:

      11:12am | 05/05/11

      So it’s ok for them to parade Saddam around but not Osama.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:45am | 05/05/11

      Saddam surrendered.  If Osama didn’t, any prudent commander would have said “Take him out.”

    • St. Michael says:

      11:38am | 05/05/11

      This whole “capture, not kill” movement originates from Geoffrey Robertson, who came out opining it would be better to put Osama on trial than kill him.

      It’s an unfortunate point of view.  I respect Robertson for most of his views.  For a start (albeit mostly irrelevant), he’s one of ours by origin.  He’s also a very respected lawyer *and* UK judge, not to mention his work with the European Court of Justice.  His book “The Justice Game” is essential reading relating to human rights and other legal topics.  He makes consistent arguments that even when it results in acquittal, it makes a lot better sense to let former dictators stand trial so they have the full right to give their side of the story in the theoretically neutral forum of a courtroom.  The reasoning follows that only then do you show that the Western legal system *is* anything other than a series of show trials.

      With Saddam Hussein, it was an argument that was borne out; put on trial, Hussein was by turns a nutcase or a pathetic failure, one who railed continually against the power of the court to try him and against everything the court did no matter how far it bent over backwards to accommodate him.

      Robertson’s problem is twofold:

      (1) It’s not the same kettle of fish with Osama.  Osama’s not a former dictator or head of state, he’s the spiritual, if not logistical, leader of a terrorist organisation.  There’s no guarantee Osama would wind up the same way or give the shambling, crazed performance that Hussein did.  You might very well find Osama Bin Laden to be as media-savvy as Julian Assange and fully capable of utilising the platform for spreading his views.  At that point a trial becomes a show trial.

      (2) Robertson isn’t consistent on this point of view.  In “The Justice Game” he explicitly says that terrorists who have hijacked airliners and who are the subject of Special Ops raids to free their hostages are acceptably the subject of summary execution during those raids, in that “they deserved it.”  Exactly how he draws the line between this situation and the Osama tap isn’t clear.

      Me, I think Al-Qaeda basically has changed the rules beyond what the law—and especially the Geneva Convention—contemplated.  It’s a pan-national terrorist organisation that is choosing to ignore the Conventions, target innocent civilians, and use weak points in Western foreign policy to its advantage.  If nothing else, the Conventions, dating back to before WW2, have to be looked at again, much as the UNHCR does, because like most outdated laws they’re not performing well for current society.

      I don’t pretend to have the right approach to dealing with this at law, but when you’re at war, as we supposedly are, some of the more significant criminal offences, such as murder, are de facto suspended.  Nobody would convict a soldier shooting members of a belligerent foreign army on his home soil, it’s just a matter of the extent to which you can be proactive about it.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:39pm | 05/05/11

      Robertsons main problem is that there is no, and should be none, room for ‘Due Process’ in combat. Its pretty much similar circumstances as these 3 Commandos from 2 Commando Regt who are up on manslaughter charges re the raid in Afghanistan that resulted in civilian casualties. If you are under fire then it behooves us that we support the rights of our soldiers taking whatever action they can to protect themselves and their mates first and foremost before they take into account what or who ‘might’ be around or hidden in buildings etc or worry about legal crap. Once they are in a position of safety they can access better/further.

      Maybe Geoff can stick up his hand to be the number 1 man through the door in future raids to survey the scene and let the boys know what is and isn’t allowed before fingers hit triggers?

    • St. Michael says:

      03:30pm | 05/05/11

      Actually, Dave, Robertson’s got a lot of sympathy for soldiers caught in the moment of a firefight.  His chapter on Friendly (sic) Fire regarding US troops bombing British tank columns makes that clear; Robertson’s own father flew for the Allies in WW2.

      On “due process” in battle Robertson’s argument is that the fog of war can (and has been in the past) used to cover up cases of outright wrongdoing or outright negligence *in context*.  The fog of war or battle conditions do not remove a standard of care, though they do lower them; nobody would expect the same level of precision or care from a battlefield surgeon being shelled from the same surgeon in a major metropolitan hospital, but a surgeon wilfully not bothering to sew a wounded man up would be cause for action in either setting.  Battlefield conditions do lower the applicable standard of care, but they don’t remove it entirely.

      As it is, I don’t think Robertson was saying anybody was negligent or alleging the soldiers didn’t do their job.  As I understood his criticism it was that the US seemed determined to kill rather than capture, which necessarily is an order given from the White House or certainly at a much higher level than the SEAL team’s command.

      I disagree with him on that, but I didn’t read his comments as criticising the SEAL team for not following the applicable standard.  All due respect, but you are straw manning when you suggest that’s what he was saying.  He wasn’t saying the SEALs didn’t follow due process, he’s criticising that they were ordered to kill rather than capture.

    • Shane from Melbourne says:

      11:47am | 05/05/11

      It has been reported that the SEAL team captured a treasure trove of documents and computer disks. Lesson: Destroy the records before anything else. A few thermite grenades strapped to computers and filing cabinets does the trick. Shredding doesn’t work. The U.S tried that when the Iranian students took over the embassy.

    • rajend naidu says:

      11:48am | 05/05/11

      Al : Don’t let your imagination go wild. It is common knowledge that shit happens big time when people are at war - declared and undeclared. That’s the reason for the Geneva Convention and that’s why the ICC and ICJ have been set up. The question in the context of the Osama killing is straight forward: was he armed or unarmed? Official US sources stated he was unarmed. Now you might want to go and clear the cobweb in your head so that you can think straight. An unarmed man was killed. He might have been the biggest bastard on earth but under our value system and system of justice we are not meant to shoot and kill and unarmed man. He is suppose to be put on trial. Why didn’t that happen in Osama’s case?That’s what is being questioned here. But like said earlier no questions are valid in this case. That’s the “logic” of the mob who unquestioningly accept the American stance . Al I see you in that mob.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:55am | 05/05/11

      “An unarmed man was killed. He might have been the biggest bastard on earth but under our value system and system of justice we are not meant to shoot and kill and unarmed man.”

      If I remember right, the 2,000 people at the WTC were also unarmed.

    • Kassandra says:

      12:59pm | 05/05/11

      Of course you are absolutely right. The SEAL team should have wrestled him to the ground, handcuffed him and read him his rights (and stuffed a written copy into his pocket), then frogmarched him out the door into the waiting police van, taken him to the appointed lockup, put him on trial, gone through the 5,000 appeals up to the Galactic High Court defended pro bono by Geoffrey Robertson, then shot the f***er in the face.

    • Al says:

      01:32pm | 05/05/11

      Rajend:

      Here is another question that is perfectly valid for any logical thinking person.

      Did it ever cross your mind that in the heat of the battle, with bullets flying everywhere, the American commandos perhaps did not have enough time to ask Osama politely “do you have any concealed weapon on your body”? I know it sounds unbelievable to you, but can you consider the remote possibility that an upstanding citizen like Osama bin Laden might have had a remote detonator on his person to blow up the entire compound? Of course not. It is only the US who are capable of such atrocious acts, slaying poor old Osama who was only trying to surrender peacefully so that he can stand trial for the alleged acts attributed to him (which are all false, of course).

    • Steve says:

      01:42pm | 05/05/11

      I think the loss of the helicopter played a significant role in what transpoired. The SEALS exit strategy was compromised and probably had the mindset that if we can’t get him alive we will kill him. I congratulate whoever was rational enough to make that good decision rather than risk being challenged by Pakistani forces who may have been sympathetic to OBL. The seals gave their mission priority over their own welfare despite having concern about how they would get out. Mission complete.

    • george says:

      11:52am | 05/05/11

      If he is not dead - wouldn’t he have released a video by now.
      What is the purpose of showing us the photos ? I think we should all demand respect of the dead no matter who they are.

    • L. says:

      12:44pm | 05/05/11

      “I think we should all demand respect of the dead no matter who they are. “

      Ummm, why?

    • Kika says:

      02:01pm | 05/05/11

      Because he was already long dead before America claimed he was

    • josh says:

      11:54am | 05/05/11

      I think given the situation, anything less then OBL’s immediate surrender could and should be construed as a hostile act.

      As to his wife, who in their right mind flings them self at an armed SEAL in the middle of a fire fight and expects sunshine and rainbows?

      If he actually wanted to live, the only correct response would have been to lay flat on the ground, hands on head and pray to his personal sky fairy.

    • OFCOL says:

      02:05pm | 05/05/11

      and end up dead anyway. There was no capture in the plan, talk about lip service. The US backflip on “what really happened” has made sure they have lost credibility (if they had any to start with). Does it really matter now that they got him? No- men and women will continue to die in combat in Afghanistan as there is no way they can now just “leave”.

      As for his wife, perhaps her motive was love, or respect or honour.

    • jag says:

      12:30pm | 05/05/11

      He’s dead. This is what happens when you decide to be the head of an organisation who’s major aim is to kill anyone that doesn’t agree with them.

    • Kika says:

      01:56pm | 05/05/11

      Really? There’s IS an ‘organisation’ called Al Qaeda? This is the thing that gets me. If there was an ‘organisation’ run centrally and bureaucratically how come it took them so long to pin him down? If it was a centrally organised thing as most people believe it is, you would assume it would be easy that if you cut the head of the snake, the snake is dead.

      They don’t work that way. They work in a way like bacteria - their ideas and thoughts infiltrate other ‘cells’ and they grow and divide and splinter and move. There’s no one ‘cell’ to take care of but an infiinte number which could break away at any moment.

      As a wise man said “An orchestra can still play without a conductor”

    • jag says:

      02:18pm | 05/05/11

      He’s still dead.

    • K Brown says:

      01:01pm | 05/05/11

      This article displays a sad lack of appreciation for the gritty reality of tactical military engagements.  Think about it.  The SEALs encountered armed resistance on the ground floor and were engaged in a firefight.  Other elements proceeded up the stairs to locate bin Laden or whoever was in the upper rooms.  Whoever they encounter,  they know they are fanatical Muslim terrorists who embrace martyrdom and have a penchant for suicide bombing. Whoever is up there is obviously aware by now that they are being attacked and its probably a good idea to assume they are armed and may have explosives. It is also reasonable to be prepared for the same resistance encountered on the ground level. The team smashes or blows the bedroom door in and enter the blacked out room wearing night vision goggles that degrade visual acuity and spatial awareness. Bin Laden’s wife rushes you and is shot in the leg. Bin Laden doesn’t surrender but is also moving. Is he armed, going for a weapon or does he have a prepared explosive device and is going to take everyone out in a blaze of jihadist glory?  What would you do now Paul?

      As the military commander of al-Qaeda, bin Laden was an “unlawful combatant” under Article 3 of the Geneva Convention.  Al-Queda had declared war on the US and was engaged in ongoing operations against them. He was a legimate military target and was killed in a lawful tactical military operation. Under the Geneva Convention there was no obligation to apprehend or arrest him. His death would only have been unlawfull if he had been killed after he had surrendered.  We are told he didn’t surrender which even the author agrees is likely.

      The jingoism that has surrounded this operation should not blind commentators to objective analysis and legal argument.  Sadly much of the rhetoric ranges between facile subjective opinion and blatant anti-American bias.

    • D says:

      02:17pm | 05/05/11

      I agree, just because someone is known to be unarmed now doesn’t mean they weren’t a perceived risk.  Could you really expect the SEALs to play ‘wait and see’ in the situation.

    • Bikinis On Top says:

      01:04pm | 05/05/11

      Your comment:
      Al Queda now lives at Abbottabad with Uncle Tony, Al Queda’s parents Val and Mal, and his brother Shallow Hal.
      AL Queda welcomes the Anzac Cove Anzac Day Test between Australia and New Zealand.
      Naturally it will be played at Osama Bien Laden Oval .
      Children,Pensioners and Americans free

    • Anna C says:

      01:41pm | 05/05/11

      Osama forfieted his right to be treated as a human being when he chose to kill thousands of people. He wasn’t a man but a monster who was put down. If you ask me shooting was too good for him.

      All I can say to likes of Geoffrey Robertson who are so concerned that Osama didn’t get his trial is;  shut up. When it’s your turn to hunt down a terrorist you can do it any way you like but until then go back to doing what you do best ...paper shuffling.

    • St. Michael says:

      02:01pm | 05/05/11

      Robertson’s wrong on this issue, but he’s also done more to secure your individual freedoms than a pack of SEALS do in five years of black ops.  If you did a bit of reading about him you’d understand that.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:47pm | 05/05/11

      One wonders if it was the Geoffrey Robertsons of the world that gave us the freedoms we now enjoy or the men, and now women, who wear the uniform? I guess it would be a bit hard for the Geoffrey Robertsons to enjoy the freedoms of our modern democratic systems and make positive change IF the soldiers didn’t fight and in a lot of cases die defending our nations from totalitarianism and germicidal dictatorships

      If I may, before someone else does:

      It is the Soldier, not the minister
      Who has given us freedom of religion.

      It is the Soldier, not the reporter
      Who has given us freedom of the press.

      It is the Soldier, not the poet
      Who has given us freedom of speech.

      It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
      Who has given us freedom to protest.

      It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
      Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

      It is the Soldier, not the politician
      Who has given us the right to vote.

      It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
      Who serves beneath the flag,
      And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
      Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

      Lest We Forget

    • Anna C says:

      03:14pm | 05/05/11

      St. Michael, I have every reason to question Geoffrey Robertson’s judgement.  The man chose to marry that woeful Cathy Lette over that culinary godess Nigella Lawson for God’s sake. What does that say about him?

    • Anna C says:

      03:15pm | 05/05/11

      St Michael, I have every reason to question Geoffrey Robertson’s judgement.  I mean the guy chose to marry that woeful Cathy Lette over culinary goddess Nigella Lawson for God’s sake.  What does that tell you?

    • RGG says:

      03:20pm | 05/05/11

      That’s a patriotic sentiment and everything, but it seems beyond obvious that the various freedoms you cite there were all founded either by statutory instruments (such as constitutions, bill of rights etc) or in the court rooms that interpret those instruments. Soldiers certainly defend the institution against attack, but to say that it was soldiers who “gave” us those freedoms is a tad ingenious.

      They were part of it, certainly, but not the be-all and end-all you seem to be claiming.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:21pm | 05/05/11

      The problem being that, depending on the country you pick, it is the men and sometimes the women wearing the uniforms that oppress their own people.  Armies have been used against their own peoples before; they’re being used so in Libya right now.

      I’ve no problem with the truth of the armed forces defending us from foreign threats to our freedoms.  But suggesting they’re solely responsible for individual freedoms within our own society is a logical fallacy; China protects its borders from foreign threats to its citizens by the upkeep of an armed comprised of, shock horror, soldiers.  China is not a free society despite the many more soldiers presently and loyally serving beneath its flag, or because it participated in World War 2.

      That’s because soldiers don’t guard against domestic threats to our individual freedoms, mostly because the government is not infrequently the source of the domestic threat.  And it might be pointed out that these freedoms are more often under direct threat from domestic sources than foreign.

      It was a panel of independent judges that denied blasphemy charges against Salman Rushdie brought by Islam at large over “The Satanic Verses”.

      It was a panel of independent judges that said a judge cannot force a jury to find someone guilty (the rule in Stonehouse).

      It was an independent judge who threw out spying charges against journalists (the ABC case).

      It was a case before an independent judge, and largely the courage of an independent prosecutor, who exposed the UK as authorising the selling of arms to Saddam whilst condemning the dictator (Matrix Churchill)

      It was an independent panel of judges who threw out the Ali Daghir “nuclear triggers” case as a miscarriage of justice.

      It was an independent judge and jury that threw out Mary Whitehouse’s prosecution of a play in Sir Laurence Olivier’s theatre.

      Sneering at Robertson because he doesn’t put on a serviceman’s uniform isn’t the solution.  He’s wrong on this issue, but that doesn’t make every civil liberty he’s protected wrong, either, or meaningless.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:35pm | 05/05/11

      @ Anna C: as the curent brouhaha over Pippa Middleton’s posterior demonstrates, there is both room and freedom for individual men to admire arses, boobs, or legs as they see fit.

      And everyone knows Nigella Lawson wields the riding crop in the bedroom, anyway.  raspberry

    • iansand says:

      04:27pm | 05/05/11

      I think Robertson’s argument is that there is more opportunity for the baddies to make bin Laden a martyr in the current circumstances.  He believes that he would be less of a martyr if he was required to face a prosecution that would present evidence about him.  Saddam and Milosovic are examples.  They both came out of their trials looking worse than they seemed at the beginning of the trial.  Apart from Saddam being dead, quite quickly.

      I can see his point as a question of theoretical interest..  However, in the circumstances of the raid it is a completely impractical position to take.

    • bikinis on top says:

      04:01pm | 05/05/11

      only welfare recipients,government housing tenants,  and trolls live in the free world.

    • Caroline Tapp says:

      12:10pm | 06/05/11

      Who gives a rats. More violence / Less violence / Same ol same ol violence, post assignation!

      G. Robertson is always right. But so what! And like really, who cares what Osama “wanted” - like what he wanted was in the mix when u got the Tea Party up your arse.

      Lets talk PALESTINE! Lets talk OIL! (Now that S11 has had it’s (rightful?) revenge.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Daniel Piotrowski

RT @popculturechris: Meanwhile, Gotye holds no.1 for a sixth massive week in the US - "that" song has now sold over 4 million copies there.

ToryShepherd

@loupascale if the survey made you sad, probably skip the comments...

Paul Colgan

@paulwiggins @richardkendall that fountain pens yarn is a great social trend story

Paul Colgan

I like how a tip erodes so only you can use it MT “@paulwiggins: BBC News - Why are fountain pen sales rising? http://t.co/0hk2MRtf

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Protecting the Barrier Reef is the Fin end of the wedge

Protecting the Barrier Reef is the Fin end of the wedge

When you take on a job like being Environment Minister there’s some hits you can see coming. …

ICB: Is white bread the worst thing since sliced bread?

ICB: Is white bread the worst thing since sliced bread?

Welcome to this week’s I Call Bullshit column. It’s a regular column that looks at skulduggery…

Sometimes, you’ve just got to stick it to the bloody ref

Sometimes, you’ve just got to stick it to the bloody ref

We are taught early in life that we should not question authority. We must listen to our parents, our…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

243 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter