Biggest moments of 2011 #18 Alan Joyce chucks a wobbly

meh says:

07:55am | 06/12/11

“strikes regularly disrupt beer supplies”

Ooo thanks for the reminder to stock up, it is chirstmas time.

Things you can rely on at christmas: at least one kid in the family will crack a wobbly about the presents; someone will declare they ate too much before scoffing afternoon tea; someone with a religious bender will want to lecture you about people not remembering “the reason for the season”;  there will be a beer supply strike. Still, I do love Christmas time.

mick says:

08:01am | 06/12/11

The normal ‘its all Labor’s fault sort of rant from you (again) Erik.  Never let the facts get in the way of political propaganda I venture to say.

Putting what happened at Qantas into perspective you can’t blame anyone other than Alan Joyce for believing that you can just sack a whole Australian workforce and then conduct business as usual using cheap overseas labour.  People who subscribe to this madness need to ask who will have a job left in this country in the future.

If Joyce had not at the same time taken a whopping 70% pay increase he may have had some credibility.  If Joyce had entered into some meaningful dialogue he may have had some credibility.  If Qantas were making huge losses and were on the brink of bankruptcy (it wasn’t) he would have had some credibility.  Joyce has no credibility and the flying public are proving the point and remember what this jerk tried to do to his fellow Australians by not flying Qantas.

Making a dumb statement about Labor is,well, just plain dumb.  Governments do not normally get involved in business disputes. Heaping blame in that area may satisfy your political master but it is as misleading a comment as one would ever see.  Well, what else is your master good at?

Mayday says:

08:06am | 06/12/11

” In March this year, union leader Tony Sheldon told The Australian that the dispute could be as bad as the Patrick Stevedores-maritime unions dispute of the 90s. It wasn’t.”

Sheldon was being touted as the next ALP National President and that didn’t happen either.

Alan Joyce caught the Unions out by grounding the planes and in doing so he forced the result he wanted i.e. keeping the planes flying.

Thank goodness for people like Alan Joyce.

SimonFromLakemba says:

08:50am | 06/12/11

More strikes happened under Howard then Labor, sigh.

Tim says:

09:49am | 06/12/11

Erick,
you post some good stuff on this site but comments like this harm what you have to say elsewhere.

A partisan comment with zero facts to back you up. It’s on Acotrel’s level.

Erick says:

10:25am | 06/12/11

@Tim - A fair criticism. However, you didn’t do any better with your comment in the Open Thread:

‘Logic? Andrew Bolt?
*Brain Explosion.*’

A partisan comment with zero facts to back you up. It’s on Acotrel’s level.

Tim says:

12:11pm | 06/12/11

Erick,
I agree with you although I didn’t know that thinking Andrew Bolt sometimes plays loose with logic was being partisan.
And anyway, I’d already made a follow up to that comment.

Geearkay says:

04:06pm | 06/12/11

When I was young beer strikes happened almost every Xmas, and the governments were all Liberal

bananabender says:

07:24pm | 06/12/11

@Mick,
you live in a fact free zone.

Fact 1. QANTAS has arguably the highest wages and best conditions in the entire aviation industry.

Fact 2. QANTAS international and domestic pilots earn twice as much as similarly qualified pilots working for other airlines.

Fact 3. The QANTAS international operation loses over $300 million dollars a year.
Fact 4. Alan Joyce didn’t get a 70% pay increase. The pay “increase” was actually just a return to his normal salary after he took a massive cut in 2010.

Tim says:

09:46am | 06/12/11

Really?
I’ve recently been booking flights for next year and have deliberately stayed away from Qantas because of this event.
I think Joyce did serious damage to the Qantas brand.

EM says:

01:25pm | 06/12/11

I’m with Tim, I just booked flights to London and didn’t even look at the Qantas website - I’ve always flown with Qantas in the past.

No mate, this will have a lasting impact on Qantas; Australian’s don’t like bastards who screw over the little guy.

Matthew says:

02:11pm | 06/12/11

I’m flying Virgin Australia to the US/Canada and avoiding Qantas for all flights.

I avoid flying Qantas inside Australia as well (this is since before the strike though, mostly because their service and planes are rubbish).

Jason says:

12:25pm | 06/12/11

Great reply! I agree! Its the Australian public voting no for the workers pay rises as they don’t want to pay extra and fly with Qantas!

Macca says:

06:54am | 06/12/11

I think we need a total change in the entitlement mentality of our workforce; you don’t get job security (or an affluent society) by reducing the competitiveness of Australian companies.

In the same vein, creating business leaders capable of motivating and engaging people would also be a step in the right direction.

Neither of these goals is achieved by a prescribed, over-regulated labour market.

Mahhrat says:

07:12am | 06/12/11

@Macca, I totally agree, but I think we’re looking at it in totally the wrong way.

The NBN is a great example.  The project is expensive to the point of absurdity, probably won’t be well rolled out by its government-based lackeys, will be delayed and all that stuff.

It’s still the most important thing we could be doing right now to future proof our country, and IMHO is a fantastic step in the right direction, simply because we should be building these things.

With things like that, we can create and develop new industries here.  The human race is still innovating - I now have a phone which is actually pretty crap at making calls but I can put my calendar, my exercise, my banking details and my music collection on it, for $50 a month.

If you’d told me I could do that today when I was a boy 30 years ago I’d have laughed at you.  It’s amazing stuff, and that’s just one example.

My question is, why aren’t we doing more to find out the “next big thing”, and have the made here?  We have some of the best employee safety regimes on the planet (in spite of what Alcotrel says), so we should develop the expertise to capitalise on that.

We should be making elite, high-end products for niche markets, not still digging shit out of the ground.

SimonFromLakemba says:

09:01am | 06/12/11

@Mahhrat

No one wants to take the risk anymore, look at the sh*t Labor has copped for trying to be progressive ( BER, NBN, Mining Tax ), all had examples of cost blowouts, which when the Government tries their hand at something usually happens.

If Abbott gets in, you can pretty much guarantee that nothing innovative will happen as he and his party is stuck back in the 60s, Turnbull is the only one with an innovative, progressive bone in his body.

I like what O’Farrell has done here in NSW, got things moving from day 1, no matter at what cost, has Greiner at the head of the transport body submitting ideas, this needs to be extended to Federal.

In regards to Qantas, the brand has been going backwards for years, ever since Dixon was at the helm. You pay $30-$40 more then Virgin for the same fare as its ‘full service’ and you get a crappy muffin to eat?

I actually agree with him about moving a cost price airline to Asia, makes sense, but he cant do it while treating the Australian public like dim-wits.

Miles says:

10:49am | 06/12/11

Probably one of the most sensible comments I have seen you write acotrel.  Australian business needs to move away from manufacturing as there is no way we can compete with the cheaper costs of asian countries.  We have plenty of opportunities to build new industries - even become world leaders in some - if only there were enough backers (both private and government) to get projects off the ground.  Sadly though, some of our best ideas / potential industries have gone OS in search of that funding dollar as they have had no luck here.

BJ says:

06:12pm | 06/12/11

How much do QANTAS workers get paid?

acotrel says:

07:28am | 06/12/11

@thatmosis
‘We all know where the real problem lies and when they are gone we may get some real IR laws that protect businesses from the excesses of the Unions
Did I hear you mention employee share ownership ?  Thought not ! -  It is always about coercion, never participation.

marley says:

07:44am | 06/12/11

@acotrel - well, have the unions ever asked for share ownership or invested their members’ money in Qantas shares?  Would they be prepared to take the financial knocks that shareholders do when there are rolling strikes or unprofitable routes that can’t be closed down because of union agitation?  Participation is a two way street (so, for that matter, is coercion).

Michael says:

07:49am | 06/12/11

acotrel, employees can buy shares in the company they work for surely?
or do you mean going to work, getting paid a wage and super AND being given shares in the company for what? just showing up each day.

What a pleasant fantasy, where bosses and business people give away their companies.

Sarah says:

08:37am | 06/12/11

@thatmosis

hear hear!
+1 (Gee we need a ‘like’ button)

TimB says:

09:14am | 06/12/11

“do you mean going to work, getting paid a wage and super AND being given shares in the company for what? just showing up each day.”

Actually Michael, I get all of that that I’m building up a nice little collection of shares.
But I acknowledge that I’m pretty lucky in that respect. It’s something that my company chooses to do to help retain employees.

Same as all the perks that Qantas grants to it employees. If Qantas was so awful, the employees would have quit to go work for Virgin or someone else ages ago. The fact is they know they’re on a good wicket- they just want more.

Props to Joyce for putting his foot down.

Michael says:

09:30am | 06/12/11

Very lucky to be you TimB, well done, i bet you had to work hard somewhere along the line to get to where you are now though, well that’s the belief i prefer in relation to your fortunate position TimB

Ben C says:

09:44am | 06/12/11

As far as I remember, Qantas employees get:

- The best wage in the industry.
- Superannuation guarantee.
- Access to their own credit union - better interest rates on deposits and borrowings (http://www.qantascu.com.au)

An employee share scheme would be good, however I doubt they would be smart enough to be able to correlate the share price movements with their performance.

Tim says:

09:53am | 06/12/11

Yeah,
those evil unions having their members wear ties and make an announcement on the plane.
Really held everyone up.

TimB says:

10:29am | 06/12/11

Tim, you know full well there was far more to it than that.

Roughneck says:

10:51am | 06/12/11

@thatmosis
“ride roughshod “
Please explain how the unions rode roughshod over QANTAS’

I didn’t think so

JeffB says:

10:55am | 06/12/11

TimB
Do tell us about the “more to it:”

Tim says:

10:57am | 06/12/11

TimB,
of course there was.
Far more than thatmosis lets on in his original comment too.
The Qantas issue is very interesting and goes way beyond Unions bad/ CEO good.
Qantas as a company needs real structural change and both sides are going to have to give some ground if the company wants to survive.

jf says:

12:01pm | 06/12/11

acotrel says:08:28am | 06/12/11

“Did I hear you mention employee share ownership ?  Thought not ! -  It is always about coercion, never participation.”

The last thing I think most employees would want is to be forced to divert a portion of their remuneration into the company they work for. I think that they would much prefer how to spend the spoils of their labour.

TimB says:

12:32pm | 06/12/11

What ground do you think Qantas should give Tim?

All the demands I’ve seen so far are either increased pay/perks on top of their already generous packages, or related to issues of company management that is completely outside the scope of their entitlements as employees. Given that, it’s hard to see how disruptive industrial action is justified.
And I’m talking the actual strikes and so forth, not harmless stuff like wearing different ties-Just because one lot of employees are using passive tactics, it doesn’t excuse the behaviour of the rest mob.

Mayday says:

12:35pm | 06/12/11

@Roughneck.

Slow Bake was the term the unions used in their attempt to bite the hand that feeds them.

Tim says:

01:10pm | 06/12/11

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/so-what-is-the-qantas-dispute-really-all-about/story-e6frfq80-1226201524560

TimB,
yes some of the unions demands won’t be met and some are silly but that’s what negotiation is all about.

I think the Pilots have a point that Qantas should not be able to use outside pilots on different conditions on their flights. This simply allows Qantas to outsource hiring cheaper overseas pilots who may or may not have the required training.

The engineers don’t want their jobs outsourced. It’s a bit dodgy of Qantas to try and bypass our employment and safety laws.

The ground staff don’t want their jobs outsourced to contractors.

I can’t see anything special about these claims. Pretty standard stuff that should have been able to be solved with some proper negotiation. Unfortunately both sides wanted to play hardball.

Roughneck says:

02:11pm | 06/12/11

@ mayday
I see, thatmosis can’t answer the question of what he means by riding roughshod.
Can’t give examples and then you butt in and make reference to a cooking term that in your mind equates to riding roughshod.

Still nothing but slogans.

Mayday says:

03:00pm | 06/12/11

@Roughneck.  Idioms Unpacked states…...................................

“A person who rides roughshod over others tends to be abusive, aggressive, barbaric, boorish, bossy, bullying, coercing, combative, cruel, dictatorial, disdainful, disrespectful, dominating, harassing…...”

This was exactly the behaviour of the TWU and they coined the cooking term to “slow bake” Qantas.  The link follows -

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/why-alan-joyce-should-be-named-australian-of-the-year-20111120-1np97.html

Anyone can put their two bobs worth in at the Punch so lay off.

Roughneck says:

04:10pm | 06/12/11

@ mayday
“abusive, aggressive, barbaric, boorish, bossy, bullying, coercing, combative, cruel, dictatorial, disdainful, disrespectful, dominating, harassing…...””
So this is what the unions did? All these things or just some of them. Any concrete examples of how they manifested these descriptors?

You have nothing but your jaded opinion.
oh, and a bunch of slogans you “borrowed” from a website that suits your preconceived notions
Sad, very sad ill informed union basher. Typical liberal syco.

Mayday says:

05:25pm | 06/12/11

@Roughneck

And you must be a Union tart, a dinosaur who is no longer relevant.

Lisa H. says:

06:09pm | 06/12/11

Apparently the key reason Joyce did not warn the public of the impending lock-out was for fear of sabotage of planes from union members.

At the time, I felt ambivalent about Joyce’s claim, for how could responsible employees (headed by Labor unionist pollies, at that!) wilfully break the law? *joke*

However, it was reported that there was some sabotage, of entertainment units, at the time of the lock-out announcement. In my view, this proves Joyce right.

Don’t really like the image of angry unionists cutting wires on the insides of airplanes.

Lisa H. says:

06:18pm | 06/12/11

the term ‘slow bake’ WAS used by the unions, though.
I interpreted that charming expression as meaning they were going to try to break Qantas as a company.
What a way to build wealth in this country!
Perhaps the unionists should start their own airline?

I also feel that the emphasis on ‘australian trained’ staff for safety standards smacks more than a little of parochialism, perhaps racism.

SimonFromLakemba says:

09:07am | 06/12/11

JB worked for Qantas and they stiffed him, so he went to Virgin. Joyce ran a low cost airline previously, I think they knew what they wanted and they got it.

You only have to fly Qantas to see how far behind the other carriers they are.

Chris L says:

09:29am | 06/12/11

Looking at the facts Lexi? Shame on you!

Daniel says:

10:26am | 06/12/11

Lexi,
If you were a shareholder would have preffered Joyce didn’t confromt the unions?
What then, more strikes, or give in to thier demands?
How would the share price look then?

Ozshanel says:

12:43pm | 06/12/11

Lexi, I don’t understand your praise for John Borghetti.  Virgin is currently making substantial losses (so no dividends) despite increases in revenue which just goes to show how much in the way of costs are being added in at the moment.  It is easy to have a contented workforce if you just give them everything they ask for regardless of the cost to the company (such as 28% pay increases).  If I was a Virgin shareholder, I would actually be pretty unhappy with the way the company is being run at the moment.  Everything was going pretty well untill Borghetti took over and started trying to make it into Qantas Mark II.  I hope that the union leadership have received decent bonuses from Virgin for helping them to become more profitable, after all, it was only their actions at Qantas that have stopped Virgin from going down the tube.

Angry_of_Mayfair says:

12:49pm | 06/12/11

Well put, Damian! Joyce showed what his true colours by accepting a bonus/pay rise that was more that what the unions were asking for in entirety. It always amuses me when pretentious gits slag the unions - remember, darlings, without the unions we’d have been completely outsourced decades ago. If that had been allowed to happen, you wouldn’t have your precious BMWs and McMansions!

Angry_of_Mayfair says:

01:08pm | 06/12/11

Sorry. Please excuse the redundant “what”.

Macca says:

10:06am | 06/12/11

By adopting the Tony Sheldon approach to job security there will be no jobs. The entire premise of the Trade Unions response to the Qantas growth plans is counter productive.

I would also argue that trying to grow a $500m profit is not greedy when that full year EBITDA would not pay for a single new plane.

Michael says:

10:41am | 06/12/11

I would be asking what % of total cost of operations did that profit represent, before i made any further assumptions on the virtues of profit or pritable companies and their directors.

SimonFromLakemba says:

09:10am | 06/12/11

It still comes down to providing a service, that’s where Qantas fails.

Majority of Australians wouldn’t mind paying Qantas higher fares if it was worth it, but the food is average and so is the Entertainment.

marley says:

01:03pm | 06/12/11

@Simon - I think you’re wrong there.  I think the majority of Australians book their flights totally on the price of the fare.  I certainly wouldn’t pay $150 extra to fly Qantas because they serve a $6 meal instead of a $4 one.

SimonFromLakemba says:

02:40pm | 06/12/11

Personally, I wouldn’t mind paying an extra $150 if the in flight entrainment was great and my meal was good.

Most people with an ounce of perspective knows Qantas pays higher wagers etc then most of the asian and middle east airlines so it is hard to compete on fair, so compete on service, entertainment, food etc.

marley says:

03:06pm | 06/12/11

@Simon - my point was that I just do not believe the majority of Australians will pay higher fares if they get better service.  They will go for the cheapest fare, and put up with whatever cardboard sandwich they’re given.  You only have to look at the cut rate airlines operating out of Australia to know that service isn’t the average Aussie’s top priority.  The whole concept of budget airlines is based on economy fares and economy service, and it hasn’t been proved wrong yet. 

You might be the exception who would pay more for better meals and a later release movie, but I suspect you’re in a minority.  That’s the problem:  Qantas might like to turn itself into a premium service airline, but I don’t think it can get the volume of traffic to warrant the expense.

Lisa H. says:

06:14pm | 06/12/11

Actually, I have to agree with your statement marley.
We run a small business, and it is honestly surprising just how indiscriminating many if not most customers are in terms of quality.
They just want the cheapest, that’s it.
It takes a very determined effort to turn customers onto some other aspects of what it is they are buying.

Michael says:

09:08am | 06/12/11

Explain what? expansion on hold due to global economic uncertainty, local industrial disputes settled and business as usual until there is more stability for expansion into asia.

Thanks for the payrise, regards AJ

Achmed says:

09:49pm | 06/12/11

Unions still do have a place. People focus on the couple of high profile Unions or on the unions involved ina dispute such as this one. You never here of the Shoppies Union and other moderrate unions that cover people working in jobs like checkout ‘chicks’ or child care etc Have a look in the Industrial Courts and see how many employers have ripped off vulnerable employees by under paying them etc and its Unions that take up the ‘fight’ on the behalf of these people. Certainly not your Chamber of Commerce or the Abbotts and Howards of the world

Asrael says:

12:07pm | 06/12/11

Go Martt!! Mr Howard belived that ‘everyone” cuold negotiate their own conditions. Said we should all “take your accountant”. This is the divide. Upper middle class versus the rest of us. No accountants, no higher education, no ability to represent ourselves in a way that wins us what we need, without a collective voice. Anyway, if employers can have a Chamber of Commerce, Doctors can have the AMA, then the workers can have their unions!

phil says:

04:17pm | 06/12/11

Penney pinchers deserve all they get. I see it all the time in the building trade. You get what you pay for,full stop. Joyce should be deported and have his assets seized and placed into a fund for Australian apprentices.

Breeanna C says:

07:57pm | 06/12/11

Alan Joyce is not a foreigner!  He has been living and working in Australia since 1996.  He has taken up an Australian citizenship. 
It’s fine to have a go at his business practices if you don’t like them, but the blatant racism (yes, it’s racism) has got to stop.  He has made some good contributions to Australian business sine he moved here.  I daresay a bigger contribution to Australian society than many others who are born here.