Gay marriage is supported by a majority of Australians. At least that’s what the few published opinion polls on the issue would suggest.

Loren Cowley (left) and Michelle Ricketts seal their vows in a wedding protyest outside the ALP convention in Sydney last year. Photo: AFP

The most recent poll, in October of this year, was commissioned by a pro-gay marriage lobby group called Australian Marriage Equality. But it was conducted by the independent polling firm Galaxy, which since 2004 has one of the best records at picking federal and state election results. With a solid sample of 1050 respondents, the Galaxy survey found that 62 per cent of Australians did not have a problem with the idea of same-sex marriage.

The result was in keeping with other recent polls which have shown either a narrow or comfortable majority of people supports gay marriage. A different question, however, is whether people wanted the Gillard Government to act as a matter of urgency to legalise gay marriage.

I would suspect you would get a different answer from many respondents. In the current climate, I would suspect that you would get a hostile answer from many respondents.

The answer would probably run along these lines: “So they can’t protect our borders and they can’t stop the banks ripping us off and they can’t do anything about our power bills but at least they’re going to let blokes get married.”

In the broader political sense, it is hard to imagine a more left-field, down the order issue than same-sex unions. The number of people affected by the issue is small. That of itself should not be a reason to do nothing. But given the day-to-day domestic problems the Gillard Government has, many of them going to the fundamental question of the cost of living, it’s debatable whether Labor has the luxury of pursuing this issue during this difficult term.

For every person within the ALP who has had a sudden conversion to the gay marriage cause, there are others wondering whether the party risks marginalising itself by pursuing the issue at a time when, by way of understatement, it is not without its problems.

There’s a casual view in some sections of the party that the only people who would be outraged by gay marriage are all rusted-on Liberal enthusiasts who would only ever vote for Tony Abbott anyway.

This flawed analysis not only ignores the many thousands of Catholics who traditionally back the ALP. It also dismisses the views of those voters in marginal seats who might not be prejudiced, but simply want their government to be focussed on issues which affect their lives.

Indeed, it also dismisses the views of those voters in regional areas and poorer suburbs who are prejudiced. Another poll published yesterday showed that in 10 of the nation’s federal electorates, three of them held by the ALP, around 40 per cent of all voters agreed with the fairly unpleasant assertion that “homosexuality is immoral”. Conversely, in 10 of the most affluent inner-city electorates, the same assertion was supported by around 15 per cent of people.

Given these sorts of stats, the tactical question for Labor is this: is it more important to win back left-leaning voters in the inner cities who have drifted the Greens, or to stop swinging voters in heartland seats from switching to the Coalition?

The latter scenario would seem to be a much, much bigger threat to the ALP. 

The Gillard Government is already being pulled in different ideological directions and having its agenda set for it by others as a result of the weird circumstances by which it clung to power.

The Prime Minister is walking a tightrope where she has to placate both the rural independents and inner-city Greens. If she reverses her stand on this issue and allows a conscience vote, as many within the party are urging her to do, she will look even weaker. Not only will she look weaker, she’ll end up pursuing an issue which many voters regard as an irrelevance.

It is difficult to work out the logic behind the likes of NSW Right powerbroker Mark Arbib in suddenly championing this issue. My personal view is that it’s got nothing to do with politics and is more about being liked. Arbib is one of the most genial and easy-going people in politics but out there in voter-land he’s regarded as a flint-hearted faceless executioner who has Kevin Rudd’s blood on his hands. His conversion to the cause is I suspect more about a very human desire not to be hated by absolutely everybody.

The irony is that those, such as Arbib, who are now pushing the issue could have the undesired effect – presuming it’s undesired that is – of setting Julia Gillard on a deeply unpopular political course.
There’s a script written for her already and it was written by Kevin Rudd. Just as Kevin Rudd was “proud of the fact” that he’d said sorry to the stolen generation and, ummmmm, a couple of other things, Ms Gillard could find herself giving a similarly regretful one-term goodbye speech where the symbolic gesture of legalising gay marriage is the one thing she actually managed to do this term.

In addition of course to making way for a prime minister who makes the Pope look progressive on a number of issues.

240 comments

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    • Super D says:

      05:07am | 16/11/10

      One other aspect you haven’t covered is that the PM’s own marital status has an impact.  I’m sure she would prefer less talk of marriage, gay or otherwise and certainly won’t be out there advocating changes to an institution she has never seen fit to join.  (Yes I know it takes two).

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      09:28am | 16/11/10

      Super D :  I agree ,  Gillard’s marital status would most certainly have had a significant impact on Labor’s fortunes of recent late.
      The Prime Minister has presented a clean slate thus far , on the achievement front , a result of the influence of those who are propping up her teetering govt. They have set the agenda , Labor can do nothing but squirm on the proverbial hook while radical ideas are floated in the govt’s name .  Policy implementation remains at zilch , infrastructure projects stalled and Gillard looks even less capable of governing day by day.
      If Labor regards Gay Marriage as progressive , and subsequently legalise such an abomination , it is likely the only item of dubious distinction that could be claimed as an achievement by this hamstrung government.  Gillard’s days as P.M. are coming to a close quickly.

    • Molly Chambers says:

      03:10pm | 17/11/10

      Wayne: ‘legalise such an abomination’ - seriously, abomination? Are you really that close minded?

      Here we are claiming to be a nation which prides itself on equality and we can’t even allow people who differ from the heterosexual norm to get married. I think Australia needs to either allow homosexual marriages or admit to being prejudiced and discriminatory. Doing neither makes the government a blatant liar.

    • Against the Man says:

      05:50am | 16/11/10

      Add this to the list of problems and issues yet to be solved by the Gillard government. Boy the people are getting a raw deal with this government, a raw deal indeed.

    • Matt says:

      06:40am | 17/11/10

      Not just this government - there’s a stack of problems that have been left unresolved from the Howard era that are far more pressing than the issue of gay marriage. The quality of life gap between white and Indigenous Australians remains a greater issue of equality, in my opinion.

    • iansand says:

      06:02am | 16/11/10

      The political equation is stark.  Do nothing and piss of a relatively small number of people.  Do something and piss off a much larger group.

    • jeffb says:

      09:21am | 16/11/10

      iansand, I’m not sure that is actually true going by recent polling.

      Essential put 53% in favour with only 36% opposing it. No surprises its the right responsible for most of that opposition.

    • iansand says:

      09:41am | 16/11/10

      Is it a sufficiently important issue that it would cause you to change your vote if there is no reform?  If you were gay, perhaps.  If you are straight, probably not.

      However, if there was a change in policy you have 36% who might change their vote.

      The politics are pretty obvious.

    • jeffb says:

      10:54am | 16/11/10

      Thats the thing though the majority of the opposition is coming from the other side of politics. It doesn’t matter if moving on this issue will cause them not to vote for the ALP in the future, they already don’t.

    • Richard says:

      11:28am | 16/11/10

      No jeffb, didn’t you read Penbo’s piece? There is a huge bloc of catholic Labor voters how believe homosexuality is immoral. There are swinging voters in bogan-ville who think homosexuality is immoral. There are only a few gay and lesbian couple wanting to get married that vote Liberal.

    • iansand says:

      11:30am | 16/11/10

      I am not so sure that opposition is not cross party.  Remember, the Labor party has two constituencies - the latte left and the old style workers.  Their ideas do not always mesh.

    • Penneyforthem says:

      05:44pm | 16/11/10

      I already changed my vote in the federal election on this issue. And I’m straight. It’s a down the line civil rights issue and it makes me feel sick. I’m not voting for labor again until they stop pandering to bigots. End of story.

    • Drew(Darlinghurst) says:

      06:34am | 16/11/10

      Oh dear….one must realise that Governments can act one more than one issue. Same -Sex Unions are about Human Rights its a Civil Right. And for those who stand against the wave to end this discrimination will be left behind with all the other crazy red-necks

      Blacks should not marry
      Jews should not marry
      blue eyed people should not marry
      ranga’s should not marry

      See how outrageous this list seems???? I repeat… SAME SEX UNIONS EQUATES TO A BASIC CIVIL RIGHT.

      Cheers,
                Drew xx

    • Shane says:

      07:52am | 16/11/10

      What is outrageous about discriminating against Rangas?  I just don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to discriminate against them.

    • Peter says:

      08:15am | 16/11/10

      So where to next Drew? Marriage between Brother and Sister ?Father and Daughter? Mother and Son? or perhaps even Man and Animal? Those RED NECKS are sure to oppose those as well!

    • Sid says:

      08:31am | 16/11/10

      Yes, the moment you stand up for morality the pathetic imoral minority groups call you a red neck and drag in even more pathetic exagerations like your black and jew comments to justify the unjustifiable. Grow a backbone! PS a few brain cells as well won’t hurt.

    • PaulB says:

      08:43am | 16/11/10

      Peter I think you’ve been reading too much American Right-Wing rubbish.  You seem to have their buzz-phrases down pat.  Try thinking something original.  You can close your eyes if it helps generate something.

    • AliceC says:

      08:47am | 16/11/10

      @Peter

      I think you may be slightly dramatic with your extension of the laws of marriage. Relatives having sexual relationships is entirey different to unrelated consenting adults getting married. Plus, the Red Necks are probably the ones wanting to marry their own sister/mother/brother/animal (“Hey look, someone’s attractive cousin!” - The Simpsons)

      How on earth does two gay people affect your day to day living?

    • Harry says:

      08:50am | 16/11/10

      We said Drew. Now I will give you the reverse argument for those that are opposed to the gay violating the word marriage with their unnatural acts. Minority groups do not have the right to force their acts onto everyone else. It is like a RFL player joining a soccer team and screaming discrimination because they use a round ball and must not touch the ball. It is their civil (human) rights that the game of soccer start to use an RFL ball.  It is Lefty Red necks like you that have the following as acceptable

      Pedophiles allowed to violate children
      Black masses on every street corner
      Murders have rights over their victims.

      Exaggerations, yes, but it highlights the selfishness and stupidity and lack of morals of your argument.

    • John says:

      09:00am | 16/11/10

      Peter you obviously have something wrong with you if you can’t tell the difference between two consenting adults marring and animals. This “where does it end” argument is just so pathetically immature I wonder about the mental state of people who invoke it. Do you know what’s next for marriage after gay people are able to get married? NOTHING.

    • Barry says:

      09:13am | 16/11/10

      Ah the hypocrisy.  I don’t understand why people are so passionate about same sex marriage, yet continue to ignore the basic civil right of people to marry their mother, brother, father, or sister.  There won’t be true marriage equality until a son can marry his father.

    • AJB says:

      09:18am | 16/11/10

      By adding to the list of ‘Human Rights’ we just dilute the value of those which are most important to those who truly need their Human Rights protected. We are lucky to live in a country where things are pretty easy, but for many in the world rights are about safety, security, food, shelter, fair trials, legal imprisonment, rules of war etc….. Homosexuals getting married is a nothing. It’s not a “right” to get married. Ask Aung Sun Suu Kyi and the Burmese about human rights, maybe some Iraqi’s, Tibetans and West Africans also. I’m sure their first order of business will be gay marriage!

    • AJB says:

      09:19am | 16/11/10

      By adding to the list of Human and Civil “Rights” we just dilute the value of those which are most important to those who truly need their Rights protected. We are lucky to live in a country where things are pretty easy, but for many in the world rights are about safety, security, education, democracy, food, shelter, fair trials, legal imprisonment, rules of war etc….. Homosexuals getting married is a nothing. It’s not a “right” to get married. Ask Aung Sun Suu Kyi and the Burmese about “rights”, maybe some Iraqi’s, Tibetans and West Africans also. I’m sure their first order of business will be gay marriage!

    • jeffb says:

      09:24am | 16/11/10

      We aren’t talking about wholesale change of the marriage act Peter, try again.

    • Sam says:

      09:33am | 16/11/10

      jeffb. Cut the lie. The momment you remove the description that a marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN, you have defiled the core meaning of the word marriage.

    • Sandy says:

      09:59am | 16/11/10

      So what’s the debate Drew? Didn’t that woman stand up at the Western Sydney forum during the election and say “I want to be able to say will you marry me, not, will you civil union me”.  I’m sorry but the Church predates the legislature. ‘Marriage’ is the intellectual property of the Church.  And if the legislature feels that it is free to do whatever it wants with this IP, they’ll find the parishioners have no choice and religion will re-enter politics.  If the gay community wants more than just ‘civil union’ then they’ll have a far greater fight on their hands.

      Separation of Church and State is never going to be entirely possible.  We’re a lot further along than other countries.  But others are further than us.  In some countries, every single couple goes through two ceremonies.  A civil ceremony and a religious ceremony. Would this suffice? Or do some in the gay community want to show that secular society has defeated the religions that persecute homosexuality.

      Remember when wine appelations started.  There was uproar that the French were allowed to tell us we couldn’t use words like Burgandy and Champagne.  So we came up with our own words and made them enviable.  Words like Coonawarra and Barossa. We lost the battle but won the war.

    • Sandy says:

      10:15am | 16/11/10

      @ Harry.  “Exaggerations, yes, but it highlights the selfishness and stupidity and lack of morals of your argument.”  The way I see it, the community has offered ‘civil union’ but the gay community wants more. But ‘marriage’ is the property of religions. And religion predates the legislature. Where is the morals of the argument that the legislature can take away the church’s rights over it’s own property.

      If civil union and marriage have all the same rights under the cinstitution then so what if it uses a different word.  Or is there another agenda?

    • Peter says:

      10:22am | 16/11/10

      @ Alice C
      How is relatives having sexual relations any different to Homosexuality .They are all human and deserve all the same rights.Don’t they? Or is your view on this whole debate a little skewed towards your own moral leaning.How on earth does a brother and sister having sex affect YOUR day to day living?

    • Barry says:

      10:23am | 16/11/10

      @PaulB, AliceC.
      Bah, your comments just show the hypocrisy of your argument.  You attempt to focus the issue completely upon same sex marriage.  In truth though, there’s no difference between you and a person who is opposed to gay marriage.  The argument that same sex marriage is a basic civil right flows onto the argument that being able to marry any person you want is a basic civil right.  Why should same sex couples be allowed to marry, but the discrimination again inter-family marriages be allowed to continue?  Anyone who argues against inter-family marriage is committing the same discrimination as someone opposed to same-sex marriage.  You are just discriminating against a different minority group.  The size of which is completely irrelevant.  If you refuse to acknowledge the basic civil right of a father to marry his son, then you completely counter your argument for same-sex marriage.  You want to argue for same-sex marriage?? That’s cool go for it, but you have to be consistent.

    • StefanR says:

      11:02am | 16/11/10

      Hey Sandy, religion may predate the legislature, but marriage predates religion. Marriage is not the ‘intellectual property’ of the church as you claim and so your argument falls down.

    • jeffb says:

      11:08am | 16/11/10

      Sam, I for one think that changing the definition from a religion based “a MAN and a WOMAN” to two consenting adults would be a huge improvement.

    • Steph says:

      11:55am | 16/11/10

      I agree with Sandy. It has always been a religious ceremony (Like Christmas, or Easter) that has ingrained into societies. It was NEVER a secular thing that religion took up for themselves. History can prove me right there. Of course, history shows the state and church got along a lot better then.

    • David Terril says:

      12:00pm | 16/11/10

      Polygamy must then also be legal. If 2 gay consenting adults can get married then why night 3-4 consenting adults marrying to 1 person.

    • Corban says:

      12:02pm | 16/11/10

      Some are a little dim witted. If gay marriage is allowed, it does not open the door for what is currently illegal, i.e. family members getting married.

      And citing marriage as only a religious act? Aside from marriage pre-dating conventional Christianity, a very large section of society get married without being Christian. Civil celebrants perform marriages- if gay people cannot get married, then by many of your logic about divine processes civil celebrants should be banned!

      I am just thankful that the new generations, Y and Z, will provide this country with some much needed balls, for want of a better word.

    • Scott says:

      12:02pm | 16/11/10

      Why hasn’t any noticed the word ‘a” is discrimatory? What if I want multiple partners?

      If were making it so anyone can get “married” ( a religious insitution), then why can’t I marry 2 girls, and 1 guy? It’s just as discrimatory as the current “man and woman” definition.

      Leave it how it is. Marriage is not a basic civil right - it’s a religious defined union. Food, water, a fair trial in a court of law are civil rights.

    • Danny B says:

      12:05pm | 16/11/10

      Something that seems to be ignored in all this is the fact that until the marriage act was changed to define marriage as ‘between a man and a woman’ by the Howard government in 2004, gay marriage was legal.  I don’t see this so much as giving them the right to marriage as it is restoring it to them.

    • AliceC says:

      12:10pm | 16/11/10

      @ Peter

      ‘How is relatives having sexual relations any different to Homosexuality’

      Ok. Did you miss science class when you went to school? Do you understand the concepts of the possible physical ramifications of close relatives inter-breeding? Being homosexual IS completely different to inter-breeding, so don’t try and put them in the same bucket.

      @ Barry
      ‘Why should same sex couples be allowed to marry, but the discrimination again inter-family marriages be allowed to continue?’

      See my response to Peter, plus get some basic education on genetics.

    • Tim says:

      12:38pm | 16/11/10

      Ah Alice C,
      so your argument is that anyone who could have genetically impaired children should not be allowed to get married?
      And I thought procreation wasn’t what marriage was about? That’s what all the gay marriage proponents say isn’t it?

      When do we start the genetic profiling of prospective partners?

      Eugenics for everyone.

    • Peter says:

      01:04pm | 16/11/10

      @Alice C ..yes inter breading is totally different ,but we aren’t talking about breeding here are we Alice? Your argument based on science is very weak as getting married has nothing to do with having children,does it Alice? and this discussion is about human rights is it not? I just want to know how a brother and sister having a sexual relation or even marriage affects YOUR day to day life.

    • Barry says:

      01:54pm | 16/11/10

      @AliceC
      Genetics has little to do with whether or not someone possesses the basic civil right to marry whoever they please.  The fact that incest may lead to birth defects is irrelevant.  It’s still discrimination against a certain group of people who may wish to marry each other, which according to the argument is a basic civil right.  You are still saying to a person “You are not allowed to marry this person for . . . . . . whatever reason.”  It’s the exact same thing as someone saying two people of the same sex cannot be married.  Both deal with the same argument about basic civil rights.  Do you believe incest is unethical?  What do you base this upon?  You may think it’s undesirable from an evolutionary point of view, but that doesn’t immediately determine that the behaviour is unethical.  Would you also wish to ban disabled people who have inheritable disabilities from breeding?  This would also be desirable from an evolutionary point of view would it not?  Since I actually study biology at university, I’ll rely upon my basic knowledge of genetics.  You may wish to engage in some analytical thinking.

    • PaulB says:

      03:25pm | 16/11/10

      Peter.  Straw man argument.  Nothing more.  The debate is same sex marriage between consenting adults, not what may or may not come beyond that in your fevered imagination.

    • Rebecca says:

      11:01pm | 17/11/10

      J.e.s.u.s. C.h.r.i.s.t

      Ohh, the blasphemy!

      To all you rather close-minded people, who seem to think that religion was the start of everything (oh, and the religion that started it all was christianity, obviously) - seriously.  Get over yourselves.

      a)  Not everyone believes in your ‘God’ - indeed, not everyone believes in ANY god
      b)  Marriage IS NOT traditionally a religious ceremony.  Marriage is traditionally A CIVIL UNION -  a WEDDING is ‘traditionally’ a religious one.
      c)  There are a lot more immoral acts you religious folk should be stamping on - and you should take a good hard look at yourselves before speaking.  Have you heard about people who live in glass houses?
      d)  You have a right to your belief.  You do not have the right to impose that belief on others. 

      As far as I can see, same sex marriage can only make that portion of our society more happy, hopefully more healthy, and possibly even lower the divorce rate!  After all, a couple who have been together 15 years already, facing a lot of difficulties, and have stayed together through it all, certainly deserve the ability to marry - more so than the couple who’ve been together 6 weeks, and get married, then last 18 months.

    • Sandy says:

      08:58am | 19/11/10

      @ StafenR.  You counter my unsubstantiated arguement with your unsubstantiated argument.  My evidence is religious text, some of the oldest texts, and the classics (they believed in Gods). What your evidence?

      Doesn’t really matter either way.  Love got taken out of equation when Australia moved to ‘no fault’ separation. So it should be taken out of the ‘agreement’ completely. It’s incongruous. Otherwise the law on marriage in Australia is a cruel trap for the inoccent, naiive and trusting. And I thought the Greens were all about fairness and equity.  I guess not.  Like all politicians, they run into theological walls and will just end up throwing their hands up in the air, taking the path of least resistance, and just tilt the playing field in their favour.

    • Cate Swannell says:

      06:47am | 16/11/10

      There’s an easy way to stop same-sex marriage debate distracting the government from the ‘really important’ issues Penbo. Change the law to read ‘between two consenting adults’ and let us get on with it. Issue done with. It’s all the farting about and homophobia disguised as heterosexual privilege that is turning this into a ‘distraction’

    • James Bolster says:

      09:39am | 16/11/10

      I agree Cate. Penbo speaks as if this is the next ETS - that took month upon month to ‘thrash out’. It’s nothing like that. If Howard hadn’t rushed through such bigoted legislation to include ‘union between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others’ at the eve of the 2004 election then perhaps we could have had the debate that some people like Joan, below, are calling for. At least there is some media coverage to help the debate! The politicisation of Marriage in favour of right-wing Christians was abhorrent then, just as it is now. The cynic in me sees a clear connection between George Bush’s dash for relection on the same issue earlier in 2004.

    • Brutus Balan says:

      11:06am | 16/11/10

      If your irrational suggestion is adopted, then it is not just homosexuals but it will open up this same so called basic civil right of ‘other’ people to marry their mother, brother, father, sister, daughter or son.  And more, a woman may want to marry her dog or cat and a man may want to marry his donkey.  There won’t be true marriage equality until this is extended to all.  I smell a bad fart!!!

    • HappyCynic says:

      12:03pm | 16/11/10

      2 consenting and unrelated human adults, Cate, that should shut the idiots up (like Brutus Balan) who cry and whinge constantly about how allowing gays to marry will allow every twisted fool out there to marry the object of his/her desire.

      @Brutus, I don’t think there is a single supporter of gay marriage who would want to allow incestuous marriages or peadophiles or bestial marriages etc. and if there is then he or she needs to get their head checked.  In fact the only people I’ve noticed who seem so obsessed with allowing it appear to be opponents of gay marriage, which really says something about their twisted morality.  smile

    • Robert Moxey says:

      12:23pm | 16/11/10

      @Alice C

      You said homosexuality is about two consenting adults but what do you think relatives are, do you think two relatives ie. cousins or brother and sister cant consent.  Just because people say they consent does that mean we should allow it. 

      What happens to a guy that wants to be eaten and the person who eats him.  Is that ok?  No, the guy who killed him and ate him goes to jail because he clearly shouldnt be in society if he thinks it is ok to eat a fellow human being.

      Clearly you need more than consenting adults but you need to stick to morals that make up your society, so you dont have sick and disgusting things happen.  Otherwise your society would be in the gutter and no one would enjoy it or want it. 

      Consent doesnt make it right.

    • DG says:

      12:58pm | 16/11/10

      “is about two consenting adults but what do you think relatives are, do you think two relatives ie. cousins or brother and sister cant consent”

      This can be readily acknowledge in the same way that certain person are prevented from entering in relationships presently - doctors and patients, lawyers and clients, teachers and students and so forth due to the nature of the existing relationship between the parties. The same rule could apply with respect of persons related by blood.

    • Joan says:

      06:50am | 16/11/10

      Gillard who doesn’t believe in marriage for herself,  and Arbib who records Roman Catholic as his religion wants gay marriage. Are they to lead and speak alone on this ?There is no urgency for a decision .... lets discuss it - social commenators, religious leaders, gays and people of Australia - right up to next election and each party make their view clear to people of Australia .Great social change needs to make all Australians inclusive—- a conscience vote is not the answer to this question….a conscience vote is only possible if the MP has made it known to electors which way he will vote on this before he is voted in as MP.

    • jeffb says:

      09:27am | 16/11/10

      Joan, its somehow impossible for an MP to go back to his electorate after being elected to seek their opinions on a conscience vote?

    • DGSmith says:

      06:51am | 16/11/10

      David, you have highlighted what is just typical Labor.  Poll and focus group driven with a popularist agenda, meanwhile ordinary Australians are doing it tough under cost of living pressures.  This high spending, debt laden government are bereft of ideas and common sense.  As they focus on themselves and their skewed view of the nation’s agenda, although it is just them pandering to minorities and independent groups to garnish support, they forget the average Aussie. 

      No further example needs to be put forward than the great divide by Swan and Conroy over the OECD report.  Dismissed by Conroy because it doesn’t support his NBN, but lauded by Swan because it backed some aspects of financial management….....give me a break. 

      If only I could do a sleeping beauty and have a nap for the next 3 years and wake up to a new Liberal government. 

      Now that’s a true fairy tale story, better than the Stephen King’esque novel being written by the ALP now.

    • John says:

      09:03am | 16/11/10

      DGSmith you say this is just typical of labor. What is? As far as i can see they’ve been trying their best to avoid this issue.

    • JenfromNanaGlen says:

      07:05am | 16/11/10

      Gay marriage, yes just a red herring to take the pressure of Labor’s failed and failing policy issues.  How much money is being wasted while we argue about the merits of an issue that really shouldn’t be one!

    • majority says:

      07:17am | 16/11/10

      I think the other complication for Gillard is many people seem to think she is gay. To have an unmarried, heathen PM is one thing, a gay, unmarried, heathen PM would be too much. This is the other reason she can’t go there.

    • T.Chong says:

      08:09am | 16/11/10

      Well majority, only people who arent Punchers could possibly think Gillard is gay.
      When she first moved to the lodge, so many here ( The Punch) were aghast that the PM would be living defacto , with her fella.
      How were they to be introduced ? How would Her Maj ( no, not Janette Howard) react ? Would Ms PM and Mr PM towels be in the bathroom.?
      The anguish here was dreadful.
      But, funnily enough, the world still turned.

    • Phil says:

      08:20am | 16/11/10

      Someone did say that Tim was her beard!!! Whether this has any merit, personally I dont care, but hey.

    • PaulB says:

      08:50am | 16/11/10

      It was Tim’s sudden appearence out nowhere onto the media screen that raised eyebrows for some of us.  I had an acquaintance once who was winning on Sale of the Century, and was the second handsome, “single” young man to start winning everything in the same month.  A few episodes in they devised a girlfriend for him.  He was cheeky enough to “forget” her name at one stage there.  Point is, sometimes the narrative is what they think we need or want to hear, and props are sometimes needed to support that.

    • majority says:

      08:53am | 16/11/10

      T.Chong. I don’t think she is gay. Most people probably have a more casual interest in politics than Punchers and may not be aware of some history, for example PM Gillard and Craig Emerson

    • John says:

      09:05am | 16/11/10

      Majority you need to grow up. I didn’t even vote for labor but that was for issues of policy, not for pathetic immature reasons like her being a ‘heathen unmarried’

    • Muzz says:

      07:21am | 16/11/10

      Gillard and her Government have fires burning everywhere, I think she needs to deal with the fires already burning first. Although most of the fires have been burning since Labor took ofice 3 years ago and they just seem to be getting bigger. I pedict gay mariage will not be on the Labor Governments agenda for a very long time. They need to do the housework first.

    • Denny Crane says:

      07:37am | 16/11/10

      Bring on a referrendum, on the condition that the same day the vote for gay marriage is on, also we vote how to protect borders, lets see the greens face when that deal is proposed

    • Richard says:

      11:41am | 16/11/10

      Exactly right, when the majority of Australians are in favour in gay marriage (or in my case and I suspect many others, simply don’t care), the left is outraged by the lack of decisive government action.

      But when an even greater majority of Australians want decisive action to stop the influx of maritime asylum seeker arrivals, they say its just because we’re all rednecks and we should be ignored.

    • The Scarlet Pimpernel says:

      11:51am | 16/11/10

      Richard

      good call. There are more important issues affecting a majority of Australians than whether a small number of them can refer to themselves as married.

    • Andrew says:

      03:24pm | 16/11/10

      The number of people actually affected by boat arrivals of asylum seekers is probably lower than the number of people who would benefit from gay marriage. “Stopping the boats” will probably make no difference to the day to day lives of the majority of Australians.

    • Wok says:

      07:39am | 16/11/10

      Pandering her pandering there with no idea, no cause, no spine and both eyes on the opinion polls and the focus groups.  The ALP government is lost.  It actually makes the Rudd government look half decent.

    • Phil says:

      09:28am | 16/11/10

      Wok you are spot on. As a liberal voter, I thought Gillard could do a better job than Rudd. He is actually looking better every day of her Prime Ministership.
      They care only about reelection and their root causes, not Australia, its citizens etc.

    • Dave-o says:

      07:54am | 16/11/10

      I don’t think “legalise gay marriage” is the correct term. It assumes that living together in a committed relationship that isn’t hetro is somehow a criminal act. By changing the law you simply recognise the rights of a small but vital part of our community. It’s time someone in the government articulated the issue properly corrected this injustice and got on with the real issues. Leaving it alone for fear reprisal or ridicule is the same gutlessness that cost Rudd his office.

      Anyone quoting Old Testament Scripture as fact or law should be in church not government.

    • JJ says:

      04:28pm | 16/11/10

      The Christian Bible is the basis for our whole legal system Dav-o. What’s wrong with quoting the original reference every now and then?

    • NEFFA says:

      05:19pm | 16/11/10

      Small but vital? how do you work that out?

    • Dave-o says:

      03:36pm | 17/11/10

      Firstly while some parts of our legal system have been borrowed from theology, we certainly don’t condone slavery and child abuse as per the dribbles teachings.

      Secondly, in most societies where (third gender/homo sexual couples)  existed they are revered for the ability to perform all gender roles in a family without introducing their own biological children. Natures way of effective birth control and child care. The number of homosexuals living together would be less than 10%. Therefore, small but vital.

    • TrueOz says:

      07:55am | 16/11/10

      Why is it that the government is involved in regulating the private relationships of anyone - straight or gay - monogamous or poly? The real question that needs to be asked is not whether or not gay marriage should be permitted, but whether or not government has any legitimate role at all in the marriage contract.

    • Brad says:

      09:55am | 16/11/10

      finally someone said the bleeding obvious.

    • Tim says:

      10:47am | 16/11/10

      Exactly,
      repeal the marriage act and devise a new law to protect people’s rights in ANY relationship that they want to register.
      Somehow however, I don’t think this will satisfy the Gay Lobby’s need for “Equality”.

    • Alexander says:

      12:49pm | 16/11/10

      Here is a sad revelation for you. 
      Marriage is not about religion or about people or about relationships.  It is about Property.  And Property is the business of Kings and Governments.  Marriage determines who will inherit what, who will pay what taxes to whom and these are all things that the Government cares about.

    • the apologist says:

      12:50pm | 16/11/10

      @TrueOz: Because protection of the institution of marriage and healthy citizens (who are raised in families generally) is fundamental to the health of the society. If you don’t bother protecting it, then you’re undermining a healthy society.
      The legal aspect of marriage also protects the interests of both parties (e.g. in the event of divorce), and emphasises the importance of commitment to one another and the fact that it’s a serious commitment. If we took your line of thought, we’d have a society full of unregulated sexuality, which would be dangerous and destructive.

    • TrueOz says:

      02:15pm | 16/11/10

      @the apologist

      Soooooo - what you’re really saying is…

      that politicians and public servants are so intellectually and morally superior to the rest of us, that it should be their job alone to decide the manner in which we organise our intimate human and contractual (yes marriage is a contract) relationships, and…

      that most other people in society are so intellectually stunted and devoid of any form of morality that the beneficial effects of family would be obscured from their (obviously stupid) view, and they would suddenly start copulating in the streets due to the lack of legally imposed standards - right?

      I think that your parents should have used better contraception.

    • TrueOz says:

      02:19pm | 16/11/10

      @Alexander

      Just because the government cares about something does not make their role in it legitimate. People are asking the wrong questions - that’s why they’re getting crappy answers.

    • Scarneck says:

      07:55am | 16/11/10

      I couldn’t give a damn about same sex marriage, either way it doesn’t worry me in the slightest. I’ve never understood why people are so put off by the issue. The Government will not lose any votes passing same sex marriage legislation, they would most likely gain support. Would someone change the way they vote just because the same sex couple living next door can now marry legally?  I doubt it.

    • Claire says:

      09:15am | 16/11/10

      I think you underestimate the number of people in this country who DO give a damn about same-sex marriage - people who think it’s a crime against God. I can’t understand it either, but I do think that the Government will definitely lose votes if they took a stance on this. They might gain some too, but will definitely lose some.

    • Jane says:

      07:59am | 16/11/10

      The Government obviously have the same view on trying to slow the boats, after all it’s also only a small number of people coming here by boat so lets try and ignore the issue.

    • Biteme says:

      08:02am | 16/11/10

      The polls commissioned by the Gay Lobby are showing results of stealth questions. I’m not against Gay people having every right as anybody else in the community. But O do get annoyed with groups play games. The question is not about gay people being recognised as legal partners, of course most people support that. It’s about using the traditional word “Marriage”.

    • Old Clive says:

      08:03am | 16/11/10

      Stability ! Stability ! Foolya Joolya cannot provide stability because she has never experienced it, she has always lusted after power just like her predecessor. Marriage between man and woman produces stability for the offspring of that marriage in most cases, now the homosexual lobby is going to tell me that they can do the same, I dispute that by the number of adoptees who are trying to seek out their original birthrights, I am also going to be accused of being homophobic to try and make me fel inferior when it is blatantly obvious that they accusers are the ones who are feeling that way, and that is because they know that they are.

    • PolarBear says:

      08:23am | 16/11/10

      @Old Clive - I’m not going to accuse you of being homophobic, because by you acknowledging that people would call you homophobic implies that you know you are and are quite comfortable with that fact. It’s an issue most heterosexual, middle-aged people in their comfortable middle-class worlds don’t have to deal with. But imagine for a second that it’s your daughter or your son. Imagine that they have a loving partner, a stable home and are essentially living in a relationship that is equal to, if not far superior to, most heterosexual ‘marriages’. Then imagine that the parents of your child’s partner don’t like your child. Your child’s partner gets ill and goes to hospital. Despite being in a relationship of many years (some as many as 25 - longer than most marriages!), your child is denied the right to visit their partner. God forbid, the partner dies - your child, who has spent a lifetime building this relationship, loses everything due to an outdated law that says same-sex couple do not have the same legal rights - including rights to property, despite many of these relationships being stronger than many heterosexual relationships. Just imagine, through your prejudice - for one micro-second - that this is your child. Would never happen to you? Are you sure? My parents thought the same, until it happened to them. I’m not asking you to become a card-carrying member of PFLAG, but just imagine what it might be like for you and your child.
      Homosexuals are not inferior. But attitudes such as yours are.

    • Two Mummies says:

      08:33am | 16/11/10

      Your assumption that the only way gay and lesbian couples have children is through adoption is wrong. The majority of children within gay families have links with both biological parents either through having been conceived in previous straight relationships or having been conceived with known male donors in the case of lesbian couples.  I don’t think you are homophobic just ill-informed.

      If marriage produces stability for offsrping then by denying gay couples the right to marry you are denying children the right to a stable home by your logic.

    • Sam says:

      09:40am | 16/11/10

      Problem solved PolarBear. Cut trying to defile the word marriage and accept the word union or what ever word you want to use that has not got a meaning and get on with your life. News flash, you don’t have a moral right to violate straight peoples morals especially with the hyperthetical dribble presented.

    • RGG says:

      10:09am | 16/11/10

      Sam: “Problem solved: the blacks can sit up the back of the bus I’m on. They still get to ride a bus right? There’s no need for them to defile the white section.”

      Unless you think homosexuality is a choice?

    • Empire says:

      10:17am | 16/11/10

      Polar Bear -There are many people who disagree with the term Marriage, including most churches, and myself.
      I’m not Homophobic, I have plenty of Gay friends and relatives, I think we are all entitled to the same rights, and that a civil Union is exactly the same as marriage, with the same legal rights and entitlements.I also think that if you don’t believe in God and you are a heterosexual couple, a civil union is all you should be entitled to.The fact is that Marriage the churches and god are all intertwined and nothing is going to change that. I have seen gay couples raising adopted children, and they were the best parents I have ever seen, and any hospital that stops the partner seeing his boyfriend or girlfriend while sick, is as much to blame as the nasty parents are. I’m not saying the churches are right and that there won’t be plenty of gay people in heaven ( and I Know there will), I’m just saying be happy with what you can get, Instead of needing it to be called a Marriage Certificate, the same rights are what you want aren’t they?  I suppose I;m not 100% sure are gay people allowed a civil Union, and does this entitle them to the same rights as marriage?

    • PolarBear says:

      10:35am | 16/11/10

      @Sam,
      The word is ‘hypothetical’ - don’t use it if you can’t spell it.
      Also, it’s not hypothetical dribble. It’s real life. Maybe not a life that you have experienced, but it is reality for thousands of people in this country, and literally millions more around the world.
      Your choice of the word “defile” indicates where you really stand on the issue. You could have chosen any number of words in its place, but the mere fact that you said ‘defile’ shows that you think homosexuals are dirty. I’m not trying to violate anyone’s morals, straight or otherwise, but I am asking for equal rights. I don’t ask straight people to come to bed with me, and I don’t force my identity or beliefs on them either. I don’t conform to some ‘stereotype’ of lesbianism - you’ve probably walked past me on the street and not known. I don’t walk around carrying a rainbow flag or telling everyone that will listen my sexual preference. If you ask, I’ll tell you, but I see no need to shout it from the rooftops. I am a contributor to society, I work and pay tax, I mind my own business and I ask that others do the same. So please, tell me how I’m violating your, or any other straight person’s morals.
      I don’t care what you call it - marriage or union - but it ultimately leads to the same thing. Nor am I asking to get married in a church. In fact, a survey in 2010 by the Australian Marriage Celebrants indicates that only 25% of Australians favour getting married in a church - so it seems that not only do gay couples not want a church marriage ceremony, but neither do most straight couples!
      I think the problem lies with the term marriage. It seems that all of a sudden, marriages are the domain of religious people for cermonies performed in churches. Does that mean that people of different religions who choose to marry in a garden aren’t ‘married’? The term ‘union’ should surely apply there too.
      I’ve tried to get on with my life - but ignorant individuals continually bring up problems with the word ‘marriage’. The sky will not fall, the world will not end and no-one is going to die if you allow gay people to get married. I’ll get on with my life when the law says that I have the same rights as the rest of this country - the legal right to marry the person I want to spend the rest of my life with, and have it recognised.

    • Truth Seeking Missile says:

      12:25pm | 16/11/10

      Not homophobic, just up to speed with the playbook, written in the 1980s:

      “If, however, gays can live alongside straights, visibly but as inoffensively as possible, they will arouse a low-grade alert only, which, though annoying to straights, will eventually diminish for purely physiological reasons. Straights will be desensitized… We can extract the following principle for our campaign to desensitize straights to gays and gayness, inundate them in a continuous flood of gay-related advertising, presented in the least offensive fashion possible. If straights can’t shut off the shower, they may at least eventually get used to being wet.”

      —Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen, “After the Ball - How America will conquer its fear and hatred of Gays in the 90s.” , Penguin Books, 1989.

    • James1 says:

      08:14pm | 16/11/10

      Indeed Sam.  Heterosexual people have done a wonderful job at defiling the word marriage, and need no help in that endeavour.

    • Andy1 says:

      08:05am | 16/11/10

      Maybe they could make a start with bi-sexual marriage first.

    • shep says:

      08:24am | 16/11/10

      Seriously funny comment.

      It kind of distilled down very quickly just how important this subject is in the scheme of things.

      Legal rights absolutely - marriage no.

    • Brett says:

      08:11am | 16/11/10

      Why can’t people learn to judge others based on their personalities.. rather than their religious or sexual preferences?

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:11am | 16/11/10

      I really doubt the line that “most Australian support gay marriage”.

      Why? Because news outlets like this one simply don’t publish photos of two guys swapping spit.

      What you do, and will see are lovely pics of cute and young women or even girls in a lovely, tender and touching embrace.

      When I see a published pic of a middle-aged male couple in a steamy pash, then I’ll believe most Australia want gay marriage.

    • DANN2292 says:

      08:14am | 16/11/10

      Gillard does not appear to have any AGENDA. Her latest speech was her usual bulldust ” i wanna rich country”,Iwanna’ etc just like she was Angry (wow!) at the banks but when it came to confronting them it was anxiety instead. That is not leader and which joolie was it? As for same sex marriage -if she puts that before looking after the public dental, Pensioners, homeless people,housing -things that are Priority to the Australian citizens
      ,things that really matter !
      Marriage is creating a family which is NORMAL but same sex marriage is not ,otherwise, if was, we would not be here and it wouldve been Adam and Steve instead of Adam and Eve. To me gays and muslims are always attempting to change Australias normal,tolerate attitude to theirs. So Julia -exactly what is your AGENDA,yes AGENDA. I wanna know-explain please.

    • dead to me says:

      05:39pm | 16/11/10

      Her agenda is to be the 1st female PM for the history books. She doesn’t care about policy or what happens to the Australian people in the long run. Rudd suckered the people into voting for him and so did she. Only pressure on the independent and greens from the people of Australia to call a new election can stop her.

    • The Scarlet Pimpernel says:

      08:17am | 16/11/10

      Just call it something else, please. Same sex unions are fine, but a ‘‘marriage’’ is between a husband and a wife.

    • vix says:

      08:25am | 16/11/10

      I’m always mystified how THEY come up with these statistics.  I mean, where do these polls come from?  I, for one, have never been asked for an opinion.  How is it then, that MOST Australians approve gay marriage, for instance?

    • Paul says:

      08:37am | 16/11/10

      Vix - Exactly 68.3% of all statistics are made up, Didnt you know?

    • Tedd says:

      10:59am | 16/11/10

      Paul, where’s ya margin of error?

    • jeffb says:

      11:04am | 16/11/10

      You take a small sample from the population and extrapolate that out to get a result. The smaller the sample the larger the margin of error, if the sample is too small then result can be consider not statistically significant.

      It’s that simple.

    • Paul says:

      03:22pm | 16/11/10

      Tedd - its my statistic. Leave me alone.

    • lardlord says:

      08:26am | 16/11/10

      This is something that can be easily done, and passed.
      Once it is does, the sky wont fall, slippery slopes will not exist (IE marrying animals or chairs)
      Lets get it over and done with, and concentrate on the tougher issue.
      Not what some religious individuals have a fear of.

    • Dan says:

      08:34am | 16/11/10

      Maybe the Tasmanians could jump on the bandwagon and legalize sibling marriages. Is there not more important things to talk about. The Greens are anything but “Green” these days, it has turned into a soapbox for the self interested minorities. Religiphobia is alive, be wary of the Religiphobics.

    • Jason says:

      08:37am | 16/11/10

      Yeah denying people equality is irrelevant.. they lost because they had nothing to stand for mate. If they stood for marriage equality at least they would have something to fight for.

    • DG says:

      08:37am | 16/11/10

      “the Galaxy survey found that 62 per cent of Australians did not have a problem with the idea of same-sex marriage.”

      does not show that:

      “either a narrow or comfortable majority of people supports gay marriage. ” the use of the word ‘support’ is interesting as it implies active encouragement as opposed to an apathetic “They should be allowed, but I don’t care enough to support it”.

      Without having seen the actual questions I wonder how big the “I don’t care/It’s not an issue” group is. Given the false dichotomy of having to either support or oppose gay marriage will give a skewed result one way or the other.

      It didn’t take long to find some elaboration: according to The Age website “After being told same sex marriage was legal in countries like Canada, the Netherlands, Norway and parts of the United States, voters were asked whether they agreed or disagreed that same sex couples in Australia should be allowed to marry: 62 per cent agreed, 33 per cent disagreed and five per cent were undecided.”

      So when asked if we should be like other ‘developed’ nations people said “yes”. Given the primer of “These places allow gay marriage, should it be banned here?”, it’s rather difficult for a person to self report to be against the idea. It certainly influences those who are “undecided” to go with the populist approach. It’s not surprising that if, even with that primer, only 62% supported the idea the government would be reluctant to make it a key policy.

      If the lead in were “Most of the Americas, Europe, Asia and the rest of the world ban homosexual marriage - should permit such an abomination in Australia?” the result would likely be very different.

      The whole point of the primer to a question is to influence the decision of the respondent. A poll without the guiding words (for that is their purpose) would be interesting.

    • Tim says:

      10:53am | 16/11/10

      Of course they asked leading questions. This was a poll being paid for by the Gay lobby to get the result they wanted.
      As well as this, you’ll note that they didn’t offer a “don’t care” option in the question. It was simply a “do you approve or disapprove” question.
      I think if they asked do you “approve, disapprove or don’t care” the “don’t cares” would be significant.

    • kylie says:

      03:57pm | 16/11/10

      Tim - they did ask the ‘i dont care’ question.

      The options were:
      Support - 53%
      Dont know / dont care - 11%
      Against - 36%

    • Tim says:

      11:44am | 17/11/10

      Kylie,
      the “I don’t cares” reported were unprompted answers.
      The question was support or don’t support, not support, don’t support or don’t care.
      Leaving out don’t care in the question forces some people to choose one option or the other when they really couldn’t give a rats.
      I think the apathy of most people to this issue is under-represented.

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      08:47am | 16/11/10

      Remove the word ‘marriage’ from the marriage act and substitute another term. Call all contracts between people living together a ‘contractual civil union’ under secular law and those sanctioned by the church or God as ‘marriage.’ Satisfies me and would probably satisfy a lot of others.
      The argument is not about the term ‘marriage’ but about the rights that goes with a contractual civil union. In the marriage contract there is an assumption of consummation by sexual intercourse. This is the bit that I oppose - coitus between same sex couples. Willies and bottoms; fannies and fannies just don’t go together as far as my definition of coitus goes.

    • neil says:

      08:58am | 16/11/10

      Same sex couples can never be married because that is not what the word means. I could call myself Aboriginal but I’m not because that is not what the word means.

      So even if laws are changed same sex couples may have a piece of paper that says they are married but they won’t be, because that is not what that word means.

      They are going to have to find another word.

    • Two Mummies says:

      09:26am | 16/11/10

      We don’t have to find another word. Make the term ‘marriage’ only relevant to church blessed/sanctioned unions and let the rest of Australia gay or straight have civil unions. Simple solution which will allow churches to continue to discriminate against people they want to discriminate against (I was going to type gay people but there are so many others the churches love to have a go at).

      Easy fix!

    • jeffb says:

      09:32am | 16/11/10

      The definition of marriage as between a man and a woman is purely a religious one, not one that can be imposed on all Australians.

    • RGG says:

      09:39am | 16/11/10

      This will blow your mind: “traditional marriage” dates back over 4000 years, and used to refer to polyamorous marriage - not the “one man one woman” paradigm we have today, which really only evolved in the last 5-800 years.

      Those advocating “traditional marriage” should check into their local mosque or mormon temple and ask how they can support bringing it back.

      Words change. “Seperate but equal” is not equal. Homosexual marriage should be law and I do not look forward to how the bigoted ideals of this generation will be perceieved by the next.

    • Tim says:

      10:56am | 16/11/10

      RGG,
      and I don’t look forward to how future generations will look at our bigoted ideas about polygamous marriage or incestuous marriage either.
      You said it, seperate but equal is not equal.

    • iansand says:

      02:03pm | 16/11/10

      jeffb - The common law definition of marriage is a ‘union between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others for life’.

      The Romans had several words for marriage, denoting at least3 different concepts.  One was equivalent to our de facto stumbling into it sort of thing.  The next was similar to or idea of marriage - prima facie permanent, solemnised by a ceremony but could be undone and dynastic marriages, usually for political reasons - permanent and indissoluble.  That is why emperors tended to kill their superfluous wives.  Other societies had different rules.  Marriage has not always had the connotations that we assume it has.

    • jeffb says:

      02:54pm | 16/11/10

      Sure Iansand, marriage has meant many different things over the years, I’m well aware of that. That doesn’t change the fact the the current meaning is based in religion and that’s what we’re talking about here, the current meaning of marriage.

      Perhaps those opposed could save us all some time and justify why they deserve the right to discriminate?

    • Doug Pollard says:

      09:02am | 16/11/10

      Sexuality is unrelated to either relationship stability or parenting ability: a very large percentage of heterosexuals stuff up both royally, as divorce and child abuse statistics amply prove.
      Equal marriage is a matter of simple justice - we are every bit as good as you and every bit as deserving of exactly the same rights, same as blacks, Jews, Chinese and every other minority you’ve tried to scapegoat for your own failures over the years.
      Not everyone likes the idea - well, tough. Get over it. We are not a ‘distraction’ we are Australian citizens being denied our rights. That is not a ‘minor’ issue - it is fundamental to what sort of country we are and what sort of party Labor is. If the fuss annoys you, there’s a simple solution. Fix it and move on. Now.

    • Debbie says:

      02:49pm | 16/11/10

      Well said Doug, I totally agree with you. I am married to my husband and cannot possibly see how the same sex marriage dbases or afects my marriage in any way shape or form. There is a considerable number of Australian citizens who are denied the right to marry because of their sexuality and the time has come when we simply need to make it legal and move on. It will not affect the institution of marriage, nor “debase” my marriage, because you are married to someone of the same sex.

    • JJ says:

      04:15pm | 16/11/10

      I disagree Doug. Sexuality has a lot to do with parenting ability. A child needs a Mum and a Dad, femininity and masculinity. A man cannot bestow femininity just as much as a woman cannot bestow masculinity. Credible studies have backed this up. Kids do better in all areas if they have a Mum and a Dad. And yes, I do realise there are single parents out there that do a stellar job and I commend them, however I don’t think any single parent, if at all possible would want their child to not have both parents.
      In regard to discrimination, I think we’re on a similar page. Gay people should not be discriminated against and or polies should be ensuring this is the case.

    • Marco says:

      10:48am | 18/11/10

      JJ. I’m afraid you’re wrong, credible studies have found that two parents, of any gender is what is ideal for children


      The American Academy of Pediatrics stated in Pediatrics in 2006:
      ‘More than 25 years of research have documented that there is no relationship between parents’ sexual orientation and any measure of a child’s emotional, psychosocial, and behavioral adjustment. These data have demonstrated no risk to children as a result of growing up in a family with 1 or more gay parents. Conscientious and nurturing adults, whether they are men or women, heterosexual or homosexual, can be excellent parents. The rights, benefits, and protections of civil marriage can further strengthen these families.’

      A literature review prepared for the Australian Psychological Society noted in 2007:
      ‘The family studies literature indicates that it is family processes (such as the quality of parenting and relationships within the family) that contribute to determining children’s wellbeing and ‘outcomes’, rather than family structures, per se, such as the number, gender, sexuality and co-habitation status of parents. The research indicates that parenting practices and children’s outcomes in families parented by lesbian and gay parents are likely to be at least as favourable as those in families of heterosexual parents, despite the reality that considerable legal discrimination and inequity remain significant challenges for these families.’
      http://www.psychology.org.au/Assets/Files/LGBT-Families-Lit-Review.pdf

    • just statin' says:

      09:10am | 16/11/10

      Is there any evidence that people are born gay? If it’s genetic, how did it survive evolution? If it’s the biological conditions in the womb, can’t that be treated with medication?

      We should be able to answer these questions before gay marriage is made legal - science, medicine and psychiatry may offer much better alternatives for everyone involved. The goal of course is make gay people not want to be gay so they get to enjoy all of life’s pleasures like the rest of us, i.e. biological marriage, parenting, gran kids, and so on.

    • Kitty says:

      10:06am | 16/11/10

      I wonder if it was genetics or the biological conditions of your mother’s womb that are responsible for your idiocy!?

    • Mary says:

      10:13am | 16/11/10

      You are quite the uneducated bigot aren’t you ?

      Have you ever considered the flip side to your argument relating to parenting etc What about the straight couples who aren’t able to have children ? Should they not be allowed to marry if they can’t procreate ?

      Sorry to say but I enjoy all of lifes pleasures & I am in a same sex relationship.

      You are a absolute fool.

    • AliceC says:

      10:22am | 16/11/10

      You cannot be serious??? So being gay must be obliterated any way possible, using unnatural resources (i.e. medication)?

    • just statin' says:

      11:27am | 16/11/10

      I didn’t mean to offend, just an opinion that I thought everyone could celebrate.

      Mary, If you were offered a pill that would make you straight (your personality would be the same), would you have it, or would you choose to remain gay?

      It’s very likely that people will have this option within the next 20 years….

    • Tim says:

      11:34am | 16/11/10

      Mary,
      are you comparing being Gay to having a disease or genetic defect?

    • Adrian says:

      12:31pm | 16/11/10

      Haha this comment made me laugh at first coz I thought it was a very clever and hilariously ironic take on the mindset of an stupid person.

      Then i realised it was written by a stupid person.

      For the record I am opposed to same sex marraige (I guess that puts me in the minority) but to say that gay people should be breeded out is possibly the most digusting thing I have read on this website. Homosexuality is not a disease you fool, it’s a sexual orientation.

    • James1 says:

      12:57pm | 16/11/10

      That assumes being gay is a choice.  Which leads me to assume that just statin’ is in fact gay themself, and has made a choice not to act on their homosexuality.  If you are attracted to people of the same sex, just statin’, it is okay.  You don’t need to hide what you are any longer.

    • just stating' says:

      03:38pm | 16/11/10

      Adrian, you obviously have no idea what I’m saying - no one will be bred out because the urge won’t exist in the first place, according to science. This kind of experiement is already being tested. (see congenital adrenal hyperplasia). Sorry if my comments were inartful.

      @ James1, that was sophomoric (conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature).

    • Truth Seeking Missile says:

      05:00pm | 16/11/10

      @Mary:  “uneducated bigot”, “fool”. Hmm, you follow the Kirk-Madsen playbook very well, don’t you? What a masterful piece of marketing it was, its procedures and rules are used even by people who have never even heard of it. Calling people names that are at odds with how they would like to see themselves is called ‘Jamming’, it’s the second stage of ‘Desensitize, Jam, Convert’. I may disagree with what Kirk and Madsen were seeking to achieve but I’m full of admiration for how successful their manifesto has been, it should be read by everyone, it’s just so brilliant.

    • James1 says:

      08:25pm | 16/11/10

      just statin’,

      So you don’t think its a choice?  You should be confident that letting people who have no choice in what they are that engage in a perfectly legal activity get married to the people of their choice will have no effect on you then, surely. 

      Otherwise, if it is not just the way they are, then something must make them that way.  That must be either a choice, or their environment, which implies we are all gay, its just that some of us choose not to act on it, or are otherwise prevented from acting on it.  I know that I am definitely not attracted to men, at all, that I never have been, and that this means I am a heterosexual person.  If you are not sure whether you were born homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual or transexual, why else would you advance such arguments?  So I still have to assume that you are either gay or bisexual.  Otherwise you would know where you stand, and that you were born the way you are.  If I am poorly informed, it is only because I can only make judgements based on the evidence before me.  And your confusion over the nature and cause of homosexuality leads me to think that you are confused about the nature and cause of homosexuality.

      Is that better?

    • Marco says:

      10:47am | 18/11/10

      There are certain theories floating around.

      1. A few studies have suggested that relatives of gay people are more fertile and gay people help out with parenting. This is the Gay Uncle theory

      2. Men with more older brothers are more likely to be gay. It is suggested that pregnant women see male babies as a foreign object, hormonally speaking and it seems that they get better at ‘feminising’ a male baby after each male child.

      Unfortunately there hasn’t been much study into what causes lesbianism
      but studies of Gay people have noted that brain scans on parts of the brain that is known to be developed in utero are different. i.e. not affective by environment. Gay men’s are like women’s and Lesbian’s are like men’s.


      ‘There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.’
      (American Psychological Association, http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/sorientation.pdf)


      Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice, though sexual behaviour clearly is. Thus LGB people have exactly the same rights and responsibilities concerning the expression of their sexuality as heterosexual people. However, until the beginning of more liberal social attitudes to homosexuality in the past two decades, prejudice and discrimination against homosexuality induced considerable embarrassment and shame in many LGB people and did little to encourage them to lead sex lives that are respectful of themselves and others.
      (Royal College of Psychiatrists, http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/Submission to the Church of England.pdf

    • AdamC says:

      09:11am | 16/11/10

      I disagree with Penbo here. The political calculus for the ALP now supports a ‘grand gesture’ on a lefty totem issue. Gay marriage happens to be a lefty totem issue that many people are either in favour of or reasonably ambivalent to. Rather than obsessing about being criticised for caving in to their loony fringe about trivialities (rather than their broad union base on major IR issues) Labor should be more concerned about their left wing being hollowed-out by the Greens.

      Of course, that isn’t to say gay marriage is a good idea, or that Gillard won’t be sharply criticised by some. At the end of the day, that ’ some’ - family values and religious organisations - are a little like the asylum seeker lobby: high profile but with little actual voter support.

      For the government, a bold stance on gay marriage is now the politically smart option.

    • Anthony Gauci says:

      09:16am | 16/11/10

      new flavour of the month {turd] the way this country’s going you will be able to by turd flavoured chips.

    • Down from the River says:

      09:24am | 16/11/10

      Looks like it will be gayme over for Gillard and her government pretty soon.

    • Proud to be Catholic and a Labor voter says:

      09:29am | 16/11/10

      Catholics = Labor Voters??? R u serious?  Catholic = Conservative.  All the Catholics I know (of which I’m one) are died in the wool card-carrying Liberals.  You’ve only got to look at Abbott and his band of merry Catholics to see that!

    • Peter says:

      09:34am | 16/11/10

      Gays should just get over themselves and stop trying to change laws in order to make themselves feel normal.Homosexuality shouldn’t be discriminated against and acknowledged as being part of society but lets not try to pretend that being gay is the same as being heterosexual.Let them be united and give them the same rights but call it something else.

    • RGG says:

      10:07am | 16/11/10

      Why should it be called something else Peter? This isn’t a rhetorical question.

      Are you saying that the government should give special recognition to the religious definition of the word marriage? There are many different religions in Australia, many of which have differing definitions of the word. So do you mean that the government should legislate in favour of the Christian definition? Surely not, as that would be against the Constitution.

      “Marriage” is a term which encompasses the legal rights two persons hold when they enter their contract with the state. Maybe it is the bigots who should perhaps “get over themselves”? Your implication that homosexuals are abnormal, and that this is a negative thing, is offensive.

    • Trevor says:

      11:17am | 16/11/10

      Wow. Saying homosexuality shouldn’t be discriminated against AND that homosexuality is ‘not normal’ in the same post is a pretty good effort at self-delusion.

      It’s not all that common, I’ll grant you. But you chose the word ‘normal’.

    • Sandy says:

      09:51am | 19/11/10

      @ RGG.  Hey, using different terms is just a way of solving this impasse.  The religious don’t want to share the podium with you. If you want to use our government to bash the religous on the head then you’re no better than they are.  And I pay. And I’ll do everything I can to minimise that.

      To me the solution is simple.  Further separation of religion and state. But you’ve got some other agenda. It seems you want your beliefs to conquer other’s beliefs.

    • AJ says:

      09:39am | 16/11/10

      I support legalising same-sex marriage, even though I don’t intend to have one (or an opposite-sex marriage either).

      I appreciate that it is an issue that impacts a minority of Australians and that logically it is not as important as other national issues like climate change, housing affordability, immigration, refugees, Australia’s continued involvement in foreign wars, etc.

      BUT it is an issue which could be very quickly and easily rectified as compared to all those other national issues for which there is no “easy fix”. All it would take to legalise same-sex marriage is a minor amendment of the Marriage Act and presumably a minor amendment to the Anti-Discrimination legislation to provide that it is “lawful” for religious bodies to discriminate against same-sex couples when it comes to performing marriage ceramonies or permitting the use of their churches.

      Given that it is an issue that can be resolved quickly and easily, I think it is important for the issue to continue to be debated (both in parliament and in the community) until action is taken.

    • Vince says:

      09:55am | 16/11/10

      Gillards never had a problem changing her mind before…......
      YES, I support an ETS - NO, I don’t support an ETS
      YES, I support Kevin Rudd as PM - NO, I don’t support Kevin Rudd as PM
      No, I don’t support a carbon tax - Yes, I support a carbon tax
      It all depends on popularity and the polls with Gillard and Labor. They don’t think for themselves and don’t have the courage of their convictions.
      No, I don’t support gay marriage - ??? wait for more polls to dictate what to do.

    • Katie says:

      09:58am | 16/11/10

      I’m sick of everyone saying this is not a big issue. I understand that there are many major issues facing the government and the Australian public, but how can discrimination and lack of equal rights for every individual in this country not be one of these pressing and important issues?

      This is massive, and it has a flow on effect to other discrimination problems that homosexual people in this country face. If we have different laws for different people we are saying that it is ok to treat these people different from those people…that these people are more deserving than those…that these people are not equal to those people. And these “values” will be passed from generation to generation.

      Gay people should have the same rights as everyone else. And I refuse to vote for a government that would deny any person there basic right to marriage! I think treating your people (ALL of your people) with the same tolerance and understanding should be the first thing we look for in a PM. That means if you’re white, black, homosexual, heterosexual, rich, poor, born here, or overseas, speak English, or don’t we should all be treated with the same respect and understanding, indiscriminately!

    • iansand says:

      03:51pm | 16/11/10

      Katie - I am all in favour of equal rights.  I don’t particularly see choice of label as being an important factor in the spectrum of those rights.

    • Sharon says:

      10:10am | 16/11/10

      What I find hilarious is that so many People refer to marriage between a man & woman as being part of a “sacred institution”, if this was considered by those who are married as being a “sacred institution” explain the high divorce rates ?

      To even start with the religious arguement is ridiculous !! Given the trouble the church is in regarding child rape I’d have to say that the Church has lost its position of determining whats moral & whats immoral.

      Marriage is about love, behind each proposal is LOVE. The love shared between two same sex People is no different to the love shared between a male & female.

    • Sandy says:

      11:39am | 16/11/10

      “What I find hilarious ...”  Yet half the marriages are surviving the onslought from secular society.

      “Marriage is about love”  And what is love?

    • Lisa H. says:

      01:43pm | 16/11/10

      In many ways this whole discussion about Gay Marriage is really forcing us to examine how we as a society view the whole conncept of marriage.

      In this country the dominant culture, like that of Britain, has spent a generation running down marriage and even laughing at women who would prefer to marry rather than co-habit.

      I was one of those ‘deluded’ women who preferred to marry - in a church thank you - and to me marriage means a whole lot of everything.

      My sexual life would be virtually meaningless if it was impossible to get married. In many ways, I still feel shredded by the expectations of our secular society regarding sexual experience outside marriage, and I have been married for about ten years now.

      Secular society does not recognise personal spiritual aspirations unless dressed up in legalese concepts like’ ‘individual freedom’. Real spirituality? That’s in the too hard basket. (I know many individuals experience the church in a similarly conflicted way)

      Because of my personal spiritual experiences regarding marriage, I would like for same-sex couples to be able to choose a similar path.
      We are all people, aren’t we.

      There are a lot of sexual hypocrites out there, and in my view marriage is something of a social antidote for that hypocrisy. The more marriages the better! smile

      Not sure if the Gillard government wants to go down as the mob that lit the industrial relations klass war, wasted billions, set pensioners’ houses on fire, killed a couple of teenagers AND put another nail in the coffin in marriage as we know it, though.

    • RGG says:

      10:18am | 16/11/10

      Australians are so scared of people or things that are different to them. Foreigners, asylum seekers, and homosexuals are three examples that come to mind.

      I find it amazing that 98% of the time the majority of Australians on these boards seem to take the view that religion is declining in relevancy and should butt-out of politics, but as soon as same sex marriage is mentioned it’s suddenly a case of “oh no, that’s offensive to [Christian] religion.”

      Reality check: Christianity isn’t the only religion in this country, and its system of marriage isn’t the only religious version of marriage either. Marriage has long been a contract with the state. I’m going to assume that all those opposed to same sex marriage here today are practicing Christians who go to church every Sunday and love their neighbour just like Jesus told them to. Otherwise, why do you care if your next door neighbours can or cannot get married? How does it affect your life? I mean, surely it must, otherwise you wouldn’t be so opposed to it right?

      You’re scared of it, and you don’t even know why.

    • Sandy says:

      11:31am | 16/11/10

      “Marriage has long been a contract with the state. ” Maybe for the last couple of centuries.  But for the millenia before it was a contract with the church.  But no lets cherry pick the basis of our society.

      “You’re scared of it, and you don’t even know why. ”  Yes they do.  they’re scared of everyone else telling them exactly what they should feel, believe, live and do.

      BTW religion on the rise.  Why? Simple really, demography. Secular society isn’t breeding. See Eric Kaufman’s presentation at this years Festival of Dangerous Ideas.

    • Tombowler says:

      10:22am | 16/11/10

      Penbo has hit the nail on the head.

      I couldn’t give two s#$%s whether gays get married or not quite frankly. If they wanna lose that ideological fevour and over-excited gay-pride thing they got by joining the world of spousal support payments and bloody divorce, good on em!

      However I find this sort of policy dictation by a tiny minority to be a nuisance. It’s not like Australia is a nation with 20% homosexuals or even 10% wherein this is a matter of urgent public policy. Rather it is a quaint platitude.

      It is not a matter of ‘individual rights’ howsoever you choose to cut it. Everyone has the right to get married- to someone of the opposite sex. Should you be unable to find someone of the opposite sex to marry it doesn’t follow that it is nessecary to abrogate this right to allow you to marry what you do find. (Not suggesting in anyway that gays are just failed straight people, rather that they are in fact given the right to marriage- simply because they find the exercising of that right abhorrent because of their sexuality,  doesn’t follow that they are being denied any rights.)

      It is, in my view, rather similar to me rejecting my right to vote because I find all the candidates to be tools. It doesn’t follow that I should be able to demand to have my own little election because I was born with an inextinguishable inability to suffer morons.

      Essentially what I am saying is this:
      a) Gay marriage is not a matter of civil rights, civil rights are about the rights of the individual and in this instance no such right is being withheld from the individual.

      b) As such it is not a matter of policy urgency- it will probably occur naturally sometime somewhere

      c) A lot of people resent the mainstream advocacy of what is essentially a very minor issue (except perhaps emotionally) relevant to a minority of people with few substantial implications for the rest of us.

      d) Perhaps the gay lobby would be better served putting it on the backburner a little rather than eliciting a negative view for presenting a case in such a manner (rather cynically dressing it up as ‘civil rights’ rather than a mere issue of legal semantics and pushing it to the fore at the expense of more important issues)

      Now kids- try not to use the words “ignorant”, “redneck”, “homophobic” or “conservative” when responding with the standard vitriol.. I am none of the above..

    • Richard says:

      11:48am | 16/11/10

      2 great posts in 2 days~ a new star is born!

    • StefanR says:

      12:20pm | 16/11/10

      Read PolarBear’s post above as it shows a real implication of treating gay and straight relationships differently. There are many other situations that you (as a presumably straight person) are unlikely to encounter or even think about and this doesn’t make you a bad person.

      What is offensive is suggesting that equal treatment of relationships doesn’t impact lives when people who are affected by the discrimination are telling you that it does. If, as you admit, it has little to no impact for people outside of same sex relationships then there is no reason it shouldn’t be allowed.

    • Bruno says:

      01:41pm | 16/11/10

      Very True

      However I believe the time is right for the people who wanted to push this legislation through.

      We have a weak prime minster who has stated she is an atheist and unless she accomplishes something major very soon will go down as one of the most unpopular politicians in Australia’s history

      Blue moons happen more often.
      It is the perfect time to get this law passed they won’t let it slip through their fingers.

      And any other law for that matter as long as there is enough voters riled up about it.  smile))

    • James1 says:

      08:38pm | 16/11/10

      You undermine your other arguments when you say that it is an issue “with few substantial implications for the rest of us”.  Why try to prevent it then?  What is the problem with allowing gay marriage, if it has so “few substantial implications”?

      Given that you don’t think it is an issue, I am struggling to understand why you would post something arguing against it.  Instead of the words you say don’t describe you, I will use this one: inconsistent.

    • Democrat says:

      10:23am | 16/11/10

      More than just a little one sided take on the issue.  The problem for The Abbott is just as great - if not greater. That survey, as you point out, affected only 3 labor seats - the other 7 are coalition held seats.  While the inner city seats mentioned will undoubtedly be more progressive on the matter, gay marriage will not be the only issue on which they vote and certainly won’t be an issue that propels them toward the more conservative coalition candidates (and if the Libs preference against the Greens in these seats they remain with Labor). 
      The Abbott’s problems lay with his conservative catholic self that will forbid him accepting gay marriage as a matter of principle ( oops principles aren’t his strong point so that may not count). He has said himself the Liberal party is now the party of catholics so he runs the risk of losing the catholic vote, dividing his own party and failing tocarry his party with him even if he was inclined to support gay marriage.
      Certainly Turnbull (who will be making his own leadership bid within 12 months)  has said he doesn’t support gay marriage even though he has one of the largest gay populations of any electorate in Australia.
      At the end of the day for any vote to succeed along these lines it will be a conscience vote.  Of the 4 possible parliamentary leaders of their respective parties over the next couple of years - Gillard, The Abbott, Hockey and Turnbull - the great probability will be that as leader will all vote against the concept but their parties will vote with their conscience.

    • StolenGeneration says:

      10:26am | 16/11/10

      I am acutely aware that most people do not believe in God, and/or dismiss His right to have any say in how to live our lives. That does not mean that He does not exist, nor does it mean that, if He has provided some moral guidance (which He has) we are free to ignore it.

      Marriage was, and still is, a Divine ordinance, between a man and a woman. That’s not religious bigotry - that’s a statement of fact.

    • Trjn says:

      01:13pm | 16/11/10

      No, it is religious bigotry. Why should people who don’t follow your religion be forced to live by the rules of your religion?

      Leviticus 18:22 is the famous verse condemning homosexuality. Leviticus 18:19-20 says “Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period. Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her”

      Should we make having an affair illegal? Or having sex whilst a woman is on her period?

      How about Leviticus 19:26 “Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. Do not practice divination or seek omens.” Should people not be allowed to eat a delicious piece of medium-rare steak?

      Leviticus 19:27 “Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.”

      Leviticus 19:28 “Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD”

      I could go on and on with all these fun little laws that God gave to Moses in Leviticus and that’s not even getting into the mixed cloth thing.

      If you want to claim that not all of this still applies, then why does that specific passage about homosexuality still apply? After all, Leviticus 19: 37 clearly states “Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the LORD.”

      If you don’t believe that men cannot lay with men, nor should they marry, or that woman cannot lay with women and marry, then why don’t you get equally riled up about restaurants serving rare steaks?

      God has no right to decree how my life, or the lives of anyone else who does not wish to follow him, shall be lead. If we’re wrong, then he can do his little judging thing and send me to hell with the rest of the people who appreciate a good cut of meat cooked properly.

      If you want to try and claim that this is about the sanctity of marriage, well I’m afraid you’re just going to explain how a rapist marrying his victim (and them not being allowed to divorce) does not destroy the sanctity of marriage (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) or how impromptu weddings in Vegas that last mere hours do not do the same.

    • Gwen Jr says:

      10:29am | 16/11/10

      Gay marriage, asylum issues, foreign ownership of Australia, health care are all very complex issues that the government needs to address and find a fair solution. No one should face discrimination or have to live with the consequences of incompetence. PM Gillard needs to act now, stop giving this country excuses.

    • John says:

      10:35am | 16/11/10

      The idea that legislation that directly impacts on a minority of the electorate is therefore not worth pursuing “right now” is morally repugnant.  If it is right to update the laws to reflect the change in modern Australian attitudes, then it is right to do it now.  Gays and lesbians should not be pushed to the back of the bus simply because of a perception that a government cannot advance more than one legislative policy at a time.

    • Peter says:

      10:42am | 16/11/10

      Gays should just get over themselves and stop trying to change laws in order to make themselves feel fit into mainstream society.It is not illegal to have a sexual relationship with your brother or sister but you can’t get married because the majority don’t see it as being normal.Is that also discrimination?

    • Anna C says:

      10:55am | 16/11/10

      While this issue is important to gay people I don’t think there is enough momentum in the general community for change just yet.  I don’t think this issue is on the radar of most people.  This will probably change over the next few years, but for the time being i think most people want the government to act on asylum seekers, higher cost of living pressures, banks etc.

    • Louise says:

      11:16am | 16/11/10

      Penberthy, you are brilliant.  This is simply the best analysis of the politics of this issue I have read.

    • David says:

      11:18am | 16/11/10

      You talk of people who are opposed to gay marriage as having a “prejudice”, that is holding an opinion not based on reason.

      I would contend, however, that a large majority of those who believe a marriage should be between a man and a woman have thought long and hard about the issue.

      It is very easy for anyone promoting the breaking of a long held societal norm to yell “prejudice” at those who prefer the status quo.  It is only a pity that we do not have something we call yell in return.

    • stephen says:

      11:24am | 16/11/10

      Legalizing gay marriage is like legalizing polio.
      (The sufferers need treatment for both.)
      And enough of this ‘lets explore our sexuality’ mind-set which is directed at youth. They got other things to learn first.

    • vix says:

      11:29am | 16/11/10

      People, please stop talking about your rights, as if Australia is a dreadful place to live in.  It is still the lucky country for so many reasons that you will recognise if you stop and think.  Other people literally risk life and limb to get here by any means possible (boatpeople) because it is so good.  I have gay friends who actually think gay marriage is not necessary.  I know manhy people in excellent long-term de-facto relationships.  This whole debate for gay marriage has gained momentum for no other reason than people thinking it is their “right”.  Why?  The government should start focussing on the more IMPORTANT issues of Education, Dental on Medicare and creating a self-sufficient Australia, for starters.  The only rights you (and I) have are clean water, food and air and shelter.  The rest is PRIVILEGE!

    • StefanR says:

      11:58am | 16/11/10

      Funny you bring up privilege, yours is certainly on display here.

      That other places are worse does not mean we shouldn’t try to make Australia better.

    • Alfred Deakin says:

      11:36am | 16/11/10

      Why can’t the Marriage Act be changed to allow plural marriage (polygamy)? This was allowed by some large religions in the past (Judaism, Islam, Mormons). if it is voluntary, why should it be illegal? It harms no-one surely.

    • JJ says:

      11:37am | 16/11/10

      Why do gay people want to get married anyway, really?

      I like most reasonable people are all in favour of no discrimination but believe marriage is between and man and women and should always be.

      Most people who participate in the polls, I believe would feel the same way, but don’t want to be seen as cold hearted.

    • Trevor says:

      01:30pm | 16/11/10

      @JJ, some of us want to be able to publicly declare our commitment to the person we plan to spend our life with, exactly the same that some heterosexual people want to do this.

      Our relationships occupy exactly the same range as heterosexual ones do.

    • Brooke McGlashan says:

      11:44pm | 17/11/10

      By very definition, if gay people are excluded from ‘marriage’, then they are discriminated against. You cannot claim that you do not discriminate against gay people, when you actively deny us all of the freedoms that you take for granted. Anyone who believes that ‘civil unions’ are the answer obviously thinks that a second class option should appease us second class citizens!

    • Sandy says:

      09:21am | 19/11/10

      “then they are discriminated against”  So what? The religions aren’t hiding it?  And they’re not going to change. Ever.  And you’re not a ‘citizen’ of their community. So what’s your point?

    • Cate P says:

      11:55am | 16/11/10

      You’ve got me stumped David Penberthy. On what issues does Tony Abbott make the Pope look progressive?  I can’t think of one, let alone a number.

    • Patrick Miller says:

      11:56am | 16/11/10

      David. What a stupid article. To say that there are better things for the government to be doing rather than legislating against a systemic discrimination is insipid. State your ideological position, which I sense is homophobic, rather than hiding behind such pragmatics. The debate on gay marriage is as absurd as a debate on whether apartheid is acceptable. Would you debate an Africaaner from 1985 on whether black people should be able to use the same drink tap as a white man? Disallowing gay marriage is on par with that level of discrimination. To the prejudiced people posting above - Without care, you’ll be the Africaaners of this generation. But it’s not too late. Reassess your position with compassion for fellow man and woman.

    • HappyCynic says:

      12:24pm | 16/11/10

      I don’t think his position is homophobic at all.  It’s just pragmatic.  Pragmatism doesn’t usually take into account the morality or humanity of the subject but rather tries to objectively decide (without emotion) whether it is profitable or not to support an ideal.

      Pragmatically speaking it is not politically profitable for a PM to support gay marriage at this point in time because the people who don’t support gay marriage predominantly live in poorer or outlying areas and have lower standards of education.  These people also happen to live in swing seats so the government of the day will do anything and everything possible to keep them happy, even if it means supporting systemic discrimination.

      I’m with you, I agree the arguments against gay marriage are all absurd and this discrimination should be removed but pragmatism wins over ideaology (no matter how just those ideals might be) everytime in the real world whether you like it or not.  Until it becomes more pragmatic for a PM to overturn gay marriage bans nothing will ever change on this front.

      It’s sad but c’est la vie.

    • Patrick Miller says:

      03:17pm | 16/11/10

      I agree, his position isn’t homophobic as presented in the above article. He is merely saying that the government should be looking at other issues, rather than running the risk of legislating for gay marriage. He also indicates that it would be politically unviable to so legislate. That is not a homophobic position. But it smells of homophobia. In my view, it is akin to saying to Martin Luther King, don’t bother pursuing equal rights for African Americans, because in white dominated America, such a course is politically unviable. Surely, a person suggesting such a thing is either racist or insipid. I respectfully disagree that pragmatism wins over ideology. Your premise is that legalisation of gay marriage is politically unviable, which is either (a) untrue, as polls indicate that the majority of Australians are for, or (b) an obstacle which a moral government should attempt to lead the electorate around, by promoting equality, and hopefully changing opinion. In any event, we live in a democracy, and if the majority of Australians reject the concept of homosexual marriage, then change is impossible. In that sense, you and David are correct. But the real question is whether the majority of Australians reject the concept of homosexual marriage. Not whether it is politically viable to put the question to the electorate. That is my criticism of David. His article is sophistry. He should state his ideological position, and then discuss pragmatics and strategy. Not the other way around.

    • grumpy old man says:

      11:57am | 16/11/10

      Help me out here people, I’m having a problem with definitions and what is actually being sought. “Gay “I understand, but define “marriage “. Are the advocates for gay marriage saying that they want the State to legislate to force churches of all religions and denominations to perform the marriage ceremony for same sex couples? or something else? If it is something else, then precisely what? and what rights are being afforded to hetrosexual couples that are being witheld from gay couples? The right to marry in a church?

    • Trevor says:

      01:32pm | 16/11/10

      Over half of marriages in Australia are not conducted in churches.  Or indeed in mosques, synagogues or temples.  They are civil marriages, conducted by civil celebrants, most often in a park or garden.

      And they’re still called marriages.

    • Sandy says:

      03:26pm | 16/11/10

      @ Trevor.  But the other half are religious. Don’t they count?

      I’m happy for the law to be changed.  Are you?  Oh and many civil celebrants include religious content.

      There aren’t enough churches, mosques, synagogues or temples to go around.  Seen the waiting lists to join the queue on a Saturday? And last time I checked, pastors amd priests don’t do outdoor ceremonies.

      Seems that we need need to some more separating here.  Think you’ll win?

    • Trevor says:

      03:53pm | 16/11/10

      @Sandy, of course they count, but the problem is that people keep arguing that marriage is a religious institution, when the law doesn’t say that and hasn’t said that for over 50 years.  If you think that marriage is a religious institution, then you should have been campaigning for decades for the Marriage Act to be changed accordingly.

    • Sandy says:

      05:49pm | 16/11/10

      @Trevor
      “law doesn’t say that” And the law doesn’t say it’s not. Right? So it covers both.  Right? And half of the group doesn’t want to share the podium with you. And they have been campaigning. Really think you’ll be able to change their minds against the will of their holy texts.

      Me? I don’t care.  But I don’t want Australia to tear itself apart over this issue.  Because it will.  And I’ve outlined my guess why above.  Because much of the Middle rightly doesn’t trust the government. For better or for worse: people are afraid of being made worse off by changing long standing traditions. It’s not just gay marriage.  It’s also there in the Republican debate and recognition of Indigenous Australians. We also celebrate some rogues as heros don’t we? What does that say about our trust?

      I’m just playing it how I’m seeing it.

    • SimonG says:

      12:12pm | 16/11/10

      The only issue I can see is that gay people want thier “union” to be called “marriage” - this is the sticking point; “marriage is defined as a religious ceremony to make a union between a man and a woman” - sorry but this is the definition. Gay people can have a civil union that means the same thing “in law” by all means; just lay off the “Basic Human Right” garbage in wanting to call it a marriage! You can already make lawful agreements that allow superannuation, property and any nmumber of other things happen the same way married couples can - just lay off trying to manipulate everyone into defiling the marriage act. Marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman. Leave this alone. Go get “joined” some other way!!!

    • DG says:

      12:37pm | 16/11/10

      Marriage should not be legal at all - if it’s a religious institution like baptism, it should be ignored at law and should have no special legal rights. it should not be recognised or endorsed by the State. This is not a theocracy.

      Person who want the rights of a legal ‘marriage’ should have to participate in a legal ceremony of union. Then, and only then, should the person be entitled to the legal benefits thereof. Persons who have a religious ‘wedding’ should be considered a ‘de-facto relationship’ unless they also participate in a separate legal union. One should be prohibited from merging the two - or at the very least it should be required that the form and words of a legal union be adopted and clearly stated at the religious ceremony (rather than allowing a religious ceremony to replace a legal process).

    • Adrian says:

      12:46pm | 16/11/10

      This is exactly how I feel about this issue. Except for the hint of negativity…
      I support homosexual rights and equality but I don’t think ownership of the word ‘marraige’ comes in to this category.

    • Trevor says:

      01:34pm | 16/11/10

      @SimonG, the massive problem with your argument is that marriage is NOT defined as a religious ceremony!! Civil marriages with no religious element at all are defined as marriages. In the Marriage Act.

    • Sandy says:

      03:29pm | 16/11/10

      @ Trevor.  So the State has stolen the Church’s brand. Sounds true to form.  The State in Oz wanders in and takes whatever it wants.  Won’t even give us a bill of rights or equity at law.  Ever thought that maybe this is exactly the problem and that gay ‘marriage’ is the match.

      Of course I’m open to the possibility that the religions won’t allow the term ‘marriage’ to be removed from the legislation for exactly the same reason.

    • Trevor says:

      03:57pm | 16/11/10

      @Sandy, how can you say it’s the Church’s brand when marriages have been conducted for thousands of years in countries that knew nothing of Christianity?  Do you think that Hindu marriages aren’t marriages, for example?

    • Sandy says:

      05:01pm | 16/11/10

      For Church read: all of the main religions. I’m pretty sure that none of these religions support homosexuality.  Am happy to be proven wrong.

    • Robert Moxey says:

      12:15pm | 16/11/10

      I thought that article was an interesting view and i found it entertaining.  I am 24 and dont support gay marriage.

    • James1 says:

      08:30pm | 16/11/10

      That’s great.  Can you explain why without referring to the Bible?

    • Joe says:

      12:26pm | 16/11/10

      I do not believe that we should change the definition of marriage to include same-sex couples. My reasons go to the nature of marriage as the societal institution that represents, symbolizes and protects the inherently reproductive human relationship. I believe that society needs such an institution.

      With marriages breaking down and government often left to clean up the mess we need to do all that we can to strengthen marriages.

    • Corban says:

      01:44pm | 16/11/10

      And exactly what will happen if a gay couple marry to denigrate marriage? Will straight people suddenly decide to become gay in an effort to become anti-establishment?

      Will students become gay and get married in some form or protest?

      Or is it that once gay people are allowed to marry the puzzle is comkplete and they will finally take over the world and destroy all the straight people?

      Marriage in the current legislation as nothing to do with religion, and this moron of a PM really needs to display some diplomacy and stop pandering to the critics.

      Christianity is not the only religion in this country, and our law is secular. If we are truly a multi-cultural society then we need to move forward, allow same-sex marriage and allow our citizens basic human rights.

      Same-sex marriage has not crippled the nations of Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden and Mexico. And all of these countries have a Christian majority.

      Australia, lets show the world the way forward.

    • Sandy says:

      03:17pm | 16/11/10

      Simple Corban.  The middle don’t trust their government in Australia to look after their best interests as much as in these other countries.  Rightly so. The middle in Australia is taxed to the bejeezus only for it to be dished out to all sorts of squeeky wheels. With such a bountifull country their lives are still pretty comfy here in Oz so they grin and bear it. The result of this strained state of affairs is that some issues will just ignite a fire. When will the gay community just see this for what it is and take an alternative route to full gay partner rights under the law? You won’t get what you want through a debate about fairness. Because there is plenty in Oz that is resoundingly unfair to the middle. Who said life was fair?

      Separate civil union from marriage and you’ll get what you need.  The term ‘marriage’ carries a lot of other values. Whether you agree with them or not.  The term ‘marriage’ is NOT the property of the State or the people.

      Oh and many of these other countries you mentioned have separated Church further from the State. 

      I note a few other posters have singled out Christianity here. Name which religions support gay marriage.

    • Corban says:

      08:09pm | 16/11/10

      Kind of fail to see what your point is Sandy? You said a lot of things but nothing coherent. Aside from wanting to perpetuate the legal discrimination of separate but equal.

      And the reason why Christianity is of particular focus is because of the governments alignment.

      Again missing what point you are making about the countries I mentioned? Sorry, but I would like to understand what you are trying to say so there can be some meaningful dialogue.

    • Sandy says:

      09:30am | 17/11/10

      Sorry Corban.  Kept it as brief as possible.

      You asked: “And exactly what will happen if a gay couple marry to denigrate marriage?”

      Probably absolutely nothing. So the next questions is: then why do Aussies still oppose it. 

      To answer this I look at the differences between e.g. Oz and Dutch laws and the differences between Oz and Dutch people.  3 things jump out at me.

      1) There’s the obvious answer that many Australian’s are religious and their religion opposed it. So they do what they’re taught.

      2) Greater separation of church and state in Europe. Seems counter intuitively, but because more Europeans are more religious the religions have more power and so individuals feel more secure and hence more comfortable with the state having a freer hand.

      3) Australia is more of a dog eat dog world than continental Europe. As Bowling for Columbine pointed out, many countries have way more guns per head than the US but a tiny fraction of the murders. It’s the peoples attitude toward each other.  Less communal. There’s a far greater lack of trust.  Don’t give an inch to anyone.  And that sort of attitude is indescriminate.

      I’ve lived in Europe and found people far more communal and trusting of each other. Here, we’re all running around working out how we can screw the system or each other over.  More like America. Fairness is subordinated to smarts and might.

      To get gay marriage legislated your’e going to have to ram it through, change Australians completely or go around people’s reticence.  You’re simply not going to be able to make them do what YOU want them to do with logic like rights and fairness. Because we don’t have the same rights and fairness here than in other countries.

      I mean how can you talk about rights when we don’t even have a bill of rights. And our equity at law is weaker than in the UK.

    • Sandy says:

      03:11pm | 21/11/10

      @ Corban.
      Do I have to spell it out for you. Competition baby. Combined with clear policy by religions.  That’s my guess anyway.

      See my latest post on Phelps’ Punch piece about the ‘vibe’.  You want to go deeper into the psychology of it?  Bring it on.  I note that Phelps doesn’t. She just mocks.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      12:33pm | 16/11/10

      Gillard won’t act on gay marriage because she, just like the Liberals,is beholden to the Religious Right. Upset them & you can guarantee the ALP will be defeted at the next Federal Election. How can anyone within the GLBTQ community even hope for action when the only openly homosexual (that is not to say there aren’t others there who haven’t the guts to admit it) in the Federal Ministry, SA’s Penny Wong won’t support to concept? Why? Because this platitude-uttering failure of a Minister says “It is not Party Policy” maybe not but what about a bit of Personal Integrity? She has said she is “proud tobe a lesbian” but hasn’t the guts to stand up for the community she claims she is such a proud member. The GLTBQ Community in SA will remember at the 2014 Federal Election when Wong comes up for re-election! She should remember that where the Senate is concerned electorates do not enter the picture so it won’t matter which electorate any member of the GLTBQ Community lives in when it comes to Senate Elections. Bye-Bye- Penny!

    • Nick says:

      01:18pm | 16/11/10

      “I want it all…I want it all ...and I want it NOW”.. some people are never happy.

    • Trevor says:

      01:36pm | 16/11/10

      “I’ve got it all… I’ve got it all… and YOU can’t ever have it.”

    • Nick says:

      03:08pm | 16/11/10

      Trevor if what you have got is what I think it is then you can have it!

    • Bored says:

      02:59pm | 16/11/10

      When society doesn’t value your relationship it is harder to value it yourself. Society labels same-sex couples as second-class citizens by denying them the opportunity to validate their relationships. This has consequences not just for the individual or couple but also for their entire extended family. Same–sex couples exist within a family unit. They are someone’s daughter, son, niece, nephew, grandchild, sibling, cousin, aunt, uncle, parent or grandparent. The toll taken on a family that experiences the discrimination and exclusion of same-sex individuals within their family is understated and often ignored. Homosexuality is no more a choice than heterosexuality. Denying same-sex couples the right to marry will not stop same-sex couples from having loving committed relationships. What it will do is perpetuate prejudice and intolerance to the detriment of the individual, the couple and society as a whole. Same-sex couples pay the same taxes, fight the same wars and abide by the same laws and responsibilities as other citizens, this is reason enough to grant the same rights.

    • Sheldon says:

      03:02pm | 16/11/10

      Just because I dont support gay marriage, doesn’t make me a biggot or homophobe. It just means I disagree with you.

    • Mary says:

      05:02pm | 16/11/10

      It does make you a bigot.

      If you expect the gay community to pay taxes, work & be productive members of society you should grant them the rights afforded to straight people.

      Common sense.

    • Ben in Canberra says:

      03:15pm | 16/11/10

      Simple answer: In the next federal election, include a number of referendum questions, such as this one, and then allow the new parliament to amend or debate new legislation based on those results. There are FAR more important issues affecting us at the moment, including housing affordability, increased utilities costs and the cavalier attitude of the GillRudd government to spend billions without batting an eyelid.

      Before you know it, we will all live in a nation where people can marry whoever and whatever they want, foreign investment in housing will see us all renting darkened homes because we can’t afford to heat them, and still a small voice in the fringes will cry out ‘what about me? I have a personal issue I’d like the government to change legislation to help me with’. There are more pressing matters to deal with.

    • Barry says:

      03:26pm | 16/11/10

      I think the aim of the gay lobby group are to undermine the basic family structure and take away the basic human right for children to have a mother and a father.  I am pretty sure in 10 years time churches will not be allowed to preach on the institute of marriage being between a man and a woman. I can see it that speaking out against the gay lifestyle will be a crime.

    • Patrick Miller says:

      03:43pm | 16/11/10

      One of the common arguments against gay marriage is that the word marriage is, by definition, a description of a union between a man and a woman. Indeed, section 5 of the Marriage Act 1961 defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others, voluntarily entered into for life. I can hear the idle mind wile ‘that’s the definition, it’s enacted law, sorry but it can’t be changed.’ Allow me to draw my bow and shoot this impudent argument in the head. The aforesaid meaning is a statutory meaning attributed for the purposes of interpreting the Marriage Act of 1961. It is a meaning written by the Australian federal parliament, under Robert Menzies, in the year 1961. The etymology of the word marriage is as follows: from Old French mariage, from marier (“to marry”), from Latin maritare (“to marry”, literally “give in marriage”), from maritus (“lover”, “nuptial”), from mas (“male”, “masculine”, “of the male sex”). So the main etymological root of the word marriage is the latin ‘maritus,’ which means lover. No where in the etymology of the word marriage is there any special meaning restraining the word to referring to a union between man and woman only. That is the federal Australian parliament of 1961’s imposition. That is the society of 1961’s imposition. And that is the opponent’s of gay marriage’s imposition, by continued support of such a narrow definition. This special meaning, which opponents of gay marriage enthusiastically deploy, is anachronistic and simply incorrect.

    • Trevor says:

      03:51pm | 16/11/10

      Nice try Patrick, but section 5 didn’t say that until 2004. Back in 1961, no definition was included.

      Acts do get amended over time. In fact, that’s what people are advocating now. But it will still be called “the Marriage Act 1961”.

    • Sandy says:

      04:33pm | 16/11/10

      Actually Patrick. Let’s go one step further. There is a lot I disagree with in our legal system’s handling of matters marriage.  Plenty of foolish individuals doing foolish things early in their personal development and paying far too high a price.  Plenty of people trashing marriages just so they can feel ‘alive’.  And plenty of others using marriage, absent of love, to maximise the benefit they get from the other party. 

      Let’s just cut love right out of marriage completely. Call it what it really is.  A contract between individuals.  We’re nearly there already. All those co-habitation and co-parenting agreements that get entered into after a breakup. Just extend this practice to the beginning. Make it like IR law which attempts to define the limits of what can and can’t be agreed to.  Everyone knows what they’re getting themselves into up front.  Minimising disappointment. Keep love and matters of the heart out of it.  Because we all know how fickle love is.  And look at the damage that does.  Let’s minimise the hurt by slapping individuals with the cold legal facts before they commit.  Not enough of that I say.  It’s good for them and good for the country. Remove love from the legals completely. There’s no love and love isn’t considered when it comes to winding up a marriage anymore so why is it still a pre-requisite at the beginning? It’s all a bit of a legal mess really.  And don’t think I’m joking.

    • Patrick Miller says:

      04:34pm | 16/11/10

      Trevor, I stand corrected. Those words were inserted by the Howard government in 2004. I also retract the word anachronistic (though the social policies of the Howard government were better placed in 1950 than 2004). But doesn’t this merely buttress my point? The special meaning is an artificial imposition by a conservative government, not a definition which is intrinsic to the word. Address my argument please.

    • Trevor says:

      05:48pm | 16/11/10

      @Patrick, I have absolutely no problem with the part of your argument to do with the etymology of the word ‘marriage’.

    • Catching up says:

      03:45pm | 16/11/10

      It might amaze may that marriage has existed long before the christian churches were established.  Yes marriage is mentioned in the new testament.  What I have been able to find, is any description of what made a marriage in the bible. The Catholic Chuch invented marriage as a sacrament in the 16 century.

    • Sandy says:

      04:01pm | 16/11/10

      A Bono moment then?  Religion stole ‘marriage’.  We’re stealing it back?

    • Stuart Skene says:

      03:55pm | 16/11/10

      I am so shocked at the downright bigotry of some people in the year 2010. These are similar comments to those that opposed blacks being free, women getting the vote and various other human rights atrocities that now days we oppose so harshly with a complete lack of understanding of how people back then could be so close minded. Why are people so happy to blindly oppress other human beings??

    • JJ says:

      04:06pm | 16/11/10

      There is quite a difference Stuart. The right for Gay/Lesbian people to get married and equality for black people are worlds apart.

    • Patrick Miller says:

      04:42pm | 16/11/10

      I agree Stuart. The level of discrimination is analogous, in that it creates two tiers in the legal system. Sure, we’re not 1950’s America, or 1980’s South Africa, but why should any level of discrimination be acceptable to us, JJ? At what threshhold does your morality kick in, out of interest?

    • Sandy says:

      06:06pm | 16/11/10

      Why so shocked Stuart? The conservative religious have been out breeding us for generations. Meaning a general shifting to the right.

    • Stuart Skene says:

      08:18am | 17/11/10

      It is the same argument the whites, men, catholics, etc used JJ. The rights of blacks are worlds apart from the rights of whites. The rights of women are worlds apart from the rights of men. You are just a new generation with a new inferior people to oppress with blinded views of right and wrong and equality. Your argument is that gays and lesbians don’t deserve the right cause they’re not like you. Same story,different day.

    • Sandy says:

      10:11am | 17/11/10

      Insulting them doesn’t help Stuart.  It just means they trust their fears more. You validate their fears. Do you want equal rights or do you want to defeat them and put them in their place.

      Each one of those fights for equality you mentioned was a fight.  What makes you think it will be easier this time around.  Fear is still fear.  It hasn’t changed.  If anything, many sectors of our society like politics, media and advertising are pocking our fears more now than in a long time.

    • Stuart says:

      12:10pm | 17/11/10

      I already have better rights, I’m straight. In the 60’s I would have had better rights as I’m a man and in the 40’s I would have had better rights as I’m white. I can also see that all these things have one thing in common and that is one people being treated differently because they are different. Stating that someone has a blind opinion cause they refuse to acknowledge or understand this is not an insult.

      I do have to say though that while the government continues to state that gay people do not have the rights of straight people they are just re-enforcing the commonly held belief that gay people are not equal because they are different. If the government acted then they would be stating the truth, that all people deserve equal rights.

    • Sandy says:

      02:47pm | 17/11/10

      And you don’t have any blind opinions?  Really?  You’re claiming some very high moral ground there.

      “one people being treated differently because they are different”  Who said life was fair?  What about all those kids born into wealth who don’t have to work a day in their life? Disabled people like me don’t see the world like most normal people like you. Fairness and equality is a work in progress. But for some: life will never be fair.

      Sounds to me like you’re here on this forum to take the path of least resistance.  Telling religion’s followers to rise up against their faith’s doctrines.  And telling the government to teach religions a lesson. Rather than taking the fight directly to religious leaders yourself.

    • Steve says:

      05:06pm | 16/11/10

      Simple.

      If you expect the gay community to pay taxes, be productive members of society then the same rights (including marriage) afforded to straight couples should be made availiable to the gay community.

    • Peta says:

      05:54pm | 16/11/10

      If marriage was created by the church so that a man and woman could have children naturally as back in the day ivf etc did not come into it, why on earth would people who are against the whole concept of being with the opposite sex want to use a word that belongs to a concept that morally governed men and women sleeping together???? I don’t understand.  Legal recognition of same sex unions should be given and give them the same legal rights as same sex married couples.  Marry, marriage and married are all buzz words that belong to the church.  If you dislike the church that doesn’t condone same sex unions why fight for something that was the churches creation.  Plenty of non believing same sex couples have civil ceremonies where they are “joined together in a civil union” you don’t see them bitching.  Marriage is a term not a human right.  I don’t see what the issue is personally.  I’m not against same sex relationships or unions.  I just don’t see why they would want to take part in something that was intended for a man and a woman to do?????

    • jane wallace says:

      07:47pm | 16/11/10

      what happens when a Liberal male marries a National male?
      They form a coalition

    • Muzz says:

      07:26am | 17/11/10

      Now that is very clever and it correctly sets the tone for this ridiculous proposition of same sex marriage. Its just an impossibility - it’s a question of complementary equipment being required. Better that we concentrate on the other prevalent nonsense of our times where the mushy brained think that CO2 is a pollutant. Bah - Humbug.

    • Debbie says:

      07:55pm | 16/11/10

      I wondering if the million or so Australians who are unemployed would think that making gay marriage legal is really one of the top priorities for the Govt at this point in time. I’m wondering why gay people would think it a priority even.

    • Lulu says:

      09:19pm | 16/11/10

      You can’t treat them like a couple (ie new centrelink laws) and then not treat them like a couple at the same time (no marriage). I think that same sex couples should be allowed to get married.

      I also think that all atheists should be able to have a civil union that is exactly the same as marriage, but is not church related.

      Then I think that a large percentage of Australian’s should get divorced and get a civil union in the one day raspberry

    • gay hater says:

      09:35pm | 16/11/10

      they do have the same rights.

    • Unstated says:

      09:52pm | 16/11/10

      I would consider myself to be very liberal in my views and very accepting to all life styles - de facto, non-married, gay - whatever.  I am also agnostic so have no religious views.  However, I am anti-gay marriage.  Sorry - but am of the view that marriage is between a man and a woman - end of story.  if that makes ev eryone stand up and scream so be it.  I would also love to see where they polled to get their figures because I can find no-one (and yes, this includes Facebook) who agrees with them.

    • JB says:

      10:27pm | 16/11/10

      And what has happened to the countries that have legalised gay marriage? Did they get wiped out by an apocalypse? Nope, the list includes some of the richest and most progressive countries in the world.

    • Sandy says:

      07:35am | 19/11/10

      Therein lies the issue perhaps.  Those countries have progressed further in separating religion and state?  (Why? Well that’s a different question. But don’t ignore tthe possibility that when countries are more religious, the followers may feel more secure and hence more tolerant of a greater separation.)

      As for Mexico being more progressive? I wouldn’t use Mexico as an example because you’ll find its record on drugs, gangs, murder,crime and corruption thrown back in your face.  Same for South Africa. Do we really want to model ourselves on a nation that lead the world in guns and razor wire?

    • Darryl Price says:

      11:43pm | 16/11/10

      Marriage is our word…get your own…thats it.

    • The Decoy says:

      09:02am | 17/11/10

      Havent read many of the comments, but all I can think of is that its mainly younger people who have not grown up with the stigma that homosexuality is wrong and evil and an affront to the Big Banana in the sky. Im thinking that this issue will not be resolved today, but in a few years down the track when non-Baby Boomers are running the country. I guess that doesnt help the people who want to get married now… but change takes time but it does happen. It makes me wonder what the big fuss is about really anyway… can they not be classified as de-facto? Does a civil union not afford them the same rights as marriage? Bide your time people, keep fighting because one day you will get what you want…

      For all the religious nuts out there who are all “God is Great”... have a specific look at the order of the Ten Commandments… it pretty much reads “Honour God”, “Do not try and disprove God”, “There is only one God”, “Do not make fun of God”, ‘Take Saturdays off”, “Do as your parents say”, “DONT KILL ANYONE!!!!”, “Do not cheat”, “Do not steal”,“Dont lust after your neighbours wife”. Im a born and raised non-practicing Catholic, and seriously find it amusing that the first four tennets of our faith are about blind faith, and for good measure… dont kill anyone…

    • All4GayMarriage says:

      09:48am | 17/11/10

      I think that Australians have never had it so good.  Our job losses were significantly less than the UK and US, our house prices have not taken a nose dive and rents are affordable - and yet whingeing bloggers such as yourself continue to try to incite pessimism and fear. 

      If Howard found the time to change the wording of the Act, then Gillard can find the time to change it back.  And what better time is there than now?

    • Sandy says:

      10:16am | 17/11/10

      You’re enjoying our debt explosion then.

    • jock says:

      11:08am | 17/11/10

      Gillard is besieged from every direction by all kinds of mutants because, as an unelected government, labor has no mandate for anything & the mutants are all pushing their own agenda.

    • Stuart says:

      12:20pm | 17/11/10

      Australian Census statistics for 2001 have 47.3% of people stating they are specifically catholic or Christian. How can the religious opinion of less than half of the country be held with such high esteem that we can deny people basic human rights and freedoms?

    • Sandy says:

      03:29pm | 17/11/10

      “held with such high esteem”  It’s not.  It’s just that many of the others want to know: what’s in it for them. What’s the catch.  If someone is pushing so hard for something: there’s gotta be a catch. To many: altruism is a relic of the past.  We’re all about competition, consumerism and capitalism now.  Dog eat dog.  You’ll have to go around them or make a trade with them.

    • Ur$ula says:

      02:48pm | 20/11/10

      The Vatican has so much power its absurd.  These people who still believe homosexuality is an illness which needs treatment.  There are homosexuals everywhere.  Please make it clear to these less fortunate individuals that homosexuality does not mean all gay men are child molesters.  The Pope apologized to the world for the molestation of hundreds of alter boys under the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.  The world is moving towards harmony and equality.  What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Frankly marriage, is mostly a massive grab for cash i.e lavish dress makers, perfect photography, finest flowers etc statistics show a large 70% first marriages fail.  For example I know 8 couples who have remarried for round two.  Its a commitment for life to a crumbling institution, which needs to be abolished.  Failed marriages have a revolving door to the courts for Domestic Violence and Family Law shared parenting [bargaining] is a classic example of a large population of dysfunctional adult children.  Stick to your Adam & Eve anecdote,  the talking snake is very real.

    • Sandy says:

      03:19pm | 21/11/10

      “The world is moving towards harmony and equality.”  Really?  Says who? The world may be trying to.  But maybe we just had a bit of a break after a couple of almighty world wide dust ups at the start of the 20 century.  According to the demographers we’re becoming more conservative.  They’re out breeding the others. And when large blocks of idealists can’t resolve their differences and the meglomanics get control it only ends one way   .... war.  Given that our rate of consumption can’t last, consumerism won’t be around to stop it. Get used to it.

 

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