Somewhere in a dimly lit, smoke-filled room out the back of St Andrew’s Cathedral, Anglican Bishops are holding a secret conference.  They are pouring over membership lists and crunching the numbers as they prepare to roll local P&C presidents as part of a diabolical plan to take over the world – starting with the NSW education system.

The NSW Greens - demeaning mainstream Australia

Not since Niccolò Machiavelli walked the earth has there been such a gathering of calculating and ruthless political minds.

Suddenly there is a knock at the door.  A heavy-set minder crosses the room and glares through a small peep hole before opening the door to let the newcomers in.  Through the thick haze of cigar smoke emerge representatives of the Islamic Council and the Jewish Board of Deputies.  They take their seats at the table as the unlikely cartel plans to divide the spoils of war…

This is of course an absurd, paranoid image. Fairies at the bottom of the garden stuff really.

But it’s the type of scenario put forward in parliament recently by NSW Greens MLC John Kaye in a blistering attack on religion that spared none.

In just five short minutes, Kaye accused Christians, Jews and Muslims of conspiracy; labelled the Catholic Bishop of Wollongong a liar; and suggested the Anglican Church had been taking lessons from the NSW Labor Right and was planning to branch stack local P&C meetings.

Kaye was responding to recent media reports that the Anglican Archdiocese of Sydney was encouraging its members to attend their local P&Cs as local committees discuss the NSW Government’s proposed changes to Special Religious Education (SRE) in state schools.

Heaven forbid that in a predominantly Christian country (64% to be exact) Christians, or people of any faith for that matter, would participate in local discussions as active members of their communities.

At least Dr Kaye had the decency to make his accusations against the Church in the mainstream press.  His personal attack on Bishop Peter Ingham’s integrity however, was said in the Legislative Council under parliamentary privilege. 

He accused the Bishop of lying about the legality of the Keneally Government’s trial ethics programme.  It is one thing to pull the Bishop up on a factual inaccuracy; it is another thing entirely to ascribe to him sinister motives and to accuse him of lying.

Kaye himself is guilty of stretching the truth when it comes to religious education in schools.  In a 2007 press release yet again targeting religious education, he made the exact same mistake as Bishop Peter and confused the Education Act with government regulation, suggesting that NSW legislation forbids children who opt out of religious education from undertaking other educational activities.  As Dr Kaye well knows, this is wrong.

The most astonishing thing about Kaye’s rant is that he is a member of a political party that is trying to position itself as the third force of Australian politics.

However no Australian political party can try to pass itself off as being mainstream as long as it ignores the fact that the overwhelming majority of Australian’s profess to hold religious beliefs.

Trying to shut people out of the debate because they hold to a particular religious world view is neither helpful nor practical.  Kaye’s outburst raises serious questions about the Greens’ commitment to religious freedom.  Unfortunately it is a trend being repeated continuously by the Greens across Australia.

For example in Victoria, the Greens were behind a push which began in 2008 to have the Government remove the ability of Christian and other faith-based organisations to hire people who share their faith and values.

Had it been successful, such a move would clearly have been a backward step, undermining religious freedom in this country. It is not a policy worthy of a credible political party.

If the Greens hope to be taken seriously by the Christian constituency in the lead up to the Federal, Victorian and NSW elections, all three due within the next ten months, they will need to do a lot of work to convince people they are not “anti-faith”.

Putting an end to vitriolic and personal attacks on church leaders under parliamentary privilege would be a good start.

137 comments

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    • Pat says:

      07:19am | 19/06/10

      The greens refusal to take their directions from the Australian Christian Lobby unlike the 2 major parties is precisely why I will be voting for them at the election.

    • Lara says:

      12:55pm | 19/06/10

      Me too.

    • JJ says:

      06:24pm | 19/06/10

      Do you seriously think Labor/Liberal are completely controlled by the Christian Lobby? And if so, do you seriously think the Christian Lobby could not offer a reasonable, constructive idea?
      I don’t support the Greens, but I do acknowledge they have a good idea every now and then, enough good ideas to run the country though, not in my opinion.

    • Gerard says:

      08:06pm | 19/06/10

      Presumably you’re referring to the ACL’s support for internet censorship. In fact, that policy is RUDD’S, and no one else’s. The ACL (and Conroy for that matter) are there to take the blame so that Rudd can distance himself from political ramifications. Seriously, do people actually believe that Rudd would take advice from ANYONE?

    • Luke says:

      02:43pm | 20/06/10

      Lol…
      Don’t you think there are other more important issues to base your vote on?

    • real-liberal says:

      03:39pm | 21/06/10

      Me too (and no, for me there are no issues more important than free thinking in the friggin’ 21st century!)

    • Bishop Rick says:

      12:49pm | 22/06/10

      And just who wrote this ‘article’?
       
      “David Hutt is the NSW Director for the Australian Christian Lobby”, which makes this a partisan piece of spin, and misrepresentation.

      One has only to go to the Anglican’s and the ACL web pages to see their gloating over how to evangelise to school students in schools, how to insinuate themselves into school camps to proselytise their way into the heads of young and vulnerable students to know that this has nothing to do with ‘freedom of religion’ at all, but everything to do with recruiting bums on seats in the declining pew numbers of the Anglican, Catholic and other churches.

      We live in what should be a secular society. That means no religion should have free access to students in public schools.

      That does not mean there cannot be discussions about ‘religion’.

    • Luke says:

      02:04pm | 23/06/10

      So mining tax doesnt mean anything?
      What about ETS?
      Mental health? Health in general?
      The general media flavour of the Labor party?
      Paid parental leave? IR??
      State Government power?
      Don’t you think these things are different party to party at all?
      Don’t you think religion is perhaps something that can be ignored given these other things affect things like MY JOB??

    • waynevan says:

      07:36am | 19/06/10

      Only problem is where do you get the idea that we are a “christian country”? Wasn’t the whole aim of the Sydney Diocese’s Connect 09 program to get 10% of Sydney in to Bible teaching churches?

    • Philip Scott says:

      02:47pm | 23/06/10

      Have a look at Australia’s constitution and the people who founded the country.
      No, we are not a Christian country as we once were but the influences are still there. The right to a fair trial,liberty,tolerance and so on. They did not “evolve” out of a void.

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:28pm | 23/06/10

      @ Philip Scott

      “The right to a fair trial,liberty,tolerance and so on. They did not “evolve” out of a void.”
      Of course they didn’t.  But how are these values Christian concepts?  The first has nothing to do with Christianity, the next two are peripherally related at best.  These concepts are more closely related to the great enlightenment thinkers - who were (mostly, though not all) famous for their rejection of Christianity for various forms of deism and atheism.

    • L. says:

      08:18am | 19/06/10

      Really David..?? Where was your outrage when a ‘christian’ senator (Sen. Conroy) used parliamentary privilege to slander his anti-internet filter crictics as paedophiles or supportive of peadophiles?

      Storm, meet tea cup.

    • Teddie says:

      12:32pm | 19/06/10

      the pot and kettle will be calling, too

    • biff says:

      08:34am | 19/06/10

      David, ‘The Greens’ is a religion. Why can’t it’s members be invited to the next interfaith meeting where you all stand around smiling at your broadmindedness? You use those meetings to sell us other strange religions so why not ‘The Greens’.

    • JJ says:

      06:28pm | 19/06/10

      The problem is Biff, the Greens will always struggle to get a good hearing whilst they remain on the extremes and attack the most fundamental and dearly held beliefs of others.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:11pm | 21/06/10

      @ JJ

      “whilst they remain on the extremes and attack the most fundamental and dearly held beliefs of others”
      No idea is above criticism, JJ.  if a dearly held belief does not hold up to scrutiny, people should stop holding it. 
      The Greens are not stopping people from holding their religious beliefs.

    • Phil Osopher says:

      08:35am | 19/06/10

      Christians, Muslims, Jews - their belief systems are all at the bottom of the garden with the fairies - I teach my kids ethics and philosophical thinking and they are good without any god.

    • John Poul says:

      01:13pm | 19/06/10

      God is Spirituality.
      Religion is Big Business that never pay tax but make most of the money in whole world.
      Those who control religion ,control people their minds and wallets.
      I was brought up as Catholic but for last 30 years I consider myself as person with faith in God as a creator,loving force and a policeman who can be good or bad cop sometimes.
      Priests,Popes,Ayatollahs,Rabi’s,Muftis,and any other human are just the biggest Pimps who collect the money in the name of love.
      Religion is the biggest curse on humanity,it kills more people then any war for land or any plague.
      Religion sell air , and desperate people who need help,hope or food will pay anything to breath the air.
      If I must vote I vote for Green Party than any other Party.
      At least the trees make free air that we all need to live on.

    • paul says:

      04:53pm | 19/06/10

      Phil, What is the basis for the ethics you teach? Where does loving the neighbour and other ethical notions originate?

    • Craigles says:

      03:31pm | 20/06/10

      paul, ethics such as altruistic actions are the human norm, and such altruism doesn’t have to involve declaring a mostly false “love” for ones neighbour.  The Golden Rule is universal and independent of belief or faith.

      A variation is “don’t do to others what you wouldn’t want done to you”.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:04pm | 21/06/10

      @ Paul

      “Where does loving the neighbour and other ethical notions originate?”
      Do you think the pre-Bible world was an ethical black hole?  Really?

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      01:16pm | 22/06/10

      Hey Paul, we are a social animal, there is an evolutionary imperative within our species for co-operation

    • simon says:

      01:34pm | 22/06/10

      While different worldviews have ethics that overlap with each other, there is no ethical system that is common to everyone. Loving your neighbour as yourself, while common to many, is clearly not universal. But on what basis do we say it’s wrong if you don’t love your neighbour as yourself? Ethics and philosophy are not neutral. So I think Paul’s question has not been properly understood or answered.

    • GreenFrog says:

      09:00am | 19/06/10

      I agree with The Greens and it has certainly cemented my vote with them. The churches need to find another way to indoctrinate young Australians.

    • JJ says:

      06:31pm | 19/06/10

      Isn’t raising kids telling them there is no God, indoctrinating them? Exposing kids to God’s word and allowing them to balance that with everything else the world throws at them is surely balanced.

    • Zaf says:

      01:43pm | 20/06/10

      Telling children about God/no God is the job of parents and possibly Church Sunday School.  The State and its institutions should not be involved, one way or the other.

    • Chris L says:

      04:03pm | 20/06/10

      JJ, people are born not having a belief system. They don’t need to be told whether or not there is a god unless someone (usually the parents) tries to convert them.

    • LC says:

      05:29pm | 14/07/10

      JJ, this is a SECULAR country (despite what you church or your religious mates tell you, it’s in our constitution, check s.116) and as such, religion cannot be taught in publicly funded schools. However, if it’s taught in privately funded schools or through the child’s parents then it’s fine.

    • Ian says:

      09:28am | 19/06/10

      The Greens convince Christians that they aren’t anti-faith? Even the Russian judge couldn’t help but give a perfect score to that political backflip.

      But even if they could convince of that - I don’t think they’d want to. It doesn’t fit with their anti-faith stance. They’d just be lying anyway. And we know what John Kaye at least thinks of liars.

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:33pm | 21/06/10

      “anti-faith stance”?
      Ian, you should read the link David Hutt provided.  Specifically the Greens’ movement for inclusion of an amendment to the Community Relations Bill.  Have a look.

      I’m sure Dr Kaye would accept your pending apology.

    • Bill says:

      09:28am | 19/06/10

      It’s time we woke up to the real agenda of the Greens. These guys are not the Nick Clegg of Australian politics.

    • John A Neve says:

      11:05am | 19/06/10

      Bill.
      Perhaps you could tell us all what their “real agenda” is?
      I am sure we all would love to know.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:15pm | 19/06/10

      Most of us are well aware of the true nature and policies of this irrational idealistic protest party.  Unfortunately it seems to be Greens voters who are completely unaware of their policies and seem to just vote for them because they’re “green”.

      Their couple policies that sound nice would come close to bankrupting us if a few of them were implemented, and others are just plain crazy.

    • Madeleine says:

      01:15pm | 19/06/10

      Exactly. They’re not sellouts like he is.

    • stabfish says:

      04:06pm | 19/06/10

      Can I ask what that might be?

    • Heath Karl says:

      04:20pm | 19/06/10

      Thankfully.

    • Adam MacLeod says:

      01:55pm | 21/06/10

      @Ben81,  The greens policy on climate change (which is a small carbon tax) is the same policy that was recommended by Ross Gaurnaut to the government.  Gaurnaut is a distinguished professor of economics, and was the economic advisor to Bob Hawke.

      Crazy? No. 

      Bankrupt? No. 

      Develop new technology while helping the environment? Yes.

    • Peter Oataway, Hay, NSW says:

      10:00am | 19/06/10

      I’m a christian and I can live with a politician giving religion in general a spray, and your post makes it seem like Kaye hit the lot without bias. But what I can’t stand is a religous leader telling me who to vote for. Think about it.

    • Maree says:

      10:12am | 19/06/10

      Good on you David.  About time Christians weren’t bullied because of their Christian World View in such a Free country as this.

    • James1 says:

      12:22pm | 21/06/10

      As long as you don’t interfere with my right to have a non-Christian world view, and to allow my daughter to form her own opinions free of the threats inherent in most major religions, I agree entirely.

    • Proud infidel says:

      10:17am | 19/06/10

      Maybe the Greens have discovered that over 20% of the Australian population is atheistic or agnostic. This would make them one of the largest groups in the country. Their views are not widely being represented by any of the political parties that have a high number of the religious or apologists for the religious in them.

      However the Greens will need to sell me that they are not cultural relativists or supporters, like some elements of liberals, the left, current political parties and religious groups. They should be willing take on religions behaving badly and hold them to accountant against universal human rights. That means no respect for Sharia Law or any religious law that does not measure up to the universal standards of human rights.

      My feeling is that, this is too much of a difficult issue for them to deal with. So the religious may have nothing fear from the Greens!

    • Real says:

      03:41pm | 20/06/10

      “Non-Religion” and “Unstated” in the last census (2006) were about 19% and 11% respectively, totalling 30%.  Bet those figures are significantly higher in 2011

    • MatLon says:

      11:39am | 19/06/10

      Oh dear, poor little ACL.

      More power to the Greens. Anyone which holds your organization’s insidious agendas to account gets my full support.

      And also, I think the majority of ‘every-day’ moderate Christians in this country find your organisation and Jim Wallace to be nothing but religious extremists and nut cases.

      The ACL is just as dangerous as any other extremist religious group.

      Sorry, things must be pretty bad within the ACL now that your grand plans for internet censorship have been packed away with the moth balls and your lame duck PM Rudd.

    • david says:

      11:56am | 19/06/10

      Why is it that people are so afraid of Christians, is it because we have values that are at odds with the world we live in.Voting for the Greeens is a .total waste of time they have no values that would in any way improve the way we live.
      They have the audacity to try and convert us to there party yet they do not recognise our right to living our faith.

    • Daniel W says:

      02:15pm | 20/06/10

      No-one’s afraid of Christians. It’s extreme fundamentalist groups like the ACL who seem intent on pushing their ‘morale values’ on the rest of society that concerns us.

      Nothing wrong with a bit of religion. The only issue is when you start trying to force it on others or insulting/degrading/belittling others who don’t share that religion. Which has long appeared to be Wallace’s/ACL’s favorite past time.

    • Julatron says:

      04:23pm | 24/06/10

      “they have no values that would in any way improve the way we live”

      Really? You dont eat food, drink clean water or like breathable air in your town! Greens might be painted as kooky by the powers at threat. Green economic policy is more akin with those of northern europe, and the gap between rich and poor is lower for starters.

      Greens arent afraid of christians until the ACL start to blur the separation between chuch and state… when the church ruled the world it was known as ‘the dark ages’

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:56am | 19/06/10

      At least the Greens aren’t pushing for Internet censorship unlike the ACL. Why the taxpayer should subsidize the tax free status of these Christian Lobbyists is beyond me.

    • Tim says:

      12:00pm | 19/06/10

      I always question that 64% Christians figure.  My bet is most people tick that box out of pshycological Christian guilt or because they were told as kids they were Christian.  I think a more accurate figure would be that 70% of those who identify as “Christians” have never or very rarely ever practise it.

    • Cye says:

      06:23pm | 20/06/10

      I would agree.  So many people are just nominally Christian rather than devout, church-going Christians.

    • Glen says:

      12:03pm | 19/06/10

      We are a christian based society and whilst I am not in any way religeous I do appreciate that if we were not a christian based society it is likely that we would be a third world country having been successfully invaded in the second world war and over run by uneducated mobs, which is the way we are heading now with the unneeded huge immigration levels not based on skills and Australia’s needs but is based on family reunion and creating ethnic/religeous enclaves.

    • Tedd says:

      03:36pm | 20/06/10

      it might be more appropriate to say we used to be a christian-based society.  we are now more humanistic -  and secular in terms of allowing all views equally.

    • David says:

      12:04pm | 19/06/10

      David.
      You state “For example in Victoria, the Greens were behind a push which began in 2008 to have the Government remove the ability of Christian and other faith-based organisations to hire people who share their faith and values.”
      If the job does not require the following of religion, (eg pastor, minister, rabbi, priest, coven leader, etc), how is this not religious discrimination?

    • randomizer says:

      02:24pm | 20/06/10

      In some cases the job does require it. I know a school which has very strict criteria (too strict IMO, such that they have trouble finding staff) for job candidates and if you don’t fit in the mould you won’t get the job.

    • Frederick says:

      12:11pm | 19/06/10

      I am a Christian and I WILL be voting for the greens because they do not listen to the ACL, which David is a spokesperson for.

      This whole article is a beat up and since when are politicians supposed to listen to a particular group who pretends to be christian.  It would cause unfairness to every other group of australians which would only drag us back to the dark ages. 

      As a Christian we are taught to treat people fairly and the only way to do that is to not use their beliefs as any sort of measuring cup as happens when politicians pander to groups after the old 2 class system

    • christine says:

      12:11pm | 19/06/10

      The green are and always have been an anti Christ organization God help us all if they ever become a serious contender in Australian politics instead of the joke that they are today .

    • Ben says:

      12:18pm | 19/06/10

      The Greens are one of the only political parties who are willing to stand up for freedom of speech, minimising unnecessary government intrusion in daily lives, and
      not pandering to petty wowserism, among other beliefs absent from the major parties.

      The major parties have shown such a poor effort in the above that they will not receive my vote. Sure, certainly no party is perfect and the Greens have some questionable policies, but I cannot in good conscience vote for the two main parties when they show such contempt for the electorate, and will take any opportunity to push unwanted repressive legislation onto the population. Internet censorship being the main one, but there’s plenty of others they have and would easily support.

    • Chris L says:

      04:10pm | 20/06/10

      Ben, might I put forward the Liberal Democratic Party? No, I’m not a member, but I’m giving them serious thought due to their minimal governance approach including opposition to censoring the internet.

    • Your name:Stu says:

      06:13pm | 20/06/10

      If internet censorship is the biggest issue people have got with the governments in Australia ( all sides ) than is clear that Australia is a great place to be. Go see how the other half of the world lives.  We shouldn’t be so naive to think that the internet isn’t already in some way censored, by advertisers and corporate industry.  Besides whats wrong with getting rid of some “sickies” porn habits,  and preventing a few kiddies from developing the same habbits.

      The Greens questionable policies would have Australia broke in no time, international outcasts, and lawless society where if it feels good than do it.
      The Very fact that the greens oppose the internet filter makes me think its a good thing.

    • Mark (not Day) says:

      12:41pm | 19/06/10

      I agree with Pat (comment 1). I will vote for any party that believes in a separation of Church and State. I don’t for one second believe that the Greens are anti-religion, I think that they are pro common sense, and I suspect they also can tell the difference between pouring and poring.

    • Brian says:

      12:46pm | 19/06/10

      The whole premise of this article is nonsense and betrays an antidemocratic tendency among the religious powerbrokers.

      Just because the Greens have criticised the behaviour of the Christian lobby does not put their commitment to religious freedom in question.  Only a group trying to protect a privileged place in society would see robust political debate as an attack on their freedom. 

      Democracy demands the freedom to criticise others’ behaviour and beliefs – especially those of the politically powerful.

    • steve says:

      12:48pm | 19/06/10

      You have only to look at the air head rubbish policies on their web site to realise they do not deserve your vote. They can say anything they like knowing they will never have to deliver because they will never get into government

    • Brian says:

      12:59pm | 19/06/10

      I am a committed Christian (an a member of a mainstream denomination) which is precisely why I support the Greens for their stance on justice, equity, freedom and ‘green’ environmental policy. The right wing does not have a monopoly on faith.

    • Vivian says:

      01:00pm | 19/06/10

      It’s a good indication of the depth and intelligence of the ACL when they waffle on about “pouring” over maps.  Holy water, was it?

      The ACL are one of the few organisations backing the imposition of secret censorship of the Internet, which provides an interesting assessment of their substance and intelligence.

    • John says:

      01:09pm | 19/06/10

      Typical article you would expect from the Australian Christian Lobby, Hows running Australian politics going for you ? , Are you a bit cranky or maybe worried that NSW isn’t following your exact orders ?
      Making anyone who thinks thinks the ACL has to much power in Australian politics, akin to conspiracy theorists is the wrong path to go down.

      Oh and i dare say that 64% of Australians who profess to be christian, are not particularly christian, they believe in a god yeah, but i believe only around 9% of them actually care enough to go to church regularly.

      The response by the ACL to the ethics trial was started making question why there is scripture being taught in public schools. The ACL really just shot it’s self in the foot with the aggressive response it launched.

      Oh and im a Christian, Im just sick of the ACL making people who believe in god look bad.

    • AJ says:

      01:16pm | 19/06/10

      There have been attacks by the Labor Party against a WA Govt Minister for being religious over the past couple of weeks… personally, I think drawing on ones religious beliefs for political attacks is one of the lowest forms of political point-scoring. Just goes to show that if you have no policies and no platform then you will scrape the bottom of the barrel to try and get a headline.

    • stephen says:

      01:17pm | 19/06/10

      64% of Christians are in this country ?
      Or 64% of people in this country are Christians ?
      Either way, I would query both equations.

      And I still don’t think teaching children Ethics is useful.
      No-one should be teaching Ethics, cause it’s an insult to the value of experience.
      Religious Instruction should be an out-of-school subject.
      Like skateboarding, pogo-sticks and ice-cream.

    • asanque says:

      01:17pm | 19/06/10

      One organisation has a reputation for lies, personal attacks and a holier than thou attitude.

      Its not the Greens.

      Save the hypocrisy of the ACL for your fundamentalists followers and not mainstream Australia.

    • Dee says:

      05:48pm | 06/12/11

      The Greens may not be ‘holier than thou” but their “more enlightened than thou” dismissal of others’ religious views is more than a put-off.

    • Dr. W says:

      01:18pm | 19/06/10

      The solution is very simple. Keep religion separated from politics, the state, the education system and society in general. Those who want to practice it, go ahead and do so, but do not pester and poison everyone else with it.

    • Mal says:

      01:43pm | 19/06/10

      Thanks for the heads up David.

      Any party that is Anti-Religion gets my vote, I have enough of the ACL.

    • Bill says:

      02:04pm | 19/06/10

      You state that “the overwhelming majority of Australian’s [sic] profess to hold religious beliefs”

      David, why are we supposed to take your article seriously if you can’t even use apostrophes correctly?

    • Dave Sag says:

      08:57am | 21/06/10

      Too much time spent studying their holy books and not enough time spent on basic education perhaps?

      It’s great to see a political party show some courage and put these sky-pixie believing nut jobs in their place. Based on this story I shall be voting Green this coming election.

      “Its enough to know that the garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairies at the bottom of it,” Douglas Adams

    • iansand says:

      02:09pm | 19/06/10

      So it is just a coincidence that the churches are encouraging their sheep to join the P&C?  I glad you cleared that up for me.  I was suspecting more sinister motives.

    • Space says:

      02:22pm | 19/06/10

      On the contrary: their attacks on religion show that the Greens are the only real alternative political party in this country. Both the ALP and The Liberal Party pander to the extremist minority that the ACL represent. Australian elections are never about voting for who’s best - they’re about voting for who’s least awful.

      Religious Education as it exists in NSW schools today has no place in secular Australian society. Parents can indoctrinate their children on their own time - they don’t need any assistance.

    • Bruce says:

      02:26pm | 19/06/10

      What ever you do, DO NOT VOTE GREEN. Vote for Liberal or Labor. Both our major parties have better skilled people and understand that one or two agenda’s do not make a good political party. Unhappy with Liberal or Labor contact you local member and let them know your not happy.

    • Dark Rider says:

      02:40pm | 19/06/10

      I regard the Greens as a bunch of fringe idiots, but the religious god botherers are worse. I agree with the comment from Phil Osopher above - bottom of the garden with the fairies.

    • Kathy Bader says:

      03:14pm | 19/06/10

      Great article David… shame on us Christians that there was even a need for a Green party :o(

      Why aren’t Christians taking the lead on such issues?

    • L. says:

      01:55pm | 20/06/10

      “Why aren’t Christians taking the lead on such issues?”

      Because they are too busy worrying about what I might be looking at on the Internet…that’s why.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      03:35pm | 19/06/10

      What is a christian lobbiest doing being involved in government, get out!

    • Satan says:

      04:53pm | 19/06/10

      Oh no the poor, pious set-upon religious types.  Huddling by their millions in their mega-churches, surrounded on all sides by enemies.  Still enjoying tax-exempt status and special access to children in public schools.  It’s about time all that was given a fair appraisal.  Seen the writing on the wall have we, Mr Hutt?  Your arseclowns Fielding and Conroy not working out too well?

    • Brett says:

      04:53pm | 19/06/10

      “He made the exact same mistake… suggesting that NSW legislation forbids children who opt out of religious education from undertaking other educational activities.  As Dr Kaye well knows, this is wrong.”

      How exactly is this assertion wrong, David? The department openly acknowledges that students who don’t attend religious education are indeed restricted from engaging in anything of educational value, so as not to put the scripture students at a disadvantage. Are you seriously suggesting that watching videos, chatting to other students and colouring-in classifies as “educational activities”?

    • Tom says:

      04:55pm | 19/06/10

      Ian (and David), in fairness, I know that there are faithful Christians who are members of the Greens.  Every political party has policies that some Christians are uncomfortable with - and I assume that these Christians have issues with some Greens policies.  They have, however, seen both major parties as being unsupportable for a variety of reasons - a very significant one the appalling lack of compassion in both major parties’ refugee policies. 

      However, the notion that any section of the Australian community should be shut out of the political discourse of the nation is very worrying - and it shouldn’t only be worrying for people of faith. (Please note that any religion (not just Christianity) is able to utilise time reserved for SRE, and many do.)

      So what if they form a lobby group?  There are lobby groups for every conceivable issue that make representations to Ministers and Members every day of the week.  Many of there are very narrow, single interest groups.  Some of them I find truly appalling.  But I don’t want to live in a country where people can’t make representations to elected officials.  Seriously, do any of us? 

      We don’t have a “democracy” in the original sense of the word (direct rule by the majority), we have a parliamentary democracy.  We elect people to form a government.  Any citizen can make representations to those elected leaders, whether or not they voted for them.  When the Eros foundation lobbies the government to lower the age of consent, I don’t like what they are asking for but, while I personally would be prepared to protest against their point of view and, maybe, form my own lobby group to make representations, I would not want to see their right to participate in the debate withdrawn.

    • AJ says:

      05:01pm | 19/06/10

      I quite like the spin on

      “behind a push which began in 2008 to have the Government remove the ability of Christian and other faith-based organisations to hire people who share their faith and values”

      Oh, what you ACTUALLY mean is removing provisions that allow religious and faith-based organisations to discriminate on a whole pile of factors that non-religious organisations aren’t allowed to discriminate on?  Funny that you didn’t phrase it like that, really…  I wonder why?

      I have great respect for Christians, and count myself as one.  I have no respect for the Australian Christian Lobby, which is an intolerant, unrepresentative, reactionary group of nutcases that wants to shove its particular morality down everyone elses throat.

    • Cathz0r says:

      05:22pm | 19/06/10

      haha well David, many of us believe that religion goes hand in hand with those fairies at the bottom of the garden.

      “However no Australian political party can try to pass itself off as being mainstream as long as it ignores the fact that the overwhelming majority of Australian’s profess to hold religious belief”

      That’s why they’re called an alternative party. They represent the views of atheists/agnostics in this country. We atheists deserve to be represented as much as people who believe in a creator. Are you saying that we should not be represented? And I’d say the overwhelming majority of young people are agnostic or atheist.

    • Peasant #3167 says:

      07:22pm | 19/06/10

      Whether fairies or science fiction, religions join people of poverty. Poverty is the majority. The majority rule. Form the alliance and start the revolution.
      Spread the wealth and stop social injustice.

    • James says:

      07:35pm | 19/06/10

      David Hutt is the NSW Director for the Australian Christian Lobby. Good to see a well reasoned unbiased piece from you there David. Religious freedom works both ways, while you should be free to practice your religion the people of Australia should be free from laws influenced by the church brand of “morality”.

      The Green’s seem to be the only party with little religious influence and are willing to stick up for our rapidly disappearing civil liberties. What does the church think about people being free to live their lives the way they want without any organisation trying to force their own beliefs onto them??

    • Andrew says:

      07:49pm | 19/06/10

      I am blown away by the religious intolerence demonstrated by most of the previous comments. Shame on you.

    • Brian says:

      10:37am | 20/06/10

      Andrew,
      Because someone criticises your view, it does not make them intolerant.  Democracy requires robust debate and no part of society should be immune from criticism, including religion.

    • L. says:

      02:01pm | 20/06/10

      “I am blown away by the religious intolerence demonstrated by most of the previous comments. Shame on you. “

      Go and visit some of the anti-muslim links from the ACL website…then come back and tell us who the intolerent ones are.

    • Michael says:

      03:35pm | 20/06/10

      Its a two way street.
      I am an agnostic. I do not believe in GOD as I have seen no proof that he exists, Likewise I have not seen any conclusive proof he doesn’t.
      I respect and have tolerance for all religions, what I do find though is I am put down constantly by people of Faith when they find out I don’t believe in god.
      Why can’t Christians (and people of other religions) accept and tolerate my beliefs?
      stop being hypocrites

    • Babar says:

      07:56pm | 19/06/10

      Oh how typical. It’s high time to slice and dice the whole “Australia is a [insert Western Abrahamic Monotheistic Religion] country” mentality out. Australia is populated predominantly by caucasoids, does that mean we are a White nation?

      I don’t think so hun.

      XOXO

    • John Good says:

      10:25pm | 19/06/10

      Ahh the greens , probably the most dangerous political group ever seen in Australia. They make the commos seem like angels, even if there is a very generous helping of communism in their ideology, along with agendas on just about everything that would bring this country to it’s knees. A wide open door to just about every peice of garbage in th world who wants to come here (including a a good many terrorists). Be very , very careful before you vote for this crowd of lunatics.

    • Old Fartur says:

      11:01pm | 19/06/10

      Religion according to the Greens. The Tree is God. Those who do not believe The Tree is God are heathens.

    • Daniel says:

      12:15am | 20/06/10

      I know organized religion in Australia cant handle the truth.I know it hurts but the Greens were very right on this isue.

    • Ben Gray says:

      12:45am | 20/06/10

      A predominantly Christian country are we? 64% huh? Have you been to church lately? I can tell you where 64% of the country is on Sunday mornings: Anywhere but church. You would be bloody lucky to get 10% of the country into church on Christmas morning, so stop lying.
      And yes, that’s an accusation that you deliberately obfuscate the truth to further your own ends, you’re a liar David Hutt.
      Christians routinely accuse Atheists of having no ethics, no moral compass, of being hedonists, and it happens far too often to be a “mistake”, so you deserve these supposed attacks, even if by “attack” you mean “attempt to deny Christians the ability to indoctrinate Australia’s children”.
      I don’t necessarily like the Greens, but give me them over the Christians any day, because if the Greens rape my children, Bob Brown will dob the offenders in to the police which is more than you can say for the majority of Christian denominations.

    • Robert Smissen Rural SA says:

      12:58am | 20/06/10

      Voting Greens? ? Why not just vote for destroying Oz

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:18pm | 20/06/10

      Didn’t know that Goldman Sachs or BP was fielding a political party…...

    • John A Neve says:

      05:22am | 20/06/10

      David,

      If any one has demeaned Australain society over the last 50 years or so, it has been the clergy of various Christian religions. To make matters worse, the so called leaders of the various denominations have turned a blind eye to the misdeeds of their clergy.

      So David, don’t demean The Greens, look to your own deveats.

    • Hot Tub Political Macine says:

      06:01am | 20/06/10

      While the greens indeed can be anti-faith we do need a third force in Australian politics. At the moment I’m genuinely angry with the racism in both major parties and so my vote is probably going green even though I’m a Christian. Why not family first you may ask. They are a Christian party displaying a distinct lack of compassion. A Christian party lacking in compassion makes about as much sense as a pen without ink. So even though I’m a man of faith - I will most likely vote green.

    • Delphic Oracle says:

      09:45am | 20/06/10

      Why would anyone who is not of a certain faith want to work for a community or group who is?  If they are not discriminating enough to find a position in a place where they fit, they aren’t worth emplying.  Too much time and money spent on fairies at the bottom of the garden.  Ethics and philosophy rise above religion every day.

    • Nate says:

      10:13am | 20/06/10

      The greens are a dangerous mob to say the least.  Their policies targeting gun owners, fisherman and campers for example show what will happen to those targeted by the Greens.  God help us if they win enough seats to leverage the Government in power.

      Sure I support directing your preferences away from the major parties, but do it intelligently and don’t let your primary or your preferences anywhere near the greens.

    • Soames says:

      11:43am | 20/06/10

      Attacks on religion are as common as wars, which, come to think of it, are largely the cause of wars one would think, that is, if one thinks, and if one thinks too deeply about one’s ethics, morals, one could under certain circumstances, become rather obsessed with one’s own thoughts to the exclusion of others, as is the case with different interpretations of religious practice. One ought to invite one’s neighbour over, perhaps for a sherry or two, pass the time of day, and not discuss religion or it’s shortcomings, and one might find common ground in the pleasure of one’s neighbour, which, one would have thought, is a short-cut to what is argued here.

    • Rodney Johnson says:

      10:41am | 21/06/10

      Religion ‘largely the cause of wars’. Are you serious.
      Joseph Stalin - killed 20 million
      Adolf Hilter - at least as many
      Pol Pot - 2 million
      Mao - how many tens of millions?
      What religious figure of the 20th century killed this many people? All of the above were devout athiests! Such a myth that athiests, the Greens and organisations such as Getup love to perpetuate over and over again, religion the cause of wars. What rubbish. Who was is that said if you tell a big lie often enough, people will believe it.

    • xyz says:

      01:44pm | 21/06/10

      Rodney Johnson… I have to correct you!

      Hitler was a Roman Catholic and he never renounced his faith! I am so sick of Christians trotting out the same old tired lies just to score a few cheap shots.

      As for the rest of them… they did not kill in the name of atheism (how could you even think that?). They killed in the name of their relevant political beliefs.

      Atheism is not a political belief… it is simply a non-belief in a god or gods… nothing more!

      If you really want to see some massive killings in the name of religion… let’s start with the Crusades and go from there, shall we?

    • xyz says:

      04:13pm | 21/06/10

      Rodney, I forgot to add… I call Godwin’s law… so you lose!

    • PatF says:

      01:17pm | 20/06/10

      This is like saying being rational disqualifies you from making decisions.

    • Scott says:

      02:19pm | 20/06/10

      I don’t agree with all of the Greens policies, but I do agree with some. I certainly agree with any policy that improves the personal freedom of Australians. On the balance of things, I will have to put them above both the major parties, mainly on the weight of their opposition to internet censorship.

      The problem with the two major parties is that their leaders are too similar. They both are the type who will pander to religios groups such as the ACL and will exhibit knee jerk reactions to moral panics.

    • Tom says:

      02:35pm | 20/06/10

      @AJ, no it means what it says… not ACTUALLY anything else.  I cannot imagine why - apart from wanting to create humbug legal precedents - that someone who is not a Christian would want to work in Christian organisation.  Why on earth should a Christian organisation be obliged to hire an applicant who does not share their faith.  How could someone who does not believe, in good conscience, carry out their duties?  Having Christian must surely be fundamental to making the organisation a “Christian” organisation in the same way as having atheist members is fundamental to being, say, the Athiest Foundation of Australia.  I can’t imagine that many religious people of any faith would want to work for the Foundation, and I would not blame the Foundation if they specifically required someone to be atheist in order to work for them - it would seem to me to be a legitimate job requirement.

    • Mal says:

      03:27pm | 20/06/10

      @Tom
      “Why on earth should a Christian organisation be obliged to hire an applicant who does not share their faith. “

      As long as any organisation gets tax breaks from the ATO then there is no excuse for not being subject to the same laws as every other Australian business.

      Apart from that, it’s the law.

    • Luke says:

      02:49pm | 20/06/10

      The Greens cry freedom from Christianity…
      This is so sad…
      We have been free from Christianity for a long time. Its not freedom from it we want, we just want to blame it for things we didnt deal with while we got our freedom.

    • john says:

      04:55pm | 20/06/10

      If extreme christians don’t want to drink alcohol, look at women in bikinis, learn about science, etc then thats fine but don’t try to force that same agenda on the rest of Australians, the way labor has forced a right wing christian agenda down our throats disgusts me. Things such as the internet filter, forcing video shops to have plain covers on R18 movies, not allowing R18+ rating for games have shown how much influence groups such as the Australian Christian lobby have over Australian politics. I’d rather the Greens policies of protection of civil liberties, ending the demonisation of asylum seekers, stopping the unparalleled destruction of the environment than having people like Stephen Conroy, Michael Atkinson, Stephen Fielding etc in parliament. I wonder if Jesus was still alive who he would vote for?

    • Dark Rider says:

      10:46pm | 20/06/10

      You mean you wonder if Jesus was EVER alive don’t you ?

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:45am | 22/06/10

      @ Dark Rider

      Jesus must have existed.  Why would anybody invent a messiah who didn’t actually meet the qualifications for a saviour described in the OT? He wasn’t a messiah, a prophet or a demi-god.  He was a man (or ‘a very naughty boy’).

    • LC says:

      07:25pm | 20/06/10

      A quick fact for you all:

      The author, David Hutt, is the director of the fundamentalist Australian Christian Lobby in NSW.

      Now that is out in the open, I’ll my 2c worth:

      I don’t care what you think. I’m NEVER voting for Federal Labor again after the internet filter catastrophe and I feel that I cannot vote in the Liberals in good conscience while Tony Abbott (aka Captain Catholic) runs the show.  Me, and 95% of generation Y have woken up to the fact that the 2 big parties are really one-in-the-same, and feel that the only way to get change in Australia is while the sheep vote labor/liberal, we vote the greens. Admittedly, they are unlikely become the next government, but if they grab a handful of lower house seats it might keep everyone more honest. That’s a bad thing because?

    • Dark Rider says:

      08:56pm | 20/06/10

      Have you actually read the Greens’ “policies” ?? If you had you would not ask the question posed in the last line.

    • LC says:

      02:22pm | 21/06/10

      Have you, Dark Rider?

      I have. I don’t agree with them all, but I like thier policies on human rights, the arts, war and education. Even if I didn’t, the fact they are the most outspoken party against internet filtering and they are more than wiilling to tell the ACL to take a hike alone gets them my vote.

    • Luke says:

      01:58pm | 23/06/10

      If labor OR the greens win the election i loose my job…
      And you are telling ME, BOTH PARTIES ARE THE SAME!!??
      For pete sake realise that things important to you arent important to everyone!!

    • Some Guy says:

      09:54pm | 25/06/10

      Re: Luke—

      “For pete sake realise that things important to you arent important to everyone!!”

      Perhaps you ought to heed your own advice rather than instructing people how and how not to vote, eh?

    • LC says:

      05:22pm | 14/07/10

      I agree completely Luke. For pete sake realize that things important to YOU aren’t important to everyone.

    • Yobbo says:

      09:05pm | 20/06/10

      Me, and 95% of generation Y have woken up to the fact that the 2 big parties are really one-in-the-same, and feel that the only way to get change in Australia is while the sheep vote labor/liberal, we vote the greens.

      95% of generation Y do not vote green, because they are not socialists.

      Admittedly, they are unlikely become the next government, but if they grab a handful of lower house seats it might keep everyone more honest. That’s a bad thing because?

      Because the greens are economic illiterates, still clinging to long-discredited theories, who dislike the modern world and think we should all abandon agriculture and live in caves.

      The fact that this would result in the death by starvation of 90% of the world’s current population does not bother them at all.

      That’s why.

    • LC says:

      02:12pm | 21/06/10

      “95% of generation Y do not vote green, because they are not socialists.”
      Are you a member of generation Y? If not, how would you know thier voting habits?
      I can tell you as a member of gen Y, Rudd has let us down in a huge way and Tony Abbott has given us no reason to trust him.

      “Because the greens are economic illiterates, still clinging to long-discredited theories, who dislike the modern world and think we should all abandon agriculture and live in caves. “
      No. Because they are not a mainstream party and there are too many “sheep” who think their only options are Labor or Liberal.

    • ant says:

      10:37pm | 20/06/10

      The term is “poring”, not “pouring”.
      And since the voting mainstream is Working Families who earn more than I do but still want my taxes to be poured (not pored) into their pockets, I’ll ensure my vote exhausts at the Greens, after the Stable Population Party and various others.

      Since a single person is now a second class citizen, anyone who proposes to look after the greedy “mainstream” earns last place with me. I’m disenfranchised, and feel no longer part of this society.

    • Terry Wright says:

      01:53am | 21/06/10

      The Devil has won!

    • D'evil says:

      04:53pm | 21/06/10

      I have??

      Seriously, no devil, no hell, and no evidence of any supernatural places or beings, makes religious claims more likely to be mythical fiction.

    • Person says:

      10:54am | 21/06/10

      >This is of course an absurd, paranoid image.

      But you nevertheless constructed it. As a straw man perhaps?

      If you object to what John Kaye said then please rebut his points or, conversely, for example, explain why what Peter Ingham said was accurate.

      When does factual inaccuracy become recklessness and when does recklessness become dishonesty?

      >a predominantly Christian country (64% to be exact)

      I think you’ll find that many people who self-declare as Christians in the census are Christians in name only.

      >a political party that is trying to position itself as the third force of Australian politics

      The voters of Australia will be the judge of that.

    • IMHO says:

      01:03pm | 21/06/10

      Who would Jesus vote for?

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:28pm | 21/06/10

      “Who would Jesus vote for?”
      As an apocalyptic prophet, probably nobody.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:24pm | 21/06/10

      David, the your attempt to show the Greens as anti-religion gets blown out of the water by the very transcript you linked to!

      Have a look at Dr Kaye seeking to insert the words “are free to profess, practise and maintain their own linguistic, religious, racial and ethnic heritage” into the Community Relations Bill.

    • Ian Holthouse says:

      02:14am | 22/06/10

      A vote for the Greens, is a vote for Labor. If you are a real diehard Labor, and now have the sense not to vote for Rudd, vote for an independent, never Green.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:50am | 22/06/10

      Ian, a vote for the Greens is a vote for the Greens.  If you preference Labour THEN it will probably be a vote for the ALP.  If you preference the Coalition then they’ll probably end up with the votes.  The Greens can’t direct preferences unless you specifically allow them to (by just voting ‘1’).

      Does any anti-Green person actually know how preferential voting works?

    • Ray says:

      10:55pm | 22/06/10

      The Greens do not respect religious freedom. For example, they discriminate against Christians by insisting that Christian schools should not discriminate against anti-Christian candidates when employing teaching staff.

    • Steely Dan says:

      09:57am | 23/06/10

      Religious freedom does not guarantee freedom of action, Ray.  And for good reason.  Not a fan of genital mutilation?  Don’t want to be killed for not believing in somebody else’s god?  Me neither, Ray.  Thank god (irony intended) that religious freedom does not guarantee freedom of any action their religion finds appropriate!

      Nobody’s religious freedom is being taken away when common sense anti-discrimination laws are enforced.  The people who run religious schools are still free to be religious, and still free to teach the kids their religion.  Don’t cry foul just because you don’t get to do whatever you want.

    • Ray says:

      11:43am | 23/06/10

      People should not forget that the Greens do not respect sanctity of life. They are pro-abortion and pro-euthanasia.
      Greens go out of their way to deprive people of their natural way of living. Witness the Wild Rivers Legislation in Qld, which the Greens forced on the Qland Govt, and which discriminates against indigenous residents of the region.

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:30pm | 23/06/10

      @ Ray

      “Witness the Wild Rivers Legislation in Qld, which the Greens forced on the Qland Govt”
      How did they do that, Ray? I’d love to hear your explanation for that one!

    • NJ says:

      03:42pm | 24/06/10

      As a religious person myself, I detest the influence of organised (i.e. domatic) religion over the two major parties - namely the likes of the ACL who have openly admitted on their website an Australian theocracy as a desirable state of affairs. So I can’t vote for Lab, can’t vote for Lib. The next biggest option is the greens, which is also unacceptable to me because of their regressive environmentalism and lack of economic liberty within their policies.

      I am left with the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) and maybe the Sex Party, which seems like an astute libertarian party, time will tell. Australia needs a politically libertarian, economically right leader, you know the 4th quadrant in the political compass.

    • James says:

      12:58pm | 25/06/10

      I’m voting Green because they are offering something new, not the same old crap that is dished up by twiddle dum and twiddle dumber.  Who can get excited about voting for the union maffia elite (i.e. Labour) or corporate arse kissers and their rich mates (Libs).  Somewhere along the way, the people have been forgotten, dispite both parties continously claiming to serve us.  The more parties say that the more suspicious I become.

      As for religious groups they creep me out, when I think of religion I think:

      Crusades
      Fundamentalist Terrorists
      Catholic Pederasts being protected
      Waco Texas
      Jones Town
      Power hungery wanna be politicans (i.e. the Catholic Church)
      People being stoned to death
      Religious wars
      Creationism
      The American right
      George W Bush
      The exclusive bretheran
      The Spanish Inquisition and torture in the name of Christianity
      Religious War
      The Anti Science brigade
      George Pell
      Cult


      As far as I am concered if you believe in a specific sky fairy of one type or another good luck to you but don’t expect your views to be taken seriously

 

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