In his deservingly scornful review of the book Iron John, Robert Bly’s absurd bible of the men’s movement in the United States, British author Martin Amis describes the comical pilgrimage made by maladjusted men into the American woods to sniff each other’s armpits, channel negative energy into circles of hate and howl at the moon at the fact that mum had them circumcised.

Come with me Brian…those girls were plain nasty anyway

Happily, this quest to unleash what Amis ridicules as “the hairy satyr within” does not appear to have any formal and organised equivalent in Australia.

This is probably because most Australian men have nothing of any real magnitude to get off their chest, or simply find that the odd night at the pub or the occasional fishing weekend provides ample therapy for any lingering sense of gender injustice. That, and the fact that we’ve got too wry a sense of humour and too much self-awareness to engage in anything that silly.

But while Australia does not have a men’s movement it does appear to have a number – perhaps a growing number – of maladjusted men.

It’s obviously a hard thing to quantify. There’s no box you can tick on the census (Anglo-Saxon, agnostic, salary 75k-100k, male, maladjusted) which provides a reliable statistic.

But they are out there. And unlike their macho cousins in the US, they’re not dancing like the Navajo or making a humpy out of twigs. To put a deliberately sexist spin on it, they’re whining like girls.

As more and more of our conversations take place online, it is cyberspace where the stroppier blokes among our number are giving voice to a range of emotions.

Some of it, in all sincerity, is genuinely moving stuff, involving family court battles where a man who claims to have been wronged by his wife has lost all access to their children.

But a lot of it is a combination of excuse-making and blame-shifting by men who’ve probably made stupid choices, or just haven’t got their act together, or have themselves destroyed their own marriage and lost contact with their kids through alcohol abuse and domestic violence. And a distressingly high portion appears to be unadorned misogyny, where men will seize on any suggestion that women can ever face a specific kind of hardship as a result of public policy, health issues, crime or the economy.

Cyberspace is a moshpit and we had an eye-opening experience on our site The Punch some months back where a perfectly innocent and reasoned piece about the impact of the global financial crisis on women became the spark for a boys-on-girls sandpit brawl.

The author (who probably doesn’t want me to rev the stink up again, so I’ll keep it vague) chronicled a number of pointers to the special type of hardship which women had suffered as a result of the downturn. One of these was the fact that, to their credit, many bosses had resisted the temptation not to sack workers but reduce their hours. But for many women, who were already employed part-time anyway, the adjustment was too great on their personal budgets, unlike men on full-time who found their hours being trimmed. On the flipside, women who had been out of the workforce for years were finding themselves going through the anguish of trying to re-enter work, having lost their occupational skills through motherhood, and feeling torn at having to juggle their children with this new pressure to provide.

This perfectly sensible article triggered a series of embittered responses from a bunch of blokes, some of whom used it to expound on a raft of tangential topics relating to their apparent emasculation at the hands of the sisterhood.

It’s become a recurring phenomenon, around similar themes, whenever the word “woman” appears in any article. The hostility is at its most pronounced in the following areas:

Illness: Even something as noble and benign as Pink Ribbon Day is held up as a sinister plot to draw more attention - and more donations - to the issue of breast cancer at the expense of the desperately unsexy prostate cancer. This (obviously) male condition has become the (allegedly) unsung cause of choice for angry men who feel that all the support and coverage is going in the direction of the fairer sex.

Sport: In a year dominated by sex scandals involving everyone from Matthew Johns to Wayne Carey to Brendan Fevola, there’s a view that these guys are actually the victims in a society where it’s the alcopop-fuelled teenage starlets who line them up as some kind of quarry. Any suggestion that the clubs could do more to get women involved in administrative positions, or that the players could just experiment with acting like humans, is dismissed as a politically-correct lecture.

Management: Sport aside, the assertion that women are perhaps under-represented on the board of pretty much everything is denounced as demeaning tokenism. The specious argument runs that nothing would insult women more than some concerted attempt via affirmative action, or just a collective act of goodwill, to slot them into a rare position of serious authority. Which means it’s easier to keep insulting them in the traditional way, by exclusion.

Crime: The idea that domestic violence and sexual assault has been somehow exaggerated or even concocted, while the men who are apparently victims of such treatment by women go unheard.

Family law: Mixed with liberal doses of all of the above to establish the men-as-victims case.

We spend a large part of our day umming and ahing as to whether we will publish the comments from these angry blokes who slot into the above categories. We run many of them because they’re indicative of a mindset which should at least be reflected. But you can’t help but think it would be healthier if these Australian guys could spend a weekend in the woods, rather than taking it out on whoever happens to be listening in cyberspace.

The saddest aspect in reading the missives from these angry men is the way their sense of isolation comes through. Many of them are in a predicament of their own making. But that should not absolve us from trying to find a way to bring them back into the community, perhaps initially by suggesting that sitting alone in front of a computer, randomly venting their fury, is the least social way to take part in society.

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77 comments

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    • Lisa says:

      03:15pm | 06/11/09

      As I said earlier, my feelings are that overall, we are a herd animal, and those individuals that step outside gender roles may be spectacularly punished in the sexual / relationship arena.
      Perhaps that is why all your unemployed chaps can’t find ‘sugar mommies’, Paul and DG. And perhaps that is why they couldn’t hide their thinly disguised contempt if they could find them!

      Perhaps my own humble story may be of some interest. As I said, I did a professional degree but quickly realised that within the workplace arena, men had a secret weapon that I was unlikely to acquire. I actually felt that my long hours and lack of time to groom and party meant that I was basically a less attractive mate in the eyes of my male peers than the secretary out the front of the office.
      Eventually I went back to uni to ‘find myself creatively’, and it was around this time - surprise surprise, with plenty of time on my hands - that I met my husband.
      After we became engaged I became closely involved in the full time business he was leasing, working for free (as was he) and generally just getting this thing going. I put $100,000 of my own money into it initially, with another $80,000 in cash to follow, as I sold off an investment.
      Two children later, my work load decreases (well, actually it increased exponentially but not in the official workplace) and I have the distinct sense that I have been made redundant from my actual job. So I suggested that I begin another business.
      I spent a year researching it. As our first business was finally becoming successful, my husband began casting around for a new enterprise to invest in. I presented my business idea to my husband, and told him we needed to invest $35,000. Basically, he laughed in my face and told me I was too busy with the kids. We ended up investing $600,000 in his idea… and the business failed.
      I can’t help feeling this is not an uncommon scenario (prioritizing men’s economic preferences over women’s, within the family).

    • DG says:

      12:08pm | 06/11/09

      Paul Horn (11:19am | 06/11/09)

      My point was that if a person chooses to support their partner (i.e live off the financial benefits of their partner, rather than derive their own income) they can hardly be surprised that their partner is better off (financially) if things change.

      I deliberately used gender neutral language in my explanation - perhaps instead of ‘generally’ I should have said ‘stereotypically’. I dare say most of the population wish that they could live off their “other half” without having to work.

      LISA:

      You aren’t explaining why you would be in a relationship with someone that was going to stop you getting what you want in life. Why blame the partner? Why not accept responsibility for the decision to stay in the relationship?

      If you remain in a relationship with someone that prevents you from fulfilling your dreams - accept responsibility for your decision to remain in the relationship.

      If you decide to be in a relationship on the understanding that you will be supporting their career rather than seeking your own - live with your decision. Don’t change the goal posts and expect the other party to be supportive of your unilateral decision.

      If you desire to get what you want in a partner makes it harder to find a partner - accept that is a consequence of your desires.

      If you enter a relationship with one set of priorities and then change to the opposite don’t be surprised when your partner doesn’t like the change and wont change their priorities to match.

      Maybe the best result if for people to explore potential partners hopes and dreams before committing. that would be a novel approach.. Think before acting.

    • Paul Horn says:

      12:07pm | 06/11/09

      Lisa Thank You for responding but you speak of extreme exceptions and not the rule!

      The vast vast vast majority of women who provide support for their husbands business do so simply at an opportunistic level. That support is limited to ensuring invoices are paid, orders are placed, tax receipts are filed etc. If anything it is nothing more than basic clerical support that saves the husband from having to employ a PA to do the paperwork. It often gives the woman something to do and is in her own interests as it provides her a unique position to see what income her husbands business generates and to ensure that his business and therefore her income stream is maximised.

      In the vast majority of cases women who marry or enter relationships with successful businessmen improve their standard of living immeasureably. Had they never met their successful husband chances are they would never enjoy the lifestyle improvement and opportunities that such a union confers.  The support a woman provides in enabling a man to be successful is greatly over exaggerated. Many successful men would achieve that status irrespective of their partner. It is the press that breed this lie!

      And a successful business woman in her own right would rarely in fact never give up her own business to partner a far less successful male. She perhaps would be willing to forgo her ambiiton only if her suitor were vastly more successful than her! Sacrifice??  No damned way Lisa - sheer selfish opportunism. I would be very interested to see if you could provide one example of a very rich business women who bucks the trend!

    • Lisa says:

      10:51am | 06/11/09

      Paul, your choice of the words ‘complete disdain for the work ethic’ and ‘sugar mummy’ says it all. Women who support their husbands in work and business are not doing nothing, they are usually actively coaching and assisting their partner to do well.
      Please note also, I am focusing on the investment in training and capitalisation that takes place for women once they are mated / married.
      Alas, relating is a complicated business and most people are not in a position to explore every possibility of their mate’s personality before mating. Perhaps in many cases the woman has not even thought of her great business idea at that stage. That is life.
      Many men would never even consider the possibility that their wife was a better business person than they are, and that the family money (and bank loans) should be directed towards helping her achieve her grandiose business plans, instead of his own.
      As I look at the business community around me, I see that if a woman has a business, almost always, it is a small, relatively low cost business with minimal investment and few staff.
      Ironically, it may be business that would better help women achieve the mix of children and work that has led to women demanding first equal pay…and then reduced / more flexible hours.

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:19am | 06/11/09

      Ridiculous comments DG. There are literally milions of blokes out there who have no desire to work at all and would be absolutely salivating at the prospect of partnering up with highly successful ladies. Lisa only needs to widen her field of potential mates and she will be swamped with chaps bearing a complete disdain for the work ethic and only too happy to provide her with all the personal and career support she needs to get ahead. But alas as I have said previously a snowball has a greater chance in Hell than a chap with no prospects hooking up with a sugar mummy! Unfortunately that prized privelige is reserved almost exclusively for the feminine gender.

    • DG says:

      09:46am | 06/11/09

      Lisa:

      I agree, it is a case of ever one wanting to have their cake and eat it.

      You’ve hit it right on the head, some people (mostly men) are looking for a partner that will support them and give them what they want - they are (generally) happier to put the relationship aside and pursue other interests. The outcome is that these other interest take priority over family and they spend less time with their partner and children as a result.

      Others (generally women) tend to put relationships first - and as a result spend more time maintaining their relationship and supporting their partner. The outcome is that the interest in a relationship takes priority over career and they earn less as a result.

      This isn’t a ‘glass ceiling’ - this is the cost of making a choice. If Person A considers career to be more important than relationships and person B considers relationships to be more important than career (or even considers them to be equally important) - which would you expect to have the better career? I imagine it would be the one that puts the career above all else.

      There are 3 possible outcomes for a couple in this regard:
      (1) one person maintains the relationship while the other pursues their career,
      (2) Both pursue their careers,
      (3) both maintain their relationship.

      Now if you have chosen to be the supportive parent at the cost of your own career (choice 1) - that’s the choice YOU made (regardless of your gender).  If you subsequently change your mind, accept responsibility for your decision, and move forward. Sure you’re on the back foot, but accept that’s what you decided to do. it’s got nothing to do with your gender, and more to do with what you were willing to sacrifice for the things that you wanted at the time.

      Personally, I would love nothing more than to be a stay at home dad. I consider relationships to be more important than careers - my partner is very career focused so I support her in what is important to her. In 10 years If I change my mind I don’t see how I can blame her for the fact that I chose to put my career in second place. I’ll earn less and that’s the end of it. The cost of my decision. 

      Ultimately it comes down to each person having the courage of their convictions to say X is important to me and to accept that you are competing with people that do have priorities.

      If a person (either gender) is looking for a supportive partner, why would that person be in a relationship with someone that is more interested in their own career than supporting their partner? If you know the other person is looking for a supportive partner to further their own career, why would you be in the relationship unless you were willing to make the sacrifices required to support them?

    • Paul Horn says:

      09:39am | 06/11/09

      Oh Lisa I have heard it all now. That is the biggest load of codswallop ever to be contributed on this subject. I don’t know whether Mr Penberthy will post my contribution as he didn’t bother with my last one. Sometimes the truth is just too hard to bear when it annihilates the very foundations of your twisted philosophies! 

      I would completely counter your erroneous argument that it is women that must prove themselves “compliant” to the financial and career aspirations of their potential mates. This is borne out by the facts! Of unemployed men between the ages of 20 and 50 only half are in any form of a relationship with a woman. Of men in menial occupations such as labouring, factory work etc that figure increases to around 70 percent (ie 30% single). Of men in managerial or administrative positions that figure increases again to about 85%! So you see it is not women that are competing but overwhelmingly doing the rejecting of mainly unemployed and “lesser” employed males. But you probably come from the leafy suburbs and would never consider the wider picture. Did you ever think Lisa that it may be in fact the womans choice to work part time not some strange and weird desire to prove herself accomodating to her mates financial aspirations! Did you ever think Lisa that many men work in technically and physically demanding jobs for the very purpose of providing better oppportunities for their families that their wives have absolutely no inclination to pursue?
      I must admit a certain resentent at my wives choices! She chose to go back to work three days a week after having two children. I would have liked to have swapped roles and been the one to stay at home but she just laughed! I have to accomodate her choices! Had she decided not to return to work then I would have had to accept that, had she chose to return to full time work then I would have had to again accomodate her decision. I am the one that always seems to be rearranging my schedule to meet her work demands as do the vast majority of men!! If I chose to work only three days a week she would not be happy as our income would be drastically reduced! But alas in the big macho male world men are far behind women when it comes to enjoying these flexible work arrangements. Companies will bend over backwards to meet a womans demand to alter her hours but will be completely intransigent in meeting a males request for the same priveliges!

      And how many women choose to continue working part time even though their children are grown up?  In the leafy suburbs where I now reside there is a substantial proportion of white female doctors. Nearly all of them work part time and nearly all of them have grown up children! Their decison to work part time is their own privileged choice! Not their husbands expectation or demand. Strangely enough in the outer Northern suburbs where I grew up the sight of a female doctor let alone a white one was non existent. 

      And if women feel compelled to alter their life circumstances by marrying financially successful men then why don’t they advertise or restrict themselves only to lower occupation or unemployed males? Believe me Lisa thare are literally millions of blokes that would jump at the chance to be looked after by a higjly paid and highly successful female doctor, if you like I can get you in touch with dozens of them. But then again a snowball would have a greater chance in hell than an unemployed bloke from Elizabeth getting an opportunity to date a career hungry female doctor.

      So please don’t persist with lying fallacious rubbish that twists the facts and fails to encompass the real lot that befalls the vast majority of hapless males.  Have a nice day1

    • Lisa says:

      05:52pm | 05/11/09

      Geoff raises some important issues, but it’s important to look at the interaction between the sexes as well as individual failings (or strengths). Women - and men - are rewarded socially for remaining within the culturally accepted gender roles, and can be ostracized for falling outside them.
      For example, marriage for many women is an absolutely vital social goal, and many - if not most - are unwilling to risk becoming less sexually successful for the sake of their career.
      An ongoing private joke of mine is that men select for compliance above any other feminine trait. To be sexually successful, a woman must prove herself co-operative with a man’s financial and lifestyle goals. Once married, the family ‘glass ceiling’ is entrenched, and is reflected in our corporate ‘glass ceiling’.
      Even highly qualified women, such as lawyers and doctors, wish to work part time or stay at a relatively lower level within their career because they just don’t (as a group) have the genuine, long-term work support in their husband that the traditional wife provides.
      And, no, this does not just mean lip service and the odd cooked meal, it also means signing as a guarantor on a family business, and generally rearranging a lifestyle to suit the main income earner entirely.
      Hence we have the situation in pharmacy and veterinary studies where most graduates are women - and most business owners are men.

      was quite a shock for me to realise that f

    • Andrew Goff says:

      12:49pm | 05/11/09

      Angry, angry, angry people.

      The problem of course is that 80% of angry people (men or women) are angry because of their own mistakes and their unwillingness to take personal accountability. This compeltely marginalises the 20% who have legitimate reasons to be angry.

      Some cases in point:

      Men’s suicide rate is higher than Women’s, but suicide attempts are very close to even. Men are just better at offing themselves. Should men be angry about this? At the risk of a morbid generalisation, maybe blokes in the bush should give up such easy access to their rifles? 80% refusal to take accountability, 20% horrific human tragedy.

      Women don’t get to sit on the board, or get high ranking corporate positions. Well, how many women choose to do an accountancy degree? Or at the root cause: how many parents teach their boys how to read and do maths, but teach their girls how to read and do make-up? Women make exceptional Doctors, Lawyers, and CEOs - but there isn’t a large enough pool of very highly qualified Women to bring equality to the boardroom. The sooner this changes the better, but the issue is 80% refusal to make the sacrifices to get there, 20% being hard done by.

      The only solution to most “anger issues” is to return to an ethic of personal accountability. This will still leave the 20% of genuine problems, but at least then they will be clearly genuine and won’t engender a radical reaction from the other side of whatever argument is being had.

      I’d say that’s a long way off… so in the meantime let’s focus on supporting the people in our society at a genuine disadvantage: the gay and lesbians, the devoutly religious, and the libational party in queensland.

    • Lisa says:

      10:44am | 05/11/09

      The problem is that women have different needs according to their circumstances, and all of these conflicting needs are herded under the one banner of feminism.
      For example, while I had been brought up to think I could do anything as well as a man, in my first professional job, I quickly realised that the older men in the office had a secret weapon no woman ever could have: the supportive wife.
      Very few men actively support their woman’s career in the way that wives regularly do. Family businesses are commonly supportive of the man’s training and experience, not the woman’s. How many men do you know that do the books and the running around for their wife’s business?
      There is a kind of family ‘glass ceiling’ that is directly reflected in the glass ceilings of the working world.
      Families will invest large sums pursuing the man’s economic interests, usually not so much in the wife’s.
      These power-related aspects of family life are not reflected in the new shared parenting laws, where the mother is expected to lose her job (carer) and cobble together any job after years of neglect of her own marketable skills.
      Men, on the other hand, benefit greatly from the hidden support of the women in their lives, in their careers.
      Rather than picking out the nuances of the conflicting arguments of feminism, men become frustrated at the apparent one-size-fits-all of the label, which they find aggressive.

    • Helen says:

      08:19am | 05/11/09

      Goodness me! So people object to stereotyping of “Men’s movement” men!
      It’s almost as if the decades-long stereotyping of the Women’s movement as hairy, ugly man hating monsters who “burn bras” (although that never even happened), had never been. Of course the ones objecting to the mockery of the moon-howlers have NEVER participated in such portrayals. Of course!!

      Or perhaps, mockery is OK for me but not for thee… or something?

    • Greg says:

      05:16pm | 04/11/09

      All the nonsense about sniffing armpits and howling at the moon is obviously just a poorly disguised attempt to link genuine concerns to a bunch of idiots.
      Maybe Penbo ought to read “The Myth of Male Power by Warren Farrell” if he really wants to understand the issues discussed here.
      Farrell was a far-left US liberal, before he saw the light, so Penbo might at least identify with his pre-enlightened thinking.

    • Eric says:

      03:46pm | 04/11/09

      JNR: Thank you for your interest, but an autobiography would be beside the point.

      The issues are the important things. And, while I’d like to say my piece, the editors of The Punch consider it “repetitious” when I explain. So I can’t.

      However, Google can help you. A few minutes spent searching on “men’s rights” and “men’s issues” will yield much material for research. It will also reveal forums where men’s viewpoints are not censored, and can be evaluated and argued on fair terms.

    • Andrew says:

      08:26am | 04/11/09

      Meanwhile… Hungry Jacks have just reintroduced the Angry Whopper for all the disaffected menfolk out there to munch on.

    • DG says:

      08:04pm | 03/11/09

      Bec:

      Actually, I’ll agree that there are some males who have spent plenty of time soiling the feminism flag. Unfortunately mud sticks.

      My suggestion for a name change is really one of practical consideration. It becomes much harder for disgruntled members of the community to rally against a “equal rights” movement, without the history of feminism. After all an ‘equal rights movement’ is, necessarily interested in the rights of all people equally - regardless of gender. The conversation becomes:

      THEM: You [new title]ists are just looking after women.
      US : No, we want everyone be treated the same regardless of gender.
      THEM: You hate babies and want to abort them all.
      US: No, we believe that a person has the right to control their own body and those rights are available for all from birth until death. If it makes you feel any better we think that people should have the right to medical advice on ending their own life.
      THEM: Why do you want to kill people?
      US: ... oh, hell with this. It has to be Happy Hour *somewhere* in the world.

      My point is that progress isn’t assured, there will always be those reluctant to change. But in some cases it’s better to just change your name and attack from a different direction - that way you get to leave the baggage at the door. Ultimately, a name change isn’t going to fix everything, but it would make it harder for those that are reluctant to change of the world to blame feminists for everything that happens and that has happened before.

    • bec says:

      05:08pm | 03/11/09

      DG, what I get annoyed about is other people without our backgrounds, experiences and knowledge - many deliberately adversarial to the interests of the women and men that the old ways don’t suit - trying to tell us what we believe in or how to identify. It gets really frustrating. I’d argue that the feminist flag was soiled more by people like Rush Limbaugh and the extreme anti-feminists than it ever was by us. The arguments usually run like this:

      THEM: You feminists all hate men and want to castrate them.
      US: Er, we don’t.
      THEM: Well, you hate babies and want to abort them all.
      US: But some of us have kids or want them—
      THEM: Why do you hate men?
      US: ... oh, hell with this. It has to be Happy Hour *somewhere* in the world.

      As much as this is a movement that benefits (and has the further potential to benefit) any person in society, ultimately it deserves to be named what its pioneer members named it. Personally I prefer womanism, but that’s a battle I can’t really be bothered picking.

    • Paul Horn says:

      11:55am | 03/11/09

      Another ridiculious rant Mr Penberthy! It would seem that any amount of misandrist tripe vomited out of the mouths of feminist slime can always be treated as fact and any challenge looked upon as nothing less than a backlash. Perhaps you and your liberal colleagues could spend a little time with these so called “disenfranchised” men and try and understand where they are coming from.

      You say that men who find themselves in bad situations have generally only themselves to blame but of course women who are attracted to violent, drug addicted or alcoholic men can only ever be victims! I know quite a number of women in this category who are not afraid to dish a little violence out themselves when the situation is to their advantage!

      And this continual carping about enforced equality is nothing less than dictatorship of the most extreme order. Men and women never ever will be equal. You can create equality of opportunity but you will never create equality of circumstance! Where are the millions of women lining up to work in the mines, or the petrochemical industries, or the power generation corporations? Where are the women flooding the Engineering schools, the mathematical sciences or IT disciplines? The stench of your pathetic arguments would put this down to discrimination rather than the disinclination of women to pursue these careers. Were the argument on the other foot you would be blaming blokes for not getting off their behinds and pursuing “lucrative” careers.

      And on that note not all men have themselves to blame, males who are the victim offspring of single mothers who have children fathered by multiple mates have no choice!  But of course you would’nt hear a feminist hypocrite campaigning about thehir situation as this arrangement suits them!

      And please expain this hateful comment by none other than that prime Government funded male hater Eva Cox who expressed how sick to her stomach she felt at Kevin Rudds selection of mainly white males to lead his “Thinkfest” not so long ago. She offered no alternative, no constructive criticism, no reasoned argument just sheer emotional revulsion. I don’t understand being a bloke, why this hateful diatribe is acceptable and goes unchallenged!
      Feminists don’t give a damn about equality as they know it will never happen. You cannot engineer sexuality, despite their best attempts! Women will never work the same hours as men, will never choose to work in remote or isolated places in equal numbers or anything approaching it , nor will they choose technically or physically demanding professions. They fill the ranks of retail and public service departments where they can enjoy the trappings of the big city! The argument use to be about equal pay and working under the same conditions as men but now it is about the right to work “part time” and child care!!!  All female centric arguments. The dialogue is only ever about women’s supposed disadvantage. Where are the hordes of women advertising for stay at home husbands so that they can continue to enjoy working full time? I have met hordes of ladies only too willing to give up work once they get that ring on their finger and not one who offered me the opportunity to be a stay at home father! Women enjoy far greater choice but then whinge and complain when that choice does not reap the same financial benefits as heir male counterparts. The idiotic logic applied to womens groups and the complicit press is atounding!

      When will men rise up against this filth and perversion! Over to you Mr Penberthy! Punch On!

    • Mort says:

      11:23am | 03/11/09

      See Bec – you are all doing feminism wrong!!! Lucky we have these guys to help us sort it out and tell us what it really means. It really is too much for our girly irrational brains to figure out all that hard stuff. 

      Oooo look something shiny

    • Helen says:

      11:20am | 03/11/09

      Feminists, racial and religious minorities,homosexuals, illegal immigrants, men pay for everything, Orwellian, political correctness… My bingo card’s full.

    • Greg says:

      10:36am | 03/11/09

      What’s that? Men are starting to whine endlessly and claim victimhood rights? I wonder where they learnt that from? Feminists? Racial and religious minorities? Homosexuals? Illegal immigrants?
      Men are the only group left where it is still OK (and even encouraged) to vilify them, while they are expected to just shut up and pay for everything.
      It is the inevitable outcome from an Orwellian society saturated in political correctness, where “we are all equal but some are more equal than others”.
      Men just want to be treated fairly, but they continue to get stuck with “social justice”.
      Hopefully my post will be accepted for publication. If not, just let me know and I’ll add a few spelling mistakes to help people with opposing opinions feel superior without needing to attempt any type of rational debate.

    • JNR says:

      09:57am | 03/11/09

      Eric, Could you perhaps share some of your life experiences with us? Maybe write a bit about who you are and the things that have shaped you?.

    • DG says:

      09:29am | 03/11/09

      Your comment:Bec:

      You claim that there is plenty wrong with trying to change the name and then only argue that it has a good name. That sounds suspiciously like argumentum ad antiquitatem.

      “The movement - for which there is a clearly defined set of ultimate goals which nearly all would agree with…”.

      Where are these clearly defined objectives? Are they written anywhere or just some general idea that gets passed from person to person? Where is the body or organisation responsible for representing these views?

      Do you deny that the feminist movement denied men certain rights that they had held for many years (ignoring whether those rights were justifiable, which I agree they were not)?

      Is it not a logical consequence that the feminist movement MUST be adversarial when it seeks not to give women the same rights as men, but to take rights from men. For example - the right to use corporal punishment on one’s partner, the gender equality could have been achieved by women to use force as well - that would have been ‘equal’ (in the sense of both parties having the same rights). Instead of granting women equal rights, rights were taken away from men (I’m not saying that the right should have been retained, simply that it was a right taken away rather than the granting of equality).

      I’m deliberately using bold examples - the more subtle ones are things such as an employer is expected to employ an equal number of male and female employees to avoid being seen as sexist. This is true even where there is no gender bias in the selection process.

      “You do realise that we don’t live in big lady-bubbles from which all men are excluded or chastised, right? “

      This is really my point. There are some people who use the feminism flag to do exactly that - to exclude and chastise men just for being men. Whether that is the true goal of feminism is impossible to say (without an established, written set of goals), I personally don’t think that was ever the intention. However I suspect that the feminism flag has been so badly soiled by the extremists that it is time to rally around a new flag in the interest of gender equality - and to move away from the adversarial history of the movement. Consider a military coup takes place in an adversarial manner that adversarial manner is necessary to effect change. However, but there comes a time when the coup must end and the community must join together again under a common banner that distances itself from the adversarial coup.

      This reformation does not mean the coup was wrong, nor does it mean that the coup should be forgotten. In many respects it affirms that the coup was necessary and has been successful in establishing the institutions that it originally sought (ie. equal rights with respect to gender).

      There comes a time when it is necessary to move from the adversarial to the co-operative. I think that time has come for the feminist movement.

    • bec says:

      06:31am | 03/11/09

      I don’t see anything wrong with your intellect. I do, however, see plenty wrong with trying to change the name. The movement - for which there is a clearly defined set of ultimate goals which nearly all would agree with - has a perfectly good name. I would also suggest that the movement is only as adversarial as its opponents would like to portray it as. You do realise that we don’t live in big lady-bubbles from which all men are excluded or chastised, right?

    • DG says:

      05:58am | 03/11/09

      Bec:

      Yes, as an individual who supports the general purposes and direction of humanism, I am fully aware of what humanism means. It has the handy benefit of putting aside various institutions that have a history of gender inequality - religious institutions.

      In fact my reference to humanism was a deliberate nod to the idea of a complete philosophy rather than a shapeless morass with no stated goals or objectives. (note my previous comment “As far as I am aware there is no feminist charter of equality - simply a lot of people fighting for what they want”).

      AS for lost ‘privileges’ - I would suggest that it was more accurately identified as matter of lost rights. It wasn’t just that men could do something, they had a right to do it that was, at various instances if I recall correctly, upheld by the courts.

      Again, I did not suggest that the loss of these rights was not the best thing for the community (nor do I actually know of any one having said anything of that nature) I simply stated that feminism is necessarily linked to the taking of power from men and granting of rights to women. In fact I expressly said “I am not suggesting that ...  this taking of power was inappropriate. On the contrary, I think that it was necessary at that time”. But my point was that as the law has reached a point of equality the continuing ‘fight’ is one of a social and philosophical nature rather than one of legal rights.

      By extension (from the taking of rights from men and giving rights to women expressly), feminism is SEEN as adversarial in nature due to the prevailing culture when it began. My suggestion for a new philosophy and organisation with an appropriate name was intended to move away from that adversarial background and into a more inclusive future.

      I would die a happy man if people who posted responses to previous posts actually read those posts and posted thoughtful, meaningful responses rather than casting aspersions on the intellect or maturity of the author of that previous post.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:04pm | 02/11/09

      Haven’t studied evolutionary biology and anthropology. Not qualified to comment on this article.

    • E says:

      10:18pm | 02/11/09

      @DG - I would have a beer with you.

      @Andrew - I am a man

    • Another feminist hijacker says:

      10:03pm | 02/11/09

      Peter, you said:

      “needs a Bex and a good lie down”  ...can’t you think of a better line? Bex is carcinogenic and causes renal failure.

      *********
      The fact that Bex caused renal failure was discovered by a female doctor, and henceforth dismissed by male members of the medical and pharmaceutical industries for quite some time.

      Bex was mainly being plugged to women and they were dropping like flies.

      So maybe it fits, after all.

      Actually, it fits because ‘have a bex and good lie down’ was pretty derogatory to women - suggesting that any problems a women was ‘worrying her pretty head about’ could be solved with a headache powder.

      It’s just meant as a gentle poke.

    • bec says:

      08:30pm | 02/11/09

      FFS. I would die a happy woman if people with a problem with the terminology for feminism would at least wiki what humanism actually is.

      And boo hoo. So what if they have lost privileges that didn’t benefit the community. The minority of men who complain about this are just pathetic crybabies annoyed at having to share their toys. Since when should society be ruled by a tyranny of toddlers?

    • Andrew says:

      06:03pm | 02/11/09

      Gosh, this blog has been hijacked by women discussing feminism!

    • Chris says:

      05:16pm | 02/11/09

      Penbo,

      case in point for your article - you will remember one guy’s response to my piece a few weeks ago in The Punch, on the beating, rape and murder of the Sth African, Eudy Simelane, an act of ‘corrective rape’ on her because she was gay. His comment: “But no, we always have to pick on men and make them the scapegoats.”

      I remember being flabbergasted, and wondered what exactly was going on this guy’s mind to respond to that story by asking us not to ‘scapegoat men”.

    • DG says:

      03:55pm | 02/11/09

      Before the abuse starts:

      Saying that feminism is tied to the taking of power from men and the granting of rights to women is NOT the same as saying feminism was a bad thing - or endorsing the powers that men had.

      But the reality is that if you give a person rights you take away another persons power. That doesn’t mean that the power was justified, just that it existed. Pre-feminism men had the right to use corporal punishment if their wife ‘misbehaved’ - feminism gave women rights that meant men no longer had that power (or rather, in that case it didn’t give a right to women it simply took away the right to use corporal punishment).

      I am not suggesting that corporal punishment should be used or that this taking of power was inappropriate. On the contrary, I think that it was necessary at that time - but as legislation currently has made those steps and we are now looking at a more general social reformation perhaps it is time for a new label. Humanist?

    • DG says:

      03:24pm | 02/11/09

      E -

      I think that you’ll find that this one isn’t quite that simple. I know plenty of women that rally against feminism and accusing it of making the world worse for women by forcing them to work outside the home - I suspect that this is the reason that feminism clings to some of the patriarchal traditions. If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard a woman say its her right to stay at home and look after the kids (and her partners duty to work), well, I wouldn’t need to work either.

      The reality is that there are as many different visions of feminism as there are feminists - it’s a movement for ‘women’ by women, but you must acknowledge that it pushed for equal rights regardless of those women that were quite happy with the way things were or would like to go back to that era (my wife spends plenty of time complaining about feminism ruining the world for women).

      As for Mort’s comment about women having to trade on their looks, there is nothing about feminism that STOPS women trading on their looks. After all shouldn’t people use everything that they have at their disposal to get ahead in the world?

      I agree there are plenty of feminists that complain about others using there looks and there are feminists that argue they should be permitted to use their looks to best advantage. As far as I am aware there is no feminist charter of equality - simply a lot of people fighting for what they want. The irony is that while they all fight under the one banner, they aren’t all fighting for the same thing.

      Personally, I consider feminism to be a lazy badge that says nothing about a persons beliefs. If a person stands for equality why not say that? Why carry this unwieldy shield of feminism that is, in my humble opinion, tied to the taking of power from men and giving of rights to women.

    • eva cox says:

      03:19pm | 02/11/09

      I have a dilemma: I am delighted to read David Pemberthy’s well thought out views and endorse most of them enthusiastically but as a known feminist that will be seen as proof of his sins. I agree the commentators on line seem to have an over-representation of men whose splenetic responses, almost always behind aliases indicate a scary level of anger. What is most concerning is that most comments of this type often fail to engage with what was said but, on seeing some name , responding to assumptions about what might have been said. Is this a form of illiteracy or premature verbal ejaculation?  So I read drivel rather than thought through responses. And I put my name on it!

    • E says:

      02:05pm | 02/11/09

      DG - if you are under 35 you understand, if not then its from after your time. But modern social tribes are generally matriachial, with sexual favours traded for social conformity.
      I shoud mention i have a touch of aspergers syndrome and 150 IQ, so maybe its just from my lofty position that most people look like desperate rutting apes.

    • E says:

      01:59pm | 02/11/09

      No Mort, Ben doesnt get any sex because he has been judged by the tribe as ‘trash people’, havent you heard the song?

      Sigh, yes I understand that is what feminism was ‘supposed’ to do, but it got chatted up by post modernism, and decided it was in love. So instead of rejecting the patriachial patterns and gender memes violently foisted upon women of previous ages, feminism decided to re-brand them as ‘girl power’ and just keep everything pretty much the same.

      I talk to my partner about it all the time, and we have very definite ideas about the sort of women our daughter will grow up to be. So there raspberry

    • DG says:

      01:56pm | 02/11/09

      @E -

      I appreciate that we are well away from the original topic, but -

      What do you mean by “sexual manipulation of weakminded men”?

    • Kathleen says:

      01:54pm | 02/11/09

      @DP
      Fair call, great article.
      Perhaps you could follow it up with features on two other common groups that seem to be drawn to online blogs:

      1) Those who haven’t read or understood the article, then personally attack the author and anyone else who dares to respond.

      2) Those whose brains latch-on to one or two words of the 1000-word piece and use them as ammo to blast the media, Generation Y, parents these days, women, men, the Government, Tellytubbies, or whatever chip their shoulders desire for the day…

    • Mort says:

      01:45pm | 02/11/09

      Oh Dear E,

      Feminism actively rejects women being reduced to having to trade on their looks and femininity to get by in life – that is what we try to escape from - where on earth do you get your twisted information?

      I’d suggest Ben doesn’t get any sex because he is totally lost his ability to relate to women as actual humans

    • E says:

      01:42pm | 02/11/09

      @Helen, perhaps. I was alluding to socially permissive with no chance of harm.

      And secondly, its just rude to assume that I am using your definitions, which you imagine are mutually exclusive, and then leaping to the outrageous and offensive conclusion that I am somehow incoherent.

      Its exactly the sort of problem that I am alluding to. What you say makes no argument, its social invective and casting apersions, and in a world where stupidity and ignornace are protected by the nanny state, while simultaneously sexual manipulation of weakminded men is permitted (see not so mutually exclusive as you liked to imagine), people who made ridiculous statements are free from fear of the ridicule they most richly deserve.

      Further, the idea that there is some sort of dichotomous ‘scale’ between permssive society and the nanny state is a foolish oversimplification, and in technical sense ‘a false dichotomy’. But im sure you have surrounded youself with men who pretend you arent imbecilic in return for what? and so are completely immune from anyone who makes good arguments or proposes ideas that you havent seen on Home and Away or Today Tonight.

    • Helen says:

      01:28pm | 02/11/09

      “E”, is society “permissive/anything goes” or a “nanny state”? They’re rather at the opposite ends of the scale, aren’t they? Could it be your thought processes, like your sentences, lack coherence?

    • E says:

      01:19pm | 02/11/09

      how are ‘manly masculine men’ defined?
      What is femininity?

      This permissive, anything goes, nanny state has led to a real unbalance in the power of men and women. There arent any animals to be defended from, meat comes from the supermarket and there is a (barely) functioning police force (for the middle and upper class). So what is the role of a man?

      It seems that women have been reduced by feminism into trading their bodies in youth for social illusions of respect and being simply ignored in middle age. In fact many of them are quite embaressing. But given the social power structures, based around image, symbolism ignorance and triviality, without any basis in hard reality (since everything is reduced to paper driven abstraction), the manipulative female willing to flash some cleavage is the queen of the castle and pity the poor man who attempts to stand up to her. He will be oestracised, no sex for Ben.

    • Andrew says:

      01:14pm | 02/11/09

      I look forward to reading a Punch article on this issue, quoted from today’s article:

      “Some of it, in all sincerity, is genuinely moving stuff, involving family court battles where a man who claims to have been wronged by his wife has lost all access to their children.”

    • Grant says:

      12:53pm | 02/11/09

      @ Mr David Penberthy

      I am initiating a slow clap, which will eventuate in a crescendo of fast clapping for you, way to go!!!  Your broad and sweeping generalisations and stereotypes on the very serious issues that affect men today are damaging.

      You need to take more responsibility when writing a piece like this as a person in your position when mass communicating to a very wide audience. 

      When you trivialise issues like this then you culturally communicate the sentiment to men that they should ‘harden up’, this can encourage the belief for example that men shouldn’t get a colonoscopy or they should never admit they have depression and not seek help because they don’t want to be viewed as soft.

      Statistically men have the highest number of problems relating to crime, physical health, mental health, education, suicide and life expectancy.  This is factual information and reporting available publicly from the Australian Bureau of Statistics and the Australian Institute of Criminology and does not support your assertions.

    • Helen says:

      12:28pm | 02/11/09

      I think we need a sarcasm font.

    • Dan says:

      12:15pm | 02/11/09

      hoofman, you’re kidding right? Hitler and Stalin? Yeh, they were real men. Right. Why would you want anyone to look up to them?

    • bec says:

      11:43am | 02/11/09

      I’ll settle for blokes like Henry Rollins and Eddie Vedder sitting down the disaffected men of today and telling them heartily to STFU. Manly, masculine men who care about more than just preserving their own privileges? I’ll give them a big hell-yeah as awesome male role models.

    • hoofman says:

      11:11am | 02/11/09

      Zeta: John Wayne and Charlton Heston? Pah! They were just actors, limp wristed denizens of the den of iniquity in Hollywood. No, men need real men of action to look up to. Real leaders. Men who worked out what had to be done and went all out for it, even if it meant risking everything. I refer of course to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Alexander, Genghis Khan and Hannibal. That’s who the men of today need to look up to.

    • Dan says:

      10:39am | 02/11/09

      Zeta, John Wayne and Chalton Heston were both hyper-right wing, and I don’t think that either were wonderful male role models. I certainly wouldn’t look towards them as role models, although their films were terrific. Cary Grant on the other hand.

    • Kelly says:

      10:33am | 02/11/09

      Richard, I would hate to think of a ‘misogyny’ being used for any personal disagreement with a woman. Although I accept what your saying that people could and do mis-use it.
      It’s a word I take very seriously, and would never use lightly. Luckily, I might add, it’s not something I’ve seen amongst many of my male colleagues, friends, and family.
      My definition? Men who hold women in contempt for being women. Men who seek to repress women, be it in work, relationships or life in general. Men who believe women have a place in society that’s not of equal importance as their own, and become extremely agitated at the though of women exceeding…

    • Peter says:

      10:33am | 02/11/09

      “needs a Bex and a good lie down”  ...can’t you think of a better line? Bex is carcinogenic and causes renal failure.

      p.s. it should not be forgotten that 1 per 100 cases of breast cancer are in men.

    • Zeta says:

      10:19am | 02/11/09

      These guys just need better role models, role models that tell them to stop whinging and say yes, life can be confusing sometimes and women are strange, alien creatures; but thinking about it is for weak people. Role models that say - ‘When life knocks your teeth out, spit them in life’s eyes’.

      We need to defrost John Wayne’s head and rally around it as an icon of masculinity. When Charlton Heston died, I think a piece of global manhood died with him, and we don’t have anything in its place. If only science could bring John Wayne back, we’d have a chance of fighting against the tide of suckholes who are one more day in Family Court away from burning their buisness ties in the streets.

      I’m terrified that a whole generation of boys is looking up to that sparkling dude from Twilight as a role model. They’re the next generation of skirt hugging whiners, who will hit their 20s and suddently start tweeting about the injustice of being a man.

    • Richard says:

      10:16am | 02/11/09

      Kelly, the trouble with “misogyny” is that it is a word like “racism”, ie often used as a term of abuse and simply to seek to silence someone the user disagrees with.  Some women, for example, will use “misogyny” to describe any disagreement with the more extreme manifestations of the feminist movement, or any criticism of the behaviour of any woman anywhere in any circumstances.  Your definition would be helpful.

    • Tim says:

      09:53am | 02/11/09

      There is a lot more logical reasoning in DG’s post above than in this whole article combined.

    • Kelly says:

      09:51am | 02/11/09

      Well said RT.
      Eric, I’m not sure if I’m one of the ‘pro feminists’ you’re referring to, I don’t like misogyny in any form so, maybe that makes me one?
      Anyway, when anyone (male or female) is as angry and bitter as many of your posts would lead me to believe you are, I do wonder why.
      Please feel free to enlighten me?
      Otherwise, I might just go back to pitying you instead.

    • AdamC says:

      09:48am | 02/11/09

      This article, ostensibly about certain instances of gender antagonism, is actually about class. Specifically, it is about David’s contempt for working-class, white male machismo and the embittered tone this has taken on in recent years.  Being a gay, inner-city civil servant, I can understand having a distaste for whingeing male bogans. However, I don’t think it is so easy to dismiss some of the grievances.

      Social and economic changes in the last few decades have eroded the position of the working class man, both in the home and in the workforce. In particular, no fault divorce (and the cultural changes that occurred at the same time) reduced men’s status as family leaders. At the same time, economic liberalisation has led to greater casualisation and job insecurity in many traditionally male industries. These social and economic changes have benefited society (especially the latter) but changes create winners and losers. And it seems nasty and unfair to heap scorn upon the losers for being upset about their predicament

    • Richard says:

      09:42am | 02/11/09

      Some of this is of course true. There are clearly a small minority of angry, controlling men who regard their wives and children as personal property, any challenge to which is to be met with violent words or actions.  But the article lacks balance.  As someone with some professional experience in thsi area, can I suggest that there is equally a minority of women who are emotionally ruthless and who will use any weapon, including the children, to pursue their own selfish interests.  In amongst the angry controllers therefore, there are some men who are not - just men who have suffered horrendously at the hands of their wives, or ex-wives, and the Family Court.
      Speaking of unbalanced comments, Maggie Hall’s post provides an excellent example. For her, equal parenting is some dastardly plot by evil men’s groups, rather than a sensible recognition of the fact that a relationship with their father is strongly in the interests of children in most cases and should come before the mother’s selfish desires to, for example, move interstate to be with her new boyfriend (especially when you consider that it is the latter who, statistically is most likely to assault the children!).
      As for the breast cancer v prostate debate, the fact is that men have always been regarded as expendable in our society (eg “women and children first”), and the emphasis on breast cancer to the almost total exclusion of the disease which kills just as many men is simply another example of this.  Some even suggest, for example, that it is all really our own fault!  To put it bluntly, there is an expectation that men will die considerably earlier than women, so the diseases that kill men are just seen as a normal part of life, whereas the early death of a woman from disease is, quite rightly, seen as a tragedy.

    • Mort says:

      09:41am | 02/11/09

      Thank you for this article – it is a relief that not all men hate women as much as these groups.

      One of the most appalling strategies of these groups has been to successfully lobby for the closure of women’s domestic violence shelters. They actively support the abusers and undermine the attempts of the women to safely escape. They say that men suffer abuse too, but would much rather spend money grinding the women victims down in court than donate to setting up shelters for men. This says a lot about their mind set. It is not about offering positive welfare for vulnerable men but more about revenge and dismantling any opportunities and freedoms women have gained for themselves.

    • RT says:

      09:27am | 02/11/09

      Eric - when I say there was ‘no sign’ of censorship, it’s because you reacted to a mention of possible censorship and didn’t cite any cases where it’s occurred to you here.  By your own admission, there hasn’t been much, if any. Clearly The Punch is a tolerant outlet for your angry posts. Doesn’t stop you from being angry with The Punch though, apparently.
      You mention ‘the truth’. Any relationship between that and your posts is fleeting. You know, family breakdown occurs to a lot of men. Most of them manage to survive it without turning completely bitter and blaming the ex, the courts, the media, hell, the rest of the world for their situation. One day you might look in the mirror and wonder if you can join the rest of us.

    • DG says:

      09:26am | 02/11/09

      Illness :
      I can’t say that I’ve noticed men complaining about pink ribbon day and the likes. Personally I get more annoyed by the fact that most days you are accosted by some person trying to sell something or collect money for their favourite charity. Having said that, I’ll happily don the pink ribbon and the daffodil on their respective days - and probably others I can’t think of at the moment.

      Sport:
      Why is is suggested that women in administrative positions would have any effect on the behaviour of players when they are out on the town? If I suggest that this proposal is ridiculous, am I being sexist? Even if my opinion is based on the fact that these men KNOW that they are doing the wrong thing, but insist on doing it, hence women telling them not to do it wont actually change anything. Or perhaps the policy suggests that women on the board will somehow reject their duty to the club and instead behave unprofessionally (ie. neglecting their duty to act in the best interests of the Club they are managing/directing) in pursuing other social goals - and releasing private information to the public at large?

      Management:
      Does the rebuttal of statistics equal ‘sexism’? Does the raising of reasons for variance in statistics equal ‘sexism’? Does the observation that some people elect to stay at home rather than working equal sexism? (and if it does, is it a matter that can be blamed on employers and public policy or should it, rightly in my opinion, be considered as a decision between the parent(s) of the child). Does the observation that the efficacy of a change happening 20 years ago, will not yet be completely apparent when considering that people spend 40+0 years in their career (i.e it would take at least 40 years to see the results at the ‘end’ of the cycle)

      Crime:
      Does the rebuttal of statistics on crime constitute sexism? Questioning whether the discrepancy between allegations and convictions is the result of false allegations or poor prosecution (both are viable interpretations of the statistics. Why do we assume that the person making the allegation is telling the truth - when there is no evidence to support the allegation? Is this scepticism “sexism” at work or an understanding of logic and statistics?

      Family Law:
      People that are basing their opinions on anecdotal evidence are guilty of a logical fallacy but that hardly equates with sexism. i.e Joe Bloggs feel that he has been discriminated against by the Family Court because he is male. He bleats that the system has failed him and is sexist - understandable and, in my opinion, not an example of sexism. His mates hear about it, as do others in similar circumstances - and they join together in their claim of discrimination (again, in my opinion not sexism). People then start saying “lots of men” are being disadvantaged (based on the information that they have at hand) - is that “sexism” or people who feel the system is biased screaming to be heard? The fact that it was all based on one person’s logical fallacy perhaps supports the assumption that this is not linked to ‘sexism’, but to a feeling of injustice.

      Having said that there are protagonists on this site (both male and female) that try to make every debate one about gender - both men and women are guilty of playing the gender game. The heading and tone of this piece are a perfect examples - a summary of this article could be considered as “some men post comments that are, in our opinion, unfair to women. We consider censoring these whiners”. While completely true, does it acknowledge that some women participate in the same manner or is its goal to be divisive? More likely, it is known that an article about gender will get lots of hits - lots of hits equals advertising dollars….

      The use of ‘sexism’ to describe anyone who disagrees with proposals made under the banner of “gender equality” is just as lazy as using “xenophobic” to describe opponents of the “boat people”. Both are deliberately emotive and are intended to ignore the ‘real’ motive that a person has for their opinion. Simply put, it’s an ad hominem argument. It is possible to disagree with policy proposed on ‘humanitarian’ grounds while supporting those same humanitarian goals.

    • Eric says:

      09:18am | 02/11/09

      I don’t suppose any of you pro-feminist types have ever spent a minute or two wondering *why* so many men are angry?

      The answers are out there.

    • Liz says:

      09:08am | 02/11/09

      A sad reflection on what really goes on in our land of opportunity and equality.Many men,not just ‘loners’ sat in front of their PC’s inhabit a different space and have no idea how to conduct a relationship,commit,negotiate,compromise, share duties and be a family man.Could go on but I’m sure someone else will….

    • Tim Dunlop says:

      09:03am | 02/11/09

      Good piece, Penbo.  Only thing I’d add is that the sort of ott comments you mention are not limited to, or soley caused by, posts about woman-related issues.  As someone who has run a number of blogs, including one for News Ltd, I’ve seen firsthand the stream of vindictive, venom-laced bilge that comes pouring into comments boxes and it is of a character with what you describe here.

      Those who mock you for umming and arring over whether to allow such comments through have never had to deal with the issue, the sheer volume of such comments, and try and balance the competing claims of allowing people to speak against the sheer idiocy and hatefulness of the way some people express themselves.

      My approach was always to err on the side of openness, to play the long game and hope that by giving people a place to speak they might eventually temper the way they said things.  But I’m not convinced it was the right approach.  It is not censorship to maintain a level of civility in public discourse.

    • Kelly says:

      08:57am | 02/11/09

      Thank you for this article David.
      @ dan - I hope what you’re saying is true about most blokes. I definitely thought that was the case with the majority of aussie guys, but the Eric’s of the online world have since made me question whether that’s the case!

    • Cristy says:

      08:40am | 02/11/09

      Great article.
      Thank you.

    • Helen says:

      08:29am | 02/11/09

      Great article, David. (And yes I forgive you for quoting Martin Amis wink ) This kind of thing is much discussed in the feminist blogosphere but is generally howled down or trivialised in the mainstream media. It’s a breath of fresh air to see this topic given such calm and sensible treatment in a forum like this, where all too often it’s given “Battle of Teh Sexes LOL” tabloid treatment. And you stayed away from the faux-scientific “evolutionary psychology” stuff, too. Kudos!

    • Tim says:

      08:10am | 02/11/09

      Wow Dave,
      did you write this after having a few too many schooners?

    • Eric says:

      08:07am | 02/11/09

      RT. Of course there’s no sign that any of my posts have been censored. That’s the whole point of censorship—to make things disappear. Logic isn’t your strong point, is it?

      In practice, about 20% of my comments go down the memory hole. These often seem to be random deletions, though there is a tendency to censor comments in which I respond to personal abuse or provide links to back up my points.

      This, plus the editor’s revelation that Punch staff spend a lot of time umming and ahhing about whether to permit dissident views, leads me to believe that there are a lot more people concerned about men’s rights than we actually get to see.

      Thankfully the Internet lets us find a way around media censorship, and so the truth can gradually be heard.

    • Anonymous Woman says:

      08:04am | 02/11/09

      Thank you for finally addressing this. I love reading different opinions on how best to address gender inequality (in all its forms) but the problem is that the end goal needs to be just that, equality. Unfortunately some people do not share that goal, or think that actually working towards equality rather than “just letting it happen” is somehow counterproductive. The fact is that equality has never “just happened”, it has been fought for, put into law, and regulated. Many men (and women, for that matter) take the position that if you acknowledge gender inequality, you’re already discriminating. I call it being realistic. I have felt sexism in many different ways including employment discrimination, sexual harassment, and sexual violence.

      That people can make comments which fly in the face of all known statistics to claim that there isn’t a problem should be laughable, but for me it simply means that one more guy will have an excuse when he hits his wife or intimidates a 15-year-old girl when she wears shorts in Summer.

      When I come to a website to read about opinions on these problems, and see only people claiming that women are the cause of all problems and should stop whingeing because we’re already equal, it only makes me realise how unequal things still are.

      Yes, there is discrimination against men in some circumstances - but that is all part of sexism and assumptions made about how someone should act if they’re born with a certain type of genitalia. Addressing sexism as a whole through pragmatic action which acknowledges the realities of the world helps everyone - male, female, hermaphrodite and transgender - to realise their potential as human beings, rather than as labels.

    • RT says:

      07:57am | 02/11/09

      Eric at 7:28am sounds off against censorship even though there is no sign that any of it has been applied to his often bitter, curmudgeonly posts on The Punch. And neither should there be. It is better to let the Erics of the blogosphere post their tripe out there, ripe for rebuttal.

    • iansand says:

      07:46am | 02/11/09

      I think all these oppressed men should spend a few weeks in the forest howling.

      Good.  That’s got rid of them for a while.  Now the rest of us can have a sensible conversation.

    • Germaine says:

      07:09am | 02/11/09

      It’s easy to send up the extreme end of the rather small and disorganised “mens movement”.

      It would be even easier and much funnier to send up the pretentious end of the range of self-appointed spokespersons from the large industry now dealing with womens’ issues.  But that would be attacked as politically, er, inappropriate, so it won’t happen.

    • Andrew Phillips says:

      07:09am | 02/11/09

      Nothing like good old fashioned journalism full of sweeping generalisations.

      I’m not siding with the whiners as I am the first to admit that Australian men can unwittingly be sexist (I know that’s a generalisation in itself). However, I know people who have gone through family court and it would be a naive person who did not agree that the Australian family court automatically favours the female - presumably through some outdated misconception that deems women are better carers than men (or is it just another sweeping generalisation?).

    • dan says:

      06:33am | 02/11/09

      Yeah read this article in the Australian over the weekend and didn’t get it. All the blokes I know couldn’t give a rats about the sort of stuff you’re talking about and are happy to see women do whatever they want, and just get on with it.

    • Eric says:

      06:28am | 02/11/09

      “We spend a large part of our day umming and ahing as to whether we will publish the comments from these angry blokes who slot into the above categories.”

      Ah, censorship—the first resort of the cowardly journalist. No wonder the mainstream media are losing readers.

      How about educating yourself instead?

    • Dan says:

      06:22am | 02/11/09

      Putting aside the fact that you quoted Martis Amis, I do agree that some men do create problems of their own making, although I disagree with one of the examples you listed.

      The reason breast cancer receives more attention than prostate cancer is simply because women are more proactive when it comes to getting help. They don’t delay going to the doctor and they have never had any hesitation in raising money for breast cancer. There is no reason why we can’t have a Blue Ribbon Day or why prostate cancer can be made ‘sexy’. But men just don’t seem as determined as women. Movember seems to be changing it, but I do think it’s disappointing that men’s cancers don’t get the attention of women’s cancers. Hopefully it’ll change, but if it does, it’ll be because men take the lead. What is curious is why the AFL/NRL don’t do something. Maybe because the still have that ‘if we don’t think of prostate cancer it won’t hurt me’ mentality.

      The example I disagree with is that of Matthew Johns. While I don’t want to go over old ground, I disagree that he (and Brendan Fevola) needs to experiment with acting human. He was never charged with a crime, and as far as I’m concerned he did nothing wrong. Some might have a moral problem with it, but morality is personal, and in this case, subjective.

      There are actually two dangers posed by your way of thinking. While you dismiss the ‘angry man’, you ignore that there ARE men with problems, men who ARE victims, and that suicide rates for men are higher than that of women. Additionally, there are women who overplay the victim card, such as, I would suggest, in the Matthew Johns episode.

      While this is not to suggest that MEN ARE VICTIMS, labelling or implying that any gender are victims is counter-productive. Certainly, acting like an ‘angry man’ (or woman) is completely unhelpful and won’t get us anywhere.

    • Maggie Hall says:

      06:06am | 02/11/09

      Your comment:
      These groups certainly exist in Australia. That they have real political power is evidenced by the recent radical changes to Family Law where a presumption has been introduced that both parents should have equal time with children. This flies in the face of reality ( women still being the primary caregiver in most cases) and creates difficult situations with children just trying to get on with their lives but with frequent moves between two households to contend with. Not to mention increased difficulty in getting courts to recognise domestic and family violence.
      There is an urgent need for attention to the corrosive impact Iron John type men’s groups have had on Family Law.

    • bec says:

      06:03am | 02/11/09

      Countdown to Eric launching into a frothy-spittled tirade about how ZOMGoppressed he is in three, two, one…

 

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