One sunny afternoon I was coming out of Sydney’s Redfern Station and a woman with a child asked me for money. I felt so sorry for her that I gave her my last 5 bucks. Feeling self-satisfied at my generosity, I walked away with a smile on my face. Then something strange happened. She yelled out sarcastically, “Thanks, you … slut”.

Fine, but let's have some ground rules

Up until this point I’d always thought I’d given money to “beggars” unconditionally –  certainly I’d always shouted down people who moralised that “they will only spend it on drugs and alcohol”. But with her insult, something inside me snapped.

Marching back up to her I demanded my money back. She told me to “f… off” as I proceeded to give her a lecture on begging etiquette. My view, which I proceeded to ram down her throat with some equally colourful language, was that she should be polite to me because I gave her the last of my money.

I reckon this story raises an important question, particularly for those of us living in cities of haves and have-nots: are there really rules that should be applied to the practice of asking for and giving money?

I really want an answer to this because in my experience the whole exchange is at the very least an uncomfortable one and sometimes can be downright shameful. I polled some mates and they all had stories that ranged from the vaguely embarrassing to the exquisitely awkward and the just plain wrong.

One gave an obviously homeless man $20 without prompting. He not only refused the money but told her condescendingly not to “patronise” him.

Another who’s particularly shy and reserved finally had enough with one of the regulars at her local shops because the woman insisted on giving long-winded explanations for why she needed the cash that my mate always doled out. The time she got fed up was when the beggar banged on about the fact that it was her birthday. My friend gave her some funds but finally got up the courage to point out she wasn’t the least bit interested in the beggar’s lame explanations.

And while living in New York yet another, a leading social commentator who’s often been attacked for her ‘bleeding heart’ views, once literally stepped over a woman and her children camped outside her apartment building in the freezing snow – a woman whom she had over a period of time given several hundred dollars to.

While she had always handed over the cash before, this time something allowed my mate to just ignore the woman’s plight. She simply went up to her cosy flat, made dinner, and lay down in her warm bed.

I used to think there were two types of people in the world: those who gave money to beggars and arseholes. But maybe people’s reactions to beggars, and the motivations behind them, aren’t so clear cut.

So let’s put the shame, fear, guilt and defensiveness behind us and draw up a list of rules we can all agree on to make begging a more comfortable experience for everyone. I’m going to kick it off then it’s over to you to come up with your own suggestions.

1. If you are begging, don’t give long-winded excuses as to why you need money. People are often very busy going to their well-remunerated jobs. Just politely ask for what you want.
2. It’s not our business what the beggar is going to spend the money on. As if you haven’t got on the piss with your wages or bought yet another pair of shoes you don’t need. In other words, give with good grace and unconditionally.
3. If you are a beggar without talent do not sing or play a musical instrument badly to attract money. Simply put out a sign saying “No talent. Please give generously”.
4. Smile and make eye contact with your beggar but don’t give them patronising looks. They don’t need your pity, just your cash.
5. Even if you think the guy that gave you some money was a condescending arsehole, hold your tongue. No-one likes a smart-arse.

I reckon another 5 will do it. I’m guessing beggars don’t have the access to computers that we do so they mightn’t be reading this. I’m prepared to photocopy the list and stick it up in Central Station tunnel if you’re prepared to help me finish it.

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124 comments

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    • BTS says:

      06:14am | 10/03/10

      Ok I have had occasion to be acquainted with some beggars in my time.

      With reference to the $20 and the patronising…some ‘homeless’ people are actually quite wealthy and choose to live that way.  As bizarre as that sounds, I know of two men in the Far North who appear homeless, but are independently wealthy.  Yes, it’s true!

      I was in Hawaii and a beggar came up to me and asked for five dollars.  I said sorry mate. He replied: ‘How about 17, 32, 65 hut hut!’

      I wish I had given him money now.

      6. Don’t expect that you will get $10.00 the next day when I walk past you, or they day after that, I am not a charity…ummm so to speak.  Looking at me mournfully the second day, won’t help either.

    • Sam says:

      06:20am | 10/03/10

      Spare us your middle class guilt. Don’t give anything to beggars. Help them if you wish, but don’t just hand over money to assuage your guilt.

    • DocBud says:

      06:51am | 10/03/10

      What is middle class guilt? What a dumb, meaningless expression.

      Why not hand over money? They’ve asked for money, so if you’re willing, give them some. How else are you going to help them?

    • BTS says:

      07:19am | 10/03/10

      Thanks for sharing your positive outlook on life Sam!

      You’re only here once. You might as well make sure you are miserable the whole ride.

    • wk says:

      09:05am | 10/03/10

      People like Sam are what we don’t need more of in this city…Regardless of what ‘class’ he belongs to.

    • Bitten says:

      09:08am | 10/03/10

      DocBud, my understanding is that the term ‘middle class guilt’ refers to a state when a person who is reasonably well-educated, employed and well remunerated feels guilty about being so and is therefore prone to feeling just terrible about poor people who aren’t in the same position. In an effort to rid themselves of their ‘guilt’ they give money to complete strangers and buy ribbons for causes. Their motivation is not that they genuinely want to give generously to charity, but that they feel guilty over not being poor/homeless/starving in sub-Saharan Africa. So they try to buy their way out of feeling guilty.

      Others may have a different interpretation but this is what I understand ‘middle class guilt’ to mean.

    • Sean says:

      09:18am | 10/03/10

      I’m with Sam. Beggars should get off their asses and find work. Our Centrelink system is generous enough. I give to charities where I know it will be spent properly not to some lazy ass on the street, who’s problems are most likely self inflicted.

    • DocBud says:

      09:38am | 10/03/10

      Thanks, Bitten, though I can’t for the life of me understand why I should feel guilty. 

      You are so right, Sean, these people choose to get bipolar or have significant learning difficulties and then come to us for help because they can’t deal with the system, disgusting moochers.

    • Sean says:

      10:17am | 10/03/10

      DocBud, most of the beggars I’ve seen have drug and/or alcohol problems which in my mind is a self inflcted problem. My grandfather was a drunk who begged on the streets when he wasn’t mooching off relations or beating up my grandma, so excuse me if I have little sympathy.

    • H of SA says:

      11:26am | 10/03/10

      @ Sean 11:17AM

      transference /trans·fer·ence/ (trans-fer´ens) in psychotherapy, the unconscious tendency to assign to others in one’s present environment feelings and attitudes associated with significance in one’s early life, especially the patient’s transfer to the therapist of feelings and attitudes associated with a parent.

      Nor everyone on the street is like your Grandad

    • MelD says:

      02:45pm | 12/03/10

      I’m with Sam, I feel no guilt that I have a job or that I live at home with my parents and so therefore have more to spend at the end of each fortnight for that pair of shoes I don’t need (although I only own 2 pairs of heels, 1 pair of thongs and a pair of sneakers and only get new ones when the old ones fall apart) I don’t even give to charity.

      My philosophy is I like my money the way it is, mine.

    • Francois says:

      07:14am | 10/03/10

      i give a few coins here and there but prefer offering to buy a sandwich or value meal from maccas…. and for some reason it never gets the same response as handing over coin!

    • Joel says:

      08:25am | 10/03/10

      I agree Francois. I stopped giving to those who asked (having previously been very generous) after the time I decided I wouldn’t give money to a man near Haymarket who was quite clearly (still) under the influence at 3pm. Instead, I went to a nearby convenience store and bought a pre-packaged sandwich and orange juice to give the man. Neither may have been to his particular taste but it was nutritious and well-intentioned. He quite literally threw it back at me, along with an accompanying tirade.

      Never again.

    • BTS says:

      09:41am | 10/03/10

      Just make sure it’s not a peanut butter sandwich, for all our sakes.

    • DaKota MarQuette says:

      02:55am | 14/04/10

      100% TRUE Francois…I would rather help that way as well. It seems that the cash or rather the private ownership of doing for themselves with other peoples money is what they really want. I feel that my money should feel the immediate need right before my eyes. It’s good to know where your money is going!

    • Peter says:

      07:32am | 10/03/10

      Bullshit.  There are no real beggars in Australia, just people who are druggies or who should be in mental institutions (but aren’t because of Labor’s “progressive” views).  Both groups require institutionalisation, not street cash.

      The Australian welfare system is generous enough for those who are genuine.  All the others are fakes.

    • Nathan says:

      03:13pm | 10/03/10

      I have to say I agree. It’s the mentally ill beggars I feel sorry for, because it is one of the very few times ‘we’ are failing them’. There is just so much welfare out there it’s ridiculous, and access to public housing is being retarded by the long-term hopeless who can’t (our fault) or won’t (their fault) become financially independant.

      http://www.amazon.com/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclass/dp/1566633826

      http://www.taxcheck.com.au/

      The second link should open your eyes as to how much you already give to the less fortunate.

    • Texas Millionaire says:

      07:35am | 10/03/10

      It is a law of science that beggers can’t be choosers and it beggars belief that a begger might complain when they don’t get what they beg for. Me, I likes to give them my rubbish, so they can perform a civic duty and put it in the bin for me. Makes them feel like they’re contributing to society. Sometimes I even sign it in the form of an IOU with a 10 year expiration date. It drives them nuts when they realise that it will take a decade for the promise to yield fruit. I might also consider giving some of my hard earned to someone who sings a few ditties… but only if they can pull off a no-repeat work day.

      No-one ever gave me nothing for free and I intend to return the favour.

    • Brad says:

      10:01am | 10/03/10

      Texas Millionaire, you are truly a poor excuse for a human being

    • Jimbo says:

      10:09am | 10/03/10

      I don’t think beggars get anything for free. They pay a price having to put up with pretentious pricks like you every day!
      As to the list I would add:
      *Beggars, don’t try and negotiate a coin donation upgrade to a note. i’ll give what I’m comfortable with!
      *Givers, give only what your comfortable with. Nothing saps a giving spirit faster than ‘buyer’s regret’

    • Charles Kelly says:

      02:13pm | 11/03/10

      That a load of crap Jimbo. Beggars DO NOT have to “put up with pretentious pricks” like Texas Millionaire as you said. They have a choice. They can choose not to impose themselves onto others, or they can choose to deliberately separate complete strangers from their money through numerous nefarious means. Should they chose the latter, it’s perfectly within the rights of Texas Millionaire or anyone else to treat them like the scum they are. Unfortunately the rest of us have no such choice where it comes to putting up with ignorant pricks like you.

    • Tim says:

      08:19am | 10/03/10

      I carry a taser with me everywhere i go.
      There is nothing so enjoyable as seeing the reprobate who has just me for money go flying 10 foot backwards.
      And that’s not to mention my midnight drive by’s in winter with a fire extinguiser.
      Some times I even give them a dollar afterwards, just for being good sports.

    • BTS says:

      09:41am | 10/03/10

      Flying 10 feet backwards?

      Mythbusters might have proved you watch too many movies Tim.

    • Tim says:

      09:58am | 10/03/10

      BTS,
      Its not the taser that makes them go flying 10 feet backwards, its the force that I hit them with it. The 50,000 volts is just an added bonus.

    • Joe says:

      10:25am | 10/03/10

      Agree with BTS here and Tim, one can only hope you are arrested soon for your indiscriminate attacks on the homeless and possession of an illegal weapon, especially since you just confessed to it publicly.

    • DocBud says:

      11:44am | 10/03/10

      I’m guessing Tim is about 12 years old, has significant self-esteem issues and would run a mile if a homeless person said “boo” to him.

    • Tim says:

      02:35pm | 10/03/10

      I’m guessing that DocBud is not even your real name.
      In fact i’m guessing that you’re not even a real doctor.
      Boo? what do you think homeless people are, ghosts?

    • BTS says:

      03:12pm | 10/03/10

      I am guessing Tim sucked both of you in.

    • charm says:

      07:12pm | 14/03/10

      Hey tim, hope your nose doesn’t grow to long. Sounds like you have a very vivied imagenation. How about you go back to broken hill where you will be understood, & can tell tall tales in the local. All the best son.

    • Dean says:

      08:17am | 10/03/10

      Why not just subscribe to the ‘Big Issue’? One of the better mags around and achieves a greater purpose - providing a solution to homelessness and allows both the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ to feel positive and valued. Why not strike up a relationship with your vendor and make it a regular thing?

    • guida says:

      12:45pm | 10/03/10

      oh pulease, everyone knows that “Big Issue” is a waste of trees: contains no news, good or bad & doesnt assist anyone except the people that print the sap.  (my local BI vendor has been at it for years).
      The best way to feel positive & valued is to do something positive for yourself & then you can value your own initiative.
      Tell the beggers to kick themselves up their own bee hind

    • H of SA says:

      12:57pm | 10/03/10

      Not true, in a past job I interviewed the head of big issue in Australia around the homeless world cup (run by the international street press). Some of the players there got professional contracts in Europe after the tournament. From homeless to pro sportsman in the highest paying code of all, pretty good I reckon.

      Also my regular vendors used to tell me how much they appreciated the social interaction they got from talking to their customers - being shunned and all generally.

    • Zeta says:

      08:23am | 10/03/10

      There is this one guy in the city who claims to be a time traveler, and he needs money to repair his time machine to get back to the 1970s. He’s a spectacular human prototype. Huge, bearded, perpetually filthy, but with the noble gleam in the eye of the urban barbarian. He knows I’m always good for a fiver, and a cigarette. Last time I saw him he thanked me for assisting the repairs to his ‘device’, but said after a quick sojourn back to the time of his birth he’s had to return to prevent an assassination attempt against Gough Whitlam.

      I’ve not seen him since and I hope he and Gough Whitlam have survived.

      I don’t like people’s attitudes to beggars. How is what we’d spend the money on any different to what they’d spend the money on? Your average beggar really might blow his cash on a gram of junk, but is that really any different to spending it on things we don’t need? And a lot of them might be able to get welfare payments, but they’re seriously mentally ill and the streets are the only place that makes sense to them.

    • DocBud says:

      09:54am | 10/03/10

      You might have helped Doctor Who, Zeta,

      Joking apart, I’m with you 100% on your last paragraph. The “I won’t give you money but will give you a sandwich and juice” approach is so sanctimonious and controlling. People need to let others live as they choose and be less judgemental. I don’t care what beggars spend my money on, once I’ve given it, it is no longer mine. Though I see from Super D below that choosing to do what I want with my money and handing to an adult to dispose of as they choose should see me hauled up before the beak. Unbelievable.

    • Vicki PS says:

      05:00pm | 10/03/10

      Your usual cheeful common sense, Zeta!

      I’ve never felt guilty about not giving to a beggar—it really depends on whether I feel like it at the time, and how broke I am myself.  (But when I was a smoker I could never refuse a request for a fag).  However, there are three kinds I would never fling a groat to:
      a)  teenagers in school uniform who “lost their train fare and need to ring Mum”
      b)  the “no job, 5 kids to feed” bludgers
      c)  the pathetic WWF koala.

      Otherwise, if I do hand over some cash, I do so with the full awareness that I’ll never know where the money was spent. 

      But, having had my mentally ill, drug addicted teenage daughter living on the street on and off for years, I can at least imagine that someone might have done the same for her sometime.  Even if the cash didn’t buy a meal or a few fags, it might have meant she didn’t rob someone else that time.

    • Carrie Miller says:

      04:48am | 11/03/10

      Zeta, where does the guy with the time machine usually hang out. I want to meet him. Maybe he could take me back to the Whitlam era when people were a bit more tolerant of the have-nots in this country!

    • MelD says:

      02:54pm | 12/03/10

      Zeta, the difference is I EARNED my money, they did not, so if I want to piss MY money away on ciggies or the odd drink or DVD then that is my right as I worked hard for my pay.

      They however do not, they sit around with their cardboard signs, or try to push their kids in your face and give you some sob story, I don’t like kids at the best of times, why should I car about some homeless persons spawn?

    • julia says:

      08:31am | 10/03/10

      I don’t give money to Australian beggars. There’s a very good social welfare - govenrment and private sector - system in place to help them. I pay taxes and that’s enough for me.

      However, there was a guy who used to hang around Newtown near the war memorial on King Street. My then boyfriend (now husband) had freshly squeezed orange juice delivered. I gave him one from time to time. At least he’d get his vitamins.

    • SLF says:

      08:32am | 10/03/10

      Don’t agree on point 3.

      Beggars who simply sit there with a sign are kind of fulfilling their own prophecy. Cant be bothered to do anything but give me cash. I will only give to beggars who attempt to entertain, no matter how badly as they are at least trying to do something witht heir limited talents.

      If you really want to see a beggars true reasoning… when they ask for money for food don’t give it to them, instead go an buy a nice healthy sandwich and hand that over…..they are never that hungry, indeed their hunger is usually for something else…

    • Kate says:

      08:42am | 10/03/10

      People need to accept the fact that each gives / contributes in their own way.

      Before going to India on a family holiday we donated $500 to a local Indian charity that works with homeless people. We ensured the charity was reputable. This then enabled us to enjoy our holiday without the moral struggles - we knew we had made a contribution and therefore didn’t feel guilty for not donating money each time we were asked by an eager child.

      By saying no to a beggar it doesn’t mean that you are an “arsehole”, it could also mean that you are contributing in other ways.

    • George says:

      08:58am | 10/03/10

      Don’t give money to ‘street beggars’ full stop!  Poverty and homelessness in state and territory capital cities is often enough’ by choice’.

      Those who part with their hard earned money to give to these lazy bums are gullible dupes, middle class or otherwise!  I mean beggars in Redfern aaaaawwww c’mon, no money for food but plenty of it for booze and drugs! 

      I worked in a building just in front of the soup kitchen Our Lady of the Snow on Belmore Park for 15 years, guess what even on a cold winter morning there’s hardly a queue of pan handlers there having a feed but plenty ih bottle shops around the area.

    • Super D says:

      09:22am | 10/03/10

      I pay taxes that fund welfare.  I give to certain charities (that don’t employ young extroverts to harass people).  I do not give to street beggars.  I never have.  I never will. 

      There are two beggars who have asked me for money at least 50 times each over a period of years in a variety of locations.  One of them seems to only be on the streets during the summer months.  My assumption is that he winters in Noosa spending everyone else’s hard earned cash.

      As far as I’m concerned its like feeding pigeons or rats - it only leads to an increase in the population.  Giving to beggars should be a criminal offense in the same way that soliciting a prostitute is.

    • eye4aneye says:

      01:26pm | 10/03/10

      I agree 100%

      Best response ever heard given to a beggar:

      beggar: got any spare cash?
      begee: Yep shitloads thanks (as he continues walking)

    • J says:

      09:39am | 10/03/10

      So parting with your last $5 Carrie, and according to an article previously, you pay late on your rent?  Nice.

      I assume the previous blog was hyperbole.

      I don’t give to beggars.  I have a few charities that I donate to when I can, and my work has a charity that I get involved in (this week we’re having a bake sale, I’ve volunteered as a baker).

      I remember waiting for a friend once outside her work and a man approached some guys at the bus stop.  He asked for some money to get some food, and one of the guys said that there was a place where he could get some free food for people in his circumstances just down the street.

      The beggar’s response?  “Oh, that food isn’t very good…”

      Beggars can’t be choosers.

      Glad you enjoy the view from the warm and fuzzy moral high-ground, Carrie.  Personally, in the 6 years I’ve lived in Sydney I see the same bloody beggar on Market Street every morning, head bowed, sign asking for bus fares and haircut money.  Either he’s not managing his money properly, or he needs to seriously rethink his strategy.  He can have some of my money if he wants.  He’s going to have to approach the Salvos to get it, though.

    • N says:

      09:44am | 10/03/10

      I don’t give money to beggars, why? Simple, this is Australia, a welfare country. I pay 10% GST on virtually everything, my company pays approx 30% tax, and then I get taxed 45% on personal income. I think those of us off to our “well-remunerated jobs”, understand this fact, hence our “arseholish” nature towards these people; unfortunates by their own doing.

    • BTS says:

      09:45am | 10/03/10

      People!

      The article was about finishting the beggar’s etiquette…

    • Jake says:

      09:58am | 10/03/10

      Here’s a rule; Whilst asking for money, allow at least 100cm of space between yourself and the recipient. Also no begging in deserted lane-ways etc, or begging with a partner.
      Anything that intimidates, is not begging its foreplay to mugging.

    • Tim says:

      10:05am | 10/03/10

      6. Only ask the same person for money once per day. There is nothing worse when on my seventh smoko break or fifth coffee run for the day getting asked by the same beggar for money. (exclusions - if you can manage to significantly change your attire in between or change venue it is acceptable to ask more than once. However stalking high payers is discouraged.)

    • AFR says:

      03:46pm | 10/03/10

      You could always cut back on the smokes and coffees? smile

    • Carrie Miller says:

      04:46am | 11/03/10

      Yeah Tim, I reckon this one’s fair enough too. Although I guess it’s hard to keep track of who you’ve asked. But I agree that once a day is a fair rule. This one’s going up too.

    • formersnag, charity worker & tough lover. says:

      07:38am | 11/03/10

      Dear Carrie Miller, i am seriously miffed that you missed my rule suggestion, but won’t abuse you for not “feeding my addiction”.

    • Nick says:

      10:08am | 10/03/10

      Beggars etiquette #7 - Get your act together, clean up and get a job. Talk to me when you’re a productive member of society instead of a leech.

    • DocBud says:

      10:10am | 10/03/10

      Is it just my computer or has Carrie’s profile lost a few articles?

      I did previously suggest that Carrie might be writing her own cardboard sign one day:

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/home-ownership-is-a-trick-being-played-on-you/

      Maybe that’s why she’s so keen to get the beggar’s etiquette sorted out.

      I suggest for number 6, don’t harras people. Ordinarily, I’d have assumed that only applied to the beggars, but reading some of the comments above from Texas Millionaire and Tim suggests it applies both ways.

    • Steve says:

      10:20am | 10/03/10

      The Woman outside Redfern takes turns to switch with a semi-blind man so that the two “most sorry looking” people are begging for money all the time.

      Once enough it collected someone comes over and takes the money to a group of kids who run down Lawson st to the shops at the end or the pub to buy cigarettes or booze. They bring it back and distribute the goods and all this time the person doing the begging doesn’t have to move (eg loose potential money).

      Congratulations, you got scammed….

    • H of SA says:

      10:35am | 10/03/10

      Here’s the thing.

      Often those begging are mentally Ill, so its fanciful to excpect them to follow the code of ettiquiete. Presumably part of the reason the beggars are begging is their inability to participate in mainstream society - presumably often due to mental illness.

      So with that preamble I propose:

      6. Instead of complaining to work colleagues, family ect about being confronted with the bizzare behaviour of a beggar - instead send an email to your local MP asking them why they voted for budgets that cut mental health services for the last decade or so (almost every state MP will have done this)

    • Carrie Miller says:

      11:29am | 10/03/10

      Now, that’s a good idea.

    • Gatchaman. says:

      12:16pm | 10/03/10

      Yes, many homeless are mentally ill, but I wouldn’t extend that to all beggars, (along with the assumption that all beggars are homeless). In my experience, certain groups expect you to give, and are quite arrogant about it, like they deserve it. One lady asked me for some money to buy a drink. I didn’t have change, so I offered her a burger I had just purchased, (untouched). She stuck her hand in the bag, rummaged around, then handed it back, asking if I had a coke - I directed her to one of the many nearby water fountains if she wanted a drink. Another guy just hung around hoping to embarrass me into giving him money after I had refused, (all the while his drunk mate was calling him). Now I might give to someone if they appear genuine at least. One guy gave the, “my car is out of fuel on the road” excuse, and I did have a pocketful of change that day, but then he was too stupid to go somewhere else to drink the booze he bought with it.

      Combined with the explosion of charity collectors that gather at doorways to shopping centres, etc. I’m getting fed up. It might be different if I had a greater income, but I am well below average in that respect.

    • Nathaniel says:

      10:40am | 10/03/10

      Good article.

      Only problem with the suggestions is that I doubt very many beggars would be spending the few dollars they are given on reading this article at their nearest internet cafe.

      Perhaps the employed need to start walking around with signs saying “If you ask us for money, we don’t want your life story.”

    • BTS says:

      03:17pm | 10/03/10

      Perhaps if you read the article:

      ‘I’m guessing beggars don’t have the access to computers that we do so they mightn’t be reading this. I’m prepared to photocopy the list and stick it up in Central Station tunnel if you’re prepared to help me finish it.’

    • mickey says:

      10:52am | 10/03/10

      STORY TIME:

      I always give money to homeless people, but I’m not exactly rolling in it and they’re lucky if I can give them a dollar in a single coin. One time there was this man asking around the busstop and everyone ignored him, but he was so polite and lovely that I gave him, literally, like $4!

      But then another time I was in the city, and this homeless man came up to me and asked me for some money. And for the life of me I couldn’t find my wallet in my bag. It’s not a very big bag either and I was standing there, legitimately, for five minutes fishing around for it. And this guy was just standing there like “YOU. ARE. WASTING. MY TIME.” I finally managed to find it and all I gave him was $1.70 in various change. I feel a bit bad about that.

      God it was awkward.

    • Sky says:

      01:33pm | 10/03/10

      hahaha very good mickey. I like the fact he said you are wasting my time.. Umm yeh sorry, my bad.. have you got somewhere to be?

      thanks for the laugh, nice work.
      Oh and im with most people here i earn my money so my view is so should everyone else. if you busk, you’re a chance, if you beg you get nothing.

    • Brian says:

      10:52am | 10/03/10

      most beggars are mentally ill, dont expect ‘normal’ repsonses from them and you wont be dissapointed

    • I_Exist says:

      11:01am | 10/03/10

      @ Carrie
      “Thanks, you … slut ” - I’m guessing she was a regular Punch reader!? BWAHAHHAHAAA. (I’m only joking!)

    • Kelly says:

      11:28am | 10/03/10

      One ‘beggar’ (do we have to term them thus? Couldn’t we just call them ‘hard up Australians looking for money?’) appealed to my sense of vanity by saying, ‘You look beautiful! Wouldn’t have $5 I could spare?’ I gave it to her because I like to be told I’m beautiful (be honest, you do too) and besides: I’m getting better return for that money than spending it on a trashy magazine or junk food, which was probably what I would have spent it on at the time. I get to feel good about myself and get a compliment in return - and after I gave her the money she gave me a hug. Win/win

    • BTS says:

      03:18pm | 10/03/10

      Kelly,

      If I tell you, you look beautiful, do you do money orders? wink

    • Charles Kelly says:

      08:34pm | 10/03/10

      You may have looked “beautiful” that day Kelly, but that’s not what the scheming con artist saw. It’s another word which sounds a little similar, but starts with a “g”. They prey on your kind.

    • jmac says:

      11:56am | 10/03/10

      they are shameless, most of them, in my opinion.

    • Ryan says:

      11:58am | 10/03/10

      There is a great T Shirt you can get.. it has the following printed on it, to avoid awkward conversation.  “Yes I have plenty of change in my pocket, thank you for asking you homless peice of shit”.

    • DocBud says:

      12:41pm | 10/03/10

      Can you buy one with the correct spelling and grammar or is the point to illustrate that anyone who would wear such a shirt is an ignorant piece of s@#t?

    • Ryan says:

      10:32pm | 10/03/10

      @DocBud: or just a trolling piece of s@#t who’s best retort is a spelling and grammar attack from someone who more than likely sits composing his pathetic drivel responses in word.

    • Ryan says:

      10:48pm | 10/03/10

      @DocBud: I take that back, reading my original post you are right, my spelling was atrocious.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      02:16pm | 11/03/10

      Really DocBud, “an ignorant piece of s@#t” you say? What, “an ignorant piece of s@#t” like someone who would leave out a comma after the word “grammar” when clearly one is required?

    • DocBud says:

      05:34pm | 11/03/10

      Modern usage would allow either, Charles, as the omission of the comma does not change the meaning of the sentence. However, a comma is most certainly required after “Really” in your comment.

    • Ryan says:

      12:29pm | 12/03/10

      @Charles Kelly: he means it doesn’t come up as a grammatical error when he checks it in Word.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      05:15pm | 12/03/10

      Yeah Ryan, I figured that. If this idiot genuinely believes that a comma isn’t necessary when joining two independent clauses in a sentence, then I guess “modern usage” must mean absolutely anything goes these days. Or perhaps it’s just that the rules of grammar apply to everyone else BUT sanctimonious hypocrites?

    • Craig Lambie says:

      12:16pm | 10/03/10

      I agree with the “Don’t give” people here.
      I am not sure about “Middle class guilt” but I am sure that Begging is not the answer to homeless people’s problems, and giving them money directly certainly will not help.

      If you really want to make a difference in there life, give money to the Salvos or similar charity, who can manage the direction of the money to ensure it is used to further the “beggar” along in their life, not hinder them moving away from drug and alcohol abuse and obviously they can’t manage their own money, or they probably wouldn’t be on the street.

      In Australia and the UK we have a wonderful welfare system which looks after almost all of the basic needs of most people, there might be a few that slip through the bureaucratic cracks, but they should be the first priority of the charities.  For example you probably can’t get Centrelink payments until you have an address, but you can’t get an address without money… vicious circle…. a good charity could offer homeless people support in A. getting an address B. Filling in the forms C. Getting paid D. Managing the money

      So to sum up: If you give money to homeless/ street people then you are encouraging this activity.  The more “generous” people there are in the world, the more people there will be to take that money.
      Give to Charity who can funnel the money where it is most needed, like feeding and sheltering those in need en-mass.

    • stephen says:

      12:32pm | 10/03/10

      Ettiquette @ 6,
      Praying is begging, so if yer go to church, don’t sneer. Just give.

    • Vicki PS says:

      05:05pm | 10/03/10

      Good point, Stephen!  “Ask and ye shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened to you”.

    • Greg says:

      03:25am | 11/03/10

      God helps those that help themselves.

    • Stephanie says:

      12:47pm | 10/03/10

      Can we also have etiquette rules for charity stands on the street?  We have had a charity stand near my local coffee shop for the past eight months.  The same guy is there every day and every day he yells out the same lame line of “come here with your bodyguard” (my baby).  Every day I smile politely and say no thanks. 
      I donate to the charities of my own choosing but what really gets me about this bloke is that he thinks he can embarass or shame people into donating.  He knows me and knows that I walk past every single day and yet he is a serial harrasser.
      what to do?

    • nic says:

      01:19pm | 10/03/10

      I think this is a bigger problem than the odd dero or faux dero.

    • H of SA says:

      03:20pm | 10/03/10

      There are laws around these things, if you keep walking they legally aren’t allowed to follow you more than 4 metres or so, just say sorry and when they keep talking you keep right on walking

    • Eric says:

      04:45pm | 10/03/10

      I’d suggest taking a day off work, and just standing next to the guy’s stand. Tell everyone he approaches what a jerk he is.

      A few hours (or even a few minutes) of that treatment should have him leaving you alone.

    • Whirlin' Dervish says:

      01:01pm | 10/03/10

      Thank goodness there are no ‘Liberal’ party hacks ‘contributing’ to public debate in forums like “The Punch”. Luckily for us there are plenty of ‘concerned citizens’ with sufficient free-time to ‘contribute’ to the public debate… on “The Punch”… all day… everyday! Imagine what it would be like if they were all replaced by ‘Liberal’ party stalwarts, coming out, flying their party’s true colours.; trying to turn ever article posted here into some sort of ‘ideological battleground’ for their poisonous, miserly weltanshauung.

    • Anthony says:

      01:06am | 11/03/10

      Uh, that post doesn’t make it look like it’s the Liberal hacks who are trying to turn unrelated articles into ideological battlegrounds…

    • Whirlin' Dervish says:

      01:02pm | 10/03/10

      In the cold grey dawn of modern political reality, I’m pretty sure those ‘Liberal’ party hacks would be left with no alternative other than to prop up and attack the straw-figure of Labor’s ‘socialist objective’. You remember the ‘socialist objective’? Adopted in 1921, immediately ‘watered down’ with the Blackburn declaration and qualified with; ‘in accordance with the principles of action, methods and progressive reforms set out in this platform’? The ‘socialist objective’ Bob Hawke declared to be ‘irrelevant’ way back in 1983? You remember Bob Hawke? He went on to be referred to as ‘the best liberal prime minister Australia has ever had’. But if the Labor party don’t consider ‘their socialist objective’ to be relevant, if they are more liberal, in and out of government, than the ‘Liberal’ party, where does that leave their opposition?

    • Whirlin' Dervish says:

      01:04pm | 10/03/10

      Thankfully the ‘Liberal’ party have never been riven by factionalism… except, of course, for the ‘Protectionists’ and the ‘Free Traders’… or the ‘Nationalists’…Oh! And the ‘United Australia Party’…then again there are ‘wets’ and, of course, ‘drys’… you get the idea? A solid, united block of ‘anti-Labor’ forces… at least they are all ‘for’ something… well, OK; it’s actually more that they are all ‘against’ something… Anyway, I guess the worst case scenario for the ‘Liberals’ would be if some sort of a ‘lunatic fringe’ of extreme right-wing fanatics somehow took control of the parliamentary party after years of opposition and then somehow convinced significant sectors of the Australian public that this group of right-wing fanatics had their best interests at heart… while all the while plotting against them… hang on!
      Have you ever had deja vu?
      For god’s sake make sure you check under ALL those beds!
      You boil the children… I’ll tear up some women… Oh! You know what I MEAN…get all those fascists in a circle… this shit’s about to get heavy…

    • Zaf says:

      01:08pm | 10/03/10

      6 For beggars: don’t try and shake hands or otherwise touch the person you’re asking for money - and definitely don’t try and shake hands or otherwise touch a person who HAS given you money.  Most givers are germ phobic neurotics.  They’re happier, and more generous, when you keep at least two feet away from them.

      7 For people who give to beggars; don’t expect gratitude.  Beggars aren’t usually hustling for a sandwich, most of the time they’re hustling to feed an addiction that’s ruled and ruined their lives.  (Yes, even crazy people can have addictions.) Once you say no, or the money’s changed hands, they barely see you.  If you give, give without thought of immediate reward, because any reward you get from the beggar is bogus.  (Reference the Bhagvad Gita for further advice on this.) 

      8 For people who give to beggars; again - don’t expect gratitude.  Charity is cold to accept, even if it’s given with a loving heart.  And really - you don’t love beggars, you just feel sorry for them.  If they actually notice you, they get that, and it’s at some level chilling.

    • Douggie says:

      01:10pm | 10/03/10

      Etiquette Number 8: Don’t ask for a specific amount of money- and especially don’t ask for a note denomination straight up- its bad enough to be hit up for a fiver, but one time walking past a Centerlink office in Melbourne a guy who was on his way inside stopped me and asked for 20 bucks! I don’t think he really expected me to give it to him, but that’s some nerve to ask. If you are going to prey on someone’s generosity then you should be happy with how much they are prepared to give you, because they can much more easily just say ‘no’.

    • Carrie Miller says:

      04:41am | 11/03/10

      Y3eah, I reckon this is probably a goer in terms of the list. Asking for specific amounts can cause embarassment - especially when you’ve only got 1 dollar or a 50. Ok, this one goes up.

    • Banjo says:

      01:13pm | 10/03/10

      I agree with Craig Lambie….I always donate to the Salvos because they are bloody champions and you know the money will be put to good use.

      Tell me this, though….why can’t they do something for the bag lady that lives at Circular Quay? I mean, that is just embarrassing in this day and age. Her pile of boxes and belongings is getting bigger by the week, and she is “living” right at the gateway to Sydney!? I realise that she probably loves the view, but do you think all the international visitors love looking at her and her filth?

      There is also a younger guy at the Quay who constantly hangs out ‘round the front of the various shops. Apart from what the shop owners must think, he has the tendency to be abusive to passers by. I walked into the Quay bottle shop one day and he said “nice jacket”. When I said “thanks, mate” he proceeded to hurl a tirade of abuse at me because I had spoken to him!

    • BobM says:

      02:21pm | 10/03/10

      Why don’t they get rid of them? Because Clover thinks they ‘add to the colour and vibrancy’  of the city. That’s why.

    • AFR says:

      02:25pm | 10/03/10

      So, you prefer out of sight, out of mind then?

    • Charles Kelly says:

      08:41am | 11/03/10

      I’d definitely prefer “out of sight, out of mind” AFR. Why the hell should the rest of us have to put up with these lowlife scumbags preying on the ignorance of morons who should, but clearly don’t, know better? For the majority of these people, conning gullible idiots out of their money is a job just like any other - except for the the fact that they pay no tax and contribute NOTHING positive to society. I’d accept “out of town”, “out of bounds” or “out of oxygen” as viable options too.

    • Kaz says:

      01:56pm | 10/03/10

      why do people assume that because I have a home to go to that I can afford to give them money?

      I might be well presented and on a morning/evening commute. But I can assure you that I’m stretched to the limit, like a lot of other 20-somethings starting out professionally.

      So when I get abused for not giving money it drives me insane. I was harrassed for 15 minutes at the bus stop one day because I was “obviously lying” and had money.

      Guess what, a Target blouse and skirt does not a millionaire make.

    • former snag & charity worker. says:

      02:06pm | 10/03/10

      One fine Sunday afternoon, i was waiting for a food van to arrive at a CBD location where i have sometimes volunteered serving food. Arriving early allowed me the opportunity to socialise with some of the MINORITY of, “truly homeless” & decent people that are on the street, including 2 of the war veterans i mentioned earlier, on another article.

      An international sport game had been played at a nearby venue & many tourists were walking past. 4 young females were begging at a bus stop, in between taking drugs, which are well known to make users aggressive. As time passed, they got worse with each passing tourist, who did not give, or give much.

      A few minutes before the van arrived, they pushed in front of the queue. The first man in line was a conservative, “self funded” retiree over 70 & silly enough to complain. He was savagely beaten. Out of nearly 100 people waiting, i was the only bystander to try & stop them, because “who do you think the police will arrest, fighting men, or women”.

      This food van is supplied by a church without $1 of government money. Some food from food bank, some purchased at markets by church, all volunteer staff, even the van servicing done at cost by a church member.

      A few weeks later one of the “girl’s” colleagues, abused van staff because the food was vegetarian & he wanted meat.

      Some of the “homeless” people, i have met, actually have, a housing commission unit, but have been scared out of it by drug using, dealing, youths that some clever social worker inflicted on existing tenants.

      6, Understand Carrie Miller (& all middle class welfare types) that by giving your last $5 to that woman, you were helping, assisting, encouraging, that woman to, abuse her child, by supporting that, “alleged mother’s” addiction to grog, cigarettes, drugs, gambling, whatever. Much of our “Welfare State” is a “jobs for the girls”, bureaucracy, scheme. More social workers, solving no problems, just, creating more of them.

    • BTS says:

      03:26pm | 10/03/10

      LOL,

      Giving $5 to a beggar = child abuse.

      Rarely do they have kids.  The State took them long, long ago.

    • former snag & charity worker. says:

      04:12pm | 10/03/10

      @BTS, Ah, no, Carrie mentions, the child being there at the time, a common ploy to add pathos when begging. Also you must have missed all the recent controversy about NSW DOCS, regularly not, removing “at risk” children, who later end up being killed, molested, etc. Together with all the other DOCS fiascoes in all states & territories for decades now.

    • BTS says:

      04:34pm | 10/03/10

      Former Snag and Charity Worker,

      Where did the woman spend the money ?  Did she buy the child a sandwich with the money?  Would that constitute abuse (unless it was peanut butter, of course!)?

    • susie says:

      06:02pm | 10/03/10

      @BTS, formersnag is backed up by the comment from Steve says:11:20am | 10/03/10 - “The Woman outside Redfern takes turns to switch with a semi-blind man so that the two “most sorry looking” people are begging for money all the time. Once enough is collected someone comes over and takes the money to a group of kids who run down Lawson st to the shops at the end or the pub to buy cigarettes or booze. They bring it back and distribute the goods and all this time the person doing the begging doesn’t have to move (eg lose potential money).”

    • BTS says:

      07:23am | 11/03/10

      Susie,

      This backs up what exactly?

    • formersnag, charity worker & tough lover. says:

      07:32am | 11/03/10

      @ BTS, your conveniently forgetting the angry outburst which started this article. This type of abuse is common with begging, because use of the drugs involved causes uncontrollable rage as a side effect &/or the junkie is “strung out” & getting progressively desperate as time goes by without enough cash for the next fix. Patience is not a virtue of addicts.

      @ Susie, Thank you for the support. Perhaps rule #1 of blogging should be that we fellow bloggers who care/are concerned about our nation should back each other up more often.

    • BTS says:

      08:00am | 11/03/10

      Snag,

      You require ‘back up’ from Susie to justify your position?  Why can’t you opinions and beliefs stand on their own merits.  I am not attacking you personally, I am engaging you and your thoughts, perhaps we may be able to understand each other’s points of view and perhaps (gasp) learn something from one another.

      So caring about our nation doesn’t involve assisting our fellow man?  Interesting…

      I wasn’t aware that you could channel the mindset of beggars on the street (Is it possible she was being funny and threw the slut remark out to get a dramatic response?), but thanks for the channeling and the clarification.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      02:33pm | 10/03/10

      There’s a bloke who’s hung around an entrance to the Myer store in Sydney’s CBD for at least ten years by my reckoning. The excuse on the sign he uses for begging changes every now and then, but it’s obviously effective because he’s openly admitted to making around sixty thousand dollars a year. That’s not bad for sitting on his lazy arse all day looking pathetic - and it irrefutably proves the old adage that “a fool and his/her money are soon parted”. Gullible idiots.

    • kelly says:

      04:02pm | 10/03/10

      Yes, I was left feeling like a fool with that story! I earn significantly less than 60,000 a year, yet was giving him money on a regular basis!!
      I just buy the big issue now….That story killed me.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      04:54pm | 10/03/10

      I love the irony in the fact that he spends his life conning gullible idiots out of their money, but was conned into giving up his story (my guess is he probably jumped at the opportunity to brag, unaware of who he was talking to). From first hand experience I can tell you that he gets really aggressive and abusive when you call him on it. Personally, I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire.

    • julain thomas says:

      02:40pm | 10/03/10

      I have lived in different class neighbourhoods and found the ones that have developed from working class to white collar ones, slowly develop a begger problem hmmm, I never give, one day they will take the whole wallet/purse and bash you, so dont get the wallet /purseout

    • julain thomas says:

      02:50pm | 10/03/10

      best response, only plastic sp*astic

    • Jake Roberts says:

      03:12pm | 10/03/10

      Can we please stop using condescending terms like “beggars” and “homeless?” The correct terminology is “bum.”

    • Vicki PS says:

      05:09pm | 10/03/10

      This is Australia, Jake, and you aren’t Woody Guthrie.  Stop watching so much ‘Merkin TV.  (Unless you are making a sly indirect reference to swiping one’s cash card in the the relevant slot)?

    • Clem says:

      03:26pm | 10/03/10

      6. Call their bluff. If they ask you for money for a train ticket home, go with them and buy it for them. I saw this done on a train when this smacky woman told the whole carriage her sob-story about needing $25 to go to Newcastle to visit her sick mum. A smart-thinking passsenger offered to buy her ticket for her at Central if she came to the ticket window with her. The woman begging looked completely thrown for a moment,  then shamelessly moved onto the next carriage.

      I’ve given heaps to beggars over the years but I’m just bloody sick of it. I wish them all the best, but I won’t be helping them any more. I’d rather give money to the people selling The Big Issue.

    • Brett L says:

      04:10pm | 10/03/10

      One time I saw a beggar in Hong Kong. Instead of giving him money I said to my wife, “watch this”. I went next door and brought a lovely takeaway dish of prawns and rice, with a coke. I gave it to the beggar. He looked at me, then took the dish and threw it on the ground and then motioned his hand for money instead. I then told my wife, that is why I never give to beggars.

    • Ben G says:

      06:08pm | 10/03/10

      I think it’s perfectly bloody reasonable to ask what they’re going to use the money for. Just who the hell do you think you’re helping when you buy them a goonbag to continue the cycle?
      And yes, I use my money to hit the piss (not every day mind you, unlike most homeless beggars), then I go to work in pain to pay for it. If they don’t want to take money under the condition of using it to improve themselves, then go ahead and waste your money. I’m keeping mine (which I work bloody hard for).

    • Mr Y says:

      07:14pm | 10/03/10

      For some it’s a game of numbers, some folk give and some don’t but they have all day to ask and it’s decent odds.  $1, $2, $5 is not much to give someone truly in need provided you aren’t the 130th person to donate to the kitty for the day.

    • jim says:

      08:06pm | 10/03/10

      I know of a begger, that goes around the streets of China town. We all love him… why?

      We park our cars at Loading zone or at the 5min park. He would come up to us and ask if we’d like him to car mind… we say yes, and give them $10. Sometimes it’s $30 or $100 from some of the wealthier chinese people. Just to get the rangers off our backs.

      That was until the police arrested him… whilst he was car-minding for us.

      Sad

    • S.L says:

      08:09pm | 10/03/10

      A few years ago I was doing a Sunday shift in a cab. An elderly lady was walking up to me on the rank at the local train station when a young boy about 14 or 15 intercepted her, she shook her head at the boy then proceeded towards my taxi, as she opened the door she said “could you just wait a minute please driver?” I said “sure, what’s up?” she replied “that young man over there asked me for $2 for bus fare to see his mother, I think I’ll give it to him.” I said “you’re doing nothing of the sort!” She was quite shocked at my reaction to her philanthropy until I pointed out the begger was eating an icecream that would’ve cost more than the alleged $2 bus fare to see dear old mum.
      When one of these people hassle you the usual tactic is “can you LEND me $X” not “give me something you’ll never get back!”
      Losers the lot of them in my books…............

    • davido says:

      11:35pm | 10/03/10

      ‘are there really rules that should be applied to the practice of asking for and giving money?’

      Rules there may not be (not withstanding the above effort) and giving unconditionally is great in theory… but a response like the one you received made you think twice about giving again.

      Most of us givers are not looking for the recipient to kiss our feet, yet at the same time people give because in some way it makes us feel better.

      As such, beggars might like to remember the saying ‘dont bite the hand that feeds you’. I would however point out that the urban myth of beggars earning big money is just that… an urban myth.

      There really shouldnt be any beggars in a society like Australia.
      I live in Bangalore India and March is ‘Beggar Eradication Month’ - I kid you not. Here the widespread belief is that giving to Beggars creates begging. That is - the giver is the problem not the Beggar.

      They might have a point.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      08:46am | 11/03/10

      They DEFINITELY “have a point” davido.

    • Andrew L says:

      03:52pm | 11/03/10

      I became homeless last year and slept on the streets for several months before finally finding rooming house accommodation I could afford.

      I found myself in this situation due to a combination of mental illness (bipolar, PTSD), abuse (physical, emotional and sexual) and lack of social supports. I did not ask to suffer from mental illness, nor did I ask to have my self-esteem and worth annihaliated through a combination of being emotionally abused, raped and beaten.

      I have continually fought hard to get myself out of this situation.

      During my time living on the street I refrained from begging whenever possible as I didn’t wish to impose on the lives of other people. On the occasions when I did resort to begging it was because I had no other option. The shrapnel I received was ALWAYS spent on food and/or replacement clothes.

      I do not drink nor do I take drugs; although society has decreed I “must” purely because I was homeless. On one occasion I was even refused help from a service because I would not admit to being a druggie or alcoholic. 

      Also, contrary to popular opinion, I have continued to browse the internet when I can (courtesy of free internet at the library) in order to keep myself up to date with current events, news & opinion and retain a connection with the world.

      If I ever relapse and find myself back on the streets I will follow all of the rules listed here if I find myself begging again; as I always did anyway.

      Also, for the record, if anyone had offered me a sandwich/oj instead of money I would have accepted with happiness and immense gratitude.

      Not all beggars are the same, and yet every homeless person continues to be painted with the same brush regardless. It’s heartening to see discrimination is alive and well in Australia.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      09:02pm | 11/03/10

      You are yet to convince me your homelessness was not a personal choice, Andrew L.

    • Carrie Miller says:

      07:52am | 12/03/10

      Andrew L. Your story really moved me. I was hoping in a slightly humourous way to open up a discussion on a serious issue that your story shines a light on. Good on you for telling it. Voices like yours need to be heard.

    • pheelion says:

      09:41pm | 11/03/10

      Some excerpts from Kahil Gibran’s ‘The Prophet”

      “... You often say ‘I would give, but only to the deserving’.  The trees in your orchard say not so, nor the flocks in your pasture.  They give that they may life, for to withhold is to perish.  Surely he who is worthy to receive his days and his nights is worthy of all else from you.  And he who has deserved to drink from the ocean of life deserves to fill his cup from your little stream
      ....
      And who are you that men should rend their bosom and unveil their pride, that you may see their worth naked and their pride unabashed? See first that you yourself deserve to be a giver, and an instrument of giving. For in truth it is life that gives unto life - while you , who deem yourself a giver, are but a witness. And you receivers - and you are all receivers - assume no weight of gratitude, lest you lay a yoke upon yourself and upon him who gives ...”

    • Nicole says:

      09:05am | 12/03/10

      Carrie, you’ve left out the most important part of the story - did you get your $5 back from that horrible woman at Redfern station? I would have raised hell if I got that response from someone I’d just given my money to!!

    • Carrie Miller says:

      05:16am | 13/03/10

      Nicole, no, I never did get it back. I would have just bought two longnecks with it anyway.

 

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