Abbott’s new era of work for the proles

Erick says:

05:32am | 01/04/11

D’oh! That should have been “zero UNemployment”, not “zero employment”. Time for my coffee.

Peter says:

05:41am | 01/04/11

I’m sure if they were threatened with having the dole taken off them they would soon stop being so incompetent. It’s their choice, either contribute, show some competence in some way to society or piss off. And if they genuinely have serious health or mental issues preventing them from doing this there is welfare for support. Genuine only need apply.

persephone says:

06:18am | 01/04/11

Oh dear, I agree with Erick.

It’s a very small subgroup, but it’s there.

I knew someone once who had a severe alcohol problem. When he was sober, he was a brilliant worker (never had trouble getting a job) but he was rarely sober.

I realise there’ll be posters here who say ‘well, he should have cleaned up his act’ - but again, that’s too simplistic. There’s lots of very wealthy people who have had the best rehab available in the world and still fail.

Tossing people like him off the dole helps no one. All it would mean is that someone who (occasionally) is employable ends up sleeping under a bridge or involved in crime.

(Because if people aren’t getting some sort of income, whether from work or the dole, they’re still going to get money somehow).

And keeping someone in prison is a far greater burden on the taxpayer than slinging them a very few dollars a week.

I once heard a top NY policeman being interviewed on the radio. He said wtte that when he first looked at our welfare system, he thought it was madness. He couldn’t understand why anyone worked.

But then he looked at our crime statistics,and it all made sense.

Steve Putnam says:

06:20am | 01/04/11

I think that’s very true. Based on experience of hiring (and firing) people for myself and others, in both Australia and abroad for thirty years I came to the conclusion some time ago that there are some people who are just un-employable.
As Punch regulars would know I am on the Labor side of politics, but I have no problem with work for the dole. However I think Abbott is just playing politics with this one (as usual). The coalition’s line on the Australian economy can be seen for the beat up it is from here in Europe.
The youth exodus from countries such as Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain is heartbreaking for all concerned. A whole generation has lost all prospects:. In Spain for instance the unemployment rate for 16-19 year olds has reached a staggering 64%.Even the more stable economies of
Germany, Britain and France have debt levels amounting to over 80% of
GDP which makes Australia’s figure of 5% look like small change.

Justin says:

06:47am | 01/04/11

This is the third or fourth comment in a row of yours that I agree with Erick, and that scares me. But you’re right, some people are just so incredibly stupid that nothing will make them useful. I’m interested to know when you became reasonable?

acotrel says:

07:17am | 01/04/11

A while back I supervised twelve ‘work for the dole’ people on a small project.  The cost of their petrol getting to the job was more than the excess allowance.  I was supposed to ping them thru Centrelink if they played up.  One guy was on his last day, and called me everything he could think of.  Some have suggested I should have sacked him on the spot, and had his pension cut off.  WHAT A JOKE - the guy is on a Centrelink pension, and depends on it to feed his family, and I’m supposed to persecute him? GET REAL! With those guys I simply led by example, and every last one of them pitched in and worked.  Their only complaint was that ‘work for the dole’ is NOT A REAL JOB!

TimB says:

07:29am | 01/04/11

“However I think Abbott is just playing politics with this one (as usual).”

Why?

Why is it that you have the Labor types constantly screaming that Abbott has no policy, yet whenever he comes up with one, their only response is “Oh he’s just playing politics”.

WTF?

KH says:

07:31am | 01/04/11

Justin, Peter - there really are some people who are mentally disabled to a point where they just aren’t employable - please don’t denigrate such people by calling them ‘stupid’ or telling them to become ‘competent’ when in most cases, this is simply beyond them, and more often than not, really not their fault - they are born that way.

Erick and others are right - there really are some people who are just unemployable, for whatever reason, and placing them with people who then have to carry them is unfair.  I think there should be some kind of assessment before just cutting people off - I can see a lot of them just turning to crime and I can’t see how that will benefit society.

Tubesteak says:

07:42am | 01/04/11

Yes, Erick. There will always be unemployment.

Someone might be changing jobs and taking a few weeks off in between.

Someone might be studying.

There could genuinely be no jobs in their area that matches their skills

They could have been made redundant and are searchign for a new job.

There are many reasons for unemployment and to pull the rug out from under them or make them do something they’re not suited to is pointless and little more than dog whistling to win a few headlines.

The fact that Tony Abbott is raising this issue just proves that he’s a desperate attention-seeker. Wait until an election campaign is on to raise this stuff.

dovif says:

07:48am | 01/04/11

If a guy is an alcoholic, he needs to get help, to remove his funding from alcohol is probably a good way to make him think about his life again.

Work for the Dole help people get some experience, who can then be recommended for other work

Having people in their 20s being paid to do nothing is a waste to society and will just led to more problems in the future. Instead of paying them to continue their waste, the government is better off spending money on other things to get them involve in society

acotrel says:

07:56am | 01/04/11

@TimB Tony Abbott’s ‘policies’ must be thought up in one liners just like his rhetoric!  When is he ever going to find a different platform from that of his miserable mentor John Howard? The Liberal Party is just so BLOODY BORING!

Cloud Strife says:

07:57am | 01/04/11

@Erick

I agree! It’s not a nice thing to say, but there are people who can’t or won’t learn, and/or have very horrible personalities. These are the kind of people that can kill a hard working, productive team.

My partner did work for the dole, and loved it. Felt productive as their long term unemployment and constant knockbacks was making them depressed. Partner felt they were actually doing something productive - was only meant to be there two days a week, but was usually in five. Didn’t have to be, but WANTED to be. Still chips in now and again even though they are working full time now, but there were a lot of bludgers at the place Partner was working for the dole at.

Grandma says:

07:57am | 01/04/11

TimB - agree, media dutifully follow Gillards opinion . Here’s what she had to say - Ms Gillard said Mr Abbott was feeling the political heat from Liberal Party focus groups. “People are worried that he’s negative all the time,” she said, and Mr Abbott’s announcement was “all about politics”.
It’s as if the journalists have a sit in meeting with Julia and then run straight to their computers and offices and report for Gillard. Her comments about Abbott are repeated as gospel by the media. Her own ideas on this subject are basically the same as Abbotts, I don’t hear her saying anything about his policy idea, just a personal attack on Abbott as usual. I know who’s playing politics here.

Michael says:

08:13am | 01/04/11

That’s why we have unions Erick, so lazy malcontents have somewhere to spend their week days.

john says:

08:29am | 01/04/11

@Erick the bottom of the bell curve are decent human beings. If you kick someone down enough times they will begin to believe they are on the human scrap heap of society’s making. I view the bottom of the bell curve as part of a failed society, that have been failed by the rest of society.

People are a product of family & society, society is to blame 100% even if family has failed the individual.

Its not somebody else’s problem, we all own a share of it.

Bruce says:

08:38am | 01/04/11

Do I understand correctly that Tony Abbotts proposal is already in place in the Northern Territory ? Or was this incorrectly reported in the media ? Also, I would never have aligned Pink Floyd music with the dole bludgers !!  Its insulting to Pink Floyd….

Justin says:

08:43am | 01/04/11

Get your hand off it KH, no one is talking about the disabled here, we’re talking about normal people who have no common sense, no foresight, zero social skills and suck any workplace dry.

You’re talking about an entirely different issue to those who are physically and mentally fit and able, but seemingly lack the ability to hold down a job because their attitude stinks.

ian m says:

08:47am | 01/04/11

We live on the Gold Coast having retired and moved here 9 years ago. In our street is a house owned by the government in which a family of 3 live. Mum would be 48/50 and hasn’t worked in 9 years. Eldest son is 24 and hasn’t worked since he left school but managed to pass his driving test first time so he has brains. Under Howard he had to attend interviews for work he would put transfer tattoos on his neck shave his hair and put a teardrop under his eye just so he wouldn’t be employed. He bragged to me he got his girlfriend pregnant so he could get enough cash for a car, then dumped her and the baby. The daughter left school 4 years ago and hasn’t had a job either and since leaving school has put on loads of weight. I don’t know where they get the money from but they seem to spend afternoons drinking and swearing at the top of their voices with up friends who don’t work either.

Andrew says:

08:51am | 01/04/11

It’s amazing how so many of these ‘incompetent’ people, when given the right incentive, suddenly find some competence.  Just like a teenager, when confronted with no parents in the house, no fast food, and ravenous hunger, will suddenly find the ability to make a sandwich, a skill that for some reason was out of reach for 16 years.  Now I’m not saying this is true for ALL people, but the vast majority certainly can and will find the effort to work if they have the right incentive.  And perhaps the thought of having zero income is just that incentive?  In my opinion, if there’s a job availble that somebody is physically and mentally capable of doing, no matter how ‘awful’ or ‘demeaning’, then that person should not be eligible for any benefits.  Too good to clean toilets?  Well, somebody has to do it - I certainly did for quite a few years to get a little bit of money while studying.

The old saying if very true - “Whatever you subsidise, you get more of”.  We’re subsidising sloth, so it’s no surprise that’s what we’re getting more of.  Stop rewarding laziness, and instead let’s reward effort, and I think you’ll find a sudden turnaround in the job situation.

Gregg says:

09:34am | 01/04/11

@acotrel,
No, Madam No! with your madams No to any alternate policies Acca and not the first time either is it!
But we see you’re something of a No! guy too, No! to doing the the right thing, that’s if we can believe you, No!

Gregg says:

09:46am | 01/04/11

Sometimes or even may times Erick, you ought to consume many coffees before even commenting.
The bell curve and zero unemployment is just a load of crap in that you are saying the problem is too hard.
Even people with significant disabilities have been able to take up productive work and so making our we should have some people permanently on the dole is just plain ridiculous.
If there are physical or severe mental conditions that do prevent working, there is disability and other welfare, so lets not confuse the two.
And there is certainly no problems with making the effort, even though for various reasons it may not be achieved.
Drink a gallon of coffee first next time.

Gregg says:

09:51am | 01/04/11

@Perse,
Oh dear
You are confused and alcoholism is likely to lead someone on to disability rather than unemployment and there is AA.

Ryan says:

10:39am | 01/04/11

I am all for work for the dole, as long as they take the money they were giving to the dole bludgers and use it to bolster our police numbers (not to mention pay our police better).

Geoff - Brisbane says:

12:08pm | 01/04/11

acotrel says:07:56am | 01/04/11
” The Liberal Party is just so BLOODY BORING!”

At least with the liberal party you know what you get, unlike labor’s real julia, fake julia, half a julia, not quite a julia and bob brown.

TKS says:

12:19pm | 01/04/11

I left uni in the late 90s and it took over 12 months to find a job.  Work for for the dole wouldn’t have found me a job either. I applied for over 200 jobs - both skilled (in my field of study) and unskilled jobs. I got no where with the unskilled jobs. One manager even said to me “seriously why would you bother working here when you you have all these qualitications?”.  The feedback I always got from the skilled job applications was lack of experience.  I couldn’t win!  I even got refusals on attempts to work for free in my chosen field to get useful work experience.  Cleaning parks on a work for the dole program wouldn’t have made me any more employable then my previous 7 years working in retail!

Aussie Born and Bred says:

01:03pm | 01/04/11

@ Erick’s first post - Bullsh*t.  Even the most incompetent moron can pick up rubbish off the side of the road.  It’s the WILL to work that’s lacking from those at the bottom of your bell curve.

I’ve worked with some very low IQ guys whose only “skill” was having a desire to work.  It made them feel better that they were contributing to society, instead of sponging off it.  They didn’t care that they swept a floor all day.  They’d happily come back the next and sweep it again. 

NO ONE is too dumb that they can’t be given a simple task to complete.  Your attitude does nothing but empower these people to continue fleecing the hard-working taxpayers of this country.

Sam Chowder says:

01:38pm | 01/04/11

All these useless, bottom of the bell curve, wasters would make quite gifted public servants.

Ando says:

02:13pm | 01/04/11

Is 100% employment a possibility? If so, everyone should work and no one should get the dole after extended unemployment. If not, I would rather those who are happy to bludge their lives away make up the unemployed than take the jobs of those who appreciate work.

gman says:

02:54pm | 01/04/11

@TKS

If you’re putting tertiarty qualifications on a resume for an unskilled job, you’re a bloody idiot.

All employers want to see is a base level of aptitude, a willingness to work and an ability to be part of a team. For the years after I finished uni looking for a way into my career, I sure as hell didn’t sell myself to the bar manager by telling them what degrees I had, just my hours of availability.

acotrel says:

05:46pm | 01/04/11

;At least with the liberal party you know what you get, ‘

Sure do!  Same old boring sit on their hands and do nothing except spread divisiveness and poison stuff! Abbott is working over all the old gr ound Howard ploughed up when he was sitting on the throne.  An original thought from him would be a change for the better!

BK says:

08:13pm | 01/04/11

Thirty years ago, every company and government department had a few people who did very little. Since managers started thinking about efficiency, these people lost their jobs. We will always have unemployment.

Nick buick says:

07:58pm | 02/04/11

In nature, these people would be used to feed wild animals.

LC says:

09:04pm | 03/04/11

Persephone, sorry, that’s not an excuse. Your friend should seek help. It’d benefit his life in more ways than one.

acotrel says:

07:22am | 01/04/11

I don’t believe anyone is ‘unemployable’.  I had one work for the dole person who was on the methadone programme.  As long as you were willing to wait while he spewed after he exerted himself, he was just fine!  The major problem is employers who don’t know how to lead a gang of workers.

Simon says:

07:33am | 01/04/11

yes !!

James says:

08:23am | 01/04/11

Very well said, Eric. Proof in point, the current president in America.

Knemon says:

10:59am | 01/04/11

@ biff - If not politics then most definitely the public service in some form.

TChong says:

06:23am | 01/04/11

Depends which meeja you browse.
The Punch, by even the most begnign measurements,is Right of center, most of the articles posted reflect this.
Murdoch can hardly be called a Lefty .
At the moment the SMH is definitely backing Turnbull-another article 31/3 ( Sydney “Power Couples”), and blatantly editorialised for the LNP in NSW.
Maybe big meeja is showing its flexbility and power by playing favorites as the opportunities allow.

Troyboy says:

06:29am | 01/04/11

Spot on, Abbott said it! Quick lets find something negative to say about it. Abbott gets treated unfairly by the media and it shows in his poor opinion polls. If he was treated more fairly, the opinion polls would be different. When was the last time anyone read or heard something positive written or said about Tony Abbott in the media? I’m sure more people would agree with Abbott on this issue than disagree, but from the media we will only hear from his detractors.

George says:

06:35am | 01/04/11

And bum lickin’ “YES men and women” to Gillard, Brown & Co

Super D says:

06:47am | 01/04/11

There is a certain demographic that is just looking to be outraged by Tony Abbott.  They’re not even really sure why, they just know he’s outrageous. 

Essentially they are so blinkered that they can’t even tell whether what Abbott has said is outrageous so they disagree with every utterance just in case.

Jedi_T says:

07:10am | 01/04/11

Agreed Gerry!
Any idea Abbott has seems to get lost in a media circus of negativity.
Gillard says he is re-hashing old ideas, well maybe they are good ideas, or it shows he has some core views, if it was spun even I think some of his policy ideas would actually gain traction. Now wouldn’t that be change of pace.
On a random off note - a little conspiracy theory I overheard the other day might make a couple of people laugh today, or perhaps think!
“It’s quite obvious that the nations media sources in an attempt to save the credibility of Australia as a nation, are attempting to paint it’s first female PM, in as good a light as possible, so it doesnt appear to be a racist, sexist country!”

acotrel says:

07:29am | 01/04/11

@SuperD I don’t have to wait long for Tony Abbott to get it wrong again?  He has a head people just love to kick, and he deserves it! He’s just so opportunistic! - like golden staph!

KH says:

07:35am | 01/04/11

Its a Pavlov response - he just says so many stupid things that it is now expected that every utterance will be equally as stupid as the last.

This is one of his more stupid ones - seriously, go for a walk around some of the less solubrious suburbs and have a look at some of the people who are obviously not working.  Would you work with them?!  Some of them really would be more trouble than they are worth. There really is a group of people who are unemployable, and in times past may have been the village idiot.  You have to decide if it is just cheaper to keep them on the dole, break the back of already struggling welfare agencies, or have it cost you when they break into your property every other week because they no longer have any means of support.

acotrel says:

08:00am | 01/04/11

@Troyboy
‘Abbott gets treated unfairly by the media and it shows in his poor opinion polls’

He gets more good press than he deserves! He is treated more than fairly, thank you stars that I’m not a journo.  I’d have something to say about him that’d rot your socks! He’s a danger to democracy! You don’t empower people like that!

acotrel says:

08:07am | 01/04/11

@SuperD
‘Essentially they are so blinkered that they can’t even tell whether what Abbott has said is outrageous so they disagree with every utterance just in case. ‘

That’s untrue.  I can tell you exactly why I disagree with his strident ‘utterances’! He always takes a negative unconstructive approach, and uses Australia’s problems to further his own career without suggesting improvements that don’t involve coercion.  He is your typical authoritarian religous idiot!

Anne says:

08:14am | 01/04/11

Yep the papers are all over him again today. Only stories I can find about him are from people and journalists who disagree. Yet I find it hard to beleive the majority of Australians would disagree with him.

Warren says:

08:41am | 01/04/11

It doesn’t help Abbott’s position that he has stated he will always oppose government policies not based on their merits or lack of, but on principle. He has labelled himself as Dr No. And picking on the unemployed (or Muslims, greenies, or latte sipping elite) always plays well with the talk back crowd.

Nafe says:

09:11am | 01/04/11

Actorel, what a load of garbage. Every policy position he has, he offered a solution. Abbott should not be expected to agree with bad Labor policy.
1)Climate change, Abbott disagrees with the ETS and Carbon Tax, He has a policy alternative, Direct Action.
2) Asylam Seekers; He has an alternative to the open boarders and overcrowding, and its more realistic that Timor. Its called Nuaru,
3) Flood Levy - Abbotts alternative is budget cuts and stop the waste.
4) NBN; Abbott has a more wireless broadband version, you know,wireless that mose people a gravitating to anyway vis amartphones, and using computers on the go.

So please Actorel, please tell me what Abbott is opposing that he doesn’t have his own policy response to? Or are you just caught up in the unfair media hype who are too lazy to do their own homework and just Parrott JuLiar.

Chris L says:

09:46am | 01/04/11

I see plenty of articles criticising Rudd or NSW Labor or Gillard and always plenty of Liberal supporters (probably including many who have commented on this thread) ready to jump in an add their two cents worth.

Such criticism is fine, especially those times when someone actually has a point instead of just firing off slogans and rhetoric, but you have to expect your side to cop it every now and then as well.

Troy says:

09:47am | 01/04/11

@Gerry - have a read of Steve Putnam’s comment above to get some perspective on why people are sick of Abbott.  Australia is actually doing quite well and we want a leader who sings a more positive tune.  Asylum Seekers.  Immigration.  Dole Bludgers.  Great Big Tax on Everything.  Work Choices.  It’s all so very old and tired.  He’s like a 1980’s politician and we want someone that lives with us, here and now.  Where’s the vision?  He’s a smart guy - why can’t he put together a coherent, positive message for Australia?

Gregg says:

09:59am | 01/04/11

@ acotrel,
Your love for anything other than what Labor may think is a good idea is totally known and if there was a poll for the most biased poster on the Punch, you would win hands down.
You would also win for most spiteful and hateful, so with your attitudes, you can be anything you like and you would be rotting no one socks off but your own.

Gregg says:

10:13am | 01/04/11

@Warren, it is not so much that Abbott oppposes everything on principle and rather than believe all often biased press reports it can be of value to listen to the bloke himself and you may find that whilst people like acotrel on here just love the Dr. No tag, Abbotts approach is significantly different, ie. his clear statements are:
. It is an oppositions role to hold a government to account to ensure that the best policies are implemented for Australia.
. Some policies are agreed with and others we will make suggestions for improving.
. Where a policy is just plain bad, we will oppose bad policy.

If you have a look at legislation that either party usually puts up in parliament, you will be surprised at just how much will have the support of opposition.
There is considerable bias against Abbott in the media and even Tors in this article has shown it and as I will declare in my own post.

Canute says:

07:13pm | 01/04/11

@Gerry, maybe because everything Abbott says is crap. The Liberals must be getting VERY despondent with him as leader. They loosing time and positive policies while “he” thinks it is about becoming ‘THE government’, rather than debating by being a part of the parliament and creating positive forward policies. Not rhetoric and point scoring.

Todd says:

07:00am | 01/04/11

LOL BK, most probably alot longer than you or I could. The guy was a volunteer firefighter & appears to be quite healthy, so i’d say he’d last longer than most of the people he appears to be pushing for it.

Joan says:

07:12am | 01/04/11

Who do you think picks fruit now…. martians? People make life choices…you too could be a pollie ... and not pick fruit. You can pick fruit and earn an honest living or you can pick your nose living on taxpayer hand out watching Oprah and Gill-  Lard and leave the fruit to rot. Life`s not an easy ride….up to you to make it easy not your next door taxpaying neighbour working 37+

acotrel says:

08:15am | 01/04/11

Picking fruit would be OK, except for the sunburn, and the farmers who want to pay piece rates for picking substandard crops which haven’t been properly cultivated, and need a lot of selection by the pickers.  If it’s on an hourly rate, it could be tolerable. Some of these jobs sound great if you say them quickly, but those who actually do it for a living, know the pitfalls.

bretto says:

10:08am | 01/04/11

Any 50+ yr old bloke that can complete an ironman triathlon (3.86km swim, 180.25km bike ride and 42.195km run) wouldn’t have a problem at all doing a days hard work out in the sun.

BK says:

08:18pm | 01/04/11

@Joan

I am guessing that you have never done that type of work.

@Brett

The sort of fitness required to load watermelons in Kunnanurra on a hot day is quite different to the sort of fitness that a triathlete has.

Roy says:

07:19am | 01/04/11

TChong, yes it made Safran a favourite of mine.
I despise dole bludgers, but Martin set the Paxtons up to fail.
That was the start of my hate for the 9 network, such pleasure seeing it now, like a sprayed blow fly with its end imminent

acotrel says:

08:21am | 01/04/11

@Castro The skills gap is a load of bull.  I’m 69, with three degrees and 50 years of work experience.  If I wanted to get a 9 to 5er these days the yuppie managers would feel threatened, and never employ me

Michael says:

09:47am | 01/04/11

@Acotrel, you wouldn’t get a job because you’re an arrogant know all that talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Go ahead prove me wrong

Reg says:

10:47am | 01/04/11

Acotrel - 3 degrees? That’s no different to most of the kids coming out of uni these days (most have at least double degrees or post grad studies). My son has three degrees and over 10 years industry experience and he’s not even 35.

The 50 years of experience is what sets you apart. However as you say, you are 69 and soon to be retired. It is not unreasonable for an employer to avoid hiring you as it would be likely they would have to look for someone to replace you within a few years.

No manager would be threatened by someone your age.

However, if you have an attitude that you believe you are better than everyone who you’d work with (which you appear to do otherwise why make such a rude generalisation as “yuppie managers”) then you are likely not to be hired for that reason.

My guess is that you wouldn’t even bother applying for the job, and prefer to have a whinge instead about those who are working.

Esme Weatherwax says:

06:04pm | 01/04/11

Totally agree with acotrill.  After 30 years of a high pressure profession, I wanted to ease back, but not retire.  I applied for job after job, only to be told that I was “over-qualified” for the position offered.  One human resources firm employee actually told me to give up the search.  I am now self-employed and getting paid for something I once considered a hobby.  I’m lucky.  Probably.

Agreed, we should never import labor while there are strong young people to take up the load, but we should also look at our education system.  In many schools there is no discipline because of our “nanny” laws and no incentives at home to instill the work ethic into the Gen Ys and Xs.  I know a family where no member has ever held a job for more than a month or so.  The girls eagerly fall pregnant as soon as they can.

A year’s National Service for both males and females over the age of 18 would be of benefit to those young adults and to the country.  It’s time to take the kid gloves off.

patsy says:

11:25am | 01/04/11

You got through with your determination and PRIDE! This is sadly lacking in others.

Cunegonde says:

01:01pm | 01/04/11

Thank you Patsy; and I am running my own practice.
But point I was traying to seed across was we had no councelling, rent assistance or any of the perks migrants nowdays are privilaged to have.
And we all worked!!!  But now we are breeding politically correct civil right how dare you ask me to do the job not fit for me- society.
Even little kido knows its right.And if Julia aka Vladimirka stays in power,I dont know who is going to work! Maybe we will all sit under the tree with Boby and pretend we dont believe in money and capitalizm.

Michael says:

07:37am | 01/04/11

You will notice Gillard doesn’t attack Abbotts policy just Abbott. Who’s playing politics?

acotrel says:

09:01am | 01/04/11

Abbott is being opportunistic again, and he’s using the disavantaged AGAIN!

AdamC says:

09:11am | 01/04/11

Jane and Michael, in Gillard’s defence, she has no intention of actually doing anything to get people off welfare and into work. It’s just more empty rhetoric. So, in that respect, the government and opposition do have different policies, if not so much officially, then in practice.

Knemon says:

11:11am | 01/04/11

@ Jane - Which makes me wonder why Abbott went with this…it will make it more difficult for him to attack Gillard when they both have similar views on this issue. Go figure indeed.

Syl says:

03:25pm | 01/04/11

acotrel

How is sitting on your ass living on the taxpayers money IF you are able to work being disadvantaged?

If you can work, and the opportunity to work is there, you should be working.  It’s as simple as that.  “Choosing” to live on the dole should not be a choice.

Tim says:

08:13am | 01/04/11

“Strangely, most of the 20-somethings he detests so much, want to work, but there is not all that much work out there.”

What an absolute load of crap.

I know plenty of 20 somethings who don’t work, sit around all day smoking pot and playing xbox. Many of them have been offered work but never last more than a week or so because it’s much easier to do nothing. Notably most of them smoke and drink, so the quarantining of their benefits should work as well.

” (b) try living on the pittance he proposes allowing these people to receive. “

The dole is simply there to provide a subsistence living while you are in between jobs, it’s not there for you to live on long term. It’s not hard to survive on the dole for a few months while looking for work, i’ve done it and those that say it is, aren’t trying.

Cunegonde says:

08:14am | 01/04/11

Actually Colin, you are dead wrong here.Anyone knowing Tony can tell you he is one of the few that was struggling when his 3 kids were small and wife at home.And they were strugling with mortgage.
Do at least get it right and give credit when due.Just because you detest someone a you obviously do, you should be civil and give credit.Man is well educated. I used to loath Keating, but have always respected his inteligence and kowledge.Get your head out of gutter labor politics..
As for hardship, read my earlier comment.

Tedd says:

08:19am | 01/04/11

Yep, Tony Abbott has been cosily institutionalised all his life, and floated around politics for most of it.  Hence, his doctrines do not seem to come form anything other than a desire for doctrine.

Jedi_T says:

08:46am | 01/04/11

Colin,
Dont know how many 20-something people you know, but I know a few, being as I fall into this category and the ones that wanna work do, but the large number who arn’t working, arn’t really looking!
They like to carry-on like they are, but at the end of the day they love the freedom of their current existence and without a push wont leave its comfortable bubble.
I’ve also had the lovely job of screening some of these 20 somethings for labouring jobs and their attitude is far different to that of 30/40 somethings applying. And the difference isnt pretty.
So Colin perhaps you should get out into the real world and take a geez, you might find it enlightening.

jf says:

08:48am | 01/04/11

“neither the intellectual engine “

I think that this comment says more about you Colin. A tip for the future mate, if you are going to attack the man rather than the ball, try and attack an actual flaw.

As to real life experience, Abbott has many, many decades of real life experience sitting behind him in the opposition team than the academic elites and union hacks sitting behind Jooliar.

“Abbot needs to get a life”

Successful career, happily married, beautiful kids - I reckon he’d feel as though he has a life.

“there is not all that much work out there”

There is bucket loads of work out there. Something which you’d know if you had any “real life experience”. We are at near full employment. One of the main challenge for business at the moment is to productivity due to the lack of people available to employ.

“living on the pittance he proposes allowing these people to receive”

Nowhere has Abbott said that those who are genuinely unable to work should get any less in the way of benefits. In fact, tetting those that are able to work to work means that there will be more available for those that are genuinely unable to.

acotrel says:

09:14am | 01/04/11

@Joan I just love people who get into ‘downwards envy’.  They often have a cushy life derived from the efforts of their over stressed partner.

acotrel says:

09:47am | 01/04/11

Joan I have very few ‘beliefs’ or ‘rules’ im my life, but here are a few.

Do unto others.

Don’t knock anybody else’s ‘go’.

If you’re having a meal in company , keep your eyes on your own plate - it’s good manners

Lead by example!

Vince says:

10:27am | 01/04/11

“They often have a cushy life derived from the efforts of their over stressed partner.”

Nailed it, bro.  Word!

Joan says:

01:01pm | 01/04/11

`Downwards envy` ??? Who by..??....not by those at work and with a work ethic and understanding of social obligation. You don’t sit on your arse when your young and able, receiving dole cheque day in year out. But then I guess those that do sit around have their parents to thank. And dream of cushy lives….. cushy lives come as result of hard work, majority of Australians do just that hard work this results in life looking cushy the envy of the bludger.. No free meal ticket for me ... from my husband or the government. .... pay my own way… the more I work and enjoy my work the cushier life gets. Kennedy got it right.  ` Ask what you can do for your country, not what your country can do for you`.  The selfish gene is alive and well in some young dole bludgers.

joan2 says:

09:28pm | 03/04/11

I could have written what Joan says!!!. Had a string of teenagers here—the boys mates and grand children. One boss had to force a lad to work,when he didn’t want to go. The lad turned out to be a beauty and is now a fishing mate with his boss. Learning to work is a wonderful thing!!

Retired Soldier says:

08:32am | 01/04/11

Well done Deb. Of all the negative comments about this issue yours is the most simplistic and naieve statement I have read. You first scare monger about wages and “all sorts of nasty things” and then you resort to name calling. I wonder what else is roaming around your biased and simple Labor mind ? Really Deb, people who hold views like yours would be much better off collecting your dole money and remaining anonymous instead of attracting attention to yourselves.

MarK says:

09:34am | 01/04/11

I see.

Abbott is now a communist.

Yes. Makes sense.

Knemon says:

01:01pm | 01/04/11

Yes MarK - There is a major difference between communism and fascism, back to school for you Deb.

Joan says:

01:09pm | 01/04/11

`We are not commies yet ` red Juliar ex Socialist Forum member is working on it….. she`s got her background credentials, overnight knifing of Rudd,  lying her way through elections, using manipulative language to excuse and justify, Commrade Juliar on track with her bag of Commie tricks set to make Australia Red.

michael j says:

01:31pm | 01/04/11

Well i think a minim youth(21) wage of $3.80 an hour would see a big increase in jobs and keep the centre-link officers clear so then they can work on more important issues like the baby bonus Australia used to have
A minim wage of $14.80 for adults should be maintained for adults for the foreseeable future,all other payments should be suspended,
National service is always a good option not only would young people learn useful trades such as armourer’s to tank driver’s,you also get to peel spuds and do laundry,,thing’s that will help you at some stage in you life,

deb says:

06:24am | 02/04/11

retreaded soldier,i am not a dole bludger.but unlike you can see both sides of the picture. so go back and play your war games.

Rover of North Cooma says:

09:04am | 01/04/11

I find that hard to believe as I have a friend who recently went through six weeks on the dole and had to provide evidence of job applications every fortnight. His Centrelink case manager would then ring the companies to check that he had applied.

There are quite stringent checks for people claiming Newstart, and it’s a very depressing way to live.

Elphaba says:

09:31am | 01/04/11

@Rover, I’ve never understood how people can rort the system.  My uncle had to claim unemployment when he lost his job, and the amount of paperwork and hoops he had to jump through - seriously, rorting the system must be a full-time job in itself.

I have no doubt people do it, but man - the effort that must go into it…

Jade says:

10:27am | 01/04/11

Well he did it some how, we would ask him weekly how the job hunt was going and he would say, “aah yeah, I bought the paper today to look” but he never looked. 

He probably used the excuse that he didn’t have a licence as the reason he couldn’t find one as well.

Syl says:

03:34pm | 01/04/11

Rover

It really isn’t hard to rort the system this way.  My father used to run a successful Locksmithing business and would have dole bludgers “applying” for work every week.  They would come in for an interview, be messily dressed and just present themselves as unemployable in general.  BUT they did “apply” for a job, so Centrelink is happy.  If Centrelink rang him to double check he would tell them about the interview and how the candidate presented themselves, but I would imagine many managers would just say “yes, he applied but was unsuccessful”.  I would also imagine that the people at Centrelink wouldn’t really give a shit anyway.

Once he hired one just to piss the guy off.  He lasted 2 days….

justin says:

04:29pm | 01/04/11

Didn’t hire them did he ?

So the employers claims that they are “desperate” is total BS.

Syl says:

09:46pm | 01/04/11

Uh, why should he hire someone who doesn’t actually want the job and who he doesn’t want working for him.  But just because they dont want to work, shouldnt mean they get off scot free and handed free money.

Just because an employer is “desperate” for workers doent mean he should hire any dickhead who wanders in off the street.

acotrel says:

11:07pm | 03/04/11

@Rover.  You just destroyed a good story, with the truth!  And if you live in a country town and don’t have a car, you dole gets cuu off if you don’t attentd job interviews which might be 100Km away, and not near regular public transport.  I really envy those people who never have to near C*ntlink.  The only reason I ever went there, was to get my medication at a discount rate.  Self-funded retirees don’t get the card! C*ntlink would have to be most ignorant stressing pack of bastards on this planet! Most of them are recruiits from their own dole queue!

Gregg says:

03:31pm | 01/04/11

Is that spot on as a ninkumpoop Shirley and does that make you a Mrs Ninkumpoop!

Bennymac says:

08:02am | 01/04/11

Rajend
And just how many taxpayer dollars have big business and banks received in Australia?

Rover of North Cooma says:

09:25am | 01/04/11

Bennymac, every bank and financial institution received a taxpayer-funded government guarantee to bail them out if they went under during the GFC.

iansand says:

09:29am | 01/04/11

Mitsubishi

Keep it in the family says:

09:50am | 01/04/11

Howard with Abbott by his side, bailed out his brother’s business so he wouldn’t become bankrupt.

Zaan says:

10:05am | 01/04/11

Yes mainly by ALP governments

James1 says:

10:26am | 01/04/11

I can see it now.  An evil cabal of mega-rich politicians, scheming over cocktails about how they can punish the poor by forcing them to work to provide better lives for their children and contribute something of value to society.  The evil bastards - its all so nefarious.  After all, getting a job and earning more than the dole pays is perhaps the greatest evil this country is currently subject to…

Chris L says:

03:41pm | 01/04/11

@James1 - no less strange an image than the cabal of evil scientists working together in a global conspiracy to make us believe that pollution is a bad thing.

Mexicanbeemer says:

11:40am | 02/04/11

Bennymac!

Corporate Australia does very well out of the Taxpayer, it has been receiving big tax cuts while at the same time outsourcing to certain Asian countries forcing more people onto the welfare system.

The Banking sector was given protection during the GFC and that stimulus package that contributed to Australia avoiding a recession also helped Corporate Australia.

Of course the funny thing is when the corporate sector wants staff where do they go to hire. I see Hays, Dixons, Hudson’s etc and I am sure no one will be surprised that not one of these major employment agencies has either a Job Network contract or Disability Employment Contract but yeah are we serious about assisting people into employment.

O that right we are happy to spend billions on a failed employment system and we wonder why we have a budget deficit.

This whole debate is silly for if we actually serious we would be sending the unemployed to where the employers go for staff and re-direct the billions of dollars wasted on that failed employment system.

auserix says:

02:25pm | 02/04/11

Toyota!!!

jf says:

10:18am | 01/04/11

So, presumably Fiona, you’d like to retire before 65 and let the rest of us work until then and beyond to fund your early retirement.

PTom says:

02:20pm | 01/04/11

@jf
Why not it as there are few that do that now. Retire at 55 the claim the pension at 60.

@Fiona it will be 67+ be the time you or I get near there, because some has work to pay for all the old pensioners.

jf says:

03:16pm | 01/04/11

PTom says:02:20pm | 01/04/11

@jf
Why not it as there are few that do that now. Retire at 55 the claim the pension at 60.

Yeah. What an empty life hey. Imagine doing something with your life that is so meaningless and so unrewarding that you want to stop doing it as soon as possible.

Joan says:

07:56am | 01/04/11

Holly…. so back to work is an extreme policy??? Laugh! Perhaps you fit the mould Tony is talking about.  Better to be a nation of   nose picking couch potatoes instead of fruit pickers/potatoe gatherers.?? Huh!

Ben21 says:

09:02am | 01/04/11

Abbott criticises policy - Means he’s got none himself
Abbott talks about his policies - Means it’s somehow re-hashed pollitical oppurtunism.

We’re all laughing at you.

Duff says:

10:15am | 01/04/11

Actually, raising this issue now might actually backfire in respect of the asylum seeker beat up.  Hard to demonise desperate asylum seekers who’ve given everything to come to Australia to find work while your attacking the lazy youth of Australia.  See Rosie’s comment below for an illustration of this.

David C says:

01:27pm | 01/04/11

I think he is responding to the message from the NSW election, maybe the electorate has tired of the new Labor/Greens experiment and wants to go back to the old values. In a wy he is forcing Julia to establish her line as he builds his.
The greens are ultimate losers either way as has been shown in recent state elections. It seems we are going back to the old divides.

AdamC says:

09:28am | 01/04/11

In my view, it goes even further. The welfare state, as it has been developed, has failed.

Economist says:

11:24am | 01/04/11

Adam C absolute nonsense, read below and learn. Welfare is essential to a functioning democracy. The problem is that you can’t treat welfare on it’s own. Tax reform and welfare reform should go hand in hand.

Hamish says:

12:03pm | 01/04/11

Economist, I agree some form of welfare support is necessary in a functioning liberal democracy, but our current system of cradle to grave welfare enslaves people in hereditary disadvantage, creates immense social problems and just isn’t sustainable in its current form.

Hamish says:

09:06am | 01/04/11

I’d hate to be sent to some exotic country at the taxpayers expense. Seriously, if Tory was in charge, why would you want a job? Travel the world, teach guitar to kids, where do I sign up?

Joan says:

01:27pm | 01/04/11

Yep… teaching guitar to refugees… that`s a laugh… refugees and recent immigrants that I know of are all busy working,,, washing dishes to help get through Uni.  Doing two/three jobs,  working, supermarkets night shifts, deli, help in nursing homes,  cleaning jobs , small market stalls, et.etc. etc. to get going. ... put kids through schooling to do better in life , a life that is on offer here for those that give it a go and do what needs to be done . The immigrants do what has to be done while the Labor Ozie young bludger sits around scratching head….da da…expecting the taxpayer to come up with more to support them.

Benefictus says:

02:09pm | 03/04/11

A pacific solution for dole bludgers? Interesting….

malohi says:

09:01am | 01/04/11

That is part of Tony Abbot’s proposal.
Almost exactly as you suggested.

Paul C says:

08:44am | 01/04/11

True Tim, some people just need a good kick up the ass to get off the unemployment merry-go-round.  I have a mate, who claims he can’t work because of illness - doesn’t stop him from playing touch football 4 nights a week. Been like that for the past 15 years, but the handouts keep comming.

PTom says:

02:44pm | 01/04/11

Incliuding the old age pension? pokies?

Tim says:

03:04pm | 01/04/11

P’Tom,
yes everything.

KH says:

10:54am | 01/04/11

I understand that - however, it discounts the possibility that the ‘jobs in your area’ aren’t jobs that you can do, or won’t employ you.  I get that he is saying ‘you should move to get a job’ but there is little point in telling someone to move from a country town into a city, when you consider that being unemployed, and without any income, they wouldn’t even be able to secure a home, let alone a job, assuming they could even find a rental that isn’t more than the total dole payment per week.  Its an ill conceived idea that is hard to accept without some detail about exactly how he would prevent some people from ending up in a dire situation because he is assuming they are all the same.  I would like to see how he is going to assess people to determine if they are ‘bludgers’ or people who legitimately are trying, but just not being successful for whatever reason.  I guess I just think he is picking on an easy target, when there are far bigger problems to solve that he isn’t offering solutions for because they are too hard, and it would require some real policies.

Hamish says:

09:02am | 01/04/11

The ALP solution to dole bludging? Put them on the DSP. Everybody wins! Yay!

fairsfair says:

09:51am | 01/04/11

Seano, my parents are about to go away for four weeks. They have two children who live in the same town as them. I have to take the dog, feed the cat daily, tend to the chickens and mow 3 acres at least once while they are away. My brother does not have to do anything, why? He hates the dog and is always yelling at it. He can’t be trusted to feed the cat and chooks and he is “too hard” on the ride-on so he is not allowed to use it. I always thought my brother was an idiot, but he is actually smart. Real smart. He has used his formative years to repeatedly fail at every task he has been entrused with by my parents so in times like these (which I’ll admit are rare), he does not have to do anything.

I feel like the stupid one now as I am the one who will double my petrol bill in the next month. Have an over-active Kelpie annoying the crap out of me and my own pet, oh and I’ll get to spend an entire weekend mowing acreage on my own. Fun times.

Though he has a job, my brother has the same attitude as the young, capable individuals that this policy seeks to target. It does not appear to be targeted at everyone - some people do have legitimate reason to need entitlements.

If the my brothers of this world - the lazy, selfish, unmotivated people - are forced to get off their ass and pick some fruit at no expense to the farmer, I say it is good. If they hate the fruit picking for their dole packet, well maybe they’ll take that job at the local shopping centre to get out of it, even if it is not a triple figure salary, leads them nowhere and is simply the lesser of two “evils”.

Seano says:

11:22am | 01/04/11

What a load of bullshit. Seriously. You have a lazy brother. So.

Firstly we don’t have a huge under class of people bludging in luxury on the dole. It’s a furphy, a distraction for the weak minded.

People have to do community service to keep their dole which is already at subsistence level. Good, gets them out of the house and keeps them out of trouble. But taking away the dole forcing them into jobs where they will be incapable and unwilling is stupid, more trouble than it’s worth and potentially dangerous. And how many of the idolent will just turn to crime? I’d rather them sitting home in front of the TV than out trying to steal mine.

To use your analogy why don’t your parents make your brother help out? Because it’s not worth it and they’ve sensibly cut their losses. Common sense. Tony Abbott has no common sense.

fairsfair says:

11:37am | 01/04/11

The Government (and not just the current one) has done what my parents are doing. Ignoring that the problem is a result of their own failures. They make life easy for him by playing along with his “incompetence” because that is just easier to do than cause a blow up. We can’t rock the boat - it may make him unhappy. The unemployed people that this policy is seeking to target (not all of them) are now doing exactly what my brother would do if he was fronted on it - cracking a tanty.

Check our Darragh Scully’s comments on yesterday’s open thread.

Yes my brother is a lazy jerk and he should change himself - so should a lot of people out there who use self created incompetence and unwillingness as an excuse for continuing their preferred lifestyle.

A distraction for the week minded eh? You should take a drive to my part of Australia and see how many people are living a leisurely lifestyle at the tax payers expense. I drive past Centrelink ever day to work and you should just see the amount of people there who are waiting for the doors to open at 8:00am. Its like the Myer Boxing Day Sale each and every morning. Then they migrate to a nice tree on the explanade and while the day away. Half their luck.

Seano says:

02:54pm | 01/04/11

“The Government (and not just the current one) has done what my parents are doing. Ignoring that the problem is a result of their own failures. “

You’re wrong, there’s work for the dole.

“They make life easy for him by playing along with his “incompetence””

I was once a leading hand in a factor where my boss took on a bloke that Centrelink had said must work or lose his benefits. The guy was hopeless. He was in the tea room with his head on the table every morning after an hour. We couldn’t let him near the heavy machines because it was dangerous, I stupid got him to help me carry some wood across the factory but I told him to put his end down first he dropped it from waste height and popped my shoulder out. The bloke was more trouble than he was worth. All he wanted to do was stay at home write computer software (the irony is I later became a very successful software engineer). Paying this bloke a pitance to stay out trouble and stay out of the way would have been well worth it.

“A distraction for the week minded eh? You should take a drive to my part of Australia and see how many people are living a leisurely lifestyle at the tax payers expense. “

That’s what we have statistics for it’s not that many despite the rhetoric.

All Abbott is doing is taking one set of problems and create a new one. That’s not good policy that’s playing politics for cheap votes, Australia deserves better.

Rosie says:

09:41am | 01/04/11

Tory how about for every dole bludger we do a swap with an asylum seeker? The Govt could kill two birds with one stone. Dole bludger housed and taken care of by the Govt, asylum seeker out into society working for a living and paying taxes!

Sorry to digress - Punch why not an article on Gillard’s tough budget punishing taxpayers because she was part of a gang that spent beyond their means. I don’t understand why we are punished when the PM says the economy is great, mining boom, unemployment down etc??

Please explain! Maybe too much wreckless spending????

AdamC says:

12:31pm | 01/04/11

Are you a pseudonym of Acotrel? Funny, normally he doesn’t mind spamming the page with his comments.

Tony of Poorakistan says:

10:16am | 01/04/11

You love working for those Collins St bandits?
 
No accounting for taste, I hated it and I was only on the IT side.

Ben81 says:

12:19pm | 01/04/11

“Centrelink kept trying to force me into crappy factory jobs”
So you take the crappy factory job and continue to look for other work if you want to, end of story.

Bobster says:

12:42pm | 01/04/11

Centrelink spent a great deal of money trying to force me into factory jobs as well.

Forget the fact that I was only out of uni for two weeks before they declared me unemployed and in desperate need of reskilling. Forget the fact that I was actually waiting to start a job in a couple of weeks time because Centrelink decided I needed to cancel that job (the training for which the taxpayers of Australia were kind enough to pay for via HECS) and instead begin training to drive a forklift.

Luckily, that taxpayer funded training meant I was more than capable of tearing the arse out of several Centrelink reps, so you’ll be glad to know their plan to turn me into the country’s most expensive forklift operator failed.

These carrot and stick incentives would be great if they were directed at legitimate dole bludgers, but they’re not. Centrelink staff prefer to make the lives of honest jobseekers difficult because they can’t be bothered with the skilled welfare cheats.

If any government or opposition was serious about reform in this area, the number one priority needs to be ripping down Centrelink and starting again.

James1 says:

02:29pm | 01/04/11

While I was waiting to take up my PhD scholarship, a job placement agency contracted by Centrelink tried to force me into a job at Woolworths.  So you know what I did?

I took the job, and did it as best I could for the three months, before giving them two weeks notice and leaving to do my PhD.  It didn’t hurt me at all (although the Woolworths manager was pretty pissed off), and I actually earned some money while I did it.  I fail to see the issue with taking a crappy job while looking for or waiting on a better one.

Bobster, you could have just started the forklift course to please Centrelink and then left it to start your other job, surely?  It seems like you made it deliberately as hard as possible on yourself for no good reason.

Bobster says:

08:31pm | 01/04/11

For the very reason you described. Why would I want to mess around an employer just to placate a bureaucratic monster? Why would I take a job from someone who needed it and why should I pay for the poxy forklift course? It’s idiotic - especially given this was all within weeks of finishing uni.

They’re hopelessly inefficient and mindlessly officious. They need to go. They’re an outright impediment at this stage.

SRI says:

05:16pm | 02/04/11

I’m not a fan of the “488 bucks a fortnight isn’t enough to survive!” garbage, but your claim is just a little bit exorbitant, don’t you think?

I don’t know who they are, but I’d say they are far from unemployed. Perhaps they’re selling a ‘home grown herbal remedy’ or peddling someone’s battery acid filled ecstasy? Maybe they helped themselves to your nan’s jewelery box last time she went to bingo, and flogged her stuff at the pawn shop?

$488 bucks a fortnight doesn’t buy you a Maloo. It doesn’t put a custom exhaust and air intake on it, and it doesn’t buy a new set of tyres per fortnight. It does pay rent for a clean property, 3 square meals every day, the power bill and a new shirt every now and then so you don’t look like a bloody grub going to an interview.

It isn’t enough to buy a carton of beer or a night at the pub though. It certainly isn’t enough to afford to smoke on.

Bobster says:

10:56am | 01/04/11

Moving to high unemployment areas to justify unemployment? Qualify and quantify, please.

Mayday says:

11:57am | 01/04/11

Give him two weeks to find a job but get two weeks rent in advance NOW.
At the end of the two weeks I would suggest you pack up all his stuff and load it into his car.
Due to the high price of petrol he can use the car as his home for awhile because as an unemployed person he will be lucky to find any share accommodation willing to take him.
Personal responsibility…........not your responsibility, good luck!

Elphaba says:

12:13pm | 01/04/11

@Kordez, can he pay the rent even if he’s not working?  Or is he going to start hitting you up to cover it?

Kordez says:

12:44pm | 01/04/11

@Elphaba, Centrelink will pay his rent.. It’s $100 bucks a week including everything but food. He’s then left with just over 300 bucks for the fortnight to spend however he wants. The problem is, for the last two days he hasn’t left the house. Therefore electricity, water, gas and general wear and tear on my belongings increases.
What pisses me off the most is that he had an honest job with a small business close to home, but because he didn’t like reporting to a 19 year old that made something of his life at an early age, he threw in the towel.
It’s a shame that this kind of mentality exists, and we are almost rewarding it by the mere fact an easier option (Centerlink) is available to you within a short period of time.

Aussie says:

01:54pm | 01/04/11

My suggestion is that he move out as soon as possible. The poor man is sharing a room with an arrogant, violent, Coalition supporting, reformed smoker.

Elphaba says:

02:09pm | 01/04/11

Fair enough Kordez, I can understand where you’re coming from.  I only let flatties move in who are employed and make enough money to cover the rent.

It sounds like you mind is made up to me, so maybe you need to give him is marching orders.  Is there any redeeming qualities that could make you put up with the situation for another couple of months?  Maybe he needs a little time to find a job and will come good.  Although, there are plenty of flatmates out there and not many share properties, so finding someone should be a cinch and not leave you out of pocket.

It is a shame that mentality exists.  I quit a job once a few years ago without a new one to go to, because I was so misreable.  I got another one 2 weeks after though - it’s not something I’d do again any time soon…

James1 says:

03:02pm | 01/04/11

If he is a decent room mate, and pays the rent, I would keep him.  Given that any replacement has the potential to be a terrible one, a known (decent) quantity is better than an unknown (potentially not decent) quantity.

The morality or desirability of working a for a living or voting Labor aside, the application of pure logic dictates the course of action outlined above.

Economist says:

11:26am | 01/04/11

No the vast majority of welfare recipients can;t find work, because there is non available. Read my comments below.

Zaan says:

02:47pm | 01/04/11

Rubbish I have only ever been out of work when I chose to be. I have been an office cleaner, a fast food worker, sewing machinist, a donut maker in BiLo.
Took it upon myself to get some training at my own expense and became a medical receptionist, had never done it before thought I’d give it a go.
I undertook further training and I achieved a certificate 1&2 in phlebotomy.
I now work in a specialist cardiology practice.
I am 45 and started in medical only 3 years ago. All it took was for me to get off my bum and have a go.
So don’t tell me there is no work available it just takes a bit of effort.

Adam says:

02:50pm | 02/04/11

I agree with a community or military based national service scheme. I have seen what sometimes walks into Defence Recruiting, some applicants think it is all like Call of Duty & simply do not have what it takes to undertake military service.

I’m sure someone who can’t perform the duties of a soldier or a labourer due to physical or mental handicaps could do something like lollipop duty at schools, or assist the elderly.

My personal belief is that Australians must undertake their national service for the allotted time, be it military or civilian based, before they are eligible to receive Centrelink welfare payments. It may help some people get off their couch & away from their video games console, long enough to give them some direction & contribute to society.

If they then choose to bludge after their national service, well that is their choice at the end of the day. They will be the ones to ultimately suffer from it in their old age.

stephen says:

10:14pm | 01/04/11

So why do you want to work ?
Um, so I can buy a car.
And why do you want a car ?
Um, so I can get to work.
The only reason you go to work every day is because you and your ilk is too stupid to rid yourself(s) of bad habits.
I suggest you pay more tax.
Just so’s it’s easier for youth on the dole to live a little easier on a hundred and fifty bucks a bloody week.

PS And lock your car.

Lucas says:

11:10am | 01/04/11

Spot on Anna. I lost my job a few years ago and the only job I could get after that was cleaning the pub which i didn’t really enjoy. But I have a strong work ethic and treated it as a challenge and did it as good as I possibly could so I could afford to keep up my rent stay off the dole, stay sane and feel good that I could pay my own way. If it means cleaning a pub to achieve that then cleaning the pub is my choice. More people need to take responsibility for their situations and not expect to be helped out for laziness. I used to often have people say to me, “how do you do it, must be horrible cleaning the pub” meanwhile these same people sit in the pub and bludge off other people and complain they have no money.
Tony Abbotts proposals are good and sensible, like most of his ideas. He is a decent hard working bloke, does volunteer work, has long been involved in the Aboriginal community and their issues, lives a healthy lifestyle, is intelligent and listens to the community. I think he gets an unfair rap in the media and unfortunately it seems to stick.

Missy says:

11:13am | 01/04/11

Why Anna? Just because you have a job that you obviously don’t like doesn’t mean everyone should have to suffer as you do.  Perhaps you should have made better choices earlier on in order to end up somewhere that makes you happy and then you wouldn’t be quite so bitter and angry.

Missy says:

11:13am | 01/04/11

Why Anna? Just because you have a job that you obviously don’t like doesn’t mean everyone should have to suffer as you do.  Perhaps you should have made better choices earlier on in order to end up somewhere that makes you happy and then you wouldn’t be quite so bitter and angry.

Anna C says:

12:47pm | 01/04/11

Missy says:11:13am | 01/04/11 said “Why Anna? Just because you have a job that you obviously don’t like doesn’t mean everyone should have to suffer as you do. ..then you wouldn’t be quite so bitter and angry.”  Missy, I hate to have to break it to you but most adults don’t love their work but they work to support their families and pay their bills.  It’s very rare to find someone who truly enjoys their work.  I’m assuming that you are very young and like a lot of Generation Y people think that they should only do work that they love.  Good luck to you but most of your generation will end up working in boring jobs just like the rest of us.  Why else do you think I waste my time posting comments here?

Vince says:

02:52pm | 01/04/11

Exactly!  Most of these so-called “retirees” are perfectly capable of getting off their saggy arses and doing some work for their pension!  NO, they’d rather sit around sipping sherry and listening to Doris Day.

Daniel says:

09:09am | 02/04/11

Baby boomers are whats wrong with this country.  Too many of them sitting back in thier 3 bedroom homes they paid 20,000 for not bothering to save for thier retirement and sucking up our taxes lazing around on government pensions.

Michael says:

11:49am | 01/04/11

Been there myself, but you sound like you have good work ethic and no doubt you will eventually get a job. You are not Abbotts target.

Economist says:

11:59am | 01/04/11

Just to add another dimension. DSP costs around $13B, NewStart $7B. Family Tax Benefit A&B I believe is over $15B, Childcare Benefit/Rebate while a great policy costs $3B. Yet this middle class welfare isn’t being scrutinised. Are these people bludgers? No.  Because it assists working families. What’s needed is changes to the tax system to get the tax free threshold above the cost of welfare payment to provide incentives to work.

AdamC says:

12:14pm | 01/04/11

Economist, this is a pretty weak effort. Nobody is suggesting that there are enough job vacancies at any particular point in time to give a job to every NewStart or DSP recipient tomorrow. I also note that I do not use the term ‘dole bludger’, so you do not have to convince me whether or not a large proportion of welfare recipients would qualify as being one.

I think your link between providing welfare and reducing incarceration is problematic at best. (Are there any stats on this, or is this your assumption?) Actually, social dysfunction seems to follow welfare dependency around like a crazy stalker. And Tony Abbott is not advocating beating anyone’s ego into the ground. It is about encouraging and assisting people to find work.

I do agree, however, that work for the dole should be scrapped. It is a costly, make-work measure implemented solely for political reasons.

Ben81 says:

12:15pm | 01/04/11

“Gee I wish people would do their research before espousing their views based on ignorance.”
Quickly googling some random links doesn’t give you the credibility you think it does, “economist”.

Your first one is based entirely on interviews with 52 people, and on the others…what’s your point?  It can’t be done for free so we shouldn’t do it?  Seems pretty cheap to me, and comparing it to the cost of putting people in prison is just weird.
You don’t have to go much further than the ABS to see that there’s tens of thousands of people not actively looking for work for various reasons and are taking a handout anyway and treating it as a normal income and that’s a fact.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/6220.0Main Features3Sep 2010?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=6220.0&issue=Sep 2010#=&view;=

Just one example that stands out -
“In September 2010, there were almost 5 million people (2 million men and 3 million women) aged 15 years and over without marginal attachment to the labour force. Of those without marginal attachment:

  85% reported that they ‘Did not want to work’, or ‘Did not know’ if they wanted to work;
  7% ‘Wanted to work but were not actively looking for work and were not available to start work within four weeks’; “

Why didn’t you post links to stats like that, couldn’t twist it into some kind of argument against Tony Abbott and the Liberal party?

Hamish says:

12:44pm | 01/04/11

Economist, I think you’ll find a hell of a lot of people who end up going to jail are on welfare. In fact, I think you’ll find there’s an extremely strong correlation. So, suggesting welfare stops people from becoming criminals is a bit of a stretch. Also, work for the dole was never supposed to be cheap. It is designed to try and give people on the dole some sense of structure in their lives and to maintain some degree of work ethic. Sure it isn’t perfect, but having literally hundreds of thousands of people sitting around on welfare with not much to do isn’t great for society. Just check out some of the remote aboriginal communities we’ve all been reading about lately. Not only are they crap places to live, but there’s also a hell of a lot of crime, regardless of the welfare.

Economist says:

03:41pm | 01/04/11

@Ben81, denigrating geniune research you disagree with as “just Googled” it is nonsense. I was providng links to government research not some blog comment.

No the research is not based on 52 respondents. Read the footnotes, the percentages are based on a survey of thousands of job seekers.

AS for your 5 million figure. Yes this is the figure of Not in Labour Force it’s not included in unemployment stats because not everyone is looking for work. It consists of stay at home mums, students, self funded retires and some income support recipients. Using this without understanding its origins is undermines your own credibilty. Mine’s intact thanks.

@AdamC yes there is a difference between stock and flow, but it still highlights the key point that there is not enough jobs for those that want one. Let alone when you add the complexity of local demand and supply issues. Just because you weren’t referring to them as bludgers doesn’t mean your like minded comrades weren’t.

Of course there is a correlation between welfare and incarceration. Anecdotally though I’d argue welfare reduces the crime. Look at countries without reasonable welfare system and incarceration rates and crime levels.

@Hamish I am not against Work for the Dole, forced participation etc. I’m all for it were there are clear options avaialble for these people to use. You can’t have participation requirements without education alternatives, encouraging volunteer work, wage subsdised etc. You have to invest money, but as a tax payer are you prepared to pay more than a dole payment to get these people working. I am, but I’d expect many of you would object to say spending $100,000 on training wage subsidies etc in one hit to get someone of welfare where there is a risk of them returning.

Darragh Scully says:

03:51pm | 01/04/11

Wow. Thats an interesting point Economist about the number of available positions and the number unemployed.
We should post posters of those stats in Indonesia, China, Shrilanka, Afghanistan, Africa, Ireland and the Cheque Republic.

Incidently Id like to know how many of those advertised postions are allready held down by someone and just being readvertised as a matter of Government Policy requirements. Do they shuffle the positions around to avoid being called Worthwhile Job Hogs.

Its also alarming to see that because many of these unemployed people have the attitude that they do not want to work that the Government is seriously considering importing more labor hire from Vanuatu etc to pick fruit. 5000 thousand of them.

Not only is keeping people in prison, some of the Magistrates have the idea that its good to send some of the criminals away for 10 years at about 40000 a year per offender for crimes often not amounting to more than a few unpaid fines for speeding, or minor fraud less than 10000 (though its ussually a few offences in before prison). I think the highly antisocial and violent offender have to be housed in prisons till they are atleast 28 and its best they get socialised as best as can be while they are there. But the Spoiled Identity and the Unrealistic Life Goals dillema seem to be comming to a head.

A new city in Margeret River seems like the best option. Its got fresh water, lots of coal, a great lifestyle, great food production potential,  all you have to do is Bribe the WA government with a higher share of the GST and some doughnuts.

Ben81 says:

11:48am | 02/04/11

If it didn’t tell you anything at all about the attitude that’s clearly out there in a lot of people I doubt anything will, Economist.  Unless Labor starts talking about it I suppose.  Even if only a few percent of those people are on unemployment benefits, and I doubt that’s the extent of it, that’s just not good enough.
Any yes, I see can see that your report there is in part structured on a centrelink survey from 10 years ago.

Tam says:

12:56pm | 01/04/11

Nice to see the racists have found the keyboard this morning and been waved through by the News Ltd moderators.

Squeeze says:

02:10pm | 01/04/11

“middle class welfare” Yep.  And there’s the standardised response.  Left right cha cha cha.  Right left cha ch a cha.

The Howard government basically said: fine you want a welfare state, lets have a welfare state. Here are the benefits for families.  Your move. Labor didn’t know what hit them. Still probably doesn’t.  Or at least it doesn’t know how to deal with it.

And here is why. Australia taxes my labor-4-G&S transactions at 40+ % for decades then gives me a chunk back for about 5 years when I need it to raise my single child. That’s not wefare.  That’s a forced savings plan.

Like bluring the lines between military and industry.  Like blurring the line between equity and equality.  Howard blurred the line between welfare and a forced savings plan. 

If Labor wants big government, they’ve got it. Government that is more involved in managing the lives of the middle. Don’t like the flavour?  Too timid to change it? You could just do what youalways do and rack up the debt. Or, enter the GST increase with benefits: the carbon price/tax?

For all of you who want to see what the Federal government does with it’s $300B odd every year go here: http://finance.gov.au/publications/final-budget-outcomes/index.html

Rocky’s correct. Here’s the 09-10 breakdown of distributions:
Aged $30.3Bn
Veterans & Dependents $6Bn
Disability $16Bn
Families with kids $29.5Bn
Unemployed $7Bn
Students $3.4Bn
Other $1.2Bn

But is it all “welfare”? Good luck with that rebranding exercise.

On the whole.  Can we be doing better with the resources that we have?

Waste is waste.  Irrespective of whether you do it by staying at home watching TV or doing a job that adds little benefit to Australia. That includes white collar workers in CBD towers, public servants as much as any of the let’s say, mischievously unemployed.

Duff says:

02:30pm | 01/04/11

Hah, I was thinking the same thing myself.  Here we have Abbott’s two main policies: (1) give money to mothers to leave work so they’ll, you know, return; and (2) take away money from those who are out of work to, you know, make them get back in.

Bizarre.

Marcus says:

12:37pm | 01/04/11

It worked for me bouncing from one job to another until I got one I reallly enjoyed. At least while I was bouncing around I had stories to tell at the end of my day, I connected with other people who were working and even made some good friends, had a lot of laughs and some money to go and share a beer. People need to realise that being unemployed is not the norm or right way to live. Everyone who is capable must work, it’s ethical. Doesn’t matter if it’s digging holes, you get paid to do it.  You shouldn’t say no to paid work if your unemployed.

ian says:

01:39pm | 01/04/11

I agree with you Marcus…trying too correct is creating a bigger problem.

Kika says:

01:20pm | 01/04/11

Most of Europe, I would think. We got the idea from the Poms.

Robbo says:

02:03pm | 01/04/11

When you read crap like this its no wonder employers won’t hire a Uni graduate with multiple degrees to make sandwiches.
They live in a fantasy world and always know best.
Abbott is not talking about “wiping out the weak species” he is trying to empower people by giving them a purpose to get up every day.
If they don’t like picking up rubbish etc they have every opportunity to better educate themselves and get a better job like everyone else.

darragh scully says:

02:25pm | 01/04/11

No its not a fantasy world. Its a macro theory of modern politics.
There are a number of people who do infact try hard not to find a job.
However its not right to make life to hard for everyone else trying to find a job or go to school just because 1: A bunch of extreme puritins decided that everyone other than them is lazy, 2: Neo puritans often the offspring of Said puritans acting like facists so they can also live the high life, 3: Opposition Party Leaders who know that getting tough on stuff appeals to the masses, who suffer from ridiculous opposition dissorder, make promises they just cant keep and frankly just dont work.

You keep telling yourself that your Lay Persons Cashed up Bogan Lifestyle is for everyone because thats what keeps the world spinning.
Right on

I have watched em rise and I have watched them fall.

darragh scully says:

02:14pm | 01/04/11

Wrong. Most bosses think you are expendable. Most employers will make sure that if your the type of employee that is mobile you will be out the door and be replaced before your first 3 months is over and you will get the blame on the seperation certificate.

St. Michael says:

03:04pm | 01/04/11

This account, Kika, reminds me very distinctly of Peter Sawyer’s 1980s expose on DSS (Centrelink of the time) named “Dolebludging: A Taxpayer’s Guide”.

I am not saying that you were bludging.  Far from it.  Rather his pertinent observation, as a former DSS claims assessor, that with every new stupid rule or regulation they put on jobseekers applying for Centrelink, it winnows out a few more genuine cases and just requires the bludgers to tell a few more lies, which they’re by definition happy to do anyway.

Jade (the other one) says:

02:26pm | 01/04/11

Why should struggling middle-class people who have contributed much to society in the form of taxes and consumption be punished while we sit there and cry for the poor bloody dole bludgers?

MnM says:

02:47pm | 01/04/11

Glad I’m not the only one who’s noticed the Soviet parallel. Next he’ll be proposing all academics be sent off to work in production.

darragh scully says:

02:48pm | 01/04/11

Once the Fibre starts rolling out, there will be calls from Tony Abbot to put single mothers, amputees, barred professionals, indigenous and homeless people on the side of the roads digging trenches while getting some certificate that will guarantee them a place in University. And no one will appreciate it while they kick back and stream Question Time live to their dunnies from their wireless routers while they take a big crap. 
All the people in the trenches will then complain about Broadband.

M. Python says:

02:43pm | 01/04/11

I had to get up in the morning at ten o’clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won’t believe you.

darragh scully says:

03:05pm | 01/04/11

I think your right about that. Having unrealistic goals is more often a reason some of these people are on welfare. Though these days you need a licence to drive a car or truck, or run a piece of machinery etc. In many cases there are no jobs picking up rubbish or cleaning that you do not need a Police Clearance for. These days then its unrealistic to think that you can be cleaner even unless you have no Fines to pay and have no problems with the police. Which is very difficult to achieve unless your well protected. This is the problem with long term unemployment. They are more exposed to criminal elements such as drugs and violence, which has led them to be institutionalised, heavilly fined, and they must remain clear of the law for ten years to get a position as a cleaner once they have applied for spent convictions. Many of them wont pay there fines out of there dole money and get slugged again when it ends up at fines enforcement. But they often still drive around susspended.

And they dont let migrants into the country that have security clearance issues. So its not likely that the migrants they are bringing in to pick the fruit will steal the fruit, will fail to turn up to work or hurt themselves at work while being high on Pot, Crack or Smack.

National Service Would be more appropriate for these types of people.
Lots of exercise, removal from the main population to a protected environment where they can learn the importance of hard work and get a minimum level of literacy and numeracy. The trouble is finding people who could run such and organisation.
Its not like we are short of Deployment situations around the country for such a task force either.

Go figure.

Jade says:

03:29pm | 01/04/11

@Darragh scully: I am not well-protected, yet I have managed to get through life with only one traffic fine. Never any trouble with the police, and I lived in one of the worst areas of Queensland for crime.

There are plenty of jobs you don’t need a police clearance for. There are several restaurants constantly advertising for dishwashers, and my dad’s work is always looking for people to sweep the floor and clean the toilets (construction workers are filthy). Yet when I have offered these jobs to the unemployed that I have met, they turn their noses up with a sneer.

Abbattoirs out west simply cannot get people to work in them, to the point that they are hiring people from overseas, at great cost to themselves.

As I have stated previously, if you are living off the work of another (like welfare recipients) there is no job that is too beneath you. Or too dirty. Or too hard. If you are not willing to take the first job you are offered, you don’t deserve welfare.

darragh scully says:

04:16pm | 01/04/11

@Jade. Right on. My situation is that I have worked alot of Crap Jobs. Now when I go to interviews and selection panels I have to explain about my willingness to take all these survival jobs and Ultimatley they say, you just dont have the right experience. What I do have however is One Fused vertebrae, loss of flexibility in my legs, and I am in need of two shoulder reconstructions. I am kind of lucky I can still walk.

Its said around the place that there is always the Upside of showing your not lazy and you have a good work ethic that can be juxtaosed against the Flipside that your not going to be able say you have the right kind of experience for the job though you can always claim a case for Transferable Skills, however the employers arent often interested. They take the best fit.

Then you also have other issues like organised crime. In some cases they have to spilt shifts up so that Rival Factions arent having brawls on sites.

The Journal “Peasant Studies” is full of Articles that explore the Hardy Type such as yourself who seem to work very hard to empowring themselves. Often very realisic types such as yourself will have no time for other peoples opinions. I bet you are good at making those tough decisions no one else likes to make to.

I to have a university degree, I to have a number of certifications and licencess. I to have a number of survival job situations on my CV. Everything from cleaning toilets for well below award wages, shoveling concrete around, door to door sales, charity collections, tele sales, road sweeping, delivery driving, fork lift driving, sample prep, dish washer kitchen hand work. Im still here, only just. I feel that these positions are beneath me and Im Glad I have a welfare payment that will help me to concentrate on finding something that is a little more respectable, has better working conditions and better pay with better benefits such as a health and dental plan as well as four weeks holiday with pay, 10 days sick days, as well as compasionate days off with pay and Im all for the increase of 9% to 12% for super but the current rate of 9% is fine with me.

So you can take your Fantasy of being a battle hardened war hero and go fuck yourself. I deserve better because I am better and thats why Ive got so many knives stuck in my back.

john says:

04:16pm | 01/04/11

“There are plenty of jobs you don’t need a police clearance for. There are several restaurants constantly advertising for dishwashers, and my dad’s work is always looking for people to sweep the floor and clean the toilets (construction workers are filthy). Yet when I have offered these jobs to the unemployed that I have met, they turn their noses up with a sneer. “

Dishwasher - must have police clearance.
Cleaner - must have police clearance (and breasts).

Try again.

Jade (the other one) says:

12:21pm | 04/04/11

@John - someone better alert the people at Conviction Kitchen then. And all the people in my suburb who have numerous assault charges of varying degrees, drugs possession charges and the like that they shouldn’t be working in the jobs they have.

And yes, just so you know, they all told their employers about their convictions. Somehow the employers didn’t seem aware of the need for police checks…

john says:

02:06pm | 05/04/11

You know “Conviction Kitchen” is a TV program ?
It’s not real you know…

ALL employees of licensed venues must pass a police check BY LAW.

Please stop talking out of your backside.

stephen says:

09:59pm | 01/04/11

That’s right, you tell’em.
(What I like about the middle classes, though, is that they always pull their weight : they certainly get their full share of the welfare cheque, and all they gotta do is keep breeding. )

PS Hell, I’d do it for nothing, and I don’t even have a conscience.