Any proposed tax will initially concern people. Markets and the prospect of competition often scare people.

Tony Abbott at yesterday's anti-carbon tax rally. Picture: AP

Sacrifice is always attractive and acceptable in the abstract and gets less appealing once defined. These are hurdles that any reform government must face, but reason and logic eventually prevail.

Global warming is an existential threat that the world must face up to. All nations can find an excuse to delay citing the alleged lack of action by others. Delay and denial are arguments that go hand in hand. Eventually the scientists will be proved right, and you won’t be able to find those who preach denial with such conviction.

The combined effects of climate change, resource depletion, food security and energy security will ensure global cooperation and diplomacy because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. Policy makers must trust the scientific consensus, must commit to diplomacy, and must take domestic action in order to pressure other countries to take action.

The public and political commentators have quite fairly concentrated on examining the Government’s proposals to transition to a low carbon economy - but the Liberal’s policy of Direct Action has barely been examined in the public mind.

Direct Action has so far been a dream for the Liberals’ marketing team. An attractive slogan that sounds both plausible and attractive in recycled sound bites. The Liberals are praying that this is all the attention that Direct Action receives, hoping that people glance at the policy but don’t examine it.

Direct Action is a direct handout to the worst polluters in Australian industry.

The more carbon dioxide you pump into the atmosphere and the more technologically backward an industry is the greater the handout you can receive under the Liberals’ policy. It is policy that will hand at least $1.2 billion per annum to polluting industries until 2020.

It is a direct handout, a direct subsidy and a direct windfall to the very industries that create the problem in the first place.

There won’t be a dollar for those companies who are doing the right thing and reducing their carbon footprint. Companies like News Corporation won’t receive a brass razoo under the Liberals because they have already acted to become a zero emissions company. The Liberals Direct Action has no capacity to recognise positive action the way a market mechanism does.

The Liberals rhetoric asserts that Direct Action is a based on market mechanisms when in fact it’s based on crony capitalism. The impact of massive subsidies will distort and retard markets, especially energy markets. Market distortions will be created as a Liberal Government hands some companies massive financial assistance, thus creating both winners who get assistance and losers who don’t get assistance.

No prudent company will invest millions of dollars in shareholders’ capital if their competitors might receive massive financial windfalls from a Liberal Government. Direct Action is sure to create, foster and encourage corporate rent seeking as companies work out they have a financial incentive to link future investment to government subsidy.

In short Direct Action will cost a fortune, up to $30 billion, and it will be very inefficient in reducing carbon dioxide emissions.  This lack of effectiveness will fuel uncertainty within the corporate world about the intentions of future governments.

Corporate titans know that eventually governments will turn to a price on carbon through a market because it’s the most efficient way of making the transition to a low carbon economy. It is a certainty that Australia will end up with a price on emitting carbon dioxide even under the Liberals; it is a certainty that the longer we leave it the higher that price will be.

The distortions and uncertainties that Direct Action will create will delay energy producers making large long-term investments in energy markets. Direct Action will create a policy-induced investment strike while a future Liberal government prevaricates and doles out public monies to big polluters.

Energy producers will opt for lower cost, small and less efficient energy production under the Liberals and this ultimately will mean higher costs for consumers and higher carbon emissions in the economy. Direct Action under the Liberals will bring the worst of both worlds.

The final flaw in the Liberals’ Direct Action plan is that there is very little protection of taxpayer interest built into the policy. We have no guarantee that our money will be well spent, efficiently allocated or fairly distributed. The policy briefly refers to an ‘expert panel’ who will manage the fund and who will penalise companies who don’t comply with the terms of the grants allocated.

No mention of who might be on the expert panel and what qualifications they might need to have, no mention of oversight and accountability, no mention on how many climate change sceptics they might appoint to the expert panel. In terms of accountability Direct Action is an accident waiting to happen, an accident Australia should well avoid.

If Australia turns its back on scientific expertise, rational thought and market mechanisms we will all be the poorer for it. The Liberals under Abbott have turned their backs on Howard’s market reform legacy and embraced the economics of B.A Santamaria. Direct Action would be a disaster for Australia and only delay the inevitability of carbon pricing.

283 comments

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    • acotrel says:

      04:48am | 24/03/11

      ‘The Liberals rhetoric asserts that Direct Action is a based on market mechanisms when in fact it’s based on crony capitalism. ‘
      So it’s BUSINESS AS USUAL with the Liberal Party? - WHAT’S NEW?

    • Phil says:

      06:37am | 24/03/11

      acotrel. Tell us again just how much the climate change will be reversed with the carbon tax?
      What will the temperature be in say 50 years if we do and dont bring in this tax?
      Unless this tax hurts the punters it wont change habits, therefore no compensation should be paid to anyone. Would you still champion a Carbon Tax and ETS if you got no compensation?

    • Super D says:

      07:12am | 24/03/11

      Actually the crony capitalism that is the 20% renewable energy target is supported by both sides.

    • Joan says:

      07:28am | 24/03/11

      High priestess Juliar and Gaia Man Flannery ..willing to sacrifice manufacturing and jobs on Juliar`s sacrificial table fueled by Julia Big Carbon Tax on everything in Australia.  Everyone knows scientists tncluded,  that Juliars Big Carbon Tax on everything will not change world CO2 levels.  A fact..

    • b says:

      07:43am | 24/03/11

      Acotrel, good to see you follow in the footsteps of your comrade Stalin, sorry JuLIAR. Your are a full on habitual liar too.

    • John A Neve says:

      08:53am | 24/03/11

      Phil,

      Are your questions really relevant?
      I doubt you our I will be here in “50 years”, that’s why you and those like you don’t care.
      One can only hope your children and grandchildren remember you well.

    • LC says:

      09:10am | 24/03/11

      So acotrel, can you tell us what the global temperature changes will be 50 years if we:
      A. Bring in the Tax
      B. Don’t bring in the tax, but follow Tony’s plan
      C. Do nothing

      I eagerly await your response.

    • L. says:

      09:30am | 24/03/11

      As I have said before…

      The “pro-tax” people want us to believe that “science” is settled, then expect us to have “faith” this tax will actually accomplish something without tell us by how much.

      Talk about having your cake and eating it as well.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      09:46am | 24/03/11

      Hey LC,

      How much longer will a smoker live if they quit?

    • nihonin says:

      09:47am | 24/03/11

      AGW supporters = AGW Scam Deniers, thought I’d throw that out there, as I don’t deny the climate changes, it changes every minute of every day.

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:11am | 24/03/11

      It’s not a matter if you agree with Climate Change or not!

      It’s an economic decision and looking at this carbon tax by Labor I have to ask:

      Is it worth spending $12.5 Billion or $2550 / household /year?

      Is it worth your electricity bill to increase by $625/ household / year?

      Is it worth your fuel bill to rise by $1300 /household / year?

      Is it worth the cost of manufacturing items made in Australia to be so overpriced that what is left of them moves overseas?

      Is it worth the loss of jobs this would incur?

      Is it worth these costs for a saving of 0.0073% of global emissions?

    • L. says:

      10:18am | 24/03/11

      “How much longer will a smoker live if they quit? “

      Not a good analogy.

      If a smoker stops smoking they can tell you exactly how much nicotine stops going into their system down to the milligram.

      Gillard cannot tell us how much carbon won’t be pumped into the atmosphere even to the nearest 1,000,000 tonnes.

    • L. says:

      10:18am | 24/03/11

      “How much longer will a smoker live if they quit? “

      Not a good analogy.

      If a smoker stops smoking they can tell you exactly how much nicotine stops going into their system down to the milligram.

      Gillard cannot tell us how much carbon won’t be pumped into the atmosphere even to the nearest 1,000,000 tonnes.

    • Phil says:

      10:36am | 24/03/11

      John you are correct in that I may not be around in 50 years, although I hope to be as I am only 42, but you are probably right.
      I dont have an issue with taking action on climate change, to give the planet the benefit of the doubt.
      What I and many others agree upon is that a carbon tax in Australia will make SFA difference, given that even if we closed Australia down tomorrow China and India will within 6-12 months have increased their CO2 output by more than our reduction.
      If CO2 is the big nasty, why pay anyone compensation for spewing it out whether that is from their car or by using electricity. See the big poluters dont produce CO2 for nothing they do so for base load power. They dont all use that themselves.
      What if they just turned off the generators and we go back to log fires to keep warm and candles along with a log hot water system.
      Please explain, but I bet you cant, how paying compensation is going to alter peoples way of life and change energy consumption patterns?
      Why not investigate nuclear?
      I bet you and many of the other pro carbon tax supporters have not spent your own cash for solar power and the like and many got free pink batts rather than paying for them out of their own cash. Therefore they are hypocrites.

    • PTom says:

      11:24am | 24/03/11

      @Phil,
      Carbon price alters Company patterns. Example AGL can produces electricity at $3kwh and EnergyAustralia can only produce the electricity at $3.6kwh. Which one would you choose?

    • John A Neve says:

      11:45am | 24/03/11

      Phil,
      I’ll answer your questions first; yes, I do have sola power and yes I do have insulation, both walls and roof. I also had roof insulation 40 years ago, it was polystyrene beads in aluminium bags.

      But back to the topic; per head of population we are one of the worst polluters in the world, I believe we rank 8th and 14th, but as always I stand to be corrected.
      If we all stand back and wait for some one else to start nothing will change.
      Over the years I have paid more and more tax, I whinge, but I still drink, drive a car, eat well and enjoy life. Taxes and death are givens, I’d like to think I gave the next generation an even break. What about you?

    • Phil says:

      12:24pm | 24/03/11

      John. Good to see you have spent your own cash on those items. Like you I have spent a considerable amount over $ 15000 on solar/insulation and am about to put a new AC unit which will consume much less electricity at a further cost of $ 12000, this is turn will cut my long term power usage which will mean I have to pay less in the long run.
      I do notice you omitted to state how paying anyone compensation will alter their usage of energy.
      I also wonder who on here as carbon tax advocates is likely to be compensated. I am trying to assist the future, I employ over well over people. I set up trusts for my children who are still in primary and will continue to assist them. Last summer electricity bill was much less after NSW massive increases
      I modified my lifestyle as neccessary to reduce my impact, I got rid of the V8 and bought an energy efficient diesel, but I fail to see how paying anyone compensation is going to alter their habits. I would say that well over 50% of people being compensated would have voted labor and some based on the lie about no carbon tax/price.
      Put simply the PM should take this to the people, either a referrendum or election to determine whether a price should be put on carbon dioxide emissions.
      The per head of polulation is I have heard due to the fact we are debited with the carbon produced from all exports, therefore China and India who buy our coal debit some of that to our ledger.

    • Surely says:

      03:00pm | 24/03/11

      Phil,
      Its not meant to change consumer patterns by hurting individuals its meant to change the habits of companys.This has been explained many times. Argue wether that will work or not see but at least understand the idea.

    • Rick says:

      03:28pm | 24/03/11

      So true…....Hey Tony turn around an look at the sign behind you….I heard someone today saying Tony’s got the mouth of a singer….....big enough to put his foot in it.

    • LC says:

      05:10pm | 24/03/11

      @Austin

      That depends how long and how many ciggarettes they smoked.

      And that is in any way related to the question I posed how?

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:40pm | 24/03/11

      @ John A Neve Do you realize that after this tax costs us $2550 / household /year and only reduces our share of world carbon usage by only 0.0073% and we will still be classified as the 8th largest user / capita by CSIRO figures of 17.5 metric ton/ capita . 

      What is even scarier the Department of Climate Change and the Garnaut report rank us with their figure of 28.1 metric ton / capita as the No1 polluter and if we use their figures this tax will cost us $3700 / household / year to save this 0.0073% of global emissions.

      I think the next generation will be happier about having employment than having to buy everything from overseas because we destroyed the last of our manufacturing industry with this stupid tax.

    • John A Neve says:

      07:41pm | 24/03/11

      Phil,
      This may be out of context, if so I am sorry. But in answer to your question; people just won’t move without some leverage, either the stick or the carrot. As I have posted in another place, I don’t know if Julia or Tony is right. But I don’t believe we can afford to do nothing.
      If we have to bribe or flog people to get some action, so be it.

    • acotrel says:

      03:36am | 25/03/11

      @Phil
      ‘acotrel. Tell us again just how much the climate change will be reversed with the carbon tax?’
        Who do you think I am? - Tony Abbott ?  I don’t have a crystal ball, and I don’t just dream something up to suit the situation for political purposes!

    • Phil says:

      09:20am | 25/03/11

      John and acotrel
      I agree something needs to be done. What is what is currently being negotiated. Can we wait till the rest of the world does something, given the very modest impact our reductions will make, (even if we get a 5% reduction for Australia, China and India wil spew this out to the North extra in about 2 weeks me thinks.
      Will this hurt Australian jobs and industries, yes it will. Yes BHP, Bluescope make steel to make money, that is an undeniable fact, but they make locally to order. Given the high (in comparison to China/India wages companies will just export jobs to where labour in cheaper and no carbon tax, similarly with new mines. Is that good for local CO2 output, yes, bad for our economy and when the mining boom ends, say 10-20 years or at least slows, there will not be the manufacturing jobs locally and industry to employ Australians.
      Surely, as I said above companies dont just make things for themselves, if you think that just going green will save our economy, I direct you to various European Green Socialist regimes who are just about broke.
      Companies make for individuals, in my opinion ones income level does not determine whether they have CO2 emiting items, although in some cases it does. Therefore they should tax individuals who consume. By the way other than by a small power and fuel charge, my companies will not be that effected by the tax, but it will likely cost me
      $ 2-4000 a year in carbon taxes. Yes I can afford this I will just make adjustments to my costs to earn more, but I wonder how many once the tax goes up to $ 50 a Ton and an ETS comes in and it is dearer and the compensation does not kept pace with inflation/increases in the value of permits etc, how many households will get on. I will provide a home for my daughters each plus plenty so they will be ok, but I worry for their friends how they will get on.
      Perhaps this is part of the social engineering to make home ownership for upcoming generations completely unatainable so they are state reliant.

    • chris c says:

      04:46pm | 25/03/11

      Considering every media outlet refuses to believe it, WELL GET OVER YOURSELVES.  Id say there all red faced. The gig is up. Tim flannery admited, LIVE on radio 1377mtr at 8.10 am today that if the whole world shut down right this min it would still be 1000 years, yes thats right, 1000 years before we would see a drop in temperature.  The lie, the jig, the carbon hoax is now dead.

    • Troy says:

      02:50pm | 11/04/11

      @Surely says, Mate come on you cant believe that crap! Do you really believe companys just emit carbon because they can? Companys emit Carbon so you can use the PC you are typing on, heat your house so you are not cold, turn your lights on, make the vehicle you drive, ETC. The only reason any company exists is to provide something to a consumer, and so all costs will get passed on to the consumer.
      Did you really believe that the companys emitting CO2 would be paying for Gillards Lie Tax out of there own profits? You poor delusional Green voter.

    • james milton says:

      05:13am | 24/03/11

      From the article:
      “Eventually the scientists will be proved right”

      That sentence there pretty much says it all. That man made global warming has *not* been proven, and that all the left can do is hope that one day, maybe, some genius scientists somewhere will actually come up with some tangible proof.

      So why are we being taxed before anything has been proven?

    • Faz says:

      06:07am | 24/03/11

      @ James

      The future CAN’T be proven.

      Similarly, science COULD’NT prove that if you stand in the middle of a busy street at night you’ll be run over. It can provide compelling evidence though.

      Still, it may not happen. Go ahead, give it a go ... evidence, schmevidence!

    • Jade says:

      06:33am | 24/03/11

      I thought they had found that the world was cooling, not warming up anyways?

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:11am | 24/03/11

      Isn’t this the same mob of flat earth evangelists who said it will never rain again and various state Labor Govts believed them and built multi, multi billion dollar desalination plants that will now sit idle for decades? 
       
      Now they want to tax us but they can’t tell us how much and exactly how many degrees it will retard the effect of this alleged global warming. Just that a Big New Tax is on its way and that ALP voters will be cushioned from the effects by tax cuts.

    • Ryan says:

      08:59am | 24/03/11

      @Faz: “Similarly, science COULD’NT prove that if you stand in the middle of a busy street at night you’ll be run over. It can provide compelling evidence though. ” wanna bet, I can prove it both with physics and with video evidence. Please try again to draw some other strange parallel to your fictional “science”. The only parallel you can draw is to religion, you think its there but cannot prove it yet you have many many suckers who believe you.

    • PTom says:

      10:33am | 24/03/11

      @Ryan,
      Can science predict that you will be run over? Yes
      They can tell you that there will be a 99% chance you will be.
      Video and Physic can then be used to show that prediction was correct. Proven that science was correct.

      Predict v Proven.

      Evidence that GW has occurred in the past is available and scientist have used this evidence to predict that AGW is occurring now and in a few years they will have proven that AGW has occurred.

    • Faz says:

      10:54am | 24/03/11

      @ Ryan

      “wanna bet, I can prove it both with physics and with video evidence.”

      You’ve got video evidence that can prove a future event? No way I’m betting on that bro.

      “Please try again to draw some other strange parallel to your fictional “science”. The only parallel you can draw is to religion, you think its there but cannot prove it yet you have many many suckers who believe you.”

      Not quite the same. I can provide copious video evidence that religion is there.

      Beyond all that palava, you are a perfect illustration of the Mad Monk’s dilemma. Is his ‘people’s revolt’ about denying GW or is it about attacking the policies of the government?

      The more guys like you speak up the more problematic the ‘people’s revolt’ becomes for TA.

      And the more he associates himself with some of the mob we saw yesterday, the more he has to fend off the accusation that he’s encouraging nutcases.

      Bottom line Ryan? Keep up the good work!

    • Ryan says:

      11:21am | 24/03/11

      @Faz: whatever you say Faz, from what I can tell you were unable to make a coherent and logical argument but nice try, you have shown yourself and your opinion to be as irrelevant as your supposed argument.

    • Phil says:

      11:23am | 24/03/11

      FAZ if you and PTOM are so much for a carbon tax I wonder if you would still sing from the same song sheet if it was to cost the estimated $ 2000 per household and no compensation was given? After all you are arguing for the merits of a carbon dioxide tax not about compensation. I also wonder just how much of your own coin you have spent on reducing your impact on the planet from that nasty CO2.

    • Ryan says:

      11:33am | 24/03/11

      @Faz: oh and Faz, the people were there yesterday to show that what they want is a referendum or an election on the issue. Since Gillard saw fit to tell us “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead” then having changed her position anyone who truly believes in democracy will go ahead and get a mandate from the people.
      What is she afraid of Faz I mean since as you so offensively and hypocritically claimed we are the “Mad Monks minority of nutcases” then we should easily be silenced through gaining a mandate.
      If not then its also clear that this is more about forcing a minority view on the majority “at all costs”.
      Hey look at it this way Faz, I am just supporting Penny Wongs position on a carbon tax when she was minister for climate change. And I quote - “Unfortunately a carbon tax is not the silver bullet some people might think” so I guess I am more of a Penny Wong supporter than a Tony Abbott (or for the infantile Mad Monk).

    • Duff says:

      12:11pm | 24/03/11

      Ryan and James - only in mathematics can we actually “prove” something.  The rest is really just a case of providing enough evidence to convince an observer that something is true.  In law, for example, there are 2 seperate standards of proof (criminal and civil), one being “beyond reasonable doubt” and the other being “on the balance of probabilities”.  Proof is in the eye of the beholder, and context is everything.

      In the case of AGW, I challenge skeptics and deniers to ask yourself this: what is my personal standard of proof on this?  What do I really need to learn/hear before I consider it “proof enough”?  I suspect some of you have set the bar so high it will never, ever be surmountable, no matter what happens or what you are told by scientists.

    • Ryan says:

      01:35pm | 24/03/11

      @Duff: ok Duff, how about this then. What will the reduction in global temperature in degrees per year as a result of this carbon tax. Its intention is to stop global warming, so what is the benchmark.

    • Faz says:

      01:56pm | 24/03/11

      @ Ryan

      ” ... the people were there yesterday to show that what they want is a referendum or an election on the issue.”

      They were? I saw something about Polar Bears on one of the placards but nothing about refrendums.

      “Since Gillard saw fit to tell us “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead” then having changed her position anyone who truly believes in democracy will go ahead and get a mandate from the people.”

      OK. Everytime a few hundred loonies hold placards up in front of Parliament House and make a lot of noise, we should have an election? Sounds like a plan.

      “What is she afraid of Faz I mean since as you so offensively and hypocritically claimed we are the “Mad Monks minority of nutcases” then we should easily be silenced through gaining a mandate.”

      Hasn’t worked so far. It may be a minority government but that actually constitutes a mandate for as long as she has the confidence of the indies and the Greens.

      “If not then its also clear that this is more about forcing a minority view on the majority “at all costs”.”

      Majority? At about the same time the rabble were outside a petition supporting action on climate change was given to the PM. I believe it had 12000 signatures.

      “Hey look at it this way Faz, I am just supporting Penny Wongs position on a carbon tax when she was minister for climate change. And I quote - “Unfortunately a carbon tax is not the silver bullet some people might think” so I guess I am more of a Penny Wong supporter than a Tony Abbott (or for the infantile Mad Monk).”

      That’s why a fixed price on carbon is the first step to what PW DID support:: an ETS. So, yeah, keep supporting Penny, bro.

    • STOP WHINGING says:

      02:06pm | 24/03/11

      DUH!!! “if proved”, a wrong term as you cannot prove anything in science, either accept or reject the null hypothesis, but, If wait to “prove” the science is correct, then we to late to do anything but kiss our arses goodbye…  As we shall not be able to evolve in under few million years to survive atmospheric conditions more suited to life 30 million years ago. And the acidification of oceans, The buffer is almost full and potential positive feedback overcomes the inertia of our ecology. And you wine about paying some money to help ourselves start the process. I an almost embarrassed to be a high level responsible human that has the power to sustain or devastate our planets ecology.

    • Eric Ireland says:

      04:49pm | 24/03/11

      With things like AGW, it’s pretty much impossible to prove beyond any doubt. You could say the same for continental drift and evolution too. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

      I think we should apply the precautionary principle.

    • Joan says:

      05:32pm | 24/03/11

      News .... you will all be dead and buried,  gone pffft before this old earth comes to an end. - unless a gigantic meteor or a comet strikes earth in your lifetime or your childrens lifetime. You can’t save the world to infinity of time and a Juliar big Carbon Tax on everything in Australia will make not one scrao of difference.  For those people on a mission to save the world Juliar Carbon Tax way-  they should through Tax systen give an annual $300 voluntary contribution. ..... I will implement my own Direct Action Plan to live my life in the best interest of planet as I already do.

    • Ryan says:

      06:59pm | 24/03/11

      @Faz: “OK. Everytime a few hundred loonies hold placards up in front of Parliament House and make a lot of noise, we should have an election? Sounds like a plan.” yeah nice attempt at a side step, so you prove my point then. Since Gillard was afraid to admit it pre-election and afraid to take it to an election or a referendum, it is blatantly obvious she knows via her actions that this is a minority forcing their ineffective tax (so Penny Wong stated) on the majority.

    • ZSRenn says:

      05:19am | 24/03/11

      “There will be no carbon tax while I am leader”

      “It’s not a carbon tax it’s a carbon price”

      $12.5 Billion cost to the Australian taxpayer

      Saving 0.0073% of global emissions

      Climate Change Committee made up in Orwellian fashion straight out of 1984 complete with a 16 year experienced spin doctor in Climate Change and led by a man who once wanted to pump sulfur into the air to stop Global warming.

      Garnaut report using inflated figures for Carbon emissions of 28.1 tons /capita 10 metric tonnes over the CSIRO’s own figures of 17.5 tons / capita and only found in treehugger.com

      Garnaut report estimating a 7c rise in fuel costs and dismissing this by saying “Fuel rises everyday anyway so what is another 7c?”

      Garnaut report estimating electricity costs will rise by $625 / household and dismissing this by saying “An interest rise would cost you $525 so what’s the difference?”

      I think I know a con job when I see one!

    • Jedi_T says:

      06:23am | 24/03/11

      Spot on!
      Only problem is, goldfish have a hardtime remember from one parargraph to the next, or beyond any one minute of a speech and miss all these important tidbits.
      But back to the article. Alternatives. Options. Atleast they are putting them out there. NOT JUST WACKING TAXES ON PEOPLE!

    • Jade says:

      06:36am | 24/03/11

      Lol what’s the difference? The difference is people being able to afford to live in their house or in their car…

      How stupid do they honestly think we are!!

    • persephone says:

      06:43am | 24/03/11

      ZSRenn

      you’re correct; it is a carbon price, not a tax. However, as the PM says, it will have much the same effect as a tax and she’s happy to let people call it one.

      Like most sensible people, she’s a pragmatist. Like most of those who want action on climate change, she recognises that it’s worth taking some political pain to get the action we need.

      ‘$12.5 billion cost to the taxpayer to save 0.0073% of global emissions’

      Well, firstly it’s cheaper than the Coalition’s policy which - as it comes out of general revenue - is a direct cost to the taxpayer.

      And it achieves some emission reductions whereas the Coalition’s policy would see them increase.

      The aim is reduction of emissions.

      If every country in the world - or even just the majority of the polluting countries - makes a small saving, then carbon emissions can be stablilised.

      If no one does anything, then they can’t.

      Garnaut’s an economist. He has based his figures on his own calculations. They are ‘inflated’ because - as economists have continually told us - the longer you delay action, the more expensive it becomes. Thus, if we delay action even longer, you can expect the carbon price to become higher.

      Garnaut has not dismissed cost of living concerns. He has recommended generous compensation to go with carbon pricing. In the case of fuel, he has recommended the reduction of the existing exise to neutralise any increase due to carbon pricing.

      You don’t know a con job when you see one, because you obviously just accept whatever ‘facts’ Bolt or whoever it is feeds you without doing your own basic research.

    • L. says:

      07:30am | 24/03/11

      “Saving 0.0073% of global emissions”

      Maybe is will save that… and it’s a big maybe.

    • TimB says:

      07:49am | 24/03/11

      “Well, firstly it’s cheaper than the Coalition’s policy which - as it comes out of general revenue - is a direct cost to the taxpayer. “

      Yes but Perse we’ve already paid for that.

      That money will be out of our pockets and in general revenue *anyway*.

      Gillard’s plan is hitting taxpayers FURTHER. So hers is the plan that actually costs us more. Not the Coalition’s.

    • SD says:

      07:53am | 24/03/11

      I love Lefties like Persephone. The come up with sentence starters like ” Like most sensible” which tells you from the start that the following dribble has at best the loosest grounds in fact but is more likely BS Labor spin at best. Have you ever contemplate Persephone how much your (Labor’s) born to rule attitude and the belief that you espouse total knowledge make you sound like carbon copies of Bush. No wonder you hate him, most scum don’t like to see their relfection.

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:21am | 24/03/11

      @ Perse It has been quiet around here without your lies and spin the last couple of days.

      You say that Julia spending $2550 /household /year or $12.5 billion is cheaper than the direct action. Did you read the story the author said and I quote

      In short Direct Action will cost a fortune, up to $30 billion

      In what world do you call 0.0073% reduction of emissions a reduction. Most mathematicians would call this 0. As for your claim that Direct action would see a rise in emissions I have in the past supported my figure with the links and math’s to prove it and I wonder if you would be so kind to do the same.

      I am all for making some savings but I think 0.0073% for a cost of $2550 /household /year is too big a price to pay and would rather the $ $600 / household/ year of Direct Action in this attempt any day.

      The Garnaut report has already been adopted by the Department of Climate change as his figures are posted on their web page and how long will it take us to increase our usage by 40%. We are getting this tax in July next year.

      http://www.climatechange.gov.au/minister/greg-combet/2011/media-releases/February/mr20110209.aspx

      The CSIRO to whom we pay a fortune put the figure at 17.5 metric tons / capita why has the government ignored it’s own research facility and gone with figures off treehugger.com.

      Just like you perse the Government is full of lies and spin!

    • persephone says:

      08:21am | 24/03/11

      It’s not a ‘maybe’ at all, L.

      This is because a carbon price is reviewed on a regular basis. If it’s not achieving what it’s meant to, then it will be raised.

      Raising it provides more incentive for everyone to cut their use of carbon emitting products, from the generator to the consumer.

      If it doesn’t do this, then there’s more money in the kitty for real ‘direct action’ - encouraging alternative energy sources, planting trees, whatever.

      If a target is set - and we know what it is for Australia, a reduction of 5% -and not being met, it’s relatively easy to adjust the settings to get back on track.

    • L. says:

      08:42am | 24/03/11

      “If every country in the world - or even just the majority of the polluting countries - makes a small saving, then carbon emissions can be stablilised”

      No… That would only happen if the savings in carbon output were the same as the current yearly increase in carbon output. That is to say, it would only stabilise only if the economy AND the population didn’t grow. The stagnate economic growth is not good, and population stgnation is unlikely.

    • TimB says:

      09:03am | 24/03/11

      Goddammit. Broker the italics again Sorry everyone. WTF is with the tags, they’re not picking up properly.

      Hope that fixes it.

    • Knemon says:

      09:17am | 24/03/11

      Jade @ 06:36am “How stupid do they honestly think we are” - honestly equals very - think equals extremely - we are equals denialists.

    • L. says:

      09:35am | 24/03/11

      “This is because a carbon price is reviewed on a regular basis. If it’s not achieving what it’s meant to, then it will be raised.”

      Rubbish..

      Quantify the Australia’s CO2 reduction based on Aud$26/ tonne for carbon… then tell us how much of a % differnce in global temps that would make, and over what time frame.

      If you can…(but we know you can’t).

    • TimB says:

      09:46am | 24/03/11

      Ok wtf is going on?

      Grr. Stupid HTML.

    • persephone says:

      10:02am | 24/03/11

      TimB

      no, you haven’t ‘already paid for that’ because we’re talking about future government revenue.

      Raising the costs of government doing business - which the Coalition’s plan will do - means that either we pay more tax to cover these increased costs or that other government services are cut.

      Treasury says that the Coalition plan means an EXTRA cost of over $700 per year per family.

      SD

      so on that impeccable logic, most posters here really in their heart of hearts support Julia.

      Fine by me.

      ZSRenn

      so your argument is that a reduction isn’t a reduction? Weird.

      As I said, the carbon price will achieve whatever those controlling the settings wants it to achieve.

      I’d like to see where you get your costings. Treasury - and Garnaut - have made it very clear that the government scheme costs less for households than the Opposition’s.

      Under the CPRS, for example, low income householders were going to end up with $200 a year MORE in their pockets.

      Under the Coalition’s, they’ll end up with over $700 less.

      I don’t think even the Coalition is questioning either of those figures.

      L

      as I said, if the savings aren’t being made, you adjust the targets.

      So if population pressures are leading to an increase in emissions, then the price of carbon emitting products will rise.

      The agreed global aim is to stabilise temperatures at + 2 degrees. There is a recognition there that it’s impossible to reverse global warming in the short term, and thus the aim is not temperature reduction but stabilisation.

    • Syl says:

      10:22am | 24/03/11

      Perse

      “This is because a carbon price is reviewed on a regular basis. If it’s not achieving what it’s meant to, then it will be raised.”

      So if the tax doesn’t work, if it doesn’t lower emissions (which seems likely considering all the compensation being thrown around), rather than scrapping it as useless, the answer is just to tax us more?  Seriously?  Wow…

      I guess taxing the shit out of people does fix all problems…

    • L. says:

      10:23am | 24/03/11

      “as I said, if the savings aren’t being made, you adjust the targets.”

      Over what timeframe..?

      How many millions tonnes of carbon effect what rate of change..?

      Again.. we have nothing to “faith” to go on… Not “science”.

    • persephone says:

      11:28am | 24/03/11

      L

      depends on the final design.

      The first review is set (from memory) at the time it transitions from a set carbon price to a market based one (so three years time).

      Under the CPRS, I believe there were a series of set review periods (every two years or so) but there would be nothing stopping earlier intervention if it was necessary.

      It wouldn’t be too hard to work out the tonnage - we can estimate fairly accurately how various measures will impact on this, and you frequently read statements such as “doing X will reduce carbon emissions by Y tonnes per year”.

      The only problem in doing that at this point in time is that the target hasn’t been determined yet.

      If we go for the 5% of the emissions in 2000 by 2020, then we’re looking at a measurable figure - we know what emissions were in 2000 so we can work out what 5% of them are.

      This means that emissions would need to be no more than 523 million tonnes by 2020.

      In 2010, it appears we emitted about 547 million tonnes.

      So we need to cut our emissions by 24 million tonnes in today’s terms.

      (Admit to very shaky figures and happy for these to be corrected).

    • Richard says:

      11:37am | 24/03/11

      Persephone says: “Garnaut’s an economist. He has based his figures on his own calculations. They are ‘inflated’ because - as economists have continually told us - the longer you delay action, the more expensive it becomes. Thus, if we delay action even longer, you can expect the carbon price to become higher.”

      She couldn’t be more wrong about this. The longer we delay action, the CHEAPER it becomes, because carbon emission reduction technologies and renewable energies technologies become more mature and affordable the as time moves forward.

      The general rule regarding technology I believe is something like, “every 18 months it gets twice as good and cost half as much.” It doesn’t take an Einstein to realise that if we blow our load too early and commit to immature technologies, its a waste of money that could be better invested in superior technologies when the time arrives.

      I can’t believe you can continue to shamelessly post here on the Punch Persephone, when you have been exposed so many times being so completely, fundamentally incorrect.

    • persephone says:

      11:55am | 24/03/11

      Richard

      and the best way to encourage the development of superior technologies is to provide a market for them.

      Televisions improve constantly not because the manufacturers sat back and waited for the ‘perfect’ model to come along before they put it on the market, but because ‘less perfect’ televisions were being sold, generating the income which could be used to develop more perfect ones.

      Similarly, products don’t become cheaper because they’ve been stashed in the back of a warehouse for 12 months. They become cheaper because there is a market demand for them, and two elements come into play - firstly, higher turnover means that the producer can afford to make a lesser profit on each item sold, and secondly, competition between producers drives lower prices.

      I doubt that any product or service would become either better or cheaper without those market drivers.

      To put this in terms of dealing with climate change, using solar cells (not ideal, but they’ll do) as an example:

      * a price is put on carbon.

      * to avoid paying higher prices, people invest more in solar cells.

      * the price of solar cells goes down because i. the sales volume means that the manufacturer does not have to make as much profit on each individual sale; ii. manufacturers look for ways to produce solar cells more cheaply in order to compete with each other.

      * at the same time, quality improves because i. manufacturers are better able to identify problems and rectify them when there is widescale use of a product; ii. manufacturers have the cash flow and incentive (through competition) to invest in research and development.

      Thus, by creating a market where there previously wasn’t one, solar cells should become cheaper and better over time.

      Without the market being created, however, there is no incentive for the manufacturer to lower prices (lower turnover means that each individual item has to return more profit) and an insufficient income stream for the manufacturer to be able to invest in further improvements.

    • Richard says:

      12:43pm | 24/03/11

      Good points Persephone, but Australia is insignificant as a market in terms of the global economy, so there is no point crippling our economy to create a market which would be too small to drive technological growth anyway.

      Fact is there is enough price signalling going on in world energy markets to spur technology investment in renewables by major multi-national R&D outfits at the moment anyway, WITHOUT the need for a carbon price.

      As peak oil impacts, wars break out in the middle east, coal rises in price, gas rises in price etc. etc., there is more than enough incentive already to switch over to sustainables. To impose a carbon price unilaterally in Australia on top of everything else would be the straw that broke the camel’s back, and for no tangible purpose at that!

    • Phil says:

      12:46pm | 24/03/11

      Perse. Which question, if you pay someone more in compensation than they need for any CO2 tax, how will they ever change their ways?
      Further would you be for this tax if no compensation was payable by the government. In lieu of this carbon price per ton could be say $ 5 paid by the end user of the product.
      Based on 17.5 tons per person that would raise roughly 2 Billion a year for renewable energy. Increase this by $ 1 per ton per year and after 10 years we are raising 12 Billion a year for renewable energy.

    • persephone says:

      01:32pm | 24/03/11

      Richard

      and many of those acting in these ways will tell you it’s in anticipation of a global price.

      Yes, global action will drive the changes we’re talking about, including improvements in technology. Thus being involved globally is important - ideally we should be part of the development of these products, rather than letting the rest of the world do so and then buying them from them at a premium price.

      Phil

      If the compensation came directly off the item purchased (so you went to the counter, the checkout chick said “Oh, I have to knock $1 off your bill because of the carbon price”) then no, there’s no incentive.

      What happens though, is that the compensation comes separately - you have more money, but at the same time you’re getting price signals on some items.

      People like to save money if they can, so they will look around for ‘bargains’ - which will generally be products which are more price competitive because they are less carbon emitting.

      Most people, confronted by a petrol price rise, look around for cheaper petrol (or change their fuel altogether).

      This is all basic economic theory - raise prices and people change their behaviour, regardless of whether or not their income stays the same.

      There are countless examples of price rises resulting in changed consumer behaviour.

      Being a supporter of action for climate change, I’d be for this action if the compensation didn’t exist, although it would cause real financial hardship for me.

      I recognise that the cost of inaction would mean more pressure on my purse in the long run.

      However, having a compensation package means that families will have extra resources available to them, which will hopefully enable them (even if it’s only a very small percentage) to pay for changes which will lessen their emissions and save them money in the long run.

    • TimB says:

      05:24am | 24/03/11

      “... distortions will be created as a Labor-Green Government hands some people massive financial assistance, thus creating both winners who get assistance and losers who don’t get assistance.

      There, fixed that for you Nick.

    • Knemon says:

      09:23am | 24/03/11

      @ TimB - Direct action is akin to giving problem gamblers a few billion dollars and asking them to fix the problems that they themselves are addicted to. It just wouldn’t work.  It’s no wonder Andrew Wilkie and Nick Xenophon support the Gillard government.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:57am | 24/03/11

      @Knemon Proof would be nice.

      I spend a lot of time proving what I say.

      Is there any chance you could condescend to do the same?

    • Knemon says:

      10:48am | 24/03/11

      Unlike you ZSRenn - I don’t condescend to just anyone.

    • Stop being Canute says:

      02:27pm | 24/03/11

      So long as you buy low carbon energy devices or set yourself for solar and reduce completely your reliance on majority of what will be taxed if using fossil fuel energy, YOU WILL PAY LESS AND LESS CO2 taxes. Pretty simple. Therefore the industries that use high carbon energy WILL move to lowering their exposure and reduce the costs and voila! again use get better prices for less carbon use and again, YOU WIN. NOT PAYING towards ETS. Sooner started sooner paid for. THE TAX IS ONLY INTERIM solution to pushing us towards low carbon economy.  Does anybody listen? To busy being self absorbent and stingy about our children’s futures.

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:29pm | 24/03/11

      @ Stop being Canute With an increase in fuel cost to households of $1300 / household /year and electricity costs of $625 /householod /year.

      How do we afford to by low emiision devices?

      How is electricity generation going to reduce it’s carbon use as to date their is no alternative.

      The Garnaut report says that they expect people to use any refund they may get to buy low emission alliances

      I think I will using mine to pay the extra costs this tax will cause me and so will most Australians.

      Not so simple really!

    • persephone says:

      07:49am | 25/03/11

      ZSRenn

      Garnaut is referring to the fact that (under his proposal) the compensation is more than the price rises caused by carbon pricing.

      Thus, after paying your bills, you will have money left over which (some) families will use to invest in lowering their emissions.

    • Luke says:

      05:29am | 24/03/11

      “Abbott’s Direct Action plan a direct con job”
      The only con job was the one Gillard did in her election campaign in order to win office, “there will be no carbon tax under a Government I lead” Now that’s a real con job,
      Nice try.

    • Dave Sag says:

      08:29am | 24/03/11

      In her defence however I clearly recall Ms Gillard say she would make “prosecuting a price on carbon” one of her main priorities the day Mr Rudd got the knife.  The Government that said it would not impose a Carbon Tax is not the Government we have today, which is, like it or not, reliant on the Greens and the Independents to enact policy. 

      Screech on about how Gillard lied all you like, but the fact is we need a mechanism to price carbon, irrespective of the volume of emissions Australia generates, simply to keep pace with the rest of the world.  Without a carbon price our exports will tarnish and be regarded as dirty. And then people will stop buying them, and then our economy is screwed. 

      Without a carbon price we won’t have the incentives we need to drive investment into renewable energy, and we’ll end by buying our power as shiploads of batteries from clean-powered Asia, Europe and the USA become cheaper and more convenient than burning coal.  Don’t think that could happen? Check out the history of bottled water.

      Australia needs a carbon price for its economic survival.

    • James of Adelaide says:

      08:39am | 24/03/11

      Funny isnt it Luke that Liberal PM John Howard also promised there would NEVER be any GST if he was PM… ooops.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      09:01am | 24/03/11

      James

      Howard took the GST to an election and won a mandate. How about your hero does the same, hey? 
       
      Oh, and btw, we’ve had two PMs since Howard. You may as well look back at Holt or Whitlam.

    • LAD says:

      09:35am | 24/03/11

      Dave Sag - your in denial mate. If Gillard said prosecuting a price on carbon was one of her main priorities the day Rudd got the knife, then please explain why she said during her election campaign “there will be no carbon tax under a Government I lead.”? I think most Australians know why she said it, but there are some who just don’t want to admit why she said it.
      Either her first statement when Rudd was knifed was rubbish or the second statement is a lie. to help her win votes. It all sounds a little conniving, cunning, tricky and misleading to say the least., and treated by Gillard with arrogance.
      And to say the Government that would not impose a carbon tax is not the Government we have today is more tricky rubbish. She said a “Government I lead” she still leads this other Government she has though doesn’t she?

    • persephone says:

      10:06am | 24/03/11

      LAD

      because there is a difference between a price on carbon and a carbon tax.

      A price on carbon can be applied in a number of ways. The carbon tax Gillard was referring to was a mechanism to put a price on carbon.

      What we have now is a compromise - a short term price on carbon while we transit to a carbon trading scheme (which Gillard has always, and still, makes clear is her preferred option).

      In the interview with ‘The Australian’ where Gillard ruled out a tax on carbon, she expressed her support for a carbon price.

    • Syl says:

      10:33am | 24/03/11

      I thought we were over the Carbon Price vs Carbon Tax thing….  In essence it’s the same thing, the Government is creating an artificial cost on goods and services that we must all pay for, it’s a tax. 

      Argue the merits or pitfalls of the plan, not semantics of what it is called.

      Whether you believe that the tax (oops price, sigh…) is required is irrelevant.  Julia’s job is to represent the people, she was “elected” with a strong stance on this issue and then backflipped after the election, undoubtedly with Bob Brown elbowing her in the ribs the whole way.  That is wrong.  And the public backlash shows that a lot of people aren’t happy about that.

      If she believes so strongly about this issue (which I highly doubt, it stinks of keep the greens happy to me) she should have the confidence to take it to the people and get a true mandate.  If the people are in favour, then great, I won’t like it, but it was done properly and Im content to suck it up, but the way it’s being done is underhanded and a slap in the face to the Australian people.

    • persephone says:

      10:35am | 24/03/11

      Tony

      well, he didn’t.

      He didn’t win a mandate - less than 50% of voters voted for him.

      And he didn’t deliver the same GST that he took to the election - he changed it, because of the situation in parliament.

      Putting a price on carbon does have a mandate (more of a mandate than the GST got)  - MPs who supported carbon pricing got over 50% of the vote.

      The particular mechanism to put a price on carbon did not have a mandate, however, and Gillard has had to alter this in the same way that Howard had to alter the GST, and for much the same reasons.

    • LAD says:

      10:42am | 24/03/11

      persephone - do you or Gillard seriously believe that the average voter in the street underderstood the difference between carbon tax and price on carbon?
      I’m sure she knew exactly what she was doing and knew she had a get out of jail free card.(that’s the one you have just explained)
      That’s the sort of stuff lawyers do.
      Not nice doing it to the Nation though.

    • PTom says:

      11:08am | 24/03/11

      @LAD. The reason you don’t see a difference is because of the Liberal spin on it.  What is the difference between Abbott’s Paid Partental Leave Levy and the so-call Great Big New Flood Tax(Levy)?

    • LAD says:

      12:28pm | 24/03/11

      PTom - the difference between Abbott’s Paid Partental Leave Levy and the so-call Great Big New Flood Tax(Levy)
      is Abbotts Paid Parental Leave Levy is a Levy on big business not you and me and working families.
      The so-call Great Big New Flood Tax(Levy) is a Levy/tax on me and you and working families. That’s if your working that is.

    • persephone says:

      12:35pm | 24/03/11

      LAD

      so, by that logic, Gillard’s carbon tax is also on big business not you and me and working families.
      Which is fine, but in both cases we recognise that big business will pass their additional costs on to consumers.

      So if the carbon price is a Big New Tax on Everything then so is Abbott’s PPL.

    • Dingo says:

      12:43pm | 24/03/11

      Honestly James, that line is getting tedious….
      then Howard went to an election saying he would introduce a GST. So that’s all Gillard has to do. Having changed her mind, call an election.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      12:45pm | 24/03/11

      Persephone

      Howard went to an election with GST as a major election platform. He won the election. He had his mandate for the GST.

      The lying bitch went to the election saying no carbon tax. She didn’t win the election, but subsequently bribed a few independents and formed Government. She has no mandate for her Carbon Tax.

    • Syl says:

      12:45pm | 24/03/11

      At least Abbot (god i cant stand him) took his PPL levy to an election…

    • LAD says:

      12:52pm | 24/03/11

      Persephone - Abbotts levy on big business would be temporary.

    • persephone says:

      02:10pm | 24/03/11

      Tony

      the Prime Minister of Australia, Julia Gillard, went to the last election promising action on climate change.

      Similarly, John Howard went to an election promising a GST on everything.

      Julia Gillard is acting on climate change. She has had to change the way she acts, partly due to the make up of Parliament.

      John Howard introduced a GST. It was not, however, the GST he promised he would deliver. He had to change the GST he delivered because ot the make up of Parliament.

      This will play out very similarly to the GST. Most people, even if they didn’t like the idea, thought a GST was inevitable. When it was introduced, it didn’t make as much difference to their lives as they thought, and they learnt to live with it.

      Most people recognise that there will be some kind of action on climate change and that this action will cost them money. Therefore they will accept any action as inevitable. They will also find that it doesn’t make as much of an impact as they thought it was going to.

      By next election, this will be a dead issue.

    • Greg says:

      06:17am | 24/03/11

      “Eventually the scientists will be proved right”

      So in other words Im right your wrong. You must do it my way.

      I don’t think the synonym for analysis is denial. I also think analysis and debate is a feature of democracy in action.

      I accept that this maybe an issue that may never be overwhelmingly proved and accepted. If that is the case, based on the evidence in this article, the pro global warming side need to improve their debate communication skills.

      Just assuming superiority in judgement hasn’t been, and in the future, is not going to work.

    • Roger Crook says:

      06:30am | 24/03/11

      Nick was elected to the federal seat of Wakefield in 2007. He is a former president of the ALP (SA) and holds a BA and GradDip in Communications. Before entering Parliament he was an occupational health and safety officer, training officer and organiser for the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees’ Association. He also worked as a sport and recreation policy advisor to State Labor Minister Michael Wright.
      Says it all really. Another spin doctor. ‘Our Nick’ is not a scientist.
      Nobody, nobody has yet been able to answer the question that if we all agree with the government, what difference will a carbon TAX make to the climate of the world? We know it won’t make any difference in Australia.

    • PTom says:

      11:31am | 24/03/11

      Who is Christopher Whyne, Sofia MmGaddifi or Tony Abbott? all just elected ‘spin doctors’ and nobodies.

    • Jade says:

      06:40am | 24/03/11

      Abbott… a con job? I think not.

      He has not deceived a nation now has he.

      The reason Australian’s don’t want a carbon TAX is because the only people that believe in climate change are the fresh out of school Gen Y’ers that have been brainwashed and the gullible sheeples who would believe the world was flat because you told them too.

      Everyone else can see it for what it is, a massive wealth distribution system, something that will financially cripple a nation and a way for a broke government to fill its pockets back up after mass amounts of wastage.

    • Julie says:

      07:56am | 24/03/11

      I believe in climate change but I don’t agree with Gillards carbon tax and I’m 48.
      Sounds like Gillards rhetoric is working for you.

    • PeterL says:

      08:41am | 24/03/11

      Jade - It’s not correct to assume that Australians don’t want a carbon tax because they don’t believe in climate change and that they are gen Y’ers.
      Many people are climate change believers but simply don’t want a carbon tax and don’t believe a carbon tax in Australia will do anything to slow or stop climate change.
      Gillard is doing her best to get out there and tell everyone that if they don’t want a carbon tax then they’re deniers.
      This seems to be the only defence she has and it’s another lie and she is deliberately misrepresenting Australians.

    • Knemon says:

      09:06am | 24/03/11

      Jade - Why don’t you elaborate more on “something that will financially cripple a nation” Give us a few examples please, I’m keen to learn more on this issue so that I can make a choice between Abbott and Gillard.

      With all due respect Jade, I believe you may have the ‘flat earthers’ cliché back to front, It was the ignorant that thought the earth was flat, not the informed.

    • LC says:

      09:24am | 24/03/11

      Jade, I was born in the mid 80’s. That puts me squarely in with Gen Y.

      I’m also a climate skeptic.

      Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    • persephone says:

      10:16am | 24/03/11

      ‘....because the only people that believe in climate change are the fresh out of school Gen Y’ers that have been brainwashed and the gullible sheeples who would believe the world was flat because you told them too.’

      So which category does Abbott fall into?

      Or do you just assume he’s lying about the need for action on climate change….but that’s OK, because he’s Tony Abbott?

      (And it’s hard to see how a carbon price does anything to fill up the government’s pockets, given that all the money raised will be spent…)

    • Nonmus says:

      10:46am | 24/03/11

      Hate to be the one to break the news to you Knemon, but it was conventional wisdom (read ‘scientific consensus’) that once held the view that the earth was more-or-less flat. It took sceptical mathematicians (look up Archimeded) and astronomer (look up Eratosthenes) to prove them wrong. You should try to avoid parroting Green activist slogans mate, it makes you look silly.

    • Knemon says:

      10:54am | 24/03/11

      Nonmus @ 10:46am…and it was fed to the gullible. You can call me ‘silly’ but never call me ‘mate’.

    • Jade says:

      11:25am | 24/03/11

      @ LC, I was born in 1987, also a Gen Y and a climate change skeptic… sorry I don’t smoke smile

      @ PeterL.. I actually agree with you there…. 

      @ Knemon, taxing big business a carbon tax will raise the price of everything, how could people possible afford any further price rises for basic necessities (eg. Electricity, fuel, food)?

    • persephone says:

      12:40pm | 24/03/11

      Jade

      avoiding the question?

    • Voxpop says:

      01:45pm | 24/03/11

      @Jade “how could people possible afford any further price rises for basic necessities (eg. Electricity, fuel, food)? “

      Well after all the hoo ha over the GST we worked out that yes we can actually afford it - you agree yes?  After all it was Howard who introduced that so to stay on message you’d have to agree.

      Well since the Carbon Tax will only have a 1% effect on GDP I can tell you it will be easier than the GST which had a 4% impact on GDP.

    • Dash says:

      02:04pm | 24/03/11

      perse, you always avoid answering my questions!

    • Jade says:

      02:22pm | 24/03/11

      @ Persephone… I didn’t even stop to read your comment.  I don’t think that the carbon tax and GST are really comparable.  The GST really just simplified the tax system didn’t it (correct me if I am wrong… I was like 13 when it was brought in, all I remember is angry women throwing tampons haha)? Two totally different system for two totally different things.

      @ Voxpop… “Well since the Carbon Tax will only have a 1% effect on GDP I can tell you it will be easier than the GST which had a 4% impact on GDP.” how do you know that this is the only effect that it will have? No details have really been released yet have they.

    • persephone says:

      02:32pm | 24/03/11

      Jade

      wow, the efforts you go to to avoid confronting an inconvenient truth!

      I haven’t mentioned the GST in response to your post.

      I asked you whether you considered Abbott, given his stated belief in climate change, was fresh out of school or a gullible sheeple. According to you, he has to be one or the other.

      I can understand you wanting to avoid answering it.

    • woolycrow says:

      02:39pm | 24/03/11

      Tony has not deceived anyone because he never had any ideas in the first place. He is only into meaningless slogans and just saying “No”.

    • Jade says:

      04:18pm | 24/03/11

      Hasn’t Tony only stated that he believes the climate is changing, however it isn’t a direct result of humans? This is my understanding of where he stands.  No he obviously isn’t a fresh out of school gen y’er and a sheeple? Not one of those either or he would be right up Bob Browns ass with JuLiar Gillard.

      @woolycrow , it is his job to say no, he is the opposition.  If it was labor in the opposition they would be doing the exact same thing.

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:53pm | 24/03/11

      @ Perse I told you that I got my costings of a $1300 / household /year fuel cost increase and the $625 / household /year electricity increase from The Garnaut review as you bought my calculations into question and I got no reply from you about this.

      Then I find you down here asking Jade if she was avoiding the question when you have not replied to my figures.

      Bit hypocritical really when it is obvious you are avoiding my qusetion!

    • persephone says:

      07:56am | 25/03/11

      Jade

      he stated - in Parliament, and at the rally - that climate change is happening and that it is affected by man’s activities.

      So answer the question - which is he?

      ZSRenn

      I asked you where you got your information, you gave me the reference (btw usually that means giving the page number etc when it’s a 70 page plus document)!

      Thank you for that, I haven’t had time to read it.

      You didn’t ask me a question, I asked you one. You answered it - thank you - and I’m still reading through the information provided.

      In the case of Jade, I asked her a direct question. She dealt with a couple of other posts and ignored mine. When I pointed this out to her, she responded to a completely different post of mine.

      So I’m not sure where the hypocrisy is. You answered a question of mine. She didn’t and still hasn’t.

    • Bris Jack says:

      06:46am | 24/03/11

      In your opinion.
      I read yours is a bit of a dudder too.

    • adnavs says:

      06:53am | 24/03/11

      The Carbon Tax is the price we are paying for JULIAR to keep her job as
      Prime Minister.  Power at any cost.  She is on a promise to Bobby Brown.
      If anyone believes that this carbon tax will not cost jobs….they also believe in fairytales.  The craziest thing is that it will not change anything…..will our big sacrifice change anything?....especially the climate…..we all know the answer is a big fat “NO”  Is this logic?
      I agree with the placard “Juliar…Bob Brown’s bitch” and its definitely time to “ditch the witch”

    • jim says:

      08:53am | 24/03/11

      The thought of people losing thier jobs scares me.  People who think they will be compensated are just kidding themself, people will pay out more than they are compensated.  It feels like the average hard working aussie is not being heard. If you are so confident call an election .  People are becoming more and more angry especially when they dare question this governments motives, and get labelled as extremists, deniers , scum.  I am proud of the people that got off there bums to protest.  The government think if they just ignore and label us then we will roll over and cop another financial raping.

    • PTom says:

      11:53am | 24/03/11

      Power at any cost” This could be applied more to Abbott yet you blindness to him has made you angry. Have look at what he has said and done. I will be Mr Nice Guy a few days later we have to crush Labor. I am against Climate Change a day later I am for Climate Change.  Levies are not Taxes (Parental Leave) then Levies are Great Big New Taxes (Flood Levy). Direct Action will not cost the Taxpayer anything it will come out of general revenue (our taxes) so where does the extra $30billion come from otherwise which services does he plan to cut?

      Abbott will say or do anything to get himself elected to pay of his New House because he can’t get a real job.

    • Richard says:

      07:10am | 24/03/11

      Nick, there are many fundamental and fatal problems with this article, so I’m afraid that it needs to be refuted at length.

      Global warming is not an “existential” threat at all, in the sense that it hasn’t caused a great deal of problems yet, so it would more accurately be described as a “potential” threat instead of an existential one. But the latest and most accurate science indicates that global warming won’t even be as severe as first predicted, and would be quite manageable under normal circumstances, so long as our economy stays strong enough to deal with problems as they arise. In light of the most recent science, there is no need to act drastically. Action should be taken in step with the rest of the world, namely Brazil, Russia, India, China, Indonesia, Vietnam and America.

      You are really trying to hammer home a fear campaign when you rave about “climate change, resource depletion, food security and energy security” etc. There have always been these sorts of challenges in the world, and the prudent thing to do is to deal with them as they arise. For instance, all of these problems were a major issue in the 1970’s, at a time incidentally when the entire scientific community was warning of dangerous global cooling (which didn’t eventuate). Yet the world didn’t end, life went on. Don’t perpetuate a cynical fear campaign to advance your own electoral interests Nick Champion, because its costing you credibility in the long run.

      As for the coalition’s direct action policy, you are misrepresenting it so that your side can have a cheap sound bite to play on: “hand out to the polluters, handout to the polluters” over and over like a broken record, its cheap, and its definitively wrong.

      Because carbon is not analogous with pollution at all, that is a tricky bit of semantics. Yes, carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere are increasing, and that has the potential to cause climate problems, However carbon dioxide is also be beneficial to a whole kingdom of living organisms (i.e. plants), and thus cannot be defined as pollution, which is a term used solely to describe contamination that is purely harmful and has no beneficial effects whatsoever. So its nonsense to say that the coalition are paying the “polluters”, as carbon dioxide by the strict definition of the term is not a pollutant.

      Direct action isn’t a direct handout either. Its a market-based system that involves different sectors and industries submitting tenders to implement carbon efficient technologies into there operational practices. The government then offers assistance to those industries to implement the new carbon emission reduction technologies, so the industries do not have to bear the burden themselves and thus necessarily pass on the costs to us consumers.

      Its smart, its common sense, and it will actually work directly. Its a guarantee of carbon emission reduction, which your arbitrary tax cannot match. Your arbitrary tax will just drive up consumer prices, so that everyone suffers, but doesn’t necessarily lead to emission reduction. Lose-lose. Whereas the direct action policy does lead directly to emission reductions, yet doesn’t drive up consumer prices for anyone, win-win!

      Its the most carbon intense industries that are the most vital for our economy. No offence Punch team, but if News Limited disappeared from the fabric of Australian society tomorrow, it would be no big loss. But our manufacturers, they are important. Our miners are important. Our electricity generators are VITAL. These industries are the main source of our societies wealth and high living standards. You cannot reasonably argue that it is in Australia’s best interests to cripple these industries arbitrarily, or that it is a bad idea to offer them assistance in transforming themselves into more carbon efficient operations.

      To finish your argument, you make a whole series of unsupported speculations that are actually patently untrue. For example, you say that ” It is a certainty that Australia will end up with a price on emitting carbon dioxide even under the Liberals.”

      But let me tell you this Nick, we are the boss. We the voters will ultimately decide whether or not there will be a price on carbon; not you, not the Liberals, not even the “corporate titans”. This is a democracy Nick, so the only certainty you can hang your hat on is the fact that, at the end of the day, you can’t ignore the will of the voters forever. The day of reckoning will come when we, and we alone, decide whether will be a carbon tax or not.

    • Dot Dot Dot says:

      09:00am | 24/03/11

      “We the voters will ultimately decide whether or not there will be a price on carbon; not you, not the Liberals, not even the ‘corporate titans’”.

      Of course we will Richard, just like “we the voters” decide if we will go to war, increase immigration or have a nuclear power plant in our back yard.

      The truth of the matter is that governments make these decisions because “we the voters” are too stupid to understand the issues surrounding decisions that must be made as your rant has proven.
      Your points as i see them are:
      But carbon is good – Labor bad
      But carbon hasn’t caused any problems yet –For me personally
      But global warming might not be as severe and might be manageable – MIGHT be more severe and unmanageable. This scenario doesn’t appear to have good ending.
      But it’s all a fear campaign – Reality check needed. I tell you if you keep drinking a bottle of Scotch a night you will die a horrible death ravaged by diabetes, cirrhosis or some other disease. You say, Nah it’s just a fear campaign.
      But the “entire” scientific community said it was cooling – I’m sure the ENTIRE scientific community said no such thing.
      But direct action won’t hand out money to big polluters – If you say so, looks like it will from where I sit.
      But carbon isn’t pollution –Semantics, The excess of carbon dioxide is causing problems you admitted it yourself. What would you prefer we called what amounts to a 30% increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere over the last 150 years directly attributable to human activity?

    • L. says:

      09:19am | 24/03/11

      “But the latest and most accurate science indicates that global warming won’t even be as severe as first predicted, and would be quite manageable under normal circumstances, so long as our economy stays strong enough to deal with problems as they arise.”

      Linky..??

    • Richard says:

      10:00am | 24/03/11

      Dear Dot Dot Dot, your incoherent rambling reply to my well-structured and well-argued comment is so unintelligible that it barely deserves to be dignified with a reply. Yet here I am… You cannot say I am uncharitable.

      Look I know you leftist Labor/Greens apologists hate democracy. You hold the people in such contempt, you think we’re all too dumb to “understand the real issues” in the way that only you and the elitist few are able to, and so therefore you think we should be treated like mushrooms: kept in the dark and fed bullshit.

      But would like to have more faith in my fellow Australians than that. I know that I have the capacity for reasoning and for critical thinking, and I should think that most other Australians do too. Ultimately, we are the ones who have to live in this society, so we should be the ones who get to decide how it is organised.

      L. here are a few links for you:
      http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2011/01/my-favorite-topic-feedback.html

      http://www.drroyspencer.com/

      http://www.freakonomics.com/2009/10/15/a-headline-that-will-make-global-warming-activists-apoplectic/

      Its got to do with feedback loops. All of the earlier alarmist predictions assumed that there would be a positive feedback loop so that, as the the climate change gathered momentum, it would escalate and escalate until it got out of control.

      But what they’re finding now is that, actually, the climate is mostly governed by negative feedback loops, so that the higher the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, the less and less impact it has on climate change.

      http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Bi-Ca/Carbon-Dioxide-in-the-Ocean-and-Atmosphere.html

      The funny thing is, mother nature and the biosphere is far better at balancing out and harmonising all the variable elements together and maintaining planetary homoeostasis than we will ever be.

      We just need to get on with our lives and try to treat the Earth as gently and respectfully as possible, but WITHOUT imposing draconian new taxes on vital industries (especially when we can use the coalition’s direct action scheme to achieve better results anyway).

    • L. says:

      10:06am | 24/03/11

      “What would you prefer we called what amounts to a 30% increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere over the last 150 years directly attributable to human activity? “

      Ummm… We could call it what it is…a tiny fraction of all carbon dioxide in the atmosphere??

    • Richard says:

      10:57am | 24/03/11

      @ Dot Dot Dot, you said “But the “entire” scientific community said it was cooling – I’m sure the ENTIRE scientific community said no such thing.”

      And you’re right, of course there were dissenting voices in the scientific community back then who disagreed with the common consensus, just as there are dissenting voices in the scientific community who disagree with the common consensus right now.

      But the historical fact is that the mainstream media created the very strong impression in the public’s perception that catastrophic global cooling was happening and that urgent action was required to prevent it: http://omniclimate.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/1970s-global-cooling-consensus-not-a-myth-the-unassailable-argument/

      The situation is exactly the same today~ I’m not a climate-change denier, but neither am I an alarmist. The right course of action will unfold in good time, but this idea that we need a unilateral carbon is bad policy. Its unnecessary, its useless, and deep down I suspect its designed purely for the purpose of shutting down the industries that the Greens don’t like (because that’s just about the only thing it can achieve).

      But as an effective response to climate change, its ludicrous. Australia, represents 1.5% of the world’s carbon emissions. It pledged to reduce its emissions by 5%. If climate change is such a big problem, then how could any responsible and well-intentioned person be satisfied with such an ineffective “solution”? Verily, Australia could reduce its emissions by 100% and it wouldn’t make a significant difference.

      As a large and barren landmass, there is one and only one thing Australia could do to have a significantly positive impact on preventing climate change: to undertake a vast reforestation program and plant millions and millions of trees in the outback to act as carbon sinks that can offset carbon emissions from everywhere in the world, including China and India et al where we have no political jurisdiction.

      Only one party in politics proposes to pursue this practical solution as part of its climate change policy: the Liberals.

    • persephone says:

      11:45am | 24/03/11

      Richard

      more trees will be planted under a carbon pricing mechanism than Abbott’s plan to Divert Attention from Climate Change proposes.

      To begin with, Abbott only proposes to plant trees on public land.

      That severely limits the number of trees which can be planted - the areas which grow good trees and which are publically owned are generally already covered with them anyway (most public land consists of National and State parks).

      A carbon price gives big emitting companies an incentive to plant trees at their own expense to offset their emissions.

      Origin Energy, for example, planned to plant six million trees in the first three years following the introduction of a CPRS:

      http://www.originenergy.com.au/news/article/asxmedia-releases/1050

      Abbott’s plan is for 20 million trees in total.

      It’s fairly obvious that (if even two or three more energy companies follow Origin’s lead) tree planting under a carbon pricing scheme will be more extensive than it would be under Abbott’s.

    • Richard says:

      04:49pm | 24/03/11

      Persephone, you said: ” Abbott only proposes to plant trees on public land”, however I doubt so.

      When I was in Green Corps 11 years ago, we planted many trees on farmers properties and private lands despite it being a government program.

      In fact Green Corps was a very successful initiative of none other than Tony Abbott’s himself, so I imagine his “Green Army” proposal will be run along much the same lines, but on a much larger scale.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      10:10pm | 24/03/11

      Richard the Liberals have never shown any interest in doing anything serious about climate change. In Peter Costello’s first budget $473 million in tax breaks for R&D into renewal energy were removed and never put back for the life of the Howard government. This resulted in an exodus overseas of some of our best scientific minds and ideas that originated in Australia were turned into billion dollar industries by people other than Australians. While this was was going the 16 members of Howard’s front bench that had coal shares just sat back and quietly watched their money grow.
      This scheme that they’ve dreamed up this time is more of they same. Cronyism at its worst that hasn’t got the backing of a single economist.

    • persephone says:

      08:09am | 25/03/11

      Richard

      I suggest you read the ‘Direct Action’ plan then:

      http://www.liberal.org.au/~/media/Files/Policies and Media/Environment/The Coalitions Direct Action Plan Policy.ashx

      ‘A Coalition Government will commit to the planting of an additional 20 million trees by 2020.
      These trees will be for re-establishing urban forests and urban green corridors, using suitable public
      spaces in urban and regional corridors to be determined in consultation with local authorities and
      communities, and in accordance with principles of public safety, including fire and road safety
      provisions.’

      That’s it.

      That the policy only applies to public land has been reiterated in a number of interviews by various members of the Opposition.

    • Dash says:

      07:16am | 24/03/11

      WTF!!!

      The LNP made noises before the last election that this tax would happen. The ALP denied it: “There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”

      They also promised a citizens assembly to debate climate change. Then after the election they scrapped the assembly and replaced it with a hand picked committee with every member aligned to the ALP and with Gillard at the head!

      They tell people that China is investing in clean energy, but the ALP wont tell you that China’s coal dependency is increasing and Australia is going to sell them as much “dirty” coal as we can!

      The ALP say they want to tax carbon, yet they have also introduced a tax on the profits of the mining companies selling the stuff!

      The ALP tell you that this policy is designed to “make the polluters pay” yet two families polluting exactly the same will be descriminated against, not on the basis of pollution, but on the basis of income!

      What was thet you were saying about a con job?

    • JasonM says:

      07:45am | 24/03/11

      Like the Prime Minister continually calling anyone who doesn’t agree with her carbon tax a denier. it’s about time the media took her to task on this continued, false assertion she is trying to create. Having the Prime Minister accusing voters of being deniers is wrong and misleading. The continued arrogant attitude from her and her Government that unless you agree to her carbon tax you will be labeled a denier sounds very communistic to me and the media are letting her get away with it.
      And I can’t believe the stupidity of this article especially the ridiculous headline. The con job was done on Australian voters in the last federal election campaign by Gillard herself….“There will be no carbon tax under a Government I led”

    • PTom says:

      12:09pm | 24/03/11

      So are you saying that China replacing old 300 MW with more efficent 1000 MW coal power station should be stopped and the people of China can go without electricity. Because the world needs to reduce emission.

      BTW It not China’s coal dependency is increasing it is China’s power dependency is increasing as they are building renewable and nuclear plant too.

    • Dash says:

      01:00pm | 24/03/11

      PTom, no I’m saying that Chinas demand for coal is increasing and they will import it in increasing quantities from us. And the ALP will keep encouraging our miners to send it to them and will keep taxing the profits. And the environmental impacts of selling them coal far outweigh any benefits to the environment of this tax in Australia.

      This is about taxation of middle and high income Australia. It is not about the environment! And that is the fraud (or the con job).

    • TChong says:

      07:19am | 24/03/11

      Hope everyone noted that as of yesterday, and presumably , today,( though Abbott does lie), that Tony, does in fact concede that global warming is real.
      Do all you climate change deniers know more than Abbott ? or do you reckon Abbott is a sell out?

    • TimB says:

      07:50am | 24/03/11

      Can you debate the merits of the tax? Or do you have to stoop to ridiculous arguments to try and deflect from the issue at hand?

    • David C says:

      08:22am | 24/03/11

      the debate is not about global warming/climate change reality ... climate changes, it is provable the earth has warmed in the past 100-150 years by 05-0.7 degrees celsius
      even the debate regarding mans involvement is fringe , although there is strong argument re other human influences on the climate.. such as deforestation. methane etc
      the debate is all about the future.. there is still a large amount of uncertainty and to claim certainty is play politics with the science. look at the deviations between models and reality, look at Mt Kiliminjaro etc the list goes on. None of this is to say it wont get warmer, just to question the severity. I mean we all handle a change in temp between winter and summer without too much fuss dont we?
      All Abbott is saying is to calm down and come up with the most rational, efficient way to move us to a future we all want of alternate energy. The desire for this is strong even without mention of climate change
      The answer is to make alternates cheaper not make fossil fuels more expensive .. those who can least afford it will be penalised the most with the latter

    • Anthony of WA says:

      08:34am | 24/03/11

      Mate, no one is denying the climate changes. What we are saying is that taxing us is not going to change that fact.

    • The Original Oz says:

      08:39am | 24/03/11

      Abbott is like Juliar - a politician who will say whatever it takes to keep them in the press. None of them are believable or trustworthy. There are so many holes in the AGW arguments that you can drive a truck through them.

    • TChong says:

      09:45am | 24/03/11

      Tony of WA , no doubt you ,like any sane person,are smart enough to know global warming is real, but have a look above and below, this article , and similar- plenty here like to pretend there is no global warming, Abbott was quite happy to appear at a deniers rally, and as we all know Abbott famously said it was all"crap”.
      It is Abbott and his automatic reactioary opposition to anything, which shows exactly why Turnbull will be LNP leader before the next Federal election.

    • LC says:

      09:56am | 24/03/11

      @ David C

      “All Abbott is saying is to calm down and come up with the most rational, efficient way to move us to a future we all want of alternate energy. The desire for this is strong even without mention of climate change
      The answer is to make alternates cheaper not make fossil fuels more expensive .. those who can least afford it will be penalised the most with the latter “

      My thoughts exactly. Too bad Nick is too busy screaming “DON’T PAY POLLUTERS TO POLLUTE!”, despite the fact we all know that’s not how the Coalition’s plan works at all, to care.

    • David C says:

      10:33am | 24/03/11

      TChong that was not a deniers rally, it was a rally against a Carbon (Dioxide) Tax

    • nihonin says:

      03:09pm | 24/03/11

      TChong, scam denier.  I get tired of being referred to as a denier, skeptic yes, so from now on I’m calling the pot black as well.

    • Joan says:

      07:20am | 24/03/11

      Gee whiz Australians know more about Direct action than they do about Juliar`s slug of a Carbon Tax on everything and no details. On a personal level Direct action means if I reduce my power useage at home and at work by 50%  and travel to work by foot or ride a bike….plant a tree in my garden and other CO2 absorbing greens….there would be an immediate effect on CO2 levels from my direct actionplan .....Juliar slugging a Carbon Tax will not reduce anything ... it is just a Tax -  Tax built on a hope that things may change.  All this talk of sacrifice….yep…...Juliar now the high priestess about to sacrifice manufacturing and jobs on her sacrificial table fueled by the Big Carbon Tax on everything… Julia in high priestess mode running around Australia preaching world doom unless the sacrifice is made to appease the New World Gods .... the Climatologists and their computer generated models.the New Age Crystal ball.. supported by the likes of Gaia man himself Flannery.  2011 can not get anymore ridiculous or bizarre. The natural disasters around the world just prove that natural forces of this planet Earth are stronger and more powferful than man

    • The Original Oz says:

      08:42am | 24/03/11

      But, but, but - Great know everything Guru Bob Brown said the cyclones and flooding were caused by the coal miners - he couldn’t be wrong could he ??????

    • Charlie says:

      07:21am | 24/03/11

      well nice to see the carbon tax haters and climate change deniers out in force, probably the same who would describe Cop Out Cambel as a visionary and strategic planner, while condeming labour governments infrastructure project construction as white elephants and missmanagment. but i guess you need to get your kicks.

    • PaulB says:

      08:25am | 24/03/11

      Well that was a coherent and well reasoned argument Charlie.  Made me a believer in the climate change religion….not.

    • The Original Oz says:

      08:43am | 24/03/11

      Piss poor arguments there Charlie.

    • GB says:

      08:50am | 24/03/11

      @Charlie. Give it a rest with all this “denier” bullsh*t. For somebody to be a “denier”, the theory they are “denying” needs to be irrefutably proven as fact and this is anything but. Let me guess, you were another of those lemmings calling it “Global Warming” until recently also? Just because people want the facts before conceding something exists, doesn’t make them “deniers”. Especially when their Government, already prevaricators of the highest order, are going to tax (punish) them for it. Labelling skeptics with this moniker is lazy and offensive, and the more Gillard and her blind followers like yourself keep doing it, the more p*ssed off people are going to get. Show us the proof of how a colossal new tax is going make one iota of difference and then maybe we’ll buy in. Until then, we’ll fight this to the bitter end. One way or the other.

    • LC says:

      09:47am | 24/03/11

      @ Charlie

      Here’s an idea: How about you start telling us how global temperatures will change if we introduce the tax, compared to the changes if we follow the Coalition’s plans?
      Or would you rather just bash the opposition as being stupid and not address thier questions?

    • Flexo says:

      07:28am | 24/03/11

      Let me say, the Rudd con job was brilliant - ETS? Health care? Lower cost of living? The Juliar con job was outstanding - carbon tax? Asylum seeker issue? Gay marriage? Health care? Home insulation deaths? So as far as I can see the ALP are in government and the ALP have been conning us since ‘07. Well what are we going to do about that?

    • stephen says:

      08:22am | 24/03/11

      Despite all that, the pathetic Liberals couldn’t get across the line in the last election.  I love the conservative rage - think about it, should things be sooo bad, why were they not in government?  Ohhh thats right conspiracy con job!  I think not - voters saw your useless Abbot/Mirabella/Bishop as not a viable alternative.  Perhaps concentrate less on con jobs and start with some decent leadership in the opposition.

    • Knemon says:

      10:01am | 24/03/11

      Well said Stephen @ 08:22. If the LNP had a different leader they would have romped in at the last election. More fool them if they are unable to see this, while Abbott is siding with what we saw yesterday - then he wont be leader of the LNP for much longer. The other LNP MP’s standing on the stage with him was also worth noting…Sophie, Bronny, Warren, what a trio…this is obviously causing a split within their ranks - A spill for party leadership is coming sooner rather than later.

    • Flexo says:

      10:41am | 24/03/11

      I don’t think the ALP crossed the line either, cause Bob Brown appears to be the PM. Why wouldn’t the confident Gillard take the carbon tax to a referandum election against Abbott? Because she knows she will lose and lose big.

    • Engo says:

      07:39am | 24/03/11

      So a direct action policy will fail to reduce CO2 emissions, as emissions intensive industries will be given funding to improve efficiency, and companies like newscorp will not be given anything as they are already CO2 neutral.

      Why does newscorp need any funding or help to reduce emissions when it is already carbon neutral? Why cry poor?

      Also I am yet to hear why a market based mechanism, with an inherently variable price on carbon, is somehow more secure and stable for business?  Industrial projects can take up to several years to fully design and construct. If an initial carbon price is set at $25/tonne, we do not know where it will be in say 3 years time. Sure, an estimate could be made out to $50 or $70/tonne, but what if the price is much higher or lower? What impact will that have on investment?

      Businesses can make estimations and plan for contingencies. But who can predict what the stock market will do in the next 3 years? And as a market based mechanism operates on a similar principle, how can business be sure it will be able to recoup costs of energy saving projects?

      As an example. From the 2010 NGA factors, black coal consumption generates 88.2 kgCO2 per GJ. Natural gas emits 51.2 kgCO2 per GJ. If a power station generating 350 MW were to plan to swap over from coal to NG, the saving generated would be 37 kgCO2/GJ. If the price of carbon was currently at $50/tonne, it would net a benefit of around $650,000. If the market price dropped to $10/tonne in the intervening period of some months or possibly a year or two, the net benefit would drop to $129,500, a loss of some $500k. A simple example which overlooks many complexities but illustrates some of the inherent uncertainties in a market based mechanism.

    • rob foster says:

      07:41am | 24/03/11

      Nick is a gutless ex Union spin doctor…No credibility at all….made some very personal and vicious attacks on ordinary people expressing their right to protest yesterday..is he against free speech like that neo nazi group Getup.

    • Knemon says:

      10:28am | 24/03/11

      rob foster @ 07:41am…You’re views on Neo-Nazism are somewhat confused. Nazi doctrine includes fascism, xenophobia, hateful rhetoric, anti-Semitism among other vile attributes, but more importantly it attracts disaffected individuals who tend to operate in isolated or underground factions.

      Now given that over the past few days I have been continually told that GetUp is nothing but a bunch of socialist left wing loonies then how can they possibly be Neo-Nazi’s?

      Take a good hard look at what we saw yesterday and tell me which group are more aligned with Neo-Nazism? Apart from your comment being totally wrong, it was also extremely distasteful and immature.

    • JT says:

      11:57am | 24/03/11

      ‘N’azi doctrine includes fascism, xenophobia, hateful rhetoric, anti-Semitism among other vile attributes’‘

      Yep. All attributes long associated with the Left.

    • Knemon says:

      12:33pm | 24/03/11

      I assume you’re being sarcastic JT - otherwise you are also somewhat confused.

    • iansand says:

      07:42am | 24/03/11

      The bit of the Direct Action Plan that I like is that the billions of dollars it will hand out to industry won’t cost the taxpayer a cent (unlike Ms Gillard’s carbon tax).  I haven’t found the bit of the plan where the Magic Pudding fits in, but I’m sure it’s there somewhere.

    • David C says:

      10:35am | 24/03/11

      Its sitting next to the NBN I belieev

    • Rosie says:

      07:49am | 24/03/11

      How can you say; “Abbott’s Direcet Action plan a direct con??????????”

      I heard Greg Hunt on Lateline last night so please allow Australians to think for themselves and choose what they feel is right for them and the planet. First of all give us some details on “Gillard’s carbon tax” the tax that she said she wouldn’t introduce in a govt she led during the election campaign before you can say the Opposition’s direct action plan is a direct con.

      If you are confident the carbon tax is the way to go seek a mandate bring on an election.

    • John A Neve says:

      10:18am | 24/03/11

      Rosie,
      Your post worries me. You say “please allow Australians to think for themselves”. Based on many of the posts you read, do they?

      I’ll offer you this Rosie, to do nothing is not an option. Whether Julia of Tony is correct, I am not sure. But I am sure of one thing, which ever way we go
      the Australian people will pay and big business won’t miss a beat, their profits will keep on keeping on.

    • Nafe says:

      11:19am | 24/03/11

      John, Why is doing nothing not an option?

      Assuming AGW is occuring, and the nominal temprature increases that are forecast over the next 100 years,

      What is the net benefit temprature wise of the carbon tax.
      What is the total cost over 100 years of a carbon price
      Then
      What is the net benefit temprature wise of the Direct action plan and cost

      What is the total cost of adapting to the changing climate?

      Only putting doing nothing into the equation will you really know if doing nothing is a viable alternative.

    • John A Neve says:

      11:51am | 24/03/11

      Nafe,

      To do nothing puts the onus on the next generation, you may not have children, but many people do. Because you cannot accept a little hardship, you may be condemning them to a lot.

      Mankind is having an impact on the environment and it is not a good one.

    • persephone says:

      12:01pm | 24/03/11

      Nafe

      both Stern and Garnaut - and many other economists who have studied the issue - factored in ‘do nothing’ and have come to the conclusion that taking action is cheaper than doing nothing.

    • luke says:

      12:15pm | 24/03/11

      persephone, john, Taking action doesn’t mean we have to have a carbon tax, there are many companies already reducing their carbon output and many investments into greener alternatives are happening as we speak. But lets be realistic, mankind cannot halt climate change, paying a tax to make us feel better is ridiculous.

    • Nafe says:

      02:40pm | 24/03/11

      Perse, John, Thank you for you replies. If “Doing Nothing” has been tested and it is cheaper to “Do Something” then cross it off the list.

      What strikes me is though that people disregarding anti carbon tax lobby as skeptics or deniers does not do justice to the debate.

      If people believe in the science or not is irrelevant to the debate. I am swinging away from my denialist position and are becoming more and more to the point of “I don’t know if man kind is contributing to AGW, but lets assume we are.”

      Now what needs to be looked at is
      1) Can we, as humans do somehting about our emmissions
      2) Is the cost of doing something worth the outcome
      3) can Humans really do anyhtiong to halt climate change.

      Now i have seen the “evidence” that we may be causing climate change, but i have not seen any evidence showing if we lower our emmissions by 5%, what the net result will be.

      I think Gillard and the carbon tax lobby will have more success in engaging the community by taking on board peoples skepticism plus not just labeling the anti carbon tax lobby as deniers.

      This position may just turn the electorate around.

    • persephone says:

      08:25am | 25/03/11

      Nafe

      all that’s extensively dealt with by the IPCC reports and by economists such as Stern and Garnaut.

      1. Yes, obviously we can. We know that some forms of electricity production, for example, emit more than others. So if we cease using - or reduce our use - of those forms of electricity, then we can reduce our emissions.

      That’s only one example, there are a myriad of others.

      You can reduce emissions in really simple ways - walking or cycling short distances rather than driving, turning off unused power appliances, buying local produce instead of goods which have travelled, etc etc.

      So, yes, as a country and as individuals we can reduce emissions.

      2. Again, yes. We’re already seeing the impact of severe weather events on the economy. We’re already seeng increased costs to farmers etc because of climate change events (which isn’t just drought).

      For example, we can’t say Yasi was directly caused by climate change. But we can say that Yasi like events will be more severe because of climate change. Say that’s a 5% increase in intensity (I don’t think these things are quantifiable, but bear with me for the sake of it….) - that’s probably a minimisation of the damage by several million.

      Severe weather events, occuring more frequently, is a consistent prediction of climate change scientists. Obviously severe weather events cost money. So mitigating these saves money.

      (Stern, Garnaut etc go into these sorts of issues in more depth. The insurance industry is another which recognises the impacts of cc on their business - there’s some areas where they simply will no longer insure for certain types of weather related risk, purely on the basis of cc projections for the occurence of that risk in that area.

      One small business owner I know is faced with bills of over $30k this year for flooding - he can no longer insure against it and so the costs of flood mitigation and clean ups will be passed on in full to his customers).

      3. If emissions cause climate change and we can reduce emissions then yes.

      However, we’ve already brought into climate change to some extent - the CO2 is out there and we can’t get it back. So the aim at present is to prevent temperatures rising in the long term.

      That’s why the aim at present is not to stop the temperature rising by 2020 but to limit this rise to 2 degrees.

      If we can stablilise the global temperature after that, at least we know what climate we’re dealing with and can plan for that.

      So yes we can, but it’s a long term aim.

      The short term aim is to limit the rise in temperature.

    • Elphaba says:

      07:59am | 24/03/11

      “In short Direct Action will cost a fortune, up to $30 billion, and it will be very inefficient in reducing carbon dioxide emissions.”

      So will Labor’s.  So both plans are shit out of luck when it comes to reducing carbon dioxide emissions.  This is just the same rubbish over and over again.

      You can’t convince people, Nick.  You’re thieves, plain and simple.  Here’s to you wiping boot prints off your backside in 2013.

    • Anne_N says:

      08:08am | 24/03/11

      Most of the ‘chicken little the sky is falling’ predictions of global warming can be alleviated with a good hard cull of the world’s population, starting with politicians.

    • Paul Davis says:

      08:11am | 24/03/11

      Doesn’t that picture look like a KKK leader rallying the troops to go huntin’ something?

      And isn’t he so sweet and innocent, having incited people for over a year now he claims people should be “nice”.

      This is not even a man, he’s a mouse who cannot say what he really wants to so he forces others to say it.

      Come out of your closet Abbott and speak your real mind. It’s not only climate change that is crap. So are all your rants.

    • PatC says:

      10:40am | 24/03/11

      How does this drivel add to the debate?

    • Who argues against pollution reduction? says:

      08:27am | 24/03/11

      Well said, Nick.

      But alas you’re trying to convince a bunch of right-wing ranting fools.

    • The Original Oz says:

      08:28am | 24/03/11

      From the article:
      “Global warming is an existential threat”
      What a load of codswallop. Global warming is currently an unproven fairytale that has a minority of very vocal scientists supporting it. This tax proposed by Juliar (and the alternative “Direct Action” proposed by the Mad Monk are both bad policy and unnecessary imposts on the people of Australia. Yes - Australia does need to reduce its reliance on fossil fuels but No a tax is not the way to go about it. We have an Environmental protection Agency (apparently) that currently has no teeth. beef up their authority, give the capacity to impose fines that actually hurt and get them out of their offices and in to forcing emission cuts on industry under threat of massive fines. In other words get the EPA doing what it is supposed to be doing.

    • Warren says:

      09:33am | 24/03/11

      “a minority of very vocal scientists” of a mere 98% of climate scientists, but then again what would they know, bloody scientists. They are worse than those crazies who think there is a link between smoking and cancer. Don’t listen to scientists. Listen to Andrew Bolt & Piers Ackerman, the real beholders of the truth.

    • bobw says:

      09:36am | 24/03/11

      OO:  “a minority of very vocal scientists”

      Delusional.

    • Ryan says:

      11:41am | 24/03/11

      @Warren: yes we know about the IPCC consensus, all 5 of those independent scientists? Your claim has been thoroughly debunked multiple times.

    • The Original Oz says:

      11:48am | 24/03/11

      Warren and BobW do you actually know how your 98% of scientists was arrived at??? It was part of a PhD thesis when over 10,000 earth scientists were asked a 2 question survey. The answers didn’t suit the Thesis supposition so this number of scientists got whittled down to 77 of which 75 gave the required responses - see the link here for more details - and after reading this do you still hold firmly to your 97-98% of scientists?????
      http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/01/03/lawrence-solomon-97-cooked-stats/

      Have a read and consider the implications for the IPCC and the whole Global Warming Religion that justifies itself on 97% consensus.

    • bobw says:

      01:34pm | 24/03/11

      OO:  “do you still hold firmly to your 97-98% of scientists?????”

      Not my figure, so I’ll leave that to Warren.  I’m not particularly interested in petty numbers games.  What I will say is that I “hold firmly” to the position that if you think “global warming” has been manufactured by “a minority of very vocal scientists”, you are delusional.

    • The Original Oz says:

      02:47pm | 24/03/11

      Bobw - You are firmly entrenched in the religion aren’t you Bobw. You won’t even consider anything that contradicts the Gurus Brown, Flannery and Gumnut. But the real point is that Juliar’s Carbon (Dioxide) Tax will do absolutely nothing to reduce emissions in Australia, will not reduce Co2 levels one iota but will drive business offshore, reduce employment levels and, as all the money raised from this tax (except the 10% that is sent to the UN) will go to compensate businesses and low income earners the tax will not add a cent to R&D toward alternative energies. So the only point to it is to dip the hand into the pockets of those that work to make a living and give the cash to those that don’t. Socialist Wealth Distribution.

    • bobw says:

      03:29pm | 24/03/11

      “You are firmly entrenched in the religion aren’t you Bobw.”

      Hmm, let’s see.  No.

      “But the real point is [snip - usual prattle] Socialist Wealth Distribution.”

      Ah, the old wingnut conspiracy theory.  Yep, the whole climate change thing has been masterminded by the Third International.  Personally I can’t wait until they bring Lenin out of cryogenic hibernation.

    • Chewy says:

      08:39am | 24/03/11

      Nick,
      The trouble with your carbon tax is unless you have carbon tariffs on imports of competing products all you will do is send Australian manufactering to the wall or offshore. I now small manufacturers who are S*%ting themselves.
      Surely you get this.

    • tom says:

      09:19am | 24/03/11

      have a look at this bloke’s bio - another rent seeker who has never held a real job in his life.

    • Bruce The Goose says:

      09:55am | 24/03/11

      Thats where labor get all their best people from!!!

    • Warwick Wakefield says:

      09:24am | 24/03/11

      The trouble with Tony Abbott is that he hasn’t completely escaped from the influence of John Howard.

      The way I see it, Howard didn’t for one moment accept that man made carbon dioxide emissions constituted a threat to the global temperature. But he saw that it was an idea that was becoming a part of the zeitgeist, so he pretended to go along with it, in a half-hearted kind of way, with his own cap and trade scheme. He also thought that, if the fear of of man made global warming increased dramatically, the governments of the world would take up the nuclear option, thus creating a huge demand for Australian uranium. He was trying to walk both sides of the road at the same time, and now Tony Abbott is doing the same.

      It is not really difficult to demomstrate that enormous numbers of the best atmospheric scientists in the world reject the man made global warming scare. A few minute search of the web will reveal that. In Australia, the percentage of the public which rejects the scare is increasing rapidly. When Garnaut claims that we have a battle between knowledge and ignorance he is using yesterdaay’s spin, for the secret is out; there is huge opposition to the global warming scare by very many of the best scientists from the world’s leading universities.
      Tony Abbott can’t capitalise on this because he claims to be a man made global warming believer (although no-one believes him.) We simply have to denounce the global warming scare campaign as much as we can. It is obvious that it is similar to the previous scare campaigns by academic political pundits, who told us that capitalism would shortly collapse under its own “internal contradictions,” and only a Soviet style “centrally planned” economy could sail through the treacherous waters of the modern industrial world. That scare had some plausibility on the surface, but look at what a fool’s tale it turned out to be. The cry that we will all fry from the effects of the killer gas, carbon dioxide, is just as crazy. We have to fight it tooth and nail, at every opportunity. We must give no quarter, for the ideologically motivated greens and their paid professors have the capacity to do huge damage to our community. We call it damage to our economy, but in simple terms it is the spreading of poverty. Please, do not allow this green garbage any place in your view of the world. It is a mean spirited fantasy. Fight it.

    • Warren says:

      10:03am | 24/03/11

      “huge opposition to the global warming scare by very many of the best scientists from the world’s leading universities.”

      Which scientists are you referring to? Methinks you are making it up. Links please.

    • GB says:

      10:42am | 24/03/11

      Seeing as you’re in the business of demanding links Warren, perhaps you can point us in the direction of the 98% of climate scientists you claimed are Global Warming believers.

    • GB says:

      11:25am | 24/03/11

      @emel. Firstly, you linked us to a page that doesn’t exist. Secondly,  “2000 - 2010 the warmest decade in history.”
      See, this is where you Global Warming alarmists let yourself down. You twist, omit and manipulate data to suit your own agenda. How do you know the last decade was the warmest in history when we’ve only been keeping records for the last 150 odd years? Given the earth is about 5 billion years old, that timeframe represents .00000003% of the earth’s existence. Pretty bold statement don’t you think?

    • GB says:

      11:33am | 24/03/11

      Thanks for the links Warren but how does that add up to 98%?

    • Warren says:

      11:55am | 24/03/11

      GB you are right. I haven’t come across a single climate scientist who doesn’t support AGW. I’ll change the figure to 0. If you find one who has published peer reviewed papers post the link.

    • Warren says:

      01:38pm | 24/03/11

      Thats about 35 people GB. You are right to be wary of this list. Ian Plimer is a known fraudster. I have a list of the scientific organisations confirming AGW. There aren’t enough days in the month for me to count all the contributors. If you have the time ...

      I revised the 98% to 100% on the grounds I have yet to see one peer reviewed paper supporting the “opposition to the global warming”.

    • GB says:

      02:43pm | 24/03/11

      I think you’re better off taking this up with The Original Oz a couple of discussions above this one Warren. He seems to have refuted your claims.

    • Warren says:

      03:12pm | 24/03/11

      As in “lets ignore the scientists, its all just wealth distribution”. Good plan.

    • Shane says:

      09:26am | 24/03/11

      It’s funny how history repeats itself. 

      1985 - Paul Keating introduces the idea of a GST in Australia and the idea is shelved by PM Bob Hawke.

      1991 - Dr John Hewson (LNP) makes GST the central platform of the re-election campaign.  Labor uses public distrust of GST to win the election.

      1995 - John Howard wins leadership of LNP and vows never to introduce GST in Australia.

      1998 - John Howard becomes prime minister and introduces the concept of GST.  Lacking a senate majority, LNP requires support from the Democrats to pass GST legislation.

      2000 - GST becomes a reality and we start being taxed on everyday purchases.


      Is it just me or does this all sound rather familiar?  I don’t think the concept of a politician saying one thing one day, and saying the opposite the next is really that shocking or unprecedented.  The flip flop nature of a party’s policy is much more concerning to me.

      Good to see someone’s actually taking a closer look at the policy from the other side of the fence.

    • Ironside says:

      10:50am | 24/03/11

      Actually your wrong, John Howard became prime minister in 1996, he then found a multi billion dollar black hole in the national accounts and dertermined to reform the tax system. one of the reforms was the GST, noting that he had gone into an election saying no to a GST he took it to the 1998 election and won a mandate from the Australian people for the introduction of the tax.

      That is exactly what Juliar gillard has not done. She is hoping to introduce this tax and then have the electorate focus on something else before the next election.

    • Knemon says:

      11:18am | 24/03/11

      Ironside - Howard said “never ever” - is that different to a lie? He also said we would end up with the best ETS in the world…they all spin shit regardless of which side of the fence they might sit.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:48am | 24/03/11

      @ The Punch What is going on with the Italics in this forum. Is there any chance of removing all formatting in the forum.

    • Anthony Sharwood

      Anthony Sharwood says:

      10:09am | 24/03/11

      @ZSRenn. It might be your computer/device. Sometimes weird formatting occurs when you read The Punch on different platforms. I’m at work reading this forum on a big lump of a thing on a desk and am seeing no Italics. Anyone else see anything? Maybe the carbon tax is wreaking havoc on your computer!

    • TimB says:

      10:11am | 24/03/11

      It was me, sorry ZSRenn. The HTML tags buggered up. Twice.

      I’ve localised the damage now, thank god.

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:21am | 24/03/11

      Cheers Anthony and thanks for the laugh!

      Seems the damn thing is gunna get me not matter what I do!

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      10:21am | 24/03/11

      ZSRenn

      Looks like a localised issue for you and Tim - no italics here on Chrome or Firefox.

    • TimB says:

      11:00am | 24/03/11

      Well it’s on IE at least.

      It’s completely my fault. I was using the italic tag to emphaises a point to Perse further up, and for whatever reason the close tag didnt work properly. It does that sometimes. Drives me nuts.

      End result is it starts formatting stuff in italics…but never stops. Only way to fix is for either some Punch techhie to go and edit or delete) the original post, or for another post to be made after it with the close tag.

      Which is what took me two attempts to do. You can see the result up there, about 4 or so posts between my initial one and my eventual fix still have italics. But at least the rest of the page has been sorted.

    • Knemon says:

      11:34am | 24/03/11

      TimB - change to chrome, less carbon wink

    • The Badger says:

      12:46pm | 24/03/11

      Actually, Ant it is TimB who thinks he is clever by using html codes to create bold and italics to highlight his idea of comments requiring emphasis.
      Ask one of your tech guys and he will verify this very quickly. Serial offender.
      He often turns all the comments to bold on my mozilla browser because he forgets to turn bold off after he initiates it in his comments.
      Tell timmie to knock it off and all will be well.

    • TimB says:

      01:19pm | 24/03/11

      No Badger, if the bold is an issue then it’s just your problem and your problem alone. Noone else has ever seemed to have an issue.

      And quite frankly, I don’t care about your problems. They’re as unimportant as you are.

    • The Badger says:

      01:34pm | 24/03/11

      timmie
      You should play with things you don’t nderstand.
      Very sloppy work young man

    • Ali says:

      09:57am | 24/03/11

      I think the science points to global warming it cant be denied. I have major concerns about the governments position or non position.

      How much can you attribute global warming to humans?

      How much will the carbon tax cool the earth?

      Why cant the productivity commission give a estimate on what the affect will be on a carbon tax?

      I know that Mr Rudd called climate change the greatest moral, economic and social challenge of our time and them walked away from it. If it was how Mr Rudd described it why did he walk away from such an issue?

      Why is Ms Gillard not think it so important before an election and now is?

      What about the community cabinet for climatea change where did that go?

      I dont think the Libs and Abbott plan of Direct Action is nothing more that a statergy thought up as you say by the policy makers. But the flip floping on this issue of the government makes the Libs Direct Action look like a brillant idea. 

      I dont not understand climate change fully, I dont understand the issues if we bring in a carbon tax, I look to independant sources and the government. And no one can give a direct answer, a direct figure or a simple we dont really know statement.

      Im joe public trying to get to the bottom of this issue as it will no doubt affect my children and all I get is blur and fuzz from the government and later the government will wonder why no one likes their carbon tax.

    • Thommo the Enlightened says:

      10:54am | 24/03/11

      No one is ‘denying’ it - You lose because of Godwins Law - you know that don’t you. Skeptics aren’t deniers. They question the climate sensitivity factor - do you even know what that is?

    • Ali says:

      12:18pm | 24/03/11

      Thommo the Enlightened

      Nope had idea on the climate sensitivity factor was I looked it up and in laymens terms more CO2 gets emiited warmer the earth gets. Man emits CO2 therefore man is responsible. Good that answers question1.

      Next?

      Also I note that Godwins law doesnt apply when it comes to propagander

    • Thommo the Enlightened says:

      11:35am | 26/03/11

      Godwins Law ALWAYS applies. And you obvioulsy didn’t understand the question about Climate Sensitivity. Explain why it should be greater than 1 when all signs point to it being around .7

    • Democrat says:

      10:20am | 24/03/11

      The hypocrisy of the coalition will become more obvious over time.  Direct Action sounds good but most people don’t yet realise that the direct action has a $10.5 billion a year cost attached to it.  That is money that they the taxpayers will have to fork out.  Either it comes from increased taxation to cover the cost or it will come from cuts to government expenditure - will it be from hospitals, schools?  Voters may also ask why the coalition is planning to spend $10.5 billion dollars to correct a problem that they tell us we as a nation can have no effect on.

    • GB says:

      12:06pm | 24/03/11

      Don’t worry Democrat. I’m sure they’ll be able to shut down a multitude of sh*tty, tin pot programs this government has implemented to find the dollars.

    • Warren says:

      12:21pm | 24/03/11

      Tony Abbott is not a complete fool. The argument that climate science is “crap” and that climate scientists are engaged in a huge conspiracy can only end in tears for him, much as the creationists were discredited as superstitious fools when they attacked evolution. It can’t help that his spiritual boss George Pell has decided that AGW proponents are “pagans”.

    • Thommo the Enlightened says:

      10:21am | 24/03/11

      Nick Champion - get back under your rock to ecotard. It’s people like you that make me sick to the core. You are without doubt ignorant beyond redemption. If you have any semblance of intelligence go and ready every single essay at Wattsupwiththat. If you are just another propagand pushing tool, then play on as you are.

    • Aaron says:

      10:57am | 24/03/11

      Yes, Julia lied. And we can all agree that it isn’t the first and certainly won’t be the last time that we see this from a politician, so let’s deal with it and move on!

      For me, a believer that something needs to be done about the current levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, neither of the two options that are currently being brandied about by either party is truly addressing and getting to the heart of the problem. Yesterday Julia stood in front of a wind farm for her TV moment of the day, yet she wanted to scrap a number of green initiatives to get the money for the rebuilding process after the floods and cyclone.

      We are lucky enough to live in a place that is diverse enough that we could utilise every bit of natural energy that is available, i.e. we have huge amounts of coastline that are subject to the great forces of the southern ocean, yet aren’t utilised, we have massive amounts of areas where extremely long and large tidal flows are experienced every day all year long, we have huge amounts of desert area where farming is extremely difficult because of the constant dry and arid weather, yet is once again not utilised.
      Both parties at the present time are walking contradictions, they both talk about cleaner and greener innovation, yet the products to utilise what nature already gives us is available, but no one is taking up the opportunity to make the best of it and start running with it. They both talk about investment in these areas, well how about they stop talking and start walking. It only takes a little to get a lot, so start leading by example and become proactive in thinking just slightly outside the very narrow box that you currently peer through!

      p.s. no italics are on my screen, but then i run a mac where everything works properly the first time everytime!

    • Sheridan says:

      11:08am | 24/03/11

      current C02 levels are dangerously low. You can help get back C02 levels to a more reasonable 550 parts per million by burning fuel whenever possible. Only you can save teh planet!

    • JK says:

      11:30am | 24/03/11

      Liberals can unwind or stop their carbon dioxide program.
      Labor cannot unwind an ETS.
      It is forever.
      It is irreversible.
      BIG DIFFERENCE.

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:08pm | 24/03/11

      How can you believe a person like Gillard, she’s a scare-mongering alarmist.(I checked with the ABC and they said that it was OK to call her that.)

      Her, I mean Bob’s carbon tax will not change the climate at all. It’s just a thinly disguised wealth transfer scheme.

      BTW here’s the links to protest rallies with Howard as a bitch on a chain, and even better Howard as a bitch on a chain licking Bush’s arse.

      http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-10/23/xinsrc_03c984f821cd4771ad11349fe407b9ee_anti-bush.jpg

      http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/55786701.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921F7C3FC3F69D929FD3D6E8E24F8AD364CA21AA6B74A99937FB5D0F22DA3805FBEE7C3DB1D2EA1C136

      Just wondering, do reckon Bob Brown wrote and commiserated with Howard? No? Didn’t think so. The bloody hypocrite.

    • Mick of Adelaide says:

      12:11pm | 24/03/11

      CARBON -Symbol C A naturally abundant nonmetallic element that occurs in many inorganic and in all organic compounds, exists freely as graphite and diamond and as a constituent of coal, limestone, and petroleum, and is capable of chemical self-bonding to form an enormous number of chemically, biologically, and commercially important molecules. Atomic number 6
      Carbon Dioxide - A colorless, odorless gas that is present in the atmosphere and is formed when any fuel containing carbon is burned. It is breathed out of an animal’s lungs during respiration, is produced by the decay of organic matter, and is used by plants in photosynthesis. Carbon dioxide is also used in refrigeration, fire extinguishers, and carbonated drinks. Chemical formula: CO2
      IT IS NOT A CARBON TAX - IT IS A CARBON DIOXIDE TAX. If the definition CARBON is used all items made from carbon could be potentially taxed. Diamond Rings are CARBON but do not contribute to global warming - pencils are CARBON - graphite but do not contribute to global warming….. you breathing emits carbon dioxide or CO2 this is what the tax is on and then that is quite literally man made CO2. This tax is a tax for nothing other than government revenue beware of the word CARBON used in any legal binding taxation document. All references to CARBON should be banned it is all about CO2 or CARBON DIOXIDE. Which as australiand contribute .000001 % to the world’s carbon dioxide output

    • Knemon says:

      01:06pm | 24/03/11

      Mick of Adelaide - Math not your strong point?  I’m guessing that you’re saying Australia contributes .000001 % to the world’s carbon dioxide output? Based on your statement “your breathing emits carbon dioxide or CO2”  this alone (not allowing for other CO2 emissions) would show the population of Australia at around 70 people, what about the other 22 million people…do they not breathe?

    • bobw says:

      01:48pm | 24/03/11

      Mick:  “All references to CARBON should be banned”.

      Now there’s a new one.

      If you must copy/paste lengthy extracts from thefreedictionary.com, could you please at least Australianise the spelling?

    • Sag says:

      12:16pm | 24/03/11

      This article is the usual Labor drivel, hardly deserves a reaction.

    • Puff the Magic Dragon says:

      12:20pm | 24/03/11

      Gotta Love Nick Champion!  Personally I think he wouldnt even place in the top 3 much less pop the champange cork and bathe himself in his own admiration and rhetorical compost well LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!  Didnt have much of a problem with BHP in SA but what possible environmental impact could a Mega Monster Petroleum and Precious Metals Conglomerate have in rural australia. Surely they mean well. I have to admit at least the Greens took a stand against it. (My point is?) pro or con on mining is not the point - Hypocrisy is.  Not a Greens fan either but at least they speak up their own agenda.  One small exception - Bob should “champion” the Greens Carbon Tax. Get real folks, do you think a ACTU Wharfie (Combet) or an “Administration & closet Social Liberal” (Swan). Julia (Green Puppet) would come up with this idea? JULIA: “Hey Bob Brown… what do you think about forcefully imposing a Carbon Tax on our constituents without any real details?” BOB: “Not a bad idea Julia….ummm C.MILNE: “Heck yes, lets go for it, Bob pull your head out!” Nick, you wont even speak up against your leader if you thought she was wrong… oh yes forgot theres a good reason for that, you have been told to behave. (less you become Minister for Portoloo Regulation Reform). As I stated I am not a Greens fan but THEY speak up. They are not afraid of the Labor Matriarch.  BHP in SA…well done Nick, the true “champion” of precious metals mining! (Gold, Uranium, etc)

    • Kevin Hicks says:

      12:23pm | 24/03/11

      The biggest con job of all is wanting to tax the air we breath.  They claim their is scientific evidence, but no one is standing up to provide this because it has been shot down by a barrage of scientific evidence proving it incorrect, now it is only economists pushing for a tax,  well this is to be expected, but it is based on economic not environmental concerns

    • Alan Pevie says:

      12:36pm | 24/03/11

      Correct me if i am wrong but don’t trees and everything green need CO2 to survive ? Don’t trees then convert CO2 into Oxygen for humans to survive ? Just plant more trees. Problem solved. No need for idiot politicians like Juliar to impose taxes. No more debate. Get on with it. Move on. Alan from SA

    • The Badger says:

      12:48pm | 24/03/11

      The cattle barons in Brazil will rip out old growth forests far faster than you can you can plant a sapling.
      Problem exposed
      No need for more idiotic comments from Al

    • David C says:

      02:09pm | 24/03/11

      what cattle barons from Brazil pull down forests in Australia and France and Japan and ....

    • The Badger says:

      12:57pm | 24/03/11

      Yes, these 1,500 (police estimate) lost souls at the “rally” were not sceptics, or deniers or right wing nutjobs, they were there to protest a carbon tax. LOL

      They were of course doing nothing of the sort, as evidenced by the slogans they carried on display.
      Carbon dioxide is a harmless gas you fraudulent criminals.
      The Polar Bears are fine.
      No multiculturalism: Assimilate and Integrate
      Illegals stay, Ozzies Pay
      ‘Pauline knew 10 years ago
      Bob Brown’s Bitch

      Doug Cameron summed it up quite nicely when he said he was concerned about ‘‘the disintegration of the Liberal Party’‘. ‘‘The barbarians are at the gate of the Liberal Party,’’ he said. ‘‘Who are these barbarians? They are extremists. They are Tea Party imitators. They are the remnants of Pauline Hanson’s One Nation. They are the radio and newspaper bullies whose ignorance is in direct proportion to their pay packet. If you get close enough, you can smell the fear of the Liberal Party moderates as Mr Abbott leads them down the dry well of fear and ignorance.’‘

      Hard to believe that Abbott thinks making himself the “poster boy” for the lunatic fringe will enhance his chance of re-election.
      All he needs now to complete his strategy is to make Pauline his deputy.

    • TM says:

      01:36pm | 24/03/11

      Don’t talk here about extremists from the right you lefty troll as look at the disgusting performance on this clip and the extremism perpetuated by Brown and Combet. Yet they are vocal in condemning yesterdays events?

      http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/found-footage-of-parliament-riot/20110324-1c7qq.html

      The hypocrisy is breathtaking! The left are nothing but an unruly mob that will stoop to violence, intimidation and destruction of government property…disgusting creeps that you are! Defend that you filthy weasel!!!

    • The Badger says:

      01:38pm | 24/03/11

      timmie
      You are under a lot of pressure with MarK’s curious absence from his role in mentoring you. So I’ll let this one slide. Your rage is confected like the icing your mum puts on your cupcakes

    • David C says:

      02:07pm | 24/03/11

      well if you are referring to the climate signs of which you mentjon 2—carbon dioxide is relatively harmless unless you get to 8000 ppm (currenlty 480 I believe) and yes the polar bears are fine as evidenced by their increase in numbers. Polar bears are fine according to the Inuit peoples and I think they might know?
      The Labor Party gets nutjobs at their rallies all the time ie Socialist Alliance, anarchists,  etc its just most Liberal Party supporters work so they dont hold that many rallies

    • woolycrow says:

      02:48pm | 24/03/11

      Abbott’s attendance at, and implied support of this rally amply demonstrates his lack of judgement and political naivety.  Time for a change of leader, methinks, so we can have a constructive Opposition again that engages in meaningful debate.

    • PJ Kaye says:

      03:13pm | 24/03/11

      Badger, You forgot about the dude from Bluescope, according to Abbott he is not an extremist., which is debatable. Bluescope offer a well balanced view, caring for the average Joe Blow…I wonder if he was the one holding the bitch sign?

      On a more humorous note - Yesterday backfired on Abbott badly…I do note he is now starting to grovel and separate Himself from the extremists, you’re either with them or you’re not Abbott.

      I believe MarK had a meltdown, as you suggested he would Badger.

    • The Badger says:

      08:46pm | 24/03/11

      PJ Kaye
      I have been telling him to take a break for a long time.
      He was way over the top. Morning noon and night.
      Took it far too seriously.
      I do hope he is alright. He seems to be a decent bloke.

    • Ryan says:

      10:37pm | 24/03/11

      @The Badger: which police? You sound like a GetUp troll. I know the director of GetUp was sadly exposed as a partisan liar on Ross Greenwoods show. Exposed as a liar just like you for claiming that the police told him a number but when the police were questioned they denied they gave a figure.
      Too sad you and your lefty mates look so desperate when ordinary working mom and dads came out to voice their opinion and you commies try to smear it into something it just wasn’t.
      Freedom of speech is ok in Australia just as long as you tow the lefty commie line right? Sadly Badger, not one arrest, unlike when Bob Brown and the unionists get going.

    • James Hunter says:

      01:20pm | 24/03/11

      Does the liberal party pay some of the people who post on this site ?

    • Elphaba says:

      01:28pm | 24/03/11

      That’s a bit rich.  Have you seen how many Labor acolytes are on the Punch today?  I thought GetUp must have sent you all an email.

      Everyone’s got an opinion… if there are any paid posters on here, I think educated, opinionated Australians of all political affiliations posting here for the fun of it are far outweighing them.

      Just because people disagree with you doesn’t mean they’re being paid to do it.

    • Dash says:

      02:01pm | 24/03/11

      James, If they do, could you get them to send me a cheque. I need some help paying off Gillard’s flood levy, her carbon tax and the soon too be lost private health tax rebate! If they send me $6,000 a year from 2012 might just pay for it.

      Of cause they might only be able to pay me if the money hasn’t already been paid to ALP backed builders with their noses in the taxpayer funded BER trough!

    • Ian F says:

      01:40pm | 24/03/11

      Wow the flat earthers are really out in force today.

      Amazing how these people will bang out the most ridiculous lines about how the economy is going to be ruined and how thousands of jobs will be lost. It seems like these people fail to understand anything about the realities of the world. Or they simply don’t want to talk about it because it completely destroys their arguments.

      There are going to be jobs in moving to a low carbon pollution economy. People will still have to be employed to design, build and run the power plants of the future. People will still have to be employed to design, build and run the massive changes in infrastructure required.

      This kind of move is actually about investment in our markets, in our people and in our technology.  The longer we’re held back by rent seeking deniers the more likely other countries way ahead of us on tackling climate change will place massive tariffs on our produce and materials because we’re not taking action!

      Then you can all cry how we’re ‘rooned’.

    • Kerry says:

      01:52pm | 24/03/11

      Arrogance will get you nowhere. Because people don’t want Gilllards carbon tax you shouldn’t label them deniers, flat earthers or what other derogatory term you prefer. This is a Gillard strategy that is getting up peoples noses.  AGW beleivers also don’t want a carbon tax, and that includes me.

    • David C says:

      02:00pm | 24/03/11

      what sort of real world do you exist in , how about the transition period? Do you honestly beieve old jobs will convert to new jobs on day 1?

    • Rayn says:

      09:03am | 25/03/11

      @Ian F: I am pretty sure the already exposed and thoroughly debunked, lying, alarmists are the flat earthers. They want us to just believe that we are all going to die if we continue to sail in that direction.

      Lets see how round the earth is today. http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/ yup still showing a divergence from your flat earth AGW theory. Sucks to be wrong doesn’t it.

    • chucky says:

      01:53pm | 24/03/11

      Anyone who’s sat through that asinine propaganda-fest known as Al Gore’s “An Inconvenient Truth” would have to be seriously dense not to see the HUGE elephant in the room. Fond as Al Gore is for graphs that “fit together”, there was one glaringly obvious correlation that nevertheless was largely ignored - as the world’s population has increased, so has the amount of CO2 we collectively pump into the atmosphere. So surely, if we’re taking all possible steps to mitigate AGW, we must endeavour to reverse the Earth’s population increase? From the perspective of Australia’s contribution to the perceived AGW problem, that should mean no more immigration, and no more foreign aid (basically, let nature take its course, and let them die right where they are). Hmmmmmm, not exactly politically correct, is it - but any AGW alarmist not addressing this fundamental point is a hypocrite.

    • barry says:

      05:12pm | 24/03/11

      Al Gore hasnt really help in the climate change debate.
      The Inconveient truth is more entertainment than a doco and shouldnt be taken to seriously

    • Kevin Hicks says:

      01:53pm | 24/03/11

      The Rally was made up of educated, well informed people, some of the signs showed their frustration with a Government that want to shove another tax on us, and won’t take notice of what the electorate says, and pls take it to an election, PM if you think you are right.  There were a few signs that were somewhat emotive, but I am yet to see a rally this doesn’t occur, and as we had a range of people there including Labor supporters and a few Greenies,  the signage showed a range of views.  In fact this rally was so successful, Labor have been attacking the rally, so I say it is a job well done.
      I am seeing a lot of screams that we are ignoring scientific evidence, but I expect it from the uninformed, as The scientific evidence does not support the Governments view, and more and more scientist are realising they were basing their support on falsified or misleading reports and have turned away from the man made allegations.  The evidence the Govt. is working with is from economists, mathematicians, zoologist and CSIRO scientists that work for the Govt. of the day so are biased to begin with.

      It is going to be embarrassing enough in the future to have people look back on history and how so many were fooled by a convenient lie.  If this govt. gets its way, we were be the laughing stock of history as the people that bought the lie that sold a taxation on AIR.

    • Still grizzling says:

      02:42pm | 24/03/11

      Do you realise that the liberals have the same intent? Except we will pay the polluters directly from our own pockets. All that is debated is about the Liberal party saying theirs will cost less, BUT, like the costings in their election outlay, foo bar. The economists say it will cost us more. This is not about the climate anymore. But THE ECONOMICS . THE LIBERALS SAY THEY WILL ALSO REDUCE CARBON emissions, so they ACTUALLY agree with the science ELSE why would they do that???  So stop the bollocks about proof this and disproof that, we are into the solutions faze now, We MUST move to non reliance on fossil fuels, where is the question? Spo we must move to alternative energy supplies. ummmm what we got left? who carse because we have no real choice except the model to achieve it ASAP. SO THE LIBERALS WILL TAX us to give to the polluters. While Labor want to TAX the polluters and give to us.

    • Geoff says:

      02:27pm | 24/03/11

      Champion?  A misnomer if I ever saw one.
      You’re a glass half empty kinda guy right?  I mean you cite all manner of environmental disaster.  You cling to it like it’s reality.  You cite Global Warming…  not Climate Change…  but time and again Warming has shown itself to be unreliable, hence the current usage of Climate Change.  Hence any weather event can be cited as due to man’s intervention.

      You apparently know more than the scientists since you broach no dissent or skepticism.  There is no uncertainty in your “scientific method”.
      You’d have been one of those guys who predicted the scientists would be proven right and the world would eventually be shown to be flat and the centre of the Universe.  I mean they were once widely held beliefs.

      i guess you believe everything in Gore’s propaganda film, even though it has been proven to be incorrect.  Just like the model predictions have so far failed to prove accurate.  but hey, that doesn’t matter to you right?

      As for Direct Action, it is a more sensible policy than Taxing people to prevent Climate Change.  Oh and please don’t even try saying you are only TAXING the big polluters, only Bob Brown would be dumb enough to believe that is a reality of the policy.

    • Get Real says:

      02:58pm | 24/03/11

      After listening to Champion on Sky News this morning i’m formally of the opinion the guy is a brick short of a load and would say anything to keep his job.
      How can you take any of them seriously after the crap they came out with about Abbott at the rally yesterday.
      These people are going to do to us Federally what State Labor has done to us in NSW.
      Lie after lie after lie.
      I mean Julias nose arrives 5 minutes before the rest of her when she shows up at Parliament.

    • astrid says:

      03:40pm | 24/03/11

      Im generally in favour of a carbon tax, but why didnt Kevin Rudd like the idea?

    • Puff the Magic Dragon says:

      04:35pm | 24/03/11

      BIG ISSUE: This is great. If you question the current regime, your an idiot. If you roll over and take it up the wazoo, your an idiot. There are arguments for both sides. Negative ecosystem CO2 imbalance at present. Yes I believe there is. The solutions? Firstly we all CAN do something about it. I plant trees regardless of the ravaging of rainforests (Labor should follow through on illegal Timber ban).  I use energy efficient bulbs. We live out in the Country so unfortunately I need a 4x4 to haul trees and heavy stuff off the land BUT we also have a 1.3 Mazda that we use 90% of the time truely (to save $$ too).  We all can do something. Questions: raise your hands! How may of you in favour of this tax have solar panels, how about solar heating? Me, I would if I could afford it, I promise you, and therein lies part of the problem.  I would have opted to postpone NBN (to give more up to date technology time to cost itself in), I would have better micromanaged the BER so that money didn’t blow out in variations and margins and would have awarded based on best value versus lowest bidder that slapped me with $$variations. (sad that so much money is lost), Batts scheme? Great idea, but handled once again by Union bureaucrats. THEN I would have subsidized programs making it easier to afford updating your homes. Possible? YES. Probable? No. Simple? No way.  Current Govt programs? Scaled back for the most part. Folks I WAS a strong LABOR supporter. Remember “Kevin 07” woo hoo party time… well thats long gone. He dug his own hole and thats the price you pay when you represent a FEDERAL UNION.  Thats NOT government. A lot of the MPs are/were Labor Bosses that “toe the line” to the Matriarch and their own factions. If it wasn’t for them outspoken loose cannon greens (TIC) we wouldn’t hear internal opinions or contrasting views! Liberals do it all the time but get attacked for it! I believe contrasting internal ideology is paramount to a healthy government.  What shocks me is that freedom loving people would roll over and accept something as historic as this Tax WITHOUT full disclosure on the details and have the courage to invite public scrutiny leading to a mandate. Its a variation somewhat similar to “taxation without representation” that contributed to a bit of a skirmish in North America around 1776. Stalin imposed a tax right after a famine.

    • Thommo the Enlightened says:

      11:37am | 26/03/11

      No in fact you are way wrong - we hsould be aiming of C02 levels around the 550 - 650 ppm mark - that would in fact be beneficial for plant and food growth. Going backwards is teh WORST thing we could possibly do. Go read some Australian History , namely the stories of Wirrun - and how they defeated the Glaciewrs taht encroached on Australia. Unless of course you’re racist and hate aborigines then just go about your business with your head in the sand and your arse in the air waiting for carbon traders to reem you for every last cent you’ve got. NWO shill

    • Billy B says:

      05:04pm | 24/03/11

      TChong - “which shows exactly why Turnbull will be LNP leader before the next Federal election. ”  In your dreams Chongy.

    • PJ Kaye says:

      07:07pm | 24/03/11

      Billy B - I don’t know about Turnbull but I’ve got a ‘monkey’ to say Abbott wont be.

    • woolycrow says:

      06:05pm | 25/03/11

      Turnbull will be reinstated as leader within 3 months.  Abbott is taking the Libs down a dark path.

    • LC says:

      05:21pm | 24/03/11

      “The policy briefly refers to an ‘expert panel’ who will manage the fund and who will penalise companies who don’t comply with the terms of the grants allocated.
      No mention of who might be on the expert panel and what qualifications they might need to have, no mention of oversight and accountability, no mention on how many climate change sceptics they might appoint to the expert panel. In terms of accountability Direct Action is an accident waiting to happen, an accident Australia should well avoid.”

      From the sound of things it’ll be more of a watchdog panel rather than a panel for debating climate change. Regardless of whether skeptics are present or not, it’ll have little outcome on the result.

      And yes, from a ALP politician this is a bit rich. May I ask what happened to the citizens assembly on climate change which was promised by your party during the election?

    • Cry Baby Gillard says:

      11:03pm | 24/03/11

      Gillard it’s all about you you you you.  You are determined. You are going to.  You will be.  Replace the you with I, and that’s about right.  I (in the right context) belived she belonged to a party called Labor, or is Gillard running for sole leadership and throwing over the party in favour of a one man band.  She’s looking a little peaky don’t you think.
      If she looks like she does now only after a short period of time, imagine the look in a few more months.  If you are so sensitive darling, get out of politics.  Sexist, what a load of garbage you dish out.  Oh no , I think I’m going to cry.  Just thinking of America’s achievements - they can do anything.  It brings a lump to my throat. Kevin cried, and instead should have punched your lights out and defended himself against your bully behaviour.

    • George says:

      02:24pm | 25/03/11

      DÉJÀ VU: 1954, Scientists Seeking Funding Tell Congress That The Arctic Might Be Navigable By 1979

      And without the help of trace gas, plant food CO2!!
      24 Mar 2011


      Page 2


       

      Here is the text of the article …

      Arctic Ice Thaws
      Washington, Fri.

      The ice-packed Arctic Ocean might become navigable in another 25 or 50 years if the pre- sent “warming-up” tendency of the Polar region continued.

      This was stated yesterday in the United States Congress.

      Several American scientists sought funds for US parti- cipation In the “international geophysical year” - a worldwide scientific undertaking designed to glean new understanding of the earth’s surface, inner structure, oceans, atmosphere, and weather.

      The big project-scheduled for 1957-58, with scientists of about 30 nations expected to participate - could result in improved weather forecasting and better means of communicating by radio.

      AAP.


      http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/1954-scientists-seeking-funding-tell-congress-that-the-arctic-might-be-navigable-by-1979/


      http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/1769713?zoomLevel=1&searchTerm=warming arctic&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-availability=y

    • DWGW says:

      05:31pm | 25/03/11

      I cannot believe this report from a man who bagged the Australian people’s right to come to canberra and express an opinion.
      Everyone is demonising CO2, saying it cause temperature rising. This goes against all the laws of gases (it cannot happen beyond what heat CO2 takes in) If this was true Jupiter and Mars with 97% CO2 atmosphere would have rampant, raging temperature fluctuations, which doesn’t happen.
      I would have more respect if I didn’t know Flannery is shareholder of a company who got a $94 million dollar grant from the Govt to try to do something which is failing (clean energy from hot rocks)
      Climate alarmist say “change your habits” and I know plenty of people who have already, but still cant pay their power bills.We’ve cut ours by $200 a quarter, but cant go any lower. What do you people want? All of us to shower in cold water and not drive a car? Sure!

    • Lisa Meredith says:

      12:36pm | 26/03/11

      Dear DWGW,

      How does the greenhouse effect work? When CO2 absorbs a long wave infrared photon emitted from ice-free earth and water, it assumes a vibration. When the vibrating CO2 molecule collides with another gas molecule this vibration gives the collision an extra kick of momentum and both molecules leave the collision travelling at a faster velocity than before the collision. This is what we measure as heat in a gas.

      Eventually the CO2 molecule emits the absorbed photon and it flies off into the atmosphere in any direction where it can be absorbed by another molecule and the process begins all over again. This is called scattering.

      Mars’s atmosphere is mostly CO2 but it’s pressure is too low for the greenhouse effect to give Mars temperatures anything like Earth or Venus. For example: the average atmospheric pressure on Mars is 600 Pascals, or 0.087 psi, compared to Earth at 101.3 kiloPascals, or 14.69 psi.

      Jupiter has only trace quantities of CO2 in its atmosphere which is primarily 90% hydrogen and 10% helium.

    • George says:

      11:01am | 28/03/11

      Hey woolycrow you wrote ...
      “Warmbull will be reinstated as leader within 3 months”

      Yes. hopefully he will resign from the coalition and join the Labor left where he belongs!

    • John says:

      06:45am | 30/03/11

      And people fall for what this…..and his cronies say.Geez.Have a look at their antics in completely disregarding the Westminster Style of government in Queensland.Complete power at any cost including being unethical.Is that good for Australia?

    • Obob says:

      03:13pm | 31/03/11

      An Instructional Anecdote On CO2 Warming

      I once bought a house that had fuchsia walls in the kitchen and family room (really).

      I spent all night painting the rooms with a coat of white paint, and when I was done, I found that some of the fuchsia still showed through the white paint, making it
      kind of light pink.

      A second coat of white made the wall nearly perfectly white.

      The effects of CO2 in the atmosphere are similar, with the first coat making for the most warming and later coats having much less effect but still adding a bit.

      At some point, the wall is white and more coats have no effect.

      —————————
      The Warming Effect Of CO2 Suffers From Diminshing Returns

      The radiated energy returning to space consists of a wide spectrum of wavelengths.  Only a few of these wavelengths are absorbed by CO2.

      Once these few wavelengths are fully absorbed, additional CO2 in the atmosphere has no effect whatsoever.

      Also, these absorbed frequencies overlap with the absorption of other gasses, like water, which further lessens the incremental effect of extra CO2.

      What does this mean?

      In effect, the warming effect of CO2 is a diminishing return relationship.

      The first increase of, say, 100 ppm in the atmosphere has a greater effect than the next 100 ppm, and so on until increased CO2 has essentially no effect at all.

    • Generation Whinge says:

      10:36pm | 03/04/11

      @Obob, thats a new one, where did you hear this? I would love for this to be true, I follow the science on this topic from albeit from an amature point of view and among experts in the field I have never heard the saturation theory. Please tell me where you read this & lets hope its not some coal funded creationist with qualifications unrelated to climatology as usual.

    • Troy says:

      03:33pm | 11/04/11

      Nick you are the one who is a con artist!!!! How can anyone believe a tax to the Gillard government will save the world is beyond me. As far as I can see Abbotts idea is the only one that makes any real sense. If you believe in this Global Warming crap, then surely the idea of reducing Carbon Dioxide by direct action is the only way to actually reduce what you see as the problem. The only way a Gillard Lie tax can reduce anything (but you hip pocket and jobs) is if the whole world gets on board, and pigs will fly before that happens. The real reason for this tax is to fix her totally blown budget, due to failures on every single policy Labor has tried since 2007. Europe has tried this method and failed along with there economys, the US has totally ruled it out, as has China and India and Russia.
      Spain, Greece, England, Greenland have either sent there countries broke or are on the way to being sent broke in the name of Global Warming, so why would we sacrifice our economy to join them? Australia is a pimple on the arse of this earth and our 1.4% of CO2 emissions does absolutely nothing to contribute to Global emissions, so there is no way you ever convince me to ruin our economy in the name of the Greens.

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