As a chartered aircraft carries Tony Abbott into Nauru this weekend he will have asylum seekers on his mind, but his first glimpse of the island should remind him of another type of refugee.

Cartoon: Peter Nicholson

It could be that in 20 to 30 years the 10,000 folk of Nauru (maximum height above sea level: 65 m) will be climate change refugees looking for somewhere dry to live.

As the Opposition Leader lands seeking a pledge that under an Abbott government Nauru would again be available as a processing centre for boat people detained on the western flank of the Australian continent, the locals might be preparing a few demands of their own.

Would Australia accept the population of the 21 sqkm island should it be inundated by rising sea levels? That might be one.

But there should be other questions on other issues which the leaders of Nauru might ask. They will be keen for a renewed Australian presence there, but who exactly would that be?

Between 2001 and 2007, when Nauru was part of the Pacific Solution devised by John Howard’s government, the detention centre was overseen by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and managed by the International Organisation for Migration, plus the Australian military.

Services were basic. One visitor in 2005 tells men certain bodily functions could only be conducted in the morning because that was when water was available for flushing. That might not have been standard operating procedure, but it was then.

However, there were other issues bothering the authorities.

“The Pacific Solution, including the use of Nauru, was a deeply problematic policy, both as a matter of principle and for those refugees and asylum-seekers affected by it,” a Canberra spokesman for the UNHCR told news.com.au last week.

“UNHCR is not aware of any proposal by Australia for processing on Nauru and as such we will not be speculating on this matter.”

A Bangkok spokesman for IOM said: ``I’m afraid that I can’t speculate on something that, as far as I know, has not been discussed by Australia and Nauru, let alone been proposed to IOM.’‘

So who would run a detention centre under an Abbott government? (It seems pretty certain the Julia Gillard Government won’t take up the option.)

“The UNHCR and IOM would be welcome. We have confidence in Australia’s ability to uphold our own human rights standards,” replied Liberal immigration spokesman Scott Morrison—another passenger of that plane - to an email inquiry.

Mr Morrison also said: “We have total confidence in the ability of Australians, working with the Nauruan Government to ensure that services, facilities, conditions and processes at Nauru would satisfy Australian human rights standards and the expectations of the Australian community.

“No one will need to be tagged to avoid getting caned in Nauru. If the IOM or UNHCR wish to be part of the arrangements on Nauru, they would be welcome, as they were last time we operated the centre.”

The Abbott aircraft passenger, who will include reporters, might also ask what Australia would have to pay to get the former detention centre functioning again. It might be a considerable amount.

Paul Maley of The Australian accompanied Mr Morrison on a similar trip during the August election campaign last year.

His report began: “About 20 broken-down dongas are all that remains of Nauru’s main refugee detention camp.”

Mr Maley further reported “lurid green scrub” had overgrown much of the area not taken up by demountables with boarded-up or broken windows. There were no power or water supplies.

“A staggering 90 per cent of the population is unemployed, making Nauru dependent on foreign aid, fishing licences and the dregs of its phosphate industry. The evidence of Nauru’s dilapidation is everywhere,” he wrote.

“Rusted car hulks festoon the roadside; many of the houses seem empty. Some lack windows, or even doors.”

That gives a pointer as to why the Nauruans might welcome a return of the asylum-seeker business, but it is unlikely they will not have conditions.

Last August, Nauru’s Foreign Minister Kieren Keke said the country would not tolerate indefinite detention, and would not forcibly repatriate failed asylum-seekers.

Meanwhile, the Government’s deal with Malaysia to take asylum seekers, which we first heard about on May 8, still hasn’t been concluded.

Despite Julia Gillard’s confidence earlier last month, there is no accruement for a swap of asylum seekers for processed refugees now in Malaysia.  She spoke too soon.

That is why Mr Abbott and Mr Morrison and the reporters are flying into Nauru—to underline that the Coalition has a deal and the Government doesn’t.

Don’t think the Government wouldn’t be keen to upset the tourists by producing a pact with Malaysia just before Mr Abbott touches down on Nauru.

198 comments

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    • Super D says:

      01:00pm | 10/06/11

      Rather than send refugees to Malaysia, why don’t we just flog them here when they arrive?  I reckon we’d only need to flog a single boatload and the flow of boats would stop stone dead.

    • Bobster says:

      01:03pm | 10/06/11

      That might work, you know, if any of the agreed upon facts in Australia on asylum seekers resembled anything like facts.

    • Craig says:

      02:09pm | 10/06/11

      Better yet, we could just execute a boatload (or better yet, give the navy some target practice)!  Just make the treatment they’ll receive here worse than what they got in places like Afghanistan or Sri Lanka and they’ll be sure to stay away!

      Oh, that’s right, doing anything of the sort would be a violation of international law, and these people haven’t broken the law at any rate.

    • nihonin says:

      03:15pm | 10/06/11

      Considering there was another riot at Christmas Island last night, why doesn’t the government not repair what has been destroyed and not replace any equipment damaged.  Show them the same amount of respect they are showing us, the Taxpayers of this country.

      Don’t attack me either, we provide, shelter, medical, food, internet, tv, books, phones and outdoor entertainment.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      03:24pm | 10/06/11

      And now they are bringing leprosy in to the country ... 
       
      What next? Smallpox?

    • Super D says:

      03:36pm | 10/06/11

      The point is we have now agreed that its ok for refugees to be flogged and have simply outsourced the flogging to Malaysia

    • Tony D says:

      04:23pm | 10/06/11

      Great idea. Yes. I’d like to flog the lazy bastards who I am forced to employ when they don’t turn up for work, when they’re lazy, come in stoned, drunk or just don’t give a crap. I’d like to cut their hands off when they steal from my business.  Now that WOULD improve life for employers in this country and productivity (amongst ‘Aussies’) would rise enormously so then I would not have to rely on the excellent work I get from my staff who were born overseas!!

    • Bobster says:

      04:45pm | 10/06/11

      Exactly. The people have spoken.

      We didn’t want these people here. They need to know to stay in there (spelling mistake intentional) country.

      We should sink them, drown them, send them back, chuck ‘em camps or whatever, that’s what the plebs have called for.

      The ALP has delivered an abhorent, unethical solution.

      And now the same mob that wanted to shoot any and all refugees on sight screams for compassion.

      In the immortal words of the greatest politician of them all, Diamond Joe Quimby, I’m sick and tired of you people.

    • persephone says:

      05:09pm | 10/06/11

      Super D

      no excuse for this kind of ignorance - you read the posts yesterday.

      Part of the agreement between Australia and Malaysia prohibits caning.

      BTW, my understanding is that caning is an option chosen by the person caned; they have been found guilty of a crime, and are given the choice between a hit of the cane and a month in prison. Every hit they take reduces their sentence by a month.

      Not the way we do it, but also not quite as it’s portrayed.

    • Matt says:

      07:37pm | 10/06/11

      Come on now persephone, you show your own ignorance all the time. Fairs fair, after all.

    • MHW says:

      08:12pm | 10/06/11

      Nicholson’s a genius! Actually the solution for Christmas Is. is SO bleedn’ obvious: outsource the guard services to Malaysia. We’d save a squillion .. and the boats would bypass the island entirely! NO more riots! Only Aussie guards would cop such abuse on an ongoing basis. No wonder Asians think we’re a joke!

    • persephone says:

      08:54pm | 10/06/11

      Matt

      glad you agree that Super D is wrong on this.

    • Christian Real says:

      04:52am | 11/06/11

      Craig
      It’s people like you that don’t deserve to be even called Australian, you are a blot on our great Country,so get lost and take your extreme radical Un-australian idealism with you

    • acotrel says:

      06:55am | 11/06/11

      John Howard can never be vindicated!
      He very well knew that when he denied them access to our courts through a writ of habeas corpus, that he was denying their fundamental human right in any western democracy.  The High Court of Australia recently passed down a decision that asylum seekers can a ccess our courts.  What Howard was doing WAS ILLEGAL ! The Pacific Solution was almost as obscene as the ‘Final Solution’ !

    • acotrel says:

      07:23am | 11/06/11

      @Tony of Poorakistan There are not many places left in the world where smallpox is endemic.  Perhaps we should refuse to accept asylum seekers who’ve been working in research laboratories where the last remaing live examples are kept?”

    • Matt says:

      08:38am | 11/06/11

      You are misrepresenting me persephone. I expect an apology post-haste.

      Besides, can someone be truly wrong when using sarcasm? Or do you take everything literally?

    • persephone says:

      09:56am | 11/06/11

      Matt

      oh good, so if I don’t apologise you’ll refuse to reply to my posts?

      Win win.

    • Matt says:

      11:57am | 11/06/11

      If that’s what you want to think persephone, go for it.

      And I’ll make the assumption on that basis that you have no credibility (kind of like the ALP).

    • B says:

      12:39pm | 11/06/11

      @acotrel

      Stop with spouting habeas Corpus.  They are not entitled to its protection as it only applies to UNLAWFUL detention.  These people are being detained for breaking Australian Law.  This is NOT unlawful detention.  Also Habeas Corpus only extends to the limits of Sovereignty of that nation.  So the UN laws HAVE NO BASIS IN habeas Corpus.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus

      Do some research for once Acotrel

    • acotrel says:

      04:46pm | 11/06/11

      @B Why was the High Court decision handed down giving asylum seekers access to the courts?.  I suggest you read Julian Burnside’s book ‘Watching Brief’!

    • acotrel says:

      10:31pm | 11/06/11

      I wish the LNP would cease crying crocodile tears about asylum seekers who might drown on the way to Australia. The truth of their feelings is expressed clearly in the hatred in the posts on various forums.  It’s difficult to understand how professed christians can behave this way towards fellow human beings? Xenophobia and paranoia must be a powerful combination?

    • Fiona says:

      09:11am | 12/06/11

      Tony of poorakistan &acotrel;, where do you think we have smallpox outbreaks?  The CDC? Are we getting asylum seekers from there now? Smallpox was eradicated years ago (early 80s, I think), it now only exists in a couple of labs.

    • marley says:

      01:44pm | 12/06/11

      @Persephone - I don’t know what planet Tony is living on, but it isn’t this one.  The last case of wild smallpox occurred in 1977.  There was a lab-caused case in 1978.  Hasn’t been another case since.  The chances of hordes of refugees coming in with it is, shall we say, improbable. 

      As for leprosy, it’s an easily treatable disease which is perhaps more common than we think - the US has around 100 cases a year.  Should we ban American tourists, do you think?

    • acotrel says:

      02:07pm | 12/06/11

      @Fiona What do you think I just said to him? We’re not a bunch of Yanks who need to hit everyone over the head with a sledge hammer

    • loulou says:

      06:09pm | 12/06/11

      @Christian Real   Off-topic, C R -  but Bob Katter is looking for good candidates.  You mentioned State or Federal politics a while back

    • Jim says:

      01:10pm | 10/06/11

      Geez Mal, a couple days of absolute floggings handed to your girl Jools and all you can come up with is some abstruse and timid attack on Abbott? We all knew it was coming, and we all knew it would be a crock of shit…but this isn’t even up to your usual low standards.

      Kudos for managing to combine climate change with detention centres, AND you covered another Gillard lie with a throw-away comment “she spoke too soon”...I don’t think I’ve seen any spin cram so much in.

    • Bobster says:

      01:18pm | 10/06/11

      Do you think Mal cares? The lefties accuse him of being a Liberal stooge and the right wingers think he’s a Labor stooge.

      What does that tell you?

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      04:03pm | 10/06/11

      He’s a stooge?

    • n_dude says:

      04:39pm | 10/06/11

      @Bobster - Mal is obviously nobody’s stooge.

    • buckyboy says:

      09:16pm | 10/06/11

      Yes..another well researched, balanced, probing expose from the doyen of balanced, unbiased journalism. Inter governmental/arse licking media despatches have instructed Mal and the other Canberra press stooges to concentrate on Climate Change and Tony Abbott’s trip to Nauru. Mal being a lazy bastard tries to combine both in one crap sheet. ...Lift your game Mal!!
      BTW…Mal is it true they have to use a longer couch on the insiders when you are on the show?

    • Kevin says:

      01:18pm | 10/06/11

      Yes.  And Mr Abbott might care to look at the gigantic hole in the middle of the island and contemplate what happened to Nauru’s sovereign wealth and why its inhabitants are now in the position where they have to beg to clean the dunnies of our boat arrivals in order to make any money.
      Once any mineral is dug out of the ground, it’s gone forever.

    • Gordo says:

      02:39pm | 10/06/11

      So Kevin are you suggesting we leave the minerals in the ground in Australia?

    • Bobster says:

      03:05pm | 10/06/11

      Chief, I think he’s talking about tax and Mr Abbott’s aversion to forward planning on such issues.

    • Richard says:

      08:18pm | 10/06/11

      Bobster, yet another tax is not “forward planning”, it is sovereign theft.

      If you want a bit of an insight, listen here Bobster and Kevin et al. Nauruan society is broken because all of the mining wealth was redistributed to the populace as welfare. Yes that’s right, you heard me. The NPC was (and is) owned by the Nauruan government, and all of the profits were distributed to the citizens evenly. With a free income of over $40,000 (this was quite a sum 20~30 odd years ago), which required no effort on behalf of individual Nauruans to accrue, their society degenerated into one characterised by laziness, alcoholism and corruption. With no incentive to work or achieve an education, they just collectively stagnated and declined to the stage where they basically all became morbidly obese, diabetic and diseased. And now that all the Phosphate has run out, they find themselves broke too, without any prospects in the slightest for improvement.

      There is a lesson here Bobster, although I’m sure you’re too stubborn to heed it. But it goes something along the lines of this: “Government intervention in the private sector, government taxation and government wealth redistribution is ultimately ruinous to any society in every conceivable circumstance.”

      Kapiche?

    • Bobster says:

      11:06am | 13/06/11

      Jesus, we better watch out for Tony Abbott’s direct action carbon plan, his maternity leave levies, his middle-class welfare obsession, his baby bonuses and so forth.

      The bolshy bastard will be the ruin of us all.

      At least we have Labor to champion the free market economy for us seeing as the Libs have apparently turned red.

    • Matt says:

      01:19pm | 10/06/11

      “By 2010 the number of environmental refugees could grow to 50 million, the UNU-EHS predicts. According to other estimates, there could be as many as 150 million by 2050.”
      http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1118_051118_disaster_refugee.html

      Kind of like the 50 million current climate change refugees, Mal? That was the prediction after all (kind of like your prediction). Can you please confirm for us how many climate change refugees there are currently?

    • Ben says:

      01:28pm | 10/06/11

      “It could be that in 20 to 30 years the 10,000 folk of Nauru (maximum height above sea level: 65 m) will be climate change refugees looking for somewhere dry to live.”

      The CIA World Fact book puts the population at 9,300 (what’s a 7.5% discrepancy among friends?).  Predicted sea level rise of 1.1m in 90 yrs is absolute worst case. CSIRO put recent trend at 3.2mm/yr. That’s 28.8cm in 90 yrs.  So I really doubt that all 65 metres of Nauru will be under water in a few decades.
      Spin harder, Malcolm.  Or better yet, actually do something useful.

    • Bruce says:

      01:29pm | 10/06/11

      Malcolm: I believe if the sea waters rise on Nauru, Australia and the rest world will have even greater problems to deal with. There is very little the mighty human race can do about it, other than to observe what changes nature deals us. Nature will make it happen and thats the way things have gone for millions of years. We, or New Guinea might be able to look after the 10,000 people on Nauru. Hang on !! I know what will fix it, a carbon tax, yep, thats the way to go, nature will surely come to heal, and surrender to the mighty human race. No more climate change, problem solved.

    • RyaN says:

      01:32pm | 10/06/11

      Can we have a real journalist on the punch please, this partisan fool is just too pathetic.

    • Bobster says:

      01:47pm | 10/06/11

      You’re still struggling with the concept of the opinion piece, aren’t you?

    • RyaN says:

      02:27pm | 10/06/11

      @Bobster: I care for opinion pieces but this relentless garbage propaganda spewed forth under the guise of “opinion piece” is just vomit worthy.

    • iansand says:

      02:41pm | 10/06/11

      RyaN is struggling with the discovery that other countries are actually doing something.  It is a bit of a shock to his insular system.  Not to mention that he has not yet had the directive from head office about how to deal with the issue so he has to rely on his own, scarce resources.

    • Bobster says:

      02:46pm | 10/06/11

      Head back to Bolt’s blog then. He can “tell it like it is” for a while and you’ll feel better.

    • Nick42 says:

      03:31pm | 10/06/11

      RyaN as Bobster go to an opinion writer that tells you what you want. It is not like Akerman or Devine do not spew out propaganda for the liberal party or if you cannot read it maybe you can listen to Alan Jones. You remind me of a right wing version of someone I know who buys the Socialist Weekly - complaing about the other side without acknowleding your side comes out with garbage at the same time.

    • RyaN says:

      03:54pm | 10/06/11

      Ah I get it now, it must be OK to have someone spewing forth this left wing propaganda here because “other people in other places do it”.

      Yes I have heard this infantile argument ad nauseum, I can’t wait to for iansand to represent me in court on that one. I can see it now,
      “I set fire to his genitals and burned him to death your honor, its OK because another lady did it in Perth and she got off scott free.”

    • RyaN says:

      04:05pm | 10/06/11

      @iansand: yes I am struggling with the US, Russia, Japan, China et al pulling out of the Kyoto agreement, I am sad that they are doing something and our leaders with zero mandate seem hell bent to keep heading towards destroying our economy and the very last bit of competition we have in the world marketplace.
      The really sad part is the human cost to this, not that you rich lefty latte sippers give a flying rats arse about the average Aussie battler losing his job when the companies move operations offshore.
      Hell screw them hard, send em broke, destroy the country, bring in some more “recessions we had to have”, who cares, maybe they will learn the hard way not to vote for a bunch of millionaire elitist lefties.
      I am sure Cate Blanchette and Mal Farr will be the first to complain about all those horrible, disgusting people with their kids living on the street begging.

    • RyaN says:

      04:09pm | 10/06/11

      @Nick42: “complaing about the other side without acknowleding your side comes out with garbage at the same time. ” so you are acknowledging then that this ^ is just political propaganda style garbage?
      I tell you what, I will read and condemn one sided articles from Ackerman and Devine when they write obvious propaganda style garbage like this on the punch, deal?

    • iansand says:

      04:25pm | 10/06/11

      That, RyaN, is a matter for you and your therapist.  Perhaps the green pills?

    • ThE BaDGer says:

      04:59pm | 10/06/11

      ryan
      just go back to the bolt blog and get your dose of right wing fringe feel good.

      You obviously can’t handle opinions, so go get the facts that agree with you.

      Take this with you
      Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
      Aldous Huxley

    • RJB says:

      04:59pm | 10/06/11

      It is obvious that either Farr does not read any blogs and is there-fore ignorant that his"love of all things Labor” is very apparent or, he does read them and holds opposing views in contempt.

    • Seano says:

      06:56pm | 10/06/11

      Someone who posts an opinion you disagree with is a “partisan fool” but those you agree with don’t seem to get the same accusations leveled at them.

      What do you think says rAyn?

    • Bobster says:

      07:30pm | 10/06/11

      You’d have a point, Ryan, if the Punch had set itself up as anything other than an opinion site.

      You get Sophie Mirabella and a roll call of Libs on here having their spray. You get left wing brigade from the ALP to the Unions and beyond.

      For Pete’s sake, even Erick got a column.

      You’re talking out of your arse.

      If you want to whinge about bias do it at News, SMH or the ABC.

      I think you’d still be full of shit but at least they’re appropriate places to expect unbiased reporting.

      Why do you think throwing accusations of bias and corruption at everything you disagree with is going to do any other than make you appear a prejudicial ass?

    • RyaN says:

      09:14pm | 10/06/11

      @Bobster: did I say I had an issue with it because I disagreed with it? I have an issue with it because its just blatant partisan garbage.

    • RyaN says:

      09:18pm | 10/06/11

      @iansand: wow, is that the best comeback you have? The repetitiveness of said pathetic comment is becoming quite tiresome, perhaps some medication for yourself?

    • RyaN says:

      09:25pm | 10/06/11

      @ThE BaDGer: “just go back to the bolt blog” sure mate, what makes you think I was ever there?
      Perhaps this is what you and the rest of you paid up Labor department of propaganda would love, so you can sit here and cluck cluck about a completely farcical partisan piece and cluck cluck to each other on how great you are are screwing up the country.

    • ThE BaDGer says:

      10:00am | 11/06/11

      Know you’ve been there mamaMate because you spout the same bullshit bolt does. Not so hard to see the similarities in your posts.
      He does it for the money and notoriety, you do it because you’re an easily lead idiot

    • RyaN says:

      10:20pm | 11/06/11

      @ThE BaDGer: perhaps we are just both smart enough not to be played by corrupt communist child porn lovers.

    • RyaN says:

      02:01am | 12/06/11

      @The Badger: I take that back, ALLEGED child porn lovers http://bit.ly/hPgkmo

    • Bobster says:

      11:20am | 13/06/11

      RyaN disagrees therefore it’s communist propaganda - it is, dammit, it is.

    • RyaN says:

      11:34am | 14/06/11

      @Bobster: it is what it is, sadly I disagree with communist propaganda, terrible person that I am.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:41pm | 10/06/11

      Well, Persephone got her wish - an article that mentions climate change and supports the ALP…

    • Bobster says:

      02:49pm | 10/06/11

      Criticism of the Liberal Party =/= support for the ALP.

      It is possible, believe it or not, to criticise one without affirming your support for the other.

    • Aitch B says:

      03:09pm | 10/06/11

      @Bobster

      What? You didn’t know??

      Um…. Persephone herself admits that she is a paid up card carrying member of the ALP so in her case criticism of the Liberal Party DOES equal support for the ALP.

    • persephone says:

      06:57pm | 10/06/11

      Wasn’t my wish, Elphaba.

      I wanted a discussion thread for the Productivity Commission’s report.

      It didn’t have to support the ALP.

    • LeftRightOut says:

      08:50am | 11/06/11

      c’mon Bobster, you think Mal is neutral?
      Just go back and read say the last 50, 100 pieces… LOL (pronounced LOL)

    • Gregg says:

      01:45pm | 10/06/11

      Mal,
      The coalition will not have a deal for they are not the government but it does no harm for them to revisit the previous option to get a first hand idea of work required.

      As for future migration that may be occasioned in 30 years, 300 or 3000 years because of sea levels, that will be relevant at ther time to the governments of the day.

      It should not also be overlooked that Nauru was also relevant at the time only because a facility at Christmas Island had not been developed and by itself was not a resource to deter people smuggling, the use of TPVs being the means for that and the revoking of the policy by the Rudd government as much an enticement for people smuggling as anything.

      It will remain to be seen what the current government will fool with if 800 asylum seekers arrive soon enough and then more continue to come.
      Meanwhile the stupid and irresponsible act of the Rudd government has seen us get 6000 odd people who have decided to jump the queue, something that is hardly a trait acceptable by most Australians and such people may have a greater difficulty being assimilated into our society than the average refugee will have.

    • Jay Santos says:

      01:59pm | 10/06/11

      John Faulkner says “cultural reform is essential for Labor”.

      He goes on to say there “something deeply wrong when we use polling to determine our party’s policies and even our values”.

      Invoking the SIN principle, Kevin Rudd nows chimes in demanding Labor’s rank and file “take the party back” from factional powerbrokers who are a “cancer”.

      Yet Malcolm Farr - once again - finds something to complain about Tony Abbott.

      This is fast becoming as predictable as the execrably unfunny Clark and Dawe and the entire Julia Gillard cheer squad at the ever-diminishing Fairfax.

      If the Liberal Party was in such a toxic disarray it would be front page news and millions of pixels and hectares of trees would be devoted by the hacks to underscoring and shrieking about what they (the media) knew all along.

      Wailing from the Canberra hacks would be a daily ritual until the LIbs affected a leadership coup, preferably with a small ‘l’ Turnbull at the helm.

      It’s also a pity that Mr Farr glosses over the fact that the Nauruans predicament is largely of their own making having squandered a vast financial legacy through piss-poor money management, shonky investment deals, rorting and corruption.

      The Gallery just needs to figure out how to weave Tony Abbott into that for tomorrow’s deadline.

    • Jay Santos says:

      05:09pm | 10/06/11

      “...Fortunately for the Libs little mention was made of Mr Reith’s review of them…”

      WOW SmAge hack and Labor apparatchik Phil Coorey pulls out a ‘me-too’ “recently finished” internal dissertation about the Libs…just in time for the publishing deadline.

      Purely coincidental of course.

      I guess that makes him and Fairfax bipartisan now.

      And witness the “hyperbowl”:

      “...former Howard government minister Peter Reith has ruffled feathers in the Liberal Party…”

      Too bad the balance of the article makes no qualitative or quantitative assessment as to who or how many “feathers” were “ruffled” and to what degree the ruffling was effected.

      I smell a SOP cadaverous Fairfax beat-up.

    • luke says:

      02:02pm | 10/06/11

      Mal, where is the proof that sea levels will rise even 5 meters in 30 years time? So for Gillard’s sake, lets hope Malaysia isn’t underwater in 30 years time, we might have to find room for 20,000,000. You wonder why there is so much scepticism when so called journalists write such ridiculous comments. Pathetic would not even described this dribble.

    • sludger says:

      02:09pm | 10/06/11

      I love opinion pieces.  They give people like Mal a chance to be extremely creative.  Gotta love the working in of a> climate change b> refugees c> soft approach to Julia’s (sic) policies and d> a veiled swipe at the opposition.  A true work of art.

    • Craig says:

      02:11pm | 10/06/11

      Look at the places these asylum seekers come from.  Afghanistan.  Iraq.  The Tamil refugee camps of Sri Lanka.  All pretty horrible places where pretty horrible things happen.  If we want to implement a “deterrent”, and we want it to be effective, it’ll have to be worse than what refugees face in their own countries.

      Do Tony Abbott, Scott Morrison, or the rest of the boat-people-panic brigade really have the stomach to do those sort of things?

    • Ben81 says:

      02:46pm | 10/06/11

      “If we want to implement a “deterrent”, and we want it to be effective, it’ll have to be worse than what refugees face in their own countries.”

      No, all we have to do is once again create a situation where people smugglers can’t guarantee they’ll get people to Australia so their whole business model is shot.

    • Craig says:

      03:05pm | 10/06/11

      Detention is in most cases preferable to being beheaded by the Taliban or similar horrors.  I mean, setting off into the ocean in a leaky boat that may or may not sink halfway through is obviously preferable, because there are people who still do it even after all the tragedies that we’ve had.

      So, if your alternatives were having your head cut off, getting the cane in Malaysia for looking at a local the wrong way, or sitting in relative comfort and safety in a detention centre on Christmas Island or Nauru, which would you choose?  I know which one I’d pick, especially if there was even a small chance that I’d be able to land and live in a wealthy Western country.

    • Simon says:

      07:09pm | 10/06/11

      @ Ben

      That’s right, and it’s good to see that the Government is doing just that.

    • Ben81 says:

      08:00pm | 10/06/11

      Maybe so Simon, they’re going to have to hurry up and finalise things for it to work though and actually start sending people to Malaysia aren’t they.  The premature announcement of it doesn’t seem to have done much, a good chunk of the 800 places have been filled already it seems.

      Craig - there were millions of people looking for that preferable situation when Howard was running the show and there’s still millions now, I don’t remember Nauru overflowing though and clearly remember detention centres closing down rather than opening.
      You seem to think the only way we could have stopped them is by offering them a worse alternative to beheadings or something. Well that didn’t happen and the people smugglers were put out of business, are you suggesting there was a secret island where all these people that must have still been coming were kept?

    • Simon says:

      09:39pm | 10/06/11

      @ Ben

      No, there’s no need to rush anything. It’s been a long term global issue which requires a long term regional agreement. The important thing is that the countries involved get it right.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:26pm | 11/06/11

      @ Simon “No, there’s no need to rush anything.”
      If the government wants the policy you brought up to have any effect (I assume that’s what you meant by “the Government is doing just that” anyway), then yes they certainly do.  Merely announcing it doesn’t seem to have done anything and the 800 places will fill up before we know it.
      As for a longer term solution that’s been proven in the past… well you work it out.

    • Simon says:

      09:13pm | 12/06/11

      @ Ben

      No, they don’t. It’s been a long term global issue which requires a long term regional agreement. The important thing is that the countries involved get it right.

    • Ben81 says:

      09:57pm | 12/06/11

      Of course it needs a longer term agreement Simon, I was responding to your idea that there’s “no need to rush anything”.  I just said they need to hurry up if they want this particular policy to be effective at all because merely announcing it hasn’t done anything and actually delivering on their words might.  I’m not sure why you have a problem with that.

    • Simon says:

      08:56am | 13/06/11

      @ Ben

      I just said that it’s been a long term global issue which requires a long term regional agreement. The important thing is that the countries involved get it right, so there’s no need to rush anything. I’m beginning to think that your concern is less with refugees and people smuggling and more with trying to make some cheap domestic political point.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:03pm | 13/06/11

      Simon are you for real?  What’s so hard to understand about this?
      The government has announced a policy where 800 people will be sent to Malaysia in return for 4000 refugees to be sent here.  The idea is that it will be a deterrent because while those places are still available the message will go out that those arriving here won’t get in and will be sent to Malaysia.
      The government has announced the policy without backing it up with action and those places are filling up fast. They simply have to get the agreement finalised fast and start acting or it will fail, the 800 places will be filled before there’s a chance for it to work, end of story.

      What cheap political point is to be found here?  Is pointing out the plainly obvious fact that the policy isn’t working and it might if it’s backed up with action a ‘cheap political point’?

    • Simon says:

      04:01pm | 13/06/11

      @ Ben

      Yes, it is.

      It’s been a long term global issue which requires a long term regional agreement. The important thing is that the countries involved get it right.

    • Ben81 says:

      06:34pm | 13/06/11

      Holy hell what an absolute stubborn twit.  You’ve parroted the same empty line a few times now, what does it have to do with the fact that this particular policy isn’t effective and simply won’t be unless Labor hurries up and finalises it?

      I can’t put it any more simply for you, the policy hasn’t had an effect by merely announcing it and to say that there is no rush to actually act on it when the places are already filling up is plain ridiculous.
      Do you actually think you’re saving face or something by copying and pasting your last meaningless avoidance over again because you’ve backed yourself into a corner?  Gee I wonder what your next response will be.
      Learn when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em next time, unbelievable.

    • Simon says:

      07:43pm | 13/06/11

      @ Ben

      So I was right. You’re less concerned with refugees and people smuggling than with trying to make some cheap domestic political point. Next time just say so and spare us the BS.

    • Ben81 says:

      08:58pm | 13/06/11

      This is getting sad.
      Just look at what you’re saying, you’re refusing to accept the most trivial little plainly obvious fact simply because you can’t admit you spoke without thinking, and are even so desperate that you’re now trying to attack me over it.

      Either the government drags its feet and nothing changes, or they back up their words with action, get the agreement finalised, and give the policy a chance to be effective.  Its whole point is to send a clear message and the time is running out to do that by their own making and admission, the more of the 800 places that fill up before anything happens the less time there is to send out that message, it’s plain as day.  I can’t for the life of me see any political reason for you to deny that or how there’s any points to be scored there.

      Go ahead and post another little brush off if it makes you feel better or act your age and admit 2 + 2 = 4, whatever. I think i’ve finished with you for now.

    • Simon says:

      10:24pm | 13/06/11

      @ Ben

      Thanks for proving my point, yet again. I simply agreed that all we have to do is create a situation where people smugglers can’t guarantee they’ll get people to Australia so their whole business model is shot, but you had to try to make some cheap domestic political point. At least your ensuing comments confirmed that’s what you really care about. Next time just say so and spare us the BS.

    • Ben81 says:

      02:39pm | 14/06/11

      “I simply agreed that all we have to do is create a situation where people smugglers can’t guarantee they’ll get people to Australia so their whole business model is shot,”
      No, you said “it’s good to see that the Government is doing just that.”, and then contradicted yourself, then went on to play games over the most obvious basic fact.

      - Government announces policy
      - Doesn’t seem to be having an effect, limited places already filling up
      - You absolutely refuse to accept that there’s a pressing need to actually implement the policy before those places fill up, simply because you don’t want to admit to being wrong.

      What a stubborn vapid child.
      I wonder if this post is “proving your (imaginary) point” too, does it really get any weaker than that one?

    • Simon says:

      06:43pm | 14/06/11

      @ Ben

      Thanks for proving my point, yet again, complete with more bonus playground name calling.

      What contradiction ?

    • Ben81 says:

      07:45pm | 14/06/11

      “Thanks for proving my point”
      You don’t have one Another weak copout like all your replies.

      I’m not wasting any more time your stupid little game, already wiped the floor with you enough times.  Bye.

    • Simon says:

      09:20pm | 14/06/11

      @ Ben

      Wimping out already ?

      My point was that you’re less concerned with refugees and people smuggling than with trying to make some cheap domestic political point, which you’ve now repeatedly confirmed, complete with some bonus playground name calling.

      Now, what contradiction ?

    • Against the Man says:

      02:22pm | 10/06/11

      Remember if you want policy to fail than you can depend on the Gilltard mob. They do a great job in jumping the gun on announcing policy success and they love to forget about the details and for an encore they switch to a whole new topic so that we get distracted from their previous policy failure.

      The best part is they get a paycheck and all those perks funded by us the taxpayer to make our lives that much more miserable.

    • ZSRenn says:

      03:45pm | 10/06/11

      The reason they constantly have policy fail is they never research anything before they implement it.

      Reading this story by Mal he never reseaches anything either.

      No wonder Mal loves the Labor team so much

      TA is doing reseach before he puts its up as hard policy and Mal is having a go at him for doing so.

      I guess Mal doesn’t like TA doing his job because it makes him and Labor look bad.

    • Felipe says:

      09:59am | 11/06/11

      ZSRenn,  you nailed it,  I was thinking the same things reading Mal’s article.  I doubt it if Gillard and Bowen ever heard of the caning and maltreatment of refugees in Malaysia before they announced the deal.  Gillard is always caught short on policies because she is an amateur leading a bunch of more amateur mps. 
      Gillard has damaged Australia’s name overseas after years of negotiation by past leaders Keating and Howard.  She is truly an embarrassment of a PM.  How come Mal Farr couldn’t see it that way.

    • Ben81 says:

      02:22pm | 10/06/11

      Ignoring the absolutely ridiculous argument of sea level rises making the place unviable, of course things are run down there when they haven’t been used for years and nobody is funding them.  it’ll cost money to get it up and running again.
      Compare it to the cost of intercepting people smugglers boats and locking up thousands of people in immigration detention centres we’ve had to re-open all over the place for who knows how many more years and you’ll see it’s pretty good value for money as it was in the past, no matter what the twits say who look at the cost while disregarding the money that doesn’t have to be spent elsewhere.

    • Andrew1 says:

      02:26pm | 10/06/11

      The most astounding thing to come out of all of this is Labor’s lies, bullshit, smear campaign, negativity, backflips and slandering they have used against the Coalition way back from before Rudd was even PM. They used it to help them get elected in 2007 and hounded Howard and the Coalition with help from the Greens and all their supporters marching in the streets etc.
      They used it against Abbott up until 6 or 7 weeks ago purely for political advantage even though they now have decided there are more votes in Abbotts approach. Now they back flip and march around trying to deal with a mess they have created .
      These guys are the biggest hypocrites this country has ever seen. Gillard is a liar, changes position on issues every 5 mins, backflips have become normal, she has a vile mouth, calls Abbott names and acts like a bully.
      You may hate Abbott and his policies but he stays consistent, he has courage and conviction, he doesn’t lower himself to call Gillard names and you know what your going to get from him.
      Does anyone know who the bloody hell Gillard really is? Or what she stands for?

    • Craig says:

      02:47pm | 10/06/11

      Maybe not, but I know what Tony Abbott stands for: an Abbott in the Lodge, and nothing else!

    • Carolyne says:

      03:16pm | 10/06/11

      Craig -  you trying to say Gillard and her boyfriend in the Lodge is better?

    • Nick42 says:

      03:41pm | 10/06/11

      Please Andrew1 are you a Liberal Stooge? Abbot has said repeatedly that you cannot trust him unless something is written. Also there are plenty of examples of Abbot’s change of mind about a variety of topics so please do not tell me he has the courage of his convictions or that he is consistent for gods sake he was member of the Howard front bench that lied for most of their terms. By no means is this comment an endorsement of Julia as that is the part of your comment that is correct but I am getting sick of tired of people trying to tell me that one side lies and not the other. Basically your comment says you are a Liberal fanatic and your point is no more relevant than a Labor fanatic, National fanatic or a Greens fanatic. This means you are a member of one of the biggest problems in Australian politics the supporter who cannot believe his/her side is a problem.All politicians are liars and hypocrites.

    • Nick42 says:

      03:41pm | 10/06/11

      Please Andrew1 are you a Liberal Stooge? Abbot has said repeatedly that you cannot trust him unless something is written. Also there are plenty of examples of Abbot’s change of mind about a variety of topics so please do not tell me he has the courage of his convictions or that he is consistent for gods sake he was member of the Howard front bench that lied for most of their terms. By no means is this comment an endorsement of Julia as that is the part of your comment that is correct but I am getting sick of tired of people trying to tell me that one side lies and not the other. Basically your comment says you are a Liberal fanatic and your point is no more relevant than a Labor fanatic, National fanatic or a Greens fanatic. This means you are a member of one of the biggest problems in Australian politics the supporter who cannot believe his/her side is a problem.All politicians are liars and hypocrites.

    • Nick42 says:

      03:42pm | 10/06/11

      Please Andrew1 are you a Liberal Stooge? Abbot has said repeatedly that you cannot trust him unless something is written. Also there are plenty of examples of Abbot’s change of mind about a variety of topics so please do not tell me he has the courage of his convictions or that he is consistent for gods sake he was member of the Howard front bench that lied for most of their terms. By no means is this comment an endorsement of Julia as that is the part of your comment that is correct but I am getting sick of tired of people trying to tell me that one side lies and not the other. Basically your comment says you are a Liberal fanatic and your point is no more relevant than a Labor fanatic, National fanatic or a Greens fanatic. This means you are a member of one of the biggest problems in Australian politics the supporter who cannot believe his/her side is a problem.All politicians are liars and hypocrites.

    • Craig says:

      04:44pm | 10/06/11

      Carolyne - the topic at hand is Tony Abbott, not Julia Gillard.  We can discuss her at any of the many fine articles on The Drum criticising Gillard.

      On a side note, I’m continually amazed how Liberal supporters would rather discuss Labor politicians and Labor policies, rather than try and convince me that Tony is the right man for the job, or indeed that he’s anything other than a career politician only interested in himself.

    • Andrew1 says:

      05:03pm | 10/06/11

      Hey Nick42 x 3 - yep I’m a Liberal stooge.

    • acotrel says:

      04:54pm | 11/06/11

      @Andrew1
      ‘You may hate Abbott and his policies but he stays consistent, he has courage and conviction, he doesn’t lower himself to call Gillard names and you know what your going to get from him.
      Does anyone know who the bloody hell Gillard really is? Or what she stands for? ‘

      So what is Tony Abbott’s vision for Australia’s future?  What shape does his utopia take?  He’s constant alright - constant nothing!  He’s a hollow man. Gillard stands for MOVING F ORWARD

    • nossy says:

      02:49pm | 10/06/11

      Any chance of “Toxic Tony” staying on Nauru Malcolm and doing Australia a big favour ? Honestly you would think the way he goes on millions of Asylum Seekers arrive by boat but in actual fact most arrive by plane. Abbott is as lightweight a politician as I have ever seen and the sooner he is replaced the better. Imagine if you will Australia in the hands of Abbott, Morrison and the crimson faced inumerate Barnaby Joyce - god help us Malcolm !

    • Matt says:

      03:14pm | 10/06/11

      D you even know what an asylum seeker is nossy?

    • Jay Santos says:

      04:24pm | 10/06/11

      “...in actual fact most arrive by plane…”

      With documentation no less…unlike our aqua-arrivals.

      But don’t let such pesky facts get in the way of a good rant.

      A few squirts of WD-40 might get rid of your rust problem.

      Not sure about the blindness though.

    • nossy says:

      04:47pm | 10/06/11

      @Matt - I was waiting for a big brained bastard like you to tell me fella !  hahahahah

    • nossy says:

      05:24pm | 10/06/11

      @Jay Santos - hey Jay are you related to Matt ? Not a full brain between the two of you - but you made nossy laugh anyway !  hahahahha

    • fox says:

      07:26pm | 10/06/11

      The way nossy avoids giving a straight answer and instead prefers to giggle is very remniscent of Julia Gillard..

    • nossy says:

      07:41pm | 10/06/11

      @fox - sweetie are you “in the family” too - jay and matts relos !  hahaha say what was your question young jay - you dont seem to have asked one fella ! Still “brain depravation” seems to run in the family doesnt it old girl ! hahahahha

    • Knemon says:

      03:00pm | 10/06/11

      When you’re unemployment rate is running at 90% you would appreciate anything that might create employment, even if it’s peddling in human misery.

      I’m totally amazed that 10,000 people can live on a 21SqKm pile of bird shit, good god - I’m never complaining again!

    • S Earve says:

      03:00pm | 10/06/11

      Mal Farr, depsite his girth, is one of the light weight journalists this country is swamped in. Witness his anemic effort in the debates last year ...

    • Ad Hominim says:

      04:30pm | 10/06/11

      Why play the man S Earve. The flaws in his argument speak for themselves. Girth or any other physical attributes are entirely irrelevant.

    • fairsfair says:

      03:18pm | 10/06/11

      I can see it now…

      “We will not return to the Pacific Solution because without a Carbon Tax the Island nation of Nauru will be underwater within weeks and we don’t want to risk the NBN cables which have already been delayed due to WorkChoices in Malaysia”.

      I wonder what else could be shoehorned into that statement?

    • Rowdy says:

      03:55pm | 10/06/11

      Rowdy likes this!!!

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      07:50pm | 10/06/11

      fairsfair, since you asked - a ‘Watch’ website for the carbon tax, Nauru sea levels, the NBN and Malyasian refugees living conditions.

    • Rushhour says:

      03:23pm | 10/06/11

      I can hardly string two words together ... I even know this was non-sense!
      Is this all you got? I’m wasting a Friday afternoon on this ... Please publish.

    • Lucas says:

      03:23pm | 10/06/11

      Refugees AND Climate Change in the same article?!?!? People should keep this article and show it to their children for a perfect example of blind faith and dogma of Australian journalism in the early 21st century. I sometimes don’t know what planet some journalists live on. Planet Cate?

    • ausspud says:

      03:32pm | 10/06/11

      what a crappy article, i think nauru are very keen to house the illegals and who gives a stuff what the UN think.
      and as for including global warming/climate change/?,the less said the better.

    • Carl Palmer says:

      03:44pm | 10/06/11

      Malcolm, I noticed that this it was posted at around 12:40. This piece is all over the place, I think you had a couple too many at lunch?

      Anyway, I always love the sea levels rising bit – I can see Bondi beach lapping up against the Penrith Panthers footy Club.  As for Nauru, implement the Pacific solution – this will fix the asylum seeker problem whilst at the same time giving Nauru a much needed income stream for the country. Too easy.

    • RyaN says:

      04:22pm | 10/06/11

      @Carl Palmer: no you don’t understand, according to climate alarmists, the sea levels only rise near pacific islands, everyone else just needs to pay a carbon tax.

    • Joan says:

      04:05pm | 10/06/11

      Who exactly is paying for the chartered aeroplane?
      If as I suspect it is the taxpayer, I formally withdraw my support for Mr Abbott.
      If he wishes to indulge himself in flights of fancy he can jolly well pay for them himself, as he does not have the authority to make or sign deals on behalf of Australia.

    • XXX says:

      04:55pm | 10/06/11

      You are wrong. The Liberal party chartered the flight. Apology can be given any time you like

    • buckyboy says:

      10:01pm | 10/06/11

      The official statement here is that Gillard vetoed the official request from the opposition for a Commonwealth aircraft to fly to Nauru. The opposition are now using a private charter aircraft at their on expense.
      BTW…Joan….your support for Tony Abbott??????????????????

    • The new boy in town says:

      04:22pm | 10/06/11

      AitchB.. You say, rather snidely, that Persephone “admits” to being a member of the ALP. I thought she ‘bragged’, as I do, about being a member. Did she add that she was a ‘paid-up, card-carrying member’? I doubt it. I think that was your rather childish addition. A little bit of McCarthyism, Aitch?
      Like most other reputable organisations a card is issued when dues are paid, and a lot of people carry their cards, e.g., RSL, football club, RACQ, et al, in their wallet.
      You’re a nasty little piece of work, aren’t you. You fit very nicely into the Abbott party, which used to be the Liberal party until the cult followers Howard and Abbott took it over.

    • Lol says:

      04:30pm | 10/06/11

      Meow!!... put out a saucer of milk!

    • Matt says:

      04:40pm | 10/06/11

      Being an ALP member is something to brag about? Okay then…

    • Aitch B says:

      05:00pm | 10/06/11

      @new boy

      I said that she admitted to being a paid up card carrying member in the context of her being distinct from probably the majority of ALP supporters here who aren’t.

      As for your last paragraph….. hahaha!! Yeah… right.

    • persephone says:

      05:15pm | 10/06/11

      And notice that no one on this site appears to be a paid up member of the Liberal party, although I can understand why you’d be ashamed to admit it.

      I’m proud that I have the courage of my convinctions, and am willing to put my money, time and effort where my mouth is.

      Whereas a lot (if not all) of the Tony lovers here only give him lip service (ooohhh, unfortunate image…..)

      Thanks, newbie!!

    • Aitch B says:

      06:06pm | 10/06/11

      @Persephone

      And you have every right to be proud of your convictions…. I have never said anything to the contrary - have I?

      Newbie’s inference that the term ‘paid up card carrying’ member is derogatory in some form is rubbish. In fact the inference made should be that you indeed are passionate about your convictions.

      I’ll rubbish your beloved ALP, their ideology and policies all day long if that’s what I feel like doing but I won’t poke you in the chest and laugh about your commitment. Never have…. never will.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:55pm | 10/06/11

      HaHa, proud to be associated with the ALP? Too funny! That explains the Galaxy poll result and the current news landscape? What current news landscape you ask? The one where Labor is struggling to get good news. When you have the UN, Israel, Big/Small business, Unions, working families, healthcare workers as your enemies (this is just the short list) do you really want to be associated with the toxic ALP brand? Hey pers weren’t you Rudd’s biggest fan, your support is archived and you did disappear after the backstabbing for a while. Mmmmm an ALP brainwashing conference maybe? The real nasty piece of work is Gilltard…...KRudd’s tears, cold response to the QLD floods, lies, more lies, zero policy success and of course the incompetence while collecting a paycheck…......so sad to see an ALP tragic struggling….so sad ...........

    • persephone says:

      07:00pm | 10/06/11

      Thanks, Aitch, and apologies.

      I was generalising!!

    • nossy says:

      07:08pm | 10/06/11

      @persephone - I asked that question ages ago persephone - not even TimB or marK would admit to being in the Libs !  hahahah Of course poor little MarKy applied to join Whiney Pyney but lucked out ! Good grief I bet their are heaps of Party members on this blog - from both sides !

    • Ben81 says:

      08:12pm | 10/06/11

      @ pers “and am willing to put my money, time and effort where my mouth is.”

      Jeez I feel sorry for you now, you must almost be broke if you’ve been investing in the energy alternatives the Carbon tax you support is supposed to encourage.
      You’d better hope the tax is well north of $40 a tonne if you want to see them doing any better!

    • persephone says:

      09:00pm | 10/06/11

      Ben

      don’t need to.
      Designed and built a house over 10 years ago which is passively solar - even on a day like today (heavy frost), we’ve had enough sun to make heating unnecessary.

      Of course, it is fully insulated - even the exterior walls are - and the windows are double glazed.

      Cars are on LPG, again, all our cars have been for decades.

      You don’t need to invest large amounts of money to lower your emissions.

    • nihonin says:

      07:52am | 11/06/11

      In all reality, who would really want to be a paid up, card carrying member of any political party, most people can’t afford that luxury anymore.

      But those who are, good for you for standing by your convictions, it’s makes for great entertainment on the appropriately named….The Punch, when you defend your parties.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:33pm | 11/06/11

      Dammit persephone here I am trying to be a smartarse and you come back talking about reasonable investments…

    • persephone says:

      02:57pm | 11/06/11

      Ben

      I’m sorry to steal your thunder like that.

      How about I just agree that you’re a smartarse and we leave it at that?

    • Ben81 says:

      04:36pm | 11/06/11

      I can live with that.

    • Don of Adel says:

      04:26pm | 10/06/11

      Makes me wonder when people push the rising sea levels etc.  If I remember correctly, there is something on the planet called Tectonic Plates that are moving ALL the time. In fact EVERY part of the planet is on one and over the years the land masses have slowly moved/disappeared etc.  Surely this could not be the reason some places such as Nauru are supposedly slowly sinking???, or does the Govt/Greens and their supporters hope that Australians are ignorant and have forgotten that basic fact from school days. Probably much easier to blame Global Warming, sorry Climate Change and then Tax us on it to recover some of our tax dollars that they have wasted.

    • persephone says:

      04:44pm | 11/06/11

      An interesting question.

      Continental drift can affect local climate, because (over many many thousands of years) a continent can move from one part of the earth to another, and thus change its climate (so Australia is moving north and thus getting warmer).

      But (i) it’s localised. Just because one continent moves into a warmer zone, doesn’t mean another does. It has no affect on the global average.
      (ii) it’s very very slow; what we’re seeing at the moment is rapid.

      Here’s a simple explanation of the link between climate change and plate tectonics:

      http://apollo.lsc.vsc.edu/classes/met130/notes/chapter16/plate_tech.html

      ‘Earths outer shell is composed of plates—>

      they move at a rate of about 3 cm per year

      affect of more land at higher latitudes:

      alter ocean currents and therefore heat transport

      alter global atmospheric circulation

      more glaciers over land, higher albedo, cooler temps.

      plate movement also generates more volcanic activity

      hence, when the plates are on the move, have more volcanic eruptions -> emit more CO2 into atmosphere

      this would cause global temps to rise.

      if there is little movement, volcanic activity decreases -> so CO2 concentrations are lower in the atmosphere -> avg temp decreases’

      From this site:

      http://apollo.lsc.vsc.edu/classes/met130/notes/chapter16/index.html

      (Looks like a really good little site for those who have genuine questions on climate change, past ,present and future).

      It’s there, but it doesn’t explain what’s happening globally at the moment.

      As for sea level rises:

      http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/met102/chapter_6.html

      Some interesting bits:

      ‘Over tectonic times, sea level has risen and fallen by several hundreds of meters. These rises and falls are called marine transgressions and regressions, respectively.
      These changes are small in comparison to the depth of the ocean (average depth is greater than 4000 m) but they are important in determining factors of climate change.
      Because continental margins (edges) are relatively flat, a rise in sea level of 1 m can cause sea water to move as much as 1000 m inland!’

      ‘From 80 - 100 My ago, sea level was about 200 m higher,. Much of North America and Europe were flooded.

      Since that time, sea level has dropped due to 1) plate tectonics and 2) changes in the volume of water due to climate changes.’

      ‘... sea floor spreading rates influence the volume of sea water and therefore the sea level height. Faster spread rates cause higher sea levels.

      Continental collisions influence sea levels. When continents collide, they cause a wider ocean basin which will cause a drop in sea levels.

      For example, the last major collision (still underway) is India colliding with southern Asia which began 55 My ago. This collision has increased the area of the ocean by 2,000,000 km2 which had dropped sea levels about 40 m! ‘

      ‘water stored in ice sheets influences sea level. No ice sheets existed 80 - 100 Mya so sea levels had to be higher. Today, the Antarctic ice sheet holds enough water to cause a 66 m drop in sea level and the Greenland ice sheet hold about 6 m of sea level water. ‘

      So, again, continental drift has an effect on sea levels.

      But - given that India is still moving northwards - sea levels should be falling, not rising.

      So continental drift/tectonic plate movement cannot explain either climate change or the rise in sea levels which has been observed.

      Don, given that thousands of scientists from all kinds of scientific disciplines all over the world have been studying this problem intensely for well over a decade, there are few questions that anyone can ask which they haven’t at least attempted to answer!

      Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t ask the questions, but it does mean you should assume they’ve been considered.

    • AnthonyG says:

      04:43pm | 10/06/11

      Mal until Tuvalu is 40 foot under water in 20 million years we might start worrying about Nauru ok. Now how about you earn your money by talking about something that is relevent. This isn’t meant to be a fantasy forum, well i didn’t think it was but some of the greenie and labor rubbish being spread around here is making me wonder

    • Jim says:

      05:11pm | 10/06/11

      What scaremongering garbage. This is Tuvalu syndrome, crying foul where no foul exists. I can guarantee that Nauru is more at risk from the sea floor falling due to tectonic plate movement that it is from rising sea levels. Records of the sea levels at various Pacific islands by SEAFRAME show no conclusive evidence that sea levels are rising due to climate change, they only show minor rises and falls due to El Niño and La Niña. The sea level at Nauru has been relatively constant at Nauru in the almost 20 years of monitoring at that site. Sea level rises of 1m are wildly optimistic, let alone estimates in the tens of metres needed to inundate Nauru.

    • davey street says:

      05:37pm | 10/06/11

      Love that word “could”. It just like others such as “might” and ‘If” and “maybe” and “possibly’ and “arguably” on which the entire climate change tax grab scam is based.

    • Dr B S Goh says:

      05:46pm | 10/06/11

      Hi Everyone. May I give you all some homework and make a proposal for all of you to think about during the weekend?

      Firstly please read the history of Christmas Island at say, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Island. You will find that Christmas Island was managed by the British out of Malaya and then Singapore. In 1957 when Malaya became independent Christmas Island was sold by the British Administration to Australia for two million and nine hundred pounds.

      Maybe we can now enter into business negotiations with the Singapore Government which is extremely competent and it is always looking for good business opportunities in Australia and Asia.

      But we better be a smart than all the recent deals Australia has with its Asian neighbours as we are no good in hackling over prices in negotiations.

      Let’s offer to sell Christmas Island to Singapore for say the very profitable price of a$2,900,000,000. This would represent a profit of one thousand fold on the price Australia paid for it.

      However we impose two conditions on the Singaporeans. Firstly we outsource all the processing of boatpeople to them. This means any boatpeople trying to come to Australia will be shipped to Christmas Island and we have experiences with that and so it is no problem.
      We also require that we wash our hands on such boatpeople sent to the new Christmas Island under Singapore. They then have to queue up for places under UN Refugees Body and they are no longer our responsibility.

      The second condition of the proposed sale of Christmas Island back to Singapore is that it sets up abattoirs to process our cattle for sale to Asian countries. We shall be happy if boatpeople are used as workers. Many of them are from Muslim countries and so they can be easily trained to kill cattle in the halal way.

      Of course we must not abandon any Australian citizen now on Christmas Island. Each nuclear family should be paid one million dollars to re-locate to Australia or stay put where they are. I am sure Singapore would welcome them if they chose to stay.

      If you all think I have found the perfect solution to the Government two major problems please forward this suggestion to the PM and your MP. I shall then send them a small bill for my Consultation fees.

      If the Government wants me to be a Consultant to do this Deal with the Singapore Govt I shall be happy to give up my present job and help the Australian Government. My fees will be a lot less than T Flannery and R Garnaut in the global warming business and tax venture of the Australian Government.

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      05:49pm | 10/06/11

      Is this possible that a so called refugee can sew his lips together and win an $800,000 claim.
      This is so wrong no matter which side of politics one favours.
      People work a lifetime and yet a nobody can come here and receive this.

    • Seano says:

      08:51pm | 10/06/11

      http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/01/11/1199988590128.html

      A quick google search reveals that the payout was not compensation for sewing his lips together but because he was mentally ill and left untreated.

      “The statement of claim alleged authorities ignored 15 reports from medical experts and 11 from psychiatrists describing his illness and suicidal tendencies and urged his removal from detention.”

      Basically he was seperated from his wife and child, detained and left untreated for 3 years. The government didn’t bother countering the claim. The bloke will never work again and will need life long medical attention.

      During my google search I also noticed they were leaving these facts out of the discussion over at the stormfront website.

    • bananabender says:

      06:05pm | 10/06/11

      Sea levels are only rising at 1-2mm/year. Roughly the same rate as they have been for the past 11,000 years since the last ice age ended.
      Rapid rises in sea level (just like ocean acidification) are literally impossible. However that won’t stop a good scare story.

    • persephone says:

      07:25pm | 10/06/11

      bananabender

      Why are they literally impossible?

      They’ve happened in the past:

      http://people.rses.anu.edu.au/lambeck_k/pdf/262.pdf

      ‘....a reef back stepping ca. 7500 calibrated (cal) yr B.P.has been interpreted as a rapid sea-level rise of
      6.5 m..’

      ‘All of these records indicate the same amplitude of sea-level rise, and thus imply a global expression of this event.’

      http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=sea-caves-reveal-rapid-rise-in-ancient-ocean-levels

      ‘the record suggests that sea level can rise or fall as fast as two meters a century…’

      http://www.aip.org/history/climate/floods.htm’

      ‘Cesare Emiliani at the University of Miami reported measuring deep-sea cores that showed a shockingly rapid rise of sea level — a rate of meters per decade — around 11,600 years ago. ‘

      So rapid sea level rises have occurred in the past, contrary to your statement.

      As for sea level rises:

      http://www.cmar.csiro.au/sealevel/sl_hist_few_hundred.html

      ‘Changes in local sea level estimated from sediment cores collected in salt marshes reveal an increase in the rate of sea level rise in the western and eastern Atlantic Ocean during the 19th century and early 20th century, ‘

      ‘We have used a combination of historical tide-gauge data and satellite-altimeter data to estimate global averaged sea level change from 1880 to 2009. During this period, global-averaged sea level rose about 21 cm, with an average rate of rise of about 1.6 mm/yr over the 20th Century. The sea level record indicates a statistically significant increase in the rate of rise between 1880 to 2009.’

      Lots of nice graphs, which show a sharp rise in sea levels over the last century.

      As for ocean acidification, again, not only can it increase rapidly, it has increased rapidly.

      http://ioc3.unesco.org/oanet/FAQresearch.html

      ‘From such studies, we have learned that the ocean has experienced large perturbations in the past that may have included ocean acidification events….’

      http://www.interacademies.net/File.aspx?id=9075

      ‘The rapid increase in CO2 emissions since the industrial revolution has increased the acidity of the world’s oceans..;

      ‘Ocean acidification is irreversible on timescales of at least tens of thousands of years….’

      But I’m sure you know better than all those silly scientists, who have spent years studying these issues.

    • Matt says:

      07:43pm | 10/06/11

      “persephone says:

      07:25pm | 10/06/11

      bananabender

      Why are they literally impossible?

      They’ve happened in the past:

      http://people.rses.anu.edu.au/lambeck_k/pdf/262.pdf

      ‘....a reef back stepping ca. 7500 calibrated (cal) yr B.P.has been interpreted as a rapid sea-level rise of
      6.5 m..’”

      Wow! We must have been generating some serious CO2 back then! Let me guess, a Cabon Tax fixed the problem?

    • Don of Adel says:

      07:57pm | 10/06/11

      Great info persephone.  But it puts paid to the claims that man made Climate Change is causing the current sea levels to rise. It has been happening for thousands of years before man could have caused it.

    • persephone says:

      09:04pm | 10/06/11

      I don’t know anyone who is saying that climates haven’t changed in the past.

      As I’ve said before, rapid climate change - such as we’re experiencing now - usually have obvious, in your face, causes.

      The lack of these in our case is what led scientists to develop the AGW theory - nothing else fitted the facts.

      Indeed, as all the articles I’ve linked to say, the major reason these events are being studied is to provide us with some insight into the possible impacts of climate change.

      Good try, fellas, but no cigar.

    • Don of Adel says:

      08:18am | 11/06/11

      Thanks for the responce persephone.  I see your point, however Gillard, Brown,Combet and Garnaut ARE trying to say it is humans who have caused it here and now. They do not seem to acknowledge information such as you have presented here. Whenever info such as yours is presented, they brush it aside. Nearly every person I have spoken to in regards to this all can not work out why info like that is ignored by the people who should know better.

    • Matt says:

      08:43am | 11/06/11

      So persephone, they don’t know what caused it back then? Is that what you’re saying? Back when there was no industrialisation and AGW wasn’t available as a convenient answer?

    • persephone says:

      10:06am | 11/06/11

      Matt

      I despair of your education sometimes, honestly I do. Your comprehensions skills are woeful

      I fervently hope you went to a private school, although your spelling’s a bit too good for that.

      1. There has been rapid climate change in the past.

      2. The reason for rapid climate change in these events is usually fairly obvious e.g. meteorite strike, intense sun activity, intense volcanic activity.

      3. We are undergoing rapid climate change.

      4. None of those big obvious things are the cause.

      5. Therefore there must be another cause.

      6. Scientists have identified AGW as the cause, and this is increasingly confirmed by events.

      And you cant have it both ways. The scientists who have identiifed climate change events in the past and explained them are exactly the same scientists who have identified climate change as happening now and explained it.

      So if you don’t believe what they’re saying now, to be consistent you must have the same doubts about what they’re saying about past events - you can’t use one against the other, you either accept the science or you don’t.

      It’s obvious from all of the articles I’ve linked to that the scientists writing them are convinced the AGW is happening. As they’re the ones who have examined these past events in detail, if these past events cast any doubt on climate change they’d be the first to say so.

      Let’s face it, a scientist who was able to conclusively prove, to the same level of proof that currently exists for climate change, that it wasn’t happening or that it wasn’t caused by man, would immediately be right up there with Einstein, Gallileo, Darwin etc in the scientific pantheon.

      Proving something which everyone in your field believes to be true doesn’t make you stand out from the crowd.

      So that the writers of these papers still attest to a belief in AGW indicates that they don’t see anything in their data which disproves it.

    • Matt says:

      12:39pm | 11/06/11

      I despair of you actually having any friends if you conduct yourself in real life as you do on this site, persephone.

      All I hear is you making assertions that there has to be a reason or event that sparks rapid climate change (in this case, humans). You do not give any regard to the possibility of it it being cyclical. You didn’t even give an explanation of why it occurred at specific times in the past, other than vaguely listing random meteors, solar activity and volcanoes.

      http://www.columbia.edu/cu/pr/95/18779.html

      http://notrickszone.com/2011/01/22/signs-of-strengthening-global-cooling/

      But then, you will ignore anything that doesn’t fit your mantra.

      The scientists also said there would be 50 million climate change refugees by 2010. Where are they, persephone?

      I’m all for cleaning up the environment, but if the world was truly in as much trouble as what the experts say it is, every resource possible would be diverted towards reducing the threat. Not just by implementing a carbon tax. I’m sure the billions of dollars earmarked for the NBN could even be reallocated to address such a serious problem? Or defense spending? Or pretty much anything else that is not vital for human life.

      When that happens, I’ll believe what the politicians are telling me. When celebrities stop buying beachfront property, I might give more credence to their messages. But anything else is mere hypocrisy at the moment.

      Finally, if you think that scientists know everything, and the earth’s climate is mapped out to be read like a schematic, that all the computer-generated models are 100% accurate and there aren’t things beyond our understanding that may be at play, then it may as well be a religion for you, rather than science.

    • Toolateforsome says:

      01:22pm | 11/06/11

      Pers
      The denial is strong in this one calling himself Matt
      best he be left alone to wallow in his ignorance.

    • persephone says:

      03:02pm | 11/06/11

      Matt

      No, I don’t know. The scientists seem to have a fair idea, though, and you can google as well as i can.

      sorry, unlike you, I don’t have the arrogance to believe I know everything, so I rely on the experts.

      You can go with tea leaf readers or whatever, but it’s a doubtful way of planning for the future.

      And I’ve got lots of friends, so there!! (sticks out tongue and tosses hair before flouncing away…)

    • Matt says:

      06:03pm | 11/06/11

      Good to see you ignoring the bits you cannot answer once again persephone. Good luck with that.

    • persephone says:

      07:35pm | 11/06/11

      Matt

      you must be a newcomer to this site; I have done to death the cyclical stuff.

      Unless you believe in Gaia - that is, that the earth is a sentient being - then things change for a reason, not just because ‘it’s time they did’.

      Seasons are cyclical, for example, but we know what drives their cycle.

      So ‘it’s the cycle’ isn’t a cause. It is the effect.

      Saying ‘climate change is the result of natural cycles’ simply begs the question - what causes these natural cycles?

      According to the cyclical theory, we should be entering a period of cooling; all the indicators point that way. We’re not, so something else is going on, which is contrary to the ‘natural cycle’.

      I’m not sure which questions you think I’m avoiding (you actually don’t act that many), so I’ll cover a few to make sure.

      Yes, a Department of the UN - not a science one, but admittedly one using the science to make predictions - did make a prediction about refugee numbers which turned out to be incorrect.

      So what? There are hundreds of predictions out there about the likely consequences of global warming. Some of them are bound to be wrong.

      Government departments do this all the time - predict how many people will quit smoking each year, predict how many will die in car accidents, etc etc. We don’t dismiss what their main message is if they get the figure wrong, because we accept that every prediction is a ‘best case scenario’ - as good as one can get it, but without a time machine, sure to be imperfect.

      We don’t then deny that people will give up smoking, or die in car accidents. We understand that the risk is still real.

      You do the typical denier thing of leaping straight to the extreme case - if climate change is so awful, then we should be devoting every single spare cent and all efforts to avert it.

      That’s a typical tactic, and it doesn’t hold water.

      Again, we know people are going to die - quite a lot of them - in car accidents. We don’t run around like chooks with their heads off every time a family member gets into a car (although, given the odds, we probably should).

      We do what is reasonable to mitigate the risks. We accept that driving cars has some downsides and we take reasonable precautions. We adapt to and mitigate the risk.

      The same with climate change. If we do nothing, there are nasty consequences, so we do something. But we don’t have to go to extremes.

      The proposed action on carbon is scarcely that, yet you carry on as if we should go further. We may, but not to the extrent you’re suggesting.

      You’re exaggerating the extent of the risk, and the extent of the action needed to counter it.

    • Matt says:

      11:08am | 12/06/11

      {part 2}

            “You do the typical denier thing of leaping straight to the extreme case - if climate change is so awful, then we should be devoting every single spare cent and all efforts to avert it.”

      The believers are the ones predicting doom and desolation, not me.

            “That’s a typical tactic, and it doesn’t hold water.”

      And yet it is fine for you to hold up extreme examples and findings which say that if we do not act within the next decade, the planet is doomed in order to justify a tax on carbon. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I am not the one blaming climate change for droughts, bushfires and floods. You can thank the Left for that.

            “Again, we know people are going to die - quite a lot of them - in car accidents. We don’t run around like chooks with their heads off every time a family member gets into a car (although, given the odds, we probably should).”

      The number of fatalities per 10,000 vehicles on the road have dropped significantly over the years. In 2008, 1,464 people died in motor vehicle accidents. Is that quite a lot? Should we run around like chooks with our heads cut off over a 6.9/100,000 chance of dying in a given year by driving? Get real, persephone. Your hyperbole is the very problem with current climate change debates.
      http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2009/pdf/rsr_04.pdf

            “We do what is reasonable to mitigate the risks. We accept that driving cars has some downsides and we take reasonable precautions. We adapt to and mitigate the risk.”

      Fair enough. Although, as shown, the risk is quite miniscule. And we are not spending around $11 billion per year on it.

            “The same with climate change. If we do nothing, there are nasty consequences, so we do something. But we don’t have to go to extremes.”

      This is where your analogy falls down. The projections are talking about millions being affected by climate change rather than thousands, from increased disease and scarce water supplies. Also, the scientists are suggesting we should go to extremes. Labor isn’t though, so you brush over this part to align yourself with a $20 - 25 carbon tax.
      http://www.climatecodered.net/

      If that isn’t alarmist, I don’t know what is.

            “The proposed action on carbon is scarcely that, yet you carry on as if we should go further. We may, but not to the extrent[sic] you’re suggesting.

            You’re exaggerating the extent of the risk, and the extent of the action needed to counter it.”

      Again, incorrect. The carbon tax will do bugger all. If the government was serious, then they would invest heavily in non-carbon base power generation (i.e. nuclear), and Copenhagen wouldn’t have been such a failure. You talk about efficient markets, and in the same breath talk about how the lower income earners should/will be reimbursed. That is not market forces at work. That is the government distorting what may otherwise be an efficient market mechanism.

      I will even say this now: if there were no compensation, and the revenue raised was used to reinvest in nuclear energy (for example, through tax incentives and other stimulus measures to encourage private enterprises to invest in these areas), then I wouldn’t have as big a problem with the carbon tax. But as it is, it will not change anything given the current proposal. Certainly not in the next decade, at any rate. It certainly looks more like a wealth redistribution model to me than anything else.

    • persephone says:

      01:58pm | 12/06/11

      Matt

      there are extremists on both sides - and it’s quite common for a ‘denier’ to leap straight over the middle ground and turn into a ‘OMG the sky is falling’ type.

      So on one extreme we have those who believe in climate change and that, without action (or even with it), we’re doomed to famine and pestilence.

      And on the other extreme we have people who believe it’s all a wild eyed conspiracy dreamt up by scientists and economists (a bit like the Jewish world domination one).

      As always, there’s a middle ground between these two extremes where rational people should be sitting - the climate is chaning, it’s the result of man’s actions, and we should be taking responsible measures to do what we can to prevent it becoming unmanageable.

      The scientists tell us that we can expect more extreme and intense weather events. They’ve been predicting this for well over a decade, and lo and behold, we’re experienceing more extreme and intense weather events.

      We can never say with any certainty that ‘this fire wouldn’t have happened without global warming’ (we can’t say the opposite, either), but simply that ‘this is the kind of event we can expect to happen under global warming’.

      To demand a definitive statement either way is to ask the impossible, because there’s no way of proving that the fire would or would not have occurred, or would or would not have been as extreme.

      And, with most issues we confront that have to do with predicting future outcomes, we don’t demand that kind of proof. We accept what the experts tell us about the likelihood of an event (‘wearing your seatbelt reduces your risk of death by X’) and, if the likelihood is significant, we act (it is perfectly possible that I could go all my life without wearing my seatbelt and never be involved in an accident where it saves my life. The calculated risk, however, suggests I would be foolish to trust my luck).

      If the level of risk doesn’t justify the cost of action, in most cases we don’t act (so wearing helmets whilst driving would definitely save lives; it won’t save enough for governments to go to the bother of legislating for this).

      In this case, scientists tell us that we need to take a certain amount of action in a certain time. This action needs to be global.

      So we’re at the starting point, where what each country is doing as part of their global contribution is still being thrashed out. We can expect that, as actions are committed to, and the impacts make themselves felt, that countries will feel more comfortable about making further commitments.

      On the other side of the coin, economists are telling us that taking action in the short term is cheaper than leaving it until later.

      Neither group is suggesting extreme action, although some people take what they’re saying to say that that’s necessary.

      I would expect that - in a decade or so - we will have a much stronger commitment to cutting emissions than we have now. I don’t expect that it will dramatically alter the way we live - we will do some things differently, but we would end up doing some things differently even if we didn’t act on climate change, as part of the natural course of things.

      It’s not hypocritical to buy a beachfront property and to believe in climate change, if you also believe that we’re capable of acting to prevent extreme climate change from happening.

    • Matt says:

      05:20pm | 12/06/11

      ”  persephone says:
        01:58pm | 12/06/11
        Matt

        there are extremists on both sides - and it’s quite common for a ‘denier’ to leap straight over the middle ground and turn into a ‘OMG the sky is falling’ type.”

      Such as you? You were suggesting earlier in the thread that rapid sea level rises of 6.5 m are possible, but are now arguing that you are a moderate? Malcolm Farr suggests Nauru will be under water in 20 - 30 years, but not a peep out of you?

      Do try and be a little more consistant.

      Besides, I thought climate change was the greatest moral challenge of our time? You may want to write a letter to Kevin telling him he is an extremist.

      ”  So on one extreme we have those who believe in climate change and that, without action (or even with it), we’re doomed to famine and pestilence.

        And on the other extreme we have people who believe it’s all a wild eyed conspiracy dreamt up by scientists and economists (a bit like the Jewish world domination one).

        As always, there’s a middle ground between these two extremes where rational people should be sitting - the climate is chaning, it’s the result of man’s actions, and we should be taking responsible measures to do what we can to prevent it becoming unmanageable.”

      And then there is the position that the climate is changing, it is minimally affected by mankind, it is naturally occurring, but that we should nonetheless take care of the planet. Look at how EXTREME I am!

      ”  The scientists tell us that we can expect more extreme and intense weather events. They’ve been predicting this for well over a decade, and lo and behold, we’re experienceing more extreme and intense weather events.

        We can never say with any certainty that ‘this fire wouldn’t have happened without global warming’ (we can’t say the opposite, either), but simply that ‘this is the kind of event we can expect to happen under global warming’.”

      And yet, the high priests of AGW do this all the time. Case in point, Bob Brown. Care to point out where the weather patterns are more extreme than, say within the last 200 - 500 years?

      ”  To demand a definitive statement either way is to ask the impossible, because there’s no way of proving that the fire would or would not have occurred, or would or would not have been as extreme.”

      Then don’t try and link these events to your cause, if there is no definitive proof.

    • Matt says:

      05:20pm | 12/06/11

      {part 2}

      ”  And, with most issues we confront that have to do with predicting future outcomes, we don’t demand that kind of proof. We accept what the experts tell us about the likelihood of an event (‘wearing your seatbelt reduces your risk of death by X’) and, if the likelihood is significant, we act (it is perfectly possible that I could go all my life without wearing my seatbelt and never be involved in an accident where it saves my life. The calculated risk, however, suggests I would be foolish to trust my luck).”

      We demand quite a bit of proof when talking about $11 billion in additional taxes a year!!

      ”  If the level of risk doesn’t justify the cost of action, in most cases we don’t act (so wearing helmets whilst driving would definitely save lives; it won’t save enough for governments to go to the bother of legislating for this).

        In this case, scientists tell us that we need to take a certain amount of action in a certain time. This action needs to be global.”

      Which it isn’t. Remember Copenhagen? Yeah, it was a complete failure. Additionally, there is very little point in Australia acting before China, the US, and other major poluting countries do anything substantial. To say otherwise is rediculous. And to justify a $25 carbon tax because india has a $2 carbon tax is even more moronic.

      ”  So we’re at the starting point, where what each country is doing as part of their global contribution is still being thrashed out. We can expect that, as actions are committed to, and the impacts make themselves felt, that countries will feel more comfortable about making further commitments.”

      Then thrash it out, by all means. But there is NO point acting until there is a global solution in place.

      ”  On the other side of the coin, economists are telling us that taking action in the short term is cheaper than leaving it until later.”

      Because they want a new commodities market to play with. Also, remind me again how well the economists did predicting the GFC?

      ”  Neither group is suggesting extreme action, although some people take what they’re saying to say that that’s necessary.”

      I think you’ll find they are. This is the “Critical Decade”, after all.

      ”  I would expect that - in a decade or so - we will have a much stronger commitment to cutting emissions than we have now. I don’t expect that it will dramatically alter the way we live - we will do some things differently, but we would end up doing some things differently even if we didn’t act on climate change, as part of the natural course of things.”

      We would be doing things differently even if we didn’t act on climate change? You’re saying in a decade our lives would be irrovocibly changed by climate change, and yet I am leaping straight over the middle ground and turning this into a ‘OMG the sky is falling’ argument? Consistancy, persephone. Look it up in the dictionary.

      ”  It’s not hypocritical to buy a beachfront property and to believe in climate change, if you also believe that we’re capable of acting to prevent extreme climate change from happening.”

      Not if Nauru is under water in 20 -30 years, and the seas rise by 6.5 m (as you implied). But I’m sure you know better than all those silly scientists, who have spent years studying these issues.

    • jg says:

      07:32pm | 10/06/11

      Nauru? Under water?

      Give me a break, that has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever read. Has anyone here actually been to nauru? If they had they’d known that it’s not going under water at any time soon.

    • Larisa says:

      08:13pm | 10/06/11

      I can’t believe people can possibly stand for current labor party, unless it is mental institution on line. I hate when government treats people like fools, but I suppose it is OK for some individuals.

    • Don of Adel says:

      09:08pm | 10/06/11

      I still find it amusing that one of Labor’s ambassadors for pushing the Carbon Tax/Climate Change issue (Care Blanchett) has purchased land on the ocean front where it would supposedly be at the mercy of rising sea levels, yet we are meant to ignore this ? Surely if rising sea levels were a threat, she would not have purchased beach front property where her children may be at risk? Surely the author of this story does not expect us to ignore information like that?

    • steve says:

      10:11pm | 10/06/11

      we you disappear if a comet lands in your back yard? you people making up this bullshit piss me off…

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      12:55am | 11/06/11

      Does it matter to the haters that all of it is illegal?  Once refugees arrive here they are our responsiblity and we have an obligation under the law to help them and not abuse their human rights.

      I know the dozens of case laws that have been passed to show we cannot kick people to the kerb just because it might be easy for moron politicians.

      If that dingbat Gillard had a clue she would simply have approved an increase in humanitarian visas without trying on some people trading.

      And the UNHCR did not have over sight of Nauru.  They reluctantly assessed the first couple of hundred claims and then left.

      IOM are mercenary human traders paid for by governments to get rid of unwanted humans.

      And for the record, the cops are inciting riots and there was one other case of leprosy - a little boy. alone and abandoned without medical care. He was found under a bridge in Queensland.

      Background:

      ABASSI Abdullah (WMA 130) 12-year-old Afghani/ male child arrived travelling alone (Unaccompanied Minor) was with the group of detainees from the boat, Virginia, which had landed on Ashmore Islands on the 30th December 2000. Abdullah arrived at the Woomera IRPC on 4th January 01

      Narrative:

      The Health Services Manager, was notified today (18.05.01), by Doctor Rob Givney of the South Australian Communicable diseases, that Abdullah ABASSI has been diagnosed with Hansens disease Abdullah was discharged from this centre on the 13th February 01 as an unaccompanied minor. 


      Actions/Recommendations:
      No risk to staff no follow-ups required (medical)
      Medical will need to follow up all contacts, the remaining UAMs still at this centre who had contact with Abdullah while he was at this centre, for patches.
      Health Services Manager to visit the SA department, Provide information to Doctor Givney and to ensure all contacts are seen by a Doctor.


      DIMA Business Manager
      Centre Manager notified
      Detention Manager notified

      So he had leprosy and no-one cared for nearly 5 months.

      This is a disgusting country with disgusting media and pollies feeding our disgustingness.

    • nihonin says:

      07:59am | 11/06/11

      @Marilyn Shepherd ‘This is a disgusting country with disgusting media and pollies feeding our disgustingness’.  So what’s keeping you here?  Free handouts and the benefits that go with it, perhaps?

    • marley says:

      08:29am | 11/06/11

      I’m going to ignore the rest of your rant, Marilyn, but your statement that “IOM are mercenary human traders paid for by governments to get rid of unwanted humans” is libellous. 

      For your information, IOM is a highly respected agency which has done magnificent work to stop the trafficking of women and children for the sex trade, and to rehabilitate those rescued from the trade.  It has long been involved with the governments of Canada, Australia and the US in organizing transportation and other services for refugees accepted out of the camps.  If you consider helping out the victims of white slavery, and assisting refugees to get to resettlement countries, to involve getting rid of unwanted humans, then all I can say is that your values are as bad as your language.

    • jf says:

      09:40am | 11/06/11

      Marilyn Shepherd says:12:55am | 11/06/11


      So, what is your solution Marilyn? You are pretty good at hysterical melodramatics: what about some ideas.

      What is the right solution? Are you proposing that we say to the rest of the world “Listen, we do have procedures and rules in relation to refugees like any responsible country. However, this only applies if you come on commercial plane or ship. If you are prepared to take a long, dangerous journey then you may enter, no questions asked.”

      Or, are you suggesting that we abandon any border protection. That we don’t check if refugees are former members of corrupt or fundamentalist regimes, that we don’t check to stop the introduction of diseases that were eradicated from this country decades ago, that we have no quotas so that this country introduces people at an economically unsustainable rate.

      Don’t get me wrong: I agree that Malaysia is the wrong country to send refugees to but on the other side we are taking in 4,000. Are you saying we should keep the 800 and reject the 4,000? That is 3,200 refugees that will remain in refugee camps.

      What have you got except for pompous indignation and fatuous, rambling criticism?

    • MPJ says:

      12:01pm | 11/06/11

      @ Marilyn “This is a disgusting country with disgusting media and pollies feeding our disgustingness.”

      Well if it is clearly so disgusting why don’t you just shove off then.

      Actually M. I should withdraw that comment. My Mum always told me it is rude and cruel to mock the mentally infirm.

    • Rob G says:

      04:41am | 11/06/11

      Have you ever been to Nauru Malcolm?????? Even with all the super phosphate taken out over 100 years, there is still a lot of island left. It will not go under water unless Flannery’s predictions come true. Let me see….......... Nope not one of his wild alarmist theories have come true yet!  Infact…... coldest weather in a century in Brisbane yesterday and the Alps are covered with snow and the Murray is in flood!

      How about reporting the facts ........ not theoretical modelling or alarmist predictions.

    • Steve Smith says:

      04:59am | 11/06/11

      Maybe with a bit of luck they will keep the extreme right wing Abbott and Morrison on Naru in detention

    • Brian Taylor says:

      06:03am | 11/06/11

      more crap about climate change , when will you lot grow up, yes I’d like to see cleaner rivers and stop dumpping stuff into our seas and air, but to actually have the balls to say that Islands around the world sinking into the sea, (oh, I mustn’t forget about our coastline going under water too)
      you really do take the piss out of people don’t you and the funny thing is, half of the people do believe you (wankers)
      whatever happened to planting trees to take care of CO2, taking people and companies to court for dumping rubbish and other waste and hitting them so hard they stop doing it.
      yes we can and must do something to clean up the earth, but to claim that Islands are sinking because of what we do is total crap

    • Brian Taylor says:

      06:47am | 11/06/11

      I have to laugh when I read people posting the following “set sail in leaky boats”
      what a load of crap the only reason some boats sank is because the crew scruttled the boats forcing navy ships to pick up the people (not a real good speller as you can tell lol)
      most of the boats that arrive here are rusty yes but they know that the boats will not be returned by the Govt so why send good boats.

    • persephone says:

      03:09pm | 11/06/11

      Oh, of course; that’s what happened off Christmas Island last December!

    • The Redman says:

      09:13am | 11/06/11

      Where are the howls of outrage of this clearly partisan use of taxpayers money? How much is it costing? Is the Liberal Party bearing the costs? I doubt it. Why is the media not demanding an explanation why public money is being used to fund what is clearly a politically motivated visit which has nothing whatsoever to do with representing this country in a foreign nation?

      As to the issue itself. Simply put, I do not support mandatory detention, and therefore I do not support Government policy. Naturally, I most certainly don’t support the position of the Coalition.

    • Don of Adel says:

      09:44am | 11/06/11

      The Redman - it has been clearly stated in other sections of the media that the Lib party did in fact charter the plane with no cost to the public. Julia   was asked if an aircraft could be made available, however the request was denied .

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      10:24am | 11/06/11

      TAs trip is being paid for by the Libs not the taxpayer.

    • lordy says:

      03:45pm | 11/06/11

      Kurisu - does that mean the Liberal party is a privately run organisation? If so, I demand to know who these faceless sponsors are and why would they try to influence the decision making process?

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      05:38pm | 11/06/11

      Lordy - it’s a fairly simple answer to your tanty, ask the Liberal Party not me.

      Konbanwa baka

    • nossy says:

      09:59am | 11/06/11

      Any chance of “Toxic Tony” staying on Nauru Malcolm and doing Australia a big favour ? Honestly you would think the way he goes on millions of Asylum Seekers arrive by boat but in actual fact most arrive by plane. Abbott is as lightweight a politician as I have ever seen and the sooner he is replaced the better. Imagine if you will Australia in the hands of Abbott, Morrison and the crimson faced inumerate Barnaby Joyce - god help us Malcolm !

    • marley says:

      11:05am | 11/06/11

      Actually, Nossy, the number of boat and air arrivals these days is pretty much 50/50.  And Tony isn’t the only one demonizing boat arrivals - the ALP is doing a magnificent job of that as well.  Lightweights all around.

    • nossy says:

      12:03pm | 11/06/11

      @marley - an inteligent observation there marley - I agree !

    • bikinis on top says:

      04:22pm | 11/06/11

      Abbottobad Tony Abbott can either live in the phosphate island of Nauru or in the bad guy compound of Abbottobad but never return to Australia if he has any real substance.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      06:15pm | 11/06/11

      http://www.judimoylan.com.au/LatestNews/Speeches/tabid/71/ArticleType/ArticleView/ArticleID/859/Default.aspx

      A few facts for the haters.

      As for IOM, they are mercenary people traders started by a former FBI agent and they are paid by governments to deport and trade human beings.

      They are not a legitimate organisation anywhere, they are mercenaries whom we have paid hundreds of millions to jail refugees for us all over Asia.

      They have no accountability to anyone and can do what ever they want with people including denying them decent medical care and housing, they break their own rules for Australia and we are their biggest client in this fraud.

      We do not get to treat human beings in this way.

      Read the words of Judi Moylan and see for yourselves instead of bitching and moaning about your pathetic lives.

    • marley says:

      09:21am | 12/06/11

      Marilyn, I hope you’ve got a good lawyer, because you’re setting yourself up for a law suit.

      IOM is a Non-Governmental organization which has existed, in one form or another, since just after WWII.  It was initially set up to assist persons displaced by the war to find new homes, mainly in the Americas. It was heavily involved in the resettlement of over 180,000 Hungarian refugees after the 1956 revolution there; it organized the movement of 40,000 Czechs who fled the Soviet invasion there in 1968;  organized the resettlement of Ugandan Asians escaping from Idi Amin in the early 1970s;  worked with the UNHCR and receiving states on the resettlement of over 1 million Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians in the 70s and 80s;  worked on the evacuation of Yugoslavs, Bosnians and Kosovars during the assorted wars there, and on their subsequent return home;  assisted with the repatriation of Rwandans, the evacuation of Chechyns and with earthquake and tsunami relief.  It works closely with a number of receiving countries in the processing and movement of refugees out of camps in Asia and Africa.

      Oh, and it’s very active in developing systems and programs to fight the trafficking of women and children for forced labour and the sex trade. It operates programs to rescue such women in Eastern Europe, rehabilitate them and get them back home.
      It is also involved in “capacity building” – training countries on things like border management.

      Contrary to your very limited understanding, it is accountable to its 132 members (kind of like the UN, actually).  And those members include states I don’t really associate with paying to “deport and trade human beings” - you know, states like Canada, Sweden, the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Switzerland etc etc.  Unless, of course, you equate the resettlement of refugees with trading in human beings.  Oh, and unlike your beloved people smugglers, when IOM transports people to their new homes, it does it on major airlines, not in leaky boats.

      In other words, Marilyn dear, the IOM has more legitimacy, and has done more for refugees and people in need in the last week than you could ever dream of achieving in a lifetime.

    • Terry says:

      07:37pm | 11/06/11

      I feel really sorry for the genuine political refugees. The problem for them is that there are heaps of economic refugees trying to jump the line.  Unfortunatley they get caught up in this. In the old days you “escaped” to the nearest country like Tamils in Shri Lanka to Tamil Nardu in India (60 miles across the strait). Same language, religion, culture.But no. Now you select a country even if on the other side of the world.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      04:12am | 12/06/11

      There is no such thing as an economic refugee.

      A refugee is a person outside their own country with a well founded fear of persecution.  It’s utterly specific.

      Do give it a rest.

      There are certainly economic migrants, we make them have over $250,000 before they can come here, but migrants can go home if they are bored.

      Refugees cannot.

    • marley says:

      10:24am | 12/06/11

      @Marilyn - true, there’s no such thing as an economic “refugee” though there certainly are economic migrants, legal and illegal (but I doubt there’s a financial requirement of $250,000 for every skilled worker accepted by Australia).  For that matter, there’s no such thing as a climate change “refugee” either.

    • The Liberal Loafer says:

      08:42pm | 11/06/11

      Evil Tory should be in charge of the Tories!
      The other Tory has gone missing in action!

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      04:15am | 12/06/11

      RRT appeals – all countries Jan to March

      China,  Malaysia ,,Philipinnes ,,Lebanon , Bahrain,  Sri Lanka,  Sudan , Nigeria , Algeria,  New Zealand
      Uganda ,India ,Turkey,  Rwanda ,Pakistan,  Jordan ,Zimbabwe ,Indonesia ,Fiji ,Somalia ,Burma, Latvia , Korea , Colombia ,Mongolia,  Iran,  Bangladesh ,Macedonia , Egypt ,Tonga , Afghanistan, ,
      Cameroon , Nepal,  Tunisia ,Albania , Guinea , Serbia,  Thailand ,Congo , Vietnam, Palestine ,Bangladesh , Sierra Leone, ,Uzbekistan, ,Vanuatu


      People apply from all these countries and we don’t claim they had to apply somewhere else.

      The Tamils of Sri Lanka do not get refugee protection in India.

      That is such old news it has whiskers.

    • maryellen says:

      01:11pm | 12/06/11

      Oh why do you people hate him so much -  is he telling bigger lies than Gillard?

    • louise says:

      01:14pm | 12/06/11

      What a good cartoon -  doesn’t Julia look gorgeous

 

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