A very messy Christmas

Robert S McCormick says:

06:52am | 19/12/11

...and who are the thugs & scum who send our young men & women to possibly die fighting an almost invisible enemy in a country most Australians would not even lnow where it is?
The Politicians.
If these Undeclared Wars are so damned important to Australia’s National Security let the politicians put on the uniform & go fight the ” Undeclared Wars” they are responsible for!

Tony of Poorakistan says:

10:40am | 19/12/11

Quite right, Robert. We should simply have nuked the place from orbit.

Big John says:

10:27am | 18/12/11

Quite. Yes, I am not sure how to react to an inventory of all the crappy things that happen to people at Xmas… Should those of us who find joy at Xmas be a little less happy this year?

the_pseudonym says:

11:08am | 18/12/11

Obviously not Chris_D, poor little lefties don’t like anything that just may distract them from the ‘manufactured’ evils of the world.  They won’t be happy or have anything positive or joyous to celebrate, till we’re all as miserable as them.

The_indicator says:

12:15pm | 18/12/11

pseudo
You sound like a happy chappy!

Right wing fringe dweller right?

holden says:

12:51pm | 18/12/11

@ the pseudynom, in his crass stupidity says that Howard’s War, and the horrors that have resulted from that criminal act, are a figment of the “leftie’s” imagination. What a classic Liberalite reply.
One day he will realise, (probably won’t), that Xmas is the most obvious ‘manufactured evil’ of all. Like the unnecessary deaths of our finest it is based on a lie. Xmas, and the supposed basis for xmas were the inventions of power hungry tyrants who didn’t care what lies were told as long as that lie gave them more power.
Christians, and anyone else who failed to follow the dictates of the tyrant, were damned to eternal hell. We, on the other hand were damned by our particular power hungry tyrant to a life of terror if we didn’t accept his threat of the existence of WMDs. Not much difference really, is there?
I have no complaint about my personal position. I have a thought for the starving children of the world, and Aids sufferers, and all who have lost a loved one, and the empty chair at the hero’s xmas-dinner table, but you would look on these as “manufactured evils” wouldn’t you, pseudonym.
I bet you don’t have a tree set up in the lounge, do you. No? That’s because, in your house, everything revolves around you.
I hope you, and Howard, and Abbott, have a conscience clear, and contented, safe festive season.
Oh yes. Big John too, who thinks orphans and widows being honored is a “crappy thing”.

marley says:

10:04am | 18/12/11

Very simplistic take on things.  Afghanistan has always been about tribal rivalries, and it still is. The war isn’t about “patriotism” at all, because Afghans don’t have much of a sense of nationhood.  Their loyalty is first to clan, then to tribe and to warlord, and seldom to “nation.”

The Taliban certainly aren’t in the business of defending their nation, they’re in the business of taking it over, at the expense of the smaller tribal groups.  And while they are certainly in the business of defending their version of Islam, they’re also in the business of destroying the Shia version. 

So, for some non-Pashtuns, our forces will be seen as protectors and even liberators of their tribal and village interests, while for Pashtuns we are invaders and oppressors. 

Yes, war is an evil cancer.  As you say, on both sides.  And I’m inclined to think that our side is more aware of the humanity of the opposition, than their side is.

John the Zombie says:

12:08pm | 18/12/11

So TChong you call the Taliban “patriots” defending their homes. Well sorry to bust your bubble but the Taliban they were invaders into Afghanistan. Yes, the group you call “patriots” came from Pakistan with Pakistan backing to stop Afghanistan from forging a relationship with India.  Most the attacks that are done in ghan are from overseas AQ and Taliban members. The come from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Oman and many other countries. At the moment the largest number of attacks in Afghanistan are been carried out by people from Pakistan not Afghani themselves. Pakistan funds and backs all terrorist groups in Afghanistan and India and is happy to kill and murder as many people as they can and people like you fall for the line that they are Afghanis fighting the invaders. Most Afghanis care about food, work and their children.

Is it the US and allies that are bombing Shite and Sunni prayers and mosques? No. Maybe you also look at the internal wars in these countries have between warlords and Shite and Sunni and the fact they themselves have been killing each other hundreds of years.

Before commenting on the fact that Afghanistan was peaceful and had law and order just look at how that law and order was done. It was done at the barrel of the gun. Don’t forget under the Taliban music was banned, girls could not go to school, movies were banned and many other things that you take for granted were banned as well.

Many of those who are Afghani and carry out attacks are usually told that their families will be taken care off with promises of large amounts of money which is above the amount they would have received working a life time in the jobs they do and others are just unemployed. Perfect example is did you know that Suddam Hussein was paying families of suicide bombers in Palestine about $5,000US for their martyrdom.

Also do not forget why we are there. On September the 11th, 2001 a group of terrorist trained from Afghanistan on instructions by Osama Bin Laden a man given sanctuary in Afghanistan by the Pakistan Taliban carried out an attack that was the same to a declaration of war. Maybe you should also read the letter sent by Osama that states that unless America and all non-muslim leave the holy lands and that all non-muslims convert and accept Allah as the true god and convert to Islam then the war on the west will continue. Yes these are the terms that groups like AQ and the Taliban believe in. That all non-muslims must convert and accept Islam otherwise face attacks. If you don’t believe me just YouTube the program “My brother the Islamist” and see the views of the Muslims in that show. Watch as they slap a white man and then say it was because he was drunk. Watch as they protest and burn poppies on Remembrance Day.

A great line you may want to learn.

All that’s necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.

Time for people like you TChong to stop living under a rock and see the world as it is. Just to point something out to you. Sikhs and Hindus who have lived in Afghanistan even before the Taliban and had a good relationship with them were required to wear yellow arm bands when the Taliban came into power. I wonder what other group in society were forced to do this and by whom. Also note that 5,000 Sikhs and Hindus have been forced to leave their homes by the so called people you call patriots and live in a Sikh temple as they were given a choice by your patriots to either pay $50,000US or leave their lands and if they stayed they will be killed. If you think this is untrue here is an article for you

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/south-asia/32213-sikhs-living-on-afghan-pak-frontier.html

http://www.afghanhindu.info/

Mik says:

01:22pm | 18/12/11

Afghanistan, a country which doesn’t have much respect for human rights because it lost its humanity towards its own centuries ago http://www.rawa.org/women.php
but if you know no differently, its difficult to act differently. Even if some want to act differently, their society makes it dangerous to step up.
Tragically, sometimes even good people have to act badly to survive, trapped by their cultures. No, that isn’t an excuse, but it is a fact.

Mik says:

02:15pm | 18/12/11

My understanding from those Australian troops who are in Afghanistan is that they feel that they are giving the “hidden” decent people of Afghanistan a chance to overcome their disfranchisement.

RyaN says:

10:10am | 19/12/11

@TChong: But you didn’t roll out the “oil” chestnut, oh wait!
Just like Bosnia where the christian military complex rolled in to fight leftist fascists to save the Muslims being slaughtered because they just wanted their oil right? Oh hang on!

John says:

05:40pm | 18/12/11

Whats the difference? Peer pressure, a salary, its not like the soldiers get an option to quit the forces after they have been told to ship overseas. These men, are fighting for an official manufactured view which we all know is a lie. They are over there because the australian people do not have enough political power to pull their troops back. The reality is all these decisions are in the hands of the media barons, politicians and international finance and we all know this power rules western society and the people don’t have enough strength to oppose it. This means western soldiers will continue to fight and die for the interests of the very people that rule and occupy their nations. I mean why would you want to fight for the people that oppress your people and nation?
Its like joining the Red atheist communist army, while being a christian Hungarian in the 1950’s!

Andrew says:

11:59pm | 18/12/11

So John, are you forced to join the army. If your dumb enough to join thinking you will never be shipped out to a warzone then its really isnt anyones fault but your own is it. Im not for one minute saying war is right or belittle what the soldiers do, but if you decide to enlist you have to be prepared to fight in a warzone, you have to be prepared to put your lives in the hands of powers to be that are out of your hands.

John the Zombie says:

01:34pm | 18/12/11

That is true and thats why I donate to Legacy.

the_pseudonym says:

02:06pm | 18/12/11

As do I John, we should all give to legacy.

Peter B says:

05:47pm | 18/12/11

Carol you are allowed to reply to my comment you don’t have to start a new one ! Its not hard to work out you click on REPLY.
Anyway if you can’t tell the difference between good and evilthen that is unfortunate for you. Tell the people of Iraq whether they are glad Suddam is gone they will give you the answer you are not looking for. You will also find part of the reason so many were killed is because of politics there weren’t enough troops to deal with the problems but i’m sure that would have to be explained to you too.

John the Zombie says:

06:20pm | 18/12/11

Carol are you calling the ADF paid mercenaries. Maybe you should read up on the orgins of the Taliban.

Yes Carol they do it so people like you can sit on your back sides and call them mercenaries from the saftey of your keyboard. God help if war is ever declared. I bet you, you will be the first person crying for them to protect you.

Carol says:

08:06pm | 18/12/11

Peter B,
I know how to determine “evil in the world”, what I asked is how you determine it? I note you did not answer!

John,
Yes, I called them mercenaries because that is what they are, aren’t they?

Peter B says:

05:22am | 19/12/11

Carol why don’t you go and live amongst what these people are going through then you can see it for yourself or where ever there is evil, scum and thugs in the world .  That includes corrupt Governments in the West like the present Labor disaster pretending to be a Government. Evil flourishes when good people do not stand against it. Let me guess, you think this Government is doing a great

Seanr says:

09:43am | 19/12/11

you need to look up the definition of mercenary Carol because you’re simplistic view is wrong.
I certainly didn’t join the Army for the pay, easy working conditions or public adulation. Whilst it may sound old fashioned I joined for the challenge and the opportunity to serve a larger ideal (my country).

You are right that definitions of ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are relative, I’m sure the Taliban believe they are ‘good’ and the West is ‘evil’ but Australian soldiers are not mercenaries fighting for anyone that will pay them.

old fart says:

10:24am | 19/12/11

“The modern definition considers a mercenary to be someone who takes part in an armed conflict based on the promise of material compensation rather than having a direct interest in, or a legal obligation to, the conflict itself. A non-conscript professional member of a regular army is not considered to be a mercenary although he gets monetary reward from his service.”

So, based on that the answer would be no Carol, unless off course you are grinding some political anti war axe.  Having said that I am not in favour of armed conflict of any form.  However, it does not give you the right to insult people who go there at the command of the government.  I find your attitude as offensive and distateful as those of the like minded people who protested against the Vietnam war, by targetting soldiers.  Target the people who sent them there in our name, not the troops. They are only doing the job we pay them to do.

Leto says:

01:07pm | 19/12/11

As I recall, the US said “Give us Bin Laden”, and the Taliban (the government of Afghanistan) asked to see evidence that Bin Laden was responsible. I don’t think the US gave the Taliban any response except an invasion.

Oh and Iraq? They had some sort of WMD and ties to Al Qaeda didn’t they? Oh no, they didn’t but lets just forget that inconvenient fact.

The truth is that the western worlds war on Islam in Afghanistan and Iraq killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Bet they are just super happy at being liberated.

Look at how the US and NATO are trying to bully Iran into not building nuclear weapons. I ask, which is the only nation that has used nuclear weapons on men, women and children? Twice. I’m all for freedom, just not the US brand.

Leto says:

01:15pm | 19/12/11

Oh, and let’s not forget the Media’s part in feeding everyone a bunch of lies regarding the reasons we were going to be involved. NZ were smart enough to get out of ANZUS years ago, and it hasn’t done their country any harm.

Maybe you guys should have hacked some politicians phones instead of some waste of space celebrity.

Journalism, at least on news.com.au, died a long time ago.

The Dactyl says:

01:21pm | 19/12/11

Carol - Your skewed view of the world betrays your ignorance to the world’s realities.  The sad reality is that there are some very evil people in the world. I would categorise evil as executing rape victims as whores, preventing women from learning or conducting the torture of homosexuals as some form of sick half-time entertainment at sporting venues. Do you consider the killing children as potential spies or the misinterpretation of a religious text to justify a regime based on hate, violence and fear evil enough for you?
The West’s involvement in Afghanistan is a stand for decency in deteriorating world. The spread of the Taliban is not something that can be left unchecked.  In fact, I believe the West should have made more stands for what is right as part of ‘The New World Order’ after the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe (Rwanda, Burma, etc).
Carol, suggest you actually conduct some basic reading and research before you make such a ridiculous comment. You could have even looked up the definition of mercenary before you made a fool of yourself.
You are right about one thing Carol, the men and women of the ADF do want to be there, but they are not mercenaries. They are simply made of sterner stuff than you.  However, if you still believe that those who defend your rights and interests in Australia are mercenaries devoid of any honour, feel free to leave.  Maybe you could hold your head up high in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, or a Taliban controlled village in Afghanistan, but don’t cry out when they want to chop it off.

Carol says:

01:58pm | 19/12/11

Old Fart,
Said “They are only doing the job we pay them to do”.
I rest my case they are mercenaries.

Richard says:

09:41pm | 19/12/11

Carol,
When you are at work (assuming you do) and you get told to do something, if you refuse, there are consequences, but the worst that’s going to happen is that you are going to get fired. When a soldier gets told to deploy to Afghanistan, whether they are being paid for it or not, if they refuse they can be jailed.

Doesn’t sound like a mercenary to me!

Paul M says:

09:44pm | 19/12/11

Yeees, those benighted heather need to be told that they will spend a lost eternity burning in hell if they don’t accept Jesus into their hearts.

(edit: infidels, not heathen. The heathen are hindus and whatnot. Sorry.)