Earlier this month, I published an opinion piece on The Punch. It talked about Abdul, a refugee from Afghanistan, who I met on Christmas Island.

Illustration: John Tiedemann, Daily Telegraph.

There were 159 comments on my piece. Julia Gillard encouraged people to have an open, frank debate. I reckon an open, frank debate means calling bigotry when you see it, and some of the comments made on my blog, like this one:

…every leaking fishing boat [is] loaded with people who are unprocessed on issues like health, criminal element, terrorist infiltration or the blatant open fact of illegal entry…

....simply peddled fear and prejudice. But many readers had real questions.

Public anxiety about asylum seekers is exploited every day by cynical politicians chasing votes.  I hope that if I use my experience as an immigration lawyer to answer your questions, you might reconsider your views about asylum seekers.

Who decides that these people are genuine refugees? How do they decide?

The Australian Government decides. All people who claim asylum are subject to a rigorous process called Refugee Status Assessment. By rigorous, I mean hours of interviews by Immigration Officials – initially without legal advice.

After a brief interview with a lawyer asylum seekers have to make a written request setting out their claim to be a refugee. The definition of a refugee is found in the Refugee Convention and is also part of Australian law.

Each asylum seeker attends a lengthy interview with an Immigration Official. If they arrived on Christmas Island without identification Officials look for any inconsistency in their story.

Asylum seekers are interrogated about their family, the village they claim to be from, the geography and topography of the region, about the types of crops they grew on their farm, the ethnic groups that inhabit the area, their cultural practices and customs. Their answers are cross-checked by the Department of Immigration against detailed and credible country information.
Every asylum seeker is required to pass comprehensive health and security tests.

Why do people come without documentation?

Some people don’t have any identification, because they’ve never had it, they’ve had it taken away by people smugglers or persecutors, they’ve lost it, or they’ve destroyed it.  In Afghanistan most people don’t have passports.  The most common form of identification is the national ID or tazkira, which is held by about 70% of Afghans. The only clients I’ve had who have destroyed their ID have done so out at sea under the instruction of their boat’s captain. They felt they had no choice.

But by far the most common reason for why people don’t bring identification is because they flee without warning to escape danger. Abdul, for example, had to leave suddenly because the Taliban threatened to kill him.  He didn’t have time to go back to his house, get his tazkira, or say goodbye to his family.

What countries do Afghan asylum seekers pass though before coming to Australia? How do they get there? Why don’t they claim protection?

Generally, Afghan refugees will travel a route through Pakistan (by land), to Malaysia or Singapore (by plane), then to Indonesia (by small boat or plane). None of these transit countries are signatories to the Refugees Convention. They offer no protection to people like Abdul.

How do asylum seekers pay smugglers?

People cobble together enough money by exhausting their life savings, selling their property, even their mother’s jewellery – they are desperate. While most Afghans I have represented are poor, people seem to forget rich people can be persecuted too. Money cannot protect people who are targeted by the Taliban. In fact having money, land or a successful business might encourage the Taliban to target a Hazara person.

Why don’t they join the queue?

There is no orderly queue. If they apply to the UNHCR in Indonesia they wait up to 10 years for resettlement, during which time they have no rights and no protection. Once you read the facts you might think twice about calling someone a ‘queue jumper’.

How do you know Abdul wasn’t lying? How do we know you aren’t lying?

While each case must be judged on its individual merits, in my experience people generally don’t risk their lives on leaky boats to come to Australia unless going home is a far more frightening prospect. 
Every lawyer and migration agent is bound by professional codes of conduct. You have to represent your client’s claim honestly or face serious penalties.  I do not, and would never, lie for my clients, or represent a client I knew was lying.

How can Australia’s facilities and infrastructure deal with boat people?
Infrastructure is indeed an important issue for a growing Australia. But linking ‘boat people’ with ‘population sustainability’ is like linking exposed breasts to seismic shifts in the earth’s crust. This infographic might redistribute your concerns.

What about Australian values? Will refugees uphold them?

Every refugee who Australia protects must sign an Australian values statement . These values include “fair play and compassion for those in need.”  Refugees aren’t seeking a free ride – just a fair go. Some readers of my last piece belittled “the compassion argument” as the domain of “bleeding heart leftists”.  The “compassion argument” doesn’t come from the left or right. It comes from our basic human decency.

Compassion is a value that Australians have singled out as fundamental to who we are. If we are serious about Australian values being more than empty rhetoric, we must get serious about designing an effective and compassionate refugee policy. 

Don’t miss: Get The Punch in your inbox every day

Get The Punch on Facebook

194 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Eric says:

      06:02am | 28/07/10

      Same old, same old.

      You dismiss legitimate concerns about “issues like health, criminal element, terrorist infiltration or the blatant open fact of illegal entry” out of hand - not even bothering to address any of those issues. If you have no rebuttal to security questions, then you can hardly be taken seriously on the rest.

    • Kristinem says:

      08:27am | 28/07/10

      To communicate on your level - ‘der’ - read the article, I quote below for the very slow or wilfully ignorant - whichever shoe fits

      “Each asylum seeker attends a lengthy interview with an Immigration Official. If they arrived on Christmas Island without identification Officials look for any inconsistency in their story.
      Asylum seekers are interrogated about their family, the village they claim to be from, the geography and topography of the region, about the types of crops they grew on their farm, the ethnic groups that inhabit the area, their cultural practices and customs. Their answers are cross-checked by the Department of Immigration against detailed and credible country information.
      Every asylum seeker is required to pass comprehensive health and security tests”

    • Phil says:

      09:14am | 28/07/10

      Eric it would appear Brynn being an immigration lawyer stands to profit, or at least her firm profit from illegal immigrants, whose legal bill we no doubt pay for in our taxes.

      Of course an immigration lawyer would never coach an illegal on what so say in their written submission.

      Brynn you might like to answer the following questions, seeing as your accusing the likes of me as being a bigot.

      1. How do they get on a plane without satisfactory documentation?

      2. What do they have to gain by distroying their documentation? Could it be that some have something to hide?

      3. Given the impoverished state of their home countries, how do they get the money to fly then pay people smugglers?

      4. Given most illegals come direct from Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia, I am sure most of them whilst waiting for transit are hardly living in the Hyatt. Surely, firms like yours committed to helping them would travel to the region and advise them to go via the correct channels not get on boats or at least maintain their ID would you not? Or are the legal fees higher if the case drags on longer or does your firm charge a flat fee per illegal?

      As for respecting our Australian Values, how long does that pledge last for? 1 year 20 years. Given that certain sections of society from previous war torn regions got on well but the next generations seem to be having more difficulty assimulating, whether by choice or not, how can we expect our society to be coherent in the future when we allow groups of warring sections of countries both access to our shores. Will not the issues from these countries be played out in our streets in the near or longer term?

      As a lawyer you no doubt believe your clients, their morals, ethics etc. How many of them would you house with your family given the chance?

      I seriously doubt this will get printed, less real answers come forward to genuine questions. I am not against refugees, I do not agree however with what I call queue jumpers, but would be happy for Australia to increase our immigration from camps by 100%.

    • Grumpy says:

      09:25am | 28/07/10

      In case Eric still doesn’t get it, let me re-reiterate:

      Every asylum seeker is required to pass comprehensive health and security tests

    • acotrel says:

      10:09am | 28/07/10

      Scott Morrison should wear a black uniform with skull and crossbones on the cap. The most famous person to use xenophobia as a political tool, shot himself in 1945

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:51am | 28/07/10

      @ Phil

      “1. How do they get on a plane without satisfactory documentation?”
      Ask the airline, or the dodgy security at the country they left.

      “2. What do they have to gain by distroying their documentation? Could it be that some have something to hide?”
      Genuine asylum seekers are those who are persecuted for their ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, business dealings, status etc.  Destroying documentation may save their lives.

      “3. Given the impoverished state of their home countries, how do they get the money to fly then pay people smugglers?”
      Answered in the article.

      “4. Surely, firms like yours committed to helping them would travel to the region and advise them to go via the correct channels not get on boats or at least maintain their ID would you not?”
      That’s if they’re able to contact a lawyer before they get here.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      01:39pm | 28/07/10

      “Phil”,

      Your words: 

      “Of course an immigration lawyer would never coach an illegal on what so say in their written submission.”

      Advice is given, naturally.  Refugee applicants need be aware of the system. 

      But your sarcastic insinuation that a RMA (Registered Migration Agent) or a lawyer who is also an RMA coaches refugee applicants in an improper manner (that is to fabricate a story) shows your true ignorance.

      I am an RMA.  I know that to coach an applicant for ANY visa in an improper manner is severely punished (loss of registration for 5 years - an average income of 50-60,000 per year multiplied by 5 = $300,000 PLUS any charges put forward by the federal police and the almost certain year long surveillance by them).

      To put it simply, no RMA (nor any lawyer who is also an RMA) would do as you imply.  Not with anything to do with the Migration Act 1958 - the penalties are too severe. 

      To put it in perspective, a real estate agent can rip you off to the tune of tens of thousands, and in some cases hundreds of thousands - yet they are unregulated and will face no regulatory consequence.  An RMA can make one mistake and not only is there regulatory punishment but there is every probability of an AFP investigation.

      If you wish to comment on the immigration debate at the level you have chosen here I strongly suggest you read:

      The Migration Act 1958 (as amended)
      The Migration Regulations 1994 (as amended)
      The Migration Agent Regulations (as amended)
      Refugees Convention (UN)

      as a start so that you at least have a clue.  Your prejudices can express themselves a little more succinctly then.

    • Brad of Bentleigh says:

      02:03pm | 28/07/10

      Regarding the destruction of ID/documentation. This is done at the last stage of their journies, and the ONLY reason they do it, is because it makes it easier to claim asylum succesfully… it’s standard operating procedure.

    • Phil says:

      04:36pm | 28/07/10

      A dose of reality.

      So you had a swipe at my comment about a migration agent.

      I notice you did not comment about any genuine questions asked nor did the author. Seems therefore that to state a position then not answer questions, you either a) agree with my position or b) cannot defend the indefensible

    • Steely Dan says:

      04:50pm | 28/07/10

      @ Brad of Bentleigh

      “and the ONLY reason they do it, is because it makes it easier to claim asylum succesfully… it’s standard operating procedure.”
      And you know this how, Brad?

    • Jack Thomas says:

      05:39pm | 28/07/10

      Unfortunately, in attempting to rebut myths about asylum seekers you have not met them with any real facts either, just lots of one off stories.

      I agree there are myths, fear and ignorance, but this is not restricted to those who oppose your view. You simply trot out your own here.

      You quote someone’s comment that “…every leaking fishing boat [is] loaded with people who are unprocessed on issues like health, criminal element, terrorist infiltration or the blatant open fact of illegal entry…” 

      Sorry, but that comment is true, a fact.

      Surely we process them once (after) they arrive, and in matters of background take them on face value?

      What exactly is a lengthy interview? 10 minutes, 1 hour? 1 day?

      Pure unsubstantiated waffle from you Brynn.

      You suggest “But by far the most common reason for why people don’t bring identification is because they flee without warning to escape danger.” How common, 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%?

      Quoting a one off story of Abdul (again, unable to be verified) is not exactly facts backing up your claim. 

      Do you process all of the tens of thousands asylum seekers we had last year? If not, how can you talk about one or two of your clients as if that is the majority.

      Did you report it when your clients advised they had destroyed their ID? If not, why not? Again you fail to mention how many did so? Doesn’t look like the immigration act has any teeth then.

      How many immigration lawyers and RMA’s have been investigated, let alone charged for coaching their clients? Let me guess, none?

      I am not sure when we became responsible for the world’s problems on migration, or became a dumping ground, especially since supposedly liberal democracies like France have far harsher policies and actions against illegal entrants.

      My view is we should accept these people, but be honest that they are just country-shoppers who are looking for the best deal as they cross numerous safe but not as lucrative countries to get here.

      We should provide them with temporary visas requiring them to live in regional cities with designated employment. Let them live and work where and how we say (ie. in areas and jobs which lazy young Aussies won’t) and they can earn citizenship in a couple of years.

      Any refusal to live and work where required would jeopardise their visa applications. Let’s be honest, we haven’t had a terrorist yet (that we know) and the ones more likely to harm us are the home grown Islamic fanatics living in the Western suburbs right now (some facts for once - Sydney, Melbourne 20 people charged with terrorism offences, all Islamic, all ‘home grown’; also several UK court cases).

      Unfortunately, like Aboriginal Australia, there is an entire industry of leeches like Brynn and other lawyers and professional protestors who need the problem to remain to justify their own employment, etc.

      Solving the ‘problem’ of asylum seekers is not what they want. Better to keep this issue bubblilng along and they will earn a lifetime of wages from this gravy train.

      Where are your solutions?

    • John says:

      05:44pm | 28/07/10

      Of course its the same old, same old.

      Should anyone such as Eric or Phil dare question why we don’t have an open door policy to any and all illegal immigrants they are immediately accused of being racist rednecks by all the bleeding hearts.

      Heres a thought… Why don’t we have an “adopt a refugee family” program.

      You can house, feed, educate and medicate as many refugees as you like. All at your own expense of course!

    • ag says:

      08:57pm | 28/07/10

      oh yes we are getting some really nice people on the boats from afghanistan. at our mosque the imam has stopped putting up the australian flag as a group of recently arrived afghans take it down and destroy it every time. this i guess is about religion over statehood and it worrys me

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      03:19am | 29/07/10

      Phil,

      You miss the obvious option:

      The fact that the comment I referred to in my earlier post exposes your complete lack of knowledge in the matter of visa applications/processing and Immigration Law - you simply have NO credibility.

      It is you who thinks the questions you pose are genuine as opposed to being rhetorical, ridiculous, childish and ignorant.  It is you who makes the interpretation to yourself as to what is “genuine”, based on your own prejudice.  Look at your own post, you can answer the overly simplified “questions” yourself.  Although in reading those points you will perhaps see that they invite pre-determined conjecture. 

      Pretending to pose questions in order to push a point of view is a shallow technique favoured by small, closed minds.

      But at least you can share and express your insecurities and hate with like minds (Eric) -perhaps the two of you could arrange a flaming cross club.

    • Phil says:

      08:49am | 29/07/10

      Dose

      So you are a migration agent. One of my wifes relatives used one fo those once albeit that the application was only temporarily unsuccessfully. She is still trying to get permanent residency. For that I am not bitter. I have jokingly suggested she get on a plane to Bali and jump on a fishing boat.

      I paid the agents fees of more than $ 6,000 in 2001. More fees have since been paid.

      How much do you charge or do you work pro bono per person. How much does your firm profit from these people?

      Yes I could be synical and say that you only have your opinion as does the writer cause you stand to make money out of them, but I am well aware that many in the industry deeply care for the people they help.

      To quote you
      “Advice is given, naturally. Refugee applicants need to be aware of the system”  I am aware that this is not coaching.

      You can dismiss my genuine questions all you like. The simply fact remains, I am confident that more Australian’s agree with me than they do with you. Does that make my side right or wrong, no it does not, its an opinion.

      My questions were simple and questions that many Australians want answered. It goes to the core of what happens to our society over time. Australian society has not greatly improved over the past 10 years, we have more crime and a certain amount of that comes from possibly second or third generation people who arrived by boat or as part of a resettlement policy. Not all are bad, no doubt about that. You may be dismissive of them as you choose. Would you say it goes to ones charactor to leave your family to die, your sisters raped, then sell everything for a chance for one persons freedom. Or would you stay and fight for your family.

      Even Sri Lankan friends stated that some that held our customs vessel Ocean Viking? hostage, were tamil tigers with links to bad elements. Yet the bleeding heart softies said we would take them, the Federal Police/ASIO gave warnings. What happens if and or when an attack occurs on home soil as it has in Brittain, Spain, US. Most of them were born there but of refugee/resettlement parents. Yes anyone can go off the rails, Chinese, Australian, Italian, Greek, Afgan, Lebanese Sri Lankan etc, but do we want people who are at war in their own country, coming to Australia where they will be at war here. Is that multiculturism at it best, personally I think not.

      My first post stated that I am all for increasing the intake by as much as 100%, but I personally and that is my choice disagree with giving anyone who gets here precedent over those suffering in camps overseas. If the same logic as your was used for medical treatment in our hospitals, there would be a civil war, if those with money could bribe the specialists for treatment, and those without were left to die. Is that a fair system.

      How many refugees are you and the author of this piece planning to bring in at your cost should the Liberals win power?

      Other than by your work, do you sponsor multiple children overseas? Pay for their schooling, education, clothing etc. Have you personally visited any of them. I doubt that so before you cast your vote on me or anyone else who dares ask some fair questions, you need to look into the mirror.

    • bleedingheart says:

      10:36am | 29/07/10

      Eric, I see you spent 3 hours of your morning on here writing drivel.

      “Would you say it goes to ones charactor to leave your family to die, your sisters raped, then sell everything for a chance for one persons freedom.”

      So you generalise that all refugees have left their families to die? A lot of them bring their families (including children) with them, then they get criticised for the ethics of involving their children.

      “Or would you stay and fight for your family”

      Eric, the real world is not like “Rambo” or a video game. In case you haven’t noticed, NATO has been fighting the Taliban for over 8 years and is losing, the Soviets fought them years ago and lost. You are not much use to your family when you are dead.

      “Even Sri Lankan friends stated that some that held our customs vessel Ocean Viking hostage, were tamil tigers with links to bad elements”

      So I’m guessing your friends are not Tamils and opposed to them having an independent homeland, which is a purely subjective judgement based on one side of the story.  Your friends presumably support the Sri Lankan Government, which is what these Tamils are fleeing from. In case you hadn’t noticed, there was a war over there recently.  As the article said repeatedly, they will be assessed by our Government as to whether they are genuine refugees or not.

      “My first post stated that I am all for increasing the intake by as much as 100%, but I personally and that is my choice disagree with giving anyone who gets here precedent over those suffering in camps overseas”

      Ah, this old fantasy-land argument. Guess what Eric, there are no “queues” for entry to Australia in refugee camps. What there are is a lot of fear, desperation and a life of powerless squalor. So apparently if you were in that situation with your family you would sit and wait for “help” rather than taking action to make a better life for you family? Personally I think the people who have taken the initiative to make a better life are the people we should be taking in.

      “How many refugees are you and the author of this piece planning to bring in at your cost should the Liberals win power? “

      Um, we won’t need to as if you look at the statistics most of the people the Liberals locked up on Naura were eventually granted refugee status anyway, given they were GENUINE refugees.

      As for paying for them, well I pay taxes that fund stuff I don’t agree with like wasteful defence spending, sport funding, baby bonuses and negative gearing rebates for debt addicts. Guess what Eric, you don’t personally get to decide what your taxes are spent on. I personally prefer a proportion of my taxes going to help those genuinely in need rather than dishing out middle-class welfare.

      The election of a coalition Government will just send the cost of keeping refugees offshore to Nauru instead of keeping it in Australia. Maybe do a bit of research into how much the “Pacific Solution” actually cost us. Oh thats right, it “stopped the boats”, ie: “out of sight, out of mind”.

    • Wayne says:

      10:54am | 29/07/10

      Eric, you’re 100% right, but let’s not forget that if these illegal immigrants came to the australian mainland via Aeroplane, they’d have to get past CUSTOMS, but if they got to our mainland via boat, they may not have to go through customs, so really these illegal immigrants are not real refugees, they’e just people trying to escape our CUSTOMS OFFICERS. Also since the recent rise in boat people arrivals in Australia, around 170 boat people HAVE DIED of drowning becuase the boats tese people are on are not seaworthy. Another great reason to stop illegal immigrants by boat atleast. The only people who profit from the illegal boat people trade is people smugglers.

    • Gregg says:

      02:12pm | 30/07/10

      Bleeding heart! Are Eric and Phil of the same non bleeding heart?

    • BK says:

      05:35pm | 01/08/10

      A Dose of Reality

      How many immigration agents have recently been prosecuted for coaching clients? I am not making a debating point and am genuinely interested in the answer. I had never heard about these laws before you discussed them.

    • biff says:

      07:06am | 28/07/10

      Under the loose language of the Convention, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, General Pinochet, and even GW Bush could apply for refugee status in Australia. It would be approved no doubt.

      In the case of Singhalese and Tamils I can’t see why we bring both warring groups into our country. Just one of those groups is enough. India is much closer to Sri Lanka so those arriving here from Sri Lanka aren’t genuine.

    • Ben says:

      04:03pm | 28/07/10

      Dear Biffa,

      The people you mentioned would not be able to claim asylum under the refugees convention or Australian law.
      Article 1F of the Refugees Convention clearly excludes people who would have committed war crimes or crimes against humanity amongst others. Article 32 of the convention allows states to expel a refugee where they are a threat to national security and article 33(2) allows states to expel a refugee for whom there are there are reasonable grounds for regarding as a danger to the security of the country. 

      Section 501 of the Migration act allows the minister to refuse to grant a visa to a person with a serious criminal record or if there is a “significant risk that the person would
      (i)  engage in criminal conduct in Australia; or
      (ii)  harass, molest, intimidate or stalk another person in Australia; or
      (iii)  vilify a segment of the Australian community; or
      (iv)  incite discord in the Australian community or in a segment of that community; or
      (v)  represent a danger to the Australian community or to a segment of that community, whether by way of being liable to become involved in activities that are disruptive to, or in violence threatening harm to, that community or segment, or in any other way. “

      The Refugees Convention was in fact drafted after the holocaust largely to protect many of the victims of the Nazis. Australian law clearly goes even further than that.

      The refugees convention does not discriminate between poltiical affiliations or ethnicity and that is why people from different ethnicities are accepted. ‘Sinhalese’ and ‘Tamil’ are ethnicities. Not all Tamils fight all Sinhalese and vice versa. Far from it. As I pointed out above, those who had committed war crimes would be excluded, so there is little risk that these communities would be warring in Australia.
      There were over 100 000 Sri Lankan refugees living in refugee camps in India in 2009. They have no legal right to remain there even when recognised by UNHCR. Australia received a few hundred Sri Lankan applicants only.

    • biff says:

      04:30pm | 28/07/10

      C’mon Ben, let’s be realistic. Do you honestly think someone setting foot on Xmas Island would blurt out “Hi, I’m XXXXXX and I’m wanted in six countries for crimes against humanity. Can I have a refugee application form please”.

      Don’t you think that some people have the wherewithal to fool the lackwits in the Dept of Immigration? Of all the Tamils who have arrived over the last 10 months we have detained about 5 people who pose a threat to our community. The Dept of Immigration has a bridge for sale if you are interested.

    • interloper says:

      06:09pm | 28/07/10

      Biff, Biff, ... get a grip.

      Yes, it’s possible that some war criminal / mass murderer / islamofascist terrorist got on a leaky boat to Australia. It’s much more likely that they would come using conventional means. Either way, the vast majority of asylum seekers are not bad people. Is the threat of one or two bad eggs coming in good enough to deny hundreds of others?

    • Sherlock says:

      07:07am | 28/07/10

      Great piece but what’s your answer to the problem of asylum seekers? Surely you’re not suggesting we simply throw open our border to anybody who can get here? What about those that can’t afford to pay, what may equal multiple years income, to the people smugglers? Are you saying we should only take those who can afford to pay to get here in place of those waiting in refugee camps who don’t have the resources to bribe a smuggler? That doesn’t sound overly compassionate to me.

      It looks to me is that all you have is the typical leftist guilt trip without anything resembling an answer to a very complicated problem.

    • Bewildered says:

      02:37pm | 28/07/10

      I agree with Sherlock.  I get that the people who come here are in genuine need of refuge.  However, if you consider that the number of refugees who can afford the money to come here (by selling their property, jewellery, etc) are a very small percentage of refugees (assuming that most come from extremely poor countries - as they do - and are without assets to sell).  My concern is that we’re discriminating against the refugees who cannot afford to travel to Australia.  Then there’s the other edge of the sword - if we were truly compassionate (instead of treating refugees like a political football) and opened our borders to every Hazara, Kurd and Tamil who required protection, how many millions of people would we be welcoming to our country? 

      In short, there are so many true refugees that cannot possibly get to Australia.  What are we doing to help them?  And if we did assist them, how would we accommodate the millions of Tamil, Kurdish and Hazara refugees in a country that is struggling to accommodate the population it already has?

    • Jones says:

      07:12pm | 28/07/10

      Sometimes you just need to realise you can’t solve all the world’s problems.  Really? Discriminating against the refugees who can’t get here?  You are dreaming up even more problems.  That’s not helpful.

      What do you want Australia to do?  Go to third world countries and remove people who look like they might be at risk?  Why don’t you ask our own aboriginal population how well that works?

      At some point you just need to accept that things happen in life that you have no control over.  When refugees arrive here, sure they need a good rigorous security screening, and then a fair go.  But for the ones who don’t make it… there is not really all that much we can do for them in an official capacity.

      If you want to personally go and help these people make their way to Australia to claim refugee status (does that make you a people-smuggler?), by all means do.  But don’t expect the government to join you.

    • Mark says:

      11:26am | 29/07/10

      @Jones
      But the govt can do something.  They can choose not to reprocess those refugee applicants that come to our shores, and send them to one of the many UNHCR camps around the world. 

      Instead,  they could take refugees from each of the UNHCR camps, already screened by the UNHCR and thereby not giving preference to a given ethnicity or to those who have money to pay people smugglers.  The UNHCR is CRYING OUT for countries to take more of these refugees.

    • Rachel says:

      07:40am | 28/07/10

      THANKYOU. It’s so nice to see a factual article devoid of the ridiculous scare-mongering that is so prevalent in discussions on asylum seekers at the moment. I’m a school teacher, and find it really depressing that there are so many misconceptions out there which encourage out and out racism. I teach a unit on asylum seekers and I find that once students do receive the facts and realise that a lot of the rhetoric out there is garbage, they become more tolerant.

    • John Adams says:

      08:19am | 28/07/10

      So your job allows you to indoctrinate a captive audience of young minds with your political views? No wonder many people have a dim view of the education industry.

    • Helen says:

      09:37am | 28/07/10

      Yes, John, heaven forbid our tender young ones should be exposed to facts as opposed to the pervasive myths surrounding asylum seekers in our community! The horror! grin

    • Bil says:

      10:03am | 28/07/10

      I guess you need to become more tolerant in essays for your course of otherwise you get a fail…Just because people flatter you by agreeing with when faced with taking a contrary stand that may affect their future does not mean much. A bit like asylum seekers answering question in the way they anticipate to get given asylum not returned home

    • TheRealDave says:

      12:51pm | 28/07/10

      Nice to see frank admissions from an education professional that our kids educations are held to ransom by yet another cause de jour. As if the re-writing of European settlement and the massaging of the facts surrounding the ‘Noble Savage’ wasn’t enough - now this.

      Could you let us know what school you’re at so people can make an informed decision as to wether or not they weant their kids to be indoctrinated with such crap?

      No, didn’t think so.

    • BobM says:

      06:55pm | 28/07/10

      Rachel, another so called intellectual, ‘brain-washing’ students in the Leftie way of thinking. Why not present BOTH sides of the argument so that students can make up their own minds - but I suspect anyone who disagrees with your ‘facts’ are then considered racists.

      From Sky News 27th July 2010-07-27

      Labor’s credentials on asylum seekers have been dealt another blow with claims immigration authorities told the government the success rate for asylum seekers was encouraging boat people.
      Earlier this year, 90 per cent of Afghan asylum seekers were successful in their claims for refugee status.
      The Australian newspaper claims the government was warned that figure was out of line with the rest of the world and to expect up to 10,000 boat people this year as a result.
      The warning reportedly came before the claims of Afghan and Sri Lankan asylum seekers were suspended on April 9.
      The Opposition will today meet with Nauru’s foreign foreign affairs minister to discuss the possibility of reopening the country’s asylum seeker processing centre

    • Freeman says:

      09:00pm | 28/07/10

      I want to know hot these ‘asylum seekers’ a) come to choose australia as a destination, b) know how to get in touch with people smugglers c) know exactly what to say and what action to take (ie, destroying any identification). they sound very informed and organised for people who claim to be fleeing for their lives. people smuggling is a business marketing illegal immigration. there is no evidence to the contrary.

    • watty says:

      07:45am | 28/07/10

      :How do you board a plane to Malaya or Indonesia without documentation? Having travelled to and worked in both countries I have never seen anyone allowed to enter without a current passport.

      If asylum seekers have no protection in Indonesia why did the Labor Government send a boatload of Sri Lankans to Indonesia but then refuse to use Nauru?

    • Super D says:

      08:22am | 28/07/10

      Spot on - this too persecuted to have documentation is absolute nonsense.  They couldn’t get from Afghanistan / Pakistan to Malaysia/Indonesia without it.

    • Jonathon says:

      12:07pm | 28/07/10

      Because we did a disgusting deal with the Indonesians in 1995/6 whereby the area around Christmas Island would be an Indonesian search and rescue zone. So when we spot boat people coming from where ever, we call the Indonesians and they are supposed to come and collect them.

      The beauty of this arrangement is that if the asylum seekers never reach Australian soil/ Territory, they can’t apply for refugee status. It makes avoiding our obligations to the UN (not to mention our obligation to be decent human beings!) so much easier if the refugees never actually make it to Australia.

    • franklin says:

      11:38am | 29/07/10

      Deliberate destruction of travel and identy docucuments is normal procedure for asylum seekers arriving by boat. The destruction of identity documents blatantly occurred during the rescue of asylum seekers by the Tampa. The first mate of the Tampa, Christian Malhaus, testified in a Western Australian court during a people smuggling case that during the rescue he actually saw asylum seekers throw their documentation (“passport like objects”) overboard before boarding the Tampa, thus making it very difficult to establish identities and disprove stories of persecution.

      In July 2001 a boat departed from Cambodia for Australia with 241 Afghans and Pakistanis on board. The boat was intercepted and most of those detained were found to be carrying Pakistani or Afghan passports, many Afghan documents indicating long term residency of Pakistan. The asylum seekers would have been able to apply for asylum in Cambodia as that country is a Signatory to the relevant UN conventions, however, only after interception did many of the group apply to the UNHCR for asylum. Only 14 of 241 (6%) were accepted by the UNHCR as refugees, and the IOM facilitated voluntary return of most of the failed asylum seekers to their countries of origin.

    • DD Ball says:

      07:49am | 28/07/10

      It isn’t compassionate to weaken the border laws and drown desperate people and subject them to piracy. I am well aware of what these desperate people have gone through. Unlike Gillard I am not asking for racial profiling in selecting the ‘right mix’ of peoples to enter Australia. I despise the UN refugee camp system .. but I think it is what we must work with. My dream is for Australia with a population exceeding 420 million but I am not putting a time frame on it. I am an independent running for the seat of Blaxland. I am also a member of the Liberal party, but I run as an independent so that I might raise the issue of the death of school boy Hamidur Rahman.

    • Beagle says:

      10:10am | 28/07/10

      Harry,
      Considering that you ran as a one nation candidate for Blaxland in 2004, your views on this issue are not surprising.

    • DD Ball says:

      08:28pm | 28/07/10

      Beagle, what you write is not true. I have never had anything to do with One Nation, and never will. I remember a colleague of mine saying to my students that she felt that one nation “stood for a lot of awful people.” Actually she used those words, but in a different order. My students were disgusted with her .. she is an ALP supporter.

    • Freddy says:

      07:51am | 28/07/10

      Just a question:

      You said that they have no ID, and that they fly into a country like Malaysia or Singapore. How do they board a plane without any ID?

    • Brisbane Fred says:

      04:37pm | 28/07/10

      Fair question. The travel agents aka ( also known as)  “smugglers”  do all the paper work and retrieve the documents for re use when the traveller aka asylum seeker has got their boarding pass inside the airport.Many of the Hazaras are illiterate ( and that is not their fault, another penalty of being suppressed)  and totally at the mercy of their travel agents.  Malaysia and Indonesia do (or did ?) not require visas from fellow Muslims.

    • Gregg says:

      03:00am | 31/07/10

      Brisbane Fred, they’ll still need passports when arriving at the other end of any flight.
      But what Brynn has said Freddy is that ID can be got rid of once aboard a boat.

    • Macon Paine says:

      08:23am | 28/07/10

      @ the OP

      You said: “Generally, Afghan refugees will travel a route through Pakistan (by land), to Malaysia or Singapore (by plane), then to Indonesia (by small boat or plane). None of these transit countries are signatories to the Refugees Convention. They offer no protection to people like Abdul.”

      Can you (or anyone else) tell us why Malaysia and Singapore are not signatories to the Refugees Convention?

    • Nafe says:

      09:19am | 28/07/10

      Or why they let people into their countries from their air ports without identification.

    • Super D says:

      11:45am | 28/07/10

      My guess is that they’re not signatories because they can see how flawed the treaty is.  Particularly in its modern interpretation.  Lets not forget that the treaty when drafted envisaged European refugees fleeing communism to neighbouring coutries, not middle eastern refugees utilising intercontinental air travel to seek asylum in the country of their choosing.

      It’s worth noting that Afghanistan is a signatory.  Perhaps a regional processing centre should be set up there?

    • fred says:

      04:41pm | 28/07/10

      Signatory countries are usually required to undertake the processing of protection applications, and to settle permanently those asylum seekers who are confirmed to meet refugee criteria. Why would they sign up?

    • Mike Judd says:

      08:24am | 28/07/10

      Compassion doesn’t come into it, there are millions of people in this world who deserve compassion, mainly for the way that they have to live. But letting any-one enter Australia illegally is not compassionate for the ones that are waiting 10 years or so legally. Treating Boat people differently only encourages that method of entry. Lets face it, Australia is a Paradise compared to where they come from and the countries that they pass through on the way. There are plenty of things that need fixing here first before we try to fix the rest of the worlds problems.

    • worriedaboutPC says:

      09:44am | 28/07/10

      Totally agree. Our anthem says that “our lands abound with greatest gifts” and I would love to share those with less fortunate individuals. I do not however wish to see more existing Australians pushed into poverty in order to accommodate refugees. The old charity starts at home addage applies and that is not borne from racism of intollerance all you politically correct do gooders out there. It is called being REALISTIC. Everyone in this nation is currently being dealth a massive dose of reality and I think we will all come to realise that the right way ofrthe highway should apply here otherwise we are going to get ourselves in big big trouble.

    • worriedaboutPC says:

      10:25am | 28/07/10

      woopsie - thats natures gifts - but there are beauties of rich and rare. You get my drift smile

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:32am | 28/07/10

      A systematic Rebuttal of a Rebuttal

      “Abdul, for example, had to leave suddenly because the Taliban threatened to kill him. He didn’t have time to go back to his house, get his tazkira, or say goodbye to his family. ” So how did he get the money together to pay the smugglers? You mention later they sell property and jewellery etc but there is a claer link missing here.

      “If they apply to the UNHCR in Indonesia they wait up to 10 years for resettlement, during which time they have no rights and no protection.” One can safely assume that there are people in this camp already? Who is looking after them or is the camp completely empty so people who come straight to Australia are not getting in ahead of anyone who can wait up to 10 years???

      “Every lawyer and migration agent is bound by professional codes of conduct. You have to represent your client’s claim honestly or face serious penalties. I do not, and would never, lie for my clients, or represent a client I knew was lying.” Perhaps I am confused but I thought the code of conduct was to defend a client to your full abilities regardles of your own prejudices such as thinking they are lying. Feel free to correct me on this one though.

      “How can Australia’s facilities and infrastructure deal with boat people?” This is a legitmate question if you refer to our infrastructure to process boat people. Christmas Island, East Timor, Nauru etc. You have conveniently mixed 2 issues into one as well. Well played.

      “Refugees aren’t seeking a free ride – just a fair go” So are the 300 million in camps around the world. But we conveniently forget them for the ones who make it onto our doorstep. We also forget the 150+ who die trying to make it here as well. But I am just a racist who doesn’t care about refugees.

    • AdamC says:

      09:48am | 28/07/10

      Adam, I noticed that inconsistency in Abdul’s story as well. How can you leave suddenly (without any time even to collect belongings) and have several thousand bucks. Are we to believe Abdul just carries that much around in his pockets, in one of the most dangerous places on earth?

      As I commented about Brynn’s last post, it is simply impossible to verify a refugee story unless you can verify the identity of the refugee. Without proper identification of its teller, a story simply must be internally consistent and corelate with a general understanding of the circumstances in a particular area to be sufficient. It doesn’t actually need to be true.

      Just as peope smugglers instruct their clients to ditch documents (a practice I see Brynn doesn’t deny) they can tell them how to concoct a story that will satisfy Australian officials.

      Rather than rebut the ‘myths’, this article just restates the same old tired fallacies.

    • Your name:eeldraw says:

      11:37am | 28/07/10

      Abdul may have fled without any money at all. His family may have raised the money so that he could flee safely. Of course, that raises the question of how did he then gain access to that money without documentation or bank access? How about Hawala? The informal Islamic value transfer system, which allows a person to provide cash to a broker in one location, for a recipient to pick up from a broker in another location. The agreement entered into by the brokers is that one will settle the debt with the other at some point in the future. No electronic transfers, no identity requirements. It is enshrined in Islamic culture and Abdul (or the people smugglers directly) could have obtained that cash from his family in another city in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Malaysia or Indonesia.

      I wouldn’t assume that the people smugglers would be advising the asylum seekers on how to pass the refugee tests. As mentioned in the article, the kind of interrogation they get would require some pretty detailed knowledge to pass through, not something you can generally concoct on the run without any research into your “story”. Who is doing the advising? The poor illiterate captain on the boat that is also advising them to ditch their ID? Unlikely. The people with the brains in these operations aren’t going to be coming into contact with any of the asylum seekers. They are dealing directly with the poor, uneducated foot soldiers of the smuggling rings, not a place I’d go to get what would amount to “intelligence training”.

    • AdamC says:

      02:27pm | 28/07/10

      eeldraw, I would argue your assumptions are naive. On the first matter of money, you are correct that the family of an asylum seeker could finance their journey to Australia remotely via a whole range of means. However, to do this the asylum seeker’s relatives must be at some kind of liberty and able to retain their possessions. This would tend to undermine the ‘urgent flight’ narrative.

      On the subject of verification, you have missed the point. The intention of document destruction is quite specifically to prevent identification of the asylum claimant. That leaves the asylum-seeker free to concoct a story that is credible on the face of it - it does not have to actually be true. I doubt an Afghani exile in Pakistan (for example) needs a great deal of assistance to come up with such a story. In any event, you simply cannot obfuscate the fact that it is impossible to verify an asylum-seeker’s story unless you can verify the identiity of the asylum seeker himself.

      Refugee advocates should at least acknowldge that the asylum process today is a criminal racket.

    • graham says:

      02:30pm | 28/07/10

      Because, unlike you perhaps, many people are able to save some money, and not just spend every cent they get every fortnight.

      I’m sorry, but $7 000 isn’t all that much anywhere.  I suggest you try travelling.

    • Dark Rider says:

      08:58am | 28/07/10

      And here we have another “unbiased” article from an “immigration lawyer”. Zero credibility because you are a lawyer, and even less - if that is possible - because you represent illegal immigrants. Good luck selling your snake oil.

    • Oscar says:

      10:48pm | 28/07/10

      There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant - do you mean illegal aliens perhaps? Like the backpackers next door to me who’ve outstayed their visas and work for cash? Or do you mean asylum seekers or refugees who are both legally entitled to be here?

    • CJ Morgan says:

      09:02am | 28/07/10

      Thanks for this.  As most comments thus far indicate, there is far too much disinformation about asylum seekers being peddled for political gain in the electorate, and there is a ready audience of unreconstructed racists and xenophobes who love to lap it up and regurgitate it endlessly.

      Facts don’t matter to these miserable Australians, but they do to those of us with compassion and humanity.

    • Dark Rider says:

      01:24pm | 28/07/10

      No doubt you think that your “compassion & humanity” make you morally superior to those with opposing views, but in reality they simply show how naive you are.

    • Freeman says:

      09:07am | 29/07/10

      CJ Morgan.
      if you are fully accepting the authors opinion, that is prett naive.
      as a lawyer, her ‘Job’ is to provide a one sided defence and concede nothing.

    • Jefferson says:

      09:04am | 28/07/10

      It doesn’t matter how much logic you use in this debate, the “illegal immigrants” line is used to whip up hysteria amongst the retarded morons of this country.

      Similar to the phrase “budget deficit”, most people are too stupid to understand what it means, when it applies, why it is necessary, how it is used or much about it other than a few sensationalistic headlines in low-brow newspapers.

      It’s proof that people get the government they deserve. If only there was a country where people like this did not exist in abundance.

    • Charles says:

      09:06am | 28/07/10

      The holes in your argument are numerous and cannot go unmentioned.

      How do people of a suppressed minority, in a country where the average wage is little more than $ 1 per day, manage to pull together $15000-$20000 each to pay people smugglers?

      How do they fly to Indonesia and Malaysia without documentation?

      Many of them spend significant years in Malaysia and Indonesia, some even start their own businesses there, how does fit with your narrative?

      Given they have a lot of opportunity to discuss amongst themselves what their story will be, as many are failed and re-trying asylum seekers, why wouldn’t they have a story that mostly sounds genuine?

      Your article is enlightening in that it ignores and glosses over the many flaws in the process.  The average voter has worked out years ago that the whole exercise is just unfair, and only letting illegal migrants buy their way into this country to the cost of genuine refugees, and that is really what they hate about it.

    • Cat says:

      09:09am | 28/07/10

      My job involves working with aid agencies around the world. I probably know at least as much about refugees as the writer, possibly more - and I have to disagree with much of what she says. I disagree from experience, from first hand knowledge of the system and how it works.
      The arguments she uses sound good on the surface. They are commonly used - and abused.
      It is our duty to take in refugees and we should try to take in more. “Boat people” may represent a miniscule fraction of that intake but the reality is that these people knowingly break the law to make the journey.  It is the illegality that has to be stopped - and it has to be stopped for humanitarian reasons.

    • Fred says:

      09:48pm | 28/07/10

      Cat, please clarify why you say boatpeople “knowingly break the law to make the journey”?  What law, what illegality? Does the UN Refugees Convention not bestow the right to cross any border to all human beings fleeing persecution and seeking protection?

    • Rossco McGlashan says:

      09:18am | 28/07/10

      Thanks Brynn, but your response is still full of leftist hypocritical shit that ignores the real FACTS.

      If we let these people come here by sea we are:
      A). Letting them risks their lives on the ocean. Remember that boat that capsized and drowned hundreds of people a few years back? Oh I bet you forgot about that Brynn. This will continue to happen. People will die because folks like Brynn think they need to be compassionate, by ignoring that people are risking their lives. And dont tell me these people have nothing to lose because they will die from persecution in their country anyway. We have a responsibility to make sure people coming to Australia don’t die on the way here, that’s the simple fact of it.
      B). We are turning a blind eye to and effectively supporting the illegal human trafficers who take vulnerable people’s money in the support of criminal activities. I often wonder if these same criminal groups are responsible for drug trafficking and using their money to support terrorist activities.
      c). We are putting the lives of our defence force members at risk from desperate people who set fire to or wish to scuttle their boats. No one should have a legitimate claim to Australia if they seek to put our citizens and servicemen and women in danger. How many more Defence Force members do we let get burnt or injured Brynn?

      Most of the people who come here by plane need ID and supporting documents to do so. If they have destroyed their documents then they have showed ill will and broken the law.

      Im all for compassion and letting people to seek asylum in Australia, I do not support misguided compassion and stupidity by allowing people to put their lives at risk at sea, support criminal activity, break our laws, and put the lives of our defence force personnel at risk. Those are the real facts Brynn.

    • Fred says:

      09:59pm | 28/07/10

      Rossco, exercise some compassion and just talk to the people who knowingly risk their lives by getting on a stinking little boat .Do not judge them and their actions without hearing their reasons.
      Asylum seekers are hunted down and jailed as illegal migrants in Indonesia because there is no legal obligation to consider their asylum claims. They are unable to either support or protect their families left behind while in transit to a safe destination.Going back is death or persecution for self and family.Staying in limbo in Indonesia for years is a slow death for them and their dependants. It’s hell on kids, Even a 50% chance of drowning is deemed worth the risk. What is the alternative? What would you do?

    • iansand says:

      09:25am | 28/07/10

      It is difficult to overcome fear with reason, as most comments here demonstrate.  Unfortunately the debate about asylum seekers was dragged down to visceral levels for political advantage long ago.

      Playing politics with human misery is contemptible.

    • Richard says:

      11:39am | 28/07/10

      Most of the comments here made in rebuttal of the article sound reasonable ian, at least as reasonable if not more reasonable than the article itself. Its cheap to label intelligent, rational thinkers as “fear-mongers” just ‘cause you can’t use coherent reasoning to reply with yourself.

    • iansand says:

      01:47pm | 28/07/10

      Your definition of reasonable differs from mine, then.  The “rebuttals” are based on fear and ignorance.  If nothing else, the repetition of a single word - illegal - demonstrates that ignorance.

    • Gregg says:

      03:09am | 31/07/10

      And Ian, it is entirely your right and choice to ignore the many posts that question facts claimed, not because of any fear but merely some do just not appear to hold any more water than a leaky boat would.

    • Major Tom says:

      09:31am | 28/07/10

      As a realist and not a racist, I see the problems of bringing people here who follow belief systems and cultural practices which accept stoning of women, honour killing and putting Allah first before the laws of the land.  It’s time to get real about unauthorised arrivals and revoke many of the Clauses of the UNHCR convention as well as the 1067 Protocol which blackmails its’ signatories to accept Afghan men who should be sent back to join the Afghanastan Army instead of our troops fighting for them.

    • James says:

      01:56pm | 28/07/10

      Major Tom, I am no bleeding heart left-wing and I’m not sure how I feel about boat-people but having people like you who claim not to be racist and then spew racist statements to stir up vitriol and cloud what is a complicated situation annoy me. By your reasoning we should not accept Catholics (who put the Pope above the laws of the land) or Hindus (who practice honor killings) or Baptists (who also have arcane views on women’s rights). We accept them because we realize that an individual who is of a particular religious or cultural background does not necessarily harbour the arcane views of that religion.

      Our troops fighting in Afghanistan CHOSE to join the army and defend the freedoms of people who are defenseless. By forcing people to join an army and fight a war then what is the difference between us and the Taliban?

    • Fred says:

      10:24pm | 28/07/10

      Major Tom, have another read of Brynn’s first article and the very values which got Abdul targetted for elimination by the Taliban. What a guy and a gift to the gene pool.  Many Hazara refugees now here fled BECAUSE of the cultural and religious values and practices which demean and persecute women.They despise the ignorant and fundamental mullahs who teach hatred and violence and thank God/Allah that their sons and daughters enjoy freedom here. 

      It is a bit hard to fight the well armed Taliban if you are a Hazara villager who complied with the NATO demand to lay down their arms.  It’s not a regular war,the odds are very unequal and the Afghan Army is nowhere near ready to defend the civilian population, according to latest reports. That’s why Hazara are still fleeing for their lives. Your Government and mine voluntarily decided to buy into this war 8 years ago - becoming combatants , not peace keepers. They are fighting for peace and democracy , which when achieved, will enable many to return home in safety. It is the dream of most refugees to go home, if only they could do so safely.

    • Helen says:

      09:38am | 28/07/10

      Congratulations Bryn, this kind of factual educational article is just what is needed in this discussion, where usually there is more heat than light. Well done.

    • Dave says:

      10:04am | 28/07/10

      Everyone knows that the term “queue jumper” is a metaphor which refers to the 13750 places (the queue) allocated to the refugee and humanitarian program. When asylum seekers arrive at Xmas island they put themselves ahead of the people who are waiting in UNHCR camps scattered around the world.

      The truth is people would be far less worried about asylum seekers if there were not mostly Muslims. There is a good reason for that fear. In this country, we’ve had too many ranting sheiks, 20 people convicted of attempting terrorist acts, too much unemployment, lack of understanding and respect for secular values, the growth of the burqa, hostility towards the “decadent” west and on and on and on…

      Refugee places are scarce and we should allocate them to people who are open minded and willing to integrate, characteristics which are sorely missing amongst the Muslim community.

    • Nick says:

      10:47am | 28/07/10

      Wow, Dave, thank you for your honesty.  Can’t say I agree with you, but at least you’ve got the courage to say what most of these people really believe.  It’s not about queue jumpers, or fairness, is it?  It’s about not wanting Muslims to come to this country.  There you go: the truth.

    • Bo says:

      01:57pm | 28/07/10

      Nick, you’re incorrect. It’s about BOTH. Australians have the right to not want illegal immigrants AND to not want a large influx of muslims. There are too many European countries that would give anything to turn the clock back on both issues, often the same people.

    • Ricky says:

      03:02pm | 28/07/10

      Spot on Dave.Well said.Personally, i think muslims have themselves to blame for the loathing many Australians feel towards them.They are being judged by their actions & attitudes.I wonder how many boat people have bothered to show Australia the respect of learning our language? I wonder how many are still on welfare?That money should go to our old age pensioners, not an illegal country shopper.

    • Nick says:

      03:30pm | 28/07/10

      Ricky and Bo, you are saying that Muslims should not be allowed to come to this country (or at least not to any large degree).  Why is that exactly?  I’m just trying to understand your point of view.

    • Fred says:

      10:37pm | 28/07/10

      The Shia Muslim refugees from the latest wave of boatpeople whom   I know are fleeing religious persecution and want a peaceful and safe life .Plenty of “secular Muslims” amongst them, no fundamentalists.

      Which Muslims are you talking about Dave?

      You are right to name Islam and Muslim people as an issue, but misunderstandings abound. Don’t blame the newcomer refugees for the “sins” of the vilified Sydney Muslims who came more than 30 years ago and their Oz born children, quasi refugees who had no settlement services and were not welcomed or helped to learn English or integrated because the standard of education was so poor.

    • Dave says:

      11:19am | 29/07/10

      Fred, if the muslims you describe want a good life here, I wish them the best.

      However, the previous wave of Muslim immigration, especially from the ME and Lebanon has been a failure. On all socioeconomic and educational metrics there have been lagging behind other ethnic groups and the broader community. Studies overseas have shown than socio economic factors are not as important as cultural/religious factors in creating this situation. In australia, Asian students from similar socio econmic background peform much better.

      The Muslim leadership has been hostile and crude towards western values and women. They have been pushing for the recognition of polygamy,  the social acceptance of the burqa, the introduction of some form of sharia law, and just a few weeks ago 500 people gathered in Bankstown to listen to the islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir asking Muslims in this country to shun democracy because it is un-islamic.

      Now no other ethnic group has such appalling track record.

    • fred says:

      01:14am | 30/07/10

      Dave, your comments re the failed integration of Muslims from the Middle East, especially The Lebanon must be understood in the context of the failed settlement services for the quasi refugees who came out of a civil war and did not have access to English classes or to good education for their kids. A total government stuff up, for which we will pay for generations. The alienation experienced then, must be dealt with now.  Religious teachers who preach separatism or violence can be refused extensions of their visa or charged - but politicians who should have done so believed in an ethnic vote, and were intimidated. My Afghan Muslim friends are gentle law abiding folk who love their kids, work their butts off and will support their education. The first generation is a bit conservative - understandably so, but look out for the movers and shakers in the next!

    • Chiara says:

      10:05am | 28/07/10

      The most interesting (perhaps frightening?) aspect of opinion pieces on “the boat people issue” is the comments roll, every time. I’m all for lively debate, but it sickens me how individuals seek to poke holes in pieces which merely seek to lay out the facts of this issue. All that is proven by the pedantic arguments featured in comment rolls across the media is the sorry fact most Australians are looking for an excuse - any excuse - to close our borders.

    • Truckle the Uncivil says:

      09:34pm | 28/07/10

      There are some good arguments for closing our borders considering current and future conditions.  We have added considerably to our melting pot.  Now is the time to use that pressure to make the pot bigger.  But we cannot keep up our current rate of immigration.

      But closing on racial grounds?  No.

    • Sally says:

      10:05am | 28/07/10

      A double thankyou to you Bree.  Firstly, you have taken the time to write a piece which presents an intimate and alternate view of the asylum issue.  Secondly, you are actually on the front-line attempting to help individuals not just waxing lyrical from the side-lines about the masses.

      The systematic response we have to asylum seekers is not ideal.  What system is?  The problem is, like it or not, sometimes all we can do is “think globally, but act locally”.  I can’t see how we sleep better at night repeating the mantra ” if THEY make it here ILLEGALLY, not our problem, what about all the refugees in camps around the world?”

      This seems a bit like not feeding your child dinner because millions of children around the globe are starving, or not donating a blanket to a homeless man in one of our parks because the homeless is Russia, now they know what freezing is.

      We should do more to quickly process people awaiting relocation in UN camps.  I would like to think ALL the people who CARE SO MUCH about these refugees are also active (donating to human rights organisations, writing to members of parliament, organising petitions, gathering donations, volunteering skills and time and working at ground level to bring about change).  That is what I would like to think.  Unfortunately, the realist in me doubts this is the case.

      It appears easier to adopt the “out of sight, out of mind/the problem is too big/they are criminals/why help one person right in front of me (realistically) when I care more deeply about the millions I can’t and won’t be able to help (idealistically).

      We can all sleep better in the knowledge that none of us are selfish, none of us are greedy, none of us are racist, none of us are sanctimonious, none of us are lucky…..we are all just so compassionate, informed and overwhelmed by the enormity of the issue globally that it is better to stop those boats.

    • TheRealDave says:

      12:58pm | 28/07/10

      “Secondly, you are actually on the front-line attempting to help individuals not just waxing lyrical from the side-lines about the masses.”

      You forgot to mention that Brynn also makes a living from representing these people as an immigration lawyer.

      Do you make the same judgement calls when Bronwyn Bishop posts an article here on the Punch calling Big Jools the Devil in Disguise? Or when Chris Emerson throws verbal barbs at the Liberals?

      I have more faith in my fellow Punchers, regardless of wether they agree with me or not, than someone who is a paid for mouthpiece for a particular viewpoint.

    • Sally says:

      02:43pm | 28/07/10

      @TheRealDave,
      I understand all of us are guilty of bias.  I thank Brynn for her insight (from within the system) and dedication to pursuing a path within the legal profession that is, in my own biased opinion, a noble one.

      In response to your question, “Do you make the same judgement calls when Bronwyn Bishop posts an article here on the Punch calling Big Jools the Devil in Disguise?”,  my answer is no.  That is her personal, biased interpretation of a political foe.  If, however, Bronwyn Bishop were to post an article on the inner-workings of the funding of aged-care during her time as Minister for the Aged, I would take more notice.  Having been involved in the process herself, I would be interested in her assessment of how things worked.  I don’t feel the article intended to offer opinion or solutions, merely explain the processes.  If you see more validity in the assertions of those outside the process, good for you.  It doesn’t invalidate my interpretation. Cheers.

    • TheRealDave says:

      05:22pm | 28/07/10

      @Sally - so you have no issues of ‘bias’ when the author of the article is reliant on the particular viewpoint she is espousing as she earns her living based on that viewpoint?

      You are far far more trusting, some might say naive, than most of us would be. Or, more likely, it conforms to your own personal bias on the subject so you are far more willing to overlook pertinent facts about the principals?

    • Gregg says:

      03:19am | 31/07/10

      Sally,
      Brynn is hardly on the front line just flying up to Christmas Island to be a legal representative and if you have a look at my post at about 174 [ three parts ] you’ll see where I have made it very clear that some of the links she uses are decidedly lacking when compared to UNHCR data etc.

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:25am | 28/07/10

      Please please please answer me one simple question Ms O’Brien. If these people are so called genuine refugees then why don’t they simply fly straight into Australia??? Why do they fly half way around the world to Malaysia or Indonesia and complete the journey by boat???

      Could it have something to do with the fact that illegals that come by boat have a greater than 90% chance of being classified bona fide refugees whereas those that arrive by aircraft have less than 20%?

      I await your response with baited breath but am pretty cetain you will have none!    Punch On!

    • Nick says:

      11:12am | 28/07/10

      Paul, your question interested me so I did a quick search.  I found that claimants who arrive by plane mostly have legitimate visas to begin with and then claim protection after they have arrived.  These people are more often found to be non-genuine Refugees.  It seems to me that most people who are capable of getting a legitimate Visa in advance would likely be people who are not in need of Humanitarian Assistance and/or Protection.  Does that make sense to you?

    • AdamC says:

      11:37am | 28/07/10

      Nick, a better answer to Paul’s question is that a) it is (probably) difficult to get a tourist or other visa to visit Australia from Afghanistan (or, more likely, Pakistan); and b) if you fly directly into Australia you cannot adopt a more protection-friendly identity.

      For both of these reasons, Afghan asylum seekers come via boat.

    • Paul Horn says:

      12:16pm | 28/07/10

      Yes Nick it makes sense but does not answer my question. The fact that the majority of claimants arriving by air have legitimate visas does not prevent the arrival of those without identifying documentation. The simple fact is that if these same boat arrivals were to enter our shores by air they would be summarily rejected and returned forthwith to their country of origin!

      Because there would be no bleeding heart photos of “persecuted” folk floating dangerously on the ocean no one would give a damn.  This is I find hypocritical! 

      If people can spend tens of thousands of dollars to people smugglers then I cannot accept that they cannot provide documentation of some form or another substantiating their claim. Here are a few more interesting facts that I bet will not get posted taken from this Govt website   http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/cib/1999-2000/2000cib13.htm and I quote

      “Air arrivals

      Over the last few years, but without equivalent press coverage or sense of urgency, the number of people illegally arriving by air (that is with no valid entry documents or with forged documents) has also increased dramatically. In 1998-99, 2106 persons were ‘refused immigration clearance’ at airports, compared with 1550 in 1997-98, and 1347 in 1996-97. The main countries of citizenship of recent illegal air arrivals have been Iraq, Malaysia, South Korea, the People’s Republic of China, India, and Thailand. “

      It may be 10 years old but it certainly states my case - illegal entrants arriving by air with no documentation are turned around and rejected with no right of appeal within a few days wheres those that arrive by Boat can launch numerous appeals and hold the system to ransom indefinitely.

      Ms O’Brien has a problem! Please explain!

    • iansand says:

      01:51pm | 28/07/10

      But, Paul Horn, if those air travellers without papers claimed asylum they could not be deported.

    • Nick says:

      03:07pm | 28/07/10

      Paul, if they don’t have ID then I don’t think they can’t board the plane, unless they use forged documents.  If they have forged documents they will get caught at the other side and put in detention.  The majority of people in immigration detention are their because they’ve overstayed their visa or have used forged documents.
      But you seem to be saying that people go by boat simply because they have a higher likelihood of success than if they went by air (90% vs 20%).  Yet, if what you are saying is correct, it would mean the Immigration Officials who process the Boat people are completely and utterly incompetent, missing more than 70% of the ‘fakes’, year after year.  I just don’t find that believable.

    • Paul Horn says:

      05:56pm | 28/07/10

      Not necessarily iansand the UK has a huge problem with people claiming asylum and arriving with no documentation. So the UK immigration department has requested that airport authorities in the source countries photocopy peoples visa details, passports and other identifying documentation prior to embarkation. The tightening of security in Australian airports combined with closer cooperation between internaitonal airport authorities has led to a substantial decrease in unauthorised arrivals claiming asylum with either forged or zero documentation.

      Of course if you make a stop over in a third world nation such as Indonesia this system becomes irrelevant.

      It also needs to be said that many Afghani asylum seekers were in actual fact Hazaras living in Quetta, Pakistan. These are not refugees as Hazaras have a thriving community there and in other cities of Pakistan such as Balochistan. This amounts to political lobbies,  student groups, business communities etc etc despite the lying claims made by Julian Burnside.
      Go to this website for proof   http://hazaranewspakistan.wordpress.com/

      For Gods sake they even hold open air demonstrations against the Pakistani Government for not dong more to curb terrorist acts of violence committed by the Taliban. Cowering masses too afraid to leave their homes in case of being shot as proclaimed by Burnside. No bleedin way!  Lies lies and more damned lies by the Left.

    • Hamish says:

      10:26am | 28/07/10

      Point on relevance. All this article does is point out that most boat people who come here have it pretty tough. Well, no s%@t. Most people in the world have it pretty tough. Australia’s much nicer than pretty much anywhere else. The argument you need to make is why Australia should accept people who turn up uninvited in a boat with no documentation instead of the many more people who are waiting in camps for what you claim is up to 10 years.

      Point on consistency. You claim that people have to flee at the drop of a hat with no time to even say goodbye to their family, yet you also claim that people finance their boat ride by selling property, even their mother’s jewellery. How can they do this is they’ve just fled without even saying goodbye to their mother? Selling property takes time. You should have just made the point that rich people may still be persecuted. It’s also a bit weird that someone would flee, leaving behind their family to fend for themselves (especially in such a male-dominated society) if they are seriously fearing persecution. After all, I would have thought the persecutors would simply move onto their family (that’s what I’ve been taught by gangster movies, etc, anyway).

      Point on securty. You say that people either don’t have documentation in the first place (in which case they couldn’t board a plane to Singapore or Malaysia) or that they are forced to get rid of identity documents by people smugglers. I wonder why the smugglers would care, but I’ll just take that on face value. My point is, why should we care why they threw away their documentation? The fact is we don’t know who they are. Our government has a responsibility to ensure that people who come here don’t pose a security risk. Unless we are 100% satisfied that someone is who they say they are, we should not let them in.

      Point on omission. It’s relatively easy to make these points about Afghanistan. Everyone knows there is a war on and that the Taliban are dangerous and cruel. What about somewhere like Sri Lanka? The war there is over. Why are we getting Tamil boat people now? They wouldn’t be justifiably fearing punishment (not persecution) for their participation in what was a very nasty civil war, would they?

    • AdamC says:

      11:29am | 28/07/10

      I couldn’t agree more, Hamish.  I especially like your observation about the single maleness of most claimants and how that seems inconsistent with a genuine, urgent flight from imminent harm.

      In fact, what it shows is that asylum-seeking has ceased to be about protection from persecution, but rather is concerned with resettlement in the west. Once arrived, Abdul, for example, will likely send for his family in Quetta or Peshawar to join him here. One way to discourage boat arrivals is to make family reunion more difficult.

    • Hamish says:

      01:25pm | 28/07/10

      Yeah, it’s a bit strange isn’t it - I’m so scared of being persecuted that I had to leave my wife and children behind. If Brynn feels the plight of someone like Abdul so deeply, how distraught must she feel about the poor women and children left to fend for themselves without their primary bread-winner and with evil persecutors so desperate to torture or kill their husband/father that he had to leave ‘without even saying goodbye’.

      I suppose they console themselves by selling the family jewellery or house or farm so they can send the cash via money order, dodging bullets all the way. I guess the question is, are people like Abdul really being persecuted or are the Taliban just really sh@#ty persecutors?

    • SkepDad says:

      10:32am | 28/07/10

      The one refugee I know personally is a far more decent human being, by all accounts, than some of the commenters here.

      Thanks for an interesting and thought-provoking article.

    • Hamish says:

      10:45am | 28/07/10

      The one refugee I know personally came here through the proper channels and has absolutely no time for asylum seekers who come here by boat. He is a very decent human being.

    • James1 says:

      04:03pm | 28/07/10

      I know quite a few Afghan women and their children who came here on boats, and they are very decent human beings too.  And none of them apologise for wanting a better life (or in one case, not wanting to be stoned to death).  You apparently would withhold that from her, Hamish.

    • Hamish says:

      04:29pm | 28/07/10

      Yes I would James. I’m sure there’re lots of very decent human beings wanting a better life who are perfectly able to apply for asylum or a standard visa through the proper channels. And most do.

    • James1 says:

      04:35pm | 28/07/10

      Are you serious?  You would rather see a woman stoned to death than not claim asylum through so-called proper channels?  Wow.

    • Hamish says:

      09:20am | 29/07/10

      James, I imagine she didn’t come by boat all the way from Afghanistan (which would obviously be impossible). While I’m sure she was about to be stoned in Afghanistan, she wasn’t going to get stoned in Indonesia. So she would have been perfectly capable of applying for asylum in any number of the countries she spent time in on the way to Australia. Nice attempt at emotional blackmail though…

    • JT says:

      10:44am | 28/07/10

      So an immigration lawyer defends illegal refugees breaking the law with a laundry list of excuses. How not shocking at all.

      Just a postscript, Illegal refugees are not asylum seekers, the latter follow the rules and queue for asylum. The former do not.

    • IMHO says:

      10:56am | 28/07/10

      Brynn there’s no doubt that the asylum seekers who arrive here in boats need to be handled compassionately and efficiently…I abhor anyone rotting away behind bars in Australia waiting to be processed. This is the part of the story you see as an “immigration lawyer” and I imagine you do your job well.

      I wonder though whether you are truly advocating that Australia should send out the message that anyone seeking asylum should hop into a boat and turn up in Australian waters. I wonder if you believe that Australia should make no effort to take control of the numbers of asylum seekers arriving in an unauthorised fashion, or do you suggest this is not possible.

      I think we are right to try to minimise the number of boats entering the water where possible (but wrong to do that by demonising asylum seekers once they get here).

    • Nick says:

      11:26am | 28/07/10

      IMHO, I think the author is asking that we take the facts into account when designing an effective yet compassionate refugee policy.  I don’t think she is saying we should throw open our borders.  Actually, I think that your last paragraph sums up precisely what she is trying to say, but from a different perspective.  You say we should ‘minimise’ the number of boats but not at the expense of demonising asylum seekers.  I think she would probably agree with you on that.

    • Kordez says:

      10:57am | 28/07/10

      @Brynn, I can sympathise with Abdul. The fact is that Abduls country is unsafe, our dollars would be better spent resolving that issue rather than the millions spent on dealing with a select few here in Australia, having no real impact on a long term entire culture inclusive solution. In my opinion it’s scummy to sell off all belongings and run from an issue when a family is relying on you. I would prefer to die knowing I’d done all I can to ensure my families safety than save my own ass, and it bothers me that this mentality is being exploited to develop empathy for them.

      I sure as hell wouldn’t walk away from my mother with a gun to her head, I wouldn’t fly across the world knowing my son or daughter are at risk of being raped or trained to kill innocent people and I most certainly wouldn’t take all my assets and leave those most important to me stranded in the situation I was fleeing. I’m not sure I want this kind of mentality living next door to me yet alone funding the safety of it. We live in a different world to these people however sad their situations may be, purely by natural selection these are the issues they are required to deal with and we should help, but on our terms, not theirs.

      Having and sharing an opinion is not racist, not matter how you spin it.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      11:55am | 28/07/10

      @ Kordez - you say “Having and sharing an opinion is not racist, not matter how you spin it.”

      While that’s true, it certainly doesn’t mean that the opinions held and “shared” aren’t in themselves racist.  For example, your invocation of “natural selection” as the cause of refugees’ plights implies that there is some kind of innate reason that the societies from which they flee are dysfunctional.

      That certainly seems like an intrinsically racist opinion to me, even if you’ve been careful to dress it up in non-racist terms.  Pity about the “natural selection” slip, eh?

    • Lin says:

      01:19pm | 28/07/10

      Kordez, a very good point! I have also been wondering why is it mostly younger men who come here, what’s happening to their women and children? It does seem cowardly to leave them behind, often for many years, if there is such a danger.

      Also wanted to say that the fascists of WWII were defeated by the brave civilian resistance movement supporting the liberation allies. Many were killed fighting the oppressors in their country, but were eventually liberated from them. If Afghans truly want to be liberated from Taliban, why don’t they fight for it?? Coalition forces are already there doing it with the Afghan government support. In that respect you could say that their situation is much better than was during the WWII when often the government was supporting the fascists, and the allies did not have basis in the country.

      A lot to wonder about here, giving us more reasons to doubt those men arriving illegally.

    • Brisbane Fred says:

      11:20am | 28/07/10

      Thank you Brynn. I don’t expect people who have never met an asylum seeker to abandon their disbelief and cynicism or find the inclination to walk in their shoes - or barefoot- for that terrifying refugee escape journey, like Abdul’s.
      The Australian media would serve humanity and civilised society well, if it chose now to tell the many human stories and enable refugees who did find safety and a new life here, their personal story. They might need help to break through the trauma of speaking their story, but I defy decent folk to not be touched if not moved by compelling accounts of “man’s inhumanity towards man” . And then we must have the accounts from women and children, the most numerous victims of the circumstances that create asylum seekers fleeing for their lives.
      Please have a surfing lesson and breakfast with Abbott and Morrison, followed by one with Gillard and Evans. Soon.

      ths y
      i

    • Eskimo says:

      11:55am | 28/07/10

      Why does someone who can afford to pay a people smuggler deserve to come here before someone who must wait for 10+ years in a UNHCR camp because they can’t afford to pay a people smuggler?

    • brisbane Fred says:

      04:26pm | 28/07/10

      What if there is no convenient or safe UNHCR camp nearby? UN and other international agencies have withdrawn their staff from dangerous areas in Afghanistan.
      A refugee does not have to be destitute to meet the refugee criteria, and selling everything and borrowing money for an escape journey is a fair indicator of the threat being experienced. Use your imagination !

    • Gregg says:

      03:28am | 31/07/10

      Look up UNHCR details for Afghanistan and Pakistan Fred and you might be a tad surprised and to save you looking too hard I’ve posted links in my post below.

    • Eleanor says:

      12:02pm | 28/07/10

      Brynn, I could kiss you. I’m posting this to my facebook in the hopes that some of the ‘friends’ in my list who think they’re so clever by regurgitating the ‘F*CK OFF WE’RE FULL’ sentiments read this and realise just how far they’ve shoved their heads into the sand.

    • Graham S says:

      12:10pm | 28/07/10

      Well why are we not surprised by such a heart rendering article on the illegal immigration industry by no less a person than an migration agent and lawyer, who oddly enough makes her living off the back of the taxpayer and confirming, yet again, that 99% of all lawyers give the rest a bad name. Add to this article is the expected sympathetic clucking by the usual Inner suburban, love my local ethnic cafe clique tsk tsking anybody who dares stand up and who’s had enough of these contemptible illegals who are not wanted and arrive by boat simply because they can get away with it. We’re a joke and before long it won’t be a handful of boats it will be a flotilla and the die will have been set. Wait till 5 -10,000 unwanteds arrive and see what the prevailing attitude will be then.

    • James says:

      08:45pm | 28/07/10

      what exactly are you basing this on? Not every lawyer is rich or works for huge fees. Not every lawyer is a con artist out to screw the world. Many of the lawyers who work with asylum seekers do so working long hours for little pay or do it free of charge while working full time at another job. You have no idea who Brynn, where she lives or what life she leads. If you are going to argue someone argue their ideas and the facts as you see them. Don’t badger them based on some sterotype view about which is probably bullshit.

    • Graham S says:

      11:45am | 29/07/10

      James, you don’t know S&^T except for being an apologist. What makes you think who I know & don’t know, etc. One can only assume you’re one of the 1%. And as for “Migration Agents’, when did this lucrative little lurk start up. Let me guess…oh about the same day the 1st illegal boat arrived way back when and the cash has been flowing in since and we’re all doing very nicely thankyou. Give your bleeding heart a rest, it might do with a break.

    • Lin says:

      12:30pm | 28/07/10

      Brynn, your article does show that you are a compassionate person with a lot of goodwill (despite being an immigration lawyer).
      However, could you please elaborate on some of your statements:

      “In Afghanistan most people don’t have passports…..  Generally, Afghan refugees will travel a route through Pakistan (by land), to Malaysia or Singapore (by plane), then to Indonesia (by small boat or plane).”
      How is this travel route (by plane) possible without a passport? Surely Singapore and Malaysia would require them to present a passport when entering their country. 

      Then:
      “But by far the most common reason for why people don’t bring identification is because they flee without warning to escape danger….
      “People cobble together enough money by exhausting their life savings, selling their property, even their mother’s jewellery.”
      A lot of contradictions here:
      If I understand it correctly, let say Afghans, they flee danger, so they don’t bring IDs with them (or don’t even have them), but somehow have enough time to sell properties and jewellery, and then also ‘somehow’ get on the plane to Singapore and Malaysia, which I KNOW requires passport checks, without an ID.

      Isn’t it so Brynn that you want to believe what these people tell you? I read comments from government employees processing the asylum seekers on Christmas Island how they know for sure that the stories they hear are very well prepared and passed on from one boat load of asylum seekers to another. Boat people live in the information age too!
      And then the number of people given the refugee status depends on the government direction of the day: they simply rubber stamp as many as they are told by wiping aside any unconfirmed ‘stories’, or refusing them regardless of the ‘story’ - hence currently a sharp drop in the approvals for Afghans, because the government wants to look tough. But no doubt a ‘review’ or two later they will be simply allowed to stay too.

      Brynn, it is this muddled, insincere process that gets everyday people worried, not the number as such. Although that too has grown this year to potentially take up the whole annual refugee quota, not leavening any space for others who wait.

    • JJ of SC says:

      12:38pm | 28/07/10

      India has a large Tamil population in its southern most state, Tamil Nadu. From there a chain of islands almost link with Sri Lanka, 33km away.
      What is it that is so bad about a short boat trip across to India, to the waiting arms of fellow Tamils, that people would rather the long and dangerous trip to Australia?
      I must have missed something here! Can anyone help?

    • KH says:

      02:28pm | 28/07/10

      Centrelink doesn’t have an office in India.  All jokes aside, this is a perfectly good question - I don’t understand it either.

    • Cuppa says:

      03:17pm | 28/07/10

      One word.CENTRELINK!!

    • iansand says:

      03:45pm | 28/07/10

      Actually, another few words are India is not a party to the refugee conventions and the Tamils have no right to claim asylum there.  If you read this place regularly that is a fact that has been pointed out a gazillion times.  Unfortunately, it is reasonably plain that those people too dumb to see through the political scare campaigns are also too dumb to absorb one simple fact.

    • James1 says:

      04:06pm | 28/07/10

      KH and Cuppa,

      If things went bad here, and you needed to seek asylum, would you look to East Timor, or New Zealand?

    • Gregg says:

      03:34am | 31/07/10

      And Ian, what is it with you that you cannot bother to check UNHCR data that will in fact tell you that thre are about 80,000 Sri Lankan refugees in India and close on 2M refugees in Pakistan.

    • John S says:

      01:00pm | 28/07/10

      Conventional immigrants are required to assert they are of good character, and to disclose their criminal records. Does this happen for the ‘asylum seekers/informal economic migrants’? Also considering they are the paymasters for the people smugglers, why is this not considered in character test? Surely this behaviour would make them liable to be charged with conspiracy or as an accessory to the people smugglers?

    • Bo says:

      01:40pm | 28/07/10

      So let me get this straight…they have no time to get documentation, but they have time top sell their land to pay the people smugglers. Is that right? Oh wait…they DO have documentation to board the flight from PAKISTAN (in the Afghan case), where there are plenty of areas where they will not be threatened by the Taliban (I presume the Taliban M.O. is to not just shoot you, but to put a threatening poster on a local wall). Pakistan is a safe country. Once they make it there they are no longer in danger.

    • Rex Jones says:

      01:57pm | 28/07/10

      I really don’t understand people that obvioulsy have racist based views and completely lacking in compassion, trying to excuse these views as ‘realistic’. Face up to the facts people: Less than 2% of all asylum sekers come by boat and of these 95% are legitimate refugees. If the number of current refugees (during this aparant ‘flood’ of boat people) continued, it would take 20 years to fill the MCG. Hardly a scary number!  Australia geographically isn’t the easiest place to get to so its highly unlikely that we are going to be overrun by boats. Anyway, these refugees will in the long run contribute alot more to Australia than many of the people born and bred here (ie - people rorting the welfare system)

    • Ricky says:

      03:25pm | 28/07/10

      Contribute a lot more to Australia than actual Australians? Your kidding right?These illegals rort our welfare system worse than anyone, as well as ‘contributing’ stone age attitudes &  disrespect to their host country in many cases.Our money should be spent on our hospitals & elderly, not some welfare sucking illegal who is only here to make a politically correct latte sipper feel good at night.

    • Rex Jones says:

      04:13pm | 28/07/10

      Ricky - what about all the Aussie bogan families that have generations of dole bludgers, sitting on their arse doing nothing, getting pregnant just so they can spend their baby bonus on a flat screen. There are alot more of them rorting the system than hard working immigrant families. Look at our schools - all the best performing students are children of immigrant parents - vietnamese, indian, sri lankan. These people want to get somewhere.

    • Louise says:

      01:59pm | 28/07/10

      Many of the questions raised here seem pretty valid.  I think we need to:
      - Increase the percentage of immigrants coming from the Refugee camps - Make that the more attractive option and perhaps people will spend less time risking their lives on leaky boats
      - Give preference to families over singles who’ve left the missus behind (if it was so unsafe for you surely it was the same for her and the kids)
      - Increase funding and assistance to the sh*tty countries that these people come from.  I expect most would like to stay in their homelands if they could
      - Improve the support and “integration” networks.  You can’t just drop a person from a completely different culture in the city and expect them to understand how things work here.  It creates the kind of friction that makes ppl oppose immigration.
      - Compulsory language lessons - Its been my experience that some ppl get here and never learn the language (women in particular). Maybe if we could have a conversation together you’d all seem a little less scary.
      I realise its a far more complex issue but thats my two cents worth.

    • SkepDad says:

      02:05pm | 28/07/10

      It’s my understanding that there are 147 parties to the UN Convention on the Status of Refugees.  May I ask what causes central-Asian refugees to risk a dangerous ocean crossing and expensive travel through many non-signatory states to Australia, when there are numerous signatory nations within walking distance (relatively speaking?).

      Is there any protocol to balance accepted refugees across all signatory nations, e.g. on a per-capita or per-habitable-square km basis?  One wonders if such an approach might be fairer on all signatories than just accepting whoever makes it to your shores.

      I ask in genuine curiosity, not from a desire to be polemical or insular.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      02:40pm | 28/07/10

      The simple answer, SkepDad, is that many of the people who attempt to sneak into Australia through the back door are country shopping economic opportunists who see Australia as both the land of milk and honey, and (currently) a soft touch.

    • iansand says:

      05:55pm | 28/07/10

      SkepDad - Would you choose to escape to Iran, or Kyrgyzstan?  Those places you think should be the destination are either sources of refugees or already take many, many times the number of refugees that Australia takes. 

      Charles Kelly - Any evidence of that, or is it something that “everyone knows”?  “Everyone knows” is, almost universally, code for uninformed prejudice.

    • SkepDad says:

      08:21am | 29/07/10

      @ iansand:

      If I were an Afghani facing persecution, I would choose the nearest signatory country that offered me and my family a reasonable chance of protection.  Which, geographically, is about 120 of the 147 signatory nations ahead of Australia. 

      Do you see how I am asking reasonable questions of fact and making reasonable, non-perjorative statements?  Try it sometime, it’s how adults debate.

    • franklin says:

      11:26am | 29/07/10

      The following world map shows the countries that are States Parties to the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees and/or its 1967 Protocol.

      http://www.unhcr.org/4848f6072.html

      When Afghanistan is located on the map it can be seen that there are four member UN states which are signatories to the Refugee convention that actually border Afghanistan, and there are four more countries that are only one country away.

      The relevant question is why do able bodied Afghani men pay many thousands of dollars to people smugglers to reach Australia when there are at least eight countries nearby which are signatories to the UN Refugee Convention where they can seek refuge. The reason is very obvious, they travel to Australia not so much to escape persecution but more for economic reasons . The refugee system is unfortunately being misused by criminal gangs of people smugglers as a means to allow the migration of their clients from dysfunctional third world societies to afluent western countries.

    • iansand says:

      12:04pm | 29/07/10

      Where you happen to think they should go has no effect on our obligations once they arrive here.

    • Crash says:

      02:07pm | 29/07/10

      May I ask what causes central-Asian refugees to risk a dangerous ocean crossing and expensive travel through many non-signatory states to Australia, when there are numerous signatory nations within walking distance (relatively speaking?).

      Maybe because (in the case of Afghans) we’ve spent nearly ten years bombing the crap out of them and telling them how much better life is in our country?

    • Jon says:

      02:21pm | 28/07/10

      The 1951 Refugee Convention is a product of the Cold War environment, and it reflects both European experience of Nazi war-time persecutions and Western political interests as these were perceived at the time. Immediate post-war European displacements had been dealt with on an ad hoc and group basis. Exit restrictions in communist countries meant numbers were low. The Convention criteria could be applied on a case-by-case basis, and ideological kudos gained by providing sanctuary to ‘defectors’ to the ‘free world’.

      One of the most glaring problems is that not all countries are signatories to the convention. This make it flawed and shows the limitations of the UN. It was agreed to in a different time and context. It is no longer suitable, a new agreement is needed, one that all the UN members will sign.

    • Brian Johnson says:

      02:26pm | 28/07/10

      This is a very emotional subject and sometimes we get emotional in the way we express things. I am concerned, however that those who gain access to Australia illegally, no matter how they get here, are provided with access to our legal system. It is my view that the detemrination of refugee status should be made by the UN, and that refugees should be shared amongst all members of the UN, in a safe environment. This does not mean they should be given access to the Australian legal system, to rights enjoyed by Australians because our forefathers fought to protect our borders, our systems, our homes. There are increasing incidents of immigrants voicing opinions about our way of life, about our religious views, about our laws which are contrary to our way of life. If they don’t repsect our way of life, then they need not enjoy the benefits bestowed on the residents of this country because of the systems we have in place. I don’t know why they want to be here if they do not want to respect the systems, laws by which we live.

    • Aaron says:

      02:38pm | 28/07/10

      Genuine questions if someone can help?
      A large part of the debate seems to be about where we process/hold asylum seekers. Is the location relevant? Shouldn’t people who want it to be easier for refugees they see as genuine applicants be arguing for an increase in our humanitarian quota and not necessarily fighting where refugees are processed? Also, is there opposition to TPV’s in principle for refugees and if so, why?

    • iansand says:

      03:50pm | 28/07/10

      The offshore processing is because of Howard’s excision of offshore islands from the Australian migration zone.  The theory was that, even if the refugees reached Ashmore Reef or Christmas Island (which are Australian territory), they had not reached Australia for the purposes of the relevant statutes.  They were therefore, in theory, denied access to resources to contest their rejection as refugees.  As far as I know the ALP have not reversed this sham.

    • James1 says:

      04:10pm | 28/07/10

      I oppose TPVs for personal reasons.  An Iraqi friend of mine came to Australia on a TPV, built a kebab business from scratch, while waiting to get his family over here (he couldn’t due to his TPV).  In April 2004, his wife and two daughters were killed in Fallujah.  In early 2005, he was told that Iraq was now safe and he had to go home.  He was tortured and killed for being a Shiite in 2006.

      That is my reason.

    • AdamC says:

      06:29pm | 28/07/10

      I should imagine the allure of offshore processing is that it allows governments to more effectively deport unsuccessful claimants.

      TPVs are an essential part of any sane asylum regime. Protection isn’t permanent settlement. The TPV system is what ultimately stopped the boats, not any optional extras like offshore processing.

    • Gregg says:

      11:55am | 31/07/10

      Aaron, yes the location, quotas and processing are all relevant.
      1. If you have a look at UNHCR global figures on refugees, about 10M covered by them and 5M by other agencies and associated reporting on them and the ~ 27M internally displaced persons you’ll find that a very large number if not the majority of people will remain adjacent to their home countries so as they can return when their countrry situation is improved and the UNHCR reports do in fact include figures for returnees.
      It is also a generally accepted fact that western $$$$$ go a long way further in helping refugees survive closer to their own countries, cost of living being far less and so for example whereas $100 may not feed a family here for too long, in Afghanistan, Pakistan , Africa or wherever it can keep many families going for a week.
      2. That is also partly the reason for quotas for refugees being resettled by western countries, there is aside from cultural, language and life style changes to be coped with a significant cost and all countries no matter how wealthy they may be considered do have difficulties in meeting their own needs and not just while we have a GFC.
      How often have you read for instance of elderly people dying because of lack of adequate health care and so yes, there is a limit to just how many additional people any country can absorb, especially when there will be limits to how productive those people can readily become.
      3. And processing - would you relish the job of the people who have to decide who the lucky 6000 will be each year from near 50, 000 applicants and that’s just for the government supported refugee places.
      The remainder of the humanitarium program is open to people from refugee centres globally to be sponsored by non government organisations and even individuals and so in addition to the 6000 supported by government for resettlement, the sponsored people will also be supported for resettlement.
      By having a policy [ the removal of TPVs ] encouraging asylum seekers to pay people smugglers they are then exposing themselves to death at sea.
      The ones that do arrive at Christmas Island are then not just an additional load/strain and cost in processing but for more resettlement capacity to be found by the government.
      Hence we are seeing things develop like motels in Brisbane being leased and mining camps in Leonora being used and you really need to consider just what opportunity that will offer for assimilation as against people being sponsored.
      And all this just collectively detracts from this country being able to care for our own.

    • Judy says:

      03:42pm | 28/07/10

      Rex Jones - I actually think you are wrong - to be quite honest I don’t think it has anything to do with their race, but everything to do with their religion - previous refugees have come from countries where the predominant religion does not promote Jihad and look upon non-believers as infidels - they did not have a system of law bound by the religion and as such seemed to assimilate into Australian society quite easily - that is what I feel is the big difference. I for one will admit I am quite nervous that in the future (not in my lifetime but certainly in my children’s and grandchildren’s lifetime) that Australia will become a Muslim country with us non-believers in the minority and having to be ruled by Sharia Law - because I do not honestly think they will be as accommodating as we are. What also needs to be looked at is the way the company who currently holds the Detention tender is working and also to how the staff of that company are being treated by DIAC and by the company itself - as much as I have concern for the refugees I am more concerned about the treatment of my fellow Australians in these circumstances - if you want more information, please feel free to contact me - I have plenty of inside information

    • James1 says:

      04:41pm | 28/07/10

      Perhaps other waves of migrants did settle in, Judy, but they had some issues along the way.  Irish Catholics found it tough in Australia at first, but seem to have settled in nicely.  We have even had Catholic Prime Ministers.  Italians are still having a lot of trouble settling in.  In Innisfail, most Italians still don’t speak English to each other in public, and of course we can not forget the disproportionate number of Italians involved in organised crime.  Give the Muslims time, and they will adjust, just like every other wave of migrants to this country has.  If I were you, I wouldn’t listen to the vocal minority calling for Sharia Law in Australia - that is like judging white American Christians according to the statements made by the Ku Klux Klan.

    • Rex Jones says:

      06:13pm | 28/07/10

      Excellent point James around the Ku Klux Klan argument - a tiny minority of Muslims wish to live by Sharia law. Some people unfortunately think a large proportion of Muslims are fundamentalists, when the opposite is true. Travel to places like Syria and Jordan and you will find some of the most caring, hospitable people on earth.

    • David says:

      03:55pm | 28/07/10

      There’s a really simple way to avoid the phenomenon of ‘boat people’ and drive people-smuggling into bankruptcy, however everyone seems to completely ignore it. However, the solution will never be implemented, because self-interest and an inability for different international to pull together and work for the greater good will put paid to that.

      Why the heck does it take many years, up to ten years some say, for a claim to be processed? With the might of the UN behind the resettlement of refugees, this shouldn’t be the case. A worldwide effort, championed by Australia, to drastically reduce these waiting times for legal asylum claims, is the solution, to dissuade the allure of quick passage by illegal means. Temporary protection visas can be granted to these if govermnments so desire, to speed up the oft-quoted ‘queue’. Australia may not be able to do too much, but we should be focusing on disinfecting the wound, not putting innumerable Band-Aids on the problem.

    • Gregg says:

      12:09pm | 31/07/10

      David, simply put, there is a limit to numbers of refugees which any country can reasonably absorb, a lot of global facts being overlooked by emotion on this issue and I posted the following in response to another post similar to yours.
      The location, quotas and processing are all relevant.
      1. If you have a look at UNHCR global figures on refugees, about 10M covered by them and 5M by other agencies and associated reporting on them and the ~ 27M internally displaced persons you’ll find that a very large number if not the majority of people will remain adjacent to their home countries so as they can return when their countrry situation is improved and the UNHCR reports do in fact include figures for returnees.
      It is also a generally accepted fact that western $$$$$ go a long way further in helping refugees survive closer to their own countries, cost of living being far less and so for example whereas $100 may not feed a family here for too long, in Afghanistan, Pakistan , Africa or wherever it can keep many families going for a week.
      2. That is also partly the reason for quotas for refugees being resettled by western countries, there is aside from cultural, language and life style changes to be coped with a significant cost and all countries no matter how wealthy they may be considered do have difficulties in meeting their own needs and not just while we have a GFC.
      How often have you read for instance of elderly people dying because of lack of adequate health care and so yes, there is a limit to just how many additional people any country can absorb, especially when there will be limits to how productive those people can readily become.
      3. And processing - would you relish the job of the people who have to decide who the lucky 6000 will be each year from near 50, 000 applicants and that’s just for the government supported refugee places.
      The remainder of the humanitarium program is open to people from refugee centres globally to be sponsored by non government organisations and even individuals and so in addition to the 6000 supported by government for resettlement, the sponsored people will also be supported for resettlement.
      By having a policy [ the removal of TPVs ] encouraging asylum seekers to pay people smugglers they are then exposing themselves to death at sea.
      The ones that do arrive at Christmas Island are then not just an additional load/strain and cost in processing but for more resettlement capacity to be found by the government.
      Hence we are seeing things develop like motels in Brisbane being leased and mining camps in Leonora being used and you really need to consider just what opportunity that will offer for assimilation as against people being sponsored.
      And all this just collectively detracts from this country being able to care for our own.
      There are in fact also many fee paying skilled immigrants who come here each year and eventually return home because they struggle to find work.
      Australia with its relative isolation from global markets, asian low labor cost manufacturing to compete with and water issues do give Australia something of a unique set of conditions vastly different from more populated continents where rainfall is regularly greater.
      We’ve always got to look at the much bigger picture for the future wellbeing of all of us you could say.

    • LFG says:

      03:55pm | 28/07/10

      So, how do these people who have never had ID get from Afghanistan to Pakistan and Indonesia? They don’t, off course. They destroy their IDs on advice from people smugglers: it make it easier to pull the wool over Australian Immigration’s eyes (the tickers and flippers). But, who is going to believe an immigration lawyer, anyway? This woman has a huge vested interest in telling pulling the wool over immigration’s eyes, and the eyes of the rest of us. It will not work, Ms. O’Brien!

    • James says:

      08:52pm | 28/07/10

      And what would her vested interest be? She gets paid the same whether they stay or whether they go. It is up to the apllicant themselves to decide if they appeal a decision and then it is up to a judge to determine if they hear it? As a lawyer she would earn a lot more money if she worked for a big corporation then for a NGO so what financial interest does she have?

    • Peasant #3167 says:

      08:25pm | 28/07/10

      How can you possibly do a “comprehensive security check” on someone with no ID? How do we know these men are not Tamil Tigers, the people who invented the suicide bomb?  Sri Lanka is no longer an oppressed state according to the UN. If they feel threatened they should go to their local authorities. And tell me how the hell a Sri Lanken can find US$10,000 when the average pay is US$1,000 pa?

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      10:20pm | 28/07/10

      This whole boat people thingy has been going on for a long time now. Since 1788 to be sure. Now I don’t know why the people all go on about the people arriving by boat unannounced.

      In 1788, the people who inhabited these lands made a very big protest to the English boat people who arrived here and basically told them to go back, and guess what!. The boat people invaders didn’t listen to them and turned around and not only stole their lands they had lived on for thousands of years but shot them down as well, and the rest is history.

      Compared to those human rights violations todays arrivals are nothing. Yes everyone your wonderful country was started by genocide of races of tribal people called Aboriginals. They have been telling everyone to go away for over 200 years and no one even listened to them. So if we want to whinge about it, first go and talk to them. and you know what they’ll say and you know what will be done for them, nothing. So let’s get over it and see that we have nothing to complain about.

    • Paul Horn says:

      08:53am | 29/07/10

      So please tell us when you are on the next boat out. I’ll turn up at the port and wave a hanky with tears of gratitiude as your boat disappears over the horizon.

    • HK says:

      09:26am | 29/07/10

      So…. this is an argument not to let them in ..right?

    • Kordez says:

      09:32am | 29/07/10

      @Youdy beaudy, one of the biggest problems with your argument here is that Australia was invaded during the late 1700’s. Australia didn’t have a governing body and was undeveloped, in today’s environment there’s a very real risk the same thing will happen and we are prepared to defend ourselves if that occurs.
      However those rocking up in boats aren’t seeking to invade our country, they are fleeing from their own because it’s shit. I have no issue supporting human rights and giving anyone the opportunity for a better quality of life but these dudes rock up unannounced by way of people smuggling and seek a free ride at our expense.
      There are plenty of other ways that someone can apply for sanctuary within Australia and the systems in place would ensure that they prove that status before being accepted.
      I can’t enter a country without my identity, these people shouldn’t be able to either.

    • Lin says:

      12:09am | 29/07/10

      Brynn, looking at the questions you raised with your ‘rebuttal’, I think you owe us some answers, this time no contradictions.

    • Michael says:

      01:10am | 29/07/10

      It seems that this is a very passionate topic to discuss from Australians. The same Australians that have and most likely still do sing the Australian Anthem, and some who would swear by it’s importance to joining our nation and all of its peoples together. The very Australian Anthem that includes the line: “beneath our radiant southern cross, we’ve boundless plains to share…”. We are lead by the Queen still, there’s been referendums to change this but we still choose not to. The reason for this? Our nation began by a population of convicts transported on boats. The, let’s not forget, are not the first people’s of our nation by any means however are they? No. The Indigenous Australians are those that first inhabited this continent. Then White Australians, then the White Australians wanted skilled-migrants, then they complained about loss of jobs even though they asked for the migrants in the first place.

      Now we have a miniscule amount coming from less than desirable means and we’re all up in arms - nevermind the fact that this continent is not our home to control. And what do we have now? We need more GPs. We need upgraded health systems and more nurses and more skilled-Australians. We treat our incoming students like less than citizens even though it’s their very knowledge we require. We look to countries for their skilled-migrants because we need their knowledge and their services, and it’s about time we stopped being selfish and realise that they have needs as well. Like basic needs, for instance, safety and security.

      Above all else, it is about time we realised that we could spend years discussing all the details of refugees but if the tables were turned - and let’s face it, safety is never certain - and we needed asylum, we were refugees… we would expect to be taken in without a second thought.

      When it comes down to it if you’re not treating others how you would like to be treated then there there is no human decency there, there is not even common sense.

    • dexter says:

      06:31am | 29/07/10

      This is illegal immigration by many people the vast majority of whom who do not share our values, will not assimilate into the broader community. A hard line is what is required to deter these people - like it or not.

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      08:07am | 29/07/10

      I don’t mind having an Afghani Family or a Sri Lankan family living next door to me. They are really very good people who have strong family values like me. Would I leave them out in the rain with nothing after they asked for my help with their lives, No.

      It would be better to go outside and see a friendly face than my current australian neighbours who don’t even bother and turn their noses up. I’m sorry everyone, I cant really get into this wonderful Aussie thing we have going here. I don’t think we are as wonderful as we think we are and we should have a good look at ourselves.


      If people need help then we have a moral obligation to help them. We can’t accuse people of being bad before the fact. Even a Murderer is entitled to a fair trial. We are not perfect ourselves. Sure there are some who work us over to get into Australia but it’s probably only a small amount compared with those who are genuine. I think we should help re establish the lives of those who are running from tyranny not practice tyranny upon them, just because they are different by culture or skin colour.

    • Kordez says:

      09:22am | 29/07/10

      @Youdy beaudy, murderers are not welcomed into Australia. I still fail to see how race has become part of this debate, Australia is not deemed racist because they want to maintain border security.
      If America or the UK were in the same position, we would treat them exactly the same way as we do the current mob rocking up for a free ride.

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      10:03am | 29/07/10

      Kordez, I think race has a lot to do with it. Sorry about my opinion if it upset you. America and UK have a lot of problems with race and culture don’t they.?. I would put it to you and others that if the boat people happened to be white and christian then they would be let in much more easily.

      What Australians should do is put all our useless politicians in the detention centres and let the people get on with their lives.

    • Kordez says:

      04:18pm | 29/07/10

      @Youdy beaudy, it would seem you are blinded by your own opinion. My previous post outlined that Australia would not treat others differently if they were boating to our shores. My examples were UK and USA citizens (if they were fleeing.)
      At the moment we just happen to have Muslims arriving from less fortunate countries. Why should an American be smuggled into our country and receive a free ride? The argument remains the same, but feel good, sympathetic twits will start saying “Australia has always hated America and they deserve to be here just as much as us…”
      Well Youdy beaudy, they don’t. They have done nothing to ensure safe passage to our country, they have failed to adhere to our policies that protect us, they attempt to sneak into our country bypassing any processing, they will black mail us at sea by blowing up or sinking their vessels and it is alleged that most if not all intentionally rid themselves of identities to receive crisis allowances at the expense of the Australia tax payers.

      It should never be easy to become an Australian, unless your born here or intend to play a part in our nations gain.

    • Wayne says:

      11:01am | 29/07/10

      Brynn O’brien, if you REALLY do think that everyone who comes to Australia, either by lane or boat is really honest when they claim to be a refugee or anything else for that matter, you need to watch ALOT more of tv’s Border Security.

    • Mark says:

      11:05am | 29/07/10

      Hi Brynn,

      Thank you for taking the time to explain this information and hope you answer some of my questions which concern points that politicians do not seem to address directly. 

      Here are my questions:
      (i) In a hospital we have a triage nurse to prioritise the various cases in terms of need and seriousness.  Is there a similar thing for asylum seeker claim i.e. are there various gradiations of risk, or is it binary in that you are either in or out?

      (ii) Do asylum seekers that make it to Australia (onshore processing) get priority processing over someone that is lucky enough to get selected for offshore processing in a UNHCR refugee camp somewhere around the world? 

      (iii) By paying people smugglers to get them to Australia, are asylum seekers effectively guaranteeing that the claim gets processed or alternatively expediting their claim? 
      I suspect this is what people mean by jumping the que.  Is this fair?  What about those refugees that don’t have the money to pay people smugglers?  Does this not change the dynamic from one based on need to one based on capacity to pay?

      (iv) Given that we have a quota for refugeee places, for every onshore claim processed, does that mean that there is one less place for offshore claims?

      (v) Finally, and I concede this is a loaded question, the refugee convention was developed in response to Jewish refugees refused asylum during the holocaust.  The refugees that I think could come close to their situation are Rwandan Tutsis, Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica and refugees from Darfur - all have suffered from genocidal policies.  Yet we don’t see many of these people on a boat to Australia - granted that Europe is closer, but my point is that the most maligned and needy will not have the means (money, links to organised crime) to get to a 3rd country but will most like be located in a refugee camp in a neighbouring country, competing for finite refugee place to Australia.  Maybe the problem is not que jumping as people call it, but the fact that there isn’t a que?  What are your thoughts on creating a que where the most needy are given priority.

      Just for the record, I would ban onshore processing, triple the refugee intake and take an equal number from each UNHCR refugee camp around the world.

    • Fred says:

      01:34am | 30/07/10

      Mark, great questions. I think a sound case can be made out for the attempted genocide of the Hazara by the Pashtun Taliban for ethnic and religious reasons etc Recent reports of random roadside beheadings of Hazara and the same vilification on radio in Kabul last week suggests it continues and is on the increase.

      I agree that Australia could and should take more refugees(confirmed) from UNHCR registration and processing centres, especially in our region, starting with Jakarta and Kuala Lumpur. I think Australia contributes signicantly towards the cost of these operations. The refugees however are not in camps. Some are locked up in detention centres, including ones our taxpayers paid for,  and others “live” in the community for years with subsistence help from the International Organisation for Migration, which I understand is funded by the Australian Government. Refugees are not entitled to work, and children are not allowed to go to school. Fast tracking these refugees would make sense, and stop them from risking their lives on boats. The numbers of refugees we take must be flexible and relate to the crises in source countries. The current wave includes significant numbers of Tamils for the first time, because of the end of the civil war and the retribution and continuing human rights abuses in Sri Lanka.

    • Gavin says:

      11:34am | 29/07/10

      Remember what happened to the traditional inhabitants of this land when they dare questioned our settler ancestors as to their entry and occupation of this land, and in many ways contravening the lores and traditions this land had before settlement? They got shot. Next time somebody says the indigenous community should “just get over it”, I would be interested to hear their views on boat people.

    • franklin says:

      11:58am | 29/07/10

      Ms Hirsi Ali, arguably one of the most high-profile asylum-seekers in the world, believes the 1951 United Nations convention on refugees is out of date and unable to cope with the scale of migration.

      http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/hirsi-ali-urges-refugee-testing/story-fn59niix-1225896772924

      Ms Hirsi Ali said it was futile for countries to attempt to establish the bona fides of would-be refugees, not least because many asylum-seekers will say anything in order to qualify for asylum. She said refugee claims should be rigorously assessed on the applicant’s ability to make a contribution to the host nation and to accept its values and culture. “Everybody lies,” she told The Australian.

      Ms Hirsi Ali speaks from first-hand experience. She successfully sought asylum in The Netherlands in 1992, escaping a marriage arranged by her father against her will. At the time, she told the Dutch authorities she was fleeing the war in Somalia but later publicly admitted she had lied.

    • Brynn O'Brien says:

      12:09pm | 29/07/10

      Dear all

      Thank you for taking the time out to comment. There are some great questions posted here. You deserve answers to them.

      Here’s a deal: if there’s interest - for as long as The Punch will have me leading up to the election - I will try to answer the most important and most frequently asked questions.

      Please be patient - articles on The Punch max out at around 1,000 words - clearly not long enough to answer all of the legitimate questions here. I reckon I could write 10 posts on this issue and you’d still have more questions for me.

      So if I don’t address every conceivable issue in detail as quickly as you would like please don’t assume I’m lying and/or partisan. I’ve got no interest in being either. I’m just trying to bring some facts and clarity to a debate that’s been shrouded in cynical politics and misinformation for way too long.

      I’ve had a good chuckle about the suggestion of some posters have that I’m raking in the big bucks representing asylum seekers. In actual fact, most of the work I have done with asylum seekers has been unpaid - that’s right - free, voluntary, pro bono. No asylum seeker client has ever paid me for my work - in fact it would be against the law for me to accept payment from a client because I am a registered non-profit migration agent.

      For the work I have done on Christmas Island I have been paid a small amount (nothing near what I used to earn as a commercial lawyer!) working on contract for a non-profit organisation which is funded to do this work under the Immigration Advice and Application Assistance Scheme (which has bipartisan federal support).

      I don’t do this job for the money. I’m not paid for writing these opinion pieces either, so before you have a go at me for having a vested financial interest in these matters, please think again. I do these things because I believe in justice, in the rule of law, in facts. And I’d like to think that most of Australia is with me on that.

      Thanks again for your questions.

      Cheers
      Brynn

    • Rationalist says:

      01:32pm | 29/07/10

      So, Abdul had time to grab 10,000 bucks but not his ID? When Asylum seekers FLY to singapore, they are not detained at changi airport for arriving with no passport? You say asylum seekers have no protection in Indonesia… are you saying they at risk for their lives in Indonesia? What does the Indonesian government say about this?  There are MANY reasons to doubt undocumented persons attempting to land on Australian shores, and all are perfectly rational.

      You get up in the morning with a singular puprose: getting people into Australia. It is reasonable then, that you would be emotionally invested in your work, and that’s where this article comes from. It’s all about tears and hugs and “oh your poor thing”, not reason and logic. You said as much when you mentioned you believe their stories simply because they arrive in a dodgy boat.

    • James says:

      04:05pm | 29/07/10

      I don’t know the stats but I thought that the vast majority of illegal immigrants in Australia (from memory of reading an article over 90%) are actually people who have overstayed their visa (student or working holiday (read backpacker). Many are of European/British backgrounds.  I wonder why the people commenting about illegal immigrants coming in and staying when “real Australians are living in poverty” aren’t up in arms about them?  Could it be because it’s all an excuse and it’s really about race.

      Putting aside the how they get here issues, the fact is the numbers coming in are tiny compared to the number of migrants who come here legally and even the number of “illegal immigrants”.  So I just don’t know why this issue gets so much airplay when there are much more important thinga to be worrying about.

    • Kordez says:

      04:28pm | 29/07/10

      @James, because the money would be spent better elsewhere. It really is as simple as that.

      Overstay is a bad argument, tourists are not illegal immigrants when they enter our country. I’d be happy to see 100% of tourists overstay and be labelled illegal immigrants, at least we have obtained evidence of who they are and where they are from.

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      09:42pm | 29/07/10

      So Kordez. What is your suggestion of how to deal with the so called problem.? Give us your spin on it. You seem to know a lot, what would you do?.

    • Gregg says:

      02:50am | 31/07/10

      Pretty simple really as Labor revoked the Temporary Protection Visas and that just sent a message that if you get to Australian waters it’s permanent residency.
      To stop the attempts you re-instate TPVs and use Nauru to house the temporary overflow from Christmas Island .
      You also allow Pakistani officials access for interviews for they want to do something about people smuggling at their end, where it starts.

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      01:56am | 30/07/10

      You all worry about nothing! No one is trying to take over the country, If they do we’ll send Kordez out to kill them all. As for me i don’t care how many boat people end up here. Pretty hard not to run into us if you’re sailing along having a nice day.

      Stop the negative propaganda for god sake. Get a Grip. Jesus, a bloody side worse things can happen than being attacked by boat people.

      Every one could get cancer and high blood pressure from worrying about nothing. I mean, the Doctors surgeries are full, the hospitals are full. Why is that?. Well, with all the increased cost of living and pressures put on the people by the government it’s no wonder we are one of the most sick people on the planet.

      This is the problem with Australia. Governments have sold us all down the sink. We have come to the point where it’s too expensive even to live here any more. Not even worth having a life. Where did our lives go. Where did the Australian Dream go. Will we ever get it back. Well, what can we say about that I wonder?!. The Boat people are no problem compared to the other shit that’s going down in the Great Land Down Under, you know the one we pretend it is. Lets get a grip on reality and have a good look at our life imprisonment shall we. It’s a life sentence with a Death Penalty at the end, and that’s all it is. Nothing bigger than that and that’s the truth. So go and worry your lives away if you want, it won’t get anyone anywhere but on the sick list.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      03:09am | 30/07/10

      Everyone has the right to seek asylum from persecution in other countries.

      It is irrelevant how they do that, if they are rich or poor, if they sail, fly or drop in from mars.

      There is no offence and under the law they have to be here to apply for asylum.

      All those who continually bleat about “real refugees in camps” didn’t read the asylum facts piece from the parliamentary library where it says that refugees in other countries have no right to go to any other country.

      It is voluntary that we “accept” a mere 0.001% of the world’s refugees from “camps’, except we don’t you know.

      We only “accept” a few thousand who can prove they will be killed, if they have family here and no other country will have them.

      In other words our so-called humanitarian program is utterly inhuman and has no consideration for human rights.

      It’s all on the DIAC website for the world to see.

      Now all you frigging haters, just be silent.  I know many Afghans, Iraqis, Iranians and Palestinians and they are brilliant people.

    • Gregg says:

      01:34pm | 30/07/10

      Do you only accept what is in the parliamentary library Marilyn and even then it is only an authors piece isn’t it, just like UNHCR reports
      http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/page?page=49e486eb6 and you can find one for Pakistan too.
      Why do you want to refer to people prepared to look at the larger picture as frigging haters?
      Is it your own lack of understanding? and if so would it not be better for you to improve your knowledge.
      Or is it just bias?

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      08:46am | 30/07/10

      If the Government doesn’t send out the Coast Guard to collect them off the various drop off points and just leave it alone, then because there is no one there arriving to take them to detention then they will just either float around or maybe turn around and go back to indonesia. Although this would allow other natural forces to come into effect as regards their safety it may eventually lead somewhere regarding the control of illegal immigrants. People will not get on a boat if they know that no one will be there to save them. That will put a totally different slant on it.

      Then if they want to land in the North West they will have to combat the Crocs, a problem with no water and food, and a long walk and still detention ahead if caught, but many will perish if they follow that route. I think the thought of that would be a deterrent.

      I have nothing against Boat People at all. I try to put myself in their place so what I have written above seems contradictory but it’s not about that. We all have a right to float on the ocean in a boat if we want,and arrive somewhere if we want. For those people it must be very scary in particular if they have children with them. The question is that, ” If we leave them alone and don’t run around after it all and pay no interest, will that deter people coming here in that way.” I think it is all totally blown up out of proportion. It is unfortunate that people suffer out of all this. Also a minimum sentence of say 20 years in jail for the People Smugglers would surely deter them from even considering running a People Smuggling business.

      I agree with Marilyn Shepherd who wrote above that many of these peoples are lovely and it is a shame that we can’t put our Propaganda and fear aside and help them, and it is only a very small proportion of the world refugees that come here, most are going into europe. So we can either just be evil ourselves like their tormentors or stand for something. I mean we Australians are always blurting to the World about how in this world we are the greatest at everything and the most compassionate. So if that’s true lets enact that instead of doing the opposite. That is a contradiction in itself.

    • franklin says:

      11:27am | 30/07/10

      It is not simply a question of fear or prejudice, it is a question of fairness. The great majority of the asylum seekers on Christmas Island are able bodied men coming from Afghanistan. They are able to pay people smugglers many thousands of dollars (newspaper articles cite a cost of $10,000 to $15,000 per person) although the per capita income of Afghanistan is around $800 per year or about $2 per day. In contrast, the most desperate refugees in the world are single women and children living in squalid refugee camps in Africa and Asia. They live in abject poverty and are forced to deal with hostile locals, an almost total lack of economic opportunities, frequent gender based violence, high rates of crime and food shortages. They are obviously unable to pay many thousands of dollars to people smugglers. It greatly offends the sense of fairness of many Australians that able bodied men paying many thousands of dollars to people smugglers can claim places in Australia’s refugee resettlement program ahead of those in much greater need. The places available in Australia’s refugee resettlement program should be allotted based on need, not financial ability to pay people smugglers. I wonder if Brynn O’Brien has ever considered visiting a squalid refugee camp in Africa or Asia and offering her services there to the destitute and desperate UNHCR refugees there who cannot afford to pay many thousands of dollars to people smugglers.

    • franklin says:

      11:30am | 30/07/10

      The following newspaper article describes the story of Habiba Hosseini. Her parents fled the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan with their children in the early 1980s for Iran and lived an uneasy existence as refugees in a hostile host country. Habiba fled a forced and abusive marriage in Iran with her teenage daughters to her brother’s home in Afghanistan, only to be told her daughters must return to their father. In 2006 she and her two daughters arrived penniless and terrified in Pakistan and have since been waiting in a refugee queue for an offshore humanitarian visa to Australia. The UNHCR classified Habiba and her daughters as women at risk. Habiba and her daughters are among a long queue of refugees living in hiding and penury in Pakistan as they go through the long process required by countries such as Australia, Canada and the US for asylum-seeker visas.

      http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25451198-25837,00.html

      The following online article describes the story of Norooz Ali Iqbal. Norooz’s family owned a gold shop in Kabul. He felt that life in Afghanistan was hard, the family was threatened by unrest and ethnic tensions and the growing strength of the Taliban. He and his wife Adila had given up on their homeland and dreamed of living in Australia. He decided to leave Afghanistan and was able to apply for a passport, buy a plane ticket and obtain a visa at the Indonesian Embassy in Kabul. He did not need to wait in the long queue of refugees for an offshore humanitarian visa to Australia. Most unfortunately his journey to Australia ended in tragedy.

      http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2474952.htm

      There are limited numbers of refugee resettlement places made available by Australia each year. Some asylum seekers like Norooz can arrive via people smugglers and in that way claim a resettlement place, most asylum seekers like Habiba cannot. The question for Brynn O’Brien and other refugee advocates is who should take precedence for the scare resettlement places available, those most in need of resettlement in the queue of refugees, or those that have substantial financial resources to pay people smugglers.

    • franklin says:

      11:39am | 30/07/10

      As a lawyer Brynn would be very aware that the classification of an asylum seeker as a refugee is a very subjective process. In the end the process often comes down to whether an asylum seeker’s claims are to be believed or not believed, and in nearly all cases without any real evidence at all.

      The problem in assessing claims of asylum seekers is that it cannot be determined without doubt what has actually happened to them. All enquiries after the arrival of an asylum seeker involve assessments as to whether or not the story of persecution they present is believable. The immigration department can make inquiries offshore to test the story, but this is time consuming and expensive and will not always resolve the matter.

      While the law says the onus of proof in a refugee status application is on the applicant, this has in practice evolved into applicants challenging the Australian Government to disprove their stories. As very few stories from dysfunctional third world countries such as Afghanistan country can be conclusively and individually disproved the storytellers get the benefit of the doubt and so gain refugee status.

      The story of Abdul that Bryn presented could not be disproved within the assessment framework, and as a result he gained refugee status, but was Abdul’s story actually checked and verified and was there any real evidence to verify the story he presented ?

      For many years asylum seekers getting on boats to Australia with an intention to claim asylum really only need to present a prepared story that is an effective distillation of the stories of previously successful applicants. The story has to be moving enough to engage the 1951 Convention protection obligations, but at the same time vague enough to be uncheckable and unverifiable. The further an asylum seeker is from their home country, the more difficult it is to confirm the facts of their story.

      The entire refugee assessment process for asylum seekers arriving via people smugglers is flawed by error and guesswork, which greatly works to the asylum seekers advantage, and results in abnormally high acceptance rates.

    • Gregg says:

      01:02pm | 30/07/10

      ‘’ Public anxiety about asylum seekers is exploited every day by cynical politicians chasing votes. I hope that if I use my experience as an immigration lawyer to answer your questions, you might reconsider your views about asylum seekers. “
      PART1.
      I am pleased that you have made a return on the topic Brynn, but have you ever considered that you may also need to look at the Asylum Seeker issue from other than an Immigration Lawyer’s perspective?”
      ” Who decides that these people are genuine refugees? How do they decide? “
      I’ve not got any issue with the refugee status assessment under International Convention/ Australian Law and respect that Immigration Officials have a difficult task of great enormity on their hands and of course they will look for any inconsistencies and cross checking or interrogation as you call it will no doubt vary on a case by case basis and if that is done by Immigration officials against credible country information, come on now do you not already see some flaws emerging?
      Is not a large portion of Afghanistan still in dispute as to who has control and is their main crop not Opium poppies?, there being conflicting stories on whether the Taliban actually support that or not.
      The security link you posted is just the basic Immi site info and does not tell the whole story

      I participate with many would be emigrants in helping them understand the immigration process and if you are aware of the designation of High Risk and Low Risk countries you would also be aware that it is an agency external to Immigration that does security checks for people from high risk countries, it being ASIO I understand, the immigration process for those people being considerably longer and there has been media reports in recent times of ASIO resources being stretched by more asylum seeker arrivals such that the processing times for fee paying immigrants has blown out. 
      The total processing time for fee paying immigrants in skilled and family stream areas can be well over a year and in fact sevral years for many and that is for people who have document just about what brand of toothpaste their deceased granduncle used.

      ” Why do people come without documentation? “
      And yes there may be many reasons why people may not have identification and do you have any choice but to believe Abdul? and the many like him.
      Herein commences some degree of credibility being questionable:
      Your Abdul is fleeing his village because the Taliban will kill him.
      How close are they?
      Is he fleeing on foot or how? And from where exactly and the route he’ll have to take?
      If he was out in Taliban territory would he escape?
      Will he go via Kabul which is very close to the Pakistani border as are other cities?
      Does it all really add up for you Brynn?

      ” What countries do Afghan asylum seekers pass though before coming to Australia? How do they get there? Why don’t they claim protection?
      Generally, Afghan refugees will travel a route through Pakistan (by land), to Malaysia or Singapore (by plane), then to Indonesia (by small boat or plane). None of these transit countries are signatories to the Refugees Convention. They offer no protection to people like Abdul. “

      Have you actually checked what refugee centres are in Afghanistan itself let alone Pakistan? For on UNHCR latest report there is close to 2 Million refugees in the latter.
      http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/page?page=49e486eb6
      http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/page?page=49e487016
      There have been recent reports of Pakistani officials wanting to interview people smugglers/asylum seekers to crack down on the trade.
      And more credibility or lets say incredibility
      Do you think it is so easy to fly into Singapore or Malaysia these days without a passport and for many countries still a visa being required?
      Most airlines will not even issue a boarding pass without the appropriate documentation.

      ” How do asylum seekers pay smugglers?
      People cobble together enough money by exhausting their life savings, selling their property, even their mother’s jewellery – they are desperate. While most Afghans I have represented are poor, people seem to forget rich people can be persecuted too. Money cannot protect people who are targeted by the Taliban. In fact having money, land or a successful business might encourage the Taliban to target a Hazara person. “

      But didn’t your smiling at you Abdul flee without time to collect anything?
      People with a plan in mind will likely seek to cobble their money together anyhow they can be it legal or not I’d imagine.

    • Gregg says:

      01:20pm | 30/07/10

      ” Public anxiety about asylum seekers is exploited every day by cynical politicians chasing votes. I hope that if I use my experience as an immigration lawyer to answer your questions, you might reconsider your views about asylum seekers. “
      PART 2.
      ” Why don’t they join the queue?
      There is no orderly queue. If they apply to the UNHCR in Indonesia they wait up to 10 years for resettlement, during which time they have no rights and no protection. Once you read the facts you might think twice about calling someone a ‘queue jumper’. “
      The facts you have there Brynn is a report from someone and so what have they really based it on?
      I’d tend to have much more faith in UNHCR figures and the pitiful scenes we see from refugee centres from around the planet.
      http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/page?page=49e486eb6
      http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/page?page=49e487016
      Have you read the UNHCR factual reports Brynn?
      And yet herein you get to another credibility or crunch time for you may want to ask yourself what is the difference between a refugee and an asylum seeker?
      Brief Facts [ from DIAC ]:
      1. Australia has a budget of 6000 refugees per year out of a total 13,750 Humanitarium Program and yes that leaves in theory 7,750 for asylum seekers.
      http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/60refugee.htm
      2. Have a look at Immigration fact sheet No.60 and you’ll see what the breakdown has been for offshore and onshore protection as it is referred to as in the table.
      The offshore asylum seekers are still refugees but they will be processed through the humanitarian program if they have sponsors.

      So to help you answer the question on what is the difference between a people smuggled boat arrivee and someone processed offshore as a refugee or sponsored, ir’s quite simple - $$$$$$$$$$$$ 
      And yes, you and the likes of Senator Evans can believe there is no queue and it is not as though there is one at a ticket box.
      But somewhere close to 50,000 p.a refugee applications for 6000 places and then others that may have been sponsored is just really a drop in the bucket of the global refugee/displaced persons scenario and though you can hold to your view Brynn, mine is that the $$$$$ is allowing the boat arrivals to float to the top you could say.
      Is that the Aussie fair go approach?

      ” How do you know Abdul wasn’t lying? How do we know you aren’t lying? “
      I do not think for a moment Brynn that you would lie but I do know and you likely know too that there is no way of knowing the full truth of all the Abduls’ situations.
      And from what you have in your article, there is still possibly quite a bit you can study up on.

      ” How can Australia’s facilities and infrastructure deal with boat people?
      Infrastructure is indeed an important issue for a growing Australia. But linking ‘boat people’ with ‘population sustainability’ is like linking exposed breasts to seismic shifts in the earth’s crust. This infographic might redistribute your concerns. ”
      Brynn with the breasts, you do need to look a bit deeper me thinks for
      1. Australia has on average 120 refugees arriving week in week out, the 6000 a year and a number the government has elected it can help resettle.
      2. For others in that 13,750, the reasoning behind sponsorship is obvious and the sponsors are committed to settling them in.
      Now we’re already seeing that large groups of asylum seeking boat arrives are having to be located in places as diverse as former mining camps and Brisbane motels
      Why? and it’s because the numbers are outside of what the system has been able to cope with, the 6000 planned for.
      Do you not for a moment consider that there are far more resources needed at every step from arrival via boats than what there would be with the more orderly approach of a planned refugee program and sponored people?
      Take for instance your own trip to Christmas Island for starters.

    • Gregg says:

      01:27pm | 30/07/10

      ‘’ Public anxiety about asylum seekers is exploited every day by cynical politicians chasing votes. I hope that if I use my experience as an immigration lawyer to answer your questions, you might reconsider your views about asylum seekers. “
      PART3.
      ” What about Australian values? Will refugees uphold them? “
      I would hope so and despite some problems already, only time will tell.

      And I would hope that you too Brynn will see that as a society we should deal with the total humanitarium program in as orderly a way as possible for if not there is every possibility of a more chaotic situation.
      For how many will be too many?
      People are persecuted in many countries and so will we reject those from China, Burma, [ even India has some violent areas, and Pakistan also where people live in fear ], North Korea, several African nations, Latin America and Mexico has about the highest murder rate going, and South Africa also having the dual problems of high violence and greatest numbers of asylum seekers of any country.

      If we say yep, get here by boat and tell us a plausible story, that’s a start to you being able to stay, who will we turn away?
      There certainly needs to be a process that supports the global UNHCR approach and just as sticking people out on Nauru is not a good solution nor is Timor.
      Nauru byw we should not forget was used as an interim measure before Christmas Island was established.
      The Labor government revoked Temporary Protection Visas and as much as people may want to have their heads in the sand, that was part of being akin to the welcome mat going out again.
      Do you not think Brynn that there are many young people in places like Afghanistan or Pakistan that can find out what goes down this end?, the Internet being otherwise known as the WWW.
      There could be a few more Abduls right now having read the Punch and saying hmmmm, we can charm the pants off that one! and whomever else it takes to get into Australia.

    • Harquebus says:

      04:18pm | 31/07/10

      Thankfully, Brynn O’Brien is a minority and we don’t have to worry too much about what she says or thinks.

    • pat joseph says:

      05:29pm | 02/08/10

      The writer of this article admits that people have been waiting in Indonesia for 10 years for resettlements so it is understandable they try to jump the queue. Understandable yes, fair no! There are many refugees in Thai Burma border camps who have been processed by the United Nations and been waiting for years for a country to take them in. I say let these people who have followed the processes and been waiting years, not lose out to queue jumpers.

      The Democratic Labor Party has proposed that we do a 2for 1 deal with those who run the refugee camps such as Thai Burma. For every one asylum seeker coming by boat we escort back to e.g. Thai Burma ( and who goes to the back of the queue) we take two UN processed refugees. The people smuggling trade would end as noone would pay to get sent to the back of a queue. We would not have to worry about people drowning at sea in substandard boats.
      http://www.dlp.org.au
      I want Australia to do more for refugees, as in increase the quota, but I say let’s be fair to those who have been waiting for years (because they followed the procecesses and/or didn’t have the money to pay to be smuggled here)

    • Gregg says:

      12:21pm | 03/08/10

      Well Pat, aside from some reactions of Demo who no doubt, there’ll be many who feel it is not a topic for deals but as you say there’s a process, a process that has turned into a fiasco courtesy in large part to Labor revoking TPVs and that having sent a clear message of the welcome mat perhaps not being out but come on over anyway.

      Aside from the refugee camps on the Thai borders there are 15M about the globe and so lets not also forget the starving and mutilated mothers and children of famine and violence in Africa, probably the worst off of all when it comes to state of refugees.

      There’s about 2M refugees in Pakistan, close to the Afghanisatan border and Pakistan itself will have many people affected by disatrous flooding at the moment, already over a 1000 dead reported and worst in their recorded history, so non refugees and refugees there and the 27M other displaced persons about the planet are all in dire straits.

      It is noble to suggest we should be doing more for the refugees and that can mean a number of things for the cost of resettling just one in a western country could be many fold what the cost of support is in a country close to their origin, something the UN recognises and also that many refugees do not apply for resettlement because of a hope and desire that the situation in their homeland will be such that they can return home and so to do so.

      The numbers of refugees and other sponsored humanitarium program people totalling about 14,000/year may be a drop in the total bucket but that 14,000 may need english lessons, development of skills for employment and then housing and feeding etc. so it all adds up to what is a reasonable number to be absorbed when we already have basic services often overloaded and people who have worked here for decades and paid taxes not having the easiest of lives, waiting for elective surgery, dental care and often unable to afford a reasonable standard of living.

    • franklin says:

      07:13pm | 03/08/10

      In her previous article Brynn stated that Abdul needed protection because he was persecuted by the Taliban for his political opinion – “his unshakeable conviction that the girls in his village had a right to education”.

      Perhaps Brynn and other refugee advocates could ponder on what has happened to those girls in the village - were they ever able to leave the dysfunctional third world country that Afghanistan is and settle in an affluent western country as Abdul has done ?  And do those girls now have access to social security, education and the many other advantages of living in an affluent western country that Abdul now has ? 

      The following online article tells the story of Aisha who was terribly persecuted but was unable to pay many thousands of dollars to people smugglers to leave Afghanistan to seek refuge in an affluent western country as Abdul did.

      http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007238,00.html

      Brynn stated that as she listened to Abdul’s story she was humbled by the courage he had shown, inspired by the incredible risks he had taken to stand up for the people who he believed were the most vulnerable in his country - women. Perhaps Brynn could also be humbled by the courage shown by the following women who do not run away but stay and stand up for the rights of women of Afghanistan.

      http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2007161_2170313,00.html

      It is rather ironic that Abdul now lives in an affluent western country after the story of standing up for the rights of Afghani women that he presented for refugee assessment was sufficient for him to be granted refugee status in Australia, while those very same women are still in Afghanistan suffering continued persecution. Why are those women not the ones to find refuge in Australia ?

    • Chico Guerrera says:

      07:19pm | 23/05/11

      “But by far the most common reason for why people don’t bring identification is because they flee without warning to escape danger. “

      Horseshit. They do it so they can lie about their age, it speeds up the process and allows them to invite their parents in. Another sucker that falls for this nonsense.

      They are 99.9% economic migrants, simple as, and most of them will do nothing but take, take, take and undermine the Australian way of life.

    • michael says:

      03:30pm | 12/09/11

      I have always believed we should process asylum seekers in Australia, I am from the left of politics, I now believe I was wrong, since the Malaysian solution was put on the table. I can’t forget the people at the front of the queue in Malaysia, yes there is a queue these people have been granted asylum 10 years ago by the UN, the have not the money to hire a boat smuggler only those with money can do that . There is also a second queue in Pakistan. We have been conned by people jumping queues , pretending to attempt suicide, over 1100 attempts,I say bullshit but all the time this is going on we ignore the people at the front of the queue the people already processed, I say shame on the people believing boat people are not jumping queues this situation is unfair and unacceptable
      michael gardiner

    • Ron says:

      03:12pm | 11/04/12

      Yes, this writer clearly makes his living from protecting illegals so we can’t expect him to say otherwise.  He makes too many glib comments to refer to.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

ToryShepherd

@KevCorduroy @ceda_news Cheers, couldn't get on to them but Redmond's office helped out in the end!

ToryShepherd

Does half the population really want to close the borders?? http://t.co/cNmpV2qH

Paul Colgan

In which Schapelle Corby is Photoshopped as Joan of Arc http://t.co/08UWH6yq

Paul Colgan

@karalee_ yeah, have concluded same after cursory look at a few. Scary that some brands might actually use them

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Schapelle has done her time

Schapelle has done her time

Schapelle Corby has served more than seven years in Kerobokan prison for attempting to import 4.2 kilos…

Do women need to know when to walk away?

Do women need to know when to walk away?

Opposition Leader Isobel Redmond has sparked controversy over her advice that young women should sometimes…

Who murdered the Arts degree?

Who murdered the Arts degree?

Have we murdered the liberal arts education? That was the final question on Monday night’s Q&A…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

242 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter