The arrival of a newborn child does strange things to people. It warps their perspective and clouds their judgement — and that’s to say nothing of sleep-deprived new parents. Instead, it’s a conclusion I’ve reached by reading commentators and readers of opinion websites.

Here they come…every pram-haters worst nightmare.

Take, for example, Carrie Miller’s offering in yesterday’s edition of The Punch. While Miller had a point about overbearing middle-class parents, she sounded like a child who needs a spell on the naughty step by likening child-bearing to ‘a banal biological tradition driven by the baser instincts inherent in animals’. 

Miller isn’t alone in reducing childbearing to nothing more than ‘biological tradition’. Over at Fairfax’s competitor to The Punch, the National Times, recent articles about the behaviour of harried parents and their prams provoked comments from readers arguing that children are nothing than a lifestyle choice.

One reader argued that parents should ‘Shop online and stop annoying the rest of us with your lifestyle choices’. Replying to another reader who pointed out that children were the continuation of the species, the same reader asked whether ‘It’s essential that an already overpopulated planet, on the brink of man made environmental disaster has more children brought into it.’

Another defended her decision to park in carparks reserved for those with prams on the basis that ‘Parenting is a choice’. Yet another decided that parents who engaged in the debate were not even entitled to an opinion. ‘[D]on’t those who choose to breed get touchy when you suggest the world doesn’t revolve around them’ the reader wrote.

In some ways, of course, having children is a choice. The development of effective, affordable and widely available contraception means that men and woman have more control over their fertility than at any other time in history. It is now possible to choose when to have children to fit in with one’s lifestyle — or not to have them at all.

But to reduce children to ‘biological tradition’ or a lifestyle choice is as silly as arguing that water is drunk only out of a deference to tradition or that inhabiting planet earth is a lifestyle choice. 

The absurdity of this position was bought home to me some years back while listening to Radio National’s talk-back show Australia Talks Back. The topic of the show was whether people should have to pay taxes to support other people’s children. Introducing the segment, the host at the time, Sandy McCutcheon, asked ‘Children: are they a public good?’

Just posing the question in this way is to commit a basic category error. Without children, there is no public and without a public there is no public good.

Those who regard children as nothing more than ‘biological tradition’ or other people’s lifestyle choice make a similar category error. Even on the crudest and narrowest calculations of self-interest, this view doesn’t stack up.

Where do these people think their lifestyle comes from? Who pays the taxes that creates hospitals, schools, roads and other basic infrastructure? Who supplies the water, electricity, sewage without which their lifestyles would be impoverish?  And when they’re old and frail, who’s there to care and clean up after them?

The answer to all of these questions is other people, who, startling as it might sound, start out as children.

At its most extreme, dismissing children in this way reveals a misanthropic individualism mixed with a virulently anti-social outlook; one that treats the presence of other human beings as little more than an inconvenience and an intrusion into an otherwise perfect existence.

Of course, it doesn’t follow from this that we should always be compelled to embrace other people’s children. Children can be little shits. Just ask any parent.

Nor does it follow that those with children are superior to those who choose not to. Clearly a full and fulfilling life can be had with or without children. Nevertheless, it’s a step too far to reduce children to a lifestyle choice.

So the next time you’re inconvenienced by a pram in a supermarket or your attempts to a read a book in a cafe are interrupted by a restless child, just stop and think for a moment. Someday, someone’s deference to ‘biological tradition’ just might be serving you a latte, removing your tumour, or changing your bed pan.

Christopher Scanlon teaches journalism at La Trobe University and is a co-founder of http://www.upstart.net.au

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100 comments

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    • Paul (again) says:

      06:00am | 16/02/10

      Yesterday’s comment storm allows me to anticipate responses to this piece.  Your point about certain positions revealing a radically individualist view of the world are certainly true - yesterday people were arguing that they were saving for retirement and would never depend on anyone for anything and would therefore be OK and should be freed from the burden of tolerating the eixstence of children.  Such self-conviction, that never admits vulnerability or dependency (present or future), won’t admit the quite reasonable points you make here because it somehow infringes on the image of total self-reliance they have created for themselves: all these little islands of furious self-regard.  As someone who had a 3 year old refuse to eat his dinner and chuck a force-10 tanty last night and a 5 year old kick me out of bed at 4 this morning I have no illusions about the wrecking ball effect kids can wreak - but to suggest they are little more than the consequence of a decision no deeper than the selection of an IKEA couch is wilfully obtuse.

    • jed says:

      06:50am | 16/02/10

      the are a lifstyle choice, mate, and selfish is someone who looks like you deciding to breed. think of the hell you’d be putting your spawn through.

    • George says:

      07:01am | 16/02/10

      Couldn’t agree more with your Christopher!  Perhaps Ms Miller was alwayst old by her parents that she was their ‘life style choice’.  I can’t help but feel sorry for her, she sounds like she a person with ‘affection deficiency syndrome!.!

    • Liz says:

      07:22am | 16/02/10

      Yes she did if you’ve been paying attention.Compassion please.

    • Vicki PS says:

      07:04am | 16/02/10

      While I didn’t care for the smug and accusatory tone of Carrie Miller’s article, in all fairness it should be pointed out that she aimed her diatribe at the well-heeled middle classes who expect their parenting activities to be as rivetting as the rest of their aren’t-we-marvellous lives.  Ms Miller seemed to quite pleased that the labouring proletariat continued the laudable task of manufacturing new humans.

    • Bent says:

      07:10am | 16/02/10

      This is all very true. Whether you like it or not you will need this brats in 25 years time.

      The world is really just one giant pyramid scheme. Taking money from the workers of now to pay for the final years of the workers of yesteryear. Unfortunately, it takes more workers to pay for whats required now than it did in the past, and this will only continue to grow. With our aging population, it really is a matter of either financially helping people make lots of babies now, or start taking advantage of those super fund bonuses on offer. As the money needs to come from somewhere, and if it isn’t from even more taxpayers, then you will need to find it yourself.

    • Tim says:

      09:00am | 16/02/10

      I think the chances of there being a pension by the time I retire are very slim.
      Either that or the government will have changed the retirement age to 75 by then.

    • Kim says:

      12:18pm | 16/02/10

      Financially helping people makes lots of babies now?  I haven’t received one cent from the government for any of my 4 kids.  I always get the “Your combined income is over blah blah blah and therefore you receive diddly-squat from us”.  As for super-funds, mine was completely depleted by AMP in 2000.  So, I’m relying on my kids to look out for their parents when we’re both old and grey.  That’s what families are for aren’t they?  I won’t expect a cent from the government.  They take from me, but are unwilling to help out in times of duress and probably won’t have any money to help out when I’m older.  Who else am I supposed to look to?

    • Liz says:

      07:24am | 16/02/10

      It’s true but will these helicopter kids be compassionate enough to think of others, their parent sseem unable to teach them.

    • Jake the Muss says:

      08:26am | 16/02/10

      I can’t tell whether you don’t understand what ‘public good’ is or if you do understand but have deliberately refused to actually argue that children are public goods.

      If the former, Wikipedia will help you.  If the latter, shame on you sir.

      I any event, the talk back host (and you) should have asked whether children are positive externalities.

      That hypothetical child serving me a latte will be directly paid for their service, which immediately discounts them from being a public good or even an externality.

      There is an argument that children have positive externalities, in relation to our ageing population and the need for more working age people to share the burden of a tirade of retirement age people who expect a pension (as they themselves paid for previous generations). 

      It is not an argument I personally accept however it is the valid one, unlike your esoteric drivel.

      Once that argument is made I would suggest firstly that subsidisation is not an affective means of fixing the problem (unseen negative consequences and such), and that if one does want to increase the working age population, skilled immigration is the far superior policy choice.

      I found the ‘anti parent, anti child’ argument to be a rather silly rant also however your response is far from a substantive response.

      As for people taking ‘parents with prams’ spaces, that is not a matter of parents and children, that is a matter of that person breaching the property rights of the car park owner and the contract they have entered with said car park owner.

      http://www.pimpinforfreedom.wordpress.com

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      08:48am | 16/02/10

      The article makes a lot of assumptions. The first is that children are not a drain on the economy. A baby boom requires additional infrastructure in the form of extra maternity ward places, kindergarden place, child care places, primary school. For the first 18 years and last 18 years of their lifespan they are actually a net drain on the economy. The second assumption is that they become a taxpayer during the productive phase. This requires that the jobs are actually available. Unemployment rates and underemployment rates guarantee that some of the children will go on welfare and become a drain on the economy. We are witnessing first hand institutionalized welfare generations who cannot or will not participate in the workforce. The third assumption is that there is no environmental cost. Since a child requires X of resources over a lifespan with resultant pollution or environmental degredation.

    • Ish says:

      01:34pm | 16/02/10

      Isn’t your comment about an “institutionalized welfare generation” an assumption also? Are you able to forecast the future employment rates?
      In any case if this is what you believe then surely the answer is to encourage working, middle and upper class couples to have children who will more likely than not be productive members of society in the future. Well the government are intending on rectifying that with paid parental leave, which incidentally I intend on taking them up on.

    • RichW says:

      07:44pm | 16/02/10

      Money is a representation of time or labour, you work now to get paid and pay people to for work you are unable or unwilling to do (grow food, make a car, clean the house). As you get older more and more unables will appear till maybe you need help just to to the toilet. Thing is without people to pay the money you have at that point to it’s worthless. The fewer people there are the less your money is worth and the less you will get for it. So however well you have provided for the future by saving without children being born and raised you will be in a world of trouble

    • Tim says:

      08:59am | 16/02/10

      Wow, you make children sound as if they are a business plan for your future and not the selfish choice that they actually are.
      No-one is thinking of the benefits their child will be to society when they grow up before they have them.

      And, If its all about what the child can do for society, then why don’t we limit the parental welfare that people can receive to their first three children?
      This would ensure the continuation of our society as well as stopping people who cannot afford more children from having them.

    • James says:

      09:51am | 16/02/10

      Or at least limit the payout to the first one or two.  When my daughter was born, we got $800.  Now it is nearly $5000.  We thought $800 was generous, and it more than covered a cot, a pram (regular size), a few months of nappies and some extra clothes.  And we thought of it as a hand up, and used the assistance given to us by the government to place ourselves better for our future.  I know plenty of others who see it as a hand out, and the result is that they see their children as assets, rather than people.  Placing limits on the number of children as Tim proposes might not be a perfect solution, but it would be a lot better than the solution we have now.

    • Alosia says:

      09:15am | 16/02/10

      Carrie Miller’s article highlighted the selfishness of many. They want it all and are not prepared to share either their money or time with a child. Generation after after generation supported their own children without baby bonuse’s and handouts from the Governement. If they hadn’t many of you would not be here. Children cost but the joy and love you get in return is well worth the money. I have no idea what the answer is for people on welfare, you cannot say “well you don’t work no more kids for you” but they are a drain on the economy, the more children they have , the more money they get. And those children grow up with a welfare mentality. Some break away but I know familes with generations on a welfare payment. I go to my local shopping center and see pram after pram with twins and triplets ect. A single child is becoming a rarity.  I have no idea if the cost will even out in the end but you can bet , your tax payer dollars have gone to all these parents. Have children, you will reap great rewards, but please pay for your joy yourself.

    • Ish says:

      01:41pm | 16/02/10

      The boost in numbers of twins and triplets relates to IVF. If a couple are able to afford IVF I would think that they are not one of these families that rely on welfare payments.

    • James says:

      09:42am | 16/02/10

      Children are not lifestyle choices, or public goods, and reducing them to such is highly offensive.  They are human beings, and deserve to be treated just like any other human being.

    • Renee says:

      03:05pm | 16/02/10

      Too true James.  I think people have forgotten that if their parents had enacted their “lifestyle choice” not to procreate, they wouldnt be here. Simple as that. And exactly what would happen if everyone and i mean everyone everywhere decided thats it, no more kids?  Within 100 years all would be dead.

    • Bri says:

      09:43am | 16/02/10

      I can’t believe we are actually having this conversation - I’m amazed at how crazy people can be.

      Yes there are some people who could be doing better as parents and could be treating their kids better. Yes, some people just shouldn’t be parents. Yes, sometimes children can be irritating and annoying, especially when unsupervised or unmanaged by oblivious or careless parents.

      But really - OF COURSE children are a good thing for society. Apart from the obvious arguments made above that children are the ‘society’ of tomorrow, something no one seems to have mentioned yet is the emotional good that children do in the world.

      Children in general have a wonder about the world that adults have lost and older people have so much to gain and to learn from spending time with them. It is often children who are able to communicate the best with marginalised people in society like the mentally ill or the aged.

      As a parent, I can attest to the fact that having a child has demanded a great deal of personal growth from me that has made me a better person overall. All parents have to learn about self-sacrifice and self-denial, about the importance of serving others. These are very important lessons to learn in the modern world.

      If you’re worried about overpopulation (and that is a valid concern), have one child, that way you are not even replacing yourselves as parents and are reducing the population long term.

      I respect those who choose not to have children, but to act as if children are worthless in society is insulting and actually contributes to poor parenting.

    • megan says:

      11:07am | 16/02/10

      Really well said Bri. Unfortunately one great post is not enough to convince people. Today we will no doubt be subjected to the rants about wanting to go grocery shopping without encountering a screaming child (as if pushing the trolley around should be some kind of day spa experience).

      Its very difficult to reach people so hate filled that children in society are necessary, not to mention precious and wonderful.

    • Adam Diver says:

      02:10pm | 16/02/10

      This is the most disgraceful argument I have ever witnesses.

      There is nothing selfish about being a parent. My biggest regret from having children is my inability to be selfish anymore. I can’t even go to the fridge anymore without thinking first whether the children need something to eat or drink.

    • Renee says:

      03:10pm | 16/02/10

      Well said Bri, I agree with you completely.  Being a parent now myself, I have to say has made me better overall as well. And yes, it is very insulting to say that children are a “lifestyle choice” especially for those of us who truly wanted kids and love the joy and happiness they bring us.  For me, there is nothing better than being given a smile and a hug by my children.

    • Zeta says:

      09:43am | 16/02/10

      I didn’t read the article beyond… ‘Punch’s Fairfax competitor, ‘The National Times’. The Punch has a competitor?!? And I’m not trolling it mercilessly!?!?

      BRB, trollan

    • lcee says:

      09:56am | 16/02/10

      Yes kids are a public benefit but they are also very much a private one, ppl generally do not have kids in order to serve the public benefit, although that can be a side effect of having children. I don’t know what ppl mean when they say having kids is a lifestyle choice, but rather than taking it as an insult against community, survival and children, perhaps what some ppl mean by that is simply that by having children parents have chosen to alter their own lifestyle as it was before having children. If it is the latter than I don’t see it as terribly insulting, just a simple fact.

      Since lifestyle choice is often mentioned in terms of money and kids, the impression I get is that ppl have an issue not so much with supporting children but with supporting the parents to maintain the money, lifestyle and luxuries they had before having children by providing them with taxpayer funded money (which in some cases may not end up being spent on the kids). In that respect I can understand the lifestyle choice comments. What would be great is if money could be spent on providing goods and services for children so they can have the best of what they need to grow and enhance their well being so that the kids do see the benefits and so that money is less likely to be used by some in supporting them to live the lifestyle they want, are accustomed to, or feel they are missing out on by having children.

    • Sandra says:

      09:54pm | 16/02/10

      I could not agree with you more, lcee.

      I do not have any truck with parents who accept that parenting has opportunity costs but I have really had a gutful being told that, because I have chosen not to have children, that it somehow imposes on me a perverse form of cash tribute so that the child-burdened, smugly extolling their faux altruism (taxpayers of the future and all that rhetoric), may maintain a post-natal DINK lifestyle.

      To fend off the usual strawmen that come to these parties, please note I am not asking that children be made to starve in the streets. I strongly believe in hand-ups to address socio-economic disadvantage but I certainly oppose handouts to the wealthy. And I am not opposed to handouts merely because I am not getting one. But it is patently unfair that over-taxed childless singles (and couples) are facing the prospect of never owning a home while helping middle class parents buy their child the latest must-have gadget or acquire the McMansion to keep up with the Jones’.

      I am not mean-spirited. I NOT suggesting that parents ought to raise children with no support at all. Parents should be able to access social services aimed at making them better parents and I have no argument that social wealth is of long term benefit to me and society.  However, I oppose the notion that as upholding the PRIVATE wealth of parents is deserved as a matter of course, this can be achieved through compensatory monetary arrangements and it is morally acceptable to penalising the childless to achieve this.

      There is a classic double-standard. While the childless are no way responsible for the **arguable** financial adversity said to be experienced by the child-burdened, the entitlement-poisoned child-making lobbyists see no moral shame in effecting financial adversity upon the childless because, in their twisted logic, punishing them fiscally will somehow address this invented or imagined inequity.

    • Macca says:

      10:00am | 16/02/10

      Winge Winge Winge, argh, I don’t know where to start with all this…

      I’m going to guess that anyone who treats children with such disdain must have had some crap hurled their way in the past. And if thats the case, here is not the place to air it all out.

      Grow up, get over it and give people who make different choices to you some respect, even if you think you won’t receive it back.

      The lack of humility here is defeaning. Good Article Christopher, good article.

    • Super D says:

      10:02am | 16/02/10

      In response to the environmental concerns regarding the population and the decision to breed.  Whenyou cull the herd you take out the old and sterile first.  Your lifestyle choice not to breed would put you in line for the first human cull.

      Further lets not overlook the decision not to breed.  In some cases its a decision people have consciously made, in others its one that they have merely rationalised.  I imagine its a lot easier to dismiss children as a lifestyle choice when you haven’t found a suitable partner.

    • Sandra says:

      10:51am | 16/02/10

      I am surprised that tired old chestnut “my children are the taxpayers of the future who will discover the cure for cancer…”  has not yet been trotted out here on this forum as by the usual cabal of entitlement-poisoned child-makers; the middle-class ex-hipster parents who extol their faux-altrustic in a feeble effort to justify why they should have it all—maintaining their former DINKy lifestyle— and someone, anyone but themselves should pick up the tab.

      You are claiming children are a public good. So then it makes no sense to inflate the PRIVATE wealth of parents with taxpayers’ cash. If children are a public good, then parents should be offered public services for their children. Take for example the baby bonus. It is akin to giving $5000 to 1000 high-school students to spend as they please rather than giving $5m to a school or another entity to provide a public service for children.

      Parenthood IS a personal lifestyle choice, with costs and consequences, rewards and sacrifice. Provided fertility can be controlled,  having a family is just as much a valid choice as not having one. That is, children are a private good and their benefits are enjoyed mostly by their parents.

      It is true that those who have families have may have less discretionary income, less free time, and more “responsibilities”. However, if the rewards of doing so were not also great, why would so many people do it? People who choose to have children are making a private choice that should not burden people who choose not to have children.  Penalising middle-class childless households to cash up middle-class childed households may be good politics but it makes no economic sense.  Tthe childfree do not owe some perverse noblesse oblige to the seemingly aggrieved child-burdened. The childfree households did not exact sleepless nights, inflated waistlines and a dead sex life upon the child-makers.

      The redirection of income from the childless to the childed is, at best, pork barrelling and highly inefficient.  At worse, it is bald social engineering that seeks to reward those who fit the preferred social mould and punish those who have the termerity to dodge the bullet.

    • Tim says:

      11:05am | 16/02/10

      Thank You Sandra,
      this is exactly how I and many others feel.

    • James says:

      11:15am | 16/02/10

      Since when was politics about making sense economically.  Last time I checked, it was about winning elections.

      Plus, you are right that it is a choice.  If you are not happy with the choice you have made, then make a different one.  You obviously know the rules of the game, and yet you complain when your choices lead to the rules being stacked against you.  Like you say, you have made your choice.  Now it is time to live with it.

    • Tim says:

      11:57am | 16/02/10

      James,
      are you saying that corruption is OK as long as everyone knows that the corruption exists and can join in?
      What is wrong with trying to remove the corruption or at least, as Sandra says, improve where the funding is going to make it more efficient?
      And last time I checked there wasn’t an optional tick box on my tax return to withdraw public support for parents, so no I didn’t make a choice.

    • James says:

      12:09pm | 16/02/10

      I mean that you made a choice not to be a parent, Tim.  Despite the fact that you clearly think this places you at a disadvantage compared to those who make the opposite choice.

    • Mickey says:

      12:35pm | 16/02/10

      Sandra, i understand the point you are trying to make but i see the logic as flawed. By your reasoning, i have perfect grounds to object to the provision of tax breaks to businesses.  Why should i prop them up? And “temerity to dodge the bullet”. Cmon. You have made a deliberate decision to spend your life and resources on YOURSELF. You have every right to make that decision but please do not insult those reading by implying that you have chosen some great ultruistic path.
        Also, could it be that the family group gets assistance because it is seen as the core building block of our society? A group that contributes to the continuation of a society beyond their own lifespan? Just a thought.

    • Tim says:

      01:50pm | 16/02/10

      James, I haven’t actually made any decision, i’m just in the default position of not having kids yet.
      Mickey,
      arguing that businesses shouldn’t be propped up is a completely legitimate position. In an ideal society, no business would be given funds from the government for private enterprise.
      And as Sandra says, if the government wants to help children and the family unit why does this have to be in the form of cash payments to parents? Why not spend this money on improving schools and education or other services which would be of direct assistance to children?

    • Mickey says:

      02:09pm | 16/02/10

      Tim,
        It may be a legitimate position, but is it constructive for our society/community? At some point everyone needs to look past self interest and place others above themselves. It seems as a society, we are becoming less open to this view and more focused on what I am entitled to. What can I get for myself. Personally, i’m not a fan of business subsidies and tax breaks but i can understand how Australia benefits from this. So its a case of wearing a less than perfect situation for the benefit of a greater good.

    • rene says:

      03:19pm | 16/02/10

      Oh my, the $5000 baby bonues does not seem much when the average parents would have paid at least what?  $15k combined to the tax man on average every year ? So why shouldnt they get something back.  How about lets stop ALL of the tax breaks and bonuses that people can get, for example negative gearing, salary sacrifices etc…  That way, noone can whinge.

    • Sandra says:

      09:38pm | 16/02/10

      @Mickey “... by implying that you have chosen some great ultruistic [sic]path.” 
      Strawman, Mickey. I did not say that *I* was being altrustic although I could have pointed out that I am not going to deplete the earth’s resources by egotistically creating another little superconsumer.

      If anything, it is the child-makers who seem to fawn for that prize. Let’s be realistic here; across the bedrooms of this great brown land, NO-ONE has been greeted by their spouse with “honey, those JSFs are going to cost a fortune.!We had better make a taxpayer.”  The child-makers did NOT have children with the sole intention of benefiting me or the nation in 30 years’ time.

      I can cite examples of this cloyingly sentimental faux altruism. Exhibit A: ”  Also, could it be that the family group gets assistance because it is seen as the core building block of our society? A group that contributes to the continuation of a society beyond their own lifespan?”

    • Sandra says:

      10:06pm | 16/02/10

      @  Mickey “we are becoming less open to this view and more focused on what I am entitled to. What can I get for myself?”

      Oh, you mean like the demands for cash handouts for proven fecundity?  Without a hint of irony, it seems the voices of those who argue against the notion that children are a private good and insist they are social goods are, incongruously,  supporters of private welfare – in the form of taxpayer-funded cash handouts —for parents and they seem to revile social support such as government supplied services for parents and their children. 

      Look past all the gumph, these are just really socialism for some. It doesn’t take an advanced skill in deconstructing the spin to reveal that this is really about “compensating” the child-makers who demand some inalienable right to a zero-sum impact on their post-natal lifestyle.

      Entitlement-poisoned much?

    • Mickey says:

      08:05am | 17/02/10

      Sandra, your long winded rhetoric only reinforces my position that you have placed your own needs above society and family. Your position is exactly what i would expect from someone who can spend their entire life with their own needs as their greatest driving factor. You seek to lay blame? Look at your own feet. The ‘ME, ME , ME” generation have alot to answer for. Whether you choose to accept the obvious or not, parenting (should be) a selfless endeavour. You clearly are underqualified to handle this simple proposition.

    • Mickey says:

      08:23am | 17/02/10

      Sandra, additionally, how about giving up something for the greater good? For the benefit of society in general? Got news for you. That isnt socialism. Its called being a decent human being. Try it sometime. You may enjoy it. Although going by your posts i would doubt it. And as for a feeling of entitlement, have a look in the mirror. You are contributing to nothing except yourself.

    • Tim says:

      02:23pm | 17/02/10

      C’mon Mickey,
      Be honest.
      Did you even once think that you were having a child for the greater good of society?
      “Hey honey lets make ourselves a little taxpayer, Peter Costello told us to.”
      You talk about the me me me generation.
      Well that is exactly what Sandra is talking about, people today unwilling to sacrifice their previous lifestyle once they become parents.
      A lot of them think they are owed something, just for procreating. If parenting is so selfless why do parents constantly complain about how tough things are and how the government should do “SOMETHING”?
      Every previous generation has been able to do it. What is so special about this generation that they need ever increasing levels of government assistance for what basically comes down to their own personal life choice?

    • Sandra says:

      07:57am | 18/02/10

      @ Mickey . Argumentum ad hominum.

      Further, you do not appear to understand the meaning of “logic”.

      “long winded rhetoric only reinforces my position that you have placed your own needs above society and family” Strawman again. What do you know of my background or what I do for a living and what I do voluntarily?

      By all means, debunk my assertions but not attack me.

    • Mickey says:

      11:58am | 18/02/10

      Sandra, if you dont want to be attacked, then dont attack others. “Cloyingly sentimental faux altruism”  You suggest my motives are far from pure and the get sensitive because i return serve? If you dont want to get muddy dont throw mud would be my suggestion. What do i know of your background? Nothing. What do you know of my motives and driving ethics? Nothing. Yet you are content to attack my position. Dont start a fight you have no wish top finish. Now get out your dictionary and how many big words you can use to explain a simple position. Best of luck!

    • Mickey says:

      12:03pm | 18/02/10

      Tim, my point was not having a child is for the greater good. That comment relates back to my point that subsidies and breaks , while not necessarily for the benefit of my social group, may be for the benefit of the greater community. Such as the example i gave of business tax discounts. Parenting is not alwyas selfless. It SHOULD be. That is the point.

    • Sandra says:

      09:52pm | 19/02/10

      *sigh* @ Mickey. Re-read what I said about social assistance and not PRIVATE wealth Mickey. And read it again. But hey, if you think my suggestion about effficent redestribution of social welfare services to effect better outcomes for all somehow makes me Selfish (tm), then go ahead and maintain that pigheaded delusion along with the other presumptions you have clearly made about my age, my life, my “decentness”, snide remarks about rhetoric and a dictionary and so on.  Your insistance that family is ” core building block of our society” is at best, a motherhood statement and, at worst, cloyingly sentimental. That is not a personal insult, it is an opinion. You resorted to insults.

      But (amusingly) you have only dug your assertion into a deeper hole than before and you have not articulated your “point” until your very last post. So, if parenting is (normatively) selfless—as you say—then it should not attact a subsidy any more than any other selfless activity. If parenting requires an incentivisation to make it selfless, then that act of subsidising completely contradicts the notion of selflessness.

      Parentiing that has to be incentivised financially then becomes not about children,  family or the continuation of society <insert other mawkish statement>  but about material private wealth being augmented for specific individuals who meet a specific criterion at the expense of the others who do not. That *is* socialism for some (as opposed to socialism for all).

      Like I said, you do need to get a better understanding of what is meant by logic.  That is not an insult, that is an observation. And yes, a dictionary too if that will help you.

    • caroline says:

      11:02am | 16/02/10

      you child-haters do all realise that you were born once too right?  i’m sure you’re all pretty happy about the “lifestyle choice” your parents made when they had you.  what a ridiculous conversation this is.

    • Radical Chick says:

      11:23am | 16/02/10

      You are absolutely right!!
      This conversation is good for nothing….people do not need any more excuses for hatred…

    • Sandra says:

      10:09pm | 16/02/10

      Oh dear. I have NEVER heard that one before!  I guess if my parents had,  I wouldn’t have known the difference….but you would be arguing with my mother instead.

    • Vespasian Chronikal says:

      11:04am | 16/02/10

      I think the fact ppl who chose to forgeo children have made a “lifestyle choice” means they think those who do the opposite are also exercising a choice. It ain’t so, bro.

    • Anna C says:

      11:33am | 16/02/10

      More than 50% of families pay $0 net tax which means they get back more in Family Tax Benefit, Child Care Benefit etc than they pay in tax.  While I don’t begrudge people choosing to have children, I can also empathise with childless tax payers like myself who are increasingly being asked to shoulder the financial burden.  Politicians don’t throw money at the childless; they don’t care about courting our votes.  It can sometimes be gaulling knowing that my taxes are going to support people who are financially better off than me have children via the baby bonus, child care assistance.  The taxation system needs to be more balanced.

    • Anna C says:

      11:33am | 16/02/10

      More than 50% of families pay $0 net tax which means they get back more in Family Tax Benefit, Child Care Benefit etc than they pay in tax.  While I don’t begrudge people choosing to have children, I can also empathise with childless tax payers like myself who are increasingly being asked to shoulder the financial burden.  Politicians don’t throw money at the childless; they don’t care about courting our votes.  It can sometimes be gaulling knowing that my taxes are going to support people who are financially better off than me have children via the baby bonus, child care assistance.  The taxation system needs to be more balanced.

    • renee says:

      03:28pm | 16/02/10

      Well Anna C, we are not definitely NOT one of those `?.  Between us, we pay at least $30K a year in tax. And the ONLY thing we have ever gotten from the govt was the $5k bonus which went straight to the mortgage for the 8months off work.  We are also lucky that we have parents who also love their grandchildren and love looking after them some days of the week.  How about we remove negative gearing as my tax helps pay for that “bonus” and financial burden?

    • Radical Chick says:

      11:35am | 16/02/10

      I just would point out that children are full and protected citizens. They have EVERY right to be out in public and to cry as it were….those who don’t like it can b1tch about it as much as they like but in the end….they are on their own in their hating ways…..This is just a poor excuse for discriminatory people to hate others.  They hate others for their race, religion, Shape, language, place of origin or whether they are kids….quite frankly the whole argument is just disgusting!
      Sometimes I would rather be in Sweden where people love children the same way that Australians love dogs…..This Country is crazy!!

    • Rational Chick says:

      10:22pm | 16/02/10

      What is disgusting is your false analogy. To suggest that disliking screaming kids is on par with racism belittles the meaning of the very real discrimination that many people face.

      Go to Sweden. The divorce rate is the world’s highest (despite marriage being more difficult to dissolve there than in Australia), their suicide rate is higher than Australia’s. While paid maternity leave is often presented as some kind of holy ark of the covenent that will catalyse gender equity,  after 30 years of paid parental leave Swedish women are not equal to men in terms of earnings or representation in executive positions, the birth rate is not much higher than Australia’s, less than 18% of men bother to use their paternify leave and they have the same problems with juvenile deliquency as we have. Meanwhile, working class Swedish women are better off on sick leave than going to work. As a social policy, the childmaker lobby can forget about the nebulous claims that somehow, paid parental leave is some magic panacea that will transform society into some kind of huggy-kissy utopia.  There is one area of gender equity that is probaby not one indicative of a postitive policy outcome; incarceration rates of Swedish women has increased 50% in the last 5 years.

      Oh .... and the tax rate in phenomonal!.
      Well, go on. Off you go…

    • Isabel says:

      12:00pm | 16/02/10

      Once upon a time, not that long ago, celibacy or taking the risk of being a parent were the only lifestyle choices. While there can be no objection to people deciding not to parent, it is hoped that they also do not subscribe to concepts such as reincarnation - that would be extremely selfish!

    • Halberstram says:

      12:21pm | 16/02/10

      “And when they’re old and frail, who’s there to care and clean up after them?” .  .  .  . .  . Probably low-skilled migrants imported to do the job. . . . . . .  .Certainly not the children of the middle-class welfare beneficiaries!

    • Macca says:

      03:50pm | 16/02/10

      @Halberstram,  if your intention is to demean individuals in vocational occupations such as teaching or nursing, you have succeded.

      To Suggest children of middle-class families would not consider working in the hospitality, therapy or caring industries is either a mis-informed or arrogant notion

    • Bon says:

      12:29pm | 16/02/10

      The amount of money the government pays to parents for their children is just a fraction of what it costs to actually raise them, so to say that people only have babies so they can milk payments out of the government is ridiculous and insulting.  Your taxes do not support my children, my husband works hard (and pays a lot of tax) so that we can provide for our children.  We do not rely on the family payments we receive, but gratefully accept them and will continue to do so as long as the government tells us we are entitled to them.  Wouldn’t you?  Did you knock back your stimulus payment last year because you didn’t want to be a “burden” on society?

      Children are not a “lifestyle choice”.  Buying a pet is a lifestyle choice.

    • Mickey says:

      12:37pm | 16/02/10

      Well said Bon

    • Renee says:

      04:03pm | 16/02/10

      I agree. Very well said Bon.  And yes, those who knock the baby bonus and the like, did you knock back the stimlus payment? Didnt think so.

    • Jezebel says:

      10:27pm | 16/02/10

      Former Treasurer Peter Costello, had a bet both ways. While crowing the baby bonus “worked [in increasing the birth rate] ” he also laughed off suggestions that single teenage women were also availing themselves of the baby bonus “who’d just have a baby to get a few thousand dollars?” he scoffed rhetorically.

      Bon, you are right. Children in of themselves are not a lifestyle choice. It becomes a “lifestyle choice” when the child-burdened bemoan the opportunity costs and DEMAND a zero-sum impact and someone else ought to pick up the tab

    • oldaussie says:

      12:58pm | 16/02/10

      Anyone expecting their children to look after them in their old age are going to be sorely disappointed.  You really need to have four or five to be sure of having one that will stick around when you’re old.

    • Margot says:

      01:00pm | 16/02/10

      Funny how there’s no where near the same amount of comments when a writer actually makes a cleaver and well thought out argument that only a fool would try to argue against.Well said Christopher…well said!

    • kev says:

      01:07pm | 16/02/10

      Children are not the problem or the issue. The problem are the parents.

    • Bitten says:

      02:39pm | 16/02/10

      Too true kev - but don’t expect a parent to be honest or insightful enough to respond to you. They’re too busy congratulating themselves on having babies.

    • Mickey says:

      03:19pm | 16/02/10

      Not true Bitten. As a parent, if i want to respond to a childish comment, i would rather talk to an actual child. As the problem, to clarify, is THE MINORITY OF PARENTS, not all. Pretty lazy generalisation.

    • Blondegirl says:

      10:04pm | 16/02/10

      Sorry Bitten… by and large we’re too busy raising our offspring to spend time congratulating ourselves for having them. 
      Methinks that you’ve been spending time around some very new new parents… who do indeed tend to be extraordinarily proud of their achievement in bringing a new life into the world.  Once you’ve had them for a while you realize that the actual having of the baby is very much the easy bit - and far less time consuming.  I think that the problem tends to be with the parents who refuse the acknowledge that fact, not the majority who are just getting on with the ongoing task of child-rearing.

    • SM says:

      01:11pm | 16/02/10

      Lots of couples get bored with each others company and run out of things to talk about.  Kids are had to fill the void.  We should really feel sorry for them (the couples and the kids).  If they get in your way while you’re eating or shopping don’t worry about it - they have much bigger problems to deal with (the couples and the kids)

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:23pm | 16/02/10

      Ah, middle class welfare- the crack cocaine of government expenditure. I wonder how future governments will act when it becomes a choice between pension / heath care cost of the oldies and the middle class welfare of families. There’s only so much blood that the government can squeeze from single / childless couple professionals before they vote with their feet or invest in off shore banking.

    • E says:

      02:04pm | 16/02/10

      But you forget, there will be nobody to complain when they are euthanased for the public good. See it all works out in the end.

    • E says:

      02:06pm | 16/02/10

      I often complain that people are about nothing more than ‘feeding and breeding’, turns out theres a lot of you that cant even manage to breed.
      I’m really sorry if you feel compelled to commit genetic suicide by failing to reproduce, but youve got to realise that no matter how rich you are, when you are old someone will be changing the bedpan.
      The weird thing is that at least one poster mentioned ‘skilled immigration’ as the solution, so let me get this straight… its ok for people overseas to have kids to provide you services, just not Australians?
      In closing I think its a symbol of how sick and twisted a lot of people are that they are now somehow ‘anti-children’. I mean seriously, take a look at yourself.

    • Robert King says:

      08:23pm | 16/02/10

      Perhaps you should take a look at yourself… What I find ‘sick and twisted’ is that people with PhDs, who teach ‘journalism’ at university can completely misread and subsequently misrepresent a satirical article posted online in ‘The Punch’. What’s even worse is that other people such as you uncritically take the bait, hook, line and sinker creating a perfect self-referrential loop of lazy, slovenly ‘double-plus-good duckspeak’.

    • COF says:

      02:15pm | 16/02/10

      Christopher, your article attacks the issue from the right angle but doesn’t go far enough in debasing this anti-breeding lobby.

      I find the elimination of child rearing to a “selfish act” to be the final nail in the coffin of civilisation.

      When the continuation of the species is put in jeopardy because existing people feel that their lives are encroached by these little monsters, you begin to wonder whether these existing people have any idea where they came from. Maybe they were born adults? Maybe they just dropped here out of the sky?

      It is clear that putting a malthusian bent to breeding is not only irrational, but unbelievably selfish. I can’t even imagine what it is like to scorn another person’s right to live just because it may effect my sensibilities.

      As far as the mad protective instincts that are associated with middle class parenting as per Carrie’s article , I wouldn’t say that protective instincts are restricted to the middle class, just as selfishness is not necessarily a purely middle class instinct. “Middle class” is a pretty massive demographic to lump a characteristic with, and it is a typical technique of Carrie’s to take the worst characteristics of the people she knows, take note of their demographic, and wala! You have a sociological think piece.

      I think that there needs to be a little bit of live and let live on this subject. People may need to grow up a little and realise that society is a collaborative effort.

    • rene says:

      03:22pm | 16/02/10

      ” you begin to wonder whether these existing people have any idea where they came from. Maybe they were born adults? Maybe they just dropped here out of the sky?”  Hahaha COF you made me laugh. Well said grin

    • Robert King says:

      08:12pm | 16/02/10

      I think you may have meant ’Voi-la!’… but I don’t speak any foreign languages; guess I’m just not cultured like you. I know that ‘walla’ is Australian Harley-Davidson speak for 45 cubic inch 45 degree V twins manufactured between 1942 and 1945; the ‘WL’ is for that size side-valve engine, the ‘A’ is for ‘army’. I just don’t know what a ‘wala’ is; perhaps a small parrot?

      Just who constitutes this ‘anti-breeding lobby’ you speak of … or is that just another of the straw figures that rightwing fruitcakes and religious cranks create and got away with creating for so long? Where would the Christian-right be without their imaginary friends and spurious manufactured ‘enemies’?

      It is overwhelmingly apparent that Ms Miller’s article isn’t about being ‘anti-breeding’; it’s about the unrealistic expectation (largely set-up by the previous government and it’s cynical vote-grab, baby-bonus) that certain parents have of special consideration, reward and status for performing a biological function that is so rudimentary, so normal, so average, so ordinary as to be an everyday commonplace. Why do so many of the current crop of parents expect recognition for performing their allotted biological task?  Sit down. Shut up. Read. Think. Read again. Think some more. Is any of this sinking in?

      ‘Child-rearing’ or more correctly ‘procreation’ is the ultimate act of narcissism; what could possibly be more self-indulgent than choosing to reproduce yourself? Sure, reproduction is essential to the survival of the species, but who actually considers this red-herring when choosing to have children? People choose to have children for their own, entirely personal considerations; not those of the broader community, not, ultimately those of the children and certainly not those of the human species.

    • Sandra says:

      09:57pm | 16/02/10

      ” People may need to grow up a little and realise that society is a collaborative effort. ” Good, So that means that, when your kids are naughty in public that means “society” has the right to berate you or them for being naughty? Oh no, silly me. That’s when all bets are off, of course.

    • COF says:

      08:43am | 18/02/10

      Robert King,

      indeed I have missed the correct spelling of the french expression in my readings, very embarrassed. I don’t think I am any more cultured than you Robert, no need to belittle yourself.
      The anti breeding lobby I speak of is a portmanteau of the comments I had read under this piece and Carrie’s with regards to the selfishness of breeding, I was merely trying to point out the selfishness of that argument, that it is essentially a reaction to having an increase of people competing for “your” resources. People who argue for limiting immigration use the same argument, and are ultimately motivated by the same selfishness.
      Now Carrie’s argument suggests that it is not fair that people who choose not to have children for some reason, do not get the monetary benefits that people who have children are entitiled to - it is all about equity, in the end. I have a few points to make about this:
      1. The Government’s self interest in the matter. Economic strength and continuing tax receipts depend on growth, therefore they have a self interest in assisting human population growth. People make a monetary sacrifice to breed, so the government compensates that sacrifice with a little bit of pizza money - call it an investment in future income tax receipts.
      2. The altruistic argument for limiting population growth is essentially false. From a secular humanist perspective (i.e. nothing to do with your own straw man the “imaginary person”), the survival of the human species depends on maximum genome variation, therefore the maximum possible human population is an ideal. How does artificially bottlenecking the population acheive this? Even Dawkins himself would agree with this argument.
      3. What about the Earth you say? The earth will be here long after we are gone, with an environment likely to be just as beautiful as we believe it is now. The environment movement is not about protecting the earth, just our ability to live on the earth. Now, by limiting the amount of human beings born now, on a hunch that the increase may effect our ability to live on this planet, is a massive injustice not only to the human species but to the single humans that this manipulation did not allow to be born. Sustainability needs to follow avenues other than population control to be humanistic.
      4. This leaves only one avenue for the population limiting debate - selfishness. I assure you, in all truth, this is where it begins. The rest is window dressing.
      5. The other point you make is that Carrie’s view that the parents believe they ultimately “deserve” the baby bonus. This is not representative of all parents I’m sure, nor is it unnatural for people too feel they “deserve” anything they are given. I do mention Carrie’s tendency to generalise as being the main reason why a criticise her - she does seem to take the worst examples of people in her daily life, and lump everyone else with them. Isolated incidents do not make up a reasonable mirror of society’s actions or beliefs.
      I am not a member of the pro christian lobby, I am definitely a believer in natural selection, so I think you are setting up your own straw men to beat up there. Rather than sitting down and shutting up, I deplore you to take a deep breath, find your inner adult, and let him reply to this comment. I am always open to mature critique.

    • COF says:

      10:31am | 18/02/10

      “Implore” in the last sentence. I should proof read my work.

    • Sandra says:

      08:03am | 20/02/10

      @ COF. There is not so much an anti-breeding lobby, but rather, questions being raised about the poisonment-entitled breeding lobby. Yes, some parents just get on with the job but there seems to be a growing cabal of child-makers who seem to want it all; they want the education, the high-flying job, the big house with mod cons, flexible work hours but still have a fast-track to the corner office, quality time with the kids, maintain thei pre-natal DINK lifestyle and someone, ANYONE, but them must pick up the tab.

      To your points. 1. FALSE. Pro-natalist policies that reward fecundity with cash and penalise the childless may be good politics but it is lousy economics. Overwhelming, it is, at best, ideological and dogmatic. At worse it is little more than a poorly disguised piece of obnoxious social engineering that shrieks “if you are not married and making children, you are not worthy of being a member of society.”  IF children are social goods, then their needs are better met by social assistance and not private wlefare.
      2. That position is arguable. Some assert that human population is currently sustainable, others do not. There is overwhelming evidence that the planet is adversely impacted by our over-consumption and over-population. It is the tin-foil hat brigade who seem to agitate against this.
      3. The notion that one is “preventing people from existing” is just plain silly. I do not believe I am surrounded by disembodied ghost babies crying as they are defeated by attempts to enter my womb.
      4. You may “assure” but you have only an assertion and nothing to back your claim. “Selfihsness” could also be applied to those who have children; to please a partbner, to create a grandchild, to have amini-me, to have unconditional love, to have company in old age etc. Few people who have children do so for the benefit of humanity. The “window dressing” could easily be applied to the entitlement-poisoned breeder lobby (See ciomments earlier about social engineering).

      “the continuation of the species is put in jeopardy…” Nice touch of hysteria there.  You overstate the postion. Carrie and most respondants here are not calling for human extinction (strawman). Carrie expresses (alsbeit poorly) her umbrage at middle-class prats who elevate their fecundity to some perverse status. Other respondants agree that the financial incentives given to parents are either unjustified or inequitable.
      COF,  I deplore you to take a deep breath, find your inner adult, and actally **read** what has been said here before jumping to misguided conclusions.

    • Nathan H says:

      02:49pm | 16/02/10

      There are some excellent points here. I read yesterdays arguement’s and couldn’t feel outraged or emboldend either way. I think Chris is right about the categorical error ascribing children to choice; because it’s clearly mandatory that SOMEONE should have them. However, not everyone should, nor should those who do little more than nature intended deserve to be perched on a pedestal as som paragon of fornicating virtue.

      There’s as much evidence to suggest having childen is a public good as it is a public ill: Young Australian of the year and Corey ‘Party Boy’ Worthington as some notable examples. Kids aren’t a public good. They’re just a public ... in waiting.

    • Buga says:

      07:17pm | 16/02/10

      Nathan is quite correct,just because they are, does not give them and their parents a leave pass.
      Basic good manners seems to be a bit of an issue here,a bit of give and take would probably be a good thing,however,side by side prams are a bit antisocial perhaps?

    • Astrosodi says:

      03:08pm | 16/02/10

      Is this the Twilight Zone? I don’t recall reading anywhere in Carrie’s opinion piece that she hated children. She said she didn’t like the attitudey some parents had towards her because she has chosen to remain childess. Frankly, I am not sure why I’m commenting, because it seems that many have lost the plot. She does have children. Children are valuable. Many people are better people for having them. No-one is a worse person for not having them. Even if you believe people grow from having kids, no-one is worse simply by not having them. You get benefits form having children, you get benefits from not having children. Some people’s children will help them as they age; othjer people’s children will grow up into those same selfish people you all accuse each other of being. Wow!

    • Marianne says:

      04:24pm | 16/02/10

      So you are trying to say that by havings kids I would be saving the world, because in 20-30 years they might possibly take care of old people?

      That’s as ridiculous as you think them being a lifestyle choice is. 98% of people never work in aged care, and NOT having kids does more good for the environment than a lifetime of recycling and green living does.

      If people want kids, then go for it, I’m not gonna condemn them for it, but they ARE a lifestyle choice, and no matter how you look at it, having kids will do more bad for the planet than good. If most people didn’t have kids, not only would pollution be lower, but there would also be less old people to take care of, so it would all add up. You don’t have to have kids to save the world as we know it, which is what you try to make it sound like.

      You are probably just trying to justify your choice to have kids, because people with kids for some reason always feel like they need to justify it, as if it’s something other than just choosing a certain lifestyle. My guess is that having kids is so shitty that you need to tell yourself you’re doing something good for the planet just to cope with it.

    • jooj says:

      04:51pm | 16/02/10

      Why are people without kids so angry? I mean they are kids, they are humans. Because they may annoy this uppity bunch of singles whilst they are sipping their coffees in their gentrified suburbs, people make out that kids are some lifestyle choice and some sort of accessory? I mean WTF? what kind of society are we evolving into?

      I would be willing to bet that all these ‘anti-children’ singles and their tax dollars, are the ones that turn into the psycho overprotective and my kid can do no wrong, type of parents. They always do. They riducle others, but when the boot is on the other foot, the world has to stop for their children.

      You are just a bunch of narcissistic clowns..the same ones who as singles, think the world revolves around them, and who if they do have kids, the world revolves around their kid and everyone else is an inconvenience. Dont blame other peoples kids on your arrogance and your selfishness.

    • Robert King says:

      04:58pm | 16/02/10

      Astounding… or, at very least, ‘amazing’ (in the modern parlance)... How can a man of your education, with your journalistic credentials, be so wide of the mark? Ms Miller didn’t suggest that ‘children are bad’, or ‘we should stop breeding’ or… however else you care to formulate your false premise. Ms Miller suggested that human reproduction is a biological commonplace; that this is correct is evidenced by the alarming birthrate we maintain. Ms Miller’s point would seem to be; humans giving birth to other humans is so ordinary, so banal, so self-evidently a biologically necessity that the aura of exclusive mystique and profound personal achievement parents currently ascribe to it is patently ludicrous. If a man like you entirly missed that point, what hope is there for the vast, blissfully ignorant mass. It would have been safe, I incorrectly assumed, to think that a lecturer in journalism would be familiar with the satirical traditon of a magazine named ‘Punch’. Imagine my disappointment.

    • Kelly says:

      06:46pm | 16/02/10

      It is truly unfortunate that woman cannot have both; it is a career or family.  Then, berated for either choice they make. If they chose to stay home and/or work part time to raise a family, they are just a “stay at home mum” and a drain on the economy. If they work hard on a career that almost always ensures long hours etc., they are selfish for not having children. And god forbid they do both, this evokes the “bad parent” attitude.

      As a single person, who has decided not to have children, not because I am selfish or want to see the human race die out, but because, I chose to focus on a career that I really enjoy and know that I would be unable to maintain the same level of commitment if I decided to have a child.

    • Schopenhauer's Ghost says:

      07:19pm | 16/02/10

      The category mistake that’s being made lies in the mistaken belief that Miller’s piece was about children; it was simply about the attitude of a very specific sub-group of parents and their attitudes to parenthood. I think she called it a “biological tradition” rather than say a “biological imperative” because, as you point out, it’s something people have the ability to opt out of, and indeed there are increasing numbers of people consciously choosing this option. This would now make human reproduction something with a history, or to put it another way, a tradition - one that can be broken with.

      And to all those that say reproduction must take place, actually we can imagine a possible world where people don’t do it at all - yes, we wouldn’t exist, but who’s to say human existence is a necessary and immutable truth about existence in general?

    • COF says:

      10:45am | 18/02/10

      Indeed, why believe in anything?

      Do you think taking a nihilistic stance gives a fair representation of the issue? What truth are you espousing? Do you think non existence is truth? How do you rationalise a non existent end?

      Both Carrie’s and Christopher’s article demonstrate basically a unrepresentative perspective of two sides of a non existent debate - in the end there is no problem with the choice of breeding, or not breeding for that matter. The only issue is that Carrie needs to get some new friends.

      But fly the flag of nothingness if it makes you look good. But then, why bother to look good? What end does it serve?

    • Trudy says:

      07:52pm | 16/02/10

      I am childless and will probably remain that way. I’m still quite young, but don’t want children. I am fed up with being told I am selfish, a waste, and, my personal favourite, less of a human being for making this decision. These accusations are baseless and, if we’re being honest, sexist. I don’t think remaining childfree is any less a legitimate decision than having kids. And yes, regardless of biological imperative, having kids is a decision. We need people to reproduce, we don’t need everyone to. I have no desperate need for my genes to live on, nor do I think I would necessarily be a good mother.

      I am happy to live and let live, and would just like people to treat me with the same courtesy.

    • sal says:

      09:09pm | 16/02/10

      OMG, there is such a thing as an anti-breeding lobby?

      I looked up this site for the first time tonight to post a comment in response to Carrie Miller’s article only to find myself in a state of utter dismay at the nature of some of the views expressed above.

      I am very much unashamadly a middle-class parent and if reading Carrie Miller’s article and all the comments posted here in defence of her point of view has done anything, it has made me realise how glad I am to not feel as miserable as you sound with your lot in life.

      It would seem that we are increasingly moving into a very sad and scary space in this country and I do fear for what the future holds, particularly for all the little people, including my own.

    • Micae says:

      02:10am | 17/02/10

      I wanted kids when I had something to give them and waited till I was nearly too old. I don’t expect anything back from them. The pleasure is in having them, sharing the fun you have with them and the closeness and love that is different from any other kind of love. For sure they give you aggravation and inconvenience but that is minute - in total, they are a pleasure and I have been blessed - I realise not everyone can be so lucky as to have kids. I’m glad someone is there to inherit whatever I can pass on, including things that were owned by my great grandparents - it is wonderful to feel you are part of a larger whole, going right back and hopefully going to continue on.

    • Micae says:

      02:17am | 17/02/10

      I remember this old woman walking past me pushing my first in a pram and she barely paused as she said ‘now you can look a millionaire in the eye.’
      Another old woman I knew at that time said to me she remembered when she had her kids as the best time in her life.
      Now I know what they mean.
      Sorry this is my second post but your article has brought home to me the gulf between modern post-pill society and previous generations where children were welcomed. I think many people now don’t realise what they are missing by not having kids, mainly because they don’t really have much to do with kids just as many kids have no first hand knowledge of the very old - hence the current horror of the old (next to the word ‘gay’, being ‘old’ is a major insult).

    • Irene says:

      03:39pm | 27/02/10

      “Another defended her decision to park in carparks reserved for those with prams on the basis that ‘Parenting is a choice’. Yet another decided that parents who engaged in the debate were not even entitled to an opinion. ‘[D]on’t those who choose to breed get touchy when you suggest the world doesn’t revolve around them’ the reader wrote.”

      Interesting that you conveniently seemed to omit a commenter on that same site who proudly proclaimed his “justified” and “moral” right to vandalise property to make some perverse point when he took umbrage that his so-called right to a parental parking bay was taken by someone unfecund and so less deserving. To wit:

      “Here’s the thing with you doing this though…you get people like me who ahve [sic] few morals and large set of keys…I feel entirely justifed with the nice, deep dent i [sic] put along his lovely paint owrk [sic] on either side of his pride and joy and would do it again without a second thought….Just remember - a perant [sic] will do anything to protect the welbeing [sic] of their child - your car does not even register to us.”

      But of course, this person is A Parent (tm) and is filled with those special and unique hormones of the fecund and is wearing that halo of immunity that makes them exempted from chastisement for their obnoxious (and illegal)  behaviour when they profer It Is For My Chiiiiiildren as an excuse.  This is the very kind of person that Carrie was talking about.

    • Jolanda says:

      09:39am | 28/02/10

      The reason that attitudes have developed against children is because many children today are not taught to be respecful and to consider others.  Often it is an extension of the parents attitude.  It is the parents fault.  In my younger days when we went somewhere we wouldn’t dream of running around like lunatics and eating the nibblies by the handfull.  Now everything seems to revolve around the kids.

      These days children do what they want and too many have no manners or respect for adults they are resented as a result.  It was a bad decision the day adults decided that they wanted to be ‘at the child’s level’ and not feel old and started the trend of children calling them by their first name.  No respect = children with bad atttitude.  The thought of having to spend a day in the company of some children is enough to ruin your day and watching parents laugh at their kids and encourage rude antics (by their action or inaction) makes you worry for the future of this country.

      Education - Keeping them Honest
      http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/

    • Business Electricity says:

      02:19pm | 14/05/10

      Thanks for helpful advice. If my appliances are plugged into a surge protector oulet strip, I turn off the outlet strip result in the same savings as unpluging the individual appliances plugged into an outlet

    • Brian says:

      03:03pm | 14/05/10

      Look, if people having children today truly benefited me in the future, then I would say yes, that is great. But the truth is that now we have superannuation, the taxpayers of the future are actually NOT funding my retirement. So that is not an accurate point. I will agree however that we of course need to have functional members of society at all levels, so in the future yes we need new people.  In this day and age it is a choice to have kids (given contraception and all) and basically, the gripe childless by choice people have is that their tax goes to people who get money simply because they have kids (ie baby bonus). I have no problem with parents getting a small amount of government assistance to help with their kids but really, getting baby bonus, family tax benefit etc etc is all a bit much. I know my ex-sister in law actually gets more money in welfare for her 2 kids than I earn working full time. I know kids are expensive, but geez, isn’t this a bit over the top?

    • JJ says:

      03:18pm | 14/05/10

      As a childless tax payer, the way I see it is my taxes pay for people’s kids for the first 18 years of their life (baby bonus, family tax benefit, free school, etc). Now when I was a kid I got schooling but their was no baby bonus and the family endowment was very small compared to today, so I’m out of pocket there. Today, my taxes also pay for the pension. Now, when I hit pension age, I will have to live on my own super - the kids of today will not support me. So that is not even again. So that is why I feel like I am paying for both ends (kids and oldies) but was not and will not be afforded the same support in the future.

 

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