A health warning from an unlikely corner

Steely Dan says:

09:59am | 01/09/10

Good call.  Penn and Teller get some things completely wrong.  But at least they’re entertaining, even when they’re being just as nutty as the people they mock on Bullsh!t.

Rob says:

12:30pm | 01/09/10

Great call!! Thanks mate.

Chris L says:

03:29pm | 01/09/10

Peter, I don’t remember them busting any global warming myth. Are you talking about the energy crisis one perhaps?

My favourite is when they called BS on the myth that violent video games encourage violent behaviour.

LC says:

06:43pm | 31/03/11

Maybe, for the sake of balance, you’ll share their -correct- views on conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11, the Moon Landing and the JFK assassination, alien abductions, ESP, young-earth creationism, the death penalty, video game violence and the goings-on at Area 51?

Furthermore, climate skepticism is backed up by thousands of scientists and hundreds peer reviewed research papers. The “vaccines=autism” way of thinking was only backed up by one scientist’s study which has since been declared invalid.

By the way, are you a warmist trying to hijack the blog or simply a anti-vaxxer engaging in an ad-hominem?

hugh says:

09:59am | 01/09/10

yep - we used to have smallpox. Made a vaccine. Now it is erradicated.

Terrible thing these vaccines.

It changed your kids personality?? Hilarious.
Great science - my kids have different personalities - so it must have been the vaccination. What else would have done it?

Do EVERYONE a favour - vaccinate your kids!

bella starkey says:

10:04am | 01/09/10

You think because your kids have different personalities vaccines are bad?

I’m sure the parents of a baby who died of whooping cough will completely understand.

Kelly says:

10:06am | 01/09/10

Karen, you’ve not given much detail. Hoever, how did the reaction at 2 months and then 4 months impact on the child’s behaviour? What methodology did you use to connect behavioural issues with immunisation?
Have you resesarched other factors that could have influenced your child’s behaviour even without the vaccine rather than simply rely on the idea that your other kids are ‘normal’? Plenty of people have a child with an illness while the others are perfectly healthy.
Also, what research did you look at to make you well thought out and well researched decision?.

Richard says:

10:31am | 01/09/10

Yeah here we go~ attack the lady because she made an unconventional decision (her choice, not illegal), and the world didn’t end; in fact she experienced positive benefits from it. Experiental subjective evidence is valid in the real world you know, in fact more valid than any hypothetical double blind placebo tested evidence done by the pharmacuetical industry (with all their vested interess).

Ella says:

10:36am | 01/09/10

Yes, if one of your child has a bad reaction to vaccines then be wary about giving that child more vaccinations but you can’t draw the conclusion that vaccinations shouldn’t be given to other children from this. Thats like saying that eating peanuts is bad because there are children who are allergic to peanuts. 

The number of children who have a negative reaction to vaccines is tiny compared to the number of children who will be saved, and I speak as as someone who almost died though lack of vaccination (measles, which led to complication when I was 2).

Andy D says:

10:51am | 01/09/10

I find it hard to believe that someone who thinks a vaccination altered her child’s personality is capable of making “well thought out & well researched” decisions

Zeta says:

10:53am | 01/09/10

That’s pretty much the logic my parents used to ban me from watching Thundercats, as they felt it was negatively affecting my personality. They claimed their decision was well thought out and well researched too, but I didn’t see them sit down and watch a single episode of Thundercats. I was heart broken. I freaking loved Thundercats.

Years later I bought the box set and sat down and watched it and you know what? It’s not even a very good show. There’s not even an explanation of why they’re cats. At least the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles had that mutant ooze to explain why they’re mutants. The Thundercats just are. That raises philosophical questions no child should contemplate. Maybe my parents made the right decision.

Either way, they vaccinated me, so I lived long enough to know the terrible heartbreak of 1980s television not being as good when you hit your 20s.

Macon Paine says:

12:20pm | 01/09/10

@ Richard

Karen (who otherwise is probably a good mother) did not only make an unconventional decision she made an irresponsible, irrational & doltish decision. She traded immunity to horrific diseases for some ludicrus perceived improvement in personality. That is loonacy pure and simple, the links and video provided by Tory prove it, the fact that anti vaxers cant see that says a lot.

Rob says:

12:33pm | 01/09/10

Karen, I believe you and support you. Please don’t let rude comments from ignorant people upset you.

TheRealDave says:

01:27pm | 01/09/10

ummm as the father of 3 kids, the youngest turned one last month - how the hell would you notice any ‘personality’ changes at 2 and 4 months?? They eat, shit and sleep near 20 hours a day at that stage. All 3 of my kids felt ‘off’ for a few days to a week after their vaccinations, little bit of fever, runny nose etc I didn’t go racing for the ‘OMG Vaccinations are bad’ stick and risk their lives by not having any further vaccinations.

TW says:

02:08pm | 01/09/10

So what if Karen has made a decision that could possibly have fatal effects for her child?

She is the parent and it is her decision (and responsibility) to make, and make alone (or with husband/partner).

If the child, god forbid, dies down the line as a result of her actions (or inactions) she will bear the lions share of the responsibility for the child’s death.

Personally, I wouldn’t want to live with that if it happened, but some people are willing to risk it.

We live in a free country.

BarbaraT says:

02:14pm | 01/09/10

A lot of the problems stem from the multi-dose vaccinations where they combine multiple vaccines in one shot.  Some childrens systems can’t take the hit, and some become violently ill.  A nursing friend has seen the results on children brought in by their parents who had their children vaccinated a day or two prior.  You need to break up the vaccines into individual doses.

Alex says:

02:18pm | 01/09/10

@ Zeta - Love it!

Neil says:

03:13pm | 01/09/10

Wow Karen, your child had a bad (unspecified) reaction.  I had an aunt (now deceased) who had polio as a child, spent four years in hospital and wore a metal caliper for the rest of her life.

I know a lady who contracted polio as one of the last native cases in Australia in 1966 and lived for years in an iron lung.  It was only when they came up with the first portable respirators (on a large electric wheel chair) that she got some mobility back and even then every breath had to be done for her.  She died prematurely with post-polio syndrome.

Well Karen, there is what I call a real “bad reaction”.

Ronk says:

03:23pm | 01/09/10

Barbara T, your nursing friend wasn’t paying attention when they taught her about the immune system. Giving a vaccine isn’t making your body “take a hit”. A vaccine STIMULATES the immune system to work better. Your immune system has the capacity to produce antibodies to hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of different foreign proteins. Many of them simulatenously, it makes no difference. Vaccines are DEAD organisms or just a protein extracted from them, they cannot possibly infect you. The main cause of the (rare) reactions to vaccines is pain/infalmmation at teh injection site. Wghich is much LESS likely when 4 vaccines are given in one injection that when the little tyke gets jabbed 4 times separately.

TracyS says:

03:40pm | 01/09/10

Parents do have a choice about whether or not to vaccinate their children, and Karen is well within her rights to make this choice for her family.

I am, however, doubtful about the decision being “well thought out & well researched”. There is clear evidence showing the protection that vaccination provides against certain infectious diseases, and therefore the mortality and morbidity (death and illness) associated with these diseases, whereas the evidence for the link between vaccination and autism and behavioural problems is anecdotal and of poor scientific quality.  A “well researched” investigation would have discovered this, and a “well thought out” decision would have taken this into account.

Thorntonj@hotmail.com says:

09:56pm | 01/09/10

Doesn’t every two month old baby have a bit of a change? Maybe the docs and scientists felt that infants move from the first stage to the second at around 8 months. Ridiculous to link it to a vaccine which is just two or three viruses which occur in nature anyway.

My child is vaccinated. She didn’t walk until 22 months. Should I say the polio vaccine had an adverse affect? Or could it just be the combined genetic affect of two people who also walked late?

Tom says:

03:04am | 02/09/10

TW, generally I would agree with what you are saying, but the problem in the case of vaccinations is that it opens up others to infection. Vaccines are not 100% effective - I, for example, required 6 Hep B shots before I became immune. I was only aware of this because I had blood tests done. The Hep B shot is only effective about 90% of the time for one course of vaccination, hence there would be a lot of people who aren’t immune to the disease without being aware of that fact.

Normally this isn’t a problem, as so long as enough of the population are vaccinated there will be herd immunity. However, if enough people don’t vaccinate, there will be some people unwittingly exposed to infection due to the irresponsible and irrational decisions of selfish parents like Karen.

And before anyone accuses me of being a patsy for big pharma, how many cases of smallpox or polio have you heard about recently?

BT says:

11:23am | 01/09/10

Why infect a population with disease? To make billions of dollars by selling medication. To reap billions from donations in the “search for a cure”.

Zeta says:

11:35am | 01/09/10

@ BT - But using that logic, the vaccines would infect people with a disease they were selling a cure for. I could understand if they made every one impotent, and then we all needed gigantic viagra prescriptions. But they don’t. They supposedly make you autistic. Not a lot of money to be made in autism.

BT says:

12:38pm | 01/09/10

Glad to hear you don’t need a giant Viagra prescription Zeta - good for you son   My statement was a general one though - I don’t know wha what causes autism, but I can see the benefits for pharma co’s, the medical, insurance and other hangers on to gain from infecting the public with a myriad of diseases through mass vaccination programs.

Macon Paine says:

01:41pm | 01/09/10

BT you are arguing from ignorance. Use the link provided in the OP about autism:
http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html
If you had, you would know the first paragraph states: “We still don’t know what causes autism, but we have learned what doesn’t cause it.  Numerous studies have failed to show a link between autism and vaccines.”
Anyway you’ve completely missed the point. Vaccination is done to prevent people from coming down with diseases, by your logic the millions who have been innoculated against polio should be coming down with it. Look just go here and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases#Poliomyelitis_.28polio.29
This gives a brief overview of the irradication of polio and other diseases.
And do yourself a favour and read this: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars1.htm

BT says:

02:12pm | 01/09/10

Macon, for every lie to be believable it must contain a grain of truth. I am not saying that vaccinations don’t work. But did you ever stop to think that a vaccination that carries the smallpox virus for example, might be laden with a whole host of other undisclosed toxic substances? Similar to a seemingly harmless computer file is piggybacked by destructive computer viruses. Your foolish assumption that what is being administered to you is “for your own good” is poor judgement at best.

iansand says:

02:32pm | 01/09/10

If “they” wanted to make a few bucks out of smallpox, eradicating the disease seems ...  counterproductive.

BT says:

02:49pm | 01/09/10

I’m saying they could in theory introduce other diseases at the same time. Think about it. Do you know exactly what goes into a vaccine? Do you really put so much faith in a product that is directly injected into your body? They could be administering a small pox vaccination whilst injecting you with say the flu. The drug company is paid for the smallpox injection - with the added bonus of the infected person purchasing host of painkillers, cold & flu tablets, prescriptions for antibiotics (which doctors still prescribe even though antibiotics don’t cure the flu as they get kickbacks from the drug companies). I’m just saying it is possible that’s all. Not that it is fact.

Zeta says:

03:12pm | 01/09/10

@ BT - and for every conspiracy theory to be believed, they must also have grain of truth. In the anti-vaccination case, there really have been plans to use vaccinations for nefarious purposes.

In 1983, South Africa’s apartheid era president PW Botha authorised the creation of ‘Project Coast’, headed up his personal physician to create defensive and offensive chemical and biological weapons.

Much like the US, UK, and USSR, most of their initiatives were for small scale covert use - like those bad ass umbrellas with poison in the tips. The South African’s invented a beer can that could poison the drinker - which is a pretty uniquely Afrikaaner way of assassinating someone. ‘Wudcha liek a bier mete?’ Makes you wonder if ASIO ever had any luck with lethal thongs that would poison the wearer. Or a deadly pavlova. But I digress.

Where Project Coast really differed was they wanted large scale means of controlling the ‘population’. And by ‘population’ y’all best know they were talking about colored people. Or ‘blecks’.

One of the cooler things Coast came up with was a means to vaporise MDMA and dose large crowds of rioters with the drug. As another digression, much of the world’s MDMA stock was actually produced in South Africa and distributed by corrupt intelligence officials until the early ‘90s. So irony of ironies, the Peace Love Unity and Respect crowd were actually getting high on drugs manufactured by apartheid era fascists to be used against the black people they were directing their love and respect towards.

Anyway, Project Coast went for 7 years, and lead to all kinds of crazy conspiracy theories. Amongst them was that the apartheid Government invented Ebola / AIDS - both of which were around for a long time before Coast. But one theory that really took hold was that Project Coast was working on a disease that would only target black people, based on the false assumption there was a black people gene. Of course there is no black people gene. Exhibit A: Tiger Woods.

When Mandela created the Truth and Reconcilliation Commission, they brought the head of Project Coast, the impressively named ‘Wouter Basson’ to give evidence and he was eventually charged with crimes against humanity, charges that were quite recently dropped.

He confirmed many of the stories about MDMA use, the use of powerful muscle relaxants to assassinate anti-apartheid movement activists - but he did not give any evidence that might confirm the theory he’d been working on a virus to kill black people.

What he did confirm, was that Project Coast had supplied ‘Operation Dual’ - a plan to kill SA Defence Force members who posed a threat to the Government. Their method? Toxin laced vaccinations given to soldiers.

And so the myth was born. It’s since exploded to include AIDS conspiracies, the CIA, and even Saddam Hussein (Bassoon really did work with Hussein on some chemical weapons programs).

The truth of these things is always more interesting than the craziness of conspiracy theories.

Macon Paine says:

03:49pm | 01/09/10

BT I have to assume you didn’t bother to read any of the links, oh well give them enough rope….

“Macon, for every lie to be believable it must contain a grain of truth.”
Really? Taking your logic further does this mean you are saying lies such as 9/11 Troof, the Moonlanding Hoax, JFK Conspiracies, Roswell/Area 51, Holocaust denial etc could have a grain of truth to them? Turn it up BT people believe all sorts of crazy stuff without “a grain of truth”, for example creationism.

” I am not saying that vaccinations don’t work.”
Good to hear. What you are doing though is playing on unfounded fears about vaccinations, which the video and links destroy, simply because you appear to distrust big pharma. In both your previous posts you insinuate the only reason for vaccinations is to make money. Vaccines do not appear out of nothing, they are expensive to research and create. Companies make money out of them because they have a product which can save lives and prevent suffering therefore people and governments are prepared to pay for them.

“But did you ever stop to think that a vaccination that carries the smallpox virus for example, might be laden with a whole host of other undisclosed toxic substances?”
You do things everyday that have far more risk attached to them than the chance a vacine may have toxic substances, like driving a car for example. Anyway yes I have thought of this and I would still get my children vaccinated. The benefit (and scientific based evidence) vastly outweigh the risks.

“Your foolish assumption that what is being administered to you is “for your own good” is poor judgement at best.”
Poor judgement? Please, you ignore mountains of evidence to support vaccination and instead attack the motivations of the companies who make vaccines. I think that shows poor judgement.

BT says:

04:13pm | 01/09/10

Weak response Macon. Haven’t you heard of Porten Downs? Yeah, government’s are such caring institutions.

Seano says:

04:58pm | 01/09/10

BT - I thought Macon’s response was quite strong actually, certainly when compared to your conspiracy theory/scare mongering regarding “Porten Downs (sic)”. How do you justify liking vaccination and the vast drop in the rates of childhood disease and death that vaccination has brought with chemical warfare research? How can you do that in a sane way?

BT says:

11:04pm | 01/09/10

Drug companies don’t exactly broadcast their ingredients. So please take a look at this link and see what goes into their products http://www.rense.com/general59/vvac.htm
Please note that the common Rubella vaccination contains “human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue” and the small pox vaccine “phenol - a compound obtained by distillation of coal tar vesicle fluid from calf skins Engerix-B”. Also, the Hep A virus with it’s ” polysorbate 20 residual MRC5 proteins -human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue”, not to mention the others with monkey tissue and chick embryos etc. But hey, if you want to pump your kids bodies with that and other toxins to make you feel better go ahead. The Porton Downs reference was in regard to the manufacturing of disease Seano - you are rude but I’ll address your question. My point was in response to Macon who stated that “Companies make money out of them because they have a product which can save lives and prevent suffering therefore people and governments are prepared to pay for them.” Governments manufacture disease and private companies get the profits - don’t you see the obvious? Governments create a problem, companies create a “cure” and are granted government subsidies to pay for it all, and all those in the know make a profit.

Seano says:

05:35pm | 03/09/10

I don’t count conspiracy theoriests and their theories as sensible argument.

IMHO says:

11:51am | 01/09/10

Er…you’re making a joke…aren’t you Richard?

Richard…?

Earth to Richard?

marley says:

11:51am | 01/09/10

Actually, I don’t know of any reputable studies showing that acupuncture works.  And I don’t know of any showing that homeopathy works, either. 

And we may not live in a “Newtonian” world, but we sure as heck live in one in which science, not magic, should be the arbiter.

Trjn says:

12:11pm | 01/09/10

“I do find the kind of sneering cynicism and foul-mothed flaming that Penn Jillette has for people with unorthodox, open-minded views a bit narrow.”

There are two reasons for Penn’s approach here, the first is explained in the introduction to the very first episode of Bullshit. Quite simply, they get in legal trouble for calling someone a liar but they don’t if they call them rude names then they’re in the clear legally. The other reason is because it’s just more entertaining and that’s the main purpose of the show.

As for the whole placebo effect thing, the point of it is that it shows that whatever being tested does not have any effect that cannot be replicated by effectively no treatment at all. It shows that if something provides similar results to a placebo then it doesn’t actually work.

The default mindset of the sceptic is “prove it”, that doesn’t stifle creativity and progress, it stifles non-progress that looks interesting but does nothing. It’s a matter of trying to understand things, saying something works when you don’t understand what is going on is not progress, it’s just making things up to try and sound knowledgable.

Newtownian physics still apply, quantum mechanics don’t negate that, so trying to explain things with “it’s quantum” just shows you don’t understand physics and are trying to offer a psuedo scientific explanation for something.

If energy vibrations exist, that’s one thing. Showing that they exist and can be harnessed in a beneficial way is something entirely different. Electricity exists, but trying to run a current through someone’s chest to “humbly try to use this force” isn’t exactly a good idea.

HappyCynic says:

12:17pm | 01/09/10

Ummm you don’t know many skeptics do you?  The philosophical definition of a skeptic is someone who believes that nothing is certain except uncertainty.

Oh and sciencists in Britain have comprehensively and systematically debunked homeopathy as bullsh*t.  Homeopaths do nothing but try to obscure and obfuscate and practitioners of homeopathy have never adequately explained why their snake oil works better than the real stuff.  I think any homeopath who claims their medicines work better than placebos should be immediately charged with false and misleading conduct due to the fact that there is zero evidence to back up the claim.

Roja says:

01:05pm | 01/09/10

Richard Dawkins covers homeopathy in one of his doco’s - explaining why it’s bullshit by why it works in some cases (strangely about as many cases as a placebo works).  Largely it’s because a Doctor will give you 5 minutes and shuffle you out the door, while you get 30 minutes and complete attention from a homeopath.  That attention makes the patient more confident in the homeopath, than a qualified medical doctor.

His demonstration of how homeopathy claims to “work”, by demonstrating the comparitive volumes of liquid is well worth it (would it be a single drop in this bath ?  No.  Would it be a drop in this olypic size pool?  No.  Would it be a drop in the entire Atlantic ocean….)

Richard says:

02:25pm | 01/09/10

Oh don’t mind me, I can get carried away a bit sometimes, and I won’t try and pretend that I’m a physicist or anything, but I do think its unfair to label all those disciplines that are listed onPeriodic Table of Irrational Nonsense as “psuedo-science” necessarily.

My thinking however is strongly influenced by the physicist Fritjof Capra, author of ‘the Tao of Physics’. He pushes for western society to abandon conventional linear thought and the mechanistic views of Descartes, refuting the reductionistic Cartesian view that everything can be studied in parts to understand the whole and encouraging a holistic approach.

I don’t understand quantum physics, you right; but neither do I think that most conventional, linear thinking “sceptics” have grasped the full extent of the possibilities implied by quantum physics for our conceptual frameworks of reality. I do wish to remain open-minded though, because “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

Trjn says:

02:57pm | 01/09/10

Until it can be backed up with evidence, anything that claims effectiveness through the disguise of misunderstood principles is psuedoscience.

The reason we stick to the scientific principles for this sort of thing is because it works.

Here’s a simple thought though. Those that understand quantum mechanics are using that understanding to further the applications of it.

And if you’re going to talk about something, it helps to do more than just copying and pasting from Wikipedia. “Capra pushes for western society to abandon conventional linear thought and the mechanistic views of Descartes. Critiquing the reductionistic Cartesian view that everything can be studied in parts to understand the whole, Capra encourages his readers to take a holistic approach.” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritjof_Capra

Richard says:

04:10pm | 01/09/10

Very good Trjn, thankyou for looking into the points I made and tracking down the wikipedia quote that I paraphrased. I hope that you will further investigate this matter and thus realise that there is already compelling, reputuble and irrefutable evidence available for the efficacy of the discipline I have mentioned (acupuncture that is, I can’t speak about homeopathy because I know very little about it; but that doesn’t mean I am going to just dismiss it out of hand).

So we know it works, but why does it work? I have merely suggested that quantum mechanics may help us answer this, and I referenced the works of Fritjof Capra to give that suggestion extra weight (yes, using wikipedia, an open-source collarboration written by innumerable anonymous authors and made freely available to all on the internet).

Here’s a thought though, maybe people with open minds are more able to understand quantum mechanics and use that understanding to further the applications of it (or indeed use that understanding to explain hithero mysterious applications such as acupuncture that modern medical science is currently unable to fully quantify).

Markus says:

01:14pm | 01/09/10

A few years ago ,while wondering if anorexia or bulimia existed in 3rd world countries, what I found seemed to show correlations between standard of living and occurence of mental illness - things like depression, anxiety and chronic fatigue syndrome.
I guess it makes sense that these would be less common in poulations where food, water and basic hygiene are not a given each day as they are here.

Ronk says:

10:57am | 03/09/10

No it’s worse. The Christian Scientists at least only harm themselves and their own children. Parents who refuse to have their kids vaccinated harm and kill other children and adults (babies too young to be immunised yet, and people who are medically unable to be vaccinated because they have diseases of the immune system or are on immunosuppressive drugs).

Elphaba says:

12:47pm | 03/09/10

You’re absolutey right, Ronk.  It is worse. 

Eleanor says:

04:55pm | 01/09/10

“The problem with the anti-vac movement isn’t just the pure ignorance they’re spreading, it’s the fact that communities will stop having “herd immunity” where the disease cannot exist because there is no one who can become ill to it, this protects children too young to be vaccinated from the particular disease.”

As Sheldon would say - Bazinga! I wouldn’t have a single issue with the anti-vaxxers if the implications of their actions were restricted to their child only. They wanna gamble with their own child’s life - go right ahead. The fact remains though, that we’re dealing with highly contagious diseases. For example, infants aren’t administered the DTP immunisation until 3 months of age. That means for their first three months of life, they’re vulnerable to whooping cough and are solely relying on those around them to not pass on the disease. Then some non-immunised 12 year old, who’s fit enough to to fight off pertussis, coughs on the non-immunised infant, and it’s pretty much a death sentence for the infant.

Missing sense of humour says:

04:10pm | 01/09/10

Scrubs is a comedy, not meant to be taken seriously (i.e The tackling Alzheimer’s patient). Just thought I’d point that out. I personally have never viewed scrubs as a factual source of medical information. I think the other two are also fiction….......yep fiction, though has your family tried watching ER? the early epidsodes were supposed to be relatively accurate in terms of medical info. Though you may have a point, the anti vac movement may well source their info from tv shows.

Kordez says:

04:36pm | 01/09/10

@Missing sense of humour, that was kinda the point.. it is comical that anyone would suggest new born vaccination was a conspiracy.

Seano says:

05:00pm | 01/09/10

My wife who’s a doctor likes to watch House and try to beat him to the diagnosis. I play poker.

Kordez says:

08:18pm | 01/09/10

@Seano, House plays poker while diagnosing.. =P

Ryan says:

05:48pm | 01/09/10

Yes, yes you are so much smarter than the 1000’s of qualified doctors and pharmacologists who are involved in the anti-vaccination crowd, must be thicko “flat earthers” with IQ’s far greater than you could ever dream of.

I suppose you would be happy to take Thalidomide while pregnant, they said it was safe remember.

Tom says:

03:17am | 02/09/10

Ryan, do these doctors and pharmacologists have names? Have they published peer reviewed papers in reputable medical journals that haven’t been comprehensively debunked (i.e. the Lancet paper on the link between vaccines and autism doesn’t count)?

I suppose its just a huge conspiracy led by big pharma and the medical profession that the rates of infection for every disease for which a vaccine has been introduced for has fallen to next to zero in Western countries.

Ronk says:

09:25am | 03/09/10

I feel pretty safe in saying that among the millions of qualified doctors and pharmacologists in the world, there is not even one who thinks that vaccination is a bad idea.

Macon Paine says:

08:03pm | 01/09/10

Yep it’s hilarious here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJuf6G5P2_s