A football field is no place for nutty religious fanaticism

nihonin says:

07:30am | 17/01/12

Exactly Parlay, to each their own, if he’s not in your face preaching to you, why be offended, it’s not hurting you.  Maybe he feels a hi 5 or little dance after each success isn’t his thing.

Y2J says:

07:47am | 17/01/12

“To each their own, why would you care?”

Because either it’s moronic to think God cares about what happens on a sporting field with all the attrocities going on in the world or God is a real arsehole.

It’s also quite silly how sports people love to thank God for their successes but he/she gets no credit for their failures. It’s a rigged game.

“He still makes a few dollars more than you Ant. “

So? So I persume does Justin Beiber and he’s a talentless nurk.

“Those that ‘can’t’ write shitty online blogs huh or mock the dead? “

Are you trying to demonstrate your own point?

JT says:

08:26am | 17/01/12

To all the people in support of this (or who are ok with it)...I’m guessing you’d also be ok with an Australian muslim player conducting that kneel-bowdown muslim prayer on the cricket pitch every single time before he starts batting?

Or after scoring every try in nrl?

Better if its all just left out of sport…

Tim says:

08:38am | 17/01/12

JT,
have you heard of Hasim El Masri?
He wasn’t shy about his Muslim faith.
And fans didn’t really care.

SimonFromLakemba says:

09:19am | 17/01/12

@Tim

Hazem**

He wasn’t in your face, I never saw him pray on the field.

He cant help it if people want to write stories on him for being Muslim and adhering to Eid.

void says:

09:22am | 17/01/12

JT, let me point out the other side of your argument.  Personally, I couldn’t be bothered by it, and I doubt many others would be either, but if an Australian Muslim player conducted a little prayer on the field, we wouldn’t be seeing articles in The Punch calling him out for it.

The Ronin says:

09:23am | 17/01/12

“He still makes a few dollars more than you Ant.  Maybe there’s a reason why.”
Because he’s really good at playing football in a country where really good footballers get well paid. It’s got nothing to do with being charged by Gof to play really good football.

Y2J says:

09:30am | 17/01/12

@Tim - but he didn’t make a show it every time he kicked a goal.

Shane From Melbourne says:

09:34am | 17/01/12

@Parlay- I wonder about those that read and respond to “shitty online blogs”. Still trying to figure out which dead is being mocked though. Jesus? Elvis? Current Republican candidates?

ShamWow says:

09:34am | 17/01/12

@JT doesn’t bother me.

Bertrand says:

09:39am | 17/01/12

I think the point of the article was more how public religiousness has become the norm in America.

Interestingly, the bible warns against this type of thing and beseeches its followers to be private about their beliefs: “When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get.” (Matthew 6:5)

subotic says:

10:06am | 17/01/12

@Y2J, on behalf of all the talentless nurks, I spit in your general direction.

Talentless nurks keep this world occupied and amused so we don’t have to think too much…..

Y2J says:

10:21am | 17/01/12

@subotic - Baby, baby oooooohhhhh…

MarkS says:

10:21am | 17/01/12

The only problem I see here is that public displays of faith become a tool to force others to act in the same way. i.e. You cannot be a real believer because you do not publically act as a believer. While many, indeed maybe most would prefer to keep their praying private. I often think that the pious display common in the US is from this form of social pressure.

Yuri says:

10:46am | 17/01/12

@Shane

Parlay was, I believe, referring to Ant’s tasteless, and much too soon article from yesterday - The Ballad of Giglio Isle

Bizzle says:

12:06pm | 17/01/12

Sounds like Ant is still angry at god about the lack of hair on his head.

Tebow has been praying like that on the field since his college days, it’s not a publicity stunt, it’s just a game-day ritual (like NRL players wearing the same underwear every game during a season, which Ant probably would sniff if given the chance).

I would say that most people that are “Tebowing” are either mocking him or just doing it to fit in.  I highly doubt that there are many people out there “Tebowing” trying to connect with god.

Maybe Ant should start “Warnie-ing” and get down to advance hair.

Steggz says:

12:27pm | 17/01/12

@Bertrand: Nice try on the Bible quote, but you missed the point. It’s about why you pray where you do, not about where. Jesus says to pray because you are seeking to communicate with God, not to put on a show.

Kheiron says:

12:35pm | 17/01/12

I’m an atheist and I don’t care if sportsmen consume a bag of oreos after a touchdown in thanks for the divine blessing of the cookie monster.
Express yourself how you want.
So long as they’re not imposing belief or expectation on others, go nuts.

Bertrand says:

01:34pm | 17/01/12

@Steggz - how on earth do you think I missed the point? This article is highlighting how religion in America is about being seen as religious - about putting on a show for everyone by wearing your religion on your sleeve.

This is exactly what the quote I used is saying not to do.

My big issue with Christianity in its current form is that it has nothing to do with the teaching of Jesus. If we are to accept the idea that there was a ma called Jesus and that the teachings he handed down are portrayed accurately in the bible, then we need to see him as someone who came to shake up the religious establishment.

He preached against the Pharisees (who definitely stand out as the ‘bad guys’ in the 4 gospels) who tried to force their religious moralism down the throats of everyone else and who ‘wore’ their religion in public.

He preached a message of non-judgmentalism and acceptance and love of the sinners in society.

He hated the religious profiteers (who can forget the story of Jesus destroying the money-changers tables at the temple and driving them out with a stick).

The Christian right in America (and their Hillsong off-shoots in Australia) are the modern version of the Pharisees and money-changers.

Mark says:

02:47pm | 17/01/12

Need any more polish for your jackboots Anthony?

Peace_Out says:

03:30pm | 17/01/12

Its not that huge of a deal you just have to get over it. God is apart of america’s currency it says so on it’s dollar. Go mock that if you have a problem. Otherwise this article is appropriately placed…in “your opinion” pile and not in responsible journalism

doug z says:

03:52pm | 17/01/12

so Steggz, why does Tebow pray where he does, and how he does?  Why not say a quiet prayer before and after the game, as opposed to displaying your piety to the world?  “Thank you god for making me talented and very, very rich, and thank you for being a football fan, and especially for being a Broncos fan, and thank you for loving me more than my opponents.  Amen”. 
I’m on Bertand’s side of this debate.

Servaas says:

08:22pm | 17/01/12

@Bertrand
“Interestingly, the bible warns against this type of thing and beseeches its followers to be private about their beliefs: “When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get.” (Matthew 6:5) “

True, but Tebow is no hypocrite - he admits his failings and walk the talk off the field. His prayers are not attempts to make people think well of him, his on-field prayers are simply extentions of what he does off-the field. he is no dualist, keeping his faith for certain aspects of his life, he beleives that all of life is about God and for God’s glory.

Bertrand says:

10:13pm | 17/01/12

@Servaas - Teebow could say a prayer on field in his head without going through the theatrics. The whole thing is to be seen as saying a prayer. Herein lies the issue. If Teebow really was about glorifying god, he would follow god’s instructions on prayer - don’t be theatrical about it. Or does he not actually believe what Jesus preached? Was Jesus wrong on this? Can Christians pick and choose. In a broader context, was Jesus’s admonition to love your enemy wrong? Was his devotion to the prostitutes and sinners erring too far on the side of liberalism (let’s not forget that Teebow refuses to stand up for things like gay rights… Jesus wouldn’t have… he would have been in the gay bar telling the gays that god loves them and they are still good people).

But this article’s not *really* about Teebow anyway; it’s about the whole ‘being seen to be religious’ issue. Teebow is used as an example, a way to tie the article together. At the end of the day the article is saying, ‘fine, do your prayers, have your beliefs, worship your god, but don’t feel the need to tell everyone how religious you are by making it obvious that you are doing such things.’

Stu says:

11:08pm | 17/01/12

The current brand of nutty christianity in America that’ didn’t exist until 20 odd years ago is the worst of all religions. I have no problem with Hazem El Magic praying. I deny these fucking Evangelical pseudo christians who hate more than anyone! How is it christian to hate?

Servaas says:

06:29am | 18/01/12

@Bertrand
Then it is a very strabge article indeed, telling people not to tell others how religious they are. Why bring Tebow into it then, he’s not telling people how religious he is. He is confessing his faith and preaching the gospel. On gay rights, i’m sure he will speak out against hatred against homosexuals if the topic arises but surely one man can’t cover all bases all the time?

Where did Jesus teach against Tebow’s praying methods, we have settled the ‘praying in the streets thing’ I thought. he preached against hypocrisy, not against praying in the street per se.

Personally I agree with all that Jesus said, but not necessarily with words He supposedly said according to various bibel interpreters.

acotrel says:

06:55am | 17/01/12

Some things are so bad that they are good! -  Love the shot of the soldier praying before going out to kill !

Parlay says:

07:12am | 17/01/12

What like praying for his safe return to his wife and kids? (Won’t mention replying to your own post)

Mahhrat says:

08:23am | 17/01/12

@Parlay, it’s times like this when I have to ask you a question:

Exactly what part of “Thou Shalt Not Kill” don’t you understand?

thatmosis says:

08:25am | 17/01/12

Yes its funny isnt it, both sides of a conflict goes to religious services before going out and killing as many of the enemy as possible. Now if both sides have the same religion does God toss a penny in the air and decide which one to back on the strength of that. What a bunch of morons. Thats why I used to get extra duties in the Army because I told them I didnt believe in their religious crap and my job was just to kill the enemy no matter what his or her religion.
If an article is going to be written along these lines then all religious tokens, manifestations, dress and whatever should be ridiculed by the author and not just pick on some poor deluded person for being a twit. Must be even handed on these things or leave it alone.

Parlay says:

09:00am | 17/01/12

@Mahhrat

Do you think all soldiers have a say on whether they want to be or where they are deployed?

Do you think they then have a say on what they will do, once on the battlefield, no matter their religious beliefs?

Ando says:

10:10am | 17/01/12

Parlay,
Do you think a soldier might be aware that their job may involve killing someone? Do you think Jesus was unclear with Thou shalt not kill and turn the other cheek. Do you think those requests are not practical in the real word? I do but I’m not a christian.

Mahhrat says:

10:16am | 17/01/12

@Parlay - don’t care, and don’t care.

I’ll ask again:  What part of “Thou Shalt Not Kill” don’t you understand?

It’s pretty simple.  It is a core - amongst just 10 - commandment from God.  Don’t kill.  Ever.  No reason, no where, no how, just don’t. kill. people.

Good advice to live by, theoretically. 

Presuming our soldier was not conscripted, what part of “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is hard to understand?

Parlay says:

10:21am | 17/01/12

@Ando

Do you understand the demographics of the US Services?

acotrel says:

10:23am | 17/01/12

@Ando
‘Do you think a soldier might be aware that their job may involve killing someone?’

They might know it, but the hardest thing is to get a soldier to kill someone. If they are being shot at, the incentive might be there….. In the extreme, as happened with Australians in some WW1 firefights, it became ‘take no prisoners’.

Parlay says:

10:34am | 17/01/12

@Mahhrat

Since you don’t care, I don’t care what you have to say.

Luce says:

10:49am | 17/01/12

@ Parlay, they certainly had a choice in whether to join the military. Why join if you’re not willing to carry out the duties?

Parlay says:

11:01am | 17/01/12

@Luce

Many of them don’t have a choice, it’s the only choice.

TheRealDave says:

11:08am | 17/01/12

I love the fact how its a single soldier praying…..whislt all the rest are busy doing the jobs…..yet we all focus on the one and paint them all the same…

Ando says:

11:22am | 17/01/12

Parlay,
I’m not sure why you ask. Maybe comment on my questions first and mention why demographics is relevant in your answer.

Luce says:

11:37am | 17/01/12

I was under the impression the US doesn’t have conscription. So where does the lack of choice come in?

Ando says:

11:42am | 17/01/12

TheRealDave says,
“yet we all focus on the one and paint them all the same… “
Hang on, whats with the we.

Parlay says:

12:05pm | 17/01/12

@Ando/Luce

For many of the troops the military is the only way out of poverty.

So despite their religious convictions, they have no choice.

Most of these warriors are just kids, who have no clue what they are getting into.

De-Loached says:

12:17pm | 17/01/12

The commandment is “Thou Shalt not Murder”. The bible is talking about unlawful killing here. Any look at the Old Testament will see many examples of God commanding The Israelites to kill, and kill quite violently at that. That was lawful, because God ordained it. Killing because one is ordered to in the context of war is not the same as killing with malice aforethought w/regards to a specific person like murder is. We might look back at the mass killings of the OT and say “what a terrible being God is…yada yada” but if you examine the context and know the history (something 99% of so called “expert” bible bashers and new age “moralists” don’t do) you’d see that such acts were necessary for the survival of God’s people and were also done to demonstrate his power (eg. Joshua at Jericho). Let’s also not forget the fact that if God is God…well…he’s God - just because you don’t like him doesn’t mean he either doesn’t exist or, and here’s the big or, doesn’t mean that you’re not going to have to face up to him at some stage. Try not to forget that.

Mahhrat says:

01:34pm | 17/01/12

@Parlay, I’m not interested in whether you care what I have to say, I’m interested in your answer to my question.

Nothing you have so far said is an answer. 

Since you want to get into a logic debate with me though, I’m happy to oblige:

Both of your questions to me are irrelevant.  A soldier is not conscripted, he volunteers.  Any social, financial or like factors are not relevant to this discussion, despite your efforts to the contrary.

The fact remains that God said, ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill”.  A soldier, may they long be respected, stand on the wall, prepared to kill so that I don’t have to.  That is also irrelevant.

I have no problem with a soldier believing in a Deity.  I do have a problem with you suggesting it is somehow not a gross hypocrisy.

You can’t call yourself a members of a group and then only take up the bits you like.  It’d be like me joining a soccer club and then only playing, refusing to train.  You need to contribute properly or not at all.

Bruce says:

02:36pm | 17/01/12

@Mahrat, it’s not “thou shalt not kill”; it’s “thou shalt not murder”.  Big difference.  Murder is the unjustified, intentional killing of another human being.  I’m not going to argue about whether or not this is a just war, but killing in a just war is completely justifiable from a christian point of view.  Next time you quote scripture, try to get it right

Luce says:

03:14pm | 17/01/12

De-Loached, if god is as powerful as is claimed, he wouldn’t need to commit genocide, or order others to commit genocide to ensure the survival of his chosen people. In this instance he is either weaker than some would claim, or malevolent. If he is the former, why follow him? If he is the latter, then he is not a supreme moral being, and again the question arises, why follow him?

I don’t believe he exists because I see no evidence for his existence in the world around me. If I face him when I die, at the very least I can say I never lied or faked belief to get on his good side. And if he sends me to hell as a result, all I can say is at least I’ll have more interesting company to spend eternity with.

Andrew says:

04:30pm | 17/01/12

Hey De-Loached, here’s something you should remember: just because you believe in something that is ridiculously improbable and has no evidence to support it, doesn’t mean that’s it’s true.  And when you *do* believe in ridiculous, improbably things that are unsupported by any evidence, and cause massive social harm, then rational and intelligent people are going to mock you and not respect you.  Remember that!

VVS says:

08:47am | 17/01/12

A service… or a “service”... if you know what I mean… and you do, don’t you? Disgusting.

ba'al says:

09:45am | 17/01/12

I agree with stephen. Ant made jokes whilst they were still looking for the bodies. Disgusting article.
Now he mocks someone for ritual and faith, both important aspects of the human condition. Ant resorts to mocking i assume becuase he lacks the intellectual rigour to actually make a point.
I am a non thiest but I also try and display empathy which Ant has failed to do on more than one occasion.

dancan says:

10:21am | 17/01/12

@Stephen - may be the people on that ship should have just Tebow’d?

Stephen says:

10:22am | 17/01/12

No better than Kyle Sandilands really.

Rose says:

10:46am | 17/01/12

Ant showed his true character in that piece yesterday and quite frankly, it showed him to be absolutely lacking in empathy, compassion, respect or decency.Anything h writes about Sandilands from here on in is done in the knowledge that he absolutely lost any moral high ground he may have thought he had. This piece today, virtually demanding that sports people follow his own guidelines as to what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour shows that he is incapable of just letting others be. This Tebow thing is completely irrelevant and 100% harmless and yet he has to mock those that do it, why? This piece says more about Ant’s ignorance than anything else.

Shane* says:

01:46pm | 17/01/12

Spot on Stephen., just don’t expect Sharwood to acknowledge your concern.

Last year I called him out on using the 2008 Ljegun pipeline explosion as a punchline. Hundreds died. I had to chase him to other articles to get a response, and when he finally responded, it was a sarcastic and smarmy deflection rather than acknowledging that perhaps, maybe, it had been in poor taste.

acotrel says:

07:02am | 17/01/12

I wonder if God places a few bets with the bookies before giving his help to the praying footy players ?

Y2J says:

07:54am | 17/01/12

The onion summed up Tebow’s brief run of “form” (expect him to disappear next season) with the headline…

“Tebow’s success inspiring other teams to start shitty quarter backs”.

SimonFromLakemba says:

09:24am | 17/01/12

He had a few good games and everyone jumped on his back. He got his arse handed to him by the Patriots on the weekend.

I actually don’t have a huge issue with him as he does a lot for charity, I’m just against in your face religion.

Tedd says:

09:43am | 17/01/12

Nathan,
appealing to notions of age, manner, or form are unnecessary red herrings that other non-religious ppl also exhibit.

Your point about his own personal benefit is relevant - others don’t make such a public show of such egocentricity.

VVS says:

11:17am | 17/01/12

The Patriots did flog them something stupid…

mark says:

12:39pm | 17/01/12

@simonfromlakemba
read up on the “charity” tebow works for. not exactly inclusive and/or charitable. some may say they are a religious hate group.
the Taliban pushed their agenda with a gun, while tebows group used the Western world equivalent, Prime Time TV.

Niner Fan says:

01:49pm | 17/01/12

Form quarterback of the NFL…?  Exactly which games have you been watching Nathan???  The guy can’t throw consistantly at all, and more often than not looks like a deer caught in the headlights with a half decent pass rush coming at him.  Yeah, he won a playoff game last week in OT, but that was more down to some bizarre gameplanning / playcalling by the Steelers, as well as missing 3 of their best defenders for the game.
As long as Denver start Tebow, they won’t win a superbowl.

Giselle says:

02:28pm | 17/01/12

Form Quarterback of the NFL…....... I think Brady would have something to say about that.

Parlay says:

07:00am | 17/01/12

If you knew anything about the player, you would know that he is clear that the Lord hasn’t given him ‘sports enhanced powers’.  He specifically denies it.  Try and have an idea of the subject before you comment.

acotrel says:

07:11am | 17/01/12

@Parlay
He is probably praying that the other players won’t molest him ?

Nathan says:

07:14am | 17/01/12

@Parlay
Spot on the money with that one.

Ripa says:

07:49am | 17/01/12

Craig its people not religion itself that has been the cause of misery, and when you talk about misery through history, dont forget to include socialism/communism, as it is the single biggest cause of misery and death.

Craig says:

08:47am | 17/01/12

Parlay, what he denies and what we actually see are two different things. Remember the adage” actions speak louder then words”.

acotrel says:

09:23am | 17/01/12

@Ripa
’ dont forget to include socialism/communism, as it is the single biggest cause of misery and death. ‘

Are you including the Spanish invasion of the Americas in that, or don’t the Indians count ?

Ando says:

10:01am | 17/01/12

Parlay,
Why does he only do it when he’s winning

Parlay says:

10:06am | 17/01/12

Oh I didn’t realise you knew everything Craig.  Even what people were thinking half a world away.

Bev says:

10:16am | 17/01/12

acotrel says:09:23am | 17/01/12

Are you including the Spanish invasion of the Americas in that, or don’t the Indians count ?

I would suggest socialism/communism is by far the biggest killer/ misery bringer.  Produce figures to prove me wrong (If you can)

Parlay says:

10:26am | 17/01/12

@Ando

He does it before every game.  Again someone commenting without having a clue what is going on.  Well done!

Austin 3:16 says:

11:15am | 17/01/12

Hey Bev,

You’re making the suggestion, you produce the figures.

Ando says:

11:51am | 17/01/12

Parlay,
He does it before the game, he does it after a touchdown and he does it after a win. He doesn’t do it after a loss.

I asked why doesn’t he do it after a win. I didn’t ask whether he does it before a game.

Shane From Melbourne says:

01:12pm | 17/01/12

@Bev- Actually no Christianity was by far the single biggest source of misery and death- Taiping Rebellion, 20 million dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

Richard says:

08:37pm | 17/01/12

Wrong Shane, Christianity wasn’t the source of the Taiping Rebellion, the source of the Taiping Rebellion was a delusional failed bureaucrat, Hong Xiuquan, who thought he was the “Son of Heaven”, Jesus’ younger brother. He was certifiably insane, and its ludicrous to try and hold the philosophy of Christianity to blame for the lunacy of one lone man.

Like I said the other day, Christianity is about one thing and one thing only: “Love thy neighbour”. Why do you insist on persisting with your baseless and irrational hatred of such a lovely philosophy? Honestly, I swear I think you just to it to be cool, because Melbourne is the capital of such left-wing wankiness, and you’ve been affected by in sub-consciously.

Katel says:

11:23am | 17/01/12

Pretty much the tone of the article…  Conform or shut up.

Mike says:

01:53pm | 17/01/12

Exactly! so if we like dropping C bombs in front of you then you wont mind either will you Tim. Maybe teenage snogging in public, maybe petting in a family restaurant?  You are bound to find an exception somewhere in there and then you too can write about it if you like.  Thats all this article is.

Tez says:

07:59am | 17/01/12

So as a Christian, if a new group of Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist etc chaplins started at you kids school, and started trying to convert the kids (although they said they were only helping the kids) you would approve and be happy?
Well thats how I feel as an atheist.
Keep your religion to yourself.

Kebabpete says:

08:07am | 17/01/12

As a rule, Atheists don’t go around promoting atheism. We generally just shut up and get on with life. Why can’t the religious nut bags just do the same thing?

Markus says:

08:47am | 17/01/12

@Kebabpete, on the contrary, I’ve found that most atheists I’ve met (and I went to one of the biggest hipster unis in the country, so it is quite a lot) feel the constant need to smugly belittle and deride anyone who shows even a semblance of belief in anything.

On the topic of reason, some had no knowledge of either side of the argument, not even their own stance, short of “haha sky fairies lolz”.

How can you spot an atheist? Oh never mind, they just told you.

void says:

09:33am | 17/01/12

Kebabpete, I agree with your summary of Atheists as it matches the attitudes of those that I know in person.  However, that same summary couldn’t contrast more to the majority of Atheist attitudes shown here in the comments from day to day.

Then I have to remind myself that for every person who comments, there are many people who, for better or for worse, don’t.

Tubesteak says:

09:52am | 17/01/12

When you have science, fact and logic on your side everything is readonable by that very definition.

Those that want to believe in superstition and fairyrales deserve to be mocked as the indoctrinated and ignorant sheep they are

Religion should be destroyed with a decent education system

Chris L says:

10:00am | 17/01/12

Dave, you’ll usually find that atheists speaking their mind are doing so in response to religious advertising, such as this case with Tebow.

Personally I don’t find public displayed of religion offensive, but then again I’m ok with public nudity as well.

Kebabpete says:

10:01am | 17/01/12

@Markus - “I’ve found that most atheists I’ve met (and I went to one of the biggest hipster unis in the country, so it is quite a lot) feel the constant need to smugly belittle and deride anyone who shows even a semblance of belief in anything.”

So what you’re saying is that they are showing their religious side first. Hence the problem. Stop showing even a semblance of it and it wont be a problem.

Markus says:

10:28am | 17/01/12

Don’t talk to anyone, ever, even if they specifically ask you your opinion on something, just in case they turn out to be an abusive, hypocritical dick.

A fantastic life lesson for everyone there…

acotrel says:

10:29am | 17/01/12

@Markus
I don’t know if I’m an ‘atheist’ !  I just have no interest in religion.  I’m not a ‘joiner’ or even a ‘believer’ if the evidence is not there.  So what is my label this week ? Am I a ‘free thinker’ ?

acotrel says:

10:35am | 17/01/12

@Markus
The only time I take an interest in people like you, is when their lack of proactive risk management constitutes gross negligence !

Al says:

10:52am | 17/01/12

acotrel re: “I don’t know if I’m an ‘atheist’ !  I just have no interest in religion.  I’m not a ‘joiner’ or even a ‘believer’ if the evidence is not there.  So what is my label this week ? Am I a ‘free thinker’ ?”

Agnostic. Don’t believe there is evidence for or against the existence of a God/s (or Goddess) and/or that the religons don’t have the whole/right answer to the question of a divine power.

Patricia says:

10:56am | 17/01/12

I couldn’t agree more. The sexual reference was way out of context. They must be hurting for talented writers.

SimonFromLakemba says:

11:03am | 17/01/12

@Markus

Living where I live in Sydney, I had some Christians came knocking on my door about 2 weeks ago, saying no wasn’t enough they had to keep pushing the point and trying to get me to take some book. I basically told them they were in the wrong suburb for that, but gave them credit for trying anyhow.

Markus says:

11:09am | 17/01/12

‘People like me’, acotrel? And what ‘people’ would those be?

I don’t even believe in God, I just can’t stand the rampant hypocricy, double standards and out and out BS that spews forth from self-proclaimed progressives.

Mrsydney says:

02:18pm | 17/01/12

Dave, how can you wear atheism on your sleeve? Its not a dogma or set of rules governing your lifestyle, you just choose to ignore religion. Reason is a better choice than superstition indoctrination, guilt and repression, all the domain of the religious. Tebow’s overt religiousity is vulgar, as are extremes of anything. Thats the problem with extremes, religion being the worst, these people need some balance in their lives.

LJ Dots says:

08:14pm | 17/01/12

@Dave. Tez made some good points which I have not heard you respond to. Would you be ok if the Government approved and funded another religion (take your pick of religions here) who were trying to convert you or your children at school.

acotrel says:

07:45am | 17/01/12

I think they should throw a bucket of water over him ! It’s like carrying a St Christopher’s medal in the cockpit of an aircraft ! There are a few motorcycle riders who go to the Isle Of Man, and pray to the fairies before racing on the world’s most dangerous circuit.  There is no substitute for a bit of risk management ! In fact if I’d had seen someone doing this bullshit in one very hazardous job I once had, I’d have sacked them on the spot !

marley says:

09:01am | 17/01/12

@acotrel - so, you’re in favour of assaulting someone for expressing his religious beliefs.  Ever heard of freedom of speech and freedom of religion?  Most of us kind of value those two little gems of our social and political history, even if we don’t actually follow a religion ourselves.

Tebow’s expression of unthinking fervour for his religion may not be to your taste;  your expressions of unthinking fervour for the ALP are not to mine.  But you both have the right to express them.

acotrel says:

11:00am | 17/01/12

@ marley
Thanks for that , I was beginning to behave like a christian !

Finn says:

11:13am | 17/01/12

Marley, get the phrase right. It’s “freedom FROM religion”, meaning no governmental agency can make a sanctioned religion.

Mark says:

12:15pm | 17/01/12

Finn- I hope you’re joking
Alcotrel- You can only try to disguise idiocy with humour for so long. Frankly, these last two efforts have been woeful.

marley says:

07:19pm | 17/01/12

@Finn - “The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth”
 

No, not freedom from religion, freedom of religion.  The state will neither impose nor prohibit the expression of religion.

acotrel says:

07:58am | 17/01/12

They should probably hold a mirror in front of his mouth to see if he’s still breathing ? God might have paid him a visit !

acotrel says:

09:27am | 17/01/12

They wouldn’t have gotten away with doing that in Paris in 1890 when the Jesuits and the army were in control !

SimonFromLakemba says:

09:28am | 17/01/12

You just dislike Muslims, every opinion piece you write is paying them out. Difference is, we are in Australia what Muslims do in France is none of our concern.

The only real Muslim we have had playing sport in the mainstream was Hazem El Masri and he turned out to be one of the nicest guys to play NRL.

Shane From Melbourne says:

10:54am | 17/01/12

Sorry, Islamophobia is on Mondays, even if you have to insert it some random article. Today it is the Christians and Refugees. Tomorrow it is Sinophobia. Global Warming on Fridays. Politicians are fair game any day on the week. You’ll never make a good Puncher if you don’t keep your mocking priorities straight….....

Tell It Like It Is says:

10:57am | 17/01/12

Well, I guess you could argue that Tebowing in the U.S.is “none of our concern” either. As far as your comment @SimonfromLakemba “you just dislike Muslims” I am not sure if you are directing that to me or the author of the article. Certainly, not true of me. I neither have any truck with anyone’s religious belief or practices as long as they don’t impose them on anyone else, including threatening a follower if they decide to abandon a certain faith. And as long as devotees do not intrude on others or others’ space, who cares? It is a bit like a sexual preference.  Religion is a personal thing between a believer and their god. No one else’s business. Personally I come into contact daily with Muslims and neither I nor they have any problem; always pleasant, reasonable, polite.

Simon the realist says:

11:02am | 17/01/12

I don’t dislike Muslims as such but their stone age religion is ridiculous!  Cover up their women, treat them worse than dogs and even a push to introduce some form of Sharia law in our country.  All religion is for scared people who refuse to believe when it’s over it’s over!  No God, no afterlife and to all you extremists no bunch of virgins waiting for you in paradise!  Get real!!  And I will cheer for the player who jogs past Tebow and bowls him over mid prayer!  And I bet he doesn’t get struck by a bolt of lightning!!

Galooloo says:

03:23pm | 17/01/12

I must be stupid. How does any reasoned discussion go from the indication that a football player in the USA had a prayer moment presumably because he was not doing so well - go to nonsense about Muslims in Paris?

Just to assist the ‘tell all’ writer in case there is some hope of redemption - Islam says nothing about the nonsense you portray. Fundamentalism is a culturally based means of controlling the masses regardless of its religious origins. A quest for power not God. Remember the crusades?

Kebabpete says:

08:19am | 17/01/12

Ah, now I get it. So gay is a religion. Yeah, better stop them from being out in public too. I don’t wanna let down my guard and be converted.

Markus says:

09:03am | 17/01/12

I think what he means is that being able to define your sexual preference as part of who you are is seen as something to be proud of, but trying to do the same with your faith is clearly worthy of scorn and/or public ridicule.
Such an attitude is no different to the equally pathetic “I’ve got no issue with gays, just don’t be actin’ all gay-like”.

Y2J says:

09:41am | 17/01/12

ICB.

This article is nothing to do with religious bigotry. Why are Christians so precious about their religion that it cannot even be dicussed without cries of bigotry?

There’s nothing in the article demanding Christians be closeted. The article is quite rightly pointing out that the sporting field is not the place for religion (would you be as accepting if Tebow were a Muslim with a prayer mat). It is also highlighting the religious divide going on in America ATM and the ridiculousness of thanking any God for doing well in sport with all those prayers from people in genuine need going unanswered.

I’d also like to point out that there are plenty of “gays and lesbiens (sic)” who are not only “out and proud” but also Christian.

Tom says:

11:49am | 17/01/12

Mohammed Ali used his sporting position to advocate the Muslim religion. Hazem el Masri did the same.

You won’t see gutless authors like Ants giving those sportsmen a bit of stick. Not as “safe” as boring it up the Christians.

Yes, I agree Andrew, the article reeks of anti-Christian bigotry. It is the safest, newest bigotry of the “so-called” enlightened Westerners.

Y2J says:

01:16pm | 17/01/12

“A football field is no place for nutty religious fanaticism.”

Did you read the article?

And how insecure about your faith are you that you have to see bigotry in what amounts to little more than mild criticism?

Tom says:

02:03pm | 17/01/12

Y2J, all you are saying is “I am not a bigot, but ....”. Sorry fella, you are.

Mike says:

04:51pm | 17/01/12

@Y2J - you may be arguing with a brick wall with this magician Tom - as demonstrated by his “all you are saying is “I am not a bigot, but ....”. Sorry fella, you are” comment ... I looked over the discussion and can’t see where Y2J said anything of the sort.  conjured out of thin air.

Tom says:

07:12pm | 17/01/12

OK Mike, Y2J says “nutty religious fanaticism”, the article is about Tebow a footballer praying on the footy field and making no bones about it when later asked.

Steve Rodgers used to do it.. Hazem el Masri too. Which ones are the nutters? What are your criteria for drawing the line? (I am betting that you draw the line where it is trendy. Ie where a Christian does it.

Is Anthony Mundine a nutter / fanatic? Why not? At several of his last bouts he had an aboriginal dancer in front of his entrance to the ring. Ants would not do a “religious nutter” rant against Mundine because it is not “safe” and he would be described as a “bigot” or “racist”.

Spin all you like Mike and Y2J, you have not got a leg to stand on. I think you should hop off the Christian thing as your bigotry, however “safe” you might think it is, is still bigotry.

PS: “insecure about your faith” ... my beliefs are not known to you. Attacking someone presenting their view as “insecure” is desperate.

Y2J says:

08:59pm | 17/01/12

@Mike - I suspect you’re right banging my head against a wall but here goes anyway.

@Tom - Actually I didn’t say “nutty” I quoted the headline of the article.

So not only are you insecure you’re factually incorrect.

“Steve Rodgers used to do it.. Hazem el Masri too. Which ones are the nutters?”

Show me where either play got down for a prayer during a game. And wasn’t sludge (Steve Rogers - don’t argue with me about League I clearly know more than you on this topic as well) a Christian?

You’ve already shot down your own weak argument. The objection isn’t about being religious or being a Christian it’s about praying on the field, a place religion does not belong.

The fact that you have to resort to so many strawmen type arguments highlights your insecurity more than my pointing out the obvious.

It’s not bigotry to say religion does not belong on the sporting field and it really doesn’t matter how many religious sports people of any faith you can throw up.

Oh and I’m not bigoted except maybe against stupid people.

Tom says:

12:30pm | 18/01/12

Y2J, still trying to attack someone as insecure. Sorry sport, that device is cheap and tacky. Yes, Steve (Sludge as his good mates such as you like to point out) was Christian. So was Matty. Both father and son great ornaments to the game. Matty used to pray before a conversion attempt. They were Christians. I don’t see them as “nutters”, do you?

I don’t see Hazem as a nutter, do you?

BTW: Anthony Mundine - aboriginal dancer. Cummon, big boy? How come you selectively by-passed that one? In fact, it is your selectivity that brands you as a bigot.

Y2J says:

11:15pm | 18/01/12

You’re insecure and desperately sad if you think suggesting that religion has no place on the sporting field is some sort of anti-Christian bigotry.

So you’ve moved on from Sludge to Mat. Ok show me video of him kneeling in prayer before a conversion. You haven’t shown me a single one let alone a consistent dropping to one knee for a quick prayer every time a play goes well. You’re full of it. Like most insecure Christians you can’t stand even a bit of light criticism.

“BTW: Anthony Mundine - aboriginal dancer. Cummon, big boy? How come you selectively by-passed that one? In fact, it is your selectivity that brands you as a bigot. “

Mundine is a Muslim yet again you’re getting your bullshit mixed up as you make it up.

You’re going to have to do better than moronic delusions. If you can.

Tom says:

06:43pm | 19/01/12

Y2J, You keep calling people “insecure”, the all purpose insult that you think should stifle any debate. What lazy debating. I say you are a “bigot”. How about moving on, else you keep impressing to everyone that you are a bigot.

Stop being evasive. You missed the point. Mundine’s dancer was about aboriginal beliefs and had nothing to do with Muslim beliefs. Why is Mundine any different than Tebow?

Y2J says:

08:25am | 20/01/12

1. I say insecure because you are. There is no anti-Christian bigotry in pointing out that religion does not belong on the sporting field.

Your rambling incoherent rants on the topic not only backup my contention that you are insecure but are starting to suggest that you are paranoid and delusional as well.

2. I note you can’t back any of your contentions about Mat/Steve Rogers, El Mazri or Mundine praying DURING sport with sort of evidence. This is NOT a surprise.

3. An Aboriginal dancer is just that a DANCER. And part of the PRE FIGHT pageantry. Yet again you’ve got nothing.

4. As I noted before, I am bigoted. I hate all stupid people.

Kebabpete says:

08:22am | 17/01/12

Of course he’s not tapping into god’s power. God doesn’t exist so there wouldn’t be much to tap into.

Samuel says:

08:23am | 17/01/12

This.

Who says he is praying to win? Or that he even believes that God cares if he wins or not. You’re putting words into his mouth, Ant, and reading your own prejudices into his actions. There are whole shades of grey here that you don’t seem to be in any mood to acknowledge.

I suspect, like Evalee here, that it’s about finding his own inspiration rather than making a statement about how God is going to win him a football game. And, if so, so what? It’s better than the grandstanding of other NFL players when they do things like catch a ball or make a tackle.

Dan says:

09:46am | 17/01/12

Ok, I can’t help making this connection and being a dick:

Kebab’s wife/husband/other: “Come to bed honey.  It’s late.”

Kebab: “No!  Someone’s wrong on the internet!”

Kebabpete says:

10:08am | 17/01/12

@Dan, I think you miss the point of being able to post comments on an “opinion” piece. In case you still don’t get it, its all about having an opinion. It wouldn’t be much of a read if people didn’t voice them.

Dan says:

11:31am | 17/01/12

Pete: Nope.  I just found your outright denial/discount of others’ beliefs quite amusing and I felt that the analogy hit the mark.  As such, it’s my opinion regarding your comment.

Danny B says:

03:53pm | 17/01/12

@ Dan

XKCD, right?

Servaas says:

08:41pm | 17/01/12

Kebabpete just said God doesn’t exist. There you have it folks: God doesn’t exist because Kebabpete said so. It is now confirmed. Finally, the deal is closed. Whoo-hoo!

Kebabpete says:

08:25am | 17/01/12

Never thought of it like that Toolman… well put!

Tom says:

02:29pm | 17/01/12

Tim “introducing bills to force creationism to be taught at College level”. Any references? I am honestly surprised. However, how does this make Teebow a nutter?

BTW: Do you believe aboriginal culture should be taught at Australian schools?

Tim the Toolman says:

06:52pm | 17/01/12

Hi Tom,

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/01/14/3371383/missouri-bill-would-require-the.html

A Republican lawmaker from Harrisonville wants all students in Missouri public schools, as well as those in introductory college courses, to be taught intelligent design alongside evolution in their science classes.

As for aboriginal culture, I can’t see why not.  If it’s taught in a history class, rather than in a science class where they try and prove that their creation myth makes as much sense as evolution.

Tom says:

08:14pm | 17/01/12

Thanks Tim, a pretty good analysis. I also would rate creationism (that excludes evolution) and the aboriginal myths as similarly inappropriate as alternative science.

Both are nice stories that shed light on history and culture. However, ramming dogma based beliefs into children as an alternative science discredits the advocates of those religions.

I am not sure where Tebow might stand on that issue and assume that he stops short of joining with the Republican lawmaker from Harrisonville. This makes it very hard to agree with the group-think and stereotyping coming from Ants and his sniggering class disciples.

All the man does is pray or whatever when he does something good. Why is it different than a cricketer who always carries a coin in his left pocket or his mum’s hanky when he goes out to bat? I cannot understand why Ants is so obsessed about Tebow.

All the same, great point Tim. Appreciated.

Servaas says:

11:50pm | 17/01/12

All nations are religious and will remain so til the end of time, seeing that they hold a belief about why they exist and what their duty is while they are here. God or religious rituals is not a pre-requisite for a person to be religious.

What is true though is that there are definite differences between nations which daily living and laws are based on Judeo-Christian thinking, Islam and other spiritual or naturalistic views. The first world is predominantly nations with the Judeo-Christian background although practically they are not that any longer. Although many citizens still claim affiliation to it, most of those nations hold on to other beliefs when implementing laws and so forth. The quality of life is in decline together with the rejection of the Judeo-Christian views. The one always lags a bit behind the other though. In the fast developing nations around the world people are again generally turning towards the Christian faith (and Islam in some places).

And Tim, how do you know what God cares about? Do you talk to Him often? Read the Bible to understand what Tebow’s God cares about.

bella starkey says:

09:34am | 17/01/12

That’s what it made me think of immediately. Howeber my lapse catholic education failed me once again.

Steggz says:

12:37pm | 17/01/12

That passage (as per much of the Sermon on the Mount) is about the heart and intentions, as opposed to the actual actions. Jesus says “Don’t be like them, who do these things to get attention.” The who and the why are more important than the where

Parlay says:

08:56am | 17/01/12

@Angry God

You will never here The Punch criticise Islam, that would be politically incorrect.

SimonFromLakemba says:

09:30am | 17/01/12

Michael Vick was before the punch started I believe and did jail time.

Hazem El Masri was Muslim and never ‘prayed to mecca’.

subotic says:

10:10am | 17/01/12

Hell yes, ban and burn Burkas and Hajibs. And outlaw anything that makes people believe that some filthy goat-herding deity will reward them in an afterlife with 72 virgins.

I mean, really, 72 virgins - does that make sense to anyone? And it’s an ancient religion, maybe it was misinterpreted? Maybe it’s not 72 virgins, maybe it’s a 7-foot-2 Persian…..

sir ronald braqdnam says:

09:12am | 17/01/12

Well said jane, if there was such a thing as God it wouldnt allow the suffering of people in the millions on this planet.
Ive said it before and will say it again, show me one physical piece of evidence, not a belief, of the existance of God and I will go to church with you this weekend, converted.

Tim the Toolman says:

10:02am | 17/01/12

I suspect the religious answer to this fluctuates between:

“God works in mysterious ways” and “God loves himself a touchdown by his favourite team.”

Bev says:

10:25am | 17/01/12

while I agree with you about religion.  I also think several thousand people in pink rain coats at a football match parading around centre field pushing a message about a cancer on the decline while ignoring other cancers which kill more people and are increasingly prevelant   as out of place.

Al says:

01:33pm | 17/01/12

And this falls back onto the idea that IF a God does exist he/she is a benevolent and caring entity (despite all the evidence to the contrary).
I am of an agnostic view that a God may or may not exist, however have also come to the opinion that if a God does exist he/she is at best uninterested in the daily happenings and suffering of humans or at worst a malevolent entity bent on causing suffering. In either case you won’t find me worshipping it/them.

Danny B says:

09:30am | 17/01/12

Religion’s already had a good run of being imposed on others.  Before you get on your high horse about atheists forcing their ‘beliefs’ onto others, I’d like to mention three words:

Australian Christian Lobby

If that’s not about imposing religious beliefs on others, I don’t know what is.  We atheists just want to be left in peace, without religion imfluencing any part of our lives - including legislation.

Rose says:

10:36am | 17/01/12

Danny B, as distasteful as I find them, the Australian Christian Lobby has as much right as anyone else to lobby politicians, that’s called democracy. If you want to negate their influence you need to band together with your like-minded peers and form your own lobby group, or support existing lobbyists who you agree with.
Atheists say they want to be left in peace, without any religious influence, bit is not only impossible, but it shouldn’t be their aim. We should all expect adults to be able to debate issues with people of all belief systems in order to find solutions to problems. As much as atheists don’t want the religious controlling the agenda, those with religious beliefs don’t want atheists controlling the agenda either.
You know we as a nation have grown up when people accept that all people have a right to their own opinions and values and everyone is respectfully allowed to participate in the democratic process.

John L says:

11:33am | 17/01/12

@Danny B you can always join the ASL: http://www.australiansecularlobby.com/ .They could probably use some more support. It’s probably come time that atheists become more pro-active in their place in society; being left in peace is no longer an option.

Richo says:

05:05pm | 17/01/12

@Danny B

It’s not about who has forced their beliefs on others - I’ll leave the idea that atheism is the only acceptable form of belief in many public areas - but rather that we all (regardless of belief) should be able to display, demonstrated and explain our beliefs without being slammed for not sharing *your* belief.

We don’t have freedom from religion in Australia, we have freedom *of* religion - this means we all get to believe what we want. If the atheists want to have more say in government (remembering that much legislation has been about removing the rights of religious organisations to do certain things like comment on other religions eg. SA) then they should do so, in a well-mannered, and correct manner.

Andrew says:

09:30pm | 17/01/12

and your brain

John II says:

09:47am | 17/01/12

@sir ronald

Christians, on the whole, ALREADY live their lives as good people and take responsibility for their actions.  It’s this ‘me’ attitude and the I can tell everyone else what to do attitude of people that is the downfall of society.

Shane From Melbourne says:

11:20am | 17/01/12

Sorry but the fact that Collingwood lost the Grand Finals is proof that there is a God and that he does answer prayers…..

Dr S says:

04:37pm | 17/01/12

@sir ronald

Who is going decide what “good” is?

Seth Brundle says:

05:18pm | 17/01/12

@Dr S: we could always just adopt the values of good and evil from any of the other gods that have been worshipped throughout history.  The values all tend to be the same, no need to just stick with the christian god.

Mike says:

04:58pm | 17/01/12

Great point Dave!  I hope they read all the bits about him being anti-gay and anti-choice and how he refused to sign on to the “It gets better” project which was started as a way to prevent the massive number of teenage suicides brought on by bullying due to them being gay.

What an upstanding young Christian he is indeed!  Make sure you all take Dave’s advice and read.  Unbiased education really is anarchy to religion after all.

Seth Brundle says:

05:20pm | 17/01/12

The last thing any child needs is to be in the company of a male christian.

steve says:

01:19pm | 18/01/12

This is the argument that annoys me most about Tebow. It’s like no other professional sportsperson have ever done charity work. I think you’ll find the vast majority of them do - it’s just they don’t go out looking for praise for it, or don’t use their religious belief as a reason, or excuse, to do so.
Tebow isn’t humble, it’s all an act. The fact that he has to publicly do the kneeling thing is evidence of it.
Personally, I find people like him dangerous. His backing for an anti-abortion advertisement during the Superbowl is further evidence that - like most believers - he fundamentally falls short in one key area they always preach….tolerance…

pitythefather says:

10:58am | 17/01/12

I don’t mind a wank now and then but i’m discreet.

Poida says:

10:16am | 17/01/12

For his sake I hope he doesn’t start pretending he can speak in tongues. I visited a church in the Lower Blue Mountains where an astonishing amount of youth had this “gift”.
Something in the water up there perhaps.

Oats says:

10:51am | 17/01/12

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
“Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus”

Matthew 6 is obviously telling Christians to be honest when they pray and not only “to be seen by them”. Tebow spends the off-season feeding the poor in the Philippines to God’s glory, so clearly we know he’s a committed Christian, not faking. Good try though.

Wynston Cruso says:

01:30pm | 17/01/12

I guess this then provides even more proof that the Bible is a contradictory load of bollocks.

Parlay says:

10:31am | 17/01/12

Only one thing wrong with your theory there Reggie.

Sharwood doesn’t pick things up that fast.

Tim the Toolman says:

10:38am | 17/01/12

“faith makes people better.”

Yes, that’s why the most religious nations on earth are the worst to live in…or if that’s a little abstract, the most religious states in America have a correlation as the least safe to live in.

Mike says:

02:10pm | 17/01/12

“faith makes people better.”

What are you smoking Oats? some of the most bigoted, meddling and manipulative people I have ever known in my life have professed to having “Faith”

Faith just makes people BELIEVE they are better. One of the symptoms of bigotry ironically.

People are good by their own volition regardless of whether they have faith or not.

marley says:

03:07pm | 17/01/12

@Tim the Toolman “the most religious states in America have a correlation as the least safe to live in. ”  Possibly true (can’t be bothered to check) - but is that cause and effect, or effect and cause?

Tim the Toolman says:

06:56pm | 17/01/12

“Possibly true (can’t be bothered to check) - but is that cause and effect, or effect and cause?”

The documents are online if you do wish to at some point, and freely available.

In any event, I suspect it doesn’t much matter.  Religion is either the tiger or the vulture.  It causes or follows misery.  Either way, it’s not a companion I want by my side.

maley says:

07:11pm | 17/01/12

@Tim - I like that - the tiger or the vulture. I don’t quite see religion (or, at least some religions) in quite the same light but it’s an interesting analogy nonetheless.

Shane From Melbourne says:

12:28pm | 17/01/12

Praise the Lord and pass the ammo…....

void says:

01:07pm | 17/01/12

Dear Shane,

Amen.

Kind regards

skigod says:

11:34am | 17/01/12

Each example you provide is equally silly. The issue is that this American idiot - and he is an idiot, just listen to him, his IQ is well below par - has created an immense following through merging his fundamentalist version of faith with a second-rate sport.
I think that any sportsperson who crosses him/herself before taking a penalty shot, then misses, should instantly give up either sport or religion, because it proves yet again that prayer doesn’t work or their god doesn’t give a shit. Probably because they pray to something that doesn’t exist, except in their imagination.

marley says:

01:47pm | 17/01/12

@skigod - well, I think you missed my point, which was in the final paragraph.  God worship is bad but not nearly as offensive to my sensibilities as self worship.

Sir Ena Williams says:

12:33pm | 18/01/12

I’d like to thank Jesus-God_Jehovah for letting me win. I don’t know who or what that is but it sounds like something a dumb yank would say.

Mike says:

04:38pm | 17/01/12

to be fair I don’t recall the last time I saw a rapist sports person rape someone on the field . . . you may need to ease up on the caffeine . . . and the secondary school crime statistics reports . . .

Bertrand says:

08:32pm | 17/01/12

Comment. Of. The. Day.

Patricia says:

06:39am | 18/01/12

Seppo? Really. How many citizens of the U.S do you actually know? I know many of them because I’ve been here for 17 years and guess what? There is no such thing as a typical American.  Name calling is so very lame- can we evolve please? Oh and do us a favour- don’t procreate.

Patricia says:

06:39am | 18/01/12

Seppo? Really. How many citizens of the U.S do you actually know? I know many of them because I’ve been here for 17 years and guess what? There is no such thing as a typical American.  Name calling is so very lame- can we evolve please? Oh and do us a favour- don’t procreate.

Y2J says:

10:42am | 17/01/12

“The fact is though,in AFL not one journalist or AFL would dare try and stop the practice if several of its Muslim players did similar acts of worship.”

This just such a bullshit argument. Of course a muslim rolling out a prayer mat (ok maybe only facing mecca for a few bows or whatever) during a game of AFL would attract criticism. And not just because it would like be more interesting than the actual sport. Religion, any religion, should be a personal thing.

People are not as afraid of criticising Islam as you pretend to believe.

Richard says:

01:25pm | 17/01/12

The thing is, these bien pensant chattering leftist literati have a massive superiority complex. When Someone like Michael Vick gets busted for dog-fighting, or Brett Favre get sprung being a sleazebag, these condescending clowns who imagine in their own minds they have an acerbic wit start feeling quite happy: it justifies them to give those miscreants a serve and start flaying them in public, saying, “see, they might perform astounding feats of athletic prowess, but MORALLY, we are superior to them, heh, heh, heh”.

But when this guy Tebow comes along, and not only engineers a miraculous string of last minute wins for his heavily unfavoured team, and takes them all the way to the second round of the playoffs to boot (they were predicted by most pundits preseason to win only 2 games for the entire season), but ALSO has the NERVE to be an upstanding, righteous man, well… it infuriates them!

These are the sort of people we allow to dictate what slant on the news we receive is. And so is there any wonder why society starts crumbling around us, when people like Sharwood are given the opportunity to express their opinions, and even to be paid for doing it! Is it any wonder when the sort of attitudes that lead to the London riots are not only just tolerated by these leftist elitist pricks, but encouraged?

Where is the balance? Where are the columnist prepared to articulate a strong view of a moral, traditionalist society. Oh I know, the only ones we have must be marginalised and mocked and prosecuted in the courts like Andrew Bolt was. Even just the mention of his name is enough to discredit this comment in these people’s eyes.

Well You Will NOT win this battle for the soul of society, you leftist scum! While there is still twitchiness in my fingers, I will fight you X!

Leah says:

11:14pm | 17/01/12

And not just the NFL. Look at other sportspeople around the world - people who have cheated on their wives, broken up their families, had assault charges (and convictions), taken drugs… but apparently praying in public is the worst kind of offence a sportsperson can commit.

Joe Lokanovich says:

10:52am | 17/01/12

“Proselitizing by managers a la amway” -what does that mean?
Is that the US Corp that had an incease in turnover of 15% during the GFC?
Has billions in assets and reserves and is a totally debt-free ?
Has been in business 51 years? turns over $10,000,000 p.a?
Has thousands of corporate affiliates and operates in over 80 countries?
How is your “work” place looking?

Master says:

11:44am | 17/01/12

I’m glad the bright lights and loud noises were sophisticated enough to maintain your attention span.

Amber says:

12:48pm | 17/01/12

Really? Is that all you have?

Master says:

01:16pm | 17/01/12

That’s all I need.

Parlay says:

11:25am | 17/01/12

Great article Vivian.

*Note to Ant - this is real sport’s journalism.

(I know, I am banned, happens when your ego is dented).

P. Darvio says:

11:51am | 17/01/12

Quote: Christian teachings and the law according to God are the foundation of our society. How can that possibly be grotesque?

M’mmm – there’s at least one small problem with that – your Christian Bible actually bans people playing football – of any kind.

“2. Football. At least, the pure version of football, where you play with a pigskin. The modern synthetic footballs are ugly and slippery anyways. Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.”

And you’re doubly breaking that if you wake up, eat some sausage then go throw around the football. Or go to the county fair and enter a greased pig catching contest.”

http://www.11points.com/books/11_things_the_bible_bans,_but_you_do_anyway

What’s the type of (death?) punishment does the Bible advocate for those playing football – maybe a Christian can provide the answer.

Maybe football loving Christians need to actually go read their Christian Bible before they blog.

Steggz says:

12:50pm | 17/01/12

Ah, the old “It’s banned in the Old Testament, therefore it can’t be done” trick…
The Bible is a collection of books and letters from a period of 1000 years or so. It’s also a display of how Israel related to God before Jesus and what the life, death and resurrection of Jesus means for the Christians that lived then and live now. The OT law is no longer part of how Christians relate to Jesus (though some parts have translated into Christian practice). That includes the clean/unclean animal laws.

Richard says:

12:56pm | 17/01/12

Bahahaha P. Darvio, its astounding how some people in this modern day are so wilfully ignorant of Christianity, like you are, and seem to be so proud of that fact, trumpeting it about like a battle standard.

None of what you have written is applicable, not the part about Leviticus being relevant to Christians (tip, its from the Torah, its only relevant to Jews) or the part about footballs being made from pigskin (they’re synthetic, not that it would matter if they weren’t, you’re being hysterical).

But please continue, it is quite amusing.

void says:

01:24pm | 17/01/12

Nice try, Darvio.  Next time, try putting your example into context, although that would take away from the point that you’re trying to make.  The context of Jesus killing the pigs was that he had just exorcised demons from a person(s) and sent them into a nearby group pigs, which then ran into a nearby lake or river.  I know it sounds far-fetched but since you’ve already referred to Jesus as a fictional person, you can’t really complain when the rest of the story seems fictional as well.

When you put it context, Jesus suddenly isn’t a pig killer but someone who helped the afflicted.

Wynston Cruso says:

01:41pm | 17/01/12

Thanks void, it all makes so much sense now. He killed pigs after having exorcised demons out of someone, perfectly reasonable explanation. P Darvio you must feel so silly….

healthy dose of scepticism says:

05:42pm | 17/01/12

Hmmmm…. I think Epicurus says it fairly well…
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”  - Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

Amber says:

10:58am | 17/01/12

I don’t know man, Brady is looking a lot like Jesus these days…...

josh says:

11:14am | 17/01/12

If Payton Manning is so good, why is injured?

Skigod says:

11:21am | 17/01/12

In real football, Chris Judd is God. Or a god.

Markus says:

11:31am | 17/01/12

Aaron Rodgers is the man. Packers to go back-to-back.

subotic says:

11:54am | 17/01/12

@Amber, if only Brady could throw ‘em down half as good as Manning (and without the dirty tricks) then maybe those terrible NEPs and their cheating coach might stand a chance for a SB Ring.

subotic says:

11:56am | 17/01/12

@Skigod, what’s a “Chris Judd”? One of the European soccer playing thingies? Synchronized diver perhaps?

IDK. Never heard of it….

Hobbs says:

12:09pm | 17/01/12

Um Markus,

Packers lost yesterday.

Ryan says:

12:39pm | 17/01/12

Saints lost too - couple of real boilovers on the weekend!

SimonFromLakemba says:

01:00pm | 17/01/12

Eli Manning stopped him in his tracks. What a sporting family, sheesh!

Wynston Cruso says:

01:44pm | 17/01/12

Comparing Aussie rules to real sports…. hilarious.

subotic says:

01:46pm | 17/01/12

@SimonFromLakemba, I’ve watched Eli go up against Peyton in the USA. Incredible game. Yep, that whole family are a bunch of legends.

GO COLTS!!!

skigod says:

02:09pm | 17/01/12

The action in an entire game of gridiron will fit on a 5-minute tape. It requires few ball skills. FFS, only one player actually kicks the ball. It’s a joke. Aussie rules requires pace, myriad skills, athleticism, endurance ... all the things tiddlywinks - sorry, gridiron - lacks.

Wynston Cruso says:

02:50pm | 17/01/12

Let me know when AFL becomes a professional sport and played in more than one country. American football requires skill and strategy, whereas AFL looks like a total uncoordinated clusterfuck, it’s actually pretty embarassing to have as a national sport.

Shane* says:

03:13pm | 17/01/12

Sums it up nicely:

http://mikeorthedon.com/2011/09/10/why-nfl-is-a-terrible-terrible-sport/

subotic says:

03:19pm | 17/01/12

@skigod, I used to think the same thing until I actually sat down and studied the rules of American football, then learned how the game actually plays out.

From someone who played Aussie Rules, League, Union and soccer at school, I am now totally overtaken by American football and apart from State of Origin games just don’t have any time to waste on ye olde “run the pig skin from one end of the field to the other and knock down as many chumps as possible in the process” type games.

Australian football, like Australia, is pretty much unable to be saved.

Skigod says:

09:55am | 19/01/12

Subotic, I’ve been to a few games. I enjoyed the atmosphere and I understand the rules. But it’s still incredibly overrated and bloody boring.

Joseph Logan says:

10:59am | 17/01/12

Waza, you make a great point -I find the welcome not only offensive, but too silly to talk about generally.

Jack Johnson says:

11:38am | 17/01/12

yeah they want morre Hopaoate’s putting fingers up folks backsides , thats acceptable to these mutts but a prayer   gotta kill them for that , who wants morals who wants decency ?  not football

Wynston Cruso says:

01:49pm | 17/01/12

Jack don’t be ignorant, Hapaoate was praying to the Golgothan shit demon. Each to their own.

Surely says:

02:28pm | 17/01/12

Yeah Jack because everyone loved Hopaoate didn’t they, a real media darling.

Another Chris says:

02:17pm | 17/01/12

HA That would be their Parents having unprotected sex and/or multiple partners plus (sadly) rapes etc. But hey, let’s not blame man kind for their own actions.

Tim the Toolman says:

06:58pm | 17/01/12

“That would be their Parents having unprotected sex and/or multiple partners”

Didn’t you hear?  The pope speaks for god, and he says no to contraception!

Dan Webster says:

07:10pm | 17/01/12

@ Tim the Toolman.

And the people ignore the message. Still the fault of the people, NOT God.

Tim the Toolman says:

08:33pm | 17/01/12

I’m sorry Dan…we may have a miscommunication.  In response to a claim to people having unprotected sex leads to aids, I pointed out that the church condemns protected sex, thereby leading to an increase in HIV.  You’re not saying that condoms increase the risk of HIV, are you?

Dan Webster says:

11:49am | 18/01/12

@ Tim the Toolman -  It’s not about condoms, you do know that the church actually says no sex until marriage…......

Kika says:

01:38pm | 17/01/12

Exactly. That’s what I said. Remove the world ‘religion’ from ‘public expression’ and fill in any of those things you said above and I’m sure the article wouldn’t have been written the way it had.

sj says:

03:05pm | 17/01/12

Sorry I missed your comment but do agree.  I find it interesting that as many people do not agree with the columnist they need to satisfy their bloodlust with each other.

Johnny atheos says:

08:37am | 19/01/12

In a secular state religion should be private matter. All it does is create division and some of its practices are offensive to the non-religious. Best to keep it to yourself.

subotic says:

12:29pm | 17/01/12

And…. I follow the Indianapolis Colts, think that Peyton Manning is god (go on, google those stats), and know for a fact that the NEPs, Brady, and the NEPs coach are a bunch of cheats.

The day Brady is god is the day American football is over.

Hope you like THAT!!!

Why the hoopla says:

12:36pm | 17/01/12

Exactly, much rather hear about him than Michael Vickers and his dog fights or any other number of indiscretions.

He is not out there at every chance trying to convert or spout his beliefs. Just doing his own thing which happens to be televised and latched onto by the media.

Personal faith is fine and should be encouraged, organised religion is something I can’t get my head around but that is another topic.

Master says:

03:59pm | 17/01/12

lol Vickers

skigod says:

01:55pm | 17/01/12

Chuck Norris is more of a fundamentalist than this gridiron dill.

Tim the Toolman says:

12:44pm | 17/01/12

“By that logic opinion columns are no place for expressing fanatical atheism”

This is an opinion column espousing an opinion.  The complaint was about a footballer praying on a football field. 

On an opinion piece, you opine.
On a football field, you play football.

Where does praying come into this equivalence?

Shane says:

01:53pm | 17/01/12

Both are expressing belief in a public arena. How are they not the same?

Tim the Toolman says:

06:49pm | 17/01/12

“How are they not the same?”

Hmm…because the footballer is not there to espouse a belief, outside of “I believe I can throw this here ball a long way.”  The opinion writer is paid to write opinion.  People go to an opinion piece to read opinion, they go to football to watch football, not someone praying.

AC says:

12:56pm | 17/01/12

Thats ridiculous. Religion doesn’t automatically equal morals. not even close. Great he has some reserved and adult views on sex and marriage. Thats great, doesn’t mean he isn’t immoral and it says nothing about the other areas of his life.

And besides, religion shouldn’t be broadcast all over television networks. It should be something that is personal. Your beliefs are your own, not the worlds. The whole attitude of Americans towards religion is at best unhealthy, at worst dangerous. The attitude taken by those trying to convert others, the hatred for anyone who doesn’t believe. It’s beyond pathetic, it’s just wrong.

Let people believe what they want to believe. And for the record, the problem here isn’t that a guy prayed before trying to make a pass. The problem is what the public has done with it. Latched onto it and made religion into a fad. it’s appauling.

Master says:

04:03pm | 17/01/12

Can I have your friends number? Gators Cheerleaders are amazing.

stephen says:

06:36pm | 17/01/12

Yeah but she was the mascot : a blow-up gator on its hind legs blowing a plastic trumpet.
‘Da da .... da da da Daaa Daaa Daaa.’

Richard says:

12:47pm | 17/01/12

No? Its a facetious argument to say “because there is suffering in the world, God is an asshole”. There is always a bigger perspective.

Have you ever heard of that Taoist proverb about the farmer who’s horse ran away? His neighbours were like “oh so sad, too bad”, but he was like “meh, maybe good maybe bad”. A few weeks later the horse returned all by itself, walked right into the paddock, and accompanying it was a herd of wild horses that it had befriended in the wilderness. His friends were all like “oh you lucky sod!”, but he was like “meh, maybe good maybe”. Then a couple of days later, as his only son was trying to break in the new wild horses, he was bucked off the back of one of them and broke his leg. His neighbours were like “oh, you’re screwed now, who’s gonna help you on the farm now? you don’t have any other sons..” but the farmer was like “meh, maybe good maybe bad”. Because then a few weeks later the army marched through the village and conscripted every able bodies men into the army to fight against the Mongols and be on campaign for years and years and possibly be killed and never return, but because the farmer’s son had broken his leg (which anyway was well on the way to being healed) he didn’t have to leave.

So the point is, yes, bad things happen, but there’s no way for mere mortals like you or I to now how these things fit into the grand scheme of things. Maybe good maybe bad! God never promised anyone there would be no suffering in the world, in fact quite the contrary, Perhaps suffering is necessary, perhaps death is necessary, otherwise how would the process of evolution occur?

You are a very ignorant person, Frank, and don’t assume that any vast and impersonal creator that might exist in the universe is bound by your petty and quaint notions of fairness or morality. You just simply don’t know, although granted, neither do I, but at least I’m aware of such, while you seem to be petulantly oblivious to it!

Dan Webster says:

07:13pm | 17/01/12

@ Frank is a Plank - If I punched you in the face and said God made me, would you blame God ?!! 
(Atheist are Dicks)

Josh Williamson says:

12:55pm | 17/01/12

Very true! The author of this blog claims to have nothing against Christianity but then goes on to attack it. As a Christian minister I am all for talking and discussing issues of faith, however, there is a difference between talking about something in a civil manner, and just launching an attack.

To equate public displays of religion to public sex is uncalled for. How can a reasonable discussion be had when this puerile behaviour is occurring?

Servaas says:

11:24pm | 17/01/12

Very good article.

subotic says:

01:49pm | 17/01/12

The Samoans, Fijians and Tongans all eat puppies too, I think…

old fart says:

02:56pm | 17/01/12

yummmmmmmmm labrador

SimonFromLakemba says:

04:51pm | 17/01/12

Sounds like you hate everything that isn’t white?

Clay says:

05:35pm | 17/01/12

@SimonFromLakemba Sounds like you’re projecting.

Mike says:

04:53pm | 17/01/12

“people are too scared of expressing how they feel for the likes of people like yourself who ridicule their actions”

Well said CJ, the gay community has been arguing this point for years, glad you can agree!

mr mark says:

09:53am | 18/01/12

how is it brave to prey in public in a christian dominated country?
stop talking up his actions as though they are something other than what they really are, a way to garner attention! fox"jesus is my saviour” news only ever showed this guy on tv because he was preying, its a media tie in with fox’s fundamentalist views!

holden says:

07:35pm | 17/01/12

JIG. Thanks for that. Now we know what he’s praying for.
I watched a team-mate for years crossing himself before he kicked for goal. (Aussie Rules.)
If he was successful he would look skyward and nod his head. If he failed, he just got on with the game. I confronted him one day, because to be frank I was getting a little tired of his childish behaviour. Plus we had kids in the juniors who admired his skills and I figured they might be roped into his pagan ritual.
He looked at me, surprised that I should need to ask when I pushed him for an answer to my query, which was, “Do you really believe that this god of yours helps you one minute and doesn’t help you the next?”
He said, and straightfaced, “If god knows I got the ball fairly he helps. If he thinks I gained it unfairly, he doesn’t. We have a deal”.
That’s what he said.
I still shake my head at the recollection.

andrew says:

09:51pm | 17/01/12

No he didnt miss sex, according to ant going down on one knee and praying for 10 secomds is the same as rooting in public.

Laurie says:

08:44pm | 17/01/12

Could nlot agree more.  Probably the most sensible comment here.

Melle says:

10:49pm | 17/01/12

Excellent response to a shallow article.

Vivian says:

08:46am | 18/01/12

Hmm I see.

Then you are just an enormously intolerant person. Got it. Thanks Anthony. If you don’t like it you will whinge about it even if the practice of others affects you in no way.

Very progressive of you. Really. A perfect liberal response.

Ripa says:

12:45am | 18/01/12

Just because you choose to keep your ideology to yourself why criticise someone who doesn’t, and what is the difference between someone who draws on strength through prayer as opposed to someone who draws on strength through a motivational coach or a therapist or their family or a trainer or any other idea. It is their own personal choice, youre not going to start denying people choice now ... are you? and what does “you are of a certain religon” mean?

Zac says:

01:50am | 18/01/12

Anthony,

“I am of a certain religion. This I keep to myself. I respect others who do likewise”

Atheism? Did you know Atheism is a religion in Australia. Even Atheist Foundation of Australia (AFA) thinks it is a religion The courts in U.S have declared it as a religion.

By the way this is just the opinion of a person called Anthony not Australia or U.S. Do you get that? What’s wrong with celebrating one’s spirituality. faith or religion in public? Let me tell once and once only, what I call spiritual lifestyle or Christian lifestyle or what some call as religion is very much a “PUBLIC THING”.  Who appointed you to police this? If you are able to call the religious nutty, you should realise you are not living in Atheist China or North Korea.

We are a democracy, which is the will of the people. That will includes spirituality or faith or religion. And that WILL will be celebrated publicly. High time you realise that buddy. Amen!!

Anthony says:

01:56am | 18/01/12

Cheers Anthony - that puts your article in perspective for me - even a a practising Catholic I’m all for keeping your religion low key and letting your actions speak louder than your words although I think this should extend to Atheists as well like Dawkins who in many instances takes the worst characteristics of religion (arrogance, aggresssion and being condescending) and try and make them their own…

Servaas says:

06:43am | 18/01/12

Well, obviously your religion is then one not worth sharing while the essence of a religion like Tebow’s is that it is to be shared. Christianity is in fact a religion re-born into, as in entered into later in life through conscious decision (as is the case with other religions) and those entering into it understand it as being the truth and only way to actual freedom and satisfaction for all men and will therefore share it.

It is in fact not possible to keep one’s religion fully to yourself as all your actions springs forth from what you believe. Although you don’t put a name on it it does effect those around you as this article clearly did.

Zac says:

11:19am | 18/01/12

Before anyone comes up with that “separation of Church and State myth, let me say this: you should exactly (not some clause based on assumption) show me where I can find it in the constitution.

marley says:

06:52am | 18/01/12

What have any of your issues got to do with the theme of the article?  It’s not lazy journalism to overlook things which are completely irrelevant to the point the author is making.

Brett says:

08:28am | 18/01/12

At its core, this article is a “Look how stupid Americans are” article.  It paints Tebow as a religous nut, when there is other publicly available information to indicate that he is more than that.  It talks as if there has never been a cricketer who has made a “sign of the cross” or pointed to the sky coing out to bat, or after making a hundred.  It also relies upon a “Look how popular right wing ultra conservative christian Republicans are” argument, when the reality is that ultra right wing conservative christian Republicans are not leading the nomination, in fact, quite the opposite.

It is LAZY journalism.  The article can be summarised as this: “I don’t really know about American football but there’s a guy who kneels before games and now a bunch of Americans are doing it, and it’s good to reference how religon centric the Republican party is, and I’m offended at how backward this culture which exists, half way around the world that I don’t live in, even though, as I said I don’t really watch American football, and come to think of it I am only really offended because this Tebowing thing is starting to get popular on the interenet, and Oh did I mention how stupid Americans are? Hahaha, I am so superior. ”

marley says:

12:13pm | 18/01/12

Oh, I didn’t say it wasn’t lazy journalism.  But not for the reasons you outlined.  And no, I don’t think it was saying Americans are stupid, I think it was saying religious observance should be kept private.

Servaas says:

06:49am | 18/01/12

Well said Reggie. Very good question.

What I’ve also realised though is that atheists have an intense fear (and possible bad experiences even) with religion being forced on them and now they over-react and want to destroy any form of defined religion (mostly Christianity). Sad thing is though that the oppressed always ebcomes the oppressor - see what Richard Dawkins and the guys are doing in England now, forcing there own theories and theirs alone on children.

mr mark says:

10:26am | 18/01/12

Reggieman - people have discovered it, its called free thought and a life free of mandatory guilt! of and money that thing the church has lots and lots of.
jesus isnt the the saviour of anyone, its an idea, theory(at best), religion is a placebo and nothing more, its doesnt solve the problems just changes where they blame lies.

Servaas - Dawkins is hardly using “theories”, he base’s his information on facts, proven evidence, not hearsay from a ceturies old book filled with contadiction fallacies and in some cases blatent lies! please dont try and trivialise Dawkins, the man, although sometimes arrogent(normally when pushed) does his research and deals in FACTS.

i have a hypothetical - If evidence could be provided to show there was no god, would religious poeple revoke their religious views?

i cant tell you that if there was any evidence to prove religions hold any truth what so ever there would be very few atheists, if any!

Cate says:

09:46pm | 18/01/12

Too true!

Melle says:

11:12am | 18/01/12

Vacuous, foolish comment. 
Stop pretending
Next you’ll claim the United States is at the bottom of the list of foreign aid donors.

holden says:

01:17pm | 18/01/12

@Melle. When did the truth become “vacuous, foolish comment”? Stan is not the ‘pretender, you are.
America does not, repeat, does not give ‘foreign aid’ for humanitarian purposes, and never has. Political influence? Yep!
For years the Yanks have destroyed produce so as to keep the price up. Do they send this excess to starving populations world-wide? Of course not! That would be silly.
America acts only for Americans, and only some Americans at that. Every schoolkid knows that.
I took Ant’s comments to lament the fact that “any” sportsperson who attributed success on the field to the intervention of his/her particular spiritual saviour was either mad, or simply brainwashed.
Even a confirmed worshipper of statues of virgins, or a confimed believer in those virgin’s availability in some imagined paradise, would have trouble convincing anyone that he sits in front of the biggest plasma in history urging on the “pick of the week”.
Some inclusionists suggest, (not seriously, I think), that Atheism is a religion. That’s because they don’t know what the word “religion” means.
I have a mate who works for the Public Service, (Federal), and he studies pornographic films for classification. And he studies them, as he must, religously.
“Come to me all ye who travail and are heavy laden and I will comfort you, for my yoke is heavy and my burden is light”. Sounds a bit like the Communist Manifesto to me.
Nah, can’t be. That was a matter of historical fact, not some fantasy made up by power hungry tyrants in order to terrify the locals into submission and slavery.
Good article Ant.
By the way, do these sad people, (yes, I do feel sorry for many of them), get down on their knees when their “saviours” send floods, and fire, and quakes, and tsunamis, and pestilence,(aids etc.), and wars, and famines, and etc., etc….....
How quaint.