You’ll marry who I tell you to marry, young lady!

Budz says:

01:06pm | 13/10/11

Here is a song about arranged marriages that might explain things for everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iri3lM8fQaQ

Tina says:

06:23am | 13/10/11

Same for one of my best friends. She is Indian as well, happily married now for three years. She said they were not in love when they got married but they respected eachother. They are a sweet couple.

As much as I love my friend though it is interesting to discuss the cultural differences. For example she prides herself in the fact that her hubbie has never set foot into the kitchen and we cannot go out at night, because she has to serve him dinner. But she is a very modern, bubbly young thing, so I am always stunned to hear about these differences. But it is their marriage and I respect their way of arranging their life together.

Richard the Lionheart says:

08:13am | 13/10/11

Tra la la. Complete cop out. No dating, flirtation and teasing for you, no competitive expectations, just find me the wealthiest man or cousin, Mum, and I will give it a go. You are tied forever to your parents will and be forever hounded on every issue, including “I want grandchildren.” Asian life revolves around family more than friends. It is selfish and based on status and money, not fulfilment and you own expectations from life. No touring with your friends around Europe or any other cultures for you, just the kitchen and daily calls from Mum and the new in-laws. You have never been allowed to grow up. You are still a child and will no doubt repeat the proceedure with your own children. You are gutless and have opted out of the freedoms Australia has offered you. Have a boring life.

Tina says:

08:31am | 13/10/11

Richard

I had those discussions with my friend. Not everyone wants to do these things. No all girls want to flirt with several men before settling down. And as I said she takes pride in being in charge in the household. Sure, its not for me either. But she is happy and its her choice. Why would that be bad?

SimonFromLakemba says:

08:31am | 13/10/11

I guess thats what it comes down to, different people, different cultures. I dont agree with it, I believe people should marry who they want to as thats a part of growing up in a western democracy, you have the choice and freedoms that come with it.

I have seen it a few times with my Lebanese friends, not so much arraigned but gently pushed in the direction and some of those havent worked out for the best.

Nic says:

08:54am | 13/10/11

@Richard

And the people who endlessly throw themselves into go nowhere relationships, get married because it’s time and then divorce at 35 are less selfish?

They’re wasting everyone’s time and energy dealing them, huge amounts of money on their third or fourth failed wedding and nothing’s achieved. Hell my cousin got a divorce not even a year after getting married. That’s surely a great and wonderful thing we’re encouraging.

We’ve seen time and again that love from a relationship may or may not last. Instead of marrying because of short lived passion why not marry an equal and have a love that can stay with you for 20 years?

All the flirtatious infatuation you speak of is just NRE. It lasts a short time then dissipates.
Everything else you said was just a racially tinged stereotype. Please explain how someone’s choice of how they get married means they’ll never tour Europe, that’ll be fun.

Happily arranged says:

09:05am | 13/10/11

@ richard- so what just because my parents help me meet my husband to be i can’t travel the world and experience diff cultures? Whata ridiculous comment. My sister in law has a phd an my entire extended family is extremely well educated and travel. Ur comment only highlights how ignorant you truly are. Arranged marriages are not for everyone but don’t make it sound like we are forced and oppressed women bound to the kitchen. I think my highly conservative parents would be the first ones to reject any prospective match who demands I stay in the kitchen.

And If I dont go out and sleep and flirt with multiple guys, I am losing out on opportunities? What opportunities am I losing? I don’t want to waste my time on relationships that go nowhere. Get your facts straight before you start making ridiculous comments. There is a big diff between arranged and forced!!!

Budz says:

09:12am | 13/10/11

I think the term ‘arranged marriage’ needs to be defined correctly before we argue whether it should be allowed. In the terms of an Indian ‘arranged marriage’ where the family act as more of a dating service through their network of people they know is very different to the ‘arranged marriage’ where they are forced to marry someone without their consent.

@Richard: You have made so many assumptions there it’s not funny, such as the parents over involvement in their lives etc. True that does happen sometimes, but to assume that is the norm is very wrong.
And you can hardly say the ‘norm’ in Australia is working with the divorce rate so high and so much misery and grief for family involved when a divorce occurs.

wow says:

09:29am | 13/10/11

@Richard the Bigot - thanks so much for your broad and wise generalisation of all Asians. Fan-bloody-tastic stuff. Selfish as you say because they cant serve their own wishes and travel around Europe? Gutless and opting out of freedoms because they like family more than friends? You are perhaps one of those people that says to their mates “But all Asians really do look the same - I can’t tell em apart”. Intolerance & ignorance.

Jade says:

09:35am | 13/10/11

I work with an Indian who has had two arranged marriages and is currently going through his second divorce. They don’t always work.

Pete(BD) says:

10:02am | 13/10/11

OK I’m no expert at this sort of thing but I have never seen a street kid out of one of these relationships.
The children seem to be loved wanted and well cared for.
The woman in this relationship doesn’t appear to have 6 different kids from six different fathers.
Safety and security and self esteem are the most important things to the developing child.
How often do we hear of kids being abused by mummies defacto in these relationships?
Ok a nine year old being told they have to marry a 50 year old? I have a major problem with that.

If it is as Tina says, she is happy and its her choice. Why would that be bad?

Its a rare enough condition in our so called enlightened way of going about things

jade (the other one) says:

10:36am | 13/10/11

However, this practice results in child brides, and for women and men who are from India’s poor, or uneducated, this is not the happy outcome. Often it leads to exploitation and abuse.

Furthermore, while your parents seem quite liberal, I wonder, if your husband was not what he seemed after the marriage, would they allow a divorce? Perhaps they would, but that is not the reality for many young men and women in these marriages.

I think the main issue, is in ensuring that both parties are consenting adults, who are not responding to familial pressures. In your case, it would seem that this is a fair statement. But please don’t pretend that your experience is the only one out there, and that there are not pervasive and horrific negatives that occur with the same or dare I suggest somewhat more frequency than Western style marriages.

AdamC says:

10:54am | 13/10/11

There is something to be said for arranged marriages. But, I wonder, is it the fact that marriages are arranged or the general commitment to the marriage that makes them more durable? Of course, divorce rates used to be much lower in Australa. I suspect that people from Indian families simply have a different attitude to marriage than most other people.

Elle says:

11:43am | 13/10/11

@happily arranged

“when it is time to get married, i’ll do exactly the same.” What exactly dictates this? Is it when you are ready to ‘settle down’, have kids etc? Or when you’re told/encouraged to do so?

And what is the preoccupation with marriage anyway? Given the divorce rate mentioned above it clearly doesn’t count for much (legally, emotionally, etc), so why do it in the first place…

Anne71 says:

12:57pm | 13/10/11

Good comment, happily arranged. I think people assume “arranged” means the same as “forced”. As you say, there’s a big difference. The understanding I have from various Indian friends is that while both sets of parents may very much want to see a marriage take place, they would never force their children into it if one or both of them were unhappy with the arrangement.
Besides, don’t forget that both arranged AND forced marriages were not uncommon in European culture until not so long ago, particularly among royalty and the nobility.  Compatibility was never even taken into consideration - it was all about acquiring land, wealth and power, or forging alliances with other countries or principalities. Not exactly romantic, was it?

Kika says:

02:07pm | 13/10/11

Hey happily arranged. It’s also a false perception people have that hindu children are FORCED into arranged marriages. My husband was asked twice when he was young about possible introductions his father suggested, but he told his father outright he was not interested, and his father left it at that. He respected his opinion. Especially as his father had a ‘love marriage’ so he had no grounds to dispute!

I, Claudia says:

03:18pm | 13/10/11

Richard, it’s incrediblly ignorant to accuse the family-oriented Asian culture of “selfishness.” Many Indians who favour arranged marriage could quite easily accuse you or I of being selfish for NOT seeking to further the socioeconomic status of our families via marriage. With that being said, the practice of FORCED arranged marriage is abhorrent, and the young girls who took their respective stands against their parents should be commended for their bravery. Incidentally, I’ve enjoyed all of the privileges you describe, and I STILL had to put up with an absolutely atrocious mother-in-law (until I disowned her, which, fortunately for me, is something we can do in societies in which arranged marriages aren’t the norm!).

n_dude says:

03:59pm | 13/10/11

@Richard - I experienced both. I wne through a 2 and a half year relationship with a girl who I met and went out with which ended because, despite the mutual attraction, our goals and aspirations were different. When we split up I asked my parents to find me someone. It was an interesting experience and eventually I found the right person. The decision ot marry was ours and not our parents. We have been married for over 8 years and have a beautiful daughter. I am not saying one is better than the other, but you shouldn’t be so narrow minded about it.

Aznchick says:

10:39pm | 13/10/11

Sorry to bust your bubble people - I’m Asian, and Richard is on the ball.
Asian families are a double edged sword. Yes you get the mammy pammying forever being a kid fussed over by your parents and told what to do for as long as your parents live, and don’t forget the in-laws if you’re a woman too, because they raise holy hell and 99% of Asian husbands are brought up to be absolute mommy’s boys.
The only role the wife has in many of these ‘arranged marriages’ cases is a very Fruedian one - the mother holds all reigns of power over the son, but because the son has matured into a man and has “other” needs which a mother cannot possibly do (i.e. sexual intercourse) a wife is roped in to fulfill everything the mother cannot do - provide sex, make babies.

We’re indoctrinated to dedicate our lives so slavishly to our parents that our wives are nothing (In Asian society husbands are pretty much god unless you’re a Westernised liberal Asian) but ‘outsiders’ married to the family - yes some make a big show of showing she is a ‘part’ of it but its a farcical facade meant for social status (see we love our daughter in law because she is perfect). Total bs.

But not all of us want to have our life dictated to us like a broken record. Some of us want to be individuals with our own lives and allowed to fly the nest and decide who we want to marry without being total, lazy, co-dependent cop outs who can’t make one of the biggest decision in our lives without our parents to change our nappies.
There’s some stupid thinking that just because we want to have a life outside Maw and Paw that means we’ll dump them to die in hospices and not want to come back and live proper, close but NON-DYSFUNCTIONAL relationships with our parents.
For Asian parents, its all about control. Their greatest fear is losing control and losing face in front of relatives, neighbours and other idiotic status climbing twits. It’s not their fault, its just the culture that encourages this, they are merely following what is the norm for centuries.

Why do you think in these SAME ASIAN CULTURES where arranged marriages exist you see honour killings - not just limited to Muslims.

Fellow Asians who want to bury their heads in the sand and live in self-denial are going to obviously cry bloody murder, and the few white apologists who know one or two anecdotal stories from friends who obviously wouldn’t show the crap they have to go through to live in their little bubble are going to think I’m wrong, but every Asian knows this - it’s whether or not they admit it or not.
Oh and by the way, before you say I’ve got some ‘dysfunctional family’ - I have a good relationship with my family, we’re well educated, close knit and have open communication with each other.
We just got our of the massive rut most Asian families are stuck in. Vicious cycle it is.

Bruno says:

12:08pm | 14/10/11

richard, be honest, you wish your parents could find you a nice girl? you dont honestly expect everyone to believe that you’re really happy trawling the west for boilers do you? You ought to move out to Fairfield, single mothers everywhere, you would love it

Mahhrat says:

10:46am | 13/10/11

@Lucy, if that’s the definition going forward, then me introducing my daughter into situations where she’ll meet guys I’m more likely to approve of is also a definition of “arranged marriage”.

In that case, let’s discuss them in different terms, because the people (they don’t deserve to be called parents) who tried to force their teenage daughter overseas can’t realistically call it an “arranged marriage”.  It spoils the very ideal of it, where you say to your child, “I think this person here is good for you; tell me what you think.”

I disagree with the whole concept out of sheer philosophy, because it precludes my daughter, her developing sexuality, and the fact that she plain might not want to get married ever!

I know I’m going to have a difficult enough time just getting her to be respectful as she becomes a teenager, without trying to force marriage on her.

IMHO, you should just want your kid to be happy and responsible.  The whole culture of arranging a marriage smacks to me of a desperate ploy to continue the interference in a child’s life long past the point where you should be withdrawing into the background and letting them live as they choose.

OchreBunyip says:

01:04pm | 13/10/11

Concerning informed consent - how many couples 18+ of age truly understand the various fabrications surrounding marriage and the end result of those if the couple divorce? I think if people had truly informed consent, there would be fewer marriages.

marley says:

06:26am | 13/10/11

Actually, arranged marriages take place at all levels of Indian society (and by the way, not all Indians are Hindus).  Arranged marriages are about finding someone with a compatible education and background - which is not a bad place to start when trying to find someone with whom to have a long-term relationship.  Arranged marriages place logic and common sense ahead of love - maybe that’s why they last better.

acotrel says:

06:29am | 13/10/11

@Nathan
Choices ! - If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime ? It’s one of the reasons for the high divorce rate, and a lot of stuffed up kids !

Mayday says:

08:36am | 13/10/11

I agree Nathan, the whole idea is wrong and what about assimilation?
Sounds a bit like animal husbandry to me and I thought we had moved on in evolutionary terms?

Parents do not own their children, they are not chattels to be bartered and traded like cattle and you are so right in regard to divorce and cultural difference.

At work yesterday an Indian woman asked me if it was usual for adult children to leave home before they are married, I couldn’t believe this question and the assumption that life was just a matter of finishing uni then finding a mate and reproducing.

We should all be the masters of our own destiny when it comes to relationships and no longer slaves to primitive religious mores.

marley says:

08:47am | 13/10/11

@mayday - arranged marriages have nothing to do with animal husbandry.  That’s an appalling comment.  Nor do they necessarily involve parents “bartering” their children.  The Indians I know who have entered into arranged marriages chose to do so because they thought it made sense - and they all got a say in whether they agreed to their parents’ choice or not.  Having culture, education and beliefs in common is at least as good a reason for marriage as having the hots for one another.

As for the Indian woman asking whether kids left home before marriage, what did you answer?  That here in the west, it’s increasingly common to have boomerang kids who move out, then move back home as relationships ebb and flow? 

And by the way, this isn’t a religious thing.  It’s a cultural thing. Arranged marriages occur in Islamic countries, in Hindu countries, in non-religious countries like China, and not so long ago, in Christian countries like Greece.

SimonFromLakemba says:

08:49am | 13/10/11

Happens for poor as well, Marley is right. In asian countries they still go by the village motto, so they marry people together that will keep the village together etc etc

jade (the other one) says:

10:40am | 13/10/11

@marley, the aversion to divorce, and the shame that is heaped on both families, as a direct result of the culture might also explain why these marriages stay together.

It’s not all roses and buttercups

marley says:

12:35pm | 13/10/11

@jade - neither is our proclivity for bailing out of marriage so easily.  Anyway, who ever said marriage was all roses and buttercups?  You have to be about five years old to believe in Prince Charming and living happily ever after.  Marriage is hard work, like anything worth happening.  Maybe those in arranged marriages are better prepared to put in the work, because they don’t have any illusions about what they’re getting themselves into.

Mayday says:

01:22pm | 13/10/11

Marley @ 9.47

As the parents peruse the choice of husband/wife in order for the family to prosper and reproduce they are on par with farmers and breeders who manage animal reproduction and make sure “females breed regularly.”

Any women who is not allowed to choose her future partner is no better than a breeding mare and this practice needs to be abolished. 

In response to the question I told her that in Australia once a child reaches the age of 18 they are free to make their own decisions and are not dependent on parents making decisions for them. 

In a western democracy an adult individual is responsible for their own actions and should no longer bow to their parents demands…...its called growing up.

marley says:

01:58pm | 13/10/11

@mayday - if what you said were true, I’d agree with you.  However, it isn’t.  It is based on a major misunderstanding about arranged (as opposed to forced) marriages.

I happen to have met some Indian parents who were in the process of arranging marriages for their kids (male and female).  I’ve also met quite a few people who have entered into arranged marriages. 

You don’t seem to realize that the arrangment is on both sides, not just on the side of the girl’s family.  It is certainly not about ensuring that girls “breed” on a regular basis. 

The parents’ first concern - that the boy/girl be of good character, and therefore likely to make their own child a good partner;  their second, that he or she have a similar background and education to their child, so that there would be interests in common;  third, that the prospective partner would have reasonable future prospects in terms of employment (no deadbeats need apply); fourth, that the two families could get along.  Lastly, but most importantly, that both the boy and the girl, having met on another, are happy with the arrangement.  In other words, the young folk get to exercise their own choice about whether they will or will not enter into the marriage.  The parents just do the filtering of potential candidates, they don’t make the decision. 

The children are exercising their choices every bit as much as you or I - they have simply exercised a choice to enter into an arranged marriage in the first place, and then the choice to enter into that marriage with a particular individual.  Those might not be your choices, but they are nonetheless real choices.  And yes, there are plenty of modern Indian women who do not choose to enter into arranged marriages.

As for Indian women, I think you will find that most educated Indian women (and their parents) have higher expectations than just finishing university and then “breeding.”  They work, have careers and do all the things that liberated western women do. 

No doubt, their family structure is closer than ours tend to be, with more interdependence of the generations - it’s not uncommon to have four generations living under a single roof in India.  I don’t personally see that as at all a bad thing.

jade (the other one) says:

03:28pm | 13/10/11

Ya know, there are many Muslim marriages between young girls (some who were married at 18 or younger) and much older men that work perfectly well. Why the disgust? Some Muslim girls I know actually welcome being married off to a much older man, as he will be older, more sensible, and able to appropriately form their mind and their morals, as well as able to take care of them.

I merely suggest that this respect for Indian ‘arranged’ marriages would be less palatable if some of the negative aspects were known. The Indian girls who remain in abusive marriages for the shame it would bring. The Indian men who are trapped in loveless marriages with women they are not attracted to because they didn’t want to offend anyone by saying no, or because the advantages of the match for the two families overall outweighed his singular interests.

I do happen to think that familial pressure plays too large a role in arranged marriages, particularly in Indian culture, to take such a rosy view, just because they work for a lot of people. I think the practice is somewhat problematic, and worth investigating to ensure that it is well regulated.

n_dude says:

05:41pm | 13/10/11

@mayday - who says that there is no coercion when you’re in love. I fanything when there is attraction and feelings involved you don’t always think rationally. In my experience when I was choosing all my considerations were practical and logical ones. There was also a risk because you don’t really know the person and so you may not actually work well together, but that is where the vetting of the family background comes into play. I have also seen where these do not work and typically that is where there is some level of coercion form the families. Free will and commitment are the keys to success and they have worked for us.

marley says:

05:50pm | 13/10/11

@Jade - I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying.  What I do disagree with is the across-the-board assumption by some commenters that arranged marriages must necessarily involve coercion or denial of rights and/or emotion.  Like every other social construct, marriage, both arranged and otherwise, is evolving.  And there are plenty of very successful arranged marriages out there.  I wouldn’t have wanted one for myself, but I’ve seen some pretty catastrophic love marriages, and some pretty successful arranged ones, and I’m not about to argue that one is inherently better than the other.

Nathan says:

07:12am | 13/10/11

What annoys me with people such as yourselves is an in ability to see things from a different perspective or a lack of compassion. Australia was built of the back of migrants not just White anglo’s.

I don’t believe what you believe does that mean i haven’t assimilated a word thrown around way to much that like the Southern Cross tats has turned into a symbol for Racism.

marley says:

07:19am | 13/10/11

Ummm, if you take a look at Anglo culture, marriage for love is a relatively new phenomenon.  In the past, marriages were about family alliances, property and inheritance, and other entirely materiel issues.  If you look at England or Australia a century or two ago, you’d find some pretty bizarre belief systems by our standards.

I know lots of Indians who have entered into arranged marriages.  The wives all had an opportunity to say yes or no to the proposed groom They’re all satisfied with their arrangements - married to men with similar family backgrounds, education levels and beliefs to their own.  Isn’t that pretty much what most of us are looking for?

iansand says:

07:36am | 13/10/11

I see a different message.  I see 3 girls, presumably educated in Australia, resisting a process incompatible with the values they have learned in Australia.  I wonder how many others have simply said “No”, and been respected by their parents?

Australian society is very seductive and traditions brought from the old country rarely survive the first locally born generation and never survive the second.  We have seen it with Italians and Greeks and Jugoslavs and Vietnamese and ... and ... Multi-culturalism is slow and insidious but it eventually produces a cohesive and vibrant society.

Bonestar says:

07:40am | 13/10/11

Nathan the migrants who helped make Australia great assimilated with the Australian way of life.

SimonFromLakemba says:

08:57am | 13/10/11

They do assimilate, I live in an area where I can say that, sure there are some which stick to the ways they know, but what people have to realise is a lot of migrants are 1st generation, in another 30 or so years they will be ‘Autralianised’ and wont be such an issue.

You only have to look around and see the amount of inter-racial marriages that are happening.

By the way, how is it any different when whites marry whites as opposed to arabs marrying arabs?

Budz says:

09:49am | 13/10/11

@Simon: Right on there with “By the way, how is it any different when whites marry whites as opposed to arabs marrying arabs? “

You just need to go out in the Eastern Suburbs to places like the Sheaf or The Beresford. It’s majority white people hanging out and hooking up with other white people.

SimonFromLakemba says:

10:48am | 13/10/11

@Budz

Hate those places just seem so fake!

Its not perfect where I am, but at least you see real everyday people.

Flag cape says:

12:10pm | 13/10/11

7 replies taking you seriously - nice troll duder. *snaps*

RB says:

12:18pm | 13/10/11

Budz & Simon, i know what you mean about those non assimmilating racist whites! Next thing you know they will be speaking english! In Australia! They act like they built this country! (which their forfathers did trolls). /sarc

KH says:

12:55pm | 13/10/11

iansand (and others) there seems to be some confusion here?  The 3 girls were being forced into marriage, in another country, and from what I have read, no opportunity to say no.  They were also mostly underage from memory.  Arranged marriage is a little different - the parents are actively seeking someone that is compatible, and the two parties are free to say no.  That is rather different - its like a living version of a dating site - instead of a computer program doing the compatibility check, a human does….......

Forced marriage is wrong wrong wrong.  Arranged marriage - I have met a number of people (usually of indian background) who have ended up being more than happy with the person found for them as all the dancing around and time wasting was avoided - they already knew the important stuff as the parents cut to the chase!  The parents only started looking when the person was ready as well - not when they turned 14.

iansand says:

02:00pm | 13/10/11

On the contrary, KH.  Those girls were sufficiently Australianised that they were not prepared to accept what was proposed and took steps to prevent it.  That is my point.

Peter says:

02:11pm | 13/10/11

KH - stupid question, but how do they “force” the marriage anyway?  Is it at threat of death or something?  Because if you think about it, what if in an “arranged” marriage the person is put under a lot of pressure to say “yes”.  What if they felt they would be excuminicated from the family if they didn’t go along?  My point is that there may be less difference between these two things forced vs arranged than you may think.

SimonFromLakemba says:

02:37pm | 13/10/11

@RB

Thanks, your a smart man! /sarc

marley says:

07:21am | 13/10/11

They’re not.  But plenty of Indo-Australians of the second and third generation don’t enter into arranged marriages anyway.

Kiddo says:

07:44am | 13/10/11

I am an Australian girl of indian heritage. Aussies of non-indian heritage rarely ask me out.

Tina says:

08:25am | 13/10/11

I guess though that when it comes to marriage a lot of people pick someone from the same cultural background. It is not racist, it is just looking for compatibility.

Lethario says:

08:56am | 13/10/11

Kiddo, an Australian girl with Indian heritage at my work married an Australian guy. They obviously love each other a lot, which is a good thing because the consequence of this relationship has been that the girl has been completely renounced, cut off, rejected by her parents, who are supposedly assimilated Australian citizens. The young girl is half happy, half devastated. What kind of suitor (or parent) would want to bring that sort of pain into the life of someone he loves? Many young guys, as I did once, will naturally steer clear when cultural differences are so defined and different. Sad but true.

Budz says:

09:16am | 13/10/11

Firstly Matt, not many Indians and Sri Lankans I know are going to have an arranged marriage. However a lot of them do choose partners from their own background, but that is always going to happen. In saying there there are also some that marry people from completely different backgrounds.

Kleia says:

03:22pm | 13/10/11

Kiddo - maybe you could try asking them out? There’s no harm in trying!

marley says:

07:31am | 13/10/11

@Tavare - there’s a huge difference between an arranged and a forced marriage.  I entirely agree that a forced marriage should be banned.  Arranged marriages, however, are a different issue - providing there is no element of coercion in it, and both bride and groom have choices, why is it any less legitimate than any other marriage?  You might choose to marry only for love;  an Indian might choose to marry for more practical reasons like financial and educational compatability.  Providing the intent to marry, live together and perhaps raise a family is there, why should it matter to anyone other than the participants?

iansand says:

07:39am | 13/10/11

A forced marriage will be annulled by the Family Court.  It is not a valid marriage under Australian law.  One of the requirements for a valid marriage is consent.

marley says:

08:40am | 13/10/11

@iansand - but what happens if the marriage takes place in a country which doesn’t have an issue with forced marriage - like Pakistan, for example?  Surely, that marriage, like any foreign marriage, would be recognized as legitimate in Australia until such time as someone actually applied for a divorce or annulment.  That’s the big problem with forced marriages in the UK, where this is a much more significant issue than it is here - the teenage bride is forced into a marriage, and then into sponsoring her groom for migration to the UK.  Since the marriage is recognized in the country of origin, it’s not all that easy refusing to husband a visa and residence status.

iansand says:

08:56am | 13/10/11

marley - As you seem so well informed perhaps you could enlighten us?

marley says:

10:01am | 13/10/11

@iansand - no, I’m asking you what the Australian legal attitude is to a forced marriage which occurs abroad. I realize that consent is required here, but what about marriages entered into without consent, or with very underage brides, which mght be perfectly legal overseas but wouldn’t be here.  Are they recognized for visa purposes?

iansand says:

11:08am | 13/10/11

marley - Why don’t you find out?  I have no idea what the visa rules are.  I realise you think I am the fount of all knowledge, but I cannot deal with your bizarre tangents forever.

A Dose of Reality says:

11:09am | 13/10/11

Marley.

No they (forced marriages) are not recognised for visa purposes.

The Department investigates the relationship further than the marriage ceremony/status.

Quite separate from the fact that overseas marriages are recognised as long as they are ‘legal’ in that country (with some exceptions, such as bigamy) is the fact that Migration Law requires that a DIAC case officer must be satisfied that the relationship (as opposed to marriage) is ‘genuine’ - and a quiet whisper from a young girl that it was forced on her proves the opposite.

marley says:

12:40pm | 13/10/11

@A Dose of Reality - thanks.  I was hoping that would be the answer.

jade (the other one) says:

03:36pm | 13/10/11

@Tavare, or Roma Gypsy girls to others in their community, or Bosnian girls, or any number of variations on the theme. Stop showing your ignorance.

@A Dose of Reality - how brave would a scared young girl have to be to speak up to officials and own that her marriage was forced? How many do you think actually do that?

A Dose of Reality says:

09:45pm | 13/10/11

jade (the other one):

I understand your point (and would agree if it were the point), however you mistake the process, and the example - used to ‘cut a long story short’..

It is obvious that in some cases, someone might be scared to admit that they were forced into a marriage (particularly if this could made known to those who forced her).

The point:
The DIAC (or DFAT if overseas) officers would determine if the relationship (note - not marriage) is genuine or not before deciding if a visa is to be granted. 

The process:
In doing so they will ask (both partners) ‘how did you meet?”.  In fact it is a requirement that both parties each write a Statutory Declaration (Sworn Statement) as to how they met and when, also how they decided to marry etc.

She would need only truthfully answer their questions (after all, she would be alone with the officials, away from controlling family members).  The Act also causes her to be protected from the disclosure of her answers (even in FoI requests).

Rose says:

09:44am | 13/10/11

So, does that mean they should also be free to marry the partner their parents introduced them to? That is, after all, what an arranged marriage is in most cases. The parents just introduce their kids to the person they think is most suited to their kids. Your horror stories come from forced marriages, a completely different ball game, which you would have understood if you bothered reading the article in full as well as many of the comments. I think you may have only taken on board the things which reinforced your narrow beliefs.

Anna C says:

02:48pm | 13/10/11

Rose, many arranged marriages really are forced marriages because the people involved don’t want to disappoint their parents or communities by refusing the person chosen for them.

I know of one person from an Indian background who falls into this category. He went through with his arranged marriage because he knew that his own choice of potential spouse (who was from a different background) would not be accepted by his family. He chose his family over the person they loved which is a bit sad. 

That’s why I think people should be free to marry whomever they choose free from any duress or family pressure.

Jane2 says:

09:24am | 13/10/11

The trouble is most of us cant seperate love from lust till its too late. Having an impartial person whom you listen to could save a lot of trouble.

How often have you looked at a couple and known they wouldnt last long before they got married? They didnt “match”. Didnt have similiar beliefs (and Im not talking religion here) and outlooks, had differing goals or didnt treat that person the way they should. We all see it but rarely speak up because “its not our business” or for fear of the “Ill show you” response. End result, marriages that could have been prevented happen and divources occur when the individuals realise what we all saw.

There are MANY benefits far beyond monentary or cultural/religious purity to arranged marriages.

marley says:

10:04am | 13/10/11

I have a good friend who has made two disastrous marriages. I never met hubby #1, but I worked with hubby #2 - and everyone who knew them knew that the two of them were totally incompatible.  The marriage lasted a couple of years.

My friend acknowledges that her choice of men is really really bad (not in terms of their character, just in terms of compatibility) and has vowed in future to have her friends “vet” anyone she gets serious about. 

So I guess you could say, she’s moving towards an arranged marriage herself.  And she’s as anglo as they come.

Katie says:

11:03am | 13/10/11

Interestingly the themes you are describing are most common in Bollywood productions which have the cultural backdrop of arranged marriage.

Rossco says:

11:49am | 13/10/11

I suggest if you drop your man-hating chip-on-your-shoulder personality at the door and show some patience you will find quite nice, honest and attractive gentleman on dating sites or in the social scene willing to work the hard yards to talk to a nice girl and getting to know her.

Girls with a chip on their shoulder or have a profile like a diva wont have much luck in finding the men on datings sites who seek out background, education or life belief among other things.

And yes you always have to get through the crap on any dating site or in the social scene to find the decent people.

Elphaba says:

12:07pm | 13/10/11

Jane2, a word of advice - don’t go looking for it.  Instead, go out and meet people and make new friends, and you will meet nice, genuine guys.

I’ve had more dates now than I ever had a few years ago, and it’s because I decided to stop looking.  It’s a total cliche, but it’s true.

And don’t use at online dating. There are better places to meet eligible single guys that don’t involve vetting their ‘profile’.

http://www.meetup.com

Kate says:

12:37pm | 13/10/11

Elphaba’s right. I went through the desperate, single, looking for a boyfriend around every corner stage and had zero luck. I mostly just met people who weren’t interested in a long-term thing. Then I stopped actively looking and started thinking about why I was so unhappy being single and what that said about me. Once I started to get over that insecurity, I was much more relaxed around guys, and met some decent ones (including my fiance). Obviously not all men are the same, but a lot of guys seem to go for women who seem confident and happy.

Budz says:

12:41pm | 13/10/11

Thanks for that site Elphaba!! Looks awesome!

Willie Mac says:

12:56pm | 13/10/11

At the very least, use your friends as a litmus test panel.

Tubesteak says:

12:58pm | 13/10/11

Not difficult to see why you’re having problems

Firstly, looks are important. Very important. No man wants to spend the rest of his life waking up next to a hippo.

No man want sto buy something without giving it a thorough test drive first. He has no guarantee of quality unless he finds out for himself. No man wants to think he’s buying a Ferrari (or in most cases in Oz an FPV) and end up with a rusted out Cortina.

Similar background: who cares.

SImilar education: men don’t really care what you do for a living (as long as you’re not a prostitute), how many letters you have after your name or how much you earn. There are other far more important factors than this (such as looks and performance). Also, the fact you couldn’t spell “divorced” or “monogamy” leads me to believe your educational background isn’t all that high.

Life belief: what is this? Usually when you’re dating women over the age of 30 it’s “I want children in 6 months”. Not surprised they can’t find a man with that life belief.

If you’re finding a lot of criminals then you have serious issues. It shows what you’re being attracted to and it doesn’t reflect well on you. I don’t know anyone with a criminal record because I don’t move in those circles.

Slightly invested = you’re guarded heavier than Helm’s Deep. No man could be bothered trying to penetrate that unless the prize is a Victoria’s Secret model.

Kelly says:

12:58pm | 13/10/11

Oh Rossco, Jane2 is just having a whinge. That does not equal man hating. Grow up.

Elphaba says:

01:04pm | 13/10/11

@Kate - bingo.  If you stop putting ‘relationship’ or even ‘casual fling’ at the top of your agenda and instead, put it close to the bottom, the offers start pouring in.

Like I said, it is so cliche it’s practically sickening, but it’s true.

@Budz - enjoy.  My social calendar has never been so full.

malohi says:

02:09pm | 13/10/11

Tubesteak! where have you been?
Your comment just made this thread a little brighter. I was so sick of hearing the peanut gallery talk about their indian friends.

I, Claudia says:

03:26pm | 13/10/11

Tubesteak - you’re right. Looks are extremely important. Which is why I detest the fat, balding, slothful men who approach me and who then screech that I’m “arrogant” when I profess to be seeking a man who values his health, fitness and appearance to the same extent that I do. That’s cool by you, right?

Jane2 says:

09:02am | 14/10/11

@ Tubesteak, just because someone cant spell doesnt mean they have a low level of education. How someone spells has nothing to do with how successful people are at getting bits of paper (as my Masters in Business, Bachelor of Computer Science and my soon to be completed Engineering Design course proves)

Additionally I know having bits of paper does not mean I am smart, it simply means I have the ability to learn….pity the dyslexia and growing up in teh phonic spelling era any spelling was teh correct spelling as long as the teacher could work out what it was, didnt teach me to spell. I have also learnt that the ability to spell really is not important, it hasnt stopped me from getting bits of paper or from getting a VERY well paying job where I manage 20 people.

As for the rest of your comments 8P

Tina says:

11:16am | 13/10/11

“Arranged marriage” is a very broad term. Of course Australians should all value freedom of choice. But as some here stated, their families have introduced them to eachother, maybe nudged them a little. It sometimes worked out and sometimes it didnt. That is maybe different to standard Aussie way, but no harm done.

A forced marriage is of course of more concern. A problem is though (I would assume) that usually these things are treated as “family affairs” and no member of the family would speak about it publicly and the victim is too much under pressure or worse.

RB says:

12:33pm | 13/10/11

Agreed Mick. 100%.

Kate says:

12:41pm | 13/10/11

I guess your family members might have been afraid that you’d ignore their advice and it would affect your relationship with them. My first long-term relationship was similar - I met a guy when I was 15 and spent four years with him. My dad hated him so much they couldn’t be in the same room, my mother loathed him and my friends thought he was a tool. My parents did mention this a couple of times, but I was pretty young, so I did the whole “you just don’t understand!!” thing and ignored them. Of course, they were 100% correct about him and he turned out to be a horrible person. I look back now and wish I’d listened, but there’s nothing they could have said back then that would have prevented me from making that mistake for myself.

OchreBunyip says:

01:12pm | 13/10/11

I make a point of giving my truthful evaluation of my friends new flames once I have had a chance to know them. It isn’t always greeted with thanks but so far my opinion is at least respected.

marley says:

12:37pm | 13/10/11

You do know that the concept of marrying for love is quite a recent one?  And very much a western concept as well.  The Indians, all 1 billion of them, seem to have been doing just fine in the baby-making stakes with their arranged marriages.

Jane2 says:

01:01pm | 13/10/11

Sexual desire and love can grow with familiarity as well as fade.

Budz says:

01:03pm | 13/10/11

@Emma: Do you think that the attractiveness you have for them can impair your judgement on their other areas?
By no means do you have to marry someone just because they have the same background, education etc. If you are attracted to them plus those other things and you get along with them, then you can get married.

Benevolent Rapscallion says:

01:04pm | 13/10/11

Yet the human race has increased in number throughout the ages and people have only been marrying for love in relatively recent times.

Emma says:

01:19pm | 13/10/11

Yeah but I doubt it was based on real desire. Marrying for love is a new concept but I would say that in the day when it wasn’t there was a lot more extra-marital sex going on. Now you can marry the object of your desire instead of finding it outside your loveless marriage. You’d be naive to think that all those Indian babies were legitimate I.e. Born of the marital father. Who doesn’t crave sex based on desire?? It’s freaking awesome. And you know what they say, pheremonally drived partnerships deliver more genetically viable offspring. That’s why sticking to your village creates ugly stupid people

Kika says:

02:09pm | 13/10/11

Emma.. you are obviously not married. The ‘romance’ dies after a few years. Trust me. Any of that passion you had for your partner before the wedding dies slowly after the monotony of daily life sets in. Yes I still find my husband very attractive and I love him to bits. But all that feeling dies and your love grows deeper as you form a ‘partnership’ with each other.  Eventually it all balances out whether you have a love marriage or not.

fml says:

01:15pm | 13/10/11

Since when has wanting what was best for your daughter a medieval practice? Im pretty sure thats a constant in all cultures.

RB says:

01:50pm | 13/10/11

I wonder if the 16 year old lebanese girls parents ‘only wanted what was best for her’  to fml….?

marley says:

02:01pm | 13/10/11

@RB - I once met a 13 year old girl who was about to marry a 27 year old guy.  Their families had arranged the marriage, and her parents had given consent, since she was under age.  They told me it was quite common in their village.  They were Greek.

Kika says:

02:12pm | 13/10/11

Hey RB, my parents wanted to hook me up with their friends son since I was BORN! I’ve always had that pressure to form a relationship with him. We’re not Indians. We’re Aussies! Arranged marriages is not a new concept. Love marriage is only a new thing and was invented in the Victorian era.

fml says:

02:48pm | 13/10/11

Whats that got to do with the example you presented?

Parents have a right to disapprove of their child’s suitor, the child also has a right not to listen to the parent. Happens all over the world. I dont think its a medieval practice.

As for the 16 year old girl, she won the court case. In the eyes of the parents, yer, they probably did think they were doing whats best for her, thankfully the courts produced the correct verdict.

I object to your original comment, of using your mates being disapproved of by immigrant parents as justification for telling people to leave their cultures at the door and you stereotypying of ‘New Australians’, just because it occured once (and the law one thankfully), it must be typical behaviour of ‘New Australians’? right? I object to generalisations.

SimonFromLakemba says:

02:53pm | 13/10/11

@RB

Unfortunately that 3rd world hole, India is helping keep Australia a float.

Not like marriage is treasured here either 40% divorce rate, not saying to much.

Kika says:

04:55pm | 13/10/11

Oh gosh no. Don’t breed with a lover! You need someone who can provide for the kids and is a good mother/father. Lust lasts 5 seconds. A child is forever!

marley says:

06:50pm | 13/10/11

@LJ - I think this is an evolving tradition - the arranged marriages I encountered involved maybe a few meetings, but certainly not months of “dating” - more like three or four meetings, chaperoned of course - and if everyone was okay with it, it was a go.  But India anyway is moving much faster than Indian communities abroad, so it’s probably already changed there from when I knew it, 15 years ago.’

And let us never forget the biggest marriage arranger of all there - the matrimonial classified ad sections of the Times of India.  Ads placed by both hopeful girls/boys and their parents.

Sam says:

06:26am | 16/10/11

“relationship”? doesn’t sound like it. Go play in the sandbox with the other children.