What’s wrong with a little Christmas spirit?

marley says:

05:49am | 14/12/11

The strange thing is, the subverters are all part of the western tradition as well.  You don’t see local Muslims or Buddhists getting all upset about Christmas trees or carols;  the hostility comes from within our own culture, not from without.

Nathan says:

06:25am | 14/12/11

hahah the war on Anglo/western traditions what about where the west has invaded other countries? How about Christian missionaries flocking around the world to impose their values on others?  You really only look at the world one way…..always the victim

gobsmack says:

07:33am | 14/12/11

I think the main culprits in undermining the original idea of Christmas have been american capitalists who have turned it into a consumer-fest.

Erick says:

07:48am | 14/12/11

@marley - True, this is a subversion largely of our own society’s making. That’s why I called it an “internal rot”.

Speaking of which ...

@Nathan - Thanks for giving an example of what I was talking about.

You fail to address the topic of my comment, and immediately jump into a pre-programmed leftist attack on Western society, its history and values.

Good little Gramsci-bot, you get a Correctness Cookie.

Steve M says:

07:56am | 14/12/11

Nathan,
  Your are correct and the missionary mentality is wrong. But so is this crap. Two wrongs dont make a right and using the other to excuse this is immature.

Rose says:

08:13am | 14/12/11

So Erick are you denying that the West has invaded other nations and that missionaries force-fed natives with Christianity (whether they wanted it or not)? These things happened and continue to happen, the West is not some pure, morally superior overlord, it has done some pretty terrible things and only by acknowledging that can we put global issues into perspective
Taking a balanced view is not an attack on Western values, it is how intelligent people formulate opinions and interpret things, but you know nothing about balance Erick, that is incredibly obvious from all the rants that you post.

L. says:

08:17am | 14/12/11

Nathan says
“How about Christian missionaries flocking around the world to impose their values on others?  “

Impose Christian values on others, or introduce other to those values..??

Economist says:

08:45am | 14/12/11

Google’s amazing look what I found from 354AD, an early blogger.

” I thee complain, what is this Christemaesse?

Yere be a war on Dies Natalis Solis Invicti. Me paranoid, me culture being undermined by this minority. Des Christians are awful people, just be quiet and stop being offended you heathens.

Ye solis will rise up and destroy all crops if we fail to worship.

Dan says:

08:48am | 14/12/11

Erick,

Anglo/Western culture has set the benchmark for the “gradual subversion of institutions”.

We’ve set ourselves as the high-water mark for morality, justice and democracy and from that position look down on everyone around us.

There’s no denying many Western democracies, Australia included, function as well as could be hoped. But it’s not up to us to impose our culture, however grand it may be, on others.

Erick, there is no ‘War on Christmas’, or a war on Western civilization. For years, the West has imposed it’s traditions, values and beliefs (even those as innocent as Christmas) on everything around it. The rest of the world has a right to say they don’t want it.

No one is saying “Down with the West! And down with Christmas!”. No one is stopping you doing anything. They’re just reserving their right to say “No, thankyou.”

Peter says:

09:00am | 14/12/11

@Economist - pure gold.  Sounds like Erick of the middle ages! Lol.

john says:

09:12am | 14/12/11

@Erik “This internal rot has caused great harm, and may yet achieve its goal.”

Perhaps but not quite in the sense you state.

Xmas will eventually be killed off by the corporations, we are so fatigued by Xmas starting with its decorations in September and by the time its Xmas Eve we will be so over it most of us will want to commit suicide to not experience one more time…. yet again.

And those dreadful office parties, you’ve spent a whole year with your back stabbing work mates, and this time instead of carving the sick over cooked woolies chook, you’d want to sink that knife into all those arseholes who peer pressured you into attending a party where you have to pretend your really enjoying it to prop up the half dozen poplar people….as your CEO who made another multimillion dollar bonus off your back whilst you try to scrape enough to by a xmas card, then makes an appearance shows his face to rub it all in…merry f****n Xmas.

Hopefully the atheists continue to covertly latch on and amplify some Muslim complaints about crucifixes at schools and have us believe its all so offensive for them over Xmas and in its death rows Xmas will finally be killed off to become so sterile with no decorations it will look like an operating theatre at St Vincents.

To top it off the media and the most powerful corporations on the planet like goldman sacks,one of many, that make insane profits from doom & gloom will rub in the Euro crisis in our faces to make us as miserable as possible, and tell us its the end of the world as we know it and we are heading for another depression. Bad news sells & makes short negative positioned financial monsters very very rich.

A self for-filling Xmas present prophecy.

Erick says:

09:26am | 14/12/11

@Rose - I’m not denying anything. I’m simply pointing out that those things are not relevant to the point I am making, which is about events largely internal to Western society. Nathan’s comment is an example of this cultural civil war in action.

@Dan - “No one is saying “Down with the West! And down with Christmas!”.”

Actually, many people are. They are the leftist social revolutionaries of whom I speak. You’ll find plenty of examples of “Down with Christmas!” if you read Tracey Spicer’s article, above. Go to any Western university to find “Down with the West!”.

Shama says:

09:32am | 14/12/11

I get confused by the Anglo/Western bit.  From what I hear the Orthodox Christmas is different and celebrated in the first week of January. So what kind of Christmas is the one that is being advocated? It doesn’t seem to be “Western” (whatever that means) as much as a hodge podge of English tradition and American marketing.

Plus the Christmas that is exported to the rest of the world resulting in every department stores tinselling itself stems from American movies and shows.  That is a separate Christmas universe altogether and hardly an argument for “look everyone is celebrating Christmas”. Its a bit like Australians celebrating Halloween.

There are all kinds of folks in Australia.  Either one celebrates everything (inspite of a strong Chinese presence we have yet to have a Chinese New Year holiday for e.g.) or drops the whole lot.  A significant amount of the Christian population itself doesn’t seem to care moaning about everything from shopping to the sales to drunk uncles to family (when do we see that standard article?). So I don’t see anything particularly wrong with the school’s approach, this piece seems much ado about nothing.

cybacaT says:

09:39am | 14/12/11

Erick

You are correct sir.  You don’t hear the muslim or jewish communities complaining.  It’s simply atheists with massive chips on their shoulders who seek to wipe out traditions like Easter and Christmas.

Dan says:

09:40am | 14/12/11

Erick, I’m talking about serious social and political movements. Not a couple of odd-ball, Christopher Hitchens types.

You need to lose less sleep about what goes on between leftist academics, over a glass of chardonnay, in major universities.

I’m asking, is it your right to exercise your culture and beliefs that’s under threat? Or the right of the West to impose them on whoever they please?

AdamC says:

09:40am | 14/12/11

Nathan, how are unspecified overseas missionary activity (the horror!) and foreign military conflicts relevant to the celebration of Christmas at a school in western Sydney?

At least Economist’s contribtion had the benefit of being amusing.

Matthew says:

09:58am | 14/12/11

“We’ve set ourselves as the high-water mark for morality, justice and democracy and from that position look down on everyone around us.

There’s no denying many Western democracies, Australia included, function as well as could be hoped. But it’s not up to us to impose our culture, however grand it may be, on others.”

Funny how you complain that we’ve set ourselves as the benchmark and then in the next paragraph say that yes we are the benchmark.  Australia works as well as *we* could hope which is why we live here.  There are also hundreds of thousands/millions of people that disagree with that, so strongly in fact that they’re willing to give their lives for it.  We say they’re brainwashed, they say we’re brainwashing them.

All humans are unique and will never agree on everything.  There’s only 3 ways to settle arguments: find a compromise, pay the disadvantaged group off or genocide.

john says:

10:05am | 14/12/11

@AdamC “how are unspecified overseas missionary activity (the horror!)”

Can you clarify if it missionary position activity or missionary religious activity, both seem ’ (the horror!)’ ” depends on your point of view which is worse. 

Erick says:

10:08am | 14/12/11

@Dan - I’m talking about a cultural civil war that has been fought in all sectors of Western society over the past fifty years. This thread is a part of it.

And yes, my right to express my culture and beliefs is under threat. As are the rights of many others. The war on Christmas, above, is just one small part of a much larger picture.

john says:

10:27am | 14/12/11

@Matthew"All humans are unique and will never agree on everything.  There’s only 3 ways to settle arguments: find a compromise, pay the disadvantaged group off or genocide. “

You left out number 4, to disconnect the individual from the real world collective, you create a www, promote individualism in your education & sporting culture,{competition winner takes all} invent smartphones and online apps to create your own individual world to dis-empower you to twitter & facebook in a silent virtual world.

The next war is already well under way - in silence - Iran took down a drone without a shot fired. The west took out its nuclear facility with a nasty computer virus Iran 1 West 1 all.

John the Zombie says:

10:58am | 14/12/11

@rose and @nathan. Have you guys ever wondered how Islam spread across the world as well? How did it arrive in countries like Indo or into India? Maybe before saying another word you should really look this up. Look up the great Islamic crusades as Christians weren’t the only one conquering, killing and converting people.

Also are you calling people like Mother Teresa evil as she was a Christian who went to India to help people? I recon there are a billion Indians who would disagree with you. Ever travelled to India and see how the caste system works? Ever seen how if you are a low caste or untouchable how hard it is to get an education, job or medical care? Do you know who are the people that help these people come up and do not look at them based on caste but as humans. It is these Christian you so eagerly belittled in your comment. I have been to India and I have seen it. Tell me Nathan and Rose would you prefer to convert to a religion that saw you as equal as opposed to one the belittled you because you were born into a certain caste?, would you choose a religion that provides your child with equal education or one that refuses him entry to a school because of his caste?

Please tell me your answers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurangzeb

Economist says:

11:20am | 14/12/11

@Erick, 50 years?? You mean since the dawn of man. The only things that’s constant is change. There has always been subcultures having more influence than others. This influence has either been imposed or adopted, due to its popularity.

Interestingly my child goes to a Montessori school and at their concert they performed carols without changing the words. So what if you had some overzealous teacher thinking they’re doing the right thing. Some parents would take offense, others couldn’t care less and others would support. As a parent I will raise my children with our traditions in mind some of which may be adopted and passed on to their kids, some of which may not. I’m not going to get my knickers in a knot about it.

Well here’s my Xmas message. We seem to focus too much on our differences than our similarities. Like you Erick I want a world free of corruption, a more equal world, a world where we recognise the contributions to society, we may have differences on how this will be achieved, but despite these differences I still love you in a man, in a manly kind of way. Have a Merry Xmas Erick and I’ll blog with you in the New Year.

Horns Up says:

11:20am | 14/12/11

“And yes, my right to express my culture and beliefs is under threat. As are the rights of many others. The war on Christmas, above, is just one small part of a much larger picture.”

@Erick - and yet hear ye be expressing away. ICB.

You’re too early to be a martyr, try again at Easter.

\m/

Bruno says:

11:22am | 14/12/11

Long before the anglos ventured out of their caves, there was a bloke called Jesus who rallied against both the foreign westerners and his local peoples traditions and values. Considering Jesus was a Jew, in can also be argued he was a socialist, but back to the Jew part, considering he was a Jew and his followers were persecuted by Westerners for a few hundred years after his death I think what you meant to say Eric was there is a war on Eastern traditions and values. This war has been going on for over 2000 years. We have slowly taken their traditions, got rid of the meaningful stuff and replaced it with the notion that its un-Australian to not prop up the economy every December.

Erick says:

12:12pm | 14/12/11

@Economist & Bruno - Yes, I know that cultural change and cultural struggles have been going on since the beginning of humanity. That’s blindingly obvious.

But I am not talking about the whole of history. I am talking about one specific cultural conflict which has been going on within Western societies for the last half-century or so. If you read my comments, this will become clear.

@Horns up - Apparently you don’t understand the meaning of the word “threat”. Let me help.

Horns Up says:

01:21pm | 14/12/11

@Erick - If there was a genuine threat then you won’t be on here have a big old whinge.

But hey, I’m guessing you don’t understand the meaning of the word “whinge”. Let me help

\m/

Erick says:

02:52pm | 14/12/11

@Horns Up - On the contrary, it is precisely because there is a genuine threat that I am “having a whinge”, as you put it. If there was no threat, there would be no reason to warn people or take action against it.

But you already know this. You’re just playing dumb, and there’s no point continuing to play along.

Cute little Google trick, by the way. Where did you learn that?

Horns Up says:

03:15pm | 14/12/11

@Erick - Then in what way have you been threatened? How is your celebration of whatever religious fairy tale you choose to believe in been threatened? Much like the myths you believe in and your weak man hate delusions, you’re making it up.

Please do try and do better than your usual sad paranoia when responding.

“Cute little Google trick, by the way. Where did you learn that? “

What basic html, you think that’s clever? Well that explains a lot.

\m/

SpagBol says:

03:24pm | 14/12/11

Ah, one school decides to turn it’s back on an out-dated religious practice and suddenly it’s a giant war, a conspiracy, and a revolution all in one.

If only my life was boring and worry-free, then I could probably turn an insignificant issue like this into a major cry-fest as well.

If only…

Colin says:

03:39pm | 14/12/11

@ Nathan, yeah it was terrrible how those Catholic missionaries put an end to the practice of human sacrifices amongst the Aztec/Maya cultures. Ditto for how Catholic and other Christian missionaries put an end to polygamy.

Greg says:

03:54pm | 14/12/11

cybacaT, you’re right in saying that the Muslims don’t complain about Christmas, at least not in Australia anyway.

But the Jews hate it big time, and it seems that they always have. Jesus was Jewish, and they hate him too - look it up for yourself in the Talmud.

And almost everytime a lawsuit is initiated to prevent a Christian celebration from happening in a public place, the person initiating the action is Jewish.

Yet all of the fundamentalist Christians are rabidly pro-Zionist, pro-Israel and pro-Jewish.

There must be a reason for this strange relationship between Christians and Jews, but it is obviously too politically incorrect to become public knowledge.

Bruce says:

04:03pm | 15/12/11

Erick: Somewhat agree. Have a look at your local large shoping complex. Notice the general absence of the words “Merry Christmas” or ‘happy new year”. You may find these words in some shops but not the actual shopping centre itself. Also, have a look inside many of the large “franchise” shops which are in most large shopping complexes. My observation is that just about all have NO christmas decorations or the words “Merry Christmas” displayed. I wonder why that is ?  I know, !  its a neutral holiday !

KH says:

06:05am | 14/12/11

Thanks moron.  Go pray to your imaginary people you deluded loser.

Di Pearton says:

06:11am | 14/12/11

I think you have forgotten the ‘love’ bit of Christ’s teachings??

Sniper says:

06:35am | 14/12/11

You are a class act KH

Rob says:

06:50am | 14/12/11

I can just feel the love of Christ in this person

RC Henry says:

06:53am | 14/12/11

I’m an atheist, probably not a militant atheist, brought up in a largely Christian society. I enjoy Christmas carols, like to see Christmas trees and exchange presents with my family and friends. It’s been part of my culture for 64 years. I don’t celebrate it as a religious event and I respect the right of others to believe what they wish no matter how stupid or ignorant. So we aren’t all awful people Nick in the same way that all Christians aren’t nice people.

Mahhrat says:

07:01am | 14/12/11

Do unto others, Nick.

Matt says:

07:10am | 14/12/11

That’s a bit of a broad generalisation, isn’t it Nick? Surely saying all atheists are awful, offended by anything cretins, is akin to comparing all christians to the “god hates fags” Westboro Baptist Church crowd? Seriously, christians, just shut the fuck up and stop being offended by anything, you illogical cretins, am I right?

ShamWow says:

07:32am | 14/12/11

Troll.. don’t feed it.

KH says:

08:08am | 14/12/11

“Memo Montessori: It’s all about a baby born around, ooh, 2000 years ago. Christians, who incidentally make up 64 per cent of the population, reckon he’s the Son of God. You know that fat bloke in the red? Well, it ain’t all about the presents.”

Interesting. Since ‘Santa’ didn’t exist until just over 100 years ago.  A coca cola advertisement as I remember - an American invention..  ‘St Niklaus’ is a European tradition, but he was an old guy with a stick, not a jolly fat man in a shiny red suit.  And he is all about the presents.  I was made to attend a convent school as a child (obviously they just couldn’t brainwash me, despite trying really hard) and I never heard of the baby jesus being surrounded by elves from the North Pole bearing Nintendo 3DSs.

Rhino says:

08:56am | 14/12/11

Goddamn, christians like you are just intellectual property pirates. Seriously, just stop stealing our pagan rituals, rebranding them as your own, and stop being offended by someone sharing the holiday feeling without reference to the pagan rituals you rebranded as your own, you wrong godded cretin.

jg says:

09:34am | 14/12/11

As an agnostic with an atheiest partner, I still have a little xmas tree and sing xmas carols.

I have no problem with it. Neither does my partner. In fact we quite like xmas.

Whereas you, I’m afraid, are a bigoted moron.

neo says:

11:07am | 14/12/11

Nick, not all atheists are like that, just a large number of the ones who post on the Punch it seems. But don’t stoop down to their level of belittling others, they do it because they are not very intelligent, educated and cultured, we can’t blame them for that, we can only try to show them the error of their ways.

Not a troll says:

11:36am | 14/12/11

Nick is a troll people, a person trying to disgiuse themself as someone else and somehow you believe it. Stop feeding him.

marley says:

06:05am | 14/12/11

@Dan - I think you missed the point of this article.  Christmas for many people isn’t a particularly Christian holiday;  it’s a part of our secular culture as well.  All the kids, Christian or not, expect to get a school break then.  People are going to put up Christmas trees and hang lights, whether they believe in Christ or not.  And carols are a part of our culture as well - and not all of them have a particularly religious message either (Frosty the Snowman?  Rudolph?  White Christmas?)

It is ludicrous for schools which are educating young people to refuse to admit the existence of Christmas, or to bowdlerize it, and the carols, to the extent described.  Do you really think that the children of Hindus or Buddhists or atheists are too fragile to be taught that the celebration of Christmas has been a part of our social fabric for centuries?

Putting up a Christmas tree in the school yard and making decorations for it is hardly religious indoctrination, any more than learning about Diwali or Ramadan would be.  Or perhaps we shouldn’t let our kids know about other religions and cultures either.

Maus says:

06:11am | 14/12/11

Here here Dan. My thoughts exactly.

I wish there was a an equivalent of ‘PC madness’ to describe a traditionalist whinger.

If you want to sing Christmas Carols and act out the nativity, do with your church or a group of like-minded friends. Not at our secular state schools.

Timmy says:

06:12am | 14/12/11

Issue: They have chosen to celebrate a “Christian festival” in a way that removes the explanation for the celebration. Sort of like throwing a birthday party for someone while not inviting them or mentioning them.

Di Pearton says:

06:15am | 14/12/11

Dead right, I would guess that a parent choosing a Montessori school is not looking for your mainstream kitsch Christmas experience?

marley says:

06:26am | 14/12/11

@Di Pearton - if the school doesn’t want the mainstream kitsch Christmas experience, then why sing bowdlerized versions of Christmas carols at all?  That is far kitschier than the real thing.

Joan says:

07:37am | 14/12/11

Yep lets get really radical and cancel the Christmas public holidays - totally meaningless in Australian secular society. Its so kitsch,  meaningless, pointless,  As for businesses closing down between Christmas Day and New Years day what a rort!- . Lets keep the secular State Schools open and the teachers working, lets keep the wheels of Gillard Education Revolution turning, .  - its all a pointless waste of precious time leaving those new buildings, computers, idle. Out with Christmas holidays,out with Santas, Christmas trees the whole kaboodle, the anti - Christmas whingers and whiners and let Christians enjoy Christmas as it was meant to be out of the distorted phoney limelight it has become since control taken over by the secular.  Christmas is not a time for the secular, time to stop the secular control of Christmas-time to stop meaninless public holidays at Christmas. Time to give back Christmas to Christians

Babe in the Woods says:

07:52am | 14/12/11

@Timmy, good point!  (hits the non-existant like button)

Dan says:

08:05am | 14/12/11

Marley,

Christmas is a particularly Christian holiday. Everyone, Christian and non-Christian, enjoys the Summer break. And there are plenty of non-Christians who enjoy sitting around, getting drunk, eating turkey and swapping gifts on the 25th of December - myself included.

But it’s still a Christian festival. I would expect that the parents of those kids sent to a secular school wouldn’t appreciate them singing praise over the birth of Christ.

No one is trying to cancel Christmas, no one is going to stop you going to Church on Christmas Eve. We just ask that it be left out of secular schools - alongside the end of Ramadan, Chanuka and other similar festivals.

Given the abundance of very high-quality Christian schools, why is this necessary in secular schools?

MarkS says:

08:10am | 14/12/11

As many have stated before, Christmas is a rebadged pagan festival. Most of the images are not Christan at all, lights, trees, fake snow etc, all mid winter hangovers.

But it loses something when we try to remove it from its cultural matrix. The rebadging is important as well. I am an atheist and I consider that trying to airbrush Christ out of Chrismas is silly.

KH says:

08:57am | 14/12/11

Exactly.  If you choose to have a religious bent on your childs education, then send them to that kind of school - there are plenty of them around.  You want sing alongs about religious people? Go to church.  I bet the people complaining the loudest didn’t go to church this week or any other week.

James1 says:

09:04am | 14/12/11

“Given the abundance of very high-quality Christian schools, why is this necessary in secular schools?”

On the other hand, what harm does it do?  At my daughter’s public school, they celebrate Christmas.  As it happens, the only family that refused to participate were Jehovah’s Witnesses.  There is a Muslim boy in her class, so they also celebrated Eid this year.  There was a Jewish girl and a Hindu girl last year, so they did Diwali and discussed Passover as well.  No harm was done.

We are not indoctrinating our child into any religion (or none) and are leaving her to make her own choice when she gets old enough.  But when she asked about Christmas, we just told her that is when Christians celebrate their birth of the son of their god.  Just like when she asked me about Almighty Zeus, and I told her he was at the head of the Greek pantheon.  No harm done.  In fact, she might even get to enjoy the varying celebrations along the way. 

If your world view and beliefs will be destroyed by enjoying the culture and celebrations of others, or by witnessing them do something differently to you, then you are clearly a very weak person and never really held your own religion or culture in very high esteem to begin with.

jg says:

09:37am | 14/12/11

Here’s a wild and radical idea. If you want your kids to celebrate Christian holidays, send them to Christian schools.

That whooshing sound was the point as it passed you by.

Dan says:

10:29am | 14/12/11

JG,

Actually I get the point. I agree that Christmas does mean many different things, to many different people. And I agree with James above, that it’s not terribly threatening.

But it’s still a religious festival. It’s a celebration of the birth of Christ - certainly, it’s grown into much more, but that’s still it’s basis. And there’s a strong argument that says a religious celebration really doesn’t have any place in secular schools.

Christmas isn’t dangerous, or subversive. I’m not religious, and I still consider it a wonderful thing. But it still seems like a strange fit in a secular school. And I don’t think we can start heaping blame on a secular school, for choosing not to celebrate it with their students.

if you want your kids celebrating Christmas with nativity sets and angels and virgins etc, why not send them to a Christian school?

(Granted - the whole “Happy Holidays, joy and zest” thing sounds pretty bizarre. I’d hope there are less awkward ways to avoid the issue.)

neo says:

11:10am | 14/12/11

And if you don’t want to celebrate Christmas, please turn up to work on the public holidays, and tell your payroll officer that you want to be paid at normal rates. Until then, stfu.

Blind Freddy says:

11:43am | 14/12/11

@Joan

I think that you will find that the unions had more to do with getting workers paid leave than Jesus did. If you want to spend your time off work thanking God for it then feel free to do so.

Time off work isn’t just for Christians- just like the Queen’s Birtrhday isn’t just for royalists. If the Queen and Jesus didn’t exist then they would have to invent them because productive people need recreation.

rachel says:

12:30pm | 14/12/11

“Here’s a wild and radical idea. If you want your kids to celebrate Christian holidays, send them to Christian schools.”

the problem with that is that then you are segregating religions. I don’t think that works particularly well either.

yobogod says:

05:48pm | 14/12/11

“neo says: 12:10pm | 14/12/11
And if you don’t want to celebrate Christmas, please turn up to work on the public holidays, and tell your payroll officer that you want to be paid at normal rates. Until then, stfu.”

I don’t believe in gambling, and yet i’ll happily take Melbourne Cup Day off for a lark here or there ....to do otherwise would be un-Australian .....no?

KH says:

06:08am | 14/12/11

Excuse me?  You don’t speak for all of us. ‘We’ don’t all suffer from delusional ideas of invisible people in the sky.

Winston says:

06:21am | 14/12/11

@KH

She speaks for the majority of the country though.

Nathan says:

06:21am | 14/12/11

Whilst i agree that this PC gone made but we are not a christian country,  the separation of church and state ensures this. The church doesn’t represent me or most of the population either

wakeuppls says:

06:26am | 14/12/11

@KH Ah, another atheist type who has no problem insulting people’s belief system for no other reason but that you don’t agree with it. By the way, I am not religious at all.

Usually atheists are fairly liberal and on the left. Is this true of you? If so, I’d encourage you to practice some of your tolerance hyperbole and let people believe what they want to believe.

mick says:

06:26am | 14/12/11

The sad reality MargD is that our Christian way of life has been under threat for some time.  Also this is the second day teachers have been blamed for misguiding our youth.

The rot started at Bankstown Shopping Square many years ago when a growing Lebanese population managed to ban Christmas music in the shopping centre because it was offensive to them.  So much for tolerant multi culturalism.

Personally I’d like to play agnostics and atheists and civil libertarians at their own game.  If they don’t believe in God then they should not have the holidays and not celebrate the occasion.  Watch them squirm when you suggest such a sacrilege
. Christmas is about celebrating the birth of Christ and the ongoing bullshit about not offending other religious views is just plain bullshit from those who want a bet each way.  These religions need some of the religious tolerance which the rest of the population affords them.  The celebration does not harm them any more than Ramadan offends those who are not of that faith.

I wish those in power would stop trying to appease those who often demand their own rights in defiance of all others.

wakeuppls says:

06:26am | 14/12/11

@KH Ah, another atheist type who has no problem insulting people’s belief system for no other reason but that you don’t agree with it. By the way, I am not religious at all.

Usually atheists are fairly liberal and on the left. Is this true of you? If so, I’d encourage you to practice some of your tolerance hyperbole and let people believe what they want to believe.

yobogod says:

06:35am | 14/12/11

” Everyone has the right to their own beliefs and that is the reason this country is so attractive to migrants”

Whilst Australia may have been founded by Christians, it is not a Christian country, not even the “White Australia Policy” could stop the move towards multiculturalism.

“Why do these unseen people make these decisions knowing how much controversy it will stir up.”

Sometimes making the right decision isn’t about keeping people happy, any parent of teenagers or headstrong toddlers should know this.
This is not an attack on Christians, once you get over that paranoia, you are free to jump off the time out stool.

Al says:

07:29am | 14/12/11

mick re: ” If they don’t believe in God then they should not have the holidays and not celebrate the occasion.”
But that would be discriminatory action by the government on the basis of religion which is illegal.
The only way it could work is if no one was ‘given’ the holidays (the Public Holidays) paid off, and if they wanted the time off it would be unpaid or come out of their leave balance.
I personaly would have no issue with this if they increased a persons leave under legislation to include the equivelent of all public holidays (10 days per year approx) and no one gets those days off automaticly but only on application for leave (which could be based on their need to celebrate a religous event).

Unionist says:

07:39am | 14/12/11

@mick; I think you will find the end of year holiday season was a product of the Unions not Jesus, god or any other imaginary friend you might like to follow. As for the other religious holidays us Atheists until recently had no choice since you lot have had everything closed down. But we’re starting to win that ideal too. Thanks for Atheists who keep the place a rocking. So in turn make sure you don’t use any of the open infrastructure and retail outlets while you are celebrating your religious holiday eh’ hence you might cement the idea further that you lot are a bunch of hypocrites.

HappyCynic says:

09:52am | 14/12/11

@mick

You’ve repeated that lie about Bankstown Shopping Centre numerous times and numerous people (like the ones who live in and around Bankstown) have told you that your lie simply isn’t true.  Find some new material to blame on muslims or stop blaming them for your own ills.  Try the jews for once, we’re overdue for a nice little blood pogrom or maybe have a go at the buddhists they’re just so bloody non-offensive to everybody, maybe the hindus can annoy you for a little while.

Attacking muslims, agnostics and atheists for problems of your own making is just silly, christians themselves have spent decades trying to make Xmas more inclusive and more secular and less about Jesus.  If I wanted to be a cynic I’d say it is done because people tricked into celebrating Xmas are going to be more easily tricked into converting to christianity, but in reality most normal christians (not the angry, foul type like yourself) just want to spread the joy around a little.

Nothing wrong with a little joy, I don’t buy into it myself, too commercial and mostly insincere, but others of other religions do like a little Xmas cheer.

Happy Holidays

Matt says:

10:03am | 14/12/11

This is not a Christian country, this is a secular country… as evidenced by your later statement “Everyone has the right to their own beliefs and that is the reason this country is so attractive to migrants; the right to practice their religion alongside us.”

neo says:

11:12am | 14/12/11

Australia is a Christian country and will remain to be so as long as it publicly celebrates Christian holidays and the major religion remains to be Christianity. The fact that there is no official religion does not change this.

LaDiva says:

06:57pm | 14/12/11

@HappyCynic

Do you know whatever happened to the synagogue in Bankstown? There is an aged care facility now on what I remember was the synagogue site in Meredith Street.

malohi says:

06:53am | 14/12/11

Every Who down in Whoville liked Christmas a lot,
But the Grinch, who lived just north of Whoville, did not.
The Grinch hated Christmas — the whole Christmas season.
Oh, please don’t ask why, no one quite knows the reason.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight.
It could be his head wasn’t screwed on just right.
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.

TL;DR? Metaphoric reference to green humbugging asshole

Paul C says:

07:27am | 14/12/11

GRINCH - isn’t that another term for Wayne Duck?  How’s the pay-rise sitting Mr Treasurer?

Rose says:

07:30am | 14/12/11

Dr Suess book and movie…“The Grinch who stole Christmas”

Rob Knowles says:

09:14am | 14/12/11

Thank you Rose for your sane answer to my Question,what does Grinch mean.

John K says:

10:14am | 14/12/11

Yes thanks Rose, you very sane person.  But the question remains - Where did Dr Suess get Grinch from and what does it mean?  Perhaps Rob could just Google “GRINCH” and all would be revealed. Then he would realise that the presumably ‘insane’ comments are very accurate.

Troy Flynn says:

03:27pm | 14/12/11

If the Grinch comes from North of Whoville, does that make Horton God?

Matt says:

07:12am | 14/12/11

Bitch please. You cannot be serious. After the last 2000 years?

Rose says:

07:29am | 14/12/11

Rubbish, all religions are subject to vilification by those who are ignorant and insensitive. Muslims cop a hard time from atheists and Christians, Christians generally only suffer at the hands of atheists.
I don’t see why people feel the need to belittle others based on religious beliefs, to me it says more about the stupidity of the insulter rather than anything about the insulted!

Julie says:

07:33am | 14/12/11

I feel afraid Winston….  how much longer do you think it will be before we are dragged out of our homes and imprisoned/executed for ‘hate crimes’  or ‘thought crimes’  by the ‘tolerent’ lefties?????

ShamWow says:

07:35am | 14/12/11

@Winston, I like what you did there.

James1 says:

09:22am | 14/12/11

Rose, its not the people I like to make fun of, but their beliefs.  That is because those beliefs are funny to me. I even like to make fun of some things that I believe.  Like the South Park episode about manitees writing for Family Guy said: either everything is okay to make fun of, or nothing is.

Just because some Muslim or Christian might take themselves too seriously and get precious about it is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned.  If their world view is so fragile that a bit of poking fun will shatter it, that is their issue, not mine.

Stone age liberal says:

12:31pm | 14/12/11

Do we villify Flat earthers? As we understand more and more about the universe in which we inhabit earlier ideas describing our surroundings will fall into disrepute as we gain better understanding. The descriptions in most religions as to how the earth was created, how people came about etc. all seem very silly these days and I guese it is hard for us who are not willing to rely on “faith” not to react badly to those who still follow the old myths

Lostinperth says:

01:22pm | 14/12/11

@James1 “Just because some Muslim or Christian might take themselves too seriously and get precious about it is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned.  If their world view is so fragile that a bit of poking fun will shatter it, that is their issue, not mine.”

So if I make racist jokes or poke fun at disabled people it is their problem if they get upset?

James1 says:

01:43pm | 14/12/11

No Lostinperth, there is a difference that people often overlook.

A Christian has made a choice to accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour.  A Muslim chooses to submit him/herself to the will of Allah.  A disabled person exercises no such choice in their condition.  Also, people are born of a particular race, it is not something they choose.

Thus, if we make fun of the beliefs of a Christian or a Muslim, we are making fun of a choice.  It is akin to me making fun of Xbox 360 players, or someone making fun of the fact I can play the banjo.  If we make fun of a person’s race, we are making fun of an innate characteristic.  This difference is central, and explains why your comparison is invalid.

Troy Flynn says:

03:39pm | 14/12/11

Rose, you forgot the Coptic christians in Egypt. They do suffer from muslim persecution. So, it’s not just atheists who attack christians. Oh, and aethists rarely kill people over their different religions. And don’t try to claim Hitler & Stalin as aethiests either. They too were christians.

marley says:

06:32pm | 14/12/11

@Troy Flynn - Stalin most certainly was not a Christian.  He may have been raised as one, but so were most other atheists.  By the time he attained power, destruction of the church was one of his goals.

Julie Downs says:

07:30am | 14/12/11

It was Christians who fought for your right to be educated, receive health care, welfare for the poor, justice in the courts for victims, free speech & to have your life recognised as unique, special and sacred.  I’m sorry you regret having Christian ideals/beliefs forced on you.  Don’t worry though…. the anti Christian zealots have brought in a culture of death.  Abortions on demand for any reason at any time (Victoria)  Euthanasia to relieve the costs associated with caring for the old and disabled (check out last yrs report by EPAC)  destruction of marriage (look for the homosexual/bi/transgender education coming to a school near you) The introduction of Hate Crime laws (I’m going to be arrested in the near future for speaking out like this)  Sing with me….“Communism’s coming to town….”  BTW just last month USA introduced a bill allowing them to arrest any citizen, without warrants or evidence and hold then indefinitely!!  WOW!!  That one will be here in a few yrs (you know how we love to embrace everything USA!!” )  Be careful what you wish for… and God Bless You xxx

mel says:

09:38am | 14/12/11

Julie Downs, was it only christians who fought for all those things? Was no-one else involved? Ever?

And your talk about the anti-christian zealots (are you being anti semitic there?) bringing a culture of death: thank god christians have never gone around killing people for not being christian. Oh wait, they have. Thank god again that such religious excess in the west was tempered with the rise of secular humanism and the waning of church power.

And isn’t it funny that it was the USA that brought in such a law, given it’s one of the most religious of western nations, and that christianity is by far the preferred religion? I guess you christians love a bit of totalitarianism.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2002/12/19/among-wealthy-nations/

Economist says:

11:24am | 14/12/11

@Julie Downs. Ii was Christians who fought for your rights ..... ummmm you do realise that they fought against other Christians for these rights. In fact if anything they were simply the centre left, occupy movement of their day, fighting for the 99%.

Troy Flynn says:

03:52pm | 14/12/11

Yes Julie, I’m sure the “Fuzzy WuzzY Angels” worshiped at the alter of Jesus didn’t they. Or at least maybe they did once they’d been indoctrinated by christians, I don’t know. Are the people of Papua christian now?

Chris L says:

04:03pm | 14/12/11

“It was Christians who fought for your right to be educated” - One had to be educated at a seminary. So it wasn’t for the right of non-Christians.

“receive health care” - Medical research was considered blasphemy for many centuries. It was Christianity that retarded the progress of science.

“welfare for the poor” - OK, that one is correct. Keep firing and you have to score a hit sometime.

“justice in the courts for victims” - I consider the women falsely accused of witchcraft to be victims, along with a plethora of others who suffered under Christian “justice”.

“free speech” - Unless it’s blasphemy, let alone atheism. Prison for the lucky ones, barbeque for others.

“to have your life recognised as unique, special and sacred” - As long as you don’t display critical, independant thinking.

Regarding euthanasia, I’ll be signing up if ever faced with a lingering, agonising death. Think what you like of me, but I want such an option available, not denied simply because a book that instructs people to kill those wearing differing types of cloth will not allow people to end their own suffering at a time of their choosing.

As for marriage being destroyed by the idea of allowing gays into the institution, WTF? What percentage of marriages are working currenty and how do you expect that to get worse from gay people getting married?

One last point. The American populace is strongly religious. It also happens to have a very high crime rate, especially compared to more atheistic populations such as Scandinavia.

Mahhrat says:

07:03am | 14/12/11

heheh.  Noice.

VVS says:

07:19am | 14/12/11

Gay apparel…? You mean skinny jeans, right?

Chris L says:

04:06pm | 14/12/11

@VVS - with holes over the bum cheeks.

yobogod says:

06:28am | 14/12/11

This country was invaded and then subsequently conquered by a Christian people, the Aboriginal Nations of this country pre-date that event, something that IS taught in schools Nowadays.

You, as a religious person, are still quite free to celebrate whatever you wish, you are Not allowed, however, to force those practices on the rest of the population.

“The parent who felt so strongly and made that complaint has the choice to remove his child from that school. That is the beauty of being Australian, WE have a choice.”
Back at you.

Unionist says:

07:24am | 14/12/11

@yobogod; Spot on!! Funny how these Christian types claim to have founded this country. They also instigated stealing children from the people they like to forget about, lovely morals eh’

Steve M says:

07:44am | 14/12/11

so the majority of parents who want to see little Johnnie or Jennie on stage in their felt outfit singing their little hearts out get to miss out because of one or two self centred whingers. yeah, great.
  That is the unfortunate circumstance of Australia now. The whingers are given to much air time. These whingers are allowed to push their beliefs onto the rest. Fair eh? So as Australians we dont have a choice. The PC brigade are taking over. When the response they should be getting is “pull your heads in your pack of twits”

Bev says:

07:56am | 14/12/11

yobogod says:07:28am | 14/12/11

You, as a religious person, are still quite free to celebrate whatever you wish, you are Not allowed, however, to force those practices on the rest of the population.

As an atheists neither are you allowed to stop other people doing as they wish. However hypocritical atheist zealots do not believe in live and let live and don’t think that rule applies to them.  They are far worse than the christian zealots they have taken over from.

wakeuppls says:

08:16am | 14/12/11

@Unionist Why don’t you try to keep your arguments in the present instead of referring to the past actions of a few that no people here condone or took part in. Thanks.

mel says:

09:05am | 14/12/11

Wakeuppls, I think you’ll find that yobogod was responding to a comment by Peter. He started the ball rolling by saying “I thought this country was founded on Christian Beliefs” so surely it’s fair enough to talk about the past, especially as Peter is mistaken. The Australian constitution didn’t give any preference to christian beliefs, so I have no idea where christians get such muddleheaded notions.

Did you not read the original comment that Peter made?

Prosperity says:

09:12am | 14/12/11

Peter:  You’re damn right this country was founded on Christian values - rum, sodomy and the lash.

Prosperity says:

09:12am | 14/12/11

Peter:  You’re damn right this country was founded on Christian values - rum, sodomy and the lash.

Matt says:

10:10am | 14/12/11

First of all “Turkish” is not the same as Islamic.

Second, sounds like you are one of the sane people who believe secular schools should be secular and Christian schools should be Christian (and islamic schools should be islamic, etc etc).

“That is the beauty of being Australian, WE have a choice.” - This is exactly right and I whole heartedly agree.

milo of Brizvegas says:

10:20am | 14/12/11

Bev says: 08:56am
As I see it Bev
Happy Clappers can sing hymns, talk in tongues or believe Adam and Eve must have kept pet dinosaurs, most of us really do not care. However whether it is denying basic science, giving out Bibles,  demanding Religion be compulsory in schools, or singing Religious hymns. So many Christians feel it is there moral duty,  like the missionaries of old, to force their flat earth views onto the rest of us.

Robert Smissen Of rural SA says:

10:48am | 14/12/11

Peter you are mistaken, it was founded to dump the worst criminals (rapists, thieves, prostitutes, political terrorists & other dregs of society) of Britain so far away that they couldn’t harm the mother country. Christianity had NOTHING to do with the founding of OZ.

Jack says:

01:32pm | 14/12/11

I disagree with your stance on both religious holidays and Random Capitalisation.

Craig says:

06:31am | 14/12/11

Hank Jongen is NOT the head of Centrelink. Get your facts straight Roddy.

KH says:

06:41am | 14/12/11

What’s wrong with that?  As it happens, a number of religous holidays happen around the same time - unless you are planning to send out different cards for all of them, why not just cover them all with ‘festive season’?!  Particularly when there is a wide audience that could comprise of many different beliefs.

Nathan Explosion says:

07:41am | 14/12/11

Well, considering the amount of Australians on a payment who aren’t white and Christian, isn’t that a good thing?

In countries like the US, ‘Happy Holidays’ is a good, inclusive term, considering how many people celebrate Hanukah and Kwanzaa there.

I’m thinking mainly of people on the Age Pension, and I’m sure there are quite a few Jewish people, and South Vietnamese on AP.

VVS says:

07:22am | 14/12/11

And councilman Les Wynan ought to do more thinkin’ and less whinin’...

yobogod says:

06:44am | 14/12/11

If as you say,
“Christmas can have very little to do with religion. It is much more recognised as a cultural holiday than a religious one. Sure, people know the back story, but they certainly don’t come together at Christmas to celebrate Jesus. It is family time more than anything else.”

, then you might understand that it has no place in our multicultural schooling system, where we are endeavouring to teach our kids that “we are all equal”, not “Whites are more equal then everyone else”.

That would be giving credence to this idea that White australia is somehow under attack however.  When I look to our governing system, our councils, our school boards, and in fact most of the leadership roles in this country, and also the television adverts, newspaper adverts, Australian Soapies… ETC .... I see predominately “Whities”, ipso facto: your ‘attack on white cultural tradition’ is being perpetrated by other ‘whities’.

Nathan Explosion says:

07:43am | 14/12/11

“When will Australia be diverse enough? When there is no White culture left to celebrate?”

AHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA. Turn on the TV. Look at a magazine.

Nope, no whities there.

Oh, wait…

MarkS says:

08:03am | 14/12/11

@yobogod
A civil war is a war nevertheless, it does appear that in our society only anglo customs are open to attack.

wakeuppls says:

08:05am | 14/12/11

Self hating Whites with an agenda. If you look at history you will see it is the White race that has traditionally stood up for themselves against oppression with force. It is much easier to quell that prospect by destroying what gives White people that bravery and drive to be free.

In regards to the multi-culti schooling, no, we should not be teaching kids we are all equal. For one, that is socialist propaganda that holds no weight in reality, and secondly, this is Australia, not Iraq or India or Asia. Feel free to practice whatever culture you want in your own country. Here we prefer our own if that’s not too much to ask.

wakeuppls says:

08:12am | 14/12/11

“Turn on the TV. Look at a magazine.”

I don’t know what is sadder, the fact that you think magazine and tv are representative of White culture as a whole, just because there are White people on them, or that you think that purely the number of White people is indicative of the health of White culture. Both are irrelevant and stupid arguments.

gobsmack says:

08:36am | 14/12/11

This shows Christmas is more about consumerism than religion or culture:

http://www.dubai.com/blog/christmas-in-dubai-2/

James1 says:

09:32am | 14/12/11

Seriously, you must really hate your own culture.  If the mere existence of people who do things differently in your own country is destroying your ability to practice your culture in your own home, then you didn’t think much of it to begin with.  Some cultural Australians are so weak - my ancestors suffered 700 years of a concerted attempt to destroy their culture and traditions by outsiders.  We came out the other end stronger than ever.  You think a couple of people not celebrating Christmas will bring the whole edifice crumbling down.  What a house of cards you must live in.

Nathan Explosion says:

10:35am | 14/12/11

Why do you keep capitalising “white”? It’s not a proper noun.

HappyCynic says:

10:52am | 14/12/11

@James1

I thing you’ve answered your own question, christians want to be persecuted, they want that strength of faith and belief that the minorities they’ve persecuted for so long have obtained.  So they either pretend to be persecuted by muslims or atheists or “cultural Marxists” or “anti-white crusaders” or “leftists” or some other nebulous and imaginary “group”.  One lone and loony nut (like one crazy school in Western Sydney) changes a few lyrics of a song and it’s a coordinated conspiracy and a “War on Xmas”  or some such sh!t because they want to unite christians against a common enemy and so become stronger and more influential.

In the end this War on Xmas crap is little more than a power struggle, new-age christians trying to retrive the alpha dog status from the Middle Ages when the Catholics reigned supreme and whinging lots because like any good 4 year old knows if you whinge long enough and repeatedly enough you’ll eventually get what you want.

Shama says:

11:13am | 14/12/11

@HappyCynic. A most enlightening post. That also explains the ranters against “bad women who now have all the power” on this site.

neo says:

11:39am | 14/12/11

Dubai, being a deeply Islamic nation celebrates Christmas, it seems. Atheists are party poopers then.

James1 says:

11:57am | 14/12/11

Well said HC. 

Neo - you have hit on the problem.  Those atheists wanting to do away with Christmas are just party poopers.  I may be an insensitive, sometimes offensive neckbearded atheist, but I am certainly no party pooper, and will be celebrating Christmas with my family.

That said, my wife is pretty religious, so it is both a secular and religious celebration in my household.

Yip says:

12:14pm | 14/12/11

Christians are the party poopers. I just want to practice my saturnalia in peace, without any ear-melting Christmas carols. Lo, saturnalia!

neo says:

03:05pm | 14/12/11

Yip, if you want to worship Cronos, you are more than welcome. Unfortunately for you, there are a lot more people in Australia who want to hear carols than there are those who want to worship Cronos, so you might want to stay away from shopping centers and find a nice field somewhere to pray to your God. Just remember, he is unlikely to answer your prayers, as he is imprisoned in Tartarus.

yobogod says:

06:09pm | 14/12/11

“MarkS says: 09:03am | 14/12/11
@yobogod
A civil war is a war nevertheless, it does appear that in our society only anglo customs are open to attack.”

Did you cry foul when John Howard made it illegal for Aboriginals to watch porn?

wakeuppls says:

06:22am | 14/12/11

They obviously taught you to hate White culture in school, which is no surprise. These days the public school system is packed to the brim with communists and feminists.

As I explained before, it is not just an attack on Christianity, it is more importantly and much more significantly an attack on White culture.

p.s You don’t have to go to church to identify yourself as Christian.

yobogod says:

07:33am | 14/12/11

No, in school they didn’t teach me to hate “whities”.  For most of my life (growing up in Darwin), i didn’t even realise that my mother was chinese, that is what being a multicultural society is about- Mum didn’t act chinese as she was raised by her parents to speak english (they lived thru the White Australia years-even though my grandmother was third generation chinese born in Australia )
When I started to take notice of TV (during high school years), the first thing i did notice however, was that unlike my mixture of friends, greek, slavic, chinese, vietnamese, “aboriginal”, french, indonesian, russian, english, american, indian, etc ...when i did take notice of Australian TV shows, all i ever saw were Anglo archetypes.
Sure this has changed ALOT in the last 20 years, but it is still something that is perpetrated a great deal.
My family heritage is Anglican (Dad) and catholic/bhuddist(Mum). I identify with both parents, but I am not so stupid to believe that makes me either.  Lip service has never worked with divinity, I don’t see why it would suddenly change now.

As i say above, not realising my chinese cultural heritage was a blessing, as i don’t identify solely with either of my heritages, giving me an understanding of both.

To say this is an attack on white culture, is something that only a whitey would think plausible.  You have in one fell swoop, proven your cultural heritage of belittling everyone else, my chinese grandfather was born a Catholic in China, his mother was the daughter of a Welsh Missionary.  He served in the ADF during WW2, as he had been driven from Manchuria by the invading Japanese.

Draw yourself away from that spiral of self pity “White Boy”, and take a fresh dose of reality. No one “out there” is out to get you, these are acts of “people” and not the nameless faceless hordes of “coloured” people.

Christmas is a religious tradition, that has no place within a secular school.  Practice it as it should be, I implore you, lest you lose your cultural identity.  Do not think that forcing your cultural traditions upon others, will strengthen them, it just creates friction.  Have a little pride in your people, that is all it takes to keep these traditions going, because that is what your children will associate with the traditions.

Or, you can keep on this paranoid path… up to you mate

Rose says:

07:46am | 14/12/11

My kids have always attended Catholic schools and those schools have had student populations of kids from many cultural and religious backgrounds. While obviously the Catholic tradition is the predominant one, the schools have always acknowledged and marked the celebrations of the non-Christian students. Maybe public schools should give this a shot, acknowledging the beliefs of others, explaining those beliefs and allowing the kids of all faiths to be free to express their own culture. It doesn’t have to be a big deal, give the kids a spot in the newsletter, a talk at assembly or in class, allow them to do a project on it that others will see. The only way to bet ignorance is with information, teach kids about these things and they are no longer a scary mystery, it becomes just another part of the make up of society.
As for this Principal, FOOL!! There are plenty of secular ways of marking Christmas, but acknowledging the story behind Christmas could have been done in a lot of ways that don’t necessarily mean endorsing it as fact, now the school has just managed to alienate most people.

PhilD says:

07:46am | 14/12/11

64% of Australians identify as Christian, this doesnt mean they go to church except for weddings,& funerals but they are still Christian.
When will people realise that we are NOT america. We do not have formal seperation of church and state as per US constitution. In fact in 1981 the High Court determined that there is in fact no constitutional separation of church and state in Australia, more a “principle of state neutrality” with regard to religion. Our constitution has clear references to God in it. Thus our entire nation has the notion of God and religion built in - from the ground up.
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/general/constitution/preamble.htm - “humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God”.

Al says:

08:32am | 14/12/11

PhilD - Actualy the constitution has NO MENTION of God in it.
The only mention is in the pre-amble (shown in your link) that was added by the Soverign state (Britain) and is not actualy part of the constitution.

James1 says:

09:15am | 14/12/11

Just so you know, wakeuppls, most Christians are not what you would consider “white people”.  Indeed, even Jesus wasn’t.

wakeuppls says:

10:07am | 14/12/11

@James1 Indeed, Jesus was a Jew.

And in this country the majority of Christians are White. I don’t know of a Christian nation that is not, really. Maybe you could tell us where the evidence for this ridiculous claim came from?

James1 says:

10:36am | 14/12/11

“I don’t know of a Christian nation that is not, really.”

Hmm.  My evidence is what we fancy types call “demographics”.  I am not surprised this has escaped your attention, given your lack of knowledge about some of the world’s largest Christian nations.  Never heard of Uganda?  Brazil?  The Congos?  Venezuela?  Mexico?  Philippines?  South Africa?  Ethiopia?  Angola?  East Timor?  You have seriously never heard of these places?  Or did you just assume that because they are dominated by Christian, they must be white?

Perhaps you could let us in on where your ridiculous ideas about the skin colour of Christians comes from.  My guess is this: you have never bothered to look into anything outside Australia, so you just assume instead of constructing opinions using evidence.

wakeuppls says:

10:55am | 14/12/11

Hmm, maybe Germany, France, Italy, England, USA, Australia, Canada, Switzerland. Hell, lets just say nearly all of Europe as well. That is probably over a billion white people to your handful of relatively small colonies of Britain, essentially. If you honestly think Christianity is not a traditionally White then there isn’t a point in talking to you because you simply don’t live in the real world.

Cookie Monster says:

11:01am | 14/12/11

wakeuppls says:11:07am | 14/12/11 “@James1 Indeed, Jesus was a Jew. And in this country the majority of Christians are White. I don’t know of a Christian nation that is not, really. Maybe you could tell us where the evidence for this ridiculous claim came from?”

This gets my vote for most ignorant post of the week.

wakeuppls says:

11:12am | 14/12/11

The argument was most people are not what you would call White people. This is false. I dont know what is so hard to understand about reality, and just because I couldn’t name a few nations that had Christian populations that were not White doesn’t in any way constitute ignorance. It constitutes not requiring that knowledge at present because it is inconsequential.

But don’t get off your intellectual high horse there cookie monster. Real solid addition to the discussion.

James1 says:

11:38am | 14/12/11

That is a poor response, wakeuppls.  Firstly, most of the countries you list are smaller than those I list, and also have smaller proportions of Christians.  For instance, Brazil has more people (and Christians) than Germany and France combined.  Just one of the Congos is bigger than either Germany or France, and has a higher proportion of Christians to boot.  Secondly, many of the Christians in the largest one you list - the US - are either African American or Hispanic in origin.  Thirdly, only two that I list are former British colonies - don’t know much about the history of your culture, do you?

James1 says:

11:51am | 14/12/11

If not knowing about some of the biggest countries in the world isn’t ignorance, then I don’t know what is.

Think on this.  There are 2.2 billion Christians in the world.  Europe as a whole (including Russia) accounts for around 600 million of these (with a small proportion of these being non-white).  Australia and North America account for around 350 million (keeping in mind a large chunk of these - say 30% - are not white).  That leaves something over 1.2 billion Christians spread between Asia, Africa, South America, Central America, and the Middle East.

wakeuppls says:

12:18pm | 14/12/11

Enlighten us, James1. What is the demographic of Brazil? That’s right, half of them are White! LOL!!! Good point there.

And so your precious Congo has more people than France. It has less than Germany, to be factual.

In regards to the US, ~75% of the population is White, so I am not quite sure you bothered to point out the fact that there are minorities that are Christian also. The number of White Christians dwarfs the number of non-White Christians. Pretty simple reality. Why you continue to try and argue it is beyond me.

Even so, the argument isn’t even how many Whites are Christians. The argument is Christianity is traditionally a White religion. Arguing that is like arguing the sky is pink.

wakeuppls says:

12:40pm | 14/12/11

Whatever mate. If you want to fabricate numbers to find that 49% of Christians are White be my guest. That isn’t proving or disproving anything and was never the argument in the first place.

And half your countries were occupied by White settlers who converted the religion of the populace which you also conveniently ignore. You’re deliberately picking and choosing your definitions in the vain hope to prove what? That Christianity is not a White tradition? Pat yourself on the back when you succeed. I know how much atheists love getting involved in non-events.

James1 says:

01:04pm | 14/12/11

“Even so, the argument isn’t even how many Whites are Christians.”

It isn’t?  I thought you were arguing about this:

“Just so you know, wakeuppls, most Christians are not what you would consider “white people”.”

Perhaps you weren’t arguing about that.  After all, you do seem to have quite a knack for not knowing and understanding things.

On Brazil, I thought we were basing the definition of whiteness on skin colour and our own definitions, given that the white countries you listed were all northern European, as I am and I assume you are (because you capitalise the word “white”).  Most of those in Brazil who use the Brazilian classification of white are descended from Portuguese, who are themselves a Mediterranean race.

I agree on the US too - your figures accord with mine.  Around 75% of Americans identify as Christian.  Most of the other 25% are atheists/agnostics and other religions, and most atheists/agnostics are white.  25% of Americans do not identify as white.  Thus, we can say that around 30% of the 75% of Americans identifying as Christian are not white.  At least we agree on that.

James1 says:

01:14pm | 14/12/11

“That Christianity is not a White tradition?”

Again, your comprehension is poor. I did not say that.  Christianity has been a tradition for many whites for a long time - since Constantine, if one classifies the Roman Empire as white by that time (I don’t - indeed, it was a Mediterranean civilisation from its beginnings, and white is synonymous with northern European to me).  I was arguing that now it is not only a white thing, nor is it mostly a white thing.  Backtrack all you like, loosen definitions as much as suits your purposes, the facts are against you on this.  The world is not as simple as you seem to think it is.

James1 says:

01:28pm | 14/12/11

I didn’t fabricate any numbers either.  I used official statistics (census data where possible, government figures where no census data exists) to calculate percentages which were somewhat above official figures and estimates, so as to err on the side of caution.

On why I am arguing with you, I think this sums it up:

http://xkcd.com/386/

We will have to agree to disagree, I guess.  You think Christianity is a white thing for whatever reason - you haven’t really made those reasons clear.  I think it is a Middle Eastern religion that was adopted by races and cultures all over the world and adjusted to suit their particular geographic and cultural needs.

Cookie Monster says:

01:33pm | 14/12/11

Oh please wakeuppls - what people live in what country is general knowledge to most people and doesn’t take alot of thought processes to work through - so yes you are ignorant. I especially love the way you think a knowledge of the world is inconsequential.

“Even so, the argument isn’t even how many Whites are Christians. The argument is Christianity is traditionally a White religion. Arguing that is like arguing the sky is pink.”

Yeah - you need to go back to Sunday school. Just a few points I picked up on the Internet from some light reading. You should try it sometime - you need to actually open your eyes to read though.

1. Christianity is a middle eastern religion that spread outwards
2. Jesus wasn’t white
3. Jesus was accepted in Ethopia before Paul was converted
4. Apostle Mark (middle eastern) spread the Gospel in Africa, as his ministry founded the church in Egypt
5. Long before the start of Islam in the seventh century, Christianity was well established all over North Africa, Egypt, parts of the Sudan and Ethiopia
6. Christianity developed earlier and spread more rapidly in North Africa than in most of the Roman Empire
7. Christianity spread in Egypt so widely that that it remained predominately Christian into the tenth century
8. Nearly half the prominent church leaders of the first few centuries were North African

So no Christianity is not a “white” religion. Maybe you should go and join the Christian Identity - you sound like an ideal candidate.

Cookie Monster says:

01:58pm | 14/12/11

And also to mention wakeuppls the ancient pagan traditions pressed on Christianity from Egyptian doctrines (Isis into Mary and so forth), Persian traditions (Mithraism of whom we are about the have a happy festival), the Buddhist influence through Alexandria and other ancient philosophies that Christianity inherited including atonement from the Gnostic heretics.

I don’t see a traditionally “white” religion anywhere here -

wakeuppls says:

02:45pm | 14/12/11

“After all, you do seem to have quite a knack for not knowing and understanding things.”

Oh zing! That’s because I didn’t know the religious makeup of some countries 5 minutes ago, right? Man you must be so much smarter than me because you knew a few things about something that I didn’t.

“I especially love the way you think a knowledge of the world is inconsequential”

Don’t be a condescending twat. There are bucketloads of facts from around the world that you don’t know that I do and viceversa. Remember that intellectual high horse? Yeah, well it’s a long way down for someone as arrogant as you.

“So no Christianity is not a “white” religion.”

Never said it was. I said it was the traditional White religion. Who was saying again that it was I that lacked all the comprehension skills?

Cookie Monster says:

03:18pm | 14/12/11

wakeuppls “I said it was the traditional White religion. Who was saying again that it was I that lacked all the comprehension skills?”

And you have proved this how? James1 has proven that the world demographics of Christianity shows that its not traditionally “white”. I have shown you that the traditional teachings and history of Christianity are not traditionally “white”. You have yet to provide any factual information to prove your point. Your tactic of just stating it over and over again will not magically make it true.

I will keep being a condescending twat while you keep showing your ignorance.

Christianity is neither a “white” religion nor a traditionally “white” religion.

James1 says:

03:37pm | 14/12/11

No facts left to deploy or arguments left to make, I see.  Backtracking is all you have remaining.  Just to remind you, in your own words, you argued this:

“The argument is Christianity is traditionally a White religion.”

Now you say that your argument is this:

“I said it was the traditional White religion.”

If you cannot understand the way that meaning changes when you switch between a definite and an indefinite article, I give up.  If the basic building blocks of language elude you, I can not make you understand why you are wrong.

Finally, my issue isn’t with your lack of knowledge per se.  That is understandable - we can’t all know everything.  It is with the fact that, instead of acquiring that knowledge so as to inform yourself at the most basic level and deploy evidence in your arguments, you just make stuff up and throw around your baseless assumptions. 

In any case, merry Christmas!

mel says:

03:55pm | 14/12/11

Wakeuppls, you wrote at 11.55 am: “If you honestly think Christianity is not a traditionally White [sic] then there isn’t a point in talking to you because you simply don’t live in the real world”. When it was claimed that you said christianity was traditionally white, at 3.45pm you wrote: ”Never said it was.”

It’s hard not to be condescending to a twat like you, who can’t even keep their own story straight over 4-5 hours.

Anyway, James1 has shown that christianity is a non-white cultural tradition too. So when you bang on about feminists and communists attacking christianity as a way of attacking white culture, it just doesn’t make sense because it would be an attack on non-white cultures as well.

Hadn’t that thought crossed your mind before? Sorry, as well as being a racist twat, you’re just not very bright, are you? (Sorry, it’s just my latent high-horsed condescension coming through again.)

yobogod says:

05:39pm | 14/12/11

Lets stop with the crap shall we?
I know you lot like to harp on about your various points, and I’ve sat back and watched for long enough to realise that many of you like to push your deeply held Opinions as facts.
This is the internet, opinion does indeed = fact

White Culture in Australia is Not under attack.  I quite ironically identified as white for most of my youth, and it wasn’t until i left the relative safety of Darwin that i was treated to racism of any merit above my mates calling each other every name we could, in slag off contests to boot-Multiculturalism was that ingrained into us that we felt no threat by allowing each to have their own cultural identity, for both positive and negative. 

  Trying being (half)asian and walking into a pub in one of our smaller outback farming towns, talk about killing the conversation.  Though to be fair, I do look more like a half-caste Aboriginal ... and let me tell you ...I’m tired of inducing THAT guilt trip and its associated (not always) passive-aggressive response, in the Whities of australia

For myself i have no problem with Christmas being celebrated by Australian families, of all denominations, it is after all great fun for the kids.  I also have no problem with a school deciding not to celebrate Christmas as a school event, after all, Christmas as a modern tradition is nothing at all to do with what half of you are asserting.
  To only look at its religious background can be saved for the History class, where I would hope that the curriculum would point to its pagan origins, and the political usurpation of that ritual by the christian church.  The event itself need not be celebrated in all its modern consumerist glory.
  That is the crux of the matter, Christmas for the vast majority of Westernised peoples, be they christian, jew, bhuddist, muslim or hindu, in the modern western world christmas is nothing more then a consumer binge, with religious undertones to embolden everyones spending.

  Of that rather pleasing 64% of Australians who identify as Christian, how many say a christian prayer for their self sacrificing deity, as they tuck into that table laden with foods?  Of those that go to church how many, instead of sermons on charitable acts given to their offspring, instead give them Xboxes or push bikes, whilst avoiding the untidy homeless man camped outside the shopping centre?

I am not threatened by changes to My Australian Culture, because i understand its diversity, even whilst i bewail the inevitable shortcomings.  This i’ll leave to those who refuse to question their own motives and behavior, those who would play victim, crying “woe is me, we treated them coloureds goods, we did, how dare they raise their hand against us!”

Oh ho-ho-ho.  No, we didn’t raise our hand, we don’t really even care for what you have.  And what we do take from your culture, we make our own, noticeably offending “your good tastes”, but that’s to be expected.  You see, we don’t mind you, sometimes when your not waging war on us, we even feel quite attached to you.  You’re like a Staffordshire Terrier, you have two modes of thought: “fight it” or “fuck it”,the trick is to not appear competitive to you, and then we only have to put up with the “fuck it” mode of thought.

Merry Christmas to all, and a Happy new Year . . . peace and love from your Bhuddist Brothers.

oh and as an after thought: calling a whitey Skippy was never insulting enough to garner praise from the victim of said name calling (I am here once again talking of our youthful insult battles), no the best insult to level at a whitey, the one that really sticks it into their cultural identity, and allow me to re-iterate that I myself am half whitey. 

The best insult to call a Whitey .... is “Plain Flour”.

Sandra Blackmore says:

06:53am | 14/12/11

This has to be outlawed. Does this school receive taxpayers funding? Then it should be required to acknowledge the tradition of Christmas as the reason for our holidays. You don’t have to believe in the Christian story to respect the Christmas tradition of Australia.
I am so over bending backwards to acknowledge and respect and include our newer Australians cultural heritage, while anyone arriving here between 1788 and 1978 has to abandon theirs.

Al says:

07:36am | 14/12/11

Sandra Blackmore -But wouldn’t that also mean that you would be ‘bending over backwards to acknowledge and respect and include our newer Australians cultural heritage’ while anyone whose ancestors were here prior to 1788 has to abndon theirs (which has no mention of Christmas of course)?

subotic says:

08:24am | 14/12/11

78.25% of all percentage statistics are all made up on the spot.

Wynston Cruso says:

12:08pm | 14/12/11

That figure that subotic has supplied is accurate 50 per cent of the time, all the time.

James1 says:

12:36pm | 14/12/11

Agree 100% with subotic and Wynston.

GMB says:

01:30pm | 14/12/11

I’d like to add another percentage figure. ZERO. My care factor for this whole issue.

Little Joe says:

03:27pm | 14/12/11

@ subotic

Was that before or after the posting?? Don’t really care .... LMFAO

marley says:

07:14am | 14/12/11

I gather you’ve never been in a Muslim country during Ramadan or Eid, or in a HIndu one during Diwali or Dussehra.  Non-believers don’t have a choice about those either. 

If you don’t like Christmas, stay away from the malls and don’ watch commercial TV.  Amazingly, you will avoid just about everything you complain about.  It’s not that hard.

Steve M says:

07:50am | 14/12/11

its Christmas you genius. The religious are celebrating their beliefs. The rest of us are trying to have a pleasant year end, share a few gifts and cleansing ales with family and friends. If it all offends you so much, crawl back into your humpy and emerge in mid January.

Al says:

08:29am | 14/12/11

marley - yes but ‘a Muslim country during Ramadan or Eid, or in a HIndu one during Diwali or Dussehra’ are likely countries that don’t have laws in place making it illegal to force a particular religous belief onto those who don’t want it. Unlike Australia.

James1 says:

09:37am | 14/12/11

“are likely countries that don’t have laws in place making it illegal to force a particular religous belief onto those who don’t want it.”

We don’t have those laws either.  Every Sunday, hundreds of thousands of children in Australia are forced to go and worship the god of their parents.  Every school day, millions of children are forced to learn about and, to an extent, believe in, a god of their parents’ choosing.

Surely says:

09:43am | 14/12/11

Marley ,
Can you explain the relevance of your first paragraph? Its a point made often but I can only ever think “so what”.

proud of Chrismas says:

09:55am | 14/12/11

and who are you?  Australia is build on Christianity , you ignorant goose. nobody pushes anything on you. I think, you should deport Australia ASAP, you are just not the type we would like to be our neighbour or co-worker.  if you do not like Christmas spirit better go to the Muslim country, you want be rammed down your throat with our celebration of Christmas or Easter. good luck & goodbye !

HappyCynic says:

11:18am | 14/12/11

@proud of Chrismas

Are you going to deport me for celebrating Chanukah instead?  Where are you going to deport me to?  Some of my family has been in this country since it was first settled by white people, they were jewish then just like I am now.  One of the first white people to die in Australia was jewish, the first Australian born GG was also jewish, we’ve had a couple of jewish governor generals in fact, jewish federal court judges and many prominent businessmen and women in this country are jewish, most of Australia’s financial laws are based on jewish laws.  Hell, even one of your gods is jewish

So stop saying this country is built on christianity, it isn’t and never has been.

Quailie says:

11:19am | 14/12/11

Dear proud of ‘chrismas’. Your grammar is atrocious.

Al says:

11:32am | 14/12/11

James1 - OK, but if the children chose to have different beliefs and their parents are forcing them to attend particular religion and threaten or do treat them differently on the basis they don’t hold those beliefs, the child can take action under anti-discrimination laws if they wish.
The fact they don’t is NOT RELEVANT.

marley says:

12:22pm | 14/12/11

@Surely - if you read the comment I was responding to, you will see that Thatmosis was complaining about Christians as being exceptional in bombarding non-believers with “crap.”  I was pointing out that the practice is not limited to Christians, and in fact occurs in most countries which have a dominant religious tradition. 

Believers have a right to express their religious beliefs, even in ways that annoy people like thatmosis.  And thatmosis has a right to ignore them.  I don’t think he has a right to simply decree that there can be no public display of religious belief.

James1 says:

12:34pm | 14/12/11

Sure Al, but that is not what I was getting at.  When we indoctrinate children so young, it often has the effect of robbing them of the opportunity to form, let alone exercise, the intellectual capacity to make that choice for themselves.  And there is no law against that.

Take solace though - some of us believe in individual freedom to such an extent that we make a conscious decision to not indoctrinate our children into any belief system (or none).

holden says:

01:26pm | 14/12/11

@ Quailie. You think my grammar is atrocious? You should meet my grampa!

proud of Christmas says:

02:59pm | 14/12/11

to   HappyCynic says: your post says all: we…we…we…we…we….we…we…we…jewish, how self- centered .

12:18pm | 14/12/11

proud of Christmas says:

03:15pm | 14/12/11

Quailie says:

  12:19pm | 14/12/11

    Quailie says:

  12:19pm | 14/12/11

 
  Dear proud of ‘chrismas’. Your grammar is atrocious. -      Dear Quailie   -I never went to an English/ Australian school, so spare me your comments .I hope you are a spelling wizard   MERRY CHRISTMAS, Love

Quailie says:

03:18pm | 14/12/11

-Holden, that only depends on whether you are in fact Holden, or if you are dear, sweet ‘proud of Chrismas’ in disguise. Ah, ‘proud of Chrismas’. You surely do ring my bell.

Ando says:

03:20pm | 14/12/11

Marley,
I agree with your general point but I don’t see where Thatmosis suggests its “Exceptional ” to Australia . No one would think Muslim dictatorships are more inclusive so why do you need to reference them to make your point.

As far as your advice
“If you don’t like Christmas, stay away from the malls and don’t watch commercial TV.  Amazingly, you will avoid just about everything you complain about.  It’s not that hard. “
How does this sit with children not being given that choice in public schools.

HappyCynic says:

03:52pm | 14/12/11

@proud of Christmas

Really?  Self-centred?  I said “we” once and it was referring to all Australians not to any particular religious group.  My point (since you seem to struggle with literacy as well as grammar) was to show you just a handful of the non-christians who have made enormous contributions to this country and who would feel hurt to be left out of the history of this country they worked so hard to build.  Your comment about Australia being just a christian nation effectively left out every non-christian who has ever lived here and who helped to make this country great.  And that’s self-centred (the real definition).

proud of Christmas says:

05:33pm | 14/12/11

Quailie , you are very rude person. but you know what? what goes around, comes around.    MERRY CHRISTMAS , Love

marley says:

06:43pm | 14/12/11

@Ando - I took thatmosis as saying it was exceptional to Christians, not necessarily to Australians.

As for kids in public schools, if we’re asking them to believe in the Christmas story and to sing hymns of praise, maybe I could go along with that.  If we’re asking them to recognize that there is a festival called Christmas, that it’s about Christ, but that they don’t have to believe in it, and we ask them to sing about Rudolf and his red nose, or Snowy the Snowman, no, I don’t see the issue at all. 

Do we teach kids about aboriginal Dreaming?  Is there an intellectual difference?

proud of Christmas says:

06:56pm | 14/12/11

@HappyCynic     “Some of my family has been in this country since it was first settled by white people, they were jewish then just like I am now.  One of the first white people to die in Australia was jewish, the first Australian born GG was also jewish, we’ve had a couple of jewish governor generals in fact, jewish federal court judges and many prominent businessmen and women in this country are jewish, most of Australia’s financial laws are based on jewish laws. ” -read your post, everything is about “jewish”.

Matt says:

10:23am | 14/12/11

All hail Emily, voice of reason!

Steve M says:

07:54am | 14/12/11

oh ffs, why dont you take a poll of the number of people offended by christmas. Sure, most people arent religious. But it is only vocal minority of intolerant, self centred people that have run with the whole anti xmas sentiment. You dont want to be involved? Super, then dont. But stop trying to rain on everyone elses parade. Period, no exception.

Roger says:

09:27am | 14/12/11

Christmas is no longer a religious event. It was originally a co-option of pagan rituals and has now become co-opted by secular culture.

How many Australian’s do you see offering to work on Christmas day? You probably won’t find a huge amount in mass either but you will find the majority giving presents and eating with their families.

Shannon says:

11:18am | 14/12/11

You know Chriatians stole this holiday from the Pagans right?

It’s a made up day…

neo says:

11:44am | 14/12/11

I don’t know what pagan event the day coincides with, but Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ. It is celebrated on different dates in different countries, but the event is still the same and has nothing to do with any pagan holidays that the Gregorian calendar Christmas may fall on.

LaDiva says:

06:17pm | 14/12/11

Then sit down, turn on the telly,
Fa-la-la-la-la, fa-la-la-la!

I forget who I am says:

08:35am | 14/12/11

Speak to Joolya, she can fix it all

Arthur says:

09:15am | 14/12/11

My young bloke came home from school and told me Tony Abbott is bad. Apparently all the teachers tell the kids that.

Schools are full of left wing out of touch teachers. I know, I was a teacher a decade ago.

This is why kids come out of school with zero discipline. This is why GenY think they can do and have anything they want. This is why we now have Christmas carol issues every year….MUCH more to come…It’s only just started.

Loddlaen says:

10:40am | 14/12/11

I call massive BS Arthur.

Arthur says:

11:53am | 14/12/11

@Loddlaen.

Absolute fact…You call BS because it sounds like BS, tragically it’s not. Our schools, the media and other deluded people are stacked with left wing socialist ideology that will always lead to disaster. We could only wish it’s BS.

neo says:

01:10pm | 14/12/11

Jesus was left wing. Just saying.

Arthur says:

01:45pm | 14/12/11

“Jesus was left wing. Just saying. “

Was he? Didn’t teach people to fish as opposed to giving them fish?

Our government gives everyone fish, a means to cook it, a house to cook it in, subsidies to go and collect your God given fish….

Jesus was good, our government’s ridiculous.

neo says:

02:39pm | 14/12/11

He was an advocate of egalitarianism and a firm believer in helping those who have less than you.

Cookie Monster says:

04:05pm | 14/12/11

neo says:02:10pm | 14/12/11 “Jesus was left wing. Just saying.”

He wasn’t Christian either ...

Arthur says:

04:17pm | 14/12/11

@Neo….

If there were a finite number of people to share with it would make sense to do exactly that. What socialists unbelievably don’t understand is there are too many people in the world. Help them and that creates more people. Ever increasing problem.

A good mate of mine that goes to missions overseas wouldn’t believe me when I told him there are 80 million extra people on the planet every year. He now thinks for aid to occur there should be condition of zero population growth. Ignorance is slowly killing us all.

neo says:

05:18pm | 14/12/11

Yeh, but does that mean that we may as well just give up trying? Is it well to think that for us to live in excess it’s worth for many others to live in severe need? It would be easier to just not think about it.

Arthur says:

06:33pm | 14/12/11

“It would be easier to just not think about it. “...

True Neo, but I don’t think you or I are that kind of people….

I read a placard the other day saying 1% of the world own 90% of the wealth….Yeah, but simple maths says distributing the wealth to a humungous 7 billion people would give each of us a tiny bit more than the poorest have now…..There needs to be fewer people to fix anything on this planet, and I emphasize ANYTHING.

Clay says:

07:07pm | 14/12/11

Jesus was not left wing at all and it’s rather ironic that the left often use this lie to take a stance of moral superiority considering their stance on religion. On the contrary, he emphasized personal responsibility to be charitable to the deserving poor (Emphasis on DESERVING, very few people in our affluent society deserve charity that cannot be gained by hard work).

‘Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?’ This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. Then said Jesus :’Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always’. 

You don’t have to be a Christian to realize the truth of this particular quote, just a person of modest wisdom. The poor and needy will always be with us, no amount of good will or social engineering will change the inherent nature of the world.

Deano says:

11:41am | 14/12/11

When you take out the emotion of your argument and look at it rationally, a Pagan Rome was turning into a Christian Rome and the Church at the time did not want to celebrate the pagan Holiday of Winter Solstice so in its place they decided to celebrate the Birth of Christ. As Christianity spread throughout Rome the tradition of Christmas was eventually going to become a tradition, it’s basically evolution at work and is a natural progression. It’s easyto see why past traditions have still carried on to this day. So you are wrong, Christmas was not originally a Pagan holiday, Winter Solstice was Pagan, Christmas became a NEW holiday in place of the Pagan Holiday.

Josh E says:

12:08pm | 14/12/11

The Gregorian calendar made only the barest modification to the Julian calendar that preceded it (which was inaccurate by approximately 11 minutes per year). The names of the months, and the number of days in each month, stayed very much the same. Ergo, there is really nothing particularly Christian about the modern calendar; if anything, it’s true origin is Roman. Just thought you ought to know.

Dick J says:

03:39pm | 14/12/11

Yep I knew that Josh E but you we do follow the Gregorian which corrected the Pagan calendar of Rome. We kept the Roman day names.

Pope Gregory wanted to make sure the dates for Easter were correct as those pesky 11 minutes were creating havoc with his religious festival and party plans as something was wrong between the cycle of the moon and the dates for Easter and Christmas.

Our calender was perfected by the Church so we could all go to church and celebrate at the right time the birth and death of a Jewish fellow called Jesus.

Apparently he was born and died in a outlying Roman provence . Some people said he was a good bloke.Others didn’t seem to like him that much.

Oh and he also decided that we measure all dates from the the birth of the Jesus bloke .

The Pope reasoned you gotta get your dates right when you want an annual festival so everybody turns up for the party.

Julie says:

08:50am | 14/12/11

Whats scary is how people like you use double speak and denial to reach you intolerant lefty lofty goals.  You Sir, are the bully on the playground!

Cynicised says:

09:10am | 14/12/11

What’s truly scary to me is that I actually find myself agreeing with you, Eric! Hehe..

Al says:

08:54am | 14/12/11

Because if they are celebrating in private that is THEIR RIGHT to follow their religous beliefs, while pushing a specific set of religous beliefs in a school is discrimination against those who don’t share those beliefs.
The children and their families are free to celebrate christmas, just not as part of school activities.
Its called following the law.

Matt says:

10:39am | 14/12/11

The middle east example you give is a bit different to Australia. Islam is a state sponsored and enforced religion over there. Christianity is NOT state sponsored and enforced here.

wearestardust says:

12:01pm | 14/12/11

How embarrassment.  I quoted the same Tele article as Ms Spicer.  It seems that neither of us properly read, in the first instance, the article which purports to inflame her commentary.

Peter says:

10:22am | 14/12/11

Also, don’t say anything bad about Apple products.  Their supporters are mad lunatics who will gleefully burn you at the stake.

Jamin says:

03:16pm | 14/12/11

People celebrated the birth of christ before the knew about christ or believed in him. How interesting.

iansand says:

03:24pm | 14/12/11

Jamin - Followers of Mithras and Zoroaster had similar traditions.  Not o mention the Roman Saturnalia festival.

Jamin says:

07:06pm | 14/12/11

They sure did, but it wasn’t christmas.  While certain aspects of the preceeding festivals were stolen to create the current christian celebrations the europeans were not celebrating christmas, the christ part is fairly important.  Kika was being dishonest in her post.

prosperity says:

09:23am | 14/12/11

Sheldon: “Christians around the world are being burnt, killed and having their churches burnt down”. Really?  While God fearing Christians have killed millions of people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and bombed both countries back to the stone age.  President Bush heard the word of God when he was contemplating war on Iraq, and God said “go for it”.

Eric The red says:

10:41am | 14/12/11

@ prosperity, While God fearing Christians have killed millions of people in Iraq and Afghanistan,  Where did you get those figures from? Your Xmas cracker. Dumb!

Matt says:

10:46am | 14/12/11

What on earth are you rambling about? You seem to of made a lot of (incorrect) assumptions about atheists.

Tim the Toolman says:

10:52am | 14/12/11

“It is mainly Atheists who are behind the attack on Christmas traditions each year, that is fact.”

Oh, how droll.  Not only are you ridiculously wrong, but you’re apparently offended that the holiday your religion re-badged in the past is at risk of being rebadged again.

“This will help the Atheist remember about the universe that created them for no reason and it’s intent on destroying them at any chance it can get.”

As opposed to a god who apparently deems it necessary to starve, kill and maim millions each year.  i’ll take an indifferent and dangerous universe over an actively malicious deity any day, thanks.

Oh, and when you work out which god is actually real, let us know.  I’m partial to Thor myself…or maybe Hanuman.

Dan Webster says:

02:15pm | 14/12/11

@ Tim The Toolman - There is only one God and that is God.

@ Matt - I’m just showing Atheists the truth about themselves.(maybe the truth is too hard for them)

> Atheists don’t like to think about what their faith REALLY means, they just want to get rid of that annoying thing called Christianity <

James1 says:

03:41pm | 14/12/11

No, you’re projecting your world view onto atheists, Dan.  We think differently to you, we find pleasure in different things, we find hope in places where you see none.  I don’t see any need to get rid of Christianity - I just don’t believe it myself, is all.

Doesn’t make us bad people.  Just means we are different to you - and that is the thing you struggle with.  Always remember what the son of your god said - whatsoever you do unto the least of my brothers, you also do unto me.  So according to your belief system, when you pour scorn on us for thinking differently, you are pouring scorn on the son of your god.

Merry Christmas.

Dan Webster says:

12:51pm | 15/12/11

No James, I am protecting the teachings of Jesus. You don’t care for him or his teachings, so why quote them. You would be happy for him not to exist, so why quote him ?

Maybe tell me about the inspiring teachings of Atheism…...is there any ?
All I hear is the attack of Atheists on Religion, especially the Christian one.

I’m not making Atheists out to be bad, I’m just saying that they are sad for what they don’t see.

Atheists really do stand for nothing. but will never admit it.

Merry Christmas.

Al says:

09:52am | 14/12/11

The right to the day off (paid for FT/PT) comes from the Fair Work Act and decleration of Public Holidays by the states. It has no bearing on what the day is actualy for.
Providing it as a paid day of to people of a specific religion only is illegal under anti-discrimination laws.
As for Christmas carols, I have no problem if you want to sing them in your own home or at an event for that purpose (like Carols in the domain) as I can then choose whether or not to attend and be exposed to them.
Being exposed to them constantly with no chance to avoid them (I still need to shop for food, medicine etc) is along the lines of people coming to your door and holding a sermon when you have told them to go away as they are preaching a religion you don’t believe in and have your own beliefs.
Realy funny thing though, yes Christians have a right to celebrate and no one is saying we should take that away. However when were you last forced to celebrate a non-christian religous holiday? Oh thats right, NEVER.

Matt says:

10:50am | 14/12/11

jg - see Al’s comment in reply to Vic above. Vic basically said the same thing you just said. Al replies explaining it.

Bottom line, I don’t have a choice to work on xmas day or not… it’s a public holiday.

John Smythe says:

10:19am | 14/12/11

Interesting comment thatmosis. Has perhaps made me think that we should ban the open parading of “Christmas”. For me, it has simply been a very commercial, and more importantly family centered occasion. Nothing religious behind it at all. I ignore the “nativity scenes” and “carols” as simply something that comes with the “theme” of Christmas.

This whole argument is one based out of political correctness I think. Even moreso in line with your point that religion should be personal. From that perspective, yes, I agree it’s time to stop it.

marley says:

12:41pm | 14/12/11

@thatmosis - actually, you know, India is the most religiously diverse country on the planet.  So don’t go saying that people dont have the rights there that we expect. 

Here, we have the right to freedom of religion.  It says so in the Constitution. So, you’re free to be a Christian or a Muslim or an atheist or a druid or a Jedi.  No one cares.

But that’s not the same thing as saying we have a right to freedom from religion.  Believers have rights too, including the right to express their faith.  And who are you to say that that right must be limited to the believer’s home or place of worship?  What happened to freedom of speech and freedom of expression? 

No, believers can’t impose their faith on you.  But if you think a Christmas tree or a carol or a Santa Claus is imposing faith, rather than merely expressing it, I can only say you have an odd idea of imposition. 

The point is, your right not to be hassled at Christmas doesn’t exceed the right of believers to celebrate the occasion.  Learn to live with it.

Col Sanders says:

10:51am | 14/12/11

Cat says:  something wrong with the Judeo-Christian tradition)  Jews aren’t Christians as Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies but personally although I do not sing Christmas carols I am concerned that the God Particle (Higgs Boson) may turn up in Switzerland. I have long been a non-believer and followed the Higgless (SM) model of particle physics.

Kika says:

02:19pm | 14/12/11

Col - Yes but the core tenets and ethics of Christianity stem from Judaism. I.e. the 10 commandments. That’s why it’s called Judeo-Christian as our culture is based loosely around those commandments, kind of.

Too Hot says:

11:17am | 14/12/11

Even if there isn’t a hell at the moment, I think one will be specially created for this clown.

wearestardust says:

11:54am | 14/12/11

Non-religious celebrations (eg the feasts and parties) were banned by Cromwell during the republic so as to get the focus back on religion.  Hmmm.

I’ve come across Christians who don’t celebrate Christmas (or Easter) on the basis that it’s not biblical.

subotic says:

12:30pm | 14/12/11

Like I’ve already said in this post…

78.25% of all percentage statistics are all made up on the spot.

P. Darvio says:

12:49pm | 14/12/11

Quote: 78.25% of all percentage statistics are all made up on the spot.

I’m glad i’m in the other 21.75% that are not made up.

Happy Holidays.

John Smythe says:

01:24pm | 14/12/11

And to emphasise that, it is a private school in Australia suffering under the typical PC Brigade “got to keep everyone happy” mentality.

The Tokyo one, containing a lot of diversity in its attending students backgrounds, hasn’t changed a thing.

Celebrate the event for the festive season it is. If Christians feel so uppity about it, or non-Christians, whichever way you swing, fuck it, and call it St Nich day then! Christ wasn’t even born on that day!

jade (the other one) says:

02:09pm | 14/12/11

@John Smythe. Funnily enough, when private religious schools of one particular religion do something outrageous, people leap to their defence, claiming that as private institutions they have a right to do so.

Yet this school is also a private school, and I see many people suggesting that they should not run themselves as they see fit. Really shows the hypocrisy of Australians.

Ricky_B says:

02:37pm | 14/12/11

Jade, a person doesnt have to attend church regularly to be a christian. If you believe in the christian god, regardless of if you attend church, then you are a christian.I would say a high proportion of Australia falls into this boat.  Australia was founded on christian values & celebrates many christian traditions.Why should that change?

John Smythe says:

02:40pm | 14/12/11

I feel lucky I know people whose children go to the one here in Tokyo. I’ve also heard the approach this school uses and it sounds very good. They are also all over the world.

Had I have not known any of that, I probably would have fallen for the superficial argument they were wowsers…totally agree with you there jade (too), Australians are very hypocritical….and just like to complain about something without offering a solution to said problem. (T.T)

jade (the other one) says:

03:14pm | 14/12/11

See Section 116 of the Australian Constitution, Ricky_B. Furthermore, my point is that if parents are not motivated enough by their religion to attend a service for one hour on the weekends, then how can they pretend to be concerned that schools are violating their religion? Schools are not the place for religious worship. That is what CHURCH is for.

There is nothing wrong with teaching children about our Christian tradition. I see no issue with teaching children that our Christian tradition led us to the Stolen Generation, young teenage and single mothers having their children forcibly removed and adopted, the genocide and massacre and enslavement of the indigenous people of this country and other countries, justification for the White Australia Policy, sexual and physical abuse of wards of the state in government institutions.

I suspect that you might have a problem with linking all these abuses to the “proud” Christian tradition of this country, even though it is that Christian tradition that was used to justify them.

I have an issue with state-run schools holding celebrations that some children cannot participate in, due to the religious nature of the celebration. Children of Jews, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, some denominations of Christianity, Hindus, and atheists often cannot participate in Christmas celebrations as a result of their religious doctrine. In a secular country, this should not be allowed to happen, particularly if simply changing the name of the celebration to “End of Year Celebrations”, or “Break up Celebrations” and being more circumspect about the songs and activities provided can alleviate this.

I have absolutely no problem with children being taught about the fact that SOME Australians celebrate the birth of Jesus at this time of year, provided that they are not forced to make a choice between being excluded from celebrations, or compromising their beliefs.

Too Hot says:

11:00am | 14/12/11

Australia’s a diverse and tolerant country. You can have your secular values, the rest of us can have our Christian values. Christians will never see their religion confined to just the home and church. Sorry, hon

Anonymous says:

11:17am | 14/12/11

Christians are amongst the most intolerant people I’ve ever met.

Al says:

11:25am | 14/12/11

Too Hot - Nothing wrong with you conforming to your ‘Christian values’.
However, trying to force those particular values onto others who don’t share your christian beliefs is what is the issue, not you abiding by them.

Too Hot says:

11:47am | 14/12/11

Christians tolerate a lot of things. We are actually forced to pay, through tax,  for abortions and gay pride events after all, and we help raise children of same sex parents as well. But I think you’d agree we shouldn’t have to tolerate those that would like to destroy the Church, the religion isn’t a suicide pact, lol!

Methuselah says:

12:11pm | 14/12/11

Isn’t it all a bit hard pretending to be a good Christian. Can’t you be the most horrible self centred person so long as you repent just before you die. Employ a tame Priest (like the Mafia mobsters) who can rush to your side to read you your last rites, even claim the cost as fire insurance.

P. Darvio says:

12:27pm | 14/12/11

Quote: “Christians tolerate a lot of things. We are actually forced to pay, through tax,  for abortions……”

BUT your Bible actually approves abortions and goes into great detail about where (in a Church), who carries out the Abortion (A Christian Priest) and how the Abortion is performed (dirty water).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5:11-31&version=NIV

Not another so-called Christian who doesn’t read the Bible – back to Sunday School for you for some Christian Re-education on Christian Abortion approved by your Abortion loving GOD.

void says:

12:28pm | 14/12/11

Anon: you haven’t met many people, then, have you?

Al says:

12:30pm | 14/12/11

Too Hot - Sorry, seeking for people who don’t share christian beliefs to not be forced to be exposed to those beliefs is somehow seeking ‘to destroy the Church’?
I don’t follow your reasoning.
Besides, I think the church is itself doing the best job of destroying the Church, they don’t need outside help.

jade (the other one) says:

12:36pm | 14/12/11

@Too Hot; you are not tolerant when you talk about being “forced” to pay for abortion and gay pride parades.

I certainly don’t talk about being “forced” to fund Christian chaplains in schools, or NFP’s specifically dedicated to anti-choice measures. I see it as part of my moral duty to society to give taxes to people I don’t agree with so that their voice can be heard in equal measure to mine, and so that they can have the same opportunities to embrace the lifestyle that they choose as I do.

Provide examples of those who are aiming to “destroy the church”. Not people who wish to curtail the absurd influence of the church on those who do not believe, but who actually wish to eradicate you.

Anonymous says:

12:44pm | 14/12/11

Ok Too Hot, if you wanna play that game, remember World Youth Day?

Considering practicing (ie. church-going) Christians are a minority in this country, non-believers were forced to pay via tax 150 MILLION DOLLARS for the Pope to visit, a man who is guilty of covering up child rape and spreading lies about contraception in developing nations where AIDS is rampant.

Although I will admit, I DON’T tolerate that sort of thing.

Too Hot says:

12:45pm | 14/12/11

I don’t mean people of good will, like you. It’s the extremist atheists I was postulating.

jade (the other one) says:

01:18pm | 14/12/11

@Too Hot - give examples of extremist atheists who wish to destroy your church? Who wish to force you to stop worshipping? Actual quotes would be appreciated.

Too Hot says:

02:01pm | 14/12/11

Jade, wouldn’t it be a better place if we didn’t have to fund each others activities. This could be done by introducing a massive tax cut for all us.  Everybody wins.

de·stroy (d-stroi)
v. de·stroyed, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys
v.tr.
1. To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.
2. To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin.
3. To do away with; put an end to: “In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness” (George Bernard Shaw).
4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution’s chief witness.
v.intr.
To be destructive; cause destruction: “Too much money destroys as surely as too little” (John Simon).

Clearly, a lot of atheists would like to do atleast one of these things to religion. Some of these guys think that religion causes every bad thing in the World, so if they didn’t want it rendered useless they would be a hypocrite. So that’s where I was coming from. Good chat.

jade (the other one) says:

02:14pm | 14/12/11

Give me quotes from atheists who wish to destroy religion. I’ve read the most polemic and vitriolic atheists (Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens are the most well-known), and even in their vitriol I have never heard them suggest that a single Christian church be torn down, or that a single Christian artifact be destroyed, that a single Bible or other holy book be burned, that a single Christian be persecuted for praying, attending church, or reading the Bible.

Quite the opposite in fact.

So again, I will ask you to show me one quote from one prominent atheist who wants to destroy Christianity.

I’ve also never seen that they believe that religion is the cause for all the world’s evils. Quote someone who actually said that.

Because otherwise, you need to get out from the brainwashing of your church and realise that the only thing atheists actually want is to be left alone by you and your ilk.

Too Hot says:

03:14pm | 14/12/11

Jade, your problem is with the definition of destroy.

jade (the other one) says:

03:38pm | 14/12/11

Funny Too Hot, I’m using the same definition you provided.

Perhaps then, you actually can’t provide examples, but don’t wish to admit that you might be wrong in your misguided assumptions about what atheists believe and what atheists want?

1. To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.

Nope, no atheists I know of want to ruin Christianity or spoil it.

2. To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin.

Again, noone wants to tear down or break up Christianity or any other religion.

3. To do away with; put an end to.

Nope, no atheists want to do away with or put an end to Christianity.

4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.

I seriously doubt that any atheist wants to kill Christians.

5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush.

Nope, atheists don’t want to defeat Christianity or crush it. They have no problems with Christians going to church openly, praying. I imagine though that most Christians think that the atheist desire to separate church and government is an attempt to crush or defeat Christianity. Newsflash - it’s not.

6. To render useless or ineffective.

The only place atheists want religion to be useless or ineffective is on religion’s influence on their lives. They don’t particularly care how useful or effective it is for you; they don’t find it effective for them, and don’t see why something that has no meaning or relevance should have significant influence over their choices and their life in general.

Would you like it if I decided that weddings could no longer occur in a church, and forced everyone to get married at the registry office, in a completely secular ceremony that mentioned religion not once? I imagine not. However, Christians seek constantly to have dominion over marriage, and women’s bodily integrity, and over what our schools teach, and over how government should be conducted. Atheists simply want the Christian DOMINION over these things to be stopped, except where it rightly belongs, in your CHURCHES.

milo of Brizvegas says:

11:45am | 14/12/11

What about Nimrod? Thousands of years before there was a Santa Claus, there was another supernatural figure who would supposedly visits a evergreen tree and leave gifts every December 25th. His name was Nimrod. A northern hemisphere thing, something about a winter solstice and celebrating the coming of the light after a crappy winter without central heating

rudy says:

06:43pm | 14/12/11

Quite right. It’s a beat up. I expect better from Tracy.

Al says:

01:18pm | 14/12/11

I remember when Santa Clause was a thing kids (me) looked at as a creepy stalker who watched everything you did, broke into your house in the middle of the night and leaving presents (or punishment) to those he deemed nice or naughty.
I bet if I went around with a bag of gifts, breaking into houses and leaving them around I would be arrested. And as for spying on little kids, I would probably be accused of Pedophilia.
Santa is a very creepy concept.

Ricky_B says:

02:46pm | 14/12/11

What a barrel of joy you are Al.I feel sorry for your kids.

Al says:

07:15am | 15/12/11

Ricky_B - you feel sorry for my kids?
Do you know something I don’t?

Yip says:

01:15pm | 14/12/11

Hahaha! You sooooooo need to go back to school. I recommend year 4 English.

Yip says:

01:18pm | 14/12/11

You also could do with additional schooling. It’s nearly free at public schools.

Lostinperth says:

01:31pm | 14/12/11

Any indoctrination of children is an obscenely immoral act - including telling them “there is no God”. Or is atheiem not doctrinal.

I suspect that anything you agree with is fine and anything you don’t is “indocrtination”. I have nothing wrong with teaching the kids a variety of faith, but why bastardise Christianity to pander to a few athiests who value their values over everybody else’s.

Given that you agree that the majority of Australians identify with Christianity, I wonder who is doing the “thrusting of beliefs” that the majority dont agree iwth onto who?

James1 says:

01:53pm | 14/12/11

Lostinperth,

We are taking the principled approach with our child.  I am an atheist, but because I believe it is an awful thing to indoctrinate a child into a religion, I am careful when asked by my child about god(s) to always present several perspectives (usually the Jewish, Christian, and Greek persectives on gods), and not to indoctrinate her with my own beliefs.  We have read bible stories together, I have explained evolution to her, we have read into Greek and Roman religion together, and so on.  If I were to indoctrinate my child into my own beliefs, I would be no better than those Christians and others who threaten their children with eternity in hell for not believing.

Sad to say, I do not know any other atheists, Christians, or anyone else for that matter, who do the same.

Al says:

02:03pm | 14/12/11

Lostinperth - actualy both the positions of religion and athiests are both a matter of faith.
For religion - claim a god/s with no testable evidence.
For atheisim - claim no god/s with no testable evidence.
Both are as bad as each other. Without evidence one way or the other taking either position is illogical.
It should be easier for the religion to provide evidence though. For athiesim it is much more difficult as “Abscence of proof is NOT proof of abscence”.

James1 says:

02:16pm | 14/12/11

Al, in that sense, agnosticism is the only logical position.  To say that it is possible that a god or gods exist, but that you have no evidence for their existence, and no basis on which to choose a particular god to believe in, is the only one which really accords with logic and requires no faith.

Cookie Monster says:

02:45pm | 14/12/11

But James1 - to believe that some type of god exists, whatever the form, requires a form of faith doesn’t it. Doesn’t logic require evidence in which to form a base?

“To say that it is possible that a god or gods exist, but that you have no evidence for their existence, and no basis on which to choose a particular god to believe in, is the only one which really accords with logic and requires no faith.” - isn’t this the basic of religious belief - to believe in a god with no evidence that it exists

James1 says:

03:22pm | 14/12/11

Fair point Cookie, but I would separate the contention that it is possible that a god or gods exist from the contention that one or more god does or does not exist.  It is the recognition that it is a possibilty that makes it logical, as opposed to making an absolute claim one way or another.

The latter makes a positive knowledge claim, while former simply recognises a possibility.  Some agnostics claim the latter, and go on to argue that it is highly likely that we will never know, and thus make no positive knowledge claims, instead simply recognising possibilities.  Others - those you refer to - claim to believe in “a” god, but also claim that they don’t know which one they believe in.  To my mind, the first set of agnostics has the most logical position when it comes to religion.

Josh E says:

03:22pm | 14/12/11

Lostinperth - Dammit, secularism is not that hard to understand. No-one is asking you to change your beliefs. Just that you stop waving them in the face of people who don’t care for them. For similar reasons, the state (including state-run schools) is not at liberty to privilege any religion above others. And no, atheism doesn’t have any doctrine. Although strictly speaking it only means “not having a belief in any gods,” common vernacular expands that meaning to “not having a religion,” which means - gasp - living without referring to doctrines meted out by questionable authorities.

Al - No, it really isn’t a faith position. True, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but that’s a rather specious argument in this case. You could say the same about fairies, leprechauns, unicorns, etc. “There is no god,” is a useful shorthand for, “On the evidence, and having weighed up all the major arguments regarding the existence or non-existence of divine beings, one cannot but conclude that there is almost certainly no god.”

James1 - Good on you for attempting to be even-handed and exposing your child to a wide variety of ideas!

Al says:

07:13am | 15/12/11

Josh E - re: “You could say the same about fairies, leprechauns, unicorns, etc”
Correct - We can state that there is no evidence and it is highly unlikely they exist on Earth, but that does not mean they don’t exist elsewhere, it is a LARGE universe.

marley says:

06:27pm | 14/12/11

@thatmosis - look, first of all, I’m not a believer. Secondly, I don’t enjoy the commercial crap of Christmas.  But third, I realize a lot of people are believers and a lot of people who aren’t, nonetheless enjoy Christmas as a festival, maybe in an entirely pagan way.  Eat, drink, make merry with your loved ones, for tomorrow you die.  That sort of thing.

And that’s fine by me.  No one is forcing me to believe and no one is forcing me to buy stuff. Those are entirely my choices.  I can tolerate having ramadan thrown at me in Muslim countries;  I quite enjoy some of the Hindu festivals; and I would never dream of banning Chinese New year, which has plenty of mythical symbolism attached.  So why should I worry about Christmas trees and Santas? 

No, I don’t want Christian symbolism banned from public appearance, any more than I want Sikh or Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim symbolism banned.  Why should I?  These are all part of the breadth of human culture. 

And no, this is not showing that one part of the community is above and beyond others. lt’s allowing one part of the community to express its beliefs; another part of the community to enjoy the tradition of a Christmas celebration without necessarily sharing the beliefs; a third part to make some money out of it; and the remainder to ignore it completely.  I don’t see why the first three should be denied in order to impose the views of the fourth.

rudy says:

06:46pm | 14/12/11

Nonsense. Jesus was executed because he upset some powerful people long ago in a faraway land. It had nothing to do with Australians living today or their ‘sins’. It’s a fraud and a fantasy.

mel says:

09:39am | 15/12/11

Your country is it? So the remaining 22-23 million of us have to do what you say, do we, whether we want christmas or not?

Your post is confusing. You say “I’m not going to stop anybody else celebrate their holidays” which sounds like you are being reasonable and allowing the rerst of us to do what we like, then you spoil it by saying “but in Australia we celebrate Christmas. If you don’t like it get the hell out of my country.” So which one is it: are we allowed to do what we like or do we have to do what you say?

To paraphrase you: “Enough of this bullshit redneck stupidity. Why don’t you get the hell out of my country!”

A Dose of Reality says:

12:23pm | 15/12/11

Jim,

My family fought in the (second) Boar war.
My family fought in Palestine and supported the charge at Bersheba
My family landed at Gallipoli
My family died in France under the British but triumphed with Monash
My family stood against Rommel.
My family suffered in Changi.
My family walked Kakoda.
…your country, is it?

As the men above would say…………..

David says:

10:47pm | 15/12/11

It’s a plot conceived the AFL in order to play football on Good Friday without upsetting any one.