The most interesting thing I’ve read all year about the climate-change debate is a book that has nothing directly to do with it.

We have totally run out of ideas how to illustrate the carbon tax. Pic: nostradamus2012.com

Dan Gardner’s Future Babble: Why Expert Predictions Fail and Why We Believe Them Anyway explores, well, the title pretty sums it up. Gardner runs through a laundry list of culture-shaping fears and hopes and points out that they were almost always wrong.

Capitalism didn’t end up on the ash heap of history. World War I didn’t turn out to be the war to end all wars. Society wasn’t plunged into anarchy by the Y2K bug. The nightmare scenario of overpopulation Malthusians have been banging on about since 1798 is yet to play out.

That’s despite the likes of Paul Ehrlich (the Al Gore of the ‘70s) predicting in 1968 that: “The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundred of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now.”

It’s 2011, and somehow I still don¹t have a robot maid to clean my house or a jetpack to fly me to work.

There are solid evolutionary reasons humans are desperate to know what is likely to be coming around the corner. And there’s a class of experts who make good coin by pandering to our desperate need to glimpse the future. The only problem with this arrangement is that the experts almost never deliver on their side of the bargain.

In 1984, The Economist asked four former finance ministers, four chairmen of multinational companies, four Oxford economics students and four London dustmen to provide a 10-year forecast of what was going to happen to things like inflation, unemployment and oil prices.

A decade on, it was discovered that while nobody¹s predictions had been particularly accurate, the garbos had done as well as the corporate chairmen and considerably better than the students or former finance ministers.

The likely reason the garbologists did better than the economists probably relates to what might be labelled the paradox of prognostication. Those humble types who accept the future is very difficult to predict do much better at forecasting it than those who are supremely confident of their seer-like capabilities - usually because they’re in thrall to One Big Idea That Explains Everything.

Guess which type of expert is most likely to get media attention, research funding and political backing?

Of course, given the marketplace of ideas is filled to bursting with predictions of mankind’s imminent doom, if some course of action is or isn’t taken, there’s still the issue of which apocalypse you choose to fear.

Fortuitously enough, most of the time we opt for the one that involves people other than ourselves bearing most of the cost of taking action to stave off whatever the threat is.

It seems unlikely those men and women of a certain age who turn up to Lord Monckton’s rallies haven’t blanched at the thought of all that government money - funds that could otherwise be spent on, say, lavish benefits for self-funded retirees - being frittered away safeguarding the future of a planet they soon won’t be around to enjoy.

On the other hand, their typically young opponents can afford to be relaxed about, say, calling for massive government investment in renewable energy knowing that, in the short-term at least, it’ll be their parents and grandparents generation who¹ll picking up most of the tab for it.

Not too long ago, a clear majority of Australians feared we were at serious risk of an ecopocalypse if we didn’t price carbon. Apparently, at least half of us now believe will face economic Armageddon if we do.

Regardless of which camp you currently fall into, human nature being what it is, here’s one prediction I’m utterly confident making: at some point down the track, all of us - with the possible exceptions of Tim Flannery and Andrew Bolt - will be claiming we’d either (a) said all along that climate change was a grave threat and urged action to combat it or (b) said all along that climate change was a total media beat-up and never believed in it.

And therein lies the dirty little secret at the heart of the Nostradamus caper. With rare exceptions, neither the experts who make predictions nor the people who believe them end up wearing the consequences. With 20-20 hindsight, we all find ourselves on the right side of history.

With Tony Abbott promising the 2013 election will be a referendum on the carbon tax, it’s worth recalling the 1966 election, which was essentially a referendum on the Vietnam War.

The Coalition won an impressive victory, with a majority of voters presumably believing the much-touted prediction that if Vietnam went communist, a host of other nations would soon fall like dominoes to the Reds. How many of those voters are game to put their hand up today to say that war was worth the expenditure of blood and treasure?

So maybe a plebiscite isn’t such a stupid idea after all - as long as the way everyone votes is on the public record.

One of the advantages of being a journalist is the ability to come up with simple solutions to complex problems, so here’s mine to the carbon tax debate currently tearing the nation in two: given that the future of the planet is potentially at stake, let’s all declare our position and have some skin in the game in terms of the effects of either choosing to price carbon or walking away from doing so.

If it turns out the sceptics’ scepticism is unfounded and trillions of dollars eventually need to be thrown at containing an ecological catastrophe, then those sceptics should be the first targeted when the government goes looking for money. Stopping any government assistance they receive - old-age pensions, free medical care etc - might be a good place to start.

Alternatively, if the climate change turns out to be a false scare, warmists should be subject to significant higher rates of income tax for the rest of their working lives to help pay off the costs incurred implementing carbon-reduction schemes.

That seems like a neat solution to me, but here’s one last prediction: very few of those currently sounding off on either side of the debate would be willing to really demonstrate the courage of their convictions.

286 comments

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    • Erick says:

      06:32am | 18/07/11

      What’s this? An article about balancing the climate change debate that actually *is* balanced?

      I love the experts-vs-garbos prediction study. So much for the elitists who think voters shouldn’t be consulted because they’re too ignorant!

    • Kevin says:

      07:52am | 18/07/11

      The garbos v experts case study concerned economics and, if anything, proved that economics is inherently unpredictable.

    • Reggie says:

      08:46am | 18/07/11

      What’s this you’re banging on about Nigel?

      Experts never getting it right?

      Have you taken a look around lately and observed that we have order and not chaos. That advances wrought of the scientific approach have succeeded beyond our wildest dreams despite your efforts to halt them?

      That in positive terms and with the exception of Sony B Goode, the majority of individuals have contributed to this process?

      Don’t know which siding you’ve been shuttled off to Nigel, but there’s no surprise in finding Erick as your travelling companion.

    • john taylor says:

      10:02am | 18/07/11

      Erick I think ‘balance’ occurs in the climate debate in the sense of ‘unbalanced’ vide the virulence of the views from either side.

      Sure, use the old adage regarding heat and kitchens - but this issue aint taking place in the kitchen.  More like the parking lot after the pub has closed.

      It is worse than watching a juniors footy game.  A shouting slanging match with insults and threats of violence is not debate - no matter how many Question Times one watches.

      I appreciate that people are angry - but what sensible person does or says anything of value out of anger?

    • Tim says:

      10:14am | 18/07/11

      Kevin is correct, economics is inherently unpredictable, unlike the climate of our planet.

    • Gregg says:

      11:10am | 18/07/11

      @Tim
      ” Kevin is correct, economics is inherently unpredictable, unlike the climate of our planet. “
      And on the latter part of the sentence, ICB

      Other than of course it is highly predictable that climate variations are of many cycles, weeks, even days at times, years, decades, centuries and no doubt thousands and more years.

    • Erick says:

      11:22am | 18/07/11

      @Kevin - Any complex system involving multiple feedback loops is inherently unpredictable in the medium term. This includes economics, weather, and climate.

      That’s why the best models of the experts in both economics and climate change have failed to produce any more accurate results than random people on the street, and will continue to do so.

    • Radagast says:

      11:47am | 18/07/11

      The experts didn’t see the GFC coming either. (I think the Greens were the only ones who did, and that earned them the anti-corporate tag). Global warming/climate change is a risk that needs to me managed. It has nothing to do with political ideology, and this is what’s causing the problems. It’s bout time we had some reasoned debate here, instead of all the fear mongering. Sowhy not invest in renewables?

    • Gregg says:

      12:03pm | 18/07/11

      @Radagast
      ” Sowhy not invest in renewables? “
      For what purpose?
      To just produce expensive non base load power!
      To just put up the cost of electricity for everyone.
      To raise the potential of operating and reliability problems for reliable base load generating units?

    • andy says:

      12:08pm | 18/07/11

      Oh what a shame. You started making a point in the 1st paragraph, then you veered off into your regular name calling and strawman construction at the end. Who exactly are these “elitists”? Where are they calling for this?

    • Seth Brundle says:

      12:08pm | 18/07/11

      @Tim - Our climate isnt all that predictable, as revealed by the failed predictions of the warming alarmists (oh sorry, its “climate change” now that its actually getting cooler, isnt it?).  Apparently the only change that is not man made is when it remains completely and utterly stable, which of course has never happened and will never happen.

    • Kevin says:

      12:53pm | 18/07/11

      I agree that climate science and economics have a lot in common.  A problem shared is that it is impossible to conduct large scale experiments and, accordingly, both disciplines need to use modelling to evaluate the possible effects of variables.  Economics does have the additional complication of being dependent on human behaviour.
      I would like Erick to clarify who he is referring to as “the elitists”.  There seems to be shades of the Cultural Revolution there.

    • Gus says:

      12:56pm | 18/07/11

      I agree Radagast,

      There is enough evidence to show there is at least the risk of a substantial threat to our way of life from the build up of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, I am prepared to pay a couple of cents extra for a pack of Weetbix start the transition to a clean energy economy.

    • andy says:

      01:01pm | 18/07/11

      @seth -  “Apparently the only change that is not man made is when it remains completely and utterly stable” Yet again we have someone debunking claims that they made up themselves. Scientists dont think that, seth.

    • Erick says:

      01:50pm | 18/07/11

      @Kevin - By “the elitists”, I am referring here to all those who believe that the consent of the general public should be overridden in favour of the prophecies of their idols. This includes The Greens, and all Punch commenters who say that the carbon tax should override the clearly expressed will of the voters.

    • Wombat says:

      02:09pm | 18/07/11

      Just a Little bit of Balance to add to the debate that I read the other day, and it is so true on what’s happening today to all of us being Hodwinked by the most out of touch Goverment I have know in my 84yrs on this planet in Australia.

      I think it is about time we hear from the silent majority.   I’m just one voice in this group. I’ve just read an article re a new law to be debated in US.  We are not as badly off as them but how much longer can we put up with this inept, out of control big spending government. Hope we all remain well.        

      There’s a great quote from Atlas Shrugged that comes to mind which sums this all up:

      “When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; when you see that men get rich more easily by graft than by work, and your laws no longer protect you against them, but protect them against you. . . you may know that your society is doomed.”

      We’ve discussed the story of the boiling frog so many times before—a frog, when put into a pot of water and slowly brought to a boil, doesn’t realize that he’s in danger until its too late. I think the boiling frog just got a little hotter. Have you hit your breaking point yet?

    • Gus says:

      02:33pm | 18/07/11

      Interesting point Erick,

      I can remember a time in the not to distant past when Kevin Rudd was given a mandate by way of an election win to introduce an ETS, which was blocked by Abbott even though polls at the time indicated the policy had the majority support of the public.

      Funny how Abbott only respects the will of the people when it suits his agenda.

    • Barney says:

      04:55pm | 18/07/11

      Sadly, not consulting voters seems to be the right thing to do because mostly they are too ignorant !

    • Richard says:

      05:10pm | 18/07/11

      Radagast, I gotta pull you up: the Greens never in no way shape or form predicted the GFC. They didn’t even come close. The only ones who predicted the GFC were a small disparate bunch of heterodox economists from the ‘Austrian’ School of thought.

      The problem with the Greens is that, yes they hate Big Business, which is good. But they love Big Government, and the dirty secret truth is that once you get to the very highest echelons of power, Big Business and Big Government is virtually indistinguishable. You read the famous Rolling Stone article by Matt Taibbi about Goldman Sachs: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405 , it proves that both Big Government and Big Business are in cahoots, preserving and expanding their own power and wealth at the expense of the regular people. It is, to use Max Keiser’s expression, a “Casino Gulag Kleptocracy”.

      The only solution Radagast is the decentralisation of wealth and power, this is the only way to increase opportunity for the regular man and more equitably distribute the fruits of humanity’s knowledge and labour to those who deserve (as opposed to those who “need” it or those who can take it). The only way to do this is through following the libertarian minarchist principles of Classical Liberalism, and the only major political party that comes anywhere near honouring those principles are the Liberals.

      Now the Liberals are not perfect, not by a long long way. But when the only other realistic option is the ALP which is currently dominated by its socialist left-wing, and the Greens (who are even more socialists), there can be only one choice: the Liberals.

    • Tator says:

      06:37pm | 18/07/11

      Gus,
      you also have to factor in that the Greens, Fielding and Xenophon also voted against the CPRS.  Had the Greens supported the CPRS the bill would have been passed as two Coalition Senators crossed the floor.  In addition, if it was such important legislation, why did Rudd not table it again in the Senate to let them knock it back a second time and use the Double Dissolution mechanism to get it through.  The blame cannot be sheeted home just to Abbott who was just doing what his supporters wanted him to do and equal blame should be allocated to the Greens who also voted against it as it was not a tough enough package for their ideology.

    • Chance says:

      07:17pm | 18/07/11

      Richard, I would agree with you regarding the Liberals if they weren’t hijacked by the religious right. They have no respect for individuals civil liberties. Put Malcolm Turnbull in control and eject the religious nutters and you would have an unstoppable party, they would have my vote.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:32am | 18/07/11

      The majority wants what it wants! Simple as that….........

    • Tedd says:

      12:03pm | 18/07/11

      They want what they personally want more than “want as a collective”.

      A key issue is emphasis on opinion, rather than rational argument around facts and deduction based on those.

      The climate-change-deniers are less likely to understand the facts and proper scientific discourse.

    • Johan says:

      03:03pm | 18/07/11

      OK Ted, so you’re smarter than the the guys on the other side “just because you’re a warmist”?

    • B says:

      03:47pm | 18/07/11

      @Tedd

      Why is that Tedd?  Did warmists get a different education than the deniers?  Bit high up there on your horse mate?

    • Gregg says:

      03:57pm | 18/07/11

      Johan
      Who are the guys on the other side?
      What other side?
      Really!

    • Against the Man says:

      04:43pm | 18/07/11

      Like I said the majority wants what it wants ..............smile

    • Coxinator says:

      06:36am | 18/07/11

      Don’t reckon that’s going to work. Skeptics won’t be receiving the old aged pension, because they are smart and likely to be self funded retirees. Also warmists probably won’t have a job so it will be a bit hard to up their tax when all they do is rise at 11 and go to a protest rally.

    • persephone says:

      09:39am | 18/07/11

      So where are the smart sceptics?

      There’s about half a dozen sceptics with any profile at all, compared to thousands of smart scientists and economists.

      Unless, of course, they’ve all been smart enough to avoid positions where they have the money and influence to speak out,.

    • RyaN says:

      10:41am | 18/07/11

      You mean like the “smart” warmists that base most of their global warming knowledge on a fictional movie “the day after tomorrow”.
      Please see the South Park version for a reality check.

    • Matthew says:

      10:55am | 18/07/11

      persephone, if you’re going by “smart” scientists they’d be in fields other than environment.  Things were truly smart people are constantly on the edge of advancement (medical, physics, chemistry, biology and technological).  Besides, having a gift for an area doesn’t make you smart in other areas.

      I know more about a computer than anyone in the environmental science and economy fields.  But as you point out, you go to a doctor when you’re sick, not an architect (despite them both spending a ridiculous amount of time at university).  Unfortunately there’s good (Fred Hollows) and bad (Jayant Patel) in every field.

    • Michael says:

      10:58am | 18/07/11

      They will probably wait until all the name calling from the warmists has died down pers’.

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      10:59am | 18/07/11

      Welcome back Persetelephone

      Each to their own, smart skeptics, smart scientists, smart economists, smart journalists all are now just having “intellectual wanks” because at the end of the day it is all about Julia Gillard and the people she represents.

      Julia Gillard highly qualified, gift of the gab, lacks common sense and wisdom, a liar in defiance who refuses to listen to the people. This is why what Tony Abbott says; “no tax collection before an election” is music to our ears.

    • persephone says:

      11:28am | 18/07/11

      RyaN

      don’t know any warmists who do that.

      Certainly the scientists in the field and the economists don’t.

      Matthew

      So we’re in agreement.

      Michael

      like the death threats to climate scientists?

    • Michael says:

      11:53am | 18/07/11

      yes pers’ like the death threats, everyone just needs to take a step back from their personal position and let the debate happen and allow other view points to be heard or seen.

    • ZSRenn says:

      12:21pm | 18/07/11

      @ Peresphone I and others have posted a link to smart sceptics before and you have either chosen not to look at it or have conveniantly forgotton. So I wont bother posting that one again.

      But you may find this one interesting that Ben81 posted

      You may have missed this one also but more likely didn’t understand it.

    • Jason says:

      12:51pm | 18/07/11

      If the climatologists are ‘smart’, then they’re jumping on the alarmist bandwagon with everyone else.

      Climatologist A: Impending disaster!  Global warming is going to devastate the planet!  It’s going to kill millions and cost trillions in damages!
      Media response: Wow, what a story.  This stuff’s going on the front page!
      Government response: What?  That’s horrible!  What you need more grant funding to hire more climatologists and to do further study?  Absolutely! (Hmm, maybe we can raise some taxes from this?)

      Climatologist B:  Climate is changing as always, but appears to be natural changes.  No impending climate disaster on the horizon.
      Media response:  What?  Yawn.  Call us when you have a real story.
      Government response:  That’s nice.  What you need more grant funding to do further studies?  Sorry, budgets a bit tight, in fact since everything is fine we’re going to have to cut your budget in half.

    • David says:

      01:01pm | 18/07/11

      ZSRenn - so the smart sceptics claim 2/3rds of warming is due to human activity.

      Good to see they are onboard.

    • Fiddler says:

      01:02pm | 18/07/11

      @RyaN
      We didn’t listen, we didn’t listen!!!!!!

    • loxy says:

      01:20pm | 18/07/11

      Actually coxinator, I would suggest the complete opposite. Most people I know who believe in climate change and support the carbon tax (including myself) are medium to high income earners – hence the ones bearing the majority of the brunt of the carbon tax.

    • Dissident says:

      02:04pm | 18/07/11

      Good to see you back, Perse. I seem to recall you have said this before - science isn’t a popularity contest. Proving a theorum isn’t about getting people to agree with you.

      Jason has nailed it. Research grants in the modern world are granted based on cost-benefit analysis. If you say climate change will cost $10 million, but you can fix it for $5 million - the choice is obvious. Squeaky wheels get the oil.

      The tragedy is that the money spent trying to show that climate change is real, largely induced by man AND will be more expensive to fix in the future (rather than just adapting to any changes like life has done for the last, say, 6,000,000,000 years) could be better spent elsewhere - particularly in research.

      Every gamer knows that the best way to win “Civilisation” is with a boat-load of resources to research.

      How about more money for medical research? Or, even better, more money for cleaner or more effective tidal, solar, coal and nuclear power plants?

      If the warmists are so sure that the world is heating to hell - why do they need money to prove it? Why don’t they spend the money instead on fixing a problem that they are sure already exists? I think that any reasonable minded person will agree that better electricity generation (yields per tonne of coal burnt, etc) will be beneficial irrespective of whether or not the climate is changing due to humanity’s actions.

    • RyaN says:

      02:05pm | 18/07/11

      @persephone: but you do!

    • persephone says:

      02:34pm | 18/07/11

      RyaN

      no, I don’t.

      I don’t base the majority of my knowledge - or, indeed, any of it - on the film, but have used it as an example of a possible scenario, to illustrate that the globe warming overall does not mean that particular areas won’t be cooler.

      In other words, I’ve used it as an example, not as evidence.

      But thanks for saying I’m smart.

      Dissedent

      fine, except at one point scientists knew that they couldn’t get funding if they made any references to climate change.

      And medical research still attracts far more money.

      A scientist who could credibly disprove climate change would receive bucketloads of money, far more than is available from governments.

      Indeed, that’s exactly how Pilmer et al get their funding!

      So the premise is incorrect; there is more money in disproving climate change than in proving it. It’s just that the evidence that it’s happening is overwhelming, and those trying to earn a quid disproving it are having a hard time doing so.

    • Anubis says:

      03:06pm | 18/07/11

      @ persephone - Please provide some figures to substantiate your claim that there is more grant funding going toward disproving climate change than there is to proving it.

      Having previously worked in the field of Research Grant funding (both medical and sciences) for many years I find that your statement is highly illogical and demonstrates a total lack of understanding of how funding of scientific research is handled.

      Figures please persephone for that rather unequivocal statement that you made.

    • Dissident says:

      03:22pm | 18/07/11

      Perse - I disagree that there is more money to disproving ACC than proving it. Corporations have deep pockets, true, but Governments have deeper pockets. They aren’t offering rewards for proving that everything is OK.

      As far as the medical research goes - that is true that it gets a lot of money and I confess that I did throw it in their to be a little facetious. I have been reading the local rag too much and we always have the people who say we shouldn’t build a new Perth stadium because that money would be better spent on hospitals. I do know better!

      My argument is that we should be investing in better power generation not because it is good for preventing climate change, but for the economic perogative. If the local generator can produce electricity for half price, he will probably pass on at least some of the cost reduction to the consumer. Further, ACC is not a problem but local pollution is - so prioritise that rather than trying to save the world.

      As far as ACC specifically, my opinion is that we would be better served dealing with any deleterious effects of Climate Change as they occur - if at all. Collectively we will be smarter in 20 years than we are now - we will be better equipped to deal with it. We will be smarter again in 50, and so on.

      By the way, it is exceedingly difficult to prove a negative. How is one expected to disprove something that might happen in the future? Computer models predicting something that might happen aren’t disproved until the future arrives and it doesn’t. Like Perth being a ghost metropolis, or never seeing snow in the UK again, or Brisbane running out of water because it simply won’t rain again. I know that weather isn’t climate - but the computer models telling us about the apocolyptic future can’t even predict what has already happened.

    • persephone says:

      03:45pm | 18/07/11

      Anubis

      please find the quote where I refer to ‘grant funding’.

      I’m talking about money.

      Professional climate sceptics are often backed by mining and petroleum interests, which have far deeper pockets than your average government.

      See:

      http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/exxon-still-aids-climate-sceptics/story-e6frg6so-1225894256861

      http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=american-climate-skeptic-soon-funde

      So, for example, William Soon - who writes a lot of the ‘peer reviewed’ papers regularly cited by climate sceptics - has received over $1 million in funding from various organisations who are ‘anti climate change’.

      That’s a heap more than most regular pro climate change scientists receive - government grants are scarcely generous.

      Dissident

      part of my answer to you is covered by the above.

      However, a couple of points:

      1. Without some kind of carbon price, there is no incentive to invest in ‘better’ electricity generation. Coal wins hands down. It’s cheap and we’ve got hundreds of years supply (particularly when we’re talking brown coal).

      The absolutely only downside to coal is its carbon emissions.

      2. We have to do both - adapt and mitigate. The economics is clear that mitigation is cheaper than adaption.

      Adaption to rising climates doesn’t mean fiddling at the edges. It means major shifts in population centres, the abandonment of much of our present agricultural land, massive investments in things such as desalination plants, etc.

      We have enough trouble, for example, coping with a few thousand boat people. If we don’t mitigate, all projections are that we can multiply refugee populations by hundreds.

      Which raises the other problem with adaption; it changes our own situation, but does nothing to tackle the wider problem.

    • persephone says:

      03:52pm | 18/07/11

      Sorry, Dissedent - got called away and didn’t finish my answer.

      As for the predictive stuff - I first became interested in the subject of climate change back in the early 00’s. I have some papers here - alas, from before the times when everything worthwhile was put online - from CSIRO, written in 2002, which emphasis that the earliest indicator of climate change would be the increased occurence and intensity of extreme weather events.

      That prediction was correct.

      Indeed, my understanding is (and sorry, I don’t have the time to google some links, but I assure you they’re not hard to find) that most of the predictions - if not all - made on the basis of the modelling have been proven to be conservative.

      In other words, things have gotten a lot worse more quickly than the original predictions.

      In fact, the success of climate change science in its predictions is one of the reasons that climate change theory is now so generally accepted in the scientific community.

    • Disraeli says:

      04:03pm | 18/07/11

      Excellent to see you again on The Punch, Perspehone.

      All well with self & family I hope.

      Always look forward to reading your posts.

    • Dissident says:

      04:36pm | 18/07/11

      Perse - Again I disagree.

      Total tax revenue (federal) for the US in 2010 was $2.16 trillion.

      Total revenue for Exxon in 2010 was $3.23 billion.

      Both figures were obtained from wikipedia - I know it is hardly the most reliable source but it is fast and I can’t be bothered going to much more depth today. Exxons financials are probably pretty easy to get a hold of, as are budget papers.

      Bear in mind as well that States in the US also collect proportionally a far greater share than in Australia and you see that the pool for government grants far exceeds the private sector. Also, taxpayers don’t demand share price growth and dividends like shareholders do.

      You don’t need a Carbon Price / Tax to encourage investment. Incentives and punishments like these often have the opposite effect or unforseen negative effects.

      Competitive advantage and a better return to shareholders is the best motivator of invention. The company that produces electricity for half the price of their competitor can massively increase their profit and eliminate it’s competitors by selling the product for cheaper.

      Consider the case of automobiles - they are progressively becoming more fuel efficient because that matters to the customer. I appreciate that there are rules out there about emissions standards - they also help. The key issue, though, is that a car like a Hyundai Getz is constantly marketed as the cheapest car to own and run. If I am a fleet buyer and I have to run 1,000 cars - that matters a lot. The Holden Commodore also meets the emission standards - but the Getz wins hands down because it is cheaper to run.

      When I say ‘invest’ in better electricity generation, I think the best way to do it is in quasi-partnership with the private sector. There are already substantial R&D expenditure taxation benefits out there, and I would suggest that these taxation benefits should be increased.

      Don’t get me wrong - sometimes you have to centrally control research. We wouldn’t have made it to the moon without government centralist control, but improvements on existing technologies are predominantly driven by a commercial operations.

    • persephone says:

      04:37pm | 18/07/11

      Thanks, Disraeli.

      Everything fine, just a thing called ‘school holidays’ meant I was occupied elsewhere.

      Oh, and sometimes I need a bit of a holiday from this place!!!

    • RyaN says:

      04:53pm | 18/07/11

      @persephone: “but have used it as an example of a possible scenario ” Well I can tell you pers, if well renowned climatologist and expert Jack Hall says the scenario is possible then it must be true.

      Go science!

    • RyaN says:

      04:57pm | 18/07/11

      @persephone: oh and in case you hadn’t realised I was ridiculing you for using a complete and utter fictional story as an example of “what could happen”, here is a great analysis and piece by piece breakdown of each of the completely fictional events which you claim “could happen”.
      http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-05-24-michaels_x.htm

    • persephone says:

      05:21pm | 18/07/11

      Dissident

      Didn’t you just prove my point - Exxon (by itself, as one company among several) has more income than the US government.

      Which means it has more to invest in the kind of research which suits it - which certainly isn’t proving climate change is real!

      That many of the ‘climate sceptics’ research is backed by private companies is a matter of record.

      That it is to these companies’ self interest to disprove climate change, or at least to delay action, is a matter of common sense.

      I repeat: there is more money to be made by being a professional denier than there is by being just another one of thousands working in the field of ‘normal’ climate change.

      That there are so few deniers out there in the scientific world - and fewer still who aren’t employed by those with a direct financial interest in disproving the science - demonstrates the strength of the evidence.

      Governments have a history of intervening when the ‘market’ by itself has failed to deal with a problem.

      Smoking wasn’t going to stop by itself, despite bucketloads of evidence out there avaiable to everyone that it was addic tive and caused health problems.

      If we’d sat around waiting for consumers - or companies - to drive changes to tobacco use, we’d still be facing high numbers of people dying from preventable diseases caused by smoking.

      Governments intervened. Smoking numbers have gone down with every intervention, in a way they never did when it was up to the companies or users to self regulate.

      The same with road tolls. Again, the information was out there about the dangers. Without government intervention, there was little or no action.

      So it is with climate change. The facts have been out there for over a decade. There have been various forms of encouragement for industry to change their ways available for nearly as long.

      There’s been lots of information for consumers out there as well.

      Although there is some action by both, it’s not fast enough or hard enough to make a difference.

      That’s when governments rightly should intervene (read your Adam Smith!) - when there is a clear risk, and when the market, by itself, is not working.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      05:22pm | 18/07/11

      pers@ “So, for example, William Soon - who writes a lot of the ‘peer reviewed’ papers regularly cited by climate sceptics - has received over $1 million in funding from various organisations who are ‘anti climate change’.
      That’s a heap more than most regular pro climate change scientists receive - government grants are scarcely generous”

      Not true, there is big money involved, from EA CRU emails

      From: Keith Briffa <k.briffa @ ZZZ.uea.ac.uk>
      To: rbradley @ ZZZ.umass.edu
      Subject: Re: PAGES Open Science Meeting publication
      Date: Fri Sep 18 12:57:16 1998
      Cc: oldfield @ ZZZ.unibe.ch

      Ray
        this is simply to say that I will get my paper to you as soon as I can. Frank knows that I am currently involved with writing a bid on behalf of the earth science community to try to extract 8 million pounds for a 5 year project from NERC to support Palaeo/Modelling validatin work.

    • B says:

      05:31pm | 18/07/11

      @persephone

      Here you come again with your diatribe.  So its a conspiracy is it??  A conspiracy to stop world climate change action??

      Why is it NOT a conspiracy when it is from the left, but it is when it is from the right???

    • persephone says:

      05:43pm | 18/07/11

      RyaN

      I used a fictional movie to illustrate a point.

      Get over it.

    • Dissident says:

      05:52pm | 18/07/11

      Perse - check the post again. Billions vs Trillions. The US government has revenue of over 650 times more than Exxon.

      I think we will have to agree to disagree on the effect of government intervention in research / invention. Real significant changes in technology are driven by the private sector. The government didn’t direct the funding to invent the steam engine.

    • Jason says:

      10:21pm | 18/07/11

      Willie Soon is in fact a perfect example of why you don’t see as many scientists on the sceptic side of the equation.  As soon as it’s discovered where the funding comes from, he’s immediately discredited as being biased and having a vested interest in the result despite publishing his work in peer-reviewed literature.  Oil and coal are quite away that any study they fund is going to be discredited so spending large sums on studies would be pointless, however when the shoe is on the other foot, the warmist scientist’s vested interest is never questioned.
      Oh and having worked in a company heavily dependent on government grant funding, I can assure you that the $1million Soon received over a 10 year period is bugger all compared to the amount being thrown around by the Australian Government alone, let alone other governments around the world and the UN.

    • RyaN says:

      11:28am | 19/07/11

      @persephone: exactly persephone, you used a fictional movie to propagate absolute fiction. The point it illustrated is your complete and utter lack of credibility on the subject.

    • Super D says:

      06:40am | 18/07/11

      I am more than happy to identify with the side that claims that due to global inaction any money spent by Australia on emissions reduction is a total waste.  This is the only sensible position to take.  It’s one thing to believe in global warming where we will not know for certain either way for many decades.  It is another thing altogether to believe that the world is or soon will be making a concerted effort to reduce carbon emissions and that anything we do will have any influence at all.

    • JohnB says:

      10:47am | 18/07/11

      That’s the whole problem with this debate. You can’t “reduce carbon emissions” or the entire use of all the fossil fuels. We will continue to use fossil fuels until there are none left.

      So, it should be seen for what it is; an effort in futility. We expect our government to tackle problems it can solve and not dither with ideology at the expense of real solutions.

    • Mattb says:

      12:14pm | 18/07/11

      @johnb

      “That’s the whole problem with this debate. You can’t “reduce carbon emissions” or the entire use of all the fossil fuels. We will continue to use fossil fuels until there are none left.”

      WTF???, Why can’t you ‘reduce carbon emissions’?. It’s easy really, instead of jumping in the car and driving to the corner store, walk or ride a bike. How about turning your appliances off at the wall after you use them instead of lazily using the remote and walking away?. How about throwing on a jumper instead of the heater?, maybe take a shorter shower?, these are just a couple of examples of the many ways you can reduce your reliance on fossil fuel energy’s and thus reduce carbon emissions John. There are many more available to you, you just need to look harder.

      Your right though, we probably will continue to use fossil fuels in one way or another until there are none left, after all, petrochemicals don’t just supply us with fuel to drive machinery, they have a far wider range of uses than that. The carbon price policy isn’t being implemented to instantly remove fossil fuel use from our economy big fella, it’s more a mechanism to help reduce our reliance on fossil fuel’s, foster R&D into alternatives and set our country’s economy up for the day that fossil fuel’s do run dry. It’s not that hard to understand when you put your greivances aside, stand back, and think about it.

      You mentioned ‘real solutions’ to the problem John, like you seem to know of some, could you enlighten us on these?, really would like to hear about these ‘real solutions’, they sound all warm and cosy…..

    • JohnB says:

      01:42pm | 18/07/11

      The “real solutions” Mattb are simple science. Something governments don’t want to look at. They listen to an expert and think “hhhm, how can we benefit our government and how can we con the public into it?” by using one fragment of what they’ve been told. Carbon is definitely a problem and I’m sure scientists told the gov that. BUT, there is nothing that will stop the entire use of fossil fuels.

      My core point is all the fossil fuels will be used with or without a tax. So therefore the benefit of a tax is zero. Makes no difference if we slow it down a year does it?

      Population on the other hand is depleting plants everywhere, for train lines, roads, hospitals, agricultural land, housing etc. Plants lock carbon EXACTLY the same as fossil fuel does…..They don’t tell us that do they huh? We are being scammed and it will really really hurt by the time the average voter works it out. Our governments absolutely need to reduce population both here and globally. In addition to all this is the obvious impact more and more people have on fisheries and native animals.

      So, if we were concerned about the environment, wouldn’t it make sense to forget this stupid carbon tax and reduce population?

    • Trevor says:

      01:45pm | 18/07/11

      It’s called leadership.

    • RyaN says:

      02:25pm | 18/07/11

      @Mattb: the real solution is banning anyone who is for a carbon tax from any access to anything remotely associated to outputting carbon.
      They should be forced to put their lives where their hypocritical mouths are.

      Some of the worlds worst emitters per individual are “the end is nigh” warmists, Gillard and Gore for example.

    • Anubis says:

      03:00pm | 18/07/11

      Under the Gillard “Cunning Plan” the majority of mitigation will be done by sending billions of dollars overseas to purchase Carbon Certificates (or credits). The Treasury modelling has actually indicated that we will increase our emissions by over 60000 tonnes per year.

      Even if Gillard’s Emission reduction proposal were to be met (160,000 tonne reduction) that would have a maximum global temperature effect of about one-4000th of a degree.

      What is the point? Why not just initiate tax incentives for the supposed 500 big polluters (were the other 500 not really big polluters as previously touted?) in order to create a technology shift to more environmental practices and WHY is Nuclear Power Generation not even being discussed. If there is such a dire risk to the earth why rule out the one technology that can, at the moment, replace our use of coal for base load power and in the same process reduce our emissions by upwards of 60% ?

    • Mattb says:

      03:51pm | 18/07/11

      @johnb

      “My core point is all the fossil fuels will be used with or without a tax. So therefore the benefit of a tax is zero. Makes no difference if we slow it down a year does it?”

      Yes, it actually does make a difference John, if we slow the release of carbon into the atmosphere down it gives the environment a greater chance to absorb it. It’s like alcohol in the human body, moderate amounts over a long period of time are better than large amounts over a short period, it gives the body more time to process it and flush it out before it causes too much damage. Reducing our reliance on fossil fuel and as such our carbon pollution, using a carbon pricing mechanism, is the best way of doing this.

      Using the revenue raised from the scheme to fund research into alternative energy sources is quite possibly the most critical part of the policy, if we can find and implement alternatives BEFORE fossil fuels are exhausted then we’re fu&ken; laughing.

      The only part of the policy I am against is the compensation. Partly because it slightly reduces the pricing mechanisms’ effect and partly because I won’t see any compensation!. I’d rather see all the money directed toward R&D of alternative energy’s because if I’m still around when we run out of fossil fuels and, at that point, we’re all standing around scratching our arses wondering, what now?, I’d really be pissed

    • JAZ says:

      04:13pm | 18/07/11

      JohnB thank f*ck someone on here is talking sense.
      With an ever increasing local and global population any scheme or tax to reduce emissions is completely useless. The biggest problem facing this planet bar none is the ridiculous explosion in population. Its completely unsustainable. The worlds governments have to be aware of this problem but do nothing to stop it or even discuss it.  This entire climate change discussion is so useless without first addressing how we can decrease the population and soon..  Gee I wonder why this isnt discussed more..  certainly wouldnt want to offend anyone

    • JohnB says:

      04:29pm | 18/07/11

      “slow the release of carbon into the atmosphere down it gives the environment a greater chance to absorb it.” Sounds true Mattb

      I can see that some excess CO2 would be absorbed by plants and particularly ocean algae.

      I can however also see that in that time there’d be eighty million extra people on the planet each year with lots of development and farming decimating present vegetation. I think, ignoring population growth while the government dithers with a carbon tax, we’d be going backwards. Either way, we’re going backwards.

      That’s the perception in lots of pro tax voters. They think we’d be heading towards a better future. That’s far from a fact. In fact at best, we’d be heading towards a less bad future (than we would without the tax). Again, it comes back to the voters being conned by a socialist government. Have we learned nothing from all the socialist experiments gone wrong overseas?

      M. Thatcher….“Socialism works until the socialists run out of other peoples money”....In Australia that has already happened but we’re still doing it anyway.

    • Mattb says:

      04:29pm | 18/07/11

      @Anubis

      “What is the point? Why not just initiate tax incentives for the supposed 500 big polluters (were the other 500 not really big polluters as previously touted?) in order to create a technology shift to more environmental practices”

      Um, Anubis, you’ve just asked for exactly what the price on carbon will deliver. It is a tax incentive,
      Reducing your carbon emissions in production = shifting to more environmentally friendly technologies/ methods of production=pay less tax!
      Which then = cheaper production cost to your business = lower price you charge for your product = competitive edge over your competition.

      Ok, so it’s not exactly what your asking for I know, your talking about TA’s direct action plan of paying the polluter to clean up it’s act through incentives. You do realize the money to do so will come from the government coffers, which means it will need to be costed, and other government spending will have to be cut to accommodate it. Then it will need to be heavily regulated to ensure it achieves its goals. That’s the irony of this entire debate, the liberals should be screaming for a market based approach (carbon pricing) and labor for a socialist approach (a bit like a ‘big government’ direct action plan) but it’s the other way around. Its fu&king; madness. Both methods will cost us but one will be a lot more efficient/effective than the other, can you guess which one?

      I’m sure your well aware of the shitstorm that has erupted over this policy, yet you go on further to ask-
      “and WHY is Nuclear Power Generation not even being discussed.”

      Can just see it now can’t you, Tony “anti-nuclear” Abbott to the rescue!

      Ha, Anubis, I wonder WHY…....

    • andy says:

      05:42pm | 18/07/11

      @RyaN - Actually, “the worlds worst emitters per individual” are called: Australians.

      “the real solution is banning anyone who is for a carbon tax from any access to anything remotely associated to outputting carbon. They should be forced to put their lives where their hypocritical mouths are.” Abbott is planning on spending lots of your tax money on his program to reduce carbon output. I assume this means all his supporters should also do the same? You wouldnt want to be a hypocrite now, would you?

    • RyaN says:

      06:03pm | 18/07/11

      @andy: you were doing so well then you towed the party line and started on the blah blah blah Abbott, blah blah so I switched off.

    • Mattb says:

      06:18pm | 18/07/11

      @ JAZ and johnb

      Hey, regarding population controls, you wont hear any arguing from me against the need for population control. Up until this point we’ve never been able to control our population in any meaningful way in this country, although, we had the ‘populate or perish’ ideology in the past so I guess we have had control, just in the wrong direction!. As for world population, not much our government can do about that apart from helping to educate third world countries and their people, we can’t exactly demand they reduce their fertility rates.

      But it still doesn’t give us any excuse to not try and reduce our carbon emissions does it?. What’s wrong with just accepting the size of our own population, as we can’t do much about it that will result in an immediate reduction, and make moves to ensure we live sustainably within the Australian environ?

    • JohnB says:

      07:36pm | 18/07/11

      “What’s wrong with just accepting the size of our own population”....Because they keep increasing it Mattb. It’s projected to double in I think 50 odd years. AND say there’s nothing we can do about it. Like it or not!!!!!!

      I say that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I’d love everyone to demand the government take note of what we want and act.

      Failing that, we can say goodbye to pretty much all our few freedoms, goodbye to most fauna and flora. Goodbye to fresh water, goodbye to inexpensive anything….There’s NOTHING good or in it for us to further overpopulate Australia.

    • andy says:

      07:47pm | 18/07/11

      @RyaN - I was discussing the oppositions policies. did i call him a name? did i characterise conservatives in some general way? no i did not. i asked you a question which challenged your comment. nice you see you dodge the response. how very like a politician of you.

      lots of people are suddenly calling for an election. if this is serious, then one would think these policies are kinda relevant? Do you have any opinion on the matter? ... or do you prefer to vote for a candidate based on the “vibe” and not their actual, you know, policies? or do you genuinely not care if the Liberal policy is better or worse?

    • Mattb says:

      09:03pm | 18/07/11

      @johnb

      Sorry mate, might not have explained what I meant by ‘accepting our population’. I was talking about our current population as there is nothing much we can do about it, I mean, what do you want us to do?. Set up a lottery based on birth dates and if your number comes up you’ve gotta pack your bags and leave the country?, a sort of population via conscription reduction program?

      Sure, it is an issue that definitely needs measures put in place to reduce the chances of our population getting any bigger, shit, I hope we don’t double our population in the next 50 years because we’ll be in alsorts!. If you look at the figures however, with our fertility rate being so low, our immigration rate not too out of control and the average age of our current population I think you’d find the chances of us doubling or population in the next 50 years is pretty low.

      Cutting middle class welfare, family benefits tax exemptions and the baby bonus would be good places to start. A one child policy with a current fertility rate of 1.9 wouldn’t have any effect. What else can we do John?

      It’s also a bit rich to claim on the one hand, as some of us do (not saying you John), that we need a lower population, not a carbon tax that will destroy our mining and industry, when on the other hand these same industries are claiming every second day that they need a bigger labour pool, that the unemployment rate is low and they are crying out for the government to open up the borders to more skilled migrants.
      Sounds to me like these industries need a larger population to enable them to expand, should we give them what they want?, will it destroy them or restrict their expansion if we don’t?.
      Population control is an extremely complex problem and it does have links to our carbon emissions, but both the issues need to be dealt with separately and one shouldn’t be used as an excuse to not put in place measures to offset the other….

    • Anubis says:

      09:45pm | 18/07/11

      @ MattB - I do not support either Abbot or Gillard’s plans. They are both crap. Incentives can be given through the tax system. What Gillard is proposing is the big stick, no carrot and send billions of dollars overseas to purchase carbon credits. The base of Gillard’s plan is a Fabianistic desire to redistribute wealth. it will have no impact on australia’s emissions. Abbott is off with the fairies if he thinks his Direct Action plan will work.

      A combination of R&D incentives and parts of the direct action plan (specifically Agricultural Carbon Sequestration) would be a step forward. But what really needs to be done if the Government is serious about reducing emissions is to put nuclear on the table. This has the ability to reduce emissions by 60% or more with a single technology and has the capability of providing cheaper power once up and running.

      The last thing Australia needs is to get involved in the global Ponzi Scheme that is Carbon Credits Trading.

    • RyaN says:

      11:01pm | 18/07/11

      @andy: If he puts that forward as a policy, I will fight it too. Simple! I think I have stated that previously.
      He would be out of his mind to try something like that considering the current response and we know he won’t.
      I would like to see us repeal from Kyoto and send the UN packing which means no 5% which means no policy required, that’s exactly what I will be expecting from Abbott.

    • JohnB says:

      06:49am | 19/07/11

      Really well said Mattb. I agree. Maintain our population and let’s deal with it. BUT certainly NO more people and let it decline naturally (which it would over time as our birth rates are lower than deaths).

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:12am | 18/07/11

      I prefer math to help me with my predictions. This tax will cost bring cost $25 billion to impliment which is $4500 / household.

      It has to come from somewhere and I very much doubt it is going to come from the bottom line of the 500 companies that are taxed.

    • Knemon says:

      08:35am | 18/07/11

      “This tax will cost bring cost $25 billion to impliment which is $4500 / household” - Say what?

    • JohnB says:

      09:11am | 18/07/11

      There’s a whole lot of places it won’t come from ZSRenn. Where it will come from is VERY predictable. The only possible place is middle income earners.

      Read a great quote the other day. I believe M Thatcher said it years ago.

      ......“Socialism works until the socialists run out of other peoples money”........

    • richard says:

      10:05am | 18/07/11

      SleepyRenn has big problems with maths. He went to the same schools as Barnaby and Hockey.
      Waiting for him to post what each household will be paying to the big polluters under the Abbott do nothing plan.
      Should be a quite the revelation.

    • ZSRenn says:

      11:32am | 18/07/11

      @ Richard Typical Labor reply from Gillard and crew.
      Just lay down a personal attack This is why you are now part of the 26%‘s

      I am not the only one who can do math and it is just simple math.
      I am not the only one that can calculate that the saving in CO2 emissions is only 0.061% for this $25,000,000,000 package.
      I am not the only one that has problems with Combet saying we are
      one of the top polluters in the world by quoting / capita figures and yet Australia ranked 8th producers 6% of China’s emissions ranked 15th.

      Also if you want to lay waste to the LNP plan you do the math. Or can you?

    • andy says:

      12:15pm | 18/07/11

      Labor=Making polluters pay for pollution= Socialism
      Liberals=Direct Action Plan out of your taxes=Not Socialism
      ???

      I have given up trying to make sense of what “socialism” actually means to conservatives. The market solution for Carbon would appear to actually be the least socialist solution so I can only conclude that “socialism” means “anything we disagree with”.

    • richard says:

      03:05pm | 18/07/11

      Thanks for clearing up how much Abbott’s plan would cost per household sleepyrenn.  I see that no economists agree with your figures.
      Oh wait, you don’t have any and neither does the coalition.

    • andt says:

      03:18pm | 18/07/11

      @ZSRenn - “I am not the only one that has problems with Combet saying we are one of the top polluters in the world by quoting / capita figures and yet Australia ranked 8th producers 6% of China’s emissions ranked 15th” Haha, OF COURSE you have a problem with per capita figures. They point out that if we are producing 6% of chinas emissions with only 0.016% of the population of china. What does that say about how much carbon each Australian is producing? Clearly something you want to sweep under the carpet.

    • Peter D says:

      03:53pm | 18/07/11

      Not sure I agree with the figures too. I’m not sure what the what the current number of households there is in AUS right now but based on 7.4m in 2001 and 8.1m in 2006, lets say there is 9m in 2011. If the tax is to collect 25 billion at $23/tonne and “assuming” the 500 big polluters pass this cost on (that’s how business works), then by my maths that’s $2778/household. Now Gillard is giving back $9b in an assistance package for 9/10 households of $1111 (9b shared amoungst 9/10 of 9m), so “roughly” 9/10 will pay $1667/year and 1/10 2778/year.

      Richard could you verify my maths please.

      P.

    • richard says:

      04:15pm | 18/07/11

      Sorry Peter D
      Did you just say how much Abbott’s do nothing plan was going to cost households per year?
      Oh no, you posed a different question didn’t you.
      I did notice sleepyrenn has fallen back to sleep again.
      Nice try Peter

    • Peter D says:

      05:06pm | 18/07/11

      richard,

      I’m not sure that really answered my question. I didn’t ask “What is Tony Abbott’s do nothing plan” going to cost. I asked are my maths correct? If they are then THIS scheme is going to cost tax payers 16b/year - average $1667 for assisted tax payers and $2778 for non-assisted tax payers. Will it also “do nothing” is debatable but I guess the real issue here is, no matter which scheme you consider, it WILL cost the tax payer. Is Gillard “advertising” this – You be the judge.

      Don’t bother responding if you are rusted on labor (which I suspect based on your last response).

    • richard says:

      05:49pm | 18/07/11

      Sorry Peter D
      Did you just say how much Abbott’s do nothing plan was going to cost households per year?
      Oh no, you posed a different question didn’t you.
      I did notice sleepyrenn has fallen back to sleep again.
      Nice try Peter

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:31pm | 18/07/11

      @ andt Yes but they do not take into account that we with a population of only 22.5 million live on the 6th largest land mass country in the world.

      They do not take into account that Australia needs to be self sufficient in many high energy usage products for defense reasons. Car manufacturing is one example of this and after the 2nd world war was placed as the highest priority of the governments at the time because we could not produce our own war vehicles. The government heavily subsidizes this industry today for that very reason.

      They do not take into account our isolation from the rest of the world

      They do not take into account that a lot of the energy we produce is lost as heat in transmission and transfer.

      It’s a twisting of the truth at best and a deliberate piece of misinformation at worst.

      Why do we not use metric tonnes / square kilometer at would give a more accurate description of our usage.

      Yes we are high users / capita but we have our sovereign reasons for being so.

      At the end of the day we produce a miniscule amount of 1.22% of the worlds CO2 emissions and our spending $25 billion to reduce this by 0.061% is ridicules. We would still hold our 8th highest ranking of CO2 emissions / capita after spending this anyway.

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:12pm | 18/07/11

      @ Peter D please allow me to show my working $25,000,000,000 divided by 5.5 million houses (ABS) is $4545 / household. 

      The refund to taxpayers is taken from the money that is collected so that refund will also be charged against the goods sold.

      The purchase of the brown coal burning plants is not included in the Carbon Tax but from general taxation.

      I have not factored in the increase in GST on goods sold because of their increased price.

      I thought I was being cautious at my $4500 figure.

    • Tator says:

      08:37pm | 18/07/11

      Andy,
      Gillard’s carbon tax as reported, will cost the budget bottom line $4.3 billion over 4 years.  On top of this will only abate 2% of the 5% required and the balance will need to be purchased in carbon permits from overseas costing around $3.7 billion a year (using Treasury figures of 100 million tons at $37 a ton for permits) on top of the tax paid by the emitters.
      Now Abbott’s plan costs around $3.2 billion over four years without the adverse effects of increased cost of living that the Carbon tax provides, even with the 30% “blowout” declared by the ALP leaves this plan costing less than the Carbon Tax.
      So whose package is costing the taxpayer more??????,

    • richard says:

      09:08pm | 18/07/11

      sleepyrenn
      You are a genius
      Do you work for treasury? Do you do your own tax returns?
      Hey genius answer my questions with you most excellent math skills.

      what will each household will be paying to the big polluters under the Abbott do nothing plan.
      Simple question for one so brilliant.
      Come on sleepy wake up

    • Peter D says:

      10:33pm | 18/07/11

      Hi ZSRenn.

      I think your # of households is incorrect. ABS (2006) was 7.5m (http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/info/charts/households/havsizedata.html) My figure 9m was based on increase in # of households from 2001 to 2006 (Assuming a simular increase from 2006 to 2011). Either way this is an “indirect” tax of 16b which will be paid for by middle/upper class Australians.

      P.

    • Disraeli says:

      05:37pm | 19/07/11

      Renn’s “math predictions” turn out to be “grab at any shiny big number and guess”.

      First, he mucked up his attempt to get ABS households.  Their releases (Household Projections, Household Income Distribution) consistently show over 8 million households back in 06/07. Renn claims he got 5.5million (from the H’Hold Income tables, though he won’t say exackly where). He’s badly wrong - just happens to suit the result he’d like to see.  It was actually 8.1 million households in 06/07 and about 8.7 million expected in 2012 (ABS Household Projections)

      Next, he claims the PM is his source of the $25 billion cost. Elsewhere, he morphs this into $25 billion in Carbon tax annually, without checking or giving a checkable source..

      In fact, the Carbon price collects about $8 Billion a year. It takes all three of its life (from 2012 until the ETS kicks in), to get to $25.4 billion.

      Careless with getting either of the important numbers right. Slack in keeping his sources out of sight.

      Result: numbers he didn’t understand, misquoted, giving an answer that seemed to suit him but which basic checks show up as total nonsense. The cost per household looks to be under $1000/year - before any compensation.

      He’s tried it on again here: http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/labors-dilemma-plan-b-is-to-stick-to-plan-a/
      and been pulled up again.  Real numbes full sourced there.

      Time for Renn to say “Sorry, I stuffed up”, seriously.

      And if you want to know your own household costs, suggest go here, where there’s a proper calculator provided.
      https://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/helping-households/household-assistance-estimator/

    • Disraeli says:

      07:42pm | 19/07/11

      Oops. 07/08, not 06/07. No practical difference, but may as well get it right.

    • jb says:

      07:12am | 18/07/11

      Nigel did you write this on your iPhone while you were in the bathroom this morning?
      It reads like someone who couldn’t be bothered doing their homework over the weekend and rushed to just submit anything to keep the teacher happy.
      My old editor would have made me resubmit something like this…

    • JohnB says:

      07:30am | 18/07/11

      The problem is this debate has nothing to do with whether global warming is real or not.

      My belief is it’s real. A tax won’t fix that. It’s a scam. It won’t even put a tiny blip on the entire consumption of fossil fuel. Even if EVERY country followed Gillard, it’d slow it fractionally at best. Are they suggesting we’re going to REDUCE our emissions at the same time as doubling our population both here and globally? Did any pro tax advocates finish year seven maths?

      If politicians were worried about anything re the environment they’d be addressing the issue we dare not address. Horrendous over population. It is THE issue by a trillion miles. It affects everything in the environment in an exponential way, unlike carbon emissions. Once all the fossil fuel is used (absolute max 50 years at current growth in consumption), there is NO MORE to emit, BUT the global population will be so high, there’ll be little left of the vegetation left that locks up carbon. Actually as we run out of fossil fuel imagine a global population of twelve billion scrounging through the bush/forest for fire wood to cook and warm with. Imagine twelve billion trying to feed themselves with no mass agriculture and transport systems to move food. Why are these concepts lost in most people? It’s not that hard. We are collectively a pack of morons being led to disaster by incompetent, corrupt and self interested global and national governments. We’ve got people that are so dumb, they were convinced in five minutes by Gillard in a warm meeting with warm words. They’re all lies. Surely we are smarter than this?

    • Gregg says:

      08:33am | 18/07/11

      @John B
      You can start training now John to like raw, seawater marinated for salted or unsalted and even solar dried meat.
      With forests so denuded, animals will not have much cover and with that gone, there’s always canabilism.
      It’ll not just being the eater rather than the eaten but you’ll need to be able to determine just what you can eat or is it already on the nose.

      Probably a niche market here for a survival course, maybe even a film and they did just have a repeat on of the Wild West.

    • JohnB says:

      08:54am | 18/07/11

      A bit out of the box Gregg but you’re a billion miles ahead of the clowns running the show.

      Is your reply tongue in cheek, suggesting I’m not being realistic? I hope it is because I could give you a hundred credible stats and links to support my argument.

    • Gregg says:

      11:06am | 18/07/11

      @JohnB,
      Yes John, a little tongue there there and I agree the thought of 12 billion of an unstructured society roaming the planet is not one we want to think about, not that thinking of solutions brings too many to bear either.

      It’s a bit like the fruit bats and thoughts that their increasing prevalence is because of all the tucker trees that have been planted for them, possums and even foxes begining to be more rampant in urban areas apparently or at least in countries like Australia that are reasonably affluent for I doubt that there’d be too many qualms about bats, possums and foxes being on the menu in some african areas.

      We keep growing in numbers because of increased food production and look to increase food production because of increasing numbers and whilst the Pope may not help, I also agree that Gillard is far from providing our salvation and there are going to be many international leaders in the same boat for what is the answer to over population other than allowing nature to take its course which we do everything we can to counter because that is the humane thing to do.

      Is it that we either be morons or heartless self centred tough love addicts? and either way anarchy would probably lead us more quickly to whatever the ultimate result is to be.

      Perhaps the next Hopenhagen summit should all be about mass sterilisations and that may be a good taboo for a Punch writer to get an Al Gore reputation on or something Tim the palentologist might be better suited to doing without the taxpayer funding of course.

    • JohnB says:

      11:47am | 18/07/11

      Agree Gregg. There’ll be no talk at Copenhagen re population. The vested interested grubs running countries with company sponsored election campaign dollars will not allow that in the minutes. Nor will the most PC idiots on the planet, the UN, have anything to say. So it’s up to voters to get smart and vote accordingly (not going to happen).

      I don’t get the bit many speak of re inhumane when it comes to population decline. I’m not suggesting genocide. Surely we can put conditions on aid we give to overseas. Here you go, here’s some corn, just as soon as you have this little operation. If every western country made trade embargo’s on third world countries they deal with, it’d go a long way towards what’s needed. Definitely stop any further immigration in to western countries. They are ridiculously full and often take a low environment impact global citizen and turn them in to a massive environment impact global citizen. Doesn’t make sense huh?

      It is a mess and to think it’s not heading towards disaster in our grand kids’ lives is not thinking realistically. Never before have we needed great leadership; it’s ironic we now have the worst leadership in most counties, the world has ever seen.

    • Jason says:

      01:03pm | 18/07/11

      What I find particularly amusing about Julia’s tax is the handouts to everyone with children.  Anyone else think it’s ironic that as part of a package that’s supposed to reduce CO2 emissions there are incentives for people to have more kids?  Just by breathing, an average human generates approx 900 grams of CO2 per day (328.5kg per year).  Add in all the CO2 generated through consumption, and it’s a case of ‘What the..?’ in relation to the handouts.

    • Willie Mac says:

      01:33pm | 18/07/11

      Come on then JohnB, if a tax or ETS isn’t the right way to cut carbon emissions, what is? I’d like to hear your plan. And before you try to fob me off by talking about population, let’s assume the population stays constant, what would you do to decrease carbon emissions?

    • PTom says:

      01:41pm | 18/07/11

      JohnB your missing something.

      One way to reduce the global population birth rate is to raise the standard of living just look at Western countries (include Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea) with lower birth rates.

      The rise in SOL in countries like China and India means that their carbon emission rates will raise to the same as western countries if they use the same energy sources we did to get to our SOL level, we can all sit back think how good we had it years ago.

      We in the Western countries has the ability to reduce our rates of emission while keeping our SOL while countries like China and India raise their SOL while also reducing their increasing rate of emission. This will help both the planet and will lead to lower birth rates as more middle class workers are created.

      I just wish there where charts on the rising SOL per capita compare to carbon emission per capita

    • JohnB says:

      01:46pm | 18/07/11

      Never considered that Jason…Very true.

      Spread the word re population. No one else is….It puzzles me that most people just don’t get it.

    • JohnB says:

      01:57pm | 18/07/11

      Good stuff PTom. I can see holes though. Development is a disease.

      It won’t stop. more and more people living a better life equals disaster.

    • JohnB says:

      02:05pm | 18/07/11

      @Willie Mac…I’m not saying a carbon tax won’t reduce our emissions. It will. It will reduce our emissions over a week a year a decade…BUT over all, it won’t reduce anything…...Over time all the fossil fuels will be gone and that means all the carbon is in the atmosphere with or without a tax. It is a scam!

      As for imagine the population as stable…Couldn’t even entertain it after having looked at the charts for the past three decades. These clowns we vote for are just like all the western country leaders. They are self serving, economy and power driven at our eventual expense. As I’ve said elsewhere on the punch today. Plants make way for people; plants lock carbon EXACTLY the same as fossil fuels do.

    • Brian Taylor says:

      07:31am | 18/07/11

      well written thanks.
      you’re put into words a lot of what people are really thinking.
      is it all a con or not?
      one thing a lot of people are going to be saying is that they DON’T like these so-called experts (smartarses) telling us what to do and when to do it.
      yes sometimes we do make wrong choices, but that’s our right to do so.
      for someone else to tell us what to think is dead set wrong.
      why because they went to uni they’re smarter than the rest of us?
      the experts-vs-garbos prediction study is a case in point.
      I too can predict whats going to happen…vbut do I get the big bucks for my prediction….NO, but a smartarse does. fair? no, but thats always been the way of life and will continue for a long time to come.

    • JohnB says:

      08:37am | 18/07/11

      “so-called experts (smartarses) telling us what to do and when to do it.”

      You know actually if you personally asked the “so-called experts”, they’d tell you YES carbon is a problem. BUT hopefully they’re practical enough to tell you, putting a tax on it won’t reduce it’s consumption and it certainly won’t stop it’s consumption. If we all still use a little bit and you keep increasing our population globally. Global consumption will actually increase. Hmmmm, so it is a scam that has NOTHING to do with the environment.

      “so-called experts” will also tell you the biggest controllable problem is over population. Why aren’t ANY elected rep’s (curiously including the GREENS) addressing this?

    • Joan says:

      07:40am | 18/07/11

      Future long range predictions belong to the soothsayer, and credentials for soothsayer is an imagination, a thick hide, and the mastery of spin so anyone can be soothsayer- a garbo, or economist. Even with facts and figures before them economists world-over didn’t predict GFC- a short range prediction was all that was needed,  obviously their `courage of their convictions` outweighed real facts, 130 economists signed up in support of 1974 Whitlam strategies, looking back it looks more like they were pursuing political courage of convictions rather than facts and figures in interest of effect on Australia

    • Ezpat Ozzie says:

      10:21am | 18/07/11

      You forgot to add the biggest soothsayer’s of all Joan, Priests. “credentials for soothsayer is an imagination, a thick hide, and the mastery of spin” sounds exactly like religion to me.

    • PTom says:

      02:31pm | 18/07/11

      What Liberals supporters forgot their great economist Barnaby Joyce that not only predict the GFC but also told our Government of the day how they where handling it was all wrong.

    • James Ricketson says:

      07:47am | 18/07/11

      Good piece, Nigel, but a pity you included the third and second last playful paragraphs. They diminish the piece and will, no doubt, give rise to lots of irrelevant off-topic comment. But that aside, thoughtful stuff. I remember Ehrlich’s predictions well (that dates me!) and I remember also 4 world famous economists making predictions in TIME magazine about 20 years ago - all of which were wrong. Today we even have a class of people who refer to themselves as ‘futureologlists’ and make money out of telling people what the future holds. Our human desire for answers, even bad answers, explains a lot - from religion to ideology.

    • Tims Financial Planner says:

      07:54am | 18/07/11

      How will Tim Flannery get taxpayers money to cover his “hot rocks” investment, that has thus far been a complete failure, if we are not all taxed more? He deserves to be wealthy, and $180,000 a year for a part time government mouthpiece job just will not cut it. Thinking that there could be anything more important than this is just disgusting and all sceptics and people looking for balance should be ashamed of yourselves. Common sense and non biased science have no place in this argument. Shame on you Erick and co.

    • Anubis says:

      09:19am | 18/07/11

      @ Tim’s Financial Planner - if you can locate non biased science in this whole mess then please highlight it

    • Gregg says:

      09:33am | 18/07/11

      Before Tim goes getting off on his rocks, doing some research/testing on a small scale is possibly al that ought to be done and via a controlled funding or even with a government department rather than an open ended cheque for Tim.

      Sure, you have the likes of New Zealand and Iceland using geothermal heating sources but most of it I suspect so much closer to the surface and in the case of NZ, their source pressure is dropping and that is one of the unknowns re any lets drill down to hot rocks and pump some water in and out.

      There is no real way of controlling ground conditions let alone knowing too much about them when drilling to extreme depths and so the issues of heat transfer, water control and filtration, pipework maintenance etc. all come into play and there are many pilot plants about that never reveal what issues casn occur on full scale, gulf oil wells and NZ mine disasters examples of what can happen.

      It would cost many millions to get holes down and lined and then an earth tremor could undo all that work in an instant just like a Tsnunami with a Nuclear PS, so lets not be too concerned with rushing into financing too many extreme things when after all, we are going to be throwing billions at renewables projects just to create expensive part time energy production.
      Taxes should be getting poured into nuclear energy production based on whatever best current technology is.

    • Ricko says:

      08:01am | 18/07/11

      Actually anyone 40 years or older would probably take you up on that system. One the of things a lot of people don’t realise, is that even the informed climate change skeptics don’t deny CO2 is a greenhouse gas - what they are arguing about is the rate of warming, and whether it is cause JUST by the CO2. They are blaming other phenomena for not believing that changing the CO2 output would make a difference.

    • Gregg says:

      08:09am | 18/07/11

      Well, you took a while longer getting to the point Nigel and given Capitalism is teetering and the overpopulation is continually creeping up on us, not just with famines but civil wars and burning of reports in our own riverland, you could say the score is edging towards 2 out of four and there’ll even be some nerds about to tell a nutter like you that a lot of work went into our salvation from Y2K.

      Aside from all that, it would seem from what you say of our esteemed hygenic recycling managers that Juliar needs to ditch the CSIRO and her other Tim along with any economic reports and listen to the people rather than just feed them garbage, especially if she don’t want crap reported.

      But I do think you miss the point by quite a few generations and that is the many self funded who are not so happy will not be around to have the strips torn of their back and even younger people who want to blindly follow the faith of renewables will in fact be paying for them all with much higher electricity prices and quite possibly electricity that is not on all the time.

      As for solutons, I’d reckon you’re not too far of the mark with
      ” Alternatively, if the climate change turns out to be a false scare, warmists should be subject to significant higher rates of income tax for the rest of their working lives to help pay off the costs incurred implementing carbon-reduction schemes. “
      As for predictions, I’d reckon there’ll be a lot of whinging going on whilst the former self funded will not even roll over in their graves to laugh.

      So yep, my position is that the carbon tax or if you wish a pricing is what it is now being referred to and that’s a taxation structural change and the government have absolutely no idea of where it will all end.

    • KH says:

      08:09am | 18/07/11

      I think humans are responsible for global warming, and there is a problem.  However I can’t see how the ‘carbon tax’ is going to do anything about it.
      Isn’t the goal reduction of emissions?  How is this tax going to do that?  All I see is a circle of unnecessary paperwork:
      1. companies pay a tax for carbon outputs, then pass cost on to consumer
      2. government collects money
      3. government compensates consumers (well, not all of them - just the breeders and some pensioners)
      4. Consumers give money….....back to the companies????

      So it might end as a zero sum game as basically, the companies emitting the crap just get their money back via the consumers compensated with their money in the first place.  All there is is some inconvenient paperwork for these companies - I guess a few extra people to do this paperwork is their only ‘cost’ but they will simply build this into their price increases.  Where is the incentive to emit less crap? 
      The only way this would work is (1) the companies can’t pass the tax on and thus get financially hurt and are forced to reduce emissions if they want to pay less tax, or (2) if consumers see that if they avoid the companies doing the emitting, they will make a profit and the companies won’t get their money back - but how do you ‘avoid’ using, say, electricity?  Some of these companies aren’t directly related to the end products that come from their materials - what, do consumers have to research how ‘AcmeTech’ who makes wiring for say, ‘ABC Electricity’ who then installs it in power stations that burn coal relates to the electricity they consume so they can ‘punish’ them?!!!

      It will be a cold day in hell before I ever cast a vote that might put Tony Abbott in the Lodge, but really, I can’t see the point of this tax.

    • Gregg says:

      08:41am | 18/07/11

      @KH,
      And so what makes you think humans are responsible for global warming is what in essence needs to be addressed.
      Is it because the IPCC says so?
      Have they taken into account just how much heat is in and is continually generated within the earths core, a lot of it in unknown ammounts finding its way through paths of least resistance to the surface or sea/ocean beds?
      Think Krakatoa and rebirth of Son of Kraka and http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageplanet/01volcano/01/indexmid.html for a smaller occurrence.

      But you’re right in that believing the science is in is one thing and then having a politician of a particular ideology saying lets believe the economists is another.
      The media need to report more truthfully on crap is what Juliar should have been saying for her destiny is already determined.

    • JC says:

      09:18am | 18/07/11

      that “cold day in hell” could be sooner than you think—climate change perhaps ???

    • persephone says:

      09:57am | 18/07/11

      KH

      a. To begin with, companies which are smaller omitters than their competitors have a competitive advantage - they can offer their products more cheaply to their customers.

      The laws of economics - indeed, of basic household budgetting - means that they are thus more likely to see their sales increase. This gives them extra money to increase their initial competive advantage by further investment in emissions abatement.

      b. Meanwhile, their competitors will be looking for ways to cut costs, to regain their lost markets. The most obvious course for them to take is to reduce their emissions.

      c. All companies know that the carbon price will be reviewed at set times. If they don’t change their practices, the carbon price they pay will rise. If they do, they win two ways; the carbon price overall is likely to be lower and they personally won’t be paying as much anyway.

      d. Consumers aren’t the aim here; companies are. This is because the industrial use of energy far outweighs that of the ordinary citizen. Of course, any savings consumers make will be welcome, and the price signals sent by some prices rising and others falling will help here.

      e. The ordinary household can’t take direct responsibility for much of their emissions - as you say, electricity is electricity. But the high emittng households - which are also (largely) those not being compensated - do have the means to take quite simple measures to cut their emissions if they wish to reduce their power bills.

      f. The electricity producers will have incentives to change. Firstly, there’s going to be direct competition to them from alternative energies, funded through the carbon price.

      There’s going to be demand from their big users for them to provide electricity more cheaply - and the only way they can do this is by cutting their emissions.

      Some electricity companies - those using hydro, for example - will be given a competitive advantage over those that don’t.

      Electricity companies will also look for ways of offsetting their emissions to avoid paying a higher carbon price - certainly before the last CPRS, several of them had lined up contracts for tree planting, which would have seen tens of thousands of trees being planted.

    • richard says:

      10:01am | 18/07/11

      Gregg
      Since 1979, the size of the summer polar ice cap has shrunk more than 20 percent.
      What affect will this have? Did the IPCC hold a blowtorch to the polar ice cap?
      Tosser.


      http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/qthinice.asp

    • Bob says:

      10:13am | 18/07/11

      @KH - you present a very compelling argument that you cannot see the point to the Carbon Tax, yet you also will not vote for Tony Abbott who opposes the Carbon Tax.

      So what are you going to do - a vote for the greens or labor was a vote for the tax (I say was as unless the independents or a labor MP cross the floor we will have a carbon tax). So for all those who didn’t vote Liberal or National - accept this is what you have brought on yourselfs and the rest of us.

      Maybe next election you may think differently. Vote for the policy and the party not for who the leader is - remember Keating - he did not have a big fan base - but he still won the election because most people did not like Hewson’s explanation of the GST.

      We can’t have it both ways.

    • Gregg says:

      11:20am | 18/07/11

      @Persey
      ” a. To begin with, companies which are smaller omitters than their competitors have a competitive advantage - they can offer their products more cheaply to their customers. “
      The whole basis of your argument is crap for how do you think a company manufacturing the same product using no doubt similar processes might be a smaller ommitter - running around turning off every second light!
      Come on, give us one concrete example.
      And if you reckon it means using green energy then hey!, that green energy is likely to cost more so there goes the advantage for cheaper production.

      You’ve got no real idea of how manufacturing goes Persey and just produce theoretical crap.

    • Gregg says:

      11:27am | 18/07/11

      @Richard,
      ” Gregg
      Since 1979, the size of the summer polar ice cap has shrunk more than 20 percent.
      What affect will this have? Did the IPCC hold a blowtorch to the polar ice cap?
      Tossr.”

      Did not take long for the name callers to enter did it?

      But lets consider the statement on the Ice Cap melt
      20% in 32 years!
      That’s an awful long time eh!, and like just how long has the planet been around for/
      How many natural cycles has the planet been through?
      The last time known to mankind that the Artic Polar Cap was thawing was not all that long ago actually, somewhere about the 1900S when even sailing ships either got through or just about the famed northern passage from the Alantic to the Pacific.

      Yes Richard, there has been melting previously and no doubt likely will be again.

    • KH says:

      11:51am | 18/07/11

      Bob - I don’t care if its a coalition government, I just can’t stand the sight of Tony Abbott.  He is utterly revolting to me on every possible level…......

      For the record - just being against everything is NOT a policy!!! He doesn’t even think there is a problem…..........so I doubt he has anything better - no no, lets just let dirty industries continue ruining the planet. Oh, and if no one else is doing anything, we shouldn’t either…....... stop the boats!  lower taxes!  simplistic statements designed to appeal to simple people.  The man is a moron.  There are plenty of other coalition people who are way better than him.  Hell, Peter Costello would be better than him.

    • Rach says:

      12:45pm | 18/07/11

      e. The ordinary household can’t take direct responsibility for much of their emissions - as you say, electricity is electricity. But the high emittng households - which are also (largely) those not being compensated - do have the means to take quite simple measures to cut their emissions if they wish to reduce their power bills.

      - Sorry Pers, I work for an electricity company and speak to customers all day every day.
      You can bet your sweet bippy it is not households like myself & my husband who work full time (and will be about $500 a year worse off) that have massive bills and usage. Those would be the houses where the occupants are on welfare and home all day with their 6+ children who see nothing wrong with leaving air cons set to 18 on all day in empty rooms, every light in the house on and the spare fridge for beer in a stinking hot shed. THESE are the households who will actually be ‘better off’ (what a rort) and as such have no incentive to change their behaviour.
      Coincidentally, they are also the households who cannot pay their bills because they are two months behind in the rent and have to wait until they get their next advance from Centrelink (!!) to make any payment.
      I don’t believe in ‘human caused’ climate change, the earth’s climate has been changing for billions of years and this Carbon Tax is not going to do anything to change that!

    • Bob says:

      01:02pm | 18/07/11

      @KH - You are blinded by your dislike of Tony Abbott and the part he is playing on behalf of the Opposition.

      Do you really think he and he alone is wrecking the Gillard Government - if you do you show contempt for the intelligence of the voting public. The public are saying 26% support for Labor and 33% approve of Ms Gillards leadership. Abbott is preferred PM (these are the polling facts).

      I too would prefer if the opposition had another leader other than Mr Abbott but thats not up to me.

      The Gillard/Brown Govt has the numbers in the lower and Upper house. They can push any piece of Legislation through - and Ms Gillard can continue to live in the lodge.

      Why have they chosen to have a public debate - suggests to me that the rest of Labor are not convinced (KRudd revisited).

      PS: Do you like Simon Crean - as it looks like he will be our next PM.

    • David says:

      01:12pm | 18/07/11

      Glenn your ice data is bunkum.

      Try http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/ which shows ice cap coverage in June 2011 is at its second lowest recorded.  Lowest was last year.

    • ando says:

      01:43pm | 18/07/11

      Rach,
      I would suggest some poor households have altered their usage some haven’t. Same as rich households.But the richer householders are less likely to be in arrears.
      Apart from working for electricity company do you have information on usage/Income or is this all just made up?I don’t agree with tax but this is “Current Affair” stuff.

    • persephone says:

      02:09pm | 18/07/11

      Gregg

      in the same way that two power generators can produce the same amount of power and one have less emissions than the other - smarter technology.

      Some companies take responsibility for providing their own green power at present - for example, the VISY operations Abbott refers to, and our local timber mill, which now generates its power from timber offcuts.

      Both will now have a competitive advantage.

      Rach

      sorry, but anecdotal evidence doesn’t stack up against facts. The fact is that higher income households tend to be higher energy users.

      They tend to live in bigger houses, for starters, which means that they have larger areas to heat/cool, which is where most of the usage occurs.

      http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/4602.2Media Release1Oct 2009?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=4602.2&issue=Oct 2009#=&view;=

      ‘....high income households were also more likely to have an air conditioner, a clothes dryer, a dishwasher and more televisions than low income households. Use of these appliances was also more frequent for high income households.’

    • Gezz says:

      02:35pm | 18/07/11

      A study finds hardcore environmentalists and Climate Change sceptics use the same amount of energy and water.

      The Weekend Australian reports on page 6 that a study of 1400 Melburnians by Professor Peter Newton of Swinburne University found that beliefs in climate change meant little in practice, with hardcore environmentalists and climate change sceptics in his study using the same amount of energy and water.

    • Gregg says:

      11:10pm | 18/07/11

      @Persey,
      ” Gregg

      in the same way that two power generators can produce the same amount of power and one have less emissions than the other - smarter technology.

      Some companies take responsibility for providing their own green power at present - for example, the VISY operations Abbott refers to, and our local timber mill, which now generates its power from timber offcuts.

      Both will now have a competitive advantage.”
      Mate, you need to be looking at some chemistry and thermodynamics and as for generating power from timber offcuts, a company may reckon it could provide them with some cheap power if there was a huge cost to otherwise disposing of offcuts and you would need heaps of them.
      In case you didn’t know, coal is actually timber and other plant matter that has rotted and been compressed for a few thousand centuries, the calorific value of it probably far in excess of timber and whatever its and timbers values, its a case of you need so many calories for power and CO2 generated.
      Not familiar with what Visy may have but if it’s renewable it’ll generate power at a much higher cost than coal fired power stations so the cost efficiency is out the window.
      Likewise with any other fuels, ie gas is a more expensive form of power generation than coal and all coal stations will be somewhat similar and tha ability to pick and choose which power station provides power will be limited.
      You are really talking about that which you do not know about.

    • Paddy says:

      08:19am | 18/07/11

      I love the fact that Gillard and Swan have commited to pay $599million to a UN Fund and are telling the UN they have spent money via aid to Pacific Islands already.
      Where was this in the budget?
      What other little expenditures have they neglected to mention?

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      08:34am | 18/07/11

      What will be will be. Tony Abbott’s direct action plan caters for both sides of the debate which is to work towards a clean environment and keeping it clean.

      I see Gillard’s $25m propaganda ads supposedly explaining to us how the carbon tax works is more like prompting Tony Abbott’s direct action plan.

      Thanks to the confused and muddled Julia. The polls must be really getting to her. “Achieve by the polls die by the polls”

    • concerned says:

      09:45am | 18/07/11

      As Howard said yesterday moving ahead of the rest of the world with a carbon tax/ETS, especially now is crazy for Australia.
      Direct Action is the safer option in this economic climate.

    • persephone says:

      10:28am | 18/07/11

      Direct Action looks like costing four times as much as the Coalition has costed. All of these costs will be borne by the taxpayer, with no compensation.

      It’s simply doing what’s already being done - and which isn’t working - on a larger scale.

      The carbon price will allow the shifting of the burden of climate change action from the taxpayer, which is one of the reasons why it’s lowering taxation.

      At the moment, governments at every level - local, state, federal - are involved in hundreds of ‘Direct Action’ type projects.

      This means you’re already paying for them through higher rates, taxes and charges.

      And they’re proven to be far less effective than carbon pricing in delivering the desired outcome - a drop in emissions - as well as far more expensive.

      concerned

      and Howard said in 2007 that we should move ahead of the rest of the world because that would give us a competitive advantage.

    • Luke4 says:

      11:23am | 18/07/11

      persephone - then you also know Hoard said pre Copenhagen it was expected that the rest of the world would move in that direction. Since the failure at Copenhagen and other things like the GFC the world is a different place. And it no longer looks like the world is heading in that direction any time soon, and it would be crazy for Australia to introduce a carbon tax or ETS now..

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      12:12pm | 18/07/11

      Dear persetelephone,

      I already welcomed you back earlier in another thread. I really want to help you because I am sick and tired of this carbon tax stuff.

      As ‘concerned’ said direct action is the way to go in this economic climate because flexibility is warranted for all the uncertainties in the future and in case the scientists and economists have missed something. What Gillard and others, like Malcolm Turnbull, John Hewson etc are now promoting is 4 years too late. As Howard said he agreed with it then but since global circumstances have changed, direct action is better for Australia because of its flexibility to change, improve or scrap if needed. I also like it because I can see how my money is being spent and the certainty of my children and grandchildren inheriting a cleaner environment.

      Funds for direct action is capped, will come out of the budget and will cost the taxpayer close to $3b. We all care about the environment and so don’t mind paying for it.

      Direct action is part of Gillard’s carbon tax package and thus the TV ads that are showing at the moment. Like you say the ads are telling us what is already being done and Tony Abbott’s direct action will improve and make sustainable on a larger scale what we see in those ads for the production of cleaner greener energy.

      Personally I loathe punishing what you guys have disrespectfully called the ‘big polluters’ as I see them to be companies doing the people a service and employers of a lot of people.

      Below is what I wrote in another thread. I sincerely hope it does help you understand because I think it is time to move on. There are more important issues the Govt should be focusing on instead of using all their energies playing right into Tony Abbott’s hands. Tony Abbott and the Coalition are the only ones enjoying this, it must be excruciating for Gillard and her Labor MPs.

      Each to their own, smart skeptics, smart scientists, smart economists, smart journalists all are now just having “intellectual wanks” because at the end of the day it is all about Julia Gillard and the people she represents.

      Julia Gillard highly qualified, blessed with the gift of the gab, lacks common sense and wisdom, a liar in defiance who refuses to listen to the people. This is why what Tony Abbott says; “no tax collection before an election” is music to our ears.

    • persephone says:

      01:46pm | 18/07/11

      Luke

      so you’re saying that Howard would have changed his mind, and broken his promise, when he found himself in changed circumstances.

      Which is exactly what Gillard did, so I’m glad you’re OK with that.

      Rosie

      you welcomed me back in another thread?? I haven’t posted anywhere else for a fortnight, so it must have been an imposter.

      Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, of course!!

      But thanks for the welcome, even if it went to the wrong person!

      Please note: I said that the latest costings show that ‘Direct Action’ will cost up to four times more than the Coalition have allowed - so that’s $12 billion, not $ 3.

      Which makes it far more expensive, which ever way you cut it, than the government’s proposal.

      And I agree, Direct Action is part of the government’s policy, just as DA is what’s basically happening at the moment. Which shows that we need more than DA if we’re going to make any kind of impact.

      Remember: the aim of DA and of carbon pricing is exactly the same. The differences are that one is purely funded from tax and the other uses market forces; one doesn’t have any support from economists and the other does.

      I’ve frequently said here that one of the things we do need to recognise is that the ‘big polluters’ are us, so no disagreement there. However, the companies which need the incentive to change are the ones who provide us with electricity etc - because that helps you and me reduce our emissions as well, far more effectively than individual actions can do.

      As for the ‘liar’ claim, you seem to be relying on Tony Abbott lying as well. You don’t seem to expect him to honour his commitment to the 5% reduction by 2020.

      You’re allowing him the flexibility to change his mind due to changing circumstances whilst denying that to Gillard.

    • persephone says:

      01:48pm | 18/07/11

      Sorry, Rosie, found your welcome!! Thank you!

    • Luke4 says:

      02:01pm | 18/07/11

      Persephone says -
      “Luke
      so you’re saying that Howard would have changed his mind, and broken his promise, when he found himself in changed circumstances.
      Which is exactly what Gillard did, so I’m glad you’re OK with that.”

      I don’t know what Howard would have done. That’s a question for Howard.
      I was adding what you conveniently left out regarding what he said earlier.

    • persephone says:

      02:14pm | 18/07/11

      Luke

      before the 2007 election, Howard said that he would commit to an ETS regardless of how the rest of the world acted.

      He is now saying that, in the light of Copenhagen, he would not have honoured this commitment.

      I cannot see how this is any different to Gillard saying she would not commit to a carbon tax and then agreeing to a carbon price when confronted with a hung Parliament.

      Both have made it clear that they’ve changed their minds on the course of action they committed to becasue circumstances changed in ways neither of them could predict.

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      02:38pm | 18/07/11

      Persetelephone

      Good to know we have some of the things sorted out, some we agree on and the rest we will just have to agree to disagree.

      Sorry but I was one of those people that never had to rely on Tony Abbott or anyone else for that matter to not respect and trust Julia Gillard. I watched Julia Gillard take the first steps of knifing Kevin Rudd till she was sworn in as the first female PM of this beloved land of ours. Respect and trust for a sitting PM was lost the same time she was sworn in and it made me feel sad. I knew there and then her life wouldn’t be easy for her and what she had done will one day come back and bite her. The promise during the election campaign, the minority govt, the lie and now the 26% in Primary votes are all the happenings that have come back to bite her. I didn’t need Tony Abbott, the media or anyone else to tell me.

      I believe in fate and Tony Abbott was not meant to take over from Gillard after the 2010 Elections. I believe Tony Abbott is a decent man and if he is scaremongering now it is because he is fighting for the people to rid of a bad Govt lead by Julia Gillard. In time Tony Abbott will have to prove to the people he can lead this nation out of the mess this Govt has put us into with policies etc. I believe he can and will do it. My worry now is Labor being walloped to the extent they become a powerless opposition. The people deserve a good political balance so Tony Abbott and the Coalition are kept on their toes while in Govt.

      I say again it is Julia Gillard herself that is killing the carbon tax and nothing or anyone else but herself that is responsible for her poor ratings, not the carbon tax.

    • Glenn says:

      04:26pm | 18/07/11

      @persephone : - you say that Howard changed his mind so that makes it OK for Gillard to change hers.

      I say yes - a PM or for that matter anyone has the right to change their mind - likewise the electorate has the right to change their mind and that is what they are doing now.

      I wonder what sportsbet are offering for the Labor vote to drop below the Greens - that might be a good punt!

    • Joan says:

      07:42pm | 18/07/11

      @ Rosie

      We already have a “good political balance”. It doesn’t get any better balanced than a hung parliament.

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      09:48pm | 18/07/11

      False Joan/The Badger The Harass

      I meant ‘political balance’ after your failing hero Gillard decides to hold elections. Labor’s primary vote @ 26% they will end up with only 30 seats in the house of Reps, very unbalanced and powerless and the nation needs a strong opposition.

      Get back to your hole and stop playing your duplicity harassing game you Goof head!

    • Joan says:

      12:04am | 19/07/11

      @ Rosie

      If you expect anyone to believe that you’re interested in “a good political balance”, then you’ll have to claim that you couldn’t be happier than with our current situation. It doesn’t get any better balanced than a hung parliament.

    • Jay says:

      08:48am | 18/07/11

      Over population is the biggest issue facing the world. Whilst water covers 75% of our planet only 3% is fresh water.Sceintists are now trying to develop GM foods which does not fill me with confidence. Reduce the population and you will reduce emissions etc etc.No Govt has the courage to take this issue on.

    • James O says:

      09:01am | 18/07/11

      Climate change happens it always has happened with or without humanity,
      The question is whether the planet is warming or cooling, either way drought and shortage of land to grow food crops will be decisive in whether it will be possible to feed the ever increasing world population or not.
      Theres not much talk about this coming dilemma the carbon tax is a distraction.

    • Glen says:

      09:29am | 18/07/11

      What Gore, Ehrlich et al and an army of ANU style socialist economists can never fathom is that the market solves all these problems. Communists keep droning on about food security (not to mention carbon)... my question is what farmer would pass up such a market? I am sure you will eat GMFs if you are hungry. So if things like this ever did happen, I will eat my hat (literally I suppose). IS NEVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN thanks to Milton Friedman’s FREE HAND!

    • Dave Sag says:

      09:41am | 18/07/11

      Two small points.

      1) Y2K turned out to be a non-event because the world spent trillions of dollars fixing the problem before 2000 struck. — the analogy to climate change is pretty clear to me.  There is a massive issue and we may be in time to solve it.

      2) In the 1970s there was (and in mary parts of the world there still is) widespread famine.  The ‘limits to growth’ argument is still quite sound, sustaining infinite growth on a planet with finite resources is impossible.  That’s hardly a controversial idea these days.

      3) Just because ‘they were wrong before’ doesn’t mean ‘they are still wrong’.  Go read The Black Swan by Taleb for some interesting discussions on this — My favourite is his example that, for a turkey who has been treated well, cared for, fed, groomed and sheltered its whole life, Thanksgiving (or let’s say Christmas down under) is simply not something factored into its world-view.

      I sincerely hope that global warming and the idea that human activity is driving that warming, and consequent climate change (and ocean acidification) turns out, against all evidence, to be wrong; but, seriously, what’s the down-side to a clean energy future, hundreds of thousands of new jobs in the clean-tech sector, and huge reductions in waste and improvements in energy efficiency?

    • Gregg says:

      11:46am | 18/07/11

      @Dave Sag
      ” but, seriously, what’s the down-side to a clean energy future, hundreds of thousands of new jobs in the clean-tech sector, and huge reductions in waste and improvements in energy efficiency? “

      If there is such a thing as a clean energy future, it needs to be global Dave and the ability of Australia to attrmpt influencing that without a down side is non existent.
      Where are those hundreds of thousands of new jobs going to be when we will probably be importing all the clean energy components because they can be produced far cheaper in China, India or wherever?
      Installations - once off!
      And where does the money come from for installations?

      And the energy efficiency! - oh yeah and how is that?
      You mean we will be using far less because there is far less available only to those who can afford it do you?

      And what is the huge reductions in waste for all the components have to be manufactured with much packaging for prevention of transport damage.
      There are new transmission networks needed for wind power and industrial solar power installations.

      Talking more on efficiency, do you know anything on how a major base load power station should be run for best efficiency?
      Well it is flat out, ups and downs minimised for all they do is cause operational issues like premature plant failures because of loading variation fatique on highly stressed componentry - turbine blading for instance and very expensive and much plant down time to repair.
      And that is what will happen if the supposed climate/economic/government gurus keep the fiddling going too much and you have base load power stations varying load because the wind is blowing or the sun is shining.

      And then when neither is happening and the plant is down, what will you be suggesting to the people attempting to keep warm in winter then if they have restricted power and no other form of heating.

      Dave, if you have no idea of how the power industry plant should be operated, go and learn about it.

    • Dan says:

      09:47am | 18/07/11

      ” ye shall pay for your beliefs “

      That is the problem of the debate.
      It is all about how much it will cost, and not how much it will save.
      There is no mention of how carbon reduction will happen, just a hope that it will.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      10:06am | 18/07/11

      I’M ready to ‘do my part’ when the Chinese stop burning tyres to make power. when India and Pakistan introduce population control to enable them to be self sustainable, when two stroke motors are banned world wide and when Chile and Indonesia stop letting off volcanos.

      What about Egypt doing something? Like how about replanting the Sahara forest?

      I would listen and act if Jesus came back and ordered me around,  but Julia?

      Like the saying ‘You can fool some of the people ..... etc. etc.

    • Warwick says:

      10:09am | 18/07/11

      The folk who scream about overpopulation are flogging a dead horse. In the developed countries the populations are decreasing. Italy, Britain, Greece, Holland, Germany, Russia even. And China, of course, has its one-child policy. In Africa and the Muslim countries the populations are increasing, and in many parts of Europe, while the indigenous populations are decreasing rapidly the Muslim populations are increasing rapidly. The rate of increase in total population in Australia is mostly a result of the shifting of population from other places; it doesn’t have any real significance in relation to world population.

      Further, world population is not a very useful concept, just like global mean temperature is not a very useful concept. Israel, being a dynamic, democratic, technologically advanced state can support many millions, in considerable prosperity, on its tiny area. Places like Ethiopia, being backward and misgoverned, are constantly seeing their people die of starvation.

      Raising education and prosperity not only does away with starvation in the short term, it results in low or no population growth, as educated and prosperous women decide not to have large families.

      But simply banging on about World Overpopulation is not very bright.

      Mark Steyn, in his book, America Alone, has very well-informed and insightful things to say on the subject.

    • Gregg says:

      11:58am | 18/07/11

      @Warwick,
      ” Raising education and prosperity not only does away with starvation in the short term, it results in low or no population growth, as educated and prosperous women decide not to have large families. “
      Whether it be, Muslim, Ethiopa, Africa or somewhere else it may not just be the women who are making decisions re procreation.

      There might even be a lot of places where a few blokes with nothing else to do but to kick some dust about or chew on their favourite natural nut or smoking something might just reckon next best thing to do is to look for a woman.
      And you might even find that what appear to be reasonably bright people, whether resettled in Australia, in Pakistan or in an African refugee camp have a propensity to that procreation urge.

      Did Mark have a solution? or just hope to make some good money from the book.

    • Steve says:

      01:02pm | 18/07/11

      I wonder how Ethopia would go if they received the same aid from the US as Israel. How would Israel go if they received the same amount of aid as Ethiopia

      Israel is the largest beneficiary of aid from the USA. Roughly $3 billion per year which is 20% of the total US aid budget. As significant as this figure is it is small change compared to the private donations from overseas that support Israeli institutions. About 70% of total donations to Israeli charitable foundations come from overseas.


      Warwick I am not interested in debating you on the merits of Israel versus the muslim hoards other than to remind you that much of the success of the state of Israel is not from within.

    • MattyB says:

      02:54pm | 18/07/11

      Warwick, simply implementing a “one child policy” does not reduce population, it only slows it. If births are greater than deaths (which they are in most/many countries), the population is still growing.

      To try and claim that the population is not growing shows how “not very bright” your claims are. They are clearly ill-informed and ignorant.

    • Steve says:

      04:52pm | 18/07/11

      MattyB. When a couple have one child that little family goes from 2 to 3 and yes the population has increased.

      However mum and dad will die leaving the one Child and the population decreases. two people produce 1 offspring. Over time the population decreases but you don’t see it until the parents have passed on.

      In any case it is estimated that china’s population is 300 million lower today because of the one child policy.

    • persephone says:

      10:21am | 18/07/11

      Paddy

      sorry to reply down here, but for some reason I couldn’t reply directly to your comment.

      The money you’re talking about is foreign aid. You will find it in the foreign aid section of the budget.

      As to other expenditures they haven’t told you about, this isn’t actually possible. Governments can’t just dip into Treasury when the fancy takes them; they don’t have slush funds.

      All expenditure has to be approved, and Treasury won’t write the cheques unless it has been.

    • Lance Derk says:

      10:23am | 18/07/11

      I don’t care about both sides of the debate because more than 75% of this country wants NO carbon tax. The Gillard government needs to listen to the people! I voted for Gilard based on her promise of NO carbon tax and I don’t want to be taken for a fool!

      Some of the Labor dopehead supporters like Seano, Unionist, The Badger, etc are championing the minority view point and that is why they get picked on time and time again! Nobody wants the ALP doing the Greens job, get it boys? Less than 12% voted for the Greens and their loony policies!

      If you think the carbon tax will solve climate change or is the 1st step in doing so than there is some swamp land in Florida I’d love to sell you guys!

      All the carbon tax will do is re-distribute wealth and screw the hard working Australian!

      Oh and Seano if you want to know why people are getting violent and aggressive about this remember more than 75% of us said NO to the carbon tax!

      Have you seen today’s poll results mate?

      I’m angry and I hope others keep on promoting their anger for the carbon tax, we have to defeat this great wrong!

      NO carbon tax!

    • un-PC says:

      10:46am | 18/07/11

      “...I don’t want to be taken for a fool!”

      That ship sailed the second you voted for Labor.

    • Seano says:

      02:29pm | 18/07/11

      Dear low-life troll,

      Learn to accept that we live in a democracy.

      Realise that anyone who threatens the life and liberty of another Australian merely because they have a different opinion on government policy is a a low-life who should move to a right-wing dictatorship immediately.

      I believe are still a number of right wing dictatorships for you to chose from in the world. Democracy, love it or leave.

      Oh…and captain sock puppet….

      Seek Help!.

    • Gregg says:

      02:59pm | 18/07/11

      Lance
      Did I miss a vote on the carbon tax?
      If I didn’t, how do you know 75% oppose the carbon tax?
      You may be a bit slow, but surely you understand we have the government we elected doing what’s best for the country.
      If you don’t like it, vote for someone else next election.

    • Seano says:

      03:28pm | 18/07/11

      Exactly right Gregg.

      We assess a government’s performance and vote accordingly at elections. That’s what mature, sensible. decent Australians do.

      We don’t threaten violent over throw of a democratically elected government, not even in jest. That’s what low-life’s do.

    • Against the Man says:

      05:14pm | 18/07/11

      Is Gregg Seano’s sock puppet? Bacause by Seano’s own definition that is what you are Gregg.

      Lance keep up the anger, the polls today clearly show Gilltard and the carbon tax are not wanted!

      The minority losers want to deny it but that is what makes it so much fun! Is the Earth also flat guys? smile

      And watching Seano piss his pants over the potential ‘overthrow’ of the government by ‘imaginary’ forces clearly shows us the level of sanity we have in this fine outstanding individual who is a teacher to students in some school in this great country (that Labor is ruining) !

      http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/More-pain-Labor-latest-poll-abc-2171365745.html

      Ok….cue Seano’s predictable and insane replies….......do you see dead people too Seano? smile

    • cc says:

      05:41pm | 18/07/11

      Against the Man must be the funniest commenter on the Punch.
      Seano,  Amused at your AtM sockpuppet accusation,  back upaways.  .........  But not so.  Not a sockpuppet.  Not I.
      And don’t come after me with another of your Head Prefect reprimands.


      response unwelcome

    • Seano says:

      06:17pm | 18/07/11

      @AtM

      Gregg is a regular conservative commentator, I doubt we’ve ever agreed on anything before.

      Trolling, insanity and sockpuppets are your domain. Nice try.

      As for the issue at hand, I don’t debate trolls.

      Seek Help!

      @cc - A troll defending a troll. I’m sure you think that’s clever.

    • Ian1 says:

      06:22pm | 18/07/11

      Ahh Seano….

      we don’t elect governments on election platforms they back-flip on as soon as they negotiate power.

      The current lot were elected on a no carbon tax platform, ergo their mandate is dependent on them NOT introducing a Carbon Tax.

      Of which of their broken promises do you actually support?

    • Seano says:

      08:04pm | 18/07/11

      @Ian1 - we did not elect the current government on one issue.

      I have at no stage claimed a mandate. I’ve claimed that sometimes tough decisions need to be taken and if we were to run government on a populist basis nothing would ever get done. The mess in Greece is an example of government by populism.

      I’ve also claimed that threatening the life and liberty of fellow Australians because you disagree with a government policy is that act of a low-life who clearly does not respect our democracy.

    • The real Gregg says:

      09:40pm | 18/07/11

      @ATM and for Seano and Gregg the Socket Puppett
      ” Is Gregg Seano’s sock puppet? Bacause by Seano’s own definition that is what you are Gregg.”

      Just so you all know, another Gregg has floated in and I would have thought they would have noticed a real Gregg or maybe they just want to be mischievous.

    • Seano says:

      11:12pm | 18/07/11

      @The real Gregg

      Fair enough.

      I was surprised you agreed with me, although only a little. I can’t imagine any sensible person advocating violent aggression as way of challenging government policy in a free western democracy.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:29am | 18/07/11

      Just to put into perspective what the experts say, from EA CRU emails:

      Kevin Trenberth wrote:
      >>> Hi all
      >>> Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming?  We
      >>> are asking that here in Boulder where we have broken records the past
      >>> two days for the coldest days on record.  We had 4 inches of snow. 
      >>> The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal is 69F, and it
      >>> smashed the previous records for these days by 10F.  The low was
      >>> about 18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low. 
      >>> This is January weather (see the Rockies baseball playoff game was
      >>> canceled on saturday and then played last night in below freezing
      >>> weather).
      >>>
      >>> Trenberth, K. E., 2009: An imperative for climate change planning:
      >>> tracking Earth’s global energy. /Current Opinion in Environmental
      >>> Sustainability/, *1*, 19-27, doi:10.1016/j.cosust.2009.06.001. [PDF]
      >>> <http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/Trenberth/trenberth.papers/EnergyDiagnostics09final.pdf>
      >>> (A PDF of the published version can be obtained from the author.)
      >>>
      >>> The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the
      >>> moment and it is a travesty that we can’t.  The CERES data published
      >>> in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even
      >>> more warming: but the data are surely wrong.  Our observing system is
      >>> inadequate

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      10:52am | 18/07/11

      I don’t like a lot of the comments I read here.

      Obviously there are the nutters, the idiots and the retards.

      There the extremests, the gullible and those with hidden agendas.

      But here and there up pops some wisdom. Thank to those contributors.

      All the world be strange ‘cept thee and me, but sometimes I wonder of thee.

    • stockinbingal roo says:

      11:28am | 18/07/11

      Good one Aussie Wazza, you’d think that the punch and it’s contributors would get sick of writing the same thing over and over, can we talk about something else?: What is the best overseas aid?; Are we losing our australian identity?...

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:33pm | 18/07/11

      @ Aussie Wazza- “Obviously there are the nutters, the idiots and the retards.
      There the extremests, the gullible and those with hidden agendas.”
      Yeah, but if we kick out the Liberal fanboys and fangirls, there would be no one left.

    • martin says:

      11:00am | 18/07/11

      if the govt wants to get tough and crack down and make a difference (insert own catch phrase) and help pollution PROPERLY, how about a world wide ban on coal exports ?

    • Glenn says:

      11:03am | 18/07/11

      Sorry CSIRO - looks like Alan Jones was right.

      According to the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre in Colorado, Arctic summer sea ice has increased by 409,000 square miles, or 26 per cent, since 2007 – and even the most committed global warming activists do not dispute this.

      The scientists’ predictions also undermine the standard climate computer models, which assert that the warming of the Earth since 1900 has been driven solely by man-made greenhouse gas emissions and will continue as long as carbon dioxide levels rise.
      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1242011/DAVID-ROSE-The-mini-ice-age-starts-here.html#ixzz1SPjMJQ7o

    • Sony B Goode says:

      11:11am | 18/07/11

      fascinating behind the scenes input from WWF Australia into the climate science, from EA CRU emails:

      From: Adam ZZZZ <Adam.ZZZZ @ WWFUS.ORG>
      To: m.hulme @ ZZZ.uea.ac.uk, n.sheard @ ZZZ.uea.ac.uk
      Subject: WWF Australia
      Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:43:09 -0400
      Cc: mrae @ ZZZ.wwf.org.au

      Hi Mike,

      I’m sure you will get some comments direct from Mike Rae in WWF
      Australia, but I wanted to pass on the gist of what they’ve said to me so
      far.

      They are worried that this may present a slightly more conservative
      approach to the risks than they are hearing from CSIRO. In particular,
      they would like to see the section on variability and extreme events
      beefed up if possible. They regard an increased likelihood of even 50%
      of drought or extreme weather as a significant risk. Drought is also a
      particularly importnat issue for Australia, as are tropical storms.

      I guess the bottom line is that if they are going to go with a big public
      splash on this they need something that will get good support from
      CSIRO scientists (who will certainly be asked to comment by the press).
      One paper they referred me to, which you probably know well is:
      “The Question of Significance” by Barrie in Nature Vol 397, 25 Feb 1999,
      p 657

      Let me know what you think. Adam

    • whysofoolish says:

      11:12am | 18/07/11

      Is it just me or are all the former predictions being analogised to climate change purely speculation, and not based on science, or based at best on rudimentary science?  Its apples and oranges.  You cant compare it to say, the vietnam war or communism, as if the possible consequences were\could possibly be chartered scientifically.  The weather is cyclical, completely international and governed by none, and works in patterns with a backlog of data ranging millions of years, none of which can be said for politics or anything you are comparing it to.  Give me back the straws, clutcher.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      11:16am | 18/07/11

      Another interesting excerpt from CRU emails:

      Dear Mike,

      .....

      I should perhaps explain my delicate position in all this. As a retired
      CSIRO person I have somewhat more independence than before, and perhaps
      a reduced sense of vested interest in CSIRO, but I am still closely in
      touch and supportive of what CAR is doing. Also, I have a son who is now
      a leading staff member of WWF in Australia and who is naturally well
      informed on climate change issues. Moreover, Michael Rae, who is their
      local climate change staffer, is a member of the CSIRO sector advisory
      committee (along with some industry people as well) and well known to
      me. So I anticipated questions from WWF Australia, and from the media
      later when the scenarios are released, regarding the scenarios. I did
      not want to be in the position of feeling the need to seriously question
      in public their presentation or interpretation. You have allayed my
      fears on that score, so that is great.

      Roger may still follow up with some more detailed comments he is
      collating from people in CAR.

      Best regards,

      Barrie.

    • bruce says:

      11:18am | 18/07/11

      The carbon tax is designed to provide incentive for people and corporations to change behaviour. If company XYZ gets taxed, and passes some of this in to consumers, then the tax is working the way is is supposed to. If companies and to a lesser extent consumers change behaviour as a result of the tax, then it is working.

      There is no possibility that carbon emissions can be reduced without changes to human behaviour; clearly this is going to cost money. I have no doubt that a lot of people voted Kevin Rudd in as Prime Minister while they were high on the concept of saving the planet… yet have recently changed their mind when they found out they would actually have to pay.

    • Glenn says:

      11:43am | 18/07/11

      @bruce - whilst yes money does play a big part in peoples decisions, however since 2007 (Kevin 07) the following fundamentals have changed
      (1) According to the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre in Colorado, Arctic summer sea ice has increased by 409,000 square miles, or 26 per cent, since 2007 – and even the most committed global warming activists do not dispute this.(see my reply above for the link - starts - SORRY CSIRO - Alan Jones was right)

      (2) The GFC had not hit so we were all blissfully ignorant of our false paper valued wealth.

      Yes we want to save the planet, but we want to do it correctly, and not via some rushed policy.

    • persephone says:

      02:42pm | 18/07/11

      Glenn

      so how do you explain this?

      http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

      ‘July 6, 2011
      Sea ice enters critical period of melt season
      Arctic sea ice extent for June 2011 was the second lowest in the satellite data record since 1979, continuing the trend of declining summer ice cover. Average ice extent fell below that for June 2007, which had the lowest minimum ice extent at the end of summer. However, ice extent this year was greater than in June 2010. The sea ice has entered a critical period of the melt season: weather over the next few weeks will determine whether the Arctic sea ice cover will again approach record lows’

      And you can scarcely call something that’s been agonised over by both sides of politics since at least 2006 rushed!!

    • Glenn says:

      04:09pm | 18/07/11

      @persephone : Wow conflicting data what a surprise. Can you imagine that. Oh what a conundrum! What shall we do? Oh Panic lets rush this TAX through- we must save the planet.

      The only agony felt on either side of Parliment over the past 6 years is the agony felt by the vast majority of MP’s on both sides who believe it to be CRAP. (yes the stuff Gillard wants the papers to stop printing).

      Yes we want to “save the planet” so if this is so good for Australia, and Labor and President Bob control both the lower and upper house, why don’t they just do it - and prove to Australia that Abbott is a fool.

      You know why - because they are not convinced.

      Hopefully Simon Crean will pick up the pieces before the next election.

    • Steve says:

      04:26pm | 18/07/11

      Pers. It is explained by the fact that the Earth is warming. In fact since the last ice age there has been so much ice melt that the oceans have risen by 120 metres. The ice will continue to melt and the oceans will continue to rise until the next ice age.

    • persephone says:

      05:03pm | 18/07/11

      Glenn

      there isn’t conflicting data.

      And the legislation will go through parliament - so far everything’s going according to the timeline originally set out in February.

      In the unlikely event Simon became PM, he wouldn’t roll back the legislation. His history shows that he’s a progressive.

    • Ian1 says:

      11:29am | 18/07/11

      The debate has been won, the Carbon Tax should be panned.  The mandate is for no carbon tax, that’s how the government were elected.  The resounding majority are against the introduction of the economy wide tax, and an opposition likely to romp it in at the next election have committed to revoking it if it is actually introduced.  There are so few Labor supporters left who think this tax is a good idea, that they risk splintering their party along green-alliance lines.  Why oh why are Swan and Gillard continuing to waste our tax-payer dollars on promoting this sham?  Shouldn’t the focus be on the people who are dying in ambulances waiting for an emergency department hospital bed to become available??

    • Bob says:

      11:55am | 18/07/11

      @Ian1 - Simple answer because Labor have overpromised on spending and this is the only way to get the budget back to surplus.

    • persephone says:

      06:04pm | 18/07/11

      Bob

      given that the climate change packet takes money away from the budget, rather than putting money into it, that’s a very silly statement.

      A surplus would be achieved faster without a carbon price.

    • Shane says:

      07:49pm | 18/07/11

      @Iani

      I couldn’t care less who wins elections. The important thing is that we will have an ETS.

    • Ian1 says:

      06:53am | 19/07/11

      @Shane -

      The important thing is only to introduce an ETS when the entire world agrees on a framework.  Acting independent of a global agreement is folly, and our political leaders should know better than to destroy our export industry.

    • Shane says:

      09:05am | 19/07/11

      @Iani

      That’s a relief. Only when we have world peace then, and not a moment before, will I stop beating my wife.

    • Ian1 says:

      10:26am | 19/07/11

      @Shane - your last post demonstrates the disgraceful tact common of Labor supporters.

      Here we have a serious issue, likely to damage our economic competitiveness, and you go on to suggest that by waiting for a global agreement which would not disadvantage us unnecessarily, we act like spousal abusers?  Not funny Jan.

      Grow up and debate like a man.

    • Shane says:

      11:22am | 19/07/11

      @ Iani

      Oh, poor sook. I wasn’t being funny; just accurate. I voted for John Howard’s ETS, by the way, and I couldn’t care less who delivers it.

    • Pleb says:

      11:30am | 18/07/11

      The boy has cried wolf far too many times that the villagers no longer believe him.

    • Derryne says:

      11:45am | 18/07/11

      Nice idea.  Although somewhat paradoxical.  A government policy that penalises the very human act of developing an idea, holding values and voicing an opinion.  What was that? I’m sorry Nigel, were you expressing an opinion also? Naughty boy.

      Nigel, would you agree to a policy that would apply a lifelong tax on your income just for having an idea that was not entirely correct? 

      Nigel, has there every been a policy in the history of politics that was entirely correct or entirely incorrect?

      Nigel, are you implying that any of the other examples you gave (Malthusianism, capitalism, Y2K) were in any way similar to the climate change scenario? A scenario based on the widest scientific consensus ever reached which suggests fast action on climate change is necessary to avoid significant environmental consequences?

      Nigel, are you so worried about paying $16 more per year than you would have otherwise and are so mortally offended by this that you’d rather put a curse on all those who don’t agree with you?

      Let’s all just stop thinking independently. Better just to let the media tell us what to think anyway.

      I’ll tell you what Nigel, let’s meet up, I’ll pay you the $16 you’ll incur in extra costs in 2012/13 and we’ll sign a contract for me to reimburse your ongoing carbon tax costs. Then you’ll never have to be an angry little boy ever again.

    • MattyB says:

      03:10pm | 18/07/11

      Derryne, I’ll take one of those contracts. smile

      By my research the average wholesale price of electricity is $35/MWh.

      A carbon tax of $23/tonne equate to about $15-$25/MWh extra for gas and coal (depending on how efficient your plant is), and is meant to equalise the cost of fossil fuel power to renewables, which is $50-$70/MWh (over useful life of generation plant).

      So basically, the wholesale cost of energy for power companies has just gone up by 50% (roughly). Your retail electricity bill alone should go up by about the same 50% (once all the compensation to generators is paid out, circa 2015).

    • Sony B Goode says:

      11:45am | 18/07/11

      Apparently its not “inconceivable” to Gillard et al,  from EA CRU emails:
      (note this email has over a 100 recipients which are too big to include here )

      Dear All,

      I would like to respond to some of the items in the attached text on
      issues etc. in particular to the statement in the section 3.1.1
      (sections 3: Drivers of required change in the future).

      “There is now greater demand for a higher level of policy relevance in
      the work of IPCC, which could provide policymakers a robust scientific
      basis for action”.

      1. While it is true that a vast majority of the public and the
      policymakers have accepted the reality of human influence on climate
      change (in fact many of us were arguing for stronger language with a
      higher level of confidence at the last meetings of the LAs), how
      confident are we about the projected regional climate changes?

      I would like to submit that the current climate models have such large
      errors in simulating the statistics of regional (climate) that we are
      not ready to provide policymakers a robust scientific basis for “action”
      at regional scale. I am not referring to mitigation, I am strictly
      referring to science based adaptation.

      For example, we can not advise the policymakers about re-building the
      city of New Orleans - or more generally about the habitability of the
      Gulf-Coast - using climate models which have serious deficiencies in
      simulating the strength, frequency and tracks of hurricanes.

      We will serve society better by enhancing our efforts on improving our
      models so that they can simulate the statistics of regional climate
      fluctuations; for example: tropical (monsoon depressions, easterly
      waves, hurricanes, typhoons, Madden-Julian oscillations) and
      extratropical (storms, blocking) systems in the atmosphere; tropical
      instability waves, energetic eddies, upwelling zones in the oceans;
      floods and droughts on the land; and various manifestations (ENSO,
      monsoons, decadal variations, etc.) of the coupled ocean-land-atmosphere
      processes.

      It is inconceivable that policymakers will be willing to make
      billion-and trillion-dollar decisions for adaptation to the projected
      regional climate change based on models that do not even describe and
      simulate the processes that are the building blocks of climate
      variability. Of course, even a hypothetical, perfect model does not
      guarantee accurate prediction of the future regional climate, but at the
      very least, our suggestion for action will be based on the best possible
      science.

      It is urgently required that the climate modeling community arrive at a
      consensus on the required accuracy of the climate models to meet the
      “greater demand for a higher level of policy relevance”.

    • Tom Jones says:

      11:51am | 18/07/11

      Google this link: ‘The Science of Climate Change: What does it Really Tell Us’
      and read that Report, which is Citated and Referenced.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      12:36pm | 18/07/11

      Anyone can look at the CRU emails, just search “Hadley CRU”, and draw their own conclusions. There are a lot of documents and over a 1000 emails from every major climate institution.

      From what I have looked at I can say the following,

      There is an obvious cause driven note to much of the materials, by that I mean looking for and protecting the view that AGW is real. I would have expected more impartial analysis of the data.

      “I really wish I could be more positive about the Kyrgyzstan material,
      but I swear I pulled every trick out of my sleeve trying to milk
      something out of that.”

      Details like this seem to imply that scientists have a preconceived view and are using the data for corroboration, not vice versa. It’s not itself a crime or evidence of wrong doing, but combine that with the fact that they still refuse to release the data it leaves cause for real concern.

      The basis of science is that it be replicable and defensible on its own not by obfuscation.

      There are unfortunate connections with greenpeace and WWF. There are 28 emails to and from greenpeace and 19 with WWF. These bodies are hardly impartial, the input and incestuous relationship between those that are on side and those that are not is somewhat disturbing and is common theme in the emails, including “impartial” organisations like CSIRO. Clearly these political bodies have had hidden input into the conclusions:

      From WWF to EA CRU
      “They are worried that this may present a slightly more conservative
      approach to the risks than they are hearing from CSIRO. In particular,
      they would like to see the section on variability and extreme events
      beefed up if possible. “

      There is a lot at stake in terms of funding, The emails show enormously defensive tone and an absolute refusal to allow data to be released. There are reputations and millions of dollars of funding at stake.

      There is in fact vast uncertainty with the models:

      “It is inconceivable that policymakers will be willing to make
      billion-and trillion-dollar decisions for adaptation to the projected
      regional climate change based on models that do not even describe and
      simulate the processes that are the building blocks of climate
      variability.”

    • Daz the Denier says:

      12:39pm | 18/07/11

      I love the way the Greens yell “Look at the science, believe the science” when it comes to Climate Change, but when it comes to something like GM crops it’s “Stone the scientists, kill them they’re wrong and are dooming us all”

    • Damocles says:

      11:56am | 18/07/11

      Hey Bruce, inflationary “Carbo Tax” in Australia = NIL effect on so called “Global Climate Change”! Try pulling China, India & USA into a “Carbo Tax” before forcing this humongous wealth redistribution tax on poor little Australia! For all you suffering from self-guilt about causing “Man-made Global Warming” you may want to check this out:-
      http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html
      Article shows that their are other theories on this issue and people shouldn’t be so close minded.
      Open debate and discussion is required, not secrecy and cover-up!

    • NRS says:

      12:02pm | 18/07/11

      That global warming is occuring, I have no doubt. That humanity is contributing to it, I have no doubt. That what humanity is doing to global warming is going to bring the world to an end, I think is rubbish. Global warming has occured in the past as far as I can see because primitive tools such as spearheads and the like are being found in areas that have had ice covering them for centuries.

    • Paul says:

      12:03pm | 18/07/11

      For once the Australian people (especially ‘working families’) understand the sheer stupidity of it all.

      Australia should be a world leader when the rest of the world is abut to undergo GFC II? And Australia heading down into its own true GFC I?

      Spend a huge proportion of GDP on reductions that make an immeasurable difference to the world wide levels of CO2?

      Make it more attractive to export raw materials so they can use untaxed CO2 generating technologies (cheaper) then import the finished products - of course this is vastly more polluting than encouraging home country based manufacturing.

      A rational approach would be to prepare for climate change (man made or not). Restrict infrastructure development near the ocean (so what if it makes sea change property more expensive now - that is a risk investors can choose to take or not take.

      Invest in technology development (water efficiency, food efficiency, power efficiency etc) instead of encouraging local innovators move overseas because of volatile government intervention.

      Encourage Australia to become a nimble, readily adaptable country. This is where prosperity will come from. Australia utilising its small size to readily adapt while large populations struggle to adapt to the inevitability of fossil fuel depletion (guaranteed), changing shore lines (perhaps), requirement for new food bowls (possibly).

      Seriously, some of the so called green experts are so far up themselves (and addicted to government funding) that their nonsense is unbelievable. Take the notion of green towers. High density living, cutting down power / heating and building costs. Except the tower becomes a parasite - everything has to be brought in, and the waste taken out. Yet this twaddle is now being spruiked around the US.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      12:16pm | 18/07/11

      Hmmm just to point out I don’t think that lady was wrong about famines (not sure if she got the scale wrong), but devastating famines are pretty much the norm for this planet now. An absurdly large chunk of the global population dies of under nutrition related problems every year.

    • Carl Palmer says:

      12:27pm | 18/07/11

      Mr. Bowen, I think the discussion has moved on. Everyone / most understand that “…ye shall pay for your beliefs”.

      The issue which is burning in many people’s mind is this - *everyone was told in no uncertain terms by the PM AND Deputy PM that this issue was *OFF* the public agenda. “There will be NO carbon tax under the government I lead”. There is no grey here. The PM would have had every right to ask – which bit of this statement don’t you understand.

      This is the issue that’s sticking in many people’s craw. Add to this the fact that this tax will have near zero impact and cost a bomb to administer. One can only wonder in amazement at how large the bureaucracy will grow to administer this tax.

      And as for …. “…men and women of a certain age ..” Mr. Bowen, what a very condescending and dopey statement to make. You should speak to these people and seek their council. You may learn a thing or two from the people who have been around the block a few more times than you. To even suggest that these people are not interested in the future of their kids, grand kids, great great grand kids is nonsensical at the extreme. These ““…men and women of a certain age ..”  should be congratulated and not chastised for getting off their arse, taking an interest and listening to another point of view. I can only assume therefore that your parents don’t care about your future and that of your kids.  If this is the case, I feel sorry for you.

    • Seth Brundle says:

      12:34pm | 18/07/11

      I’d be happy to pay a tax that resulted in cheaper solar panels for our homes.  Imagine every home in Australia producing all of its energy needs.  But that’s not going to happen.  Instead, the only people who will benefit are those who are already wealthy.  I think that is why so many people are against this tax, we know that it has nothing to do with saving the environment.

    • bleD says:

      04:26pm | 18/07/11

      Agreed Seth. If instead of wasting all that NBN money they used it to put solar panels on EVERYONE’S roof then we could save a great deal of coal-burned energy. But they didn’t; no real vision for the future.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      12:40pm | 18/07/11

      I can pay for carbon emission reductions through a convoluted carbon tax scheme that unfairly taxes singles and childless couples in favor of breeders (when overpopulation is part of the problem) or I can pay taxes for direct subsidies to the polluters. Both Labor and Liberal carbon emission reduction schemes are crap and both Gillard and Abbott can get stuffed. Vote informal in the next election.

    • Alan Watts says:

      12:41pm | 18/07/11

      Scientists predicited CFCs would be a problem in the early 70s aand sure enough an ozone hole opened up.  Humans reacted in time and fixed it.

      Another interpretation of of Y2K was that fixed it before any major issues could occur.

      I prefer a qualifed airline pilot to fly my jet-plane than a garbo, not to mention the clever engineers that design the aviation weather avoidance systems…  If I took this teleological argument to the extreme I would be wandering around all day saying “oh its too hard to predict whats happening, I don’t know anything, I’m not even going to try and understand, we never get things right….”  The world would genuinely be screwed up if everyone took this attitude..

    • JT says:

      01:34pm | 18/07/11

      ‘‘Scientists predicited CFCs would be a problem in the early 70s aand sure enough an ozone hole opened up.  Humans reacted in time and fixed it.’‘

      Wrong, scientists discovered an ozone hole, blamed CFC’s, they were banned, and decades later; we still have an ozone hole.

      ‘‘Another interpretation of of Y2K was that fixed it before any major issues could occur.’‘

      Great money making scheme for us in the biz (which I am)

      ‘‘I prefer a qualifed airline pilot to fly my jet-plane than a garbo, not to mention the clever engineers that design the aviation weather avoidance systems’‘

      A computer flies your plane most of the time and if you watch Air Crash Investigations you’d be more wary of the pilots than the computer.

      ‘‘oh its too hard to predict whats happening, I don’t know anything, I’m not even going to try and understand, we never get things right….”’ ‘’

      It is likely too hard to predict and from a theological point of view; wisdom is knowing what you do not know.

    • Temjin says:

      12:42pm | 18/07/11

      I’m a man-made climate apocalypse skeptic and I’m definitely willing (and will sign a binding contract) to bet that by 2050, there will be no disaster and the world will still be here if we don’t price carbon. The bet will include my entire super account (only on the benefits and tax free amount), my pension entitlement, and all medicare cost. Anyone on the other side want to do the same?? I bet not.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      01:02pm | 18/07/11

      Global warming; Nuclear attack; Foreign invasion; Killer bees; Ad infinitum.

      Every new poli has an item of fear to take our attention of their true agenda.

      First deflect the citizens attention then gently, gently slip in what you want.

      Think along these lines;

      Little Jimmy is playing with the T.V. remote. Take it from him and he screams.

      Instead, start playing with a ball. Jimmy will drop the remote and want the ball. 

      If a poli (except for a couple) said to me on a hot day that it was sunny, I would go outside and check.

      When they pat you on the back, look for the knife.

      When they tell you ‘it’s good’. Ask for whom.

    • David says:

      01:11pm | 18/07/11

      What the hell is this crap ?  Where the hell do bloody journalists get off setting themselves up as scornful detractors of every major scientific peak body on the planet ?  Bolt, Monkton and now this clown.  None of the so called predictions you mention were the subject of consensus this strong.  The entire scientific community, bar a few loons and PR Shills for coal miners, is telling us we have a problem, and a limited window to fix it.  We do not have the luxury of scratching our bums and leaving this for the next generation to fix.  This is not a joke, and not a bet at the races.  The consequences for getting this wrong are bloody awful, and people like you who want to play games rather than have a cold, hard look at the data disgust me.

    • Gregg says:

      01:48pm | 18/07/11

      @David,
      Come on David, lighten up for you know we all have this gambling thing downunder and in all reality mate, even if there was something to fix other than removing a bad government at the next election, it is not going to be fixed by this generation, the next one nor the one after and the next ten or twenty dozen.
      Nature is going to do its own thing and there’s not much point in looking at data of a temperature shift here and there by a degree or so when it varies all the time anyway.
      Like for instance, have you reviewd where exactly temperatures are taken and for how long they have been taken.

      And then how will those results and the modelling therefrom stack up against real happenings like volcanic eruptions and whatever ammount of heat that is contained within the earth’s core, some escaping on a regular basis.
      There was Krakatoa and now there’s a son of Krakatoa.

      If you know something about thermodynamics and heat transfer rates, have a think about the earth being a ball with much higher temperatures on the inside than what there is on the outside and then rather than me attempt to explain the cyclical variations that could occur, put some thought into it yourself.

      Was the IPCC set up to analyse the total scenario on what could affect the earth or is it that the CC is a direct representation that it is all about a predetermined climate change in support of whatever the agenda is.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      01:23pm | 18/07/11

      Not everyone is convinced, from CRU emails:

      On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Eugene I. ZZZZ
              <
              wrote:
              Alan:

              Thanks for the extensive and detailed e-mail. This is terrible
              but not surprising. Obviously I do not know what gives with
              these guys. However, I have my own suspicions and hypothesis. I
              dont think they are scientifically inadequate or stupid. I
              think they are dishonest and members of a club that has much to
              gain by practicing and perpetuating global warming scare
              tactics. That is not to say that global warming is not occurring
              to some extent since it would be even without CO2 emissions. The
              CO2 emissions only accelerate the warming and there are other
              factors controlling climate. As a result, the entire process may
              be going slower than the powers that be would like. Hence, (I
              postulate) the global warming contingent has substantial
              motivation to be dishonest or seriously biased, and to be loyal
              to their equally dishonest club members. Among the motivations
              are increased and continued grant funding, university
              advancement, job advancement, profits and payoffs from carbon
              control advocates such as Gore, being in the limelight, and
              other motivating factors I am too inexperienced to identify.

              Alan, this is nothing new. You and I experienced similar
              behavior from some of our colleagues down the hall, the Bell
              Labs research people, in the good old days. Humans are hardly
              perfect creations. I am never surprised at what they can do. _I
              am perpetually grateful for those who are honest and fair and
              thankfully there is a goodly share of those._

              -gene

    • Gregg says:

      02:52pm | 18/07/11

      You have less credibility with every post sonny.
      Give it a rest.

    • Benji says:

      04:01pm | 18/07/11

      Sonny’s like some kid who just had his first erection.
      He just can’t leave it alone.

      Sonny, stop playing with yourself, you’ll go blind.

    • The real Gregg says:

      09:20pm | 18/07/11

      @Gregg
      ” You have less credibility with every post sonny.
      Give it a rest. “
      Mate, you are posting with my name which I’ve had for quite a few months or so on The Punch.
      I had to change it drom just Greg because another Greg started up.
      How about you give yourself something else.

    • KH says:

      01:28pm | 18/07/11

      Haven’t got time to check if anyone else pointed this out, but have a look at the ‘Godless Gross’ column in SMH today - excellent theory on why so many people refuse to accept what most scientists working in the area around climate are saying. 

      Quote:

      The laity feels as if it can disparage an area of knowledge is one of three things:  difficult and inaccessible, so far in the future it’s not personally relevant or pertains to desperately bad news.  Creationism survives because astrophysics is just so hard.  Desperately sad news, like cancer, calls forth quack cures.  And problems of the future calls forth world weary apathy.  So some people, happily addicted to the good stuff science produces will simultaneously become science sceptics if the issue is too hard, too far away or too desperately sad.

      Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs/godless-gross/the-hierarchy-of-ascending-scientific-plausibility-20110714-1hfg3.html#ixzz1SQKqbh1g

    • ALFIE says:

      01:33pm | 18/07/11

      Being an old codger,with plenty of miles on the speedo,I am stunned and amazed that quite a few highly intelligent and brainy scientists get up on the podiums of the world and tell us that us puny human beings can change the weather on earth!!!!..  ALL we have to do is stop producing carbon etc,  Kill off all the camels, ants nests, and control cows from” blowing in the wind"what are we to do with the 50 or so volcanoes that explode during the year??!! not to mention Sun spots that change over the space of about 11years…The world has gone MAD…..

    • Al says:

      01:44pm | 18/07/11

      The conclusion sounds eminently fair. Put this warmist up for higher income tax if climate change is proven to be non-existent. Happy to put my money where my mouth is because I’ve read the science and have seen the measurements that are occurring right now.

    • Your name:scooter says:

      10:20pm | 18/07/11

      ... and they died at least a decade earlier than today’s generation.

    • Matt says:

      02:16pm | 18/07/11

      Now for some home truths…
      In the line at the supermarket, the cashier told the older woman that she should bring her own grocery bag because plastic bags weren’t good for the environment. The woman apologized to her and explained, “We didn’t have the green thing back in my day.”
      The clerk responded, “That’s our problem today. The former generation did not care enough to save our environment.”
      The older woman was right; her generation didn’t have the green thing in its day.
      Back then, they returned their milk bottles, soft drink bottles and beer bottles to the shop. The shop sent them back to the factory to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over.  They were recycled.
      But they didn’t have the green thing back in that customer’s day.
      In her day, they walked up stairs, because they didn’t have an escalator in every store and office building. They walked to the grocery store and didn’t climb into a 300-horsepower machine every time they had to go two blocks.
      The older woman was right; they didn’t have the green thing in her day.
      Back then, they washed the baby’s nappies because they didn’t have the throw-away kind. They dried clothes on a line, not in a 240 volt energy gobbling machine - wind and solar power really did dry the clothes.
      Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.
      The older woman was right; they didn’t have the green thing back in her day.
      Back then, if they had one, they had just one TV, or radio, in the house - not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a handkerchief, not a screen the size of a cricket pitch. In the kitchen, they blended and stirred by hand because they didn’t have electric machines to do everything for you. When they packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, they used a wadded up old newspaper to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap. They didn’t have air conditioning or electric stoves with self cleaning ovens. They didn’t have battery operated toys, computers, or telephones.
      Back then, they didn’t fire up an engine and burn fuel just to cut the lawn. They used a push mower that ran on human power. They used hand operated clippers to trim the shrubs.  They exercised by working so they didn’t need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity.
      The older woman was right; they didn’t have the green thing back then.
      They drank from a glass filled from the tap when they were thirsty instead of using a plastic bottle every time they had a drink of water. They refilled their writing pens with ink instead of buying a new pen, and they replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull.
      But they didn’t have the green thing back then.
      Back then, people walked or took the bus and kids rode their bikes to school or rode the school bus instead of turning their mums into a 24-hour taxi service. They had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And they didn’t need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites 2,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest pizza joint.
      But isn’t it sad the current generation laments how wasteful the old folks were just because they didn’t have the green thing back then?

    • persephone says:

      02:51pm | 18/07/11

      See? So going back to those kind of habits won’t hurt, will they?

      Changing the world can be very simple.

    • Michael says:

      06:37pm | 18/07/11

      This is the most pleasant greener future for me, more integrity in the old ways.

      Nice little read, thanks Matt.

    • Wombat says:

      02:21pm | 18/07/11

      Al Gore’s House in The Us of A, pollutes move than any one houe in Australia.

      As for Coal, we have enough to last us 3 to 4 hundred years, think of the money we will get for that from China, and India..

      We need move CO2 pollution, about double what we have now, that way we can double our Wheat Crop production and feed the Millions of Extra people we are having.
            Or have a mighty War and wipe out 1/3 rd of our population to start with, as long as it is not me Hahah, climate change stopped.  Q E D.

    • Daz the Denier says:

      02:24pm | 18/07/11

      It’s interesting to look at CO2 levels through history as well as pre-history and see how it compares to the levels today which are about 350 ppm (parts per million).  Atmospheric concentrations of CO2 in the early Carboniferous Period (approx 600 million years ago) were approximately were 1500 ppm,  during the Jurassic Period (200 mya), average CO2 concentrations were about 1800 ppm or about 4.7 times higher than today.  As far as I recall there weren’t a lot of people around way back then to impact climate change so maybe it is a continual cycle of planetary change that happens whether we are here or not.

    • jonesy says:

      02:29pm | 18/07/11

      believe in climate change or not.  the reality is that all political parties have some type of carbon tax scheme.  Vote out Gillard and you get Abbotts direct action scheme.  No matter what - we the taxpayer will pay. its matter of deciding which way we pay.  Gillard taxing the polluters and providing compensation or Abbott paying taxpayer money to the polluters

    • Daz the Denier says:

      03:05pm | 18/07/11

      @jonesy, you don’t actually believe the Libs will follow through with their carbon thing do you?  When they win the election, the policy will be sent to some sub-committee somewhere to “fine tune” the details and that is the last you will ever hear of it.

    • jonesy says:

      03:18pm | 18/07/11

      Daz the denier - well they have a lot of money..the $10 billion hole is Abbotts election budget plus the $10 billion that he palns to give polluters…its either increased taxes or he buries it..or ....just lies…or in his words .get it all in writing from him…

    • Bob says:

      03:24pm | 18/07/11

      @jonesy - and don’t forget that Labor’s plan will reward the big polluers even though they have already decided to scale back or close. Also Labors plan is to allow Australian money to go o’seas ETS (buy credits oseas).

      Germany has said they are going back to coal energy from Nuclear and their CO2 will rise by 10%. China,India,Canada & USA big polluters will easily pump out more CO2 than we will reduce.

      For the sake of the PLANET as PM Bob says I hope we have got this right!  Do you think?

      THIS IS JUST A TAX (dresssed up in carbon price clothing)

      In terms of Abbott - tell him you don’t want his plan either.

      Tell PM Brown to push ahead with his world governance - that should delay the whole process for another 10 years - by which time he will be retired (Greens Party no longer) and we will be well into the new ice age.

    • jonesy says:

      04:27pm | 18/07/11

      Bob…..Scotland will be using renewable energy to provide its total electricity by 2020.  Germany is re-opening several old nuclear plants it closed as part of its move to use renewable energy…..they have found they closed the plants too ealry and have been unable to provide enough power during the cold weather
      the money Gillard will give out is money from the 500 polluters, not taxpayer money from the budget.

    • John says:

      10:41am | 21/07/11

      Daz.  I hope so!

    • RyaN says:

      02:47pm | 18/07/11

      If you are a warmist then label your car with a bumper sticker, so we know where the hypocrites are.

      How about “Warmists car, that means you should walk, not me”.

    • Ken says:

      03:13pm | 18/07/11

      I am not 100% convinced that climate change is man-made.  I am 100% certain that there is no harm in trying to look after the planet a little bit rather than threat it with disdain like we are. 

      I am however against this carbon tax because I think it is a “feel-good” tax.  It’s a tax so that this government makes people feel good about doing something for the environment without doing anything concrete.

      How about real direct action like mandating that by 2020, electrical appliances sold in Australia must be X % efficient, cars must produce less than Y kg of CO2 and other pollutants per 100 km, limits imposed on air pollution on factories and power-plants with strong environmental overwatch.  Watch how many green technologies will “suddenly” appear then!  That’s my prediction.

    • Brendan says:

      03:17pm | 18/07/11

      It doesn’t matter if you believe in global warming or not, the debate has moved past that now. BOTH Labor and the Coalition have decided that global warming is real. BOTH Labor and the Coalition have decided that mankind is the cause of global warming. BOTH Labor and the Coalition have committed to a 5% reduction of the year 2000 carbon emission levels by 2020.

      Our choice now is between the Governments carbon tax or the Coalitions Direct Action plan. Under the carbon tax the polluters have to pay - the more they pollute the more they pay. Under Direct Action the polluters are paid taxpayers money - the more they pollute the more they get paid. I’d rather have the carbon tax, it’s more sensible and a cheaper solution than the expensive Direct Action plan.

    • hergo007 says:

      03:18pm | 18/07/11

      Why don’t we just make it all simple?
      Put forward the proposition that a Carbon Tax is needed, BUT ABSOLUTELY NO compensation will be paid out to any person, organisation, company or industry body.
      See how many people support it then.

    • Steve McGarret says:

      03:20pm | 18/07/11

      How about we make the Carbon Tax voluntary? Those who believe that their sacrifice for the common good is worthy can salary sacrifice for their ideal.

      As a mechanism of how that could work, think of how the Lifetime Health Cover (LHC) scheme works for calculating the premium loading on top of private health insurance for over-31s.

      Those who are the true believers can pay a levy, and pass on the benefits to their children. If reality proves out the theory, those who haven’t paid can be billed for a bigger relative contribution in the future.

      That solved, 2 facts:

      1. Nothing Australia does will have an impact on greenhouse gasses - we are too small.

      2. If Australia puts a tax on energy use, jobs involved in production using energy will move offshore to economies where there is no such tax - the invisible hand will ensure this. (*all things being equal:-)

    • seen it coming says:

      03:36pm | 18/07/11

      This article is exactly what I was thinking yesterday! I have made choices and are happy to live with them but lets all put our cards on the table. No hedging. Are you for price on carbon or against it? And your children take the consequences.

    • True sayings says:

      03:43pm | 18/07/11

      But there are some sure things.  Demand always exceeds supply.  We don’t infinite capacity.  We all die one day.

    • Gavin says:

      03:48pm | 18/07/11

      The problem is that if we get a carbon tax and nothing happens or ever happened the alarmists will all say ‘look see we stopped it, arent we great, worship us’

    • andre says:

      04:07pm | 18/07/11

      I see the evolutionists on both sides : warmists and deniers confused here : why not allow mother nature they worship, to take its course and cull some of the human and animal population by climate change?

    • Up The Abbottohs !! says:

      04:23pm | 18/07/11

      Unpredictable unforeseen change does occur that is unexpected but the predicted future rarely occurs bit it worries us to death.

    • Martin says:

      04:25pm | 18/07/11

      Watched Gillard on Sky News this morning. Very worried look in her eyes. I beleive there is real possibilty of something happenning. 26% primary vote means that a stack of Labor MP’s are gone. I doubt they will stand for much more bad polling. Rumour has it that Gillard had her numbers men check her support over the last couple of days. Saw a photo of Howes this afternoon he looked very concerned.  She is not carrying herself with any confidence, something is going to give here. They may dump her, although I doubt it (but we are talking about Labor here so anything is possible) or they might just dump this tax or seek to distance themselves from the Greens. If the next Newspoll is similar to this Nielsen poll, then I think there’s little doubt that Labor will do something drastic to counter the problem. Frankly, I think 26% and 27% results are already well and truly crisis points and I would find it very hard to believe that crisis meetings and desperate stategy rethinks are not all the rage within the Labor party right now. The juxtaposition is to tough it out, I just don’t see the required toughness in Gillard now.

    • Gregg says:

      09:15pm | 18/07/11

      Saw her on another news skit with Tanya Plibersek in background and Tanya is a fairly common sense no nonsense minister and she had a very bland noncommittal air about her and even with head nodding at one time the way the backers always do, her continually arched right eyebrow was really telegraphing something else.

    • Sean says:

      04:36pm | 18/07/11

      The carbon tax is just like the cane toad traps handed out by the NT ALP government not very long ago. 
      The cane toads migrated across millions of square kilometres of wetlands and savanna.  All the way across the gulf country, all the way across Arnhem land through Kakadu, then on to Darwin to be met by Greenies armed with cane toad traps to keep their gardens toad free.  Yep thats right, it was only a problem when they got to the urban yards of Darwin houses.  The toads were then taken to the RSPCA and euthanased.  Greenies really thought the program got it right.

    • Ron M says:

      04:58pm | 18/07/11

      When the warmists were contradicted and informed by emminent scientists that the earth was not warming in any fashion and that no evidence of human interferance on the climate could be proven to be attributed to Humans…Then the Warmists changed their catch cry to CLIMATE CHANGE…Thus providing a much broader scope and agenda for debate..such quick and convenient name changing just highlights that it was never in the Warmists true agenda to help the world..but simply have a cause and be alarmist for the sake of power.It is true that Science and Scientists are in the most part funded by Government..so it is in Australia…and as pointed out ..these Scientists will not deviate from the Gov’t in power and /or their policies..as they will be threatened with reduced funding,grants etc..this point was confirmed recently by an ex CSIRO SCIENTIST..so Scientific opinion by independent scientists is hard to find but they are out there..mainly in Europe and mainly sceptics…but always enviromentalists..here lies the difference ..doing the best for our enviroment..with good practice..doesnt need a tax…just good policy

    • Vaunted says:

      05:08pm | 18/07/11

      Hey Nigel, back to ye olde school for ye olde Engllish tongue, for you: “Warmist or denier, ye shall pay for your beliefs”, nay. “Warmist or denier, thou shalt pay for thy beliefs”, yea. Forsooth.

    • Anthony Sharwood

      Anthony Sharwood says:

      05:35pm | 18/07/11

      Nah, my fault Vaunted. In my flimsy defence, I basically just chucked the “ye” in there to make reference to olde worlde Nostradamusy times, rather than trying to get the language spotte on. But thou hast a good point.

    • Ben says:

      05:10pm | 18/07/11

      I stopped reading when you used the lack of famine as evidence that experts are wrong.

    • Lorraine says:

      05:39pm | 18/07/11

      What is thie word “denier”/
      It was the measurement of the fineness of nylon stockings. Who changed it.?

      Surely denyer is the correct spelling… that is one who denies something…. or is it someone who just holds a different point of view?

    • Gregg says:

      09:08pm | 18/07/11

      I dunno Lorraine but maybe we can think of a lion and his den and if a lion has a more fitting den, could it be denier.
      So if you are a better Lorraine than another, could you be a Lorranier and that could nearly make you a princess befitting Prince Ranier!

      Meanwhile we can think of Princess Juliar le denier, one who refuses to accept that all is not always so well.
      She’ll need some good stockings for all those explanatory walks she is planning on doing.

    • c.conserv. says:

      10:33pm | 18/07/11

      @Lorraine, you’re right, of course.  It’s a made-up word ...... courtesy the Church of Climate Whatever.  The alarmists chose it,  for its religious tone,  to use against the non-believers/sceptics.
      Wonder if the poor creature who replied to you knows that his prince is dead.

    • Gregg says:

      09:38am | 19/07/11

      Denyer is the short-ass weather presenter on some morning breakfast show.
      Can’t use that now can we Gregg?

    • Not in the U.S.A. says:

      01:31pm | 19/07/11

      @Gregg ......  It’s “short-arse”.  We’re not in the U.S.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      05:59pm | 18/07/11

      Ok some very weird stuff inside the EA CRU emails, this is a newsletter received by the CRU, does shed some light on how some of the scientists are thinking ....

      From: Earth Government <earthgov @ ZZZ.shaw.ca>
      Subject: Press release from Earth Government and April Newsletter
      Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:05:07 -0800

                    Press release from Earth Government and April Newsletter
                                FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

        This Press release from Earth Government is found at
        [1]http://members.shaw.ca/earthgov/HNewsPR05.htm

                      Formation of Earth Government for the good of all

        March 27th, 2003


        To all Peoples of the Earth,

        Earth has long been waiting for a truly global governing body based on universal values,
        human rights, global concepts and democracy. Earth Government might as well be created now,
        there is no longer any reason to wait. We are the Earth Community, and we will form the
        Earth Government. Earth management is a priority and is a duty by every responsible person.
      want you to reflect on
        future effects of such an event on the history of humanity. Certainly one will expect
        extraordinary changes: a reorganizing of human activities all over the planet;
        participation by all societies on the planet in solving local and global problems; new
        alliances forming; north meeting with south (eradication of poverty will be the price to
        pay to get votes from the south) in order to gather more votes within the newly created
        Earth Government to satisfy power struggles between European, Asian and Western countries;
        adoption of democratic principles, human and Earth rights, global concepts, and universal
        values by every human being; expansion of consciousness; gathering and coordinating of
        forces to resolve social and political problems in a peaceful way (no more conflicts or
        wars); gathering and coordinating of forces (technologies, scientific research, exploration
        work, human resources, etc.) to resolve global problems such as global climate,
        environment, availability of resources, poverty, employment, etc. Thousands more changes

      ....

    • Benji says:

      07:33pm | 18/07/11

      Didn’t I tell you to stop playing with yourself?
      Stop spamming the comments.

    • Wayne says:

      06:49pm | 18/07/11

      Refer to the document http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12327 which seems to indicate that the Australian continent and coastal waters absorb more CO2 than is emitted by Australians. If true this makes a mockery of promoting us as being the highest emitters when the net is Australia is absorbing more than being emitted ie the net is favourable. The problem with Gillard and this tax are she lied about a carbon tax and anything that questions the government position is not publicized by the government or dismissed out of hand.  Also any action by Australia will have no effect on the temperature, the sea level rise or the barrier reef. The government decision making processes are no way to ensure the correct courses of action. A carbon tax will also be negating one of our main competitive advantages ie cheap energy for no gain we don’t have too many other advantages. Our businesses cannot compete now against overseas imports so any additional impost will accelerate jobs going overseas.

    • Leo says:

      06:50pm | 18/07/11

      Nigel. Your article seeks to devalue the public’s current negativity toward the government as nothing more than a whim. Among all the cheap shots, your reference to the Vietnam War and perceived value of the effort to stop the spread of communism in south east Asia; is where it hits rock bottom. So I will take your challenge and put my hand up. I support the Vietnam war.

      While its been rightly labelled a disaster, what if the west had not engaged the communists in Vietnam and it was taken uncontested. How many other nations would we have to let go, before we engaged ?

      Nobody put a stop to the spread of communism across Europe after WW2 and it engulfed the vast majority of the continent. Countless millions had perished at the hands of the communist regime’s in China and Russia when Ho Chi Minh did a deal with those nations to recognise and train the forces of his Vietnamese revolution. No doubt they had their own agenda.

      The cost to engage those who desire to inflict a brutal regime of uncontested rule is always high. However, the ‘low cost’ solution of turning your head and saying its not your problem devalues when the bad guys end up living next door and start looking over your fence.

      Criticizing tough decisions, is always easier when you don’t have to look at the alternative.

      In light of communist intolerance of the free press, and your chosen profession Nigel, it could be said that you owe at least your job and probably your life, to the efforts of those who fought the communists in Vietnam.

      And as for public negativity:  Woe betide those who dismiss the will of the people, no matter how whimsical.

    • Gregg says:

      08:59pm | 18/07/11

      @Leo,
      Get a grip mate and Vietnam was all about an extension of the McCarthy reds under beds scaremantics of the US.
      Sure NV had support of the Ruskies but as for the Chinese they have never been too great a mates and have even taken to artillery changes with oneanother from time to time.
      The US left with their tail between their legs for all of Vnam to become communist just like China and have either invaded other countries since?

    • Leo says:

      09:50pm | 18/07/11

      @Gregg, nice for you that you can reconcile millions of dead people as just a statistic and a political mistake by the other side. The facts are that the bad guys did what they did and they slaughtered men women and children like you spray baygon. Go visit their graves before you wipe your brow with the insignificance of their lives. I have. If the Red’s won they day you would not have the right to express your free will as you have - don’t forget that… mate. As to your argument that they have not invaded other countries since - that kind of supports my suggestion that the value of engagement as a deterrent works, doesn’t it ?

    • c.conserv. says:

      07:19pm | 18/07/11

      @Leo:  I’m with you on this

    • Tator says:

      09:12pm | 18/07/11

      I tend to find this Climate Change /Carbon Tax debate to go along ideological grounds.  To be totally honest, I find that the abuse from both sides can be rather personal and any debate is rarely about facts.
      The big issue I have about this carbon tax package is not the wealth redistribution factors and the compensation measures which are costing the budget bottom line $4.3 billion, but the many assumptions made by Treasury in assuming the USA and all other developed economies who do not already have them will be involved in some form of ETS.  Also on top of that , assuming by 2021, China will sign up too, and with 14 per cent of the world’s population and barely 20 per cent of world income, will agree to shoulder 34 to 35 per cent of the costs of global mitigation.  So what happens if these assumptions do not occur, which in the current environment, are entirely plausible.
      I also find the package hypocritical in that it excludes petroleum but not LNG and coal produced for Australian power production.  It also offers compensation for the Coal industry so they can continue exporting Australian coal to be burnt in other countries but penalise the same coal for being burnt here for power and there is much more coal going os than what we burn here.
      Now taking my ideological bias against the tax out of the equation, treasury modelling state that it doesn’t even do the job that it is supposed to do and reduce emissions and to reach our 5% reduction of year 2000 levels requires purchasing of off shore carbon permits for the bulk of the reduction.
      So in effect, we will have a carbon tax package costing more than it generates that will not be anywhere near effective in reducing emissions and also increasing the CPI so the question is how is that supposed to benefit our society.
      To be totally frank, I don’t think taxing carbon emissions or artificially creating markets out of thin air (pun intended) for an ETS will reduce any perceived problem but I do believe that technology will be the main driver as it has in the past and when so called baseload capable renewables like geothermal or nuclear fusion naturally become cheaper than coal power due to technological advances and economies of scale, this will be the main driver of reducing emissions and I believe that we do have the time to wait for these to come online as Flannery said, even if Australia stopped all emissions today, it will still take 1000 years to see any real reduction in temperature, and if that is the case, this means we do have the time considering difference from the hysteria prior to Copenhagen and what has happened in real time empirical observations over the last 12 years.

    • MeLogic says:

      09:49pm | 18/07/11

      Reading people’s arguments for and against a carbon tax and / or global warming reads a lot like the theist / atheist debate.  There are those who believe and those who don’t and there are those who don’t know what to believe.

      Interestingly, when something has been proven to be a fact, or a natural law, or when science has agreed that something is inherently unpredictable, like seismic and volcanic activity, the acrimonious arguments disappear.  Because all of a suddent, there is no need for consensus or opinion, or BELIEF.  There is no need for belief, or hope or faith.  A fact is fact.  And so far, we do NOT know very much about climate change, either way. 

      As we don’t know enough, it is not possible to make a valid decision about programs designed to mitigate an unknown anthropogenic impact.  Therefore we should do exactly NOTHING at the moment.  We should certainly NOT but a Carbon Tax on business (which will trickle down to low-middle income earners) in the middle of a highly volatile global economic environment.  We know that much.

    • Brandon says:

      12:46am | 19/07/11

      Just for the record, millions of people did starve to death during the ‘70s.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      01:29am | 19/07/11

      Hi Nigel,

      Does this also mean that the people who actually believe in the after life and the end of the world as we see it, also happen to have some kind of religious belief?? May be so!!

      My question to you is that certain portion of our population who choose not to have any religious beliefs at all are more wise and logical??  This also remains to be seen, if you ask me for personal opinion!!

      The wises & logical thing we can all do is actually to believe whole heartedly that we have been using our natural resources at such a high rate and in the process we are all responsible for the amount of pollution & damage being done to our planet.  For me this is easier to believe & than any kind of prophecy written in any book.

      Can our planet’s rising population handle all that?  And will all those resources such as fresh drinking water & food, as well as much adored world in the West ” never ending petrol supplies” actually end with it all as well?? Lets all answer this question first of all!!  Best regards to your editors.

    • AnthonyG says:

      07:31am | 19/07/11

      Call me Nostradamus but I believe Labor and the Greens will milk Australia for everything.  All their politicians will become very wealthy and have secret bank accounts and the climate wont change 1 iota

    • Cade Foster says:

      10:10am | 19/07/11

      Science is about TRUTH and TRANSPARENCY.
      The CLIMATE-GATE 2009 scandal had shown that a group of influential climate-alarmist scientists were using FRAUD and DECEPTION to push a climate-alarmist agenda.

      The climate-alarmists start with the question “How does man affect climate ?” while the climate skeptics (realists) begin with the question “What affects climate ?”.  Who do you think is the real scientist ?

      Many people who are worried about our future, in the context of climate change (presumably the anthropogenic, not natural, type), are people who have a background with virtually no grounding in a scientific/engineering/etc. discipline. They easily accept the governments alarmist position. Many of these people and others are not aware of the assumptions and relatively poor predictive-potential of computer-based climate models in addition to not realizing the lack of knowledge the climate/etc. scientists have concerning aspects of climate phenomena. I have read disclaimers of climate change reports published by CSIRO and Bureau of Meteorology which imply that the authors of the respective technical reports are not responsible for the accuracy of temperature projections implied from their computer simulation of climate. This is not surprising since the authors, like every other scientist, do acknowledge that assumptions have to be made concerning aspects of climate we have little knowledge of. What is surprising is that climate-based government policy is being significantly dictated by these ad-hoc computer simulations.

      FYI, I have a doctorate in an applied science discipline and feel comfortable while perusing the technical aspects of the (climate) science literature. When coupled with the realization of the climate-alarmist propaganda over the last two decades it is natural, not human-induced, climate change that I think is much more relevant (my stance being that human-induced climate change is a much smaller effect).

      Anyway, you have to wonder why our government takes their climate change marching orders from the UN (i.e. the politicized IPCC). We have good scientists on both sides of the fence (i.e. climate alarmists versus climate skeptics). The government should be promoting public debates between both sides to increase the people’s awareness of climate phenomena. Scientists, like Professor Bob Carter, are more than capable in explaining the science of climate in a way that the layman can absorb.

      Instances have existed where notable climate skeptics (realists) have desired a public debate with notable climate alarmists (e.g. in USA) but the alarmists avoid these entanglements citing no excuse or, for example, “the science has been settled” excuse.

      Like I said earlier, science is about TRUTH and TRANSPARENCY.
      What is the government (or Greens) scared of ?
      Is it the truth ?

    • Tom Foster says:

      11:14am | 19/07/11

      Totally agree Cade Foster. My father, same surname as your good self - no relation I’m sure, has been studying this debate 24/7 since ‘92 (totally self funded, which is why so many sceptics are old & grey haired). In 1988 he was an “expert” on a TV program about it and has gained great understanding of all the potential areas of science that could be having a possible effect on our climate. He started out on the fence, but soon became quite amazed at the lies and distortion of the IPCC and East Anglica U, etc. He has been a very successful business man & a sole author in Nature, so is well rounded.
      As a layman myself, I just hate it when Juliar and Bob Brown tell us to pay the tax for our kids - I have 3 & would do anything I can for them. This is an emotional, not substantive argument, but what gets to me is that neither of them have kids.

    • Thommo says:

      01:54pm | 19/07/11

      All posters above - If you haven’t read Hayek’s the fatal Conceit you shouldn’t be talking about Economics - in fact you should shut up on just about everything.

    • michael says:

      03:38pm | 19/07/11

      Nigel, you’re showing ignorance and/or an unwillingness to learn: “On the other hand, their typically young opponents can afford to be relaxed about, say, calling for massive government investment in renewable energy knowing that, in the short-term at least, it’ll be their parents and grandparents generation who¹ll picking up most of the tab for it.”
      Your inference that this is an Old vs. Young debate is plainly wrong and a lazy argument, because if you had attempted to investigate you would have found that the attendees of pro-climate action rallies are of all ages.
      And you seem to be suggesting that the parents and grandparents are all in the ‘1 in 10’ households that won’t be better off and are therefore micking up most of the tab. But that ‘1 in 10’ thing came from Treasury - can’t trust them now, can we? No way, they’re totally biased and unreliable.
      And don’t place any faith in the CSIRO, the Productivity Commission or the majority of economists either! They’re all conniving conspirators!!
      Much better to talk about an obscure opportunistic history book and throw in a few cliches about the carbon debate than to actually engage in a factual discussion about the politics and economics of pricing carbon.

    • Thommo says:

      11:33am | 21/07/11

      It shouldn’t be about the politics or econmics it should be about the Science. As we saw yesterday at the Press Club debate, when it’s about the science the proagandist warmist don’t have a leg to stand on. Dennis was humiliated by Monckton.It was like watching Geelong destroy Port in the grand final

    • Love Coal says:

      05:39pm | 19/07/11

      It’s 2011, and somehow I still don¹t have a robot maid to clean my house or a jetpack to fly me to work…

      You can blame that on the Greens

 

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