In search of mates for their unloved climate tax, Labor phoned a friend and the ACTU answered on The Punch last week. That was predictable. But it was the shallowness of Ged Kearney’s contribution which surprised many, because it demonstrated a limited understanding of the debate and scant regard for the best interests of her members.

This little guy doesn't care who pays for him, as long as someone does

The ACTU case is simple enough; it’s Labor’s case. Belief in the climate science and that someone must pay. The ACTU’s more nuanced perspective is that their members shouldn’t pay a cent. In the pantheon of climate hypocrisy, that places Kearney right up there next to Paul Howes. Someone must pay; so long as that someone isn’t me.

Credit to Kearney for conceding she isn’t an expert in the field. Nor am I. But ignorance is no excuse for refusing to seek simple answers to fair questions on behalf of her members. It is implausible that an ACTU president could be both unaware of membership doubts around both the science and the tax. It is breathtaking that she is unwilling to address them with reasoned reflection.

While the ACTU is correct that someone must pay, it’s the ‘when and how we pay‘ which really matters. These complex questions have engaged the minds of protagonists globally, but not the ACTU.

Their disengagement on questions of national interest is a concern; questions like when and how to pay, the need for international agreements which reduce protectionism and the role of future technology in abatement. Surely unions care about avoiding carbon leakage and the export of union jobs. They need to urgently establish which of their members benefit and how many may be harmed by a carbon tax so they can play a role in that transition. At the moment, all they appear to want is a free ride.

With such climate conviction, it’s an extraordinary double twist with pike to then demand complete immunity from a carbon tax. Focused on destroying their sworn enemies, it’s all about the ‘big polluting companies’ who should not be ‘let off the hook.’ That tired dichotomy of nasty corporations crushing toiling honest workers resonated in soviet Russia, but that old class warfare mentality isn’t valid anymore.

The ACTU ignores tax incidence by denying taxes on energy generation pass invariably to consumers. Of course the carbon tax will hit union jobs and hip-pockets along the supply chain. The question runs beyond job and income protection. Unions should be asking how variably fuel-stressed union families will be fairly compensated over the medium and long term. Equally, unions should be monitoring whether multinational entities shift effort and reduce domestic hiring as they seek higher returns off-shore.

There is also a bigger picture. Unlike taxing carbon at consumption, current taxes apply Pigouvian principles to hit production. That hurts economies like Australia because we are forced to self-tax our resources which are overwhelmingly exported. Blue collar and middle income earners have the most to lose with this approach, but it is a fact lost on the ACTU. Supporting a tax on production which trickles unpredictably down upon its membership suggests they are more a front for the Government than an advocate for their members.

Finally, the ACTU appears seduced by the ‘finite resources’ argument; that our ore, coal and gas might run out if we don’t have a carbon tax next year. All three are likely to take us into the next century. We didn’t need Mr Rudd’s plan by November 2009 and despite residual hysteria, we don’t need a clumsy carbon tax while around 90% of the world’s commodity exporters are doing nothing. Just like global trade arrangements, climate negotiation will take years and possibly decades to achieve. Forcing up fuel prices at the bowser for Australians in 2012 is political masochism which achieves little.

Australians generally agree that market-based solutions are the most effective. Rudd’s, Gillard’s and Abbott’s all qualify. The question is who needs to be dragged into that market to achieve desired carbon reductions. Economists may prefer the miniscule theoretical benefits of Gillard’s uber-tax but 90% of it is avoidable churn and the administrative costs are enormous. That is why Abbott’s direct and verifiable purchase of abatement is so attractive. Funded through existing consolidated revenue mechanisms and waste reduction, abatement is guaranteed while ordinary consumers with inelastic consumption are protected.

The ACTU can’t be expected to support Abbott’s plans, but their members deserve an honest appraisal. Gillard’s approach risks disproportionately hurting low-income earners who are more reliant on essentials and across a range of fuel-stressed arrangements, impossible to precisely compensate. The ACTU also conveniently ignores the massive waste cuts which the Coalition has promised. Kearney should be more nuanced on these issues rather than refusing to take Abbott’s plan seriously.

Climate debate here and globally is really a battle of economic redistribution. It’s about how much rich people pay to poor and rich nations pay to poor. Redistribution is precisely what tore the Copenhagen negotiations apart. Rudd survived as long as he did by keeping debate focused on the morality of protecting the planet. For Gillard, it’s really just a rich tax where the proceeds are used to buy the support of her voter base through vague promises of compensation.

By global standards, the average ACTU member is among the world’s wealthiest 12%. There are 2 billion worldwide living on less than a couple of dollars a day who will never afford a seven cent per litre fuel tax. That is why the ACTU needs to explain why union jobs and income should be protected in a globally workable scheme.

Agency theory describes aligning the actions of those who represent us with our own. ACTU members pay to have their interests represented. Instead of being ideological puppets for ailing Labor governments, unions should be doing all they can to get the best possible carbon solution for the country, not just blanket exemptions for their members.

156 comments

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    • acotrel says:

      05:46am | 26/04/11

      Why did we ever have EPAs in the states of Australia?  Surely it was their job to prosecute polluters?  If they’d been doing their jobs, we’d have been paying for the fines imposed already, and we wouldn’t need a carbon tax.  We would already be paying for R&D into renewables?  I believe that as a taxpayer I’ve been unnecessarily supporting a shinybum bureaucracy of environmenta l scientists who’ve been emasculated by politicians!

    • L. says:

      09:05am | 26/04/11

      “Surely it was their job to prosecute polluters?”

      “Pprosecute” based on what? a theory..?? CO2 isn’t listed as a polluant, so how can you prosecute someone for releasing it into the atmosphere?

      We have already seen what happenes we we over react to environmental “hazzards”. Look at what happened with banning DDT. It cost 40,000,000 African / Asian lives.

    • MarK says:

      09:08am | 26/04/11

      Because carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.

      It ain’t that hard to work out.

      Every single time a Labor politician says “carbon pollution"you know they are lying as soot is non existent as a health problem or environmental problem in Australia.

      It is a term designed to be emotive. That is all.

      Wealth redistribution is the real aim, oh and Gillard playing “tough” on an issue she doesn’t even believe in. What a inept politician she really is.

    • Muzz says:

      09:20am | 26/04/11

      Well the answer is our EPAs do not classify CO2 as a pollutant. The carbon tax specifically targets CO2, which is not pollutant (of the EPA kind).

    • L. says:

      09:50am | 26/04/11

      “Every single time a Labor politician says “carbon pollution"you know they are lying as soot is non existent as a health problem”

      Ah, no… “soot” is a massive health problem. It’s why modern diesel cars have particulate filters.

      Soot and CO2 are not the same thing…

    • MarK says:

      10:09am | 26/04/11

      Yes L. CO2 and soot are not the same thing.

      Carbon dioxide is not “carbon pollution” (sic)

      Thank you for saying exactly what I was saying. Soot is NOT an issue because we have the fixes in place

    • L. says:

      11:21am | 26/04/11

      “Soot is NOT an issue because we have the fixes in place”

      Ah, no.. again, soot is an exisiting health issue. All because there are measures in place to help reduce it, doesn’t mean it isn’t an on going problem. There’s still an awful lot of pre-particulate filter diesels on the road.

      To say it’s a “non-existant” problem (an absolute) is a grossly incorrect.

    • Thommo says:

      11:22am | 26/04/11

      So - just because they ‘rule’ it don’t make it so. Emperor’s new clothes. Media & Society should be a compulsory subject for every high school student.

    • MarK says:

      12:22pm | 26/04/11

      really L.

      Tell ya what you go run around in a circle trying to make something out of nothing. I really couldn’t care less.

      It is a sideshow to the lies of “carbon pollution” that spout from the mouths of the labor time wasters.

      I admire your attempt to try to make an issue out of nothing but frankly you bore me. Enjoy your argument.

    • L. says:

      01:12pm | 26/04/11

      @MarK

      You used a wrong term.. someone called you on it, now you pulling the “frankly you bore me” defence… Having read a lot of your posts I actually thought you were better than that. I guess we were both wrong today. Cheers.

    • MarK says:

      02:23pm | 26/04/11

      Wrong term lolwat?

      No I did not L.

      The Labor party and green sycophants use the term “carbon pollution” instead of carbon dioxode because it is emotive. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.

      There is no pressing soot issue in Australia from a health or environmental point of view and, frankly, what you think of me or my posts doesn’t concern me.

      You bored me not by way of “defence” but because your reading comprehension fails. It is boring as hell to explain the same basic thing 3 times but here I am doing my good deed for the reading impaired. That’s you L just in case you missed it.

      Labor uses carbon pollution to try and make people think of soot.

      That is all. Take it on whatever other tangent you want. Knock yourself out and have a blast with anything else you want to make of it.

      My point is clear. My interest ends here. Have fun with your soot argument. Should be awesome to see you muddle your way forward with some more comprehension fails.

    • Northern Steve says:

      02:43pm | 26/04/11

      carbon/carbon dioxide.  We all know that when the phrase carbon pollution is used, it means excess production of CO2.  To argue anything else is just semantics, and if you are reduced to arguing semantics then it means you know you have nothing of substance to argue.
      If you want to be pedantic then yes, carbon dioxide itself is not a pollutant, however, excess production of carbon dioxide is a pollutant.

    • L. says:

      03:04pm | 26/04/11

      @MarK..

      You don’t care, yet you wrote how many words addressing it..??

      Anyway, I digress..

      “Environmental soot kills more people than any other pollutant owing to its association with respiratory illness and cancer.”

      http://www.umerc.umd.edu/projects/combustion/combustion01.html

      But I guess you’ll argue that American soot is different to Australian soot.

      Soot is a real pollutant, unlike CO2, and they are not interchangable terms, but your first post here was treating them as such…which was wrong.

    • Gordicans says:

      03:59pm | 26/04/11

      MarkK, you are arguing semantics re. carbon being a pollutant.  The simple fact is that C02 is a greenhouse gas, so when man pumps too much into the atmosphere, we have greenhouse warming and AGW.  End of story.

    • MarK says:

      05:01pm | 26/04/11

      ”  MarK says:

        09:08am | 26/04/11

        Because carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.

        It ain’t that hard to work out.

        Every single time a Labor politician says “carbon pollution"you know they are lying as soot is non existent as a health problem or environmental problem in Australia.

        It is a term designed to be emotive. That is all.

        Wealth redistribution is the real aim, oh and Gillard playing “tough” on an issue she doesn’t even believe in. What a inept politician she really is.”


      Reading is really hard L. Really really hard for you huh?

      Let me know when you have it mastered.

      Actually don’t.

      This is turning out to be quite fun.

      We even have a greenhouse gas expert coming in to lend a hand. This is awesome. All that CO2 and no warming in the last 10 years. Hmmmmm What does it all mean?

      Back later, must go clean the soot off the windows and rinse out the airlock. Must also wonder where I mentioned American soot.

      Now Chinese soot…..well that’s a doosie.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      06:07pm | 26/04/11

      It’s not just semantics, it is about providing information that is not misleading or emotionally loaded and allows people to be fully informed about what this tax is and hopes to do.

      Gillard has used the emotive term Carbon pollution - not taxing CO2 emissions. Just in the last few days on this site I have read people comment after putting the words carbon and pollution together. How they hate smog over cities and this tax will solve it, soot has been mentioned and this tax will solve it, lung disorders (based on the pollution) and this tax will solve it.

      These people are obviously not part of the group described by Northern Steve when he says.  “We all know that when the phrase carbon pollution is used, it means excess production of CO2” Apparently some people cannot make that distinction.

      Logically, Gillard should have used the term Oxygen Pollution, it would be more accurate than Carbon Pollution, but oxygen just does not have the same stigma associated with it that would draw people in. It’s not semantics, it’s not informative, it’s manipulative.

    • Northern Steve says:

      09:53pm | 26/04/11

      If you want to look at the sources of carbon dioxide emissions, you almost always find that the emissions include an array of compounds, including CO2, carbon monoxide (CO) and carbon(C - which produces soot) amongst others. CO and C are the product of incomplete combustion of fuels with oxygen, It is the CO2 that is the strongest greenhouse gas amongst these, CO and C are less stable and react with free oxygen in the atmosphere to eventually produce CO2, but in the meantime C in particular will cause smog.  Vastly simplified as the chemistry of smog is fairly complex.  The key concern globally is CO2 as it is stable and long lasting.  Smog can be cleared up reasonably quickly once fewer fossil fuels are burnt.
      To sum up, the main target of the carbon tax is CO2.  By reducing the emission of CO2, you will also reduce the emission of CO and C, as well as a whole host of other pollutants as well.
      Or you can just sum up the lot as carbon pollution.

    • acotrel says:

      03:14am | 27/04/11

      @Shane Will you please shut up?
      ‘The EPA lumped carbon dioxide with five other gases—methane, nitrous oxide, hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons and sulfur hexafluoride—into a single class for regulatory purposes. That’s because they share similar properties: All are long-lived and well-mixed in the atmosphere; all trap heat that otherwise would leave the earth and go into outer space; and all are “directly emitted as greenhouse gases” rather than forming later in the atmosphere.’

      OOPS - SAWRY! -  Is that what I just heard the rest of you say? If the science is beyond you, please get yourselves educated!

    • Peter says:

      07:56am | 27/04/11

      Lots of replies arguing if Co2 is a pollutant. A pollutant in general terms is a substance that is known to cause harm.
      Nature recycles an amount of Co2 in its life support system and so do we. However breath it in too, yet too much Co2 and you will die just like anything else in nature getting too much Co2, and thats not getting into its blanket effect upon our attmosphere within this Biosphere in space supporting our Mother this Earth.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      05:55am | 26/04/11

      So what is your position on the broader issue of climate change? Are you an out & out denier? Do you perhaps believe that the world is heating up all right , but its nothing to do with human activity? On one hand you laud Tony Abbott’s alternative tax proposals but you then you go on to say: “Climate debate here and globally is really a battle of economic redistribution”. If thats the case any carbon tax is a deception. You can’t have it both ways.

    • Ryan says:

      09:47am | 26/04/11

      @Steve Putnam: there is not one shred of evidence that shows a human marker in climate change, not one to this day has been shown. The IPCC’s Prof. Richard Lindzen says no environmental benefit for carbon tax, followed with IPCC Scientist Professor John Christy who says that they have no observations whatsoever that humans are causing any climate change.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbnVj7E4iZ8
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqu993xs9Gk

      So the reputable scientists say you are categorically wrong and your little AGW flat earth religion is debunked and gone.

    • Knemon says:

      10:38am | 26/04/11

      @ Ryan - With all due respect Ryan, you were telling us recently that the worlds temperatures had dropped by ten degrees over the last three decades…is this more facts?

    • The Redman says:

      11:07am | 26/04/11

      The problem you have, Ryan, is that the only “reputable” scientists you believe in are scientists who deny man affected climate change. The vast majority of scientists who theorise that man does affect the climate, which is common sense in my view, are, in you estimation in any case, not reputable. You also ignore that there are already dozens of countries that have a price on carbon, including India and China and all of Europe and Scandanavia. This country, in continuing an argument on the veracity of man induced climate change, is behind the times, not in front of it. This argument in most countries across the planet has ended. Australia, unfortunately, continues to have this pointless debate, fuelled largely by selfish, conservative self interest groups which have an agenda designed purely on scare tactics.

      In any case, just what does the Coalition stand for on this issue? It is impossible to determine whether they accept the science on climate change or they don’t. The Coalition merely opposes. Everything. Everything that the Government tries to implement, the Coaltion opposes. They very often don’t even have either an alternative nor a proper argument for opposing a particular policy. They oppose for the sake of opposition. The Coalition’s successful policy is to pander to the lowest common demoninator in our society. Again unfortunately, there is a surfiet of lowest common demoninators in this country.

    • Ryan says:

      11:36am | 26/04/11

      @Knemon: bullshit Knemon and you know it, this is the link I posted http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/ and I admitted to the typo. Pretty pathetic attempt there, then again I guess you AGW flat earth believers will jump on anything.

    • Ryan says:

      11:46am | 26/04/11

      @The Redman: “The vast majority of scientists who theorise that man does affect the climate” which ones. Do post your qualifications and scientific studies or those of these “vast majority” that refute the claims made by these two IPCC scientists plus many more NASA climate scientists like Dr Roy Spencer.
      In fact how about this The Redman, how about you post me a link to just one piece of peer reviewed research that shows a human marker in climate change.
      There isn’t one scientist that is willing to stake a claim on a human marker in climate change, so much for that mythical “vast majority”.
      Keep spinning mate, one day you might even believe the earth is flat too.

    • Ryan says:

      11:55am | 26/04/11

      @The Redman: “The Coalition’s successful policy is to pander to the lowest common demoninator in our society. Again unfortunately, there is a surfiet of lowest common demoninators in this country. ” could you be any more pompous and offensive? How dare you call the average hard working men and women of Australia the “lowest common denominator” at least this “lowest common denominator” as you so disgustingly put it would know how to spell “denominator” not to mention having a basic grasp of the principle i before e except after c. Put bluntly, that “lowest common denominator” who you have no problems sending broke and destroying their jobs are clearly better than you flat earth AGW believers.

    • Northern Steve says:

      02:57pm | 26/04/11

      @Ryan, do you want to post some evidence that no reputable scientist says that AGW is bullshit?  I think you’ll find it news to many reputable scientists.  BTW Dr Roy Spencer is ex NASA, and while he has removed it from his website, he is also a believer in Creationism - some reputable scientist, hey?
      That link to Dr Spencer’s website isn’t working, but I think you mean this one, which does show a very clear trending increase of temperature since 1979, which corresponds nicely to increases in CO2 emissions.
      If you read Dr Spencer’s website, he does have some nice theories about possible negative feedback cycles in our ecosystem which may counter human-induced warming, but as of yet he has no evidence.

      Even his ‘anomoly’ is not an anomoly.  If you run a line of best fit through the low points on the graph, it runs pretty much parallel to the trend line, so divergence from the trend hasn’t really changed over the past 30 years either.

    • Northern Steve says:

      02:59pm | 26/04/11

      In fact, looking at that graph again (I love that graph - it is so often used by people who have no idea how to interpret it, other than pointing at the workd ‘anomoly’), if you had looked at it at this point last year, the temperature change was significantly above the trend line - you could have looked at the graph and yelled ‘holy crap’, and packed your bags for Mars.

    • Ryan says:

      06:56pm | 26/04/11

      @Northern Steve: and so do you dispute what the IPCC scientists say?
      Clearly the centered 13 month average shows a minuscule (less than 0.1 of a degree) which in turn shows nothing to do with carbon dioxide.
      See Northern Steve, if you are going to counter with some absolute rubbish I expect that you might actually provide me the direct evidence, you know that human marker, that 10 grand you can win.
      Until there is actual proof of a human marker, just one, any one will do, this whole AGW thing remains nothing more than a debunked theory.

    • Ryan says:

      07:13pm | 26/04/11

      @Northern Steve: “no reputable scientist says that AGW is bullshit?  I think you’ll find it news to many reputable scientists.” which ones Steve? Name them.

    • Northern Steve says:

      10:05pm | 26/04/11

      @Ryan
      Here is a link to an article published by CNN of a survey run by the University of Illinois, asking over 3000 scientists of a range of disciplines as to whether they accept that AGW is real.  97% said they do.  Would you like an individual list of names, or will this suffice?
      I’m not sure what your question about the 13 month average says, it is not a complete sentence.  Looking back at the trend line of the 13 month average though, there appears to be about a 0.4C rise over 40 years, which would extrapolate to 1C in 100 years, which is certainly significant.
      What level of proof do you need before you accept AGW?  There is already statistical correlation (such as the graph we’re looking at), and there is scientific causality (CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and an increase will cause a rise in temp).  This is usually considered enough in science, at least until a better explanation that matches the data better has been produced.
      Now, I’ve provided evidence of scientists supporting AGW.  Where are yours that deny it?

    • Northern Steve says:

      10:17pm | 26/04/11

      Correction: 82% of scientists from all fields accept that humans play a role in global warming.  97% of climatologists accept that humans play of role in global warming.  I think Ryan’s statement was that no reputable scientist claimed that humans had a hand in global warming.  He will not find a statement to support that.
      By the way, if you read Professor Christy’s work, he doesn’t state the AGW is crap.  he agrees that humans have some effect on current warming trends.  He just puts the amount of warming at the lower end of the scale.
      Prof Lindzen may say that there will be no environmental benefit from a carbon tax, but that is different to saying that we are not having an effect on the climate (which he does agree with).
      You seem to be all over the place with this Ryan.  Maybe go back to Spencer’s graph, and have a look at the overall increasing trend of the red line before you say much more.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      11:35pm | 26/04/11

      The world has been getting warmer since the ICE AGE, get over it. As changes have happened animals have adapted or died out. Some ancient cities are now under the sea, why can’t you accept change as a good thing. If the seas rise,so what, just dont build on seafronts or tidal rivers, puny man can’t controll nature

    • acotrel says:

      03:22am | 27/04/11

      @The Redman - ‘surfeit of lowest common denominators in this country’?
      Are you into eugenics and euthanasia?

    • Ryan says:

      10:45am | 27/04/11

      @Northern Steve: lets survey the same bunch and see how many “believe” without proof in the sky fairy.
      Just because someone believes in something does not make it real.
      Still not one shred of evidence of a human marker in climate change there Steve, still waiting.

    • Ryan says:

      10:49am | 27/04/11

      @Northern Steve: and while we are at random scientist surveys, the petition project had 31000 scientists that did NOT “believe” in AGW. Guess there are more that don’t “believe” than do. Try again please, evidence is so much more reputable than just “believing” in something.
      I “believe” in aliens, so we should really be funneling millions upon millions of dollars to put together a defense strategy against an alien invasion.

    • The Original Oz says:

      11:30am | 27/04/11

      @Northern Steve - “and packed your bags for Mars.”

      That would be no good Northern Steve. Studies (by the Russian Space Agency and confirmed by NASA) done over the past 10 years have shown that Mars’ climate is mirroring that of Earth’s. Polar caps are melting and similar climatic temperature shifts. The cause has been identified as probably being due to the current levels of solar activity. No human induced Co2 level increases there but the same shifting patterns. For all the believers in Human Induced Climate change - Are our Co2 emissions triggering this?? If it is a natural process on Mars then why is it not a natural process on Earth? Should Gillard prepare a bold new tax to combat Martian Climate Change so that all Australians can get the warm/fuzzy that you believers want from the proposed new tax?

      see http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

      For his full (peer reviewed) paper go to http://climaterealists.com/?id=4254

    • Northern Steve says:

      08:33pm | 27/04/11

      @Ryan. I never said believe, I said accept on the basis of the proof provided. Put up a link to your petition and I’ll point out the flaws. Apart from anything else there is a world of difference between a randomly selected sample like the one I linked and a petition like the one you mentioned.
      Please specify what level of proof you require before you accept climate change. I suspect you can’t answer that because you don’t really understand the science.
      @TOO No one is denying that climate change is a natural phenomenon. What science shows us is that we are accelerating change by rapidly increasing the level of CO2. Funny how you deny we have enough evidence here on earth to support climate change, yet a few readings on Mars makes it all so clear to you, obviously because it backs up your preconceived notions.
      I never said anything about the governments carbon tax. Thats a separate debate altogether.

    • Northern Steve says:

      08:37pm | 27/04/11

      @Robert. The changes since the last ice age have not been a steady rise, it’s been up and down in a narrow range. It’s the projected increase in rate of change that will make it hard for animals and plants to adapt. If the climate changes at the rate at which it is expected to do, thee is potential for another period of mass extinction.

    • Ryan says:

      10:21pm | 27/04/11

      @Northern Steve: “Please specify what level of proof you require before you accept climate change.” I feel like I keep repeating myself here but you just don’t seem to want to listen since the facts clearly don’t match your “belief”.
      What level of proof do I want Steve, just one thing mate, one real easy thing, definitive proof of a human marker in climate change, just one, shouldn’t be hard in all that so-called “proof” you have been provided. It must be there right?
      As for not understanding the science, well Steve, I am in fact a scientist I would say I am more than understanding of science, what I am against is this complete blasphemy in the name of “science” you call Anthropogenic Global Warming. Science is not with you, you can claim it all you like but science is black and white and when you spout on about some grey area with zero proof it just shows you don’t have a clue what you are talking about, let alone have a shred of evidence to back your claim.

      I lay the challenge now before you, post just one piece of peer reviewed evidence that shows a human marker in climate change. Please don’t waste my time with “believe” and other bs like that, I want definitive peer reviewed proof, that is all that is acceptable to science.

    • Northern Steve says:

      09:23pm | 28/04/11

      @Ryan, if you’re a scientist then you must be a crap one as you cNt read a graph, don’t understand the difference between random survey and a petition, and don’t understand that many areas of science are grey, not black and white. Many theories across many fields of science are based on best idea based on currently available evidence, and open for review pending better evidence. You can’t even specify what sort of proof you would require in order to test human-induced warming. What is this Hunan marker you want to see?  Some little old man with his hand on a thermostat?  How about the quantity of CO2 we continue to add to the atmosphere each year?  Isn’t that a marker of human activity?  Unless you can actually specify what the test is of a theory, you might as well stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and start singing ‘la la la’ at the top of your voice.
      Well done on being a scientist. Send your degree back to kelloggs, it’s useless.

    • Northern Steve says:

      10:37pm | 28/04/11

      @TOO,
      Read the two links, and I have to say they are not particularly convincing.
      The first one, regarding mars warming, seems to an idea put forward by one scientists for which National Geographic could not find another supporting scientist, instead offered a number of other alternative ideas rather than changes in the sun’s output that on the face of it seem just as likely.  Given that is based on a minimal amount of data, it seems a bit over the top to suggest there is enough there to counter the reams of evidence and support by scientists for AGW.
      The second site is by nature biased, and starts froma position that AGW is not real. Ignoring that, it lists five main contributors to research on the site.  Of the five, only three are scientists, and all of them retired.  One of the others is a lawyer with an interest in weather.  The fifth claims to be a Nobel Peace prize winner.  And so he is.  He received it as a member of the UN Peacekeeping force.  One of tens of thousands, perhaps?  Seems to gild the lily a bit.  The site is stretching for credibility.
      Did a bit of research into Piers Corbyn, and it seems he has had little peer reviewed published work, and recently made some claims about predicted severe weather patterns in NW Europe in 2007 and 2008, most of which turned out to be wrong.  As I was living in the Netherlands at the time, I remember the warnings of severe storm cells and the panic they caused, to come to nothing in the end.
      These are not credible sources.

    • Northern Steve says:

      10:42pm | 28/04/11

      @Yuri,
      That’s the survey I mentioned earlier.  The 97% of 77 scientists refers specifically to climatologists in the group.  Of the other scientists, 82% accept the evidence pointing to AGW.  People may go on about 97% because that is the group of people who have researched and understood this topic most deeply.  There’s nothing sinister about this.

    • Super D says:

      06:38am | 26/04/11

      Ged will be a senator soon enough.  She’s just paying the government for her taxpayer funded meal ticket.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:46am | 26/04/11

      Gilltard, hehehe, she is dumber stand she looks. Looks like hair dye she uses needs some kind of health warning, seems to have cause brain damage. Someone wake up Roxon and see if she cares.

      Let the good times role, Australians are in for a real carbon tax treat HaHa smile

    • John A Neve says:

      07:37am | 26/04/11

      AtM,

      I always claimed you repeated yourself, now I have the proof. Love your laugh though.

    • TimB says:

      09:39am | 26/04/11

      If you were a little bit more knowledgeable John, you’d know that sometimes the Punch glitches up and posts things twice. It’s happened to many of us.

    • Against the Man says:

      09:47am | 26/04/11

      John A Neve, it seems you truly are an empty vessel smile

      John A Neve it seems you truly are an empty vessel smile

    • John A Neve says:

      02:14pm | 26/04/11

      AtM,

      Your posts sadly reflect your worth. Pathetic is the most apt discription, do you ever get anything right?

    • John A Neve says:

      02:18pm | 26/04/11

      TimB,

      If I was a “knowledgeable” as you, I’d be too scared to post. But good on you, at least you and AtM understand each other.

    • Against the Man says:

      04:03pm | 26/04/11

      John, the pathetic one is you. You can’t debate or argue your point. so you post meaningless insults. You get beaten down by me and others, crawl away and hide and than reappear to ‘act’ tough so as to regain some shred of manhood. You still can’t tell me what the immoral Gilltard and her government have done that is of great significance to this country. And the majority of comments seem to ask that same question! What the hell is this government doing? And The Punch articles seem to highlight this government’s many weakness. You can’t seem to see that me and others are responding and cheering these various articles, if this mob was doing a great job, defending them would be effortless.

      But we do need nitwits like you and your weak comments to help us. You don’t seem to realise your pathetic responses and non-responses do more harm to the ALP cause.

      Later loser smile

      ps: Now that big business is on the Gilltard enemy list, this government has done far worse than even I could ever imagine.

    • John A Neve says:

      05:44pm | 26/04/11

      AtM,
      Your post 04:03hrs, highlights the real you. Childish, repetitive and devoid of any substance.
      Just for once AtM, try to say something meaningfull, your monotonous blubbering is childish and a waste of space.

    • Paulb says:

      06:39pm | 27/04/11

      Neve you really are just a nasty little man.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:46am | 26/04/11

      Gilltard, hehehe, she is dumber stand she looks. Looks like hair dye she uses needs some kind of health warning, seems to have cause brain damage. Someone wake up Roxon and see if she cares.

      Let the good times role, Australians are in for a real carbon tax treat HaHa smile

    • Rosie says:

      12:56pm | 26/04/11

      Against the Man

      That was funny, the hair dye bit! You are correct because the peroxide in the dye she uses to keep the roots of her hair from turning grey is not only a health hazard to her but to the environment. With all Juliar’s public appearances, boyfriend Tim will need to work on her hair at least once a fortnight to prevent the greys from showing when in front of the cameras. Thus the reason she allows him to tag along while away on long trips.

      Her hair is looking very dull and it is too much hair dye and blow drying all for the sake of vanity! Her skin is looking rather dry and blotchy, too much make up for the cameras

      One thing Tony Abbott has going for him is he isn’t pollutting the environment with constant use of peroxide or wear makeup every day to promote what he believes in and that is Australia doesn’t need a carbon tax to protect the planet from climate change.

    • John A Neve says:

      02:31pm | 26/04/11

      Rosie,
      A svelte, attractive and intelligent person such as yourself, should not try to
      denigrate Julia. At least she has a “boyfriend”,why don’t you give AtM a call,
      he might be desperate.

    • thatmosis says:

      07:14am | 26/04/11

      The ordinary Union member hasnt a chance of getting a qualified deal from any Union leader when you realise that they are all Labor Politicians in waiting. That is too say that they, the Union Leaders,  wont upset the apple cart and offend those that will recommend they come into their ranks. The ordinary member is only their for one reason and that is to raise money to support the Labor party and thats that. It doesnt matter if the labor Policies will send Australia broke, lose jobs or whatever as long as the Union Bosses get what they want and in turn the Labor Party. As for Gillrudd, she is dumber than dog shit with apologies to the dog shit.

    • John says:

      07:46pm | 26/04/11

      Northern Steve still my question was not answered and how can you use only 40 years of data on a planet that has been around for 1,000’s of years. It is stated that they used this data to verify that we are causing an effect on the enviroment by pollution.

      I would like to see the effect in the reduction of trees and the increasing of human population on the enviroment as more human are in the world and less trees there for sure will be an effect as we expell CO2 which tree convert to O2.

      Is that cleat enough for you as there is no way of proving that we have effected the enviroment through power plants. If you want to charge a carbon tax then you better charge it on our breathing as well an dont forget, according to these scientists the largest effect comes from methane gas that is released through cows and farm animals yet the farming sector will be excempt from the tax. hmmmm

    • Steve Putnam says:

      08:49pm | 26/04/11

      You’ve just apologised to dog shit on a website that has a wide ranging audience. You’re probably too thick to realise what an utter fool you’ve made of yourself.

    • Northern Steve says:

      10:30pm | 26/04/11

      John, I think you’re replying to the wrong post.
      There is more than 40 years of data.  The last 40 odd years is the most accurate and comprehensive, but people have been recording temperatures for a couple of hundred years, rainfall for longer, and we can collect data on atmospheric composition going back thousands of years and much longer using ice core samples.  Atmospheric composition can also be inferred from plenty of other markers in fossil records and rocks, some of which go back billions of years, for a planet which is about 4-5 billion years old.  However, we cerftainly have enough data through several ice ages to have a pretty good idea about how this works.  If you don’t already understand this, then I suggest you do some of your own reading as there is no way I can condense enough of it here to satisfy your curiosity.
      The effect on the earth’s climate can be seen in the massive areas of desertification in Africa, the Americas and Australia, places where there used to be forests, now just sand.  Some of it is natural, some of it human clearing, some from climate change.  you need to understand the science more deeply I suspect before you are able to even understand the questions you ask.
      The construction of any carbon tax is a whole different kettle of fish, and the incompetence of a government in putting together a reasonable and comprehensible package to reduce carbon emissions has nothing to do with whether climate change is occuring or not.

    • Ryan says:

      02:24pm | 28/04/11

      @Nothern Steve: “40 years of data” and yet not one human marker in all that 40 years of data showing humans are responsible for climate change.
      Nope, 40 years of data and not one shred of evidence, unbelievable hey!

    • Northern Steve says:

      09:27pm | 28/04/11

      Now you’re just repeating yourself Ryan. We are changing the composition of the atmosphere by our industrial actions. Sounds like a ‘marker’ to me.

    • Agent Theory says:

      07:20am | 26/04/11

      Here on The Plonk, I learnt long ago to read bylines first.

      Sorts the Plonkers from the genuine very well.

      Just for fun, I then read on here, looking for the first matching red flag.

      Only reached the 2nd par and there it was.  All too predictable really.

      “Belief in the climate science”. Groan.

      Not again? Yes, the Plonker’s sneaky little bit of loaded window dressing pops up straight away.

      It isn’t a matter of belief.

      Its the sheer weight of 40 years worth of carefully gathered, considered, published evidence on ‘000s of years of climate record, from ice cores to atmospheric satellite data.

      The rest of this Plonker’s piece is the usual mishmash of artfully loaded drivel dressed up with the odd bit of pseudo-expert babble.

      Despite having similar policies on carbon pricing in the past, this Plonker’s own Party has now succeeded in holding up climate policy now for some 15 years.

      15 years when we could have been doing something useful. 

      That’s right. These Plonkers have now sucked up between maybe a third or a half of the likely window in which we can help limit warming to something manageable. All to make a political point.

      Of course, he could have tried to explain his own Party’s position. Nah.  Not a bit of it. 

      Seems he thought it better, while he’s indulging in free self-advertising here on The Plonk, to spend all his free space slagging off someone else’s piece.

      That’s just how it is here on The Plonk, eh. Yawn.

    • LeftRightOut says:

      08:41am | 26/04/11

      Speaking of plonkers, you’ve certainly proved one thing… you’re an idiot! wink

      The author was actually paraphrasing Ged in reference to “belief”. It actually is about “belief”, insofar as this is simply a pseudo-religious topic now, because the left have made it that way. They saw that as their best chance to hijack the AGW “theory” (yep, still a theory, there’s $10K in ot for you if you can prove it), and they’ve done a stirling job.
      Plonkers like you have bought it hook, line and sinker - hence the idiot handle.

      Your reference to ‘000s of years of ice core blah blah… is simply wrong. You either lie, or are massively ill informed.

    • Richard says:

      08:51am | 26/04/11

      You are raving. The article in no way inferred disagreement with any climate science whatsoever. Go back to grade 2 reading comprehension moron.

    • Mayday says:

      09:04am | 26/04/11

      “15 years when we could have been doing something useful. “

      After reading this piece of waffle I would suggest you havn’t done anything useful in the last 15 years, you couldn’t have read the piece properly because you fail to understood the message!

      The point you seem to be missing is that a “Carbon Tax”  WILL NOT CHANGE the result of “the sheer weight of 40 years worth of carefully gathered, considered, published evidence on ‘000s of years of climate record, from ice cores to atmospheric satellite data.”

      The point of the article is that the “Climate debate here and globally is really a battle of economic redistribution” based on political lines not genuine science or engineering.

    • Jim says:

      09:10am | 26/04/11

      “Its the sheer weight of 40 years worth of carefully gathered, considered, published evidence on ‘000s of years of climate record, from ice cores to atmospheric satellite data.”

      OK - replace ‘carefully gathered’ with ‘selectively gathered’ and you’re closer to the mark. Also take out the satellite data bit, the satellite data shows no increase in surface temperatures at all, so the cult of climate is sticking with the few dozen ground based monitors that do show an increase (while selectively ignoring the influence the immediate environment has on those readings - like A/C vents, buildings etc).

      You should also qualify your ‘published’ comment to include ‘sponsored’ in there as well…just like all political adverts (which is basically what a climate change paper is) they must include who who authorised and paid for it.

      The rest of your comment is, as you say, Plonk.

    • MarK says:

      09:13am | 26/04/11

      “Its the sheer weight of 40 years worth of carefully gathered, considered, published evidence on ‘000s of years of climate record, from ice cores to atmospheric satellite data.”

      Gosh.

      I bet you wish that actually showed AGW is real. Would sort of make that comment actually mean something. As it stands it just makes you look like a religious zealot in need of justification.

      Keep believing and hold onto that feeling.

    • Comments Plain says:

      01:18pm | 26/04/11

      Agent made excellent points.  Some strong terms there, but reading what Laming claimed, vs what Kearney had actually said, I can see why.

      “Belief in the climate science” is a clearly loaded term, as Laming would well know. LRO wants to trot that out as merely Laming’s paraphrase of Kearney. To be blunt, nonsense. Misleading nonsense.

      Kearney repeatedly remarked on the sheer amount of evidence. Repeatedly, adding she’s no expert.  Laming chose to misrepresent that too, with his throwaway “But ignorance is no excuse “. 

      In fact Kearney explained and repeatedly showed by her examples that, while no expert, she had indeed “read widely and sought advice”. Quite mischievous to tag that as “ignorance”. She’s clearly widely read and accepts the weight of the scientific evidence. I agree with her.

      Others here seem to have read so little on the issue they can pretend that Agent “lied” about ice core analyses, that they have nothing to do with serious climate study, or that somehow they don’t give us longer perspective on climate and CO2. 

      But nothing could be further from the truth. Agent is right again. There’s hundreds of thousands of years of temperature and CO2 data derivable from ice core analyses - as any check of Stern or IPCC or Hansen would show.

      In short, Laming’s is a sloppy and misleading piece. The baiting of Agent that has ensued is sloppier still, some of it misleading, some misinformed, some below the belt.

      Debate on climate policy and science can only improve from here. I’d not be looking to Laming to make much of a contribution, if I were you.

      Time to get back to work.

    • MarK says:

      02:32pm | 26/04/11

      “Agent made excellent points”

      This is a joke right?

      OIC. I read the rest. You were serious.

      Good luck with that.

    • stevie p says:

      07:31am | 26/04/11

      Ged’s article was an insult to thinking Australians and breathtaking in its niave footplodding behind the Labor banner. It is this kind of blind devotion to “foot binding” rationale that staggers me.

    • persephone says:

      07:49am | 26/04/11

      Yep, unlike this free thinking, unideological, unpartisan contribution by Mr Laming.

    • jf says:

      11:48am | 26/04/11

      persephone says:07:49am | 26/04/11

      “Yep, unlike this free thinking, unideological, unpartisan contribution by Mr Laming.”

      The difference is that Laming is doing the job he’s paid for.  Kearney is using other people’s money to further her own ambitions. Some would call that fraud.

    • persephone says:

      07:41am | 26/04/11

      Another author who thinks that using fancy phraseology will disguise the paucity of his argument.

      Laming’s arguments are all over the shop, and as a result lacks consistency.

      Look at:

      ‘Blue collar and middle income earners have the most to lose with this approach, but it is a fact lost on the ACTU.’

      Followed by:

      ‘Gillard’s approach risks disproportionately hurting low-income earners…’

      He then says that the only way to avoid the later is through compensation, and then slams this as wealth redistribution.

      So not only can’t he make up his mind who carbon pricing will impact on the most, he can’t make up his mind whether compensating people for these impacts is good or bad.

      Laming obvioulsy thinks that climate change is real and should be tackled.

      But he doesn’t have a solution.

      Firstly, calling Abbott’s plan a market based solution is simply laughable.

      It’s classic socialism.

      In Laming’s words, it will be:

      ‘Funded through existing consolidated revenue mechanisms and waste reduction…’

      In other words, the goverrnment pays, using taxpayers’ money.

      ’ Abbott’s direct and verifiable purchase of abatement ...’

      A couple of years ago, this sort of thing was decried by the Liberal party as ‘picking winners’.

      Far from letting market forces work things out, ‘picking winners’ means that the government decides what’s going to work and what isn’t.

      So Laming believes that there should be action on climate change. But he believes the form of this action should be determined and paid for by the government, rather than by letting market forces do their work.

      The real clincher?

      The argument for the government’s proposal was put forward by a union leader, someone who, admittedly, has strong connections with the government but isn’t actually part of it.

      The Opposition’s reply is presented by an MP. Not a business leader, not another union leader, appalled by Ged’s supposed neglect of her memberships’ interests, but a fairly lowly backbencher.

      That’s because no reputable ecoomist would touch this with a bargepole. The Opposition can’t find one who thinks their policy is better than the government’s, despite great efforts on their part to do so.

      So the government can find support for its proposal from outside of its own ranks. The Opposition can’t.

    • Super D says:

      09:05am | 26/04/11

      I look forward to Persephones explanation of how the new temporary protection visas the government is introducing are not really temporary detention visas.

    • Richard says:

      09:12am | 26/04/11

      Hi persephone~ I think you might also qualify as one of those authors using fancy “phraseology” to disguise the"paucity” of your own argument.

      The essential point to be gleaned from Laming’s apparently contradictory statements (well at least in your mind), is that while it is designed to be an exercise in wealth distribution, it won’t work, and blue-collar workers will in actuality be worse off. Why? Because the tax generates such huge churn and involves such extra bureaucratic costs and adds an extra layer of complexity to the economy which is impossible to even predict accurately, let alone compensate for properly.

      Secondly, now you are showing your bias, because Malcolm Turnbull has also described the Direct Action plan as a Market Based mechanism: its not laughable, its a fact.

      I mean, you accuse Abbott of wanting to pick winners, but isn’t that exactly what Gillard will be doing when she decides which middle class families will be compensated and which middle class families won’t be compensated, even if there is only $50 difference in their incomes per week? That certainly sounds like picking winners and losers to me.

      And as for your so-called “clincher”, it is nothing of the sort. Andrew Laming is an already elected MP, Ged is an MP in waiting, so what?. By the time Ged inevitably becomes a Labor backbencher, Laming will be a government minister. What is your point?

      The fact that none of your “reputable economists” will support the Libs common sense direct action plan should actually be a plus if you ask any reasonable observer. “Reputable economists” have been wrong about every thing. EVERY SINGLE THING. According to Peter Schiff, “reputable economists” like Ben Bernanke and co. are the best contrarian indicators in existence, because they have never been right about anything, and whatever they believe will happen, its a dead set guarantee that the exact opposite will happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQdGxh1zDlI&feature=feedf

      The entire profession of economics is so discredited and debunked, that there are only a handful of economists who actually deserve a reputation left in the world. Economists like Peter Schiff and Marc Faber and Steve Keen. Why don’t you go and ask them what they think of the government’s hare-brained tax/cap-and-rort scheme persephone? I guarantee they will tell you how stupid it is.

    • Peter says:

      09:28am | 26/04/11

      Pers you must really be thick if you honestly believe that a Carbon Tax will have any benefit whatsoever.Its been on the table how long now? and still your beloved leaders can’t articulate in plain English how it will benefit the environment and make any changes to the climate.When you find out can you let us all know?

    • Top-hat Hyperion says:

      09:35am | 26/04/11

      A few points.

      1. Simply because one group of people (eg blue collar, middle income earners) will have the most to lose, does not mean that another group (low-income workers) will not be disproportionately impacted. Mr Laming’s points are neither contradictory nor exclusive.

      2. To avoid this disproportionate impact, one of the few tools available to a government imposing policy is compensation. This is not good or bad, this is simply how disproportionate impacts for low income earners are reduced.

      3. This can be seen as wealth re-distribution. Whether you agree with compensation as a policy tool or not, the brunt of any economic policy change is typically designed to be worn by those who can most afford it, which at the most simplistic level is the rich paying for public goods or services that all receive. It’s a system everyone is used to
      (paying tax and all).

      There’s no need to decide if compensation is good or bad policy, as a human being I think everyone can support the compensation of people who truly need it, while at the same time railing against the necessity of ourselves having to contribute more to see it done.

      4. I’d suggest that paying companies not to pollute is not exactly classic socialism, which is the direct allocation of goods to demands. As I understand it in this context, classic socialism would actually require an an ongoing increase in production to meet the (theoretically) unlimited demands of a statewide population

      5. As I understand it, ‘market forces’ have thus far collaborated to destroy the only North American market set up to reduce carbon pollution (The Chicago Climate Exchange). Given the explicit failure of ‘market forces’ to solve the climate problem in the most rampantly capitalistic market in the world, can we all please agree to stop pretending that a purely market based approach is not all that will be necessary?

      6. Attacking the credentials of one author compared to another, and their motivations, isn’t exactly the debating highroad, particularly when both are required to author articles expounding their viewpoint as part of their employment.

      I would argue that in situations where opinions clash, the arguments should be evaluated on the clarity of expression and thought, and on their content and not on something so petty as who signs the paycheck.

    • RichaRD says:

      10:32am | 26/04/11

      Persophone, Top-Hat Hyperion pwned you. Have the good grace to admit as such and retire from this debate.

    • John says:

      11:29am | 26/04/11

      It is interesting to point out that only a hand full of economist actually predicted the fall and the GFC crash. These one been the ones who hedged money with the banks on this fall and reaped millions. Also how many of the economist in Oz have been screaming the housing bubble will burst over the last 5 yrs yet house prices are still high.

      In regards to the carbon tax, do alot of ppl realise the banks are betting on the tax been implemented and the price as well. Once implemented the banks will make a fortune just like those who hedged on the GFC and the collapse of the US market. Also what will stop banks themselves purchasing carbon tax credits then selling them off to foriegn countries. The carbon tax and the idea of carbon credits is a mine field.

      Also one last point how the hell can you take 40 years of gathered data and try to then compare it to 1000 of years data when we know the earth has been around alot longer then that. Also why are the scientist not able to respond to the fact that Australia, Yes Aus was a dry country with not alot of rain for a very long period in its pass or why in Africa many lands were rivers ran are now deserts. Did the pharoahs have coal powered power plants then or not and not to get religous but doesnt the bible a book based on pass events tell of great floods and droughts that happened in the past. Why did these occur, was it man made or is it generally that our planet moves and changes based on things we dont understand. The moon, the sun and other planets effect our planet more then ppl think. Also note the polar points are flipping which is apparently a natural event and no one knows what this effect will have on the earth.

    • persephone says:

      11:31am | 26/04/11

      I was going to, RichaRD, mainly because I get bored going over the same old ground, but…..I accept your challenge!!

      1. And it doesn’t mean they aren’t, either.

      2. Didn’t have a word to say against compensation, and didn’t deny that this is the tool chosen by the government. Not sure what deep point you think you’re making here.

      3. Or it can be seen as compensating those who are likely to experience the most impact of rising prices and have less ability to take actions which will help them minimise these impacts.

      4. Except no one is doing this.

      Socialism is where the government takes over the means of production. Socialism uses the influence of the state to determine the behaviour of individuals and companies within it. It directs business behaviour, rather than letting businesses determine their own best interests.

      So ‘paying companies not to pollute’ would thus be socialist.

      5. Who is arguing for a purely market driven approach? Obviously the fact that there is some government influence over the market in this case means (at least in the initial stages) it isn’t entirely market driven.

      And the carbon price is not the entire package. There is other government money directed towards the development of new technologies, etc.

      6. No, but it’s still interesting that the opposition can’t find an economist who supports their package over the government’s and has to significantly undermine the Opposition’s argument.

    • Top-hat Hyperion says:

      12:56pm | 26/04/11

      Fun and games.

      1. It doesn’t mean they aren’t either…  Aren’t what exactly? You lost me here. My point was that the two issues are independent of each other. The heaviest burden can fall on one group, while another is disproportionately effected.

      2. I read it as implicit in your response that Mr Laming’s confusion over whether or not compensation was good or bad somehow weakened his argument. I was attempting to make clear, in conjunction with my third point, that compensation is a complex issue, with no right or wrong answer. I’d suggest that in illustrating both sides of a complex issue, Mr Laming demonstrates a greater awareness of the policy implications than someone who takes one side to the exclusion of others. I concede on reviw that thiswasn’t clear from my original post.

      3. I noted that it could be seen this way, and in the second paragraph of 3 note that I agree with it from a personal standpoint.

      4. I apologise but you are incorrect. Government interference in industry (in the absence of nationalisation of production) belongs more strongly to the fascist idealogy than the socialist. As there is no discussion of nationalisation, and the federal Government cannot be said to own any large proportion of the industries they are impacting, it is not socialism.

      5. Conceded, with the caveat that these additional programs are rarely mentioned, publicised or discussed, when the package as a whole should be open to inspection.

      6. It is interesting, but off topic. The logical progression of your argument, as I read it was thus (please excuse the paraphrasing)
       
      A)  the supporting opinion piece came from someone who is at least   nominally separate from the Government,

      B)  the rebuttal came directly from inside the Opposition,
      Thus: C) the rebuttal is less worthy as a piece of opinion, and
      D) The Government can find external support, the Opposition can’t.

      As an aside, I cannot name an economist who supports the Opposition’s package. The caveat, unfortunately, is that outside Professor Garnaut, I can’t name an economist who supports the Government’s package either (and as I understand it, Garnaut himself isn’t particularly pleased with what the Government has done to his preferred policy options)

    • persephone says:

      04:17pm | 26/04/11

      Top Hat

      1. I was going by the context. To me, the author seems to be spouting lines, rather than engaging in a coherent argument. In this context, I reasd it as him trying to make sure that everyone is scared they’re going to be suffering the most.

      You’re right in what you say, of course, but I don’t think that reflects the author’s intention.

      2.  And you’d be right there, too. He seems to be arguing that compensation is necessary but at the same time bad.

      I’d agree with you that it depends on how it’s applied. Wasn’t the author’s argument, but.

      Sorry, I don’t think the author’s into complexity. Perhaps you’re seeing more depth to his argument than I am.

      3. Cool. We agree.

      4. Well, I must admit that getting my political ideologies correct has never been one of those things I’ve bothered with. If you want to call Mr Abbott’s plan fascist, I’m happy to agree with you on that too.

      5. I think that most of them have been in place for so long now that they’re part of the landscape.

      Which is, of course, the way we’ll be talking about carbon pricing in a couple of years time.

      6. Yep, you’ve got it. I agree it’s a side issue, but I think it points to a serious problem the Opposition does have, in that no one on the outside (apart from the faithful) actually supports their position.

      Most companies and organisations accept action on carbon pricing as inevitable and are factoring it into their projections - and indeed, have been doing so for some years.

      So the pressure is for certainty, not delay, and the consensus is that there’s a real problem which must be tackled.

      As for your other point: we don’t know exactly what the government’s package is yet - it’s a work in progress.

      But we do know that economists from all over the world, not Australia, are behind its general thrust - that carbon should be priced in some way, and that a trading scheme is the best way of doing it.

      The thrust of the Opposition’s package isn’t supported even in principle.

      (And their numbers don’t add up, but that’s another issue).

      I’m interested that you haven’t picked up on my point about ‘picking winners’. Only a couple of years ago, in a public debate with one of the Opposition MPs, ‘picking winners’ was trotted out as absolute anathema. Yet apparently it’s now OK.

      Your thoughts?

    • RichaRD says:

      04:40pm | 26/04/11

      My challenge to you persephone was actually to admit that you’ve been pwned…. you seem to have an awful lot of trouble with that :/

    • Northern Steve says:

      05:18pm | 26/04/11

      @John,
      To your last paragraph, no one is denying that the climate has changed n the past. We know that it has, and in the record we see a strong correllation between a warming climate and co2. The science behind the warming affect of co2 and other gases is very clear and very well understood and is not in doubt The difference now is that we have the industrial capacity to produce enough co2 to cause the change ourselves. Clear enough?

    • persephone says:

      07:23pm | 26/04/11

      RichaRD

      but, as you see, I haven’t been.

      ThH are having a discussion. In some areas we agree, in others we don’t.

      You wouldn’t understand that - it’s an adult thing.

    • The Original Oz says:

      12:16pm | 27/04/11

      @Northern Steve - you equate increased Co2 as the cause of a warming climate. If you were to actually look at the research done on Ice Cores, and understood the science even marginally,  then you would understand that increased Co2 levels have in the past occurred between 200 and 800 years AFTER a global Warming episode. The current increased Co2 corresponds with these findings as it is now just over 200 years since the end of the Mini-Ice age which occurred after the Medieval Warm Period and commenced in the 1300’s and eventually abated in the 1800’s. 500 years of cold climate that ceased just over 200 years ago. The globe is warming following this period and, as shown by the ice core research, the Co2 levels are increasing. Not AGW but natural process.

    • persephone says:

      12:45pm | 27/04/11

      Original Oz

      have a look at:

      http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature.htm

      Some relevant quotes:


      ‘Earth’s climate has varied widely over its history, from ice ages characterised by large ice sheets covering many land areas, to warm periods with no ice at the poles. Several factors have affected past climate change, including solar variability, volcanic activity and changes in the composition of the atmosphere. Data from Antarctic ice cores reveals an interesting story for the past 400,000 years. During this period, CO2 and temperatures are closely correlated, which means they rise and fall together. However, changes in CO2 follow changes in temperatures by about 600 to 1000 years, as illustrated in figure 1 below. This has led some to conclude that CO2 simply cannot be responsible for current global warming.’

      ‘The only conclusion that can be reached from the observed lag between CO2 and temperatures in the past 400,000 years is that CO2 did not initiate the shifts towards interglacials. To understand current climate change, scientists have looked at many factors, such as volcanic activity and solar variability, and concluded that CO2 and other greenhouse gases are the most likely factor driving current climate change. This conclusion is not based on the analysis of past climate change, though this provides key insights into the way climate responds to different forcings and adds weight to the several lines of evidence that strongly support the role of greenhouse gases in recent warming.’

      As I have said before, in past climate events there have been other players. In this case, there isn’t.

      CO2 wasn’t a driving factor in past climate change events but that does not mean it isn’t in this one.

      (It’s a bit like arguing that people didn’t die in car accidents two centuries ago therefore deaths today cannot be attributed to car accidents).

    • CJ Morgan says:

      07:41am | 26/04/11

      I agree that unions should desist from the special pleading about the proposed carbon tax that we’ve seen lately.  So should Liberal apologists and deniers.

      The government should grow some balls and just push their legislation through after July, ignoring the inevitable bleating from the business as usual crowd.  They were elected to govern for the good of all Australians, regardless of inevitable and often mindless opposition from those who lost the last election.

      They should just get on with it.  Forget the focus groups, spurious online polls and endless special pleading from sectoral interests.

      Just do it, Julia and Co.

    • Mikko says:

      09:32am | 26/04/11

      Maye we should have a $10k challenge for the first to prove the Labor government has managed any major legislation without major balls-ups, hmmm let’s see, Grocery Watch, Fuel pricing/ Petrol Commissioner, Pink Batts, School Halls, East Timor temporary detention centre .... nope, I give up.

    • TimB says:

      09:50am | 26/04/11

      Why do you insist on contradicting yourself?

      This:

      “The government should grow some balls and just push their legislation through after July, ignoring the inevitable bleating from the business as usual crowd. “

      Does not gel with this:

      “They were elected to govern for the good of all Australians,”

      Governing for the good of all Australians means NOT subjecting them to a useless and pointless tax.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      10:42am | 26/04/11

      I see that Mikko is maintaining his usual puerile standard of debate.  No wonder he’s such an Abbott fan.

      @ TimB - I’m not contradicting myself at all.  In my considered opinion, the introduction of a carbon tax would be for the long term good of all Australians.  If you disgree you can express your disapproval at the next election.

      It’s called “democracy”.  You know, the political system where people vote and a government is formed by those who got the most votes.  Sometimes governments have to formulate legislation that is unpopular, particularly among those who didn’t vote for them.

      Strangely enough, it is exactly that sort of legislation that tends to earn them respect retrospectively, even if it costs them government in the short term.

    • jf says:

      12:05pm | 26/04/11

      CJ Morgan, I going to put to you the same question that I put to alcotrel the other day and to which I got no response.

      Just what is are “apologists and deniers”?

      I believe that global warming exists in 2011, as it has for millenium.

      I don’t believe that mankind is responsible for global warming any more than mankind was responsible for global warming when it was happening before mankind existed.

      I beieve that mankind should do something about the general state of the planet.

      I don’t believe that a carbon tax will solve anything.

      So far as I can tell, you are applying the term “appologist and denier” term broadly to include people who may or may not believe in global warming, and may even believe that mankind is responsible, but don’t believe that a carbon tax will solve the problem.

      Am I an appologiest and denier? And, if so, what is it that I am denying. After all, both terms have parallels with those who were initially apologists for the Nazis and then deniers that the holocaust happended. What manner of evil is it that the apologist are excusing and the deniers denying?

      It’s pretty robust, dark language you are using CJ Morgan. You need to either defend it or be exposed as an ideologically lazy, historically ignorant bigot.

    • SueB says:

      12:51pm | 26/04/11

      @ CJ Morgan - ” I’m not contradicting myself at all.  In my considered opinion, the introduction of a carbon tax would be for the long term good of all Australians.  If you disgree you can express your disapproval at the next election.”

      I think you will find many people agreed that there would be No Carbon Tax under a government led by Julia Gillard, as she directly told them so. 

      So, it stand to reason that those same voters should be given the opportunity to express their disapproval to the Proposed Carbon Tax (and the lie that was told) before legislation is enacted, does it not?

    • Ben81 says:

      01:02pm | 26/04/11

      I usually ignore anyone who uses the word “bleating” and tries to give people a lecture on democracy that wasn’t asked for or needed, but this part is interesting -
      “In my considered opinion, the introduction of a carbon tax would be for the long term good of all Australians.  If you disgree you can express your disapproval at the next election.”
      So…what actual impact will this have on climate change that justifies making Australian products more expensive?  (I think climate change is still the reason this is being sold to us, isn’t it?)  It’s kind of important, either you come back and show me it will have an impact or this extreme measure isn’t justified, the end. 
      Australia completely shutting down right this second won’t have any impact, so don’t even bother.

      And if we disagree are we not free to talk about it, even though people like you may not like it?  We’re even talking about something that was specifically and explicitly ruled out during the election campaign, go be smug somewhere else.  If you can’t handle reading opinions you don’t want to hear there’s plenty of other places you can go for that.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      01:47pm | 26/04/11

      @ jf:

      “Dark language”?  Hardly, particularly in comparison to much that is bandied about here..

      An apologist is someone who promotes or defends something in writing - hence Andrew Laming is an apologist for the Liberals. 

      In the context of AGW, a denier is someone who denies that the climate is warming and that human activities are contributing to this warming - hence you are a denier in this context.

      I hope this helps smile

    • CJ Morgan says:

      02:17pm | 26/04/11

      @ SueB and Ben81:

      I certainly didn’t mean that you can’t bleat as much as you like now.  My point is that the government should simply note that there is considerable opposition to the carbon tax among the ignorant and obtuse component of the electorate, and get on with introducing the enabling legislation.

      You’ve shown that no amount of information and argument will persuade you, so the only thing that “debate” now achieves is to delay the inevitable.  Like I said, it’s a democracy, so you can express your ultimate displeasure at the ballot box next election if you want.

      Meanwhile, bleat on if it makes you feel any better.  Just don’t expect anybody who matters to notice.

    • jf says:

      03:28pm | 26/04/11

      CJ Morgan says:01:47pm | 26/04/11

      ““Dark language”?  Hardly, particularly in comparison to much that is bandied about here..”

      That you reckon that drawing analogies to the holocaust is a reasonable way to address your opponents says all that needs to be said about whether or not you are able to take a rational, dispassionate view of this.

      “An apologist is someone who promotes or defends something in writing - hence Andrew Laming is an apologist for the Liberals.”

      By that defnition then, so are you. After all, you are promoting and defending the carbon tax.

      “In the context of AGW, a denier is someone who denies that the climate is warming and that human activities are contributing to this warming - hence you are a denier in this context.”

      I’m not denying that the climate is warming at all. I do believe that it is unlikely that humans are responsible based on facts such as (a) the global climate has been changing (warming and cooling for millenium) and (b) there is no sound, consistent scientific evidence that humans are responsible.

      You on the other hand buy the bogus science, don’t give a rats for the consequences of poor policy and are on such flimsy ground that you resort to drawing analogies between those that disagree with you and Nazis. I would note that the Nazis were environmentalists to.

    • Ben81 says:

      03:30pm | 26/04/11

      So CJ’s not interested in discussing (well, isn’t capable of discussing) the justification of the tax to change the weather that won’t change the weather that was ruled out during the election campaign and said ‘bleat’ a couple more times.  Everyone with concerns is just wrong, can’t say why or address those concerns though.
      Congratulations on being another illustration of the weakest minds on the internet.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      04:48pm | 26/04/11

      @ jf:

      Who said anything about the Holocaust?  You deny the human contribution to global warming, despite overwhelming evidence to support that reality, hence you’re an AGW denier.  No need to bleat about spurious analogies.

      And I can assure you I’m not a Liberal apologist smile

      @ Ben81:

      Correct - I’m not interested in “discussing” AGW and/or the carbon tax with AGW deniers.  It’s just a waste of time and effort which should be directed towards beginning to ameliorate anthropogenic global warming.

      Like I said, the government should stop farting around trying to please everybody and get on with it.  People like you will never support measures to address AGW, so you really don’t matter in this debate any more.

    • Ben81 says:

      06:29pm | 26/04/11

      @CJ “Correct - I’m not interested in “discussing” AGW and/or the carbon tax with AGW deniers.”
      Show me one time i’ve ever ‘denied’ AGW or said I don’t believe it’s happening.  All I said was that this extreme measure is unjustified because it will make Australian products more expensive (just for starters) without actually doing anything about climate change, not the slightest tiny remotely measurable thing, and that’s a fact.  It was also, again, specifically ruled out during the election campaign.

      All you can think of to say about this is pretty much “well you’re not going to change your mind about that, you’re ignorant and your opinion doesn’t matter”.  Very weak.

    • jf says:

      07:00pm | 26/04/11

      “Who said anything about the Holocaust?”

      Don’t be a pathetic coward. You throw around terms like apologist and denier with their obvious parallels to the Second World War and the Holocaust and then feign innocence when challenged.

      At least have the integrity to take accountability for your statements and the courage of your convictions.

      “despite overwhelming evidence to support that reality”

      If there was overwhelming evidence, I wouldn’t discredit AGW. If there was overwhelming evidence, thousands of independent, eminent scientists wouldn’t discredit AGW. That AGW is far from certain does not, therefore, make those that don’t accept it deniers.

    • Mikko says:

      08:03pm | 26/04/11

      C’mon Chad, even you should be able to do better than this: “My point is that the government should simply note that there is considerable opposition to the carbon tax among the ignorant and obtuse component of the electorate, and get on with introducing the enabling legislation”.
      Maybe like calling an election on the issue so all you highly intelligent Greenies can see what all the ignorant and obtuse (non-brain-washed) voters really think :(

    • CJ Morgan says:

      07:27am | 27/04/11

      @ Ben81:

      My apology - you’re quite right, you haven’t actually denied AGW.  However, you apparently don’t know the difference between weather and climate.  At this stage of the debate, that definitely places you in the “ignorant” sector of the electorate.

      In the remote possibility that you’re not being obtuse, the purpose of the carbon tax is as a precursor to the establishment of an emissions trading scheme.  It is not an end in itself, rather it’s a start to Australia doing its bit to start to ameliorate AGW.

      @ jf:

      You need to buy a dictionary.  Your faux-indignation doesn’t alter the fact that you’re in denial about AGW.

      @ Mikko:

      We don’t need an election to hear what the ignorant and obtuse have to say.  All one has to do is to do is visit certain Internet forums to get a very good idea of the depths of wilful ignorance out there about AGW. 

      Indeed, I visit your ‘Just Grounds’ site occasionally just to see what the bitter and twisted redneck deniers are saying.

    • jf says:

      01:19pm | 27/04/11

      “We don’t need an election to hear what the ignorant and obtuse have to say”

      You represent everything that is obnoxious and unproductive about this debate. You don’t see room for alternative views or opinions and you draw analogies between those that don’t agree with you and Nazis.

      “You need to buy a dictionary.  Your faux-indignation doesn’t alter the fact that you’re in denial about AGW.”

      If you don’t understand the historical relevance of the word denier you are either a fool or a liar.

      On historical analogies let me draw one for you.

      Those that sit in your camp are the equivalent of the bishops and cardinals in medieval Europe.

      Anyone that questions the existence of your god is a heathen and shunned. Anyone who denies the existence of your god is a witch and must be burned. Anyone that gets in your way, is summarily convicted and removed from being a problem.

      Your evidence is about as compelling as the ‘proof’ of God’s wrath in the form of the plague.

      Like medieval Europe, just as religion made no allowance for democracy, nor do the AGW proponents believe democracy has a role.

      Like the Roman Catholic cardinals, the high priests of AGW expect to live an indulgent and hedonistic lifestyle funded by the poor masses. For, like the cardinals, they, in their minds, are their unquestioned intellectual superiors and obedience should be spontaneous and unquestioned.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:39pm | 27/04/11

      CJ “However, you apparently don’t know the difference between weather and climate.  At this stage of the debate, that definitely places you in the “ignorant” sector of the electorate.”

      Huh?  Last time i checked the rate of climate change was measured by taking averages of variations over time.  This tax will not make any measurable difference to the trends at all.  It will also not make any difference to extreme weather events.

      And could you possiblty be more condescending and full of yourself if you tried, seriously?  For someone who isn’t even capable of doing any more than just calling other people names and brushing off what they say without addressing any of it you don’t even have a reason to act that way, how pathetic.

    • jf says:

      02:00pm | 27/04/11

      “However, you apparently don’t know the difference between weather and climate”

      Furthermore, I’m not suggesting that climate change doesn’t exist.

      Clearly the only what that you can see the AGW proponents making any progress in this debate is to cast them as heathens and witches and to accuse them of not believing in something that the clearly do.

      Witch, witch, burn him he’s a witch.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      06:20pm | 27/04/11

      Heh - like I said, we don’t need to have an election to hear what the ignorant and obtuse have to say.

      QED smile

    • Ben81 says:

      07:30pm | 27/04/11

      That’s a bit better CJ, you still aren’t able to contribute anything apart from childish insults but at least you’ve managed to condense it into one short sentence this time.  I guess we can’t expect much more from the likes of you.
      May I suggest you try sticking to topics where you aren’t out of your depth next time.

    • jf says:

      09:38am | 28/04/11

      QED?

      Do you even know what this means?

    • Mark says:

      04:27pm | 29/04/11

      @CJ Morgan,

      I like you mate.

      I am tired of listening to these ignorant morons who only read the 1% of scientific studies that agree with their point of view.

      FYI morons: Yes that 1% makes several 1000 scientists who think climate change is natural but compare this to the millions who believe that man is the major contributor to recent warming of the Earth.

      Something needs to be done - I hope the current Government ignores the dubbos and gets on with the job.

      Its the future of humanity we are talking about peoples and when it comes to action on such things there is nothing wrong with setting the example.

    • tony says:

      08:05am | 26/04/11

      What a fickle lot the unions are.  6 months ago and beyond you couldn’t shut Howes and co up about climate change, how ‘real’ it was and we would all die next week if the carbon tax wasn’t brought in tomorrow.  Now with the turnaround in the polls all of a sudden it’s just not that urgent and only now does he start thinking about his members ‘wellbeing’. 

      They have been too busy supporting those extreme greenies to be worried about anyone else.  And I’d say Howes and co are now more worried about their jobs than their members well being.  And their political masters are heading the same way as NSW did, into the political abyss.  Like NSW labor they let things like the price of power and the costs of living sky rocket. 

      They didn’t lift a finger to stop it and either tried to make out that the rises were normal, or they tried to blame it on the opposition.  But there are no John Howards to blame anymore.  This is all labors bunny.  And it’s really starting to show in the polls.  And where was the unions concern when the price of everything started going up?  They were too busy trying to push it up even more with this carbon tax crap. 

      Whether there is an election in 2 weeks or 2 years, like here in NSW, people have stopped listening to labor.  Everything they have touched has turned to crap. 

      Prime Minister Tony Abbott.  Has a nice ring to it.  Whether in 2 weeks or 2 years time, the unions and labor better start getting used to hearing it.  As for Turncoat leading the liberals, forget it, won’t happen.  But there’ll be an opening in the labor party for him in the near future.  Hahahahahahahaha.  Am enjoying this so much at the moment.

    • The Redman says:

      10:58am | 26/04/11

      Is that the same John Howard who went to the 2007 election with a climate change ETS scheme of his own?

    • MarK says:

      12:52pm | 26/04/11

      Yep Redman the very same.

      Rudd had one as well.

      Where are they now?

      How is Nelson looking?

      Turnbull?

      See a theme? Catch the latest polls? Check out the essential research website.

      When even they try to puch poll a positive reaction to this turd of a policy they can’t.

    • SueB says:

      12:53pm | 26/04/11

      @ The Redman - Do you mean the ETS Australia would adopt when the USA and China had one?

    • michael j says:

      08:09am | 26/04/11

      2 Billion on a couple of bucks a day you say,,are they part of the starving who die at the rate of 1 every 3 1/2 seconds,,,
      Will their countries bare the brunt of the 4 billion expected to die of starvation in 32 years time,,
      Climate Change is probably a good thing,keeps peoples minds off whats going on,?

    • Luc says:

      08:13am | 26/04/11

      I am a member of the ASU and I was absolutely shocked and appalled to see them post on Facebook that on behalf of their members they support the Gillard Carbon Tax.

      As a member I was never contacted by the ASU asking my views on the subject, and they have NO RIGHT to act on behalf of me without my knowledge or input. I am a PAYING member of the union yet I seem to have no input into their decisions.

      I am beginning to agree that the unions are one huge sham, with union leaders just propping themselves up for positions in the Labor party.

    • Lenin says:

      09:16am | 26/04/11

      Don’t worry Luc we will look after you..but first we must make sure that our Comrades in Canberra are re elected.

    • LeftRightOut says:

      09:18am | 26/04/11

      Luc, do you have a choice to be a member or not?

    • CD says:

      09:38am | 26/04/11

      May I ask why you are still a member and why you then support them financially? No better way if showing your displeasure than withdrawing your membership:)

      No offence meant it shows how out of touch the unions now are.

    • Freeman says:

      10:48am | 26/04/11

      Luc,
      How do you feel about the fact your union fees also go towards election advertising?

    • jf says:

      12:08pm | 26/04/11

      “I am a PAYING member of the union yet I seem to have no input into their decisions.”

      Worse, you have no representation from ‘your’ delegates. Your fees are used to fund the ALP parliamentary scholarship scheme, underwrite industry superannuation funds and pay for political advertising.

    • Clayton says:

      08:54am | 26/04/11

      Uncertainty any medical professional will tell you is a damaging and dangerous emotion, and that’s all the Gillard/Swan/Rudd government offers.
      Spin and no substance.  Feel good announcements, or in the case of climate change, guilt if we do not embrace their Greens partners’, save-the-planet mojo.
      Hardened union leaders realise the urgent need for hard core facts.
      A business plan for the carbon price scheme, and a business plan for the proposed cash back to needy households (how much for how long?).
      Gillard and co have no idea of the carbon price tax ramifictions for households/business or global warming. But you can bet they will trot out another high-profile spokesperson or committee to assist incontinuing to weave a policy based on nothing more than wishes and weasel words.
      This is a say-a-lot, do-nothing government.

    • Tucky says:

      10:07am | 26/04/11

      Dear Mr Andrew Laming,

      Me and my friends (who vote) think your a fool - you have no decent opposition plan for climate change when the people want it. If you want to endear yourselves to the public, why dont you all agree on something for once.

      Love,
      constituents of YOUR electorate

    • Peter says:

      11:51am | 26/04/11

      Tucky it is you who is the fool for believing that doing something(no matter how stupid or detrimental to our way of life) is better than doing nothing.10% of governments world wide have implemented policies to tackle the greatest moral challenge of our life time spending billions of dollars on programs which have proved to be absolutely useless and you are conned into believing that it is the “right thing to do”.They say one is born every day..

    • TM says:

      11:56am | 26/04/11

      Hey Tucky, you claim to speak for all the constiuents in his electorate?

      If that is the case why is he the member? Idiots like you never seem to amaze me. Oh, a typo on your screen name, an F instead of the T, drop the Y and add head!

    • Mayday says:

      12:19pm | 26/04/11

      Dear Tucky,

      you and your friends need to get out more and grow up.

      Common sense is finally prevailing and people can see this tax for what it is - a socialist redistribution of wealth.

      Endearing yourself to the public is not the role of our elected politicians.

    • MarK says:

      12:45pm | 26/04/11

      “Dear Mr Andrew Laming,

      Me and my one friend (who vote) think your a fool but then again we are idealists that don’t care about anything but “causes”. You have no decent opposition plan for climate change that we can understand because we are stupid.  If you want to endear yourselves to the public, why don’t you all agree on something for once. I know this makes no sense because Julia and you said before the last election there would NOT be a carbon tax so you did actually all agree. Yeh I admit it….I am a tool


      Love,
      2% of the constituents of YOUR electorate “

      There ya go. All fixt for you.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:02am | 26/04/11

      2.55 Billion in direct subsidies to industry or an X amount passed on as costs by industry over a carbon tax and compensated by an unknown amount from government. Liberal or Labor, either way the taxpayer will have to pay because of the myth called Climate Change. Unless the Liberal Party was planning to drop their environmental policy after the election. Wouldn’t be the first time a government has done that

    • Peter says:

      07:39am | 27/04/11

      @Shane From Melbourne,
      Thinks it safe bet Tony wont change his mind, he has a fix it plan of ploughing the paddocks backward. Mind you Greg Hunt gots some embarresment coming up, that will shake Tony out of his togs. Notice Juliar,Tony and Greg are vey silent to Australian development given to the people before being released world wide, sealed in Co2 put to work has no need of Coal.

    • Peter Brown says:

      11:13am | 26/04/11

      The unfortunate truth for many is that being in a union is a necessary evil. As has already been pointed out many union officials are politicians in waiting. They pretend they are for the workers while misusing union resources and once they get their seat they ignore the very union that got them there.

      A classic example is former CPSU chief Steve Jones. That union wouldn’t act against the government in the interest of its members for fear of jeopardising his safe seat. He hasn’t repaid the favour, now he has his seat he doesn’t care about union members or issues.

      And Ged is the same. Some time ago she spoke about making superannuation money fund infrastructure, something her Labor masters had already suggested. The government messed up the budget and want to use the money of working people to fix the problem and she supported that view.

      Her latest trick was to deliver a petition with 12,000 signatures on it in favour of a carbon tax to the government. 12,000 signatures hardly represents the union movement or the nation but she still did it. She’s using the unions as a vehicle for her own benefit.

      Clayton has said Gillard and co have no idea of the carbon price tax ramifications for households/business or global warming. That is right, part of the reason they have no idea is that they don’t care and they have something to gain.

      For Ged it’s a safe seat and for Julia it’s the pricey benefits she’ll receive after completing one term as prime minister. If the country is ruined in the process I doubt that matters to them.

    • Harquebus says:

      11:15am | 26/04/11

      Those of us who are aware of the consequences of peak oil, do not worry about the climate. This tax will not save the planet.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      12:15pm | 26/04/11

      The problem is that there are two views upon the consequences of peak oil. The first view is one of the catabolic collapse of society; a decline in a gradual, downward stair-step of repeated crisis and recoveries, that is a couple of decades of economic contraction due to decreasing oil production, followed by an equilibrium as society adjusts to reduced oil, followed by a new crisis as oil production continues to decline.
      The other view is one of a petrocollapse, a steep drop off in oil, partly due to panic buying and hoarding, ” a run on the energy bank” and partly due to the oil industry inability to ratchet down refining output to follow a smooth depletion curve.
      However one fact remains- when it costs one barrel of oil (energywise) to extract a barrel of oil from the ground then it doesn’t matter what the the price of a barrel of oil is, the game is over. You can’t beat the laws of thermodynamics.

    • ppr says:

      02:33pm | 26/04/11

      Harquebus, forget peak oil.
      The myth of peak oil is political propaganda.
      It is a non problem.

      Under Carter, Kissinger struck a deal with Middle East oil countries (except Iran and Iraq) that the U.S. would not develop its own oil sources but would buy oil from them; if they in turn would buy U.S. T-bill debt notes.

      The biggest oil field in the US was then closed - Gull Island in Alaska, and also the Bakken oil field in North Dakota and Montana. (google trans alaska oil pipeline - the infrastructure is already in place).

      With the continuing destruction and devaluation of the US dollar, this agreement will collapse. The US will drill its own oil. The high price of crude is set to continue until this comes about.

      http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911

    • Gordicans says:

      05:40pm | 26/04/11

      PPR, peak oil is not a myth. All you need do is look at a long term chart of crude oil to see this.  Oil prices of $150-$200 per barrel are months away not years.  It is true that as oil prices rise other sources of oil will become available, but they are marginal in terms of supply.  Last saturday’s science show on abc radio has a very interesting podcast on this topic if you are interested:
      http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/

    • LC says:

      07:56pm | 27/04/11

      Peak oil. A subject bought up every couple of years by a handful of greenies since the environmental movement started. They will always say that we’d run out a decade or two after the year they make the claim, and every time they have been wrong. In primary school I was taught that we’d run out of oil by 2000. Messed up there a little there didn’t they?

      While it would be foolish to think we’d never reach peak oil (because it is finite, like virtually every other resource on the planet), I wouldn’t put my money on it happening any time soon wink.

    • Bruce says:

      03:28pm | 26/04/11

      The union movement is only interested in supporting the labor party, not to provide ‘informed’ and ‘balanced’ information to its members.

    • Tom says:

      10:28am | 27/04/11

      ... let alone the ‘protection’ of their members’ real interests.

    • Gordicans says:

      03:57pm | 26/04/11

      An interesting article but it has a fundemental flaw with it’s central theme:

      “There is also a bigger picture. Unlike taxing carbon at consumption, current taxes apply Pigouvian principles to hit production. That hurts economies like Australia because we are forced to self-tax our resources which are overwhelmingly exported.”

      The flaw is that the activity of exporting commodities is a low carbon exercise (which we do).  It is the activity of converting those commodities to product that is the high carbon activity (which other countries do). 

      So when we dig coal and iron ore out of the ground and load it into ships and transport it, the actual C02 consumed is minscule compared to the value of the export.  We are talking about C02 released in fuel needed for the diggers, trucks and rail, and bulk carriers (which may not be taxed).  The amount of carbon released in destination countries such as China and Japan when the commmodity is converted into product totaly dwarfs any C02 used in mining and transport of the commodity.

      So the authors contention that we are greatly disadvantaged compared to other commodity producers simply doesn’t stack up.

    • emoolilu says:

      10:09am | 28/04/11

      To my mind, this warrants serious consideration of a consumption side carbon tax similar to the GST.  I agree with Andrew, looking at the global picture, production-side tax will probably just result in greater international inequality and do very little to reduce carbon emissions. Perhaps, taxing carbon-intensity on the consumption side would be more effective at driving change in our behaviour. Unfortunately, the class-warriors on the left wont except the essential truth of the big picture.

    • jag says:

      08:27pm | 26/04/11

      The elephant in the room is population.

      And until population is addressed then there is not much point worrying about climate change.

    • bleD says:

      08:25am | 27/04/11

      Spot on, Jag. But it is a taboo subject as it is too hard and unpalatable for the people to face. So politicians run away from the issue.

    • Troy says:

      11:51am | 27/04/11

      Ok, then, what DO we do about population?  Obviously you can’t be implying we exterminate people.  So what’s your solution?  We limit the number of children people are allowed, I assumee.  Australia has negative population growth, once migration is taken out of the picture.  So, which population do you want to control?  African?  Asian?  Which countries and how do we impose our will on them?  Do we pay them not to have babies?  HOw much and who pays?  Please explain how you think we should deal with the Elephant in the Room.

    • Tom says:

      01:27pm | 27/04/11

      I’ll be a mug, Troy. Coercion might work. A carbon tax won’t. Err ... Troy ... Troy? A bit tacky for a smart-arse do-gooder like yourself, Troy? Come in, Troy ...

    • Peter says:

      10:55pm | 26/04/11

      This whole Carbon Tax thing is nothing more than a pig in a poke, and whats worse our Government wants us to buy it..

    • Peter says:

      08:09am | 27/04/11

      Interesting to note that with all the Politicians, Scientists and Commentators none has yet touched on how much Carbon release shall be reduced with this new tax. Going by the amount of policy and doing something Juliar is treating the whole thing like a religous debate, something that can be argued or discussed forever without any rationality nor end.

    • Watcher says:

      11:13am | 27/04/11

      I don’t understand the Carbon Tax and I am probably not alone in this.. I keep getting visions of someone sitting on a cloud with a cash register, yelling in a big booming voice..ok Australia, you have paid your carbon tax, you can have good weather for a year..then loudly yelling..American and China, no tax from you..expect the worst!!        I believe in climate change, but I would listen to the Unions, simply because if their members are out of work, that’s a loss of money to them in union fee’s

    • Seth Brundle says:

      12:08pm | 27/04/11

      So many comments, so few actually relating to the article at hand.

    • Yuri says:

      10:51pm | 27/04/11

      An interesting link here for those people that like to harp on about the old 97% of 3000 scientists ‘fact’.

      http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/01/03/lawrence-solomon-97-cooked-stats/

      Apparently, only 77 replies were actually considered acceptable by the researchers, so with some simple math, that makes , wait for it… 2.5% of scientists agree with 2 very vague questions on AGW.

    • Mark says:

      12:21am | 28/04/11

      Yuri,

      I just read that article - despite the writer’s objectives he still indicates that the vast majority of scientist who responded believe that a significant amount of climate change is caused by human activity

      Of the scientist which responded 90% believed the Earth had warmed and 83% believed it was due to human activity. For me I would rather go with the 83% of scentists who believe climate change is man made that the 17% who don’t. Its only the future of humanity that is at stake after all.

      The 75/77 were a subset who considered themselves climate scientists. So in other words 97% of climate scientists surveyed believed man made climate change was signficant. This seems pretty conclusive to me.

      If this is the best a sceptic can come up with I’m glad I picked the other side.

    • Ray says:

      11:38pm | 27/04/11

      There is one basic question that the author overlooks, and consequently fails to answer.

      By arguing that ” Climate debate here and globally is really a battle of economic redistribution”, the author makes the unforgivable mistake of accepting that anthropogenic global warming is real.

      Climate change is definitely real, as it is a natural process that has been going on since the beginning of time. But the hypothesis that anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions cause dangerous global warming, simply lacks scientific proof.

      Consequently, there is no scientific or economic justification for imposing a carbon tax or ETS or direct action.

    • Crystal says:

      12:22pm | 28/04/11

      This is nuts ! who cares but the mining gangsters and their global shareholders who’s debts Australian minerals and energy will be paying for ???  Oh, sh….t, hello.

      THE PEOPLE ! actually voted the Greens majority shareholders of the Senate at the last election for the very reason of taxing some of this unimaginable WEALTH to be invested back into Australia’s future in development of energy renewable technologies.  Who’s power supply for us in the long term will eventually cost us at least NOTHING.

      At least Australian’s wont have to pay for their power 10 years from now, even if the rest of the world is going bezerk and to war over what little natural resources we have left.  A fitting senario for not putting in place the very policies we are brave enough to push through now. I for one am relieved it is a Labour government who is leading in policy and changes for the environment, at least we can be assured of real protection for poor when these great changes to protect our future need to take place.

      Tell the Gangsters to go jump, including the people who get paid by them, Um, ah, the Unions and their leader Tony Abbott.  Their fear campaigns and blah blah are becoming quite monotonous and nothing but inappropriate for their comfortable positions. The government is already planning to compensate the genuinely poor with some of this mega wealth, so all of this blah blah is nuts, loss of jobs etc, is nuts, who do they think they will get to work the mines and industry for them ? ANTS, there isen’t enough poeple in this country already to make up the numbers they will need….  These people think majority of Australians are stupid like them. Don’t bother with your bull dust advertising campaigns you will waste your money, give it to renewable energy R&D instead. and don’t bother the public anymore with your idiotic rhetoric.

 

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