Thrash metal and video games don’t make you a killer

Sceptic says:

06:44am | 11/08/11

Muslim Fundamentalist would have sat much better with you Erick wouldn’t it?

Erick says:

07:52am | 11/08/11

@Sceptic - “Muslim Fundamentalist would have sat much better with you Erick wouldn’t it?”

No, because that would have been just as inaccurate as calling Breiviks a Christian Fundamentalist. He is neither. Such terminological inexactitude is annoying.

If anything, I’d call him a Militant Ant-Muslim Nationalist.

Obvious says:

08:26am | 11/08/11

No, sceptic.

Everyone knows Anders Breivik was a left wing muslim extreme climate science advocate. So much so that he donned the **disguise** of a right wing loonie to generate bad press.
Sheesh.. if everyone continues to ignore the underlying leftism causes of a right wing fundamentalist massacre.. we’ll never get anywhere.

Mankind says:

08:53am | 11/08/11

He is Christian, he is a fundamentalist and he is a terrorist. These are facts not accusations.

Sceptic is right you’d be all over this bloke if he’d claimed to be a Muslim. But for convenience he’s no longer considered a Christian because of the atrocity he committed.

Perhaps you should analyse yourself.

Gregg says:

09:10am | 11/08/11

@Erick
” Christian Fundamentalist terrorist Anders Breivik ”
I think you forgot terrorist in the pointing finger blame naming.
Alan does not ignore the fundamental cause - he is a nutter.

No doubt we have plenty of nutters about claiming all sorts of religious beliefs - the guy in Texas just sent down for a long long time for his ” you are my harem of barely teenage girls belief ” and then there was the Jonestown mass suiciding and all those other freak fundamentalists.

You also would seem to have missed that Alan supports broad exposure to all sorts of beliefs.

Thomas Anderson says:

09:20am | 11/08/11

He is as much a real Christian as Osama was a real Muslim.

You know what’s kinda strange, the author argues that it is stupid to think that the violence committed by Breivik was influenced by violent video games, however he has no problem blaming a peaceful religion.

Now, while it is clear to anyone with half a brain that neither religions nor video games are to blame for the massacre, undoubtedly, out of the two, the video games had a much higher potential to incite violence.

Erick says:

09:23am | 11/08/11

@Mankind - No, Breiviks is not a Christian in any religious sense, as this quote from his manifest demonstrates: ”  “If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. We do however believe in Christianity as a cultural, social, identity and moral platform. This makes us Christian.”

He’s Christian only in a cultural sense - he doesn’t actually believe in it as a religion. Hence, he isn’t a fundamentalist at all, and arguably not even a Christian.

@Obvious - Your sarcasm is as obvious as the pointlessness of your comment.

Demoman says:

09:40am | 11/08/11

I think he described himself as a “cultural Christian” in the sense that he doesn’t really believe in god rather just sees it as a foundation for Western Civilization.

What is interesting though is that the people labeling him a right wing fundamentalist Christian are the same people that always make excuses for Islamic terrorism, which has killed far more people and is most cases of terrorism.

The same people who label the riots in London as class warfare when in fact it is a race issue. “Oh it’s class riot, we need MORE socialism!”.

PsychoHyena says:

09:46am | 11/08/11

@Thomas Anderson, you made me choke there… Peaceful? PEACEFUL?!? Christianity is nowhere near peaceful! It was Christians that slaughtered entire races because of religion, it was Christians that started the Crusades, it was Christianity that the Roman Emperor Constantine turned to for his wars because he was told that God would not let him lose.

How on earth can you say Christianity is a peaceful religion when it has the blood of millions if not thousands on its hands? No Christian religion truly follows the teachings of Christ or follows all 10 Commandments. Let’s not forget the violence that has been perpetrated by those of the cloth towards children over the years.

It might also surprise you Thomas that Adolf Hitler was a believer in Christ (or at least Christ’s power) this makes Hitler a Christian. Never say that Christianity is a peaceful religion as it is a lie.

For anyone wishing to attack my argument saying “why are you just focusing on Christianity?” Christianity was the one brought up as being peaceful in this debate, I know of no religion that is completely free of violence.

Mankind says:

10:11am | 11/08/11

@Erick

And which God was he praying to before the masacre?

It’s a double standard you would not allow a Muslim fundamentalist to get away with.

@Demomam

“The same people who label the riots in London as class warfare when in fact it is a race issue. “Oh it’s class riot, we need MORE socialism!”.”

Of course it’s a class riot. The majority of pictures I’ve seen have had caucasian looters in them. The solution is not more socialism it’s more jobs and opportunity. The solution is not trying to make it solely about race.

Erick says:

10:24am | 11/08/11

@Mankind - I don’t know if Breiviks prayed to any god before the massacre, but I doubt he did. He doesn’t seem to be the religious type.

However, Islamic terrorists often shout “Allahu akbar!” as they perform their assaults. There are plenty of videos to attest to that on LiveLeak and YouTube. This is one of the ways we know their motives are religious.

There may be a few “Islamic” terrorists who don’t actually believe in the religion, but I would say they’re not very common. Islam is a religion that preaches holy war, and many of its followers practice what they preach.

As for Christian Fundamentalist terrorists, they do exist - those who bomb abortion clinics are an example. But Breiviks isn’t one.

just sayin says:

11:26am | 11/08/11

@ erik - pointlessness is relative..

For example some seem to think posting first with a snide comment and rabidly biting all who disagree is *not* pointless.

fml says:

11:46am | 11/08/11

Keep back-peddling Erick, He is a christian fundamentalist, pure and simple.

His purpose was to “preserve a christian europe”. So he was part of christian militant groups, he wanted to preserve a christian europe, he killed 70-90 odd people, but we dont know if he prayed to god or not so he isnt a christian fundamentalist.

So if you are part of al-qaida but you are a bit “iffy” bout this god thing, that means you are not a muslim fundamentalist??

dan says:

11:54am | 11/08/11

Congrats @Sceptic it only took the 2nd post for you to try bring out the muslim christian argument.
Mate are you even Muslim? Get a life, seriously

Mankind says:

12:05pm | 11/08/11

@Erick

How typical of your disingenious style is to ignore facts that don’t fit with whatever far right wing rant you’re currently on.

“He doesn’t seem to be the religious type.”

Bullshit.

From Breivik’s manifesto: “I attend my final martyr’s mass in Frogner Church. It will contribute to ease my mind as I imagine I will get tense and very nervous. It is easier to face death if you know you are biologically, mentally and spiritually at ease.’”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018240/Norway-massacre-Mass-murderer-Anders-Behring-Breiviks-online-manifesto.html#ixzz1UgIfi22k

Of course Breiviks is not representitive of mainstream Christianity and neither were the 9/11 terrorists representitive of mainstream Islam.

I’m not defending extremists I’m just pointing out that a) Breiviks is indeed a Christian regardless of what spin you want to put on it. and b) that you would not accept these excuses for him if he was a Muslim.

I’m pointing out the double standards that are typical of your rants.

Timmy says:

12:16pm | 11/08/11

Let us not pay attention to the evidence (this guy’s manifesto)

Let us not think about what a typical person of the Christian Fundamentalist persuasion might do, say or write in a 1500 page manifesto.

Let us simply call this guy a Christian Fundamentalist because it suits the point we want to make.

Brett says:

12:44pm | 11/08/11

I wouldn’t say he is a fundamentalist Christian, nor did his Christianity contribute to his crimes. A fundamentalist would say he did it because it is God’s will, and would be praying in his cell, preaching his gospel. Breivik’s own lawyer said he has displayed no Christian or any religious views or actions since being imprisoned.

He is merely a right wing nationalistic nut job. He probably has less against Islam the religion than he does Islam in the cultural and society sense.

Likewise there have been plenty of nationalistic nut jobs who had no religion… think Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot. Likewise there are religious fundamentalists who commit terrorist acts and have no political leanings (htough admittedly they usually lean towards the right)

Erick was right when he said “As for Christian Fundamentalist terrorists, they do exist - those who bomb abortion clinics are an example. But Breiviks isn’t one.”

Bob says:

12:46pm | 11/08/11

@Erick - Yes. I’m sure he was no true Scotsman…. I mean Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Erick says:

12:49pm | 11/08/11

@fml - I’m not backpedalling at all. I’ve been consistent all along.

@Mankind - Evidently you missed my own quote from Breiviks’ manifesto, so here it is again:

“If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God.”

That makes it pretty clear he doesn’t consider himself a religious Christian. Thus he couldn’t possibly be a Christian Fundamentalist, since such people believe strongly in a personal relationship with Jesus, and in fact carry on about it all the time.

The quote you used only supports my case. Breiviks attended a mass to calm his nerves - but in that quote he doesn’t mention God or Jesus at all, unlike a Christian Fundamentalist.

It’s quite clear that Breiviks wasn’t a very religious person, and his own religion, if any, was not his primary motivation.

Describing him incorrectly, as you do, simply means you are denying reality and cannot understand why he did what he did.

Brian says:

01:45pm | 11/08/11

Strange, the way I read this article is that the author is saying that him being Christian is just as relevant as him playing computer games - that is, not at all!

“Removing Bibles from bookshelves would probably have no more effect than removing violent games.” Doesn’t sound like he’s saying it was the Christianity which was the issue. And the next paragraph goes on to show how ridiculous blaming it would be.

In any case, as Leviticus 11:12 states “Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.” (King James Bible version), anyone who considers eating prawns to be ok is by definition not a Christian. Is my last sentence ludicrous? Yes - but no more ludicrous than the idea that just because someone kills they are not Christian either.

Natasha says:

03:26pm | 11/08/11

“just sayin says:11:26am | 11/08/11

@ erik - pointlessness is relative..

For example some seem to think posting first with a snide comment and rabidly biting all who disagree is *not* pointless”

This was the comment of the day!

Ren says:

04:36pm | 11/08/11

@Thomas

Now, while it is clear to anyone with half a brain that neither religions nor video games are to blame for the massacre, undoubtedly, out of the two, the video games had a much higher potential to incite violence.

With all due repsect Thomas, correct me if I am wrong. But a damn good percentage of violence in history has stemmed from religion.
I would say religion causes alot more violence than video games.

And I am far from an athiest.

Eric (not Erick above) says:

04:58pm | 11/08/11

@PsychoHyena while Christians can be blamed for those atrocities, they are conflicting with the underlying belief system. What’s an interesting debate to me, which is playing out here: Are you a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever just because you identify with the belief? I think not. A true Christian is a peaceful person. People like Breivik warp the meaning of Christianity to include such actions as terrorism, when they clearly should not.

Rhys says:

06:35pm | 11/08/11

@Eric (Not Erik above)

Refer to the earlier comment “No True Scotsman”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

If someone worships the Christian deity then they are a Christian. Saying that qualifying him as not being a “true Christian” is an illogical attempt to absolve Christianity from being associated to this atrocity. This kind of statement is akin to turning around and saying that “No True Musilm would ever become a suicide bomber”.

I am not trying to say that Christianity or religion as a whole is evil. As the author has stated the core values of all religion’s is of value, however the extreme of anything (especially religion) is a very bad thing.

Mankind says:

10:00pm | 11/08/11

So this guys last act before committing this atrocity was to go to a Christian church, to attend a Christian mass and pray to a Christian God and he’s not a Christian because you can find one quote in which he gives an ambivalent definition of his Christianity.

Sure mate.

And still you would Muslims to a different standard because of the actions of individuals.

Erick says:

07:57am | 12/08/11

@Bob and Rhys - No, this is not an example of “no true Scotsman” reasoning. I have already pointed out that there are genuine Christian Fundamentalist terrorists, for example, those who bomb abortion clinics.

Breiviks isn’t a Christian Fundamentalist. He doesn’t take the Bible literally, nor does he invoke God and Jesus in every second sentence, like a Christian Fundamentalist would. He simply does not fit the description.

Any connection he feels to Christianity is incidental to his basic motivation, which is cultural war against Islam. That is why it is simply incorrect to describe him as a “Christian Fundamentalist terrorist”.

There are terrorists who are primarily motivated by fundamentalist Christian beliefs, but Breiviks is not one of them. You can’t combat terrorism effectively if you ignore its causes.

Mankind says:

03:21pm | 12/08/11

A weak cherry picked justification to excuse the fact that this atrocity was committed by a Christian who hoped to start a Christian Holy war against Muslims.

Typical of your double standards Erick.

TimB says:

07:43am | 11/08/11

Twilight should be banned anyway. For the good of humanity.

atthepub says:

07:54am | 11/08/11

The bible is actually one of the best examples to show people’s ignorance and hypocritical attitudes.

The bible is the only religious document that I am aware of which details in ten steps the attitudes of a decent human being; do not kill, do not steal, do not lie, do not covet and so on. Rules which were laid down some six thousand years ago with the ten commandments and on which most of our laws are based.

The ignorance shows twofold when people call for a ban. First it becomes clear that they’ve never read or understood the bible or they would be celebrating each and every word in it for the wisdom it contains. Nor do these ‘knockers’ generally have any intention of finding out or following the moral guidelines it contains.

Secondly the bible shows very obviously the ignorance/hypocrisy of the ‘followers/believers’ then and now, when they would like us to believe that their God condones killing, lying stealing etc after he explicitly tells them not to.

Of course it is not the same when we merely do it on a screen .. is it?

So for all of you who mention banning the bible .. we hear you wildly advertising your ignorance and hypocrisy.

Mahhrat says:

08:39am | 11/08/11

@atthepub, are you agreeing with me or not?  I can’t tell.  Comprehension fail, most likely.

Elphaba says:

09:01am | 11/08/11

Well said.  Blaming things like heavy metal and video games just points the fingers at the excuses and trivialises the events, instead of focusing on the killer and the fact that sometimes, people are deadset bastards.

People went on murderous rampages long before thrash metal and violent films and games.  It’s time to stop making excuses.

Gregg says:

09:14am | 11/08/11

@Elphaba
” people are deadset bastards.” . no kidding but in this case I reckon you have it mildly wrong.
Surely we can find some better description for that lowlife.

Thomas Anderson says:

09:21am | 11/08/11

Please notice that out of all the violent material, the Bible clearly does not belong in the list, by logic.

Elphaba says:

09:29am | 11/08/11

@Gregg, fire away then, I didn’t bring my thesaurus.

Phil S says:

09:33am | 11/08/11

@atthepub
“The bible is actually one of the best examples to show people’s ignorance and hypocritical attitudes.”

Totally agree, though usually it shows the ignorance of the christians who claim to follow it…

“The bible is the only religious document that I am aware of ...”
Perhaps you ought to study other religions in more detail then…

“The ignorance shows twofold when people call for a ban….”
If you read the article properly, you will notice that the author clearly says banning the Bible wont achieve anything…starting to get the impression you have no idea what the author was trying to communicate…

“First it becomes clear that they’ve never read or understood the bible or they would be celebrating each and every word in it for the wisdom it contains.”
“Nor do these ‘knockers’ generally have any intention of finding out or following the moral guidelines it contains.”
Hear it comes…The standard Christian arrogance that once you read the bible, you will suddenly be hanging on very word…I’d suggest you learn tolerance as Jesus preached it, but I know full well that you will read the relevant passages how you wish to see them, and not get the real message out.

And it’s closely followed by a suggestions that those who don’t follow the bible are immoral. You are exactly what is wrong with Christians today. Jesus would be ashamed of you. I guess it is fortunate that your religion allows infinite forgiveness!

“Secondly the bible shows very obviously the ignorance/hypocrisy of the ‘followers/believers’ then and now, when they would like us to believe that their God condones killing, lying stealing etc after he explicitly tells them not to.”

To be honest it sounds hear like you are saying the bible is full of hypocrisy…No actually I have no idea what you are saying. You say “their God”, so Since the first part appears to be ranting against unbelievers, wouldn’t that be “your God”? Anyway…

“Of course it is not the same when we merely do it on a screen .. is it?”

No it’s not…People who aren’t psychotic killers can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. The problem is those who can’t tell the difference. Fantasy can come from anywhere, and unless you ban free thought, you will never get rid of the risk that some psychotic human will do something terrible.

“So for all of you who mention banning the bible .. we hear you wildly advertising your ignorance and hypocrisy.”
Ha, all we see is your inability to read and comprehend the article…

Aaron says:

09:47am | 11/08/11

HAHAHA!!! I read James Bond and Jamie Oliver for a moment, there Seriously though, It doesn’t take the bible to cause nutcases and murders. Look at Stalin. Look at China.

I think you’ll also find that banning the bible generally leads to an explosion in christianity.

atthepub says:

10:18am | 11/08/11

Phil, In your response lies my point .. you haven’t a clue about the difference of what Christians state and what the bible says. Nor do you even understand my very clear explanation. If you did, you would not be so ignorant as to address me as a Christian.

I never suggested that people who don’t follow the bible are immoral, nor do I believe this to be the case. If anything I point at the hypocrisy of some who do.

Jesus is the one who calls ‘believers’ hypocrites, if you had read the bible you would know this.

When you get yourself organised let us all know what other religious document details the ten commandments prior to the bible.

You very clearly do not understand the bible, Christians, or the meaning of the word ignorance. You’re a prime example of one wildly advertising ones ignorance.

Gregg says:

11:06am | 11/08/11

@Elphaba
” @Gregg, fire away then, I didn’t bring my thesaurus. “
Sometimes it is difficult to find the appropriate descriptions and in using a line of words I would say something like he is a nauseating vile evil worthless piece of scum.
There should also be punishments developed especially for such non humans, maybe a peeling of him alive - they do it to snakes in China!
or
Chain and fatten him up like they do with dogs in Korea along with the regular beatings for tenderising, a bit of progressive peeling and pot simmering too, no quick death but let him know that pieces will be gradually carved off for feeding animals.

Lisa H. says:

11:37am | 11/08/11

Guns don’t kill people…people kill people… eek I’ve heard this argument before…

Shane From Melbourne says:

12:19pm | 11/08/11

@ atthepub- “First it becomes clear that they’ve never read or understood the bible or they would be celebrating each and every word in it for the wisdom it contains.”

Does that mean that I can stone adulterers, idolaters and blasphemers? The bible tell me to do so.

Brian says:

01:57pm | 11/08/11

Leviticus 11:12: “Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.” (King James Bible version, other versions have slightly different wording but the same concept). Please tell me why I would be celebrating every one of those words for their wisdom?

Ever eaten a prawn? Crayfish or crab? Oyster? Frog? Congratulations, you have committed an abomination - for as Jesus said in Luke 16:17 “And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.” (again, King James Bible version). Coincidentally that same passage allows all of the other odd things of the old testament, including the dietary laws regarding pork, to be required for Christianity - or at least for a pious Christian.

David says:

03:35pm | 11/08/11

@atthepub

“First it becomes clear that they’ve never read or understood the bible or they would be celebrating each and every word in it for the wisdom it contains.”

If the Bible was indeed the inerrant word of a perfect god, I am sure that if I read it I would be blown away and left in awe and wonder of the wisdom and insight that could only be work of such an omniscient supreme being. But instead I see a book full of barbaric immorality, contradictions, and examples that any ethical 21st century person would consider abominable, clearly reflective of the dark ages beliefs and attitudes of the men that wrote it.

Brian says:

06:09pm | 11/08/11

For that matter, about the ten commandments thing. The first four (or three - we can’t even decide on the numbering) are all about not worshipping anyone else, not taking the Lord’s name in vain, not making any idols and not working on Saturdays (or Sundays, we can’t agree on that either). To me, none of these are essential for being a good person, so we’re down to six.

The covetting one to me is covered by the stealing ones - wanting mething is ok, nicking it isn’t. So that takes out another one. So, that leaves us with honour your parents, don’t commit adultery, don’t murder, don’t steal and don’t bear false witness. Combine don’t commit adultery and don’t bear false witness into ‘do not lie’ and broaden the parents one and we have:

1. You shall respect others.
2. You shall not murder.
3. You shall not steal.
4. You shall not lie.
Actually, after #1 the other three are kind of implied, so we have the Commandment:

1. You shall respect others and their property, rights and dignity.

Pretty much covers it… and as a concept predates the bible.

Joan says:

07:37am | 11/08/11

Yeah, he`s blowing a gasket - maybe he has shares in violent videogame sales in Norway.

HappyCynic says:

09:10am | 11/08/11

I think he’s upset because people are such reactionary f**kwits.  Stupid too. 

Pointing out people’s stupidity is not a sign of anger management problems although it is f**king futile since you f**king humans are too stupid to understand anything more subtle than a few monosyllabic grunts.  That futility leads to frustration, frustration leads to a burst of anger, in this case demonstrated by a dump of words neatly arranged into an article on this site.

I’m sure he’s feeling a lot less angry now it’s out of his system, like passing a turd relieves a lot of stress though he probably shouldn’t read the comments unless he wants to really lose all faith in the intelligence of humanity.

TimB says:

07:52am | 11/08/11

It’s about the challenge. Whether it’s you vs other human players, or you vs the game (the programmers & designers), it taps into the human competitive spirit.

IMO it’s no different from playing sport, or a boardgame, or doing a crossword or a Sudoku.

Also unique to video games though is the ability for the medium to provide entertainment through a story, just like a book or TV show. or film. And the interactivity just adds a whole other dimension to the whole thing.

Seriously, play something like Portal and you’ll see what I mean.

adam says:

08:13am | 11/08/11

Tina, there are many genre of video games. I believe that for a “normal” player the attraction to any game is the chance to do something they are unble to do in real life. Now that may be driving a race car, playing a musical instument or saving the world. Some people enjoy playing soldiers as kids and the killing style video game is merely an extension of that play

Tina says:

08:23am | 11/08/11

I am fine with car racing or adventure games. And I understand the challenge thing. But couldnt you be equally challenged playing soccer outside rather than killing zombies?

Tina says:

08:30am | 11/08/11

@ adam

The way you put it it sounds fine, but why do they have to be so super graphic and detailled? And I remember my expartner having fun killing all the bystanding people in assassins creed for fun instead of his real enemies. And he would yell at the screen “die, you b****”. Thats creepy.

TimB says:

08:34am | 11/08/11

Not if you’re no good at soccer.

The thing about challenge is it has to also be achieveable. Too easy is boring. Too hard is just frustrating. It’s the middle ground where the challenge translates into fun. And given different people have different skills, and find different activities (or game genres) to provide varying levels of challnge, obviously they’re going to gravitate to those that they feel provide them with the most fun.

So someone who is terrible at soccer may be quite good at taking down zombies. Hence their choice in entertainment.

adam says:

08:46am | 11/08/11

Tina I think there are many who, for a variety of reasons, would be overly challenged “playing soccer outside”. A lack of talent, physical ability, social group, opportunity or even interest in “nice” activities mean there are people who will never engage in traditional recreation, even if video games didn’t exist.. They arent wrong or misguided, they have simply found a means of recreation that they enjoy.
I enjoy shooting zombies, nazis and space monsters but also enjoy spending a day on the water fishing. Gaming is just recreation and not everyone enjoys the smae stuff

Tina says:

08:49am | 11/08/11

@ TimB

How about you accompany your girlfriend to a make up shopping trip and be nice and carry her bags? I am sure that qualifies as a proper challenge. Or is that one of those too-tough challenges?

Elphaba says:

09:05am | 11/08/11

Jeez Tina, the boys answered your questions, and they were pretty good answers, and you let fly with that bitchy answer?

Yikes.  Judge not, and all that…

Gregg says:

09:19am | 11/08/11

@Tina,
Stay a girl and yes I agree that it takes a certain mentality to get a thrill out of the challenge of video games.
As for ” And I remember my expartner having fun killing all the bystanding people in assassins creed for fun instead of his real enemies. And he would yell at the screen “die, you b****”. Thats creepy. “
Yes, lucky you he’s the ex!

Thomas Anderson says:

09:26am | 11/08/11

Hahaha, Tina, you are like my ex, who still thinks video games are for children, despite the average age being 30 nowadays.

Most guys love video games, if a girl cannot come to terms with that, she needs to work on herself, because the problem lies within her. We think girly movies / shows are ridiculously childish as well, but it’s not an issue for us if you continue watching them

Luke says:

09:26am | 11/08/11

Tina, you seem pretty condescending here, I must say. You version of “nice” things does not necessarily mean that they’re nice. Conversely, those things that don’t fall in the “nice” category aren’t always bad.

To answer your initial question though (why people play these “not nice” games) can be varied, but I’ll give you the answer I’d use if I played the games:
1. I find electronic sporting games boring for the most part. Team sports on the computer are ridiculous (you can only control one player at a time, even though there’s a dozen more guys you need to at least be aware of). There is substantial tactile satisfaction when you kick a ball in real life, but a computer cannot do that. This brings me to:
2. Real life sporting events can be difficult to arrange. My friends (all adults) have their own lives to live. Sure, we might be able to arrange things on an occasional weekend, but what do I do for the rest of the time? What do I do in the evenings when the kids are in bed, or it’s too dark to go outside and play “nice” games?
3. “Not nice” games have immediate reward systems in place. I can ‘level up’ as I go, accrue badges/ranks/equipment in a real time situation. The avatar on the screen in front of me becomes better, and it is apparent that he’s better. If I go out and play football, I KNOW that I’m not going to get better; I reached that threshold a long time ago.
4. “Not nice” games usually have some form of puzzle aspect. ‘How do I get from here to there without being shot?’ can lead you to circumvent areas of a map, discover foxholes, special items (see previous point) and so on. Cricket doesn’t give me that. Sure there’s a degree of strategy to it, but there’s not a lot of real mental challenge.

.

As for your suggestion that guys should go on your shopping trips and hold your bags, ask yourself if you’d really like that. Guys will be bored, and possibly horrified by the amount of money you’re pouring into paraphernalia that duplicates (multiple times) stuff you’ve already got. Girls will become hugely frustrated by the guys’ inability to mask their boredom. Everybody’s outing will be spoiled.

Why don’t you try playing the games that you deem as “not nice”? You’ll at least have an educated opinion of them then, and you never know… you might actually like one or two of them. It’s highly likely that at worst, you’d get bored with shooting high definition zombies (or whatever) but I don’t think you’ll find that you get so filled with rage that you want to camp on a clock tower with a high-powered rifle.

LC says:

09:28am | 11/08/11

Tina, that last comment in my opinion does come across as an attack on gamers…

Rhino says:

09:42am | 11/08/11

@Tina

I play Left 4 Dead in preparation for the coming Zombie Apocalypse!

Ok seriously, its a computer game, a challenge and entertaining, shoe shopping with my partner is about as much fun as watching paint dry. She is a good person and doesn’t make me come (or lets me wonder into EB Games when I am dragged along). I do carry her bags afterwards whilst I try to decide if I should get Gears of War or save for MW3. For the record my favourite games are CIV 2 (turn based strategy game), Portal 1 and 2 (the cake is a lie!) and Half Life 1 and 2 (Brilliant shootem up game, with the lead man being a Scientist not a steroid pumped Alpha Male super man). Open your mind, as Alan Baxter identified, Anders Breivik, had a lot wrong with him and removing or controlling his acess to the material to commit the terroist acts, being 7 odd tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertiliser and a Mini 14 assault rifle would have slowed him down alot. Seriously, why do civilians need a semi automatic, military calibre “hunting rifle”? If you or anyone can satisfactorily justify why owning a Mini 14 or anyother mid calibre semi automatic, large magazine feed rifle, I will give up computer games (note I do not count “home defense” as a valid reason).

atthepub says:

09:53am | 11/08/11

You’re on the mark when you call being nice, too-tough Tina. Cause really people playing these violent games are adrenaline junkies or celebrating their rage. And how to celebrate ones rage whilst being nice to your girlfriend ... mmm .. is not gonna happen.

TimB says:

10:14am | 11/08/11

Actually, the issue I have with Tina’s comment is that her suggestion represents a hellish twisted hybrid of a fetch quest and an escort mission. Any self-respecting gamer would be running for the hills.

bennie says:

10:20am | 11/08/11

It’s fantasy.  It’s about doing things that you can’t/won’t do in real life, like racing F1 cars, skateboarding at a high level, playing international level soccer, trawling through dungeons, and yes, killing people.

How many movies are about killing people?  Heaps, and there are always plenty of people watching them.

It seem ironic to me that you can watch heaps of TV and movies about people carrying guns and putting bullets in other’s brains, but in reality very few people actually do this. 

In real life, almost every person in the world makes love, but any movie showing this graphically, is restricted or generally only available in an adult store.  It’s ok to show death and dismemberment in mainstream media, but showing sex is taboo.

Elphaba says:

10:26am | 11/08/11

@TimB, hehehe, well said.

PsychoHyena says:

10:27am | 11/08/11

Tina, I’m one of the few gamers that doesn’t get a thrill out of the First-Person-Shooters that you are talking about. I much prefer the games that involve a little thinking, the Hitman series is excellent as it teaches patience and problem-solving. I also like the classic Sonic games, and as I tend to tell people, if games influence us then why aren’t I running around smashing up robots, beating up fat old men and gathering rings?

Tina says:

10:28am | 11/08/11

@ TimB

If that is an incentive feel free to demolish anyone getting in the way of me and my new acquisitions and you are as well welcome to break your record driving to the shopping mall and fighting the other escorts over the car parks

Tina says:

10:32am | 11/08/11

@ LC

I apologise, that was a slip. It was just attacking one gamer, not all of them.

LC says:

10:41am | 11/08/11

Oh atthepub, you are a real bastion of intelligence, aren’t you?

Tina says:

10:43am | 11/08/11

@ Luke

I was not serious about coming shopping with me would be a nice activity for a guy. I actually did buy the playstation and bought “a girls game” to give it a go. I tried the cruel stuff but I suck at it because I rather hide my character in a corner for 10 min than risk getting shot. Not much progress there.

I guess we should just accept the difference between boys and girls and admit its a good thing if its balanced.

Luke says:

11:03am | 11/08/11

Hey Tina. It seems you play in the same manner as me - camping in safety, taking a quick snipe when it’s safe. Doesn’t make for a good game, I do admit.

Tina says:

11:15am | 11/08/11

@ Luke

Maybe, but with the difference that I never got myself to take that quick snipe as I was too scared.

atthepub says:

11:28am | 11/08/11

Elphaba, all I notice is Tina asking genuine questions and responding genuinely. And you going around bitching and judging.

Amy says:

11:30am | 11/08/11

Games are violent because “you shoot/kill the thing” is the easyest starting point for game design..sure there are alterntitives (like portal) but I guess it was just progression from Mario stomping on turtles

anyway it also has to do with demographic…most gamers are male and like the Violence

HOWEVER I’d also like to point out that there are girls out there who love games (myself included)

and not all gamers are over the top violent, like Assasins creed or Infamous, and some are, but most of them contain some kind of combat, some also have awsome charachters ans storys (Mass effect, Dragon age) to a non-gamer it looks like mindless violence but alot of the time theres more to it than that

anyway they are not to blame, ultra violent movies existed before hand, and people blame games because they dont “get” them

Elphaba says:

11:38am | 11/08/11

“And you going around bitching and judging. “

Oohh… new friend.

LC interpreted the comment as a snide attack on gamers too.  Are you gonna bust his/her chops??

d says:

11:40am | 11/08/11

Rhino…

Home defence from Zombies?
although you could not go past a shotgun for that…

Tina says:

11:42am | 11/08/11

@ Amy

Thats the odd thing. I dont think the gamers play these games because they “like violence”. I am just guessing as I am not one of them, but although I dont like those games (more for being anti-social sometimes and creepy) the guys playing them are no more or less violent than anyone else. In fact I see more aggressiveness in blokes that binge drink in pubs or go to see/play footy.

Roland says:

11:49am | 11/08/11

Hi Tina,

I play a variety of games in my spare time including some which are very violent.  I especially enjoy the multiplayer experience, and testing my skills against other people.

I think for a lot of men, myself included, violently blowing away or hacking up the competition satisfies some basic primal instincts that are no longer useful in our society. It will take thousands of years yet to breed out men’s instincts to ‘protect and conquer’. Video games great stress relief for some guys for that reason.

In reality, I wouldn’t hurt a fly.

TimB says:

11:52am | 11/08/11

atthepub, looks like you’re the one judging from this end. Or maybe you missed Tina’s backhanded response to me that she freely admits was an attack?

Oh wait, no you didn’t. You agreed with it and followed it up with your own stupid theory about gamers being full of rage. 

Sock it to him Elphie

Rhino says:

11:57am | 11/08/11

@D

Yes when the Zombie Apocalypse comes, I want my shotgun and a kick arse partner called Talehase (or however that is spelt).

Tina says:

12:10pm | 11/08/11

Wowowow boys. Its all good sports. Or should we charter an isolated island and finish the argument there?

redvixen says:

12:55pm | 11/08/11

If my husband only ever wanted to do ‘nice’ things, I’d never have time to do anything on my own.  There’s a reason I bought him that violent video game for Christmas…...so he wouldn’t annoy me when I wanted to curl up with a good book.

Bob says:

12:56pm | 11/08/11

Tina: While I fully appreciate and understand your point about the challenge of carrying my wife’s shopping (I don’t need to pretend to not be bored. She knows I am. I find a seat and read while she does whatever), I find it more entertaining to watch her balance her desires against her carrying capacity.

for humanity's sake says:

12:57pm | 11/08/11

@ Tina - Have you tried killing any zombies? It’s exhilarating, I suggest you try it. I’m probably not the biggest girl but I LOVE videogames, I like Final Fantasy, Zelda and the Mass Effects much more than others - there’s something about saving the world that is just so magical, and exploring a world other than our own. I still like running aliens over in warthogs occasionally too, as well as exploding zombies.There are a lot of ‘nice’ games too, ‘Flower’ for example is beautiful - you are a petal and you fly around fields collecting other petals, that’s it, and it’s somewhat meditative and very pretty. ‘Journey’ is another that is on its way. There are so many different types of games and although you get some crazy children that only play COD or MW the majority of gamers enjoy a broad range of games. A lot of people are playing games more because society isn’t such a ‘nice’ place to be. People are finding communities in their game networks that are more real than ‘real life’ communities. It is about connecting and belonging for many people, society isn’t so ‘nice’ to everyone and so the idea of an escape into worlds where you are not bound by the laws and restrictions society places on us, you can be different from who you truly are, or more true to yourself than the outside world has ever seen - that idea, that reality, is very ‘nice’ for people to have. We need to take a look at society and ask why people are wanting to escape it, whether it be through drugs, alcohol, games, suicide; we need to ask why our society isn’t so ‘nice’ to every person, why are people finding comfort in other worlds?

Tina says:

01:09pm | 11/08/11

Oh, I know “Flower”. I loved it. And I know “little big planet” or what was it called? Thats cute too. But I think apart from that I just have to accept that I am a total girl with everything that comes with it. Pink mobile phone, poison green nail varnish today, skirts and heels and the whole lot. But thats ok.

Tina says:

01:19pm | 11/08/11

@ Bob

That reminds me of a story my daddy used to tell me as a kid about my mother not wanting to have that precious handbag he picked in the store but rather settled for a “tiny, little” diamond ring….

MnM says:

01:42pm | 11/08/11

Because blowing the heads off zombies is fun, and shopping and soccer are dull. I do not buy the “men like violence” argument either, being a girl and all that.

Kassandra says:

02:04pm | 11/08/11

@ Tina

It’s not just a boy thing although most gamers are boys. I am a gamer. I play World of Warcraft mostly and belong to a guild that has only female members (that is female in real life). We are a fairly high level “raiding” guild so not rank amateurs. You might be surprised how many girls play, including lots of older ones like me.

What’s the attraction? I can only speak for myself but there is the obvious things - the challenge, the puzzle-solving, achievements etc. The biggie though is that it’s a totally immersive fantasy world that is interactive. I can explore worlds that are literally fantastic, ride on flying dragons, heal the wounded and raise the dead, hurl bolts of molten fire, freeze monsters in their tracks, vanquish demon lords, craft uber armour etc etc. It’s escapism. I get enough of the real world in my work 50+ hours a week and I love escaping into fantasy worlds where I can be and do anything I can imagine. It’s also extremely social if you want it to be and totally safe.

Amy says:

04:41pm | 11/08/11

@Tina

mabye I should rephrase that: I think its less about “guys like violence” and more about “Violence isnt a turnoff” for guys in general (and some girls)

anyway people shouldn’t take the violent side of games too seriously, I mean many would say Quinten Tarantinos films are art even though they are violent (I love Quinten Tarantinos films though!)

what Im saying is honestly its not a big deal as people are making out, I would be concerned about younger kids playing such games (as in parents do your bloody jobs!) but for sane adults theres nothing to be worried about

the apeal is hard to explain, just think of it as a big action/thriller movie but instead of watching you are “in” it thats the apeal for me anyway

Yuri says:

07:33pm | 11/08/11

Hmm, I noticed someone mentioned Dragon Age. Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but DA2 has a character called Anders, who leaves his manifesto everywhere and has a lot of hatred towards a particular group of people…

Carl says:

10:10am | 11/08/11

Yeah, damn secularists… how DARE they try to show that people can live together without the need to constantly have some massive pissing contest over whose imaginary friend is better.
The FACTS are that Scandinavia is the most secular region on the planet, and they also have some of the highest standards of living, the lowest crime rates (especially violent crime), the highest education standards, etc of any region on the planet… and then we look at the more “religious” countries on earth (Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, El Salvador, Haiti, USA, etc) and the fact that they are CLEARLY such bastions of equality, peace and understanding with such great track records in terms of civil rights, personal liberty, etc.
Some might argue that being “religious” and being “backwards” or “prejudiced” are related in some way… When was the last time a “militant secularist” killed an abortion doctor, flew a jumbo into a building, etc? I can’t seem to think of any… I wonder why.

Tina says:

07:31am | 11/08/11

You get angry at romantic comedies? Whats wrong with you?

Joan says:

07:43am | 11/08/11

Gosh Carrie you`re easily persuaded into violence - just the type to respond to violence on demand , a streeter rioters dream

MarkS says:

09:13am | 11/08/11

@Tina
I find romantic comedies insulting to my intelligence & boring. What’s wrong with you?

Tina says:

09:34am | 11/08/11

@ MarkS

It suits my own level in intelligence just fine. You must just be too smart for me.

Bob says:

02:42pm | 11/08/11

>>You get angry at romantic comedies? Whats wrong with you? <<

I got angry at Bridesmaids.

But that was because I was in a location and with people that made it very hard to walk out. Ten years in jail was seeming quite nice in comparison to sitting there for the rest of the movie at times.

Alan Baxter says:

03:44pm | 11/08/11

Ban the romantic comedies, but leave the zomromcoms alone.

adam says:

08:16am | 11/08/11

my plan when the zombies attack is to hang around with fatties. I can’t run fast but can run faster than a lard bucket. that and get some really cool guns

OchreBunyip says:

08:39am | 11/08/11

Come the Zombie Apocalypse, I’ll meet you at Bunnings.

Tina says:

08:52am | 11/08/11

@ adam

So maybe we should not encourage everyone to loose their weight and be healthy and keep a few fatties around for when the time comes so we can feed them off?

Mankind says:

08:57am | 11/08/11

We’re screwed if there’s a zombie apocalypse…no shot guns. Bloody John Howard, even when he got it right he left us woefully under prepared for the zombie apocalypse.

adam says:

09:07am | 11/08/11

Ochre see you in the chainsaw aisle
Tina a woman after my own heart, self preservation means I always encourage people to try every new grease burger McD’s brings out. Also, video games breed weak knees and ankles, all the better for falling behind

Thomas Anderson says:

09:29am | 11/08/11

There is a gun shop in Blacktown, and that is where I am heading in case of a zombie apocalypse. After strapping some spikes to the front of my car of course.

Mahhrat says:

09:52am | 11/08/11

And while all the fit people are using their fitness to outrun stuff, I’ll be sitting in a tank with all the food.

Tina says:

10:36am | 11/08/11

@ Mahhrat

You may have the food but the fit blokes have the girls. In case of a zombie invasion would you rather die happy on the run with the beach babes or be the only one to survive?

adam says:

11:20am | 11/08/11

Tina love the beach babe bit. He’d get lonely, come seek out the fitties and they’d steal his food.
Mind, his tank may just sway a few babes to his side.
I’m gunna go start digging my bunker

Kate says:

12:37pm | 11/08/11

@adam, according to the movie Zombieland, that is the number one rule of surviving the zombie apocalypse - cardio fitness.

Mahhrat says:

01:43pm | 11/08/11

@Tina, I have my girl.  4 years together in a couple weeks.

Love her to bits.  She loves me to.  And yeah, she’s overweight and maybe the physical part of our lives could be better, but I doubt you’d find two more happily together people.

The only reason I don’t like being fat is the health risks, not the fitness risks.  And do you really think I’d be in the tank without my family?  Rather doubt it.

Tina says:

02:11pm | 11/08/11

@ Mahhrat

Congrats! So your family will be the start of a new generation! You better invite one or two other families into your tank to prevent inbreeding, you know?

void says:

08:26am | 11/08/11

Having studied both incidents, I can tell you that Harris and Klebold shot most people at a relatively close range while the American Civil War soldiers had far inferior weaponry than we do today, though, with the crude ammo that they were using at the time, even a grazing shot could be potentially fatal.  If they deliberately mis-aimed in battle, it was more likely due to lack of experience, as many soldiers were young teenagers and weren’t yet ready to kill.

Dave says:

08:59am | 11/08/11

@ago you’re comparing apples with oranges. The kids at columbine had a lot of training with real guns, and wanted to kill as many people as possible. That’s why they could shoot well. American civil war soldiers were terrified of a slow and painful death (no painkillers in those days). Additionally the training for an American civil war soldier was largely based around large groups of people shooting at large groups of people, aim was not so important.

MarkS says:

09:03am | 11/08/11

Most people are not good killers. In most large armies taken from a large cross section of normal society only about 10% of front line infantry aim at the enemy.

The Columbine killers were clearly part of the 10% self selected as being killers aready.

Kate says:

12:39pm | 11/08/11

The Columbine killers had experience with weapons in real life and were shooting at close range, as others have explained.
Eric Harris was also a psychopath, a condition which affects an extremely small percentage of the population. Playing violent video games didn’t make him that way.

MD says:

08:49am | 11/08/11

It’s a good thing real guns aren’t controlled by keyboards and game pads then isn’t it?

Playing Gran Turismo doesn’t mean I’ll suddenly become an F1 driver.

Tina says:

08:59am | 11/08/11

I still think there must be something seriously sick about us as people that there is the desire and demand for games (or movies) featuring violence. Why do we have a desire for violence?

HappyCynic says:

09:23am | 11/08/11

The big difference is the suspension of reality.

A doctor or an architect relates his education to reality, a normal gamer suspends reality and first accepts that what he sees isn’t real, before indulging in the experience.  That is why he or she learns nothing from it.  The graphics are still nowhere near realistic (in spite of claims to the contrary) the worlds you play in do not feel real either (invisible walls, wonky physics, crap animation etc) and the entire experience is fed through a controller or a keyboard which continually reminds you that this isn’t real.

The attraction to this kind of violent media lies in the fact that we humans are at our very core, violent, vicious animals.  We simply paint on a thin veneer of civility and walk around pretending we’re not mindless beasts because it satiates our need to survive.  We survive better in groups than alone so we pretend to be nice to each other.

Thomas Anderson says:

09:32am | 11/08/11

Tina, because it is cool to jack someone’s car and then do burn outs on their head, as long as it is not real. A sane person with stable mental health will always know the difference between reality and fiction.

The Badger says:

09:40am | 11/08/11

MD
“War has taken on a video-game quality, as missiles are fired on enemy targets from halfway around the world.”

How do you think the Drones in Afghanistan launch their missiles?
I’ll tell you.
From keyboards and game pads in Virginia and Arizona

atthepub says:

09:47am | 11/08/11

With you all the way Tina.
I don’t know why the desire for violence (other than it merely being a manifestation of unmanaged frustration/anger) but I do know that society as a whole would be better off curbing rather than indulging that desire.

Buying violent video games for our toddlers/teens .. what are people thinking? Obviously not thinking at all.

TimB says:

10:00am | 11/08/11

“How do you think the Drones in Afghanistan launch their missiles?
I’ll tell you.
From keyboards and game pads in Virginia and Arizona “

The Last Starfighter has a lot to answer for it seems.

Elphaba says:

10:12am | 11/08/11

@atthepub, I think you would find most gamers would not support the buying of violent videogames for toddlers and kids under 18 either, and would support the introduction of an R18+ class preventing those children from doing so.

I suggest you do some research on the subject.

Tina says:

11:25am | 11/08/11

I think though you can not blame someone for coming up with these games. Its all about the demand. And they are being developped to be always more realistic and more cruel. And it sells. So its not the games that are the problem. 

There are so many areas of human behaviour (violence, sex, laziness, whatever) where we have to find out when we should hold back and when we can “unleash” our little primal creature.

atthepub says:

11:25am | 11/08/11

I suggest you open your eyes Elphaba.

Elphaba says:

11:32am | 11/08/11

@atthepub, that’s what I thought.  You know very little about the video game culture. 

Cheers.

Shifter says:

12:17pm | 11/08/11

@atthepub - From a young age I plan to train my future spawn in all manner of hand to hand combat, small arms, infiltration and demolition. This will include a primary focus on the use of heavy metal and computer games as training aids.

By age 12 I hope to have created the ultimate assassination machine.

Or someone who can complete Barbie Horse Adventures within 2 hours.

Seriously? Surely you can discern between learning an leisure. Surely you can discern between fiction and real life.

The amount of times I’ve studied The Lord of the Rings, suggests that I should be able to speak fluent elvish. Or given the amount of times I’ve hit the X button whilst playing Call of Duty, I should be able to reload a Colt M4 in under 10 seconds. Maybe because of the amount of times I’ve watched Iron Man I should be able to build a fully featured set of flying armour and associated power supply. To be honest, I don’t think I can do any of this.

I do know how to drive, but I credit my instructor from Ajax Driving School more than Gran Turismo. I can shoot a basketball, but my year 10 phys ed teacher would gain the credit over NBA Jam for that.

About the only skill I can credit to video games is practised hand-eye co-ordination and reflexes.

Tina says:

01:12pm | 11/08/11

@ Shifter

You could have learned the hand-eye-coordination-thing cheaper from watching porn.

Wynston Cruso says:

01:32pm | 11/08/11

And this is exactly what held up the R18 rating for video games for so long. Uneducated people who know nothing of the subject putting their ‘opinion’ in. Seriously atthepub, what research have you done on this that contradicts the fact that video games, violent or otherwise, cause more good than harm?

By the way, finally playing Fallout: New Vegas. Violent yes, but to say that thats why it’s good would be terribly naive. A story and setting to rival most movies.

Shifter says:

01:42pm | 11/08/11

@Tina - Not sure what porn you’re watching but most of what I’ve seen doesn’t require you to react quickly to a visual prompt.

I think you’re confusing hand-eye co-ordination with muscle endurance or RSI, whichever comes first.

By the way Tina, I’m guessing here that ex of yours must have really fucked you up because your responses certainly seem snarky towards anyone with a predilection towards video games.

Tina says:

02:08pm | 11/08/11

@ Shifter

Maybe. Not the type of games but it hurt that he would spend 24/7 with video games instead of spending time with me or at least give me hand when I run three times from the car to get the shopping inside. But its 2 years ago and I am not grumpy. I usually dont spend my day thinking about video games. I guess you just develop sentiments towards certain things through experience.

Mark says:

02:21pm | 11/08/11

To become a soldier one goes through boot camps, weapons training, and orienteering training…

What a stupid argument by the same two culprites (atthepub and Tina) who have cluttered this entire blog with their moral high ground “i’m mightier than thee” crap… Just because you’re both vegan, animal rights activist christian preachers does not mean you can question the integrity of the regular guy in this world who likes to shoot up things on an xbox… Its FUN. Just as shooting clay pigeons in real life is FUN… You guys find it fun to go to church and moan about “the kids of today” to all your christian mates, I find it fun to smash beers with mates whilst blowing heads of pretend soldiers.

Shifter says:

02:33pm | 11/08/11

@Tina - That dude sounds like a dropkick. I’d hate to quote that guy on Oprah, so I won’t.

John 117 says:

03:28pm | 11/08/11

@Shifter “From a young age I plan to train my future spawn in all manner of hand to hand combat, small arms, infiltration and demolition…  By age 12 I hope to have created the ultimate assassination machine.”

Already beat you to it.

Shifter says:

04:08pm | 11/08/11

God damnit John117. Guess I’m gonna have to create a supervillain or something.

David says:

04:39pm | 11/08/11

So when you play a video game which is a simulation, where the weapons are just images on a screen controlled by devices that feel and react nothing like real weapons, you’re teaching yourself how to kill. What about paintball, where the guns are real and the people are real. I don’t hear anyone complaining about that. Oh, hang on, I better not mention that before all the doogooders try to take that away from us too.

Shane* says:

09:27am | 11/08/11

He just couldn’t resist taking a dig at the Bible and Christians, could he?

I’ve reached the point where I no longer blame most people for their negative views on Christianity. What I blame them for is not having the nads to form an objective opinion of their own, based on primary sources. Instead they read the odd internet page, some MSM coverage of sex abuse cases, some hyperbolic letters to the editor, and Bang! Opinion formed.

If you do the research and you still come to the conclusion that Christianity is an inherant evil/punchline, then so be it. But it’s far more likely you’ll come to the conclusion that, on balance, it’s a good thing that is a net gain for humanity.

HappyCynic says:

10:17am | 11/08/11

Reading comprehension fail.

I think you’ll find if you read the article again that he’s not blaming the bible or anything else other than the fact that this Beivik guy was a mental freak.

It’s not hard to comprehend that, hell I only half read the whole article and I still understood the underlying message.  How frikking stupid do people have to be to miss that?

Phil says:

11:30am | 11/08/11

@HC
“Not Christian ethics or Muslim ethics or any other medieval system of morals based on the supposed words of an imaginary daddy figure in the sky.”
Straight from the article, maybe read the second half then hey?

It is still a diversionary tactic to throw religion in the mix, same as no doubt somewhere in this thread there will be some idiot trying to blame Abbot or Gillard for what’s happened as he mentioned left or right wing.

And about the fact “Beivik guy was a mental freak.”
That just sounds like you dont have a way of justifying or realising those actions were carried out by someone thinking clearly.

His attack was planned with military precision and carried out with such, the fact he and what happened is still being talked about means at least one of his goals were achieved.

Daniel says:

12:22pm | 11/08/11

I’ve read the Bible. His actions most certainly could have been from believing this violent fairy tale as much of the planet do unfortunately. You might be a ‘moderate’, but ‘moderates’ provide justification for extermists / fundamentalists.

David says:

05:00pm | 11/08/11

@Shane,

I form my views on Christianity and all religions based on rationality, reason and empirical evidence.

When I do the research, I find that Christianity is responsible for some of the most barbaric and immoral acts in the history of human kind, and has been responsible for setting back the advancement of science and the human understanding of our world by hundreds of years. How that can be considered a net gain for humanity I have no idea. The relatively recent trend towards a peaceful, democratic society that values the rights of the individual and condemns the barbaric religious practises of the dark ages has occurred in spite of the church, not because of it.

Alan Baxter says:

03:46pm | 11/08/11

Don’t be a hater, we need more love in the world. And, much as I’m a huge fan of Hevy Devy, I’ve never been told I look like him before.

MarkS says:

09:11am | 11/08/11

How so?

I read the article behind your link. Nowhere does the article say that the US Army uses video games to make their soldiers killers.

They use them in training, having been involved in the military I am certain the video games are not intended to train in firearms skills. They would be useful, particularly the VR ones in team postioning. Where do I go & what do I do as part of the team in this circumstance.

Much cheaper to have a squad linked up in a game then out in the boonies practicing the same reactions again & again until it no longer requires thought.

Thomas Anderson says:

09:34am | 11/08/11

Didn’t the US Army release that free game back in the day, called America’s Army, in order to encourage more young people to enlist? The game was pretty shit, but they deffo put in a lot of effort.

iansand says:

09:43am | 11/08/11

What are they practising to do?  Square dancing?

iansand says:

09:48am | 11/08/11

Here’s what I was looking for.  I suppose the US Army released this as a public service http://www.americasarmy.com/

TimB says:

10:15am | 11/08/11

Ynan eht nioj, eh iansand?

adam says:

10:38am | 11/08/11

Tim you are an evil genius

iansand says:

11:43am | 11/08/11

Why would I join a nany?

TimB says:

12:23pm | 11/08/11

Aww shit. Reference fail.

*Yvan eht nioj.

I coulda sworn I checked that….

Bob says:

03:13pm | 11/08/11

There’s a difference between training for the skills, tactics, etc required to kill large amounts of people and the mental readiness to kill large amounts of people. Paintball also teaches these skills and has been a common youth past time for quite some considerable time now. Plus it involves the receiving and inflicting of actual pain. I’ve yet to see it get blamed for this stuff even once.

Jeremy says:

02:10pm | 11/08/11

“understanding the difference between “killing” pixels and killing real people” - I havent killed pixels since commander keen… I upgraded to sprites with Doom, and then to Polygons with Quake, and havent looked back!

Geoff says:

11:07am | 11/08/11

What a load of rubbish Simon.  How very selective of you I could name any number of so-called LW media personalities that incite hatred and disdain.  They ridicule others and ignore their own hubris and hypocrisy.  Jones and Bolt may go a bit far on occassion but, people like; Carlton, Manne, Dreyfus, Jones, Marr, Adams,  and many others do the same.
I note the only political violence I have seen in Australia has been violence against; Conservatives, The Right-wing, and the Elderly or have you forgotten how poorly hanson was treated by the media and the LW so-called progressive public

Timmy says:

11:19am | 11/08/11

As I said, we will define evil in a way that suits us. With greater knowledge, comes greater capacity for this.

Luke says:

10:49am | 11/08/11

“But Alan, isn’t there an age when we ought to be putting video games behind us!”

Why? Why is it better to sit in front of the TV instead? Why is it better to play cards/bingo/board games? Why is it socially acceptable to obsess over football (of whatever code) yet never play it, but it’s almost taboo to enjoy playing computer games? Why is it better to rebuild a car engine, brew your own beer, write a novel, tend to a garden or anything else that equates to a hobby?

Why does what I do (and I don’t even play computer games) make a single gram of difference to your life, enough so that you feel that you can look down your nose at me and others who enjoy things you don’t like?

What made you the arbiter of “good choices”, so that you can denigrate my enjoyment? What made you so important that your hobbies are better than mine?

Please do enlighten me, you arrogant prick.

Elphaba says:

11:04am | 11/08/11

“isn’t there an age when we ought to be putting video games behind us! “

Why?

So long as you’re a good and attentive father/mother/son/daughter/spouse/friend/collegue/boss etc, and they don’t rule your life, why is it something that has to be given up?

amy says:

11:36am | 11/08/11

Backwards thinking…you see Videogames as “different” to other form of entertainment

let me tell you they arnt, people have different tastes in things, and you may not “get” it but theres no way in hell people should “change” because it scares you or “its not cool”

in other words Ill stop gaming when somone prys the controller out of my cold dead hands

bottom line…it wasnt religion, it wasnt games, it wasnt anything

this guy was batshit insane..end of story

Elphaba says:

12:07pm | 11/08/11

“batshit insane”

Good description, Amy.

Shifter says:

12:47pm | 11/08/11

@Gregg - ” it could be that mild nutters are made worse and for the worse of the worst it may be the environ that supports the tipping if not being the tipping point itself.”

So you’d sacrifice culture enjoyed by many for the acts of a few nutbags?

Would you care to burn a witch while we’re at it?

Alan Baxter says:

03:51pm | 11/08/11

“But Alan, isn’t there an age when we ought to be putting video games behind us!”

Nope. I still read comic books too, where you often find some of the most incredible storytelling. Video games aren’t just Pacman and Frogger any more.

Luke says:

10:42am | 11/08/11

“Governments could stop drug and alcohol abuse easily, but for some reason they don’t want to do it.”

Really? I’m sure they could slow it a little, but stopping it isn’t going to happen. The cliched, yet so appropriate response, is to point you towards the US Prohibition era. That worked well for them, didn’t it?

LC says:

12:04pm | 12/08/11

I think drugs can be let off the hook for this one. The guy was delusional and insane as f***. Same with the Columbine shooters, one was clinically depressed, the other was displaying psychopathic tendencies for quite some time.
Banning videogames, banning comics, banning metal/rap music, banning religion, banning dancing, banning the bible and probably also banning guns wouldn’t have stopped these people. The best chance we’d have would be in increasing funding to mental health bodies so these people can be more easily identified and treated and/or incarcerated.

Luke says:

12:06pm | 11/08/11

Remember Vietnam pilots delivering payloads into villages whilst listening to such anarchists as Rolling Stones, Steppan Wolf and Pink Floyd? Or how about those particularly evil ones who listen to Bach, Tchaikovski and Beethoven?

We should ban music!

Elphaba says:

12:20pm | 11/08/11

@Luke

Couldn’t resist…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx7XNb3Q9Ek

michael j says:

07:15pm | 11/08/11

OR indeed the unforgettable Kelly’s Hero’s where Donald Sutherland ,played Oddball whose Tank streamed music in a similar way in this WW2 classic,,
And being ex Armoured Smiles came to my face when the sixty minutes footage showed the yank full blast on the fifty cal and Enter Sandman(Iraq WAR 2) playing so loud it nearly drowned it out ,,YES there should be a Ban on it War that is not music,,,,,

Carl says:

01:42pm | 12/08/11

Yeah, he was a “christian”... Whether YOU want to accept that he was a “christian” or not is irrelevant. The fact is that HE believed himself to be a"true christian” and that he was “doing god’s work” by helping to save “christian Europe” from the Muslim hordes. Sounds VERY “christian” to me.
Many people (probably you included Clay) are more than happy to blame all muslims for the crimes of a few nutcases who decide to blow crap up or fly planes into buildings. The problem there, is that they also aren’t “true” believers of their particular religious ideology, just followers of some twisted version of it that no same person would follow/believe.
Instead of Christians like yourself just saying Breivik isn’t a “christian” because his actions don’t match up with what you think christianity is, how about YOU do something about the increasing number of fundaMENTAList “christians” who are doing everything they can to pervert the true messages of acceptance, peace, tolerance, etc that Jesus was spreading to his followers, and therefore create more people like Breivik who think that their monstrous actions are somehow sanction by god?

OchreBunyip says:

07:42pm | 12/08/11

VoodooGamer, your government needs you for the Captain Australia programme….

Geoff says:

04:26pm | 11/08/11

Don’t disagree with that JB.
BTW Breivik doesn’t represent any true Christian ethic.
And as much as he professes to admire bits of it, he fails to follow it.
He’s just a psycho.

James1 says:

01:32pm | 11/08/11

I’ve been gaming and playing FPS since Wolfenstein 3D, and I can’t even kill a spider.  When my daughter finds one in her room, if we can’t leave it there I catch it and release it somewhere that it won’t get eaten by birds.

Then I promptly hop on Red Dead Redemption, and Deadeye ten cowboys in the head with my Winchester Repeater.  I must admit though, I have never been able to execute the Irish guy on the cliff for the McReary brothers in GTA IV.

Aidan says:

01:15pm | 11/08/11

Chuck Norris!

The BaDgEr says:

04:54pm | 11/08/11

Same people who always save your ass (brains)
The Americans

RyaN says:

05:19pm | 11/08/11

@The BaDgEr: but what if they are banned from learning how to kill zombies too?
I am gonna make a metal helmet, that’ll sort em!

The BaDgEr says:

06:20pm | 11/08/11

I would suggest that unlike the first, you make this one out of something more substantial than tin foil.

RyaN says:

10:23am | 12/08/11

@The BaDgEr: I am guessing I will have to make you one that stimulates that part of your brain that potentially has a sense of humor that hasn’t completely shriveled up. What size is your head?

The BaDgEr says:

12:52pm | 12/08/11

I’m not the one that felt the need to make a new helmet ryan.

RyaN says:

03:27pm | 12/08/11

@The BaDgEr: oh god Badge, really!

Kate says:

01:22pm | 11/08/11

Spot on Ned. I’ve played GTA, but when I actually saw someone injured in a car accident, you can bet I was not desensitised, I was horrified. The majority of people are capable of making the distinction between fiction and real life.

Luke says:

02:20pm | 11/08/11

Yes, riots and looting NEVER happened before GTA.

People were all polite and caring to each other before computer games, heavy metal, Dungeons and Dragons, the Beatles and television/cinema.

drg says:

02:37pm | 11/08/11

@Luke
Riots in the past weren’t teens rioting without a reason. I could be wrong but I don’t think we’ve had riots where people drive over other people either.

Elphaba says:

02:42pm | 11/08/11

I’d post the studies that say you’re wrong.  I’d quote the stats that show how many games are released per year, and how many of those are banned.  I go through each flaw in the classification process and show you how it’d be improved.

But what would you care?  You’ve found your scapegoat, and you, like the other pig-ignorant non-gamers on here, would stuff your fingers in your ears before listening to some facts.

You think it’s sad?  I think you’re sad.

Jezza! says:

03:06pm | 11/08/11

Its very funny you mention Mario Kart… my brother loves this game… Yet, I do believe he has been charged with serious Violent crimes… must be the game…

Luke says:

03:31pm | 11/08/11

drg, looting and rioting has existing since humanity figured out how to smash their way into buildings. People used to be trampled underneath the hooves of mounted horses. And there didn’t really need to be a reason; opportunity is all that is required.

How often does anyone ever NEED to loot? At a guess I’d put that number at zero.

You have a glorified version of history. “The good old days” as they tend to be called also include such awesome highlights as: both World Wars (or wars in general actually), moral crusades (which may or may not be inspired by religion), rape, theft and all those fun things your rose tinted brain refuses to acknowledge.

And guess what… they all exist today. HUMAN KIND DOES NOT CHANGE. Older generations have always complained about how the ‘youth’ are being corrupted by social decay. It’s only recently that enough technological development has allowed us to pick specific things to say are the cause of that social decay.

But then who raised these prolematic ‘youth’? Who developed the evil computer games? Who produced the corrupting music? Who sells sexualised products aimed at children? It sure as shit isn’t the kids; it’s the adults who do that. According to your tangential midset, you should be complaining about the older generation.

Your logic is non-existent, and you obviously wouldn’t dream of doing any sort of research at all which may modify your opinions (no, the ACL and their warped crap isn’t research). And you will continue to argue your uninformed view even though it’s stupidly easy to find out information given the (evil, of course since it’s a recent development) internet.

As with my previous statement that human kind does not change, I know that you won’t try and educate yourself. But my eternal optimism gives me hope that you will prove me wrong. I’m obviously mad.

Brian says:

03:40pm | 11/08/11

Elphaba, please post those links. I ask this not to claim you don’t have them, but because I honestly want to use them myself, and am a little too lazy to find them!

Shifter says:

03:44pm | 11/08/11

“Is it really that hard to enjoy a game of mario kart”

Yes. Nintendo has seen fit to bestow ‘catch-up’ gameplay on Mario Kart, meaning if you are leading by whatever into the last lap the guy in 8th can still come from behind and slingshot past you on the line with little or no skill involved.

Makes me tear my hair out.

Elphaba says:

04:02pm | 11/08/11

@Brian, bear with me, obviously a lot of these studies come out of the US.  Furthermore, for every article debunking myths about violence in video games, there’s an article supporting the links.

Typically, it’s a chicken-or-the-egg debate.

This is a good one from PBS:

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html

Another good one with some links to further studies:

http://www.theesa.com/facts/violence.asp

But I’m sure the opponents on here will come back with their own studies as well.  To preempt them:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8449-violent-video-games-alter-brains-response-to-violence.html

And one with an more unbiased view:

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/03/a-video-game-violence-and-depression-study-that-looks-at-the-big-picture/

Tha’s just a start. 

The problem is, kids can get a hold of these games, and that’s wrong.  But since the average gamer’s age is 30 (http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/games/blogs/screenplay/gamers-getting-older-20110615-1g45f.html), banning the games is ridiculous.  The main consumers are legal age adults.  Instead, the classification system loophole that allows extremely violent games to be classed MA15+ in this country needs to be overhauled and those games reclassed R18+.  That way parents can make an informed decision.

James1 says:

04:16pm | 11/08/11

Sounds like it could be enough to drive you to murder, Shifter.  Hmm. 

I say ban Mario Kart as well.  Take no chances.

Kate says:

04:53pm | 11/08/11

Game, set and match to you, Luke and Elphaba!

Brian says:

05:30pm | 11/08/11

Thanks Elphaba. I’ve seen similar before, but I can never seem to find them when I want to throw them at someone. This thread goes in the favourites for future reference…

Amy says:

07:10pm | 11/08/11

for crying out loud…....

do you know why I’m not fond of mario? its boring, there is no stoy, its the same game from 1990, I couldnt care less about Mario and his messed up relationship with his girlfreind (though do have a theory that peach is really playing a sadistic game between mario and Bowser)

do you know a game I like? Deadspace, its really violent and you are cutting off “space zombies” heads and arms, but you know what? its got great atmoshphere, suspense and a story with a twist Issac clarke the main charachter is fighting for his life…trying to survive a strange alien threat and also struggling to keep his sanity intact

so you see where Im going here?

ALSO I’d imagine you dont play many games…so you realise your giving your opinion on things you know practically NOTHING about

yeah I advise against that, anyway I’ll simply repeat what I said above…this man was insane..thats it

nathan says:

03:17pm | 12/08/11

drg… i’d be very worried about anyone who read the bible to learn about history.

Jason Todd says:

03:28am | 15/08/11

Point of clarification sir, the bible is not a historical book in the same way as there are other historical factual books about wars and criminals in our libraries. The bible is a loose association of parables, fables and stories detailing the real or imagined goings on in a different part of the world 2000-ish years ago.

Real history books require a lot more in depth research, review and fact checking.

Shifter says:

03:46pm | 11/08/11

You’re wrong. It’s definitely water. The correlation is undeniable. Exposure to water must be stopped at all costs.

Alan Baxter says:

03:56pm | 11/08/11

Thanks. And yes, you’re quite right.

Elphaba says:

03:16pm | 11/08/11

While we’re at it, why don’t we ban alcohol?  Look at all the violence it’s responsible for.

You’ve answered your own question right there - why must the majority pay the price for the idiot minority?  Their voice is loud enough without giving them more traction.

If there was no violence before video games, then I’d agree with you.  But humans are inherently violent.  Unspeakable violence against fellow humans has been perpetrated since we swung out of the trees.  You can’t pin the problem on video games because removing them won’t solve anything.

You say that riots haven’t involved people being mowed down in their cars before - I doubt that.  What about all the hit-and-runs that happened before GTA was conceived?  Where did those idiots get the idea? 

For every person that may be unhinged enough to get an idea from a video game and then act it out in real life, there are hundreds who come from broken families, who were sexually abused, who are drug addicts and alcoholics and mentally ill, who will carry out a violent act, and it’s the fact that there’s no apparent reason, which makes people like you howl that violent video games must be stopped.  You need to accept that some people are inherently broken, that sometimes, people commit terrible crime for no reason than their own sadistic pleasure, and video games are no more responsible than death metal music or the ‘Saw’ film franchise.

Markus says:

03:17pm | 11/08/11

And we are saying that is a spurious argument, that could be applied to anything in existence.

- Not ALL people drink drive, but why not be safe rather than sorry and get rid of all cars so that they can’t affect anyone?
- The colour red doesn’t incite feelings of anger and violence in ALL people, but studies have shown that it can in some people. Do we really need the colour red that badly?

Brian says:

03:23pm | 11/08/11

That argument is just as applicable to the Bible (or Koran, Torah, Icelandic epics, Mein Kampf, Mao’s Red Book, Saving Private Ryan, Battlefield Earth, The Lord of the Rings, The Matrix and so on). Following its teachings selectively won’t turn ALL people into killers, but it may help encourage some people to do violent acts. Especially when sections of the first three specifically state that those acts should occur. Remember, we’re not necessarily talking about people that you would consider Christian, just those who use the Bible as justification. Shall we ban that to be safe? How about alcohol - MOST people don’t mug people when drunk, but some do. Or sports, generally people don’t use them as an excuse to attack others, but some do. Ditto for (apparently) violent movies, caffeine, a variety of legitimate medicinal substances, cars, guns, kitchen knives and so on.

The other thing is that there is some evidence that certain individuals become LESS violent due to the ability to release stress in a safe manner. I don’t doubt that some borderline nutcases are turned into real nutcases by violent video games. I also don’t doubt that some borderline nutcases are prevented from gunning down a shopping mall by being able to do it online instead. I challenge anyone to provide the numbers of both, and based on the logic that not playing games may make SOME people psycho killers we should make it compulsory for all!

Jeremy says:

03:27pm | 11/08/11

What Influenced Jack the Ripper?

RyaN says:

03:36pm | 11/08/11

@drg: yes, yes, lets just plug you into the matrix and enslave you!

Luke says:

03:39pm | 11/08/11

By that logic, we should ban books (all of them) because it might inspire one or two people to hurt others. I can give you a brief history lesson if you want, about how the written word has caused misery.

HappyCynic says:

03:46pm | 11/08/11

How would gaming encourage people to perform violent acts?  Why would it encourage people? 

You’re confusing cause and correlation, either deliberately or naively.  A violent person will inevitably be drawn to violent media of all kinds, do you propose we ban all violent media?  If so then what is defined as violent media, is all the killing and wars mentioned in historical documents considered violent media?  What about the news?  That contains violence quite often as well. 

Your solution is so silly it can never be taken seriously.  The reason is because all humans, (you, me, everyone) are naturally violent, and removing all violence from view won’t make anyone safer, violence will continue unabated.  When you get a little more life experience you may understand this.

James1 says:

03:55pm | 11/08/11

Further to that point, if the logic of the gentlemen who posted before me doesn’t work and you still feel a need to ban violent video games, you will have to overcome my non-violent resistance and pry my games from my cold, dead hands.  Because I wouldn’t want to live in a world without violent video games, or in a country where I wasn’t free to play them.

Seriously though, if you are against violent video games, don’t play them.  If you are seriously worried about being killed by someone who was spurred into killing people by a violent video game, get some help for that, because you are clearly neurotic.  You should be concerned about things that actually happen on a regular basis, like getting run over crossing the road, or injuring yourself falling out of bed (both of those kill far more people than killers inspired by video games - look it up).  As such, your time would be better spent lobbying for all beds to have cot-like sides.  It will do more to save lives than banning violent video games.

LC says:

04:07pm | 11/08/11

Oh I get it.

Without any evidence to support the case, blanket ban all violent videogames for EVERYONE the off-chance one inspires a spree shooting.
- Don’t ban any other form of violent media, which if the violent videogames = violence position was true, would be just as likely to inspire a spree shooting.
- Don’t improve mental health services to attempt to identify these people before there’s a problem.
- Don’t think about the who people play them without incident everyday around the world.
Just ban violent videogames.

How very simplistic and undemocratic of you.

I can vouch for many good places to put your head drg, but sand ain’t one of them.

Amy says:

04:09pm | 11/08/11

Because if somone is crazy enough to do such a thing ANYTHING might set them off

your talking about “getting rid of violent videogames” as if its nothing, its not nothing, depending on your definition of “violent” games worthy of banning your talking about a huge industry….and a medium that alot of people enjoy, and some of thease “violent” video games are not the silly toys you probably think they are, some of them are amazing interactive experiences

what do you like to do for fun? how about I ban that? you know…just in case

and your logic doesnt make any sense eather, because then we should be baning ALL forms of entertainemnt…you know just in case

oh and what scientific evidence do you have to suport this anyway?

Kate says:

04:58pm | 11/08/11

Improving mental health services will have a far greater impact on stopping violent acts than throwing blanket bans on things that 99% of people enjoy with absolutely no issues.
Cho Seung-Hui (Virginia Tech) was schizophrenic, Eric Harris (Columbine) was a psychopath, Dylan Klebold (Columbine) was clinically depressed. Three cases where the media were quick to jump on music and video games when in fact these were deeply mentally disturbed people. If properly treated, it is possible those incidents may have been avoided. Banning them from accessing movies, video games or music wouldn’t have done squat.

James1 says:

03:59pm | 11/08/11

You didn’t read it very carefully, did you?

He says that if we blame violent video games, we should also blame the Christian Bible.  In saying that we shouldn’t blame video games, the author also implies that we shouldn’t blame Christianity. 

Not very big on subtlety or nuance, are we?

Brian says:

03:59pm | 11/08/11

Try reading again - the article DOES NOT blame religion. It says it’s as responsible as computer games, and then says the games aren’t responsible…

Amy says:

04:54pm | 11/08/11

are you implying that Video games were originally made for militayr training?

yeah….they werent

Atari as I recall started the arcade craze with “pong” one of the first arcade machines they put in a pub…and then set off the first home consoles…..(then the videogame crash)

also, you know Nintendo originally made playing cards?

then sony and microsoft got in on the home console market..meanwhile PC gaming was going on..

anyway the history goes further back than that but it doesnt have much to do with the military

LC says:

12:58pm | 12/08/11

Yeah, soldiers really needed to play games like pong or frogger to hone their skills at killing people.

Yeah…

Dolt.

Amy says:

06:04pm | 11/08/11

but of coarse EVERYONE knows that videogames are played by mentally unstable geeks who have no life and are probably virgins (I point that out just to show how cool I am) and of coarse they are strange to me but you dont need no “sci-un-test” to say they mess you up….....because they just do

as far as Im concerned peopel should just do “normal” things like watch today tonight and home and away…like the rest of us

ok Strawman aside…yes I agree and it is agrivating, they no nothing abotu games, the culture or the kind of people who play them

Carl says:

02:13pm | 12/08/11

See, and there you go biscuit… your ignorance is showing.
“someone screaming in a devil voice while electric guitars are being raped” is not an accurate description of heavy metal. Death metal and black metal, but not heavy metal. It might interest you to know (but probably won’t as you seem to have already made up your “mind” on the topic) that Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, AC/DC, Guns N’ Roses, etc are all METAL BANDS… hell Wolfmother has even been described as “metal. Then there are also bands like Nightwish from Finland who had a lead singer (Tarja Turunen) who was a classically schooled full lyric soprano with a vocal range of three octaves… but hey, whatever you want to believe must be true right.

Amy says:

11:43am | 13/08/11

you know what I think is linked with mental illness?

comercial television, seriously its stresses me out with its outwright stupidity, especially shows like Home and away

I think that must be what causes all the ignorant/stupid people in our society

avtually I’ll go one further….the Beatles, is DEFINETLY linked to metal illness…half of it is drug induced giberish (Lucy in the sky with Diamonds)...I swear that what must be causing drug use

yes this is strawman….I’m not as ignorant to assume that people who have different tastes in things are somhow damaged, and I doubt its worth explain the apeal…..you cant fight stupid with logic

LC says:

01:25pm | 12/08/11

No wait, let me guess.
Logical fallacies in this piece = not OK
Logical fallacies used in another piece presenting the opposite point of view = OK?

Amy says:

12:20pm | 15/08/11

when your ready to stop being ignorant and join us in the 21st century (and no Im not ranting only about religion)

I will point out that you probably have never play a game? and have never attempted to apreciate thease movies?

so really youre giving opinions on things you know nothing about

twisted people are twisted people, regardless of religion or choice of entertainment

Anne Stocks says:

07:30pm | 15/08/11

Not sure who you are referring to Amy perhaps Alan who knows ??  I use peoples name when I’m having a conversation with them, it beats being rude. But I’m sorry Amy regardless of who you were directing your unkind remarks to, your perception is way off,  you don’t have to kill someone to know it’s wrong and harmful the same as with taking drugs, you also forget I live in the 21st century and have lived in the 20th century and the 19th century,  in other words I have been around the block more then once which means I have seen much more of life then you have… please correct me if I’m wrong.

The damage done with filling your mind with garbage has very harmful consequences as I explained in my first post,  sooner or later it catches up… and you can put me down as a person as much as you want Amy,  if it was indeed me you were having a go at,  but it won’t change that fact that you and others are in danger. As a Teenager and young adult I got into garbage and suffered the consequences the same as everyone else does… I have also witnessed distressed young people and Adults who have suffered from their addiction with this type of input ..

You need to get your focus onto something uplifting Amy because going by your post and your alarm it seems you are also filling your mind with poison, but then you seem to think it is alright to put others down for indulging in theirs, how did you word it ...stupidity, especially shows like Home and away, I think that must be what causes all the ignorant/stupid people in our society…they are indeed hard judgmental words! be careful when you point your finger at others Amy because 3 are pointing back at you ...so what’s your poison ?? and aren’t you being a just a bit hypocritical or so it seems going by your post??

Kind regards Anne..

Amy says:

03:49pm | 17/08/11

@ Anne Stocks allow me to be more sincere this time around

forgive me for perhaps getting a little angrey, however you don’t know how frustrating it is to constantly get “holyer than thou” people dissmissing games as trash and even worse, blaming them for tragedies like this, they themselfs dont even bother to pick up a controller or do a google search

they dismiss them as if they have no value, but I and MANY other people know that just isnt true, at their best they can be awsome

Like the spine tingling awe I felt when I first saw played Bioshock, and saw the underwater city of Rapture, the time when I laughed at the hilarious dark humour in Portal 1 and 2, the heart wrenching desicion I had to make in Mass effect..which crew member do I save while the other is left to die? the soul crushing feeling I had as I wandered through the desolate wasteland in the world of Fallout 3, my charachter looking for a father that had abandoned her..in a world that didnt care

if that is trash…then fine, but I love my trash

and Im under no illusion, I know better than anyone that gaming still has alot of growing up to do, it is after all a young medium

but its not a scapegoat, its not to blame

also my little rant about home and away was sarcastic, pointing out that people find fullf like that perfectly acceptible,,, but games for some reason arnt

and thats all i have to say about that

Alan Baxter says:

11:10am | 18/08/11

Anne said: “For those who rubbish the Bible which is the inspired word of God unless you read it with Spiritual understanding you cannot discern the good that it offers”

You mean good like this:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Force a rape victim to marry her attacker?!

Or this:

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Kill them both in the most barbaric way imaginable? Such goodness!

What about this:

Deuteronomy 17:12

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.

Don’t deny the priests!

Or this one:

Isaiah 13:15-18

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. 

Pretty harsh. I’ve never seen a video game that did that!

What’s that, you say? All that Old Testament stuff doesn’t count? Jesus came along and made everything peaceful and lovely? Here’s Jesus himself (allegedly):

Matthew
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

It’s not like your supposed word of god is without its “desensitising” elements.

Ellie says:

04:06pm | 20/08/11

Anne Stocks, I am interested in your history as a former atheist. You say that you had been an atheist for almost 30 years and a Christian for the last 30 years and you are 60 years old this year. That means you decided you were an atheist shortly after you were born. How is that possible? Young children are incapable of making such decisions. Were your parents both atheists?

Ellie says:

11:49pm | 20/08/11

Anne, I’m sorry to hear of your childhood experiences as I know what it is for a child to be abandoned by a parent.

You said you “came to believe in Jesus Christ as my Saviour when I was about 30 years old”. What exactly happened to you to change your mind and start to believe in Jesus?

Anne Stocks says:

09:50am | 22/08/11

As promised Ellie ....A Cup Of Hope      

A young woman went to her mother and told her about her life and how things were so hard for her. She did not know how she was going to make it and wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling. It seemed that as one problem was solved a new one arose…

Her mother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water. In the first, she placed carrots, in the second she placed eggs and the last she placed ground coffee beans…..She let them sit and boil, without saying a word. In about twenty minutes she turned off the burners She fished the carrots out. She pulled the eggs out Then she poured out the coffee into a cup…

Turning to her daughter she asked, “Tell me what you see.”  “Carrots, eggs and coffee”, her daughter replied. The mother brought her closer and asked her to feel the carrots. She did, and noted that they were soft. She then asked her to take an egg and break it. After pulling off the shell, she observed the hard-boiled egg. Finally, she asked her to sip the coffee. The daughter smiled, as she tasted its rich aroma. The daughter then asked, “What’s the point, mother?”

Her mother explained that each of these objects had faced the same adversity — boiling water — but each reacted differently…The carrots went in strong, hard and unrelenting. However, after being subjected to the boiling water, they softened and became weak…The eggs had been fragile. Its thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior, but after sitting through the boiling water, its inside became hardened…The ground coffee beans were different, however. After they were in the boiling water they had changed the water…

“Which are you?” she asked her daughter. “When adversity knocks on your door, how do you respond? Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?”…

So what is The Real way to Overcome Adversity in our Lives.

Well the Wonderful Truth is that we don’t have to go it alone because when we go through Adversity when Troubles and Worries and Fear overwhelm us when we start to feel like the Carrot or the Egg or even the Coffee bean that somehow says it’s all up to us to do the changing and and even though this may seem to be working at first it can leave a bitter aftertaste not only for us but for others…

Yet there is a way to change our fear, anguish, worry, confusion and all the crippling emotions that we experience…

Because although we may not be able to change the situation or the circumstances that are causing our heartbreak there is some one who knocks at our hearts door who offers to carry our burdens for us and as we open the door through Repentance seeking His will and accepting with thankfulness and all that He has to offer then He will give us His rest because He is our rest…

How do we thank our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by trusting Him and believing we are not alone and that He holds our hand and always understands and then as we place our lives into His keeping we do change and our colour reflects the Rainbow because it is Jesus in us that radiates His Colours of Hope and they are clear and without blemish .Matthew 11:28-30 - Revelation 3: 19-20 - Ezekiel 1:28

We remember it’s not what life throws at us that causes us to despair it’s the lie that there is no one who really cares.

Kind regards Anne.

Ellie says:

08:15pm | 22/08/11

Thanks for your considered reply Anne.

Having travelled through many third-world countries and observed their abject poverty, but also their peace and happiness in their inherited religious beliefs (namely Buddhist, Hindu, Roman Catholic, and Islam), I would never presume to attempt to take your beliefs away from you. I understand the great comfort it gives you. However, you need to realise that not everyone thinks like you and you need to allow other people to hold their different beliefs or non-belief.

I am an agnostic atheist and I know you think I am wrong. I also know you disagree with the billions of people around the world who are not Christians but subscribe to other religious beliefs.

You will never change my mind and I know I will never change yours, and that’s OK.

Best wishes

LC says:

01:23pm | 23/08/11

This blog isn’t for preaching Anne.

Anne Stocks says:

04:52pm | 23/08/11

LC says ...This blog isn’t for preaching Anne… I don’t preach, I’m not ordained that’s a Man’s role,  I share God’s Truth but even if I did preach, I wasn’t aware you wrote the rules for Punch LC did you tell David our boss,  he normally advises if the rules have been changed and I haven’t heard from him have you? but then if it is going to be your way , well sadly there will be no more Punch because Atheists will also be banned from preaching their religion and then LC what will you do??? you won’t have anyone to dictate to and order around and even worse there will be no one to applauded you for your Atheistic dogmatism ... Don’t you just Love Punch ... please leave it alone LC and go and play with your ipod.

Kind regards Anne.

LC says:

09:42am | 24/08/11

I’m saying that because this thread isn’t about religion Anne. It’s about wether games do or do not cause killing sprees, and the awnser seems to be a resounding “no”.

If you wish to yap on about your religion, you’re welcome to, but please take it to an article about religion.

There’s a basic rule appicable to all blogs and forms of debate Anne, and that’s to stay on topic.

Jhallam thinks you’re preaching too. You gonna tell him to “go and play with your ipod”?

C.M.G says:

08:48pm | 29/08/11

Hi Anne, my names Chanah, I’ve been reading some of your posts, don’t understand a lot but you love god like my Mum did, she was real kind to people, I miss her lots. I’m in care now Bob and Joan are real nice to me, I work 3 days a week cleaning, my boss is real nice too she said I do a good job. I was thinking you might be able to help me, I’m not real smart like you but I’ll try hard, My Mum said I was smart in other ways like knowing whats good and bad, people too, if they get smart with me I get smart back, you would like my girlfriends they helped me write some posts the real hard ones.  Mum use to talk about your god like he was really good but they told me at school he was a father and I’m a bit scared of him because my father hurt me real bad before he ran away, they said Jesus was gods son but I don’t know much about him either but I want to,  I use to have a brother once but he is with Mum now, hope you can help me. My Mum use to cook for rich people, is it your job.

I’m working tomorrow but will check when I get home thanks - Chanah.

C.M.G says:

09:04pm | 29/08/11

Hi Anne I’m sorry I forgot I’m working for the big boss tomorrow and he takes me and the other girls out to Macdonlds for tea so I get home later but will write back next day.

Thanks Chanah

Anne Stocks says:

03:21pm | 29/08/11

JHallam says: Anne, you talk of your god as like your god is human. Why is your god egotistical?...It seems J, I mustn’t have made myself real clear,  I didn’t say my God was egotistical but that others say He is.

God is Love and real Love is not self-seeking it’s Sacrificial and puts others first and it can only come from God… we can’t pump up our flesh to do it, show it, or give it.

Jesus Christ is my Best Friend and He is real,  we have a great relationship,  He is also my Spiritual Husband as He is for all those who believe in Him.

I’m sorry J I’m in the middle of cooking and the Computer Technician has just left so I’m way behind but I will get back to you tonight.

Kind regards Anne

C.M.G says:

05:02pm | 29/08/11

Hi Hallam, I’ve been checking out the posts on Punch it’s real cool, going to look at more later, hey why are you so angry,  Anne just trying to help you don’t you think, yer sure she got a plum in her mouth, bit educated, I didn’t finish school, I wasn’t too smart but my Mum said being kind and nice to others is what it’s all about, not how often the marbles roll,  I do clean real good, my boss said best he seen, I only work 3 days a week but I don’t need much. My Mum she believed in god same as Anne but if he is like my dad I don’t want to know him, messed me up real good,  Mum said her god was different, but I don’t know, I’m sitting on the fence, hope to lean something thats why I’m going to keep reading, but kinda weird sometimes, with sky fairies and pink things and their not too kind, they bag heaps.

Nice talking Hallam,  your kinda nice too even if your angry, you say sorry, lots don’t,  it will work out ok you’ll see.

Anne Stocks says:

09:25pm | 29/08/11

JHallam says: God to me, is man made, evidenced by a book written by man….J. do you think that if I showed you evidence that the Scriptures could not have been made up by man and that only God could have known some of the things He told them to write,  that you would change your mind ? think about it I don’t want to waste my time.

Seems you have a new friend J, I wonder how old C is, sounds like a child adult but sweet, sad so many children are hurt. Anyway I do agree with C I think your nice too even if you are sometimes angry.

Kind regards Anne

Anne Stocks says:

05:15am | 30/08/11

Hi JHallam,  the question was “do you think that if I showed you evidence that the Scriptures could not have been made up by man and that only God could have known some of the things He told them to write,  that you would change your mind ?

Please think about this J, would it really make any differance or have you already made up your mind and nothing will change it ? do you want to believe in God?

Good to hear your not angry, I’ll tell Chanah.

Kind regards - Anne.

Anne Stocks says:

07:17am | 30/08/11

Hi Chanah I’m sorry but the link I posted did not come to you complete it must have been too long so it is not what I sent,  hope this one works for you.

http://youtu.be/BKmdIdQg3Ks

Take Care Anne

Anne Stocks says:

07:45am | 30/08/11

Hi Chanah I found the right link this time, I’m sorry but don’t worry about the other two links. This is the one I was looking for.

http://youtu.be/kiGDo_FIjFg

Anne Stocks says:

01:18pm | 31/08/11

JHallam says…. Oh, I know, you’re being sarcastic! .... Sorry that you think so J but in no way was I being sarcastic it was a touch of humour,  if it offended you it was not my intention but it does show you consider me an enemy and True in regard to your rejection of God and His guidelines you are,  but I do not consider you less then me as a person of worth,  perhaps in many ways you are a much more gifted and a more intelligent person by worldly standards then I will ever be but I also will not allow myself to be denigrated and considered as infer to anyone else even with all my weakness and shortcomings and if people are seeking to do this which I have experienced on Punch although the opposite also,  I just close the door, so J if you wish me to continue responding to your posts please treat me with respect and stop attacking me.

As for your desire and others for me to supply proof of God your Creator as to being a reality, I have now posted over 540 posts on Punch maybe a few less maybe a few more from the time I started and although I have shared honestly about my own life experiences, and my gifts, played others games and overlooked or even joined some in their play acting,  and used humour to get a point across or just for fun. But I have also given full proof of the relevancy of the Scriptures and the reality of God,  even if most of those who I was having a Conversation at the time because of their limited understanding of the Scriptures have rejected or did not understand what I shared.

So it is now your choice J to read all my posts or seek to find out more about the Scriptures,  because to be honest I will not respond to your demands if you can’t be bothered enough to do so, because once again it would be a waste of time when going by what you have shared it shows as it does with the others who claim they are irrelevant, unimportant, inaccurate as well as man written that you have little or no understanding as to what they are all about…....

It’s your Choice if you need help with links etc let me know if your not interested then it’s close of conversation .

Kind regards Anne.

Anne Stocks says:

04:50pm | 11/09/11

Why do you call yourself a Spade?????

Protection?

Kind regards Anne