The shop must go on…

Joan says:

07:26am | 08/08/11

Gillard and her cornball Team of Brown, Oakeshott and Windsor are the main reason for retail downturn. The nation lacks confidence in this cornball government which smacks on a new tax monthly and calls it levy or a price. Gillard who has taken Australia Industrial relations back to pre 1992 last century. The No Carbon Tax lie the biggest cause as nobody trusts Gillard word on anything.. The squirms and twist on evey policy , pink batts,  BER, the scam of a Cardon tax - Gillard eleborate money shuffling and permit swapping all suspect, a scam artists dream, the tax payers nightmare. . Gillard team of cornballs on track to ruin Australia- its not retail shop hours. The new Myer in Melbourne is the best shopping experience in glam surrounds and if you want down market two dollar shop - shopping just a short walk to Victoria Market. Don’t blame retail, blame Gillard Team of cornballs they are wrecking the Australian economy in every way.  Australians are not spending thanks to Gillard Team ,Australians have 2 more years to endure of this incompetent government, and they won’t be spending up big because of uncertainty.

KH says:

07:44am | 08/08/11

Joan - are you on drugs or just naturally this foolish? 
1. Global financial issues - a lot more people are being a lot more careful about their money.
2. Australians on the internet have always known we are getting ripped off - not always by shops but by the distributors and importers who charge what they want with exclusive licensing deals to make it impossible to compete.  So now we just bypass them where possible.
3. The Australian dollar being better than the greenback means for the first time in decades buying in the US is cheaper than here.  With the cheap shipping deals, why pay three times the price?  I myself have saved thousands going directly to the US - I’m fed up with massive price hikes on the same items in this country.
4. The Australian government, whoever it is, has little or no influence on global economics.  We are a minnow in a sea of sharks.
5. If the coalition had been in government when GFC Mk1 hit, they probably would have done pertty much the same things - that was the lesson learned from the depression - shutting up shop and not spending was disastrous - it brought economies to a halt.  Most governments in the world were forced to take similar action to keep things moving and avoid a massive halt that would have put millions out of work and out of their homes.  I suppose you think that would have been a better option.

Michael says:

07:50am | 08/08/11

Like it or lump it, the people are responsible for this, it was the people’s mandate that undid workchoices and stopped employers being able to employ kids for only a couple of hours a day after school or on weekends.

If retailers go belly up, or you simply can’t find retailers trading on weekends and PH’s it is because the majority want it this way, perhaps these consequences weren’t considered important at the time?

TChong says:

07:51am | 08/08/11

Joan
As a “: health professional” your qualifications and many years of experience are recognised, and you get the award wage, at least , do you not?
How do you reckon you would fare under a full -on workchoices ?
How about an agency nurse do your job for less pay per hour, and out you go ?.Would you be so keen on a deregulated workforce then.?
The cafe latte at Gloria Jeans or Starbucks might be a bit cheaper, bit with less money in your pocket, you probaly wouldnt be out buying one.

Joan says:

08:20am | 08/08/11

I negotiated my deal. Everybody needs to be paid at least basic wage. But why get paid greater hourly rate if you work weekends? Same work. Nothing worse than seeing part-timers getting paid greater hourly rate, leaving bulk work to full timers or to clean up after them cos they don’t know. And why should workers be paid a 17% loading to go on holiday? As a student I worked for peanuts- thanked the owner for giving me experience and training me. Once you have experience you can negotiate.

TChong says:

08:45am | 08/08/11

Thanks Joan
Nice to have a civil reply on Punch ( can be a rarity on many topics) for an opposing POV.
Have a good day.

LeftRightOut says:

08:50am | 08/08/11

Where I agree with Joan, is this government’s track record of instability. This mob talk about carbon [dioxide] “pricing” as giving certainty to business, yet with their chopping and changing approach to policy, certainty is utterly lacking.
The fact that the coalition was wedged so tightly on IR law, has left them too scared to even talk about it… to Australia’s loss.

Tubesteak says:

09:00am | 08/08/11

LeftRightOut

Not sure about your comment on shopping in Sydney. I find it pretty easy. All the stores are pretty well centrally located in and around Pitt St Mall, Martin Place and Castlereagh St.

However, when I next go looking for work shirts I might try the internet. TM Leeuwin has some good stuff and much cheaper than here. The only problem I’m still having with the internet is delivery. Sometimes it’s too much to have delivered to work and carry home and I’m not at home when the postie delivers. I think we should allow Saturday deliveries so I can arrange to be at home on time and I should be able to choose what day it is delivered.

That’ll really put the wind up traditional stores.

Joan says:

09:13am | 08/08/11

Well KH - Mrs Jones and her lovely shopping daughter are really not too worried about GFC and US crisis, its not what they discuss over a cuppa. But Gillard bag of lies and her cornball team, and the hike in utility bills oh yeah!  And of course cheap airfares and holiday to Bali good deals for travel- money available for that.  Don’t believe anyone does 100% shopping on line. especially Mrs Jones or her daughter. The downturn in retail 90% courtesy Gillard and her cornball team.

michael j says:

09:29am | 08/08/11

award wage be stuffed,why is the average wage 3 times more then the minim wage , simply because it is a bullshit statistic that is used to cover up the real state of things,
The GFC never existed in this country because we (AUS) never bought any phantom debt from the yankie greed scheme,so how did putting a bit of tin foil in some-ones roof stop Australia from going broke ?
The retail trade is not going well because because people don’t have any money left over after paying for services that have blown sky-high after incompetent state government’s have made stupid mistakes, 
how can we have no inflation when my last rates bill went up by ? % and all other services,water, electricity,and such follow ,average rents are far more per week than pensioners even receive, house reprocessions are nearing record highs , So having a Country that some would like to see with no minim wage and no limit on the minim hours worked will not put the majority in a better position ,my son was recently working for below the minim wage because he could not find any work, none of my tradie mates ,the young ones ,have money left over to spend , the phantom jobs in mining the foreign owners want filled with there own nationals that will not put 1 cent to our economy probably not even taxs,,
so if retailers want to keep their doors open 24/7 i hope they get billed for the Carbon and not me ,,

iansand says:

10:14am | 08/08/11

Anyone who thinks that the decline of retail has something to do with the last 4 years (and nothing else) or talk of a price on carbon emissions has their political blinkers bolted to the side of their head.

Bob Real says:

10:26am | 08/08/11

@KH - you hit the nail on the head. The Coalition’s initial response to GFC1 would have been similar. The difference would have been that confidence/trust in the coalition is much higher. They are more consistent and competent economic managers. They would have wound back the stimulus earlier and we would be in a much better position today with a smaller debt and more confidence. The electorate sense this and cannot wait to toss labor out in two years time no matter the irrelevant chatter. They are waiting with their baseball bats and nothing Labor says will change this as nobody is listening anyway. It may be a little unfair but the coalition has built up decades of trust in their economic management, a ‘race memory’ Labor do not have this, quite the opposite…. Perhaps Turnbull as Labor PM could turn things around though.

George says:

11:07am | 08/08/11

You rusted on Liberal psychos would bother catching the bus or driving to work, spending a reasonable amount in doing so, for 2 hours work?

What needs to give is the exhorbitant rents being charged by the rentier pigs in this country not the piddly little wages retail workers make.

Tubesteak says:

11:09am | 08/08/11

Bob Real
If people had more confidence in the Libs then they wouldn’t have lost in 2007. They would also have won in 2010. But they didn’t.

Moreover, if they had wound back the fiscal stimulus earlier then we would be in a much more precarious position than we are in now. The 2-speed economy we have (due to the effects of the GFC) would be much more pronounced.

It’s Treasury that ultimately sets the levels of govt spending in the economy. The govt merely chooses where and how the money is spent. In the case of a necessary fiscal stimulus it doesn’t matter how the money is spent jsut as long as it is spent. As Keynes said you can busy money in jars and pay people to dig them up.

Damian Parkhill says:

01:18pm | 08/08/11

As a baker working night shift I have to heavily object to LRO and Joan’s belief that the abolishing of work-choices and the reintroduction of penalty rates should be reversed.

For a start its key in understanding how work-choices brought about the removal of the Howard government, Howard foolishly believed/imposed (or deliberately set the workers up for) the idea that abolishing concepts such as unfair dismissal claims and penalty rates would stream workplace relations and promote growth, based on the concept that no business would take advantage of this incredible boon because to do so would be “illegal” for them to do so. Once the legislation was brought in, the floodgates opened as employers thought “hey we now can take money from the workers and treat them like s…” and many of them reamed the system for all they could (proof can be found in the amount of calls Howards AWA watchdog got in the first day alone - something in the excess of 10k calls all about employees that had their contracts altered in a way that took away from them). This heavily effected me as a baker, both in the concept of low pay (you try living on 40k a year as a fully qualified trades person!) and the quality of treatment that came on the back of businesses believing that if anyone stood up to them (and it happen to me twice because I said something about said businesses receiving unpaid overtime from the bakers, swearing and abusing staff and their -shocking- OH&S standards), they could threaten them with dismissal without repercussions. Its very little wonder with behavior like that being experienced by people that Howard lost the ‘07’ election to Rudd.

Loss of Penalty rates also would be bad, while these restrict the times of the day that employers might be willing to employ people, its also important to remember that those same rates serve to dissuade employers from working their staff around the clock, and while that might serve the people of Hong Kong for example….. its important to point out that we’re not them, and HK industrial relations and workplace conditions are horrible compared to ours.

What is really needed is for both people and companies to make a stand against the price reaming though duties and parallel import policies based on economic zones, which is motivated by nothing but greed and exploitation of the Australian people and pi..es over the base concept of free market enterprise that many of them harp away about to convince governments to stay out of their business.

Ben C says:

01:52pm | 08/08/11

@ Damian Parkhill

Unless you’ve experienced Hong Kong workplace conditions and industrial relations, and also understood how the people there live, I don’t think it’s wise to compare Australia and Hong Kong, or describe their conditions as “horrible”. They may be horrible for your standards, but they’ve worked that way for many years now, just as Australia has under the union influence.

AdamC says:

01:53pm | 08/08/11

This is an odd thread. To me, LeftRightOut summed it up best. Gillard, Rudd and Swansong are (obviously) not solely responsible for the state of retail in this country. However, their wholly ideologically-driven industrial relations regulatory settings, as well as a general lack on consistency in policy, are obviously making the situation worse.

And Sydney CBD is a perfectly decent place to shop. That new Westfield mall is great.

Damian Parkhill says:

02:24pm | 08/08/11

@Ben C

The comparison about HK is actually LRO’s if you read what he said….. Also I’ve read and heard about their system from a number of people and sources and what I’ve heard horrifies me….... I don’t want our system in anyway shape or form to become like theirs…..

Perhaps its time that instead of us saying we should be like ‘such and such a country’ it should be the other way around

Ben C says:

03:13pm | 08/08/11

@ Damian Parkhill

As far as I can see, LRO was saying that Melbourne wasn’t as convenient as HK when it came to shopping, nothing about their working conditions other than normal pay on Sundays.

Further, like I said earlier, try working in those conditions before judging - I’m withholding judgement on their working conditions until I get my chance to move over there (would love to experience the workforce over there, as well as spend time with family that still live there).

It would be admirable if we had an industrial relations system that the rest of the world looks up to, but I don’t think it would be possible, as industrial relations is very much dictated by our culture.

Fiona says:

05:02pm | 08/08/11

Micheal, kids still do part time jobs after school and on weekends. If you’ve had teenagers around you, you’d know this. They were a big part of the reason I didn’t like workchoices.
Joan, if you’re a nurse (as Tchong says), then shame on you. You would know already that weekends can be busy too. The big difference being that hospital operating theatres are only open for emergency ops and that there are lots of discharges on weekends creating lots of work for the staff. For those of us with kids, finding child care on weekends (particularly if your partner is also a shift worker) can be extremely difficult and being away from them on weekends isn’t great either. For these reasons we get penalty rates.
KH, I agree with your sentiments (points 3 & 5 particularly)

Gregg says:

08:55am | 08/08/11

Doc.,
Sure there are many capitalists in China and if they get too big and are not of the relevant flavour with the Communist regime, they’ll likely get pulled down a peg or two if not just disappear.
Capitalist flavours and plenty of shopping there may be these days but they are still communist politically, limited freedoms and less limited when it comes to human rights abuses with their minorities, many of whom live in what used to be a different country called Tibet.

If you believe China is not a communist country then it is you who are ignorant, that they are communist not stopping Australia and other countries trading with them but that is more for mutual benefit than respecting the communist traits I have mentioned.

” As a so called capitalist country I have never understood why we in Australia have so much restrictions on shopping hours, banking etc. I opened my first bank account in China seven years ago on a Sunday. That in my mind is real customer service.”
You may find in time it is the culture that has developed in most western countries, one of there being an acceptance that working is for the work days of the week and the weekends are for relaxing and participating in liesure activities, something that is very well established in many European countries, the UK, the US, Canada and NZ along with Australia even if trading times of some businesses have become more liberal in recent decades, though here in Australia there has often been a strong union influence, not to mention that not everyone does not mind missing out on their weekend.

You’ll probably find that not all Asian countries are the same as China in all respects of commercial activities though in general you could say something like the west does it their way, the east or the orient their way, the Indians theirs and possibly a whole lot more differences with countries where Islam is dominant and then the desperate peoples of the have not countries will probably do whatever is necessary to survive just as most people will.
The masses of population also will have an effect.

So yep, Australia is different in many ways and you’ll be better advised to recognise the reasons rather than stay ignorant of them.

PTom says:

09:54am | 08/08/11

Who own the companies? Either the government or the army, Do people have a right to vote or have as many childern as they want? These are what make China communist not trading.

Why is Australia the best place to live? Because people could go home on weekend and early during the week and have a good family life.

Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

10:46am | 08/08/11

@ PTom. Why you say:  Who own the companies? Either the government or the army??

The No 1 paint Company in China is Nippon Paint. It has about 20%  of the market. It is majority owned by a Singapore family and one of the sons in the family is a professor in Australia. We used to work as professors in the same Dept at a Uni in Australia and so I know the details of the family’s fortunes quite well.

Paint is not just house paint but all the paints in cars, ships, planes, machinery and many industrial products. This makes the owner one of the richest families in the World.

So what is this story about companies in China being owned by Govt and army? But I do agree that it is true that many large companies in China are State Owned Enterprises’s as in Singapore. But we need to accurate in trying to understand China as our most important trading partner. However, I must also confess as a foreigner who had worked in China I do not know China as well as I would like to.

Expat Ozzie says:

11:05am | 08/08/11

Dr B S Goh: I completely agree with everything you have said. The Chinese are steeped in trade and business. I to live in an Asian country, not China, but there is a large Chinese population and they own/run most of the business here. If you look at the driver of a BMW you invariably see a Chinese business man behind the wheel.

The shopping hours here are also just as relaxed, I can find food at any hour of the day and get great discounts if I haggle well.

I also agree with the last sentiment, Oz is the best place on earth except for the shopping.

Andrew says:

11:20am | 08/08/11

Why do so many people continue to associate “communism” with a lack of freedoms?  The two are completely separate concepts and have nothing to do with each other.  Communism is simply a form of economic management, whereby there is (in theory) no individual property ownership, and all work for the good of the state overall.  A capitalist system is the opposite, whereby people work for their own benefit, and as a sideeffect tax revenue is raised to look after common needs.  This has NOTHING to do with how restrictive the government is, how draconian their policies are, or what freedoms are or aren’t available to the populace.  It is quite possible to have a capitalist authoritarian society (Nazi Germany, anyone?), or a free communist society (look at every hippy commune in existence).  Now, typically communist economies don’t function particularly well, so the government in power is required to employ some heavy-handed systems to keep the public in line, but it certainly has nothing to do with the economy.  Saying that China is communist because people can’t vote and have as many children as they want shows a staggering level of ignorance of what these words actually mean.  China has a somewhat centralised economy, but in many ways could be considered far more capitalist than most western economies.  Their historical leaning towards wealth redistribution is almost completely gone, with financial disparity just as high or higher than western nations.  State ownership is still common, but increasingly less so, and people and companies are generally free to engage in commerce which is free of restrictions, in some ways more free than here.  China is certainly NOT a communist country anymore.  Still authoritarian, yes, still lacking basic human rights in some cases, yes, but fast becoming the most capitalist country on Earth.

MK says:

12:27pm | 08/08/11

Sorry doctor BS,
where did you get the communist branding from this Article?
Penbo mentions porkbelly and chinatown.
thanks for the Good laugh about Nippon paint being a chinese company

PTom says:

12:53pm | 08/08/11

So by Andrew and Goh description Singapore and Thailand are communist while China is not.

Economic management principle where by no individual property ownership is not the only thing, there are others like companies require Chinese partners to operate in China. Communism is a sociopolitical aspects as well not just economic principle.

BTW if no individual property ownership only was the only thing that defined communism then on one from the right would be whinging about Labor or the Greens being communist would they.

China maybe less communist and more socialist today, but they are still not democratic nor capitalist.

I have no issue trading with China, but we should not ignore the people for the sake of money.

Adam says:

01:09pm | 08/08/11

Gregg - you obviously have no idea what the word communist means. I think it’s you that is the ignorant one.

You think limited freedoms and human rights abuses are what makes a communist state? We have those in Australia to a much smaller extent, are we part communist?

Communism is about communal ownership of property and the means of production, rationed access to free goods and services as needed and the end of a wage based system.

Communism in China disappeared decades ago. Think before you open your mouth next time.

Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

06:23pm | 08/08/11

@ MK

You are a smart Alec ! Yes many people have been confused by the name, Nippon Paint, suggesting it is Japanese, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Paint.

It is the largest paint Company in the World. In 2000 it even tried to take over ICI of UK.

The Singapore Company was set up by Cheng Liang GOH and his extended family is now the driving force behind Nippon Paint. It is a great story of how a Singapore company became so large globally. We have nothing comparable in Australia.

Mick says:

02:55am | 09/08/11

Sorry, but 1) China will never be the leading economic superpower of the planet (WAY too many things working against them), but unfortunately people just love jumping on that bandwagon, and 2) shopping in Shanghai?? Surely you mean fake stuff? But you did not mention that. And even then there are far better places to buy. As for brand name stuff, it’s taxed to the hilt (free trade…yeah right!) and costs a fortune. HK shopping ok, but mainland? They all go abroad to do it! Ask some mainland Chinese where the best place to buy designer clothes, electronics, cosmetics etc are.

Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

08:10am | 09/08/11

@ Mick.

I do not need to defend the good things about China and rubbish them about the bad things in a huge and complex country with a very long history.

My main interest is to try to promote a better understanding by Australians of China as it is the most important economic partner of Australia.

Furthermore I believe China, Japan and South Korea will increasing be more important as our security partners as US goes broke in a great hurry and USA may have little choice but retreat to the Americas and Europe.

Mike lets look at what you are saying. Fake stuff in China? Yes plenty of them. The Chinese Govt recently even had to close down look alike Apple shops selling Apple computers and phones.

But are you also saying you cannot buy real genuine branded and other goods in China? For your information all the major companies are in China selling their goods and services.

These two statements above illustrate the complexities and dynamical forces working in China and moving China’s economy at great speeds forward for our benefits. Similar things are happening in India.

Why do Chinese go to HK and Paris etc to buy luxury goods? Simple have fun traveling and save some money in not paying the taxes on luxury goods in China.

We Australians used to do the same thing by buying our cameras and video players up in Asia before import tax etc were eliminated with GST.

Mark says:

12:11pm | 08/08/11

Just keep in mind that GOD will burn your soul for all eternity and that he/she/it doesnt give two hoots for the laws of mortals and that fearing your soul being burned for all eternity is actually a protected right under the UN charter that guarantee’s freedom of religious expression.
The big problem retailers face is that foreign websites are not required to employ people under the same conditions as Australia and this is why they are not competitive.

ibast says:

07:47am | 08/08/11

Shopping centres are designed for teenagers and women.  For grown men they are not only unpleasant, but obviously not the best place to shop.  There is little there for us and what is there is not good value.  I’m sure many women are aware of this too.  Just pointing out the target market is not adult men.

Shane says:

12:52pm | 08/08/11

@John - how’s your tin foil hat? Bit tight at the sides?
Calm the f**k down. Stop reading the herald-scum (or it’s local branch wherever you are) and check your facts - including using multiple sources - before nailing all the windows shut and crying about multiculturalism. Your type of hysterical overreaction really grinds my gears.

MarK says:

01:18pm | 08/08/11

Why Shane?

They are racially motivated riots. The guy shot was described carefully as a young father. A more accurate description would be a known black criminal that has kids.

Say what you like the riots and destruction were racially motivated and are a further symbol of the farce that is multiculturalism. It is conclavism let loose.

I really don’t know why you are so angry about it Shane. The facts speak for themselves as does the careful and gutless reporting that sanitised out the basic facts. Your type of apologism really gets up my goat…his name is Billy btw.

CiscoKid says:

08:03am | 08/08/11

Penbo while I’m on the soapbox ,one last comment,once upon a time retailers were family enterprises ,who cared about customers ,now they’re corporations with decision makers hiding in some back office making purely profit based decisions.

Tina says:

08:14am | 08/08/11

@ CiscoKid

And why should good service and knowledge not be a profit decision? It obviously would work for you. Of course the world is evolving. Not just retail. You could give a million examples. But as long as our needs dont change back again and we want 24 hr service and goods from around the globe at cheap prices that is the way it works. You cannot blame the world for responding to needs and demands.

CiscoKID says:

08:43am | 08/08/11

Tina   ,read my original blog ,think you have missed the point .

Roy says:

08:52am | 08/08/11

Cisco, you nailed it.
Extended trading was the start of the rot, they caused it themselves.

Kika says:

09:17am | 08/08/11

I absolutely agree Cisco. The service is the number 1 reason why I hate shopping in retail - particularly in the department stores. Doesn’t matter which one you go to - Myer or DJ’s - the old biddies are usually too busy gas bagging to bother looking to see if anyone needs help and then if they do they look at you like you aren’t good enough to shop in their store and why on earth did you interrupt their precious socialising time at work.

Then you get the other end of the spectrum where you get overbearing sales people who want to help you too much. Sometimes you need to think on your own. You don’t need someone telling you what they think you need.

Tina says:

10:02am | 08/08/11

@ Kika

I have always had great experience with the Myer’s sales staff. I think it is unreasonable to generalise it like that. And you can always smile and politely say you just want to browse. It sounds more like you are a dfficult customer.

John the Zombie says:

10:25am | 08/08/11

CISCOKid even though I agree that large retailers must accept part of the responsibility I do not think they should accept all. There are basically four major problems in regards to setting up business.

The first of these is with those who set up these business in the first place. Many go into the business with over expected predections thinking that in the first few years they will start to make large profits. Most business’s should not expect to have a good return but rather a lost in their first two years of trading and should go into business in the same way as buying a house and that is with at least 20% of the cost and running expenses available with out finance. That is the equity they bring to the business should be 20% of the overal financing costs. So if the owner estimates that with all costs for the year (labor, electricity, stock and rental) is $100,000 then ther owner shoudl have about 20,000 of their own equity.

The second is the cost of setting up a business. When opeining a business the fixture and fitting costs can be very high and in the cirrent market of cinstruction are over inflated pricing the captial required is very high. Just like the housing market setting up a business is a high cost event and in most cases a large loan is required in setting the business up.

Thirdly is labor costs. Cost of labor are high not just in weekend but also staff working after certain hours business are required to pay a higher labor cost then what they normally would. In most business’s this and rental costs are the main expenses that are incurred by a business. In most cases the return that the business recieves from it employees is not equal. A perfect example from my experience is when I headed into a JB Hi Fi store to purchase a laptop. The only people who I saw working hard were the ppl at the teller and the security guard at the door. As i looked at the laptops I looked around for help as I am not a very savy person when it comes to IT all I saw was the assistants chatting and talking to each other while other customers most likely like me out of their depth looked in puzzlement at the goods. It actually took me going up to an assistant, waiting till she finished talking to another assistant and to ask her for help. I ended up getting a laptop but my view was that the return on investment on the staff was not valid. In any business before it invests money into a project or business it alwyas does a return on asset calculation. This is to see how much the project will cost them and the return that will be bought back by this investment. Now if I was looking at the investment that I put into the staff in regards to training and wages I do not believe that for most the employees that JB Hi Fi was returning a good return.

Lastly rent. Rent cost are high in all business specially in retail sector. In many ways the rental costs I do believe are vastly over priced and that rental lease companies should look a reducing these costs to make business more viable. In many situations the lease companies make a large profit already by the rental they recieve from the big business’s.

When argueing about shopping hours and stating they are the reason that business are falling we should look at Singapore, Malaysia and other countries where trading goes from about 9am to about 12 - 2am every day. Have there business seen a drop (dont forget these countries also have large retailers) in sale numbers and a large amount of these business’s closing down, no they havent but they have done well.

Kika says:

10:46am | 08/08/11

No Tina, the overbearing sales people are elsewhere. As if you’d find them in Myer.

PTom says:

01:01pm | 08/08/11

Kika,

You should try walking down the streets in Phuket to see what overbearing sales people are like.

It goes something like no I don’t want a elephant, no I don’t what sandles no I don’t want a wallet no I don’t want water x 10, finally got to the beach 1 minute after leaving the hotel.

Womble says:

10:42am | 08/08/11

Yep - I work in the city 5 days a week so I have absolutely no desire to come back in to the city at the weekend to be able to get to the shops. The large shopping malls are my personal idea of hell so a trip to the dentist is more appealing on a saturday or sunday morning. They seem to be entirely constructed as playgrounds for teenagers and bogans. Is it any wonder people just shop online in exponentially increasing numbers, especially men. Having shops open late might actually help to alleviate the problems of the cities becoming a wasteland for drunks after dark.

John the Zombie says:

10:45am | 08/08/11

Tina been someone who has lived in Perth but visited Singaore, Malaysia and India I cant believe it to. Why do online companies do well, well it is because I can log on at any time including 10pm and order something and have it delivered. Why do business in the Asian countries do well, it is because I can go after work or after I get home have a tea and change and go out after 7pm and find a place to shop.

To those using owe its the weekend and we in western culture have come to have it off. No you havent as we still expect doctors, lawyers, nurses, fire men, police, soldiers, mechanics. petrol stations, road side assistants, retailers, plubbers, electricians, call centres, builders, sport players and many other workers to work these days so the arguement is wrong and incorrect.

Ben C says:

11:38am | 08/08/11

@ Tina and John the Zombie

It would be interesting to compare the industrial relations legislation between European and Asian countries with those of Australia - my thoughts are that the industrial relations legislation in Australia is too geared towards the employee, making it unfavourable for the employer. WorkChoices probably went too far the other way, which is why Labor, with their union backing, swept into power in 2007.

If not industrial relations, what would you attribute to the success of Asian/European retail businesses in operating extended hours?

steph says:

11:49am | 08/08/11

You are so right - I work in the Adelaide CBD and it used to drive me nuts that I couldn’t grab a few things while I was already in town. I would have to wait until Friday late night shopping or the weekend, when the last thing I wanted to do was venture back into the CBD just to get a pair of shoes or something.

Some genius in the Rundle Mall Management decided to open until 7pm weeknights, and it’s fabulous. The mall is even busier than during the day and many of the retailers are doing a roaring trade. Strangely half of the fashion stores still don’t open - why I can never understand as there is a mall full of people with money peering into windows to see if they can buy.

Drop in sales? Maybe open at 10am - 7pm instead of at 8:30 when there isn’t a soul around and you’ll see sales pick up big time.

John A Neve says:

11:57am | 08/08/11

Ben C,
At least half the population are “employees”, are you suggesting we all lower our sights?
If so, say so, don’t mince words, or do you just think every one but you is over paid and under worked?

Tina says:

12:03pm | 08/08/11

@ Ben C

People are often stating that longer hours are not needed/used because long Thursdays or so have failed. I am from Hamburg and we started out with a long Thursday but noone made use of it because you didnt know which shop participated and which didnt and we didnt like being forced to plan everything around Thursday. It is now part of our culture to meet in the city after work and shop around. Like everyone says, you dont want to go back on the weekends.

I know people are precious about working hours of sales personnel, but come on - who really stops working at 5 pm every day? Working to 7 pm wont kill anyone, most of us do it anyway - unpaid.

Ben C says:

01:06pm | 08/08/11

@ John A Neve

My sights have always been low - I’ve never believed that I should be paid for not being at work. If I’m taking a day off, I don’t get paid for that day. If I’m sick, I shouldn’t be paid for the time I’m away from work. Why? Because I’m not doing any work, I’m not being productive.

My gripe is that the current industrial relations legislation rewards people for taking time off; it rewards those that do the requisite hours, but do half the productive work of others working the same number of hours.

Maybe we should have an industrial relations system whereby everyone is working as a casual. Those that are willing to do the work will get paid for being there and doing the work, while those that don’t do the work will be given less time at work, meaning less pay. For those that don’t want to do the work, the employer just tells the employee that there isn’t enough work for them, and tell them they don’t have to report for work. I think that’s fair - rewards are commensurate to effort.

(By the way, I sit on both sides of the fence - employer and employee. Couple with that, as an accountant, I’m dealing with clients that are employers and employees.)

Tina says:

01:51pm | 08/08/11

@ Ben C

I work as a contractor and get paid for actual delivery of work. Its quite an incentive to get up in the mornings sometimes! I can understand it would be the fairest way. But whenever someone around me starts sneezing I always think “If you pass that on to me and I cant earn my money because I have to take time off…” It does not give you a very good sense of security and I am missing that. It sure makes the workplace more honest but it is quite harsh.

Pete the Parrot says:

08:49am | 08/08/11

To be fair you were in Lithgow. If you wanted some retail therapy they’ve always got KFC, Maccas or Red Rooster.

ibast says:

09:13am | 08/08/11

The local retailers probably whinge about the negative impact of the multi-nationals too.

Kika says:

11:55am | 08/08/11

This country is full of idiots… plain and simple.

PW says:

01:07pm | 08/08/11

The vast majority of people work monday to friday, during the daytime. Thus social events, family gatherings, weddings, sporting events, anything you care to name, all of this is organised outside the hours when most work. How many NRL games are played at 3pm on Wednesday afternoon? This means that those who do work outside these hours are disadvantaged, as they often cannot attend such things. This is why we have weekend and night penalties. In our current employment environment you would not be able to fill shiftwork jobs without shift penalties.

Kate says:

10:23am | 08/08/11

So true. I think the “let’s have shops open all the time!!” argument is spouted by those who have no idea what it’s actually like to work those hours.
I’ve worked Friday late night shifts, all day Saturday and Sunday shifts and believe me, it sucks. You never get to see your friends and family, you miss out on having a proper weekend and you can’t participate in social activities like the footy.

marley says:

10:54am | 08/08/11

Well, I dunno.  Back in the distant past, when I was at uni, I worked weekends and evenings quite happily - it was the only time I could work.  There are a lot of people out there looking for part-time jobs or second jobs, who’d jump at a chance to earn some money at odd hours - but employers, especially small businesses, aren’t mad keen to pay kids penalty rates for working 6 hours a week.

John the Zombie says:

01:56pm | 08/08/11

Kate you do relise that a large number of ppl work Friday, Saturday, Sunday and also public holidays. These ppl are doctors, nurses, fire fighter, pharmasist, bank workers, fast food places, call centres, certain shops, bank workers (sat), defence member, police, ambulance workers, road side assistance, petrol pumps and many other workers do this.

Also just look at banks. Some banks have started to open on Saturday and even though they are open half day, alot of the time they are quiet busy.

Kate says:

02:16pm | 08/08/11

@John, yes, I know that. I believe these people should be paid accordingly for what is often a big sacrifice in terms of their personal life when they are forced to work these shifts.
The difference between some of the jobs you have mentioned and the retail sector (excluding supermarkets) is that we need ambulance drivers, police officers, doctors, nurses etc. available 24/7 including public holidays. If you can’t go two or three days a year, or a Sunday arvo, without retail therapy then that is pretty sad.

AdamC says:

12:03pm | 08/08/11

Holly, I would echo your sentiments that perhaps the retail rout is being a tad exaggerated by some commentators. However, I am not so dismissive of the ludicrous Australian industrial relations system.

As it happens, I am currently contemplating opening a bit of a side business in the broader hospitality space. When I went to the Fair Work website to assist with some research about labour costs, I was blown away at the level of complexity. Despite the hype about award modernisation, there are still weird gaps and classification oddities which seriously affect the actual wage (for no apparent reason). There are also about 150 ‘modern’ awards.

I get that people were a little scared about some aspects of WorkChoices, but our current system is a nightmare. Of course, this is not the sole cause of the retail sector’s woes, but surely something needs to be done about our current, productivity-destroying framework?

Disclosure: I used to be on an AWA and preferred its terms and conditions to the enterprise agreement equivalent. Now, thanks to the ALP’s prehistoric IR mentality, everyone at my organisation is back on a ‘collective agreement’.

Albert says:

10:47am | 08/08/11

This is because most people dont give two hoots about immigration. I don’t and I have been through the process.

Tina says:

11:56am | 08/08/11

I agree with Albert. Aussies are obsessed with immigration, especially refugees. The amount of refugees you take on is quite frankly speaking a slap in the face for most other countries who have to take on the burdon because you dont do your part. http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1294102/at-a-glance-who-takes-the-most-ayslum-claims

jgm says:

12:12pm | 08/08/11

So I take it that you are happy with this dogs breakfast of a policy?

Michael says:

12:14pm | 08/08/11

The Punch is not allowed to critique the government, it’s hurts Julia’s polling and Mal can’t take it anymore. Leave Julia Alone!

Tina says:

12:38pm | 08/08/11

@ jgm

I am not happy with the policy at all. It is terrible that you go as far as to put peoples welfare at risk just to have a couple of refugees less. I wonder how it started that Aussies became so scared of refugees?

John the Zombie says:

02:07pm | 08/08/11

Please no politics on refugee boats or carbox tax. This can be later discussed when Farr has a whinge or two.

Ando says:

03:16pm | 08/08/11

JGM,
“So I take it that you are happy with this dogs breakfast of a policy? “

Are you Happy the retail sector is suffering?

jgm says:

03:44pm | 08/08/11

Ando, no, and no.

Lisa H. says:

06:30pm | 08/08/11

Geez, you seem to know an awful lot about running a multi-million dollar business. Why do you think retailers would mindlessly sack good staff? Don’t you think retailers are aware of the importance of the customer experience?

I see you don’t approve of people being able to shop when they like, though.
I guess a customer-centred focus only goes so far, hey?

I think you should open a shop yourself, you seem to be quite the expert.

Your dismissive ‘advice’ to struggling small retailers that they should just walk away speaks volumes about the true depth of your knowledge and understanding of the industry.

Steve says:

01:01pm | 08/08/11

Coles and woolies prefer national brands. Local food manafactures get more support from the smaller grocers.

How will you feel living in the most isolated capital in the world without a local food manafacturing base? Will you be happy with most of your manafactured food trucked from the East?

PTom says:

01:37pm | 08/08/11

Steve,

What will work choice bring?  Generally working a 38 hours week between 7am and 7pm Mon-Sat has no penalty rates. Has nothing to do with this.
Bunnings recently whinged they could not employee young people to work a minimum of 3 hours after 4:30pm weekdays, why because of the restricted trade hours nothing to do with work ers conditions.

So you would be happy to have a bunch of new 24/7 store open next to you. Because I can remeber the arguments by the NIMBY when a company tired to open the first 24/7 petrol station in a major country town, the council wanted but the NIMBYs did not. Re-zoning should not be about what business the council wants but just allocate area as business zone and let the business/consumer decide what they want.

You forgot electricity that is a big one, big corporates get really good deals.

I agree with you on the parallel import laws.

Population density is not the main issue when you find when banks, post offices and car mechanic close at 5pm and a the towns only stores do too.

Steve says:

01:54pm | 08/08/11

PT. A lot of people are lamenting that we don’t have shopping like they do overseas. ie Singappore, Hong Kong and the like.

What I am saying is that we can become like those countries in terms of shopping but we have to become like them. You can’t have a small population. high rents. high wages and open longer hours.

AFR says:

12:46pm | 08/08/11

You comments are that ridiculous (including trying to back up your arguments using that hack Schiff), its hard to know where to start.

Anna C says:

12:50pm | 08/08/11

“Minimum wage is the most regressive and destructive law on the books, it basically removes the right of unskilled, untrained workers the opportunity to learn on the job for a lower wage until such time as their productivity can justify higher wages.”

Richard even unskilled workers have to eat. I think the real problem here is that retailers have been profiteering at the expense of consumers for too long. Why are we still paying so much for goods and services in comparison to other countries even though the Australian dollars is high?

I think retailers should stop their whingeing and just suck it up. We, the consumers are sick of being their b*itches. We don’t owe them anything, least of all our loyalty.

Richard says:

01:22pm | 08/08/11

AFR, sounds like you disagree with me but don’t have any arguments that hold water to use against me. Either that out you’re chicken, “bu-KERK!”

AnnaC, the reason why Australian retail prices are so high compared to other countries us because our minimum wage is so high compared to other countries. Everyone when Borders and Angus & Roberts went bankrupt was like “well they deserved it because their prices weren’t competitive with Amazon’s”, but did they stop to realise that the Amazon employee packing that book is getting paid $7 per hour but the Borders employee must get $18 per hour?

HappyCynic says:

01:44pm | 08/08/11

Hilarious.

Let’s strip you entirely of your skills and see you live on the current minimum wage and we’ll see how fast you change your tune.  If given the opportunity a company would never allow you the opportunity to prove that you’re worth more, no matter how long you worked there.

And Schiff is a fraud.

AdamC says:

02:03pm | 08/08/11

I don’t know who Peter Schiff is, but I have yet to hear a convincing argument that minimum wages do not have solely regressive and destructive effects. Ultimately, the state either sets a rate that is too low, making it pointless, or sets it too high, creating unnecesary unemployment. I can’t see how any pro-minimum wage argument can overcome this simple reality.

Ben C says:

02:06pm | 08/08/11

@ Richard

I agree with your sentiments, but I don’t agree that the minimum wages should be removed. I’m a believer of reward for effort - see my post above re casual employment as a standard. For this, we need to maintain a level of minimum wage, so that there is a base to work from.

The problem is that in such a union-influenced nation as Australia, the lazy worker will be the real winner - they do the bare minimum, get the same wage as someone who puts in more effort, and is protected by legislation as the the onus is on the employer to prove the worker isn’t right for the job. Keep this up, and we’ll be breeding workers that will do less in ordinary time, build up their work so that they have to work back and claim overtime, for something that they could have done working at 80% productivity in ordinary time.

Anna C says:

02:08pm | 08/08/11

“AnnaC, the reason why Australian retail prices are so high compared to other countries us because our minimum wage is so high compared to other countries.”

Richard, yes I agree that historically prices have been high in Australia partly due to the minimum wage.  But why are prices still high now inspite of our high Aussie dollar? I would harner a guess that this is because retailers have been profiteering at our expense by refusing to pass on the full extent of savings brought about by the high Aussie dollar.

AFR says:

02:22pm | 08/08/11

Ahh…. Richard, the old “we can’t compete because of cheap foreign labour” argument. Did ACA tell you that one?

Low minimum wages are something that Americans in particular have ben fed by republicans for decades to justify keeping a sizeable underclass whilst the rich get richer, and where is the land of the free and home of the brave now? Screwed.

As for this great land, Richard, show me all these people who would be willing to work for less than award wage here….. there are none. Why? Because this is supposed to be a first world country, and we expect a minimum standard of living to represent that. Have you actually seen real poverty? Been to nations both in the first and developing world where employees are exploited?

As for me? Well, I earn an ok salary in the world of insolvency accounting, so yeah, I know a thing or three about corporate failure and what causes it. You want to know how know many are truly killed by high comparative domestic labour costs? 3/5 of stuff all.

I will never have to personally rely upon awards and minimum wages to get by, but I AM proud of workers, unions and goverments before me who have had the guts to stand up for the workers to make sure that everyone receives a fair days pay for a fair day’s work.

Roy says:

03:10pm | 08/08/11

Macey’s in New York sells Chinese made Jeans for $35
Australian store located in a suburban shopping mall sells the same jeans for $140+
and its all the teenage shop assistants fault?
Even if the higher AU wage adds $20 to the price of each pair sold, where is the rest of the money going?

Richard says:

03:14pm | 08/08/11

So Schiff is a “fraud” and a “hack” now?

In what way?

Does being one of only twelve economists in the world to predict the GFC make one a “hack” nowadays? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_financial_crisis Under the sub-heading “Role of economic forecasting”)

Does having the foresight TEN years ago to tell his clients to BUY and HOLD gold constitute being a fraud? (It subsequently increased in value from $250/oz to $1,650/oz)

NO. More likely, the powerful amount of plain common sense Schiff speaks irritates you leftists, which is why you try to discredit him. But his track record is unimpeachable: he has been right about absolutely everything, and this is all easily verified because we have primary evidence on the internet of him making all his calls before the events that subsequently unfolded vindicated him.

What you orthordox drones from the left fail to realise is that the Free Market will ALWAYS prevail. ALWAYS. No matter how much you try to impose your view of how the world “should” be, reality will always assert itself in the end.

The fall of retail in Australia is an example of this. Make no mistake, because of your narrow-minded chanting and wishful thinking about how the world should (and ignoring how it is), retail will DIE in this country. Do you think all those kids who only work in retail while they’re studying to become a professional anyway would prefer to still have a job but get a couple of bucks less an hour, or to have their job destroyed from underneath them and lose out entirely?

Its not like they are forced to work for free, everyone has free choice, and everyone is capable of bargaining a better deal for themselves, this is the natural way. I like the idea of lowering the retail minimum wage (and abolishing penalty rates) in exchange for the opportunity for retail employees to earn commissions on their sales, that is a really good idea to unleash the natural forces of free enterprise and laissez-faire capitalism loose in this otherwise ossified and stagnant sector of the economy.

If you think that we can retain our high minimum wage and still have our retail industry survive, you are wrong. This is the real world calling mate, make your choice, will it be ideology or reality?

HappyCynic says:

04:37pm | 08/08/11

@Richard

You know what business’s idea of negotiating a wage is?  Here’s your payslip.  Don’t like it?  There’s the door.  Without minimum wage protection individuals who are either too stupid or too desperate to know better will be screwed 100% of the time.  You’re living in a fairyland if you think that people act fairly or treat workers reasonably unless they’re forced to.

Also exactly what percentage of the cost of an item at retail level goes to wages?  Between 5 - 10%?  If it’s more than that then your business model sucks balls and you have much bigger problems than covering wages.  I think you’re just looking for an excuse to screw people out of a fair wage because you’re in a position to screw people.  With the shoe on the other foot you would never support such a decision and none of this has anything to do with banal terms like “lefty” or “righty”.

Richard says:

05:19pm | 08/08/11

That’s a complete turdbuger Happy Cynic, I was one of the poor unskilled workers who no one would give a go because the award wage too high to justify taking a risk on me. I was unemployed against my will for the best years of my youth and young manhood.

I had to struggle and live on the wrong side of the poverty line for years, desperately eeking out a few dollars on Youth Allowance to scrape through college, and even then after I graduated there were no regular full-time award wage PAYG jobs in my industry for me. The only ones on offer were commission-only, and a pittance of a commission at that.

But still, I slaved away for a pittance of a commission for years, with no job security, no casual rates, no sick leave, no holiday pay, no penalty rates, no loading, no nothing. I survived, and the skills I acquired by working for commission, taking home below mininimum wage for years, has allowed me now to open my own business, and make an independent living for myself, without having to rely on anyone else.

It is wrong for you to villify entrepreneurs, and to mischaracterise the situation as a “my way or the high way” kind of deal. Business do need employees, therefore employees do have bargaining power.

I guess the difference between “left” (you) and “right” (me) is that you assume most people are stupid and dumb and incapable and need to be mollycoddled, and you assume that the other guys are nasty and greedy and out to rip people off. In other words, you assume the worst in everybody.

I on the other hand, generally assume that people have good hearts, generally people want to help one another, and generally most people will seek win-win outcomes. I have faith in humanity, and I have faith in the intelligence of the common man. I assume the best in people. I’m an optimist, you are a cynical pessimist.

The fact is though, that businesses will do what they must to survive, and in the coming times ahead, my experience will become more and more typical. You’ll see:~ its already happening. All the regular, union-controlled, government mandated stable jobs are dissappearing. More and more people are forced into being “sub-contractors”, using their own ABN and having to fend for themselves just to earn a pay check. This is the way of the future, and it must be, because left-wing unionist hacks like you have made the requirements for keeping staff so onerous for businesses that they have no choice.

I say bring it on. Viva la Individuelle!! Down with the Tyranny of Collectivism! Huzzah for laissez-faire free market Randian objectivism! Death to Greens-leftist Bolshevist Oppression!!!

Roy says:

05:58pm | 08/08/11

Why no mention of the ridiculous rents charged by the owners of the Mega shopping centres out in the burbs, you expect the lowest paid worker to accept less but not a word about the other major cause.

Lisa H. says:

06:43pm | 08/08/11

Actually Happy Cynic, your whole argument rests on the assumption that ALL employees will exploit people by paying them far less than they are worth. As an employer, I can tell you this mindless mistrust of the employer is to some extent misplaced.
Many employers are very keen to retain great staff.

The great thing (for employers) under a more flexible system was that there was more competition for good staff. Under Howard, we felt pressured to constantly recognise and improve our renumeration of our best staff.
Now, we have less ability to do that, because even the less able are on about $25 an hour… and don’t forget the super!!!

Luckily, all our competitors are in the same boat… so wage rises and competition for staff has declined.

Now, we work increasingly to award because we are terrified of being tripped up on some little clause or missed extra!

In many ways, this means less recognition and reward of the best staff. And a lot of padding and protection for the troublemakers and non-committeds.

Less freedom for all, tbh.

AFR says:

12:53pm | 08/08/11

Zara sells men’s clothes?

Ben C says:

02:13pm | 08/08/11

@ AFR

I was about to ask the same question.

AFR says:

02:35pm | 08/08/11

Having said that, I did see a man wearing FM Boots in Pitt St Mall today.

Lisa H. says:

06:32pm | 08/08/11

I agree! These sound like fantastic shopping hours!

marley says:

08:15am | 09/08/11

Italy works along the lines of 9 to 1, then 4 to 8.  That gives everyone time for lunch, and time for evening shopping.  And a siesta in between.  Very civilized.