It’s not often a Government Minister admits to a fatal flaw in their policy, so I congratulate Jenny Macklin for her honesty.

Who else thinks he'd secretly love to play?

On Tuesday, while attacking clubs and the NRL because they are standing up to Labor’s mandatory pre-commitment policy, a policy that could destroy them, Ms Macklin revealed exactly why it will fail.

She wrote: “…before you sit down at the machine you nominate how much you’re willing to lose, set a limit you can afford – and then stick to it”.

“It’s not about the Government controlling peoples’ money – in fact, quite the opposite. You set the limit. You are in control…”

However that’s precisely the problem – problem gamblers are not in control. If they were in control they wouldn’t bet above their means, chase their losses and we wouldn’t be having this debate.

The reality is problem gamblers are out of control. That why’s they lie to family and friends to hide their habit, steal so they can keep playing and sadly some are so out of control they take their own lives.

If problem gamblers were in control they’d simply walk away from the pokies, however they can’t because their addiction has a terrible hold over them.

Giving problem gamblers a card where they can set their own ridiculously high limits is not going to solve this problem. It’s just going to give them a false sense of security and could cause more harm.

One of the country’s leading gambling experts raised this concern when giving evidence at the Parliament’s Joint Select Committee on Gambling Reform.

Dr Sally Gainsbury, a post doctoral research fellow at the Centre for Gambling Education and Research at the Southern Cross University, told the committee: “There is some evidence that pre-commitment levels will actually increase gambling for problem gamblers, who will set higher limits to give themselves a buffer zone and then end up actually spending more because they are changing their own mindsets of how much they have to spend.”

Problem gambling is a serious addiction and needs to be treated as such.

That’s why I found Jenny Macklin’s writing so offensive. It contemptuously writes off any opposition to Labor’s plan as being driven by ‘greed’, as being an example of an industry and a sport willing to feed off people’s addictions.

“So it doesn’t make sense to me that the same clubs that bring us together are arguing for a business model based on profiting from peoples’ misery,” she wrote.

Wrong, Minister. People oppose your policy because it simply will not work. And although well intentioned, not only will it not work, but it will kill off the clubs sector because it’s going to create a huge disincentive for the 4.8 million Aussies who don’t have a gambling problem and who like to play the pokies recreationally.

All Labor’s big brother policy will do is deter these recreational players who will shy away from handing over their personal details and signing up for a card. As they stop playing pubs and clubs will have to slash staff, their services and the funding they provide to local sporting clubs.

Meanwhile the out of control problem gamblers will continue along their path of self-destruction until the underlying problem that causes their addiction is treated.

This shouldn’t be about politics. Jenny Macklin needs to stop slandering people and the NRL simply because they’re smarter than she wants to give them credit for.

Many Labor MPs know their policy is a fraud and some have had the courage of their convictions to speak out against it. After meeting with Ms Macklin earlier this year, Queensland Deputy Premier and Labor MP Paul Lucas didn’t hold back.

“Imposing mandatory or even rapid voluntary pre-commitment on these clubs would send them broke and not do one thing about eliminating problem gambling,” he said.

The only reason Labor is pushing ahead with this problematic policy is because they did a dirty deal with Andrew Wilkie to form Government.

He now has a gun to their head and if they don’t implement his extreme scheme by next year he’ll pull the trigger on the Government.

86 comments

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    • TChong says:

      06:48am | 07/07/11

      The cynicism of the LNP is laughable.  Crocodile tears about club staff, at the same time gleefully advocating retrenching thousands of public sector jobs,- no consideration of families etc if you are paid by a govt.
      As for holding guns to heads - sounds like the BOF Upper House.
      There, that expression just may take on a whole new meaning , with the police worshipping Shooters Party and Fred holding the balance.
      (No suggestion from me about sublimated deires for uniforms, guns and power by the Shooters or Fred,)  just mere coincidence Police , alone , are exempt fromm new wage rules.
      No need to keep the police in your pocket , thru special deals,is there?

    • TimB says:

      07:53am | 07/07/11

      So Chongy you think we should continue paying for public staff that aren’t necessary?

      Just take a look at Greece as to what happens if you continue down that path.

    • dovif says:

      08:04am | 07/07/11

      TDoh

      Did you even read the article, the Labor members of parliament is also upset at Gillard for selling out Australians, so that she can justify backstabbing Rudd to get to be PM.

      She had to do a dirty deal with minor interest groups to get to be PM.

      As for public servants in NSW, which is totally off topic. Morris Iemma went to the Public Servant union in 2009 to try to reduce the size and the cost of the public service. The PSU said no, so the ALP backed down. The problems were always there, Labor just could not do the right thing for the people of NSW, so we can afford the NW rail line, hospitals, schools etc

      “Many Labor MPs know their policy is a fraud and some have had the courage of their convictions to speak out against it. After meeting with Ms Macklin earlier this year, Queensland Deputy Premier and Labor MP Paul Lucas didn’t hold back.”

    • acotrel says:

      08:23am | 07/07/11

      At the next election, I’ll be looking for independents who favour the ALP.  They will get my vote!  Wilkie is the only politician who has taken a stand on the pokie cancer in our society!  The actions of the three independents in parliament prove that if you live in the bush, it’s idiotic to vote for any of the big parties.  Independents deliver for regional electorates!

    • TChong says:

      08:23am | 07/07/11

      Read the article dovif.
      Doesnt mitigate the LNP mantra of public service redundancies, with no regard to consequences.
      If concern for club staff jobs and families is legit ( i agree it is),  then why not equal concern for families etc of public service employees?

    • dovif says:

      09:02am | 07/07/11

      TChong

      You lack of understanding is showing again. Both the ALP and Liberals knows NSW had too many public servant, which means the ALP could not build the NW rail line (another lie) or supply hospital with supplies, or afford to fix up schools and hospital. This is because too many people in the public service does not actually have jobs. This is costing taxpayers millions and leading to poor morales of the workforce and increasing public debt and increasing the skill shortage in Australia

      This is completely different to the Clubs industry. As expert said “this policy might actually increase problem gambling, as people will set a higher limit, and have a false sense of security that they can bet more.

      As Queensland Deputy Premier and Labor MP Paul Lucas didn’t hold back. “Imposing mandatory or even rapid voluntary pre-commitment on these clubs would send them broke and not do one thing about eliminating problem gambling,” he said.

      This is a case of a PM trying to protect her own ass, by selling out Australia to special interest group and costing Australian jobs, and stopping fundings to junior sport.

      There are a bi-partisan support against the legislation, both ALP and Liberals are against the legislation, which only benefits Gillard

    • acotrel says:

      09:04am | 07/07/11

      @T Chong.  This week it’s public servant bashing, last week the asylum seekers got it, before that it was the aborigines, before that it was the unions!  It’s the way the LNP operates - all about divisiveness! They always ask the question - are they one of us? If you are on the outer, you are stuffed!

    • TimB says:

      09:09am | 07/07/11

      Chongy, there’s a difference between killing jobs inadvertently due to side effects of policy, and deliberately cutting deadweight public servants sucking at the taxpayers teat.

      As for you Acotrel….

      “The actions of the three independents in parliament prove that if you live in the bush, it’s idiotic to vote for any of the big parties.  Independents deliver for regional electorates! “

      Bullshit Acotrel . Go and ask the people in New England or Lyne if they think that Windsor and Oakeshott have delivered for them. Bet you the answer is a resounding NO.

      The independents have betrayed the electorates they’re supposed to represent. If there’s one certainty about the next election it’s that these two jokers won’t be re-elected.

    • jf says:

      09:25am | 07/07/11

      Yeah, yeah TChong, if the crocodile tears are comding from anyone it is the ALP who are dressing up a superficial and cynical attempt at populist politics as compassion and caring.

      Rather than name calling perhaps you would like to tell us why you think that Dr Sally Gainsbury is wrong when she states thatthere “is some evidence that pre-commitment levels will actually increase gambling for problem gamblers, who will set higher limits to give themselves a buffer zone and then end up actually spending more because they are changing their own mindsets of how much they have to spend.”

      If this is in fact true, this plan will do nothing to protect problem gamblers, and may cause more harm than good, whilst at the same time making it more difficult for overwhelming majority of gamblers that don’t have a problem from spending their money however they choose.

      This policy, in one foul swoop, would appear to (i) at best do nothing to help problem gamblers (ii) restrict personal freedoms.

      Perhaps there is evidene that Dr Gainsbury is wrong or that there is an alternative point of view based on evidence or at least an informed hypothesis. If so, it would be worth hearing.

    • acotrel says:

      09:38am | 07/07/11

      @TimB
      ‘Bullshit Acotrel . Go and ask the people in New England or Lyne if they think that Windsor and Oakeshott have delivered for them. Bet you the answer is a resounding NO.’

      Again, with the speculation?  It will be great when one third of parliament is comprised of independents, and we don’t have a bunch of morons blindly following some dill like Abbott!

    • gangusk says:

      09:40am | 07/07/11

      TChong

      There are 2 completely separate issues, you are talking about.

      One group does not have job, and is being subsidise by the government, as they do not have jobs, they are not learning. Expert had stated that this is actually bad for them, bad for their self worth and self esteme. This is also preventing them from going to another industry like mining, where they might help the Australian economy grow and earn a living

      The other group have jobs, but because of government policy, which experts had said won’t work, they might loses their jobs

      There is a big difference between the 2

    • Fiona says:

      10:27am | 07/07/11

      Gangusk, you site mining as an example of gainful employment. I see a couple of problems with that.
      1. Where will someone who is an office worker fit in to that? There will be only so many jobs for admin staff in the mining industry.
      2. Location.I know a lot of jobs are fly in fly out, since the companies won’t build up the infrastructure to let their employees live locally anymore, but the majority of Australians live in a Capitol city.
      Those are just a couple of points. I’m sure I’ll be howled down, but mining is by it’s nature destructive and largely foreign owned. Surely you could’ve thought of w better example than mining, or is that alll we’ve got left now?

    • TimB says:

      10:34am | 07/07/11

      Not speculation at all Acotrel. The facts are there to be seen in every story coming out of those two electorates. You’re just too willingly blind to see it.

      Case in point, Windsor’s latest antics over the whole live cattle export debacle:

      http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/windsor-cattle-vote-bitter-pill-for-katter/story-e6frfku0-1226078785974

      Was Windsor delivering for his electorate then? Hell no. He’s just another ALP lackey now., blindly supoorting government stupidity.

      And if you *really* think that the independents are on the rise, think again. Thanks to the self-serving bullshit dished up by Oakeshott Windsor & Wilkie, the independent ‘brand’ if you will has been completely trashed. Katter is the only one who’se come through this mess with a shred of dignity.
      You might not have been paying attention to the recent NSW election, but the number of independents went from 6 down to 3. The people just don’t trust them anymore.

    • gangusk says:

      11:12am | 07/07/11

      Fiona

      Not at all, there are a lot of jobs in the mining industry, some are at mines, which a fit 25 yo male can easily do, then there are jobs for logistics, there are jobs on the ports, ie to freight to material to our ports and to sell them to china, then there are also jobs for people operating shops, diners etc in those flying in fly out towns

      As for the fly in fly outs, they are paid 6 digits to do it, so people are happy to work 2 weeks straigh then take a week off

      And it does not have to be mining, these people can open cafes, work on construction, or apply to work for the NBN, plenty of jobs when an unemployment rate is low

    • stevem says:

      11:21am | 07/07/11

      acotrel 09:38am | 07/07/11
      The proof of your defence of the independents will come at the next election. If you are correct the independents will be returned with increased margins. if you are wrong, they will be consigned to electoral oblivion.
      All polls currently point to the latter.

    • Nafe says:

      11:34am | 07/07/11

      Settly Down Chongy,. Tony Abbott;s Polict of cutting public sector jobs will occur due to natural attricion (people will leave and the government just won’t replace them.

      NSW is a bit different because the public service have too many feeding from a very small tough, something has to give, either increase taxes and levies, or cut the dead weight, Personally you must cut the dead weight and get more productive to survive.

      I guess Labor have a different philosophy

    • Steve says:

      12:53pm | 07/07/11

      TChong. Trimming wastage in the public service is a good thing. loss of jobs in the private sector is a bad thing.

      For every dollar paid to a public servant they would return about 25c in personal tax. therefore it takes the tax of about 3 workers in the private sector on a similar salary to pay for that 1 public servant. It is therefore essential that we get value for money from our public servants. The public service should not be an employer of last resort for people who can’t get a job outside the public service. If you believe that the trimming of the public service will throw up people who the private sector wont touch then good riddance I say.

    • d says:

      07:24am | 07/07/11

      “However that’s precisely the problem – problem gamblers are not in control. If they were in control they wouldn’t bet above their means, chase their losses and we wouldn’t be having this debate.”

      So you defeat the purpose of your own article stating that the problem gamblers try to chase there losses which they wont be able to do…

      I personally think the low input machine’s is the better way to go where people are limited by not $100 a spin but 5c-10c a spin.

      It is all good and well to pick apart the policy but i always thought the job of opposition was to show why something was not right with a policy and amend it with changes to make it better.

      So how about instead of saying NO it wont work so lets drop it, say ok this idea is good there is a problem and government regulation can fix it but i think this is the wrong approach and X might be a more fitting solution.

      But then it does seem the only job of a politician in this day and age is to get re-elected.

    • dovif says:

      08:28am | 07/07/11

      d sais
      So you defeat the purpose of your own article stating that the problem gamblers try to chase there losses which they wont be able to do…

      Did you even read the article, this is what the QLD ALP deputy premier said “Imposing mandatory or even rapid voluntary pre-commitment on these clubs would send them broke and not do one thing about eliminating problem gambling,” he said.

      The only reason Labor is pushing ahead with this problematic policy is because they did a dirty deal with Andrew Wilkie to form Government.

      As an expect of the industry said, problem gamblers will just set a higher limit, and that might actually means they loses more money, or they will just have multiple cards

      This legislation will do nothing except prevent the weekend gamblers, or the old people who does not have the technology understanding for paying the pokies.

      This will hurt clubs, hurt jobs, hurt jnr leagues/soccer, just so Gillard can sell Australia out to minority interest groups

    • stevem says:

      11:06am | 07/07/11

      Wilkie demanded pre-commitment cards in order to support Labor. He didn’t and won’t allow any deviation from his grand scheme. Labor is sticking to its side of the deal, not caring about the effectiveness of the problem. It doesn’t need to.
      For one zealot to be allowed to push a flawed scheme that will cost billions to implement (new machines all round) is a travesty of democracy. Unfortunately that is the proudly trumpeted “new paradigm” in which we live.

    • BobM says:

      02:33pm | 07/07/11

      Juliar is just stringing Wilkie along with her promise of doing ‘something’ by 2014 (when she won’t be around anyway). She needs his support to keep her job at the moment, but when she suddenly decides to quit, he will be left high and dry. Pooncy little man.

    • Dave says:

      07:29am | 07/07/11

      What is a BOF? Anyone know, cos chong never explained it. And what does it have to do with the Senate? And who is Fred? Hey, Tchong - your post is impossible to understand!

    • little annie says:

      07:34am | 07/07/11

      T Chong! talk about a ramble, would you like some cheese with that whine! amazed

    • Peter says:

      07:51am | 07/07/11

      As you rightly point out, Steven, this piece of flawed legislation will do nothing to stop problem gamblers.
      It is merely appearing to do something to appease the overinflated ego of Andrew Wilkie and have his continued support.
      The problem gambler will simply set an unrealistically high upper limit on his or her pre-commitment and be worse off in the long run.
      What then? Will the government step in and set the limit?
      This is another example of a dictatorial government.

    • SimonTigey says:

      04:25pm | 07/07/11

      It’s not just the flaw that’s been exposed here, many problem gamblers will just turn to online gambling. Which I would think will have even worse odds of winning because there is virtually no accountability.  Therefore there is a chance they can blow even more money a lot quicker!!!!!!!

    • thatmosis says:

      07:52am | 07/07/11

      A job in the Public Service should be based on performance and from what Ive seen and discovered half the people should be sacked. Gone are the days when a Public service job meant a job for life whether you worked or not, its time that those that work keep their jobsand those that dont are culled as there are people out in the streets who would covert a job, any job whilst these wasters are living off the public purse.

    • n_dude says:

      04:25pm | 07/07/11

      What about front line staff like nurses, doctors, social workers, teachers? Aren’t they all public servants? Should we sack them as well? Or are you referring to the those in the administration side like Centrelink, the ATO. I don’t think it is right to tar all public servants with the same “useless” brush.

    • Economist says:

      07:54am | 07/07/11

      Well I totally disagree with Dr Gainsbury assessment which you’ve pinned your entire argument on. Sure initially you may set higher limits, but there comes a time when a gambler recognises their addiction, it’s at these times that they may reduce their limit and depending on how it;s implemented .increases may be more difficult..  Based on your assessment your saying gamblers are psychopaths. How do I understand the psychology more than you because I’ve been personally affected by it via a family member.

      In addition, personally players will rarely substitute for other forms of gambling. How many women do you see at the TAB compared to a poker club? Bugger all, because women are more likely to be addicted to poker machines only. Poker machine venues are more freely available. Poker machines more than any other form of gambling .are geared for you to lose your money, faster with higher spin rates. Take a look at the productivity report comparing the lose rates.

      I see pre-commitment as a first step. I’d prefer, maximum levels of a 50c or a dollar, slower spin rate and quite frankly less venues. The fact is Australians spend either the highest or second highest on gambling, primarily due to poker machines. And your article simply shows me how ignorant you are, no sorry how evil you are when you won’t even do anything about it. Go suck eggs Steven.

    • LOL says:

      08:36am | 07/07/11

      Economist said there comes a time when a gambler recognises their addiction

      LOL, first you think you know more then an expert, then you think problem gambler will recognise their addiction.

      If they recognise their addiction, they would not be problem gamblers, and would not have lost thousands or dollars already

    • AdamC says:

      09:21am | 07/07/11

      LOL, you and Economist are both wrong. Yes, problem gamblers maybe be self-aware enough to realise they have a problem, but it doesn’t follow that they will then cease to do their level best to undermine these restrictions. To my mind, the best way to reduce the harm pokies allegedly cause would be to re-jig the machine to reduce losses. I presume this is what Economist’s idea of slower spins and lower maximum bets would be intended to do.

      Not that I advocate that. This is just another manifestation of nanny statism and the only way to prevent nanny creep is to oppose it on principle in all its manifestations.

    • Willie Mac says:

      09:36am | 07/07/11

      @LOL

      I take it you’ve never been addicted to anything before. Many addicts want to quit, but once they’ve started, they just can’t stop. This policy helps those who want to help themselves. If you don’t like it, what’s your solution?

    • LOL says:

      10:06am | 07/07/11

      Willie Mac said

      Many addicts want to quit, but once they’ve started, they just can’t stop.

      Rubbish, if they want to quit, they would not go to clubs in the first place, this legislation does not help them quit, it tell them it is ok to go to the clubs, as long as you bet below your limit.

      Gambling is a choice, it give people a rush, just like speeding, smoking, alcohol, clubbing, drugs, playing computer games, being on chat line etc

      When is the nanny state going to end, are we going to start legislating against someone drinking more then 2 glass of wine at dinner soon?

    • dovif says:

      10:12am | 07/07/11

      Willie Mac

      This is not going to stop problem gambling, this is more like telling a smoker that if you smoke 1/2 a pack a day, it is ok

      Adam C

      The aim of the gambler is to win lots of money, if you slow down the machine, they will just play more then 1 machine, or stay longer, or do something else like going to the races, casino etc

    • Tim says:

      10:31am | 07/07/11

      Economist,
      wouldn’t it be far better to introduce more schemes to target problem gamblers rather than this nanny state initiative?
      Problem gamblers are in the extreme minority so we should be aiming to help them rather than punish everyone else.

    • Economist says:

      10:59am | 07/07/11

      @LOL, @Dovif, can you read. The statement was SOME EVIDENCE that pre-commitment levels will actually increase gambling. It’s cherry picking by Steven. If he’s generally concerned, where’s the Liberal party policy. What’s wrong with trialing, what’s wrong with looking at other measures to deal with the problem along with pre-commitment.

      Here’s the PC report http://www.pc.gov.au/projects/inquiry/gambling-2009/report. Note the explosion in problem gambling because of Electronic gaming machines. Not that clubs are not net employers. Have you been to a club? The fact is the machines themselves require few staff to manage. They’re moving to automation. Note that the report states community benefits are exaggerated with benefits mainly to members and club directors. On the flipside the report highlights a net benefit through higher taxes, but surely there are better ways to collect taxes then praying on the vulnerable and miserable.

      @LOL you don’t understand the psychology of it because you haven’t been through it. It’s not two groups - problem gamblers vs non-problem gamblers, it’s a sliding scale. Note I’m not for banning the machines just curbing their ability to destroy lives. Take note @AdamC it’s not about a nanny state, what you want pokies on every street corner?

      I’m quite happy to be non-rational and vindictive on this issue. So despite the fact that I don’t believe in God, I pray that you @LOL and @Dovif and for Steven to have a child, grandchild, parent or sibling with a gaming machine problem. I wish you all the misery when you counsel them through their suicide attempts. Not until you experience the problem will you sympathise with it. I’ll then have a laugh at your expense.

    • LOL says:

      11:25am | 07/07/11

      Economist

      You have not actually addressed the main issue

      ie how this legislation will actually stop people playing those machine. Quite simply the legislation is telling them it is ok to gamble, so long as you do so within a limit

      Yes, the machines are entertaining, and that is why people play them, it is a form of entertainment. It is like arguing paying $100 to see a show is bad, or going to the footy for $50 is bad.

      As for club members ... they are also the gamblers, who gets cheaper food.

      I noted you left out sponsorship too

      I am happy for my kids to make their life choice for himself, and if they makes a mistake, I am happy for them to learn from it, and will support them during this period

      Did you hear that drinking more then 1 glass of alcohol a night can increase the risk of cancer, I cannot wait for the Gillard government to ban drinking

    • dovif says:

      11:30am | 07/07/11

      Economist

      Laughing about people commiting suicide show us what a low life you are, hope you rort in hell

    • Economist says:

      12:12pm | 07/07/11

      @Dovif, learn to read mate. I’ve been through it. It was @LOL laughing at my expense. Why did I include you? Because you advocate for doing nothing about it. Yep your right I love laughing at suicide, get a grip.

      @Lol as for sponsorship, that’s included in my sentence on community benefits being exaggerated. Take a look at the report. Its very fair and balanced on the issue. Look at it holistically and measure up what is a reasonable response. The fact is its not going to stop all addicts, but understand that gaming machine addiction is different, some evidence suggests that gaming addicts don’t substitute to other forms of gambling, but some do. As for pre-commitments success, lets trial it. The fact is it’s not just about curbing current problem gamblers, but preventing future gaming machine problem gamblers.

    • AdamC says:

      12:17pm | 07/07/11

      Economist, yes it is about the nanny state and no, I don’t want pokies on every street corner. At least you have acknowledged that your attitude to poker machines is irrational. Incidentally, your points about availability being the primary evil of pokies is accurate.

    • Tom says:

      12:46pm | 07/07/11

      Dovif, get over yourself. Economist went over the top in his choice of words as the temperature rose. Now both of you kiss and make up.

    • Economist says:

      02:18pm | 07/07/11

      Thanks @Tom, yes you are right of course, I was being deliberately provocative. @Lol and @Dovif, I apologise profusely. I’ll thanks the Punch editors for letting it through, another one of my rants, God they must get sick of me. I was in two minds when typing it. I chose the wrong course. I wouldn’t wish it on anybody.

      @AdamC, reading your comment made me realise that it is ‘irrational’ not ‘non’rational’, that’s non-good english. We can agree to disagree, and I always enjoy our little exchanges.

      Yep, I fracked up.

    • Ted says:

      08:17am | 07/07/11

      Hell of a stretch trying to link the right sizing of an over inflated, Labor generated, pen pushing parasitic civil service to anything. But what else do we expect from a paid Labor blogger like TChong. This is also an incredible line to take given the mass destruction of jobs Labor is about to inflict on its union members with their sham carbon dioxide tax. Any analysis of other countries that have take (weaker versions) of this path has shown that there industries are badly damaged with negligible real green jobs created.

    • graham says:

      06:31pm | 07/07/11

      What a silly rant from a silly man. Check the reality and then come back, you poorly paid Abboteer. What ‘infliction’ on union members? Your last sentence, ???), shows what a dill you are. Show us the “analysis of other countries” and the badly written follow.  “They have take (weaker versions) of this path, etc,. etc., . Wanker. I dare you to reply, intelligently.

    • Fiddler says:

      08:41am | 07/07/11

      Ten years ago “The Wilkies” were well known in the Canberra scene looking for any political party they could jump onto. Funny how Andrew was initially conservative, however when he realised he could become a champion of the left fell on his sword and now here he is. Do not trust a word he says. Having said that I agree something has to be done about the pokies. Try limiting them in pubs. Yes their profits will drop and some will close, but maybe they will bring back more live entertainment. Currently most pubs make 80% of their profits from pokies

    • melle says:

      08:58pm | 07/07/11

      @Fiddler,  Agree completely.  Andrew Wilkie is not a person I would trust.

    • Darren says:

      08:51am | 07/07/11

      I am very disappointed with this article - this Liberal lackey had the opportunity to use the phrase ‘disincentivise’ but failed!

    • meh says:

      08:58am | 07/07/11

      Crown casino in Melb has had voluntary precommitment levels for about a decade and it hasn’t done them any harm. They have even been sued by problem gamblers because they didn’t enforce their own regulations.

      It is hard to take an opposition pollie arguring for free-for-all seriously while claiming to be trying to help people. If there is a drop in pokie revenue from casual punters, is that a bad thing to anyone but the clubs?

    • RED says:

      10:38am | 07/07/11

      Voluntary is completely different to mandatory.

    • Tim says:

      09:01am | 07/07/11

      Wilkie is only forcing the government to follow the recommendations of the productivity commission report.
      Just reduce the maximum bet to $1, slow the machines and reduce the maximum payout. If that sends a club broke, then that club never deserved to be in business.

    • Ron White says:

      09:02am | 07/07/11

      Why not make the pokies only be able to take 10 cent pieces. The pokie companies have the technology already . It would pratically limited the amount that could be bet.

    • Mark says:

      09:08am | 07/07/11

      So pre-commitment will force clubs not to rely on gambling. A good idea, can we have more please.

    • Jay says:

      09:18am | 07/07/11

      Typical socialist manifesto; telling people what to do and think. Problem gamblers account for 2-3% of gamblers.So let’s destroy another industry because of a small minority that can then go off and bet on the horses or the footy or any other sport. Just remember that pokies brings in a lot of taxes.The same taxes that the socialists piss up against the wall. Pink batts, and the cattle export backdown come to mind immediately.

    • Freeman says:

      09:27am | 07/07/11

      Too bad, steven.

      the clubs are squealing coz it will destroy their revenue base which is based on fleecing its members. you can put $50 in a $1 machine and it’s gone within 2 minutes playing the minimum bet. That’s not $50 worth of entertainment, that’s theft. I agree that the ALP could introduce much better pokie reform but this is a start. What reform is the LNP proposing in opposition? of the 4.8 million players who supposedly don’t have a problem, how many do infact gamble too much but don’t admit it?

      I hope the pokie laws and plain packaging of cigarettes goes through before the ALP gets booted out.

    • Bob says:

      10:46am | 07/07/11

      Hi Freeman - you are absolutely correct - this is only about money. Yes the Clubs are screaming as they will lose - but the problem will not be fixed. The only way to overcome gambling, nicotone, alcohol or any substance addition is by abstaining - easier said than done I know. Gamblers have a limit now - ie that which is in their wallet / bank account -what will stop them making this limit on the card. If that does not work they will go online. If the Govt imposes a maximum - I don’t think so imagine the outcry. I ask would the ALP be entertaining Wilkie if he didn’t have a gun to its head? Don’t get me wrong I believe the world would be a better place if we could save some people from themselves - it is just that I fail to see how this will achieve it.

    • Harquebus says:

      09:35am | 07/07/11

      No, he has two hands. One is stuck to his penis.

    • Wilma J Craig says:

      11:26am | 07/07/11

      The head of it if he can find it!
      One way to reduce the use of Pokies is to restrict the “Hours of Play”. Why does Legislation require/state/demand that venues must remain open from 6.00am through to 3,4 or 5 am the next day?
      Why not simply cut the hours to, say, 10.00am to 10,00pm daily?
      12 hours-a-day is ample for anyone. If Casinos don’t like it, tough titty!
      The problem is not the 2-3% of problem gamblers - they are irrelevant in the broader picture.
      The Real Problem is the 100% of State & Territory Governments which are addicted to the hundreds of millions they collect in Taxes.
      They all bleat about the (tiny) number of problem gamblers just as they do about the cost to the community as a result of people smoking. Smokers, these pathetic, hypocritical Governments, including the Federal one, scream on a daily basis are costing the country billions & billions & billions of dollars in medical.The hospitals, they all screech, are flooded with people with lung cancer, emphysema & other fatal respiratory diseases.
      The answer to that is staring them in the face!
      Ban the growing of tobacco. Ban the manufacture of all tobacco products. Ban the importation of all tobacco products.
      Of course they won’t do any such thing!
      Just as they are all addicted to the taxes they raise from the Pokies, They are all & without excepotion 100% addicted to the taxes,excise,licence fees etc. they raise from the sale of this product.

    • michael j says:

      10:14am | 07/07/11

      The only solution is to ban pokies so the problem goes ungergound into the hands of crims , them the police can catch them and the crims will be given long jail sentence’s and the problems solved ,,

    • Randy says:

      11:45am | 07/07/11

      WA has always banned pokies.  We have the lowest % of problem gamblers in Australia.  There are no ‘underground’ pokies, run by criminals.  That’s just stupid.

    • michael j says:

      01:09pm | 07/07/11

      @Randy QLD used to have a lot of things called in-line machines similar
      thing , run by crims and feed by gamblers, and 1 day a jorno ask a copper a stupid question,that lead to an inquiry and police arrested police n pollies
      n lots went to jail , even the police commissionaire who was a ‘‘Knight’’ at the time,,,so now we have pokies n hardly any corruption of police or pollies heh heh
      pity not many gov minsters up ere know the difference between their arse n their mouth,,,so its not really stupid in the big scheme of things ,,wait till sunday then you will hear some stupid statements,,,,,,,,

    • Rose says:

      10:26am | 07/07/11

      So on the one hand you are saying that pre-commitment won’t reduce the amount wasted by gamblers, and may in fact increase their losses as they set ridiculously high limits. But on the other hand you are saying the reduced revenue may send clubs broke. MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!

    • dovif says:

      02:44pm | 07/07/11

      Rose

      Sorry if it had not been explained to you earlier, this legislation is aimed at problem gambler, but it won’t help them.

      However the weekend gambler or the elderly will be affected.

      For example after a few, or 10 drinks, or after dinner, a person might decide to spend $20 on the pokies, once a month. This person is not a problem gambler, but the legislation will require them to get a gambling card, then register how much they can lose, force them to carry this around, end result is they will say bugger this, I won’t waste my time.

      Then there is the pensioner, who does not understand what is going on, who might think they are being scam of money, or won’t know how to use and set up the card.

      Then there is the cost of setting all of this up on every single machine in Australia.

      The manufacturer of the machine will make a $ billion

    • BobL says:

      10:30am | 07/07/11

      I get very frustrated by all the attempts to save problems gamblers, when every time you turn on the teli, or radio or see a newspaper, the message is buy, buy, buy. consume consume consume, bet bet bet, How is the average Joe supposed to avoid this brainwashing. I bet that if the government tried to put controls on the addictive general advertising, it wouldn’t even get to first base.

    • Tchom says:

      10:37am | 07/07/11

      I don’t think you quite grasp the psychology of a problem gambler. They don’t sit down and say ‘I’m going to spend an enormous amount of money,’ they’ll sit down thinking they are going to spend a reasonable amount, but when that runs out, they’ll go get more, thinking they’ll have just one more game, then another, then another… I don’t know if this proposal is the best solution, but its kind of lame that clubs are so dependant on gambling as a source of revenue.

    • Huey says:

      10:39am | 07/07/11

      Correct..Wilkie’s Law.no problem except it won’t help problem gamblers.

    • Observer says:

      10:43am | 07/07/11

      The legislators are behind the curve on this one. The Market will always prevail when it comes to separating people from their money. Watching the NRL State of Origin last night I wondered how long it will be until punters give up the traditional pokies and simply revert to an online nirvana. Ironically the NBN will facilitate the transition. If you have a credit card, high speed internet and a hand held device such as an IPad, you can literally play the numbers in bed.

    • Robert s McCormick says:

      11:00am | 07/07/11

      Andrew Wilkie’s silly threats are just that: Silly. This non-representative of the Majority of Australians has repeatedly threatended to bring down the Gillard ALP Government if it does not pass his ridiculous legislation. That does not mean this appalling, shilly-shallying, indecisive Gillard Government should not be tossed out. That is Our decision Not Wilkie’s!
      Maybe it is time that Wilkie got it into his head that Australia is, if a flawed one, a Democracy. It is Not a Dictatorship as Wilkie seems to think. It is not up to him nor is it up to the ALP as to whether or not his Standover Legislation gets passed. It is up to the Federal Parliament. If this self-styled “I’m your Nanny all you Australians & you WILL do as I say"has his legislation defeated in the House of Representatives simply because the Majority of the MPs vote against it then so be it.
      Nanny Wilkie seems to have forgotten that though the two major parties may have equal numbers there is just 1 Green, 3 Independents & Nanny Wilkie in the House. The Green MP & Nanny Wilkie will vote for the legislation but there is no guarantee that the 3 Independents will so the chances are that his Nanny Legislation will fail there. What will Nanny do then? Throw a tantrum & send Gillard to the Naughty Corner?
      Nanny does not hold the Balance of Power. If he did manage to bring down the government that would not necessarily mean the Coalition would take over & they, out of revenge for his failure to be what he was elected to be, an Independent, would simply wipe the floor with him.
      In the event, as she would be entitled to do, Gillard went to her pal the Governor General & requested the issuing of the writs for a Federal Election the chances are that the voters of Denison,Tas would throw him out - as he so richly deserves.

    • stevem says:

      01:54pm | 07/07/11

      Wilkie should never have been elected in the first place. He only got 21% of the vote - behind both Lib and Lab. The Greens preferences pushed him above the Libs, then the Libs preferences pushed him above Labor.
      His electorate will never vote him back.

    • Seanr says:

      11:53am | 07/07/11

      I for one applaud Mr Wilkie and the Labor party for their drive to penalise the many for the sins of a few. As with the internet filter, lack of R ratings for video games, more government intervention into my decisions, will help to give me less to worry about.

      Just as in the case of the ban on live beef exports, this legislation shows a well thought out and considered approach to the issue, which has delved deeply into all the consequences.

      Whilst the naysayers will surely sprout that, like the proposed carbon tax this legislation will have little impact on the overall problem, it does make me feel better just to do something. Also to have a brave government who is prepared to take a stand on issues without thought to petty political considerations.

      Now Elphaba, how do you do the ‘sarcasm’ emoticon?

    • AdamC says:

      12:13pm | 07/07/11

      Seanr, excellent points. As I was reading it, I was reminded of that Simspons Halloween epsiode in which Ned Flanders becomes the undisputed ruler of earth and lobotomises everyone. I get the impression many politicians would like to do that. (Lobotomise everyone, I mean.) Especially Wayne Swan - he could finally find someone who knows less about economics than he does!

      Pokies are such an easy target for nanny state advocates to attack. That is why taking a stand on principle is so important.

    • Lily says:

      11:54am | 07/07/11

      I’ve been giving this a lot of thought lately because I just left my husband due to his problem gambling. While he knows he has a problem and that it has cost him tens of thousands of dollars, this is an addictive behaviour he can’t get control of and wont seek help for.

      Seeing the damage that he has done to himself and our family is just awful but at the end of the day I dont see how this new policy is going to work. Some of you might say that gamblers are stupid but they are smart enough to know how to work a system. They lie all the time, to themselves, to their families and say they are in control. My husband never intends to go out and blow a lot of money in one hit. I’ve seen it in our bank records. He will go to a pub and get on the drink with mates and then proceed to withdraw $200, then $500, then another $500, then another $200 over the next couple of hours.

      People in favour of the policy will say that under the new scheme he would set his limit at $200 but I know him, he wont. All he will do is set the limit at $1200 because in his head that’s what he can cope with losing - even though he knows he cant afford it and it will send him in a spiral where he continues to try to recoup his losses.

      I’m obviously all for providing help to problem gamblers and making sure we dont put anything in place that increases the amount of problem gamblers we have in our community but this policy isnt the way to do it.

    • Craig says:

      12:48pm | 07/07/11

      Steve Ciobo: defending the ‘rights’ of cashed up sports clubs to fleece the rent money off of desperate pensioners and gambling addicts.  You sir, are a grub.

    • jasperjen says:

      01:11pm | 07/07/11

      I enjoy my flutter and as I have to drive over 100k to play the pokies it only happens about once a month so as opposed to a daily machine player I have to set a monthly limit. I lose too much but it my self I hurt I don’t have a morgage or family who go without, unless you count their inheritence.But I can assure you that I will be setting my limit at least 5 times higher than I can afford and the more the government tries to tell me what I can do the more determined I am to thumb my nose at them. As for limiting daily withdrawls from the ATM in the Club no worries I will just walf the 100 yards to the 3 Bank ATM’s ajacent to the Club. Absolutely short sighted aim to curb gambling. All it will achieve is a gigantic cost to the Clubs in spending on the tecnology to ajust these machines and will have no effect on problem gamblers just drive away patrons who will refuse to give the clubs their details to get their licence to gamble.

    • Lesley Laurel says:

      01:44pm | 07/07/11

      If Andrew Wilkie is the one armed bandit, then is Tony Abbott the Fugitive?Or just The Littliest Hobo?

    • Felcher says:

      02:16pm | 07/07/11

      So Badger is now Lesley Laurel

    • Glenn says:

      02:49pm | 07/07/11

      Why not just impose a GAMBLING TAX but only on the top 500 GAMBLERS - and give compensation to the clubs and ARL. Just like the alcopops tax and the carbon tax - PROBLEM SOLVED. WHY has no one thought of this - why must it always be us cynical ones who have all the brilliant ideas!!!

    • Martin Hopes says:

      03:07pm | 07/07/11

      I wasn’t sure if Wilkie was on a winner here until James Packer got involved…I then knew that Wilkie was heading in the right direction!

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      03:12pm | 07/07/11

      I watched the 4 Corners program and have an answer for the wretched machines.

      Melt them down and turn them into saucepans.

      The greedy club owners ripping off their own members and chortling made me sick.

      If people want to support a good club they will without losing all their money on a greed monster.

      Ciobo, you are a clown.

    • Carl Palmer says:

      04:00pm | 07/07/11

      The “British Gambling Prevalence Survey 2007”, found that approximately 0.6% of the adult population had problem gambling issues, the same percentage as in 1999.

      In 2004-05, 13% of people aged 18 years and over in major cities of Australia had risky/high risk levels of alcohol consumption, compared to 15% in inner regional Australia and 16% in outer regional Australia/other areas. (ABS)

      Assuming the UK is similar to Aust, I would have thought alcohol was a bigger issue to the community than pokies.

    • Lesley Laurel says:

      04:04pm | 07/07/11

      Make Andrew Wilkie Prime Minister of Australia now.
      Andrew Wilkie reads the political climatic weather with a moral compass.
      Allan Wilkie reads the climatic weather with a compass.

    • Chris_D says:

      04:55pm | 07/07/11

      Finally, a good article with some common sense on an emotional matter. 

      For real perspective, just substitute the word “gambling” with “alcohol” or “drug” and ask yourself if you think this legislation will help those with a gambling dependancy/addiction.

    • Seano says:

      05:38pm | 07/07/11

      I can’t see this measure having anywhere near the impact the clubs are claiming.

      But then I can’t see it stopping problem gambling either. Anyone who knows or has known a serious gambler knows that they never get their act together until they choose to, often after hitting rock bottom.

      So your problem gamblers will set the limit ridiculously high and the majority of gamblers who are sensible will have one more nanny state inconvience placed on their past time.

      You can’t legislate against stupidity, you can only minimise the impact.

    • jf says:

      06:29pm | 07/07/11

      Agreed Seano.

      So mate, who do you reckon is worse? This government or the NSW RL team.

    • Seano says:

      07:57pm | 07/07/11

      To be fair jf I’d rank them starting with the worst first: Federal Opposition, NSW Opposition (despise Robertson), NSW RL (talk about a false dawn) and then the Federal government.

      None of them particularly good.

    • graham says:

      08:35pm | 07/07/11

      jf.. The govt in some unseeing eyes might be thought to be bad, but NSW RL ? No comparison. Gillard will prove in the long run to be right. NSW RL?
      Nup. They just don’t have the belief necessary. Gillard does. Go with the strength.

    • John the Zombie says:

      08:38pm | 07/07/11

      I like the idea of limting what ppl can loose at the pokies and I agree with Andrew Wilkie that something should be done but I do not agree with this policy .

      If they were srs about stoping ppl from becoming in debt to the pokies then the best way forward is for the card to have a limit set on it. Lets say $100.00 that all. The way its should work is the person is given thier card with a $100 weekly limit. The person goes an plays the pokies and lets say wins $500. So now the card has $600 on it.  Lets say they continue to play and loose the $600.00. Thats it, they cant gamble till the following week when the card resets and the person can add another $100 to it creating a set limit.

      The second point is why is this reform not been put towards other gambling such as the troots, horse racing and sports. I am quiet sure ppl loose alot of money through these endevours as well. All I can see happening is ppl taking up different forms of gambling or putting massive limits on the card.

    • dmmaseoseoseo says:

      02:14pm | 13/12/11

      I introduced myself to cigs while I was 14 years old. It ended up the most unfortunate wrong move Ive made. Right now Im older and I have lung cancer. While attempting to give up smoking cigarettes, I heard about the smokeless cigarettes and will give it a try. With some luck, it will eventually help me with this particular awful habit.

 

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