With Julia Gillard’s carbon price finally locked in, several questions in national politics can be pared back to one suggesting Tony Abbot’s enviably straight run toward the 2013 election might require a tack or two.

Cartoon: Peter Nicholson.

So what is this “big question”?

It centres on the single most important difference around which Tony Abbott has constructed his strategy and it goes something like this: will the carbon price lose its current locomotive power in Australian politics and come to resemble a Medicare-slash-GST phenomena, or will it remain where it is now, more akin to say, the toxicity of WorkChoices?

That is, will it outrun the extreme divisions it has engendered to eventually attract the broad if grudging support of both parties? Or on the other hand, will it continue to fester, functionally inseparable from the perceived “lie” and the rallying point for the throngs of should-be Labor voters whom the Abbott bandwagon has swept up.

The answer to this question holds the key to Julia Gillard’s fate as Prime Minister, and indeed whether Tony Abbott will ever get there.

Ms Gillard’s game-plan has always been founded on the former trajectory. She has made no secret of her determination to have this parliament run its full three year term and some - leaving the election timing unambiguously as late as constitutionally practical: to wit, the second half of 2013.

Her logic is rudimentary. It holds that the carbon price will cause nothing like the economy-shattering world-ending disruption to peoples’ lives that Mr Abbott has led them to believe. Thus, once they’ve enjoyed the tax cuts and pension increases, which for battlers will more than offset any higher power bills they incur, they will lose their anger, and realise it was the fear-mongering that was radical, not the advent of a carbon trading market.

Much of Ms Gillard’s confidence is predicated on Treasury modelling which predicts household electricity prices will jump by a tiny amount (0.9 per cent) as a result of generators being charged for pumping out carbon dioxide. There will be other costs too as the carbon price is handed on down, but the net effect on the economy according to the best modelling is going to be extremely minor.

Assuming this is how it pans out - and there are some big assumptions here to be sure - the election when held, will have come nearly two years after the legislation was passed and comfortably more than a year after the household compensation package began flowing, bearing in mind that it starts a couple of months before the carbon price operates.

Committed conservatives and Gillard-haters will obviously maintain their rage but they were never in her camp anyway. They will continue to hammer the so-called carbon tax lie and will attempt to keep others outraged too.

But whipping up fear of something coming is easier than maintaining fear of something already here and being lived with. Again, think of the GST. Kevin Rudd once branded the day of its introduction as fundamental injustice day. Who’d unpick it now?

Besides, if all the people who claim they were swayed by Ms Gillard’s no-carbon-tax pledge before the election had actually been swayed, as their heartfelt betrayal suggests, she probably would have won with a majority in her own right.

Of course, on the evidence now, the WorkChoices parallel is a better one than Medicare or the GST. Electricity bills have been soaring over the last 24 months or so - 48 per cent in SA for example - and voter anger over this is genuine and widespread.

The Opposition’s claim that now is not the right time to add to the misery will find its mark in voterland, what with households cash-strapped and job security declining. Fear trumps hope as they say in politics.

Even more important though is that prices are predicted to continue rising so if Mr A can link your worsening bills to Ms Gillard’s tax, he’s on a likely winner even if it is not strictly true.

That strategy is not risk-free, though. Blood oaths to rescind and oppose certainly attract attention but not all of it is good. By keeping it simple and negative, it plays into the Dr No narrative Labor has been steadily building.

As we approach the half way mark of this term of office, there is an almost palpable sense of the wind shifting. Tony Abbott and his muscular band of new conservatives would do well to pick it and perhaps change tack.

197 comments

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    • Super D says:

      05:24am | 11/11/11

      In the forthcoming election campaign the government will subject us to the mother of all fear campaigns regarding the repeal of the carbon tax. 

      This is of course the moral equivalent of a date rapist telling his victim that the experience wasn’t that bad and she certainly shouldn’t put herself through the trauma of an abortion.

      It might work.  The ALP might get away with it.  Alternatively they might spend a decade locked in opposition.

    • Jason says:

      08:33am | 11/11/11

      That is a disgraceful analogy.  I don’t care how opposed you are to the carbon tax, you should be ashamed.

      Could this post please be deleted?

    • Michael says:

      08:45am | 11/11/11

      Jason poor petal, the analogy is good, no one was actually raped. Save your guilt tripping for yourself if you can’t have an adult conversation about sensitive subject matter.

      I ask that the post remains.

    • Andee says:

      09:20am | 11/11/11

      Jason sweets is a Labor apologist from the BigPond news site . Yeah , poor petal .

    • nossy says:

      09:26am | 11/11/11

      @Jason   everyone should be entitled to their say Jason.

    • AdamC says:

      09:29am | 11/11/11

      Jason, Super D uses strong language, but isn’t unreasonable. Especially as JuLiar and Bob Brown deliberately tried to structure the legislation to make it difficult to repeal.

    • john says:

      09:35am | 11/11/11

      @Jason is it a truthful analogy? IMHO yes it is, Super D has nothing to be ashamed of. The Punch isn’t womens weekly, or noidea with fluffy posts. The Punch is very raw,  sometimes abrasive with the truth and not for the faint hearted, welcome to real democratic free speech.
      Post should remain,  doesn’t even contain any course language. At the punch even the c**t word has been discussed, that boat has sailed as well. Not sure what your so offended about.

    • Rick of the Dustbowl says:

      09:37am | 11/11/11

      I agree what sort of idiot uses rape in any argument.

    • RyaN says:

      09:44am | 11/11/11

      @Comrade Jason: The analogy is perfect, Gillard is raping the Australian public through deception just the same as a despicable date rapist does.

    • Rose says:

      10:08am | 11/11/11

      I don’t care how strongly you oppose the government or the carbon tax,  likening it to rape is disgusting. There is no moral equivalent to rape and to suggest that there is shows you’re incapable of using reasonable arguments to make your point..

    • emel says:

      10:16am | 11/11/11

      Great article Mark.
      Abbott has shown is unsuitability for leadership already by committing to reverse the carbon tax, mining tax and now he is locked into a political strategy that makes no fiscal sense at all.
      Gillard and co have made many a blunder but as you suggest 2013 is a long way off. The shoes are on the other feet now. Gillard will pull her head in and watch the Libs fracture due to the phenomenal hole in their own budget.
      Tony Abbott and his mates (Super D, Charles, ATM, Allan Jones etc) will fester for many months yet.

    • SydSteve says:

      11:24am | 11/11/11

      Wow Super D,
      Introducing unpopular legislation is the same as rape?

      I’d hate to be one of your children when you’re laying down the law.

    • Michael says:

      11:33am | 11/11/11

      To those on the moral high ground, if someone was to use the analogy that miners or farmers were raping the land for profits would you still be so outraged?

      I can expect to see you object to that argument from here on in then as failure to do so would be hypocritical wouldn’t it?
      QQ

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      11:46am | 11/11/11

      Super D’s comment should not be removed!. Jason should learn to read & then read the full comment. My, my isn’t he the most precious little bundle of sensitivity?. No matter whether Julia & her master, Bob Brown like it or not the Vast Majority (do you know what those two words mean,Jason?) of the people don’t want this Carbon Tax. They did not vote for it. They did not give Gillard a mandate to introduce it.
      Maybe Jason & his ALP/Green mates can tell us why we are being hit with the biggest CO2 tax anywhere? Why when even the ALP & Greens, in a rare expression of honesty, admit that though on an individual basis we produce more CO@ than any other countr. On a Global basis - Global being the operative for we are continually being told we must judge everything on a global basis by Jooooliar, the ALP & her masters the Greens Australia produces only a tiny proportion of Global Emissions, some respected reports have state that the figure is well below One Half of One Per cent.
      If Jason can anwer that question he will be doing more that Gillard has ever attempted to do. She simply ignores questions she doesn’t like or finds too hard to give an intelligent answer to.
      Jason will be delighted that, not content with the damage they have already done & the wholesale destruction of what we know as our Democracy the Greens are already demanding, it has been reported in the media & not just Murdoch’s, thta even more of their stupid, economy-destroying, otrageous be implemented by Julia Gillard & we all know that she is totally in thrall to the Greens. Her very Prime Ministership, appalling as it is, depends on Greens support. Without it we might probably have a decent PM such as Martin Ferguson. At least he has the guts to tell the Greens where to go.

    • Dave says:

      12:01pm | 11/11/11

      Err, Michael, you may have missed this but Super D didnt use the analogy of “raping the land”. He used the analogy of raping a person - specifically date rape. Are you too stupid to figure that out, or are you just too stupid to figure out the very important difference?

    • Michael says:

      12:15pm | 11/11/11

      I didn’t miss anything Dave, make an argument that refutes my own.

      Try reading what i asked, then, because you are my intellectual superior answer the question.

      The analogy is about getting fucked and told to be happy about it because it isn’t that bad, from the point of view of the person that is fucking you.

      Did i miss anything?

    • fml says:

      12:32pm | 11/11/11

      It is in pretty poor taste.

      To even suggest it is the moral equivalent is diabolical.

      I would prefer to pay $8 a week rather than be “raped”

    • gobsmack says:

      12:51pm | 11/11/11

      That it wasn’t a well chosen analogy is proven by the fact that most of this thread has centred around the choice of the analogy rather than the point SuperD was trying to convey.

    • Jason says:

      01:02pm | 11/11/11

      Super D, Michael, et al

      There is absolutely no moral equivalent. 

      A politician broke an election pledge.

      Rape is one of the most vicious and violent things that can be done by one person to another.  Throw in some comments on the moral and ethical issues of abortion (particularly where rape occured) just for an added kick.

      By saying these are morally equivalent, you are saying the latter isn’t nearly as bad as it is.

      I’m not precious - I expected there would be at least a few people who would gleefully take the opportunity to troll, slag off and defend the indefensible.  I don’t really care what these people say, because by doing so they demonstrate they are completely morally bankrupt.  So congratulations on your new status as confirmed scumbags.

      Cheers

    • RyaN says:

      01:14pm | 11/11/11

      @Comrade Michael: Only if they said they weren’t going to mine then went ahead and mined the hell out of the place without asking.

    • Michael says:

      02:09pm | 11/11/11

      Exactly RyaN.

      Gobsmack, alternatively the thread has been about people’s inability to mentally get past the term “rape” or “date rapists” and see that the analogy is about whether or not someone that is forcing you to do something against your will is in a position to tell you “it’s not so bad” and “it could be worse”.

    • Dave says:

      02:36pm | 11/11/11

      Michael, okay, Im going to have to spell it out for you: “raping the land” is an old phrase which means overexploiting resources, usually in a greedy fashion. Its an old phrase thats reasonably common and not offensive. Being told youre raping the land may be mildly upsetting to any thin skinned person but its a socially acceptable phrase. Raping a person is a crime, and as these things go, a particularly detestable one.  In case you havent notices, its right up there alongside murder and always has been. Date rape is, if its possible, worse. So saying that a perfectly legitimate political act is like a date rape is equating something legal and ok with something very legal, very detestable, and very not okay. Its like me saying that your posts are the equivalent to raping your dog. That offend you? cos it would offend most normal people. Same goes here. Boisterous debate is all fine and dandy but theres a limit beyond which you shouldnt go. Carbon tax rally attendees may not understand those limits but even Tony Abbott, belatedly, recognised that the rest of the community has some standards. That date rape comment oversteps the mark. Simple. And by the way, I apologise for the dog rape comment.  Its there just to demonstrate my point.

    • Yuri says:

      02:42pm | 11/11/11

      It probably could have been worded better, but it is an apt analogy (perhaps not moral equivalent though).

      At the 2007 election (romantic dinner) everyone agreed that there would be an ETS/carbon tax (relations). Then on the way to the guys place (2010 election) both parties agree that there will be no longer be any relations (ETS/carbon tax) that night (election term), with the guy emphatically declaring “there will be no relations under my roof”. Then when they reach the guys residence, the guy proceeds to screw the chick (voting public), while she continually says “No, stop, I don’t want this”. Afterwards, the guy blames it on the inconsequential minor party (his penis) who he says forced him to do it.

    • Eric The Red says:

      02:45pm | 11/11/11

      Holy Shit thats twice today I’ve agreed with Super D, Some of you people need to harden up. He has an opinion as all of us do. I didn’t read in his comment how he’d like to rape or that raping someone is good is was just to embellish his comment. Geez people get over yourselves you poor barstards. PS; and I’m for the Carbon Trading Scheme and it may well come back to bite me? But we will see.

    • Michael says:

      02:54pm | 11/11/11

      No apology needed Dave, thanks though smile

      I see the point you are making, i just don’t agree. I consider myself normal but you suggesting i rape my dog isn’t offensive to me, it’s funny because it’s silly and untrue, my dog wants me badly and is a willing participant raspberry

      When it is all said and done; from my point of view the analogy is fine, i wouldn’t have used it myself because i know some people have a hard time getting past their initial emotional reaction to certain topics, rape being one of them, the carbon tax another smile.

      I will just agree to disagree with those who found the analogy offensive. Enjoy your weekend smile

    • Richard says:

      02:54pm | 11/11/11

      It was an awesome analogy, and very accurate, and its just so telling that brainwashing socialist left-wing imbeciles would rather try to shut down the debate and censure the point rather than face up to the true facts and admit that Super D’s right.

    • gobsmack says:

      03:07pm | 11/11/11

      The problem with any analogy is that you can only take it so far. 
      In Super D’s analogy, the unwanted thing is the baby, in Yuri’s analogy, the unwanted thing is the sex itself. 
      Where Super D’s analogy breaks down is that not all sex results in a pregnancy and most rapists don’t commit their crime with the intention of impregnating their victim. 
      Where Yuri’s analogy breaks down is that the unwanted sex is a temporal thing that stops after a while.
      It would be easier to simply debate the issue at hand rather than in engaging in rhetorical nonsense.

    • You're Dreaming! says:

      03:28pm | 11/11/11

      fml, please get back to us in two years time and tell us if the carbon tax only costs you $8 week.

    • nihonin says:

      03:57pm | 11/11/11

      Just like the last election Julia will bullshit to the Australian voters, to hold on to the Prime Ministership after the next election.

    • Super D says:

      04:30pm | 11/11/11

      Well nice to see that the moderators aren’t as censorious as some of my fellow punchers.

      To further explain my analogy - or our petrol on the fire let me start by saying that the analogy is entirely appropriate to how I and many others feel. 

      Note that I used “date rape” rather than rape -this was a very specific choice of words- with regard to date rape it is often the case that trust is breached.  It’s not a brutal violent act by a stranger, rather a coercive one by someone you thought you could trust.  The ALP took carbon pricing off the agenda.  Their choice.  They could have fought for it and would have lost.  That’s what happens in a democracy.  They chose to avoid the fight and do it anyway without consent.  They promised we’d just talk.  We ended up getting screwed.

      The second part of the analogy is even more important.  Having not sought our consent and screwed us how dare the ALP and their supporters have the audacity to highlight the adverse consequences of undoing what they have done.  The cheek of it is just absolutely outrageous.  A victim doesn’t need to hear the views of their assailant.  It might be painful to undo the carbon tax but we didn’t choose it and if its tough to get out of then that’s the fault of the government. 

      passage of the carbon tax leaves me and those who believe in integrity in democracy feeling violated.

    • Jason says:

      06:04pm | 11/11/11

      You just keep digging that hole Super D. 

      You are basically suggesting some sort of moral equivalence between some rape that is brutal and violent, and others which are coercive.  Date rape IS a brutal and violent act.  All rape is a brutal and violent act.

      You are so enamoured with the cleverness of you analogy that you can’t see that it is fundamentally offensive.  It will hurt anyone who has been raped.  Your explanation will encourage others to see different forms of rape as less bad.

      While I disagree with many (though believe me not all) of the views being put on Punch about the carbon tax, I’ve rarely commented or felt the need to comment on what I’m sure are sincerely held views.  However, there is absolutely no need to resort to the sort of stuff that will genuinely hurt victims of rape and diminish the severity of this crime. 

      As the post has been kept up, you’ve successfully managed to do your bit to keep these things going. In future, feel free to use a whole range of offensive and/or clever analogies, but please not this one.

      If you feel any remorse at all, think about an apology.  Not to me, but to anyone who has read this and been date raped.

    • Chris L says:

      06:27pm | 11/11/11

      Although I disagree with Super D’s point of view I find myself distracted by the precious response. Of course rape is bad and if Super D stated that it was otherwise I would understand the reaction. He didn’t, he used emotive language to emphasise his viewpoint and ensure people paid attention. It worked. Get over it. No censorship!

      PS I repeat, I disagree with the point being made. The campaign against workchoices was supposed to be the mother of all fear campaigns. That means this will be the sibling of all fear campaigns. (to be honest I think the campaign against the carbon tax could easily be described in similar terms but I don’t think any point is made by making such a melodramatic claim.)

    • gobsmack says:

      06:28pm | 11/11/11

      @Super D
      Tony Abbott has form disowning a child born out of wedlock, so you should be right.

    • acotrel says:

      05:20am | 12/11/11

      @nossy
      ‘@Jason   everyone should be entitled to their say Jason’

      In this case good manners dictate otherwise !

    • acotrel says:

      05:24am | 12/11/11

      Perhaps we need some other sort of version of Godwin’s Law to control SuperD’s down comments ?

    • onlooker says:

      08:50am | 12/11/11

      Rape is such an ugly thing and a very ugly word, I don’t think I would use that word unless someone was actually raped. Things may have changed but in my day, it was a tad to late too have an abortion after the child was born!! Perhaps it could be put out for adoption. If they are locked in opposition, then I can imagine the worm will turn and their a lot of no’s. Revenge is sweet when it is eaten cold.

    • Chris L says:

      02:03am | 13/11/11

      @acotrel, onlooker and gobsmack… facepalm!!!

      Seriously, I lean more left than right, but I don’t get the point you’re arguing. Let’s try to be a bit more coherent, yes?

      PS. if you had a valid point and I failed to get it, please enlighten me and I shall be all the wiser for it.

    • B says:

      07:59am | 13/11/11

      @Rose

      Actually there is a worse moral equivalent.  This is called torture.  Don’t sit there and tell me that RAPE is worse than torture.  Rape can be used as a TYPE of torture, but there are MUCH more demoralising and horrifying torture techniques.

    • Erick says:

      08:17am | 13/11/11

      @gobsmack - “Tony Abbott has form disowning a child born out of wedlock”

      That is the exact opposite of the truth. When a woman claimed that her son was Tony Abbott’s child, Mr Abbott did the right thing and acknowledged the possibility of the relationship. He men the (now) man.

      A paternity test later proved that the man wasn’t related to Tony Abbott at all.

      You are pretty much pushing a blatant lie here.

    • RyaN says:

      03:12pm | 13/11/11

      @Erick: comrade gobsmack is just doing what Labor does, lie lie lie and hope some of it works.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:06am | 11/11/11

      Mark, it isn’t just the carbon tax. People know she f@#ked up health care and the refugee crisis and BER and home insulation debacle and the is now famous ‘High FIve for F@#king Over Australia’ smile

      The current majority anger isn’t going away, the ALP knows that….............why is Rudd in the spotlight for a take over? That doesn’t sound like a fake PM doing a good job.

      Gillard is too dumb to realise people will blame everything on the carbon tax whether it is connected to it or not. But than again she is a lawyer that doesn’t understand UN/Australian refugee law….........

    • Chris_D says:

      07:46am | 11/11/11

      @ATM, I agree, there is so much more than just the carbon tax that has made the public so bitter about Labor.  Personally I think Abbott is a fool making “blood” promises when there is no need, but there is no doubt Labor will suffer for the knifing of Rudd, the constant lies and broken promises, and the arrogance of a Government that ignores the collective/majority voice of the people.

    • I hate pies says:

      08:35am | 11/11/11

      If this government gets re-elected I’m moving to another country, because that will be absolute confirmation that this country is full of greedy idiots that only think of their back pocket. How many f*ck ups, and how much incompetence can one country take? This will have been going for on for 6 years by the next election - if the people don’t get it by then I’m off. 3 more years of this will spell the end of this once great country. It will turn into a lawless, selfish rabble.

    • mick says:

      08:42am | 11/11/11

      Fair go Against the Man.  You sound like one of the Abbott clones who live on this site.

      To take your points, Health was dead long before Gillard got to the top job and the Labor government stepped in to try and fix the mess the states had created.  The insulation scheme was a dog’s breakfast.  It was introduced to try and keep Australia working during the worst days of the GFC.  Had we had the same results as the US you would have been screaming that Rudd was not doing anything.  The scheme was just poorly administered, nothing else.

      How about we all look at the (many) faults of the opposition attack dog Tony Abbott instead of acting like clones and attacking whilst ignoring the facts that at the very least Australia got through the GFC in tact.  This appears of no interest to those with vested interests.

    • james says:

      09:19am | 11/11/11

      Tony A’s people’s revolt means we are already living in a lawless state.

    • TimB says:

      09:27am | 11/11/11

      “Fair go Against the Man.  You sound like one of the Abbott clones who live on this site.”

      That’s ok, you sound like one of the ALP drones who live here too. We forgive you.

      “To take your points, Health was dead long before Gillard got to the top job and the Labor government stepped in to try and fix the mess the states had created”

      Labor run states for the most part, just thought I’d point that out.

      “The insulation scheme was a dog’s breakfast….. The scheme was just poorly administered, nothing else.”

      Oh is that all. Just a poorly administered scheme by the government. Who gives a damn, right? What were we thinking expecting the government to manage a scheme effectively? Damn us and our high expectations.

      “How about we all look at the (many) faults of the opposition attack dog Tony Abbott instead of acting like clones and attacking ....”

      No. Abbott isn’t in government. Scrutinise him all you like come election time. Meanwhile, we’re going to hold the people who are actually in charge accountable for their myriad mistakes. How about you stop being an ALP drone and stop bursting into tears when the Government is (quite rightly) criticised.

      “whilst ignoring the facts that at the very least Australia got through the GFC in tact.  This appears of no interest to those with vested interests. “

      Yes we did. In no small part thanks to the surplus left by the previous government. Whatever actions the ALP took to stave off the GFC here, they could have been accomplished with far less effort and money than was actually spent. That’s my problem.

    • nossy says:

      09:35am | 11/11/11

      @Against the Man   wow you have the smileys and the foul language going all at once ATM - at your eloquoent best fella!  hhahah

    • Cookie Monster says:

      09:50am | 11/11/11

      mick | “The insulation scheme was a dog’s breakfast.  It was introduced to try and keep Australia working during the worst days of the GFC.  Had we had the same results as the US you would have been screaming that Rudd was not doing anything.  The scheme was just poorly administered, nothing else.”

      Are you saying that a badly-run insulation scheme that installed imported pink-batts saved a whole country from the worst days of the GFC and stopped the economy from declining to the US level?

    • RyaN says:

      10:03am | 11/11/11

      @comrade mick: Fair go comrade mick.  You sound like one of the Gillard clones who live on this site.

      How about we look at the many faults of the government of the day, yes that lying, incompetent government, yes the ones that actually have an impact on our lives and that impact has been nothing but negative since they came to power.
      How about you stop ignoring the facts on the GFC comrade, how about you just accept that John Howard left Labor a whopping fat bank account and the reason for that was the same reason that got us through the GFC, mining! There is no credit due to anyone other than mining for steering us safely through the GFC.

      The fact that this incompetent government still cannot produce a surplus even though they are taking some of the largest tax receipts in the history of this county is the reality that seems to escape you Labor people.

    • I hate pies says:

      10:28am | 11/11/11

      Mick - “the scheme was just poorly administered” - cold comfort for the families of the people who died because of that scheme. I’m sure they can’t just flippantly dismiss the scheme as easily as you.

    • LeftRightOut® says:

      11:12am | 11/11/11

      I’m glad someone, pretty early on, pointed out that the carbon tax “lie”, is only a small part of why this “government” will be turfed out the next time people get to have a vote.
      There’ll be another balls up any day now… how’s that refugee count coming along?
      Weren’t these clowns telling us, not very long ago, that these people don’t react to domestic policy? The same people now blaming the conservatives for affecting domestic policy, and trying to blame them for boat arrivals?

      Fair dinkum, these Labor apologists really don’t “get it”.

    • LeftRightOut® says:

      11:19am | 11/11/11

      Mick, the reason we got through the GFC (mark 1) intact (not “in - tact” /end pedant)  was thanks to the Howard government for one… and thanks to a Labor government for two… it just wasn’t the Rudd/Gillard Labor government, it was the Hawke/Keating one…
      Anyone who thinks that excercise in pork barrelling, dressed up as Keynesian stimulus was effective, is an economic neophyte… plenty of those around, so you’re not in bad company.

      I don’t expect the average punter to understand this, but I reckon you could be edumicated wink [sic]

    • Blind Freddy says:

      12:28pm | 11/11/11

      @James

      Abbott’s people sure are revolting.

    • Bruce says:

      01:01pm | 11/11/11

      ATM: Barry O’Farrel has just anounced that he will be asking the electricity companies to itemise our electricity bills so that we can see just how much impact there is from the carbon tax. A good move, keeps me informed where my money is being spent. I would like to see all itemes affected by the carbon tax on all my bills. If the tax is good for us, then its good enough for us to know the impact on all our bills.

    • Unionist says:

      02:56pm | 11/11/11

      I hate pies says:11:28am | 11/11/11 “Mick - “the scheme was just poorly administered” - cold comfort for the families of the people who died because of that scheme. I’m sure they can’t just flippantly dismiss the scheme as easily as you.”

      This is where the argument gets pathetic from the snotty nosed Liberal side of loser-dom. Firstly it wasn’t the pink bats scheme that killed anyone. If you were an installer who followed proper procedure then you have nothing to worry about. If you as an employer cut corners in process and application or failed to provide proper (as under the respective State legislation) training of your workers the you have failed as a company and has been done be brought before the courts. To say it was the Rudd or Gillard governments fault is disrespecting those families who have lost family in those workplace accidents. It is like blaming the Infrastructure Minister for every car cash on any new road the has been built under his watch. A pathetic accusation and scraping the bottom of the barrel much like the first comment on this page, so typical the Liberal supporter these days.

    • Against the Man says:

      04:02pm | 11/11/11

      Unionist you need to speak up, your tiny minority voice can’t be heard by the majority of this country - the anti-carbon tax and anti-ALP MAJORITY smile

    • TimB says:

      04:52pm | 11/11/11

      And what *you* still don’t get Unionist is that these poorly run fly-by-night installers with their shoddy practices were only able to get into the scheme because….the Government administered it poorly.

      If it had been better designed, igf only legitimate properly accredited insulation companies had been involved, this sort of thing could have been avoided. Yes the installers were to blame for the specific incidents. But the government is also to blame for fostering an environment that allowed it to happen.

    • onlooker says:

      06:11am | 11/11/11

      We can’t do anything about The Carbon Tax for now, if it is as bad as Tony Abbott says we can vote for him and that will be the end of it. You can’t spend your time worrying about what might be, you to have deal with things you have some control over, or you will kill yourself early with worry. I don’t like Tony Abbott at all, but like everyone else, if this hits my hip pocket to hard, he will have my vote.

    • IanRobert says:

      07:12am | 11/11/11

      Words of wisdom! No point giving ourselves a heart attack over something we can’t do anything about. Besides Vengeance is a dish better served cold. I don’t believe anyone alive today will lead another Labor Government. Let’s hope there is another Costello out there to pull us back from the brink of national bankruptcy

    • Peter says:

      11:02am | 11/11/11

      A very good comment, onlooker.  But I would go further, personally, and say that there are other issues on which I will judge Gillard vs Abbott.  The Mining Tax, for me, is a biggie.  Nobody seems to be discussing that anymore, but remember that Abbott reckons he will repeal that, as well.

    • Chris L says:

      07:11pm | 11/11/11

      A wise stance, Onlooker. The truth is, however, that the right wing must maintain the rage or they will likely lose momentum. It’s going to be a long haul if the next election is to be late 2013 as Mr Kenny (have you ever watched Robocop?!) predicts, but I suspect they have the stamina for it.

    • Mayday says:

      06:18am | 11/11/11

      Treasury modelling which predicts household electricity prices will jump by a tiny amount (0.9 per cent) - this seems a woefully low estimate!

      Kitchen table economics tells me the snowball effect of this tax increase will be much greater and it won’t just be electricity but most household goods and services will rise in price.

      And if the compensation package has been based on the above figures then I think we are in for a rough ride and it just won’t cover my increased expenses.

    • Treasury LOL says:

      07:13am | 11/11/11

      Treasury also does the budget and Wayne Swann’s budget are routinely out by 10-30 billions

      So it does not mean much

    • Jase says:

      07:48am | 11/11/11

      Exactly right Mayday, in my business the flow on cost is estimated at 18.7% before GST. Thats a mighty large overnight increase in costs. That is also based on the direct cost of providing the service only, not the indirect costs. I would imagine the final number we pass on to our clients, who will then pass it onto the consumer will be around 20-22%

      The part I would be most concerned about is how much of an increase businesses will go for. This is a rare opportunity to go for as much as you think the new market will bare with zero implications on existing customers, realistically nobody has any idea how much of an increase the market will absorb before volume drops. The market price will rise by more than the actual cost of the tax, that I am sure of, by how much, well time will tell.

    • Andee says:

      08:23am | 11/11/11

      The ‘Treasury modelling’ will try very hard to please their masters, the ALP. They are Labor supporters or the chiefs are , as much as that is boo-ed by Labor lackeys who post here. The cost of the Carbon Tax is going to be high when all is accounted for. Although ,Labor lackeys will deny this , go for it, Labor lackeys.

    • Charles says:

      06:29am | 11/11/11

      This brainless tax will raise electricity prices more than 0.9%, that is a given.  Now even Treasury agrees it will be closer to 10%.  This will filter through to every aspect of the economy, so everywhere voters turn, they will face price rises due to the impact of the carbon dioxide tax.

      The other thing that will hurt will be the deployment of thousands of public servants to implement it.  This group has a relatively large footprint and usually find they can’t hide themselves very well, as they will be regulating and intruding into pretty much every part of our lives.

      It will be toxic, but much more so than WorkChoices which was pretty much built on a propaganda base, whereas this will be grounded in reality and cannot be dressed up to any extent.

    • Dave says:

      06:41am | 11/11/11

      the problem with the Treasury modelling is exactlly the samne as the climate modelling. It is done on computers and when worked into real world situations, is proven to be completely wrong.
      This is a scam, plain and simple. Call it whatever you want - Global Warming, Climate Change - it all spells S C A M and Australia is being taken for a ride.

    • Nathan says:

      08:06am | 11/11/11

      @Dave
      Right its all one big conspiracy…....what ever champ the modelling is not exactly the same. I actually work for a company and all they do is economic modelling and have a track record of accurate calls including current events so it does work, what i have learnt is its about getting people to listen that is the difficult bit. Unfortunately to many people like you are set in their way and won’t. Is the world being round another conspiracy?
      I am sick to death about this climate change debate, what debate needs to be had. Most the scientists in the field agree its real. Why would you be right and them wrong.

      If there is a 10% chance climate change is real surely we have to take out insurance

    • morrgo says:

      08:21am | 11/11/11

      The problem with all such modelling is that the outcome is very sensitive to key assumptions. 

      As we know, one of Treasury’s assumptions in the carbon modelling is coordinated international action: they have been criticized for it a lot, but they do not budge.  Neither would they release the model so that others can check it for built-in bias and re-run it with more realistic assumptions.

    • Reg says:

      08:27am | 11/11/11

      Computer modelling doesn’t take into account human factors… which is whyit is ultimately so unreliable for things like this.

      The government just presented to every business in Australia a valid, believable reason to raise prices.

      My gut tells me that the big supermarkets will just raise the price of everything by 10c, therefore increasing the cost of the weekly shop to about $5 -$10.

      Other retailers will be more selective, but increase those items by 50c or $1.

    • tommo says:

      10:45am | 11/11/11

      So you’re preference is to ignore all modelling, done by independent departments on computers, no less. My abacus will beat your computer any day.
      On hugely complex economy wide interactions, its far better off to go with your gut. At least if you make it all up, you don’t have to worry about the problems of incorrect assumptions etc. My gut tells me it almost beer o’clock but i’m not going to use that to try and convince my boss i should go to the pub at 9am, or will I?

    • L. says:

      11:14am | 11/11/11

      “I actually work for a company and all they do is economic modelling and have a track record of accurate calls including current events so it does work, what i have learnt is its about getting people to listen that is the difficult bit”

      That’s because most modelling is utter crap. Take climate chnage for example. Even the IPCC’s most optimistic climate change modelling for right now is orders of magnitude worse than what is currently being observed.

    • Max, of Rocky says:

      11:25am | 11/11/11

      @  morrgo

      as an old IT pro I know the the appropriate phrase

      GIGO

      Garbage In Garbage Out.

      You get the result you want by input it needs.  LOL

      Oldest trick in the book   wink

    • glenm says:

      11:31am | 11/11/11

      @ nathan,
      The thing is that most people assume that those people who actually agree with the assuption that climate change is impacted by the behaviour of man , also agree with the carbon tax.  I can agree with the scientists but i dont agree with the government policy. The debate that has not occured is the debate over the policy. Where has Julia Gillard discussed the alternative of nuclear power, where has she discussed her policy that we should purchase carbon credits from overseas rather than spending Australian money in Australia.  Where is Dick Smith the champion of the Australian products campaigning to keep the tax dollars we spend being spent on schemes to benefit our economy. No the economists have told us the scheme will be cheaper to purchase overseas credits. Money spent overseas doesn’t create one job in Australia.
      By all means do your economic modelling but the model isnt the full picture.  This government has an appaling track record of being able to forecast the outcome of policy they introduce.

    • luke09 says:

      11:51am | 11/11/11

      The government is more likely creating a new false economy in the name of green energy. At this present time the price of carbon in europe has fallen to $12 per tonne and Gillard price starts at $23 and will increase higher to enable the government to keep paying compensation costs for subsidising the green economy.

      In five to ten years when the price of carbon hovers around the $2.00 per tonne quote worldwide and our cost of living being unaffordable due to all taxpayers subsidising the Green Industry Inc. we will see the true extent of what Dave calls a scam.

      The carbon tax driving the new green economy could well be another dot com extravaganza and if that happens, Greece current liability in the current euro crisis will look economically responsible.

    • dave says:

      02:09pm | 11/11/11

      Nathan I’m quite happy to listen to reasonable debate and peer reviewed evidence on mans influence on climate change. I actually jumped on the bandwagon 12 years ago and spruiked the impotance of acting quickly to avert an environmental disaster. Over time I formed a brain of my own after gathering as much information as I could and realised that the climate will change naturally and there are an incredible number of factors naturally occuring which have far grreater effects on the climate.
      As for the climate modelling done 10 years ago to predict world temperatures and conditions in 2011, I would rather confidently say that they are a complete failure and, again, do not work in the real world.

    • Jase says:

      06:51am | 11/11/11

      The question is, how easily can this policy be repealed? It is all good and well to go to next election saying he will repeal the policy, but its my understanding that the Greens have made sure that it would be near on impossible to do as it is an independent self funding committee that is being established? (Correct me if I am wrong on that one)

      The sh*t will hit the fan when the actual cost on the population is far far more than they were expecting or compensated for and any economic problems we have from now until the election. That is what will destroy the greens and stop the ALP from getting back any form of power.

      A complete Eurozone collapse around the time that the tax comes into play, is the perfect storm and it is brewing quite nicely. Do you think average Joe will look into the finer details, most of the population can barely maintain personal finances let alone have a solid understanding of what is happening around them.
      All the average person will see is this tax being introduced, and then a massive recession, of course they will blame the tax regardless of what caused the issue (although the tax certainly will not help the situation).

      That would be the best case scenario for the Liberals, to go to an election in 2013, after the introduction of a tax and during a massive global recession unlike anything that we have seen. I am looking forward to 2013 with the ALP & Greens getting burnt at the stake.

    • Mouse says:

      07:44am | 11/11/11

      Nobody knows how easy or hard this CT will be to repeal but I suppose,  like everything, if it can be built it can be torn down. What about initially making the carbon tax/tonne $0, then the Liberals will be able to negate the costs immediately and dismantle it completely in time without much pain to the consumer. Of course the people on the dole would lose their over compensation ( $9.90 CT cost/wk + $10.10 compo/wk = 20 cents profit, so Treasury tells us)  but as everything would now not have a CT on it the compensation would no longer be needed, would it.  Then we would also not have to send billions of dollars overseas to buy carbon credits which, btw, have shown to be extremely popular with fraudsters and black marketeers in Europe.  If it wasn’t so serious it would be hysterical, but hey, Australia will lead the way!! lol

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      09:41am | 11/11/11

      @ Mouse

      The difficulty with “unpicking” this tax is that the coalition, if in power, will get no help with the task from any other party in parliament. Hence undoing the tax would require both a double dissolution election and a majority of a joint sitting of parliament.  That is not likely to be achieved before early to mid 2015.

      Your solution of bringing the tax to $0 presents the same problems to business being taxed as the repealing of the tax would. The tax will have been in operation for more than two and a half years before any of that can happen. Those businesses will have invested in total, billions of dollars in carbon credits. Making those credits worthless by eliminating the carbon charge or repealing the tax itself, would present them with the loss of all that investment. 500 companies will not stand idly by whilst that happens.

      Mr Abbott’s warning to those companies to not invest in credits will not cut the mustard with them because to not do so would mean that they could not offset their tax liabilities and would necessitate them to increase the price of their products to such levels as to be extremely damaging to the economy. 500 companies will not send their home market into recession to please a political party. They are geared to work within government regulations but will pressure any political party that will damage their business model to such a catastrophic level.

      Like it or not, the reality that this tax will remain in place will dawn on those that opposed it.

      The peripheral effect that it will have is also not good news for Mr Abbott following his ‘blood oath’. Some his front bench that have also been vociferous in their opposition might also suffer fatal political wounds.

      I think this is something for us to watch in coming months but; I think there will be machinations already begun to replace Abbott and many of his team by people that can see the political storm coming. Watch the conservative media and commentators begin to cool on Mr Abbott as Paul Pascoe and Laurie Oaks already have.

    • dovif says:

      11:09am | 11/11/11

      Ruben Camejo

      The difficulty with “unpicking” this tax is that the coalition, if in power, will get no help with the task from any other party in parliament.

      If the ALP is destroy at the next election as the polls keep suggesting and Australians rejects the Carbon tax (65-35 in most polls) . I do not think it is in the interest of the ALP or greens to force the Australian people to tell them they do not want the Carbon tax.

      Both the ALP and Greens would not want a DD election, from which they will be destroyed. I expect they will suddenly come up with a few excuses like. The world is a different place today, Europe have reduce their ETS to 6 Euro (AU$9) to stop the economic damages caused by their ETS, and as long as China/India and US keep increasing their emittion, it would be foolish to do something, when everyone is going the other way

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      12:18pm | 11/11/11

      @ dovif

      Politically, you have a point as far as Labor is concerned, however, The Greens will go don in flames before they vote to undo their baby.

      The elephant in the room will be the party you ignored in your reply; the business lobby. this is a lobby of the most pwerfil 500 companies in australia that wil NOT want to lose billions on a political whim.

      They will, my prediction is, put enough pressure on the coalition to re-instate Turnbull and ditch Abbott and half his front bench before the next election so as to avoid having to go through the political battle to repeal the tax.

      What do you say to that?

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      12:18pm | 11/11/11

      @ dovif

      Politically, you have a point as far as Labor is concerned, however, The Greens will go don in flames before they vote to undo their baby.

      The elephant in the room will be the party you ignored in your reply; the business lobby. this is a lobby of the most pwerfil 500 companies in australia that wil NOT want to lose billions on a political whim.

      They will, my prediction is, put enough pressure on the coalition to re-instate Turnbull and ditch Abbott and half his front bench before the next election so as to avoid having to go through the political battle to repeal the tax.

      What do you say to that?

    • Yuri says:

      01:28pm | 11/11/11

      @ Rubens Camejo

      I haven’t been paying too much attention to the details of the tax, so I might have this wrong, but I thought the permit trading etc. only came into effect after 3 years (when the ETS starts). Is buying and trading credits/permits part of the carbon tax?
      Also another question, which I have never seen brought up; are other greenhouse gases such as methane included (CO2 equivalents)?

    • dovif says:

      01:41pm | 11/11/11

      Ruben Camejo

      If you want to buy a tv from an Australian retailer after 30 June 2012, you will pay the carbon tax. If you buy it directly from America/Japan/China/India, you would not pay any carbon tax

      If you buy Coal/ Iron from Australia, you will pay the carbon tax, if you buy them from Brazil, Canada or South Africa you won’t have to pay the carbon tax.

      If you pay an Australian accountant to fill in your tax return, you will pays the carbon tax, if you get someone in India, you do not pay the carbon tax

      If a car is made in Australia, you will pay the carbon tax, but if you ship it from Indonesia/China, you won’t pay the carbon tax.

      The Carbon tax makes Australian business more expensive then their foreign competitors. This is the reason the EU want to introduce a Carbon tariff. Because the EU knows, their ETS had cost them tens of thousands of jobs, and is one of the reason their economies are a mess.

      Most mum and dad businesses are going to pay much more in energy cost, without any compensation.

      I think the only business who would be complaining about the removal of the carbon tax, is one that does not use any forms of energy, or one that does not have business in Australia

    • dovif says:

      01:49pm | 11/11/11

      Rubens Camejo

      The other point is the Carbon tax is meant to rise every year, so all business operating in Australia, will get more discriminated against, meanings they will need to look at more cost cutting and have their bottom line hit year after year

      At least with Abbott, they have certainty of doing nothing, until the rest of the world start doing something. That would not penalise Australian businesses, and employees

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      02:25pm | 11/11/11

      @ Yuri

      No methane and other gases are not included although part of the tax’s revenue is going to be used for methane capture projects in CSG, coal mining and other projects.

      Carbon credits are going to be able to be traded when an ETS comes into effect and the government starts limiting the amount of carbon permits available in the market. In the meantime, carbon credits can be used to limit the liability a company is exposed to this tax.  If you save100 tonnes of emissions because you’ve invested in enough wind turbines to save 100 tonnes, as an example, you will pay no tax.

      This is where the proprietary value of the credits issue comes in. Companies will be able to buy into green energy projects or carbon offset projects such as tree plantations, etc, and offset their liability now and as forward credits that can be traded under an ETS. It will be a question of economics if they sell or buy. If the government charges $25 a tonne for a carbon permit and companies are prepared to pay $27 per tonne of carbon credits then they’ll sell and vice versa. Keep in mind that this is designed to fit with an international market so it won’t be just Australian companies buying and selling credits in Australia.

      It is the reason that companies like Acciona, the biggest wind power generators in the world, are investing almost $1.9 billion dollars into Australian wind farms over the next few years.  They are a Spanish company.

    • Mouse says:

      02:25pm | 11/11/11

      @ Rubens Camejo, under Labor rule the next 3 years it is a carbon tax with the ETS coming in in 2015 so carbon credits aren’t needed until then. If the Liberals win the election in 2013, business will not be investing in carbon credits then so will not be losing billions of dollars, making your point there moot.  As dovif says, neither Labor or the Greens would want a DD so they will play it safe because we know how much they want to hang on to their seats and if it does go to a DD they will most certainly be in grave danger of losing them.

      As for Turnbull coming back as leader of the Liberals, I feel that the only ones that want him back are Labor and Green supporters.  He is all for his own agenda, very much like Rudd, and is not a team player as he has proved with great aplomb and showning a strong leaning towards Labor. To be perfectly honest, like him or hate him, Abbott has been effective in his role as the Opposition Leader.  He has said no to bad policy and supported policy his party believes in.  Don’t forget Labor in opposition said no to everything, good or bad.  I am also interested in what businesses you know that are keen to have this carbon tax added to their running costs.  Are these the ones that are against Liberal unpicking it?

      Laurie Oakes has always been cool on Abbott, didn’t you realise that?

    • PTom says:

      02:42pm | 11/11/11

      @Dovif,

      “If you want to buy a tv from an Australian retailer after 30 June 2012, you will pay the carbon tax. If you buy it directly from America/Japan/China/India, you would not pay any carbon tax”

      What the biggest load of crap.
      If you bought a TV Australian retailer you have warranty if you from bought oversea you don’t.
      If you bought a TV Australian retailer you have GST if you bought fromoversea you don’t.
      The Fixed price ETS will not have any impact until the Australian Retailer start receiving their bills and who knows maybe the price will go down if they have choosen a low carbon option.

      NEWS FLASH mining Iron ore is now part of the ETS.

      Wait there is more a Tax accountant now collects Carbon Tax . You do know India power companies actual pay a Carbon Tax .

      Business is already more expensive in Australia why
      1) The High Dollar
      2) GST
      3) Regulation

      And the EU tariff is to make sure companies that operate in Europe pay for their Carbon Emisssions . However Australian Business will not be paying such tariff because we have Carbon Reductions System. That is one less cost to Qantas.

      Yep under Direct Action business can do nothing to recieve Mums and Dads taxes, oops there goes Medicare.

    • PTom says:

      02:58pm | 11/11/11

      Mouse,
      “under Labor rule next 3 years it is a carbon tax with the ETS coming in in 2015 “
      Can you point to where it says Carbon Tax in the legislation.

      But the problem is that companies will have already purchased the Carbon permits for 2013 and 2014

    • Yuri says:

      03:08pm | 11/11/11

      Another question for whomever:

      Do the 500 (or is that 1000 or 400) companies pay the carbon price/tax on all CO2 they emit, or just that which is over the threshold that puts them in the top 500?

      As for Abbott reducing the cost of credits to $0 and not compensating the owners of the credits; I see this ‘intervention in the market’ as less of a burden on businesses than Labor creating the market in the first place.
      Which is the greater expense for businesses; having to pay for *all* carbon emissions, or not being refunded for the emissions you have acquired credits for?

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      03:11pm | 11/11/11

      @ Dovif

      Now you’re getting a bit silly and showing that you’re a little misguided in your efforts at painting a gloomy picture.

      TV’s are not made in Australia so there is no carbon tax component on them other than the extra electricity charges. If the shop’s electricity charges rise by $300 because of the tax and they sell 150 TV’s your charges are only going to be another $2 per TV, maybe $250 after GST and a little overcharge by the shop keeper.

      Bringing coal from overseas would prove vastly more expensive that to pay the tax.
      Again; electricity charges is the only component that would rise with an accountant. Not as much as a shop so $100 increase and 100 clients means $1.00 extra per month.

      Any business, including mum and dad businesses will pass on the extra charges for electricity, etc. it is you and I that will pay it over the counter and we’ get something to ease that pain unless you’re north of $80k per annum in which case you won’t notice the extra $20 a week going out.

      Now, please get sensible and stop making S@#t up.

      As for your other point about rising price on carbon, yes it will, but once it converts to an ETS it can also fall with the market. There will be a floor price it cannot go below, don’t quote me, but I think I heard $15 is going to be the floor and a maximum of $29 per tonne. The markets will decide the level. It will be question of economics for major polluters and they will invest into carbon credits, (green energy), and the charges to smaller businesses will not be such that it will break them.

      You seem to listen too much to the likes of Abbott and 2GB. You need to remember that politicians are like car salesmen. They never give you the full story and never tell you, you’ll need new brakes as soon as you drive away.

      The only thing you can trust is in the legislation they put up. Examine that and judge that, everything else is mostly BS. If you base your judgement on what pollies, shock jocks or newspapers that are obviously on a campaign to unseat the government tell you then you might as well allow yourself to be led by the nose

    • dovif says:

      03:29pm | 11/11/11

      Ptom

      I note you said this was a load of crap but could not come up with any reasons, except warranty

      As for your warranty issue, I can buy a TV from Sony’s website and they can ship it from overseas, which will minimise the power use and storage cost in Australia. I just will stop buying Australian brands and tv made in Australia, which consume Australian Carbon tax energy.

      Ptom said
      “Australian Retailer start receiving their bills and who knows maybe the price will go down if they have choosen a low carbon option.”

      Now that is complete BS, treasury had estimate that the Carbon tax will cost Australian businesses $11 billion in the first year, and then more the next 2 years. So you have business with that much loses, they can either
      Increase prices
      reduce cost, wages, employees etc

      They are not going to decrease prices after paying out $11 billion

      Ptom said
      “Business is already more expensive in Australia why
      1) The High Dollar
      2) GST
      3) Regulation”

      Except GST applies to import greater then $1,000 while the Carbon tax does not. If Australian business are struggling already as you said, it is good to hit them with another tax? What is your point there?

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      03:37pm | 11/11/11

      @ Mouse

      You seemed to have missed the economics of carbon credits and the way business operate. In a depressed market such as it is now, carbon credits are cheap to buy. This IS the time to buy them.
      When the tax comes in and for the next three years they can offset a company’s tax liability so the investment would be paying a dividend. When the ETS comes in, they will be tradable property.

      Companies would, as we speak assessing what forward credits they will be investing in. They cannot leave it to the next election and get hit for three years with all the tax and have nothing to show for it in the end. If the tax does not get repealed, those credits will be that much more expensive if they flood the market all at once with requests.

      As I said earlier; The Greens will go down in flames before they vote against it. Labor will force a DD election because they will have business on their side by the time a trigger is pulled. Businesses don’t give a hoot about politics; just in profits. Damage that and you’re doomed by them.
      Businesses are also a lot more aware than you and I about what’s coming and they know an international ETS is as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. It’s just a matter of time.

      We’ll differ on how good an opposition leader Abbott has been although I will grant that his tactics designed towards an early election were executed very well. However, this was never going to be a sprint barring a fatal heart attack. Long term his politics won’t stand up because his policies are liable to be exposed as they have began to be recently.

      You also have to remember that since the 1970’s every party that has won FROM opposition has won promising what they WILL do, not what they will undo. History is lettered with the likes of “rollback”

    • dovif says:

      03:53pm | 11/11/11

      Rubens Camejo

      Unlike you, I do my research, I find out what happened to the EU, and then decide for myself, whether something will be good for Australia

      my first point for tv is as followed
      a. CT will impact on the retail sector, when something is on display in a showroom in Australia, it consumes a lot of electricity. A Carbon tax will make it even cheaper for Australian to buy from overseas, rather then buy in Australia, which will have an effect on employment
      b. back office, If sony have an office in Australia, which pays carbon tax on all its inputs, they might find it cheaper to base their Australian head office in Singapore or Hong Kong for example, which will be cheaper

      In case you did not know, Australia is an EXPORTER of Iron or Coal, mining is an energy intensive industry. China is our customer, and they can buy from anywhere in the world. Australian coal/iron will now be relatively more expensive then Coal/Iron mined from another country

      As for mum and dad business passing on costs, economic textbooks tell us that elasticity of supply and demand govern whether an entity can pass on their cost, and they can pass on their cost to suppliers, employee, shareholders or customers.

      A wedding card printing business with competition from cheap printing in India or China, might not be able to pass on the carbon tax cost to their customers. Likewise a lot of business with low margins, might not be able to pass on their cost.

      The GST told us that price on average did not rise by 10%, these cost are occassionally passed on elsewhere

      “As for your other point about rising price on carbon, yes it will, but once it converts to an ETS it can also fall with the market. “

      This is just bs, depending on the amount of permits, the prices can either rise or fall, if the government expects it to fall, they would not have legislated such a high price to begin with

      So do some research and stop posting garbage

    • Roadknight says:

      10:36pm | 11/11/11

      OMG! It’s Tweedledum and Tweedledumber!

      Dovif and Rubens neither of you have the faintest idea of what you are talking about.

      Give it a rest lads… Your tiny little brains must be hurting by now! hahahahahah!

    • B says:

      12:01pm | 13/11/11

      @Roadknight & Ruben

      You are so far out of your depth it is not funny.  I would hate to be a dependant of you.

    • B says:

      12:01pm | 13/11/11

      @Roadknight & Ruben

      You are so far out of your depth it is not funny.  I would hate to be a dependant of you.

    • thatmosis says:

      07:11am | 11/11/11

      If as people say the greens have locked it in all Abbott has to do is lower the tax to $0 and thats and end to it. Something worth nothing is no good to anyone and all the green schemes that it was supposed to pay for will go with it. As for the monies that the pensioners get from the scheme just leave it in place as the next pension rise. no problems, after all $10.00 a week isnt going to break the bank.
      I dont think anyone believes the compenstaion package that this Government has put into place will be sufficient as they have quite a history of under budgetting or overspending whichever side you are on. Most of thier policies have gone well over budget and this will be the crucial factor at the next election as people find that their dollars are being wasted on a tax on nothing for nothing and the cost of living has gone through the roof.

    • PTom says:

      09:28am | 11/11/11

      Explains how Liberal cost things.

      Setting $0 on permits, both companies and the government will loss money. As it still leaves the government with financial commitment like signed business contracts and unemployed staff.

      Keeping a $520 a year for one is not much but for half million it is.
      What about the $18,000 Tax free threshold.

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      12:34pm | 11/11/11

      @ Ptom

      You’re right; there is more to unpicking this tax than meets the eye of some.

      Politically; try telling the hundreds of thousands that they now have to pay tax again on income under $21k

      Then tell the pensioners and self funded retirees that their increase in allowances and pensions will be taken away.

      Then try telling the same thing to all others on some sort of welfare.

      We’re talking millions here, enough to cause a landslide result but not the way the coalition imagines.

      Most political parties and their spin meinsters would have a field day with that sort of policy, especially when they add that the reason the mining and carbon taxes being repealed is so that big companies don’t suffer.

      I am afraid that regardless of what you think about these taxes; in 2013 the coalition will be on a hiding to nothing to sell pay cuts so big business gets more profitable… It will be interesting

    • dovif says:

      02:27pm | 11/11/11

      Ptom

      The EU recently flooded the ETS market with permits to reduce their ETS from 20 Euros to 5 Euros

      It is easily done and in the interest of the EU

    • PTom says:

      03:09pm | 11/11/11

      Dovif,

      Do you mean the EU ETS regulator or the EU ETS market?

    • Holly says:

      07:11am | 11/11/11

      Tony Abbott will not be leading the Coalition to the next election.  So the big issue is who will it be?  Malcolm Turnbull and Labor voters hope it will be Malcolm Turnbull.  At the moment he seems the only likely alternative.  Malcolm is unlikely to want to repeal the Clean Energy laws.  So then where will you all be?  Who will you vote for to repeal the tax - Barnaby Joyce and his rump of agrarian socialists.

    • Joan says:

      07:37am | 11/11/11

      The Labor brand stinks - the polls say so.  and one replay of ` No Carbon Tax` lie will stoke up the stink - add to it all other Labor failed policies and unwanted measures imposed on Australian society and Labor will resemble a compost heap by 2013.

    • james says:

      09:25am | 11/11/11

      Its only a matter of time before he goes.

      Satisfaction for him is very low, and when the primary vote normalises he is a dead duck.

      Turnbull will lead the LNP to a victory on a model of “Labor Lite”.
      Keeping most of the same programs and running small surpluses.

    • AdamC says:

      09:35am | 11/11/11

      Holly, I have to admit I enjoy reading your mindless, desperate Labor trolling. It is like the comic relief.

      People are often accused on the Punch of being ‘party hacks’ or paid bloggers from Labor HQ. Obviously, I have no idea whether Labor are paying you or not, but they should be. Nobody should have to be so embarassingly absurd for free.

    • LDLS says:

      09:46am | 11/11/11

      Let me guess.  You’re one of the progressive inner city latte sipping set who decide what is good for the planet and everyone in it without any part of your socialist theories infringing on that coffee sitting in front of you. Your lifestyle being important of course being one of the ‘elites’ who know how things should be done unlike the rest of the ‘ignorants’ around you.  They’re just the pathetic little sheep your lot feels they need to herd.

      The disrespect shown by your pathetic little ‘no life experience’ lot towards people of the land gets a tad weary.

      One day you too will grow mature. Never fear. Then again…..maybe not.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      10:31am | 11/11/11

      I agree. Abbott will not be leader of the Liberals at the next election. They will have to get rid of Abbott so that they are not constrained by his stupid “blood oath”. After the ridicule that Gillard has copped because of her “lie” the Abbott will not be able to back down on his promise.

      If Abbott does get in - who cares? He has pledged to spend all of his time winding the odometer back to the glorious Howard Caliphate (minus Work Choices). Nothing new - just backwards to the future - or is it forward to the past?

      P.S. 70+ billion dollar Sh!t sandwich anyone?

    • Martin says:

      11:49am | 11/11/11

      @Holly and Blind Drongo, you meant to say that you “hope” Tony Abbott will not be leading the Libs to the next election because you know he will win!  LMAO, he’s piddled on two Labor PM’s what gives you the impression this won’t continue when you have the most hopeless Labor government in living memory? The only leader that will get a$#e will be Gillard.

      Honestly, you Labor dills are a complete joke. Why, when he’s been that far infront in the polls for so long, would the Libs dump Abbott.  You are just fiddling with yourselves. Give it up and get a dose of reality.

    • Mattb says:

      01:28pm | 11/11/11

      I hate to say it, but if it isn’t TA leading the libs to the next election, I’d have to say Julie bishop. She’s less conservative, has already told Abbott to shove it several time since he became leader and mining and big business get on well with her. She been deputized long enough!. Plus, she’s female, female v’s female removes any perceived gender disadvantages.

      I still beleive Malcolm turnball is the obvious choice. Yeah, he was unpopular when Kevin was PM and the labor government was still highly rated in mid 09’, but I wonder where he’d be ranked now if he was given the job back against the current labor party in all it’s “glory”. Still, it all just heresay and opinion…

    • Bony Toby says:

      07:16pm | 11/11/11

      @Martin

      Completely agree with you. “Abbott won’t be leader"seems to be the latest slightly desperate mantra of Labor/Greens who are looking for hope while trying to appear objective.

      Abbott almost won the unwinnable election, and while they eventually lost, they managed to leave Labor crippled, bleeding and very in bad shape for round 2. Support for Abbott from within the party has never been higher. And yes while Labor and some member s ofthe public personally dislike him - they don’t dictate Liberal policy.

      Turnbull is a contraversial figure at best. Hockey didn’t step up to the leadership plate when he was given a shot - that hurt him.

      Barring some extraordinary meltdown, Abbott WILL lead the Libs to the next election. People need to stop confusing their personal hopes with political reality.

    • Mattb says:

      07:13am | 11/11/11

      IF he is still the liberal party leader and IF the liberals win in 2013 Tony Abbott won’t recind the carbon tax, he won’t roll back the mining tax, he won’t bring back work choices, there will be no double diss over any policy issue, and the NBN will continue being built. Why?. Because he’s a spineless wimp who once he gets the keys to the lodge will never do anything that may risk him having those keys taken away.

      Plus he hasn’t any real policies of his own, the talent from the Howard years has left the coalition and all we’ve been left with is the “mad uncles”. Take RyaN’s advise, go and check out the liberal website and have a read through their policies and try and find one, just one, major policy that isn’t a fuc&ing; embarrassing joke.

      Their Direct action policy?. No thank you

      Broadband?. Pfft, third world countries have faster broadband speeds

      Maternity leave?. Bit expensive don’t you think?. How it going to be funded?. Oh, that’s right by raising company TAX, gee who will they pass that extra cost to?. Even half his own party think its a brain fart

      Asylum seekers?. Nauru didn’t work then, 80% ended up here or New Zealand (so here), and all the experts have told Abbott it won’t work now.

      And let’s not forget the 70 billion dollars he needs to find in his budget whilst giving us all tax cuts. Pfft, sorry don’t think I’ll fall for that one either.

      Ok, wait a sec, his mental health policy is pretty good. So good it’s forced labor to improve theirs. That’s a win.

      Abbott, and his supporters, keep telling us we need an new election right this minute, you’d think he’d have some decent policies to justify it, I mean, he wouldn’t just want to roll into the lodge on the back of the voter anger toward the labor party, would he?......

    • Super D says:

      07:25am | 11/11/11

      Is that a word for word from the ALP spinmasters handbook or are you paraphrasing?

      The whole idea that Abbott won’t attempt to repeal the carbon tax is nothing more than the ALP attempting to project their own lack of integrity onto the coalition.

    • TimB says:

      08:44am | 11/11/11

      IF he is still the liberal party leader and IF the liberals win in 2013 Tony Abbott won’t recind the carbon tax, he won’t roll back the mining tax, he won’t bring back work choices, there will be no double diss over any policy issue, and the NBN will continue being built. Why?. Because he’s a spineless wimp who once he gets the keys to the lodge will never do anything that may risk him having those keys taken away.

      Let’s see if I get your logic straight. Abbott wins the election on the promise to repeal some hated legislation. The second he’s in office he backflips and chooses not to do it. And this will endear him to voters (thus keeping him in the lodge) ....how?

      If Tony backlips on his promise to recind the tax, voters are going to be waiting for him at the next election with baseball bats. So in actuality the exact opposite of your scenario is true: Only by moving to repeal the tax as promised can he hold onto the keys to the Lodge.

    • Dean says:

      08:58am | 11/11/11

      Actually SuperD, it’s more like Tony speaking unscripted again, or unsurprisingly speaking without thinking.  On top of trying to pay for his tax cuts, if he repeals the law he’ll have to find billions of dollars to compensate companies that have already purchased carbon credits.  Under law they’re considered personal property, requiring some form of compensation if they’re suddenenly rendered worthless by Abbott..

      Business leaders have warned him against it also, as by then it will be a market not a ‘tax’, repealing it then would destabilise other markets as well as our economy. 

      He’s gone a bit quite on the ‘repeal’ front of late, I wonder if he’s been told to shut up about repealing it because not only would it be almost impossible but come at a very large cost?

    • TimB says:

      09:18am | 11/11/11

      “Under law they’re considered personal property, requiring some form of compensation if they’re suddenenly rendered worthless by Abbott..”

      As I understand it they require compensation if he *takes* them. Like if the government takes your land, they have to compensate you.

      If however the government opens up a rubbish tip right next door, thus sending your land values plummeting….I’m fairly certain the government doesn’t have to compensate the landholder for the fall in land value. (I’m sure our resident ‘kind of a lawyer’ iansand will be along to prove me wrong if I’m mistaken).

      By the same token, if Abbott moves to reduce the value of emission permits to zero, he hasn’t actually taken away the permit. So the business isn’t entitled to compensation.They are however free to continue emitting…just like the permits allow them to.

    • PTom says:

      09:50am | 11/11/11

      Mattb, your right.
      He will come up with some non-core statement like the government is broke and while he would be willing to give blood for Australia the roll back would create a sovereign risks so to hard to do.

    • RyaN says:

      10:26am | 11/11/11

      @Mattb: Absolutely, that is the best non-partisan advise you can give anyone when deciding who to vote for, find out as much as you can about the party, their leader, their policies, their history in delivering stable government and most importantly their values and whether they actually listen to the people once being elected.

    • Cookie Monster says:

      11:45am | 11/11/11

      Mattb says:08:13am | 11/11/11 “IF he is still the liberal party leader and IF the liberals win in 2013 Tony Abbott won’t recind the carbon tax, he won’t roll back the mining tax, he won’t bring back work choices, there will be no double diss over any policy issue, and the NBN will continue being built.”

      PTom says:10:50am | 11/11/11 “Mattb, your right.
      He will come up with some non-core statement like the government is broke and while he would be willing to give blood for Australia the roll back would create a sovereign risks so to hard to do.”

      Are we just playing Labor-tragic hypotheticals? Anyone can participate in wishful thinking, but it doesn’t actually make have a point to it.

      Dean says:09:58am | 11/11/11 “Business leaders have warned him against it also, as by then it will be a market not a ‘tax’, repealing it then would destabilise other markets as well as our economy.”

      It won’t be market. The carbon credits are purchased directly from the government, there is an unlimited supply at a set price. They are not being bought and sold business-to-business. Companies will simply budget for purchasing enough carbon credits to get them to the next election. It’s easy to do because the future price and the rough timing of the election are known variables.

    • Ian1 says:

      07:19am | 11/11/11

      Undoubtedly it will be taken to an election for a mandate either way.
      If Tony manages to keep the focus on the Carbon Tax, the overwhelming majority of voters do actually want it repealed according to all polls, so really it matters not what the celebratory greens think about it.
      It will be undone, and all of Labor’s failures in office will need costly repair.
      People will not easily forget the burden to the taxpayer for the failure by Gillard to take this Carbon Tax to an election first!

    • Agaisnt the Man says:

      03:56pm | 11/11/11

      It will be a price Labor will pay for decades to come. I can’t believe that the extensive and permanent damage being done to Labor isn’t because of Abbott but simply because of Gillard.

    • chrissie says:

      07:37am | 11/11/11

      @Mattb

      Don’t be so sure Abbott is spineless, and don’t forget that if elected he will likely have a mandate for the elimination of the carbon tax.  That’s a mandate that Gillard and Labor simply never had - In fact, they’re only in power right now because they promised the people of Australia there never would be a carbon tax in the first place.  The lie was bad, but the high-fives in Parliament and the denigration of any opponent as ‘incontinent’ and ‘of no consequence’ was really, really poor form.

      I also believe that many critics of Gillard and Labor are not *necessarily* supporters of Abbott - they’ve just had a gut full of deceit and treachery, and that’s pretty understandable.

    • PTom says:

      08:51am | 11/11/11

      In 2007 Labor and Liberal had a been elected on a ETS a mandate. Nov 2009 Abbott still supported the ETS. Abbott in Dec 2009 ignore the people’s mandate and voted against a ETS.
      Now you call on Labor to support a mandate you don’t even have.

    • Martin says:

      03:04pm | 11/11/11

      @Ptom. Well bullshitted. The polls tell us the carbon tax is a very unpopular. The Coalition position has been no tax since Dec 2009. That is their policy. The Labor party went to the last election with a policy of no carbon tax as well. Since Copenhagen things have changed, and hence this ETS position in 2007 is no longer relevant as evidenced in the before mentioned polls.

      This dopey Labor argument talking retrospectively is nonsense. Time has moved on more people are now sceptical of the science, the effect of the tax on living expenses and the effect it will have on the competitiveness of Australian businesses.

    • PTom says:

      04:00pm | 11/11/11

      @Martin
      What don’t you get it Abbott lied he campaigned for a ETS right up to Nov 2009, but as soon as he became Liberal Leader he said NO, Copenhagen had nothing to do with Gollum’s mind change.

      Gollum became Leader leader 1st December 2009
      Copenhagen 6- 18 December 2009

      As I said no party has to respect a Liberal Government mandate because Gollum does not.

    • B says:

      12:28pm | 13/11/11

      @Ptom

      Clutching at straws mate!!

    • Terry says:

      08:04am | 11/11/11

      Who is sitting on the fence now? It seems the media have no bloody idea what the future holds for this wonderful country so now the vast majority have to put up with this kind of opinionated journalism about what could happen to Tony Abbott and Julia Gillard.

      Smart people are not interested, the damage has been done and we can’t wait for Elections when the power goes back to the people.

    • MarkS says:

      08:22am | 11/11/11

      “Her logic is rudimentary……once they’ve enjoyed the tax cuts and pension increases, which for battlers will more than offset any higher power bills they incur”

      Yes her logic is rudimentary & incorrect.

      Negative valence information has more impact & fades slower then positive valence information. In other words people will continue to be angry at the higher bills long after they have stopped noticing the tax cuts & pension increases.

      Furthermore it is the educated, high earning demographic from which the greatest support for the carbon tax comes. The ignorant that do not accept that there is any problem are compensated while the educated high earners who supported it receive the insult of $3.

      Their position will change as they see their bills increase & realise that the rest of the world has done nothing. Once they also internalise that they are the biggest losers out of this & any chance of real carbon reform has been killed, their rage will be incandescent.

      Much like Workchoices, when Howard betrayed the very people that put him in power. This very poorly designed tax is a betrayal; it will only succeed in lowering Australian carbon emissions by the brutal method of harming the economy & destroying employment. While sending trillions of our hard earned dollars overseas to buy dodgy bits of paper.

    • Micky K. says:

      08:28am | 11/11/11

      I just don’t know why everyone is upset. Simply forget about god and just put all of your faith completely in the government as they just know best, lets face it guys they have never ever ...ever failed us ever before. smile smile smile Barzinga!!!!!!!

    • JustMEinT says:

      08:39am | 11/11/11

      Julia is already spending income she does not have but it expecting to get from her catbon tax scheme….. she could not be trusted when she said there will be NO ..... and now she is promising in one years time (? after the carbon tax income begins to roll in) a HUGE boost to salaries for carers…. can she be trusted? This surely is only a step in the VOTE FOR ME scenarion leading up to the next election! She must seriously think we all have sponges for brains!

    • John C says:

      08:43am | 11/11/11

      They are not doing the maths correctly.

      If the extra cost to, say a retailer, is $10, the retail price will not just go up $10, the actual increase to the retailer. The retailer will want to add a margin of profit which will justify a return on the extra capital invested in buying the goods wholesale. 12 per cent is a modest return on capital, so this means the increased will be $11.20 ($10 plus $1.20 to justify investment of capital.

      Add a further 1.12 for GST and the increase becomes $12.32 and not $10.

      The same formula must apply to any increase in costs and will apply all along the supply line, so in the case of a primary product, the farmer will add something, the middle man will add something, the wholesaler will add something and the retailer will add something.

    • persephone says:

      12:09pm | 11/11/11

      John C

      If the extra cost is $10, that’s an extra cost. The retailer is already selling whatever it is at a profit. There’s no reason why he should up the price more.

      And there’s a danger if he does, because his competitor may chose not to - or not to as much. So if his $12, for example, takes the item up to $52 and his competitor sells it for $50, then he risks losing business.

      And Treasury does this kind of maths all the time, so the supply chain will have been well and truly factored in.

    • B says:

      12:33pm | 13/11/11

      @persephone

      What about then in collusion prone industries like supermarkets?

      Coles/Woolies have been suspected of collusion for along time.  It has never been proven, but then again how would you prove it?

      So if coles and woolies both agree to raise prices by an extra 12% ABOVE the carbon tax, who is their to compete with them or stop them.  IGA? ALDI? ACCC?  Pleaaaasssee!!!

      You also cannot honestly sit there and say some business’ will attempt to profit from this.  If even ONE business does the wrong thing it is Dillards fault.  She brought in the stupid tax.

    • Perfect Storm says:

      08:47am | 11/11/11

      Here’s what I think is going to happen between now and the next election. Apologies for the length but I’ve been wanting to put this down for a while. Also predictions are fun!

      I think a Perfect Storm is brewing for Labor. Here’s why:

      1. Australians don’t care about compensation. Labor once ran a truck around the country with John Howard’s quote “Australians have never been better off”. It worked a charm because Australians didn’t think they were better off. Here’s the problem: It’s true. Al the studies show we’re the luckiest country alive and yet nobody believes it (real wages up, unemployment down etc…). We’re all struggling, we’re all poor. We all need a hand-out. Thing is, the hand-outs we get just won’t resonate because nobody notices an extra $10 a week - we *never* think we’re better off.

      2. Europe is fucked. You don’t need to be an economist to understand how this happened. Many countries borrowed a little bit more than they could afford and they can’t afford to pay it back. So now they have to borrow more money at a higher interest rate. It’s the Government equivalent of using a new credit card (with a higher interest rate) to pay off the old one. Eventually you run out of banks willing to give you credit cards and you have no choice but to sell everything you own. This will continue to brew and will most likely come to a head over the next 12 - 18 months, right in the middle of Australian election time.

      3. Labor will never deliver a budget surplus because of the fallout from point 2. Economists might dismiss the idea of a surplus but it’s important given how much weight has been put on it politically. It will be another failed promise and this time, it will tie-in with problems in Europe. The perception will be that Australia is financially in trouble.

      4. The Carbon tax doesn’t raise enough money to pay for itself. If that $2B budget deficit is because of a $5B shortfall in the Carbon Tax… Well, you know how that’s going to play. It will remove the ability for Labor to say “these financial problems are Europe’s fault”. They will own the debt and the financial implications of it. This is a political death sentence.

      5. I suspect point 2 is also going to lead to a down-turn in the mining sector which will reduce income from the Mining Tax. With two new taxes that aren’t raising as much as they should be and the country still in debt, it paints a picture that no matter how much money Labor has, they just can’t manage it.

      6. Electricity prices will rise beyond what the compensation covers. The minute someone does a study and finds that the compensation of $10 a week has already been eaten up in price rises of $12 a week - and the Government doesn’t have any money to increase the compensation (or if it tries to, it will look fiscally irresponsible), the momentum will be on again to just remove the tax.

      7. At some point, someone’s going to do a study into how much Australia’s CO2 emissions have been reduced as a result of the Carbon Tax (NOTE: Not how much the temperature has decreased as that’s irrelevant - I’m talking specifically how much CO2 has been removed from Australia’s CO2 output as a direct result of the Carbon Tax). The answer will be little or none and certainly well below target - because the tax is the crappy part of the scheme (it costs the most and delivers the least).

      8. However, there may be a down-turn in CO2 because of the economic down-turn. If this occurs, the Climate Change Movement is dead because smart-asses will be pointing out that the only way to reduce CO2 is to ruin the economy.

      9. Right when the next election is due - and after all the above has happened - the Carbon Tax will be scheduled to get it’s first price increase. Mix that in with all of the above and you don’t get a happy outcome for Labor.

      So we have financial markets in turmoil, a down-turn in the global economy affecting Australia’s production, a Carbon Tax that won’t achieve it’s objective (IE: reducing carbon) and which can’t pay for itself - and compensation that is putting enormous pressure on the budget bottom line. Labor will forever seal themselves as financially incompetent and the next Federal Election will be a massacre of the NSW variety.

    • TimB says:

      09:05am | 11/11/11

      Excellent post.

      I really wish Australia didn’t have to suffer so badly in the meantime, just so those of us who can see this coming get an “I told you so moment”. But alas, this seems to the course that the ALP and it’s supporters are hell bent on taking.

      My one consolation is this sthat, just like in NSW this should see the ALP thrown from office for a long time to come. Hopefully by the time they look electable again, the adults will be back in charge of the party.

    • Larry says:

      09:35am | 11/11/11

      Big difference between a prediction and a wet dream!

    • Blind Freddy says:

      11:34am | 11/11/11

      A house of cards populated by strawmen and built on sand.

      “tell him he’s dreamin’”

    • Peter says:

      01:34pm | 11/11/11

      You forgot to factor in the possibility of a major meteor strike, Barnaby.

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      01:35pm | 11/11/11

      @ Perfect Storm:

      You have obviously put a lot of effort into your post and I think it deserves to be acknowledged at least but I’ll do more than that and I’ll attempt to address each point in your “storm”

      Point 1
      You’re right; none really notice $10 especially when most of it will be used up by extra charges at the shops and by utility companies. However, try telling people you’ll take $10 a week off them. I don’t think they’ll trust the shops and utility companies to reduce their prices.

      Point 2
      It’s an unknown but unlike the Lehman Bros disaster, people can see this one coming and their efforts will be designed to avoid a total collapse of the markets, etc. It remains an unknown but you could be right.

      Point 3
      I don’t think the effects on Australia will be such as to affect the ability of a government to fudge figures enough to show a very modest surplus. If it does get that bad, however, the people that count, that is, the swing voters will understand the reason for a deficit. Only rabid coalition supporters would demand a surplus or blame a government in a world financial crisis of major proportions. I daresay that most would want us to borrow at that stage in order to safeguard as many jobs as possible.

      Point 4
      You’re suggesting a $5 billion shortfall from the tax over three years I presume, as it is meant to raise about $11 billion in that time?  I have not heard of a shortfall and I cannot comment other than to say, I hope you did not get that from 2GB because if you did I would say BS!

      Point 5
      If the proverbial hits the fan, there is only one party that belongs in government. Like it or not, Labor goes back to its roots when a crisis hits. Their first order of business is to protect workers and they will borrow as much as necessary in order to keep people at work. They will do things like the BER, etc. Will all the propaganda against it, it still created enough jobs to see our unemployment not go into double digits.

      On the other hand, conservative parties’ main aim is to reduce costs for both private enterprise and government. They do by sacking people, reducing services and in general shrinking the economy. The economic and psychological pain is borne by those least able to do so and the recovery from that takes a lot longer.

      In closing, I hope as you should, that you’re wrong about the severity of the Euro zone issues and their effects on Australia. I understand your post is politically motivated but the negative tone of your post and the almost fervent wish for everything to go pear-shaped so that you can be proven right is something that has contributed to the latest swing in the polls, small as it is, towards the government. People are getting very tired after a year of gloom and doom stories from the coalition and their year of rage and rabid, sometimes irrational statements from them.

      Just something to think about because the storm might just blow in the other direction if the coalition is not careful

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      09:06am | 11/11/11

      I don’t mind pulling my weight and will even hop in and give you a hand to get to job done.

      But I am sick of being the bunny and doing ten mens jobs while they go off playing games and get rich.

      Australia contributes very little ‘so called’ carbon.

      The countries that do arn’t joining in the clean-up even though theirs is the problem.

      ‘Let’s be fair’ we are told. Our population is very small and our carbon output per capita is close to the top.

      Arr F*#K.——  This is giving me the shits!

      We are wasting our time writting these blogs. The a/holes with the power don’t listen.

      Do what YOU think best next election.——-  Write direct to your member.

      Too many self interested smartmouths and not enough representatives of the people in parliment.


      CARBON =  WE PAY

      AFGANISTAN ===  WE PAY

      REFUGEES (SO CALLED)  ==== WE PAY

      OIL COMPANIES SELF CONTROL ==== WE PAY

      PRIVATISATION :—

      QANTAS
      COMMONWEALTH BANK
      TELECOMMUNICATION
      AIRPORTS

      ====  WE PAY

      AND FOREIGNERS REAP (RAPE)

      WAKE UP AUSTRALIA

    • Micky K. says:

      09:36am | 11/11/11

      Come on Aussie, don’t you realize that Australia is going to single handily save the entire planet with these fine well thought-out measures. I am also all for the greens idea of 100% renewable’s to be implemented in the short term. In fact I started yesterday building a water wheel to power my home and intend on replacing my new car with a pony, but will I need to install seatbelts on my pony to make it roadworthy? Answers anyone?

    • nossy says:

      09:24am | 11/11/11

      Heres Mr 57% dissatisfaction polling himself telling us he SUPPORTS a Carbon Tax! What page of the Karma Sutra are ya up to now Tony - at bleast Position 42!  hhahahaah ohh how sweet it is.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12PN66IBoPs

    • RyaN says:

      10:19am | 11/11/11

      Hey nossy, what is comrade Gillards dissatisfaction polling?

    • thatmosis says:

      09:35am | 11/11/11

      MattB, I think you have Abbott and Joolia mixed up. Joolia is the one that breaks her promises to the people, remember “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead” must ring a bell somewhere in the dark recesses of your miniscule brain. As for Abbot unless you are a fortune teller of extroadinary powers and therefore have have won the all the Lotto games for the last couple of years how would you know what he will or wont do, oh thats right, your from the Left and never get anything wrong, like this present government, 50 policy failures and counting.

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      10:03am | 11/11/11

      @thatmosis

      Just a question:

      What if Abbott cannot or the 500 businesses being charged the tax don’t allowed him to hurt them by making the billions they will have invested in carbon credits worthless?

      There you would have a politician that promised a “blood oath” to repeal the tax and would not have delivered; what would you call him?

      Just out of interest. I am trying to get a handle on what standard you hold politicans to

    • B says:

      03:12pm | 13/11/11

      @Rubens Camejo

      I hold them to their word.  Tony Abbott cannot be judged on something he has not yet had a chance to do.  What if Tony manages to get elected and ends up a brilliant PM Ruben?  Would you change your definition of a GOOD politician then in hindsight?  Or do what all labor hacks do and defend the indefensible ALP?

    • Rick of the Dustbowl says:

      09:45am | 11/11/11

      Wake up you liberal losers there is no way T.A. will repeal this tax even if they take power at the next election they still have to deal with the senate and the greens who hold the balance of power.T.A. is full of sh@t.

    • GB says:

      02:05pm | 11/11/11

      @Dustbowl Rick. Ever heard of a double dissolution numb nuts? Trust me if Abbott wins in a landslide at the next election like all indicators are saying he will, he’ll have no hesitation in going to the GG and asking her/him to dissolve both houses.

    • john says:

      09:53am | 11/11/11

      @ Aussie Wazza,

      What??!!! you’ve just woken up that 50% foreign ownership is just a crock of crap, and everyone has played their part selling Australia out since the Keating/Hawke era LOL.

      Why? because of the $$$$$- they all got filthy rich.

      The rest of us now beg as Julia shows mercy & drip feeds the rest with welfare life support otherwise we’d be toast- probably worse than the USA.

      ....meanwhile gloating corporations like kloppers & other CEO’s with billion dollar record profits made from crown assets {land &sea; we all own} play gods with our lives.

    • Obob says:

      10:17am | 11/11/11

      Carbon Dioxide Emissions Up Sharply, Yet Temperatures Are Flat
      Doesn’t compute: more gasses, less warming
      Climate models FAIL AGAIN!
      This isn’t what was meant to happen:


      The US Department of Energy has just published its estimates of global carbon dioxide emissions for the year 2010, concluding emissions rose by 6% from 2009 to 2010. This constitutes the largest rise yet recorded and means global emissions are rising faster than any of the scenarios advanced by the UN IPCC in its 2007 report…

      In light of the 2010 data, global carbon dioxide emissions have risen by fully a third since the year 2001, yet global temperatures have not risen during the past decade.

      Global temperatures will have to start rising very rapidly, and very soon, for alarming temperature predictions to come true.

      And yet with each passing year, the predicted rapid rise in temperatures never occurs.

      Even if the US had completely eradicated all carbon dioxide emissions going back to the year 2001, this still would not have prevented a rise in global emissions during the past decade.

      And with US emissions already eliminated, we would be unilaterally suffering immensely negative economic and quality-of-life consequences of zero carbon dioxide emissions while other nations continued creating a record rise.

      Fortunately, no such self-imposed misery is necessary because real-world observations show that rising carbon dioxide levels are having only a minor impact on global temperatures.

    • PTom says:

      11:30am | 11/11/11

      “Carbon Dioxide Emissions Up Sharply, Yet Temperatures Are Flat
      Doesn’t compute: more gasses, less warming”
      What crap.

      “yet global temperatures have not risen during the past decade.”
      Really because BOM, BEST, NASA, Spencer and Christy all say warm has occured in the last decade.
      http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/temp-analysis-2009.html

      “And yet with each passing year, the predicted rapid rise in temperatures never occurs.”
      That is because you are looking for it to happen in months and years. When it comes to the earth it is compared in centuries and millenium, if you did that you would see the rise is quite rapid.

      “real-world observations show that rising carbon dioxide levels are having only a minor impact on global temperatures. “
      So you think 1 degree in 50 years is minor, you don’t have a good gasp of the topic then.

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      11:48am | 11/11/11

      Below, please see an extract from the Abbual report from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology:

      “Mean temperatures in 2010 were cooler than those for the previous eight years, with an average of 22.0 °C, +0.19 °C above the 1961 to 1990[1] average of 21.81 °C. Despite 2010 being cooler than recent years, the decade ending 2010 is now the hottest decade on record for Australia with an anomaly of +0.52 °C. This underscores that the warming of Australia’s climate continues, even though individual years may be cooler than other years.”

      This is the link:
      http://www.bom.gov.au/announcements/media_releases/climate/change/20110105.shtml

    • B says:

      03:16pm | 13/11/11

      @PTom and Ruben

      It is quite obvious from all your comments I have read that you two have absolutly no idea of Climate, Chemistry or Physics.  Anyone with even a VERY BASIC understanding of science can see how screwy this is.

      PTom.  It actually has been raising and falling over the centuries.  The warming has NOT SPED UP.  It is increasing at the same rate it has since the little ice age after the Medieval warming period.  Provide some evidence to support your claim that

      “When it comes to the earth it is compared in centuries and millenium, if you did that you would see the rise is quite rapid.”

      because it is absolute BS.

    • George says:

      10:18am | 11/11/11

      After introducing the recent carbon tax, Australia has now officially
      changed it’s nickname to “the not-so-lucky country”.

    • Richard says:

      10:19am | 11/11/11

      The Great Offsets Scam Will Be Much, Much Bigger In Future

      Gullible leftist/warmist greenies are just asking to be ripped off!

      There are widespread suspicions that Chinese and Korean firms have cynically created hydrofluorocarbon facilities in order to qualify for credits, which can generate twice as much income as selling the refrigerant.


      Most of the Liehard Government’s planned cuts to our emissions actually involves paying foreigners to cut their own.

      From 2020, we’ll be spending more than $3 billion a year on foreign carbon credits, rising to an astonishing $57 billion a year by 2050, according to Treasury modelling.

      If you think this is an invitation to be ripped off, then you won’t be surprised by this:

      An environmental group has accused China of climate blackmail after threats to vent powerful greenhouse gases if Europe cuts off carbon credits next year.

      The row over hydrofluorocarbon-23 offsets – which have a much greater warming effect than carbon dioxide and linger in the atmosphere for 200 years – has intensified before international climate negotiations in Durban this month.

      Since 2005, Chinese firms have received the bulk of the $6bn in carbon credits for the reduction of these gases, which are produced in the manufacturing of refrigerant chemicals. The money has mostly come from European firms that have bought the offsets under the clean development mechanism, but this source of funding will come to an end next year. The EU has banned HFC-23 offsets because they are inefficient: the value of credits is 70 times the cost of destroying HFC-23 gases.

      There are also widespread suspicions that Chinese and Korean firms have cynically created hydrofluorocarbon facilities in order to qualify for credits, which can generate twice as much income as selling the refrigerant.

      But Europe’s decision has angered Chinese officials responsible for administering the system, which has generated $1.3bn in tax revenues for the state.

      The China Clean Development Mechanism Fund warned last week that the loss of income would force HFC producers to cut costs. “If there’s no trading of [HFC-23] credits, they’ll stop incinerating the gases” said Xie Fei, the fund’s revenue management director.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/09/green-group-china-climate-blackmail?newsfeed=true


      The UN has been investigating this rort for some time:

      Under the UN’s Clean Development Mechanism (CDM), companies are rewarded with carbon offsets, called certified emissions reductions (CERs), for investing in clean energy projects in developing countries.

      Last summer, the U.N. panel that oversees the CDM stopped issuing CERs to HFC-23 projects while it investigated claims that some developers were intentionally boosting production of the gas in order to destroy it and earn more carbon offsets.


      Hmm.

      Making a greenhouse gas, just to be paid by the guilty West to stop it.

      I suspect we’ll hear a lot, lot more about such “cuts” to emissions.

    • Obob says:

      10:24am | 11/11/11

      China INCREASING Emission By 1000% Of Australia’s TOTAL By 2020

      All so, utterly, utterly pointless.

      Hopefully we won’t be buying indulgences … er … credits from Nigeria!

      Right now we emit around 600 million tonnes of CO2 a year.

      Have a guess how much China increased its emissions in 2010?

      Just under 700 million tonnes…. 

      In just one year, China increased its CO2 emissions by more than our ENTIRE EMISSIONS.

      And we of course are not intending to cut our emissions anywhere close to zero, or even significantly….

      We are aimed at cutting our emissions by just 5 per cent by 2020.

      As against China increasing its emissions by at least 1000 per cent of our total by 2020.

      Further we don’t actually intend to cut by even that 5 per cent. Treasury projects that we will be buying a big slice of our emission cuts from overseas.

      We will be paying billions to foreigners—hopefully not Nigerians—for a bit of paper which will authorise us to keep our lights on.


      Here we have a prime minister, a treasurer, and indeed an entire cabinet and party which are all utterly clueless about business in the real world.

      And that’s the ‘good news.’

      The bad news?

      The clueless are in coalition with people that really do want to deindustrialise Australia.

    • Rubens Camejo says:

      11:18am | 11/11/11

      @ Obob

      All the figures you quote are close to the mark, maybe, but they represent a picture that equates to a starting point for a discussion.

      Apart from your last few sentences, which are political dribble, your post highlights information people might not have at hand. Where your post fails in making your point is that you only tell half the story and suggests no solution to the problem.

      So, in order for us that read every post to be able to make sense of what you’re saying; here are some questions:

      Do you believe CO2 emissions caused by man present a problem to the planet’s climatic future?

      If not; stop reading.

      If so; do you understand that in order to do something about reducing emissions we, the whole world, needs to spend hundreds of $trillions to achieve that over the next 40 or so years?

      Do you understand that every industrialised country has to do its bit and that in due course all will?

      Do you understand that the world will eventually establish an international ETS in order to raise the $trillions?

      Do you understand that in due course countries with no clean energy capabilities will be forced to buy carbon credits from others and suffer the consequences of being penalised by a world market when selling their products to a world market?

      Do you understand that the end game is NOT to reduce CO2 in the atmosphere or even to cool the planet?

      Do you understand that the aim is to reduce the increase of our emissions from what they would be if we went about doing business as usual?

      If you propose no carbon tax and are still reading then I presume you are more inclined towards the coalition’s direct action which is in their policy memorandum, what do you know about it, the costs and where the money would come from? Please keep in mind that a wind turbine, a PV panel or even trees to absorb CO2 do not come free of charge.

      If you are still reading, do you propose we do nothing at all about emissions or climate change actions because we would not make a difference in your view?

    • Holly says:

      10:27am | 11/11/11

      I repeat Tony Abbott will be irrelevant by the middle of next year and all you people who hang on his every word, tho goodness knows why, will have to find another cause.  Business wants nothing of Tony Abbott - they can see only too well the damage he could inflict on the country.  For a while they thought he might be there for their bidding but he has proven just too flakey.  Expect to see turnaround in media attitude - their knives are already out for Tony Abbott.

      And no I am not some party hack - just like telling it as I see it and very happy to find some are discomfited by my comments.

    • We the people says:

      01:55pm | 11/11/11

      bwhahaha WE the “PEOPLE” don’t give a flying F@@@@K what you “BIG BUSINESS” or “MEDIA WHORES” say or DO!!  we “the PEOPLE” DO NOT WANT a CARBON TAX SCAM inflicted on us and we WILL stop it.  If the Liberals replace Tony Abbot, then they can expect a lot more than just the email/phone campaign that happened when Malcom traitor Turncoat, (who most of us would NEVER vote for!!), was about to pass the ETScam.  We will enmasse vote for the person/party who will repeal it, the only reason we all shifted to Tony Abbott and the LIberals is because he was against the carbon tax/ETS scam.  It is all you elite tossers that don’t get it. WE are MAD as HELL and we are NOT going to FORGET what the liars did, nor that Labor and the greens did not listen to the people, nor give us a voice.  They have NO mandate, they are supposed to represent the people not THEMSELVES!!! and they will see whether it is in 6 months or 2 years that we will not forget and will be waiting with very angry hands to VOTE THEM OUT!!

    • Max, of Rocky says:

      11:48am | 11/11/11

      Just goes to show how little control we have.

      How many active volcanoes? 

      “At present, there are about 600 volcanoes that have had known eruptions during recorded history, while about 50-70 volcanoes are active (erupting) each year. At any given time, there is an average of about 20 volcanoes that are erupting.”

      EXTRACT FROM:
      http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/volcanoes/faq/how_many_volcanoes.html 

      Add in the massive increases from China, India and Indonesia and reality starts to rear it’s ugly head.

      Always has been a political debacle.

      What our government is doing is absolute insanity to justify their existence.

      Will not be long before we end up no better than Italy
      (or any one of the PIGS)

      I am so sorry for our grandchildren,
      we have relinquished their futures to political monsters
      who only have the party and union power at heart.        :(

    • persephone says:

      11:50am | 11/11/11

      Wow, major Maths fail there.

      400 million tonnes is 400,000,000 tonnes.

      Divide that by 300,000 and you get 1333 days.

      So it take 1333 days - or over three years - for Eyjafjoell to emit as much CO2 as Australia does in one year.

      If it were a country, it would be responsible for 0.4% of the world’s emissions.

      Of course, scientists have factored in volcanic emissions in their calculations. And, of course, the problem isn’t a rise in volcanic emissions -which really are a part of the ‘natural cycle’ - but rises above the normal, expected CO2 output.

    • TimB says:

      12:32pm | 11/11/11

      Actually Perse the maths is correct. Obob has simply misquoted. For some reason he has added the words ‘in a year’. From the link itself, this is what was actually said:

      “Iceland’s Eyjafjoell volcano is emitting between 150,000 and 300,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) per day, a figure placing it in the same emissions league as a small-to-medium European economy, experts said on Monday.

      This one volcano is emitting each day up to a third of what all Australia does:

      From the context, Bolt is saying that the volcano is emitting a third of what Australia does in a similar timespan.

      Then Bolt follows with the Australian emissions per year total of 400 Million tonnes.

      300,000 x 365 = 109,500,000. A bit closer to a quarter than a third. Also Bolt does say ‘up to a third’. Maybe a tad misleading.

      But you’ve basically confirmed the figures. The volcano represents 0.4% of global emissions. We emit less than 1.5% of global emissions. So yes the volcano does emit between a quarter to a third of what we emit.

      Now given that we are only going to cut our emissions by 5%.....That one volcano has completely erased our contribution and then some.

      And as for you PTom:

      “Volcano CO2 and MAN-Made CO2 are two differnt things.”

      Who’s the nutter? CO2 is CO2. The planet doesn’t give a shit where it came from. There is no difference, no matter what you might like to pretend. BTW seeing as Persephone has corroborated the figures in Bolt’s post,. maybe you’d like to call her a nutter too.

      Or maybe next time you can actually do what Persephone did and argue with facts instead of uselessly screaming “ITS BOLT!, LALALALALA”

    • persephone says:

      02:15pm | 11/11/11

      Tim
      Obob’s statement was that ‘one volcano is emitting each day a third of what all Australia does in a year”.

      That’s clearly incorrect, and is what I was pointing out (having not bothered to read the Bolt article).

      The fact that Australia emits three times as much as the volcano and the volcano emits far more than some European countries points to our status as a big per capita emitter.

      Volcanic emissions are ‘natural’. and certainly beyond our control. Our emissions are largely not, and are certainly controllable.

      The planet as we know it can cope with volcanic emissions quite nicely. It can’t with emissions well above natural levels, without dramatic changes.

      (There’s also the fact that volcanoes emit other gases as well, which have a cooling effect which mitigates the CO2 effect, but that’s a different issue).

      So we’re talking about adding more CO2 into a system which is adapted to a lower amount of CO2 emissions.

      It’s a little like saying that, because we natually can cope with a small amount of arsenic in our natural diet, taking a few more spoonfuls in our coffee won’t hurt us.

    • PTom says:

      03:42pm | 11/11/11

      TimB,
      I know you love Bolt. you want the a long answer like persephone.

      OBob argument has been CO2 level in 2010 have increased.
      As I pointed out that was Man made levels have gone up which is the ones we can control. Btw don’t you find it interesting how man-made CO2 level went down in 2009.

      But what OBob, Bolt and you fail to understand are these eruption do not last long. In the case of iceland was about 1 month so that would be about 300,000 *30 = 9 Million tons in total.

      I make that about 2.25% of ONE of our year emission less then what we plan to cut by per year.

      http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/icelands-eyjafjoell-volcano-eruption-is-no-longer-active-says-geologist/story-e6frf7jx-1225870338464

      Man made mmission are 30,000 milllion tons in 2010 which is stilll far greater then one volcano with 9 million tons(0.03%)

    • B says:

      03:23pm | 13/11/11

      @persephone

      Ahh.  Human emmisions are natural.  We are an animal.  A natural being of this planet.  So if you want to get technical, Human Carbon Emissions ARE NATURAL.

      @PTOM

      Nice you discredit someone for not agreeing with your views.  We have countries like that.  They are called Dictatorships.  Maybe you would be more happier there.

    • Amber says:

      11:06am | 11/11/11

      Is the nurse Susan Boyle?

      And to Holly - most viable things will be irrelevant or extint more likely,  under the CO2 Tax

    • Anna C says:

      11:13am | 11/11/11

      God I am so over this topic. I don’t see the point in wasting time hypothesising about what may or may not happen in the future regarding the Carbon Tax? Both major parties have already declared their intentions. It’s now a waiting game until the next election.

    • splash says:

      12:12pm | 11/11/11

      Correct Anna,
      The next election will Finnally give Aussies a say on the carbon tax.
      A vote for the libs as Mandate to recind it, or vote labor and retain it.

      I am Sure that the greens and labor do not like the idea of the Aust. People deciding the Fate of this tax at the next Election.

      .But they have no choice as Australia is a democracy , which has been forgotten in this debate.  All wiil BOWDOWN to whatever is decided by the Australian Majority at the next election, even if it means for the carbon tax to be recinded.
      At the next election, Democracy and the WILL of the people will be the winner regardless of the rights and wrongs of this tax.

    • jb says:

      11:22am | 11/11/11

      At the end of the day the compensation will just get lost in the pay packet no one at all will register that extra $10.20 in their account each week.
      But mark my word come the end of the quarter when they are paying an extra $200 for electricity, rates, telephones and all the other utility bills the very people she is redistributing the wealth to will be up in arms. The only way this could work is if the compensation went straight to those utility bills and not directly to the consumer. This like all of Gilliars ideas will go the way of every other dumb idea she ever implemented. The funny thing the one that actually would have garnered public support and perhaps even given her at least a half mandate was the peoples assembly on the carbon price. Instead as the history has shown she jumped into bed with one man and made a mockery out of the actual relationship that should have mattered. Not the first time either…

    • TC says:

      11:26am | 11/11/11

      a) Gillard cynically promised there wouldn’t be a carbon tax 6 days before the election, saying she wanted community consensus on climate change action. Then when she broke her promise she did it so brazenly it beggared belief. She promised to waer out her shoe leather to convince Australians the carbon tax was needed, well how long did that last? 4 days? It’s pretty hard to sell a turd I suppose.
      b) the ETS is a scheme that will make traders wealthy, and people will make bets on the carbo price, distorting the market.
      c) Most of Australia’s decreases in emeissions will come from us paying other countries for permits. Rorting and rip-offs will result; as Belgium has discovered to the tune of 1.5 Billion dollars. By 2050 Australia will sending billions offshore every year while China and India and other emerging economies pollute at will. 
      d) the tax or price is meant to keep going up and up and up…. for it to REALLY work, the compensation musn’t keep going up at the same level.. Otherwise why bother with a price mechanism? The “compensation” is just a sweetener to get people on board before the real pain starts.
      e) The IPCC data modelling is proving inaccurate. Temperature increases are not rising as the modelling suggests, which indicates there are other factors in play regarding climate
      f) Canada and the US won’t join in a scheme. Canada has been very specific about this, in the US climate change is no longer a burning issue.  When was the last time barack mentioned it? he couldn’t get a cap’n'trade scheme through when the Democrats contolled both houses.
      g) No matter what China SAYS, its emissions continue to go up and up (9% last year, the increase figure dwarfs Australia’s entire annual output.) Meanwhile Labor politicians continue to sing China’s praises. That’s gonna grate on the swinging voters.
      h) Renewable energy schemes keep falling over, like they have in other countries, in the US 700 million taxpayer dollars have been lost on one scheme. Wind and solar energy is inefficient and there are many hidden environmental costs in producing renewable energy.
      i) Comparing the tax/ETS to a GST is stupid. The GST was a necessary reform to get people who avoided paying tax to at least pay 10%. The majority of the world has such a tax. Apples/oranges. And the ETS is not an “economic” reform. It distorts economics for a supposed environmental gain.
      j) Independent (and Treasury is NOT independent) modelling of our tax suggests the economic impact will be twice what the government says. Treasury has assumed other countries will enter the ETS scheme where all indicators are countries are backing away from carbon tax/ETS schemes.

    • Don King says:

      11:29am | 11/11/11

      We need a new and competent government NOW! Gillard and the ALP are the ultimate failures of Australia!

    • Amber says:

      11:39am | 11/11/11

      Obob!!!  - how much of our CO2 output is human exhaling? Don’t think Bob wouldn’t curb the population size if he could!

    • Watcher says:

      09:01am | 12/11/11

      I am waiting for the human fart tax, I am sure there are more humans than cows.

    • thatmosis says:

      12:11pm | 11/11/11

      Abbott has already warned them not to buy into this Carbon Credit fiasco and if they do they wont get reimbursed. Now if I were a company owner that knew that the government we almost have today was going to be booted out at the next election then I for one wouldnt fall for the trap of investing in useless carbon credits.
        You are assuming that you know what Abbott will do whereas we all know Joolias credentials in this area, lie to the people, almost get elected and bow to the pressure of minority groups time and time again.
        I am not going to answer for Abbot and no one can until such time as these things happen but i would except him to do what he says as he has seen the backlash that this present Claytons government has received by telling th electrorate lies upon lies.
        I hold most politicians except the Labor/Green/Independant Politicians to high standards. Labor Politicians are for the most part puppets of the Unions and therefore have no say in what they do or say, the Greens want all the power without the trouble of really running a country and the Independants went against their own electorates wishes and sided with Labor which predesposes them to having little or no standards whatsoever but self interest and not that of the country or its inhabitants. You could safely say that I expect Liberal/National politicians to have a great set of standards as opposed to those mentioned above and have yet to be proved wrong.  All the name calling and whatevers are useless except for the Laborphiles who get their kicks from this type of thing and it will not be just you and me or just the bloggers on this post but the whole of Australia that will be the judge of who they trust more, a government who has trampled over the majorities wishes to stay in power or a government who wants to do the right thing by all Australians. Simple.

    • PTom says:

      04:16pm | 11/11/11

      “Abbott has already warned them not to buy into this Carbon Credit “

      Lots if and butts in there for business to decide
      1)  The Australian people
      2) Gollum himself

      While it is certain that if business does not pay they willl breaking the law. Which means that Abbott is encourage companies to break the law.
      That is one Great future PM there.

      “a government who has trampled over the majorities wishes to stay in power or a government who wants to do the right thing by all Australians”
      Wow such a tough decision Labor or Liberal. hmm I think I will go with a Labor government who wants to do the right thing by all Australians.

      Just look what Liberals did with Iraq invasion, GST and workchoices.

    • Liberal Lover says:

      12:14pm | 11/11/11

      In the forthcoming election campaign the opposition will subject us to the mother of all fear campaigns regarding the imposition of the carbon tax. 

      This is of course the moral equivalent of a date rapist telling his victim that the experience wasn’t that bad and she certainly shouldn’t put herself through the trauma of an abortion.

      It might work.  The LNP might get away with it.  Alternatively they might spend a decade locked in opposition.

    • Yuri says:

      02:17pm | 11/11/11

      Interesting tactic; copy a paragraph from someone else’s post, whack it in the middle of your own post and pretend the result makes sense.

    • splash says:

      09:46pm | 11/11/11

      Wrong liberal Lover,
      The next Federal election will be a vote for the libs Mandate to recind the tax or vote lab. to retain it.

      Somehow i dont think the greens and labor are looking forward to this election Knowing that the Fate of the carbon tax Rests with the decision of the Australian people.
                      Now that there would be the greatest Fear.
                                      Dont you think.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      12:17pm | 11/11/11

      Just a couple of years ago an Australion business I worked with collapsed due to the incompetence and arrogance of one person (I won’t mention her gender or I’ll just be branded a sexist by every dyke reading this) and the owners who believed her claim that it was a conspiracy of the males ganging up against her.

      Any time a comment or complaint hit the absentee owners desk, regardless of the proof submitted we were told to Give her a go; get behind her.

      After a while it got to the point where all stopped complaining as it was to no avail. And the damage and its cause was so obvious that we were certain even the most lenient, tolerant owners could not avoid or ignore it; But .......

      EVERYTHING was obvious but the business that had run very successfully for over 110 years finally folded putting over 200 people out of work.

      At the ‘autopsy’ there was no hiding the facts; but too late. Nothing left but a decaying body.

      It almost sounds like I am narrating a story about Australia written 2020.

      The sad thing was that all was obvious; even the customers asked what was going on.

      But by flim flam and chicannery, lies and deception, she sang right up to when the ships mast sank beneath the waves.

      God save AUSTRALIA because the polis wont.

      We, the people own Australia. About time we took hold of the reins.

    • RyaN says:

      02:11pm | 11/11/11

      Or you could set up a company that gets Australian property owners to sign up to register their property no matter how large or small as a carbon sink. Thereby generating carbon credits in Australia from every part of our land that are then sold back to the big emitters, the surplus can be sold to China and India to emit more.
      Now there is a free business idea for some enterprising fella, plus it will completely negate the impact (and the point) of a carbon tax / ETS.

    • Holly says:

      01:36pm | 11/11/11

      The way members of the Business Council were talking on radio this morning I would say the majority are thankful for some certainty and obviously have no intention of taking any notice of Tony Abbott’s advice re carbon credits.

      Just to further illustrate my point about Tony Abbott’s economic flakiness - after his trip to Britain and a stern talking to from the British PM and Chancellor of the Exchequer, he has now backflipped and decided that maybe Australia should support the IMF - quite contrary to what he said last week in his criticism of the PM in his usual knee jerk, ill informed way.  There is no way he will be leader of opposition at next election and no way the next election will be a referendum on “Carbon Tax”. ( he’s already accepted he wont repeal two parts of the legislation any way - 2 and counting!)

    • Simon says:

      02:12pm | 11/11/11

      My money’s on Abbott. Fear trumps hope every time, especially with self interest behind it. Stuff the future.

    • GB says:

      02:36pm | 11/11/11

      You are so full of shit Holly. Only a full time Labor staffer could spout the bile you do. Good to see our taxpayer dollars hard at work again.

    • Holly says:

      03:09pm | 11/11/11

      GB I fail to see how quoting one article from the OZ and quoting attendees at the Business Council forum makes me full of bile.  Perhaps you are shocked that what you might consider previously reliable Tony Abbott supporters seem to have changed their tune.  And no I am not a Labor staffer.  I do however enjoy observing politics from afar.  Furthermore I live a gazillion miles from where one could buy a latte.  Just as well cos I could not afford one.

    • Ray says:

      03:41pm | 11/11/11

      Absolutely none of the modelling used by the Government can be believed. The Treasury modelling uses erroneous assumptions, one being that there will be international agreement to tax carbon. This has as much chance of happening as a cow jumping over the moon.

      The climate computer models used by the IPCC to project alarmist climate outcomes, are invalid, as they fail to represent the complexity of natural climate behaviour. Contrary to IPCC model projections, there has not been any statistically significant global warming since at least 1998, despite CO2 emissions continuing to increase.

      The author has been well and truly conned if he believes that electricity prices will rise by only 0.9% as predicted by the Treasury modelling, which he regards as “the best modelling”.  In the real world of the Australian economy, electricity prices are going to increase by at least 10%.

    • Wayne says:

      05:08pm | 13/11/11

      Not only that, what about when the tax increases over time. We will be well and truly screwed, and to those thinking they will be better off financially, think again. This reallocation of wealth by stealth will cost us all dearly. Where will the net revenue come from? Some of us will bear all the cost as the companies will pass it on in their prices.

    • GB says:

      03:48pm | 11/11/11

      @Holly. That and the 4 million other obscure anti-Abbott pieces you speculate, manipulate and outright bullshit about. Keep it up though. It’s amusing watching Labor rusted-ons clamber for every piece of diversionary information they can get their hands on.

    • Jacob says:

      06:12pm | 11/11/11

      Mark,

      “if all the people who claim they were swayed by Ms Gillard’s no-carbon-tax pledge before the election had actually been swayed, as their heartfelt betrayal suggests, she probably would have won with a majority in her own right”

      With respect, I think that you got this one the wrong way around -  if some the people who claim they were swayed by Ms Gillard’s no-carbon-tax pledge before the election had actually been swayed as their heartfelt betrayal suggests, Tonny Abbott probably would have won with a majority in his own right.

      Be that as hypothetical as it may,, it is not the number of people who say that they were swayed which is the issue; the issue is the number of people Ms Gillard (and Mr Swan for that matter) intended or hope to sway by the pledge.

    • Jordan says:

      06:22pm | 11/11/11

      Until Super D’ or any of Super D’s female family members are raped, they wont understand why the analogy isnt cool.  Rectal tearing,  bite marks, police questions etc.  So come on Super D’  find other ways to push peoples buttons.

    • Cameron says:

      08:26pm | 11/11/11

      Does that mean Australians need to be taxed on breathing to? maybe theyl release a policy where every year every Australian must pay a tax to breathe carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. How about it? :D

    • Cameron says:

      01:03am | 12/11/11

      lets take two examples of how our great carbon tax is affecting businesses…
      Lets compare the share price of two iconic Australian companies both before and after the carbon tax announcement.

      Blue Scope Steel

      Before /After Loss
      Share Price 16/12/10 09/11/11 in Value
      $2.31 $0.73 – 68.4%

      One Steel
      Before /After Loss
      Share Price 18/02/11 09/11/11 in Value
      $3.01 $1.00 – 67.0%

      Source :Commsec

      I fail to see how Australia can possibly benefit from the carbon tax. Especially when 10% of it is carted off to the UN!

    • Anjuli says:

      10:46am | 12/11/11

      It seems to me that this government is screwing the Australian tax payer every way it can. Not only with the carbon tax, now they have promised to kick in $5 billion to the emergency fund for Greece. So they can continue to retire at 50,does that make any sense to any one when her some here are working past 70.

    • thatmosis says:

      07:12pm | 12/11/11

      PTom= Loser. At least the Lib/Nats had the Guts to take the GST to the people and won whereas Joolia and her morons havent the intestinal fortitude as they know that 80% of people are against it.  What confidence can one put into a Government that wont go to the people with such a devisive policy, none. As for workchoices have a look at the Unions now and the amount of pain they are causing the people of Australia.  QANTAS springs to mind here, months of rolling strikes and almost strikes and the losers were the people of Australia until someone had the guts to take them on and they arent happy little chappies now. If this is the Government that you would vote for then go for it but you will be in the minority. As for IRAQ we awere bound and are still bound by treaties with the US to offer help in the time of conflict and thats what we did. While we are at it, hows the illegal immigrant problem going boyo, still arriving are they, the government certainly got that right, NOT. This Government would be flat out running a two ticket raffle and getting it right.

    • Richard says:

      12:52pm | 17/11/11

      Carbon Tax?  as a pensioner I look forwards to getting some benefit, as a thinker I know this tax will not change the weather, for there is only ONE who controls that…........ GOD.

 

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