Modern-day defenders of orthodox Christianity – of any religion with a supernatural element – face a host of challenges. Chief among them is the widespread assumption that science and religion are hopelessly incompatible.

God wuz 'ere

In his best-selling book The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins asserts that “religion is now completely superseded by science”. It’s a familiar line.  Religion, we’re told, is shadowy and value-laden – an exercise in “blind faith”.

And the Bible says that the Earth was made 6,000 years ago in the course of seven days. Anyone who believes that is crazy! These notions are deeply ingrained, but they are fallacious. And they distort the true beliefs of most Christians in Australia.

For a start, the accounts of Creation in the Book of Genesis cannot be read literally and were not intended by their authors to be read literally. The Bible is not a science textbook.

What the Bible teaches is that the Universe was conceived, and brought into being, by God – and that, ever since, it has been sustained and monitored by God.

In using the term “God” I am content to adopt Richard Dawkins’ own definition: “A supernatural creator that is … appropriate for us to worship”.

The Bible also teaches that Mankind (i.e., the species Homo sapiens) occupies a special place in the Universe. We are not – to borrow a phrase from Stephen Hawking – mere chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet. Rather, in the poetic language of the Eighth Psalm, we are “a little lower than the angels” and “crowned … with glory and honour”.

Dawkins said “Religion has been completely superseded by science”. Such statements ought never to be equated with statements of scientific fact. They are expressions of opinion. This point cannot be emphasised enough.

Most of the greatest scientists down the ages – giants such as Galileo, Kepler and Sir Isaac Newton – held radically different opinions, even if they based them on different facts.

Today there are countless cutting-edge scientists who believe in God, some extremely eminent men and women among them. To name just a couple: astronomer Allan Sandage, generally credited with being the first person accurately to estimate the age of the Universe, and biologist Francis S. Collins, Director of the Human Genome Project.

How can this be, if science and religion are so blatantly incompatible?

There’s a straightforward answer. Many of the discoveries of modern-day science point towards – rather than away from – God’s existence.  The theistic case, far from being arrant nonsense, is intellectually honest and reasonable. Provided it too is based on true facts.

The following propositions are generally accepted by a majority of scientists worldwide in the pertinent fields.

First, science itself is predicated on a key assumption: that there is an objective order underlying Nature, which is ascertainable and explicable. (This, by the way, is a profoundly theistic notion, traceable to St Augustine.)

Second, the Universe had a finite beginning, about 13.7 billion years ago (the so-called Big Bang).

Third, before the Big Bang, there was literally nothing. Shortly after the Big Bang (the “singularity”) there was something, viz., the gigantic quantities of matter and energy which constitute our still-expanding, cooling Universe.

Time itself also came into being at the Big Bang. (Tellingly, until the mid-1960s, the Big Bang theory was resisted by many scientists because of its obvious theological implications. Then the evidence for it became overwhelming.)

Fourth, there are four fundamental forces which govern the Universe: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. The absolute and relative strengths of these forces have remained the same (or virtually so) since the moment of the Big Bang.

Fifth, the values of the so-called Constants of Nature – pure numbers of huge practical significance, such as the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron (1/1836) – have also stayed the same throughout the history of the Universe.

Sixth, a crucial point, there could be no life anywhere in the Universe if the strength of any of the four forces of Nature were even slightly different. So too if the values of any of the Constants of Nature were not precisely as they are. Among many other things, the carbon out of which we are all made could not have been generated inside stars.

This is the so-called Goldilocks Enigma (the title of one of Paul Davies’ best books). The central concept is that, like Goldilocks’ porridge, the Universe is “just right” for life.

Davies’ book is replete with stunning examples. For instance, the ratio of the mass of the neutron to that of the proton is 1.00137841870. Without that slight deviation in weight (the neutron is about 0.1 per cent heavier), there would be no atoms, no chemistry, no life.

Let’s take stock. The six propositions stated above are, as I’ve said, relatively uncontroversial. And they have almost nothing to do with evolutionary biology, the keystone of many an atheist’s arch. So far, we’ve been in the realm of physics, chemistry and cosmology.

To turn, then, to evolutionary biology. Its ambit and significance are often over-stated by both sides.

The likes of Dawkins would have us believe that evolution provides a cast-iron refutation of every premise of theology. In the introduction to his book The Blind Watchmaker, Dawkins tipped his hand explicitly. He wrote that if he had lived before 1859 – when Darwin published On the Origin of Species – he could not imagine having been an atheist.

On the flipside, some well-meaning Christians are intimidated by people like Dawkins. They are tempted to contest established science, and quickly get out of their depth. There’s no need.

Point number one: Darwinian theory does not explain – nor purport to explain – the existence of life. It is concerned with the process of diversification of life once life exists.

The origin of life on Earth remains a near-total mystery. It seems fairly well-established that the first single-celled prokaryotes appeared about 3.85 million years ago. But where did they come from?  Exotic theories abound, but little can be said with confidence. All life on Earth is based on DNA, yet DNA itself is a staggeringly complex substance.

Point number two: Darwinian evolutionary theory is often invoked to explain how all life on Earth descended from one original “primitive” life-form. This is supposed to have happened by a steady process of natural selection acting upon slight, successive, random mutations of DNA occurring periodically in individual organisms.

Unquestionably, some biological change is caused that way. But whether – and, if so, how – such a process accounts for the rich diversity of all life on Earth is highly contentious in the relevant scientific communities. (See Professor Kim Sterelny’s excellent books Dawkins vs. Gould and What Is Biodiversity?)

Point number three: the uniquely human faculties of cognition and conscience are, to put it mildly, hard to explain in a purely Darwinian framework. Likewise religious faith, our uncanny sense of “self”, and free will.

Take free will. Only a very few die-hard determinists are prepared to assert that it’s an illusion. To the question: “Can any of us ever do anything other than what we end up doing?” their answer is, in substance, “No”.

Whatever the ambit of Darwinian theory may ultimately prove to be, one thing can be stated with certainty. Known evolutionary processes are – in and of themselves – another suggestive aspect of the Goldilocks Enigma. They “work”, but only just.

One of the twentieth century’s foremost atheists, Carl Sagan, summarised the position this way: Evolution works through mutation and selection… If the mutation rate is too high, we lose the inheritance of four billion years of painstaking evolution. If it is too low, new varieties will not be available to adapt to some future change in the environment. The evolution of life requires a more or less precise balance between mutation and selection. When that balance is achieved, remarkable adaptations occur.

To me, this is one of the most under-discussed aspects of the whole God Debate. It is another stunning example of fine-tuning in Nature.

What follows from all this? I venture the following:

The Universe might not have existed at all – but it does. Why? And how?

If the Universe is just a one-off fluke, it ought to be chaotic, featureless and dead. For, as British cosmologist John D. Barrow has observed, “there are so many more ways to be disorderly than to be orderly that one would have expected a universe pulled out of a hat at random to be a very asymmetrical and disorderly one”.

Very few scientists, whatever their religious views, contend that the Universe is a one-off fluke.

So the critical issue arises. It becomes necessary to account for the overwhelming appearance of design in the Universe – in the laws of physics, chemistry and biology, to say nothing of other phenomena there’s been insufficient space to touch upon here.

It’s also necessary to account for the uniqueness of Mankind as a sentient, conscience-possessing species, capable of mulling over the deepest questions of ethics and philosophy. To date, only two logical possibilities have been advanced to explain this state of affairs:

The first is that our Universe is one of many, many gazillions of other universes – perhaps an infinite number of them. Each operates under slightly different laws. If that is so, the argument runs, the ordered complexity of our Universe should not seem surprising to us. We just happen to be in one of the few universes (perhaps the only one) whose laws sustain life.

This is the so-called Multiverse Theory. It is the fallback position of, among others, Richard Dawkins. Does it convince you?

It doesn’t convince me, for a number of reasons. For one thing, it flouts Occam’s razor, otherwise known as “the principle of parsinomy”.  This is the idea that, in framing an explanation for any given phenomenon, all hypotheses and assumptions which are not strictly necessary should be eliminated.  In short: keep it simple, stupid!

Atheists are fond of invoking Occam’s razor for their own purposes, but many seem unaware of its relevance to this critical issue.

Dawkins claims in The God Delusion that the Multiverse Theory, for which there is no objective evidence at all, is “simple” and only “apparently extravagant” – “if each one of those universes is simple in its fundamental laws”.

But that is a gigantic “if” (how could anyone in our Universe ever possibly know?), and in any case begs the question where the fundamental laws of all of those gazillions of other universes came from – a question that, on Dawkins’ thesis, must necessarily have a naturalistic answer.

It’s hard to see how any such naturalistic answer could reasonably be described as simple. According to some variants of the Multiverse Theory, many or even most of the universes in it must be fakes; you and I may well be “brains in a vat”, a la The Matrix.

If the number of universes is infinite, there must also exist an infinite number of “freak observers”, intelligent beings like us who strictly speaking ought not to exist, according to the laws of the relevant universe, but do! You and I could be such freak observers, who only imagine that we perceive “reality”.

To borrow a favourite expression of my mother’s: it all sounds like a load of old codswallop.

That brings me to the other possible explanation for the organised complexity of the Universe. It’s the one which has been instinctively favoured by billions of people down the centuries: the Universe must have been created, with Mankind in view, by a supernatural being of unfathomable wisdom and power. To wit: God.

In the words of the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah:

He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

Roy Williams is a writer for the Bible Society of Australia’s King James Version 400th Anniversary celebrations.

438 comments

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    • Erick says:

      06:36am | 18/07/11

      I’m a huge fan of the multiverse theory myself. Also of the Strong Anthropic Theory.

      Also, it’s a bit rich for the author to invoke the principle of parsimony of hypotheses when his own hypothesis involves adding a gratuitous, uncaused omniscient and omnipotent being to whatever theory of the universe we already have.

    • Mahhrat says:

      08:27am | 18/07/11

      @Erick, yeah, I live the multiverse too.

      I also like the Objectivist’s view on God.  God is defined as a supernatural entity.  If we accept Plato’s construct, that A=A, then God is simply a natural entity that has abilities we are yet to be able to explain - much as we have abilities today that would seem magical to people even 200 years ago!

      It’s quite simple - if “God” exists, then he is some kind of alien entity with vastly superior ability to manipulate matter than we currently have.  To state that he is “Unknowable” is patently defeatist, because it supposes that there is a limit to what the human race can do.

      I’m not quite that pessimistic.

    • Tubesteak says:

      08:40am | 18/07/11

      I have to agree with the multiverse theory, too.

      I don’t think we can say there was “nothing” before the Big Bang. I believe there are multiple universes out there that formed in a similar fashion and continue to be formed. Our time started with our Big Bang.

      I would love to be around when we fully understand this, but, unfortunately, that won’t be the case. It will be eons before we fully discover the nature of life, the universe and everything (not 42).

    • Expat Ozzie says:

      09:13am | 18/07/11

      Erick: I agree with you on this entirely. I to am a huge fan of the multiverse theory. It is basically premised on probability and permutation. For this is far more realistic then the idea of an all knowing creator. The author seems to think his above points support his stance, they merely indicate we still have much to learn, in no way do they support the existence of a God of any form.

      As an aside Occum’s razor does not remove the multiverse theory as he asserts. The theory is a natural extension of many of the authors previous points.

      Mahhrat: I’m quite fond of the idea, “much as we have abilities today that would seem magical to people even 200 years ago”. Many of the gadgets we use and take for granted today fall well into this category. If you were to ask my grandfather he would tell you there’s no need to go back 200 years he’s confused enough by credit cards and the internet!

    • trentyn says:

      10:10am | 18/07/11

      I see no reason why “natural” evolution is any more likely than “guided” evolution (or vice versa for that matter), particularly in a multiverse scenario.

      Personally I am quite happy thinking that all our subconciousnesses live in a pool not unlike a changeling hivemind from star trek. I am very aware that this in many ways is concurrent with the “made in my image” and “trinity”, and I am cool with that. and dont start me on luck/fate; we subconciously communicate within the pool, if things dont go our way, it’s because someone else wanted it more.

      now your author though:
      Roy Williams, 47, is the author of God, Actually - a reasoned defence of religion in general and Christianity in particular.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      11:16am | 18/07/11

      Before dismissing the existence of (G/g)od(s) it is necessary to define the god that one is dismissing.

      I personally, I’m a fan of the holographic (holomovement - because of time) universe as proposed by physicist David Bohm. And in so far as the holographic model implies a singular holistic form to the universe - and that the “parts” of a hologram are representative of the whole and vice versa - it does imply that the reductionist view of reality proposed by people like Dawkins concerning the existence “G/g)od(s) is simplistic,  minimalist and flawed.

      P.S. There is even room in the holomovement for a multiverse (or should that be multi-multiverses?).

      Religion? Well that’s another matter . . .

    • Chris L says:

      11:37am | 18/07/11

      Also, in regards to the Big Bang being a fluke event, current theories are starting to trend toward multiple Big Bangs:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/may/05/spaceexploration.universe

      I recall reading an article last year that explains emanating circles of radiation that could potentially point to previous Big Bangs, so it’s not as flukish as it’s being made out to be.

      Also, if you’re a fan of Multiverse theory you may want to look into String theory. Some versions of this tend to support multiple dimensions. Apparently it could explain how gravitons are the only energy that don’t have the same uniform strength as all other types.

      Another point is the “fundamental forces which govern the universe” wouldn’t mean much if some deity could defy them to perform miracles. Indeed, this factor would point towards the idea of a potential creator of the human race being an advanced extra terrestrial, quite observable and knowable in time.

    • atthepub says:

      06:47am | 18/07/11

      Scientist claim to know 4% of all there is to know.
      Say no more.

    • Seth Brundle says:

      12:43pm | 18/07/11

      They know how to avoid posting the same comment twice…

    • winston says:

      05:18pm | 18/07/11

      It’s pretty simple, the Universe is infinite and, as such, it has infinite possibilities.  We simply exist, in one insignificant corner of one incarnation of one of those infinite possibilities, because it just happened to have the right mix of forces and chemicals.

    • atthepub says:

      05:56pm | 18/07/11

      And if is it wasn’t God who hung all our planets and stars in space, then who?

    • mel says:

      06:22pm | 18/07/11

      atthepub, let me guess…Is it gravity?

    • atthepub says:

      07:07pm | 18/07/11

      I dunno Mel. Should I believe anything anyone says if they clearly state that they haven’t a clue about 96% of their particular discipline?

    • mel says:

      08:28pm | 18/07/11

      If you really shouldn’t believe anyone who know only 4% of their subject matter, then you should be giving all theological speculation like this article and all the other ludicrous apologetics we have had to suffer on this website a miss too, given theologians say that the true nature of a god is more or less unknowable to our puny minds. At least we agree that theology is pretty much clap-trap!

    • atthepub says:

      09:14pm | 18/07/11

      I like the idea of God hanging our stars and planets in open space and holding the waves back. It tickles me to think that it is God who makes the waves jump and roll. Are you trying to burst my bibble?

    • mel says:

      09:57pm | 18/07/11

      Whether I burst your bibble, bubble or bible is up to you, of course. Certainly you lack consistency: you find yourself disturbed by scientists knowing only 4% of the universe but you willingly accept all that theological rubbish written by people who know even less about god (and wave mechanics).

    • atthepub says:

      06:04am | 19/07/11

      What is there not to be disturbed about Mel if a ‘scientific mind’ now is postulating that our universe was created and is nurtured by invisible pink unicorns?

    • mel says:

      01:07pm | 19/07/11

      What’s wrong with invisible pink unicorns? There is as much proof for them as there is for your wave-forming god! If you don’t believe that, try to disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns and prove the existence of your god.

    • atthepub says:

      03:56pm | 19/07/11

      Mel, as much as that no-one will be able to disproof your ‘scientific imagining’ of invisible pink unicorns that is exactly how much no-one will be able to disproof that God stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. That he hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. Or that he bindeth the floods from overflowing; and the thing that is hid bringeth he forth to light.

      I believe that scientists are as much entitled to their pink invisible unicorns as others are entitled to their history and beliefs.
      Is called live and let live.

    • mel says:

      01:53pm | 20/07/11

      So you state that there’s no proof for god. So how does that stand with your problem about scientists knowing supposedly only 4% of the universe?

      Or are you admitting that scientists know more about the world than you do about your god?

    • atthepub says:

      09:04pm | 23/07/11

      For a person who seems to believe in science you make very unscientific statements Mel. I did not say that there is no proof for God, I said that you cannot disproof that he stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. That he hath compassed the waters with bounds and so on.

      I have no problem with the fact that science knows so very little about anything at all either. I’m simply amused that a person like Roy, clearly well intended, attempts to use such a limited discipline as science, to make any point at all in relation to Omniscience .

    • mel says:

      09:10am | 24/07/11

      The point of my obviously poorly argued comments was to show that while you have little evidence or knowledge for this god thing you keep bringing up, you seem quite willing to believe in that, but you are more than willing to denigrate scientists who know more about the world than you do about your god.

      When confronted by the hypocrisy, you then do a bit of hand waving and start saying stuff like “to each his own” or “live and let live” or treat it all as a joke and find it “amusing”.You certainly seem to lack the courage of your convictions or your logic. If you believe scientists don’t know what they are talking about, then you’ll have to admit that neither does anyone who talks about gods. Or, you should start giving scientists more credit.

    • atthepub says:

      11:08am | 24/07/11

      Mel, you are assuming that I have little knowledge or evidence about my God. You have no proof of that. It is just a wild statement made by you.

      You state that I denigrate scientists whilst all I have done is repeated what scientists tell me and that is that they only have ‘proven knowledge’  of about 4% of their chosen field. If anyone is denigrating here, it is not me, I am simply repeating their own words.

      Another assumption you make is that scientists know more about the world than I do about my God. Where is your proof for that?

      Basically you continue to show me that people who believe in science feel justified to make bold faced claims based merely on their assumptions and that is exactly why science doesn’t do much for me.

    • mel says:

      03:53pm | 24/07/11

      Atthepub, you’ve been avoiding giving specific answers so I have had to make assumptions, based on the usual christian ideology. So let’s get back to basics then, and see if you will actually answer some questions. You say that scientists say they only know 4% of the universe and you say why “should I believe anything anyone says if they clearly state that they haven’t a clue about 96% of their particular discipline”. So try not to duck the question this time: how much do you know about your god, creator of the universe with the supposed magical wave of a hand? Is it 5%, 20%, 100%? The issue is, of course, that as soon as you say you know a certain percentage about something, then some limits are defined. But if a god is beyond the limits of our world, how can you know anything at all? So, tell us, how much do you know about your god, percentage-wise? We will be interested to know.

    • atthepub says:

      02:10pm | 25/07/11

      How well does any of us ever know anyone Mel? How well do we know our spouse, our children, siblings etc.? Could you put that in a percentage?

      This I do know. When my car was totaled when some loony drove into me at a traffic light, my God was there. When the oil slick on the road caused my car to slide towards the ravine yet I mysteriously ended up against the only little bit of barrier, my God steered my car whilst he held my hand. As he did when my appendix ruptured and the doctors wouldn’t operate due to septicemia but instead pumped me full with antibiotics to which I was allergic. On all these occasions my God was there and it was him rather than men or science or gravity that kept me on this earth.
      So this I know, he’s there for me when I need him. He’s kept me alive more than once. That’s good enough for me to believe in him rather than ‘gravity’ which would have sent me down a ravine.

    • mel says:

      10:29am | 26/07/11

      So once again, you dodge the question. You bag scientists for supposedly stating that they know a small percentage of the universe, but you can’t even work out what you know about your god. At least the scientists are honest in their appraisal of their work.

      And here’s another question for you to dodge: how do you know it was your god who kept you alive more than once? How do you know it wasn’t invisible pink unicorns? Or Zeus, Shiva, or the Rainbow Serpent? They all do good work. Or is it just coincidence and ‘luck’?

    • Craig says:

      06:25am | 26/09/11

      Mel,

      I worry far more about people who claim to know 100% about what there is to know.

      Such as those who believe in God.

    • atthepub says:

      06:47am | 18/07/11

      Scientist claim to know 4% of all there is to know.
      Say no more.

    • Anubis says:

      09:25am | 18/07/11

      but 100% of climate science

    • Tedd says:

      11:44am | 18/07/11

      Anubis,
      What scientists claim to know 100% of climate science?

      Science is a moving paradigm - current knowledge used to develop hypotheses and then to develop methods of testing them.

    • atthepub says:

      05:57pm | 18/07/11

      And if it isn’t God keeping the waves back, then who?

    • mel says:

      06:24pm | 18/07/11

      atthepub, let me guess again…Is it gravity?

      Maybe you are a worshipper of gravity? If so, can you explain what gravity is?

    • atthepub says:

      06:58pm | 18/07/11

      I dunno. How can we be sure? If scientists, by their own admission, only know 4% of all there is to know .. how can we be sure that what they tell us about gravity is true? Here on earth they say with gravity everything falls to the ground and in space it makes stuff hang?  I dunno ..

    • mel says:

      08:40pm | 18/07/11

      Finally, atthepub, things are sinking in! We actually have no real idea about what gravity is, but we can see that it makes things happen. Scientists, bless their little cotton socks, are trying to work out what happens in that area (and all sorts of other varied and interesting fields too).

      Our knowledge of gravity is, of course, very different to our knowledge of ‘god’: like gravity, we have no idea about what god really is, but unlike gravity, we have absolutely no proof that god makes things happen. We do with gravity.

      Surely it’s better to trust scientists who (according to you) know only 4% of what there is to know, than trust religious types and theologians who know absolutely nothing. You know it makes sense!

    • atthepub says:

      08:55pm | 18/07/11

      You know Mel, if gravity makes the waves stop at ‘the edge’ and presumably makes waves fall down also, then what makes the waves go up? Can only be God .. no?

    • mel says:

      09:05pm | 18/07/11

      Atthepub, I think you are confusing hydraulics with god. Are these simple examples of wave mechanics what you use when you are trying to convince people that there is a god? I’d try another tack if I was you.

    • atthepub says:

      09:33pm | 18/07/11

      No 4% is not me, is quoted from science website some where. Something to do with elements ordinary (baryonic) matter such as protons and neutrons (as well as electrons) and 73% of the universe being dark energy, 23% dark matter and only 4%  visible baryonic matter suh as stars, planets and living beings. And dark matter not as yet having been detected in a particle physics detector, and the nature of the dark energy not yet being understood. All that kinda stuff.

      Imagining God arrange all the stars is much more fun.

    • mel says:

      10:05pm | 18/07/11

      Ah, so it has little to do with science or theology, but about fun! So why not make it even more fun by imagining the universe was created and is nurtured by invisible pink unicorns. They’re pink and they’re invisible! What could be cuter or more fun? And they have never gone around killing people like that stupid evil christian god. Isn’t that really wonderful?

    • atthepub says:

      05:54am | 19/07/11

      Whatever turns you on Mel.

      Maybe my point is that science blatantly states that they haven’t a clue other than what they hypothesized, postulate, theorise, assume, estimate, infer and so on on 96% of their discipline. And all this postulating is based on the 4% of ‘knowledge’ they claim to have.

      I just figure that you need an awful lot of faith to believe in a discipline like that.

      But whatever turns you on is fine by me.

    • Ando says:

      11:08am | 19/07/11

      Atthe pub,

      Scientists started off knowing zero and now know 4%. That is pretty good considering the complexity of the universe. Religion at one stage had explanations for many things when the human race was a bit more clueless. Since then the things that need religion to explain them are reducing. Looks like the scientists are at least heading in the right direction

    • M. says:

      11:19am | 19/07/11

      @atthepub - an interesting point here is that ‘scientists’ have (modestly I must say) declared that after all their testing, theories, claims, enscriptions of walls and published books etc etc etc over the last how many hundreds of thousands of years and different civilisations (some which clearly pre date any modern day theology), they only know 4% of all there is to know…...Religious folk however - base all their theories, claims and demands on one book…..written about 1000 years ago…so if ‘scientists’ only know 4% - what fraction of a percentage do those of religious faiths know i wonder???? Just putting it out there…

    • mel says:

      01:12pm | 19/07/11

      Atthepub, you still haven’t addressed the fact that you berate scientists for knowing only 4% of the universe but you seem to accept the advice of theologians that know even less about their gods. Why are you so hypocritical?

    • atthepub says:

      03:38pm | 19/07/11

      Not really that keen on theologians myself Mel. Don’t understand the problems people have with an historical document such as the bible however. What is there to agree or disagree with some one else’s history? It is just the historical account of the Jewish people, who am I to disagree with that? Let it be.

      If M., one however chooses to believe people who claim to know very very little (less than 5%) about their discipline and yet postulate, theorise, assume, estimate and infer at great expense, endlessly about something which is within their discipline which they know nothing about such as dark energy and dark matter; that I find a little disconcerting.

    • M. says:

      04:12pm | 19/07/11

      Hahaha! oh the Hypocrisy! Sorry atthepub….but that is exactly the problem most people have with people of religious faith…...they claim to know everything and never consider they could be wrong….people of science admit they know very little…but strive to find the answers…...remember the bible may have some historical fact contained within it….it is only natural…..but note…it is just a book…one written a thousand years ago (give or take)....by men in power seeking to keep that power….

      When the next meteor strikes earth and wipes humans off the face of the planet…the next civilisation will (eventually)  find a charred version of the Lord of the Rings, build churches worshipping Frodo - the ” great ring bearer”.....and insist that everything contained in the book is fact….

    • RodB says:

      11:38am | 20/07/11

      athepub and Mel, thank you both for a great read. This is how these matters should be discussed - respectfully and with joy. Wish there was more of it. (incidentally imho Mel is on the right track!)

    • mel says:

      01:24pm | 20/07/11

      Cheers, RodB!

      Atthepub, the question is whether the bible is actually an accurate record of the Jewish peoples. The story of Exodus is an example. There are no Egyptian records of a large Jewish population in the country, or an exodus of such a group. There’s no record of plagues, nor a skerrick of any archaeological remains in the Sinai peninsula that relate to a group numbering in the thousands if not hundreds of thousands wandering about the Sinai for 40 years. The Egyptians kept lots of records, but there’s nothing mentioned at all. Maybe all records of that period have vanished (and what’s the date of Exodus exactly?) but the most damning point is the lack of material in the Sinai. The remains of hearths, shelters, broken pottery for a group that size over that length of time would not disappear as literary evidence might. The remains might get kicked about a bit, but it would stay there. And there’s nothing, nothing at all.

      Two Israeli archaeologists , Finkelstein and Silberman, believe that the ‘early’ books of the bible were written quite late (seventh or sixth century) as an attempt to provide Israel with a heroic past, the supposed Egyptian Captivity parallelling their more recent ‘Babylonian Captivity’. Their book looks at the archaeological evidence rather than just relying on the bible for history. It’s an interesting read.

      I’m concerned, however, that still you belittle those poor old scientists, but accept all that god chatter from people (whether you call them theologians, priests, pastors, religious, pious types doesn’t matter) who know even less about their subject. Why are you so hypocritical?

      Or are you saying that your study of an old book has let you know more about the gods than scientists do about the world (ie, 4%)? Please enlighten us. What percentage of knowledge do you have about god that makes you trust your instincts more than those poor scientists?

    • atthepub says:

      07:07pm | 23/07/11

      Is apples and pears Mel.
      Why would I disbelief the history of a people? The book of Numbers consists of around 36 chapters of the numbers of Israelites which traveled through the desert; their names, where they traveled to and from, their ages and so on. To suggest that this was made up is ludicrous.
      No more ludicrous however than believing in a discipline which clearly admits not to have a clue.

      It is apples and pears because even though there is solid proof of the history of the Jewish people and there is none whatsoever about the legitimacy of science .. to believe in science one has to activate ones (albeit limited) intellect. God can only be experienced by people with a beating heart and pulse. Therein lies the difference .. apples and pears.

      But each to their own. And if you are happy in the name of science to be conjuring up and believing in the dichotomy of pink invisible unicorns, that’s totally cool by me.

    • mel says:

      09:20am | 24/07/11

      Atthepub, so you believe everything you read? OMG (said ironically, of course)! The problem is that for Exodus, there is no solid proof: you should stoop that hand waving to distract people from the point that you do not have hard evidence.

      Science is also done by people with “a beating heart and pulse”, if you haven’t noticed, and they have evidence too. They’re good like that, those scientists.

      Once again, I have to ask, how do you know the world wasn’t created by invisible pink unicorns, or Zeus, or Shiva, or even the Rainbow Serpent but your version of a deity? How do you prove it?

    • atthepub says:

      10:50am | 24/07/11

      How do you prove your version Mel? It all comes down to faith and belief in the end and what do you place it in?

      I am anything but flippant when I say: each to their own. Praise God we all have freedom of choice and I respect yours as much as I respect my own.

      To me there is no right or wrong, just your version of the truth and my version of the truth. To me these versions are equally valid. Your version is valid to you and my version is valid to me and that’s just fine.

    • mel says:

      04:12pm | 24/07/11

      I really don’t have a version of how the universe was created as I’m in no way up with the evidence. It’s all a little too much for a humble, ignorant chap like me. So what evidence do you have to show that your version of a god made the universe, and not anyone else’s version, or, heaven forfend, that it all occurred without a guiding hand?

      Now if, as you say, all versions are equally valid, why chose the one you did? What evidence convinced you that your version is better, or more truthful, than the others? (Nothing is greater than invisible pink unicorns of course, proven in the Middle Ages by St Anselm’s ontological proof of invisible pink unicorns, so I don’t know why you have chosen an inferior version of the truth.)

    • atthepub says:

      02:26pm | 25/07/11

      See Mel, whilst I’m being nice and allow you your version of the truth, you respond with being antagonistic and call my version inferior.

      If you want evidence .. I am living evidence that God hears prayer. I won’t bore you with my tales of near deaths. But there’s not a shadow of doubt in my mind about the presence and goodness of my God. He exists for me one hundred thousand percent for real.

      I accept that you haven’t lived through my experiences and therefore have a different outlook on life. That’s why I accept that your version of the truth works for you.
      Why I believe my version to be superior for me is because my God has kept me alive more than once. No people nor science coming to the rescue, just him and I. And according to all earthly laws I was on the way out a number of times and yet my prayers were answered and I get to spend more time with my loved ones. Beats science Mel. According to science I would have been gone years ago and yet here I am annoying you .. ah God is good.

    • mel says:

      10:59am | 26/07/11

      Since this comment pretty much replicates the one above, I’ll ask the same questions.

      How do you know it was your god who kept you alive more than once? How do you know it wasn’t invisible pink unicorns? Or Zeus, Shiva, or the Rainbow Serpent? They all do good work.

      Or, more likely, was it just coincidence and ‘luck’? Every study into the efficacy of prayer shows that it doesn’t work.

    • Mayday says:

      06:51am | 18/07/11

      If Dawkins claim is a gigantic if then yours is well summed up by your mother, codswallop.

    • acotrel: says:

      07:15am | 18/07/11

      There has been an experiment conducted in which carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen in a vessel were subjected to static electricity.  The result was that a simple amino acid was formed - the basic building block of life! Did God make the static electricity when earth had no life on it?

    • MarK says:

      09:06am | 18/07/11

      Carbon?

      OMFG did you say carbon? They used a pollutant and taxable substance as a building block of life.

      WTF!!!????

      Hold the phones….can this be true…..OMG we are MUTANTS I tells yah. Full of pollutants. 

      RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

    • Willie Mac says:

      01:52pm | 18/07/11

      Poor MarK, obviously didn’t take chemistry in school

    • Mick says:

      02:02pm | 18/07/11

      Any proteins form?  Of course not, because even if they ran the experiment for 4.5 billion years the probability of a protein forming is almost non existent.

    • Chris L says:

      02:30pm | 18/07/11

      Proteins are formed from amino acids, Mick. You’re trying to put the cart before the horse.

    • MarK says:

      03:14pm | 18/07/11

      People making serious noises from my post need to learn to live a little.

      Gawd….is that contextual to the story?

    • downtown dave says:

      07:18am | 18/07/11

      The Bible doesn’t say the earth was created 6,000 years ago.  The Bible says man fell about 6,000 years ago.  We’re not told how much time elapsed between verse 1 and 2 of Genesis chapter 1, and we’re not told how much time lapsed between the time God created Adam and Eve and the fall.  Nothing was corrupt until the fall.  Also, the Bood of Genesis is literal.  To take it in a non-literal sense is to rob it of its message: sin and the need for atonement.  And as for atheists:  God has given proof of Himself to you.

    • Expat Ozzie says:

      09:30am | 18/07/11

      “And as for atheists:  God has given proof of Himself to you” No he hasn’t downtown dave, far from it.

    • SimpleSimon says:

      10:04am | 18/07/11

      To take the Book of Genesis literally is to be intentionally ignorant. There is mountains of evidence as to why “Adam and Eve” never existed in the context of the Bible, and no evidence whatsoever that they did. To disregard all that evidence because “the Bible says so” is idiotic. To take Genesis metaphorically, you are left with a reasonable story of morality, much like a lot of the Old Testament. So why would you want to take it literally?

      Genesis is a story put together to provide some sort of explanation, albeit metaphorically, of the origination of the universe, mankind, and the relationship between man and “God”. It is NOT a documented account of actual events.

    • tren says:

      10:46am | 18/07/11

      @simplesimon

      you could have had the same effect with your comment by swapping “genesis” with “the new testament” or “Harry Potter” and “adam and eve” with “jesus and john the baptist” or “harry and someone else from that fiction”

      This is not to say that the bible is a work of fiction, just that your comment adds no value

    • bella starkey says:

      11:16am | 18/07/11

      “And as for atheists:  God has given proof of Himself to you. “

      I missed it, can you get him to do it again?

    • Luke says:

      11:27am | 18/07/11

      Simple Simon, if I can take the Book of Genesis as metaphor, can I go bang my mother? That’s where the incest rules are, but according to you it’s all just a big moral tale.

      Have you got kids Simon? Will you tell them the story of Noah, and how his daughters got his drunk and then had sex with him to propogate the human race? Where is the shiny, happy metaphor in that little doozy? Please tell, I am so eager to learn.

    • Chris L says:

      11:42am | 18/07/11

      @Luke, our values have advanced a lot since those primitive times. I suspect the Abrahamic religions did reflect the morals of the ancient world and probably served an important function in society back then.

      Of course when we look at the sciptures with a modern eye we see much to be horrified by. I’m certainly not an advocate of religion, but I do think Simple Simon made a decent point and doesn’t deserve to be ridiculed for it.

    • Luke says:

      12:04pm | 18/07/11

      Chris L, Simon’s quote is “To take Genesis metaphorically, you are left with a reasonable story of morality, much like a lot of the Old Testament.”

      I ask you, in all seriousness, what is the moral behind the story of Noah and his daughters? Or does the word ‘reasonable’ imply the phrase ‘unless it’s counter to my argument’?

      Taking it further, if I look at the Old Testament as metaphor, then why do people follow the ten commandments? I realise that the words of Jesus (that we should treat each other kindly) are analogous to a few of the big 10, but what about carven images and following ‘false gods’? If I start thinking the OT is a long Aesop tale, a lot of the rules Christians live by simply disappear.

    • ZeJerman says:

      12:17pm | 18/07/11

      @downtown dave:
      I would like to start off by saying that i am a Christian, Anglican to be exact, and that your statement about the old testiment being taken literally is completely ridiculous!
      There is a message there but there is also a message in the 3 little pigs and everyother story like that.
      For its time it may have been able to be taken litreally but not any more, darwins theory of evolutions destroyed the creation story, which neglected the dinosaurs and the billions of proven years where earth was forming from its hot molten state to the snowball earth into what it is today.
      Statements like that are detrimental to the christian image, were not all stupid.

    • Chris L says:

      12:20pm | 18/07/11

      @Luke - True, I certainly wouldn’t consider it a moral tale by our standards.

    • KylieJ says:

      01:29pm | 18/07/11

      @Luke

      You seem to have your Bible stories a little mixed.  Noah never slept with his daughters-in-law. (Genesis 9)

      The story I think you are referring to occurred 12 generations (or about 500 years) later after the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah when Lot’s daughters tricked him into getting them pregnant.  Not for the propagation of the human race, but for their own ‘I don’t have a husband and who will take care of me in the future’ motives. (Genesis 19)

      The moral of the story is: drink too much and you don’t know who you’ll end up in bed with.

    • Luke says:

      02:58pm | 18/07/11

      Ah yes, Kylie. I stand corrected. Thank you (with not a single bit of irony).

    • Luke says:

      03:12pm | 18/07/11

      Sorry, I just remembered the preface to that story, where Lot (in order to protect a couple of angels) offered his own virginal daughters to a pack of men.

      I’m sorry, but there aren’t any good morals to that. I know that he was protecting the angels (even though they are non-sexual and regardless, should have been able to become incorporeal and disappear), but offering your own daughters to be raped? That’s just appalling.

    • AnthonyK says:

      04:03pm | 19/07/11

      @Luke who says “Sorry, I just remembered the preface to that story, where Lot (in order to protect a couple of angels) offered his own virginal daughters to a pack of men.
      I’m sorry, but there aren’t any good morals to that”

      Why do you assume the moral to the story is to offer your daughters to a pack of men? I don’t think that anyone reading the story could reasonably come to that conclusion.

    • John says:

      07:22am | 18/07/11

      Richard Dawklins believes in what he wants to believe. He is just self righteous atheist who has a destain for religion. I’m sure he in his mind at 100% certainty that Islamic Radicals with box cutters caused the 9/11 disaster! Yeah right!!

      Look at the rubbish he writes, I’m sure he hates us global warming deniers also.

      “? Are Evolution-Deniers any Different from Holocaust-Deniers, Birthers, or Truthers? “
      “clear thinking oasis” “scientific reason and science”
      http://richarddawkins.net/

      His just another phony intellectual, like assange. Both these morons believe in the official theory of 9/11. Because of this they have no creditability.

    • malohi says:

      08:44am | 18/07/11

      Yeah the phony intellectual oxford professor.
      It does not get more phony than that.

      Hates global warming deniers? you must be kidding, he is the first person to encourage scepticism of unfounded mass hysteria.

      No credebility… Dawkins…
      oh a troll, you got me good.  Kudos

    • TChong says:

      09:33am | 18/07/11

      OK John, I’ll bite.
      Whats the connection between Sept 11 and religious beliefs.?
      If you belive in one, you must belive in the other? or not?

    • mel says:

      01:07pm | 18/07/11

      TChong, I’ve tried asking John to explain stuff before and really didn’t get very far. Last week, it was “marxist freudians”, this week it’s “Islamic Radicals”. Just accept that his tinfoil hat is on too tight and move on.

    • John says:

      03:24pm | 18/07/11

      “he is the first person to encourage scepticism”

      Look at his website! “Are Evolution-Deniers any Different from Holocaust-Deniers, Birthers, or Truthers? “”

      He despises skepticism because it doesn’t fit into his skewed view of the world. His total mindset is consumed by how evil religion is and how good atheism is, everything that happens around his world is distorted to fit this perception. This is why he believes in the fictional official 9/11 story of Islamic radicals being behind it and despises 9/11 truthers. The guy is off target, therefore not an intellectual.

    • Billo says:

      03:40pm | 18/07/11

      But at least they can both spell.

    • John says:

      04:37pm | 18/07/11

      Yes, they can spell “bullshit artist” very well.

    • mel says:

      08:59pm | 18/07/11

      John, John, John, you really do need to seek professional help. Apart from the monomania you exhibit, you also seem to have a thing called psychological projection, accusing others of habits you yourself suffer. I think the phrase “bullshit artist” is far more apt for you, not so much for Richard Dawkins.

    • Paul Murray says:

      02:15pm | 19/07/11

      A troofer! A troofer, here on the aussie web! Should we feel honoured? Oh, and an AGW denier - a clear example of “crank magnetism”.

      You accuse Dawkins of “hate”. Sir, I believe you may be engaging in the usual conservative american pastime of projecting your own faults onto others.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      07:25am | 18/07/11

      You can analize, place under a microscope, use any amount of spin, belief and faith it makes no difference. THERE IS NO SUCH THING as sky fairies, Supernatural Dictator, Man in the clouds that no one has ever seen, no indian god with 12 snakes for hair and no such thing as a prophet Mohammed that dishes out a beavy of vigin maidens on arrival at a pearly gate for services to suicide bombings.
      Figments of a weak mind and overactive imagination the sooner that the blind followers wake up and realise that they have all been duped and brainwashed we will have a far better society.

    • Gherkin says:

      09:19am | 18/07/11

      Dogmatism

    • Max Redlands says:

      09:47am | 18/07/11

      “THERE IS NO SUCH THING as sky fairies,”

      I knew you were going to say that.

    • Burko says:

      10:42am | 18/07/11

      “THERE IS NO SUCH THING as sky fairies, Supernatural Dictator, Man in the clouds that no one has ever seen, no indian god with 12 snakes for hair and no such thing as a prophet Mohammed”

      Proove it.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      11:05am | 18/07/11

      @Burko typical answer from imaginary friend believers, please explain how I can prove something doesnt exist. Santa Cklaus, easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy dont exist but using your logic I have to prove they dont exist, as with all imaginary friends normal minds understand they dont exist.

    • Tom says:

      11:27am | 18/07/11

      Burko, the burden of proof in a debate lies with the affirmative side. Google Bertrand’s Teapot - the thrust of this analogy is that if I claim there is a teapot orbiting the sun, too small to see on telescope, I can’t expect people will believe me just because there is no way of falsifying this theory. You can’t just claim with no evidence that there is a God, and expect me to believe you.

    • Budz says:

      07:33am | 18/07/11

      You do realise that Genesis was read literally until….........you guessted it, science proved it to be false?

    • KH says:

      08:15am | 18/07/11

      Ha! Thats what I was going to say, but I assumed someone else would point this out before I got here….....
      For centuries this crap was taken as literal, and anyone who said it wasn’t was burned at the stake or some other similarly horrific death.

    • Nafe says:

      10:13am | 18/07/11

      Genesis is still taken Literal at my Church. I see no notation of 6000 years ago in the bible and no book of the bible is written directly after another, there are many thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of years between each book.

      Books of the bibles are not actually written by God but by his deciples and are their interpretations of the happenings. Genesis is also an interpretation written many thousands of years after it actually occured due to the author of Genesis not being around during the making of the Earth, and wasn’t even alive during the life of Adam and Eve.

      It all needs to be taken in context.

      At the end of the day, if you believe or not believe is a personal choice. No one has come back from death (except Jesus) to tell us if there is or isn’t an afterlife of a Hell or a Heaven, Thats where faith comes in.

      Athiests have faith that none of it exists while Christians (name other religions) have faith that it does. Only time will give us the answer.

    • Nafe says:

      09:51am | 19/07/11

      Budz, Believe it or not different Churches and Different denominations, even different churches in the same denomination have different interpretations of the same book. Maybe you should enlighten yourself. Some Churches and Denominations don’t even teach the Old Testiment so I won’t be reading your links, I have grown up learning the bible and in Bible Study so i whave my own interpretation which may or may not be the same as yours.

    • Budz says:

      04:55pm | 19/07/11

      Nafe, that is more reason to doubt your religion! How do you know your version of your religion is the right one? Isn’t that something worth investigating to not risk spending eternity in hell?

      And doesn’t the fact that Christianity changes all the time also put a lot of doubt about it into your mind?
      On top of that doesn’t the fact that the same 2 books can be interpreted in thousands of different ways show that it is not infact some amazing book that speaks the word of god. Surely god would intervened and made it clear to its followers to this didn’t happen?

    • Rossco says:

      07:34am | 18/07/11

      Thanks for the morning laugh Roy.

      The best arguments for god are purely scientific? Please present the evidence then using the scientific method.

      Regards,

    • Reggie the Monster. says:

      09:51am | 18/07/11

      But he just goes ON…and ON ...and ON.  Never miss an opportunity to heap it on a captive audience I guess. Sorry Roy, your were too boring by half-way, now we’ve got John back wielding a box-cutter on God’s behalf. I hoped if we ignored him yesterday he’d get the message. Do we HAVE to be cruel?  Nah ... he wouldn’t notice, door knockers never do.

    • Tom says:

      11:19am | 18/07/11

      Exactly right. Bascially what I got out of this with his comment that ‘The origin of life on Earth remains a near-total mystery. It seems fairly well-established that the first single-celled prokaryotes appeared about 3.85 million years ago. But where did they come from?’ is that we don’t know what the origin of life on earth was, therefore God must be the cause.

      This absurd reductionism is a favoured tool of theists everywhere. We don’t know something, therefore God must be responsible. We don’t know a lot about life, the universe and everything in the greater scheme of things. Some science from even 20 years ago looks absurd today - witness the h. pylori stomach ulcer causation, or the fact that tectonic plate theory was only accepted in the 1960s. I’m sure much of what we ‘know’ today will appear absurd in the future. But to just crudely accept that God is responsible for what we don’t know, on the basis of precisely no evidence is absurd. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but that does not make it rational to fill in the gaps in scientific knowledge with fairy tales.

    • malohi says:

      07:43am | 18/07/11

      Logic of this rant;
      - I don’t understand the universe;
      - Dawkins does not understand it (if you read the book he is quite honest about it)
      - That means man cannot ever understand it;
      - Therefore a magical being poofing things to life is the likeliest answer.
      You cannot prove this wrong so it is equally if not more valid than any other theory.(this theory can fill lacunas, as the being has magic powers you see)

      It is the religious trap that the ignorant and vulnerable have been falling into for centuries. Let me apply it somewhere else for example;
      I don’t know what happens when you die
      you dont either
      we will never know
      therefore the likeliest answer is: we can visit the magic mans house if we $upport the church and follow these rules. The magic man told me. You cannot prove this wrong etc.

      People are scared of death sot the $upport rolls in, people grow attached to their investment, so their “faith” becomes stronger…

    • Gherkin says:

      09:24am | 18/07/11

      Wow. So self righteous and patronising. Why not just say, “fair enough - sounds like you’ve made a considered decision, even though I disagree…”?

    • malohi says:

      01:22pm | 18/07/11

      Because people who live life based on fiction have the same value at the ballot as me or you.
      Because people kill innocent people in the name of fiction.
      Because millions are oppressed at home and worldwide in the name of fiction.
      Because children are mutilated in the name of fiction.
      Because vulnerable people are exploited for money in the name of fiction.
      Because generous grants and tax exemptions are granted to nothing more than fiction when there are people on the poverty line.

      But yes, your apathy trumps my empathy in the self righteous stakes so I guess you win.

    • Cat says:

      07:31pm | 19/07/11

      summed things up nicely malohi, two thumbs up.

    • Matthew says:

      02:01pm | 22/07/11

      malohi, I love your articulation.
      Note the very few replies you have.  This is the lack of wriggle room you have left for theists.

      Bravo.

    • KRS1 says:

      07:47am | 18/07/11

      Roy,

      “For a start, the accounts of Creation in the Book of Genesis cannot be read literally and were not intended by their authors to be read literally.”

      Stop watering down the story of Genesis. Nowhere does it indicate that it is not literal. 7 days are seven days. The very evening and morning of each day are mentioned specifically.

      Why can’t an Infinite God create something (anything) in a small period of time, let alone no time at all?

      Let the Bible stand on it’s own and stop knocking the legs out from under. There’s enough people on the Punch to do that for you.

      Thanks

    • Sheldon says:

      08:47am | 18/07/11

      Please show me the ending of the 7th day? Also, notice how the word day has three differnant meanings within the first chapter of Genesis.
      day = light
      day = morning and evening
      day 7 has no beging or end.
      Also in the hebrew Gensis rymns just like poetry.

    • Nafe says:

      01:09pm | 18/07/11

      Further to Sheldon’s analysis, The Author of the book of Genesis was not physically at the scene witnessing the making of the heavens and the earth, so therefore is only writing through his visions given to him from God, In a dream as you will.

      Dreams are like movies from your mind, you know a movie that goes for 2 hours can encoumpas someones whole life time, this is no different from a dream.

    • KRS1 says:

      01:32pm | 18/07/11

      Sheldon, not sure what you are getting at here…. The 7th day is mentioned in Gen. 2:3. Simply because it is not stated in the same pattern as days 1-6 (i.e. evening and morning) does not mean that it for some reason didn’t end. I’m sure today will end despite me not writing it down on paper. Maybe be a bit more direct and let the people know your point of view and why.

    • KRS1 says:

      02:02pm | 18/07/11

      Nafe, again.. what is your alternative theory…? What are you basing it on? What benefit is it to you, to say that 7 days = millenia?

    • Nafe says:

      03:49pm | 18/07/11

      KRS1, My comments are just supporting Sheldon’s Theory which clearly demonstrates there are a number of interpretations of Genesis within the verious denomination of the Christian Church,

      Personally, my Church takes the Literal meaning of Creation and a literal meaning of the bible. THe only benefit i see by saying what i initially said is simply to demonstrate the diferences available in interpretation, nothing more.

      My personal views are based on the literal meaning of the scriptures and nothing else.

      I know even at my church though, people do have different interpretations to different passages, even the creation passages. Thats one benefit of attending bible study classes where you can discuss your interpretation with others so you can see that one passage in different ways, it is then up to the individual how God wants you to interpret the said words.

    • Joan says:

      07:52am | 18/07/11

      Who cares what Dawkins thinks? He is just one in how many billions?  Dawkins the self- appointed God expert. The mans a joke, he is right off the rails and he is clueless in his understanding of God as he looks to the universe instead of within himself first. God does not equal astronomy.

    • Helen says:

      04:57pm | 24/07/11

      Or…those who can’t look within themselves and think for themselves, look towards a fantasy (or human reps for fantasy) to tell them what to think and do?  It makes them feel secure when others can sit with their being much they don’t know.

    • Fingers says:

      08:06am | 18/07/11

      It really comes down to this - Do you believe in the existence of:

      Ghosts? Santa Claus? The Easter Bunny? The Tooth Fairy? Big Foot? The Lochness Monster?......

      Most normal, rational, educated, free thinking people agree that no, these things do not really exist - so why then do so many, including many seemingly otherwise intelligent people, believe in some supernatural God?

      Having been raised in a Catholic household, going to Catholic schools and attending Church most weekends with my parents until roughly the age of 14, my view on it all, now some twenty years later is….It’s all a hoax - science is right and all you thiests out there know it - you just can’t and will never publicly accept it and agree, because doing so would publicly acknowledge how plainly stupid, gullible and brain washed you all are. 

      Not to mention all the money you’d cease to make with bogus tax breaks through ‘religion’.

      And image how p!ssed off all the priests around the world are gonna be when they finally wake up and see they’ve all been duped and could have been shagging all along!

    • Gherkin says:

      09:30am | 18/07/11

      Or this:

      You are so arrogant and deluded as to think that humans - who are no more than complex microbial sludge - are capable of knowing with any certainty that reality does not include a being with infinite properties.

      Bitterness about one religion’s impact on your youth is hardly a compelling reason to for such a cocksure assumption.

    • Fingers says:

      11:05am | 18/07/11

      @ Gherkin - Did I hint at ‘bitterness’ in my Catholic up bringing? I didn’t think so - that’s because there is no bitterness. Still, that doesn’t mean I have to agree with Catholicism or any other religious ideals. I am not bitter; I just think religion is silly. 

      If I were to believe in any religion, the Flying Spaghetti Monster makes as much sense to me as Catholocism, Islam or anything else you can come up with.

      You’re arrogance to assume religious bitterness on my behalf is the only cocksure assumption here.

    • Horthy says:

      12:09pm | 18/07/11

      It’s the Loch Ness Monster, dude. You know, the Monster from Loch Ness.

      (sorry, but sheesh).

    • Fingers says:

      12:31pm | 18/07/11

      Thanks @ Horthy, I appreciate the edit.

    • Mick says:

      02:35pm | 18/07/11

      Maybe, no, no, no, unlikely, unlikely

      Not supernatural – natural

      Because to go from A-sexual organisms to the current (not that I’m complaining) male female set up does not have any biological advantage.  Also the number of mutations required to take us from single celled organisms to who we are today is not possible in 4.5 billion years.

      Also the evolution from apes to man is linear…..If we are the product of random mutations then we would see fossil evidence of dead-end species that divert from the linear evolution from ape to man.

    • Tubesteak says:

      03:56pm | 18/07/11

      Mick

      The number of mutations is more than possible in 4.5 billion years. Even over the last 65 million years we have seen countless mutations throw up new species. All you have to do is look.

      There are quite a number of species on man’s fossil record that shows it is not linear. There are some dead-end species just as much as there is evidence that early hominids of different variety interacted and mated together.

      All you have to do is a bit of research and educate yourself.

    • Greg says:

      08:18am | 18/07/11

      I don’t find your argument for the existence of a god at all convincing, but even if it were, it’s an argument for the existence of a generic creator. It doesn’t provide a reason to believe in the Christian God with all of its attendant nonsense beliefs based on absolutely no proof or reason over any of the hundreds or thousands of “gods” that humans have believed in over the millennia with equally sparse evidence, not to mention the current batch of popular ones in Islam, Hinduism etc.

    • Gherkin says:

      09:37am | 18/07/11

      If you are serious, you need to account for the rational development of theology by Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, etc.

      Generic god is a starting point. Human reason is capable of logical exptrapolation.

      Also, if tis generic god exists, what would preclude it from revealing or manifesting itself in some way?

      Reason and revelation account for the shift from generic god to Christian God.

    • Erick says:

      10:05am | 18/07/11

      That’s an excellent point, Greg. If there is a Creartor, there’s no reason why it should be the Christian God (which itself comes in many versions).

      Thousands of religions have existed, and there are probably an infinite number of possible religious belief systems. The odds of Roy Williams’ particular version of a supreme being turning out to be the only correct one are infinitesimal.

    • Kevin says:

      11:18am | 18/07/11

      I agree.  The author states:
      ‘In using the term “God” I am content to adopt Richard Dawkins’ own definition: “A supernatural creator that is … appropriate for us to worship”.’
      While I think the article is thoughtful and interesting (and a welcome change to the “evolution is crap” variety of arguments), the author does not provide any reasons why the cosmic creator is an entity that/who is “appropriate for us to worship”.

    • Reggie says:

      01:40pm | 18/07/11

      If He’s a She, Erick is history.  Again!

    • acotrel says:

      04:31pm | 18/07/11

      @Greg We should be happy that the godbotheres will even have this debate.  It wouldn’t have happened 100 years ago!  Even thoiugh I get into a bit of stirring on this type of subject, I’ve noticed a change in the type of response over the last few years, that tells me the mindset is changing for the better.  I don’t have a problem with anyone believing anything, as long as their belief is well considered.

    • KH says:

      08:22am | 18/07/11

      I love how you assume that cognition and conscience are ‘uniquely human’.  Really? You got some proof of that?  How do you know there aren’t other planets with intelligent life that aren’t human?  That would throw a rather large spanner in the works, now wouldn’t it?

    • Peter says:

      08:30am | 18/07/11

      Many years ago when I was at school, I was taught in science that “matter cannot be created or destroyed”.
      My question to the learned people on this site is; “where did that first atom that exploded and caused the huge chain reaction (the Big Bang) to form our universe come from?”
      I do not believe most of what is written in the Bible, simply because it was written for a simple people with no scientific understanding and as such gave them a simple explanation for their existence, much the same as the Rainbow Serpent does for our indigenous brothers and sisters.
      I am, however, convinced that there must be a higher force that directs events in the universe and whether we choose to call this force God, Allah, Yaweh, Jehova or Hydrogen is immaterial.
      Religion per se is irrelevant as it was created by humans, however faith in a superior being is not, for if humans are the most intelligent life form there is in the universe, we are all doomed.

    • malohi says:

      09:00am | 18/07/11

      Faith is the problem word that destroys your argument.
      People do not have faith in a big bang, or such hamfisted slogans as “matter cannot be created or destroyed.” People present hypotheses which attempt to explain the evidence available,

      What you mean by faith is belief without evidence. You can have a hypothesis that because you don’t understand how something came to be; that it was created by something. But to have blind faith that your hypothesis is correct without any evidence backing it up is ridiculous.

      To take that even further, to present your “evidence” as second hand stories passed down for centuries as fact, and then when the facts are deemed false, to claim that they are not meant to be literal or they have been misinterpreted by humans is the most ridiculous situation of all.

    • malohi says:

      09:00am | 18/07/11

      Faith is the problem word that destroys your argument.
      People do not have faith in a big bang, or such hamfisted slogans as “matter cannot be created or destroyed.” People present hypotheses which attempt to explain the evidence available,

      What you mean by faith is belief without evidence. You can have a hypothesis that because you don’t understand how something came to be; that it was created by something. But to have blind faith that your hypothesis is correct without any evidence backing it up is ridiculous.

      To take that even further, to present your “evidence” as second hand stories passed down for centuries as fact, and then when the facts are deemed false, to claim that they are not meant to be literal or they have been misinterpreted by humans is the most ridiculous situation of all.

    • Babe in the Woods says:

      10:00am | 18/07/11

      @Peter, I like your last paragraph.  I chose to believe in a higher force that I call God (for want of a better term).  However, I have no time for structured theism.  What is important for me is not that others believe, or not believe, rather that my faith gives me comfort and strength.

    • Einstein says:

      01:01pm | 18/07/11

      Wow. How old are you Peter? Special Relativity was published in 1905. That makes you about 120 but it’s even more remarkable that you’ve been able to live at least the last half of them with your eyes shut. Still, I would have thought someone would have pointed out nuclear weapons…..

    • Mick says:

      02:10pm | 18/07/11

      @malohi

      “o   What you mean by faith is belief without evidence. You can have a hypothesis that because you don’t understand how something came to be; that it was created by something. But to have blind faith that your hypothesis is correct without any evidence backing it up is ridiculous. “

      Ergo believing in the multiverse theory is ridiculous?

    • malohi says:

      03:29pm | 18/07/11

      If you have unshakeable faith that the theory is correct and you let the multiverse theory control aspects of your life to the exclusion of even common sense, then yes, it it truly rediculous, you are correct.

      If even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you steadfastly stick to the multiverse theory and brush off anomalies at a whim as certain parts of the theory not requiring literal interpretation. That is even more absurd.

      If however you have weighed up the evidence, heard the theory, interpret it as plausible but not conclusive and make a concious decision to accept it as the most likely explanation for phenomena. That is what being an open minded sensible person is all about.

      If however, you are unsure about something and your mind immediately assumes that it must be magic or made by a magical being, that is what being an infant is all about.

    • Aidan says:

      08:42am | 18/07/11

      Yahweh, Allah, Buddha….......

      (yawn)

      What happened to all the “cool” Gods like Odin, Ares and Chuck Norris?

    • malohi says:

      09:02am | 18/07/11

      Goku went ss3 and pwned them all.
      Then dragonball faded into obscurity thanks to pokemon.
      Its all a mess now…

    • Anubis says:

      09:32am | 18/07/11

      I’m still here wink

    • Gaz says:

      10:05am | 18/07/11

      Why is there no like button on this forum?!

    • Chris L says:

      11:55am | 18/07/11

      They were destroyed by Gozer the Destructor! It’s what he does.

    • iansand says:

      08:53am | 18/07/11

      If god created the universe, with the laws of physics and then wandered off for a bit og gardening what is the point of religion?  You can call the first cause god, or the big bang, or Bruce.  It is just a label.

      Religion implies an interventionist god - a god that is worth praying to.  The idea that an ordered universe, and nothing else, somehow proves the existence of god eliminates the need for professional communicators with that god.

    • stephen says:

      02:40pm | 18/07/11

      ‘a god that is worth praying to…’ is not a reponse inherent in Religion, but is an arbitrary response and reaction by earlier writers, especially in the Bishop’s Bible.
      Besides, praying is begging, and seems to me to be an ignoble heirarchy.
      A lot of responses up top confuse normative responses of ‘good’ and ‘ought’, then juggle them amongst laws - metaphysical ones too - of facts that are subject to the natural sciences.
      Explaining a God that is felt by intinct and intuition is like justifying your love - of anyone - using numbers alone.
      It all adds up and we can describe our reaction to something as a score out of ten, be we, have to use a language that is not only a describer, but emphasizes a moral conduct quite apart from a metaphysical naturalism.

    • iansand says:

      03:00pm | 18/07/11

      Do you expect you god to intervene?  If not, what is the point of the religious trappings?

    • stephen says:

      05:22pm | 18/07/11

      This question misunderstands entirely what a Religion is, (and I mean no disrespect to you.)
      A God does not settle disputes between ourselves and a baker, or a policeman, nor does it excuse bad behaviours or give us the need to feel glad when we succeed at something ; it’s not a person or a single conscience.
      If you read The Bible close enough there are enough clues in it and other good books throughout history, (there are many ‘Bibles’ : The King James was the first to have characters and a donkey as main characters) to sense that only a Science, one which can accommodate intuition as real and able to be tested as such, (this, I think, will happen one day) can explain what, if anything, is a collective conscience.

    • iansand says:

      06:03pm | 18/07/11

      Why do you need god for a “collective conscience”?

    • stephen says:

      07:03pm | 18/07/11

      ‘God’ explains an historical point from which we all aspire.
      It’s only a literary term.
      The Bible is a terrific book but is being superceded by new philosophies currently under perusal by clever people - Deryck Parfit is one such - and I believe that the troubles in the Middle East, Afghanistan and indeed Iraq, is this new Idealism.
      The word ‘God’ is only an old potato.

    • MikeTheInfidel says:

      01:56pm | 19/07/11

      Stephen, not a single damn word of what you just said actually makes sense.

    • monkeytypist says:

      08:58am | 18/07/11

      This “there was nothing, then there was something” propositions about God really irritates me.  People should read Stephen Hawking.  Asking “what was before the big bang” makes as much sense as asking “what is north of the north pole?”  The notion of causality does not apply to existence itself, and to blithely assert that it does is just an Aquinan hangover without any justification.

    • Chris L says:

      11:57am | 18/07/11

      Actually, Monkytypist, asking what was before the Big Bang is not so senseless. Emanations of radiation picked up recently seem to incidate that the Big Bang we have detected was only the most recent of many.

    • monkeytypist says:

      02:41pm | 18/07/11

      @ChrisL you’ll have to direct me to the reports you’re referring to, since I haven’t come across them.  I assume that radiaton evidence we can examine directly comes from this universe, and by definition we can only speculate about what happens/-ed outside of it.  In any case, if there was a universe “prior” to this one (embracing some sort of ‘meta-time’ I suppose, since time began at the Big Bang as well), that isn’t in itself evidence for the existence of any specific creator being/deity.

    • Shelly says:

      08:59am | 18/07/11

      Short version - the world is amazing therefore God.

    • Brendo says:

      09:03am | 18/07/11

      The tides…you can’t explain them.  Therefore God exists.

      Bill O’Reilly told me told smile

    • Aidan says:

      10:41am | 18/07/11

      Ahh, good ol’ Bill!

      An ignorant old nob he may be, but he’s terrific value all the same!

    • Horthy says:

      12:11pm | 18/07/11

      Never a miscommunication!

    • Nafe says:

      01:25pm | 18/07/11

      Didn’t Glen Beck confirm Bill’s findings?

    • Expat Ozzie says:

      02:25pm | 18/07/11

      Nafe: Glen Beck knows everything, you just ask him. smile

    • Fiddler says:

      09:12am | 18/07/11

      Roy…. Straws…. clutching….... at
      Yes there is a way a few of the old testament stories can be forced to coincide with current scientific theories, now fit how the bible was created into that? God is so insecure he must be worshipped (despite offering no proof of his existence) and if you don’t you will burn for eternity.
      Or…. it’s just a load of shit. Give me the Greek gods any day, they were way cooler

    • Dodge says:

      09:14am | 18/07/11

      Oh wonderful, is this the kind of piece we can expect in the future from The punch? Yet more questioning of commonly held scientific postions?

      The only reason this trite is getting a spot is Abbott the silly monotheist has everyone in a tizz about knowledge and science.

    • Erick says:

      01:11pm | 18/07/11

      Wow. I didn’t think anyone could possibly find an excuse to drag parochial politics into this thread, but somehow you did! Congratulations, I guess.

    • Chris L says:

      02:40pm | 18/07/11

      I think MarK beat Dodge to the punch by bringing up the whole carbon and climate change issue, Erick.

      Still I agree. There’s plenty of other blogs to score political points on. This one is for scoring theistic points.

    • MarK says:

      03:05pm | 18/07/11

      “I think MarK beat Dodge to the punch by bringing up the whole carbon and climate change issue, Erick.”

      Where?

      Gosh I get blamed for a lot of stuff. I wish I was as truly evil as people think I am. Then I would be like Dr Evil the most evilest person ever. Which would be cool and stuff. I so want to be the best evil person ever. Anyone need a puppy or 2 slaughtered? Or a cow. That would be worse right? Killing a cow?

      (Nice article by the way - I hadn’t commented before because I found it to be good. So like on a sunny/rainy day I didn’t feel the need to state the obvious.)

    • Chris L says:

      04:35pm | 18/07/11

      Was that a different MarK at 9:06am? Must be a case of mistaken identity but, in my defence, he looks just like you.

      Regardless, I was just pointing out that Dodge wasn’t the first one to waylay the subject to score a political point (missed it by that much).

    • Steve says:

      09:14am | 18/07/11

      If evolution is correct and the big band happened 13.8 billion years ago who created thos to atoms to collide together.?

      How was the date of carbon dating item set in the firstplace?

      While science does tell us amazing new things every day it does constantly change its facts. The bible and the science doesnt meet up, but I dont think the Bible set its self out as a the scientific review nor does science branch out and tell us moral codes to live by.

      If there is a God who is outside of time why does he have to make it in any alloted time. 6 sec, 6 billion year it simply no difference.  I currently going or evolution is hyper drive (except the apes and human bit ) and it could be 6 days

    • KH says:

      12:52pm | 18/07/11

      Great - now I can hear Glenn Miller music in my head…......thanks wink

    • Elphaba says:

      09:32am | 18/07/11

      Look, this is all great.  But you can’t make yourself believe in something, just because ‘modern’ religious people are drawing all these parallels beteween religion and science.

      I have no problem with God of the baby Jesus - they sound like lovely people.  I have no beef with religion (except Scientology, but that’s because it peddles dangerous notions about the severity of mental health issues).  But for me, God is in the same column as fairies at the bottom of the garden, and Santa Claus.  It’s a nice story.  But I don’t for a second believe in it, because it requires a fantastical suspension of belief on my part.

      Science is still humble enough to say ‘we don’t know’.  I don’t ever see religion doing that, and I find that sanctimonious and extremely trying.

      And I extremely doubt that we are the only life in this or any other universe. How depressing would that be if it’s true…

    • trentyn says:

      10:56am | 18/07/11

      i grew up in churches. they all premised their teachings with this is how I/we have understood god’s teachings. thus i think your point is off target. most religions are about as humble as science in acknowledging that there is still so much that humans dont know. any difference beyond that is semantic.
      science is just another religion: the worship of mankind’s knowledge

    • Tedd says:

      11:50am | 18/07/11

      trentyn,
      Science is not an entity or organisation that can or cannot acknowledge.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:55pm | 18/07/11

      @trentyn.

      We disagree.

      Cheers.

    • Apostate Mate says:

      09:34am | 18/07/11

      The Big Bang - it’s what many religious go off on with little children.  And brain wash them as well.  Thank goodness I graduated from the Catholic crueltly and became a critical thinker which is what followers of any religions cannot do.  Forgive them, fellow atheists, they know not what they do.

    • Blazes says:

      09:42am | 18/07/11

      Brilliant article. Very well written and argued - it’s good to read a coherent, logical explanation for why God exists.

    • Rossco says:

      01:04pm | 18/07/11

      Very coherent and logical. Excuse me while I go back to my padded cell.

    • Grade Teacher says:

      09:43am | 18/07/11

      Is this really the best you can do to “prove” that God exists?

      If I were marking a student’s paper I would give this a C, and add the following text at the top: “Lots of words, but little to no thought applied. See me after class.”

    • Dazeddazza says:

      09:46am | 18/07/11

      Roy, you are just another “god-botherer”.  Go home, read your religious books, and stay out of the real world.    But first, a well done, the most stupid article I have read for weeks.

    • Eleanor R says:

      09:47am | 18/07/11

      The Bible is 100% correct & so is my local Pastor….. All the scientists are wrong…... every one of them.

    • GOD says:

      01:01pm | 18/07/11

      Bad Eleanor R.

    • Sam says:

      10:01am | 18/07/11

      “....Modern-day defenders of orthodox Christianity – of any religion with a supernatural element – face a host of challenges. Chief among them is the widespread assumption that science and religion are hopelessly incompatible….”

      Oh Roy, Roy, Roy, your very first paragraph destroys your whole argument ! Science and religion ARE hopelessly incompatible !!  Your whole piece is the biggest load of drivel because you fail to mention that Science must show evidence, science claims must be repeatable, science claims must be fully explained and open to testing and challenge. Your “GOD” beliefs are not science, people like yourselves make all these wild claims and produce no proof, no evidence, nothing to back your claims.

      You seem to harp on the fact that the universe is balanced in a way that is just right for life to develop, yet you then claim that this is because of a “GOD”, you dont see the that because there is life then the universe can support life, of course conditions have to be right for life, otherwise nothing would exist.

      This is typical rot and nonsense of all religions, make all these wild claims and produce no evidence, nothing that can be tested, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

      If as you claim there is some incredibly powerful GOD then why doesnt he just appear in the sky today? That way this argument will be over, but wait your christian mates all make the same claim that GOD cannot talk to humans or we will die (dont you love the ass covering), but I do seem to recall a number of instances in the bible where GOD talked directly to humans, and the first one is ADAM, so your typical religious argument that GOD cant prove himself by showing himself to the entire world is just another nail in the GOD idea.

      The whole of Christianity is based totally on your bible, the bible is no proof of GOD it is merely a collection of short stories collected and plagiarized from the Mediterranean regions. Written by men to enslave men, In fact if you actually read the bible you will find a book that contradicts itself, a book that is riddled with errors and mistakes.

      So what can you provide us as some form of proof of GOD ? Nothing at all, give up your Bronze Age superstitions and grow up, come back and write another article when you provide evidence, not merely trying to state that because the universe exists then your GOD must exist.

      In the spare time you may have, please try and answer the following riddle -

      “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicarus 341BCE - 270 BCE
      You may also like to think about the following quote

    • SF says:

      10:05am | 18/07/11

      “This is the so-called Goldilocks Enigma (the title of one of Paul Davies’ best books). The central concept is that, like Goldilocks’ porridge, the Universe is “just right” for life.”

      You realize that by this line of reasoning, the universe is also “just right” for earthquakes, typhoons, and other natural disasters, right? If you want to play the coincidence game, you can’t just stop at universal constants. You have to get right down to the earth, how it maintains life, (including its plate tectonics and its sheath of fluid atmosphere). Maybe the universe was actually made to support bacteria and viruses as well as fungi? “god” knows they outnumber us all in every aspect. If you looked at the amount of space between planets, the universe is also perfectly suited for vacuum! How about rocks? What percent of universal constants do we shift before rocks lost all cohesion?

      Give me any sort of still existing object in this universe and we can all perform retroactive logic and then marvel at how amazing it’s existence is. This numbers game is meaningless, you are just putting on your coincidence glasses and marveling at post hoc observations.

      What the author of this rubbish piece did is doling out a lot of half true platitudes with not an ounce of evidence to back them up. You are free to arm chair philosophize all day, but purely scientific clams are tested and verified. Unlike your hot air which are in parts copied from intellectual hacks like William Lane Craig.

      You dare claim scientific validation when the central tenet of your claims, that “God” exists at all, is not even tested, verified or given evidence for! Its a house of cards with “God” at the bottom. Until you provide actual, testable evidence (and i stress testable) for the God Hypothesis, nothing else you say on this subject has any scientific merit at all. But I suspect the author won’t understand why testable hypothesis and evidence is important. Not with the way he thinks name dropping Francis Collins and Newton is enough to persuade anyone. That’s not how science works, but you’d hardly expect better for someone who wrote this piece.

      There is codswallop alright, but its a gigantic carton on Roy WIlliams side. Someone fire this clown and get a person with some REAL understanding of science.

    • Macon Paine says:

      03:00pm | 18/07/11

      Bravo SF, well said. You have thrown a proverbial pie in that clowns face!

      My bet is that he won’t even read it and he’ll just carry on spouting his nonsense to impressionable minds as if it has never been refuted.

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      03:50pm | 18/07/11

      Further to SF’s post, if anything, the universe is actually hostile to life, and supports it on only one planet discovered so far. In addition, on this planet, only a small percentage is actually supportive of life, and even less for human life. What a silly thing to say, that the universe is designed to support life.

    • Mark says:

      10:17am | 18/07/11

      “For a start, the accounts of Creation in the Book of Genesis cannot be read literally and were not intended by their authors to be read literally ” I have no doubt whatsoever that the authors of the book of genesis intended it to be read literally.

      “For one thing, it flouts Occam’s razor” Multiuniverse fails Occam’s razor? Not as much as the God Delusion. After all who created God, where did it come from? Not very simple at all really.

      There may well be a powerful intelligence that has some relationship to the creation of our universe; the Multiuniverse explains that as well. In fact I suspect that there are powerful intelligences that we are as incapable of understanding as a frog is incapable of understanding us.

      Why assume that human beings are capable of understanding everything, indeed we know that almost all human beings are incapable of understanding the high level maths that define modern physics. It appears likely that the most intelligent human being is in turn incapable of understanding the entire universe.

      But it is impossible that there is a all powerful, all knowing, good god. Evil exists & no good creature would create the world we live in. What you say who am I to know the mind of god, maybe he/she/it had good reasons I cannot understand. Maybe but I can only define good from what I know, from where I stand no creature could be all powerful, all knowing & good or our world would not exist. Furthermore I very much doubt that a powerful supernatural creature would be interested in our worship or inclined to notice us, anymore then I notice an ant unless it bites me.

      As for the nature of any supernatural being, should such a creature exist why should the present most popular myths should have any closer bearing to the truth then all the other now gone & forgotten myths. Why is Allah true but not Odin? Religion is nothing more then people child like crying & closing their eyes to the dying of their life.

    • Luke says:

      10:18am | 18/07/11

      I could make this a long post rebutting a lot of your points, but I’ll pick on your pre-determination one, just for fun.

      You say that we all have free will. Fair enough, I think we do too. But it is totally incompatible with an omnipotnent and omniscient god. He knows everything that has, is, and will happen. If he knows what will happen, then every single decision you (and everyone else) has made, has been made for you, by him/her/it.

      On a related note, as you’ve read The God Delusion, so you’ll be familiar with the idea that once god created the universe, then he’s not able to change it (as it would alter the course of his envisioned ‘history’). So he’s not omnipotent. Alternatively, if he can change things, he’s not omniscient as his visions of how the universe would run are wrong.

    • Gherkin says:

      10:53am | 18/07/11

      Wrong. You fail to account for the fact that time and matter are inseparable, and assume that an infinite God would have to act and exist within the constraints of time.

      Time is simply a measure of change in the material universe. Anything which is beyond the material universe is not subject to time as we experience it.

    • Luke says:

      11:18am | 18/07/11

      No, Gherkin. We either have free will and god isn’t godlike, or we have no free will and god IS godlike. We cannot, in any possible way, have free will and a godlike being.

      Time is immaterial here. God sees the universe in one way, so it must be that way. That means everything within the universe must conform to the plan that god has.

    • Luke says:

      11:22am | 18/07/11

      Oh wait. I just read some of your other posts, Gherkin, and it’s evident that you don’t actually offer any substantial arguments to the matter.

      At least you didn’t insult me (like you did to a few others which is exactly how a good Christian should behave, right?), so thanks for that little mercy.

    • Gherkin says:

      01:26pm | 18/07/11

      Your dichotomy is unprovable. Human free will and divine omnipotence are only mutually exclusive if we accept your premise that the way an omnipotent god sees the universe corresponds with the way we see and experience the universe.

      That is, your dichotomy is constrained by the human experience of reality as a material and temporal reality, but it is no more reasonable to believe that all reality is material, than to believe that reality includes a non-material dimension as well. You simply can’t be sure that the natural world is all there is. That would be like a blind person assuming that there is no such thing as light, simply because her or she has never experienced it.

      Theologians speak of god as being ‘transcendent”, as in, transcending the material universe, on the hypothesis that there IS something beyond the natural, observable universe.

      Since we cannot know reality from this hypothetical “transcendent” perspective, but only from the material perspective, we simply cannot rule out the possibility that from an infinite god’s transcendent perspective, omnipotent divine-will could include the will to imbue material beings (i.e. human animals) with free will.

      (Free will, by the way, is an inherently transcendent quality, enabling humanity to rise above - or transcend - purely natural/material instincts. No other part of the natural world has ever been observed to exercise free will. As such, free will itself points us to the likely existence of a transcendent, or supernatural, dimension, in which we humans already participate.)

    • Luke says:

      02:14pm | 18/07/11

      That sounded impressive, but didn’t actually mean anything.

      I believe I have the free will to eat meat or not eat meat. According to the bible, god knows all and he plans for me to be either a vegetarian or an omnivore. Am I greater than god for breaking his plan, or do I not have free will?

      Time has no meaning in this discussion. He either commands that I do something whether I know it or not (thus denying me free will) or he isn’t as powerful as he is made out to be.

      [My decision to eat meat or not may define things further in the world which have little apparent relation, as per the butterfly effect, chaos theory, or whatever else it may be called. The meat thing is just an arbitrary example of a decision that I may take.]

      As for my dichotomy being unprovable… I don’t understand. You are relying on a ‘transcendent’ dimension to explain away how I can choose to do something, but still *just happen* to do god’s will and suit his plan.

      God does have a plan, right? There is a reason for all of this? Or are you saying that he just created us and is watching the fireworks without actually giving a damn what happens? That raises whole other problems with the “benevolent, omniscient being” claim.

      If you go down that path, then he’s a total prick. Why did he create cancer? Why did he make bacteria that can harm us? Why have earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanos, droughts, floods, lightning strikes? If man was perfect to begin with, then maybe those things didn’t hurt us at the Adam and Eve stage. But then he must have purposefully screwed with the world to make sure that everyone suffered for someone else’s sin. He’s either so powerful that he controlled all of what he was creating (omnipotent), or he had no control over what was being created (not omnipotent).

      And according to the bible (OT, but the metaphor stands) the reason the entire world gets shafted in numerous, exciting and creative ways, is BECAUSE he gave the first few people free will and they didn’t do exactly as he wanted. Just like the (fallen) angels/satan. So he gives us free will, punishes us for using it, then tries it again with the next batch of experiments. THEN, not only does he give the ‘bad guys’ punishment, but every one of their kind. That’s like demanding every child on earth deserves to go to his room because little Timmy ate all the chocolate.

      There’s so many inconsistencies with god and his benevolence and omnipotence: he either is benevolent and not omnipotent, or not benevolent and omnipotent.

    • stephen says:

      10:22am | 18/07/11

      It was only by accident that the non-stick frypan was discovered, so why not God, and why not by individuals who have differing perceptions ?
      God-believers don’t have to prove anything to anybody, least of all those who have in their hand a stick and want to be told its not a wand.
      There’s nothing spooky about the Laws of Physics which cannot explain everything but which belief and faith explains the rest.
      Proof is not neccessary.

    • mike j says:

      10:24am | 18/07/11

      “it all sounds like a load of old codswallop”

      Ironically, the very reaction most people have to the Bible.

    • AllanJ says:

      10:36am | 18/07/11

      Roy, I couldn’t agree with you more.

      It was during the final year of my Science degree that I started, for the first time in my life, to think about God.  I can remember, having been introduced to concepts such a relativity, the theory of light, quantum mechanics and the like, saying to some of my friends, “there must be a God.”  Over the succeeding decades, as our understanding of the size and complexity of the universe has grown, my conviction as to the existence of God has grown with it.

      The problem for Dawkins and others like him is that they don’t acknowledge the limitations of science.  Science does not deal with reality.  Rather it deals with our perception of reality.  By “perception” I mean the ideas we can construct about “reality” from what we perceive of the material universe with our five senses.  Scientists have invented a great range of devices, such as telescopes, microscopes, cloud chambers, the hadron collider and so on to extend beyond their normal limits the ability of our senses to observe the material objects which surround us.

      But it all comes back to what we can see, hear, feel etc..  When we look into the sky we can’t see that galaxy on the “edge” of the universe.  But we can see that smudge on the photographic plate or that number in a computer file that is produced by light from the galaxy.  We can’t see the molecular structure of a crystal, but we can see the images produced by an electron microscope that give us clues as to its ordered structure.  It is then what we infer from that which we perceive by our senses that we construct mathematical equations and mental pictures that describe the functioning of the material universe.

      Science provides us, therefore, with very useful and effective intellectual structures for our perceptions of the physical universe and the environment in which we live.  To say there is nothing outside of these intellectual structures is anti-intellectual in the extreme.  To say that there is no intelligence behind the complexities of the design that has taken us centuries to (partially) unearth is stretching credulity beyond its limits.

    • Budz says:

      01:12pm | 18/07/11

      All you do is say that science doesn’t have all the answers, which everyone knows. You also claim to say that you know god exists, yet where is your proof? If you are a scientist or at least studied science, you must be aware of the level of proof required to prove a hypothesis. So where is it?
      You also said it is anti-intellectual to think there is nothing outside of the physical universe, well do you have ANY evidence that there is anything outside it? Or are you just assuming?

    • AllanJ says:

      02:33pm | 18/07/11

      @Budz.  Some have faith that there is a God.  Others have faith that there is no God.  To those who believe that there is no God, I would say where is your proof?

      Science does not provide proof that there is no God any more that it provides proof that there is a God.  Both assertions have to be accepted or rejected by faith.

      As far as I am concerned the more science has uncovered of the complexity of the universe the more intellectually dishonest it becomes to deny the intelligence that lies behind it all.

      You are welcome to disagree.

    • malohi says:

      03:48pm | 18/07/11

      I cannot prove there are no unicorns.


      Would you support people living tax free due to belief in unicorns just because you could not disprove it?
      Would you support people being funded by the state to spout unicorn existence propaganda to school children?
      Would you support unicorn believers cutting off organs of their children as a sacrifice to the unicorns?
      Would you watch people kill in the name of unicorns, then support there right to practice their barbaric beliefs just because you could not disprove them?

    • Budz says:

      04:20pm | 18/07/11

      Thank you for the opportunity to disagree, because I will definitely disagree. If religion is posing the idea that there is a god then it is also religion’s duty to provide evidence of this. Why is it you will believe in God without evidence yet you won’t believe in other things like people living on Mars, ghosts, fairies and the lochness monster?
      Back to the main point, why is god the only thing that you believe in without evidence? Because there HAS to be a greater being?

      Isn’t the chance of us living in a fake world like in the movie the Matrix a more likely answer? That in reality we are connected to some machine that uses our energy feed itself?

    • AllanJ says:

      04:41pm | 18/07/11

      @Malohi.  Science provides no proof of the existence of God.  However, it provides an enormous amount of evidence.

      One can only say “the heavens declare the glory of God.”

      There is precious little evidence of the existence of unicorns.

    • AllanJ says:

      05:21pm | 18/07/11

      @Budz.  Ultimately, in this profoundly important question, we all need to look inside ourselves and be true to the conviction that lies within us.  Looking for assistance outside to science, religion, philosophy and the experience of others may help to point the way, but ultimately it is the inner certainty that is born within us that becomes the keystone of our lives.

      This “certainty” is an individual matter that is not the result of scientific “proof” or logical analysis.  It is far deeper and more real than that.

      Where it leads will be different for each of us and we should not disparage the path that others are taking.  If this takes you down a path of atheism then so be it.  If your conviction is in the existence of God then let it be so.

      I have made my own convictions clear.

    • Budz says:

      06:17pm | 18/07/11

      I decipher that last post of yours as: I have been indoctrinated into Christianity, and to believe it without any logical reason or evidence to prove it’s legitimacy, but I will continue to believe it as I was told it’s true.

    • AllanJ says:

      08:47pm | 18/07/11

      @Budz.  It could also be deciphered as:  You have accurately observed the corrupting influence of religious institutions and have allowed it to destroy whatever faith in God you had.  You are now doing your best to destroy the faith of others.

      You are certainly not the first.

    • mel says:

      09:47pm | 18/07/11

      AllanJ says: “Science provides no proof of the existence of God. However, it provides an enormous amount of evidence. One can only say “the heavens declare the glory of God.” There is precious little evidence of the existence of unicorns.”

      Really? Little evidence? The glorious beauty of the world, the majesty of the heavens are surely ample proof to anyone with an ounce of reason that invisible pink unicorns made the universe. Equally, there is absolutely no evidence for whatever feeble deity you worship.

      Or are you just making stuff up to make yourself feel better?

    • AllanJ says:

      02:01pm | 19/07/11

      @Mel.  What, then, is the deity you worship?  Is it science?  Or is it philosophy and the human intellect?  Perhaps it is economic, political or military power.  Personal wealth and social status could be serious contenders.  Even little invisible pink unicorns seem to be in with a chance.  Then again it may just be yourself.

      Select the one of the above which makes you feel best.

    • mel says:

      01:42pm | 20/07/11

      AllanJ, I don’t think I worship any deity. Do I have to? Is it a requirement?

      Given your list of possible things to worship, it seems you have a funny concept of deities. I’m just wondering if you are making stuff up again.

      Perhaps more seriously, deities are slippery things that seem to defy definition. All of them lack proof for existence. The seemingly too subtle point that I was trying to make was that you would be hard pressed to show that your preferred god existed and the 3000 or so others did not. In other words, how do you know which god is it that the heavens declare the glory? Is it Jehovah, the christian God, Allah, Shiva, Zeus, the Rainbow Serpent, or those cuddly little pink unicorns? (Well, I think they are cuddly but it’s hard to tell as they are invisible.)

    • AllanJ says:

      08:27am | 21/07/11

      @Mel.  You ask “I don’t think I worship any deity. Do I have to? Is it a requirement?”

      I don’t know that it is a “requirement” but I think most of us do in one way or another.  It depends, of course, of how you define “deity.”

      In the context of this discussion a “deity” may be seen to be something or somebody we place on a pedestal and look to as a guiding light or inspiration to help us hold our lives together and give us a sense of purpose and worth.

    • mel says:

      09:29am | 21/07/11

      If that’s the case, AllanJ, then no, I do not worship a ‘deity’ (although I don’t think the word has as broad a definition as you believe). I certainly don’t want or expect to gain any sense of purpose and worth from such worship. That would just be silly!

      Like most people, I am fairly eclectic, picking and choosing what I think are good ideas on how to live a life based on that old golden rule, “treat others as you want to be treated”, or at least trying not to harm people.

      Even followers of traditional deities are similarly eclectic, ignoring those god given rules that seem wrong to them. For example, liberal jews and christians have no issue with gays, they no longer demand that unruly children be stoned by the city gate. I hear some even wear clothes of mixed fabric nowadays. In other words, they are just like me, picking and chosing the rules to live by, doing as little harm as they can. Whether that gives them a sense of purpose and worth, you would have to ask them.

      Or are you suggesting that we should slavishly follow one deity or thing and do everything they demand, to do right “in the eyes of the Lord”, so to speak, to gain that sense of purpose and worth? You’d have to believe they are 100% correct in all things which means you end up in all sorts of odd positions. For example, crazy christian extremists shoot Family Planning doctors and hate gay people, dedicated followers of certain Islamic sects blow up innocent people and themselves, rioting Hindus tear down mosques and kill their Islamic neighbours, and so on, for that sense of purpose and worth.

      Perhaps a better question is, why do you believe we need a sense of purpose and worth from a deity, however you want to define that term?

    • AllanJ says:

      12:58pm | 21/07/11

      @Mel.  Your stance is a fairly typical reaction to the abysmal failure of religious institutions to provide their adherents with anything of substance.  They insist on blind observance to a set of arbitrary, mindless and out-of-date dogma, rules and regulations which do nothing but enforce enslavement to their institutions.  Unfortunately, the central values which lie at the basis of many religions (of which “treat others as you want to be treated” is a good example) are largely obscured by this nonsensical and tyrannical mishmash.  I have not been near those houses of ill-repute for over 35 years.

      But this has little or nothing to do with an individual’s faith in God (except that it has served to destroy the faith of many).  Rather faith in God is a profoundly personal and private matter.  By separating myself from the negative baggage, as indeed many millions around the world have been doing in recent years, I have found that my consciousness of the existence and the presence of God has grown beyond measure.

      I am not here to tell you what to do.  But I do react when I see people trying to push their faith in the non-existence of God down the throats of others.

    • mel says:

      02:20pm | 21/07/11

      AllanJ, while you may believe it’s only “religious institutions” that do not provide anything of substance, I’d take it a step further and say neither do religions.

      Since you don’t ascribe to any of that religious piffle, how do you worship your deity and know what that deity wants from you so that your life purpose and worth? How do you know that your “consciousness of the existence and the presence of God has grown beyond measure” due to a deity? You see, you could just be choosing the bits that you like
      from other religions to suit yourself, or you are just making stuff up. How do you know it’s those little invisible pink unicorns expanding your consciousness?

      It’s an interesting sentence you wrote in your last paragraph: “I do react when I see people trying to push their faith in the non-existence of God down the throats of others”. Do you react when you see people push their faith in the existence of gods down the throat of others? Or is that OK? Is any faith better than no faith at all? There’s a faint whiff again of almost expecting people to have faith. Misery loves company, I suppose.

      And again for those who don’t understand atheism, I am not pushing my “faith in the non-existence of God ” but rather, I state my non-belief in the existence of gods. Two very different things.

      But the serious question is how you react when atheists ‘attack’ whatever version of a deity you want to worship: do you get angry, want to shoot them, burn them at the stake? I’m a little scared: religious types have always reacted badly to non-believers.

    • Dep says:

      10:36am | 18/07/11

      This argument is hopeless. Religion, by it’s very nature can be adapted and changed to suit any argument. It is a nasty and manipulative institution that seeks only to control. Science on the other hand is an explorative, evidence based method to find the truth.

      Look at the book of Mormon…...religion is utter rubbish.

    • Nafe says:

      01:34pm | 18/07/11

      I’m sorry, but toe Book of Morman and the Bible are two seperate books for 2 seperate Christian sects,

      Is’t like comparing Encyclopedia Bretanica with Wikipedia, Both informative but for different people.

    • Reggie says:

      11:30pm | 18/07/11

      Nafe ... “Both informative but for different people.”

      It seems you stretch the meaning of the word informative here. Do you give fairy-tales the same credence as gravity or air or bike-clips?

    • Traxster says:

      10:55am | 18/07/11

      I believe in a God…........
      I just don’t like what the religionists have done to him/her
      or in his/her name.

    • Budz says:

      12:00pm | 18/07/11

      What evidence are you basing your belief on god on?

    • James King says:

      11:51am | 21/07/11

      What make you think God is a he/she? Does gender really come into it?

    • Joseph says:

      11:02am | 18/07/11

      Has anyone seen my Colander hat?

    • Expat Ozzie says:

      02:45pm | 18/07/11

      I think God borrowed it for a fancy dress party with Satan and the rest of them, you know Budda, Apollo, Uranus etc… I here Mars is a little upset he copied his costume!! Could meen trouble :(

    • Shenanigans says:

      11:20am | 18/07/11

      I’m going to say that I’m a fan of the multiverse and the big bang theroy, read in to it a bit, hell do a semter long research assignment on it for college and you begin to realise it is the most plausible theroy of how life began. it was a random sequence of chaotic events, predetermined by nothing, it was the chance collision of matter and anti-matter. thus creating the universe and forcing large particles of matter to form together and form stars and planets. you can dispute this all you want, but why am i not allowed to think this happened when you believe in a ‘God’?

      The earth, through its billions of years of development has hit a point in its cycle (yes the earth cycles) basic proof is in the seasons)) where circustances and environments are perfect for sustainable life, you can deny this all you want but science has started to prove that life started from primitive single celled organisms (which continue to, population and growth wise dominate this planet). If you don’t believe that either, how is it that the human body itself, is capable of cell growth and repair? how is it that the body is made up of billions of cells that have the capcity to reproduce, change, move and function in coherent groups to form the human body? if we were made in the image of an omnipotent being, why would we need those cells for change and repair, would we not be perfect and not need to adapt to given circumstances?

      in short, cells are a perfect, if basic example of evolution through mutation and adaption, they are doing it constantly and have been doing so since they first appeared.

      Think of the brain has a massive computer, and just like every computer it occasionally glitchs out and generates an error report, this glitch being the absence of knowing how and why, the error report being religion.

    • Johnny atheos says:

      11:29am | 18/07/11

      “He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.”

      I have never understood the logic in giving God genitalia and that happens every time it is referred too as a “he” if “it” ever existed at all, why would it be a “he”. Every time God is mentioned as a “he” it just further evidence that the monotheistic representation of the unknown is a male invention.

    • PG says:

      11:59am | 18/07/11

      “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

      Feel free to replace “magic” with “God” or “religion”

    • P. Darvio says:

      12:05pm | 18/07/11

      Quote from author of article “And the Bible says that the Earth was made 6,000 years ago in the course of seven days. Anyone who believes that is crazy! “

      Christians, are required to believe that as a matter of faith, without question, its in their Bible…..they are also required to believe as per their Bible

      Killing Gays is OK
      Killing Children is OK
      Abortion is OK (Yes the Bible really does approve Abortion)
      Killing Wizards is OK - this means all Harry Potter fans
      Killing all Non-Believers is OK
      Rape, torture, murder, child abuse and genocide is OK.

      The Bible approves/encourages the genocidal slaughter of well over 5 billion people….that’s crazy but that’s what Christians are required to believe because its in their Bible – so stop picking and choosing what you want to believe in and start believing in the Bible and BIBLE LAW or don’t call yourself a Christian because clearly you are not from what you write.

    • Geoff - Brisbane says:

      01:27pm | 18/07/11

      Also if you call someone baldy, God will send two bears to murder 42 children. 2 Kings 2:23-24

    • Rhino says:

      12:13pm | 18/07/11

      One very poor attempt at the fine tuning argument, with a side of poor understanding of cosmological origins (you left the bit about big bang followed by the big crunch theory).

      It can be summed up as follows “These numbers are very exact, therefore god.”

      Pfft, tell your god (whatever brand) to pull his/her/its finger (or equivalent appendage) out and show he/she/it exists.

      In the mean time, your welcome to keep your delusions to yourself.

    • Mattb says:

      02:04pm | 18/07/11

      And start paying your taxes!...

    • Peter says:

      12:38pm | 18/07/11

      I know it is late and many others have said similar things hours earlier, but I cannot help it.

      It is hard to fathom how htis guy can be serious. I mean, he writes a decent book rieview in the OZ when given the chance, but this God justification stuff is hard to reconcile. isn’t it?

      Good on him for having a crack all the same.

      Will he even go close to changing one open & educated mind from Charles Darwin to a bronze age shepherd?

      Hardly.

    • Grant says:

      12:40pm | 18/07/11

      Oh my…

      As person who does not believe in the paranormal, such as; werewolves, ghosts or omnipotent invisible beings.

      I used to think that it was quite a smart that various religious groups (specifically christians in the United States) are attempting to legitimize their religion by agreeing with science that contradicts their texts.

      Attempting to fit religion in with science by creating pseudo theories, like Intelligent design and creationism to sit alongside and teach with evolution (tsk tsk) is a good way to keep it relevant.

      But, I think it is disingenuous of religious people to try and harmonise science and religion when religious texts make so many statements that can not be reconciled.

      (oh, and you can’t just say ‘the bible isn’t meant to be literal”)

      Just some highlights here, out of the thousands of fanciful statements made in your texts:

      - the age of the earth (6000years)
      - time it took to form the universe (7 days)
      - Adam and Eve
      - Jesus coming back from the dead (technically *zombie jesus*)
      - Noah’s ark
      - The earth is flat and has an end 5:26

    • Chris L says:

      02:54pm | 18/07/11

      “(oh, and you can’t just say ‘the bible isn’t meant to be literal”)” -

      That’s one thing I think about Grant. After all, if there are sections of the bible that aren’t literal truth and must therefore be interpreted, how can anyone know they have the correct interpretation?

      How can they push for laws to oppose abortion or euthenasia or blasphemy on a religious basis when they don’t even know for sure what the bible really has to say about it?

      After all, how do they know if any part of the bible isn’t metaphorical? If you can’t trust the first book to be accurate, what does that say about the rest?

    • Luce says:

      12:41pm | 18/07/11

      Its nice to see an apologist with a decent amount of scientific knowledge for once. However, this well structured argument is, in reality, a dressed up version of the ‘god of the gaps’ argument.

      To that I would say: for thousands of years people have been using god as an explanation for things we don’t understand, and as time goes on, more and more of these mysteries are being solved by science. With that in mind, it doesn’t seem wholly rational to hold on to this view when it is becoming more obsolete every day. The only explanation is the emotional fulfillment people need from religion, which is the real reason religion will take a long time to fade away.

      Also, check out the third poster down:
      http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/453/collection-of-atheist-and-atheism-motivational-posters/

    • Chris L says:

      03:08pm | 18/07/11

      Brilliant link Luce!

    • Sam says:

      12:49pm | 18/07/11

      Oh Roy, if you keep writing baseless articles like this I am very sure that you are well on your way to being invited to the front bench of The Coalitions Shadow ministry !!! 

      You will fit in really well with Tony Abbott, Christopher Pyne, and Julie Bishop, all God believing Nut jobs!

      The scary thing is that our next PM looks to be a man that would agree with everything you have written Roy !!  Tony believes that a GOD made us and the universe , I weep for our future.

    • "Bob" Dobbs says:

      12:53pm | 18/07/11

      The Universe and all its Wonder were brought into being by His Noodly Goodness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
      That is of course if you’re a Monsterist.

      I happen to fall more in line with the teachings of the Invisible Pink Unicorn - the perfect balance of faith and proof.
      I can prove he is invisible. This is scientific fact - no-one can and no-one has ever seen him.
      I have faith that he is pink.
      Plus, it requires a particularly powerful being to be both invisible AND pink… you try it some day.

      Read more at the church of the subgenius - salvation guaranteed or triple your money back.

    • mel says:

      01:56pm | 18/07/11

      I believe! I have always found the invisible pink unicorns’ ability to be both invisible and pink at the same time is the ultimate proof that they are the greatest beings in the universe. No-one can prove otherwise.

    • Grant says:

      02:29pm | 18/07/11

      Monsterist?

      You mean pastafarian

    • Seth Brundle says:

      01:02pm | 18/07/11

      I love it when religious people try to use science to justify their beliefs.  If they were to ever succeed, everything they stand for would be completely and utterly undermined. 
      With scientific evidence of God, you no longer have a religion, you have scientific fact.  At this point, there is no need for faith.  We all would believe, much like we believe in gravity. 
      God ceases to be a mythical figure, and instead becomes a super powerful alien entity who demands worship for no reason other than the fact that his ability to manipulate time and space are so much more powerful than our own.  Failure to worship results in extreme punishment.
      When God is known to exist, we have to ask how many others of his kind exist, and are any more powerful (and therefore more worthy of worship) than He is.  Has He been censoring their messages to us, or do they lack the insecurity that requires us to worship them?
      I am happy for the existance of God to be proved by scientific means.  It will get rid of religion altogether and we can focus on more important things.

    • Luce says:

      01:24pm | 18/07/11

      As I’ve said many times, thepunch comments need a ‘like’ button.

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:47pm | 18/07/11

      I was about to type the same thing Seth. Its cute when they attempt logic backflips or to take ownership of ‘Nature’ as evidence of God as the author has done here.

    • Reggie says:

      02:09pm | 18/07/11

      It’s interesting to wonder even IF God could be proven by science, how much of the current religious belief would turn out to be total and utter bullshit. 10% ... 50% ... 99%.

      ‘People?”

      “Where?”

      “Earth?”

      “What me give a DAMN?”  “You must be joking.”  “More coal!”

    • Dust 'n' Bones says:

      01:42pm | 18/07/11

      As an “Arm Chair Athiest” I found this article quite balanced, because usually the arguments are presented by one side or the other with total contempt for the opposing view.
      Athiests will always have an edge during discussions because of freaky religious kooks belonging primarily to Christianity and Islam. The whole Messiah based theology is ludicrous, but Dawkins and co really need to tone down their disregard for people with genuine faith, who are in general, peaceful people who wish no ill will on anyone else.
      The whole sham that is Islam and many of it’s outrageous practices, and the “science” drawn from Islamic teachings is way out of date doesn’t help the theologists, but Dawkins, really is a believer in science. He has “faith” in science. It’s another belief.
      By all means put your point of view out there, debate it, sell your books, then go home, because in the end it simply doesn’t matter. WHy spend your entire life trying to debunk another’s belief - you’ll forget to enjoy life.

    • Reggie says:

      04:00pm | 18/07/11

      Well…if only because of the damage the religious do by their indoctrination of others with absolute certainty of everything, all without one smidgen of actual proof. All avenues covered, including that last one.

      Teaching science allows a person to investigate and prove or disprove certain notions. Religion presents a slab of unchallengeable unprovable dross & guilt to burden an infant from the cradle to the grave. In fact it suggests that all effort in this life is futile and that death is the ultimate goal. No wonder conservative are so depressing.

      Your quiet appeal to allow all religion an easy passage suggests you are misrepresenting yourself as an “Arm Chair Atheist.”  You asked.

    • Dust 'n' Bones says:

      05:32pm | 18/07/11

      Reggie,
      You just proved my point!
      People need to chill out, check both sides of the argument (both sides are biased) and make a decision. There’s no way to stop people joining a religion and becoming over zealous, but each to their own. There are some very scientific tools that can deal with violent practitioners of any given faith.
      Believe or don’t believe, and you can stop and smell the roses occasionally. They smell the same to a religious nutter, as they do to a science freak.
      When I say Arm Chair Atheist, I mean I’ve made my decision. And I don’t care what they think. I’ll let them be. I’m not active in the debate, but I’ll listen to anyone who’ll speak rationally. Unfortunately that’s where most religious folk get a bit carried away, but they aren’t hurting me by believing whatever they believe.

    • Reggie says:

      11:20pm | 18/07/11

      Nothing of the sort D n B, I simply responded to your request.

      I’ve been to the barrier and back and I don’t bother with any of this either and I even listen in silence when someone wants to drone on about hellfire and the end of the world, thinking all along, how can anyone be so wasteful as to spend their time doing this, remembering all those verses and chapter number so they can quote them.

      You do know that they believe that if “God’s word” impinges on your ear-drums, there will be a magic interaction in your brain. This calls to mind how the Jews in Germany were not allowed to listen to German music because their listening might pollute it.  We’re surrounded by nutters.

      I wouldn’t know whether their chapter and verse are right or wrong and I am not even particularly impressed. Should I be.

      Here have your point if it’s that important to you, I just thought you were being a little provocative and there’s nothing I like better than addressing provocation. 

      Pardon me, but I still think you’re being less than forthright. smile

    • Stavros says:

      01:43pm | 18/07/11

      Of all the 1000s of Gods followed by man, there is zero physical evidence for the existence of any of them.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      01:54pm | 18/07/11

      The presumption lies with the null hypothesis.  God is an alternate hypothesis, and the burden of proof lies with the alternate.  Unless the alternate has been proved, assuming the null to be true is the only thing that makes scientific sense.  The only reasonable scientific position is that we must assume god does not exist and any scientist who thinks otherwise is living with a sh1t load of cognitive dissonance.

    • MeLogic says:

      01:57pm | 18/07/11

      If something is a fact, then belief doesn’t enter into it.  No amount of rhetorical discourse will ever prove something that is not fact.  It will only further the cause of the agents involved in the discourse.  Only objective observation will ever determine a fact.

      Religeous people say “A absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence.”  This piece of wonderful rhetoric, of advanced sophistry.  But is meaningless.

      Anything absent is not there, and it is not possible to prove an absence, because to prove that, you would have to know what WAS there BEFORE it became absent.  And to know that, would mean that it existed.  Therefore is it not possible to HAVE and absence of evidence.  All you can have is the presence of evidence FOR something.

      So, show me the objective, scientific evidence for the presence of a god or gods and I will believe in god or gods.

    • Rebecca says:

      02:36pm | 18/07/11

      That’s odd Roy, I don’t recall ever seeing you on BioLogos, Uncommon Descent or any of the other accommodationst sites! And so religion continues backpedalling on it’s claims for god.

    • Macon Paine says:

      02:51pm | 18/07/11

      Looks like the Demons are stirring.

      This is pretty shamefull stuff. Quote mining Carl Sagan as if he supports the god hypothesis when he was infact a self declared agnostic and thought religion was little more than a joke, take this quote from Sagan’s book “Contact”:

      “You see, the religious people—most of them—really think this planet is an experiment. That’s what their beliefs come down to. Some god or other is always fixing and poking, messing around with tradesmen’s wives, giving tablets on mountains, commanding you to mutilate your children, telling people what words they can say and what words they can’t say, making people feel guilty about enjoying themselves, and like that. Why can’t the gods leave well enough alone? All this intervention speaks of incompetence. If God didn’t want Lot’s wife to look back, why didn’t he make her obedient, so she’d do what her husband told her? Or if he hadn’t made Lot such a shithead, maybe she would’ve listened to him more. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why didn’t he start the universe out in the first place so it would come out the way he wants? Why’s he constantly repairing and complaining? No, there’s one thing the Bible makes clear: The biblical God is a sloppy manufacturer. He’s not good at design, he’s not good at execution. He’d be out of business if there was any competition. [Sol Hadden in Carl Sagan’s Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 285.]

      Or any of these other quotes from Carl Sagan about God:

      http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_CSagan.htm

      Ok so this quote is from a fictional novel but it gives a great insight into his thoughts on the God and the God botherers, and hey the OP has already quoted from his own fictional novel in support of his argument so I figure whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

    • Frank says:

      03:20pm | 18/07/11

      Good try Roy. But the scientific method of observation and experiment has many limitations. 1. It can only deal with material substances.  So it can not prove or disprove that there is a spiritual reality outside the material universe. 2. It can not prove or disprove a unique event of past history, such as creation by God, or the miracles and resurrection of Jesus, (or the career of Julius Caesar, or the place and date of your birthday).  Only historical records written by reliable reporters can give this information.  The Bible is a historical record. In it the Creator tells us what happened, and who He is.  Science can not prove or disprove its contents.

    • malohi says:

      04:03pm | 18/07/11

      Reliable reporters.
      The ones who heard burning shrubs talk.
      The ones who lived in the whales.
      The ones who partied with zombie Jesus.

      Science can disprove “histroical record” If I wrote down that my car is blue. It would not take much of an experiment to show my car is white.
      If a historical record said that the world was flat, you are saying science could not dispute it?
      If the record said that the american indians were Palestinians (Morman bastardisation- not worth googling)- we should accept it because it was by a reliable person…?

      Actually, you should give Mormonism a go, they would love your sense of logic.

    • Budz says:

      04:21pm | 18/07/11

      So Frank, why do you believe the historical account in the Bible, but not in other religious texts?

    • MeLogic says:

      04:48pm | 18/07/11

      It is not up to science to prove religeous claims.  It is up to the the people making the religous claims to prove they are factual. 

      It is not possible to prove something DOESN’T exist, only that it does.

    • Up The Abbottohs !! says:

      04:11pm | 18/07/11

      God is like the Carbon Tax.
      We are sick of hearing about the concept and thginking about the concept
      but some people just cannot stop talking about the concept. Its supporters cannot see past the concept and its critics would like the concept to disppear.
      GOD? Is that a type of backward DOG?
      Did the mass media make up God ?

    • wearestardust says:

      04:53pm | 18/07/11

      Is this a serious article, or an attempt to see how many logical errors and misunderstandings of the issues can be fitted into one article, along the lines of record attempts at seeing how many people can fit into a mini or a telephone booth?

      Just the highlights which I’ll rattle off using my autonomic nervous system.  We have the twin problems of the argument from incredulity, and the idea that if we can’t explain something, then any explanation (ie god did it) will do running through the whole article.  Williams may not believe the universe is 6,000 years old, but many Christians do including in Australia, and the idea has currency because of Christians, not atheists; and they would consider Williams to be ungodly.  So that’s the No True Scotsman fallacy brought into play. The bible can’t be used to prove the bible; that’s the logical error of begging the question (in its proper rather than colloquial sense).  Newton believed in astrology; should we believe that too?  Dawkins does not argue that Darwin’s theory removes the need for theology; just the need to posit god to explain complexity in biology.  It’s also not evolution but evolution with natural selection that was the breakthrough.  The Gould/Dawkins differences are about rates and primary causes of evolutionary change, which does not undermine materialistic evolution by natural selection as such in the slightest.  Coopting Sagan as a believer has already been pointed out.  Consciousness and free will are only inexplicable as a material process if one assumes it can’t be material, which is begging the question again.  Multiverses are a proposed response to fine tuning, not consciousness.  Dawkins may like the multiverse theory, but Dawkins is not the atheist Pope and multiverses aren’t necessary to address the fine-tuning problem.  And we close with the argumentum ad populam fallacy.

      Phew!  That’s about one logical error, misunderstanding or misstatement per (about) 150 words – counting the ‘twin problems’ once only and not each time they occur. And that’s before even getting on to any substantive issues (such as they are).

      The really annoying thing is that Williams trots these out as if they contribute something to the discussion.  Williams should know these have been thrashed out any number of times with no progress.  If Williams wants actually to move the debate forward, he needs to engage with the arguments rather than just bringing out the usual comfortable fallacies and sneering at Dawkins.  For example: why is this is a special case making it not a matter of arguing from incredulity?  Why in this case should we accept that god is the answer, rather than just saying “we don’t know”?  Exactly how does evolution fail to explain biological complexity and diversity – beyond just saying “I think god had a hand in it too”.  And how about making an argument without the usual (misunderstood) references to Dawkins.

    • LC says:

      07:17pm | 18/07/11

      Umm, ok.

      Now can you answer me one question? Who created god?

      If your answer is “God has always existed” how does that make any more sense than saying “The universe has always existed”?

    • stephen says:

      09:18pm | 18/07/11

      Nice question.
      But why not expect that God is a human construct, in that it/he/she is necessary, (historically speaking, that is ).
      But there is something else, and it is important.
      And it is the equation of natural forces with feeling, ( this is simplified though valid.)
      Nature is violent. The stars’ energy is. The caterpillar eats everything, and other things eats their young. This is worse than our break and enters and certainly worse than bad schooling, yet others want to disprove God quite because they do not understand the the difference between natural laws and what humanis actually is.
      We created Art.
      The natural world is an antagonist.
      It, and our natures, is our enemy.

    • TheRealDave says:

      08:53pm | 18/07/11

      What we need to do is start a grassroots movement that has one aim: When its Census time put NO RELIGION instead of putting Catholic or Anglican etc out of habit. If you don’t attend, don’t worship, don’t believe or couldn’t give a crap….then why help skew the stats by putting in one of the religions out of habit? Lets give a TRUE indication of the importance, or lack thereof, of religion in today’s modern and enlightened society.

    • Roy Williams says:

      10:16pm | 18/07/11

      I am Roy Williams, the author of the piece being discussed.  A few comments seem called for by way of reply.

      First, many thanks to Allan J, Gherkin and Nafe.  Your incisive contributions hit the nail on the head.  Thanks also to Blazes for your kind remarks.

      To Macon Paine: Rest assured, I read all readers’ posts, not just the nice ones. I realise that few, if any, of my arguments are entirely new – but nor are any of yours.  That’s no reason not to keep debating these momentous questions. We’ve all got to keep an open mind and keep searching.

      To Sam and Dodge: I don’t see why my political views are relevant, but, for the record, I’m usually a Labor voter and no admirer of Tony Abbott.  (I do think he cops unfair criticism for his Catholicism.)

      To all three of you – as well as the likes of wearestardust, Melogic, Just Sayin, Reggie, Rhino, SF, Dazedazza, Grade Teacher, Rossco, Mick, Maholi and Reggie the Monster – I understand where you are coming from.  I was a near-atheist myself until my mid-thirties.  But the more I started thinking about these issues – the discoveries and the limits of science, the claims of theology – the more firmly I became convinced that there must be a God.

      Of course there’s an element of faith in any religious belief.  “Proof” or “disproof” of God is impossible to a level of 100% certainty, or anything like it, if we are talking about proof in the manner of a mathematical equation.  Dawkins and I agree on that.

      But Dawkins and I also agree that it’s a valid exercise to examine the shades of probability – to draw inferences from the available evidence to seek to arrive at the best explanation (inductive reasoning).  (See the opening of The God Delusion.)

      Dawkins and many others interpret the scientific evidence one way (there almost certainly is no God), I and many others interpret the same scientific evidence another way (there most probably is a God). Most Christians also take into account other kinds of evidence – in particular, historical evidence.

      My overarching point: intelligent people can reasonably differ on these issues.  There’s certainly no need to get nasty.
      A number of posters have made comments or advanced arguments with which I don’t fully agree, but which raise interesting issues.  I’d encourage everyone to mull over them. 

      Among the posts in this category are those by Frank, Dust ‘n Bones, Luce, Grant, PG (I love that Arthur C Clarke quote too – I think its interesting that 2000 years later none of Jesus’ reported miracles are susceptible to explanation by modern-day science), Shenanigans, Traxter, Luke (if you’re interested in pursuing the matter further, there’s a huge amount of theological writing on the mysterious question of God’s omnipotence), Mark, Elphaba, Shelly, Stephen, Peter, downtowndave, Chris L and Simple Simon.

      Kevin, Greg and Erick ask, in a nutshell: why believe in the Christian God as opposed to the god/s of other religions and/or a generic Creator?  Why is the Christian God appropriate to worship? 

      These are perfectly valid questions.  I truly don’t mean to be flippant or simplistic but the short answer is: Jesus of Nazareth, the astonishing figure whose life, death and (reported) resurrection inspired the creation of the Christian church and the writing of the New Testament.

      That said, I’m not saying that Christianity is the only way to God.

      Finally, Erick challenges my invoking of Occam’s razor.  In substance, Erick poses the ancient question: Who or what created God?  The best answer I can give is this. 

      God is indeed unexplainable if conceived of in earthly terms, like some kind of ultra-sophisticated living creature. God – the First Cause – must be accepted as something unexplainable (unexplainable in the sense of not itself having had a cause).  In other words, God must be taken as a given.  At least for me, the concept of God is none the less coherent for that.  One is driven to a supernatural conception of God precisely because any other conception is far-fetched in the extreme.

    • Rhino says:

      08:09am | 19/07/11

      Let me restate myself and sum up your comments:

      Its all too hard to understand and I don’t think we will find out all the answers, therefore God.

      Pfft.

    • Nafe says:

      10:05am | 19/07/11

      Good post,

      If I can paraphrase a teaching from Paster Greg Laurie when he says God is Unexplainable. You can not adequatly explain God and his power in any way, God is Omnipetant, He is always there, he knows all, he is all soverign also meaning he is the one true King,

      If you believe(as I do) in the Holy Trinity, Being That God is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit” meaning God is One person, nin 3 forms Simultaniously. There are a number of Scriptures that Greg Laurie gives as examples of this.

      There is no way of giving credible examples of this, you could use Water, Ice and Steam as an example of one item in 3 forms but water cant be in all 3 forms simultaniously.

      God being greater than all our imaginations of Him makes explaining God that much harder.

      As Roy said, there is faith required to believe in God, some people believe, some don’t, It is not my job or any Christians Job to judge non believiers. In My view the only person who can Judge is God himself.

      But whatever you believe, condecsending remarks or pure nastyness on either side does not assist any way in the argument.

      Sure things cant be definitivly proven on either side of the debate, I have faith, that makes me happy, what is wrong with that?

      If your Athiesim makes you happy, again, There is nothing wrong with that. Its a free choice to make and as i said before, there is only one way to find out who is right or not, and that will be when you leave this earth.

    • M. says:

      11:36am | 19/07/11

      @ Roy Williams - As someone who is not religious at all but certainly not a radical Atheist - your points I find are interesting but fundamentally flawed…..I think a key point which people like me find hard to move on from, you stated in your post “Most Christians also take into account other kinds of evidence – in particular, historical evidence”..

      Im not sure how any modern day religious person can claim this…...historical evidence has clearly proven that there have been a great many civilisations that have pre-dated any claim made by modern religions (christianity, islam, etc etc)....either versions of the bible or even the Koran do make very few references to the teachings of say the Egyptian empire which worshipped the sun (Ra) as its major god…..similiarly - none of the teachings discovered of any Egyptian religious strain mention anything about Christian teachings…...keep in mind in comparsion - modern day society (i.e. BC as claimed) is but a tiny portion of the period of time the Egyptian or Greek empires dominated the globe….Egypitian religious faith has many more “runs on the board” than any current religion…..

      I have no problem with people of religious faith believing - this is their choice and so long as we exist (and have the mental ability to do so) people will believe in what they want to believe - what I dont agree with is blind faith and the dismissal of other possibilities…..yes god may exist - however there is an equal chance he may not…...

    • wearestardust says:

      01:27pm | 19/07/11

      Roy: thank you for the kind comment; however I’m not sure that saying “I’m across the debates, but [by implication] chose to go with the usual suspects that are broadly considered by everyone other than those who are already convinced to be logical errors and misunderstandings rather than engaging with new or substantive issues” is a better look.

      And please, if you plan to continue to write on this stuff, familiarise yourself with the content, not just the pops, and please please stop referring to Dawkins.  There are some atheists who haven’t even read Dawkins themselves but they get by wink.  Dawkin’s contribution to knowledge is in evolutionary biology.  In TGD he is mainly a populariser, especially insofar as the substance is concerned.  So it doesn’t matter, for example, whether you agree with Dawkins that absolute knowledge is impossible.  The important thing is whether you agree on this with the general scientific consensus on method post-Popper. 

      While we can’t know anything absolutely, that doesn’t mean we can’t treat in practice some things as fact (how reasonably skeptical can one be, for example, about which end of a pen the ink comes out?).  Conversely, absence of complete certainty is not warrant to give serious consideration to just anything (when a relative or friend calls, how much serious consideration should one give to the possibility that it’s actually Hastur the Unspeakable, half brother of Cthulhu, speaking through a handkerchief over the microphone?).

      The point is, knowledge comes with a range of likelihoods from 0% to 100%, not inclusive.  You explicitly say this but the arguments don’t follow it.  So: on the whole, the key underpinning to the atheist is not a stack of evidence against god.  It’s absence of a stack of pursuasive evidence for god, combined with the view that one ought not just sign up to any view whatsoever sans evidence.  This is the thrust of Russell’s celestial teapot argument (which writers like Keith Ward seem to have an almost obtuse need to misunderstand). 

      btw - I note the comment on relying on ‘historical evidence’.  That’s another discussion. But it’s not finding the best evidence in science, either. Time for a another, closing, wink-smiley, I think wink

    • Macon Paine says:

      02:06pm | 19/07/11

      Roy, I was rude for wrongly labelling you a clown so I apologise for that (bad day at work). In your reply though I have noticed a few interesting comments you made that perhaps you can elaborate on. Let me also state for the record that I am agnostic and if I was to believe in a god it would be a god inline with the theory of Deism as this makes the most sense to me from simple observation of the cosmos. The concept of your god makes little sense to me as Carl Sagan put it succinctly:
      “The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying… it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.”
      1) “But the more I started thinking about these issues – the discoveries and the limits of science, the claims of theology – the more firmly I became convinced that there must be a God.”
      What you’re saying is that you are looking for absolutes. In science and life there is no absolute, nothing is 100%. This also means there is no perfection. What I find odd about your statement is that you talk about the claims of theology as though this is somehow a good thing. Theology makes claims it cannot support, it promises people things it cannot prove, it makes people do things out of fear of the consequences of not doing them (which is similar to using threats and intimidation) and as Im sure your aware, theology throughout history has made (and continues to make) people do horrific things to each other in the name of this god or that one. This is not particularly good nor is it even honest infact it is dishonest to tell people certain things are true and that this is what you must believe, especially when you cant support these claims with evidence (or the reality contradicts them).
      2) “Dawkins and many others interpret the scientific evidence one way (there almost certainly is no God), I and many others interpret the same scientific evidence another way (there most probably is a God).”
      Then perhaps your reasoning is faulty. Dawkins has made it clear, if evidence arises that supports the god hypothesis, he’s prepared to change his opinion, if evidence continues to arise that does not support the god hypothesis are you prepared to change yours? At what point do you say to yourself “this doesn’t make a lot of sense”? So far the scientific evidence supports the “no god” hypothesis, If we are able to explain virtually everything (that we can so far explain) without the need to invoke god, then if there is a god, what does that then reduce his/her role to?
      3) “My overarching point: intelligent people can reasonably differ on these issues.  There’s certainly no need to get nasty.”
      Of course they can differ on these issues but not all claims have equal value. Sure, all people have the right to have their own opinion but this doesn’t legitimise their claims. It’s somewhat illogical to believe in something without evidence for it and as Sagan puts it, it’s like claiming to have an invisible dragon in your garage yet offering no evidence and every test we conduct to try and discover it fails yet you keep insisting it’s there. The evidence is pretty clear and so far does not support the god hypothesis. That doesn’t mean we should dismiss god but it certainly casts significant doubt on the claims of all the worlds religions and invalidates many of them.
      4) “I truly don’t mean to be flippant or simplistic but the short answer is: Jesus of Nazareth, the astonishing figure whose life, death and (reported) resurrection inspired the creation of the Christian church and the writing of the New Testament. That said, I’m not saying that Christianity is the only way to God.”
      This makes no sense. You tell people why they should believe in a christian god (because of Jesus), then turn around and say that Christianity (ie the following of Jesus) is not the only way to God. So your undermining your own argument. Why believe in this Jesus and God if its not the only way to God? Why would the one true god have mutlitple ways to worship him? Why allow such confusion and mayhem? Only one of the religions can be right (if any), so you should have the courage of your convictions to state that you think Christianity (which group?) is the only way to god.
      Your last paragraph is addressed in Sagan’s Contact:
      “Anything you don’t understand, Mr. Rankin, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it.” Don’t turn off your mind Roy. Peace.

    • sylvie says:

      10:55pm | 18/07/11

      @Roy Williams .......... what an impressive response to all

    • michael j says:

      12:43am | 19/07/11

      Every one misses the point again what type of wine does Jesus make at his mates wedding ,,a red or a white ,im going for a white ,, cause tho there is no mention of fish at the wedding ? Jesus did have a fair association with fish
      And to tell the truth white wine is actually much better on it’s own without fish,,

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:51am | 19/07/11

      Dear Roy Williams, sorry this post is so long but I want to thank you for your Article and your kind response to those who posted, and also share what God has convicted me of ... I agree with you whenever there is doubt it needs to be resolved the same as differences ...saying we agree to disagree is not the answer and God tells us this is not the way to go,  because in the end it causes division and lack of Love and acceptance,  we are to bring them to Him because He knows there will be differences in the Church and the only way they can be resolved is by His Truth.

      I affirm your statement Roy,  that the Universe must have been created, with Mankind in view, by a supernatural being of unfathomable wisdom and power. To wit: God. ...This is 100% confirmed in the Scriptures… Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith The LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else (KJV)

      Like you Roy I don’t argue but affirm God’s Truth as I share the Scriptures and I also correct and warn when needed as God asks us to do both male and female, as well as witnessing of His great Love for all mankind.

      In this Scripture God is also affirming that there is True Science but anything that opposes His Truth is false Science and is worldly meaning coming from man’s own understanding and so it is to be rejected…
      1 Timothy 6: -20 Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of Science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

      I believe as Christian Scientists have proven that those who propagate both Evolution and the Big bang theory have no evidence to support their claims,  they have no proof as to how the earth came into existence from nothing, they have also been unable to produce sustainable life from nothing,  all their experiments have failed and they do not have proof for their claim of the age of the earth… Some of Darwin’s Theory of natural selection supports Creation in that the fittest survive, but the claim that species adapt into different kinds is unproven,  they have never found evidence of this both in the past and now.
      Unlike you Roy Williams I was a full Atheist at least in my understanding for 30 years except for a period of time when I was a child and Jesus was my friend, but He was taken from me or so I thought when I was taught Evolution at School and it was affirmed strongly by my agro Atheist Mother. It was not till many years later that the Lie of Evolution was revealed to me by God in His word and I have no doubt that Creation and Evolution and the Big Bang are not compatible so as a Christian we can’t believe in both, because the sequences of Creation which is not just an allegory,  when viewed in context proves that the Universe as we know it could not have evolved or come from the Big bang.

      I have had a very hard life and suffered much, some due to my own mistakes and sins but I have experienced amazing Truth of God’s Love and power in my life that can’t be explained by man or duplicated so they are not counterfeit but genuine, these include Miraculous healings and signs and wonders and I’m not a Pentecostal or did I ask for them but many prayed for me ad continue to do so and although I’m still disabled from a genetic defect from birth God strengthens me greatly and I rejoice in each day that He gives me but I look forward to being with Him face to face in Heaven.

      What is really awesome is that my Heavenly Father Loves me greatly and that Jesus who is my Best Friend suffered immensely even knowing I would claim He didn’t exist and would hurt and slander Him, and He did this so I could walk in victory and without fear of punishment and wonderfully The Holy Spirit continues to comfort me and give me times of refreshing when needed and Teaches me all things according to God’s Truth,,, The Godhead is truly amazing and my response is overwhelming Thankfulness,because as evil as I was,  He chose to rescue me and uplift me in His Love.

      A Link that you may find very uplifting Roy http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/aqoo/  - God bless you greatly - Christian Love Anne

    • Nafe says:

      10:09am | 19/07/11

      I Like this Post.

    • mel says:

      05:39pm | 21/07/11

      Your god, Anne, what happened! If your story is true, how do you go from being an atheist (when I assume you believed the earth is 4.5 billion years old or thereabouts) to believing that the earth is 6000 years old? How did you cope with the cognoitive dissonance? How do you manage “not believing” something you believed previously? I can only assume it by sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting “La-la-la-la” continuously. There is so much physical and archaeological evidence that contradicts your current viewpoint, how else could you do it?

      Don’t tell me you believe in a worldwide flood too?

    • Frank says:

      09:17am | 19/07/11

      Budz says:04:21pm | 18/07/11

      “So Frank, why do you believe the historical account in the Bible, but not in other religious texts? “. 

      Excellent question Budz. 
      Answer:  no other religious text is based on so much actual history as the Bible. Mostly they are like books of philosophy.
      Most of the main places mentioned in Bible history are real places we can visit today.
      Most of the main events recorded from Abraham (2000 BC) onwards can be checked against secular historical sources outside the Bible.
      The Gospel of Luke for example meticulously provides accurate lists of dates, personages and titles and events which have been checked by secular historians and found amazingly accurate.
      Archeology is gradually uncovering more and more evidence of the accuracy of Bible history. 
      The key historical event on which the whole of the Bible depends is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  Nothing like this is recorded for any other religion. There is much supporting evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. a. The Christian Day - Sunday, the Lord’s Day, of his resurrection. The first Christians were Jews, who worshipped on Saturday, the last day of the week.. Why did they change to meeting on the first day of the week?
      b. the Christian Church. suddenly began about 30AD in the face of fierce opposition. Why were the previously cowardly apostles willing to give their life to proclaim the resurrection of Jesus if they did not believe it?
      c. The Christian book. The New Testament, of which we have thousands of early copies, contains several independantly written eyewitness accounts of those who claimed they saw Jesus alive again. The whole New Testament would never have been written if its writers did not believe it.
      d. Christian experience. People like Anne, and me, and millions of others in every generation have been greatly blessed and improved by our personal relationship with the living Lord Jesus Christ.
      Try it for yourself.  “Lord Jesus, if you are really alive, please help me to know you.”  If you sincerely seek him, he will reveal himself to you, through the Bible, and through his Holy Spirit directly to your own heart.
      and Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Creator himself, and he endorsed the historical accuracy of the whole Bible from Genesis to Malachi. His Spirit guided those who wrote all that, plus those who wrote the whole New Testament. 
      No other book can compare with the Bible.

      Roy, Jesus did say He was the only way to God.  He also was a six day, 6000 year creationist, endorsing the historical accuracy of many events in Genesis 1-12.  He knows and speaks all truth.  You can see from the hostile responses to your article that it does the cause of Christ no good to try to compromise with secular scientific myths of a big bang and millions of years.  Better be totally upfront and proclaim the whole message of a supernatural creation in 6 days.  The mockers won’t hate you any more, and it will more clearly communicate what God has actually told us about where we come from.

    • Paul Murray says:

      02:23pm | 19/07/11

      Massacre of the innocents: never happened.
      Travelling to your place of ancestry to have census took: Nuh uh.
      Nazareth: didn’t exist. A pope actually founded the town to bring geography into line with NT fiction.
      Herod at 4BC: timeline all screwy.

      The list goes on.

      Why does the apostle Paul never quote Jesus? Why does he never cite Jesus’ teachings as an authority, but only ever “Scripture” (ie, the OT) and “revelation”? Why does he always talk about the coming of Jesus as something in the future, never as an event that happened a few years ago over in Palestine?

      Again: the list goes on.

    • IC-1101 says:

      09:51am | 19/07/11

      I find it as confusing as to why some people speak as if the Bible and other Holy Scriptures are fact as to the question of where we came from and why we’re here.

      To Atheists - Accept, embrace and understand, because not everyone has the capacity or comprehension to truly understand the Universe.

      To those of faith - Stop speaking like as if the Bible is fact, that God is spelled with a capital H, and please, for the love of everything that is good and pure, PLEASE, PLEASSSSSSE, Keep God AWAY from cosmology and physics.  As a passionate, aggressive Atheist, it’s all I have at the moment, and I am really sick of everyone associating everything with a God.

      Can’t we just accept that some things can never be truly understood?

      An inability to understand DOES NOT equate to the existence of a God.  Keep your man made tripe OUT and AWAY from cosmology.

    • Frank says:

      10:53am | 19/07/11

      Dear IC-1101
      You say we do not understand the universe.  That makes you an agnostic: one who “does not know”

      Yet you confusingly also say you are a passionate aggressive atheist.  An atheist says “I know there is no God”.  To make that claim you have to know and understand everything about everything.  Or maybe God could be hidden in area you don’t understand?

      Which are you?

      I know the God of the Bible is real, and the Bible is an accurate record of past history,  and accurate prediction of a future life of either hell or heaven. Jesus said so.  Can you be sure that is not correct?  What if you are wrong?

    • Aidan says:

      11:22am | 19/07/11

      @Frank

      IC-1101 is actually an agnostic atheist

      Atheism and theism relate to belief.
      Agnosticism and gnosticism relate to knowledge.

      You say you know the God of the Bible is real, which makes you a gnostic theist.

    • IC-1101 says:

      12:09pm | 19/07/11

      @Frank

      I know there is no God, because it is man made, and I know that IF something DID create the Universe, it would be TOTALLY beyond any realm of comprehension you or I could possibly have for anything.  I do NOT believe in God, that is, the God created by man as defined by man and as worshiped by man.  I do not associate any being creating the Universe as a God, or even as a being.

      To me, The Big Bang is as much a God and a creator as what your God is to you.

      If I am wrong, by your Bible and your God, I will be forgiven at the gates of heaven.  And I will go to heaven because:
      A. I am a good person
      B. I don’t break the law
      C. I respect my neighbour
      D. I work hard, pay my taxes and respect the rules of society.

      So me being right or wrong really wouldn’t have any influence on my entrance to your heaven.  That’s based on what the Bible says.

      You don’t “know” the Bible is real.  That would negate “faith”, which is to believe in something you cannot prove.  So, you don’t “know” the God of the Bible is real.  You BELIEVE the God of the Bible is real.  To say you “know” the Bible is real is to say you’re an extremist, completely and utterly oblivious to anything that compromises and/or negates that existence of a God.

      Do you see the contradiction in your argument?

      I consider myself to be an Atheist (an agnostic atheist is probably closer) because I see no place for a God, because I know that what is outside of what we already know to be incomprehensible to the human mind.  If we cannot comprehend it, how can one associate the idea of a God—that is, the idea of humans, humans being beings with comprehension of the idea of a God—with what is deemed to be incomprehensible?

      That is how I KNOW God has no place in the Universe, because OUR idea of God fits within our own comprehension of space, time, existence, mass etc. 

      Once all of those things go out the window, everything we know, think, do, everything, INCLUDING the idea of a God, has no place.

      God is said to be derived around our laws, our thoughts, mind, ability to solve.  What we consider to be possible in this universe is not possible outside this universe.  That includes the idea of a God, and that also negates any idea you may have that says God works in mysterious ways and is outside our realm of comprehension.  That is again you thinking and assuming, and you cannot associate that with what is outside our realm of comprehension.  Everything you say goes right out the window.  Outside a universe doesn’t need to be defined, because the laws don’t dictate definition, because there is no time, mass, energy.  NOTHING.

      Accept that and move on.  There’s more to life than, rather masochistically, loving a supernatural being that you know can reign painn, suffering and consequence if you don’t obey its laws.

      I obey only one set of rules: The Laws of Relativity.  Outside of those laws, my mind and comprehension seize to exist.

    • GrahaminAdelaide says:

      01:53pm | 19/07/11

      And it boils down to the same old yawn: I can’t find an answer so I’ll make up one, to wit, God. So much for being scientific.

    • Paul Murray says:

      02:10pm | 19/07/11

      “For a start, the accounts of Creation in the Book of Genesis cannot be read literally and were not intended by their authors to be read literally.”

      LOL. And you know this how, exactly? Paul, who said we were all “in Adam” when he sinned clearly belived in a literal Adam - christianity makes no sense at all without original sin, which we all inherit by bodily descent from Adam. In fact, pretty much everyone belived in it literally - and had no difficulty doing so - until a couple of centuries ago when science (geology, archaeology, etc etc) demonstrated that it simply can’t be true.

      Your points are nonsense. You didn’t even notice that “before the Big Bang, there was literally nothing” and “Time itself also came into being at the Big Bang.” contradict one another.

      “It seems fairly well-established that the first single-celled prokaryotes appeared about 3.85 million years ago. But where did they come from?”

      Well *obviously*, beardy magic sky-man just poofed them into existence.

      I could go on, but these are some of the lamest, most tired arguments on the ‘net.

      Unimpressive.

    • Mitch says:

      02:15pm | 19/07/11

      I’m sorry but HOW did you get published again?!...this is easily the most pathetic piece of writing I’ve seen…apologetic much? Stick with facts…not the God of the Gaps. I’m also seeing a trend with your writing Roy…I take it that “The God Delusion” doesn’t sit well with you.

    • Frank says:

      02:19pm | 19/07/11

      Dear IC-1101
      You have a (very common) misunderstanding of what the Bible says about how we get into heaven.  It is not by being a good person. Why would Jesus need to die on the cross in that case? Jesus came to save (only) sinners. We have all sinned.  No one is perfect. Only Jesus.  In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) Jesus explained God’s standard of perfect goodness. If you hate someone, it is counted as murder by God (commandment 6). If you look at a woman lustfully, it is counted as adultery (commandment 7).  If you fail to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, you have broken commandment 1 and 2. The commandments were given to reveal how much we have all sinned, not to show us how to get to heaven by being good.
      So if you read Paul’s letter to the Romans, it explains that this is why we all deserve to die.  The wages of sin is death.  But this is why God the Father sent Jesus, because He loves us and wanted to save us.
      Jesus said he came to give his life as a ransom for many. When Jesus died, he was taking our place, suffering what we deserve, as our substitute. That explains how God can be just and punish all sin, yet forgive everyone who believes in Jesus. Then Jesus rose again, to prove the price was fully paid, and prepare a place for us in heaven.   
      This means the only way to escape the hell we all deserve, and go to the heaven none of us deserves, is to trust in Jesus as our Substitute. the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
      Please trust in Jesus now. I want you to go to heaven so I can meet you there. and God wants you too.

    • Paul Murray says:

      02:39pm | 19/07/11

      Indeed. God doesn’t care what you have done - gassing six million Jews is the same as saying “Damn!” when you stub your toe. He doesn’t even notice the distinction. All he cares about is your *allegiance*. You must accept him as your lord. You must believe and commit your life.

      “Allegiance”, “Lord” - these are political terms. God is a king, and as far as King God is concerned everyone is either his “child” or his enemy. His children live in his house forever, and his enemies he sends to the gulag. Hell is simply a political prison for dissidents against the iron rule of God. He tortures his enemies forever, because that’s the kind of thing that patriarchal despots do.

    • Dr. Time says:

      02:28am | 20/07/11

      What an utter silly notion perpetual sin is.

    • IC-1101 says:

      08:44am | 20/07/11

      You want me to believe in your Jesus so I can go to heaven?  So in other words, you want me to believe in someone I know can reign pain and consequence on me if I don’t give in and believe in them and the sacrifice made for my sins?  You essentially want me to love someone I am also supposed to fear.

      That is defined as “sadomasochism”.

    • JK says:

      02:30pm | 19/07/11

      Yaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnn. Trite. Banal. Bleh.

      “If the Universe is just a one-off fluke, it ought to be chaotic, featureless and dead.” - It will be, if you keep it up.

      “It becomes necessary to account for the overwhelming appearance of design in the Universe” - Why? What appearance of design? If God designed us he did a pretty crap job.

      “It’s also necessary to account for the uniqueness of Mankind as a sentient, conscience-possessing species, capable of mulling over the deepest questions of ethics and philosophy.” - Neanderthals may have had even larger brains than ours, did they have a soul?

      “All life on Earth is based on DNA, yet DNA itself is a staggeringly complex substance.” - DNA consists of two long polymers of simple units called nucleotides. These two strands run in opposite directions to each other and are therefore anti-parallel. Attached to each polymer molecule is one of four types of molecules called nucleobases. Mind-bogglingly complex, isn’t it?

      “..uniquely human faculties of cognition and conscience are, to put it mildly, hard to explain in a purely Darwinian framework. Likewise religious faith, our uncanny sense of “self”, and free will.” - Dolphins know they exist and can differentiate ‘self’ from others. As for free will, try bending a cat’s will to your own.

      “It doesn’t convince me, for a number of reasons. For one thing, it flouts Occam’s razor” - Lex parsimoniae is a principle that generally recommends selecting the that of the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions, when the hypotheses are EQUAL IN ALL OTHER RESPECTS; for instance, if all the hypotheses can SUFFICIENTLY EXPLAIN the observed data. God hardly constitutes a sufficient explanation for the universe and its beautiful simplicity, and falls far short of equality with current scientific understandings of the natural world.

      “That brings me to the other possible explanation…the Universe must have been created…” - Not understanding one possible explanation is no cause to jump to the other with any certainty. Lack of evidence does not constitute evidence to the contrary. I could just as easily claim that because there’s no evidence god created us we can only have evolved from self-replicating polymers (a much better explanation, though not lent support simply by the lack of support for your contentions).

      “It’s the one which has been instinctively favoured by billions of people down the centuries” - A thinly veiled appeal to populism. The vast majority of people in ages past accepted as fact that the sun rotated around the earth, centre of the universe. Were they right?

      But that is a gigantic “if” (how could anyone in our Universe ever possibly know?)” - Exactly! How could anyone ever possibly claim to know that a supernatural being had or has anything to do with our universe and its existence.

      I hope that my picking so many holes in your transmundane tapestry has you put mind to the fabric of perception and evidence, with the effect that you, in future, weave from a more thoughtful thread. We continue to broaden our knowledge of the universe, and claim not to hold all the answers. Yet. We have, however, progressed along the path to enlightenment enough to cast asunder the peurile urge to cling to the comforting notion that we aren’t “just a chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet orbiting round a very average star in the outer suburb of one among a hundred billion galaxies”, to call on Hawking.

    • Mark says:

      03:08pm | 19/07/11

      Serious misunderstanding of Occam’s razor by the writer.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

      “A common feature of all four multiverse levels is that the simplest and arguably most elegant theory involves parallel universes by default. To deny the existence of those universes, one needs to complicate the theory by adding experimentally unsupported processes”

      That is the multiverse is the simplest solution

    • Andrew says:

      04:41pm | 19/07/11

      I think it’s a bit rich to assume we’re the most important things in the universe. Even if we’re just looking at Earth, it seems more reasonable to think God’s favourite children are beetles or E. Coli. Or, perhaps whales are and God created humans as a punishment for their own faithlessness and immorality.
      Uniformitarianism isn’t an argument for God. If the fundamental rules stay the same then God’s no more needed than a kennel for pet rocks. I’m no cosmologist, but I think you skipped over the most important issue: whether the fundamental laws and natural constants could be differrent (in Einstein’s words “did God have a choice in creating the universe?”). Again, if there could be no choice, then God becomes superfluous.
      Also, you ignore the most important of Dawkin’s arguments, the “crane vs Magic Sky Hook”. Human intelligence is a complex thing that developed from more simple things like a crane rests on its base, but divine intelligence just pops out of nowhere like a Magic Sky Hook. If you need intelligence to create even things as simple as the standard model particles, where could God have come from?
      Finally, I’d like to see some evidence that people argued over the literal nature of genesis before all the geologists and biologists started coming up with inconvenient evidence.

    • Waynevan says:

      07:23pm | 19/07/11

      Problem is I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to truly approach science objectively. Believers (in any faith) will approach their science from the belief that there is a God, whilst atheists (as much as they try to deny it) will approach it from the belief that there is no God and inevitably these beliefs will influence their research and its outcomes.
      Lee Strobel wrote an excellent book “The Case for a Creator” where he interviews 12 world leaders in scientific fields who through their research have concluded that the universe is not possible without some form of design. Not all of these scientists are Bible - believing Christians which perhaps lends their theses more weight as they aren’t pushing some faith-based agenda.

    • Cly says:

      08:10pm | 19/07/11

      OMG that means unicorns and mermaids are real to!! WOOHOO!

    • Stephen says:

      01:00am | 20/07/11

      Wait, wait, wait… So the the whole point of this article is essentially “It all seems too complex and we don’t understand everything yet. Therefore it must be the result of something that is the ultimate complexity that we know absolutely nothing about”.... Riiiiiiight….
      I also like his statement that “the accounts of Creation in the Book of Genesis cannot be read literally and were not intended by their authors to be read literally” Really? Because I’m pretty sure it’s autors did believe that. In fact most people would have believed that 2 thousand years ago because there simply was no better explanation at the time. Carbon dating was still a few years away!

    • Dr. Time says:

      06:21am | 20/07/11

      Sacred texts lose their authority if we are to view them metaphorically. Some of the dictums may be wise. The morals and parables may be excellent lessons, but if we are to view them metaphorically then we lose all claims to the literal existence of God. If the big fish is a metaphor for Jonah’s doubts, why can’t God then, who speaks to Jonah, be a metaphor for Jonah’s conscience? Once we abandon any pretension of literalism, then talk of God or Allah must itself be interpreted metaphorically. Likewise, talk of heaven and hell, and talk of Jesus as the son of God, yet another metaphor. A metaphor for what one may ask? Well, we know “God” can’t be a metaphor for God. It would be a metaphor of something we can take literally ie, something secular. Whatever the metaphor is, a parent figure, evolutionary forces - “God’” would stand for something non-God like.
      On a metaphorical reading of the bible, the authority of the advice does not come for above and beyond; but from us.
      You can’t have it both ways Roy Williams. Nice own goal.

    • Frank says:

      07:55am | 20/07/11

      Yes Stephen and Dr Time. You are right. The Bible is a historical record, not a book of metaphors. It records what actually happened, in creation, a global flood, the calling of Abraham, the history of Israel, and the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Son of God and Saviour. It is also predicts a future end of this world as it is, a final judgment for all, and heaven and hell.  Jesus is God’s provision of forgiveness and eternal life for all who will believe in him. What a wonderful Gospel (Good News)!  God wants everyone to receive Him. None of these past or future events can be proven or disproven by science. Science can only observe and work on material things in the present.

    • Dr. Time says:

      11:53pm | 20/07/11

      @ Frank.
      I can agree with the bible was never intended for metaphorical interpretation. My point I was making, as you could read, that anything other than a literal interpretation of the bible, koran or any other sacred text undermines it’s authority as the supposed word of the God concernded for that particular text.
      With literal interpretation, you are left with many many glaring inconsistancies, contradicitions and plain inaccurate information (more than happy to expand and list what I have mentioned if you wish). If the bible (old & new testament) are the cornerstone texts of the many schools of Christianity, and God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent why is it thoroughly riddled with error and inaccuracy?
      Christianity has never managed to catch up from the paradigm shift of obsure cult to Imperial religion status of the Roman Empire, no matter how it tries to legitimise itself. 
      What a shame thousands of years of classical civilisation, the intellectual persuits of classical Greece and searching for perfection through the advancement of civilation and the desire to improve the quality of life was replaced by the spiritual and religious perfection that could only be attained through religious instruction and church dogma. They don’t call the near on thousand year period after the fall of the Roman civilization the ‘Dark Ages’ for nothing.

    • Frank says:

      09:39am | 21/07/11

      Dr Time

      Yes I wonder what are these “many many glaring inconsistancies, contradicitions and plain inaccurate information” you are referring to. 
      I know there are lists on various atheist websites. There are also answers to them on various Christian websites.

      But the message of the Bible is quite simple and plain:  Creation by God, sin of Adam, curse on creation, sin and death passed on to all humans, global flood, call of Abraham, exodus of Israel from Eqypt, history of Israel, birth of Jesus, his death and resurrection, the expansion of the Christian message.  Forgiveness of sins to all who believe in Jesus who died for them and rose again, a coming judgement when Jesus returns, a new perfect creation known as heaven, and also hell for those who continue to rebel. 
      You can be saved from the judgement we all deserve just by simple faith in Jesus, without having to know every single detail of the Bible.  Don’t you want to go to heaven?  Surely no sensible person would want to go to hell. Don’t let the devil fool you with with the same question he asked Eve:  “Did God really say…..?”

    • mel says:

      01:19pm | 22/07/11

      Frank, you actually haven’t answered the particular question most of us non-believers need answered. Why do we want to be saved? Shouldn’t we be adults and own up to our supposed ‘sins’? Why fob it off onto someone else, some sacrificial scapegoat? Don’t christians take responsibility for their actions? Why don’t they man or woman up and take their punishment?

    • Cynical_Me says:

      09:54pm | 22/07/11

      Hi Mel, this is how I see it:
      It is God who wants to save us, if we want to be saved and that’s it; then we have come to the wrong conclusion. It is out of Love for God that we say yes, not self-preservation. Yes we should own up to our sins, but it is at that point God does something strange to humanity; He pays for our sin Himself. It’s when we get to that point of realizing just what our rebellion is to God, we see that we can’t pay for what we have done - we can’t do anything for ourselves, when we see how much God loves us (even covered in sin), that we submit to His will to receive what we truly deserve. Like Rahab at Jericho, we could just as well be destroyed by God, but we are welcomed into God’s family.

    • mel says:

      09:12am | 23/07/11

      But Cynical_Me, the question is still there, why do you accept someone else paying for your sins? Why don’t you man or woman up and take them on yourself? You say we should “receive what we truly deserve”, but you are actually avoiding it. Why not show god that you are a human being and say “thanks but no thanks, I’m an adult who takes responsibility for myself”.

      Of course, you have to believe in the concept of sin and a perfect god, and want to obey one that commits ‘sins’ anyway. Why does god tell us not to kill, but then does it anyway (remember that supposed worldwide flood, and all the other deaths god has caused) or tells other humans to go about killing others just because he or she said so? Like I said, why not act like a responsible human being and tell god that he isn’t a nice person and he or she can go jump?

    • M. says:

      08:50am | 20/07/11

      @ Frank….Ummm? “None of these past events can be proven or disproven by science”.....Frank…where in the bible does it talk about dinosaurs walking the earth millions of years prior to homo sapiens???? One big slice of science proving the bible is fiction right there mate…..As has been said before, the Bible is NOT a historical record….it may contain evidence of some actual events (i.e. i do not doubt a man revered by a portion of roman society was crucified for speaking against the regime) but like all religious texts - the majority of events are embellished for dramatic effect.

    • Frank says:

      09:47am | 20/07/11

      Dear M

      “in 1842 the English paleontologist Richard Owen coined the term “dinosaur”.” (Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur#History_of_discovery)

      The King James Bible of the 1600’s uses words like “dragon” or “leviathan” for creatures that fit the descriptions of what we call dinosaurs.  There are many accounts in history of dragon-like creatures.  St George Building Society has a picture of one. !! http://www.stgeorge.com.au/

      As for the “millions of years”, that is a guess based on many assumptions that can not be proven.  Carbon dating is theoretically useful only up to 50,000 years.
      “Radiocarbon dating (sometimes simply known as carbon dating) is a radiometric dating method that uses the naturally occurring radioisotope carbon-14 (14C) to estimate the age of carbon-bearing materials up to about 58,000 to 62,000 years”.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dating
      so that is no help for “millions” of years.

      Other forms of radiometric dating, theoretically useful for ‘millions of years’ using various other elements all suffer from many uncertainties.  1. how much of the mother/daughter elements were already there to start with? 2. Have any been added or removed over long time periods?  3. Has the rate of radioactive decay always been the same as the last hundred years or so we have been able to measure it?  Could it have been varied during catastrophic global events? 
      These are all historical questions, not subject to scientific measurement today.
      We can measure present quantities of the various elements, but no one can look back in time to see the past history. 

      Actual attempts to give radiometric dates to known recent lava flows have produced ages in millions of years.

      In fact the main benchmark by which anomalous or varied radiometric “dates”  are checked is the assumption of evolution, and the ‘millions of years’ it is assumed to have taken. So the dates of igneous rocks are assigned to dates of supposed evolution of associated fauna.  But what if that assumption is wrong?  Who was there to see it?

      The true history of the earth given in the Bible is that the various kinds of life were created by God in 6 days. They have varied since then, but not evolved from one kind to another.  This is eyewitness testimony from the only Person there to see it – God Himself.

      The result of all this is that the ‘millions of years’ are imaginary.

    • IC-1101 says:

      12:05pm | 20/07/11

      Frank, I don’t think you quite understand what you’re saying.  You contradict yourself continuously, all the while purposely side-stepping everything you put forth as an argument on your own accord.

      You often argue that, “how can we know as no one was there to see it”, and yet you seem rather certain that God was there and that he is proof that the Bible is right.

      But my question is: where is God? 

      You cannot put forth an argument being critical of a lack of evidence, and then put forth your own conclusion that a being—that is, a being that needs to be BELIEVED in, one needs to have faith in it—is the definitive answer and that he exists, even without proof.

      The Bible itself is no more historical fact than a nursery rhyme penned during the same period.  It all relies on faith.  You cannot argue against one thing, but then instill that very thing you argue against in your own argument.  It only adds fuel to the other side of the spectrum that is arguing against you…

      Do you understand?  Your argument will not be respected until you form a little bit of consistentcy and coherance in your argument, because what you’re essentially saying is:

      “A theory is wrong, no matter how much proof there is.  Because a book written 2000 years ago with no other forms of proof to back up its claims is the true history of the world”.

    • Kristine says:

      11:10am | 20/07/11

      1. “And the Bible says that the Earth was made 6,000 years ago in the course of seven days.”  I believe it was actually James Ussher who gave us the 6,000 years, not the Bible.  Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the Earth was made 6,000 years ago.

      2. “Third, before the Big Bang, there was literally nothing.”  Um, no.  Not as far as I’ve understood.  I’m not a scientist, but I do read a large amount about these things, and what I’ve always understood is that we cannot know what occurred ‘before’ the Big Bang.  It lies outside of the light cone.  We can look at what was there AFTER the Big Bang, but not before.  We can only theorise.

      3. “...the uniquely human faculties of cognition and conscience are, to put it mildly, hard to explain in a purely Darwinian framework. Likewise religious faith, our uncanny sense of “self”, and free will.”  I contest that cognition and conscience are not unique to human experience.  We are mammals, and behave very much as other mammals do.  I also contend that free will is an illusion.  Recent experiments have shown that decisions are made within the brain far earlier than we are actually aware of them.  But even as a child, I remember thinking very hard on the nature of will, realising that it wasn’t me who chose to get up and walk, or move my hands, that these things happened without my conscious input and I just followed after. 

      4. “If the Universe is just a one-off fluke, it ought to be chaotic, featureless and dead.”  Why?  And why, if it is a fluke, should it be one-off?  It is much simpler to assume a natural process that creates lots of Universes much as bubbles are formed in a glass of soda water (an imperfect analogy, but it’s one that gives a handy visual) than it is to assume that our Universe is the only one.  It increases the amount of times this thing happens, and in doing so it quashes all your arguments about fine-tuning.  Good old “Occam’s Razor” would hold the multiverse theory up against any theistic theory, because a theistic theory multiplies the complexity of the formation of the Universe.  It adds an extra component into the mix where none was needed, and also adds questions like “Where did this God component originate?” 

      5. “...If the number of universes is infinite…”  Where did the infinite come into this?  I found a “perhaps” previously, and a “gazillions”, which makes me think that perhaps you are conflating very big numbers with infinity, however as you have no references cited I can’t follow where you’ve come up with infinity as an amount of other Universes.

      6. “According to some variants of the Multiverse Theory, many or even most of the universes in it must be fakes…” Not all theory variants are going to be correct. 

      7. “You and I could be such freak observers, who only imagine that we perceive “reality”.”  Or we might not be.  We could simply be what we appear to be, a bunch of life forms that formed on one particular planet out of a ridiculously large number of planets that may or may not have other bunches of life forms on them.

      8. “It’s the one which has been instinctively favoured by billions of people down the centuries…”  Please cite references that back up the claim that religion is instinctual and not learned behaviour.

      9. Even assuming your claims that everything listed in this article prove the existence of a creator, nowhere have you made the link between the existence of a creator and the identity of that creator.  You have in no way shown the Bible to be a valid text, nor have you shown that the god described in that text is any more valid than any other god described throughout human history.

    • Frank says:

      11:56am | 20/07/11

      Hi Kristine.  The Bible in Genesis 5 and 11 lists the the early men from Adam, the ages they had their first child, and the age of that child when they had first child and so on.  This gives us a continuous chronology from Adam to the Flood of Noah of 1656 years, then a few more hundred years to Abraham, who lived about 2000 B.C.  So from creation to Abraham is about 2000 years.  plus another 4000 to today. total about 6000.  Usher did not invent this age.  Many other similar calculations were made by other scholars. and Check out the Jewish calendar, which dates from creation.

      All the statements re science in your post are irrelevant.  The origin of the universe is history, not science. The true history is recorded in the Bible, where the true Creator revealed HImself.  The resurrection of Jesus is the clincher. He was the Son of God, and he endorsed the history of the whole Bible. He knows the truth, and tells the truth.

      Check out the evidence for the resurrection in my earlier post.

    • Kristine says:

      12:39pm | 20/07/11

      @Frank:  I was making my reply to Roy, who’s entire point you seem to have missed.  Roy was attempting an argument from a scientific standpoint, and I respect that position, even while disagreeing with it.  Your position is one I do not respect, as you’ve put yourself at odds with the evidence.  If you believe all my statements re:science to be irrelevant, you’re also ascertaining that you believe all the O.P.‘s statements re:science to be irrelevant. 

      Biblical literalism means that you believe your God to have lied to us while he was forming the Universe. 

      Re: Ussher, there have been many attempts to date the world from the Bible.  Ussher is just one of them, though his is the most well known attempt.  Not all come to a 6000 year span.  It all depends on how you count the generations.

    • Frank says:

      06:01pm | 20/07/11

      Hello Kristine,
      Yes you are right that your comments re science are relevant to Roy’s article.  I apologize for not properly acknowledging that.

      And yes, you are right that I am offering a different point of view to Roy’s article. I am saying that the truth of the Bible account of creation, and the nature and existence of God, does not depend on scientific arguments. The Bible is a historical account, and should be evaluated by historical, not scientific methods. 

      You say this is at odds with the evidence. My point is that the evidence (stars, rocks, fossils, living things) available to be observed is in the present, not that past. The interpretaion of it’s past history is guesswork, based on the interpreter’s worldview - either materialism, or supernaturalism..  Unless there is a reliable historical record.  That is the Bible, written by men inspired by the Spirit of God. The evidence can be interpreted to fit in very well with this worldview.

      The essence of the Bible’s message is in John 3:16 “God so loved that world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life”.  These concepts are completely beyond any scientific proof or disproof. The resurrection of Jesus has a lot of historical evidence, and guarantees the truth of these words.

      Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?

      Thank you for the time and thought you put into replying to my comments. I respect your sincerity and integrity..

    • Kristine says:

      07:37pm | 20/07/11

      Frank:  No, I don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead.  I actually have quite a lot of doubt about his existence in the first place.  I am a minister for the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic.

      There are many problems I see with the Bible.  It contradicts itself numerous times.  The current forms the Bible takes aren’t the original texts, but flawed copies of flawed copies of flawed copies, etc.  It lies, quite blatantly.  Many of Paul’s letters in the New Testament are actually forgeries.  Judging it as a historical text, it’s not worth my time. 

      Where evidence is concerned, all you need do is look outside on a clear night.  The stars in the sky are too far away for their light to have reached here already if the Universe were only 6,000 years old.  We have measured the speed of light.  If young Earth creationism is correct, then that light has been deliberately manipulated by your God to appear to have taken a lot longer to reach here.  So the God of your belief is deliberately trying to trap us into believing something that is not true.  After all, the Bible says it was God that put them there, right?  On the fourth day, if I’m not mistaken. 
      And of course God, being omniscient, knew that someday we would be able to calculate the speed of light, and measure that distance.  So your idea of God is deliberately laying traps for people.

      And if the God that is set out in the Bible as read today was in fact the creator of the Universe, I would set my entire self to doing everything to turn my back, because I have read the Bible numerous times, cover to cover, and I am horrified that anyone would ever consider the god set out in there to be worthy of worship.  John 3:16 is not the essence of the Bible’s message.  It’s more of an afterthought to make people feel warm and fluffy after the other stuff.  If you want a New Testament verse that sums up the Bible, Matthew 5:18 is it.  After that, I’d state Exodus (for the laws), and then Judges, for context about what sort of god this is (i.e. not nice).

    • Roy Williams says:

      11:43pm | 20/07/11

      Thanks, Kristine, for your thoughtful points, which I’ll try to address one by one, adopting your numbering.

      1.  You are correct, it was Ussher, but I didn’t suggest otherwise. My point was that many atheists and agnostics assume or assert that most Christians believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, and that they believe this because it says so in the Bible. In fact, young-Earth creationism is very much a minority view among modern-day Christians, at least in Australia.

      2. You are certainly right as to the proper scope of The Big Bang theory - that’s the very reason why it does NOT of itself explain the moment of Creation. It is concerned with events after that initial moment of Creation. True, it’s thus arguable that there are conceptual problems with the expression “before the Big Bang”.  But to my mind the key point is that the Universe had a beginning.  It was created ex nihilo.  In the words of a Nobel Prize-winner for physics, Arno Penzias, “Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing”.

      3. I think there’s a “not” in your sentence which shouldn’t be there. On that basis, I disagree.  The species Homo sapiens is, relevantly, unique. Even a lot of atheists concede this, such as the ABC’s science journalist Robin Williams. I also have to disagree with you re free will, though I respect your intellectual honesty.  It is real.  At least, we must live our lives on the basis that it is real. (Otherwise, concepts of right and wrong are meaningless: we can’t help what we do. There is no “me” or “you” making any decision about anything.) As I understand it, even most atheist authors on this subject, such as Daniel Dennett, argue that we really do have free will or least “free won’t”. “Free won’t” presuposses that even if we start to do things before we are aware of deciding to do them, we do have the capacity to, as it were, “bail out”. were.

      4. I suggested a reason why - by quoting the words of the excellent science writer John D. Barrow (who’s not a Christian by the way).

      5-7. Some versons of the multiverse theory postulate an infinite number of universes; in others it’s just an (unspecified) huge number. I confess “gazillions” was meant slightly tongue in cheek. There is an excellent chapter on the multiverse theory and its defects in Paul Davies’ book The Goldilocks Enigma. (Again, Davies is not a Christian.)

      8. This is a fascinating subject.  Serious atheists including Dawkins realise that they have to be able to explain the ubiquity of religion at every stage of human civilisation, and to explain it in purely Darwinian terms. They certainly favour the view that Mankind’s propensity to religious belief is instinctive, i.e., biologically ingrained, rather than learned.  There’s a useful chapter in The God Delusion on these issues. My own view is that it doesn’t matter. The fact is that, somehow, we possess this propensity.  Why? The classical Christian answer (though I realise many readers of this site will scoff) is the one given by St Augustine. Our propensity to search for meaning was implanted in us by God: “Our hearts are restless, until they rest in you.”

      9. Quite true, but I had a word limit!  I’ve written other articles - in fact, a whole book! - on the other deep questions you raise, which are entirely valid ones. Indeed, there’s a mountain of scholarship on the Bible. More books have been written about Christianity than any other subject.  A good starting point is Alister E. McGrath’s Christian Theology: An Introduction.

      Finally, and I STRESS THIS, I have never claimed to be able “prove” the existence of God.  That is beyond anyone’s ability.  I argue merely that belief in God’s existence can be plausibly defended on rational grounds.

    • Frank says:

      10:03am | 21/07/11

      Hi Kristine.  thank you for clarifying your point of view.  I suggest you examine the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus more closely.  It is very strong. The fact of the resurrection will affect your whole worldview, when you appreciate its implications.

      Hi Roy.  Thank you for your thoughts. Yes you are right that young earth creationism is a minority point of view.  However, that does not prove it is wrong.  As some of the hostile posters above have stated, it looks to an unbiased reader that Genesis is intended to be taken as historical fact. Surely God is able to communicate in a way that an ordinary person can understand.  And all available scientific evidence can be interpreted to fit perfectly. Articles by many highly qualified scientists on any creationist web site like Answers in Genesis show how. 
      Yes you are to be commended in trying to show that true science supports the Bible, and you have made some very good points.  But not all current scientific theories are based on true science. Some are a logical deduction from atheism. Have to discern the difference to communicate the message in a way God can fully use. He does not support half truth.  Grace and peace to you.

    • mel says:

      01:46pm | 22/07/11

      Frank said: “I suggest you examine the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus more closely.  It is very strong.”

      One source document, compiled and edited well after the event, is not “very strong” historical evidence.

    • Trentus says:

      11:20am | 20/07/11

      Well written article but nothing that has not been said before. You cannot explain the existence of a god by stating we are here therefore so is he/she/it. If a god was powerful enough to create a universe with life in it then theoretically it’d be powerful enough to create the same universe without life in it. So if we did not exist would that necessarily mean a god did not also exist? Similarly if we were not “conscience-possessing” would that mean god did not exist? In short, no, just as saying that life proves godly creation.

      Occam’s Razor incorrectly used also falls under the same misconception. Just because there is an easier, more logical answer, does not necessarily make that answer correct

    • Lauren says:

      11:27am | 20/07/11

      I feel dumber for reading this…

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:56pm | 20/07/11

      M says… where in the bible does it talk about dinosaurs walking the earth millions of years prior to homo sapiens????

      It doesn’t M because they didn’t the earth is only 6,000 years as Frank explained,  also the word “dinosaur” is a new word, invented in 1841.  So we wouldn’t expect that word in the Bible. But the word dragon is used quite a number of times and could easily be referring to dinosaurs.  The Hebrew word Tannyn is often translated as dragon. There is also “behemoth” used in Job 40. The description given in this passage matches the description of animals we know as sauropod dinosaurs. Then there is an animal called “leviathan.” Three different biblical authors use this term and the description they give of it matches that of a sea dragon/dinosaur. Job 41 Psalm 74:13-14 -  Psalm 104:25-27 - Isaiah 27:1

      It would help you M and also all those who debunk Creation to do a bit of study instead of relying on your own understanding,  this is a good link to start with, as you can see above they provide accurate detailed information based on fact and you can ask questions if you want to…http://creation.com/

      Kind regards Anne

    • Dr. Time says:

      12:01am | 21/07/11

      Hi Anne. I always admire you literal interpretation of the bible.
      How do you rationilise dismissing the vast amount of scientific evidence, inquiry and method that has determined the age of the Earth past well beyond 6000 years. Is it becasue the Bible, via “God” tells you so?

    • M says:

      09:22am | 21/07/11

      Thanks Anne - Albeit my comment was quite a simple argument but now we are arguing the historical origins of words??.....Dinosaur, Dragon etc it doesnt matter…..Believers of the Bible can turn any tale or possible story into anything because that is the nature of the teachings of the Bible…ambiguous to the point of absurdity…...The earth is NOT 6,000 years old…..Frank and other comments have proved nothing of the sort…merely pointed to claims in (once again Christians only point of reference) The Bible..Frank in actuality backed up my comments to a point…..arguing Carbon dating was only accurate up to 50,000 years…..If the earth is only 6,000 years as claimed by your book…explain to me the existence of say predynastic egyptian civilisation - which has carbon dated a number of key points of evidence over 5500 years BC…that would put the earth (at a bare minimum) over 7,000 years old…..which is inaccurate….but well and above the 6,000 years claimed in the Bible.

      Anne - do me a favour and do some study yourself. Go study the history of the world - instead of the history or theories of only Christianity….You will find that the emergence of Christianity as a dominant religion ( not the dominant religion) was by mere chance…..If Constantine the Great’s mother had more Pagan orientated beliefs than Christian back in 300AD (approx) - your ancestors and therefore modern day (anglo saxon) civilisation -  would have been subjected to an entirely different type of religion.

      It is with this type of understanding why I cannot believe the teachings of one religion…...the origins of such institutions are so heavily reliant on political/national conquests and changes…..you cannot claim one is true (or factual) over another as history has proven and will continue to prove that war/conquest/politics shape our society and therefore popular religion….remember - History is written by the winners….

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:55pm | 20/07/11

      Kristine says: We are mammals, and behave very much as other mammals do.

      In regards to most of your statements I feel Frank answered them in a very straightforward, detailed and comprehensive way which I found very helpful and uplifting,  It would seem Kristine you don’t do as much study as you claim at least in regard to mammals. Humans are indeed different from all other mammals, in may ways but perhaps the most important is we are made in God’s image although not physically but because of the fall our soul has been polluted. But getting down to the basics Kristine,  have a look at your belly button or navel,  no other mammal has one like us they only have a scar,  if you have a dog or cat check it out for yourself,  some mammals don’t have them at all. But what is interesting is apart from the fact they have never found the missing link although there has been a few fakes including the last one which turned out to be some type of extinct cat,  but they have never found an Ape with a belly button as you know they have only ever found bones which they built a body around,  still no belly button.

      Having done so much research Kristine you no doubt know about Radiocarbon method of dating that when fully understood in accordance with modern atmospheric data—gives powerful support for Creation not Evolution. Also you must be aware of the fact that Radioactive ‘dates’ are not independently-determined objective measurements of age. Rather, all dates are based on subjective assumptions. As Frank shared the age of the earth can be determined by the Bible the date being 6,000 years this is not an assumption but a fact.

      Perhaps you could also clarify Kritine,  how something came from nothing even if there was something before the Big Bang,  Evolution Scientists have never been able to create sustained life of any type from nothing. Maybe you could trying creating a Puppy or Kitten from nothing… ok you can use dirt if that makes it easier for you but remember even cloned animals have to start with a live embryo or cell and even so they are very inferior and most don’t live long or reproduce.

      Perhaps Kristine you need to check out the link I gave M it will really help you but of course it’s your choice,  I would never seek to over- ride your free will.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:49am | 21/07/11

      Dr Time says… How do you rationalise dismissing the vast amount of scientific evidence.

      We meet again Dr Time,  thank you for your kind words and yes I believe 100% in God’s Truth because I believe in Him and know His Nature ...His Integrity, never falters,  His Love, never wanes,  His compassion, is always constant, His Justice, is always fair,  His Creation,  is awesome and His Power undeniable… and so on,  but to be honest there is not enough man made words to describe His greatness.

      In answer to your question,  I don’t dismiss all Scientific research in fact I welcome it but only if it does not refute the Bible and a lot of Secular Science does and you seem to overlook the fact many Christian Scientists have proven some of what they claim when in opposition to the Scriptures is in error. It’s interesting but sad that many Atheists have never studied Creation from a Scientific point of view and yet wholeheartedly believe what Secular Scientists propagate, why do you think that is? are they afraid they will be proven wrong and so have to acknowledge their Creator.

      No doubt you have heard of Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong they were Christians and during their time on the Moon they even had Holy communion but before anyone claims it is just a story that they walked on the Moon even Secular Scientists have confirmed it to be true, besides the evidence is overwhelming. Strange even with this Truth there were those who still choose not to believe it, why do you think this is so ?

      Dr Time do you know anything about the amount of dust that was found on the Moon and what that signified ? there was as usual theories from both sides even before they walked on the Moon but at this time no Scientific findings has been able to clearly confirm either for Creation or Evolution, this is because determining the age of the earth by the dust has yet to be proven as reliable and this is for both sides, in other words it is still just a theory, regardless of what anyone claims if it refutes Scripture.

      So in answer once again to your question Science either side still does not have all the answers and theories that are advanced but have not been proven from both sides must be rejected until they are, but what has been proven by Christian and Secular Scientists I believe,  but my first Authority is God’s word because it has all the answers, including the age of the earth and anything that refutes the Scriptures I reject 100%, even if they have many calculations based on man’s own understanding and have documented them and claimed them to be True,  because to accept them would be to reject God’s integrity.
      Let me assure you Dr Time even if Christian Scientists claimed anything that was in opposition to the Scriptures I would also reject their findings but would pray and believe that God would show them their error and the Truth if they sought Him in what they are unsure of,  because He tells us He will teach us all Truth by the empowering of The Holy Spirit when we ask for His wisdom and believe we have received it.

      If you remember Dr Time I said God does not Lie and He tells us that He inspired man to record all that is written in His word and I have shared on other posts some of the Truths that only God could have known when they were recorded because Science was not as advanced as it is today in all areas, but even now there are many things Science has no answers for and this is in reference to both Christian and Secular Science.

      Frank has covered quiet a few of the errors in Secular Scientists unproven claims and calculations and so have I as you know, but I will recap on a few in regards to what Secular Scientists have used to determine the age of the earth…

      As shared before ... Radiocarbon method of dating that when fully understood in accordance with modern atmospheric data—gives powerful support for Creation not Evolution. Also you must be aware of the fact that Radioactive ‘dates’ are not independently-determined objective measurements of age. Rather, all dates are based on subjective assumptions. As Frank shared the age of the earth can be determined by the Bible and how this is so, the date being 6,000 years,  this is not an assumption but a fact.

      Keep searching - Kind regards Anne

    • Trentus says:

      11:19am | 21/07/11

      ” I don’t dismiss all Scientific research in fact I welcome it but only if it does not refute the Bible ” Absolute gold! Just so many issues with one small statement.

    • Cynical_Me says:

      11:21pm | 22/07/11

      How do Atheist Scientists do any different?
      British Astronomer Arthur Eddington once said, “This religious faith of the scientist is violated by the discovery that the world had a beginning under conditions in which the known laws of physics are not valid, and as a product of forces or circumstances we cannot discover. When that happens, the scientist has lost control. If he really examined the implications, he would be traumatized.”  It is with this sentiment that scientists try to discard with the idea of a finite universe, when the evidence says otherwise.
      Can someone in the atheist camp pitch a Evidence against God at me? Because I hear it all the time but all I see are philosophical arguments.

    • mel says:

      04:31pm | 24/07/11

      Oh dear, Cynical_Me, which christian website did you get that quote from? You should contact them to let them know that it was said by Robert Jastrow (who was an agnostic astronomer, and died in 2008), not Eddington who died in 1944.

      How’s this for evidence against god: if there was a god, it wouldn’t let you make a fool of yourself defending its name. And that google is more powerful than your god.

      QED, methinks.

    • Cynical_Me says:

      07:41pm | 25/07/11

      Apologies, Eddington said that the the Big Bang and expanding universe was a “repugnant” theory. It was Jastrow who later commented on this type of attitude among Atheist Scientists.

      Your following argument against God was nothing but philosophical.

      And thank you for your ever so condescending correction. smile

    • mel says:

      10:53am | 26/07/11

      Thank you, Condescencion is my middle name (my parents were a bit crazy)!

      And the arguments are not “philosophical”, whatever that means to you, but rather practical demonstrations of either the impotence or absence of gods. You are out there trying your little darndest to defend god, and god lets you stuff up. Since your all powerful god loves being worshipped, you’d think that he wouldn’t let a mistake like that go by. So either god isn’t very godlike or maybe not there at all. Also, it seems you stuffed up relying on god, rather than google. So either god’s not very helpful, or not there at all.

      How were my arguments philosophical?

    • mel says:

      11:44am | 26/07/11

      It would be even better if I could spell Condescension properly! But am I being condescending in my correction of myself?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:43am | 21/07/11

      I’m sorry Kristine that I cannot respond to your post under it and this is the same with others who post,  it sees I can’t for some reason but have been able to off and on but as others are able to I feel it must be my Computer which has been crashing,  I’m getting a new one tomorrow and will post again after it is set up..
      Kristine says:11:10am | 20/07/11 “And the Bible says that the Earth was made 6,000 years ago in the course of seven days.” I believe it was actually James Ussher who gave us the 6,000 years, not the Bible.  No where in the Bible does it state that the Earth was made 6,000 years ago.

      It was not James Ussher who first stated this Truth,  it was God and the Scriptures show it is very True in the recording of Creation in Genesis, it shows us that a Day was a Day as we know it, Morning and Night and that there was not millions or billions of years in between each day as some claim.  The sequence in Genesis in reference to the days of Creation show us that the earth was created in 6 Literal days and that God rested on the 7th and from this Truth we can calculate the age
      of the earth as Frank explained.

      Why do even some Christians refute this, because they don’t know God’s Truth,  they are trusting in man’s understanding,  although they have faith it is their own or others reasoning or logic that causes them to deny God’s Truth in the Scriptures.

      As for there only being a few Christians who believe in Creation and a young earth,  check out a few other topics where this error has been claimed and you will see a long list of Christian Scientist that have no doubt that a young earth is True and many Christians agree with their findings even if some of both don’t. In Truth it is mainly Secular Scientists and those who rely on theirs, or their own or others worldly understanding that then refute the 6,000 year old earth….sad but True.

      If you would like me to show you why it is impossible to believe in Creation and Evolution in light the evidence of the 6 days of Creation as recorded in Genesis, I will be happy to.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:49am | 21/07/11

      M ...why would I trust in man’s own understanding including the dating of the earth over what God tells us ?  anything including Christian Scientists who claim what the Bible does not confirm I refute, you also have you dating wrong M in regard to the recorded History of the world,  but don’t worry a bit of study will clear this up for you.

      As for what Frank said which is what I was referring to and affirming is in determining the age of the earth by recorded births and deaths,  it is aureate if you know and understand God’s sequence of Creation in the Scriptures and then follow it through which Frank did,  as for carbon dating Frank was showing that it has been proven that it refutes the propaganda that the earth is billons of years old but as to the exact timing it has not been proven,  this is why we must Trust in God’s Truth not man’s understanding regardless of the source.

      The problem you are having M is much the same as other unbelievers,  which is lack of Faith in God’s Truth,  but don’t despair even some very religious people have the same problem,  but there is an answer but first you have to address the fact that you are a natural or worldly man as shown below but reading the whole Chapter will really open your eyes if you do not depend on your own reasoning but ask for God’s understanding…

      1 Corinthians 2: 14 But the natural man received not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned. But he that is Spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

      Just what to share my position with you M .... If you don’t Stand for something you will fall for everything and I Stand 100% for God’s Truth not only as I understand it but as He confirms it.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Paul Murray says:

      11:16am | 21/07/11

      What God tells us? You have an email from God, sorting out the whole mess? A txt? A letter? He actually personally visited you end explained it? It was written in unambiguous thousand-mile high letters of fire on the moon?

      Oh - you have some old tribal myths, written out by God knows who, and subsequently copies and edited a bajillion times by priests. Not quite the same thing. Sorry. Why on earth should I credit some story about a talking snake in a garden, and not the rainbow serpent? All sounds like the same kind of stuff to me.

    • M. says:

      11:33am | 21/07/11

      Anne - this debate could go on for eons. But please note the complete and utter hypocrisy of your first sentence. “why would I trust in man’s own understanding including the dating of the earth over what God tells us”. Your only source of ‘evidence’ (I use that term loosely) is a book written by man. open up the inside copy of your latest version and take note of the publishing details…..The Bible is in itself a collection of tales based on man’s own understanding of a sequence of events which may or may not have happened…everything you rely on in that book is an interpretation of man’s understanding…..If you did not yourself witness some supernatural being writing the words in the Bible - you cannot tell me with any logical reasoning those words are the actual words of a deity….

      The dates I used were an overtly simplified example to simply show you what is claimed by Christinaity as fact to be complete fiction….Anthropological studies of past civiilisation has consistently and accurately refuted the claims of the bible…..Pre dynastic Egyptian culture has provided us with clear evidence other gods and deities for worshipped by man long before any mention of Jesus or the Bible…You can argue specific dates and carbon testing all you want…..

      And you still did not provide any answer to my previous comment…..How can you trust in one institution/religion when history has clearly demonstrated that religions have come and gone along with the society/civilisation of any given era?.....

      Lastly, for a mature woman, I really dont appreciate the condescending comment “if you dont stand for something for will fall for everything”....You are implying without faith in some supernatural being I will fail in life….what a load of rubbish…

    • James King says:

      01:35pm | 21/07/11

      If you believe in an Afterlife, I have a question for you! What was it before you were born? Another life?
      It would be nice think something existed or will exist after your time in your name and body/brain but come on people, GET REAL!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      05:05pm | 21/07/11

      M says… And you still did not provide any answer to my previous comment…..How can you trust in one institution / religion when history has clearly demonstrated that religions have come and gone along with the society/civilisation of any given era?.....

      What you are failing to understand or to grasp M is that my Trust is 100% in God as the Godhead or Trinity which They are called today and which means 3 in one,  I do not trust in an institution, religion,  creed or denomination, Christian Science, Secular Science,  a Minister, the Pope or the butcher the baker and the candle stick maker or even this uncle Bob they are always claiming I have,  unless what they say is confirmed by God’s Truth.

      But regardless of what they affirm.  I was not Baptised into any of these but into The Lord Jesus Christ whose Name is above every name and I was circumcised by The Holy Spirit not by the hands of man, and my Authority is The Lord, so now are you any the wiser M… I think not and the reason is because by your own testimony you are a natural or wordily man and as I shared before the Scriptures tell us ........

      But the natural man received not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned. But he that is Spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.1 Corinthians 2:14

      Seek the Lord while He may be found - Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      05:31pm | 21/07/11

      James King says: If you believe in an Afterlife, I have a question for you! What was it before you were born? Another life?

      You are failing to understand and believe the Truth of God but perhaps you have not heard, have you died yet James ?  I haven’t but Jesus Christ did and He was resurrected and He tells us if we believe in Him we also will be resurrected but not reincarnated as some claim,  the Scriptures tell us ....

      Hebrews 9: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

      James it is your choice where you send Eternity,  choose wisely.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:38pm | 21/07/11

      Paul Murray says: What God tells us? You have an email from God, sorting out the whole mess?

      To be honest I was once as confused as many others are because of all the different teachings and even Christians were saying different things but claiming they were right and yet even in my confusion I knew The Holy Spirit does not say one thing to one person and something different to another,  there is one Truth and that is God’s Truth. I was worried and had doubts, what was the Truth and who could I Trust,  sadly even my understanding of God’s Nature was distorted because of teaching over the years that was in error, to be honest I think I even feared Him not meaning respect or reference which is the Hebrew word for fear, but I had doubts that He would forgive me for all I had done wrong even though I had asked Him to forgive me and I didn’t understand the Scriptures like I do now, there seemed to be contradictions and they seemed to be saying God was hard and judgemental and without compassion,  but I still believed in Him and knew I must be wrong but I didn’t understand Him or His word even though I knew they were True, God does not Lie or can He.

      I continued for a while feeling very unsure and having doubts about quiet a few things, then one day as I was reading the Scriptures a verse touched my heart, Mark 9:24 some Christians call this a Rhema Scripture, it said… that a man’s son was in need of healing and Jesus asked him do you believe, the man answered yes I believe but please help my unbelief and so I also asked Jesus to help my unbelief.

      Not long after this I prayed to God for His help again and He gave me another Rhema Scripture James 1:5-8 that said… if you lack wisdom to ask God and He will give you His wisdom without finding fault but that we must believe and not doubt that we have received it. I asked in Faith for God’s wisdom and I have no doubts that I have received it and that it is growing in my heart and will continue to do so as He perfects me in His Love to conform me to the image of His Son.

      What God has shared with me He has confirmed in His written word by His Living Word,  I’m still learning but I know without a doubt what God has already shown me is True…... Jesus tells us we don’t have because we don’t ask with Faith believing what He says He will do and this is very True.

      I believe one of my other hindrances to maturing in Faith was that for many years I doubted God’s promises were for me even though the Scriptures confirmed they were. God is always faithful to fulfil His promises of which I’m very thankful, if I’m puzzled about anything I ask The Lord and He responds according to His will and in His time. Jesus as Part of the Godhead is our only Teacher and through the empowering of the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and yes He does use different ways of doing this but our conviction always comes from Him and is always in agreement with God’s Truth. For those who doubt God’s words even as Christians, sadly they are saying they can’t have God’s wisdom for themselves and are also saying that He does not keep His promises which means they are claiming He is a liar and this shows just how unstable they are when they do not believe in the Truth of His word in His inspired Scriptures - James 1:5-8

      God said it,  I Believe it and that Settles it.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • wil says:

      06:53pm | 21/07/11

      a biased view from any side will always result in a biased column especially when you have a book that you can pick and choose what suits you from.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:17pm | 21/07/11

      wil says: ... a biased view from any side will always result in a biased column especially when you have a book that you can pick and choose what suits you from.

      I take it wil,  that you are referring to The Bible and yes it is True , some only agree with what suites their agenda regardless if it is in opposition to God’s guidelines but others accept God’s Truth and base their lives on it..

      It is not your place or mine to judge others unless they are sinning without repentance,  as is confirmed in the Bible, but as Christians Male and Female we are to correct error, refute deception and warn of danger,  as well as share God’s Truth within the role He has given us, for woman this means not being Ordained or being an Elder in the Church or having any position were we are in Authority over Men, because this is in error as a Man’s God given role is to be in Leadership, a Woman’s is to be a Man’s Helpmate physically, emotionally mentally, and spiritually and both roles are to be by ffulfilled through the empowering of The Holy Spirit.

      In regard to   biased column,  perhaps you haven’t been reading the posts, most are written by Atheists who reject the Bible, yes there are more of my posts at this time and they are longer because I am responding to the others and their questions, and often they are long, it is how I feel lead to express myself,  which you can see with other past Topics on Punch.

      Also you may have noticed I am not fully in agreement with Roy Williams or he with me, although I respect him as a man of God who seeks to serve The Lord with his abilities and recourses,  but we have differences but they can be resolved if we seek The Lord for His understanding,  because He tells us there will be differences in the Church but promises us when we do seek Him,  He will show us who has His Truth and who is in error, He does not want us to not be in Unity or not to have His Love for each other as part of The Body of Christ,  which saying we agree to disagree leads to,  this is because differences are never resolved this way.

      Are you biased wil or don’t you have a firm conviction about anything and if you do are you willing to make a strong stand for it as Roy has done right or wrong and as many Christians do and I also seek to do,  even the Atheists make a stand for what they believe and I did when I was one of them too,  but now I stand for the Lord… I hope you do too.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Roy Williams says:

      11:19pm | 21/07/11

      I’m making another contribution to this spirited debate.

      To Macon Paine – apology accepted, with thanks.  I try in my various comments below to touch on some of the substantive questions you have raised.

      To Anne Stocks – thank you for your kind support not only re this piece but others I’ve written. It’s greatly appreciated and I admire your courage. As you have said, we don’t agree on everything but I think we do agree on the most important things. I love Mark 9:24 too. Philippians 3:14-15 and Proverbs 25:2 are other passages on the same theme.

      To Kristine – I’ve addressed your points separately in a stand-alone post, which appears after your original post.

      By way of general observation, a few things.

      First, many of the issues and arguments canvassed so far – on both sides – are thousands of years old.  Most have been thoroughly discussed by the great theologians and philosophers down the centuries.  I cannot emphasise that enough. Let no one think that our generation has a monopoly on wisdom.

      The terms “proof’ and “evidence” and “belief” have been bandied around loosely by a number of people.  Mitch was one such person.

      I make no claim to have “proved” God’s existence and I know of few, if any, serious theologians who would make such a claim.  (And before someone mentions St Thomas Aquinas and his so-called “proofs” of God, let me stress that Aquinas himself made no such claim.  He called his arguments viae – paths or roads – by following which a believer might arrive at some sense of transcendent presence.)

      I have identified in my piece, albeit briefly and incompletely, certain evidence which is relevant to the debate.  I entirely reject the notion that there is “not a smidgin” of evidence for the theistic position. 

      There’s plenty of evidence, and some of it is to be drawn from modern-day science.  In legal terminology, it is expert evidence as to matters of fact and, in some instances, as to matters of mixed fact and opinion (the approximate age of the Universe; the relative strengths of the fundamental forces; the details of the process of evolution/natural selection etc.).

      The question each individual must ask themselves is how best to INTERPRET that evidence so as to make sense of the world. 

      Clearly, interpretations radically differ.  It is my personal belief – and the belief of billions of others around the world today, laymen and scientists alike – that this evidence suggests the existence of God.  (I’m not talking yet of the Christian God, but a generic Creator. See Romans 1:20.)

      A number of sincere Christians have accused me of “compromising” with atheists to no good purpose – for example, by accepting the Big Bang theory as a reasonable hypothesis.  Be assured, I have no such motive.  After a lot of reading and thinking I’ve formed my own honest views – which may be right or wrong – as to what science really has proved and what is still unknown.  My belief – and that of Allan J, to say nothing of countless scientific giants now and down the ages – is that many of the truly amazing things that science has proved give us plausible grounds for believing in a Creator.

      I’m well aware of the potential pitfalls of “God of the gaps” arguments.  Some are much more compelling than others. That’s why, among other things, it is crucial to distinguish between design arguments from cosmology, physics and chemistry and design arguments from biology.  Most arguments in the latter category (e.g., the notion of irreducible complexity) are indeed flawed or, at best, weak. 

      Sir Martin Rees, the Astronomer Royal of Great Britain, is not a believer in God.  However, in his excellent book Our Cosmic Habitat (2003) he acknowledges that design arguments based on the laws of physics and chemistry “cannot be as readily dismissed as the old claims for design in living things”.  Why?  Because, wrote Sir Martin, “the basic laws governing stars and atoms are a given, and nothing biological can react back on them to modify them”.

    • James King says:

      11:42pm | 21/07/11

      Anne, I do fail to believe and understand the truth of God and can’t undertand why people still believe it so strongly 2000 years later…...........ummm have you thought that maybe it’s the writings of MAN back in a time where human understanding of the world was very limited. Obviously you believe very deeply and maybe naively that the Bible tells us the absolute truth. Have you ever heard of Chinese whispers? We know it’s human nature to change or add things to make something sound better especially if you are biased…..........don’t you think this may have happened to the bible after so many editions.

      Also, why would Jesus (the supposed son of God) only exist in that era as to opposed to any other time? There have been plenty of other’s in history who have put themselves up on a pedestal and have had such influence!

      Also, what makes Christianity so correct when there are many other religions that exist and have existed?? Please answer me this! I’m dying to know!

      Kind Regards,

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:22am | 22/07/11

      James King says… Obviously you believe very deeply and maybe naively that the Bible tells us the absolute truth. Have you ever heard of Chinese whispers?

      Yes James I have heard of Chinese Whispers, I use to enjoy it at parties but the Scriptures do not have parts added to it or has it been exaggerated only the Cults have changed them to deceive or added to them,  yes some Translations have man’s error but God will revel these to us and confirm His Truth in other Scriptures. God tells us ....

      2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

      What many fail to understand James,  is the Scriptures form a complete Picture but some only focus on parts of it, but like a Picture puzzle they all fit together but without the Holy Spirit they remain just pieces and as you can see in the verse above All Scripture is Inspired by God not just parts of it.

      You have a Choice James to accept the Scriptures or reject them but without the Holy Spirit you can’t understand them, because you are natural or worldly man and so they remain just words, but those who have God’s wisdom by the empowering of the Holy Spirit will know and understand His Truth in His inspired Scriptures.

      God shows us this Truth in…. 1 Corinthians 2 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that Love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with Spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned.

      God also tells us for those who have The Holy Spirit will know all His Truth…  Matthew 10:26-27 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.  What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

      James God also tells us man will be without excuse because we can see in Creation His greatness and His reality, ... Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

      Your Choice James but as for me… God is my Abba Father, my Lord and Saviour and Friend, My comforter and Teacher and He has proven this to me so I have no doubts. 

      Kind regards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      03:49pm | 22/07/11

      Some thoughts regarding truth.  And by that, I mean an absolute truth from god for all.
      You said, “the Scriptures does not have parts added to it or has it been exaggerated”.

      As you acknowledged, the bible has been translated through languages both losing and gaining both meaning and context.
      e.g. the Hebrew word translated to Virgin can, more commonly be translated to young, unmarried female.  And the only people who have influenced the typical biblical translation are just people. Including their flaws and purposes.

      Regarding change, error and corruption, you say “but God will revel these to us and confirm His Truth in other Scriptures”.  Other scriptures?  What other? Other chapters in the bible?
      So one passage can be corrected in another.  Which is true?
      You acknowledge change, error and corruption in the bible but you are saying it can be fixed from other parts of the bible that may themselves be changed, in error, or corrupted.
      As many parts of the bible disagree, what is right? Do we vote on it? Take your own personal position? Get the vatican to answer?
      All these have been done and this is where we are now at.
      We are certainly no nearer a defineable truth.  We are further from the earliest versions of the bible which should be closer to any truth as they are closer to the source.
      Also, we still have massive contradictions in the bible.  People of the same faith still define opposite points of view on the same topics.  etc. etc.

      So how can anyone now know truth?  And I’m not talking some ephemeral truth from “the heart”, “the spirit” or any other vague concept.  I mean the truth from god that is demonstrably true for all.
      All this has placed truth firmly in the realm of the individual interpretation and not in god’s messages.

      Further to this, if god has truth to tell us, then he can get on with it.  Not confuse, contradict and hide the truth.
      If, after god delivers a message and many years of confusion reign, you personally have not got to the correct truth, there is never ending punishment for you for not perceiving the subtle truth amongst the many varied versions in the world.
      It seems to me that people need to establish a way to identify truth.  A set of steps to follow whereby falsehood and corruption of ideas can be filtered out and discarded.
      Without such a defined process, the decision of what to accept as correct or true remains with an individual.  Any advisor may also be in error or corrupted and should be disregarded. This then negates the idea of a common truth.


      All that is from your first paragraph.
      The rest get’s the following responses;
      Your quote from 2 Timothy 3:16 is using the bible to affirm the truth of the bible.  This is circular reasoning and therefore needs an alternative argument.
      Regarding the scripture as a picture.  So there is no detail in the bible?  Who chooses when to drill in to detail and when this is invalid and to look at the big picture?  Again, this points to many interpretations.  Not at all a common truth.

      “As you can see in the verse above, all scripture is inspired by god.”
      Whew.  To paraphrase:  Is the bible true?  Yes, the bible tells us it is inspired by god.  Therefore it is true. 
      More circular reasoning.  Throw it out and try again.

      “...those who have The Holy Spirit will know all His Truth…”
      Paraphrase again: To believe in it, you have to understand it.  To understand it, you have to believe in the holy spirit. 
      This is more circular reasoning. There is nothing external to the belief to point to the belief.

      “God shows us this Truth in…”  Again with the circular reasoning.

      “...man will be without excuse…”  So the contradictions in the bible, the hidden messages and immoral permissives are not excuses to disregard the bible?
      Wow.  I totally disagree.  They are perfect reasons to disregard the bible.
      Using the bible as a point of truth allows incredibly immoral behaviour.
      If you believe god has told you so, you can go slaughter people.  Kill the unborn and their mothers.  Rape the women (but not those of your own family).
      Feel free to have slaves.
      Have many wives.

      And to pre-empt the most obvious of theistic answers, don’t say this is all in the OT.  Either the bible is unerring truth or all of it is acceptable.
      If the OT can be disregarded, throw out all the discussion about age of the earth, great flood, disagreement with evolution etc etc etc. This would save everyone from misunderstaning.

      Lastly, regarding the bit above about defining a process for the truth, I know there is one.  It’s kind of bovious right?

      Let the flaming begin.

    • Matthew says:

      04:50pm | 22/07/11

      bovious?  Is that something like cow based?

      hahaha.  Boviously, I meant “obvious”.

    • cpon says:

      11:33am | 22/07/11

      The argument that we don’t fully understand nature is not an argument for the existance of a supernatural creator

    • James King says:

      12:42pm | 22/07/11

      Well Anne I’m happy for you that you have an invisible friend. Happiness is all that matters and if that makes you happy, that is really good. I don’t mean any harm, but this debate is a dead end with you because all you do is quote scripture that has been written by MAN and have a perception of reality that is different to mine. I like to think logically and prefer to hold the view that until a supernatural creator is proven to exist, then it’s unlikely to exist. You can’t disprove it but it’s easier than to prove. By the way, how do you know your God has a gender? What is meant by this if HE is a spirit? Has he revealed this to anyone? You’ll probably say the scriptures tell us. If that’s a good enough explaination for you then so be it. What many religious people fail to do is question things and just follow what they’re told or read. I used to get told it was a sin to ask such questions at Church. I know why that is the case today because it threatens religion!
      You also didn’t answer my question about the many other religions who also belive they are right with just as must justification as you. Doesn’t this raise some questions to you that either your religion or all others is probably unlikely or is it true that there are many Gods and creators. That doesn’t make sense when you’re after the truth.
      As long as we’re good people we agree to disagree and you are happy, then I respect you. 
      Very Kind Regards to you.

    • Cynical_Me says:

      12:24am | 23/07/11

      “I like to think logically and prefer to hold the view that until a supernatural creator is proven to exist, then it’s unlikely to exist. You can’t disprove it but it’s easier than to prove. “
      Logically speaking the only one who can prove or disprove God, is God seeing as God is the only one who is “All-Knowing”. All we can do is stack evidence for or against God. At the moment, the current theories and the known constants in the universe, to my view, point in the general direction of a Creator.
      “By the way, how do you know your God has a gender?”
      God doesn’t have a gender because there is no need for reproduction of God, but is referred as Father and as Son. We as humanity have gender. God is relational and chose to use the male gender when describing Himself. This could be seen as an act of relating with us.
      “What is meant by this if HE is a spirit? Has he revealed this to anyone?”
      Yes, both in the Bible and in Christian lives.
      “You’ll probably say the scriptures tell us. If that’s a good enough explanation for you then so be it.”
      Logically the existence of the Bible itself would point to something happening, what that is exactly is for you to research.
      “I used to get told it was a sin to ask such questions at Church. I know why that is the case today because it threatens religion!”
      Come to my church and you can ask any question you wish! Heck every church I have been to encourages it! Every question I have asked has thrown me further into God’s arms.
      “You also didn’t answer my question about the many other religions who also believe they are right with just as must justification as you.”
      You can logically remove pantheism with the “razor” not saying pantheism is not possible, just superfluous. Buddhism has no god per say. This leaves Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Faith cannot be based on logic alone, but requires a personal and emotional reasoning and conviction.

    • Matthew says:

      01:26am | 23/07/11

      @ Cynical_Me,
      They key point I take from what you have written is at the end.
        “Faith cannot be based on logic alone, but requires a personal and emotional reasoning and conviction.”

      This is exactly the point.
      And in that line, you have perfectly framed the fallacy of the article at the top of this thread.
      Religion cannot exist in a framework free from faith.  Faith, to me, is a belief in the absence of evidence / proof.

      So to maintain faith, stay away from science.
      And to do science properly, leave faith out of it.

    • Cynical_Me says:

      02:12pm | 23/07/11

      Scientific Process points the way to a Creator, but cannot tell you who the Creator is. A fingerprint cannot tell you what someone’s personality is like. From that point you must transfer your logic into the philosophical which is still has on a logical process.
      Faith also cannot exist without fact. I didn’t say that faith cannot be based on logic. My definition of faith is: A choice to trust in something/someone knowing how it/they behaved last time. But if this is the first time to trust something, what evidence do you have to trust? All you can to is test it to obtain your fact.
      To re-phrase: Faith cannot be based on logic alone, but requires a personal and emotional philosophical conviction that we can trust God. Science cannot be based on logic alone either; it also requires a philosophical conviction that the physical is testable and observable. God being the prime cause means that He can relate physically or not and is not constrained to either. He is the God of the physical and the non-physical and therefore brings both together. His actions are testable and observable in the physical, and His relations on the emotional/metaphysical can be tested and trusted. The two are not at odds.

    • Matthew says:

      10:37am | 24/07/11

      Hi Cynical_Me.

      Please expand on point one in your reply to me.
      Please oh please.  If you write nothing else in your life, that is the single most important point to cover.
      “Scientific Process points the way to a Creator..”
      I know it points to unknowns.  But an unknown is unknown.  It is not “god”.
      So please tell me how science points to “god” rather than the unknown.

      Correct you did not say faith cannot be based on logic.  But I didn’t say that either.  I quoted you saying it needs emotional reasoning and conviction.  This thread is about the science so I’m hoping for some evidence for god that is not emotion or personal conviction.
      Logic is fine as long as it is not logic based on emotions or conviction.

      The idea that science can be tested is not philosophy.  It is theory.  They are so very different.  the test is carried out and there is a result either confirming or disproving the theory.
      Philosophy has no such tests and remains in the realm of thought experiments.
      This is a massive, massive difference.

      Then after writing decent thoughts you write “god as the prime cause”.  Go back a step and say why he is the prime cause.
      Go to the title of this thread and have at it.

      Regards,
      Matt

    • Brian Gauspohl says:

      04:47pm | 22/07/11

      Part 1 Beginning
      My name is Brian Gauspohl. I live in Kentucky in the USA and I was raised Catholic. I attended 12 years of catholic school and then I attended the University of Kentucky where I obtained my BA in psychology. I don’t want to offend anyone on this site by what I say or think. I think the question of whether there is a God is irrelevant. If there is a God then there is a God. If this is so we cannot assume that God experiences reality the way a human does. God would not seem to be affected or constrained by the properties of space, time, matter, and energy. I would also assume that God is not constrained by the constructs of what we modern humans call logic, reason, rationality, and mathematics.
          I have read many people asking how can God be both all knowing and all powerful and let us , his children live in a world that is a piece of shit. I think the mistake here is our infatuation with logic. Logical argument is only the result of human thinking. Human minds and human thinking are limited in both quantity and in quality. I would guess that many many logical paradoxes, fallacies, and inconsistencies in the history of philosophy actually aren’t logical paradoxes, fallacies, and inconsistencies at all from a perspective that is outside of all the properties and conditions of our reality. I am smart enough to know I will never be smart enough to know it all. The more I have learned the more aware I have become of just how much I don’t know. What was black and white to me as a boy and a young man has become blurred and now the universe seems more grey.
          In science the onus with the null hypothesis is proving that something exist. Science cannot disprove the existence of any phenomena. This is because science can never be absolute in any observation of a dynamic universe where anomalies can occur. Physical laws that are thought of as static, rigid, and permanent can actually be bent under circumstances that we are currently unable to describe or explain. There is always the possibility of an alternate hypothesis that explains phenomena in a simpler manner
      (parsimony = simple yet elegant).
          Brian Gauspohl

    • Brian Gauspohl says:

      04:50pm | 22/07/11

      Brian Gauspohl Part 2 Conclusion
          If God does not exist then he does not exist. I personally don’t hope this is the case because the thought of heaven where everyone is young and healthy and everyone gets along and is happy seems like a nice existence. It is what we wish this Earth we live on could be. But I do not think people should feel fear if God does not exist. Fear is a human emotion that originates in the lymbic system of our brain from a complex network of electrical—chemical synaptic interactions that cascade and permeate our experience of reality, from the surface conscious level to the deepest subconscious level. It seems to me that religion and God provides people a security and comfort from the fear of death. But I think that the fear of death is an irrational fear. If you die and there is no God and no afterlife then the only thing left for you to fear is the concept of nonexistence or simply no longer being. But if you no longer exist then the origin of fear, the human brain, the human mind no longer exist so if you don’t exist then fear and all negative emotions and thoughts also don’t exist. So in this sense death, not the physical process of dying, but the result of dying itself is nothing to be feared.
          I would like to end with telling you that I think that man will never prove God with religion and that man will never disprove God with science. I think that much of what we think we know about the universe and reality aren’t really so. The physicists seem to be the most open minded people with just how flexible the basic laws of physics are and whether these laws are really constant at all. The basic notion of our universe and our reality may not even hold up in the end. The general theory of relativity of the macro level really big things cannot seem to be in harmony and agreement with the quantum level mechanics of the micro really small things. I personally don’t think the universe is limited or constrained. I don’t think there ever was a beginning and I don’t think there will ever be an end. It does take a leap of faith and an open mind for the observer to realize and believe that is more to reality than what the observer is capable of observing. That is there is something outside of the personal bubble of everything you observe, experience, sense, perceive, think, and feel from cradle to grave in your existence. Again I cannot claim to know there is a God or that there is not a God because I am limited by the logic and reality of humanity. Every philosopher, every inventor, every theologian, every poet, and every scientist may have gotten it wrong not just individually but also collectively. I don’t know if there is a God but I do hope there is a God because I’d like to go to the good place and get to know all of you when we have no limits but instead infinite possibilities and opportunities. Just when you think you know it all, that you’ve seen it all, and that you experienced it all something comes around the bend that no one saw coming. In a infinite reality of possibility anything can happen. As William Shakespeare said, “There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy”. Always keep an open mind with cautious skepticism while reminding yourself that you don’t know as much as you think you know. That and live simple and be good to others, especially the vulnerable and misfortunate. Well its 2:40 am in the US and time for me to go to bed. Be good Aussies. You have a good reputation and image to uphold in America. We think highly of you.
            Brian Gauspohl

    • Adam says:

      06:06pm | 22/07/11

      If God isn’t real and Genesis is garbage 1) Explain the fact that men and women come to the knowledge of good and evil. 2) If man is millions of years old how come we have writing that only dates back to 4000 bc?

    • Dr. Time says:

      10:09pm | 23/07/11

      Well there’s the Zoaroastrian, Hinduism & Bhuddist religions that came before Jedaism (old testament) with writing systems. Thats the one that have survived of course for us to know about
      There’s archelogical evidence from the cradle of civilization mesopatania as well as ancient china, africa and the Indian sub-continent of proto-writing through to written systems. There more than enough varied examples of basic written commincation ever before the old testament.
      Humans sense of right and wrong has been around well before the the bible as well, since the evolutionary dawn of man you could say smile. Christians love to pretend they have a mortgage on morality and the sense of right and wrong but you don’t. Your arrogance on such matter is always amusing.
      Hope that clears it up for you.  Oh, and the God of the Bible is a complete fallacy and Genisis by and large has been well and truely refuted by scientific enquiry. You can either wake up and accept this or continue on in your bubble of ignorance. Life is short, don’t waste it on bronze age fairy tales Adam.
      All the Best.

    • Jess says:

      07:17pm | 22/07/11

      By definition, science can only assess scientific claims i.e. phenomena that can be observed in the natural world. God is claimed to be a supernatural entity that transcends the natural universe. The existence of god is not a scientific claim, and lies outside the realm of science. As such, science can neither be used to provide evidence for or against, or prove or disprove the existence of god/s. It is inherently unknowable.

    • Cynical_Me says:

      10:02pm | 22/07/11

      If God is personal, relational and has"interfered” with our universe, would there be “fingerprints” that are observable to us by scientific inquiry? Not Necessarily proofs of God but pointers at God’s Activity?

    • Matthew says:

      12:50am | 23/07/11

      @Cynical_Me, You’re totally wrong.
      You’re not cynical at all.  Just thoughtful.

      @Jess, to expand on Cynical_Me, Science only assesses the physical world.  So far, almost everything we can observe has an observed physical cause.
      This observed physical world has physical causes.
      Now, where’s some observed, non-physical things?  None?
      So I can assume, in the absence of any observation, that the physical world is the entire world.

      We don’t know everything and I hope we never do. I know there are physical events with unknown cause.  But as every identified cause to date has been a physical one, it would be ridiculous to suddenly postulate a non-physical cause.

    • Jess says:

      12:59pm | 23/07/11

      @Matthew, you are right, but remember that logically speaking, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That is not to say however that the prior probability of the claim for the existence of god is on equal footing with the claim that god/s does not exist. For the very reasons you have stated (and more addressing the origins of religion), I am thoroughly unconvinced that god exists.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:21pm | 22/07/11

      Matthew says: So how can anyone now know truth?  And I’m not talking some ephemeral truth from “the heart”, “the spirit” or any other vague concept.  I mean the truth from god that is demonstrably true for all

      Sadly Matthew you will never know the Truth unless you acknowledge your Creator who gives His Children all the Truth,  your worldly understanding means nothing compared to God’s wisdom, without it you can’t comprehend the Scriptures or The God who inspired them and because you lack faith to ask for His wisdom and believe you have received it,  this means you never will unless you humble yourself and submit to your Creator.

      It’s your choice Matthew,  it’s not God’s will that you perish He Loves you,  but whether you acknowledge Him or not, you will still be accountable to Him and be judged and punished for your sins, this is your choice not God’s, He sent His Son Jesus Christ who Loved you enough to die for you even knowing you would deny Him so you wouldn’t be punished .

      How do I know what I just shared with you is Truth because I have God’s wisdom… your choice if you believe me.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      12:39am | 23/07/11

      Sadly Anne, you will never know true independent thought without abandoning your circular reference.
      You cannot.  You have not made a single new point in what you write there. 
      You repeat the same argument 4 separate times above;
      1) “you will never know the Truth unless you acknowledge your Creator”
      This means you won’t know god until you decide you know him.
      2) “without it you can’t comprehend the Scriptures”
      Same argument.
      3) ” because you lack faith to ask for His wisdom “.. same again.
      4) ” you never will unless you humble yourself and submit to your Creator”... and again.

      Then there is the veiled threat that I will be punished….
        “you will still be accountable to Him and be judged and punished for your sins”
      And then you contradict…
        “Jesus Christ who Loved you enough to die for you even knowing you would deny Him so you wouldn’t be punished.”
      So will I be punished or not?

      It is not, in any 1/2 way intelligent way, to make an argument for something where the evidence for it is predicated on the same.
      Read over what you write and remove the repeated circular argument from scripture. 
      Then, just to predict the next bit, remove argument from personal feeling.

      So is there anything new to add?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:38pm | 23/07/11

      Sorry Matthew but it seems you are having trouble understanding, I must not be making it clear enough for you ...or perhaps you are not wanting to understand… it is not a veiled threat it is a very exposed one clear for all to see and understand, so regardless of your circular reasoning you will be subject to judgment unless you come to heart repentance…not my words, Gods…..whether you try to ignore them, make fun of them or intellectualise them, it does not change them or the outcome - Your choice.

      Kind Regards Anne.

    • Matthew says:

      12:21am | 24/07/11

      Hi again Anne.
      I’m sorry to be so obtuse.
      The “veiled” bit was to be humorous.  Simply because to threaten harm to those who disagree is the mark of every tyrannical group in society.
      Think honestly of the ridiculous threats of suffering to women under countries with Islam’s sharia law.  Are not these threats the final refuge of the weak?
      Now, how is this different to god’s ultimate threat if you disagree?

      Another question for you.  In what way did the circular reasoning of the bible being right because it says it is right, become my circular reasoning.  Please do not ever associate me with such thought.  If you make the assertions, you should have the conviction to own them.

      It is good to see in your recent comments you have removed these gratuitous arguments where the bible is right because it says so.
      It has made your writing so much shorter and simpler to read.
      I guess the difficulty for others of faith is that it has left these writings bereft of any reason to consider the bible as true.

      You have attributed words to god but again, these words only appear in the bible.  And this was written by man, translated, obfuscated, corrupted and manipulated.
      Who could say if a single word was from a god.  And then, if from a god, which god?

    • James King says:

      02:02am | 23/07/11

      Brian, your passage is very eloquently said. Thankyou for your very intellectual debate. I agree with many things you say. You are an open thinker and I admire that.
      I believe that there is something going on that we can’t explain. I’ve felt and experienced it. I was in the Bali Bomb and survived but I believe that I was lucky, not ‘the hand of God’. On the other hand, i’m not discounting some other presence. The human race would be ignorant if we didn’t keep an open mind about such things because there is a lot we still don’t know about the universe and much still to learn and is why i’m Agnostic and not Athiest.
      What I do despise is the conventional religions that groups of people worship. In my OPINION,  the bad side of religion outweigh the good. 
      I wouldn’t be true to myself if I believed in a single Deity or God because i’m a rational person. I live in a real world surrounded by real people.  The idea of God (the almighty but yet invisible) is man made and is something that has been passed down through the ages via scripture, tales/stories. People’s God is likely to exist due to our larger brains and our ability to question where we’ve come from and why we’re here. Emotional and creative sides to people contribute to their religions perspectives. You don’t see animals praying and worshipping (except the Praying Mantis, grin) because they don’t have the cognitive ability to question things. People need an answer to their existance and use imagination come up with a good reason - God. This makes more sense to me than just saying God did it.
      I don’t need to belive there is a God because I’m happy with my life, i’m not afraid of dying and I can’t justify a supernatural force ruling everything in the Universe. Until this ‘God’ makes ITSELF clear about who or what it is, I will continue to doubt it’s existence. I don’t think we could be guilty by not believing. We’d also be forgiven wouldn’t we since IT is so forgiving?
      Humans are getting better at understanding the world around them and have many answers/acceptable conclusions now than when scriptures were written. The scriptures tried to explain our mortal existance prior to our present day understanding of the world.
      I’m sorry Anne but you are in La La land. How can you attempt to threaten Matthew with your soapbox religious conviction. This conviction is very narrow and closed minded and is typical of preachers and others trying to spread the word which is another thing I despise especially to children.

    • Skutter says:

      06:33am | 23/07/11

      Just another bog standard argument from ignorance.

      “I can’t understand how this could have happened by natural means, therefore it couldn’t have happened by natural means, therefore goddidit.”

      What causes thunder and lightning Roy Williams? God’s fighting?

      By the way, old Roy boy spat the dummy at the old Dawkin’s forum when his crap arguments were systematically demolished.

    • Mark Davidson says:

      10:05am | 23/07/11

      “For a start, the accounts of Creation in the Book of Genesis cannot be read literally and were not intended by their authors to be read literally”  (What evidence is given for the statement???  None).  That nonsense set the tone of the rest of the article for me. A large portion of the religious DO take genesis literally (See polls of religious Christians worldwide). Saying “it must be a supernatural being because the universe has life” (Which is the thrust of this article) is tantamount to saying “we don’t have an explanation for something so we’ll make something up”. This is what happens to adults that are subjected to the child abuse that is religious indoctrination.

    • Roy Williams says:

      06:11pm | 25/07/11

      Mark, three things.

      First, James McKeown’s book Genesis (Eerdmans Publishing Co., 2008) is one of thousands of works of serious scholarship exploring that ancient text.  I am going to put up a separate post about the pitfalls of Biblical literalism more generally, but rest assured the vast majority of Christians in Australia today do not read Genesis 1-2 literally. Some Christians do, as you say - especially overseas. But many do not, and that has been so since at least the mid-nineteeth century.  Many theologians of the highest eminence have adopted a non-literal view of Genesis - Pope John Paul II was one.  I happen to think that young-Earth Christians are mistaken, and that their obscurantism is most unfortunate.  However, I also think they are closer to ulimate truth than you are.  If - a big “if”, I know - the Universe was created, then it’s very much a secondary consideration whether it happened 13.7 billion years ago or 6,000 years ago.

      Second, I’m well aware of the potential pitfalls of “God of the Gaps” arguments.  Some are stronger than others.  But, with respect, I think you are caricaturing the cosmological arguments I included in my piece.  A good book to read, if you’re prepared to keep an open mind, is God’s Undertaker? by Professor John C. Lennox of Cambridge University.

      Third, I was not subjected to any “religious indoctrination” as a child. I was raised in a non-religious family.  Like many adults who come to faith later in life, I did so on the basis of a thorough examination of the evidence and the arguments on both sides (and, though you may scoff at this, by personal experience of the grace of God).

    • Emily says:

      10:55am | 23/07/11

      Roy, just because you find something difficult to comprehend, does not mean that it is not true. The universe and life is awe-inspiring without invoking the presence of an omnipotent being. And just because we don’t know all there is about life, cannot constitute as prove for unsubstantiated beliefs.

    • Margot says:

      03:01pm | 23/07/11

      For me whether you believe in god or not comes down to a matter of perception. For example I believe in god, my mother doesn’t, but we see science and the universe around us exactly the same way save for one crucial difference she sees chaos and happy coincidence I see perfection and law and order.Were she sees our evolution as something that just happened “just because” I see it as inevitable because conditions were right.To me A+B =C to her A+B could equal anything. Belief in god is simply a matter of perception not intellect or social environment.
      Sadly religion does a disservice to many of us who believe in god by asserting that god is active and judging us.I believe in god but don’t believe it’s active or going to send me to heaven or hell,I don’t believe in heaven or hell.I simply believe that the universe was made with rules that have allowed it to unfold in the wonderful way it has,that everything is governed by maths and equations including the universes ultimate end,that something somewhere made these rules and when all is said and done will start the process all over again.
      When I was a little kid I heard a silly little fictional tale that struck a cord with me
      “long ago god woke up in the darkness for what seemed like sleep, alone and barely aware of itself.As it’s conciseness grew it searched the void for it’s own kind or a clue to what and why it was, but alas to no avail.As it began to understand more about itself it began to understand what it could do and out of loneliness,fear of becoming dormant again and a deep desire to understand how it came to be it decided to create something grand and ever changing,something wonderful that may hold it’s attention,sooth its lonliness and possibly give it answers to the nature and origins of itself and thus the universe was created”
      A silly tale I know but it’s always stayed with me.

    • Roy Williams says:

      05:23pm | 25/07/11

      Margot, I empathise with your conception of God.  It was my conception too, in the initial stages of my conversion.  I started with the conviction - based, as you say, on the same evidence as that which sways atheists such as your mother to their position - that there must be a God.  A First Cause.  The main reason I moved beyond that belief (Deism), to a belief that God is still active in each of our lives, was by reading the Gospels, Acts and many books about the history of the early Christian church.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:10pm | 23/07/11

      Not much more to say to you Matthew except that when your God’s Child other people’s words of insecurity coming from their worldly focus, hold about as much weight as a feather that flutters down into the abyss. It amazes me that people think they can rock the boat or cause a tide of doubts to rise with those who Love the Lord, but with Jesus manning the rudder it continues to sail smoothly.

      So Matthew you have God’s offer of friendship and unity with Him or His warning, both come from His Love…your choice.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Matthew says:

      12:11am | 24/07/11

      Hi Anne.

      You choose to focus on words rather than meaning.  Vague descriptions, rather than specifics.
      And from my specifics and clarity you will find far less “insecurity” than in arguments with no foundation and no clarity.
      It is through your own choices you make a far greater choice to close your mind to the reality right in front of you.
      This is not some vague reality.  It is not something to be imposed by someone.  Or proven by opinion.  This reality is there for everyone to see as individuals.  And thereby, in thinking clearly as an individual, coming together in the same truths and clarity as a society.

      It may amaze you that others think they can effect the world but there are three things to say to that;
      1) With your own writing, are you not trying to effect people and therefore he world?
      2) Is this a right which only you have?
      3) Are you really more capable than I of helping people?

      Lastly, if I have god’s offer of something, where do I see this?  If I want to offer anyone anything, I normally would write or talk.  Something pretty clear and obvious.
      Where do I see god’s apparent offer to me?

      Sincerely,
      Matt

    • Skutter says:

      07:26am | 24/07/11

      Anne,

      here’s a simple question for you.

      if you had been born in Saudi Arabia to devout Muslim parents, would you be telling us that “with Jesus manning the rudder it continues to sail smoothly” or would you be telling us that there is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his prophet.

      Think about it.

    • James King says:

      10:50pm | 23/07/11

      What I can’t believe about the human race is that we’re so smart in some ways and make no sense in others.
      If someone of great influence made something up like a God and wrote a book about it and preached it all day long, there would be people doing the same thing and creating a movement. Look how many times’s it’s happened? Just take a look at Scientology and their movement and Mullah Omar who thought he was the next Mohammad and influenced people to believe he was sent from Allah to teach ‘His ways’. How can people be so incredibly influenced and belive it to the extent they’ll die for it.
      Once something like this is ingrained and people talk to themselves enough (supposedly God), they think God is physically presence. Why talk yourself into it? 
      Anne and others, why do you keep avoiding answering important questions that are so important and only focus on scriptures etc. If people believe their religion is the right one (you must if you belong to a particular religion) how can you account for the numerous religions that exist. There’s more than just 5 or so, do a google search and you’ll find 40 or more including tribal religions.
      If you’re so right about God Anne Stocks,  then everyone else must wrong? You obviously don’t ask questions?? Inquisitive, curious and open-minded people are the reason we have everything technical in the world and making making technological progress. Our big brains are the reason people have religion and science. 
      Always Kind Regards from here

    • Levi says:

      11:03pm | 23/07/11

      Nice even observation of the observations so far!

      The biggest problem with atheists like Dawkins is that they seem to have two inherent flaws working within their arguments;

      A: They are desperately hoping that science is going to provide them with evidence that there is no creator (which can never happen)

      B: Due to the former condition they fallaciously espouse the implication that science is not methodological but is rather a-theistic as opposed to theistic, not neither as science in its true form is.

      This is why I never get into debating scientific principals with atheists, but rather debate with them why they are under the impression that somehow science is on their side and how it is they should believe science is their scripture from which they can build their doctrine.

      Once science itself is separated from the debate as being neither pro or anti the real points of argument can begin.

      I have never had an argument get past these valid points, more often than not you will get to the root causes of why the person wants to so passionately disbelieve in a God, some people have been taught this way, others hurt into it and some are just plain self centered and egotistical with no room for anyone to tell them what to do.

      I suspect that Steven Dawkins may feel he has a reason to have something against God as with many others.

      The real kicker about the modern atheist religion is that a lot of atheists seem to be under the impression that a-theism is not the reciprocal of theism, that’s a real hoot!

    • Skutter says:

      07:38am | 24/07/11

      Levi,

      drop the atheism is a religion canard please. It’s tiresome. We don’t “passionately disbelieve in a God” and we’re not “desperately hoping that science is going to provide them with evidence that there is no creator”.

      Like most supernaturalists, you have it backwards. It’s not about actively disbelieving in any of the thousand’s of god’s that have been invented. It’s just that when you lot tell us these stories and we read your books - WE DON’T BELIEVE YOU.

      The Bible is chock full of internal contradictions, it’s clearly inconsistent with known facts and offers nothing that wouldn’t have been known by goat herders 2,000 years ago.

      Not only that, the main character clearly states a number of times that the end of the world is going to happen in the lifetime of his followers.

      It didn’t. Like all Christian loonies predicting the “end times”, Jesus got it dead, flat wrong. Not very good evidence for divinity.

    • Matthew says:

      09:41am | 24/07/11

      Hi Levi.
      You have attributed two flaws to atheist arguments( A and B) and then introduced several more of your own.

      “Flaw’ A; Most atheists are fully aware you cannot prove a negative.  You can never prove there is not a god.  Nor can you prove there is not a teapot orbiting the sun,  It is a very common tactic of theists to demand such proof.  As you say, it cannot be done and we know that.  You are simply incorrect in saying atheists seek this proof.
      What we do ask of theists is to provide evidence or even proof of god.  Proving a positive is normal practice.

      “Flaw” B: You have predicated flaw B on Flaw A.  Flaw A is clearly incorrect, therefore, we can ignore B.  But just for completeness and fun, let’s look at that. Atheists say science is not methodological?  Are you joking?  The short version of the methodology;
        Observe.
        Describe.
        Create an hypothesis.
        Create a null hypothesis.
        Test your hypothesis.
        If passed, hypothesis = theory fitting all observed facts.
        Make predictions from theory,
        Test predictions.
        Keep going until you have proven the theory false.  If you cannot, the theory may be accepted as true.

      Further, the “a” in atheism does not stand for “anti”. A-theism is the absence of theism.  Therefore, as there is no god in the scientific method, it is by definition a-theistic.

      So you are 100%, wrong on both your flaws.
      As you say, you do not debate scientific principles.  I can see why.  You clearly do not understand the scientific method.  I expect no reply of any substance from you but I would love to know where I err in my description of the scientific method.

      I do agree that the science is not specifically either pro, nor anti theism.  However, to postulate a god as part of the scientific method you must also make real testable predictions.  This is yet to happen.  So while not being specifically pro nor anti god, up until now, it has made god irrelevant to scientific theory.

      Regarding a passionate disbelief in god, you are only viewing it from the theistic point of view.  To you, god exists 100%.  Atheists just passionately disbelieve in him.
      This is incorrect.  Do you passionately disbelieve in Zeus?  I would expect you just ignore Zeus as irrelevant to current explanations of the world.  It is the same for atheists.  There is no use for god in the scientific method so there is no need to passionately deal with him.

      However, there is certainly a need to passionately defend the scientific method!  This is becoming clearer and clearer.  If you have a problem with leaving god out of the scientific method, you are not a scientist.
      When you find people being passionate about the absence of god, look harder.  You’ll find passion about the existence of something else.

      Dawkins has something against god?  No you just don’t get it do you!  He Does Not Have A God.  Therefore there is nothing to have something against.

      Atheism is not a “reciprocal” of theism.  Theism is about god.  Atheism is the absence of god.  This is not a reciprocal.
      What is the reciprocal of a can of baked beans?  It’s absence?
      Additionally, you do not need theism to have atheism except to create the word.
      You could come across an intelligent life somewhere on another world where non have our language or a god.  They would be a-theistic without knowing it.  Therefore, atheism can exist without theism.

      Ciao
      Matt

    • mel says:

      10:12am | 24/07/11

      Levi, it seems that god botherers never quite understand what atheists are about. A: It’s not that atheists are desperately trying to prove a negative, as they know they cannot, but they worry about the lack of evidence put forward by the religious for their beliefs. I get the feeling that’s what most atheists argue about (well, I know I do). B: The only people I’ve heard describe science as atheistic are theists worried about the facts being presented. Scientists would think of science as simply a methodology at finding the truth about the world, one that works really well, it seems. Since a lot of (most?) scientists are atheists, it does make you think, doesn’t it.

      Of course, when you say ‘science’, do you actually mean evidence, as that is what scientists use to make decisions about the world? Of course, once you divorce evidence from the debate about the world, you as sure as hell end up with wacky superstitious beliefs.

      And always remember, atheism is not a religion (and I understand why you would want to blacken atheism’s name by calling it a religion, given all the bad things done under religion’s aegis, but it’s not a religion.) Remember too that atheists, and Dawkins is one of these, say that they have no belief in the existence of gods. Very different to saying there are no gods. It means that all you have to do is provide evidence for gods and people will change their minds. We’re waiting.

    • Matthew says:

      10:22am | 24/07/11

      @Skutter. 
      In hind-sight, did we just get taken in by a troll.
      If you swap the words atheist and theist in Levi’s post, it almost makes sense.
      And “Stephen Dawkins”?  Who?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:58am | 24/07/11

      Once again Matthew you have got it wrong ... I have Not stopped believing the Bible is right… “because God says so!’”

      It was also not me who coined the phrase veiled threat it was you and I don’t find it humours at all.

      In reality it is not me who warns you it is God because He Loves you, although I do care the same as Cynical_Me, Levi ,atthepub, Adam, William and all the other Christians who post on Punch, we are all His vessels and equipped, empowered and motivated to serve Him. I have much respect for my Christian Brothers and Sisters and Love them in the Lord, we are all the Body of Christ and He is the Head, we reflect Him and are His hands, arms, feet and voice and together we stand united for Him regardless of the abuse, insults, lies, mockery and even death for doing so. Luke 6:26-28

      We are not trying to convince you or anyone else or are we trying to prove God is real, because even if we succeeded someone could come along and change your mind again,  we are seeking to share God’s Truth,  the reason being is our Faith in the reality of God is not about the mind it is a heart conviction which makes it unshakable and it does not depend on us but the Holy Spirit empowering us, it is The Lord who will keep us strong till the end as we focus on Him regardless of the circumstances in our lives and we have heart assurance that He will work everything out for good.Romans 8:27-29

      But just in case you didn’t understand again Matthew…. it is all about our hearts being empowered by The Holy Sprit and we stand tall in the Lord, we are His stones 1 Peter 2:4-6 and we shout His Name from the housetops. Matthew 10:26-28

      http://youtu.be/R752dEbs1ac

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Matthew says:

      10:19am | 24/07/11

      Hi again Anne.
      When you read something, read it again.
      I did not say you stopped believing in anything.  I said you stopped writing the same circular statements where reasons to believe in the bible are in the bible.  Or the path to god is through god.
      It is good you abandoned this line of reasoning in your previous post.

      Also, I did not deny using the terms “veiled threat”.  I just thought that the in-your-face threat of eternal punishment used by so many religions was so obvious, that to refer to it as “veiled” was ironical.  And I enjoy a bit of irony.

      You’re not trying to convince people?  Honestly?  Then what effect do you intend.  You are essentially saying you only present the material.  But to what end?  What is the hoped for response?
      If all you want to do is present the material without convincing people, you can stop after writing “god rules!”.
      You have then both presented you opinion and convinced no-one.

      I think you are certainly trying to convince people.
      This is evidenced by your return to the circular reasoning that the only way to believe in god is to use the holy spirit which itself necessitates a belief in god.
      So other than being circular, your only reason to believe in god is because you already want to.

      And “because I want to” is one of the most fundamental reasons for human choices.  Please don’t misunderstand me.  This is not a bad reason at all.  If you help starving people, the homeless, downtrodden,  etc. “because I want to” could be the most selfless reason there is.
      If the reason you do good things is to get out of hell and into heaven, well, that’s not so selfless.
      I like to recognise the beauty and love in people’s good works by attributing the good to the person’s own choices and not some invisible, inactive, capricious god.

      Sincerely,
      Matt

    • Matthew says:

      10:26am | 24/07/11

      Sorry, Anne.  I forgot one point.

      The title of this is “The Best Arguments for God Are Purely Scientific”.
      This is a big part of why I expect to see some reasons for god, both in this thread and in your own posts.
      I’m hoping to see some.  Nothing yet.

      Bring on the Science people!!!!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:31pm | 24/07/11

      What you expect Matthew really is not the main focus or is it even the most important issue when we are referring to the things of Almighty God, He tells us what to proclaim not you.

      You may find this surprising Matthew but.God tells us also “The Best Arguments for Him are not Purely Scientific” regardless of what anyone including you claim.  He tells us the reality of Him will never be found in what worldly people consider important but in what He considers important.

      John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

      Jeremiah 29:12-14 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD

      God has shown in Creation His reality,  when you can create a living pet Matthew then I might consider taking what you say seriously but until then your understanding, reason and logic just does not measure up to God’s which means it doesn’t carry much weight with me, as for other Christians you need to ask them if what you consider is more important then God’s Truth.

      Believe me Matthew I respect your right to express your views but that does not mean I accept them when they are against what God tells us is right, you are also free not to read my posts or take them to heart that is your choice and if you check out previous topics on Punch not many keep to the issue,  it’s a bit like having a conversation don’t you think. 

      My Eternal reward waits for me does yours ? let’s hope it won’t be the penalty of a hard heart,  it is not God’s will that anyone perishes ...but it will always be your choice, He doesn’t want Puppets but those who accept His Love and Love Him freely ...  I will be praying for you Matthew that you will seek God while there is still time. 

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Matthew says:

      02:26pm | 24/07/11

      Hi again Anne.

      In your world view, nothing is as important as god.  Fine.  However, any absolute that involves an infinite concept is useless to use in a comparison.
      So to compare eating, sleeping, science or anything else with god is always going to end with god as more important.  Hence, it is only used to obfuscate decisions.

      You say god says the best arguments for him are not purely scientific.
      Then to discuss the core topic of this thread for a moment, I take it you disagree with the article at the top?
      Is this correct?


      Again your stuck on this idea that you can know god because the bible says so.  But the bible is a collection of stories from many places and languages.  You yourself said it has errors and translation problems.
      So how can we use a flawed text?  We can’t.  People can use it for interpreting whatever they want.
      You say the word of god is in there.  But which bits?  Who decides what is right in the contradictions?
      Apparently the bible is the source of god’s truth.
      The truth of the bible can be found in the bible and in the Holy Spirit.
      So to read the bible, you should commit to already believing in god or you can not understand the bible.

      The problem with all of this is that it requires belief without reason before you can even begin.
      Have I mentioned this circular reasoning you love so much before?

      You want me to provide a living pet I made?  What would this prove?
      If I produced a living pet, would that in any way prove there is no god?  Of course not. 
      And I can ask, and do ask, that you show me a god.  Please do this.  Or evidence of one.
      There is not a single piece of objective evidence that requires a god.  People only postulate a god for the unknown rather than seek to make the unknown known.  This is just lazy.  If we kept to that, you’d still believe the earth was the centre of the solar system and the universe.

      My understanding, reasoning and logic do not measure up to god’s?  Where does god demonstrate his understanding of the universe?  Or where does god demonstrate his logic?  Or his understanding?
      God’s understanding, reasoning and logic cannot be seen.  You assume they are there as these would be properties of a super being.
      But you have not one jot of evidence of any of it.

      Also, I appreciate this is a conversation but as you have yet to address any of my key points and can only quote the most mundane NT scripture at me, I assume you cannot address any of the real points in what I write.
      So your contribution to this “conversation” is inhibited but your inability to respond to the real points herein.
      Do you seek to address any of my points about OT actions sanctioned by god?
      Or address why your arguments for truth in the bible through truth in the bible is actually valid?
      Or why religions always come back to threats when thought fails?
      Or explain why you say you’re not trying to convince people but won’t say what the reason is for presenting the material.

      All I get is more scripture quotes as if to quote-mine a massive book like the bible is somehow helpful.  Again, I say that from the bible I can justify rape, killing the unborn, murder, etc, etc.

      Do you have anything to address my own points in this discussion or will you only repeat that I cannot understand without the holy spirit and quote the bible?

      Have a great weekend.
      Regards, 
      MattD

    • Anne Stocks says:

      04:53pm | 24/07/11

      Your not reading my posts with understanding Matthew, andyou are once againtwisting what I said,  but then being a naturel or wordly man how can you be expected to understand God’s Truth, perhaps we will just leave it at that.
       
      1 Corinthians 2 :14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

      Take Care - Kindregards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      07:38pm | 24/07/11

      Hi Anne.
      If I am misunderstanding you, please explain yourself, (without bible quotes to speak for you).
      What meaning have I twisted?  Please clarify.
      Thanks for saying I am natural.  It beats the alternative, (unnatural).

      Why do you never answer any question put to you.
      Earlier you said you never argue.  But you also said you point out where people are wrong.  As there’s no effective difference there, that is a contradiction.

      And for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, please drop the irrelevant bible quotes.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      02:30pm | 24/07/11

      mel says… What’s wrong with invisible pink unicorns? There is as much proof for them as there is for your wave-forming god! If you don’t believe that, try to disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns.

      Pink Unicorns depict Atheism represented by a a female god  
      But there were real Unicorns they were wild bulls,  so sorry they did exist but they weren’t pink so I can’t prove they were,  but if you want to paint them Pink and imagine their invisable ... it is your choice.
      In a way that is what Evolution and the Big bang has tried to do to God but he has His own paint remover and it will remove all the lies and only Creation as He told us in the Scriptures will be left.
      Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an Unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      04:43pm | 24/07/11

      Wow, Anne, they are some serious hallucinogenics you’re on. Can you explain why “Pink Unicorns depict Atheism represented by a female god”? Can’t boy gods be pink too?

      But I do like the idea of god as paint stripper: toxic if taken in large doses!

      And has anyone told you that quoting bits of the bible to people who don’t believe it will not convince them? Some evidence would be nice!

    • Matthew says:

      04:52pm | 24/07/11

      Female gods, unicorns that aren’t unicorns but are bulls, invisibleness, paint remover.

      Sheesh.  What a mess of a posting.  Been at the paint remover?

      @ Anne.
      Pink Unicorns depict atheism?  I didn’t know they cared.  But how can they depict it if they do not exist. I don’t mean the bulls you twist into being unicorns.  Real unicorns which are both pink and invisible.  In what way do they depict atheism?

      I love the point that Mel can choose to imagine them pink and invisible.
      Just like religion really.  Imagine it, then convince yourself and pretend invisible things count as evidence.
      Evolution and the Big Bang don’t try to do anything to god.  God is not part of the science or the thinking or the predictions made by the science.  So if evolution and big bang theory do anything to god, the theists are the one’s making the link.  Certainly not the scientists.
      The science is a-theistic.  It is absent of god.  Not theistic.  No god in it at all.  I hope Levi can get this point eventually.

      Now god also has paint remover and will wash away lies.
      hahahaha.
      Talk about screwed up metaphors. 
      Finally there’s another scripture quote regarding the superstitious impact of anointing oil from a mythical animal as if the scripture has any weight at all.
      What an absolute failure of thought, debate and conversation.

      So Anne, if you can summon the answers, please try and respond to the question marks in this little post.
      They show you the specific questions I’m posing to make holes in my own arguments.

      Sincerely, as always.

    • mel says:

      07:41pm | 24/07/11

      Hey Matthew, you are absolutely right. The fact that the all powerful unicorns are both pink and invisible is a true sign of their awesomeness. Other gods quiver before them. And it’s all true because I have a slip of paper in my pocket that tells me it’s true. Sure, it looks like something I wrote down yesterday but the words were given to me by the great invisible pink ones, and they are always truthful. They said so themselves, so it must be true! (Hang on, I think I just got caught up in a circular argument and I can’t find my way out.)

    • Levi says:

      03:46pm | 24/07/11

      @Mel

      “Of course, when you say ‘science’, do you actually mean evidence, as that is what scientists use to make decisions about the world? Of course, once you divorce evidence from the debate about the world, you as sure as hell end up with wacky superstitious beliefs.”

      When I say Science I mean the uncovering of facts based on methodological elimination.

      @ Matthew

      “Further, the “a” in atheism does not stand for “anti”. A-theism is the absence of theism.  Therefore, as there is no god in the scientific method, it is by definition a-theistic”

      Case and point, thanks for exampling that! You ranting was almost semi rational for a paragraph or two.

      Science is neither theistic nor a-theistic, it cannot take either position otherwise it fails to be objective in its reasoning and is inherently flawed from the onset, this is where you have displayed the inherent prejudice of your argument, you will note that most believers don’t cling to the hope that science belongs to their side of the argument for validation. Why do you, why don’t you just admit you are exercising faith in the believe of nothing after death?

      Religion= “the practising of a set of beliefs within a construct” Welcome to religion fellow religiousotisits from the church of a-theism!

    • Matthew says:

      04:36pm | 24/07/11

      So I say that the scientific method is a-theistic and you say “Case and Point”. 
      Science has no theism in it.  It is therefore a-theistic.
      How does this in any way agree with your concept that science is neither theistic nor atheistic?  Please show the logic.  Or in the absence of logic, stop saying science is neither.

      Now to your incredible comments that science fails to be objective and is inherently flawed. To make these kinds of over the top statements, you really do have to back them up with examples and logic.
      Again, if you do not, you should abandon the argument.

      As to your definition of religion, you’re missing a bit.
      You now need to look up the word belief.  As belief doesn’t fall within the realm of science, your definition of religion doesn’t either.
      So now you have to leave religion out of science.

      Gees, when you don’t back up your arguments, you really are left with bugger all.

      Have fun.

    • Matthew says:

      05:01pm | 24/07/11

      Hi again Levi.
      I forgot the first bit where you responded to Mel.
      Science is not methodological elimination in toto.  If it was, all unknowns can be attributed to anything you want.
      Science must prove things via prediction and testing.  This is not elimination.
      Here’s my summary of the methodology;
        Observe.
        Describe.
        Create an hypothesis.
        Create a null hypothesis.
        Test your hypothesis.
        If passed, hypothesis = theory fitting all observed facts.
        Make predictions from theory,
        Test predictions.
        Keep going until you have proven the theory false.  If you cannot, the theory may be accepted as true.

    • mel says:

      05:09pm | 24/07/11

      Levi, you need to quote the source of your definition, otherwise people will think you are just making stuff up. Is that the only definition of religion given, or are you being economical with the truth? What would your deity think of that?

      Now my 1972 Shorter OED has the following definition of religion, and I quote “Action or conduct indicating a belief in, reverence for, and a desire to please, a divine ruling power, the exercise or practice of rites or observances implying this”. All together, seven different meanings to the word are given, and six involve a belief in a deity of some sort. The odd one out is similar to the meaning you have given, but the OED describes the meaning has “transferred” and is in “figurative use”.

      So, in common usage, the word ‘religion’ relates to the worship of a deity. Did you not know that?

      If you are willing, however, to take figurative use rather than common usage as the important meaning, could you start convincing your fellow god botherers to drop the stupid objections they have to using the word marriage when it comes to same sex marriage?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      04:37pm | 24/07/11

      Skutter says ...Not only that, the main character clearly states a number of times that the end of the world is going to happen in the lifetime of his followers. It didn’t. Like all Christian loonies predicting the “end times”, Jesus got it dead, flat wrong. Not very good evidence for divinity.

      Looking up the word Skutter, I found on the web that it is a service Robot which is highly emotional and appears to be somewhat unstable and malfunctionel ..funny don’t you think so,  but no doubt your name is from a different nationality.

      Now let’s have some Truth… first Jesus Christ never said the world was going to end in the time He was on earth or that those who were alive at the time would be the ones to see the end of the world what He said was….

      Mark 13 :30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done….When read in context Jesus was saying that the Generation that sees the things that will be happening in the end times is the generation that will see Him return if you read Mark 13 you will see this is True… below are some of the things that will be happening in the end times…

      Mark 13: 6 -8 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles these are the beginnings of sorrows.

      Luke 21 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;  Matthew 24 also gives a good account .

      What you need to understand when reading Scripture is that Jesus spoke to them in their language about things they could understand…as an example if He said two woman will be working at Woolworths Supermarket and one will be taken they would have had no idea what He was talking about,  so He said…Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left and this they could understand .The same as if Jesus had said… don’t come out of the Rumpus room, Sauna room or Sunroom and worry about collecting your belongings…  In Israel it was common for a family to spend much time upon their housetops. The climate was usually mild and ideal for gatherings,  so Jesus said ...And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take anything out of his house.

      Since you are interested in Scripture Skutter, we need to remember what it says about those who do not believe in their heart that God is a reality…

      Psalm 14 :1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

      Take Care - Kind regard Anne

    • Matthew says:

      07:26pm | 24/07/11

      Anne, can you contribute thought rather than quoting from scriptures?
      Are you able to answer any questions I have posed directly?
      Are you willing to have a “conversation” where people listen and respond?

      So far, all you provide is meaningless quotes from a self referencing argument.
      I have methodically responded to the majority of your writings but you respond to very, very little.  And never with anything other than more scripture quotes.

      Please bring your own thought and consideration to the conversation so we can all learn and develop ideas.  In my estimation, communication is the greatest of human achievements and that is saying something.

    • Skutter says:

      05:49am | 25/07/11

      Anne,

      a Skutter is a mechanoid from the comedy series “Red Dwarf”. Quite comical characters.

      You said: “Now let’s have some Truth… first Jesus Christ never said the world was going to end in the time He was on earth or that those who were alive at the time would be the ones to see the end of the world what He said was….”

      I emailed Bart Ehrman about the Mark 13 :30 generation quote some time ago. Here’s his response:-

      ”    The term normally means “generation” – not something like the Caucasian “race” – although it can have a wider range of meaning.  The question is always what does it appear to mean in its immediate context (the question is *NOT* “what would I really *like* it to mean!).  In the context of Matthew 24, the question has to do with when the end can be expected to come.  To say that it can be expected before the Jewish people die out – what would that mean exactly?  It would be avoiding the question, rather than answering it.  If it meant what it typically means, however, it makes sense: it will happen within this generation.  The only reason people refuse to give it the common meaning, in this place, is because it obviously didn’t happen within that generation.  But that doesn’t mean that the words don’t mean what they mean!”

      Anne said: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”


      Oh you’ve done it now Anne! It’s off to the lake of fire for you!

      Matthew 5:22: But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

      Bart Ehrman:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrman

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:33am | 25/07/11

      Skutter ..you are not understanding about Biblical years and as for my being angry with you, it is not a sin to be angry, it is sin if you hold onto anger and allow it to cause you to seek revenge and so become bitter and resentful, this gives Satan a foothold and he can then manipulate you to do his will, which means you are under his control. Jesus Christ had righteous anger and even called the Church leaders a brood of vipers and I assure you He is not in Hell.

      But anyway I’m not angry with you Skutter, I have compassion for you, I was once an Atheist so I know what you are missing out on and the danger that you are in, also it was not me who called you a fool it was God confirming in the Scriptures that anyone who does not believe in their heart that He is real and their Creator is a fool .

      When it comes to judging others the Scriptures are not opposed to doing so by God’s Truth,in fct we are askedto rebuke, warn and correct errorboth male and feamale,  it is when it is based on our own wordly agenda and is not about Love because it is given with an attitude that we are better then them,  if we have this attitude we will end up falling into sin ourselves,  because it shows we have not been perfected in God’s Love or are seeking to be. The Truth is no one deserved to be saved we are all not worthy of God’s forgiveness and we can’t earn it ...it’s a free gift by the Grace of God who Loves us. 

      Kind regards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      10:23am | 25/07/11

      As usual Anne you do not properly read what people write.
      Skutter did not say you were angry.  He said you called him a fool.

      And therein lies the accuracy of his comment and your punishment according to scripture.

    • James King says:

      05:06pm | 24/07/11

      Matt, you can’t have a meaningful intellectual debate with people who have their religious blinkers on.

      Why do religious people continue to avoid answering questions in simple terms to the A-theist questions?

      There has been no LOGICAL answers to any of the questions put forward. This explains that religious people are not open minded thinkers. There’s also scientific proof that strong religious people on AVERAGE have lower IQ’s but are very good at art and daydreaming. Why is this offensive if you can’t provide answers ‘other than because the bible says so’ because God wrote it?

      Anne Stocks says:06:58am | 24/07/11
      Once again Matthew you have got it wrong ... I have Not stopped believing the Bible is right… “because God says so!’”

      Anne Stocks says:
      We are all the Body of Christ and He is the Head, we reflect Him and are His hands, arms, feet and voice and together we stand united for Him regardless of the abuse, insults, lies, mockery and even death for doing so. Luke 6:26-28

      Dear oh dear…...Anne, if you believe this, the thought process shows you are just as bad as a terrorist who blows up people for their cause!
      Did you also think God was making a return just because some wacko in the US was preaching this stuff?!  You’ll be waiting a long time!

      Atheism is not a religion! Why can’t people get that though their heads.
      Atheists do worship any infinite being. They do not ‘hate’ God because they don’t believe there is anything to hate.

      If you argue this then your not very intelligent!

    • Goodargument says:

      05:23pm | 24/07/11

      Psalm 14 :1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

      Have you thought that maybe this statement is in the bible because it threatens the belief? Doesn’t that sound logical? Probably not though.

      The same is seen in the Koran with Muslims calling non-believers Infidels. Some terrible things have been done in history to non-believers by ‘good’ religious people. It’s all about control. Poor Galieo nearly paid with his life for his scientific theory that the Earth revolved around the Sun and that we’re not at the centre of the Universe as the bible seems to sell. Do you religious people still think the Sun goes around the Earth even though we know that not to be the case? Therefore, if you believe all the scripture in the Bible then it’s FACT that you’re misled! Did you know there is still a Flat Earth Society because those refuse to believe the Earth is round as they’ve never seen it?
      Relious people - you have a lot of explaining to do!! Bible scripture does not count!!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:45pm | 24/07/11

      Goodargument perhaps you haven’t heard ...God said in the Scriptures over 4,000 years ago that the earth was round when people believed it was flat and held up by a giant.

      Isaiah 40; 21- 22 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?  It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: Also In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space—the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon.

      Would you please share Goodargument where in the Bible it tell us that Earth revolved around the Sun, and we really don’t know where the physical centre of the universe is. If God’s heavens are infinite in extent, then no centre actually exists but perhaps you have proof that shows where the centre is, the last I heard the Scientists can’t find the end of the Universe so how can they find the centre and they don’t even know how many stars there is, they can’t count them, they just go on and on like the Universe.

      Many Atheists have killed for years and done great evil,  do you consider yourself as one of them,  did you dash your babies on rocks like they did or did you tie your enemies arms and legs on four horses and send them in different directions ripping the person apart or perhaps you burned your baby alive to appease a pagan god hoping for rewards, did you throw the early Christians to the Lions or maybe you put the Jews in the gas chambers and made lamps out of their skin. No doubt you masterminded the bombing of the Twin Towers or are you Jack the ripper.? just because these people did these horrific evils,  I don’t accuse every unbeliever of doing them as you seem to be accusing Christians of the evil that those who are religious have done or continue to do… don’t forget it was the religious Leaders who put Jesus Christ to death,  find me one True Christian who wishes they could have helped them or who would have liked to have burned innocent women alive claiming they were witches, or are happy to hear of Christians being put to death in parts of the world today or were thankful that many lost their lives in the September 11th bombings .

      But yes we have all fallen short of the glory of God and in the flesh there is no good thing, this is why Jesus Christ had to die so those of us who believe won’t be punished for our sins and so we would also be set free from the bondage and slavery of sin.

      You have a choice Goodargument to believe in God or not to, if you choose to believe in Him and ask for His wisdom, you will not be a fool, if you don’t,  you will be and even if you reject the Scriptures this will not make you any less a fool.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:08pm | 24/07/11

      For those interested in the Pink Unicorns see links below and for those who don’t know,  the Hebrew word for Unicorn is a wild bull. The anointing Oil the Scriptures were referring to was the Holy Spirit and was not in reference to anointing the animal or Unicorn, it was a Psalm of King David and was in reference to him at the time of writing. he also said as he was lead by The Spirit… 

      Psalm 92:5 - 6 O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep.  A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn

      http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/unicorns.html

      Kind regards Anne

    • mel says:

      07:53pm | 24/07/11

      Poor Anne, you have been taken in by a fake, heretical webpage!  IPUs are both male and female and they are real (again, they told me so, so it must be true).

      Ignore that wikipedia page (wikipedia? Really?), and just believe in them and you will achieve heaven. The evidence for them is all there, just in front of you. Just think, a beautiful world and the glory of the heavens, all created by invisible pink unicorns. It doesn’t get any better than that!

    • Goodargument says:

      09:55pm | 24/07/11

      Anne, whether or not i’m right or wrong about what the bible tells us, pre-existing human understanding was that the Sun went around the Earth and Earth was flat because that is what they saw and the majority accepted this. We have come a long way since then in our understanding of the world and Universe. We do this because of our curiosity. Moral of the story, we are learning through technology and science! To take understanding in this modern world from the Bible is medievil and behind the times. 
      Anne, to return your condescending way, PERHAPS YOU HAVEN’T HEARD that scientists speculate they have found the centre of the universe. If there was a big bang, it would have had to start somewhere, would it not? Like a bomb, it went off in all directions? That that stuffed your argument. This is what I mean, science is logical, a religious mind is not.

      To respond to your violent theme, everyone, religious or not has the capacity to be violent, just like animals (since we are one) if they are threatened. Religion just gives people more of a reason to be violent because it creates bigotry and divide. Most horrible acts were either due to religion or race or both. It was fact that henious acts were instituted by the Church to non-believers or if it threated their faith!!!
      What do you make of Islamic terrorists and the struggle in Ireland etc and killing in the name of God/Allah? What a stupid thing to do. It happens all the time in the name of religion and that mentality you have to protect your God. You don’t see modern Atheists going around bombing people do you in the name of non-religion? What do you mean bombing of twin towers, I think that was the work of religious extremists….yeah? Jack the Ripper?? No one actually know who that person was?? How do you know he/she were not religious?
      The understanding that God and heaven was up above the clouds, in the sky made sense before space craft and aircraft ventured there. Does that make sense now? Where is Heaven now Anne? What is in Heaven Anne? Pleaaaase don’t quote me another bloody script! LOGICAL answer required!
      Why is it that everytime, humankind makes progress using science religious people have an answer for it justifying their faith. You people are very good at moving the goal posts when it supports your argument that God did it.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:42am | 25/07/11

      Goodargument,  please don’t give me orders what I can and cannot post,  you are not my Authority God is,  I don’t tell you what you can post,  if the Scripture worries you so much then don’t read my posts or respond to them.

      Also what your not understanding Goodargument is that there is a difference from being a True Christian and being Religious meaning as a generic term. But as you are worldly you will find this hard to understand but perhaps I will have the time to explain in more detail at another time, I need some sleep now.

      In regards to the Big Bang there is no Scientific evidence, which as you said before this means something never happened, this is the same as a lot of Darwin’s theories about Evolution, but perhaps you have found evidence. Please cut and paste if you have.

      Take Care - Kind regards Anne

    • Skutter says:

      07:57am | 25/07/11

      Anne said: “Also what your not understanding Goodargument is that there is a difference from being a True Christian and being Religious meaning as a generic term.”

      Ah, no true Scotsman eh?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

      Anne said: ” this is the same as a lot of Darwin’s theories about Evolution, but perhaps you have found evidence. Please cut and paste if you have.”

      Have a read Anne. (Allthough I doubt you will.)

      http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

    • Macon Paine says:

      01:40pm | 25/07/11

      This is how we know your trolling:
      “In regards to the Big Bang there is no Scientific evidence,”

      Please look here:
      http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

      So as you can see from the link the evidence is overwhelming. Unless of course God is attempting to deceive us into thinking a big bang took place.

      Cheers

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:58am | 25/07/11

      Not sure why this was not posted before but will try again, it does not contradict any of Punches guidelines but then I have had this problem before and then they post all of them and I have seen this happen with others, anyway perhaps you will receive this one and the other one too.

      I have a Home in Heaven already Mel ...so where is your final resting place? where are you going to spend eternity… are you going to wait for your pink invisible Unicorns to whisk you away and take you to their oasis ...what a lot of bull that would be.

      If the reality of God is to hard for you to understand Mel… then fly away with your invisible pink Unicorns,  Oh dear!  I forgot to ask do they have wings, my Nieces little ponies did and guess what they were Pink too, but alas, alas you could see them, they must not have been your ones.

      I just love Fairy stories with a happy ending, don’t you Mel but it does depend on who writes them, take wild bulls for instance they have been known to rip people apart, but I take it your invisible pink Unicorns… wings or no wings, are very gentle, peace loving and docile critters, that just want to play with you…sounds so nice and cosy, but wait ...what are you going to do for entertainment besides trying to see the invisible Pink Unicorns with or without wings.

      I think I will go back to reality but and it’s a big BUT, if you really would like to know some of the reasons why I have no doubt about the existence of a God of the impossible, feel free to contact me on anne.stocks@yahoo.com.au and anyone else who is having doubts about pink Unicorns are welcome to do so too, I have received some e-mails from others who post but that was on different topics as well as spam of course, I was offered a great deal of money, they just needed my bank details, how sad that people seek to deceive,  but then we are in the end times and it will get worse as prophesised.

      I have a very amazing Testimony that shows very clearly God’s reality, but I have shared some of it on other Topics if you would rather check these out, but perhaps Mel you really don’t want proof and would prefer to play with your pink invisible Unicorns with wings or no wings, that is of course if you can find them??? Have you ever wished Mel you were a bird and could fly away?

      Take Care- Kind regards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      10:06am | 25/07/11

      Hi Anne.

      I’ve read so much of what you have written in the thread.
      And I have responded in some detail to exactly what you have written.
      As you termed this a “conversation”, could you please respond to what I have written directly to you?
      Can you please answer my questions?

      Also, I believe a number of people posts disappeared last night.
      There must’ve been a bit of a gremlin in the system.

      Regards,
      Matt

    • mel says:

      11:23am | 26/07/11

      You have a home already, in heaven. Inshallah, of course!

      Anne, this conversation started in a public forum and I’m happy to keep it that way. That way others can share your “amazing testimony” that you have for your god. What irrefutable proof do you have for your god that discounts invisible pink unicorns, Zeus, Ahura Mazda, the Rainbow Serpent or the thousands of other deities floating about. What proof do you have that these are the end times (and how many times have we hears that said before!)?

      I shall be interested to see your version of “reality”.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:53am | 25/07/11

      Hi Skutter, I think I prefer the original understanding that I shared from the Internet about your name, as they say ...what’s in a name… besides you are answering for Goodargument so does this mean you are indeed a service Robot etc ???

      The Link you supplied only gives unproven theories except in regard to those things that are confirmed in Creation, please cut and paste the evidence if you believe I’m in error, evidence such as how the Big bang came about in the first place, as we know nothing can come from nothing and please also provide the evidence of how animals can adapt from one species into another such as an Ape into a Man or a bit of jelly into a living creature,  they have never found evidence of this in the past or now. It would help you Skutter to understand the truth of Creation, it has been proven… for a start no Scientist has been able to create viable life from nothing and that has been proven also. Please check out this Link but it’s your choice if you do or not ...  http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/aqoo/

      As for being a Scotsman. I’m not sure of my Maternal Ancestry, I could be a Princess, I was adopted, so even though my Dad was an Australian, I could have been Scottish on my Mum’s side.

      As for being a Christian I have no doubt that I’m a Redeemed Child of God and that He Loves greatly as He does you, The Holy Spirit has confirmed God’s Love and power many times in my Life, but I can’t talk for others, yes I can tell if they are following God’s guidelines in words and actions and seeking perfection as they walk in Christ Jesus by the empowering of the Holy Spirit, so yes I would say they are Christians if they are doing this but only God knows a persons Eternal destiny so even if those who call themselves Christians are not following God’s will and are rebelling,  I cannot judge them and this is the same as unbelievers, they may come to heart repentance on their death beds through the good seeds that have been planted even though their life will be a wasted one, this is why we witness, it is not God’s will that anyone perishes or receives no rewards and this will be so regardless of how good they think they have been, but He knows those who will repent and believe and those who won’t even before they are born.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      10:18am | 25/07/11

      Anne, it has been proven, many times over that something does certainly come from nothing.
      In fact, lasers were used to trap some of the something and ensure it was sustained for a time.
      So the idea that nothing can come from nothing is not true.  Simply not true.

      Science has no idea at this time where the big-bang came from, or even it that is really what happened.
      But 2000 years ago, science had no idea about lightning either.  Science always advances.
      I’m sure with all your reading and writing you aware of the concept of the god of the gaps.  Direct question here…..

        Do you think “god of the gaps” arguments are valid evidence for god?

      Regards,
      Matt

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:31am | 25/07/11

      It seems Matthew that you may have been listening to Fairy Stories again but please share some of the things that came from nothing, use as many posts as needed but let me assure you I have been around the block more then once, so please don’t try to pull the wool over my eyes, it shows lack of respect and reflects on your integrity. I don’t lie to you or anyone else and I expect the same consideration from others but of course you may really believe it, after all you believe there is no God contrary to all the evidence that there is confirming He is a reality… just look at yourself and your belly button.

      You said Matthew ...In fact, lasers were used to trap some of the something and ensure it was sustained for a time….so what was the something??? and where did the material come from in the first place to make the lasers???

      Anyway Matthew if you really believed what you heard that something can come from nothing, then I apologise for doubting your integrity. I once believed Evolution and the Big bang was for real too even though there was no proof but then I found out that I was lied to, still I was deceived for many years, let’s hope you seek for discernment sooner then I did so you can see deception and know the Truth like I do now.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:55am | 25/07/11

      It seems Matthew that this one got lost too,  I posted it last night… see below thanks for explaining about the glitches, but let me just say although I’m disabled which means I have more time then most, I still have other responsibilities and I’m being asked questions by quiet a few people at the moment and also on other topics,  but I do my best and will check a few times to make sure I haven’t missed anyone but sometimes I do, this is why I have made my e-mail address available for those who would like to know more about my assurance in a Living, God who is Loving and all powerful, there is only just so much I can share on a post although I have shared some of my amazing Testimony on other Topics, but as I have posted over 300 now they may be hard to find o if your interested my e-mail addressis ... anne.stocks@bigpond.com

      Last nights e-mail…

      Yes I enjoy all communication Matthew,  but best of all with my Awesome God, He touches my heart with His Love, Joy, Peace and Hope.

      I prefer to quote from the Scriptures Matthew, these are God’s written words of Truth,  your understanding is not, anyway it is my choice not yours, I don’t tell you what to write so stop trying to control what I post, my Authority is God not you.
      But please feel free not to respond or not to read my posts if the Scripture worries you.
      See you tomorrow - Kind regards Anne.

    • Matthew says:

      11:39am | 25/07/11

      Thanks Anne.  Now I understand you.
      You are here to present material.
      You are here to tell people they are wrong.
      However, according to you, you do not argue.
      You never acknowledge mistakes in your understanding of what others say.

      You also deign to respond to direct questions or provide anything outside scripture.

      Are you a scutter (in your chosen meaning) feeding bible quotes to discussion threads?

      You say you can be otherwise engaged and unable to respond.  This I understand.
      What I was trying to get to, is why, when you do write, you do not address a single point presented to you.

      Also, scripture does not worry me.  It is just tedious to work through, to get to your point.  The scripture is in no way adding to the validity or clarity of what you say. So it would be expedient to leave it out.  But of course, as you say, it is your choice.


      So to summarise, you are here to lecture.  Not listen or converse.
      If I am wrong, show me your responses to other’s points.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      02:20pm | 25/07/11

      Perhaps Matthew you missed this post I wrote it before your last post as you can see I have addressed your statments and I’m waiting on your reply.

      You It sees you have been listening to Fairy Stories again but please share some of the things that came from nothing, use as many posts as needed but let me assure you I have been around the block more then once, so please don’t try to pull the wool over my eyes, it shows lack of respect and reflects on your integrity. I don’t lie to you or anyone else and I expect the same consideration from others but of course you may really believe it, after all you believe there is no God contrary to all the evidence that there is confirming He is a reality… just look at yourself and your belly button.

      You said Matthew ...In fact, lasers were used to trap some of the something and ensure it was sustained for a time….so what was the something??? and where did the material come from in the first place to make the lasers???

      Anyway Matthew if you really believed what you heard that something can come from nothing, then I apologise for doubting your integrity. I once believed Evolution and the Big bang was for real too even though there was no proof but then I found out that I was lied to, still I was deceived for many years, let’s hope you seek for discernment sooner then I did so you can see deception and know the Truth like I do now.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      04:33pm | 25/07/11

      First you are making the implication that I am lying.  Insults are funny.

      The lasers were used to induce a massive, massive EMF to separate an electron from a positron that spontaneously appeared in empty space. Without the EMF, the two destroy each-other.

      What the hell has the source of the laser got to do with it?  Or are you also asking where the container comes from, and the vacuum pump, and glass, perspex, titanium, copper, neodynium etc?

      Note each “?” is a separate question.
      Here’s some others I have asked so I hope you can bring yourself to get to them.

      [Regarding the bible]
      Regarding change, error and corruption, you say “but God will revel these to us and confirm His Truth in other Scriptures”.  Other scriptures?  What other? Other chapters in the bible?
      So one passage can be corrected in another.  Which is true?

      [accuracy of the bible]
      “...man will be without excuse”.  So the contradictions in the bible, the hidden messages and immoral permissives are not excuses to disregard the bible?

      [Totalitarian threats]
      Then there is the veiled threat that I will be punished.
        “you will still be accountable to Him and be judged and punished for your sins”.
      And then you contradict.
        “Jesus Christ who Loved you enough to die for you even knowing you would deny Him so you wouldn’t be punished.”
      So will I be punished or not?

      ...Are not these threats the final refuge of the weak?

      [Bible accuracy]
      You have attributed words to god but again, these words only appear in the bible.  And this was written by man, translated, obfuscated, corrupted and manipulated.
      Who could say if a single word was from a god?  And then, if from a god, which god?

      [On your amazement that I write to discuss.]
      It may amaze you that others think they can effect the world but there are three things to say to that;
      1) With your own writing, are you not trying to effect people and therefore he world?
      2) Is this a right which only you have?
      3) Are you really more capable than I of helping people?

      [[On god offering a prize]
      ... if I have god’s offer of something, where do I see this?  If I want to offer anyone anything, I normally would write or talk.  Something pretty clear and obvious.
      Where do I see god’s apparent offer to me?


      [Again on you not trying to convince.]
      You’re not trying to convince people?  Honestly?  Then what effect do you intend.  You are essentially saying you only present the material.  But to what end?  What is the hoped for response?

      [On the thread topic, and your thoughts]
      You say god says the best arguments for him are not purely scientific.
      Then to discuss the core topic of this thread for a moment, I take it you disagree with the article at the top?
      Is this correct?

      [On my misunderstanding you]
      If I am misunderstanding you, please explain yourself, (without bible quotes to speak for you).
      What meaning have I twisted?  Please clarify.

      [on the unknown]
      Do you think “god of the gaps” arguments are valid evidence for god?

      Regards,
      Matt

    • Goodargument says:

      07:07pm | 25/07/11

      Listen to me Anne please…........I was not ordering you not to say anything. I was looking forward to a meaningful debate with you which includes analysing each others argument and providing answers from your own mind and not from a book called the bible translated to english in ink from a copy machine bound together with man made materials from a time when understanding of the world was primitive. I feel like we’re on a a merry go round.
      I have questions that have gone unanswered. That is because A: You do not know or B: It will threaten your argument. 
      If you are saying that something cannot come from nothing, then God must have an origin. Where did God come from?
      Anne, a true Christian is just the same as a true Muslim or a true Jewish people or anyone else who is committed without reservation that their friend in the sky is real. Christianity is not the only religion that followers think is the ‘right’ one. Religion definition: The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
      Scientific evidence on the big bang or evoloution holds significant more weight than a medievil book and Church following on Sunday whose priest molestes little boys. And you talk about INTEGRITY. These religious leaders are supposed to be one of the pillar of society but that’s entirely another argument all together. Arguments and links for evidence of the big bang theory has been posted below yours. The reason the Universe exists has not been discovered YET! When and if it does, you religious people will find some other explanation why God did it. If and when lifeforms are found outside our planet, you people will have an answer for it.

      Sounded like you needed sleep because you are making no sense.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:56pm | 25/07/11

      Goodargument and Matthew, I have answered your questions more then once but you are just not listing because you don’t want to hear the Truth, but I will try again,  there is one God only,  the rest are pagan gods, thy have no real power, they are counterfeit to Trust in them and not in God your Creator will lead to despair,  this is why God warns us not to have any god’s but Him, He alone is genuine not counterfeit.

      I use the Scriptures in my conversation because this is how I communicate God’s Truth,  I do so because I care for those who are lost like I was,  you both have nothing to offer others eternally because without Faith you have no hope of fulfilling all that God has planned for you now and in Eternity and whether you believe in Him or not you will be accountable to Him,  He has provided a way of escape in Christ Jesus if you choose not to accept it than you are responsiablefor the consequences for what you will experience eternally, not God…Matthew if you believe that is a veiled threat it is because you have made it that way, by your denial of the reality of your Creator God He can not help you because you won’t let Him..

      I repeat neither one of you have shown evidence for the Big bang or Evolution and yet you are surprised that I dismiss them both but it seems you also forge I was an Atheist and believed in Evolution so I know there is no proof, this is why it’s not hard for me to focus fully on God, I have nothing blocking my view, I don’t have any doubts, I know what He tells me is True because He is not a liar.

      Goodargument and Matthew what you both won’t accept is that I do have evidence of His existence both by His words in the Scriptures that state things that only God could have known when man recorded them as He told them what to write, but also in my own life and others, as I said my Testimony is truly amazing and no one but God could have caused the Miracles and signs and wonders that I have experienced and I’m not a happy clappy Pentecostal or did I ask for them, they just happened,  I also have a very warm personal relationship with God, my Abba Father and I Love Him deeply and yet His Love for me is so much greater, as it is for all His children.

      I know that there is more of your questions that need to be addressed but I will write again tomorrow, I had a late night and an early morning .

      Kind regards Anne

    • Goodargument says:

      10:20pm | 25/07/11

      Ok Anne,

      No worries, there’s no point asking for any more questions because you are not answering mine or Matts in any depth.

      No…..your god is the pagan god because other religions say so. Your god has no power, what has it done for humankind in our lifetime?

      I am not afraid of empty threats of consequence of not believing. I make my own choices and set my own path in life, responsible for my own destiny. I am doing very well thankyou and I like helping people just like you but not with god bothering. I get great satisfaction by this so my soul is full and people love me. I don’t need to relish a religion or a supernatural god because it would be an insult to my intelligence.

      You are very naive if you believe that god was telling man what to write. How do you know? Were you there? Did god tell you? Oh I see, it sent you an email.
      I’ve had some amazing things happen to me too, if only you knew, but I don’t put it down to a supernatural force called god high in the sky.

      Anne said: I also have a very warm personal relationship with God, my Abba Father and I Love Him deeply and yet His Love for me is so much greater, as it is for all His children.
      I said: I’m happy for you even if I think you’re a loony!

    • Levi says:

      12:16am | 26/07/11

      You have to be religious in order to be an atheist, sorry folks it’s pure logic.

      Here’s a quote from goodagrument, he says:

      I don’t need to relish a religion or a supernatural god because it would be an insult to my intelligence

      The halls of academia are filled today with intellectually dishonest people who are just hedonists hiding behind constructs that they desperately argue are not religious. They are irreverent of their predecessors, arrogant and haughty and they are mockers of persons who attribute a greater power to other than self.

      Most worship their own intellect and it’s works as divine others simply worship pleasure and the moment.

    • Matthew says:

      12:59am | 26/07/11

      Hi Levi.
      Just as with Anne, please respond to my earlier questions to you.

      As usual, I will read and when I respond, I will respond to you, quote you and lay out my own thoughts.
      It would be good if you could bring enough thought to your comments to at least respond clearly to what others write.

      Now to what you wrote….
      One, As Mel and I have both discussed at length, religion involves a belief in a deity.  Therefore, atheism, (The absence of a deity) is not a religion.
      You could argue that is not what you mean by religion.  That’s fine.  But it is what atheists mean.  If you modify the meaning to change our meaning, you are being false.  You know that atheism is the absence of any and all deity.  And you know religion involves a deity.  Therefore, they are mutually incompatible.

      Hey Levi!!!!!  Here is a question for you: 
      Where am I incorrect in my definitions or logic?????????
      Let’s have a dialogue.

      The rest of your writing is predicated on the notion that atheism is a religion.  And that’s been falsified.

      You also say intellectuals “worship” their intellect.
      Man you really need a dictionary.
      Do Catholics worship Mary?  No.  She is not a god and to do so would be against the commandments.  This is because worshipping is what you do towards a deity.
      Intellectuals do not see themselves as deity’s.  You might may see them as such.  But that’s kind of like the ignorant tribe who think glass beads are priceless.  It is not a fault.  It is just ignorance that learning and knowledge overcome very quickly.

      Regards,
      Matt

    • mel says:

      12:18pm | 26/07/11

      Levi, given what you’ve just said about academics and intellectuals in general, do you think you are a mocker of persons who have a greater intellect than you?

      And logic really isn’t your strong point, is it?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:36pm | 26/07/11

      So Matthew what are you basing your believe on that there is no Deity ...You exist Matthew so how do you exist where did you come from, it has been proven as well as commonsense, Logic, and reason tell us, something cannot come from nothing not even a leaf let alone a Human being so finely tuned and as to a blueprint fully functional with all parts synchronised and working in unison.

      Of course I realise you want to base your conclusions on Science as you said quiet adamantly that “The Best Arguments for God Are Purely Scientific”.no doubt assuming we didn’t have any Scientific facts.

      Also Matthew you still haven’t explained were natural compounds to create lasers come from, yes we know they are mirors that have a reflective substance but were did this substance come from in the first place meaning the componants that it is made out of.

      Here’s your summary of the methodology to prove if you exist and how you came to exist ...go for it
        Observe.
        Describe.
        Create an hypothesis.
        Create a null hypothesis.
        Test your hypothesis.
        If passed, hypothesis = theory fitting all observed facts.
        Make predictions from theory,
        Test predictions.
        Keep going until you have proven the theory false.  If you cannot, the theory may be accepted as true. 

      I will of course Matthew respond to your other questions after we have resolved where you came from - Kind regards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      06:47pm | 26/07/11

      Hi Anne AND EVERYONE.
      I REQUEST THAT EVERYONE READ THIS AND CONTRIBUTE AS PEERS TO MY FIRST HYPOTHESIS BELOW.
      And please excuse the all-caps.

      OK, you’re asking questions as usual and I’m responding.  You never do that.

      1) User the scientific method to prove I exist.
      Observe:  I exist.  I see me and feel me.
      Describe:  Weird pink thing.  hair in spots.  hard in spots, squishy in others.
      Seems to interract and impact the world around self.

      Create a hypothesis:
      I hypothesise that if I enter a room and stare at another, they will respond as they see me.
      I hypothesise that if I bump in to someone from behind so they have not seen me, they will respond.
      To remove other humans from the equation, I will walk close to my cat and stare at it, it should look at me, and respond.
      Due to lack of language for the cat, note varied responses would be received from the cat.

      Create null hypothesis:
      If I cannot induce reaction in others by my self perceived presence, they do not perceive me and I may not exist.

      Test:
      Everyone (3 ppl)  looked at me like an idiot when I stared at them.
      Person R said “what’d you do that for?”, when I walked in to him.
      Cat moved closer and bumped it’s head on me.  Then meowed.
      Separate time, cat stared and blinked slowly.  Then started purring.

      All tests as designed, passed.
      Theory is now that I exist as I can influence and am influenced by the world.

      Prediction: When I post messages online, others will sometimes respond.
      When I speak, I will get responses.
      When others speak, I can respond even if they were not addressing me directly.
      When I psuh some objects, they will move.
      When moving objects push me, I will move.  The immediacy of my physical response depends on whether the push is on a squishy or hard bit of my apparent being.

      Test Predictions;
      All passed.

      This theory can be accepted if others agree this is a good enough test of my existence.  OTHERS DO YOU ACCEPT I EXIST FROM THESE TESTS?


      Now on to your second question.
      I have repeatedly said we do not know everything and accept that fact.  So again I will say we do not KNOW how the universe started at all.  We only have scientific theories.
      For you to hold that up as evidence for or against anything at all is not honest.
      To fill an unknown cause with god does not fit observed historical results.
      In the passed, zero causes, where they used to be unknowns, have been filled with god.
      So of the millions of identified causes, zero have been god.  From experience, to suggest that any other cause will be god does not follow.  It is unlikely.  And it serves no purpose that the experimenter has not a vested interest in.

      Yesterday you said you’d get to the questions today.
      Now you refuse to unless I know everything there is to know about the universe.  So you lied huh?
      And you hide behind what you know is a logical fallacy.

      From this, you have, by implication only, answered my question about the god of the gaps.  You clearly do accept the god of the gaps is a valid argument.

      As I said earlier, you are not here to engage in a conversation but to lecture people as if you are the sole source of intelligence and intellect.
      Your pride in your own brilliance is as shameful a sin as any other.

      So far, the one and only argument you have put for god’s existence is the fact the the universe had to be started.
      Your lack of response to even the simplest questions exposes your lack of honesty in engaging in conversation with others.

      Are you also proud of your trickery and dishonesty?
      Note how I have read what you wrote with clarity.  I have considered what you wrote.  I have considered what you meant.  I have responded.
      You still refuse to do the same.

      I’m starting to consider the hypothesis that you are actually not worth engaging in conversation as you fall back on dishonesty and trickery.
      My test would be if you do not honestly answer 3/4 of the questions I posted earlier, you are not expressing a desire to converse with thought and respect.
      Null Hypothesis:
      If the answers are empty of information, they are not answers and do not contribute to my 3/4 mark for responses.
      Answers based on these are excluded from contributing to the count;
        bible quotes,.
        insults.
        statements without meaning,
        Logical fallacy, (this is a large category if logical errors).
        god of the gaps, this is in the Logical Fallacy category as well.
      If the 3/4 response mark is not met, this will suggest the theory is true.

      Now please give me the respect I have consistently shown you and respond with thought, intelligence and respect.

    • Matthew says:

      06:54pm | 26/07/11

      Anne, another question… what have mirrors got to do with lasers?
      You’ll probably ignore this question too. but until my hypothesis about you is proven, I’ll keep being respectful.

    • Goodargument says:

      03:26pm | 26/07/11

      If God exists, where did God come from?

      ” You have to be religious in order to be an atheist, sorry folks it’s pure logic.”

      No you don’t and no it’s not logic. You are wrong. Arguments from religious people are just as illogical as their belief in God but everyone’s different and everyone has the right to an opinion.

      “Also Matthew you still haven’t explained were natural compounds to create lasers come from, yes we know they are mirors that have a reflective substance but were did this substance come from in the first place meaning the componants that it is made out of.”

      Maybe do some more reading and find out where the elements came from, Science is not your strong point is it? I can understand why though.

      “- mockers of persons who attribute a greater power to other than self.”

      From Mel: “do you think you are a mocker of persons who have a greater intellect than you?”
      Well said!

      Levi said “Most worship their own intellect and it’s works as divine others simply worship pleasure and the moment.”

      People who do not believe in a deity don’t worship.
      This has probably been done to death but hear goes again!
      Worshipwor·ship/?w?rSHip/
      Noun: The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity: “ancestor worship”.
      Verb: Show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites

      de·i·ty/?d?-it?/Noun
      1. A god or goddess (in a polytheistic religion): “a deity of ancient Greece”.
      2. Divine status, quality, or nature: “a ruler driven by delusions of deity”. 

      Shoots a hole in your argument don’t you think.

    • Max says:

      03:30pm | 26/07/11

      The halls of academia are filled today with intellectually dishonest people who are just hedonists hiding behind constructs that they desperately argue are not religious.

      That’s just your opinion and you’re entitled to it!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:29pm | 26/07/11

      If God does not exist Goodargument where did you come from, it takes a lot of Faith to believe in Evolution and the Big bang theory? because they have no Scientific proof,  which means if you do believe in them you are Religious and not only are you Religious but you are worshiping a false god. So please explain Goodargument again how you came to be a human being ?

      Kind regards Anne

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:06pm | 26/07/11

      I’m answering your questions in order Matthew, I will share about the god of gaps when we get to it after all I don’t want to upset you again by not answering the other questions you asked before, but anyway do you believe in him?

      It would also be helpful Matthew if you answered not just bits and pieces of what I ask , for example you didn’t answer the last question fully, of course I know you exist who did you think I believe I’m having a conversation with, certainly not your invisible pink Unicorn.  I’m also aware I exist because God created me, the rest of the question was where did you come from, or how did you come to exist and please don’t say we are waiting for Evolution Scientist to discover how we evolved that’s not good enough, you don’t have anything to support your believes nothing,  which means what you believe is all about faith in Evolution which means it is a Religion so you are indeed Religious and worshiping a false god,  because as you said if there is no Scientific evidence then it’s just unfounded faith which Religion is all about or is it the god of the gaps that you worship.
      Kind regards Anne.

    • Matthew says:

      10:52pm | 26/07/11

      Hi Anne.

      I believe I understand your questions.  You are asking where I came from but you do not mean in the biological sense which is easily answered.  You mean in the theological sense where the first part is to define what “I” means.  Or define what self means.
      These questions cannot be answered to your satisfaction without a deity.  I know you do not accept evolution and evolution is part of where I think all animals, including us, have come from.  Even our sense of self.
      To think of something, while it may not be shown to your satisfaction is not a belief.  And belief is not a religion.
      Belief has absence of any evidence.  There is much evidence for evolution which you already know.  There are outstanding questions to investigate and answer.  But this does not negate the existing evidence.
      There is ZERO evidence for a god.  You simply are postulating that in the absence of knowledge of something, we must insert a god.  This is again your usual god of the gaps for which there is no evidence.

      A belief is not a religion as religion requires a deity whereas a belief is simply absence of evidence.  They are not mutually exclusive, as religion requires belief.  But belief does not cause religion.
      In either case, as stated above, there is evidence for evolution and therefore acceptance of evolution is not a belief.
      If you disagree with this, why does belief require religion?  And as religion requires a deity, what deity is it?

      We are not waiting for evolution scientists to come up with where we came from.  Many many small steps need to be made and many are being made along the way.
      We are working on evolutionary biology, biological chemistry etc.  And every year, the gap where you insert god shrinks.
      To assume this will stop / cease progression is simply a belief on your behalf.

      I did not say there is NO evidence. I said there is not a complete picture.
      There are thousands and thousands of publications and papers on evolution. All evidence based.
      This is not NO evidence.

      You take the idea of SOME evidence and turn it into NO evidence.
      Then regarding god, you take the NO evidence and make up SOME.
      Little backwards there.

      Now, will you answer my questions or just keep posing more of your own to avoid answering any?
      Another one.  What in any of my writing says I believe in a god of the gaps or worship one?
      Nothing?  Then why do you write such drivel?
      Aha!  I’ve got it.  You’re moving on to inferring the ridiculous to make it seem my thoughts are ridiculous.  Kind of lame.  All your last post resolves down to;
      You will answer questions when you get to it.  [This statement means nothing]
      You want me to answer what we both agree is impossible. [I can just admit it, whereas you insert god].
      You are only aware you exist because of god.  [rofl.  I wonder how people who have never heard of your god know they exist.]
      You still think incomplete knowledge of the universe or biological processes means zero knowledge.  And you then assume we not only can insert god.  But should insert god.


      Note again, I have addressed what you wrote by reading and re-reading.
      To be explicit, where you say “the rest of the question was where did you come from, or how did you come to exist”, I believe I have covered.  We all know the reproductive biology, and I know you do not accept the evolutionary biology.  This is where you insert a god to replace the unknowns rather than seek to study and investigate the unknowns.

      Yet again, I have worked through your posting.
      And yet again, you ignore my questions. You just keep posting your own.

      I guess this suggests my second hypothesis is right.

    • Goodargument says:

      09:46pm | 26/07/11

      C’mon religious people, this forum is called the PUNCH, if you are so passionate about your conventional religious belief (Christian/Islam/Jewish etc) and sensitive and take offence to some things here, why don’t you answer some of these questions (properly rather than stuff you read and have been told). STILL THERE IS NO COMPREHENSIBLE ANSWERS to any of the arguments presented by people of faith. You have not explained (apart from a mad made bible) HOW God exists and where IT came from and WHY IT exists let alone why we are here on EARTH, If you can’t explain things simply then you are foolish for believing in a text written by man 2000 years old when we know significant progress has been made. (To Anne Stocks: How can you have a relationship with an invisible being? Come on, what does it’s voice sound like? How do you know it is Male? Do you hope to have IT"S children?) In our realistic world, doesn’t that sound loopy? how can you DIRECTLY (without bible) credibly expain It’s existance. Have you EVER thought that it could be in your head.

      The answer that your religion is the TRUE RELIGION by saying that all others are Pagan, how do you know this? Why are other religions/beliefs just as strong? You ask them, they’ll have just as much committment to their God as you do! You say they are wrong! WHY?? They think you are that’s why humans are blowing each other up!!

      Where were dinosaurs on Noah’s ark?? If they lived alongside men before or after, why isn’t there more text written about this?
      Why did other tribes years before Jesus have so much faith in their religions and their people continue to die for it. Ie the Aztecs (Sun god etc)
      Religion is becomming less mainstream in Australia. There’s a good reason for that! You have an opportunity to explain your beliefs on a forum like this. If you cannot take some PUNCHES, then you are on the wrong forum. You will not convince people to convert because they’re not weak here! Smart people ask questions and do not just take an answer here as gospel!
      You are entitled to an opinion, I respect that, but you have to able to take some PUNCHES

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:31pm | 26/07/11

      So please explain again Goodargument how you came to be a human being ? with Scientific evidence.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Goodargument says:

      10:14pm | 26/07/11

      Anne, I would love to believe in a god who looked after me and presented me with paradise when I died and someone who would talk to me day and night and provided me with a source of companionship. I am a good person, help others and used to pray and go to confession etc, etc, but I have never heard the actual voice of God or seen him visit or help me when times were bad etc so why would I believe this? Neither has anyone else has.

      We have spacecraft, mobile phones, computers and electricity. We can modify DNA and clone animals. This is due to science (could it be done 2000 years ago?) If God is so great, why would IT let us interfere with IT’s great work? We are working on unanswered questions using science.
      Evolution is a collective understanding of our history so far and is far more credible than the bible due to the progress of human understanding. If god was so great, why didn’t Jesus and his disciples talk using mobile phones and fly on aeroplanes to their destinations? 
      I’m not sure how I got here Anne, these are questions yet to be answered (since we don’t have all the answers yet) but the evolution theory is more substantial than a 2000 year old text written by village people. As far as your belly button theory goes, there’s many other things that happen randomly in nature, maybe it’s another example how evolution takes a long time (just look at the montreme, (platypus for you))

    • Goodargument says:

      10:22pm | 26/07/11

      Matt, you exist! 

      From the famous René Descartes - I think, therefore I am!

    • Goodargument says:

      10:39pm | 26/07/11

      “It takes a lot of Faith to believe in Evolution and the Big bang theory? because they have no Scientific proof,  which means if you do believe in them you are Religious and not only are you Religious but you are worshiping a false god. So please explain Goodargument again how you came to be a human being ?”

      Ummmmmmmmmmm, hahahaha how can I be worshiping a false god, Annne which god am I worshiping and how can I be religious? The god of the nature or the god of ????? Worshiping means I have to believe in a Deity which I don’t so PLEASE EXPLAIN??
      Please tell me what drugs god asked you to smoke because I’d like some!

      Anne, again we don’t know exactly how we came to be a human just like we don’t know exactly how you came to be a Christain!
      I, like many other scientists don’t believe we know exactly how we came here, unlike religious people (they think they’ve known for 2000 years but couldn’t give us any other answers), but scientists are working on it. Evolution is not the full answer yet but it’s the best explanation we have at the moment. 
      Please say Hi to his Godlyness for me!

    • Anne says:

      11:00pm | 26/07/11

      Goodargument,  to Clone you must start with a live embryo or cell so how did this originate? also they have found that Cloned animals who do survive can’t reproduce naturally if not produced by artificial insemination, nor is their life expectancy as long as naturally conceived animals.

      Cloning is an incredibly inefficient technology that results in a tremendous loss of animal life. From grossly oversized heads, twisted limbs, and bloated fetuses to malformed kidneys, immune system deficiencies, and respiratory distress, cloned animals and their surrogate mothers suffer from any of a variety of severe health problems, abnormalities, and deformities that are seen only rarely otherwise.

      http://www.endanimalcloning.org/animalwelfare.shtml

      Points against Animal Cloning In a large percentage of cases, the cloning process fails in the course of pregnancy or some sort of birth defects occur, for example, as in a recent case, a calf born with two faces. Sometimes the defects manifest themselves later and kill the Clone.  ( This comment was from one promoting Cloning so sad.)

      So please explain again Goodargument how you came to be a human being ? with Scientific evidence.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Matthew says:

      11:28pm | 26/07/11

      So please explain Anne evidence for god ? with scientific evidence.

      And again:
      Note how I have read what you wrote with clarity.  I have considered what you wrote.  I have considered what you meant.  I have responded.
      You still refuse to do the same.

    • Goodargument says:

      11:43pm | 26/07/11

      Anne, you have obviously misread the fact that we do not know how we came here yet…......but we are working on it. Broken record here.

      As for cloning, we’ve only just started doing it, just like everything, takes a while to perfect…..hey? Like our scientific history, knowledge is built on more knowledge. I’m not promoting this stuff, just saying that your god is allowing it to happen…...........WHY???

      ANNE, WE DON’T KNOW EXACTLY HOW WE CAME TO BE HERE YET, BUT IT’S A WORK IN PROGRESS!
      PLEASE EXPLAIN AGAIN HOW QUOTES FROM A 2000 YEAR OLD TEXT EXPLAIN OUR BEING HERE?

      If we discover God, and find out how to clone IT, wouldn’t that be great.
      2 more gods!!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:45pm | 26/07/11

      Matthew says…Anne, another question… what have mirrors got to do with lasers?

      I really can’t believe you asked that question…

      A laser consists of a gain medium inside a highly
      reflective optical cavity, as well as a means to supply energy to the gain medium. The gain medium is a material with properties that allow it to amplify light by stimulated emission. In its simplest form, a cavity consists of two mirrors arranged such that light bounces back and forth, each time passing through the gain medium. Typically one of the two mirrors, the output coupler, is partially transparent. The output laser beam is emitted through this mirror.

      Light of a specific wavelength that passes through the gain medium is amplified (increases in power); the surrounding mirrors ensure that most of the light makes many passes through the gain medium, being amplified repeatedly. Part of the light that is between the mirrors (that is, within the cavity) passes through the partially transparent mirror and escapes as a beam of light.

      Matthew you still haven’t explained were natural compounds to create lasers come from, yes we know they are mirrors that have a reflective substance but were did this substance come from in the first place meaning the components that it is made out of.

      Please don’t say they evolved there is no evidence of this and it you are a reality you must have come from somewhere if you have faith in evolution without it being proven why don’t you believe in God even though you claim there is no proof for Him… doesn’t makes sense, why one and not the other ...perhaps you know deep down you don’t measure up, maybe you should accept His gift of Salvation.

      Another question answered- Kind regards Anne

    • Matthew says:

      09:01am | 27/07/11

      Ahhh.  Your knowledge is so limited.  You are describing a laser such as a ruby laser.
      Lasers do not actually require mirrors.
      A laser can be created directly such as through semiconductors creating coherent light without the need to start with incoherent light as in the earliest lasers.
      Just so you know, these are still called lasers as they are coherent.  Even though they do not necessarily consist of light amplification.

      Who would ever suggest something designed and built by humans was evolved?  Evolution only applies to biological processes.
      Although colloquially we may refer to thought evolving, neither of us is referring to this.

      So you’ve answered one question so far by clearly describing your understanding of lasers and the workings of a simple laser.  This was the only good answer I have had in this entire discussion.  However your answer was correct for a subset of lasers.

      Good work.  1 real answer delivered.  Thank you.
      Keep at it.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:56am | 27/07/11

      Goodargument says ...Anne, you have obviously misread the fact that we do not know how we came here yet but we are working on it… Broken record here.

      First in reference to Cloning you said…. As for cloning, we’ve only just started doing it, just like everything, takes a while to perfect..hey?... The Truth is that Hans Adolf Eduard Driesch a German Biologist was credited with performing the first cloning of an animal in the 1880s

      You also said ....PLEASE EXPLAIN AGAIN HOW QUOTES FROM A 2000 YEAR OLD TEXT EXPLAIN OUR BEING HERE?

      Goodargument you told me more then once and so did Matthew that you don’t want me to quote or refer to the Scriptures, but since you have asked and loudly I will respond… . 

      The Scriptures in Genesis tell us fully how we came to be here 6,000 years ago as well as the whole Universe with many other references in regard to this throughout the Old Testament some of which was written the third or second centuries BC some later and by mostly different writers who did not know what had been previously written and yet there was no contradictions. These Truths are also confirmed in the New Testament written almost 2,000 years ago ...

      As to your other statement ....You claim that you evolved even though there is no evidence of this not even written evidence as you pointed out before,  which is unlike us Christians who have with the Bible which was inspired by God, but if you and Matthew are a reality and I don’t think I’m having a conversation with nobody, you must have come from somewhere, so if you have faith in Evolution without it being proven why don’t you believe in The God who Created you, even though you claim there is no proof for Him… doesn’t makes sense, why one and not the other ...perhaps you know deep down you don’t measure up the same as Matthew and us all, maybe you should accept His gift of Forgiveness and Salvation…  Broken record here.

      Well we are getting through the questions aren’t we,  but I will be gone most of the day so see you tonight or in the morning.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Matthew says:

      09:21am | 27/07/11

      Anna, your ability to read and grasp what others write is sorely lacking.
      I did not say there is no written evidence of evolution.
      That is patently a ridiculous statement.
      I did say there are 1000’s and 1000’s of studies demonstrating evolution.
      These cover from micro to macro evolution.  From evolution of the immune system to to evolution of entire genus of animals.

      So evolution has facts, evidence and observations pointing to it.
      God has none.  Just faith.

      You asked me to use the scientific method to prove I exist.  I did.
      You asked me to use it to show where I came from and where the universe comes from.  I can not.  I know this and you know this.

      So are you going to just keep repeating the question?  Or do you not understand what you are asking?

      You also asked where the substances come from to make up lasers and other materials.
      Given that we have made these substances in experiments, it has been proven that all elements come from lighter elements.
      The only question from this is where did all matter come from at the start.
      Not that is a question neither you nor I can answer.
      There is no discernible difference between the Romans saying Zeus did it and you saying god did it.  Neither has evidence.
      But observations do suggest a common centre with everything radiating out from it.  So a Big Bang type of event is possible.
      Where did the big bang come from?  Again, we do not know.  And again, saying god or Zeus did it is meaningless.  There is no evidence for god or Zeus in any of this.

      You can not explain where we come from either.  All you can say is “god did it”.  There is not a single piece of evidence for this.
      Go ahead.  Provide some evidence for a god.  You demand rigour of others and hid behind repeated blind alleys and non answers yourself.

      Still you have only answered one question directly, with anything like thought.  The Laser one.  You’ve answered a second only by implication.

      Back to the list of questions:
      [Regarding the bible]
      Regarding change, error and corruption, you say “but God will revel these to us and confirm His Truth in other Scriptures”.  Other scriptures?  What other? Other chapters in the bible?
      So one passage can be corrected in another.  Which is true?

      [accuracy of the bible]
      “...man will be without excuse”.  So the contradictions in the bible, the hidden messages and immoral permissives are not excuses to disregard the bible?

      [Totalitarian threats]
      Then there is the veiled threat that I will be punished.
        “you will still be accountable to Him and be judged and punished for your sins”.
      And then you contradict.
        “Jesus Christ who Loved you enough to die for you even knowing you would deny Him so you wouldn’t be punished.”
      So will I be punished or not?

      ...Are not these threats the final refuge of the weak?

      [Bible accuracy]
      You have attributed words to god but again, these words only appear in the bible.  And this was written by man, translated, obfuscated, corrupted and manipulated.
      Who could say if a single word was from a god?  And then, if from a god, which god?

      [On your amazement that I write to discuss.]
      It may amaze you that others think they can effect the world but there are three things to say to that;
      1) With your own writing, are you not trying to effect people and therefore he world?
      2) Is this a right which only you have?
      3) Are you really more capable than I of helping people?

      [[On god offering a prize]
      ... if I have god’s offer of something, where do I see this?  If I want to offer anyone anything, I normally would write or talk.  Something pretty clear and obvious.
      Where do I see god’s apparent offer to me?


      [Again on you not trying to convince.]
      You’re not trying to convince people?  Honestly?  Then what effect do you intend.  You are essentially saying you only present the material.  But to what end?  What is the hoped for response?

      [On the thread topic, and your thoughts]
      You say god says the best arguments for him are not purely scientific.
      Then to discuss the core topic of this thread for a moment, I take it you disagree with the article at the top?
      Is this correct?

      [On my misunderstanding you]
      If I am misunderstanding you, please explain yourself, (without bible quotes to speak for you).
      What meaning have I twisted?  Please clarify.

      [on the unknown]
      Do you think “god of the gaps” arguments are valid evidence for god?
      Status:  Answered by implication.  You use the argument a lot so, yes, you do believe this is a valid argument.

      [On Lasers]
      What have lasers got to do with mirrors?
      Status: Answered
      You seem to only know of lasers that require mirrors.  This is not a problem so your earlier discussion makes sense in light of this.

      Regards,
      Matt

    • Happy1 says:

      11:26pm | 02/08/11

      Thank god for Matt… concise, complete and correct!  I look forward to sharing a fireside seat in hell with you mate.

      I have a question; after a million years of being cooked and tortured won’t it become pretty much normal? After all its not like it is going to kill you is it.  The conversation will be… “Morning Matt, I see Roger is pulling your liver out today… he does a lovely job… real craftsman” “Yes Happy1 I see your legs have grown back and Anne looks lovely burnt black”... religion does not deserve any special treatment, it is not sacred and calling out believers is not impolite or unacceptable, it is ridiculous and as such deserves ridicule.  Make fun of religion, religion it is no fun without it. Happy1

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:20pm | 08/08/11

      Great Confirmation Johnny thanks for the Link.

      Johnny says ....Hi Matt, I disagree with your claim that there is no evidence for God. Here is my own summary of it:-

      http://www.truth-that-matters.com/evidenceforgod.htm

      Thanks again for the Link Johnny it was very informative.

      Christian Love Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      04:13am | 28/07/11

      Matthew ... your words were ...I did say there are 1000’s and 1000’s of studies demonstrating Evolution…Truth is ...there is no evidence to support these studies except that which agrees with Creation but if you think I’m in error then please cut and paste and show me your evidence, also I was talking to Goodargument in reference to him saying there is no written evidence of Evolution, meaning Historical such as the Scriptures but are you both the same person… or do you both need someone to keep backing you up…that’s ok if you do I have God and other Christians, it’s what unity in Him is all about.
      . You said Matthew ..... You seem to only know of lasers that require mirrors… Truth is…. all lasers such as you described require mirrors because the resonator of a laser contains mirrors, which must meet a number of criteria, what you are perhaps thinking of is a Semiconductor Diodes which is mainly used for radios, but this was not what you were originally talking about. Still I can’t be sure about the Lasers used in Star Wars etc from what I have been told they haven’t been inverted yet but this is only hearsay, perhaps you could check this out..but what I really want to know which you haven’t answered is where did the original components for making a Laser come from originally.

      Since you said we are having a debate lets affirm the correct guidelines for debating, one being that if either person introduces a subject both have the right to respond in their own way presenting their reasons for holding that position, that is a basic rule of debating. But both you and Goodargument seem to think you can rubbish the Bible and God your Creator and then tell me I’m not to refer to them but then still want your questions answered… well it doesn’t work that way and if you continue to disregard my right to respond in what ever way I feel is appropriate without abusing me,  I will not continue debating with either or both of you at all. 

      On the subject of god of the gapes, I do not accept this as True or valid at all, it is not what God is as the Scriptures below tell us so regardless of who propagates it is in error and only based on man’s worldly understanding. In Him all things hold together not just some times but all the time.

      Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

      Kind regards Anne, not Anna although they and Annie all derive from the same Hebrew name Hannah which means grace, but Anna is still not my Birth name.

    • Matthew says:

      11:16am | 28/07/11

      Hi Anne.  I do apologise for using the name “Anna”.  It was an complete mistake.

      Regarding evolution, you say there is no evidence to support these studies which agrees with creation.
      Evolution itself is against creation.
      Therefore, evidence for evolution will be against creation.
      In your interpretation, evidence that is against creation must be wrong.
      Therefore there is no answer, ever, that can satisfy you.
      Is there a logical error there?

      Wow.  You do not know of semiconductor lasers?  They are amongst the most effective lasers ever.  Due to their small size you can pack them in a small space and ramp up the power with the number of separate lasers on the one chip / board.
      No mirrors are required to make the laser.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_diode
      Also a ruby laser does only need a mirror to keep increasing the power of the laser.  The coherent light comes out without mirrors required as well.  But nowhere near as efficiently.

      And I certainly do not mean LEDs which do not put out coherent light unless specifically designed to.  Laser pointers are a good example of semiconductor lasers but are so much weaker than industrial lasers.
      It must be a shock to you that you don’t know it all even though you’ve been around a while.

      Regarding the components of the laser, and where they come from, which components do you mean? I just want to clarify what you mean by the question.
      Let’s stick with a simple ruby laser.


      Regarding debate, I did not say debate.  I said conversation.
      Which is what you described this as.
      Ever since you described it as a conversation, I have done the same to keep us on the same page.

      If you do not subscribe to the “god of the gaps” argument, what evidence exists for god, independent of people expressing an opinion?

      And Hannah is my favourite female name.  I love biblical names (some of them).

      Regards,
      MattD

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:47am | 29/07/11

      Matthew says…evolution itself is against creation. Therefore, evidence for evolution will be against creation.

      Once again Matthew you have not shared any Evolution evidence that confirms the Creator and His Creation is not True.

      All Lasers that you originally referred to in seeking to confirm your understanding that nothing comes from nothing have mirrors, but even if they didn’t they are not made out of nothing and you still haven’t shared where the material to make them originally came from…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser#Design
      http://www.rp-photonics.com/laser_mirrors.html

      Matthew I have provided you evidence that confirms both God and His Creation including the Scriptures, but it seems the same as you claim about me although you have not provided any evidence of how we came from nothing….. “There is no answer, ever, that can satisfy you.”

      Which means I’m going to move on to another Topic ....as far as I’m concerned in reference to me that is… this debate or conversation has ended because as I shared at the start with you and Goodargument because you are both nbelievers, worldly or natural men you cannot understand ...

      But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is Spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.1 Corinthians 2:14-16

      But if you really want understanding Matthew and wisdom, then you need to humble yourself and do what God asks you to do…

      Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD… Jeremiah 29:12-14

      Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:  And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Joel 2:12-13

      Take Care - Kind regards Anne

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:16am | 29/07/11

      Sorry about the Typo error Matthew ...I have now corrected it below…

      I shared at the start with you and Goodargument because you are both unbelievers in God The Creator meaning you are worldly or natural men and don’t have The Holy Spirit which means you can’t understand ...

      But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1 Corinthians 2:14-16

      Kind regards Anne

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    • CMG says:

      02:17pm | 28/08/11

      Hey Faulgerlema grow up Punch isen’t for kids put your greaffiti someplace else-  your bedroom wall for instance.

      Take a Hike

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:50pm | 28/08/11

      Faulgerlema or what ever your name really is, it seems the you make a point of posting on Topics gibberish, this shows disrespect for Punch, you must be very young and immature or perhaps and feel left out of things but not being able to add to the Topic you cut and paste rubbish and trivia regardless of the content, does this make you feel clever if so are you really that insecure, I don’t always agree with what others share on Punch but at least they do add to the conversation, but you distract from it,  perhaps you would be better getting a hobby and investing your time in something worthwhile instead of playing childish games.

      Kind regards Anne.

 

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Lucy Kippist

Complimentary packing, free childcare & convenience aplenty. Thats what i want from the supermarket. How about you? http://t.co/FV4tgjji

Daniel Piotrowski

#Thomson will never get brothel tapes, CCTV-in-brothels experts tell the ABC. http://t.co/7YFORBBJ

Daniel Piotrowski

@ToryShepherd there's always time for Din Tai Fung.

ToryShepherd

@drpiotrowski will be there just in time for Din Tai Fung

Recent posts

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Deep down we’re all unionists, even the haters

Deep down we’re all unionists, even the haters

Bill Kelty made a memorable speech last week. Addressing the ACTU Congress Dinner in Sydney, the legendary…

Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia…

Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia…

Speaking of yourself in the third person is usually a sign that you’re suffering from delusions…

South Australia. It’s the middle bottom bit.

South Australia. It’s the middle bottom bit.

If South Australia had just arrived in the world, red and wrinkled and mewling, what would we call it?…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

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