Splitsville: could a new party result from Abbott’s purge?

John A Neve says:

05:02am | 02/12/09

I have stated it before, but I’ll repeat myself, a viable third party would be good for Australia. For too long the seesaw between Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum has been destroying our country.

Is there any real difference between Labor and Liberal?

As for the Nationals, they are just an appendage on the Liberal party’s bottom end.

Margaret says:

06:08am | 02/12/09

There are two parties within the Liberal party ...the liberals and the conservatives.  I am a long term Labor voter, but I think there is a case for saying there are at least two parties within Labor ranks these days as well.  I am now a labor voter by principle who thinks of herself as more of a Green voter these days.  I would be happy to see a third party which included people like Malcolm Turnbull and other individuals who espouse humanitarian and green values as I no longer feel that Kevin Rudd’s version of Labor represents me.  A third party with intelligence and the courage to stand by their convictions would get my vote - I am sick of spin and populist politics on both sides of the fence

iansand says:

06:11am | 02/12/09

The electoral logic of electing Abbott and taking the Liberals to the right is to get enough votes to regain power.  I wonder for whom all these right wing people have been voting heretofore.  Is this all a plot to emasculate the Nationals?  Because it won’t be effective against Labor.

acotrel says:

06:14am | 02/12/09

The new Opposition Leader is a Rhodes Scholar with a degree in economics.

But he seems to be spectacularly ill-informed about the forces pushing up interest rates.

However he’s probably not ill-informed! He’s continuing with his perverse mindset that everything which ever happens can be twisted to look as though the Rudd government is to blame for something. In doing these mental gymnastics he’s become even more delusional!

watty says:

06:17am | 02/12/09

Surely not the same tubby moustached Bruce Hawker who was one of Bob Carr’s senior advisers and regular Labor sycophant on SKY’s AGENDA?

Photo like strategy to divide the Coalition is well past it’s use by date and displays the vanity associated with the Rudd team.

Suck it up Bruce.Labor’s two favourites for Leader of the Opposition,Turnbull (flirted with Labor for years)and Hockey are both gone and your “whiteman dreaming” wish for a third Party just won’t fly.

paul says:

06:17am | 02/12/09

I agree John, I think we’ve seen enough of Abbot and what he stands for. More John Howard and Howard lite policy. How about some political choices and fresh faces? And why do Libs love getting in there budgie smugglers for photos? Strange.

Phil says:

06:22am | 02/12/09

As Bob Carr’s former chief of staff, and a labor hack/deceit specialist and liar, your article has as much credibility as Kevin Rudd on an ETS tax. Could it be that you stand to proclaim more lies in any pending election, and you’re not ready? My guess is that you would stand to make a lot of money from an election.

Why do Labor state clearly, either your with us on Climate Change and its Labor’s way or the highway, or you would rather chop down all the world’s forests and destroy the planet, as you are an obviously climate change denier.

You speak as if the Labor Party is one of free speech. Has anyone spoken out against any of Mr Rudd’s policies? Are they allowed? Hell NO. Just like some extremists in all parties Labor would have its skeptics and objections on most policy areas as well.

I do not believe that Mr Abbott nor most of his supporters deny climate change, it’s just that some feel it’s not caused by man, but by mother nature herself, and introducing such radical reform such as an ETS which along with most of Mr Rudd’s stimulus policies gives very little band for your buck may not be the answer. Mr Rudd wants to grandstand on the world stage at Copenhagen, that’s the only reason for the rush. The scheme was not supposed to come online till 2011, therefore waiting a few months and having this properly debated and the public scrutinize it is a good thing.

Have you or any other fellow commies considered alternatives that are better for the environment and provide a better cost benefit ratio than a flawed ETS. That’s right we will be hypocritical and export uranium, but would never dare to use it ourselves. We will export brown coal to India, even though this alone will contribute more additional Carbon to the environment than the proposed ETS hopes to save. If Labor is so green, why reduce then stop Solar Rebates, only to later reintroduce them at a much lower level? That’s right because people were using them and they appeared to work.

Can someone please explain how paying big polluters to pollute, and compensating the poor, who often drive vehicles which produce higher emissions is actually going to cool the planet or stop the climate changing ? You can’t be half pregnant.

Mr Rudd will now need to have his policy completely examined and scrutinized, something he nor Miss Wong and labor wanted. They simply tried to hoodwink the voters and most Aussies do not appreciate this tactic.

Clean Coal. PURLEASE. His Labor mates wrecking the states are putting in Desalination plants that will use up any renewable energy that is produced. Recycling is cheaper and easier, but hey if they adopted these types of policies, they can’t have all their big business mates make plenty from them in return for advertising dollars come election time.

Mr Rudd has already signed up at least one generation to his governments’ debt, why does everyone want this to be a lifetime commitment for all Australians.

Does Mr Rudd think that if he introduces such a life changing tax that this is going to stop the boats arriving? A better policy in that area would do the trick rather than make it that Australians will be getting in their tinnies and sailing off to Sri Lanka and Afghanistan.

So Mr Abbott is a conviction politician. Is this a bad thing? As a wise man once said –

IF YOU DON’T STAND FOR SOMETHING, YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING

Steve Atkins says:

06:32am | 02/12/09

Why would Turnbull bother creating a new party when one is already set up for him , (Labor) -  basically he was a Labor trojan horse.
His policies which may have got him over the line in his home constituency of Wentworth were out of sync with the Liberal heartland on the North shore.
There was always an underlying stench of looking after his mates in big business banking behind his undying support for the CPRS SCAM .

concerned & conservative says:

06:37am | 02/12/09

I find it disturbing that climate change sceptics are painted as crack pots and extremists in the media (generally).
I respect people such as Mr Abbott for his scepticism, and Mr Abetz for his agnosticism. From my perspective, it seems that the mainstream is fervently committed to climate change, when I have not yet seen a clear and logical scientific argument presented to the sceptics.
Surely if it is so clear, and sceptics are so crazy, they can be refuted soundly. This has not occurred to my knowledge.
The ETS seems to be an ill-informed bill built on a hazy understanding which will give more power to the politicians - not a good thing IMHO.
The climate change agenda seems to be driven by a population that has been hoodwinked by what has been spoonfed to them.
It’s good to see an actual opposition.

Diamantina Dick says:

06:42am | 02/12/09

@margaret, I sympathise with progressive voters such as yourself who are forced to vote for Labor who seems to cynically exploit special interest groups they proport to represent.

@acotrel, of course he is not ill informed, in the same way Labor knew every move of a bad boss was not the fault of Workchoices. Labor are going to wear interest rate rises the same way Liberal did, hopefully to square things up they will also get one in the midst of the campaign.

Mendacity has been taken to a whole new level by this Government, it is now regardeded as “unexceptional” and it’s a bit late to be crying foul now!

Duncs says:

07:01am | 02/12/09

I’m not sure Bruce Hawker is really the most authoritive, credible, or appopriate person to be providing commentary on the future of the Liberal Party. He has afterall dedicated his life to trying to get rid of it!

Simon says:

07:13am | 02/12/09

A Labor lobbyist set to earn massive $$$ in this pathetic ETS on success fees and consultancies sent in as attack dog. Surely they can do better than that?

Deliah says:

07:32am | 02/12/09

Climate change issues aside, it is Abbott’s belief in the essence of workchoices and his pre-historic beliefs regarding womens and social issues which will ensure Bob Hawke is correct. The mad monk will be a very “temporary” leader. At least the election will be entertaining with Abbott’s fellow extremists Wilson Tuckey and the increasingly shrill Barnaby ranting fear and nonsense. Then we have the most bizzare and deluded of them all, the fringe dweller Steve Fielding.

Patrick says:

07:47am | 02/12/09

Mr Abbott’s views on smoking

““I was a child that was regularly imprisoned in a car with heavy smokers, my parents both smoked heavily when I was a kid. Now has it done me any harm? You be the judge… maybe I would have been six foot six and I would have had much greater intelligence, who knows?

Source: http://abc.gov.au/news/stories/2009/07/02/2614334.htm

Do I trust this man to hold a rational position on climate change and even a rational position on the science of climate change? No, no I don’t.

how warm do you want it? says:

07:50am | 02/12/09

concerned and conservative: the IPCC report is as clear as anything you will get on climate change. Have you read it? It summarises a mulititude of data and independent, refereed, published scientific reports providing overwhelming evidence of rapid climate change, also increasing evidence of human causation. When you say ’ I have not yet seen a clear and logical scientific argument presented to the sceptics.’ isn’t that code for ‘I choose not to believe what the overwhelming weight of science is clearly saying and I prefer instead a minority of dissenting reports based on selective or misinterpreted data’? Because that is what is giving scepticism a bad name.

RT says:

07:54am | 02/12/09

My favourite Abbott quote (from a long list) ‘I’m the ideological love child of John Howard and Bronwyn Bishop’.  Anyone who’d want to raise the image of such a repugnant coupling (even if only in theory) to make a point, certainly could be described as ‘courageous’ in the ‘Yes Minister’ sense.

RT says:

07:56am | 02/12/09

steve 8:24am. Another day, another climate change denialist waving these hacked emails as proof that there is no climate change. It’s not working, steve, and it won’t. Work that out and find another strategy.

John T says:

07:58am | 02/12/09

The conservative side of politics is just the same as the socialist side.  All factions have to put their own goals on the backburner for the good of the party and for a chance to be elected.  Look at Rudd for instance, the richest PM we have ever had, has made his money via the very neo liberalism he denounces, has no factional support within the ALP.  How is he holding it together, he got them elected and is rating in the 60’s.  I am sure that there are some in the socialist movement who are livid with Rudd on many issues, lets the take illegal refugees who quickly became Asylum Seekers and his Indonesian solution.  I bet the Libs are saying, great idea, why didn’t we think of it.  Yet, within his circle there would be distain, but guarded public denouncing of Rudd at this stage, due to his power and electoral pull.  But that will wane, and then like all socialist leaders, he will fall in a bloody purge, and then we will see the real ALP resume their normal program under The Ranga, what a voice!! And Albo, who can’t decide whether to wear glasses or contacts.  He is a joke either way.  As for Tony, give him a go!!  He is a better option than that imposter Turnball, who needs to either become a party man, or get out.  I say, no loss to the Liberals!

You losers says:

08:15am | 02/12/09

acotrel says:07:14am | 02/12/09 “The new Opposition Leader is a Rhodes Scholar with a degree in economics. But he seems to be spectacularly ill-informed about the forces pushing up interest rates.” - the guy has been the Opposition Leader for one day, and already rising interest rates are his fault!? And if you STILL believe in climate change, google ‘climategate’ and TRY to comes to terms with the fact that is a hoax perpetrated by scientist keen to keep their lucrative funding going - see Y2K, peak oil etc etc etc….

Bazman says:

08:17am | 02/12/09

Can a man who believes in such superstitious nonsense as Roman Catholicism be trusted to hold a rational belief on anything? I’m tolerantly indifferent to another persons superstitions, but when they allow these irrational beliefs to impact in areas of government policy a line must be drawn. Critical thinking and perspicacity are required, not a retreat to blind acceptance of archaic and demeaning notions. As for a new party, a new “night of the long knives” is more likely!

Patrick says:

08:20am | 02/12/09

Abbott’s views on abortion

“... we have a bizarre double standard, a bizarre double standard in this country where someone who kills a pregnant woman’s baby is guilty of murder but a woman who aborts an unborn baby is simply exercising choice.”

This man and his party are still struggling to come to terms with the 20th century, let alone the 21st.

Randal says:

08:20am | 02/12/09

You can be gauranteed of one thing Bruce, Abbott, love him or hate him, will provide a fight and a debate.

The era of the Liberal party actng as a shadow of the government is over. Perhaps this is what you fear most, and why you hold the pipedream of the Libs splitting into two parties, which of course will not happen as old Malcolm wanted to be PM, not the man in the middle, and he is certainly no Don Chipp.

Suddenly the Rudd government will be held to account on the ETS and have to explain to the nation why it is in our national interests to implement a new tax that our citizens will pay with every action they take in normal life, cooking, turning on a light, buying food for their families, catching a train, driving to work etc… etc… literally a tax on everything. Whilst in return the government can offer no reductions in emissions, no less pollutants into the atmoshere and have ZERO effect on the environment, just a garuantee that we will pay more for everything. An ETS in its current form is a policy that is declaring war upon the Australian economy and in turn the Australian people. 

Selling a tax that achieves nothing to the Australian people is not an easy task and you will be certainly earning your consultancy fee come election time and I hope that you have more than Rudd’s a good bloke, all Liberals who don’t agree with us a bad and we wish Malcolm was still there, as I doubt this will be enough once the Australian people are aware of how much the ETS will cost them.

Remeber Bruce, the hip pocket is the most sensitive nerve that belongs to the Australian voter, and they generally do not like being mugged by the government as they watch the 6.00pm news.

BMJ says:

08:20am | 02/12/09

The world has seen a resurgence of hard right views. It’s Australia’s turn.

Anthony says:

08:26am | 02/12/09

Programme on BBC/lnowledge last night: The Himalyan glaciers are melting quicker than than expected. These glaciers supply the rivers of India and great chunks of China with water. Now I am no scientist but I have seen enough polution in major cities around the world to think all the emissions we are pumping into the aire cannot possible be doing our earth any good and MAY be the cause for the glaciers melting.
I hope Abbott and mates have their homes ready to take in the refugees. And they have the hide to play politics with a few boat loads of Tamils.
These far right idealogues have no sense, no morals, no honour and belong back in the 1970s. As Patrick said-” how can you trust a man who thinks smoking is no harmful”?

Craig Mc says:

08:33am | 02/12/09

What purge? Name one front-bencher who’s been demoted by Abbott.

steve says:

08:35am | 02/12/09

G’day RT Sorry mate;
I am a climate change true believer. This Climate Changes for a great number of driving forces, it always has and always will. That is the nature of a dynamic planet. This planet has had High seas, no seas, Ice to the equator and melted poles. The Romans grew vineyards where London is today, and the Danes grew grain in Greenland. There were other times when the Thames and the Danube had frozen solid.  The Climate just changes, largely oblivious to the level of co2.
Second
Dr George Monbiot, a devout climate alarmist recently wrote the following:
“I have seldom felt so alone. Confronted with this crisis, most of the environmentalists I know have gone into denial. The emails hacked from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia, they say, are a storm in a tea cup, no big deal, exaggerated out of all recognition. It is true that climate change deniers have made wild claims which the material can’t possibly support (the end of global warming, the death of climate science). But it is also true that the emails are very damaging.”
Third
I know you hope that the bishops of your church of climatology keep their jobs. Phil Jones has been stood down and Mike Mann is also under investigation by the ethics committee of Penn state uni
Yes you are absolutely right you can believe what ever you want
Another “climate change denialist waving these hacked emails as proof that there is no climate change.”  Sorry mate totally wrong

Oh by the way Malcolm Turnbull was just rolled because people are starting to doubt your “settled science” Do you recon that Rudd will call a double dissolution and want to fight an election on this issue now?

jed says:

08:45am | 02/12/09

surely anyone who wants freedom, and not this nothing zone of “we’re for families, battlers, somebody must intervene!” would be voting for the LDP. That’s where any smart liberal would go, unless you want the outright zealots like abbot and andrews trying to run your life.

Jimbo says:

08:50am | 02/12/09

Whats this about having a third political Party?  For the last two years we have only had ONE.  At last now we have an Opposition, as everyone has been saying since Rudd became PM, there is no Opposition in this country no alternative.  Well now there is, and I’m sure Rudd and his crew will be worried. If they were’nt why the prepared, immediate ad response in case Abbott got up.

giggles says:

08:54am | 02/12/09

lol! here comes tony! look out kevvie!!!  OMG ..  what happened to malcom, the saviour.. it was all malcoms the man a few months ago. he was the man who was gonna take it to the government.. only to be shown up for what he really is by smeagol grench.  this wont last long either, ( maybe he might survive over the holidays while parliaments not on ) but gimme a break.. weve heard this all before.. about the last leader, and the one before that, and the really really good one that was just a little too scared to put his hand up.. but would have been the best ever ... yawn..

if this is the best the liberals can come up with, they better get comfy on that side of the house.

i thought it was really funny when that idiot ..ohhhh whats his name challenged…. the haneef bungler, you know who i mean.. his name escapes me at the moment, and i dont want to spend time worrying about it.. i guess the headline then wouldve been.. here comes ( whatshisname )

anyway, for now its, here comes tony! - lol… NEXT!  maybe that petulant little whiney boy chrissy pyne! bwahahahaha

Ian F says:

09:05am | 02/12/09

I would have thought that given his considerable influence within the NSW Labor Government Bruce Hawker might be able to give us some insight into how his favourite government is progressing at the moment.

steve says:

09:10am | 02/12/09

G’day Anthony
Perhaps you can clarify
Do you argue that Dinky little Australia placing a tax on power, fuel and jobs will stop the melting of the Himalayan glaciers?  These glaciers have fed the Ganges River every summer for tens of thousands of years. They melt every summer and they come back every winter.

Do you want Australia to follow Spain down the road of Large scale re-newable power projects and “Green Jobs”? Is this going to alter the temperature of the planet? Spain by the way now has an unemployment rate of near 20%.

A couple of points to consider
The BBC is about as impartial as the Greens media unit.
If you have been to China, as I have, you would know what pollution looks like, brown haze so thick you can not see a city block.
China’s building program is constructing a city equivalent to the size of Melbourne every 6 months.
They are brining on line a new COAL fired power station every 10 days

I do not think ever the most rabid Eco alarmist believes that Australia cutting its economic throat would alter the temperature of the planet, but they still want us to do it.

Tony says:

09:35am | 02/12/09

There would appear to be a lot of us who are neither climate change evangelists nor climate change sceptics but who believe it is happening and yes we need to do something but NO that doesn’t mean yet another tax. 

Particularly one that will not reduce emissions one iota. 

I can’t wait for Abbott to start demanding the answers that we want (well those of us who actually pay tax here).  I think when when the truth about the ETX Tax and the additional debt the Copenhagen Treaty will put this country in is exposed, the voters will be happy there is a clear alternative.

Terry Wright says:

09:35am | 02/12/09

Bazman (09:17am | 02/12/09) said:
“Can a man who believes in such superstitious nonsense as Roman Catholicism be trusted to hold a rational belief on anything? I’m tolerantly indifferent to another persons superstitions, but when they allow these irrational beliefs to impact in areas of government policy a line must be drawn. Critical thinking and perspicacity are required, not a retreat to blind acceptance of archaic and demeaning notions.”

What you point out is so true yet ignored so readily. How can we as a society, who has started to master the very fabric of matter with nano technology and has mapped the human DNA genome, still let 2000 year old myths determine our laws and ultimately our fate?

My main concern with Tony Abbott is that he will stifle social reform. We have enough conservative representation via Kevin Rudd and don’t need even more with Abbott. I can see science and evidence based policies taking a back seat to “family values” and 1950s style morals. Climate change, HIV/AIDS, drug laws, law and order etc. need to be tackled pragmatically based on facts and research not on some politicians ideology or personal feelings.

I can already hear the celebrations from anti-abortion groups, the religious right and Drug Free Australia. John Howard groupies everywhere are regrouping and dusting off their banners that read, “Illegal Asylum Seekers OUT”. Gay couples are cancelling their marriage plans. Organised crime is preparing for another decade of massive profits under drug prohibition while addicts and recreational users prepare to dodge jail. Alcohol lobby groups are smiling for the first time in a year, Bronwyn Bishop is dusting off her wig collection and crooked evangelists like the Exclusive Brethren can start recruiting again.

...and that’s just from Abbott becoming the opposition leader!

Sam says:

09:45am | 02/12/09

RE Anthony 09:26am | 02/12/09 - there is a difference between climate change and pollution.  Sure, if the U.S., China and India stopped pumping their pollution into the atmosphere everyone would be a lot happier. But that’s not going to happen any time soon and Australia adopting an ETS will not make one iota of difference to the atmosphere - only to our standard of living. Climate change per se has been happening since the world began.  You global warming believers are the ones with your heads in the sand – a few hot days and you think it’s PROOF of global warming.  Google ‘climategate’ you dumb ‘progressives’ – none so blind as those who will not see.

Anthony says:

09:55am | 02/12/09

@ Steve;
As I said I am no scientist but I have seen enouph pollution around the globe to convince me that CO2 emmissions are not doing our planet any good. If they are not doing the planet any good, should we not be reducing them? which is what Copenhagen is all about.
You mention Spain- Spain’s high unemployment was not caused by its green power projects, it was caused by the bursting of the building bubble when debt ridden Poms stopped buying over priced condiminiums.
In fact were it not not for its green power technology its uneployment rate would be higher; same can be said for Germany.
I think you are manipulating the facts to fit your arguement.- seems to be an ultgra conservative tactic.
Yes, i have been to China- at least we agree on what pollution looks like; is that what you want more of?
China is now trying to come to a balance between its need to keep its economy growing so that it can feed its people and a need to do something about the environment. China is now advancing more rapidly with renewabel energy rechnolgy than most other countries except the EU.
It builds more solar panels than anyone else.
Rather than destroy jobs an ETS in Australia would create more jobs.We have some of the world’s best brains in renewable energy yet most of their work ends up going overseas.
Like it or not the world will have an ETS and carbon trading. Australia had the chance to be a leader and reap the economic rewards of a new industry, as usual it will be a follower and we shall miss out because the far right cannot see far enough ahead..

Charles says:

09:56am | 02/12/09

Hawker - there will be no split. This is just stirring the possum speculation. The only analogy that is apt between the 50s and Turnbull is that Turnbull is as mad as Doc Evatt was.

JD says:

10:00am | 02/12/09

You ‘Religious Sceptics’ are a real piece of work!!

You think that with a few scientific breakthroughs that you know it all? Dismissing the beliefs of many (not just Christians, but Judaism and Islam) through your self-centred, self-glorifying ego?

This country needs a shake up. All you self centred, egotistical people need to get a reality check.

Say what you will of Abbott, at least he has a moral compass as does Kevin Rudd.

Seriously, I’d rather renounce my citizenship of birth than live in a country where there is no moral compass. You people have NO accountability. There’s no limits to the denegration you will go to. As the decades pass, your morality creeps further and further into filth. What ten years ago you found immoral, is now moral. And I promise you, what today you find immoral you will find moral in ten years time.

I mean seriously, what’ next? Legalizing paedophilia? Allowing Humans and Animals to marry and have sexual intercourse? You ‘Relegious Sceptics’ have absolutely no moral fibre, and I dread having to live in a country controlled by people like you.

I won’t stand for it, and I believe most self respecting Australians would feel the same way.

You’re an absolute disgrace, and I truly hope you will all wake up to yourselves one day before it’s too late. This life will flash you by, and then reality will kick in.

Patrick says:

10:07am | 02/12/09

“Sure, if the U.S., China and India stopped pumping their pollution into the atmosphere everyone would be a lot happier.”

China recently commited to reducing emmissions by 40% of 2000 levels by 2020.

The US has legislation in the Senate to reduce emissions by 17% of 2005 levels by 2020.

Sorry, I don’t do my research on climate change on Google and Right wing newspaper collumnist blogs, I do it by lookign at peer reviewed science.

kim says:

10:17am | 02/12/09

Why attack Abbots religion. Do you not see Rudd hold a press conference outside his church every Sunday (when he is around that is). Interesting read in Rudd on Compass when he in Opposition, he is very much a devout Christian with strong beliefs. Google Kevin Rudd and Catholic. Many a interesting article.

Patrick says:

10:19am | 02/12/09

I find you a bit immoral JD, hiding your hate, prejudice and bigotry behind a veneer of morality and sensibility, putting up straw man arguments about peadophillia to support yourself. I can only hope to God I don’t find people like you moral in ten years time.

JJ says:

10:32am | 02/12/09

Bruce,
The real question is: Do mainstream Australia want moderate/centrist policies or right/left ones?
After the orchestrated coup by the conservative liberals, it would not surprise me that the moderates in the Liberal party are not too upset its not their leader in the next election.
If mainstream Australia rejects the Coalition again (and by an even greater margin), then it is in Australia’s interests to drag the extreme right into the centre, kicking and screaming if we must. Just as Rudd has rejected the extreme left.
Over to the people of Australia!!

DG says:

10:32am | 02/12/09

Terry Wright (10:35am | 02/12/09)

“Climate change, HIV/AIDS, drug laws, law and order etc. need to be tackled pragmatically based on facts and research not on some politicians ideology or personal feelings.”

So you are calling for the end of democracy?

After all the electorate presumably vote based on their personal feelings and personal ideology - whether it be pro immigration, pro decriminisation of drugs, anti “user pays universities” or anti police-state.

The mistake that we regularly make is that science determines “right from wrong” or has some political focus. It doesn’t science is facts and the art of obtaining facts nothing more.

Science doe not say that “Global warming is bad and must be stopped - science says global warming will have the following effects, it is up to individuals (based on personal ideology) to decided if they would willingly suffer those effects. 

Now there are some issues that religion is considered and does ‘get in the way’. For example a person who believes that abortion is wrong because “God says” is making a decision based on evidence but evidence based on a groundless assumption. If they say “I don’t not believe in abortion because I believe in the right to life” it is still based on ideology but not on the false belief in the existence of god. Just as “I believe that a woman should be able to procure an abortion” is based on ideology. The science remains the same for the latter two arguments - it can be done, science does not tell us whether it should be done.

Policies should ALWAYS be based on achieving the mandate that the electorate gives to the Government of the day. Science is the means by which the electorate can determine what is real (i.e the issues that need to be addressed and the consequences of decisions) and what is possible (what can be done to bring about, or avoid, certain consequences) - it is not a means for determining what is right and wrong.

That does not mean that a person who is guided by science is necessarily immoral - just that the facts that science provides does not tell us what is right and wrong. it is up to the ideology of the individual to decide right from wrong. i.e it tells us that it is possible to kill a person, it doesn’t tell us if we should kill that person. That decision is one of personal ideology.

concerned and conservative says:

10:37am | 02/12/09

In response to how warm do you want it: Thank you for your response. No I have not read it, but I will. And when I said that I haven’t seen a clear and logical argument for climate change it wasn’t code for anything. I meant that I haven’t seen one. I’ll read the IPCC report and make my unprofessional assessment. Any other references you have will be appreciated.
Although I must confess though that I do not have a great deal of confidence in the IPCC given the recent ‘climate gate’ affair - so masterfully ignored by most.
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2009/12/01/climategate-and-mediagate/
To clarify my position, i’m not necesssarily a climate change sceptic. One needs to have sufficient knowledge to claim that status.
My real concern is that the general voter is ill-informed and being fooled by mass-rhetoric into supporting a bill that will give more uneccesary power to the politicians.
When I referred to the need for a refutation of CC sceptics, what I really meant was that the clear argument needs to be effectively communicated en masse. Surely if it’s so irrefutable, this shouldn’t be a problem. If you know of such a work, I trust that you can refer me to it.

Bearbrass says:

10:47am | 02/12/09

Well said Zeta -

I’m coming to believe the same thing.  Australia is a conservative country, as far as the mainstream.  Actually lefties often like to tell us off for it - we are backward, ought to be more like the Europeans (esp Scandanavians) etc.  And yet they at the same time regard conservative politicians and policies as illegitimate.  The ‘small ‘ell” liberal MPs are a niche group who get a disproportionate amount of media coverage.  The Social Democrat Rudd had to masquarade as a conservative to get elected.

Compare the amount of national sovereignty that we still retain compared with the UK - which has given it up to Europe in spades in the last 30 years.  Conservatism in Britain is sadly now a minority pursuit among a few people of education (thanks to Oxbridge) and good taste, as well as an inarticulate fringe among the lower orders who, having been sold out by the Tory Party, have taken solace in the BNP

Mark M Aldridge Independent says:

10:51am | 02/12/09

Congratulations to Tony Abbott, Australians should decide our future and in an informed manner!

Global Warming or the Weather is changing, here lays the argument, some blame Co2 others blame mother nature, I lean towards mother nature as the main contributor, but these are not the important issues, its about our future.

So lets put ETS in context, you have a windfall of say $500,000 and wish to invest it in your children’s future, the salesman of the investment scheme “trust me its your children’s future, hurray up and give me the money” he wants you invest with him your children’s future, your reply “Let my wife and I have a look over this” he says how can you wait, you must act now.

You hold him off for a bit and investigate his company, hhmmmm there are some warning signs and reports that his company is not 100% safe, there are leaked emails showing there is a cover up, he could be leading you down the path of rack and ruin.

Do you sign up or reconsider?

The ETS is based on taxing a natural occurring gas in the hopes of changing the weather, the arguments from both supporters and deniers are many and of a complex nature. The effects of such a Tax will be huge, and may affect the viability of our long-term future and even our retirement funds and investments; the truth is we are being kept in the dark.

We are being given the options of blindly follow me, or make ones decision an informed one, in fact the informed one seems to be of the agenda, yet Tony Abbott wishes to allow an informed debate, and the Labor Party line is “we must act now” as if a few months of open and honest debate would cause irreversible damage? But the same could be said for blindly following.

The People must have the final say, and it must be made by an informed electorate, so I say Listen to Tony, become informed and consider the ramifications, either option is said to affect our long term future and there for must not be rushed.

I for one have always considered that those that do not want scrutiny of their Ideals may just have something to hide.

Mark M Aldridge
Independent Candidate for the Legislative Council

Alex says:

11:00am | 02/12/09

Patrick @ 09:20am takes issue with this quote, but fails to say why:

“... we have a bizarre double standard, a bizarre double standard in this country where someone who kills a pregnant woman’s baby is guilty of murder but a woman who aborts an unborn baby is simply exercising choice.”

Patrick, perhaps you’d like to enlighten us as to how you resolve the apparent contradiction?

Alex - neither religious nor anti-abortion.

Fred says:

11:03am | 02/12/09

Abbot, well that stops me voting Liberal, and as for Labour they are only a poor imitation of the Liberal Party. Not much of a choice these days for the average voter. Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle even Dumber. 

We have no leader at the moment just a shadow travelling the world working on his resume for the UN.

lets have a true democracy and put on the voting slips “NONE OF THE ABOVE”. Bet that would get more votes

steve says:

11:04am | 02/12/09

G’day Anthony
I noticed you did not answer my questions
Let’s look at some facts
I was on the 7th floor of a 25 storey hotel in Shenzhen looked out the window and could not see the street below. Agree we need to do something about pollution. I do not care to convince you of anything but, no-one wants more pollution including me. Trouble for you is Co2 is not a pollutant it is a trace gas and necessary for plant growth. Submarines crews operate quite happily at Co2 levels of 1,000ppm you will get a headache at 10,000ppm and nausea at 15,000ppm, exhaled breath is about 4,000ppm. 

I also have dealings with Spain in the transport industry been to Barcelona and Madrid. The reason for the unemployment level in Spain is that power costs to industry doubled since the Govt subsidies for the “Green Jobs” dried up. Entire factories shut down. Your comments about the collapsing market of pommies doing up condo’s are nonsense. The unemployment level at the rest of the EU is half that of Spain. Spain now exports cheap wind mill turbines and Jobs.
Your “balance” in China has more to do with a cultured media perceptions in the west than reality. 15 years ago Beijing was a city with 6 million bicycles. It now has 6 lane wide freeways that are car parks.
There will be little benefit to the factory or manufacturing in an ETS, just higher operating costs and lower employment. Though the carbon traders like Al Gore will make a mint, licence to print money.
I can see far enough ahead to know this ETS is nothing but a scam to get money for governments, Federal and UN, GST to the States also goes up.
“Never get between a Politician and a bucket load of money”
The ETS has nothing to do with reducing the earth’s temperature it is all about money

John A Neve says:

11:18am | 02/12/09

Zeta @ 1124hrs.

That was beautifull, spot on, the best discription of us I’ve ever read. We as a nation are inward looking. Possibly the reason we only have a two party system, is because two is a much as we can handle?

To think we are a young country, but sadly with an old mindset.

Anthony says:

11:23am | 02/12/09

@Sam; As far as I am aware pollution is caused by CO2 emissions. The ETS is designed to cut emissions and assist with countering the effects of climate change. I understood that is what the debate is all about.
I believe carbon trading in the form an ETS or similar has been discussed for the past 15 years or more. Why do you think companie slike Shell have bene investing in forests?  What you people do not seem to understand is the carbon trading and renewable energy technology will be a huge new industry which will CREATE jobs. You know there were also skeptics to the industrial and the technological revolutions but the world moved on without them..
As for being a dumb progressive- all I will say to that is thank you. I am honoured to be considered being among the dumb progressives, Were it not for progerssives we would all be back in the dark ages where you obviously are.

Joe says:

11:25am | 02/12/09

Any division on “climate change” is nothing on the Labor split. Much opposition to Rudd’s ETS is based on common sense and pragmatism. Many are simply arguing against an insane new tax. The ongoing fight against communism is a TOTALLY different matter.

People WILL and HAVE died in a ditch against communism.

While many say that the ETS was a bit of a socialist front it is nothing on communism. Lets not get too carried away here.

D'oh says:

11:31am | 02/12/09

Splitsville hey?

[checks senate vote]

ETS voted down 41 – 33 (only 2 liberals cross the floor)

[face palm]

Hardly divide Bruce, as much as you would love them to be.  Could you imagine what would happen to a Labour senator if they dared cross the floor.

Bruce Hawker FAIL
Penny Wong EPIC FAIL

Merv says:

11:40am | 02/12/09

Great news! ETS voted down in the Senate. There will be no DD even though Rudd has a trigger because he won’t want to fight it on the ETS. He will wait and now we are going to be bombarded with his new tax reform bill.

Shane says:

11:46am | 02/12/09

Rudd has very little choice but to call an election as soon as possible. The public is waking up to the fact that man made global warming is one of the biggest hoaxes ever to be pulled on humanity and given the next election will be fought on the climate, the longer Rudd leaves it, the more likely an angry electorate will make him and the rest of his loonies pay.

Get stuffed says:

12:01pm | 02/12/09

How much $$$$ did you get from Labor this year?
Who cares what silky lies / crap you spin on a daily basis, crawl away with your taxpayers millions.
+ always remember…. you have made Australia a worse place

Caroline says:

12:02pm | 02/12/09

I agree Merve, Rudd won’t have a DD he knows Australians are now against his ETS and he knows there is now a possibility he will lose if he holds an election now.

Rohan says:

12:06pm | 02/12/09

Ah yes, the Lobby industry kingpins who are set to reap the rewards of ETS negotiations, consultancy fees and kickbacks. Maybe The Punch should do a series that investigates the relationships of the Labor Lobbying trade and how it is positioned to rort billions from an ETS framework. It would make for fascinating reading.

spock says:

12:10pm | 02/12/09

JD has just emphasised with his comments exactly why religious nutjobs should have nothing to do with running the country. To suggest that a belief in God, or allah or any other fairy tale is all that is stopping him from practising inter-species sex just shows how ridiculous they can be.  No church has a monopoly on morality and id suggest that its actually the opposite, considering george w bush invaded iraq, because “god told him to” - his words. you light deprived, brain addled moral midget.

John says:

12:10pm | 02/12/09

Congratulations Tony, Round one to Abbott! I’ll be having a beer for you this arvo.!

Mark says:

12:17pm | 02/12/09

The discussion here seems to have gotten a little off track. Let’s leave the climate change debate for one of the many other blogs on the issue.

I’m sure the notion of a split is raised every time a party is banished to opposition. The reality is that there is probably as much differentiation between the far left in the Labor Party and the moderates led by Rudd as there is between the “small l” liberals and the far right conservatives in the Liberal Party. The difference is the former are in power so are more concerned with maintaining their position than fighting each other for the moment.

That said there is undoubtedly a growing moderate faction on both sides of politics, to the extent that there is probably room for a new political party that are free to focus on representing the views of the majority of the population without being constantly held back by the ideological relics of the past within either Labor or Liberal.

It’s no coincidence that this group align to many of the philosophies common to both Turnbull and Rudd, including being pro climate change action (if not necessarily the current ETS) and Australia becoming a Republic.

I for one would like to see a party like this emerge. Currently I can’t see myself voting for either option come election time.

Marion Simpson says:

12:16pm | 02/12/09

I can’t in all honesty support Tony Abbott and I know if I vote Liberal in my electorate..its a vote for Abbott. I am like many Australians, I think anyway, I don’t understand what the ETS will mean for me. But I can’t see that we can gamble on this being a natural event, the stakes are to high. I want my kids and your kids to have as good a world as what we had and are having now.
If it means I have to cut back on using power, well, just like in water restrictions I will manage. If it means paying more, I will just have to give something up in order to pay for it. But I will be able to sleep at night knowing we are at least making an attempt. The older I am getting the more sentimental I feel about this beautiful country of ours and Aussie’s( all of you) and I need to feel peace withinn myself about this issue. So someone please settle this issue for us.

Picohloh says:

12:25pm | 02/12/09

Shane,  the Prime Minister now has a pretty big choice about when the next election will be held. Events will present him with a time which will assure him the maximum success. If he has any sense he will pick a day near a full moon; then the climate change deniers will be in their most deranged and scary state.

Lucie says:

12:33pm | 02/12/09

Marion Simpson - It’s people like you who have been sucked in by Rudd/Labors spin. We shouldn’t look at alternatives we shouldn’t debate we should just take Kevins word for it and impose an ETS/Tax on all Australians to make them feel good about doing something. You admitt you don’t even understand an ETS.

Peter A. Lord says:

12:34pm | 02/12/09

Love him or hate him, left or right, I can remember when everybody would tune into Bob Santamaria’s radio program and hang on his every word.  Already I find myself rivetted when Tony Abbott’s face comes on the box.  Whether Abbott will have the same polarizing effect only time will tell.

jimmy g says:

12:36pm | 02/12/09

YouTube : ” Tony Abbott, Sydney Writers Festival 2008. Excerpt: Peak oil”

A PM aspirant who has no idea what peak oil is???

Shame , Liberals, shame (or is it sham?)

Zeta says:

12:43pm | 02/12/09

@ Mark, to actually to contribute to what Hawker’s article was about:

I couldn’t disagree more. There is absolutely no room for minor parties in the Australian politic as it stands. Whatever our revered constitutional drafters might have had in mind, contemporary Federal Politics isn’t it. We now have a system, driven by the media, and bought into by the constituency, where elections serve only to select a majority through which an Executive might be formed. Any attempt to foist more minor parties beyond the current distractions we’re lumped with will serve to only dilute the ability of the Executive to carry out their duties.

Political parties must form a majority Government to lead Australia. The more minor parties sabotaging this will lead to chaos.

Imagine for a second that Malcolm Turnbull fronts a few million dollars and runs ‘The REAL Liberal Party, NSW Division (Splitters….)’ in the next election. Say he holds onto Wentworth because he’s so dripping wet Oxford Street goes gaga for him, say he even drags with him a few of the more moderate, monied electorates on the North Shore. He might even be able to have a red hot go at Anthony Albanese’s seat, Tanya Plibersek, and a few other inner city, left leaning locales. Say, he wins just three lower house seats and 1 senate seat for The REAL Liberal Party (like the REAL IRA, only less violent), then say in that election, Tony Abbott’s cosmic intellect and razor wit appeal to the extent that he claws back the 1 per cent national nominal 2 party prefferred - we have a hung Parliament. Malcolm Turnbull is the balance of power, without being representative of the 40 odd per cent of Australians who voted for the other mainstream parties.

You then have every decision being second guessed by the latte sippers in Balmain. Now, that might sound okay to other latte sippers in Melbourne, Brisbane, even the Marmite & Milk types in Hobart’s Newtown - but they’re a tiny percentage of the total population.

Sorry, lost my train of thought, Julia Gillard is on Sky right now, not dealing with Abbott terrorists.

Jayvee says:

12:49pm | 02/12/09

The trouble with reading Tea leaves, political or otherwise, is that when all is said and done they will still remain tea leaves and the properties you deludedly or deviously assign to them are generally neither here no there.- This of course is the domain of political ‘reporters’ and political ‘analysts’
Meanwhile back in the political kitchen, politicians do what politicians are supposed to do. They re-arrange things.
So the Liberals had a spill! So what? Sooner or later Labor once again will catch factional flue. Let’s face it they have more different factions than Heinz has different varieties of beans.
Labor currently SEEMS to be a pretty tight outfit while billions of cash are being sloshed about with gay abandon. If you all like, I can do the same thing too if you give me the cash to splash.  Just meet me in City Square tomorrow and I’ll make you all happy. Problem is that we are not very far away from BPT (Bill Paying Time).
Pretty soon there will be no more Rudd Induced money showers for all and sunder to jump under.
Ruddy’s Surreptitious Stealth Tax on Everything has just been called for what it really is and it has little or nothing to do with Climate Change. This little scam would produce about 15 Billion per year in government coffers per year And That is only the start up figure, ( We are only in first gear of the proposed upcoming surreptitious money grab) This will be going on forever afterwards at an increasing rate of knots. The increase rate from thereon in will be determined and will keep pace with the amount of Climate Change Fear & Guilt which can be created and/ generated amongst the population. I.E The more scared the voters are, or the guiltier they feel, the more the government can charge! A 5 % increase in electricity charges years ago would just about create a government change. Now we are already being softened up to accept 60 to 100% rises!
Scare scenario’s of seeing rising water levels up to Essendon Airport & and the foothills of the Dandenongs are appearing at regular intervals in all sorts of local rags. ( usually by fully Climate Change brainwashed 18 year old ‘reporters’ in waiting doing freebees on work experience) Our local rag showed Williamstown under a meter or so of water, without a single life jacket in sight)
The fact remains that no matter how much we all pay it is not going to slow down the melting of a single ice cube on the planet. It is not gonna create one extra drop of rain, to water our crops or reduce the impact of a single hurricane. All the main polluters are fully exempt in case you hadn’t noticed!
All it does is create a massive stash of government cash which can then be used to fob of voters at will by creating Climate Change Money Showers as the political need arises. Precisely what Ruddy is still doing now. And nobody is complaining as The Cash Mannah From Ruddy’s Heaven descends upon the gullible populace while they all sing in chorus:  ‘Ruddy be Praised’ and ‘Isn’t Ruddy Great!’
Its just like having another GST without having to push a second GST through parliament.

HeckleandJeckle says:

12:58pm | 02/12/09

Lucie says:01:33pm | 02/12/09
Alot of older and younger Aussies don’t understand the ETS . I think the lady was quite plain in saying she would not vote for Abbott but wanted something done about Global warming..Who are you Lucy? The thought Police? Understand the ETS or not, most of us do understand the weather is changing, we do know the poles and glaciers are melting. What scientific research have you done to be telling me or anyone else that this all some nazi communist plot of whatever rubbish Michinn said. Everyone has a right to their point of view and your one reason I will never vote Liberal. Your to critical of others who differ from your thoughts. Abbotts views on abortion and wanting to take the rights from women are enough to make me any many others turn away from him..and I hate his budgie smugglers, he needs to buy a bigger buggie , his is a bit sad

Lance Peters says:

01:15pm | 02/12/09

HeckleandJeckle, I think you have missed Lucie’s point. I don’t see in her post where she rejects global warming? She seems to be pointing out that there are alternatives and debate about what should be done about Global Warming. Nazi Communist plot? Minchin? are not even mentioned? I think you should go back and read her post before you are so critical.

Mark Worthington says:

01:16pm | 02/12/09

I dismiss this argument like I dismissed a friends similar argument last night, the libs will never split.  Although the idea is delightful

Chase Stevens says:

01:18pm | 02/12/09

A new centre centre party would be interesting. A party that represents the majority but also makes decisions based on rational thinking and logic would also be interesting.

Doghead says:

01:25pm | 02/12/09

Nice try Bruce. Keep spinning those wheels

iansand says:

01:56pm | 02/12/09

If global warming is happening, and an ETS is not the answer, what is?

John and Sonia says:

02:18pm | 02/12/09

Malcolm Trumbull , it is time to start a new Republican Party of Australia.
We will join right away.

6c legs says:

02:45pm | 02/12/09

abbot and his dodgey followers make my head hurt.

@Zeta: Brilliant first post!

A new “liberal” party? nah, i don’t think so. they might survive a few years before imploding like the Democrats.

to the dumbos that bounced Turnbull. *I* would’ve seriously had to question myself why I *couldn’t have voted* for him; you know, change my vote from Green. BUT there’s NO WAY i’d ever vote for abbot.

Damn, I get sick of being labeled a latte sipping rich bitch. I don’t drink coffee, am certainly not rich! and if i need to wear any label it’s that of Forgotten Australian. But i do have a social conscience, something that abot and his cronies don’t.

Frankie V. says:

02:51pm | 02/12/09

Penberthy, this is bull@#%$!

A paid party hack’s affiliations should be clearly stated at the end, or preferably, the beginning of their post.

As for you Bruce, I hope you have this much to say when your mates in New South Wales are hauled before a Royal Commission.

Mark says:

03:48pm | 02/12/09

Zeta - love your work, and agree it is not in the country’s long term interests to have any more than two strong parties capable of forming government, but frankly the direction the Libs are now heading in they will end up being no more than a marginal voice anyway, so something has to replace them to restore the political balance. The middle ground comprise a far bigger group than the Balmain latte sippers (I don’t even like latte’s - much less Marmite & milk!), and would be as much disaffected Labor voters looking for an alternative to the spin of Rudd as progressive Libs mourning the loss of Turnbull.

Phil says:

04:04pm | 02/12/09

Iansand

Is an ETS the answer. I say no. Please tell me how by paying big emitters to emit Carbon and compensating those who in some cases choose not to suceed in life will lower the planets temperature.

Please tell me if Australia goes ahead with this ETS and is sucessful in lowering our CO2 by the year 2020 by .000045 of 1% of the world’s CO2 levels at tihs point, mind you China is growing their CO2 levels as is India so it will be counter productive, cept a few more Labor Voters will be without jobs, that the planet will some how cool immediately. It wont and you know it. Barnaby Joyce asked this very question of CSIRO and Penny Wong and he did not get an answer.

The answer is forget this tax, install some Nuclear Power Stations, this will lower our emissions considerably after they are built, say 2020 and as we have plenty of fuel for them after the initial bite is cost, it should be smooth sailing from there.

This and give low interest loans for installing Solar, not a small system that does 20% of your electricity bill but 100% of it therefore reducing our need to burn fossil fuels for power.

I would like to know what iansand actually does for a living, and whether he will be effected by the ETS in its current form or whether he will be compensated for the added impost to his budget ? The same goes for all ETS supporters who write on this and other blogs.  Or do you actually work for the Unions/ALP/Penny Wong.

Frankie V. says:

04:07pm | 02/12/09

“”“"Gay couples are cancelling their marriage plans.”“”“

Terry, despite the fact that one of its Supreme Governors wrote the world’s foremost textbooks on witches, Anglicanism, the sect our Dear Leader belongs to, is not a science.

Kevin Rudd supported Howard’s legislation to prevent gay marriage, and as the Hansard will attest, almost no Labor Senators voted against it.  And its Kevin Rudd now putting measures in place to overturn civil unions in the ACT.

More importantly, Labor has been in power in most states and territories for donkey’s years, and apart from the Al Grassby fanclub in Canberra, not one of the long and undistinguished list of Premiers and Chief Ministers has lifted a finger to legalise gay marriage.

In fact, if Labor were to vote as a block with the Greens; Anna Bligh, Nathan Rees and John Brumby all have the numbers, and the constitutional power, to legalise gay marriage today.

Of course like his mandatory detention and HECs shtick, Bruce is saving his mock indignation about the issue of gay marriage for a future date when the federal Labor Party are in opposition and they can beat it around the heads of the conservatives.

But I must congratulate you Terry for having the gall to criticise Tony Abbott for apposing gay marriage on the grounds of his religious beliefs, while being so very comfortable with Keating, Carr, et al, apposing gay marriage legislation for purely cynical political reasons.

Anthony says:

05:47pm | 02/12/09

@Steve; I did answer your questions but you chose not to read them but pull out more far right style red herrings instead.
We agree on the pollution problem in China-we have both seen it and undoubtedly smelt it.
Thanks for the lesson on CO2- thank God for the trees for sucking it out of the air and giving us oxygen instead.
Human activity since the industrial revolution has increased the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmpsphers; leading to increased radiative forcing from C0s (repeat Co2). The concentration of CO2 and methane have increased by 36% and 148% respectively since the Mid 1770s..
Fossil fuel burning has produced about three quarters of the increase in CO2 (repeat C02) from human activity in the past 20 years.
Now for Spain- The roots of the Spanish problem are many but there is one underlying ingredient which more or less governs everything else; the dependence on external financing due to the ongoing current account deficit, and the difficulties the banks have had raising this external financing since the outbreak of the ‘financial turmoil” (aka as the US sub prime crisis)
The Spainiards went on a debt binge to fund a property boom to satisfy the the British ego trip of a holiday or retirement home in sunny Spain funded by debt. That is the reason for the Spanish economy tanking, NOT green power. and for you to claim that is disingenouis.

iansand says:

08:23pm | 02/12/09

Phil@5:04 Damn fine ideas, and with an ETS all those initiatives will generate carbon credits that can be sold to dinosaurs who continue to burn carbon.  It subsidises alternate energy, and makes power produced from fossil fuels more expensive.

That is why an ETS makes sense in a free market capitalist future.  Of course if you call it a tax, this does not work.

Abbott and Barnaby are not real bright.

small l says:

03:24pm | 06/12/09

The Democrats proved that you can be a long standing third force in politics as long as internal division doesn’t destroy what you stand for.  There has been disquiet in the Liberal party for some time. The preferred position would be for the ultra conservatives to leave and join the National party and leave the true liberals in the Liberal party. Unfortunately we don’t have a National party to speak of in SA.  A third party is not so pie in the sky as some would believe. There was a state council meeting of the Liberals in SA on Friday night. One bold former MP stood up and spoke about how the ultra conservatives had caused some of the worst divisions in the party over the years and he spoke of his desire for change. The thunderous applause from the delegates demonstrated that there are a lot of members who are fed up with the way some Mp’s are more concerned about power at all costs then winning elections and being truly representative of their constituents.