There’s been much ado about love over the past week. And that’s quite apart from speculation over whether or not Brad and his wacky old-man beard might be reuniting with Jennifer Aniston.

Back together…perhaps.

Debate has been stirred around the world courtesy of the book ‘Marry Him: the Case for Settling for Mr Good Enough’, by American writer Lori Gottlieb, to be released in the United States this week.

In it, Gottlieb - who is 42 and the single mother of a child conceived via sperm donation - holds herself up as a cautionary tale: if you cling to the (unrealistic) ideal of finding Mr Right, you may end up all alone.

The book urges single women approaching 30 to reconsider their standards.  “We grew up thinking that marriage meant feeling some kind of divine spark, and so we walked away from uninspiring relationships that might have made us happy,” she says.

For Gottlieb, such sparky thinking has all the makings of a disaster, “Ask any soul-baring 40-year-old single heterosexual woman what she most longs for in life … Most likely, she’ll say that what she really wants is a husband and, by extension, a child.”

Unsurprisingly, the call to settle has sparked bagfuls of outrage from the love police who think marriage is more complex and special than running an “often boring nonprofit business” - as Gottlieb describes it. 

Becky Pugh recently opined in the Telegraph, “[marriage] should be born of a good, old-fashioned feeling, deep inside, which tells you both that you simply cannot be without each other.”

Others again have lambasted the modern girl for being too picky and therefore too unlucky.  Oprah’s O magazine called the book “surprisingly, unnervingly convincing”.

But despite the column inches devoted to the issue so far, there has been little mention of fact that ‘Marry Him’ assumes a pretty retro view of what women want.  Whatever side people have taken in the debate, is has been taken for granted that marriage and children are the number one goal for women. 

Of course a husband and kids are super important for many.  But as anyone who has heard of the 1970s will know, it simply isn’t true that this is every girl’s raison d’être.  Or that they have been disorganised or negligent in some way if it doesn’t happen.

A survey conducted last year by the Rockefeller Foundation and Time found that being married was ‘very important’ to only 53 per cent of women surveyed, while 54 per cent of women strongly agreed they could have a fulfilling life without marriage. Having children was the top life goal for just 66 per cent of women surveyed. 

In Australia, as of 2008, unmarried women outnumbered married women for the first time since World War I, with Pacific Micromarketing estimating up to 25 per cent of women will remain childless. 

This lack of matrimony and procreation is not just because women are waiting for Prince William to see the light or because they plan to delay childbearing until their late 40s. 

There are many widely acknowledged personal, career, lifestyle and environmental reasons why women choose to remain single and or childless.  For others, it’s got more to do with circumstance. Blame a lack of serendipity or the man drought.

The book’s assumption that marriage and children will lead to fulfillment is another furphy.  Studies such as those conducted at Michigan State University suggest that individuals have a happiness ‘set point’ that is not particularly effected by marriage. 

Academics at Harvard and Syracuse Universities have also found that children have a negative impact on marital satisfaction and parents’ happiness.

Social mores and studies aside, for a book supposed to help single women find a man, ‘Marry Him’ also saddles them with decidedly bad PR. 

With all its talk of women’s fairytale standards and horror at being single, today’s woman comes across as delusional, immature and desperate. Sure makes then sound appealing to potential partners, hey? 

As for the men, with Gottlieb debunking the ‘ideal man’ as fiction, it must be good to know they’ve scraped into the B team.

Dissecting our expectations about partnership is a worthwhile discussion to have when so many marriages end in divorce.

But the ‘Marry Him’ debate wrongly assumes 1950s values for all and perpetuates the myth that marriage and children are a certain path to fulfillment. It also unfairly paints single women as desperados and men as losers.

None of which sounds like a convincing recipe for happily (or even ‘good enough’) ever after.

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159 comments

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    • Eric says:

      06:45am | 08/02/10

      I hope Ms Ireland’s viewpoint becomes more common. Marriage and children are a disaster for men in today’s society, so the fewer the women who pursue those goals, the better off we will be.

    • bec says:

      07:59am | 08/02/10

      “the fewer the women who pursue lady-haters like Eric, the better off we will be”....

      Fixed that for you!

    • Jezza says:

      10:20am | 08/02/10

      So Eric…...where will you get your much wanted sex???? Oh I get it…you are AKA “Mr One Night Stand!”  My advice to all young women is to keep your legs crossed until the gold band is on the ring finger. This is the advice that us oldies were given by our mothers so that men had to marry us if they wanted sex….which they do…..& most of us followed this advice which meant that out boyfriends had to marry us in order to get their “jollies!” These days men can get sex anywhere so why bother tying themselves down to one woman when they can remain single but still get plenty of sex.

    • James says:

      10:33am | 08/02/10

      Sweeping statement there Eric.  Speaking for myself, I love my partner and child, and my life would be pretty dull and empty without them.  Couldn’t be much further from a disaster really.  What happened to you that you hate women so much?

    • Dr Gaye Barr says:

      10:47am | 08/02/10

      Eric,

      You’ve had a TERRIBLE time by the sound of it. Clearly, a member of the opposite gender has forced your hand – were you kidnapped, hog-tied and dragged down the aisle by the hair or was your good nature and reluctance to inflict hurt through rejection simply taken advantage of? It is good to read that you have shaken that vulnerability and progressed to a stage in your life where you can bask in the wisdom of hindsight and the knowledge that you will not fall prey to marriage again.  Unfortunately for all the single femail predators, it sounds like you’re off the market. That’ll fix them.

    • Dial A Husband says:

      02:26pm | 08/02/10

      My son is a virgin - and he worked it out for himself. Stay that way until you marry - if you marry at all.  You do not need another person to make you whole, to complete you. There are too many complications when the marriage breaks down.

    • Kel says:

      04:30pm | 08/02/10

      Poor sad, pathetic Eric .... perhaps you better start dating men. Don’t you realise some children are actually, wait for it, shock horror .... boys! And they grow into men! Perhaps we should start removing them all from their evil mothers in order to save their immortal souls! One might say that marriage is indeed a disaster for a lot of women ... but obviously in your small mind it’s just us women that are to blame for all the woes of the world. Have you ever considered the possibly that you have been treated poorly because you sir are an asshat?

    • Shaun says:

      08:11pm | 08/02/10

      Eric’s got a point..  marriage is totally structured around the security of women at the emotional & financial detriment of men. Just look how ridiculously unfair the splits are handled in the courts.. The guy’s get taken to the cleaners.. (& no i haven’t been divorced)..  Now that women have comparable opportunities to education and careers this need to “pin a guy down” just isn’t there anymore..  i think that’s the reason why so many people have so much trouble fitting into this old social model ... modern life just isn’t compatible with it..  flame away.

    • cats says:

      03:50pm | 09/02/10

      But Eric, you should know that if people stop having children then men will die out anyway? I know you’re a troll and don’t believe what you said, just thought i’d point out the flaw in your “logic”

    • omegaman says:

      11:13pm | 09/02/10

      I support Eric, I know too many men on their knees with no recourse when the women just decides she is leaving with the kids and most of the house. If you don’t get deeply involved with a woman you are lucky.  Tony Abbott is a fan of re-introducing at-fault divorce and that would be a good thing

    • JJJ says:

      07:01am | 08/02/10

      I agree. While I haven’t read the book (or even heard of it before this article), I think that people who cannot be genunely and thoroughly happy in a relationship should not be in one. I would rather be alone than pollute the world with my unhappiness or subject my neighbours to arguments (like my unhappy neighbours do!). I blame movies for the unusual standards/expectations my single women friends have on what true love and a healthy relationship should be… they don’t even know what to look for in a man! Still, maybe if you cannot find somone you fit well with in the first 30 years of your life you are not meant to be with anyone? Darwin’s theory…

    • sydneysider says:

      07:19am | 08/02/10

      Well, about time that women had to think like this.  Men have been settling for the ‘almost good enough’ for centuries; otherwise we didn’t get any sex. 

      Even today, surveys show that over 75% of married men wish they were having more sex than their partner provides.  They are certainly having to ‘settle’....

    • EstherR says:

      12:06pm | 08/02/10

      If you think marriage is all about men getting sex, it’s no wonder you’ve had to lower your standards.

    • Mickey says:

      12:53pm | 08/02/10

      Esther, see comment above from Jezza and you may see why some men feel this way. That is a theory that led to many “happy” marriages. No wonder the divorce rate is where it is.

    • EstherR says:

      01:44pm | 08/02/10

      I’m sure there’s an equally impressive statistic for the number of women eager to fulfill their role as successful, sexy and boundlessly energetic working wife/mothers, who’d like more help around the home, or for their husbands to take a more active role in parenting. And while men may want more sex, women want better sex. When that balance is achieved, it’s called a win/win situation.

      Yet, there’s a bigger market for marriage guides advising women to drop their standards than for the elusive genre that tells men how to lift their game.

    • EstherR says:

      05:08pm | 08/02/10

      Clearly, the women I know aren’t acquainted with the men you know, but I’m happy for your generalization to be better than mine.
      However, the tendency to reduce marriage to a sexual transaction is unlikely to persuade women who are considering dropping their standards.

      And I won’t argue over gender equality in human flaws, but umpteen books like Gottlieb’s place the onus on the woman to make the relationship work, whereas there is very little such literature aimed at men. Equality, you say?

    • Ray says:

      06:09pm | 08/02/10

      Esther, are you sure its not men that need to drop their standards and women who need to lift their game. I favour the forgoing to your stereo type that beguiles women. All we ever discuss is men needing to meet women’s standards. Well women are that conceited in their own space that it is a pre requisite that they disparage men. That is the impasse, not a feminist induced cop out like the myth of a man drought.

    • Micke says:

      10:52am | 10/02/10

      Esther, you’re right. Obviously the women you know are not acquainted with the me i know. And my generalisation is no more valid than yours. I was trying to point out the futility of basing your arguments on anecdotal evidence. And just because authors put forward theories espousing womens role in relationships, why listen? And therein lies your answer as to why there is not the same literature aimed at men. We are less likely to buy that hogwash. Perhaps it comes down to men needing less vaildation? I honestly dont know. But these books arent aimed at men because they are not financially viable. Because men wont buy them. Its the same as the slimming industry. It is aimed at women. Because they are more overweight than men? No. Because they are more likely to have their sense of self worth run down by others attitudes.

    • Mickey says:

      02:38pm | 08/02/10

      where do you get the stat for men wanting more and women wanting better? That sounds like an old school generalisation. The men that i know would gladly give up quantity for quality.  Sounds like you need to come into this century. These days it is equally likely to find a wife that can not measure up as it is to find a husband that falls down in necessary areas. Welcome to the world of EQUAL rights.

    • T.Chong says:

      07:31am | 08/02/10

      The gals who dont want to marry wont. No ones forced to.
      Lori Gottlieb is out after a market who still want to hitch up, so shes selling her product to that group, thats all, no big deal.
      What I do find concerning is the “Academics at Harvard and Syracuse….”
      If kids are seen as detrimental to “parents happiness” then it sounds as if these are the very type of people who never should have been parents to begin with.
      We have two bratz-Itchy and Scratchy, who can be absolute pains, but they dont make us unhappy, and depite all their genetic and learned bad habits, we luv em as they are.
      I hope anyone who is a parent would think the same about their kids.

    • INSPIRED PARENT says:

      08:30pm | 08/02/10

      T.Chong- Totally agree…I keep coming across gloomy discussions about parents/marriages, children etc and am baffled…

    • bec says:

      08:02am | 08/02/10

      All other things aside, imagine being a dude and finding “Marry Him: The Case for Settling” on your girlfriend or fiancee’s bookshelf. Yeowch - painful moment.

      Seriously, what kind of person wants to think that the only reason their partner is with them is because they were the least offensive option at the time? Imagine trapping yourself into a life with someone you’re only indifferent to because you’ve bought into the myth that there is only one way to live your life.

      Do yourselves a favour. Don’t buy self-help books written by people who fail at being in relationships. (Yes, this includes “The Rules” and “The Game”.) Find someone you like, who makes you happy. Or don’t.

    • J says:

      09:44am | 08/02/10

      @bec

      Well said!  Whilst I can see Gottleib’s point (there is no hope rejecting a man immediately if he doesn’t ‘tick every box’ or whatever), there’s also no point settling for someone because popular opinion dictates you should.

      Find your own path, make mistakes, have adventures, and the rest will fall into place.

      And I agree - ‘The Rules’ is foul.  My friend bought that book.  She’s onto her millionth ‘real relationship’...

    • RT says:

      09:48am | 08/02/10

      It would be better than finding a super-sized vibrator on her shelf. Most men would feel a bit intadequate at such a sight.

    • bec says:

      10:11am | 08/02/10

      “The Rules” is hideous. I detest any advice that encourages people to be deceitful or insincere. It did give me at least a moment of schadenfreude to note that the author ended up divorced. What is it with people who are defective in personal relationships earning money from passing on this same crummy advice to others? Yeesh. Go talk to your grandparents who were married for 65+ years, or the gay couple on your street who’ve made it work for more than 20, despite the odds and challenges.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      10:33am | 08/02/10

      You mean that maybe my wife doesn’t think that I’m some kind of perfect price - but still a decent guy that she is happy with. Sounds great to me.

    • Batter says:

      11:33am | 08/02/10

      I’d rather see Gottlieb’s book on her bookshelf than Austen, Mills&Boon;, Wuthering Heights or any other number of bodice rippers.

      I’d much rather a practical thinking woman who had her head screwed on right than one whose head was in the clouds with fantasies of romantic notions.

      I know I’m not the perfect man and never will be, so I’d rather a woman who wasn’t “waiting for” the perfect man. We might have a chance if that was the case.

    • bec says:

      11:48am | 08/02/10

      Oh Batter. I like that you think Wuthering Heights is a romance. Oh dear. You have read these books, right? They’re more like guides on how NOT to conduct a romance and marriage.

    • bec says:

      07:07pm | 08/02/10

      Also, Jane Austen is just plain *funny* and clever. There are few repositories of wit and insults as good as her books.

    • Anne says:

      08:40pm | 08/02/10

      @batter -  the fact that you mention Austen and Wuthering Heights in the same breath as Mills and Boon proves that you have never read any of the books in question. Wuthering Heights - melodrama, yes. Bodice-ripping romance - are you kidding?!? Cathy and Heathcliff are complete psycho hosebeasts! As for Jane Austen’s novels, the bodices stay firmly unripped, thank you very much, although the occasional bosom might heave wink And a lot of the issues raised in Austen’s novels remain relevant even today. Perhaps you should try reading them some time.

    • J says:

      01:32pm | 08/02/10

      @bec - agreed. 

      @Batter- just because women read romantic novels doesn’t mean they’re looking for ‘perfect’ love.  I agree some take it too far (Twilight springs to mind), but people can be both practical and have the occasional need to escape to the fantasy once in a while…

    • Em says:

      05:38pm | 08/02/10

      Batter… you did not seriously just equate Austen and Bronte to “bodice ripper” romance novels, did you?  Personally I would rather see a woman read beautiful, world-renowned, classic literature than any stupid self-help book written by some spinster who’s realised she made a mistake with her path in life.  Just so you know (because you obviously haven’t read them), none of the people in the Austen or the Bronte books are perfect. They’re wonderfully flawed in character and disposition. If anything, they teach women you can love someone IN SPITE of whatever percieved flaws a person may have.

    • Anne says:

      07:59pm | 08/02/10

      @bec - excellent comment. I personally could not think of anything more insulting for a man than to be considered Mr I’ll Guess You’ll Have to Do.  I’m 39 and happily single, but for a long time in my late 20s I was really freaking out because the perception is that you SHOULD be married with kids - or at least planning to have kids - by the time you’re 30.  And if you don’t, then there’s something wrong with you. Then I realised, when I really thought about it, that I actually liked being single. And that unless I met a man who I really couldn’t imagine being without, I’d be much happier staying single, rather than marry merely to conform to society’s expectations. Books like the ones you mentioned, Bec, only reinforce the perception that you have to be paired up to be truly happy. Bollocks. If you’re not happy living with yourself, how can you ever be happy living with someone else?

    • @BlokesLib says:

      08:35am | 08/02/10

      I have given this a fair bit of thought of late and I must admit I am rapidly becoming a believer that Mr Average can often make a better long term husband than so called Mr Right. It all comes down to attitude.
      How many people have noticed a trend among the female of the species to pick out the one negative among the 999 positives a prospective mate may offer.
      The vary act of this habit may well doom you to never be totally satisfied with a choice of partner.
      If she were to stop fixating on the few aspects that fall short of her lofty expectations and concentrate on the good, her long term satisfaction in life is possibly more likely to be a positive one.
      With Mr Average she may well stop trying to point out the negatives & focus on building life’s experiences.

    • AlanB says:

      08:58am | 08/02/10

      I think you sir may possess a better understanding of the female mind than the average male. Keep up the good work.

    • Rebecca says:

      11:45am | 08/02/10

      Totally agree with you smile I was worried that my boyfriend is too immature (which he is) until i realised that it doesn’t matter - because he is amazing in so many other ways and treats me like a princess! Every woman needs to realise this and appreciate the great things about their man.

    • PingPong says:

      08:42am | 08/02/10

      Why would anyone want to have children with the huge taxation progression and a warming world.  We should all go out with a bang. The only problem is men are rationed, by women, and well women dont see it this way.
      Wedding cake has ruined many a mans sex life. And governments his capability to enjoy his job. Real Estate is being sold overseas, as are all our assets…. Ruddy government…Howie government. Hasnt anyone got any ideas on how to run this country or am I the only one without vested interests?

    • Born free says:

      08:56am | 08/02/10

      If men had the same standards as women we’d all want you to be supermodels who can cook like Nigella Lawson and have sex like acrobatic porn stars.

      Thankfully, for all concerned, we don’t. We’ve always been realistic about what is out there and what we can achieve.

      It’s time for women to do the same. I’ve met far too many women that are delusional, immature and desperate to the point that it has turned me off dating. I’d rather enjoy life than be responsible for fulfilling someone’s delusional aspirations for fairytales and sparks and “a good, old-fashioned feeling, deep inside, which tells you both that you simply cannot be without each other” [Becky, marriage has always, and will always, be a business. It used to be about ownership and property. Do your research and grow up].

    • Oldie says:

      09:54am | 08/02/10

      So agree and I’m an old time feminist! LOng term amrried I might add.Too many Princesses out there!

    • Joe says:

      10:24am | 08/02/10

      Amen.

    • AnotherBecWhatAreTheOdds says:

      11:11am | 08/02/10

      @JJJ wanting to procreate is innate. My brain tells me don’t bring another child into this world full of war, neglect and abuse. Yet I can’t dispel the urge to be holding a tiny human smothering it with kisses. Evolution has dictated this for the survival of our species.

    • Mickey says:

      01:00pm | 08/02/10

      Balderdash. You make out mankind is no further advanced than the rest of the animal kingdom. This is just making excuses for the instant gratification attitude of current generations.

    • Karen M says:

      05:57pm | 08/02/10

      @JJJ - I bet you’re great fun at dinner parties.

    • cats says:

      05:51pm | 09/02/10

      Come on, its not just women who do this. It’s shit people that do this. That includes men too. Your arguement is pathetic. I’ve known plenty of women and men who think that their partners must be perfect. You tell other people to “grow up” but your arguement is just immature.

    • JJJ says:

      10:07am | 08/02/10

      I don’t see the point in having children myself and wonder why people bother. Everyone will die eventually and children cost a lot and can also die young (a friend of mine has a daughter - 2yrs - with cancer -  VERY upsetting), not die young and end out ice-addicts, or just… not amount to much. The Govt should certainly not be rewarding people for having babies, that’s for sure!!! Pay the people who chose NOT to breed ‘cause they are doing the environment a favour.

    • T.Chong says:

      08:57am | 08/02/10

      “We’ll all be ruined ” said Hanrahan, “before the year is out”.

    • GG says:

      09:09am | 08/02/10

      Just like every other “self help” book for single women, it appears that Gottlieb is making a dollar from an outlandish statement.
      Think along the lines of ‘hes just not that into you’ or ‘act like a lady, think like a man’.
      The scary thing is, although we all have a notion of what an independent modern woman should act and think like, we as women, will always be wanting to understand men and relationships. hence why books like these will sell for as long as there are single and/or unhappy women out there…

    • AM says:

      09:33am | 08/02/10

      Why is it that the media ALWAYS portrays childlessness as the woman’s “CHOICE”. How about this for “choice” - spending 5 years with a man including marriage in your 30’s who then turns around and says “I’ve changed my mind, I don’t want children and I don’t want to be married to you”.

    • Lily says:

      11:31am | 08/02/10

      Great article, I am one of those women who don’t think marriage and children are necessarily needed for me to have a happy or fulfilling life.

    • IAM says:

      02:19pm | 08/02/10

      He did you a favour, sister, he’s out of your life for good…Imagine having had the kids and having to share them with him….You’ll meet someone who really shares your values, and you’ll be glad it happened the way it did!

    • Marco says:

      04:14pm | 08/02/10

      Sucks to be you then huh AM

    • Emma says:

      10:00am | 08/02/10

      I think the key thing to remember here is to just do what you can live with. If you’re with someone and you know they’re not “the one but” you can live with settling for second best - go for it.  If not, be prepared to live alone but with the upside that you’re not living a lie.  It applies to all decisions in life.  Do what you know you can live with in good conscience.  This woman has a point.  Doesn’t mean it applies to all people but she does have a message for people who are unrealistic in their expectations.

    • Terry says:

      10:18am | 08/02/10

      I want to read the reverse article to this and then the comments. Men don’t settle for a women that is good enough, you need the perfect looking women who’ll do house work, share all your values, respect your needs for time away from her etc etc etc.

      Life is about compromise people and if you want to be in a relationship you have to learn to love someone for who they are and not who you want them to be. If you’re with someone who expects more than that leave because it will only end badly.

      The idea that people can have everything they want is rubbish very few can but everyone can learn to accept the life they have chosen and once they have find happiness in everyday life and there partner and themselves.

    • Heather says:

      09:09pm | 08/02/10

      My (now) ex-husband “settled” for me. This annoyed him so much he took it out on me. Yes, sometimes physically.

      No, I didn’t harange him to marry me, etc, ad nauseum, blah blah: I had no idea he, in fact, didn’t even love me at *all*—he didn’t even know me. I did not find this out until some time after the wedding when I asked him why he seemed to hate me so much he resented the fact I was alive? (no exaggeration. He once told me I wasn’t “worth the paper my birth certficate was written on” and that “there was no point treating me well because I would just leave him anyway.” Hm. He was half right on that one, actually *grin*).

      I believe that yes, people shoud be realistic in their expectations, and not go pecking for faults as an excuse to drop someone off their phone list, but I don’t think this is the same as “settling” for someone “because no one else will have” you. I think the term “settling” is the issue here.

      Realism: yes.

      Settling: no, unless you’re the type of person (male or female) who can live with it without making the other person miserable.

      I tend to think you can actually love anyone who is a half-decent human being if you are one too, and both respect each other for who they are, siilarities and differences. It’s all about attitude; love is an active verb, not just an emotion, if that makes sense.

    • Nathman says:

      10:17am | 08/02/10

      “The Man Drought”.... Fact is, there is none. Show a 30-something, moderately successful, attractive woman a room full of 30-something, moderately successful, attractive men she will say ‘There are not decent men here’.

      In arguing about the mythical man drought, you might as well argue that there is the exact same in reverse; a lack of young women who present themselves are an appropriate choice for a partner.

      Talk about rash generalisation.

    • Michael says:

      10:26am | 08/02/10

      There was certainly a choice of sorts made there, as a decision was made to be with that man for a period of 5 years. A woman in that situation has (sadly) lost out by reason of that poor decision she has made. It is very rare that there aren’t alarm bells about this sort of thing early on that are ignored.

    • CC says:

      10:27am | 08/02/10

      Life is full of compromises. People should try to accept that fact of life, and not think they are special and deserve something special – it’s simply NOT the case.

    • Wayne says:

      10:51am | 08/02/10

      Nobody should settle for second best, man or woman. However the whole Hollywood RomComs have given some women (and men) unrealistic expectations of finding that one true love. In real life there aren’t these incredibly tortured scenes of realising that he/she is the one and running after them as they’re about to marry the wrong one or about to get on a plane and leave forever.

      As others have already stated it’s expecting that the man fits this white knight picture that for most men is impossible to achieve.

      It’s about finding someone that accepts you for who you are and accepts the little flaws that every charater has.  It’s about someone that makes you laugh and has a similar view on life and similar goals.  It’s about equality in the truest sense of the word.  Nobody, man or woman, should settle for anything less.

      As for the sex stopping when you’re married.  Please just becuase you’re not doing it every night like you did when you first met and you’re hormones were raging doesn’t mean it stops.  That too is a generalisation.

    • Karen M says:

      06:05pm | 08/02/10

      Well said Wayne.  A woman should choose a partner in life, not a knight in shining armour. Hopefully he chooses her too. The important aspects are humour, cooperation, acceptance and similar values. Of course a nice dose of attraction and some good sex is also part of the equation, but this isn’t the bit that will see you through the next 50 years.

    • Jay says:

      11:00am | 08/02/10

      I think the problem is men have become less manly, seductive and more whimpy/nice guy/needy since the 70s and women cant find any real men as a result. Mr Right is more based on logic rather than emotion, and since when does a logical relationship make you fall in love…...?

    • Bitten says:

      11:12am | 08/02/10

      Very true, well said.

    • Di says:

      11:29am | 08/02/10

      It’s been proven, marriage is no good for women. There is not one marriage i have seen that i’d like to be a party to.  Men play at love to get sex, women play at sex to get love.  This planets biggest problem IS humans too many being born…they call it the population bomb…set to ruin us all.  It’s also been researched that ppl marry for all sorts of reasons, not necessarily just LOVE.  source: Institute of Family Studies

    • halberstram says:

      11:32am | 08/02/10

      I doubt that happens much - It seems to me it’s just another urban myth women use to blame men for the time they wasted in their twenties and early thirties partying when they should have been settling down.

    • Ab says:

      11:40am | 08/02/10

      I am surprised at how many jaded, cynical comments are on this story! Wow I hope I don’t end up (as I get older) with views of marriage like some of these comment leavers…!

    • Working married parent of 2 says:

      11:47am | 08/02/10

      Don’t get married and don’t have children.
      Marriage = slavery.
      If you have any concerns about your ability to parent, or choosing the right partner, then listen to those concerns because they WILL come back to haunt you later.
      Stay single and enjoy your short life.

    • James says:

      12:07pm | 08/02/10

      I can’t believe anyone with children would look at them in such a way.  Children are the very embodiment of joy - I can not even look at my child without feeling intense joy and satisfaction.  She is a part of me, and I of her: her suffering is mine, her joy is mine.

      I know this all sounds a lot like a Hallmark card, but to me it is true.  I do not understand what enjoyment people squeeze from life if they have not experienced the wonder of creating and raising a new life.

    • Barx says:

      04:30pm | 08/02/10

      @James - I for one cannot stand the thought of having kids. Grubby, dirty, noisy, disruptive little midges who will ruin me financially and destroy my sex life. Children are the embodiment of joy?

      Please, the embodiment of joy is spending sunday afternoons when your wife puts on some skimpy’s and you spend it in bed (or elsewhere) without any interruptions. The embodiment of joy is travelling when you want and being able to go out to dinner/functions without having to worry about babysitters or feeding times.

      “I do not understand what enjoyment people squeeze from life if they have not experienced the wonder of creating and raising a new life”.  How about doing whatever the hell we want, all the time.

      It’s parent’s like you that make me sick. I’m sure you’re one of these people who are oblivious to the terrors while they are running amok at the local cafe or swinging off cupboard doors and breaking them, or worse, you watch them do these things with a tear in your eye and some misguided sense of satisfaction. I bet you believe someone without kids is some kind of failure, well guess what, have fun at your P&C meetings pal.

    • Restless says:

      05:20pm | 08/02/10

      Amen to that!!  Not the children part but the marriage part.  Marriage is definitely slavery and i rue the day that i said yes.

    • James says:

      07:33pm | 08/02/10

      Okay then Barx, aggressive much?

      Really though, not all children are like you were as a child - some kids a quite clean and well behaved.  Your parents must have been hard people to raise you in such a loveless home - did you mum constantly complain about how grubby and noisy you were, and how you ruined her body?  You poor thing…  Probably best not to pass that on to the next generation then - its for the best that you do stay childless.  I don’t think you are a failure at all - just a little misguided and naive.

    • elcee says:

      09:03am | 09/02/10

      James, you call Barx aggressive? by saying you can’t understand how ppl without kids enjoy life, what kind of responses did you expect? I would like to have kids, but I have had no success despite going through treatments, so naturally ppl like me will find your comment mildly insulting. There is much wonder for us childless ppl out there, how about enjoying making something of our lives rather than living through our children vicariously as some parents out there do? How bout enjoying making a difference now in life ourselves rather than the attitude of some parents out there thinking their children will make a difference so they needn’t bother? I guess there is a lot more freedoms to not having kids that parents can understand from having had a bit of that before they had kids, but will never fully understand because they have had so many years of raising kids. Not having kids doesn’t mean that our lives are a waste and full of misery and lack of contribution.

      As for working married parent of 2, so they said what they really think, they said the unpopular opinion of parents that so often some parents are very afraid to admit and keep as their hidden secret. It always amazes me when other parents judge them for it! Geez it must be hard to be a parent and face the criticism of other parents!

    • Barx says:

      09:21am | 09/02/10

      OK James, quote cheesy Americanist slang much?

      Actually my childhood was quite OK, all things considered. At least I’m honest. Not living behind the self delusion that kids are the be all and end all. You want to call me aggressive, yet you’ve had a shot at my mother, my childhood and my entire point of view. This is a forum for expressing ideas and the fact you basically jumped on and said “I have a kid and therefore I am right and everyone else is wrong” says a lot about you.

      That kind of attitude is dangerous for any parent. Not that I am one, and yes, I won’t ‘breed’ because I don’t have the patience or the inclination. The thing is I have learned this for myself before landing myself in the position of having to raise the byproduct of a shag. Not ‘fallen into it’ and now having to self delude myself in the mirror every day that ‘my child is oh so perfect and I don’t want for anything else in the world’.

      Good luck with all that. Especially the teenage years.

    • James says:

      10:23am | 09/02/10

      Hi Barx, remember this?

      “It’s parent’s like you that make me sick. I’m sure you’re one of these people who are oblivious to the terrors while they are running amok at the local cafe or swinging off cupboard doors and breaking them, or worse, you watch them do these things with a tear in your eye and some misguided sense of satisfaction.”

      Simply put, you started in insulting people’s children calling them terrors and then making a complete stranger out to be awful.  I know you can not understand how it feels when someone attacks your child without cause, but that makes people a little annoyed.  Furthermore, it is interesting that you cite laying in bed all day and eating dinner at restaurants as being the best things you can do.  That just makes me smile, because I have done all of that, and indeed still do when the fancy takes me.  I smile because there is a whole other level of happiness you will never have access to, things like holding your own child, and watching her take those first steps, and the first school uniform, and so on.  But if you lack the patience, then you are doing the right thing.  Personally, I love being a parent, and do not need to delude myself about anything - I enjoy every moment with my child.

      And you are right, elcee, I should not judge.  I do not mean that your lives are full of misery, just that there is a type of joy that you will never tap into, and that you are missing out.  That is why some parents look at childless people a little funny - because you have no idea what true happiness is if lying in a bed is the “embodiment of joy” - in no way does it compare to holding a baby that you helped to make.  You are both right though, in that some parents like to judge, but I try my best not to be one of those.  I do not imagine that my child is perfect - no one is - but she is mine.  Again, this is like trying to explain colour to a blind person really - your brain is not equipped to understand.  Parenthood is not something you can understand until it happens to you.

    • Anne says:

      05:26pm | 09/02/10

      @Working married parent of 2 - thank you for your honesty. You are not the first parent I have encountered who has said that. One older friend of mine told me that as much as she loves her daughters, if she had her time over again she would not have children - and she most certainly wouldn’t have married.  And you would not believe the number of older women (I’m talking the Nana generation) who say that if they had had the opportunities women have today, they most definitely wouldn’t have settled for marriage and kids! @James, I’m sorry if this offends you, but not everyone feels the same as you do. I think it’s great that you love being a dad so much, but please don’t criticise others who are honest enough to admit that they wish they hadn’t had kids - or those of us who have chosen not to have them at all.

    • cats says:

      06:05pm | 09/02/10

      I can’t believe you would think about your kids like that. I hope your wife divorces you and takes the kids away to live with a real father. Yes, i am well aware that i am assuming that you’re a man because of stereotypes.

    • James says:

      06:57pm | 09/02/10

      Not offended at all Anne.  I retracted my judgements of W_M_P_o_2 below, but the comment got attached to something irrelevant.  Indeed, her response to my original comment was a much needed reality check for me.  The thing I find offensive are attitudes like that of Barx - that all kids are awful - and especially when speaking from a position of complete ignorance of what having a child is like.  And if you choose not to have kids, its no matter at all - you won’t even know what your missing, and that is really no loss at all, when you think about it.

    • Rebecca says:

      11:30am | 10/02/10

      Barx: obviously your idea of ‘the embodiment of joy’ is very self centered.

    • Zeta says:

      11:48am | 08/02/10

      If there wasn’t so much pressure on people to mate for life, this problem would have solved itself. Women feel they need to choose a partner that will satisfy them for all seasons. So do men for that matter, the serious, ‘planning ahead types’ that is. From a man’s perspective, you think, ‘well, the 19 year old hairdresser I’m seeing now sure loves to party and is so hot she makes your eyes bleed, but will she look after me when I’m old and senile and need my man nappy changed?’ The answer is usually no. So they’re off the list, and in doing so, we reject the parts of ourselves that legitimately want fun, attractive women. Women do this too. We reject what’s good for us now but bad for us then in favour of things that are average all the time. Some dudes don’t think like this, and they’re either stuck as manchidlren for the rest of their lives, or else have to play NRL. Because the rest of society won’t let you take what you want when it’s good for you.

      It’s not a rejection of monogamy I’m talking about, since I think we should only have one partner at a time unless both partners agree on bringing in a third, fourth or fifth partner (and only then if the rules are clearly laid out and no one gets weird about it later, which is why you should go with professionals if that’s your thing). It’s more an admission that humans, strange, shoe-wearing viruses that we are, evolve, and what was perfect for us at 21, won’t be at 33, and it definetly won’t be at 55 unless you’re really kidding yourself. So we lie to ourselves about it. Constantly.

      Occassionaly you get lucky, sure. You meet someone who evolves with you, and you’re like a symbiotic human virus that gets better as you grow together. That’s what I tell my partner anyway ‘kitten, you and me, we’re like a polydnavirus, you’re the ichnovirus and I’m the bracovirus and together, we’re multiple segments of double-stranded, superhelical DNA packaged in capsid proteins and a double layer envelope.’ Then she throws something at me, and I know it’s forever man.

      But until that happens, we should, as a society, encourage hooking up with what ever’s good for us right there and then. It’s not fair to repress those needs because it just hurts those around us.

    • Jezza says:

      02:52pm | 08/02/10

      Zeta you make some great observations here. I got taken in by a man who “loved” me but in fact “needed” me to prop him up. My life revolved making sure he was OK until several kids & 16 years later I stopped propping him up. He fell over & so did the marriage. My own needs had to suppressed in order that I let him suck my energy from me, & I became very frustrated by this. It took me a long time to work out what was happening.  But I still think that loving another human being to the point of marrying them will always involve a complex mix of each other having neediness & many other psycho-drama’s….because we are ALL walking psycho-drama’s of some sort or another.

    • Anon says:

      11:56am | 08/02/10

      If I’ve learned one thing about being married it is this:

      A persons promises mean nothing. Above all else they will be true to themselves and their own beliefs. A person may promise you the world but if their promises don’t match with their own self interest they’ll break those promises in a heart beat. So marry someone who believes in loyalty, trust, respect, commitment and sacrifice.

      They will be working on their own best interest (keeping the marriage they believe in) by doing things that they don’t necessary feel like doing because it will get them their more important goal.

      As men we are told “Happy wife means happy life”. The point being a man who looks after his wife will have a wife that looks after him. This focuses on the important things - loyalty, trust, respect, commitment and sacrifice.

      Consider -  a person who believes in love (above loyalty, trust, respect, commitment and sacrifice) is only going to be a “partner” so long as they are ‘in love’. If that “feeling” changes then they have no further obligation to do anything.

      Compare this to a person who believes in loyalty, trust, respect, commitment and sacrifice (above love) is going to be a “partner” so long as they have loyalty, trust, respect, commitment and sacrifice.  A person who values those things is hardly going to give them up in themselves, as such they are going to stay true to those virtues so long as they believe in them.

    • JJJ says:

      01:01pm | 08/02/10

      @ Anon. Wow. That is an incredible idea. Thanks. What do you think about people who stay in a marriage after the love is gone, however? Is it better or worse to stay in a marriage when the love is gone?

    • James says:

      01:52pm | 08/02/10

      Yeah, sorry W_M_P_o_2.  I hadn’t taken such factors into account - I should not be so quick to go right ahead and judge others.

      Thanks for that much needed reality check - just because I love my life does not mean everyone else has it so easy.

    • Some chick says:

      03:58pm | 08/02/10

      Totally agree. In short, marry your best friend. It works for me.

    • AdamC says:

      12:14pm | 08/02/10

      I don’t presume to know what every woman wants out of life and have no doubt that, for many women, marriage and kids are not at the top of the list.

      That doesn’t mean I can’t advise a woman for whom such things are important that it is best to get started before she reaches her mid-thirties. It is common sense. The longer she leaves it, the harder it will be both to find a suitable husband and successfully conceive and deliver children.

      I don’t see how a book (which I stress, I haven’t read) can be at all controversial when it states the bleeding obvious. If you are a woman, want to get married, have kids and are post-thirty, it is time to step on the accelerator. If that means ‘settling’ for a guy who doesn’t tick off every requirement on the laundry list, then so be it.

    • stephen says:

      12:23pm | 08/02/10

      Well I know from my personal experience there is no better life than being not married. I get to sleep in on weekends, do not have to put up with mother in laws and other members of the extended family, spend countless hours attending birthdays and other boring functions. Its great, I never had the ‘married’ gene. Now don’t get me wrong I love women and the new relationship period is great, lots of 1 on 1 time. But once the baby/marriage talk kicks in I am out of there. Why the hell do I want to spend the rest of my life a slave to offspring, so they can take care of me when I am older ? Now that would be selfish of me !

    • James says:

      12:27pm | 08/02/10

      You know from personal experience?  How many children do you have exactly?  If the answer is none, then you have no idea at all what it is to be a parent.

    • Mickey says:

      01:23pm | 08/02/10

      you are in for some very sad senior years if you cant see what people gain emotionally from their partners and children. Yeah, there is some work involved, but the returns on that investment pay dividends for the rest of your life. “Slave to offspring”,“Lots of one on one time”. Those statements shows how much you have to learn.
        Obviously you are too selfish and or childish to be a parent so you’ve probably made the right choice not to inflict yourself on a wife and children.

    • Barx says:

      04:33pm | 08/02/10

      Agreed - read my post above. And who says your kids will look after you? Nowadays they’re likely to dump you in a nursing home the first time you forget where your keys are, and take power of attorney over your money and assets!!!

    • Colleen A says:

      12:26pm | 08/02/10

      I once heard a very wise 60 year old single lady say: “To all the single women who are desperate to be married, let me tell you this. You may feel like you are lonely now but there is no one so lonely as an unhappily married woman.”
      Being married does not automatically bring fulfillment….only being happily married brings fulfillment

    • happyinmyownskin says:

      12:28pm | 08/02/10

      Stop taking advice from others! The sooner you do this, the sooner you’ll listen to your own instincts. Put down the magazines (and thinking that a baby makes everything so wonderful) , turn off the telly (and stop watching Oprah for relationship advice), put down the trashy relationship books, and just listen to your partner for once. Chances are they might be more ‘inspiring’ than you have been brainwashed to think. No one knows your relationship, and no one can judge; especially from the pages of a book.

    • Blackadder says:

      12:42pm | 08/02/10

      It’s an interesting concept. My priorities in life, as a bloke, was to complete my studies, find a job role I could settle down into, and then look to settle down into a family life, with wife, house and kids. The old cliche of priorities, but something I personally was comfortable with.

      I was in my early 20’s - having completed Uni and quickly settling into working life - when I starting considering finding a life partner.

      The person I ended up settling down with was a female turning 30 at the time, who’d had her wild single days (her comment), had started in a career, and then decided to settle down once well into that career. She’s considerably older than me. We’ve now been married 15 years.

      Studies can raise many conclusions, but in my case, and what I’ve experienced, women these days tend to not only want to finish study and start a job, but spend many years establishing themselves, and immersing themselves in, and singly focusing on, that job/career. Only then, do they look to settle down. Blokes tend to consider settling at a much earlier period in their lives. As a bloke, it was very frustrating trying to find a partner around my own age, wanting to settle down. It just wasn’t going to happen.

      You can’t categorically state that the “good ones are all taken” at age 30, but it would be a fair comment - perhaps even common sense - to state that the longer you delay, the longer it will take to find that one special person - irrespective of whether you are male or female. And to me, the longer it takes or the longer you wait, then again, common sense would indicate that there would have to be more to comprise on the traits that comprise the individual’s perception of the “perfect partner”.

    • dw says:

      12:43pm | 08/02/10

      at my workplace this subject was part of the daily banter for the 20-30 somethings. Amazingly many of the young ladies had a well defined, complex set of criteria that their future soul mate needed to possess. The list often contained traits and behaviours that my colleagues had failed to display themselves.
      I remember one girl saying that she was considering ending her current relationship because she needed her ‘man to be patient and understanding’. It sounded like his only major flaw. I suggested that, at 23, perhaps he was still developing that part of himself. Her reply: “I can’t wait around for him to learn patience”.
      You get what you deserve.

    • Davo says:

      12:47pm | 08/02/10

      Poor, poor ladies. My wife got Mr OH YEAH

    • nsw says:

      01:39pm | 08/02/10

      I agree that no-one should settle, the person you chose to marry is the biggest decision you’ll ever make.  If you aren’t 100% sure, then it’s best to stay single.  There is nothing wrong with being single.  I also agree happiness does not depend on marriage or kids, sometimes life has other plans or you just don’t want all of that. 

      I don’t agree that marriage though is just a piece of paper and a party.  I think it’s that kind of thinking that has some people not taking it seriously enough when they do walk down the aisle and then when times get tough, they end it because it’s not like you made any big commitments.  You don’t have to spend $10k if you don’t want to, you make your wedding as big or as small and intimate as you like.  Marriage is not the same as just ‘dating’ ... I know legally that after so many years of being in a de facto relationship it’s the same but to me, in my opinion, marriage is about taking the relationship to the ultimate level and saying for the rest of our lives we commit to standing by one another through thick and thin, it’s about two separate lives becoming one. Taking his name is all about your other self stopping and becoming one family together so that you both and any potential kids have a solid foundation as a united team to build on.

      People that don’t marry will argue that they also agree to spend the rest of their life with that other person but to me, anyone can just ‘say’ that ... it’s another thing to stand up there in front of those you love and declare it emotionally and legally.  It changes things.

    • Old bag says:

      10:26am | 09/02/10

      I was willing to entertain your point of view (although disagreeing with it) until you referred to changing your name on marriage. That is just a sad archaic remnant of the “women as livestock” paradigm.

      Why *should* women cede their identities on marriage?

    • davi says:

      01:00pm | 08/02/10

      “Pay the people who chose NOT to breed ‘cause they are doing the environment a favour.” from JJJ

      I applaud you for putting this out there (and the NZ politician who brought this to the medias attention deserves a pat on the back too) , they should be offering people a bonus if they decide to get sterilised. 
      There would be more than a few who got pregnant to get the baby bonus and they are exactly the type of people who should be stopped from breeding.  They (the ones who just should not breed) are more often than not the highest consumers of packaged goods and depend on tax payer’s money to fund their lifestyle.  They smoke, drink, gamble put there kids in childcare (funded by the tax payer), feed the kids crap food (which is packaged to the extreme), then have medical problems etc etc etc., 
      These people should not breed, give them ten grand and they would be so thrilled. 
      Of course this sterilisation bonus would be offered to all, and I suspect there would be many many people from all walks of life who would go forth and be sterilised. 

      Getting married and having children is not everything to everyone.  It would be beneficial if society saw and acknowledged the achievements of single people. Rather than making news out of who just got married then separated etc.. Basically let people be out and proud about being heterosexual, single and childless out of choice and loving it.

    • Evie says:

      01:09pm | 08/02/10

      Nice piece Judith. I am a 20-something who views marriage with suspician and confusion. What’s in it for me? I don’t need a white dress and a $10 000 bill to live happily ever after. Sure it might be a good excuse for a party and a neat legal convenience, but that’s it.

    • Anon says:

      04:36pm | 08/02/10

      “What’s in it for me?”

      I think that really sums up the issue nicely. Too many people are more interested in what they can get out of marriage than what they are willing to put into marriage.

    • Working married parent of 2 says:

      01:22pm | 08/02/10

      To James - Things get complicated when you have more than one child. Everyone competes for their share. If you have a partner who is lazy, self-obsessed, and not interested in the children, then often the burden falls onto one person to try and make it all work (ie. the family unit). I know lots of people in this situation. Reality check.
      I’m glad that your life is so fantastic. Keep reading your Hallmark cards and enjoy your situation while it lasts.

    • Barx says:

      04:35pm | 08/02/10

      Totally agreed - I really feel for you WMPof2

    • SM says:

      01:27pm | 08/02/10

      Too many silly, deluded girls who think their life is actually like Sex and The City, and a lot of guys who simply have no interest in the supposed standards and criteria that these girls have

    • bec says:

      01:40pm | 08/02/10

      Your wife married the Kool Aid mascot? OH YEAH.

    • Tonks says:

      01:45pm | 08/02/10

      Whilst I disagree with the notion that all women want to do is get married and have children, I do agree with the idea that women tend to.. overromanticise the idea of a relationship. Life is not a Meg Ryan movie! Movies and films have made women believe that love is all about grand romantic gestures, and having Mr Perfect (who speaks three languages, plays a musical instrument, is witty, funny, handsome and so on) sweep you off your feet.

      I don’t think it’s about settling, I think it’s about readjusting what you’re looking for in a man. A good guy, who you are attracted to physically and with whom you share common interests and similar goals, is totally fine.

    • Ross says:

      01:47pm | 08/02/10

      This false “empowerment” of women would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.  Most are single not because of a man drought (which is just a convenient excuse to salvage an inflated ego) but because decent (i.e. non-deadbeat) men want nothing to do with them!  Decent men want nothing to do with them since these same women used to ignore them during their mis-spent youth so that they could date losers and deadbeats. What goes around comes around. Don’t write off nice guys in favour of deadbeats and then expect the nice guys to still be there waiting for you when the relationship meets its inevitable demise.  Whether you face it or not, guys are simply sick of it and want nothing to do with you.

    • E says:

      02:30pm | 08/02/10

      good comment Ross, I would add that the ‘relationship skills’ women use when they are younger with deadbeat ‘badboy’ losers are no use on an intelligent and self confident man who might be capable of a more sophisticated relationship than shagging and lying about giving a damn about the poor poppet.
      I still occasionally get women begging me for stuff, batting their eyelids, flashing their cleavage and wondering why I laugh in their faces. They invariably go cling to some lower status male and make the unspoken trade of sex for food while looking daggers at they guys who think they are a complete joke.

    • Marco says:

      04:30pm | 08/02/10

      +1 in agreement Ross

      I am a happy bachelor ,financially secure , a house with no mortgage , educated and have lifestyle—last thing it want is some misandristic tattooed ex party girl 30 something harpie who was used abused thrown away and now hates her self for giving it up to so many for so long in her twenties in my life to make it a misery.

    • Barx says:

      04:40pm | 08/02/10

      @Ross - totally agreed. There are a plethora of women who skanked around in their teens and twenties and who’ve now got nothing to show for it other than a truckload of baggage and a list of sexual partners as long as your arm.

      The decent chicks were there putting in the hard yards and contributing towards building something real.

      The Lily Allen song ‘22’ comes to mind.

    • bec says:

      07:12pm | 08/02/10

      Hey, just a hint from someone in their early twenties who hasn’t skanked it up: we don’t someone who is contemptuous of us and treats us with disdain. Pat yourselves on the backs, but you won’t find the decent ladies because we found people who were less of a waste of oxygen than you.

      I’m not a perfect person and I’ve eaten my fair share of food off the ground, but I deserve better than some misanthropic jock who has replaced personality with possession and ego, and I found him. I hope you enjoy dying alone, though.

    • Ben says:

      09:04am | 09/02/10

      You’re nasty Bec.  Plain and simple.

    • Anon says:

      01:53pm | 08/02/10

      What is the difference between “trusting, respecting, being committed to and willing to make sacrifices for” a person and loving a person?

      Given the choice I would choose a partner from the former category than the later.

      As for staying in marriage when the love is gone - that depends on the people.

      If you wish to avoid behaviour that brings into question your loyalty, trust, respect, commitment and sacrifice - choose to behave in the way that is most consistent with the promises that you made.

      If loyalty is important to you, remain loyal.
      If trust is important, continue to demonstrate that you are worthy of trust.
      If respect is important, show respect.
      if commitment is important, remain committed.
      If sacrifice is important, make sacrifices.

      If those things are not important, end the relationship - break that promise of remaining together for life and just remember, even if no one else does, you chose to turn your back on the things that you think are important.

      Personally I wouldn’t be able to look at myself in the mirror if I turned aside from those values that I hold above all else - but that’s just me.

      If you are married for love -  when the love is gone, what is left?

    • rob says:

      01:56pm | 08/02/10

      I find it all a bit strange to be so concerned with what the opposite sex thinks. Dont get me wrong; I’m all in favour of being considerate, but why would I tie myself up in knots about my many imperfections?

      My view (btw I’m married with 2 kids) is pretty simple - be yourself. Dont pretend to be something you’re not.

      And be honest. So many people say things because they THINK this is what they’re supposed to say, when what they really want is something completely different.

      And finally, dont be afraid to talk. People (thats BOTH men and women) arent mind readers.

      So much more could be written, but I think it helps to start with the basics?

    • Carries Sneaking Suspicion of Failure says:

      01:58pm | 08/02/10

      Awwww tiddums, the Sex & The City generation of females done got passed-by by the male sex.  So tragic… ho-hum! Truth is (and let’s be blisteringly honest here) if you’re a female who ‘settles’ then you are a ‘loser’.  Superior females end up with superior mates, simple as that (it’s Darwinism baby, pure and SIMPLE!).  This is the crushing moment when the S&TC; generation realise that no, you are not all Carrie and most of you will be lucky to catch a whiff of a Mr Big’s aftershave (let alone date any such male).  Must hurt, doesn’t it?  Do you want a hankie, there there… dry your tears.  Hey, don’t worry, just tell yourself, you love being single, tell yourself you’re a proud confident, intelligent young woman and that you’re totally unappreciated by those ‘slovenly men’ then you too can ‘take pity’ on one of the weaker ones and ‘lift him up’ to your standards by ‘settling’.  You know, we lived a lie before, we can do it again!  Bwahahaahah! Life ladies is like High School, you were the girl who wasn’t attractive enough, not well liked enough, didn’t make enough of an impression etc and that’s how you’ll stay (your feelings of superiority don’t ‘actually’ make you superior they’re just ‘feelings’).  Adios (see you and your sad and lonely friends trawling bars desperately publicly seeking male attention - but being proud of your single status, oh so PROUD)!

    • Anne says:

      05:41pm | 09/02/10

      @Carrie - I’m guessing you’re actually a man behind that ridiculous pseudonym. And I’m guessing you’ve been shot down in flames once too often, hence that bitter and venomous little soliloquy of yours. Here’s something for you to consider - it’s not always the other person’s fault. Have a think about that - and get some counselling while you’re at it because it sounds like you really need it!

    • E says:

      02:00pm | 08/02/10

      Emotions are short term chemical reactions in the brain which caused pre-conscious human beings to mate. Generally if a pair werent having children within 3-18 months of having sex, there was a reproductive issue, which is the cause for the feeling fading within 3-18 months. Childrens arrival cause maternal instincts to over ride the feelings of love for her man and focus on the children (for good evolutionary reasons) not the least of which is that men tended to die by sabre tooth tiger or rival tribes. Usually both parties were dead before 20 and so never reached the end of their reproductive lives, rinse repeat.
      Modern ideas of romantic love were invented in the 19th century to coerce increasingly independent women to give up their rights (and property) in the marriage certificate, based on the lie that the hormonal high of new love would be everlasting. Social pressure and lack of options preserved the marriage after they inevitably faded.
      What the hell was this article about?

    • Could be worse. says:

      02:20pm | 08/02/10

      Should women accept a guy who’s just good enough? May-be it would be better to do it the Iraqy way. Men are the boss, have many wives if they choose to.  Woman must cover themselves completely otherwise they being disobedient and asking to be rapped, hence must be stoned to death.  Men are not guilty of rape they are within their law/religion and added to that, if a man bullies of attacks his wife causing grievous bodily harm perhaps causing death he is is his rights to do so.  No I for one much prefer that the females gender not settle for ‘a guy that is not quite it but seems to be just good’. enough

    • Naomi says:

      02:21pm | 08/02/10

      It’s not that every girl desperately wants to be married.

      However it is that if you’re the kind of girl who wants a child “one day”, well every year past 35 that’s less likely to happen.  You have a window of about 10-15 years (from 25 to 40) to find someone who’s willing to help you conceive naturally (and ideally stick around and raise the child with you).

      I don’t have any maternal urges, nor do I feel my biological clock ticking (I’m in my mid 20s), but because I know I want a child one day, I know that once I hit the age of 30 I have to think seriously about settling down with someone who will be a good father even if they’re not fairytale handsome with fireworks exploding in the background (as I’m likely to be one of those women that will hit 45, suddenly decide I want a child, and realise that I’ve left it to late to experience pregnancy).

    • E says:

      02:57pm | 08/02/10

      who the hell would agree to that? Thats so emblematic of the ridiculous selfishness of some girls, that you somehow think just by magic theres going to be a good provider who will settle for YOU!
      I gotta ask, whats so great about you?

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      02:30pm | 08/02/10

      Personally, I’m just after a serotonin hit…...

    • Steve says:

      02:35pm | 08/02/10

      Women don’t want kids, I think many want to be beaten up.  I don’t think too many woman stay with a man for the right reasons.  If they did, the moment a guy hits them they’d leave wouldn’t they.  But so many stay because of that *spark* what a croc!  Mr ‘Good enough’ is always better than Mr ‘Lazy, don’t love ya, but at least there’s a Spark’...  I have lots of Male friends who would never hit a girl and can’t get/keep a relationship.  But ALL the blokes who beat girls don’t have a problem at all.  It’s the reverse for my Female friends, they leave sensable guys who pay the bills, work hard and love them to death only because they’re not “man enough”  yet they’ll stay with an Unemployed, lazy, smart ass who often beat them up because they Love the guy and there’s a spark…  The whole world is going to hell with the accelerator stuck to the floor!  What will this do for human evolution?  I’d hate to think.

    • ?? says:

      05:42pm | 08/02/10

      there are also perfectly good men who have done everything for their wives, yet they are divorced in favour of dating losers that use and abuse them. i dont get what is going on with their sanity ??????

    • happy says:

      06:12pm | 09/02/10

      not me, i’ve been with my boyfriend for 1 1/2 years and he treats me like a princess. He buys me gifts when i’m sad, shares housework with me, cooks dinner with me. I want to marry him one day. You must just be friends with stupid girls.

    • E says:

      02:59pm | 08/02/10

      Steve, those are the evolutionary choices which got us here, women are emotionally pre-programmed to go for the biggest most violent guy in the room, and they call this chemical attraction ‘love’. Its basically poor education, women are told to follow their emotions, and wonder why they end up living like apes.

    • Robert Smissen says:

      05:08pm | 08/02/10

      RUBBISH! ! ! E where did you get these ideas from. I have female friends who are extremely gifted academically, work in high power jobs, but when it comes to blokes, their brains desert them. I have come to the conclusion that it is very like driving a car, traveling at the speed limit is safe, but oh so BORING! ! Whereas driving at 200kph is dangerous, but VERY EXCITING ! ! It is just the same as blokes, nice stable blokes are OK but boring! ! @ssholes are dangerous but exciting. Princesses you get the bloke you deserve, GET OVER IT ! !

    • Shan says:

      03:01pm | 08/02/10

      All the title of this book (because I haven’t read it yet) and all the statistics you’ve sprouted say to me is that there are many more than one-side to the argument. The only relationship advice I’d give anyone is find what works for you ... if that means you both go into a relationship with eyes wide open just “liking” each other or finding each other an “acceptable companion” then good for you because if you’re willing to work together to achieve the goals you want to achieve in life then love will grow.

      On the other side if you need that wildfire that is the burning desire of an all consuming passion for someone else then just remember that something like this will burn hot and cold and you’ll probably have to work together to get through the more chilly times.

      My thoughts are you should love someone who helps you be a better version of yourself and that contentment is a sorely underated commodity

    • greg says:

      03:01pm | 08/02/10

      It comes back to the same old thing. With the advent of the sexual revolution and the pill women have been able to more free with their sexual favours. This has resulted in the old system of men and women bonding breaking down. In many cases men an women no longer spend enough time together to form a bond. Women and men can both follow the dictum of why buy a book when you can join a library.

    • Lisa says:

      03:09pm | 08/02/10

      Generally women wait for the man to propose.
      I would have ‘settled’ with any man I was intimately involved with. Which is why I was happy to accept my husband’s proposal the first moment he asked.
      He loves me to bits, and we are honestly really happy together. I’m glad he was generous enough to propose, it means a lot to me, even now, that he did.
      If you are prepared to open yiourself to the ongoing risk of conceiving a baby with someone, surely that person is ‘good enough’ and you should be prepared to live a life with them! Bit of generosity and optimism is really all that you need to have a happy marriage, if your character is decent to start with.

    • Steve says:

      03:48pm | 08/02/10

      Compared to men, women to me have always represented an overpriced market commodity, one which I simply cannot afford to entertain, so I’m staying with the safe bet….men wink

    • DJ says:

      04:07pm | 08/02/10

      They are alone because the majority still cling to the dream of being a Mosman Mum. All Sydney women care about is your wallet,income,house by the harbour, Q7 in the garage and how many shopping holidays overseas they can expect per year.

    • A chick says:

      04:15pm | 08/02/10

      Well there’s many problems with females and I speak as a female. Firstly, females expect a lot and a lot them are simply are not up to scratch. Sorry to say this. In order to attract a quality partner, you have to be a quality person yourself. By this, I mean you have to have qualities mentioned above in some posts like integrity, kindness, dedication, loyalty etc. A lot of women are not like this. A lot of men are not like this as well. However, they are selfish enough to expect their partner to be models of perfection.

      Women fall in love with “romantic love” concepts. Women also are easily influenced by their friends and media portrayal of what love is. Women watch too much rubbish like SATC. When you involve yourself in someone, look CAREFULLY to the qualities and what compatibilities you have. See how compatible you are in your life goals. By this I mean, can this person extend you in personal growth sense, not necessarily a money sense. And again, don’t chase status and use that as a back-up for yourself if you have either poor self-esteem and use their status to improve it. It won’t work. Many women mislead themselves into thinking that a rich guy or some cool dude is enough for them to succeed. Choose a partner you can build a life with together and choose a partner that is your best friend.

    • bec says:

      07:05pm | 08/02/10

      Hi. Listen, the self-hate thing is good and all, but you don’t need to speak to the rest of us ladies as if we’re eight year olds. Maybe the reason you don’t think much of your own gender is because you attract blithering idiots (and having read that, I think it might be a like-attracts-like scenario with that), but plenty of us happen to have the right set of criteria for meeting a life partner. Maybe if you stopped hanging out with shallow tools then you’d figure it out.

    • Some chick says:

      09:44am | 09/02/10

      Actually I’m very selective with who I choose to hang out with both socially and in relationships and I’ve done well. I’m married to a great guy and have good friends. Thankfully I am astute at sizing up others. What I’m saying is that OTHER people (men and women) settle for tools and can be tools themselves. Like attracts like.

      I don’t think there is a perfect person out there for anyone, “the one”, this concept of “best” is silly. What I do believe is that there are a bunch of great people out there, male or female, who could be highly compatible with you and that people should also keep their minds open and act with good faith with a bit of selection and caution.

    • Davido says:

      04:19pm | 08/02/10

      Why not? Men have to settle all the time.

    • Debs says:

      04:42pm | 08/02/10

      The perfect man doesnt exist, so you can either settle for someone who you can put up with for the rest of your life, or be alone.  After 10 years with my partner Im thinking I made the wrong choice

    • Robert Smissen says:

      11:30pm | 08/02/10

      So Deb, are you saying that whilst he/she isn’t perfect, you are? ? ? I hope he leaves you & finds a nicer woman that deserves him, you obviously don’t! !

    • Some single girl says:

      05:02pm | 08/02/10

      Although the writer of this review makes a good point, the language around the issue is still very much in the 1950s.  Why not childfree rather than childless?

    • Robert Smissen says:

      05:16pm | 08/02/10

      Point #1 Lori Gottleib wrote a book to SELL ! ! #2 It doesn’t sound as though Ms. Gottleib has had a lot of experience with MEN #3 It would appear that Ms Gottleib assume that all women are “wonderful princesses” & that No man will measure up to them, maybe just maybe they have both been examined & found wanting by the very people that they want.

    • Von says:

      06:10pm | 08/02/10

      The problem is, not that women are waiting for Mr Right but they are waiting for Mr Perfect. Guess what? You’re not perfect. Since you aren’t perfect, you must accept that your man may not be perfect either. You need to take the good with the bad. It comes in a package. The most important thing is to make sure your values and goals match up and the rest is up to what you do next.

    • Julian Thomas says:

      06:33pm | 08/02/10

      there is no man drought

      play sevens,

      men 1 alpha 2 gays or bi 4 losers

      women 2 alpha 1 gay 3 losers,

      but the 5 straight women are gunning

      for the one alpha bloke in general

    • Heather says:

      06:53pm | 08/02/10

      I’m just surprised there aren’t more gay and lesbian people, because by the looks of it, there’s a lot of men/women haters out there! Fact is, marriage is good for some, crap for others. You get out of it what you put in. I’m married, no kids and not having any, 3 stepkids. Yeah sometimes it’s tough, but I’d sooner have my quiet, stay at home, slighly anal about finances husband than any other. Yes he’s fairly uncomplex and predictable, but I’m so over being hurt and let down by ‘bad boys’. Sometimes the grass on the other side may be greener, but there’s often a big nasty fence you have to climb over to get there. There’s a lot of shallow, gold digging women out there, but there’s also a lot of genuine hard working women who want a true partnership. There’s also a lot of scumbag blokes too who treat their ‘missus’ like crap and leave all the hard work up to them. There’s also a lot of really nice guys like my husband who contribute and work towards the success of our marriage. The secret is to not take each other for granted. The hard part is finding that decent man or woman amongst the throngs of arse-clowns and princesses. I know I’m on a good thing and I’m going to stick with it. I don’t hold any romantic illusions about love, hell I even insisted on a registry office wedding with no reception!

    • Anon says:

      03:56pm | 09/02/10

      “You get out of it what you put in.” - Not quite. You get out what your partner puts in. If they don’t put in any effort (because they don’t care or whatever other reason comes to mind) then you will get nothing back no matter how hard you try. There is no guarantee that they will respond to your efforts - they may well just choose to take what they can get.

    • Ollie says:

      10:35pm | 08/02/10

      As Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young once said,  “If you can’t be with the one you love, then love the one you’re with”

    • Robert Smissen says:

      11:31pm | 08/02/10

      I have come to the conclusion that women want to have a wedding but don’t want to be married.

    • sam says:

      12:04am | 09/02/10

      It would be interesting to see how the world would turn out if most of the population had the same beliefs as many of the writers here. No marriage, no children. It would be great for the planet for sure - less impact on the environment etc - humans would probably die out.  But as Australia is facing an aging population, it is the children we are having now that will help pay for those who did not plan so wisely in old age or simply had bad luck. When you are all old and frail, who would look after you? There wouldn’t be that many young working taxpayers to pay for all of those benefits and old age pension schemes, there would be a shortage of people working in hospitals, old age pensioners homes, shops, etc. Then if you think about it, the other cultures that believe that children are your wealth would basically rise in the ranks, we’d certainly have to rethink immigration because hell no one wants kids and think they are just a burden just to make up our aging and declining population.

    • Sam says:

      12:23am | 09/02/10

      I agree though that men and women are unrealistic in their wants. I do agree that it is the media that has caused this and people are prone to unrealistic expectations. To be honest, there is no one that is perfect, and the partner we should choose is one whose flaws we can live with the best.  When I married, the guy I married was perfect for me at that time (and touch wood, still is) - but I take it day by day, as you cannot and you never should take any relationship for granted and set in concrete.  As humans we all change in time, and sometimes we grow apart. Expect arguments. Expect misunderstandings. Expect not always getting your own way. Expect compromises. Expect mutual respect and support. Be realistic!
      Children, well each to their own. If you don’t want kids it is probably mother nature limiting the numbers being born. It is nice to have the choice, imagine if we were dying out and it was law that we have to have kids.
      If you are single and fancy free - enjoy it as much as possible, you might fall in love one day and boom you’ll regret not traveling to that country or doing so many things. It can surprise you like that!

    • john doe says:

      01:45am | 09/02/10

      I’ve kinda given up on women. It’s what you are that cause’s female attraction, not who you are. This means women are incapable of loving their male partners. They are only emotional ride seekers, once the ride is over, they take a walk. They lack platonic love. Men have it but have nobody to give it to, as it please’s no woman. They only thing a man can do is please his sexual desires, become the juan don. So called love is utterly impossible with a women. She loves what you are, not who you are.

    • Joe says:

      06:25am | 09/02/10

      Love is a decision not a feeling. Once the initial emotion wares off you have to decide to love your spouse.

      As for those who would rather go out to dinner etc than have children, it is obvious you have never had any. You simply can’t explain how great it is to have a child to someone. Other peoles children don’t come close. There is nothing like the feeling you get when your little baby beams with pure joy just to see you. You can’t beat that kind of love.

    • James says:

      10:47am | 09/02/10

      As an example of this lack of understanding Joe, I find that when I discuss parental matters with childless people, they tend to compare the triumphs and failures of parenthood to their relationship with their pets!  If a person can not understand the difference between owning an animal, and fathering a child, their brains can not be wired the same way.  I am a firm believer that - for good parents at least - once their child is born, they view the world completely differently to how they did before, finding joy in new ways, and not quite seeing the point of their old lifestyle any more.

    • Tim says:

      04:55pm | 09/02/10

      Hilarious James,
      somehow you assume that your parental view of the world is correct.
      Isn’t it just as likely that your current world view is wrong, clouded by the fact that you now have a child?
      By all means love your child and your life, but don’t be so sanctimonious.
      You are not an objective observer.

    • Ben says:

      08:23am | 09/02/10

      Women (and gay men) are as bad as each other ... (almost) always looking for the next best thing. 
      Should a woman settle for a guy?  Get over yourself, for a start.  Anyone who thinks they are too good for some should stay single.

    • Marianne says:

      08:58am | 09/02/10

      Perhaps the issue isn’t that women are ‘too picky’, maybe men have simply become too unlikeable, with their cheating and lying and manipulating, just for the sake of getting laid, because that is all men care about these days, not like the gentlemen of 20-30 years ago (or longer).

      I wouldn’t blame any woman who chose to stay single with today’s selection of men. I found one myself, but I got lucky and found one who is decent, if I wasn’t with said man I would still be single, and ejoying it. If said man engages in typical male activities I will again be single, and I would intend to stay single, because I wouldn’t believe the amount of decent men out there is high enough to make it likely for me to find one a second time.

    • Joe says:

      11:35am | 09/02/10

      And here on the Punch a few days ago we had a rambling article saying how great it was that older women were going out and getting young men and sleeping around. How can we hold men to task if women start celebrating such lower standards, not valuing their own worth?

    • detritus says:

      09:37am | 09/02/10

      All these articles always detail “mature, sassy, beautiful” women having a shopping list of attributes that they want in a partner.

      But in these articles they continually fail to say or consider what they intend to bring to a relationship, or even understand what a relationship is actually about.

      They better like cats.

    • Doug says:

      09:58am | 09/02/10

      Provocative story but the university ‘research’ disturbs me more. As a man, can I say marriage and children have always been priorities for me, supported by an interesting career. And the kids are our pride and joy - we don’t holiday or eat out or whatever without taking them along. Now that they’re 18 and 14 we give them the option of not coming if that’s what they really want but mostly we do stuff together. And we eat, watch tv, relax , look after one another and laugh together. To those Harvard and Syracuse ‘researchers’ who ffound that children had a negative impact on marital happiness, I say their research is clearly flawed or misinterpreted and just possibly some of those ‘parents’ don’t actually understand or appreciate their parental roles.  I was happy before I was married and before we had kids but I can say I’ve never been happier than when I scaled both of those achievements. They make life worth living. Sorry, but that ‘research’ just misses the point and the joys of marriage and parenting done properly.

    • Daddy's girl says:

      10:19am | 09/02/10

      Totally agree with you Ben. What makes her think she was better than all the blokes she tossed aside in the first place. The fact that she consideres guys who have given her time of day as “not good enough” highlights the fact that she really can only ever be in love with herself.

      Why is everyone looking for the perfect partner, instead of actually being the perfect partner. Today people are spending so much time judging the qualities and attributes of others instead of spending time looking at themselves and how they can be better people and maybe just be NICE!

      Love is the easiest thing in the world, and I have never understood why people say it is so hard. If it is hard then there is a reason and you move on. Until you are happy with yourself and don’t look to others to make-up for what you lack, then you can’t expect someone else to take that on.

      I know that if my boyfriend and I lost everything overnight, but still had eachother, that is all I need. If we didn’t have one another, yes we’d still be able to live life, but the real point is that we just don’t want to live life without eachother it’s that simple!

      I don’t expect everyone to ageree because everyone is different and I totally respect that. But I think repsecting others is where successful relationships start be it friendships, partnerships or any “ships”

    • Carl Palmer says:

      10:23am | 09/02/10

      No such thing as a perfect woman and there is no such thing as a perfect man. If you believe in that you need to relocate to Hollywood and if you do - good luck.

      If you accept the above proposition, then it comes down to tradeoffs.  What values / principles are non negotiable and what values / principles are you going to let slide. If closing the dunny seat is a non negotiable, then you may have a problem.

      The comment re children intruding into ones life style blew me away. It will take the rest of my life to work that out. However each to their own.

      Interestingly, I’m now looking at a quite a few unfulfilled folks yearning for that something / someone.  They lived “their” lives as they saw fit and now are “alone”. Oh well I guess you reap what you sow.

    • omegaman says:

      11:10pm | 09/02/10

      I am now a single guy and both my ex-wife and my girlfriend left me, not because they found out about each other (I had the girlfriend after the ex-wife) but because I did not earn enough money. That was 11 years of my life and I have always earned more than the ABS stated average income.

      Its pretty hard to take but in the end the egalitarian society I grew up in has destroyed itself. I am not anti-capitalist but the disparity in income and wealth is ridiculous and I am gagging for some massive event like 9/11 to change my life, maybe I will come out a post-apocalyptic winner? In the olden days a good old world war would provide me a second chance. Failing an event of some magnitude maybe a direct tax on private assets would level the playing field for us poor guys? Its not communism and its more like a meritocracy.

      Anyway back on the topic of why I can’t get a chick I think there are too many people on the planet anyway, the wrong ones always breed so maybe its best a huge portion of the good-looking ones have lots of casual sex and then just die out.

    • Sad but True says:

      11:00am | 10/02/10

      Omegaman, I am so sorry to hear about your gold-digging selfish ex wife and girlfriend. Sadly I agree with you that so many women these days are just after a meal ticket.

      I on the other hand have chosen a great man who is a hard working, honest and honourable member of our defence force. He’s never going to be wealthy but I am so happy with him I count my blessings everyday, because he’s got guts and is prepared to fight for something bigger than all of us. Not to mention the fact he’s sex as anything.

      I see so many of my girlfriends fawn all over and chase these ugly, wankers who flash their cash, who they wouldn’t look at twice if the weren’t rich, it is pathetic and sad and disgusting.

      There are a few nice girls out there and I hope you find one, but I think that it is less a fact of “all the good men are taken”: I know so many lovely, hot, single blokes that have had dated women who expect not love, but a lifestyle and they to be honest….are sick of it. It’s more the fact that there are so few decent women out there prepared not to sponge of their men.

      Generalisation, I know but seems to be the case, especially in Sydney.

    • James says:

      03:07pm | 10/02/10

      Geez I thought I was a bastard, the venom on this blog is melting my monitor.  Relationships are not a blood sport it is supposed to be the fun bit of life, would it kill you lot to be a bit nicer to each other.

 

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