In the mid 1990s the teachers credit union Satisfac came up with a kindly and seemingly innocent idea to celebrate the excellent work of its teacher members.

We're all winners: John Tiedemann's illustration in The Daily Telegraph.

The credit union, which historically had served teachers but like many other institutions now has a wide customer base, decided that to recognise the role of the teaching profession in its own development it would establish an annual awards event called The Best Teacher Awards.

But when the awards were initially proposed the reaction from the teachers union was one of outrage and dismay. Satisfac was told in no uncertain terms to shelve the idea, with the union arguing it was the height of impertinence for a credit union – or anyone else for that matter – to declare that some teachers were better than others.

This quaint Marxist view of the world has been on full display this past week as teachers unions around the country descend into apoplexy over the Rudd Government’s apparently wicked policy of letting parents know how their kids’ school compares to other like schools.

The unspoken backdrop to the unions’ long-standing hostility to any form of comparative rankings is, obviously, industrial self-interest.

The danger which a website such as MySchool presents to the union is that parents might start asking hard questions if they see that their school is performing well down the list of comparable schools. For the first time, this website provides the public with data that is so rich that it’s possible to discern a drop-off in certain years or certain subjects.

There could be several reasons for a decline in performance. It could be a funding shortfall, which can be sheeted home to the relevant state government or education department. It could be explained by a change in the profile of the students in a certain year. It could also be that one of the teachers is no good.

It’s this last point which the teaching unions object to the most. They have taken the all for one, one for all philosophy to such a ludicrous extent that they have made the profession less enticing for passionate people who might consider a career as an educator, if not for the fact that you will forever be held back in terms of both workload and remuneration by the non-performance of the minority of disengaged or dud teachers.

If the unions were intellectually honest, this website would be welcomed as a long-overdue vindication of the excellence of most public schools.

As the proud graduate of a public school, I’ve taken a perverse delight in monitoring the non-performance of some of the toffiest schools in the land, seeing nuggetty little public schools kicking the stuffing out of joints that charge several thousand dollars a term with an unchallenged promise of a better level of learning.

My School has shown that many parents are effectively being fleeced by this empty promise. They might get one of those nice triangular stickers for the back of the Range Rover, and young Angus might end up rubbing shoulders with a future front rower for the Wallabies, but if it’s reading and writing you’re after, you might do better to skip down the road to the local public school.

My School is not without flaws – we spent a couple of hours on it the other night, our child’s school, in Sydney, was compared to a school in Ballina, which at 739km away is a heck of a commute.

But the fixation on such glitches – which are inevitable and can be easily recognised by the average user anyway on a website of this size – is an obvious ploy by the teaching unions to undermine the credibility of the entire venture in a fruitless bid to shame the government into its withdrawal.

There’s one criticism levelled against the site which carries much more weight and which the Federal Government must take very seriously. Opposition education spokesman Chris Pyne is absolutely right when he says there is little point identifying systematic problems with the performance of a minority of teachers, without also giving principals the industrial power to act against them.

And to anyone who would say this is a teacher bashing exercise, it is not. It’s the polar opposite of one.

In the new age of transparency created by My School, it is logical and right to shift next to a discussion of performance pay. And it should have less to do with punishing the minority of bad teachers than giving greater reward and opportunity to the enormous pool of dedicated and brilliant teachers.

Thinking back to my school days I can only remember a couple of teachers who were so bad that they should have been frogmarched off the school grounds. They really should have been. There was one guy who seemed to be motivated by nothing other than a pathological dislike of young people. He would habitually tell kids at this largely working class school that they were so dim that they would be better off leaving immediately and going for an apprenticeship popping rivets at the nearby Mitsubishi factory.

And then there were teachers such as Anna Polias, an English teacher who would habitually write 10 or even 15 A4 pages of comments on your essays, stay back after school to organise extra-curricular stuff such as cycling days, bookshop visits into the city, where she would take us out to coffee, talk about politics and travel and our futures.

People such as Ms Polias represent the majority of teachers in the public system. She should have been paid half as much again as what she was earning; the fellow I mentioned before had no right to be in a schoolyard at all.

I suspect there are a lot of hard-working teachers who privately believe that things should change but are afraid to say so for being marginalised by the union crowd.

The most appropriate memento from my school days for illustrating this entrenched hostility towards assessment and ranking is the absurd trophy I “won” while playing Aussie Rules for the Under 13s. In keeping with the post-70s educational zeitgeist, it had been decreed that it was unfair to simply have a best and fairest and that, just like at the Easter Show, every player should win a prize. The humiliating gong I won read “Most Attentive at Training” but should really have been inscribed “Most Incompetent Back Pocket” or “Pea-hearted pretender who avoids the hard ball”. Rather than getting a pat on the head as a reward for my uselessness, the coach should have taken me aside and explained politely that I was to Aussie Rules what Gary Ablett was to romantic poetry, and pointed me in the direction of the library.

Pretending that everybody is doing quite well at almost everything is no way to prepare them for later life. And teaching is the one profession where the unions believe that this same bankrupt philosophy should apply to working adults.

57 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • angryteacher says:

      08:20am | 12/02/10

      Without the time to read every comment, the idea of performance based pay for teachers will not work for one simple reason: no two schools, no two classes, no two students are exactly alike. How could the performance of a Year 1 teacher in a leafy inner city suburban primary school be compared to the performance of a Year 9 Metalwork teacher in a small country town, or to a Maths teacher in a remote community school somewhere hundreds, if not thousands of kilometres from the nearest capital?

      The issue is not that we as teachers (me now starting my 11th year in the WA public system) don’t want to be examined or assessed but rather what would be a fair measure? How do you measure success across a broad range of subjects, a broad range of kids? Our education department has failed miserably (try spending billions and then the system simply not working - as they had been told by hundreds/thousands of teachers!!!!!) in trying to revamp our assessment and curriculum over the time I’ve been teaching so why would I expect them to have any clue about knowing what constitutes a high performing teacher across the learning areas and year groups?

      Here’s an idea: when politicians start being paid for their performance, i.e. $10000 for every promise they KEEP, I’ll start to consider the idea of performance pay for us teachers.

    • Dave says:

      10:08pm | 03/02/10

      I have read the statements and media releases from the teachers unions regarding the myschool site. I have also read the comments by teachers here, and spoken to teaching friends of mine about why they do/don’t like the site.
      The one sentiment that constantly stands out is this: the ranking system on this website bears NO relevance to the actual teaching ability of the teachers, the learning capacity of the students, or the success in education of the school as a whole. The unions main concern with the website is that it splits up the teaching industry and allows people to put teachers in the category of ‘good’ or ‘bad’ based on figures that bear no relevance to the actual reality of the situation they are teaching in.

      Furthermore, I read a lot of shameless union bashing on The Punch, but Penbo, this is ludicrous. All you are doing is confusing what is a very important issue by finding whatever meagre threads you can conjure up to connect it to a union, just for the purpose of slinging mud at them.

      This is not hard hitting unbiased journalism, this is misleading, anti-union drivel.

    • haissam agha says:

      08:31pm | 03/02/10

      isn’t it irronic teachers over the years with the support of their union held many strikes to get a pay rise and each time they did they got what they wanted but what did they give back in return? to be fair to some of them some worked realy hard and got the possotive results and thats prooven with their students acheivments and others did nothing other than comming to school to register 7 hours attendance then go home and get paid at the end the week well those sort of teachers should be put under scroutany with their principal, it is very clear that some schools are bettre off closed then open look in the bankstown region only one school performed out of about 30 the question is why? is it the standered of teachers this region have or the students? even if it was the students if this schools had highly qualified teachers they would know how to help those strugling students.
      to me i’m in full support of the website it’s about time that we get to see where the problems are and fix them and next year if this schools results dont improove then the whole school staff and teachers should be replaced till we get what our youth deserve.

    • Anon says:

      10:25pm | 03/02/10

      “only one school performed out of about 30 the question is why?”

      That sort of statistic suggest that poor performance is the norm for that sample and there was one anomaly. I’m not an expert in statistics by any means but if 29 results in 30 are the same - the one other is an aberration. Now the reasons for that poor performance could be just about anything from a poor socio-economic background, poor school attendance rates, high level of students not pursuing further education, lack of parental involvement in education, Non-english speaking background, apathy towards the exams concerned, or just thick students. Most of those things can’t be “fixed”, nor can the integrity of the test be maintained if the results are skewed to reflect those conditions.

      At best the test can be used to place your children at a school with children of the same level of academic achievement as they themselves have achieved. That does not mean it will be the best school for the child’s academic achievement - your child may excel as the lone star or they may prefer the competition of a higher level of academic performance.

    • Chris says:

      07:56pm | 03/02/10

      NAPLAN is a system of exams still in its infancy. These results prove very little about teachers, students or schools.
      I teach in a large, rural, Catholic high school. Every year at HSC results time, there is an obsession with “who got band 6’s, what subjects were they in and what teachers got them?”
      I regularly make the point that, while I do care about the excellent results, I would also like some scrutiny and recognition given to the students who: scored a personal best in at least one subject; improved their performance significantly to get a band 3 or 4 or 5; performed beyond their wildest expectations in getting any band. So many happy stories get lost in the obsession with the top performers.
      Personally, I don’t mind the scrutiny. I believe I’m a good teacher. If data is revealed which shows me to be a crap teacher, based on these one-off standardised test results, I’d be surprised. I’d also demand the right to know where the data came from, how it was collated, what standards are being measured and by whom, what process exists for the rectification of problems with my teaching, who would oversee such a process, how long would the process take, what avenues of appeal would I have and to whom would I be appealing (and many other questions). Get the point? Start seriously questioning the competency of competent teachers and you’re going to get bogged down in legal and bureaucratic processes until the end of time.

    • macca says:

      05:05pm | 03/02/10

      Probably right about the unions but certainly wrong about the usefulness of the tests.NAPLAN tests were never designed to rank schools nor evaluate teachers.I’m sure M/s Gillard knows this but why worry about facts when one’s political credo is all about populist leanings.It appears M/s Gillard’s answer to improving education outcomes is to blame the teachers of the schools whose students scored ‘below average’,whatever that means.This one dimensional focus on teachers is as absurd as the current popular interpretation of the results.If ,as M/s Gillard would have us believe,results can only be improved by improving teachers the logical answer would be to transfer all the teachers of high performing schools to lower performing schools.That’s the absurdity of this site.Simplistic at best,extremely daamaging at worst.

    • Rod Rye says:

      04:23pm | 03/02/10

      The problem with the MySchool website, is that everyone assumes rightly that the teachers don’t want their performance measured, and this leads them to ignore the fact that none of the information available has anything even in the slightest to do with teacher performance.

      Measuring the results of the students at a school tells you exactly one thing, the results of the students at that school. If you want to even hope to measure teacher performance you need to track the improvement of individual students, and the schools they went to between examinations. Maybe even administer an exam at the beginning and end of each year.

      As it stands the information available is no more useful than measuring the wind direction at each school and associating that with performance. The school I went to, in my year graduated students with outstanding results, among the top in the state. The following year results were well below average. The variance had nothing to do with the quality of the education, but the quality of the students. Having parents send children to schools on the basis of how other students did at those schools is damaging to their children and many good schools.

      There’s something wrong with a system that makes a school appear ‘good’ by ignoring and rejecting poor students rather than attempting to improve them. A school that takes the best students and then doesn’t teach them anything will appear great under this system.

      Pay more attention to your child’s education, you will quickly figure out of the school or teacher is any good, no figure on a website will help you with this. It’s a great resource for parents who want to think they’re doing the best for their kids without putting in any real effort though.

      Statistically, the best performing schools should be the smallest schools, as there is the highest chance that they will pull away from the average with just a few bright students. In most cases these will be public schools, because they’re in areas without the population to support private schools as well. Again, you can work this out with a high school education in statistics, anyone who thinks the MySchool website is useful, your old school, clearly, is no good.

    • Jolanda says:

      11:18am | 04/02/10

      The comparison that I would like to see is what % of children got in the different band levels from the school. I would like to see what happens to that and them year after year.

      I believe that there needs to be a spread that should be expected in Education. One would imagine that in a school at least 10% of the school should be expected to be in the highest band.  The next 20% should be in the next band.  The next 40% in the middle band and so on and so on. Or something like that.  If the levels are not being reached then questions need to be asked.  Even disadvantaged parents have intelligent kids.

      It is important for parents of intellectually or high acheiving gifted kids and struggling kids to know that there are other kids achieving at the same/similar level in their child’s class and year.  How the school measures when averaged is not important.  What is important is how they cater for individual needs and kids and that they maintain and improve performance.

      Children do not need a whole school of peers acheiving at the same pace and level than them but certainly they benefit from having similarly acheiving peers in their class and year.  The same goes at all levels of achievement and development. 

      I have high acheiving children and I wouldn’t like my children in a school where there is nobody functioning at the higher levels in their class/year as they would have no academically like minded peers.  But certainly it wouldn’t be a problem if there were a % peforming highly, and a % performing above average, at average and below as that is what most people expect as all children are different. 

      Education - Keeping them Honest
      http://www.jolandachallita.typepad.com/

    • jack says:

      03:36pm | 03/02/10

      I doubt that the Naplan tests are the be-all and end-all of who are the best teachers, but Penbo is right good, teachers deserve more, not so good less.

      I reckon everyone in the school knows which ones are which, so it can’t be beyond the wit of a decent principal and school board to figure it out and reward accordingly.

    • greg hodges says:

      02:36pm | 03/02/10

      This is an interesting article, especially if compared with a similar one by Janet Albrechtsen, in The Australian (why do I read so much News Ltd Press?)  For example, this article is “Filed Uner” Julia Gillard, among other references.  Now why would that be when David manages to write an otherwise interesting article positive about MySchool (while also attacking Unions, of course) without once mentioning Julia or Gillard.  Maybe it should be filed under “Chris Pyne” who gets a gong, in the article,  for being Opposition spokesperson for Education.  Janet Albrechtsen credits Julia with having quite a bit to do with MySchool,  She also refers to her as the Education Minister as well as Deputy PM, tho surprisingly not as future PM.  Does the old Journalist phrase “burying the lead” still exist??  Maybe you could read her article David.

    • Geordie Guy says:

      01:08pm | 03/02/10

      “If the unions were intellectually honest, this website would be welcomed as a long-overdue vindication of the excellence of most public schools.”

      Yeah, exactly.  Perhaps I’m not reading into it deeply enough but when the data is out there, and people immediately chime “It’s not as bad as the data makes it look”, I get suspicious.  If the unions were intellectually honest they would be happy about the data - perhaps using it to nominate a teacher of the year?

    • H of SA says:

      12:39pm | 03/02/10

      Some interestig points Penbo, not sure yet where I sit on this one - with the desire of parents to know more coupled with the fact that the data will almost certainly be misleading.

      I do wonder though if this “ranking schools” is a distraction from the real issue of quality assurance in teaching. Which is the need for more resourcing.

      Instead of worrying over questions of “display the data/don’t display the data” isn’t the real issue the need to recruit better staff?

      Why do we worry about school data when we could be talking about class sizes/ensuring awards are good enough to keep the best teachers in the job.

      I think this discussion really links into a much needed discussion about priorities in Australia. Apparently two of our greates troubles are productivity and a skills crisis - seems to education is a great solution.

      So perhaps this needs to be one of our highest priorities, if we don’t have the money in the public purse, do we need to raise taxes and or school fees? Seems a small price to pay for better education, and just a few dollars more from each Aussie per annum would make the world of difference to education. Surely we can afford maybe $2 a week more tax or something to help out.

    • David C says:

      11:00am | 03/02/10

      the real positive about the webiste is exactly what is happening here and I suspect has been happening since it was launched - it is causing people to have the conversation about education , real change will now come
      This might be along the lines of the following
      - principals will have the power to hire and fire teachers ie true performance management although the performance pay system will a difficult one
      - raise the bar for primary school teachers , the UAI could probably be a tad higher
      - pay levels should be raised
      - principals should be allowed to hire and fire students based on behavioural grounds. some kids do need special education
      - parents need to be more accountable for their child’s performance. (how hard will this one be and yet it should be the easiest)

    • Greg says:

      10:45am | 03/02/10

      Penbo, for the first time ever, I agree with everything that you wrote. It’s making feel very uncomfortable agreeing with you. Please stop being so sensible and revert back to your inflammatory opinions.

    • David Penberthy

      David Penberthy says:

      11:03am | 03/02/10

      No worries Greg - umm, you should be deported. Does that help?

    • monkeytypist says:

      10:34am | 03/02/10

      David, first off, people who are passionate about education don’t do it for the money, by definition.  Second, teachers have a professional interest in things like the quality of education.  We listen to the Medical Association when it offers the government advice on health policy, but whenever a teacher dares to say “you know, it’s kind of pointless and misleading to say that a child’s educational experience can be reduced to a number” they are howled down and demonised as just looking after their “industrial self interest”.

      School ranking tables are the classic example of something that is provided to give an appearance of simplicity where there isn’t one.  We like to think that we make definite choices that influence what educational outcomes our children attain, and we do.  The problem is that firstly when we do, we don’t often realise that we are doing it, and secondly sometimes when we consciously try we don’t have an influence.  Our children’s educational experience is at least partly, and perhaps largely outside of our control.

      That’s why we come up with tables of numbers - to reassure us - we have control, we have knowledge, there is something we can monitor.  I’d be more than happy to admit it’s nice to have the idea of having something we *can* monitor, it’s just that we mostly can’t and MySchool and its ilk are mostly exercises in elaborate self-deception.  But again, any teacher who makes this entirely reasonable point is just “looking after their profession/protecting their mediocre colleagues”.  It may surprise you to learn that the majority of teachers don’t actually think of themselves as mediocre at their jobs; their instinct isn’t to say “don’t rank me because I won’t win”, but rather “don’t rank me because the comparison is invalid, you’re setting too much store by something arbitrary”.  There’s a vital difference.

    • Stephen says:

      02:29pm | 03/02/10

      On the surface it’s easy to bag the union and the teachers, but your responses makes a bit of sense.  I wonder though, even if the tables don’t capture or reflect the full picture as to which schools/teachers are superior/inferior, why do the teachers and their union believe they have the right to stop the govt making that information available?

    • Anon says:

      10:32am | 03/02/10

      As a method of determining the quality of teachers - it’s useless. It gives you an average mark (not the mean mark, or the highest and lowest), it also only show’s point in time information rather than trends which are more relevant in determining the effect of teaching at the school.

      Secondly, it gives no indication of the other sources that contribute to a students education such as tutors, guidance from parents and peers, nor does it consider the motivation/pressure on the students.

      It also assumes that everyone is trying to get the highest mark they can. How does that work with students that are just waiting to go to TAFE or who have other career plans that do not involve going on to UNI? (or students who want to do something like Teaching or nursing do not require a 90+ UAI ). It does not reflect the ambition of the relevant student body.

      Now imagine this - if you need to get 51% to get your desired outcome why would you aim for 90%? Of course, as an adult, it is hard to imagine that a person could do a test without trying their hardest but I ask you why?  Why would a person work harder than they need to? I left exams early (including the HSC)  to go to work fo and I know that I wasn’t the only one. Why? Because I didn’t need to do work as hard to get what I wanted as others did to get what they wanted. Does the eventual mark on the paper reflect on the teaching, the quality of the school generally, the potential of students or simply the target that the student was aiming for?

      For all of the above reasons I am of the opinion that any comparison between schools (in this nature) does nothing to reflect the quality of the school. There are simply too many variables. This is a simple case of mistaking correlation for causation.

      The only real use of the MySchool site is that if Jane Doe wants to study Medicine she’s better off going to James Ruse than Figtree Public - not necessarily because of the quality of the teaching but because of the competition with other students that are seeking a similar performance in their HSC and the focus that brings. To that end the MySchool information is valuable to parents and students.

    • Martin G says:

      10:20am | 03/02/10

      Penbo, I agree with you here. MySchool definitely has flaws, but the idea and intention is good.

      Teachers have had it too good for too long, with their powerful unions always getting their way while pretending to have your childrens’ best interests at heart. Of course, their hand is always grabbing for Joe Taxpayer’s pocket when preaching this line.

      Mind you, it would help here in SA if public school principals could actually select their own staff!

    • Charles says:

      10:11am | 03/02/10

      Penbo, the comments you make about giving principals some power, and paying teachers on merit are truly spot on. 

      The teacher unions have relegated teacher performance in this country to the lowest common demoninator, and it doesn’t matter how hard individual teachers strive to achieve, they will never get any recognition or acknowledgement of the fact, as there is absolutely no incentive in doing so.

      Needless to say this has developed a culture of taking any incentive to be a better teacher away, and so Australian education suffers accordingly.  My wife has been a teacher for nearly 30 years, and you are echoing exactly the things she has observed over all her years at school.

    • Lucy says:

      09:53am | 03/02/10

      An important step towards providing quality teaching in our schools is to a) place more stringent requirements on people wanting to to an education degree, and b) make teaching as a profession more attractive to high achievers, whether it be through pay (or respect?). 

      After I finished my undergrad and was about to do honours, three of my fellow classmates who didn’t get marks high enough for honours (all you needed to do was put down the drugs, turn up and actually do some work, which they didn’t) got into a post-grad teaching degree.  Their words at the time were something along the lines of ‘I don’t know what to do now, maybe I’ll do teaching…’  When I have a child I will do a check on the local school and make sure that these ex-classmates aren’t teaching there, yet how am I to know that there aren’t more of these types who had the same ‘bright idea’?  Teaching at the moment does not attract the best and the brightest. 

      The Mitchell and Webb sketch ‘become a teacher’ hits the nail on the head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4K-Xtzd8EA

    • bella starkey says:

      09:42am | 03/02/10

      I looked on that website and was very upset to find my toffy alma mater was rated lower than the local public school, best known for importing gifted, fee paying international student and exporting low level drug runners.

    • D'oh says:

      09:38am | 03/02/10

      Glossing over your stab at private schools Penbo, I can honestly say that I am surprised at the quality of this article.

      “She should have been paid half as much again as what she was earning; the fellow I mentioned before had no right to be in a schoolyard at all.”

      Spot on, hard work and dedication sould be rewarded and poor performance coupled with apathy should be abhorred & disdained.

    • iansand says:

      09:34am | 03/02/10

      One of the top primary schools was in Paddington in Sydney.  Last week there was a letter in the Sydney Morning Herald from a correspondent in Paddington.  Presumably she knew the school.  She may have been bitter and twisted for some reason, but the anecdote has the ring of truth.  The gist of the letter was that the kids were intensively coached to pass the NAPLAS test (do I have the right acronym?) at the expense of other areas of their education.  It is what is called teaching to the test, and the publication of results will exacerbate the problem. 

      I would not want my child to attend that school for two reasons.  The first is the narrowness of the education.  The second is that any educational institution that focusses only on a high score in one area is a flawed institution.  There is more to education than achieving high marks.

    • Tim says:

      09:08am | 03/02/10

      I like your little biased selective dig at private schools Penbo.
      Obviously the public system didn’t teach you to get over petty jealousies.


      Anyway, i’ve found the Myschool website great. Of course it should not be used as the be-all and end-all for selecting schools by parents but it does provide them with extra information which is always good.

    • Macca says:

      09:08am | 03/02/10

      @Stephen, disagree. There is a place for the Teacher’s Union, anyone earning less than $5 an hour deserves some sort of representation. And if you want better applicants, get the state government to pay them more. Throw your stones there

    • Sean says:

      08:54am | 03/02/10

      I agree completely with Andrew above.

      I’m all for increaed tranparancy in systems but only when it bears a true and practical benefit or improvement and is sure not to result in its opposite.

      The website, for all it’s espoused benefits, could be seen to blinker the public in as much as it serves to deflect public scrutiny away from poiticians and their policies and towards individual schools and the performance of their teacher based on an fallible system of evaluation.

      It’s possible it may produce in an increasingly myopic point of view of our education system through it’s apparent empowerment of the public. Why attack the pollies when we can now attack the schools and teachers?

      And it could prove to be very difficult to curb an accelerated widening of the gap between the best and worst schools due to the information available from the website.

    • Anna says:

      08:46am | 03/02/10

      Um, the AMA is a mob for doctors? They are always throwing their weight around in parliament.

    • Jolanda says:

      08:44am | 03/02/10

      It isn’t very difficult to identify the bad teachers.  You just have to ask the parents and the kids.  Every parent knows the teacher that they do not want their children to get but every year up to 30 kids are placed with that teacher and left for a whole year to go backwards.  Parents are scared to complain because they worry that if they complain their children will suffer.

      Parents have good reason to worry about complaining because payback is the order of the day.  My family should know.  I complained about the neglect of the education of my gifted children and for 8 years my children paid the price.  Their test marks and school applications were tampered with and manipulated to deny them education and opportunity.  They were bullied, marked down, put down, vilified and humiliated by ‘certain’ teachers and Principals in front of their peers and their life was made a living hell.  When we complained the DET just discredited us and closed the complaint.

      Our children are not safe in the system.  I just hope that this website encourages more parents to express their concerns and to support each other when issues are raised.

      Education - Keeping them Honest
      http://www.jolandachallita.typepad.com/

    • Jolanda says:

      11:56am | 04/02/10

      Greg the keeping of my kids down was by the Selective Schools Unit (SSU) not by individual schools.  The SSU tampered with their test marks and school applications in order to discredit them and me (as I was making public complaints to the media and the Minister) about the neglect of the education of gifted children.

      They know that if a parent is speaking out about the education of their children as gifted children, that if these children fail to be successful in a Selective School place that people will think that the studnet musn’t have been gifted and that the parent is just pushy.  However in my families case that wasn’t the case as the children are high achieving gifted children and the results were such that the kids said that they had to see them to believe them.  I have clear evidence in documents produced under FOI that shows that the Leader of the Selective Schools Unit accessed my children’s files and changed scores, information, outcomes and results.

      Teachers were sympathetic and upset about what was being done to us but there was nothing that they could do.  I was told by a Principal of one school that they had been gagged and that they were not allowed to discuss my families case with anybody.

      It doesn’ t need to be a big consipiracy involving schools.  The Selective Schools unit has total control of test marks and school applications and total control of all complaints and allegations made against them.

      The system relies on people thinking that all parents think that their children are gifted.  Certainly what I do not understand is why people do not care if students scores/documents show discrepancies/tampering and manipulation why they don’t believe that allegations against educators that involve bullying, manipulation and victimsation should be formally investigated?

      Without a proper, impartial and fair system of handling complaints how can you be sure of the integrity of the My School websites results?

    • Greg says:

      11:31am | 04/02/10

      Of course Jolanda. *Every* single teacher that every one of your children have had had conspired against them. And not a single one of them ever spilled the beans. Nor did any of their workmates dob them in. This must have taken a military level of organising, a religious zeal to continue and a ninja like stealth to keep secret. Its like extremely unlikely to me, especially when there was no benefit for the teachers to keep your kids down.  Or maybe just maybe your kids are really that gifted as you think.

    • Jolanda says:

      11:11am | 04/02/10

      Ray did you know that there was an enquiry by Prof Vinson into the education of gifted children and his research showed that teachers had a very negative attitude towards gifted issues and that it was a myth that parents all thought that their children were intellectually gifted and that if a parent identified their child as intellectually gifted that more times than not the parent was correct.

      And for the record, I didn’t identify my children as gifted, they were identified as intellectually gifted by external and school psychologists.  I was advised by a teacher to test them because the kids were becoming depressed and the mismatch was so huge that it was obvious that my children were gifted and they were becoming sick and didn’t want to go to school.

      No’ teacher’ has ever said that my children are not gifted,  just that they don’t have the resources and funding to cater for them in the public school system.

    • Ray says:

      07:46am | 04/02/10

      Dear Jolanda, I have quite a number of friends who are teachers in various schools (state / private). The number of times they have heard parents say exactly what you are saying, well, I would tend to think these teachers are rational, educated individuals who have been at their job longer than most parents have had their primary-school kids. Oh no, it cannot possibly be my little Johnny, he is such a nice kid and so smart! It must be the teachers. Conspiracy theories arise. I do not know you or your kids and cannot speak to your situation, but I think your viewpoint is quite unbalanced since I believe it comes solely from one side of the fence.

    • Jolanda says:

      12:44pm | 03/02/10

      See here is the problem Phil people automatically just believe that the kids mustn’t have achieved or that they were not really gifted.  So would you at least agree that if a child/ parent had reason to request documents under FOI to shed some light on some some scores and the documents showed changing of scores, presentation of inccorect scores, tampering and manipulation of documents, deletions, ommisions, misrepresentations of facts and biased and personal opinions that the matter should at least be properly investigated or should everybody assume that the child just wasn’t as smart as the parent said they were and just ignore the complaints/allegations.

      Teachers get away with what they do because of these atttitudes.

    • Tim says:

      12:32pm | 03/02/10

      Ahh Parental Delusion,
      an all too common affliction.

    • Phil says:

      12:10pm | 03/02/10

      If your kids were “gifted” it’s unlikely their scores were artificially marked down.

      They probably just aren’t gifted.

      Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    • Macca says:

      08:41am | 03/02/10

      @Penbo, “People such as Ms Polias represent the majority of teachers..”, should have left it there mate, there are plenty of good teachers in the Catholic and Private Systems as well, who are also represented by a Union and have contracts governed by EBAs.

      “but if it’s reading and writing you’re after, you might do better to skip down the road to the local public school”. Definitely agree. However, as silly as this sounds, I think the last thing parents pay money to Private Schools is for Education. Children go to Private Schools so they can get involved in Music, Sport, Outdoor education etc. At a Private School you pay for facilities and opportunities, whether the child uses them or not is another matter.

      “I suspect there are a lot of hard-working teachers who privately believe that things should change but are afraid to say so for being marginalised by the union crowd.”. Sorry, disagree Penbo. My partner is a teacher and the general consensus is that analysing a teachers performance is quite difficult.

      “there is little point identifying systematic problems with the performance of a minority of teachers, without also giving principals the industrial power to act against them”. Excellent Suggestion… good luck, you’ll need it

    • Nick says:

      08:36am | 03/02/10

      “...if they see that their school is performing well down the list of comparable schools…”

      Penbo, I strangely find I agree with much of what you say, but on this point, (and you illustrate its weakness later) the notion of like schools in Myschool is so flawed it is totally misleading. Take one small example: Cheltenham Girls High School (public, single sex, non selective, ) is considered to be a like school to Sydney Grammar (private, high fee, single sex and probably the most selective school in NSW. ) Yet Sydney Grammar is not considered a like school to James Ruse (public, co-ed and the most highly selective public school in NSW) So these 2 schools whose student profile certainly makes them ‘like’ do not have to withstand comparison. Like wise, Cheltenham is not considered ‘like’ Epping Boys, even though they service the same post codes and many of the girls at Cheltenham have or have had, brothers at Epping. Perhaps if you asked the teachers or outside observers they might list; Chatswood High (co-ed) or say some of the single sex schools eg Strathfield Girls, Burwood Girls etc. as fair comparisons for Cheltenham. I also noted that one of the like schools was Lauriston Girls school in Victoria. I know nothing about this school except when I trawled their website I found the photo gallery singularly devoid off any face indicating NES background, in sharp contrast to Cheltenham.

      It appears from Julia’s statements that the idea of NAPLAN and the site is to identify underachieving schools and teachers. But given the above, surely the only way to identify this is to see what the schools do with the quality of student attending. Surely ‘like’ schools in this regard are those whose student NAPLAN results for Year 7 (i.e on entry to high school)  are similar. (grade 3 to 5 for primary)Thus a conundrum: how can you perform better or worse than like schools on the data that identifies the school as ‘like’ for the purposes of comparison? What would be effective is to take the NAPLAN results of such like schools and compare Yr 7 to Yr 9 on the same cohort and then look at HSC results. This will help identify those schools who are doing the most with the material at their disposal.

      I empathise with your point re performance pay. As a principal in NSW I was always angered by the bleedingly obvious fact that I was paying one teacher x salary for x++ work and another x salary for x- - work. But the method of determing the dofference has always been difficult, as pointed out by Andrew above. Any suggestions in my time with DET were so simplistic or unfair they had to be rejected. At one point it was proposed that Math and Science teachers receive higher pay: Not because they were outstanding teachers but simply because of what they taught. In fact the two worst teachers of my own time at high school were in fact a Maths and a Science teacher! Other schemes such as those under the Insitute of Teachers are so full of wank work for poseurs who race of to myriad inservice course without any discernible improvement and then pay some horrendous fee to be ranked as an “Accomplished Teacher”

      NSW had a system until the Scott report abolished it: inspection of teacher work, in the school ,in the classroom, judged against standards identifying superior teaching effectiveness. As a sometime Inspector I can guarantee this was a rigorous process and certainy identified those whose work, work ethic and effectiveness were worthy of greater reward. But this would only come by accepting a larger administrative role rather than a classroom one.

      As to false encouragement of student mediocrity as a self esteem measure, I recall one school I taught at had such a generous award system that I used to joke that a kid only had to fart creatively to win an award. I know of a selective school that gives out so many awards on a ‘best and fairest’ basis that even the student MC quipped; “Now we come to the part of the ceremony where you get an award just for being in Year 11”

      Work needs to be done to improve schools and to improve teacher performance and reward those who are more deserving than others, but Myschool and its current data and some of the absurd conclusions emanating from it, is not the way to go!

    • Clem says:

      08:25am | 03/02/10

      Penbo, great article, love the story about your Aussie Rules abilities.

      I went to one of those private toffy-nosed school, but I share your sentiments about public schools, and love seeing them give the privates a shellacking in the survey results. Both my kids go to public schools, and I’ve got no fears about their futures.

      However, I think Rebecca above makes a good point, and it would be good if you addressed that. Focusing only on top marks doesn’t tell you the whole picture about the school. Surely the kids at the bottom are just as important as far as academic achievements go, and there’s no way to see in this survey how well the teachers work with these kids, and the improvements they get from them.

    • matt says:

      08:24am | 03/02/10

      But Mark, we already have one of those.

      It’s called an election.

    • Mark says:

      08:03am | 03/02/10

      Lets have a Politician web site, lets call it (mypolitician.com.au) where anyone from the public can look up how your local Politician’s is fairing, with hospitals, roads, rail, law and order ect, where money is being spent, there are thousands of things we can put on it, let’s make Politician’s accountable like the schools and teachers.

    • Brando says:

      08:23am | 03/02/10

      Right Punchers? Is that me? Obviously it can’t be because I think it’s a brilliant concept and I’ bet that most of the hard working teachers think so as well.

      Teachers ask to be treated and paid as professionals yet too many of them act like wharfies. If you want to be paid like professionals then you need to be accountable like professionals.

      Professionals are paid by results. The bigger and better the results the more we get paid. I might get away with a bad quarter but I certainly won’t earn much, nowhere near what my more successful colleagues make for the quarter. Two bad quarters would warrant a few chats with the boss and continuing bad results would put me out on my ear.

      That’s how the professional world works. We’re accountable for our results. Good results equal good remuneration, bad results equal unemployment.

      There are some great teachers out there who deserve to be earning six figure salaries. Yet I also know some teachers who I wouldn’t give the time of day to much less let them teach my kids.

    • Piccoloah says:

      08:00am | 03/02/10

      Good on you! My School is just a beginning. It will put the spotlight on the school and give those who want to get rid of the waffling mediocrities and child loathers a chance.

      Parents will rightly demand to find out how much on-time learning goes on in classrooms and why it is that good teachers’ time and motivation is being eroded by serial disruptors of the student and bureaucratic varieties.

      Hopefully it will also expose the government and union bureaucrats who in their own ways connive at the spin emoloyed to cover up failures.

    • Rebecca says:

      07:49am | 03/02/10

      I’m a teacher. The problem that I have with the website is that it’s focus is purely on attaining high results on a test. But this is not indicative of the achievements of many students who are having difficulties. Some of my greatest achievements involve the kids in the bottom end of the scale - the first time they were able to write a paragraph without me having to fix their grammar; the first time they were able to read the chapter of a book without asking what a word means; the first time they were able to score over 50% in a test. These may not rank as highly as a good NAPLAN result, but we are still changing their lives for the better. Perhaps, David, if you had actually spent time with a teacher, you would understand that our happiness lies in helping kids, no matter what their levels of skill are. It is the fact that this website is a numbers game that I have the issue with - because for most of my students, that number is one tiny speck in their learning journey.

      And before you ask, I teach at one of the top 50 schools in the state according to the SMH. I am a special needs specialist and teach a variety of students - I’ve taught kids getting Band 6s in the Advanced English course of the HSC, and I’ve taught kids who can barely scrape into a Band 3 in the School Certificate. But I consider them all successes.

    • Werner says:

      05:46pm | 03/02/10

      Rebecca:  It’s = it is.  No possessive pronouns have apostrophes.  His, hers, ours…. Please.

    • David C says:

      03:21pm | 03/02/10

      Whats to stop a school not letting the “dumb” kids sit the NAPLAN test?

    • E says:

      12:58pm | 03/02/10

      interesting point, maybe we should be doing a base line test in the first week of prep or grade one, along with an iq test each year to provide some indication of the relative abilities of school populations?

    • Macca says:

      08:50am | 03/02/10

      Fair Comment Rebecca, How about a graph that interprets the NAPLAN results of Children as years go by to see if each student has improved or gone backwards?

      i.e. if the top students have gone backwards slightly, but the rest of the cohort has improved significantly, that would show a school (or maybe a few teachers in the very least) is performing, regardless of whether the average overall score is 400 or 40.

      Also, if you’re a teacher, what are the kids doing now? playing “Sleeping Lions”? excellent

    • Andrew says:

      07:42am | 03/02/10

      “And it should have less to do with punishing the minority of bad teachers than giving greater reward and opportunity to the enormous pool of dedicated and brilliant teachers”

      Any proposals on how to do this? You sure as hell cannot base it on aggregated test results or other quantifiable ‘data’. Sure many excellent teachers I know spend many nights, weekends and holidays in library’s and elsewhere researching new topics and creative delivery methods. Try arranging a social engagment with a teacher on a weekend… Usually they are too busy. Their schools show green when you open the respective MySchools pages, so on a quanitifiable data model of performance pay (is there any other kind?) they would benefit. But what would happen should they, with enhanced experience, go (or go back to) a disadvantaged school for an increased challenge. Yes many great teachers do do this, and not for any increased money. Just for the challenge and satisfaction of making a difference. How do you compare the same amount of effort being put in, if not more so, just to get the kids to remain in their seat and not attacking each other? Just retaining their interest and keeping those students in the classroom is an achievement that in many cases is much harder work than babysiting gifted students at the top schools who have private tutors and would get the marks anyway.

      This is the fundemental issue with performance pay. The result of effort is so dynamic and diverse depending on the environment that quantifiable data such as test results look like an easy measure but in fact measure nothing at all. If performance pay is based on some form of test result then there could be an exodus of experienced teachers heading for ‘green schools’ and new, inexperienced or incompetent teachers left in the red type schools further and further widening the gap. I am not an apologist for mediocrity, I just see things practically. Maybe the teachers unions do have a valid point.

    • Werner says:

      05:44pm | 03/02/10

      I am a teacher so forgive my first comment: “Sure many excellent teachers I know spend many nights, weekends and holidays in library’s and elsewhere ...”  The plural of library is libraries. 
      I agree with this superb response.  Excellent teachers do need to be rewarded, but the results of students on a brief series of tests cannot be the only criterion.  If a brilliant teacher accepts the challenge of a difficult school and lifts the results by the slightest margin but that margin is still below the benchmark, how are they judged?

    • Peter says:

      06:45am | 03/02/10

      Your comment: I wonder if you surveyed teachers and asked them: “what were your teachers like when you went to school?” they would have plenty of anecdotes about great and crap teachers. They could all name a teacher who let them down. They probably wanted to become a teacher because: a) they wanted to improve the education of our kids or b) they also want to be lazy and crap. Parents have a right to know. It’s their kids and their money that pays the bills. Simple.

    • T.Chong says:

      06:40am | 03/02/10

      Should be interesting to see how Right Punchers will try to villify Rudd while siding with a OMG ! , a union!

    • Macca says:

      08:59am | 03/02/10

      @Brando, I don’t think the average teacher acts like a Wharfie, but I do think some of the Union officials do. Unions who seem to strike as often as the ETU seem to have very poor negotiating skills.

      As for measuring their results? I’d be interested in understanding how you would do this? its not as simple as making a sale or wining and dining a client…

      Professor Levitt, economics at Chicago University outlined a plan in his book Freakonomics, but I’m struggling to find a link to it, slash I’m lying and haven’t bothered looking.

      I think its a very dificult thing to measure Brando and giving bonuses to teachers probably attracts people who are more interested in money than developing children, which is fine if you work for Mac Bank, but probably not so good if you work at Dubbo Public

    • stephen says:

      05:26am | 03/02/10

      One benefit in having a mediocre level of Teacher applicants - and training - is that they need a Union to speak on their behalf.
      (I don’t know whether this is irony or tragedy.)
      Smart teachers, then, don’t need looking after.
      If you wish to rid this country of Teacher’s Unions, then raise the standard of Teacher applicants.
      Some Unions are needed. Not this one, and I think an important reason why the Teaching Profession is held in relatively low regard by the community, is because of the stupidity and selfisheness of their Union.
      Teachers wish to be regarded in the same light as Doctors and Lawyers, yet can you imagine the latter having such a mob to represent them to Government ?

    • Phil says:

      05:53am | 04/02/10

      Stephen

      Not sticking up for Lawyers or Teachers, but in Government probably hearly half of the libs are Doctors or Lawyers, and on Labor side either Lawyers or Union Officials.

      Their interests are therefore well represented.

      Good comment though.

    • Chris says:

      07:25pm | 03/02/10

      Oh, come on. Unions do more than just whinge about government initiatives and engage in pay negotiations. Indeed, in this litigious age, a strong teachers’ union is essential in protecting members against malicious and false allegations of impropriety in dealing with students. (There are few similar occupations in this regard, where the likelihood of a baseless allegation is constantly at the back of one’s mind.)
      Unions are also involved in: negotiations over class sizes (your little darlings in Kinder now have smaller classes!); supporting the unions of ancilliary staff; educating new staff as to their entitlements; supporting staff who encounter difficulties with “the system” (transfers, for example).
      Oh, and I think teachers are still quite respected in the community, despite the occasional, ill-advised union action.

    • Rose says:

      12:31pm | 03/02/10

      You mean a group like the AMA, or the various legal associations that abound??

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Daniel Piotrowski

@ToryShepherd there's always time for Din Tai Fung.

ToryShepherd

@drpiotrowski will be there just in time for Din Tai Fung

Daniel Piotrowski

@ToryShepherd I hope that's in your piece tomorrow. Also - are you coming over this week or laaaaaater?

ToryShepherd

@drpiotrowski yes, Snowtown Abbey should be given an entirely segregated feed...

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Deep down we’re all unionists, even the haters

Deep down we’re all unionists, even the haters

Bill Kelty made a memorable speech last week. Addressing the ACTU Congress Dinner in Sydney, the legendary…

Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia…

Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia…

Speaking of yourself in the third person is usually a sign that you’re suffering from delusions…

South Australia. It’s the middle bottom bit.

South Australia. It’s the middle bottom bit.

If South Australia had just arrived in the world, red and wrinkled and mewling, what would we call it?…

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

241 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter