Museums should be allowed to keep their artefacts

Mr Pastry says:

07:25am | 10/10/09

And lets give all the gold back to the Mexicans while we’re at it.  Ownership has historical context here, e.g. the Brits held the bigger stick at the time and took what they wanted.  Still goes on today, why pick on some old overrated bathroom marble.

Passionate says:

07:26am | 10/10/09

Having argued the same point in my Cultural heritage courses I can agree with you. The physicality of being able to access artefacts at museums can sometimes bridge the gap between someone who’s interested and someone who’s passionate.
As a world in the grips of globalisation our cultural institutions should reflect this. Should the Elgin (sorry Parthenon Marbles for those of you who are PC) Marbles be given back? Possibly. Should they stay at the BM? Possibly. But if you don’t have the money to go to Greece to see the antiquities yourself then the next step is to go down to the closest Museum.
Whoops! Sorry Johnny all we can give you to look at is some glossy pictures, an overpriced book and an empty gallery. Try to save up to go to Athens next time.

Simon Mundy says:

07:31am | 10/10/09

Museums keep the stuff safe, most of these artifacts would not exist in the condition they are today if it were not for the museums preserving them.  Be thankful that the museums appreciated their importance at the time and not hundreds of years later when it is too late and they would have been destroyed.

Austin 3:16 says:

09:17am | 10/10/09

So if I break into your house and take all your possession it will be ok as long as I put those possessions on display ?

McDil says:

09:34am | 10/10/09

Museums aren’t about people. They are a manifestation of power and institutionalise exploitation. The same educational benefit can be derived from having copies of the artefacts retained in museums while returning the originals to their rightful owners.

Mr Pastry says:

09:50am | 10/10/09

If I break into your house you can take your possesions back that is the law and I am directly responsible.  But this is about nations behaviour in the past.  Are you going to give your house and land back to the Aborigines?

Geoff says:

10:20am | 10/10/09

History is Global, and the artefacts from time ago teach us the change in our world, in our people. I love that I can go to the museum and see world history, not just local history. I can go to the library and read world books, not just local books.

The pieces weren’t simply stolen, they were found and preserved.  I’m proud that Australian relics and pieces are in other world museums.

pc says:

10:36am | 10/10/09

Dont worry passionate, I’ve called them the elgin marbles. And I understand the convenience of the British Museum. After Napoleon was ousted by the allies, the louvre, which he’d helped to fill, was broken up and it was reported that ENGLISH scholars wept to see such a congregation of wonders be dispersed. Well stiff, as far as the world is currently concerned we have organised ourselves into nation states and what you find in that persons nation state is that states, even if you took it a long time ago and there was no state at the time that claimed ownership. If we expect others to abide by rules then we must also.

Working in the British museum must have been an incredible experience, Lucy. I wonder if it ever became stale, or did those huge babylonian, or are they syrian, anyway those big lions with beards and funny hats? Did they ever fail to remind you of your own insignificance? (Maybe that was just me.)

Sam Scout says:

10:52am | 10/10/09

I agree with Simon. Most of these artefacts would have been looted or damaged had they not been preserved in museums.

If they are returned will these countries then reimburse the UK etc for the cost of preserving these artefacts over the years.

Gina says:

10:53am | 10/10/09

This is one of the silliest, most misguided articles I’ve seen in a while. Are you suggesting that they don’t have museums in Greece or Italy??! 

Surely nations have a right to ask for the return of priceless artefacts STOLEN or bought cheap during the era of colonialism.

It’s not outdated for people to want their cultural heritage back, it IS outdated to suggest that we should just ‘let things be’, because it’s easier that way and more beneficial for us.

MJ says:

11:10am | 10/10/09

In Greece they teach their kids, their culture and history, yet in a country where the pieces are soley held in a museum for people who just want to see something nice, makes no sense at all. The Greeks have spent a lot of money creating a museum to facillitate these artifacts, why??? Well to show their countries history to the children of Greece, not to create revenue. You have to put this is proper context, yeah it Britain the artifacts are treated well, etc, etc, but really Britain has no emotional ties to them, no sense of pride towards the artifacts, but Greeks do!!! Why punish the people who will love, and use these artifacts more than the British???

Brendon says:

11:20am | 10/10/09

I have never really thought about this - but how interesting and true.
Being able to see our fascinating history - for everybody, instead of keeping these treasures behind closed doors - or lost.
Austin - I think you’re missing the point.

Helen Sarantopoulos says:

11:25am | 10/10/09

Good one Austin!

Such an Anglo-centric, western point of view. And you speak about ‘tolerance’ in the same piece. This is too sad…

John A Neve says:

11:27am | 10/10/09

Austin,
I don’t believe your argument is valid. Who’s possessions are we talking about. The boundaries and occupants of many countries are vastly different to 4,000 years ago. What race of people actually built or carved these items?
Who found them? Who has preserved them for years?
For us in Australia to talk about returning things to earlier owners is a sick joke.

Dalma says:

01:38pm | 10/10/09

I am all for returning what is rightfully theirs. Years ago the skulls of Aborignals were kept in the British Museum, as were the remains of Maoris of NZ. These remains were reluctantly returned after a furore - sensativity is the word. The Gulf War saw many of Iraq’s centuries old artifacts looted and finishing up all over the World on the backs of a flourishing trade in purloined treasure. You dont have to visit a museum physically anymore - it’s on the net. Our War museum in ACT contains numerous relics and artifacts that were stolen in the field of battle. No questions are asked where they originated from or what circumstances surrounded the acquisitions - that goes for most museums around the World. How would you feel if your great-gran-parent’s remains were on display like some kind of a freak show. I’d prefer they were intered respectfully and with dignity.

Miranda Matt says:

01:50pm | 10/10/09

Without ‘theft’ through the ages, we’d be back in the Stone Age. Do we give China back tea and pasta? Do we give all hybridised animals and plants back from where they came?
The sharing of antiquities is a profoundly important aspect of our species.

Costas says:

03:24pm | 10/10/09

The Greeks are “infamous” for trying to get the “Elgin Marbles” back are they, Lucy? The only infamy in this case belongs to Lord Elgin, who looted Greece’s national treasures (properly known as the Parthenon Marbles) and the British museum, for possession of what is effectively stolen property. The Greek authorities are merely lobbying to rectify a historic injustice, as it is their duty to do so on behalf of their people.

Vanessa says:

04:22pm | 10/10/09

I love museums, I think they are the most wonderful places in the world but I also think that if museums have artifacts that have been removed from other civilizations then they should be returned to be displayed with pride in the country who’s people invented/created etc them or buried with respect to that cultures beliefs. 

I have not learned less because a display was a replica.  My children do not enjoy their museum experience any less because the dinosaur bones are made of plaster, and hopefully they understand respecting other peoples right of ownership of their culture a little better .

Aleg says:

07:13pm | 10/10/09

@Austin
If I discovered the remnants of your house hundreds of years later and decided to take a few artifacts so people in my home country could learn about you and your culture, then yes, It is ok.

Mr Pastry says:

10:16pm | 10/10/09

@austin -  Yes as long as it is in a quality wood cabinet.

Linus says:

11:11am | 11/10/09

Your comment: The days of this kind of thinking are long gone. The massive looting that took place in WWII and the shock of society thereafter has resulted in significant changes of thinking, none of which are displayed here in this article.

The author states that the Elgin Marbles are among her favorites. While I understand the reasons why she would call them by that name, they are probably better known as the frieze from the Parthenon.

If one truly thinks that they are better displayed in a museum, and not attached to the building they belong to and designed for, then that is the first sign of something incredibly perverse.

And as for the oft used statement that they are safer in London. They simply are not. But since you mentioned it, I gather you also think that the people of India should thank their former colonial governors for making the trains run on time.

Take a look at http://www.ArtTrack.tk to see a collection of what today’s thinkers are saying on this topic of “we know best”. Its archaic.

Alex Megalos says:

11:12am | 11/10/09

Lucy, for starters, they are not the Elgin Marbles… they are the from the Parthenon .  They do not fit in with any of your arguments as they involved the callous destruction of this monument during what was an illegal removal that had the consent of an occupying army and not of the people of its land. It is ironic that the British museum promotes the Parthenon marbles as symbols of democracy, and yet were acquired completely illegally and against the will of the country and its people they were taken from during a time of foreign occupation. The British Museum has a Caryatid from the Acropolis as well that is kept in some back room away from the public.  Come on, enough of this British Imperialism.  The Parthenon frieze should be enjoyed as a whole and not as some artifact from a distant land and civilisation. It is like ripping chapters out of a book and forcing people to read it.  The Parthenon marbles should be reunited.

Alex Megalos says:

11:13am | 11/10/09

Lucy, for starters, they are not the Elgin Marbles… they are the from the Parthenon .  They do not fit in with any of your arguments as they involved the callous destruction of this monument during what was an illegal removal that had the consent of an occupying army and not of the people of its land. It is ironic that the British museum promotes the Parthenon marbles as symbols of democracy, and yet were acquired completely illegally and against the will of the country and its people they were taken from during a time of foreign occupation. The British Museum has a Caryatid from the Acropolis as well that is kept in some back room away from the public.  Come on, enough of this British Imperialism.  The Parthenon frieze should be enjoyed as a whole and not as some artifact from a distant land and civilisation. It is like ripping chapters out of a book and forcing people to read it.  The Parthenon marbles should be reunited.

Toby says:

11:35am | 11/10/09

This is a remarkably self-centred and poorly argued article.

Basically your response to the claims of countries of origin is “but museums are great, people get to see stuff that way!” You make no attempt to engage with the legitimate claims these countries have, claims that are based on the cultural, historical and sometimes religious significance many of the artifacts in question have for their countries of origin. As an earlier commentater pointed out, don’t Greek, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian or Italian children have as much of a right to see their cultural heritage as English children do? Indeed, if you want to use the “we can’t afford to go there argument” is it fairer to expect Greek or Egyptian children to bear the cost of travelling to England to see what their ancestors created? Surely Greek museums are more deserving of the tourist revenue these kinds of objects generate then the Louvre or British Museum and if you want to Greek things and can’t afford to go to Greece then too bad! If you can already afford to go to London you’re not doing too badly are you?

So what if you worked in the British museum and liked looking at things. Perhaps what you’re suggesting is that more people will see the artifacts in the British museum then would if they were kept in Greece. But if that’s the case then surely we should ship it all to China and India and let the billions of people there look at them.

What about the bodies of aborigines that were stolen hundreds of years ago, some of which are yet to be returned. Should they be kept by museums? Especially given all the aborigines want to do is put them back in the ground! Who’s going to be able to see them there?

As for the “they’re safe in museums”, i’m pretty sure that China, Greece, Italy and Egypt can manage to run a museum. Perhaps there is an argument that in countries that are highly unstable where there’s a genuine risk artifacts will be destroyed that they should be kept in museums in other countries but that’s beside point given western museums clearly aim to retain their collections whatever the situation in the country of origin.

Guff says:

12:05pm | 11/10/09

Keep ‘em eh. Try telling that to any aboriginal community whose recent - somtimes very recent - ancestors were dug up in the 19th and 20th Centuries and carted off to Aus and UK museums as anthropologgical specimens.  Remarkably patient they’ve been, too, negotiating their belated and often reluctant return, though few had ever been “studied” in any meaningful way.

John A Neve says:

12:41pm | 11/10/09

Who owns what? Countries have both name and boundary changes over the years. For example is Greece and it’s people the same as it was 4000 years ago? I think not.
Many old building and artifacts have been plundered by later generations for both their value and building materials. Who found and preserved these artifacts? Who has restored them?
Following the ebe and flow of mankind over the years, useing Greece an an example, are the Greeks today truly related to the Greeks of 4000 years ago?

In many cases people from other countries spent their time and their money, finding, preserving and restoring these artifacts. So why should they give them up?

pc says:

07:23pm | 11/10/09

Hi John A Neve,  I think that you are simply repeating yourself and at the risk of further repitition I will only add that of my trips to the British Museum, it was hard not to notice that many of the artefacts were “discovered” by colonels, captains etc in the British armed forces. These soldiers were only able to make off with these artefacts because there was no one with enough guns to stop them. I agree that the history of all cultures is the history of cultural borrowing (to paraphrase Edward Said) but theft is theft.

Felix says:

07:30pm | 11/10/09

Austin, after you have stolen Lucy’s possessions and put them on display, make sure you erect a plaque saying that you only did it because you were worried that Lucy was incapable of looking after her stuff properly.

Aleg, Elgin stole the marbles not to learn about the culture but to decorate his own home in Scotland. The British Govt only got them when Elgin went bankrupt. Theft is theft dude.

John A Neve says:

07:17am | 12/10/09

PC,
I don’t think you have responded to my posts. It can only be theft if you can establish who the rightfull owner is. To use Greece as an example, is the country or its people directly related to those that made or constructed these
relics?

Liz says:

07:37am | 12/10/09

Lets give the countries of the former British Empire back undamaged to their previous occupants plus the artefacts that were stolen.Simple.

iansand says:

07:40am | 12/10/09

John A Neve@8:17 That is a perticularly narrow view of things.  There are two things that are almost incontrovertible.  The first is that the Parthenon is, and has always been, in Athens.  The second is that, until Lord Elgin wandered by, the frieze was firmly attached to it.

John A Neve says:

08:31am | 12/10/09

Iansand,
As I have stated Greece is only being used as an example. The collection of relics is a world wide issue.
But back to Greece, or what we now know as Greece. More buildings and artifacts have been recycled by later day “Greeks” than any one else.
Based on your ideas, as I have mentioned before all white Australians should return their land to out black brothers and leave this country. Just think of the utter chaos if every thing had to be returned to its place of origin and previous owners.

Ben Hunter says:

08:54am | 12/10/09

While I agree in principle that artefacts that can be reasonably proven to be stolen should be returned, any Australian claiming this should be very careful not to be a hypocrite. If a stolen piece can be repatriated to a legitimate museum, close to where it came from, where it will be preserved to a satisfactory standard with a precise replica left in its place surely everyone is better off?

No more international arguments about who owns what. The museum that is giving the piece away has already benefitted from having it on display for x amount of years so incurred cost should not be a problem, and with a replica in its place there will be twice as many people who can see the piece (or a copy of it) in museums.

iansand says:

10:04am | 12/10/09

John A Neve @9:31 I don’t follow your logic at all.  I am probably missing something, but artefacts and countries seem to me to be different, at least in scale.  I do not think returning a chunk of the Parthenon will cause major political and social disruption.  Your argument is the entirely fallacious “if we can’t do everything do nothing” cop out.

John A Neve says:

10:22am | 12/10/09

Iansand,
I’ll make it really simple. The house you live in, who’s land is it on?
How did you obtain that land?

pc says:

10:56am | 12/10/09

John A Neve,

John, I want to give australia back to its original owners. Im not sure they are going to be happy about the condition though. I think iansand might be allowed to stay, he’s often quite witty. (Iansand 8.40am)

John A Neve says:

11:20am | 12/10/09

PC,
I really feel this debate is going nowhere, however, many people only see the obvious. They do not think of the ramifications following their decisions.
First world countries have stuffed up big time and we all (I hope), know that.
But to try and correct the past is futile and will cause even more global unrest.

Bruce says:

12:28pm | 12/10/09

The Gap Year Girl who worked in the Gift Shop says keep ‘em. OK.

Mad Kay says:

12:47pm | 12/10/09

Lucy, and posters who agree with her, I recommend you read “Loot” by Sharon Waxman, an account of how many treasures (such as the Elgin Marbles) came to be in foreign museums as well as the arguments for and against return.  Many world class museums have voluntarily agreed to repatriate works, recognising that the way in which these pieces were acquired is at odds with modern standards regarding provenance.  Anyway, it is a good read if you are interested in the debate.

pc says:

02:01pm | 12/10/09

Hi John,

First I want to say that although I disagree, I really enjoyed Lucy’s article and this strand. “But to try and correct the past is futile and will cause even more global unrest.” I think you’ve got that entirely back to front John. If we dont correct the past or at the very least acknowledge the truth of the past, then we are destined to repeat it. The first time as tragedy and afterwards, as perhaps some posters here realise,  as farce. The idea that these artefacts shouldnt be returned, I believe, is a farcical idea. (Does anyone know how to spell farcical?)

Alex Megalos says:

02:32pm | 12/10/09

John A Neve you seem to be going down a differen track. Of course Greeks are culturally aligned with the Parthenon marbles. It is a relationship that transcends genetic traces of origin, but rather are formed on a cultural and linguistic affiliation.  Greeks today still speak the language of Pericles or Socrates and recognise the ideals its contribution to civilisation. They are reminded of this cultural legacy everyday in the spheres of government , medicine, mathematics and science, where terms and descriptions form a familiar context. I know, because I too share this legacy with them, as a person who was immersed in this language from birth. The Parthenon Marbles are not simply random curiosities from an ancient past for me; they serve as a bond to my cultural identity.

Infamous Greek says:

09:18pm | 12/10/09

Mr Neve

The British (or whoever their genetic predessors were) were still living in mud huts when the Greeks had built the Parthenon, invented a written language and developed countless studies and philosophies that still continue influence.

Maybe we should leave the Parthenon marbles and all other stolen antiquities in the British Musuem to remind people of this fact and transport the pebbles at Stonehenge to Athens so that Greek children can see how the primitive Brittanians used to live? I’m sure very few would be moved to make the outrageous trek to farflung Greece for that stimulating museum visit.

Cheers from
Modern day Greek who has absolutely no cultural connection to her country’s illustrious past
(Thanks for telling me who I am Mr Neve - duh! I’m such a dumb wog I shouldn’t be allowed to define myself)

Maria says:

11:12pm | 12/10/09

Lucy, I disagree with what you wrote. How can you be so narrow-minded?
1) Does Greece have no proper museums? This summer I went to Athens, the new Acropolis Museums just left me speechless, it’s perfect, so please no more excuses.
2) When you recall the “poor” museum visitors that can’t afford to travel, it’s quite obvious you’re considering British visitors only. Not to talk of the fact that from Italy (and from other countries, I suppose) travelling to GB is way more expensive than to Greece, it’s sad and absurd you just don’t care if Greeks have to go to GB to see something which belongs to their own history.
To John A Neve and anyone worried of “the utter chaos if every thing had to be returned to its place of origin and previous owners”: there’s a difference between the Parthenon marbles and other works of art. I wouldn’t be particularly interested in asking the return of an object to Italy, let’s say the Mona Lisa, only because Leonardo was Italian. But if the object were something I really feel a strong tie with, something which talks about my identity and whose silhouette is familiar to me like the lines on my hand… I don’t know if I’ve been clear enough, sorry.

Kameron says:

03:22am | 07/09/10

I do not believe we should strip the museums bare but the supermely iconic artworks that are, in some cases, the symbol of the country of origin should indeed be returned. Nefertiti is the other well promoted artifact that really should be returned. She is one of the top five iconic Egyptian images to have infiltrated world consciousness and sitting in a Berlin museum certainly limits the chance of a native modern day Egyptian from seeing this Queen in the flesh, so to speak. Many people new to Egyptian wonderment cannot believe she does not reside in Egypt. Most Egyptians are sad about this.  No wonder their tourist reproductions of her are mostly horrific imaginings.