It’s interesting, isn’t it, that the general public finds itself dismayed and outraged about our live export industry, which transports our happy, healthy cows to deepest darkest Asia to meet a cruel and violent death, at the same time as our government is preparing to transport our refugees to the very same region and it’s only the Greens and the usual bleeding-heart refo activists that are arcing up.

Any excuse to run a shot of beef laksa… and yes, we know it's the third Malaysian dish we've run on the website this week.

This week, we heard Senator Sarah Hanson-Young hopes to thwart the Government’s plan to send refugees to Malaysia – where refugee treatment includes the occasional caning – by introducing an amendment to the Migration Act that will oblige Julia Gillard to seek the Parliament’s permission before sending refugees to a third country.

The opposition will support Hanson-Young out of sheer contrarianism rather than concern for human rights. But she’ll take her support where she can get it, since the tens of thousands who signed online petitions and wrote to their local members begging them to save our cows don’t seem to have much compassion left over for the human cargo.

Still, perhaps if some daring reporter can get inside a Malaysian refugee camp and take some really, really gruesome pictures, the Australian public might shed its indifference. But for how long?

We’ve all seen how powerful images on TV can get the public’s compassion pulse racing from time to time. Soon after we saw the miserable pictures of Kosovar refugees lugging bulging shopping bags as they fled their burning villages, we were welcoming ethnic Albanian families to our shores (they arrived by plane, which apparently makes all the difference).

In the 1980s, close-ups of balloon-bellied African children led pop stars to record painfully earnest Christmas hits whose sales would feed the world – or at least a bit of it, for a while. Grim footage of remote Aboriginal communities, their youth staggering about in a petrol-sniffer’s haze, or pictures of refugees with their lips sewn up somehow fail to produce quite the same effect on the silent majority.

When human rights abuse happens here, it seems the victims have nearly always brought it upon themselves.

In any case, no matter how overwhelming the public reaction, once the pictures have been replaced by some other news story, we forget about it and move on. We simply learn to live with it. The live export industry is no doubt hoping that’s what will happen this time, since the task of reforming Indonesia’s abattoirs any time soon is surely an impossible one.

In fact, the ALP has already backed away from last week’s ban and trade is set to resume in accordance with “international” cruelty standards that are lower than Australia’s. Animal welfare groups are not happy about it but it’s hard to maintain that level of public pressure over more than a few days.

It’s not surprising that in a developing country still struggling to deliver basic human rights to its people, animal welfare isn’t as high a priority for lawmakers and citizens as it is in Australia. But it’s an irony worth noting that the relatively shambolic nature of Indonesia’s legal and regulatory systems is both the reason the animals aren’t better protected, and the very reason we could see the pictures that ignited this debate.

While Australia’s orderly system keeps cruelty under control, it also keeps public scrutiny at bay. When was the last time you saw moving footage of what goes on in an Australian abattoir or factory farm?

There really is no easy way for Australians to judge whether the legal standards we set for animal treatment are being widely adhered to at home. What are those legal standards, anyway? How do we know whether they are a fair reflection of community attitudes and feelings about how much cruelty is too much?

Few Australian factory farms would be happy to see Four Corners at the gate, cameras rolling, and the same goes for most Australian abattoirs. Even those that operate well within the law have plenty to fear from public exposure.

I don’t like watching animals die, but I do like to eat them. Like most omnivorous Australians, watching the slaughter of pigs and sheep is not something I’ve ever had a chance to get used to.

How many of us would be put off our dinner if we had to watch an animal die “humanely” each time we ate it? What would a “humane” death even look like? There seems to be something dishonest – or at least dishonorable – about our refusal to look livestock death in the eye, preferring to buy our meat in the form of nice faceless, plump, pink fillets, decorously adorned with sprigs of fresh parsley, nary a bone or scrap of fur or feather in sight.

And what about the way animals live their lives here, particularly all those chickens and pigs locked up on factory farms? You can be sure that the industry is well aware of the devastating effect footage of these establishments might have on the meat-eating public.

The security and anti-trespass systems on some these farms make for a kind of Guantanamo Bay for innocent beasts, and when activists do manage to sneak inside and do some filming, the industry seeks injunctions in the courts so that the Australian public can remain blissfully unaware of what happens to its food before it hits the supermarket shelves.

Perhaps, after all, that’s the wrong strategy. Perhaps if we were shown enough of those images often enough – rows and rows of stunned cows falling loose-legged to the ground before having their throats humanely cut, pigs and chickens self-mutilating in distress - we’d just learn to live with it.

Follow Sarah on Twitter - @sarahpgilbert

237 comments

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    • Paulb says:

      06:03am | 16/06/11

      There never was a Tamil Cows of Elaam, that’s probably why.

    • non-warmist says:

      03:27pm | 16/06/11

      @egg.  Eggsactly.  We have no idea.  Passports/documentation destroyed.  We have no idea. 
      Advocates insist they’re fleeing torture.  We have no idea.

      What we do know is -  Not “ours”

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      03:56pm | 16/06/11

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEYzH2yJkdg

      Well then losers, how about this bit of film from BBC 4.  Pity Australians have no guts or heart because this had me gagging.

      Bear in mind what Gillard said at the end of this atrocity, that is still happening today.

      Last night, the UNHCR published its revised eligibility guidelines on Sri Lanka.
      The guidelines are just one source of information which has helped to inform
      the Government about the changing situation in Sri Lanka.
      The UNHCR report confirmed the improved human rights and security
      situation in Sri Lanka and that displaced people continue to return to their
      homes. Instead of automatically presuming that particular groups in Sri Lanka
      are refugees, the UNCHR states that all asylum claims must now be
      considered on a case by case basis, noting that some groups may still be at
      risk.
      With the new information, acceptance rates are likely to fall.
      Today, in light of these circumstances, I am announcing the Government has
      decided to lift immediately the suspension on processing claims for Sri
      Lankan. Those currently in detention will have their claims processed against
      a range of country information including the revised UNHCR report I have
      described.
      So I have a message for people in Sri Lanka who might be considering
      attempting the journey to Australia. Do not pay a people smuggler, do not risk
      your life, only to arrive in Australian waters and find that far, far more likely
      than not you will be quickly sent home by plane.

    • carol says:

      05:19pm | 16/06/11

      The BBC?  No,  I’ll pass

    • Leopard says:

      05:26pm | 16/06/11

      “Do not come”
      Have you sent this message to Sri Lanka?

    • Erick says:

      06:05am | 16/06/11

      They’re not “our refugees”. They’re boat people who departed from safe countries (like Malaysia) in search of a soft life. 90% of boat people are still on welfare five years after arrival. How terrible if we send some people who came uninvited from Malaysia. back to Malaysia again!

      I fact, Australians are very generous to the genuine refugees who come in through our regular channels. Those refugees have contributed a great deal to our society in return. Unfortunately, asylum bludgers are squeezing out those genuine people to make room for their own greedy mob.

      As for cattle - don’t you think it’s insulting to compare them to boat people? There is no commonality between the two issues - just an offensive and invalid metaphor.

    • acotrel says:

      06:36am | 16/06/11

      @Erick
      As for cattle - don’t you think it’s insulting to compare them to boat people? There is no commonality between the two issues - just an offensive and invalid metaphor. ‘

      What is your taste in refugees?  You must be hungry.

    • DJ says:

      07:19am | 16/06/11

      Jeez I love you Erik

    • TChong says:

      07:41am | 16/06/11

      Eckka
      I’m sure you’ll recall the exact same claims were made about the indochinese “boat people “
      The “boatees” were all opium smoking, prostituting their daughters, grew ducks and rice in their cupbards and rooms, in homes the “govt gave them”
      They were all dole bludgers, and “sleeper cadres"of commie subversion.
      Wrong on all accounts.
      These ex “boat people"even elected the LNPs Ms Lai last state election.
      The fear generated about the indochinese was completely unwarranted.
      In time , the current hysteria will seem just as insane.

    • Slim says:

      08:13am | 16/06/11

      Erick - I think you are confusing your 90%s. 90% is the proportion of boat arrivals who are found to be genuine refugees. We lock asylum seekers up, remember They do not receive welfare payments. Even those granted protection visas are ineligible for centrelink and medicare payments. But as me old Mum used to say, never let facts get in the way of your prejudices.

    • Gregg says:

      08:37am | 16/06/11

      @Chongy,
      ” I’m sure you’ll recall the exact same claims were made about the indochinese “boat people “
      I recall that is utter bullshit and there is one huge difference.
      The Indochinese as you refer to what were mostly Vietnamese were people who took to the seas themselves at the end of the Vietnam war, some heading for hongkong, others being badly treated on making landing in Malaysia and none were using people smugglers.

    • rb says:

      08:37am | 16/06/11

      I usually skip the rubbish that is attached to Erick says. It is a constant flow of anger and hatred. So sad to be you.

      Dear Punch, where is the ignore button.

    • Warren says:

      08:54am | 16/06/11

      So an asylum seeker who arrives by through a regular channel (i.e. an aeroplane) is a genuine refugee, while one who arrives by boat is a bludger, destined to spend their life on welfare.

      That’s the problem with channelling Pauline Hanson. It turns you into a genuine idiot.

    • non-warmist says:

      10:28am | 16/06/11

      @Erick is right.  They’re not “our refugees”.

    • Don Draper says:

      11:36am | 16/06/11

      There is absolutely no comparison between the nauseating and heartbreakingly callous cruelty of the live animal trade, and a bunch of petulant, bullying, would-be-burdens to Australia’s social security mechanism (the working taxpayer).

      Dumb and totally spurious analogy.

    • Zaf says:

      01:56pm | 16/06/11

      [As for cattle - don’t you think it’s insulting to compare them to boat people?]

      Australian cattle are honorary whites, so the comparison with boat people is right away invalid.

      I can’t believe I had to say that.  Jeez, you gotta spell stuff out for some people.

    • dovif says:

      02:29pm | 16/06/11

      There was no refugee problem after the Pacific Solution. (ie refugee reduced to between 20 and 200 a year

      And then some stupid do-gooder decided to change the law and invite the triads and crime gangs to make lots of money (people smuggler), so the problem should be named after the idiot who penned it. ie the Gillard Problem.

      Then Gillard figured out what she actually done and had to come up with many solutions to The Gillard’s problem including

      The east timor solution
      The indonesian solution
      The PNG solution
      The Malaysian solution; and
      The Christmas Island Solution

      Dispite imagining so many solutions to the Gillard’s problem, Gillard had not been able to find anyone who might help her to solve Gillard’s problem.

      If only Gillard did not cause the problem in the first place

    • dovif says:

      02:32pm | 16/06/11

      Zaf

      You do know that cows are brown don’t you, there are no albino cows

    • egg says:

      02:50pm | 16/06/11

      @ erick & non-warmist, they don’t have to be “our refugees”, they just have to be “refugees”. and neither of you can comment on their refugee status, as you have no idea who they are, where they’ve been or why they’re here.

      i hope you need international assistance one day, and end up in a country with a refugee policy just like ours.

    • carol says:

      03:11pm | 16/06/11

      @egg But Australia treats refugees extremely generously! You’ve been in touch with recent arrivals, haven’t you?  You don’t just talk the talk, do you?  On the ground support for refugees is what you do?
      Great treatment, egg.  That’s why they want to come here.

    • bswan says:

      03:19pm | 16/06/11

      @Erick Absolutely right.
      And any person upset by an illegal entrant/boatperson/refugee, sewing up his lips in detention,  should be campaigning for Billet a Refugee.  Then let’s see how many change their tune.

    • Markus says:

      03:22pm | 16/06/11

      “and neither of you can comment on their refugee status, as you have no idea who they are, where they’ve been or why they’re here”
      Neither do you, so by your logic you have no right to comment either.
      Come to think of it, the Federal government don’t know who they are either, which is why they are in a detention centre in the first place.

    • Gregg says:

      03:30pm | 16/06/11

      @Warren,
      ” So an asylum seeker who arrives by through a regular channel (i.e. an aeroplane) is a genuine refugee, while one who arrives by boat is a bludger, destined to spend their life on welfare.

      That’s the problem with channelling Pauline Hanson. It turns you into a genuine idiot. “

      Perhaps you are associating more closely with being an idiot than Pauline has ever been for it makes no difference to asylum seeking whether someone arrives by boat or air other than someone coming in on a plane has obtained a visa to visit Australia, usually a visitors/tourist visa though some on student visas may also want to stay and attempt claiming asylum.
      That such people have also kept their passport as well as having a visa would allow them to be identified more quickly and have an application for asylum considered more quickly than someone coming in from wherever without any documentation.

      The air traveller has a valid visa for being in Australia and if an asylum application is made while on the visa, the visa remains current until such time as the asylum application or their visa extension is considered.
      As it turns out, the majority of asylum applications by air arrivees do get rejected.

      All asylum seekers are not refugees until such time as an application has been considered and their case accepted.
      Asylum seekers arriving courtesy of people smugglers without documentation require much more processing and additional resources and costs are well documented as is the risks to Australians and disruption to the normal humanitarian visas processing identified.

    • non-warmist says:

      04:17pm | 16/06/11

      @egg They put my reply in the wrong place.
      However, @Gregg explains much better than I

    • Zaf says:

      04:25pm | 16/06/11

      @ dovif

      During the Third Reich the Japanese were honorary Aryans.  Even the albinos among them.  Jews were not.  Even the albinos among them.

    • acotrel says:

      08:48pm | 16/06/11

      @Gregg When the Vietnamese boat people arrived the Liberal Party could never play political football with them.  The Liberal Party and the National Civic Council/DLP were the intiators of our involvement in Vietnam, and primarily responsible for the perceptions amongst the boat people that Australia was a safe haven.  AND they wre mainly catholics like the DLP members. The Australian public was still paranoid, but the objections were submerged from view

    • cybacaT says:

      05:02pm | 17/06/11

      Erick
      Great post - you hit the nail on the head and addressed the REAL issue.
      We ALL care about refugees. We all want to do something.  We all want them to be safe.  We all want to support the most needy.

      Your point is clear and true - the most needy are missing out due to others sneaking in - not out of need, but out of choice to come here.  A choice the REAL needy don’t get to make thanks to do-gooders who don’t think through the practical repercussions of their opinions.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      01:04pm | 19/06/11

      If they are genuine refugees who cares how they got here.

    • Dave says:

      06:12am | 16/06/11

      If we weren’t meant to eat animals then why are they made of meat?

    • Budz says:

      07:30am | 16/06/11

      Same reason you are made of meat, can we eat you?

    • Gord Gotch says:

      12:09pm | 16/06/11

      Geez
      Anyone who did’nt see Bev’s carrot screaming as a joke is a bit of a sorry excuse why do people abuse and vilify before they have even made an attempt to read the finer points of some ones posting.

      Bev personally I prefer the Banshee like shriek of a good potato over the whimpering scream of a carrot but I respect you view nonetheless

    • SDH says:

      12:31pm | 16/06/11

      Budz, a croc or shark will eat you and in do so kill you.  At least cattle are killed first.  But my point is, all meat is fair game.  We have incisors to enable us to eat meat and a digestive system to ensure it is processed.  If we weren’t suppose to eat meat we would have been developed with a similar biological make-up to a cow.

    • Barbara rendell says:

      01:57pm | 16/06/11

      Dave you are a cretin

    • Mike the Meat Eating Man says:

      02:18pm | 16/06/11

      Dave, you are a legend mate.  I would happily join you for a chateaubriand my friend.  Airlines should have “special dietary needs” menus that also cater for “carnivorous”, just like they do all these vegetarians that want special treatment when they go round to people’s houses for dinner who aren’t vego’s.

    • dovif says:

      02:41pm | 16/06/11

      Dave

      I agree mate, do you know how many plants those vegetarians kill a year?

      One minute the plants are alive, breathing in CO2 and releasing Oxygen, and helping us fight global warming.

      The next minute they are mass slaughtered to create food for the vegetarians.

      Global warming is very real, and it is all the vegetarian’s fault

    • Bev says:

      02:49pm | 16/06/11

      @Gord Gotch
      You forgot to mention beetroots bleeding all over the place.
      Then again nettles fight back with a clear hands off signal but we still make nettle soup from them

    • Atticus says:

      03:25pm | 16/06/11

      I’m all for humane processing of animals but banning live exports is putting the same treatment onto the families and businesses that are in the industry as well as the Indonesions who will go without meat.  I think a more pragmatic solution (providing Indonesian abbattoirs with suitable equipment) is more humane for both humans and animals.  I find it strange people hold greater concern for mis-treatment of animals than humans - have you ever seen how humanely a Lion kills a buffalo in the wild?..  Not very.

    • Christine85 says:

      10:09am | 17/06/11

      @Mike the meat eating man and dovif: Fortunately all you carnivores are likely to keel over from heart disease or nutritional deficiencies soon, clearing the way for the more moderate omnivores and vegos coz you clearly don’t eat a single vegetable, lol. And I don’t call a garden salad at someone else’s house ‘special treatment’ I call that a healthy side for everyone and a main for the vego with ommnivous friends.

    • kc says:

      04:21pm | 17/06/11

      DAVE. you are a first class moron.

    • Mike the Meat Eating Man says:

      12:21pm | 19/06/11

      Christine, you are more likely to keel over from starvation because all the cows, sheep and pigs will eat all your vegetarian food to get fat for us to have big juicy cuts of meat.  ha ha ha.

    • Vegetarian says:

      04:59pm | 19/06/11

      @dovif - Ready to be educated, oh smart meat eating man? Vegetarians plant MORE plants, farming them for food. So if it wasn’t for us, those EXTRA plants wouldn’t be there to begin with… And all those cows, chickens and other animals you farm to slaughter for food release MORE greenhouse gases than all the world’s cars put together. The meat industry is the main source of global warming. Now sit down, boy.

    • Mike the Meat Eating Man says:

      07:06pm | 19/06/11

      Christine, P.S. - your starter for 10 points - what killed Linda McCartney ?  Where are all the stories about any famous meat eaters dying if meat is so bad ?  No, didn’t think they were any famous historical accounts !

    • atthepub says:

      06:14am | 16/06/11

      Go the vegan! Why kill to eat if you don’t have to?

    • Bev says:

      07:11am | 16/06/11

      What about those screaming carrots when you pull them out of the ground? Do you wear ear muffs and avert your eyes?

    • Benn Chopping says:

      08:20am | 16/06/11

      Bev.  Stupid bloody comment.  Carrots and all other plants have no central nervous system.  They are incapable of feeling pain.  But I guess justify your choice to kill for food in whatever way you can if it helps you sleep at night.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      08:47am | 16/06/11

      @Bev

      When they start taking school groups to abattoirs so that people can see where their food comes from and how it is obtained you might have a point.

      If you believe that the suffering of an animal (which includes humans) can be equated to picking vegetables you might want to be tested for mad cow disease.

      Is that really the best you’ve got . . . and you posted it?!

    • Mouse says:

      08:56am | 16/06/11

      That’s why onions make you cry when you cut them up, so you can feel their pain!

    • DH says:

      09:02am | 16/06/11

      Bev, you’ve been watching too much Harry Potter.

    • Tim says:

      09:16am | 16/06/11

      Benn Chopping,
      pain is the only thing stopping you killing animals?
      So you would be OK if we anesthetized animals and then killed them while they were unconscious. No pain.
      Why is plant life any less valuable than animal life?
      Or do you just justify your decisions by whatever makes you feel better?

    • Bev says:

      09:29am | 16/06/11

      @Benn Chopping @Blind Freddy Bit touchy are we? No sense of humour?

    • Blind Freddy says:

      10:13am | 16/06/11

      @Bev

      Oh….you are a funny one. What a barrel of laughs you are. I consider myself chastised.

      P.S. You need a laugh-track in the background so we know when you are being funny (like a crappy sit com) - its too hard to tell from content alone.

    • Tchom says:

      10:14am | 16/06/11

      @Bev

      The response to your comment is waaay too funny. How anyone could interpret that without irony is staggering. Maybe humor is directly related to a person’s iron/protein intake?

    • Benn Chopping says:

      10:32am | 16/06/11

      I prefer not to kill innocent creatures to satisfy a false dietary “need” I have no need to justify my descision.  Animals don’t die for my diet.  Always it is the carnivores that come up with the spurious arguments.  Plants are not sentient beings and have no central nervous system.  The agonised squealing of a pig being butchered will haunt all my days. I justify my descision Tim in that I won’t be party to needless death and wasteful consumption that eating meat entails.

    • Realistic Views says:

      10:44am | 16/06/11

      It’s disgusting that humans an farm a living animal just for it’s flesh so people an go to bed with a full tummy, only to eat the flesh off a different animal the next day. I really hope they start farming humans one of these days so people like Bev knows what it’s like to be the food she ate for so long. Selfish, disgusting people.

    • Tim says:

      10:55am | 16/06/11

      Ah Benn Chopping,
      so any argument you don’t agree with must be spurious?

      You didn’t answer the question, is pain the only thing stopping you eating meat?
      And why is having a central nervous system important?

      You kill life to sustain yourself just like everyone else, you just define special forms of life that you deem more important, just like every meat eater does.

      You don’t have to justify your decision to anyone but realise the fact that your no better or more moral than everyone else.

    • Seanr says:

      11:15am | 16/06/11

      @Ben Chopping, so I take it you don’t kill flies or mosquito’s either?

      Also I think Bev made a valid comment even if it was in jest. Just because at present we can’t ‘hear plants screaming’ doesn’t mean they don’t feel pain.

    • Tchom says:

      11:35am | 16/06/11

      But… but… if we’re going to hold animals to that same standard of morality as us, does that mean we have to stop animals eating each other?

    • Bev says:

      11:49am | 16/06/11

      @Seanr
      Yes science could not conceive of bacteria surviving in the hell of a nuclear reactor but they do. Neither could they of a life forms which exists at great depths in the ocean around volcanic chimneys whose make up is alien to every other life form on this planet.  Nature keeps on throwing up surprises.

    • Snake says:

      12:03pm | 16/06/11

      @Benn Chopping: Yes it is a fabricated need. We don’t really need meat or protein or iron. In fact we don’t need vitamin B12 either.

      Did you know that parents can have their child taken away from them for restricting their diets to the vegan variety? What does that tell you? If something as relaxed as child protection laws think it’s not OK, then chances are it’s far worse than not OK.

      Notice the common ailment amongst vegans… It is a vitamin B12 deficiency. Do you know why you are deficient in that vitamin? Because it is only found in meat. Do you know how they get it into those little capsules that you take as a multi vitamin? That’s right, from animal blood.

      If you want to be a vegan because you don’t like killing animals, that is all well and good, but to say that we don’t need to eat any meat is a lie. To say that eating meat is wasteful is also a lie. Your example of a squealing pig is ironic. Ironic because a pig is perhaps the most well utilised animal there is. Everything from the blood and skin, to the bones and hooves, oh and of course the pork.

      Keep your faggoty eating habits, that’s fine. More meat for me. It is sad though that you will never experience eating a properly cooked, high grade steak. I guess salad will have to do you.

    • Gary says:

      12:09pm | 16/06/11

      I realise Benn Chopping may be a troll, however: have you, Ben, ever lived on, or anywhere near a farm?  Any farm.  If you have ever consumed wine, animals have died for your diet.  Vineyards shoot bird pests.  The harvester also ‘harvests’ MOG - matter other than grape.  This can be lizards, bird nest (complete with chicks), snakes, etc.

      All cereal crops bait and kill mice, rabbits, foxes, etc.  I’m guessing you eat vegetables?  These farms bait and shoot as well.  Wombats, birds, etc.

      To sustain yourself on this earth, you have killed thousands of creatures.  Vegans have animals killed so they can eat vegan.  They just don’t eat the animals which have been killed. 

      Yay for them.

    • Al says:

      12:22pm | 16/06/11

      Sorry to tell you atthepub, but every time a Vegan eats they kill.

      They kill soy plants, they kill fruits. they kill vegetables.

      Just because its not an animal doesn’t mean its not alive!

      This is one reason I have no problems eating meat (or killing animals to eat which I have also done).

    • n_dude says:

      12:40pm | 16/06/11

      @gary - Those who are Jains won’t eat anything that has required some sort of killing to be involved including vegetables and fruit. I think we can cll them the pure vegetarians.

    • Mike the Meat Eating Man says:

      02:20pm | 16/06/11

      Bev, you are on the money and right.  How do people know they have no CNS….is science SO advanced that the lack of something is considered “proof” it doesn’t exist ?!

    • dovif says:

      02:58pm | 16/06/11

      Think about the childrens, you heartless bastard vegetarians

      One minute the plants are alive, breathing in CO2 and releasing Oxygen, and helping us fight global warming.

      The next minute they are mass slaughtered to create food for the vegetarians.

      Global warming is very real, and it is all the vegetarian’s fault

    • ausspud says:

      03:13pm | 16/06/11

      the only vegies i like is seeing it in the bin after ive finished my stake or in a fat juicy hamburger.(drool).

    • Elphaba says:

      03:22pm | 16/06/11

      I still don’t understand why veganism is more environmentally friendly than meat eating.

      What happens to all the cows once people stop eating them?  Do they roam free?  Sounds like an environmental nightmare to me…

    • Bev says:

      03:29pm | 16/06/11

      @Realistic Views
      Maybe leg of me is quite succulent and my BBQ ribs are to die for.
      While we are at the top of the food chain we will never know will we?

    • MD says:

      04:06pm | 16/06/11

      @ snake:

      You’re right that vegans get B12 deficiency but it doesn’t come only from meat. In fact the source of all B12 in nature is, directly or indirectly, from bacteria. Natural sources are foods that come from animals including meat, fish, dairy products and poultry. The supplements mostly available are synthetic (eg cyanocobalamin), the more expensive kind also available come from bacteria but have no proven advantages. B12 is an interesting compound and contains cobalt. I love hamburgers myself, but vegetables have to be stunned before I can eat them.

    • T-rex rwwarr says:

      04:16pm | 16/06/11

      @Ben Chopping.

      I can see you now, a thin, pale finger striking the keyboard listlessly, enraged by the carnivorous cretins that do what you wish you could. humans have been eating meat for millions of years (4000 if your religious) and yet you, weak willed and bleeding heart cannot bear to do the same and chastise anyone who can. The world is full of carnivores and omnivores my freind, you can’t fight them, they are nutritionally balanced and healthy and your tired little girl arms just don’t have the strength for it—now tell me about how your a triathlete who works as a sky-diving instructor.

    • steve says:

      06:36pm | 16/06/11

      And the angel of the Lord came unto me,
      snatching me up from my
      place of slumber,
      and took me on high,
      and higher still until we
      moved in the spaces betwixt the air itself.
      and he bore me unto a
      vast farmland of our own midwest,
      and as we descended cries of
      impending doom rose from the soil.
      one thousand, nay, a million
      voices full of fear.
      and terror possessed me then.
      and I begged,

      “Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?”
      And the angel said unto me,
      “These are the cries of the carrots,
      the cries of the carrots.
      You see, reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day
      and to them it is the holocaust.”
      And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
      like the tears of one millions terrified brothers
      and roared,
      “Hear me now,
      I have seen the light,
      they have a consciousness,
      they have a life,
      they have a soul.
      damn you!
      let the rabbits wear glasses,
      save our brothers…can I get an amen?
      can I get a hallelujah? thank you, Jesus.

      life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on…
      this is necessary

    • Nevyn says:

      01:14pm | 17/06/11

      Vegetarian food is fantastic stuff…. goes perfect with a slice of cow…

    • Dave says:

      04:37pm | 17/06/11

      @ Benn Chopping…..so I’m guessing none of your clothes are made of leather? Your belt, jacket, shoes, wallet? What about the furniture you use, none of the chairs are leather are they? Your car interior….no leather in there? If not then surely you’re nothing but a hypocrite. Do you swat a fly? If so why is one life more important to you than another?

    • Dr Lecter says:

      02:55pm | 18/06/11

      @Realistic View: I hope they start farming humans too, then I could eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

    • Jo says:

      12:31pm | 19/06/11

      Benn Chopping:  We went on a school camp excursion to an abattoir when I was ten, with a class of nine and ten year olds.  We did get to choose if we wanted to go in, and the whole class did.  Saw the freshly skinned carcasses coming in hanging upside down, and the offal being sorted and processed, and I was picking bits of I don’t know what out of my sneakers for days. 
      Yep, I still ate meat, and I recall, no kid said no to rissoles for dinner that night.
      But then, we were all country kids who understood the basics of farming and understood even at that age that to eat animals they have to die first.

    • Realistic Views says:

      05:01pm | 19/06/11

      @Dr Lecter - wow, you’d rate my meat that highly? I’m flattered, thanks mate! Because I wouldn’t even see your meat fit for my dog… It would probably just be ground up into fish food.

    • Chrissy says:

      05:14pm | 19/06/11

      @ Benn Chopping: Plants do have something similar to a central nervous system. Scientists have proven that plants do send electrical signals along branches etc. These signals are similar to the same electrical signals our nervous systems uses to function. For example, tests have proven that exposing insect catching plants to the chemical “ether” puts the plant to sleep by inhibiting the electrical signals as it would to you or I. Thus the plant is unable to close and capture the insect when the trap is triggered because the electrical signal is blocked. Scientists have also proven that cutting a piece off a live plant cause electrical spikes along the plants branches etc. Animals bleed blood, plants bleed sap etc which coincedently is a defense mechanism against bacreium etc, and also serves to suggest the plant has “awareness” of its injuries. Plants are living organisms as much as animals are. Its silly to suggest otherwise. Just because they cant scream doesnt make it ok to suggest people who eat meat are barbaric.

    • acotrel says:

      06:20am | 16/06/11

      It’s a sad fact that the Gillard government reasts to the negativity of the LNP.  The sensible way to treat asylum seekers is to speedily process their claims, and integrate them into the community in public housing in regional areas.  If the government ever did that, they’d have to counter a cynical campaign from poisonous people in the Liberal Party.  The current combination of parties in our parliament is a disaster which prevents progress. When at least one third of parliament is comprised of independents, things will be much better.  And my sources amongst the blue collar workers tell me that will be the likely outcome of the next election!

    • watty says:

      08:14am | 16/06/11

      Last I heard there was a very long waiting list of Australian nationals for public housing

      .as for the"poisonous people” in the Liberal Party may I jog your memory

      since the 1990s when the Paul Keating ALP government enforced a policy of mandatory detention of unauthorised arrivals, non-citizens arriving by boat without a valid visa were detained until they were either granted a visa, or deported

    • Bev says:

      08:55am | 16/06/11

      acotrel says:06:20am | 16/06/11

      The sensible way to treat asylum seekers is to speedily process their claims, and integrate them into the community in public housing in regional areas.

      Great Idea Not.  If you hadn’t noticed rural towns are emptying out. The young are leaving in drove to find work in the cities. There is no work, little infrastructure and little or no housing. Public housing is non existant.  So you are suggesting we pour money into rural public housing and infrastructure so these people can sit out there in the dust and draw the dole. Isn’t that part of the problem with Aboriginals?

      “Regonal Australia used to provide 90 per cent of Australia’s export
      income, with wool about half; it now provides about 11 per cent.
      Farm-based employment has similarly declined, from 28 per cent
      of total employment in 1933 to about 4 per cent today”.
      http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/katter-calls-for-nation-to-listen-20110615-1g3su.html

    • carol says:

      10:41am | 16/06/11

      @acotrel   LOL “my sources amongst the blue collar workers” LOL

    • Leopard says:

      10:46am | 16/06/11

      @acotrel.  Poisonous people in which Party?  Wasn’t PM Whitlam the man who didn’t want the Vietnamese refugees?

    • Bev says:

      12:20pm | 16/06/11

      poisonous people = liberal blue collar workers = Trade Unions
      If my memory serves me right it was Cauldwell (labour) who instigated the White Australia Policy. While Menzies (Liberal) abolished it.  The push to bring in the policy was driven by the Trade Unions.

    • ausspud says:

      03:20pm | 16/06/11

      whats that got to do with meat,unless u want us to eat the asylum seekers.

    • non-warmist says:

      05:37pm | 16/06/11

      @Lord Acotrel says: speedy processing in regional areas is sensible.  How many thousand in his own region? 
      His Lordship chats with “the blue collar workers” - they tell him the likely outcome of the next election.
      And there we have it!

    • Don of Adel says:

      10:36pm | 16/06/11

      @alcotrel - So you wish for them to go into community housing?. There is I believe a 7 - 10 year wait at this time for a resident of Australia to go into a Housing Commission home. Are you saying that those who have waited patiently should be told bad luck, a so called refugee has taken your spot. Wait another couple of years and try again ?  In regards to your blue collar contacts - strange, but all the blue collar workers I know are so disillusioned with Labor and the Independents that they will never vote for them again. Currently Labor/Greens/Independents in the Federal arena are poisoning themselves against a lot of their traditional voters.

    • Trex Rwarr says:

      09:25am | 17/06/11

      @Bev
      Haha, your wide eyed morality is as funny as it is dangerous, seriously. let’s open the borders and flood the country with these people, then when this country turns into the one they just escaped then who do we blame.. you? and how many people do you think this country’s fragile ecosystem can sustain? if you remember, we we’re all pretty close to dying of thirst not long ago, it will come again… but if it helps millions of people whos governments have failed them then what the hell, lets destroy this country, it’s animals and ecosystem so you can pretend you deserve the “humanity award”... when I see starving kids in Africa, I blame their government, and I blame them, for having children when there’s no food to support them, honestly, these people breed like rabbits when their all starving and dying of aids, darwins theory at work I would say. yes I know, i’m positively evil. get over it, your too soft and PC motivated to even think realistically anymore and the big picture escapes you.

    • Silly snake says:

      04:14pm | 17/06/11

      Oh snake you are a silly fool, children are not removed from their family if they are raised on a vegan diet.
      Clearly this is ‘part’ of a story you have clung to for some time to assist you in your justification.
      If anyone believes this story i would encourage you to contact a family lawyer in your jurisdiction to help you to clarify this matter.

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      06:45am | 16/06/11

      The ‘DP’s’ who came here from a devastated Europe in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s went on to build the Snowy Mountain’s Scheme and enrich Australia.

      What will we all do when the price of electricity becomes exorbitant and we can’t afford to run those big double door fridge/freezers and we have to go and buy freshly killed meat every day or two? wink

    • Bev says:

      09:44am | 16/06/11

      The ‘DP’s’ who came here from a devastated Europe in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s went on to build the Snowy Mountain’s Scheme and enrich Australia.

      True.  However modern construction methods don’t require hords of people with shovels and in any case a great many of thes people were tradesmen and had skills which were required.  Few boat people have needed skills.  Further those men were required to spend 2 years doing whatever and wherever the government decreed.  You can just imagine the bleeding hearts response.  Placards, demonstrations and cries of inhuman treatment, indentured labour, slavery etc.

    • Leopard says:

      10:49am | 16/06/11

      @Bev mentions skills.  Exactly!

    • Huey says:

      06:50am | 16/06/11

      Sarah, I was raised on a farm (mixed dairy, spuds,pigs) and have no illusions about the connections between death and nice cuts of meat. We ran a small flock of “killer” sheep, chooks,geese etc. We also trapped,ferreted and shot rabbits. Caught fish and eels. All of these things were grist to our mill. We had no mystic connections with these animals or any illusions about fluffy bunnies.
      I suppose they would be classed as free range these days. Now the point…having visited some factory farms (pig and chook) and being familiar with feedlots..you are right, factory farms are abominations and must be so in the eyes of anyone who objects to animal cruelty.Four Corners should expose them and the hypocrisy that lets us pretend they are not cruel.

    • Gregg says:

      07:11am | 16/06/11

      Whilst 4corners showed some gruesome footage Sarah that would have affected many people, I’m not too sure whether your article contains more generalisations or untruths for while the generalised public may be dismayed, it is more about the cruelty shown than the live export trade itself.
      International trade means needs of many people being met including not just feeds but employment for quite a few Australians.

      The government is full of knee jerkers and even so with asylum seekers infinitum and note there is a difference between an asylum seeker using a people smuggling process and a government/UNHCR endorsed refugee program as part of the humanitarian policy, a policy that allowed people in need to be offered temporary refuge or to be considered for more permanent settlement as with Albanians who could have applied.
      And under such circumstances, all refugees usually travel by air these days.

      Malaysia may have its standards of dealing with asylum seekers/refugees and most Australians would not agree with those standards whilst also understanding that they have many more to deal with and many of their own people probably living in what we would see as survival mode, both aspects representative of global overcrowding as is reflected in UNHCR numbers globally, the distress of many peoples in many countries and cross border movements.
      Australia is fortunate that we do not have any land borders and for most of us we have a reasonable living standard but the country is not without issues that need to be continually addressed and a cost structure that sees many here also struggling to eke out an existence.

      The cost of meat, eggs poultry and even fruit/vegetables would all be significantly higher if it were not for factory farming and processes in abbatoirs most would rather not envisage.
      As it is, just check out your supermarket meat section and you might be surprised at how much time people spend looking for a reduced price bargain and there is always a substantial premium for free range eggs.
      The farmers are not too happy with milk prices or thoughts of fruit/vegetable imports but then if we had milk produced from hand milking into a pail while giving Maybelle a friendly pat, you would not be seeing $1/L. prices either.

      It is all about numbers to be fed and what needs to happen to do that just as there is a need to assimilate refugees into our society in the hope that they can become productive members of it.
      You may have noticed there are extraordinary costs involved in housing and no doubt feeding asylum seekers, much more so than with the UNHCR preferred arangement of running refugee camps as close to home countries as possible.

      The opposition when in government provided temporary protection visas for asylum seekers, Nauru being used before the facility at Xmas Island was available and the use of TPVs saw numbers there reduced dramatically - stopping the boats as it is called and so no small wonder the opposition proposes policy that the government revoked as another knee jerk reaction and again we see the result.
      Senator Hanson and the opposition are to be applauded in their efforts to have the governments plans stopped.

    • Mick S says:

      07:25am | 16/06/11

      Animals are killed so we can eat them.
      It was ever thus.
      Look at your teeth, you have canines for a reason, why attempt to argue with evolution?
      Look at the earliest human expressions of culture.  You will not find cave paintings of lettuce leaves.
      Vegans should be eaten as an example of what happens if you ignore your biology and your culture.

    • nihonin says:

      08:33am | 16/06/11

      Would eating a Vegan count as mixed vegetables or a salad in your diet?

    • Mouse says:

      09:04am | 16/06/11

      Depends on whether you have them hot or cold.

    • DH says:

      09:12am | 16/06/11

      Mick, that’s brilliant. You argue we should eat meat because that’s what our ancestors did way back when. Then you say we shouldn’t argue with evolution. Which is it? Or did evolution pass you by while you were playing with your club?

      Sure, we needed meat to evolve. Nobody is arguing there. Sure, it’s tasty, so why not continue to eat it? Well, fair enough for some people. But how about we recognise that we have evolved sufficiently to do it without the needless barbaric torture first?

    • Budz says:

      09:15am | 16/06/11

      Culture based on historical practices? So you agree with slavery too?

      And yes we have canines to eat meat, because we have for thousands of years. But what happens when we evolve to a level of intelligence where we can empathise with other living animals, which include humans? Is it OK to kill another living animal to feed ourselves when we don’t have to?

    • Ripa says:

      09:36am | 16/06/11

      @nihonin

      Diet wise, I think vegans would have to be counted as “cereals”, their spot in shopping centers should be right next to the “fruit loops” boxes.

    • Tim says:

      10:20am | 16/06/11

      Budz,
      why is killing animals not OK but killing plant life is OK?
      Maybe if you evolved some more you would realise that all life is important and you would stop eating altogether.

    • Mick S says:

      11:07am | 16/06/11

      @DH Yes, our ancestors ate meat and we are evolved to eat meat, there is no contradiction there.  We have not “evolved” out of eating meat, there are no significant physical differences between you and earliest homo sapiens.  You have the same teeth, digestive system and need for proteins and amino acids.  As for “needless barbaric torture” that is more of a cultural/religious issue, and I had not addressed that at all.  If you feel nicer killing “humanely” then do so. 

      @Budz “Is it OK to kill another living animal to feed ourselves?”  YES.
      Without a doubt.  You may as well attempt to have vegetarian dogs

    • Budz says:

      11:08am | 16/06/11

      @Tim: The reason being animals are sentient beings. Have you ever owned a pet Tim? Could you ever consider killing and eating them? Why not? Is it because you have an emotional connection to that animal?

      And I;m assuming you don’t think that eating humans is right? Then how about chimps that share over 95% of the same DNA as us? They also have peronalites and a right to life. Where do you draw the line? And if you had to kill the animals you ate, would you do it? I know a lot of people wouldn’t.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      11:27am | 16/06/11

      @Tim

      Hey. I get the joke because Bev explained it above. You whacky clowns! Oh . . . sorry, you aren’t joking (shuffles off awkwardly).

      @Bev

      Tim didn’t get your joke either.

    • Warren says:

      11:28am | 16/06/11

      “DH says:Mick, that’s brilliant. You argue we should eat meat because”


      Dont talk about evolution if you dont know what your talking about.
      You are suggesting that those that dont eat meat are just the next evolutionary step when infact, bilogically we are identical to the Homo Sapiens that left Africa 100,000 years ago. What you should make clear is that you believe you are more culturaly cultivated, not evolved than we primitive meat eaters. I would however be interested to measure both brain size and bone density of you decendents in 10 generations supposing “biological” evolution doesn’t pass them by.

    • EM says:

      12:05pm | 16/06/11

      You can’t eat Vegans mate, they’re too bitter…

    • Tim says:

      12:07pm | 16/06/11

      Budz,
      people do eat dogs and cats that we would consider pets.
      Are pretty animals more worthy of your humanity?

      Animals should not be subjected to cruelty but this does not mean we shouldn’t eat them. Why does sentience give you the right not to be eaten? Do you expect animals to not eat each other?
      I personally draw the line of what i will eat at humans, you draw it at all animals. I guess you could call me speciest.
      I wouldn’t eat endangered animals simply because I believe we should maintain biological diversity and I probably wouldn’t eat chimp because I doubt they would taste very good.
      I’d be fine with personally killing animals for my food and have done so before. Do you pick all the vegetables or mill all the grain you eat?

    • HappyCynic says:

      12:18pm | 16/06/11

      @Budz

      Chimps also eat meat, they even declare war on rival families and the winning family kills and eats the baby chimps of the other family and appear to do this just for the fun of it.  Humans are also known to engage in cannibalism, mostly it’s only if food is short but not in all societies.

      Life is cruel, the strong survive, the weak get eaten.  This rule is true of all of the natural world.  Get used to it.  Morality, humanity, sentience and all that junk is just a way of creating a little cohesion in our social heirarchies.  We’re just a social animal, nothing special about us except that we’re the strong ones at this point in the evolution of life on Earth.

    • Mike says:

      12:51pm | 17/06/11

      Sorry Mick S, but you are quite wrong.

      There are very good reasons to not eat meat. For a start it is grossly inefficient. We grow crops only to waste most of that crop by feeding livestock, most of which are wasted to provide a small amount of meat, most of is then wasted by the human digestive system because we can’t digest it properly. In the future it is VERY unlikely that even 1st world countries will be able to consume meat at the levels we currently do. The 3rd world has never been able to consume meat in the quantities we do for this very reason.

      And I hate to spoil the “we were meant to eat meat” party but this isn’t entirely true. Yes, we evolved from hunters with a diet heavy in meat but evolved considerably from that point. And we only really became successful as a species when we pretty much stopped eating meat and became farmers. And stopped living in caves. Eggs and particularly milk are much, much better sources of animal protein than meat of any kind. Mostly meat just sits in our bowels and gives us cancer.

    • Chrissy says:

      05:37pm | 19/06/11

      @ Warren: You shouldnt talk about evolution if you dont know what you are talking about. We are NOT the same biologically as the homo sapiens who left africa some hundred or so thousand years ago. Evolution does not happen over night, its not like you wake up and hey presto you have a new species. Evolution takes a very long time to happen. Since we left Africa we have evolved a great deal in such a short space of time, think of different skin colours, hair colours, eye colours to name just a few, the list does go on and on. Evolution is basically the result of a mutation which proved beneficial and as such it is passed on to the descendants. We as humans are making our own changes to evolutuion. Think racehorses, a few hundred years ago there was no such thin as a thouroughbred. Think dogs, only ten thousand years ago the only dog species on earth was the wolf but we bred them to have certain characteristics we like and now have 1000’s of dog breeds…...............

    • Maddles says:

      08:11am | 16/06/11

      Exactly.Well said Sarah.

    • non-warmist says:

      11:27am | 16/06/11

      Sarah can stop fretting -  the Malaysian deal is off

    • Whispered tones says:

      04:24pm | 17/06/11

      Mike, you are wise and your email is very right, people really need to stop using the “we were meant to argument” there are a number of things we used to do and thank goodness they are only mentioned in whispered tones now.

    • NicoleG says:

      08:14am | 16/06/11

      Help me out here. Is this ‘article’ about meat or refugees? Jesus, I think you and that Tanja Whatsherface are in a dead heat for the biggest load of shite article award. Now you owe me 3 freaking minutes!

    • John Smythe says:

      09:08am | 16/06/11

      *looks for the like button*

    • Sal says:

      10:42am | 16/06/11

      Not too smart are you Nicole
      We treat Asylum seekers in much the same way as we treat out cattle.
      Out of sight, out of mind.

    • Elphaba says:

      10:56am | 16/06/11

      @NicoleG, I think the solution is clear.

      We need to be eating asylum seekers.

    • Seanr says:

      11:16am | 16/06/11

      LOL my first thought as well Nicole was that she was trying to outdo Tanja with ‘how to present a convoluted argument’

    • NicoleG says:

      11:21am | 16/06/11

      I think you’re on to something Elphaba!

      And Sal, thank you for you insightful input. Now please excuse me while I pull out my violin.

    • AdamC says:

      11:50am | 16/06/11

      NicoleG and others, thanks for these comments. They have saved me the effort of reading the article. I am contemplating a class action lawsuit against the Punch for expsing me (and other Punch readers) to that awful article by ‘Tanja Whatserface’ yesterday. Is insulting someone’s intelligence grounds for legal action?

    • fairsfair says:

      08:39am | 16/06/11

      “The opposition will support Hanson-Young out of sheer contrarianism rather than concern for human rights.”

      Really? I for one don’t agree with the “solution” and it isn’t becuase Gillard presented it. There is a difference between creating disincentive for people to arrive on our shores and loading them in coaster bus and running them out of town (where we have no control over their ongoign treatment while their future is in limbo).

      Same used to happen in Cairns at the end of every wet season. All the drunks from far regional centres were loaded on a bus supplied by the mayor and taken back to the missions. It served a purpose for both parties, but did it ever really address the reasons why they decended on Cairns in the first place? No. So now the bus has stopped running because it was viewed to be “non-PC” and the drunks are here 365.

      It is a significant crock of sh*t and I personally think this is all a farce. The Labor governement can not possibly think that this is a viable solution? Particularly given their strong criticism of the Pacific Solution. I think it is all a front so that the general public believe that they are willing to go against the greens on some topics. It is all all part of the show.

    • JohnB says:

      09:01am | 16/06/11

      The cows Asia source elsewhere now will be treated differently to the ones our billion dollar industry were supplying?

    • JohnB says:

      10:18am | 16/06/11

      Another problem NOT fixed in the dumbest possible way by our inept government.

    • TDMJ says:

      11:51am | 16/06/11

      Cattle sourced from Australia are larger, wilder and more aggressive because they’re less accustomed to human contact - much of the cruel treatment arises because they’re so hard to handle, as the Indonesians themselves have been saying - therefore cattle sourced locally or from other countries WON’T face the same treatment ...

    • Bev says:

      12:41pm | 16/06/11

      @TDMJ
      Don’t know much about Brahman cattle do you?  Neither do I but unless you didn’t watch the 4corners program or watched it selectively they spoke to cattlemen and they talked about docile these cattle were compared to other breeds.

    • Rob says:

      06:12pm | 16/06/11

      Some cattle run in the north is pretty much run wild. ie left alone for months and then herded up for dipping/vaccines etc. Larger spreads with a lower stocking rate per acre tend to run like this

      Smaller spreads with a higher stocking rate tend to operate very differently ie the cattleman/owner who go’s out and checks on his herd daily on horseback/moterbike/4wd. Smaller properties tend to run under this model as each head of cattle is a higher % of there income and the distances involved to check the cattle are smaller.

      I can tell you from experience the second bunch of cattle are far easier to handle than the first.

      On the Brahman breed, I have no idea were your info is coming from, but in my experience they are on average of nastier temperament than your average Murry-Grey or Angus, I used to really dislike having to handle them. A little supporting evidence:
      http://www.grandin.com/references/gains.html

      The treatment the cattle were/are receiving the other end is unwarranted but to try and wash our hands of it and say we’re sending over totally docile tame cattle is to close your eye’s to how some of the larger cattle stations are run up north.

    • Robert says:

      09:06am | 16/06/11

      Selective breeding means that pigs bred in farms are only suited to that form of farming. You can’t suddenly decide that all pigs (or chickens or anything else) should be free range because all existing stock would need to be destroyed and new stock bread up from older breeds of pigs that are suited to the outdoor lifestyle. This also means that the land required to keep these animals would be huge and the cost of pork would go through the roof. There is also no guarantee that these animals would be any happier or sustain less sickness or injuries than high intensity farming methods.

      As far as actual cruelty goes I can’t speak for every farm and their methods but my sister and brother-in-law manage a pig farm and cruelty in not tolerated. They are subject to inspections at any time and any employee found mistreating the animals is dismissed on the spot. No warnings, no counselling, just instant dismissal. Yes these pigs as easily stressed but this only means they need to be treated with more care than some pig wallowing in a paddock somewhere.

    • For the love of says:

      04:18pm | 17/06/11

      Bev, just zip it and get the washing on will you.

    • watty says:

      09:17am | 16/06/11

      Where were you Sarah and the Animal Rights brigade when hundreds of livestock were starved to death at the Darwin University’s Mataranks property?

      No charges laid by N.T.Government .Not a peep out of Canberra.

      Not defending cruelty in Indonesia but this happened in Australia and “Four Corners” were nowhere to be seen.

      Perhaps you could file a report on the Argentinian beef industry when you have some spare time?

    • Blind Freddy says:

      10:20am | 16/06/11

      Yeah! Why didn’t you mention everything else?!

    • Ali says:

      09:54am | 16/06/11

      Since Malaysia also practises the same type of slaughter of cattle it would be rather ironic. If we banned the export of cattle going to Malaysia and yet the export of people would be fine.

    • Tchom says:

      10:23am | 16/06/11

      I’d eat a boat person

    • Kayte says:

      10:43am | 16/06/11

      Sarah.  Exactly!  I do find it facinating that people can get so heat up over a few cows.  What about people!  Where are the roars of indignations over violations of human rights worldwide.  But lets make sure we save Whales and Cows!  Insulting our worldwide neighbours in the process.

      And the hypocrisy.  What about intensive piggerys right?  In Australia we commit very clever (about the same intelligence and friendliness as a dog) swine to tiny cages for life - in my opinion much crueler than live export trade.  And Halal.  Yes we kill cows Halal in Australia too.  Some abbatoirs in Australia have special permission to kill animals before they are stunned.  I’ve heard Halal meat tastes different, so there is a huge incentive to do proper Halal because the Muslims can taste the difference?
       
      In Indonesia human life is cheap.  Right?  It’s why they treat animals cruely.  But that poverty in indonesia is the same reason Australians enjoy holidaying in Bali.  When we are there on holiday we are happy to turn a blind eye to the corruption, poverty and cruelty ongoing to human life- let alone bloody cows. 
      And the refugees.  I find it facinating that all the lefties (and rightists for that matter) are so heat up about boatpeople in Australia - a small group of refugees which are a blip in the humanitarian crises of refugees in tent-towns worldwide. 
      Don’t even get me started on whats going on in the Aboriginal Community, and how what is popularly reported is completely different from the reality.  And how we care so much about bloody cows and boatpeople but not our fellow Australians!

    • Blind Freddy says:

      12:30pm | 16/06/11

      Any chance you could draw up a hierarchy of concerns that meets your approval. Given that we can only be concerned with one issue at a time. Your logic says “I care about boat-people so stuff cows”, “but, oh shit what about aborigines versus boat-people”

      Yet, from what you describe all of the issues you raise require attention and action. Why not act on all of them? Chew gum and walk.

    • Biff says:

      11:00am | 16/06/11

      They’re just cows. Who cares? Should we stop lions from attacking their prey because of the torture their prey has to go through before they die? People care about too many things these days. You’ll all be dead soon. Just enjoy life and stop worrying about trivial crap like this.

    • Leopard says:

      11:16am | 16/06/11

      @Biff…...But you are humans.
      Torturing animals is uncivilised -  not trivial

    • Biff says:

      11:59am | 16/06/11

      That is true and I think society sucks for these very reasons. I wish we lived in a society that was a bit more neanderthal.

    • Trevore says:

      11:10am | 16/06/11

      No such thing as beef laksa. Really.

    • Mahhrat says:

      11:54am | 16/06/11

      I agree, prawn laksa is much tastier.

    • maryellen says:

      11:33am | 16/06/11

      Don’t you just love it!  “The general public finds itself dismayed and outraged…...” 
      But not Sarah.  Oh no, Sarah is not one of them.  Sarah is above all that.

    • Margie says:

      11:43am | 16/06/11

      The difference is that these “boat people” really only want to come here for a better life. They travel over 4 or 5 Muslim countries where they could easily live but CHOOSE Australia, land of bleeding hearts. It has been reported several times recently that 80% of them are still on welfare after 5 years here. They do not try to get work, have several more kids (&get; the baby bonus) and ruin our culture.  We have to change for them, we can’t offend them. They live in ghettoes, & what about that Muslim cleric whyo has lived here for 19 years on our welfare & is planning terrorist acts against us?  They throw away their documentation before they arrive so that we can’t find out who they REALLY are.  Then they burn down our facilities and are REWARDED with permanent residency. They are much better in detendtion here, & get given computers, free telephone calls to back home for as long as they like, free b ottled water, & good halal prepared meals.  They leave the taps running so that the centres run out of water, spit on the guards and STILL we reward them.  We need politicians with COMMON SENSE, not bleeding hearts, who live in the real world!!!!

    • Alz says:

      12:17pm | 16/06/11

      So much for a bleeding heart when you don’t have one eh ?

      Did you know that the Core Principles of Islamic faith are Empathy and Compassion Towards All…..  but yet we still have people like yourself going down the wrong path…

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      04:29pm | 16/06/11

      Who says they are muslims though?  And who says those muslim countries treat them well.  The Rohingya from Burma all went to Bangladesh and Malaysia thinking they would be treated well and are tortured on a regular basis.

      It makes no difference how many countries people cross if they can’t be protected as refugees under the law.

      What is it with you people who can’t get a grasp on that most basic and well known fact.  After all 25,000 asylum seekers have flown here from all corners of the earth, flown over many countries and we never say they should have stayed somewhere else.

      As for burning down our “facilities” they are old tents that should not have been used and they are old tin dongas not fit for dogs.

      I think they should burn every place to the ground and we should grow the f…....k up.

      As the prisons have been declared to be illegal for the past 20 years why we want to waste over $1 billion to break the law is beyond me.

    • Jade (the other one) says:

      04:57pm | 16/06/11

      @Margie, those 4 or 5 Muslim countries include places like Syria, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Who are all currently producing boat people of their own.

      What about the Christian leaders in churches I have attended telling hundreds of children that they should be prepared to kill their own parents if Jesus asks them to?

      Name one thing YOU have had to change because of the “Muslims”.

      Why don’t you actually become informed about an issue before spouting your mouth off?

    • Get Real says:

      11:45am | 16/06/11

      Indonesia don’t care who they buy their cattle from. We compete on a global scale and the green gillard group decide to screw with the lives of some farmers producing cattle because the end user doesn’t treat them as we would.

      Rubbish.

      Boat people are an issue because both sides of the opposition (none of the parties really have the right to govern us) make it an issue. The reality is they are not an issue. Don’t get sucked into their distraction games from the real issues like prices for carbon (it’s not a tax and we were promised it wouldn’t be taxed i mean priced), the economy and other issues that will affect us on a daily basis in our wallets.

    • HappyCynic says:

      02:25pm | 16/06/11

      @Monika

      Facts have no room in the debate about asylum seekers, nobody wants to hear them.  Only ignorance and bullsh*t must be put forward otherwise your opinion is considered invalid, or worse, you’re shouted down as the reason why Australia is going to Hell.  Either you’re a heartless, conservative, fascist pig, or a bleeding heart, commie, socialist dog, pick a side then start hurling abuse smile

      The whole “debate” is almost too stupid for words.

    • Debbie says:

      12:02pm | 16/06/11

      I’m a vegetarian, but not a strict vegetarian ... I still eat chicken, and beef, and lamb. I can honestly say I’ve never eaten a refugee though.

    • bikinis on top says:

      12:05pm | 16/06/11

      What is real meat? Is it the meat big meat eaters eat ?
      Did not The Australian Muslim Bishop say that naked women and sluts are raw meat waiting for male wild animals to devour them as he buried his head in the sand. ?? 
      You know it makes sense.I am not Sam Kekovitch.

    • ausspud says:

      03:28pm | 16/06/11

      so what times dinner

    • bikinis on top says:

      12:08pm | 16/06/11

      There is no meat on fridays.
      You know it makes sense! I am not Sam Kekovitch.

    • Bev says:

      03:16pm | 16/06/11

      I don’t normaly both with answering you but here goes.
      Fish on friday.  Because of good Friday and christs death. Good selling story but actualy it has more to do with dietary balance in the average person food intake (they did have some knowledge of nutritional needs) and were aware of the the benefits of fish.  They were not alone the English tudors also laid down rules for the common people.  What they could eat on certain days and how many meals per day (2). Naturaly it didn’t apply to the nobility.

    • EM says:

      12:09pm | 16/06/11

      Lets just export the boat people to indo for their meat trade and we’ll keep the cows.

      Problem solved.

    • Kaye says:

      12:10pm | 16/06/11

      I hope that was an attempt at humour or irony because otherwise you are probably the most ignorant and racist person I’ve ever come across. Disgusting

    • Ali says:

      12:14pm | 16/06/11

      Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) said:  ‘‘Whoever is kind to the creatures of God is kind to himself.”

    • wait for it says:

      04:34pm | 16/06/11

      Muslim preaching kindness? perhaps you should preach that more to your own flock (Peace be upon everyone)

    • Drew(Darlinghurst) says:

      12:14pm | 16/06/11

      Anyone who eats meat is guilty

      The Cows/Lambs/Chickens are not going to a day spa they are going to be murdered

      SNAP

      May all you meat eaters die of bowel cancer !!!

    • Tim says:

      02:05pm | 16/06/11

      May all you vegos die of anaemia !!!
      There, I fixed it for you.

    • Mike says:

      02:20pm | 16/06/11

      Fuck you. Seriously Fuck you with a rusty knife. I don’t care if you don’t eat meat or not. You feel superior for not indulging? Good for you. But wishing bowel cancer on people. That’s seriously fucked up.

      I don’t judge you so don’t judge me, that way we’ll all get along fine.

      And yes, Meat is Murder.
      Tasty, Tasty Murder

    • The 'Rear' Puncher says:

      06:21pm | 16/06/11

      Oh but I think Drew does eat meat (c;

    • ShamWow says:

      08:20am | 17/06/11

      What a horrible person is one that wished death on others.

    • Jane2 says:

      12:38pm | 16/06/11

      Yes we consider someone getting the cane for wrong doing barbaric but it is wrong to say they are not provided for humanely. They get food and shelter paid for by the government of teh country they have “invaded”. Then compare it to the lifestyle of that countries citizens. Its a country without a welfare system so those inside the fence are treated better than a very large number outside the fence who would probably love to get free food and shelter even if it means living behind a fence.

      Now compare it to our refugee settlements, tennis courts, swimming pool, internet access, education access, language training access. I personally think its barbaric that we treat refugees in this country better than we treat our citizens. Where is my free swimming pool and free internet? Where is my free acommadation and food.

      I know someone on one of the bases that has been temporarily reassigned. His children on base have no swimming pool or tennis court because all have been placed behind wire for the assylum seekers. This is a base in the middle of no-where. the only public pool and public tennis court is now out of bounds for Australian citizens.

      Is humane treatment actually fair treatment.

    • non-warmist says:

      12:42pm | 16/06/11

      Sarah Gilbert,  Spare us your hand-wringing on community attitudes.  Look no further than the Baby Boomer generation who consign their mothers - before their time -  to the sidelines in aged care “retirement villages”.  The wealthy Boomers, in their large and empty houses,  then walk bridges, light candles, bang-on about compassion for refugees.  That’s community attitude for you…....  (Illegal entrants not going to Malaysia now, so it’s all good!)

    • Kaye says:

      12:52pm | 16/06/11

      Sorry, my comment was meant for Margie, I’m not sure how it changed from a reply to a stand alone comment. Eh.

    • David says:

      01:15pm | 16/06/11

      I dont care how animals get killed as long as the meat comes out nice and tender. They are just animals. My kids watch shows on lifestyle channel about where your food comes from and they can watch a cow being butchered etc and sit there going yum yummy yum. I have no problems with this at all and would like people to focus on big issues number 1 for me is clean drinking water

    • Leopard says:

      01:42pm | 16/06/11

      Jaxxon, Krouper and Charkilaah?

    • Gomez12 says:

      01:23pm | 16/06/11

      Great,
      Here I was:
      Wringing my hands over the Palestinians,
      Empathising with the Israelites,
      Caring about the homeless,
      Worried about the plight of Aboriginals
      Getting angry about the starving poor in Africa
      Sympathising with the Womens ruined by the Patriachy,
      Becoming inconsolable about the Environment, and
      Being concerned about the Japanese and New Zealanders with the earthquakes

      And then I realise I’d forgotten to panic about refugees or protest about the cows. I must be a terrible person.

      I’m sure all the “good” people out there can spend 20 minutes a day thinking about each and every plight/problem/tragedy/disaster/concern out there. Sadly I have to live and work and simply can’t find the time. Sorry if that doesn’t live up to your standards Sarah. But I bet most of us fall into that category.

    • carol says:

      01:52pm | 16/06/11

      Is it about Sarah’s standards?  Or Sarah’s superiority?
      Gomez12 is right.  We’re flat out working - some at two jobs, paying bills, having a break now and then, etc.
      This from-a-distance-compassion really annoys me.

    • Aman says:

      01:48pm | 16/06/11

      Writer has raised a valid point. I feel there is lot of double standard among people. They would not be able to see these animals kept in brutal conditions and killed mercilessly but yeah they can eat it. They cannot relate to animal pain but yeah can relate very well to their own children in pain. They would talk about equality among men and woman and in some instances condemn other religions for not treating women well but discrimination against animals is fine.
      Ask these people simple one questions- They also have meat on their body, Is it fair for somebody to kill them for eating? I am sure what will be the answer. Total Hypocrisy !!

    • Slippery says:

      01:08pm | 17/06/11

      Yes, it is ok for something to come and kill me to eat me. If it thinks it can. That is the natural order of things. That’s how it’s always been. Humans were prey animals in the past and now (for the most part) we are not. If you were to go to Africa and walk among the Lions would you not expect to be eaten? Do you think Sharks are evil because they occasionally snack on the odd human? People like you have become far to “Human” for your own good. You are still an animal. If your little security bubble burst and the world wasn’t like it is now, there was no supermarket, no policeman to call you’d lay down and die, because you haven’t the nuts to do anything else.

    • Gomez12 says:

      03:27pm | 16/06/11

      @Aman
      “They cannot relate to animal pain but yeah can relate very well to their own children in pain.”

      You don’t relate more to your children than animals? How sad.

    • Aman says:

      04:58pm | 16/06/11

      Gomez12,
                Its not Sad for my children and not sad for animals as well. Isn’t that good ?..Atleast I know I am treating all forms of humanity equally… 
      As you dont have 20 mins to think about things happening around you and show your concerns, I am sure people around you dont have time to care about as well. This does not seems to be the approach to make this world a better place to live in.
      If you end up into problem, you would then have all the time in this world to think about getting out of it. We call this category of people as Selfish !!

    • Shelley says:

      04:05pm | 16/06/11

      Check out question time today. 16/6/2011.

      Libs raised a censure motion against Labor for its Malaysia solution. The Greens sided with ALP to support Malaysia solution after Brant from the Greens earlier made a fuss in parliament about this very policy.

      What hypocrites the Greens are. Motion was defeated 71-70.

      Hanson Young should resign as from today after all her bleating about this Malaysia solution. For the Greens to tamely roll over and give Gillard the green light on this policy after her public comments about it is breathtaking.

      The Greens would rather lock people in Malaysian detention centres than support a motion against it made by Liberals.

      The Greens have proved themselves just another unethical, opportunistic political party and henceforth deserve to be treated as such by all.

    • Bev says:

      04:56pm | 16/06/11

      I always did.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      05:33pm | 16/06/11

      socialists ... *shrug*

    • Sharon says:

      08:39pm | 16/06/11

      16th June 2011 12:02 pm
      A motion condemning the government’s Malaysia refugee deal moved by Greens MP Adam Bandt has passed the House of Representatives.
      The motion supported 70-68 had previously passed the Senate and its passage means for the first time since the last election both houses of Parliament have condemned a policy of the government.
      “The Parliament has sent a clear message to the Prime Minister that the government does not have the support of Parliament for this deal.”
      “We should not be contracting out our obligations overseas and swapping the human rights of one group of asylum seekers for another.”
      “I hope the government listens to the Australian public and Parliament and scraps this deal.”
      “If not, the government is in danger of the Parliament supporting legislation moved by my colleague Senator Sarah Hanson Young which could
      prevent the deal going ahead.”
      Motion
      That this House:
      (a) condemns the Gillard Government’s deal with Malaysia that would see 800 asylum seekers intercepted in Australian waters and sent to
      Malaysia; and
      (b) calls on the Government to immediately abandon this proposal.

    • Shelley says:

      10:01pm | 16/06/11

      http://youtu.be/UA0YRw_QeGA
      Malaysian people swap - Leader of the Opposition’s Suspension Motion 16/6/2011.

      defeated when Greens sided with Gillard. Therefore the Greens support the Gillard tag and send to Malaysia solution by deed.

      What they say and what they do totally at odds with the Greens.

      Shame on them.

    • Jade (the other one) says:

      05:05pm | 16/06/11

      Here’s the thing. I never hear a peep from people about how we should have sent all the Jews back to Germany. You know, the ones who sold every possession they had for false papers to get them on transports to the US, England and Australia. Because they didn’t want to stay in Europe. I mean, we didn’t know who they really were. They DESTROYED their papers and paid for false ones.

      Clearly, these people were economic migrants who were merely seeking a better life. Many could have gone to countries like Russia, where the European culture would have been much closer to their own. I mean, they had the money to pay for transports to Australia, England, the US. And the cunning to get false papers declaring they weren’t Jews. The DECEIT! We don’t want such people in our nice country.

      And they should have stayed in Germany, Poland and the like and waited for the proper channels. Applied through the correct methods. Not destroyed their government issued papers and purchased new ones.

      Dirty filthy scum seeking to alter the good culture of our countries. I mean, they lived in ghettos once they got here. Their kids go to their own schools. They don’t try to integrate at all. Should have been sent back.

    • jf says:

      04:21pm | 17/06/11

      Apart from the fact that the Jews were being murdered in all of those countries rendering your analogy false, there was in fact a blockade of Jewish refugees from Europe to Israel.

      Analogy fail. Factual fail. Back to school for you son.

    • jade (the other one) says:

      05:15pm | 17/06/11

      There was no policy in Russia to murder Jews. They could have stayed there.

      As to your argument regarding the blockade on Jews leaving Europe, you’re absolutely right. Just as in many of the countries these refugees now coming to Australia are coming from, it is illegal to seek asylum. It is also illegal to apply for a passport. It is nearly impossible to get a birth certificate or other identifying papers.

      And they are being murdered, in most of the countries we suggest they should go to, as well as the countries they are escaping from. Just like the Jews. Yet we accept that the Jews did what they could to get out.  We don’t suggest that countries should have sent them back. Even though those who were not fortunate enough to have the funds to pay smugglers and forgers to get them to safe havens died in the camps. Like the Gypsies.

      And your suggestion about a blockade of Jews to Israel is a failure. Israel wasn’t a country until 1948.

    • Charles Barkley says:

      05:10pm | 16/06/11

      The difference between refugees coming on a plane and ones that are coming in boats is they have followed the correct immigration procedures.

      Most of the people on boats are not apparently refugees but economic migrants. 

      People are freaked out by scenes of animals because they have no idea of the workings of an abattoir. I’ve worked in one before and it can be very dirty and disgusting at times but you get used to it. The people who are up in arms would be up in arms if they saw the things happening in Australia, they just don’t have the emotional capacity to deal with it.

    • jade (the other one) says:

      09:10am | 17/06/11

      Charles Barkley, you are another one that needs to become informed. Over 90% of those refugees arriving by boat are found to be genuine. Around 50% of those arriving by plane are found to be genuine.

      Furthermore, those arriving by plane are often arriving on tourist, business or student visas, and then seeking asylum once they have arrived. The procedure that is advocated as the “correct” one by most of you ill-informed nitwits is that they apply for asylum in their own countries.

      The point is, the only problem people have is the mode of arrival. We don’t throw people arriving in planes on the wrong visa into lock up until we can assess their claims. The thing is, many of those people arriving by plane are arriving on false papers. That they have purchased. At great cost. Because a government that is persecuting a particular group isn’t going to be happy to issue passports or visas.

      So there is no difference between the two.

    • Dan says:

      05:11pm | 16/06/11

      I’ve been to an abattoir, the animals I felt most pity for were the humans. Without getting too gory - the cow comes in and is knocked unconcious immediately, before it can wake it has its throat cut and is dead. That is about as humane as you can get when killing something.

      The humans that work there have the task of cutting the same piece of meat repeatedly with knives that cut through cow bones. You can imagine some of the accidents that happen if they get bored. They also get poor pay and tend to have very little education or other qualifications. This is the best job they are likely to get in an abattoir town. Thats why I felt sorry for them.

      I went and ate a steak straight after my visit to the abattoir. I thought I’d never eat meat again but there you go - it wasn’t as bad as you’d expect. I actually found it fascinating to look at their anatomy, especially the four stomachs!

    • TracyS says:

      05:37pm | 16/06/11

      The public response to the footage with the cows was OTT without doubt. When you consider the quality of life for the many people in Indonesia who are below the poverty line and the substandard conditions that they live in (including the folk who do manual labour jobs such as working in abbatoirs), is it any wonder that the conditions in which the cows (who are there to be killed for meat anyway) are kept is not a high priority for them? Reality check please!

    • Vallue_dude says:

      05:41pm | 16/06/11

      @ Bev says: 08:55am | 16/06/11

      You might like to check your figures.  Rural and regional Australia supplies about 60% of Australia’s export income.  Coal alone supplies some 25%. 

      It is only about 10% of GDP but that’s because we value people washing dogs and serving coffee the same way we value people earning export dollars.  I find it incongruous people want to alienate the the very people doing the heavy lifting for the nation ie 10% of the GDP producing 60% of the export $‘s.

    • Dave says:

      05:42pm | 16/06/11

      That this article even gets printed shows what a soft nanny state Australia has become.  Just drink some concrete and harden up.

    • Bolverk says:

      05:54pm | 16/06/11

      I really don’t see why refugees cause such a big issue. Couldn’t the United Nations administer a scheme whereby all geniune refugees are shared equally amongst all countries? That seems like the fairest way for everybody - and would drastically see the costs currently allocated to prevention and processing fall.

      Also, if I could afford it, I would broadcast graphic advertisements during dinner time featuring abattoirs. I’m not saying that everybody has to become vegetarian because I am, but they should at least have to be fully informed.

    • seline says:

      06:37pm | 16/06/11

      I’m one of the few people who knows exactly how animals are killed and have seen it first hand and still I love my steak.  The rate at which we go through meat means its a faceless business where I’m happy as long as its done quickly.  A sharp knife to slice open the neck of a cow should not be a huge ask of even a third world country!!!
      I have many memories from living on a farm where we butchered our own meat ... living in a rural community means you confront life not pretend it away.  Death and eating meat is the cycle of life.
      As for those refugees who get on the boat ... they knew the risks when they stepped on the boat.  They shouldn’t complain.  They can wait 2 years in detention here while the checks are done or back in their own countries.  They made the choice ... they shouldn’t guilt us into just accepting them ... that’s how the bad ones will get in then what will you bleeding hearts be saying when a bad nut gets through cause your all too soft.

    • Common Sense says:

      07:40pm | 16/06/11

      I agree with yu seline, I like my meat and I like to know that the beast was humanely killed. If I had invested millions of $s in a project I would at least make sure that I had the proper inspectors along the way. We are now supposed to feel sorry for the farmers who have reared these cattle and now nowhere to send them. They had the MLA looking afer their interests, and should be putting their complaints to them. I do not feel any guilt about animals being killed humanely for humans to eat, but I do feel very strongly about cruelty. I was unaware that the govt was going to send more animals over there, so here we go again, more letters to the pollies, more petitions. Joolia I think it is time for yu to hang up your PM shingle and let someone in there that has the b..ls to do the job. I dont think she must have done too good at maths at school, If I give you 800 you give me 4000 back? Is that inflation? We have a programme for immigration in Aust and I dont think that the people who get on boats to come here shud be jumping the que. They are the ones who get more paid to them than Aust, free accom, free medical, free dental. It might be worthwhile getting on a boat and landing on the shore and declaring refugee status. They have Moslems here who have never worked in 10years, have 15 children, how much do yu think he is getting every week from Mr Centrelink. Come through the front door or dont come at all. Get a job, learn the language, dont make Aust change to suit you, and you will be welcome. Is that being a raceist? well I guess I must be. I want a fair deal for all living in Aust, all equal- not some getting more than others because of where they were born or the colour of their skin. I think most Aust are just sick and tired of paying for all these people coming and getting our hard earned dollars and then we cant even pay for our own people in distasters.

    • The Badger says:

      07:30pm | 16/06/11

      “And I will rain down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.”

    • Sharon says:

      08:23pm | 16/06/11

      “don’t like watching animals die, but I do like to eat them. Like most omnivorous Australians, watching the slaughter of pigs and sheep is not something I’ve ever had a chance to get used to.”

      Newsflash Sarah:
      You have a choice! You don’t have to eat meat. The high meat and animal product diet of our wealthy western world is environmentally unsustainable (land, water, feed, pollution), inflicts suffering on billions of animals every year and is strongly linked to our high rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease and cancers.

      Regular tours of our Animal Killing Factories (aka Abattoirs) are not a mandatory part of our school curriculums, or on the “things to do this weekend” family outing list. However, perhaps MLA would like to recommend and showcase the slaughter process in their next “ham” actor campaign?

      The huge public outcry over the Four Corners footage is totally justified. It was truly sickening but wasn’t even the worst of it (and I’ve seen a lot of this stuff), and the inherent cruelty of this vile trade has been highlighted numerous times over the past decade. Enough is enough.

      Supporting campaigns against oppression and cruelty to human and non-human animals is not mutually exlusive to me, and that is why I support both.

    • Tara says:

      08:29pm | 16/06/11

      If you want to eat meat from an animal that has been mistreated, well then good for you. Your life is about your choices - dont judge someone who ,whether knowingly or not, chooses to do so (or not). Choose to turn a blind eye and live with your decision. Choose compassion and live with that decision. Either way it’s you who lives with it.

    • trog on says:

      08:38pm | 16/06/11

      FYI, vegetarians aren’t afraid of the sight of meat or even animals being tortured. I skipped your moronic writing however smile

    • Ray says:

      11:02pm | 16/06/11

      @Sharon - I respect your views, but telling a Lion that it’s being “vicious and cruel” to the local Gazelle population is not going to make it rethink it’s diet. Humans are biologically omnivorous, and the food chain dictates we can eat meat if we want to.

      To quote Disney’s ‘Circle Of Life’ theory however, Humans do far more to assist animals than most other animals will ever do - so it’s give and take. Though I admit our assistance likely does little to balance our appetites.

    • Ray says:

      11:46pm | 16/06/11

      The stopping of animal exports was badly handled—it was pure kow-towing to the animal rightists. No consideration was given to the interests of the stakeholders and the animals involved. The animal shipments that were already in train, should have been allowed to be completed, so as to minimise cruelty to the animals enroute. There is a strong case for the Government to compensate all the stakeholders who were damaged by the stoppage.

    • Wonko the Sane says:

      11:50pm | 16/06/11

      Sarah, the connection between refugees and slaughtered animals is little more than an emotional manipulation.  I, for one, do not support the inhumane slaughter of animals.  I also do not support the inhumane treatment of people.  There are many people who are up in arms about the stupidity and selfishness that appears to be endemic in this world and it reflects very badly on your professional position if you imply otherwise.  Many of us abhor the mistreatment of ANY creature regardless of the number of legs it has.  I am getting sick of attempts to divide people up into the care-for-animals OR care-for-humans camps as though there are not people who believe in compassion and consideration for all.  Please be different from all the other empty-heads who take this approach.

      Also, you say you do not like to see animals die but you do like to eat them.  Is it also true to say that you do not like to see people tortured at Guantanamo Bay but you do like to profit from the information extracted from them?  Or that you don’t like to see young children in sweatshops making clothing but you like to buy the designer labels? 

      To accept the end product without owning up to the real cost is to abdicate your responsibility.  This is the same argument that an arms manufacturer has to the export of guns to a terrorist. 

      It is this ethical blindness that allows us to obtain whatever we want regardless of the cost to others.  But that is not something to be proud of.  It is actually a weakness and one of humanity’s worst characteristics.  Unless we pull ourselves out of this self-serving ignorance we shall never build a better world where we treat others with compassion.

    • A Jones says:

      12:41am | 17/06/11

      So I was told this is an open forum for bogan bigots and the contentedly ignorant.

    • hk says:

      05:09pm | 17/06/11

      haha meat eaters are like that.. their pathetic, moronic attempts to justify their stupid eating habits. If you notice closely its often the meat eaters (f**kwits) who are on the offensive.

      Here you idiots sorry, meat eaters..suck on this:

      http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

    • aj says:

      01:04am | 17/06/11

      If you can’t kill it, don’t eat it.

    • Slippery says:

      12:56pm | 17/06/11

      Because it’s hard to chase it around your plate while it’s still alive? wink

    • Jurgen Fassbinder says:

      09:23am | 17/06/11

      I was under the impression that this article and the subsequent forum was to discuss live meat exports but in many instances it has once again shifted to the refugee question The racist bigots will sieze any opportunity they can to have a whinge and a rant.

      I thought the role of the moderator was to make sure that postings were on topic

      Another thing I have noticed about this “The Punch” is that just about all of its forums seem to leave the door open for these ridiculous refugee rants what is the agenda here how about a forum on what a pratt Christina Aguilera is it might be a bit more light hearted than this oh so boring refugee rant that seems to dominate here.

      By the way the majority of you are devoid of a sense of humour

      Let the rants and vilification begin

      I’m off to the essential baby forum now to whine on about the fact that all single mothers are bludgers

    • Are you serious? says:

      06:33pm | 17/06/11

      What a terrible thing to say about single mothers, i do hope this is a joke?, i had actually bee agreeing with what you wrote until i read that bombshell.

    • Richy says:

      09:42am | 17/06/11

      Comparing animals to refugees is like comparing apples and oranges. The refugees aren’t real refugees, else they’d cross a border or two to escape, not come halfway around the world. Maybe the Malaysian deal will stop the illegal immigrants from traveling here. Maybe the Malaysian deal will tell the refugees to go to a country closer to them.

    • jade (the other one) says:

      09:51am | 17/06/11

      I get sick and tired of the characterisation of meat eaters as inner city suburbanites who aren’t informed about how their meat is killed and who would stop eating it if they knew.

      Most of the most voracious meat eaters I know are people who work on cattle stations. They see the whole process. Their children raise calves, chickens, lambs and the like, fattening them up before killing and butchering them.

      All you bleeding heart vegetarians and vegans, just because you have such a weak stomach that the process of butchery turns your stomach, don’t assume that everyone is as piss weak as you.

    • Message to Jade says:

      04:40pm | 18/06/11

      Jade, you sound like a very unpleasant person.

    • Slippery says:

      10:01am | 17/06/11

      I’m a hunter, and I don’t particularly “like watching animals die” but I often eat what I kill (there are other reasons I hunt). I figure an animal that has had it’s life run it’s course naturally, and has met it’s end as a prey animal by my hand as is more humane than one that has been farmed, caged and slaughtered. I do eat store bought meat however, but I’m constantly irked by people who attack hunters and don’t think about where their food comes from! I think every animal deserves a swift and painless end, and I can only hope the same for myself if I’m eaten by a shark or something.

    • Carnivora says:

      10:25am | 17/06/11

      I like my meat rare, the rarer the better, my adrenaline builds up and I start salivating until I get to sink my teeth into it. My favourite is baby bilby stuffed with rice and capsicum, and served with garlic and bush lime dijonaisse, really tender! When I have friends over, I like to chuck something bigger on the barbie, like a tree kangaroo, served with rosella sauce. For really big parties, nothing beats dugong, slow-cooked in a hangi, Maori style.

    • R* says:

      04:32pm | 17/06/11

      Those stuffed baby bilbies are excellent! Actually the cuter and younger the animal the tastier it is.

      I like the sound of your barbecues! Can I come to the next one? I’ve never had the pleasure of eating slow cooked dugong.

    • Bigcat says:

      11:04am | 17/06/11

      When are we going to learn, to each his own.
      And that includes vegetarians, just shut up and live by your own values.

      That means stop the promotion and self justification that always ends as it begins and was intended, to insult other people and claim some baseless moral superiority.

      By the way a scientific survey found Vegetarianism can be equated with, high levels of insecurity and a low levels of self worth, hence requirement to validate moral superiority by insulting the majority.

    • Rob says:

      01:56pm | 17/06/11

      The politics of meat ?!? Eh?

      We’re the top of the food chain. Do you really think the spider debates with itself about eating the fly? This is millions of years of evolution to bring us to this point, and some bleeding hearts want us to change our minds after a relatively short period of veganism. This is completely non-sensical.

      I want a dead animal in my belly. This is what my DNA tells me. I think it is stupid to turn your back on what you are, and I have made peace with myself a long time ago. I pity the fools who have not.

    • Evolution says:

      03:53pm | 17/06/11

      Do you still beat your woman over the head with a club Rob. one word: EVOLUTION

    • Jay76 says:

      02:08pm | 17/06/11

      I think the differentiator is quite simple: anyone/thing seen to be taking something from us (quality of life, social welfare) are seen as undeserving. Anyone who doesn’t affect those aspects are treated as deserving of sympathy.

      Cows are seen to “rob” us of anything. Boat people are.

    • TDJ says:

      03:29pm | 17/06/11

      Firstly, I eat meat, but I do not necessarily like to see animals being slaughtered. That does not mean I should not eat meat. If I were in a situation were I had to kill an animal for food, I would. The fact is I don’t have to. As for live cattle export, there are obviously more humane ways of killing animals than some backward people and countries would use. So we should only do it here and export the pre slaughtered meat. Let us face it the only reason we have live exports is because of Muslims. Quite frankly if they don’t like it stuff them. They cause enough problems as it is. As for “illegal immigrants”, they are no longer refugees when they leave Indonesia to invade us, they are not our problem. They are the U.N.s problem and it is high time they were made to act on their responsibilities and not dump it on other countries. At the very least these people should not be allowed to jump on boats in Indonesia and come here. Then if they sink it is somehow our fault and Indonesia has no responsibility whatsoever. Wake up. We have a weak Government who are a soft target and the U.N. are using that. They are despicable. The U.N. know these people get on boats from their own countries, they know they get on boats from Indonesia and do nothing. They are to blame when these people die at sea, NOT US. It is about time we stopped taking this crap. The real criminals here are the U.N. They should be replaced with NATO.

    • Prepared to act says:

      03:48pm | 17/06/11

      Sarah, please refrain from saying things like: “the usual bleeding-heart refo activists that are arcing up”.
      There are many people in this world who are strong enough and selfless enough to give up eating meat as they do not wish to be part of a cruel and unnecessary practice.
      I know you would not like your future generations to read your story many years from now when the meat industry no longer exists.

    • Jimmy Manton says:

      08:07pm | 18/06/11

      Bleeding-hearts? I find it bizarre reading things like this. Taking people who are as informed as they are compassionate (to the point they can even look beyond the selfish needs of their own species ) and dismiss them as nothing more than misguided flakes and hippies.
      Here I was thinking compassion and empathy was the very best of what we are as a species.

    • Come on pal says:

      03:51pm | 17/06/11

      Blah Blah Blah, you call someone else weak, you don’t like to see animals slaughtered but you eat meat anyway, something wrong with your statement TDJ

    • Fingers Freddy says:

      04:21pm | 17/06/11

      Vegetarianism is out, carnivorism is in. Vegetarians, get the lentils off your plate and steak on your fork. It’s good for you. It’s powered by plants or other small animals which are powered by plants and all plants are powered by the sun so it’s Solar Powered food.  Yes, that’s right meat is the green food not like the green vegetables but meat is better when it’s red. Not red like the Australian Greens or Vegans or Vegetarians, red like the red blooded mammals we all are. Well some of us might be similar to sssscertain reptiles like ssssnakes but they’re the ones that polarise the refugee issue to distract us from the real issue and that is the price of carbon that’s not a tax but is a tax and it’s a tax we don’t need and were promised we wouldn’t have.  Ask Maurice Strong.

    • Tony Abbottwaa says:

      04:27pm | 17/06/11

      Come on pal:
      “you don’t like to see animals slaughtered but you eat meat anyway, something wrong with your statement TDJ “

      You’re completely wrong. It’s totally normal not to enjoy seeing animals slaughtered. I would be horrified if I was desensitized to the process. The end result is my basic need - food - is satisfied.

      We’re pretty lucky if we are in the position to pick and choose what we do and dont eat. I’m sure we’d all eat a bit of meat if it meant staying alive and that’s the genetic imprint that’s in all of us. Would a starving Ethiopian family knock back a steak or leg of lamb or pork chops? Hell no.

      Vegos, Vegans and other Hippy types: Eat to live. Don’t live to eat. That means eat a steak.

    • Many other options says:

      06:37pm | 17/06/11

      Tony, the whole point is that we do not need to eat meat to live healthy lives.

    • Heather says:

      05:47pm | 17/06/11

      Humans have a choice to get on boats and walk into Centrelink ..... animals have no voice, except for humans that speak for them. Ban Live Export or perhaps there is a human here that would like to suffer the same fate….I think not.

    • Andrew says:

      07:29am | 18/06/11

      From the many comments here, we can see we haven’t evolved very much.

    • Kai says:

      02:47pm | 18/06/11

      I have killed, slaughtered and cooked a cow. I will never ever again eat meat!! EVER. My grandfather believed if you can’t kill something yourself you don’t have the right to eat it, and even though i did it as humanly as i possibly could it will haunt me for life. I don’t eat red meat, chicken or eggs. I don’t drink milk unless it’s soy and i will never again eat cheese or yoghurt or jelly. It is revolting the way animals are treated by the farmers, slaughter houses and consumer’s. How many times does a person not finish their meal and throw it away, well that animal had to go through hell just to be shat into the toilet or thrown in the bin. Try thinking of something other than your stomach and see what you can change.

    • The final word says:

      04:45pm | 18/06/11

      Kai, you have the power to change the world, i hope the force will soon be with you, i already am.

    • Bash says:

      06:04pm | 18/06/11

      A case I keep pointing out that the media never address, and only crazed vegans sadly cite (The figures are legit, they had footnotes!@ Nah, jokes aside, they really did.) in the American pork industry alone six times the grain it would take to feed the WORLD is fed to pigs every SIX MONTHS. Eating meat will never be economically or ecologically viable, so enjoy it while it lasts!

    • Krishna says:

      11:25pm | 18/06/11

      I must say an excellent article, been balanced.

      The best line is “I don’t like watching animals die, but I do like to eat them”

      sums up all the article

    • Chloe says:

      01:17am | 19/06/11

      This will piss off some people, but since when did stun-gunning a cow constitute as ‘humane’? To be truly humane we’d have to stop killing cows all together and I know people aren’t really going to want to give up meat. Heck, if we ban live exports—we’ll have trouble finding people who are willing to PAY for Aussie beef anyway. Next we’ll hear about how ridiculously priced those precious cows are.

      As for refugees—India, a country which is infinitely smaller than Australia, takes in thousands upon thousands of Tibetan refugees each year. We have space, it’s just people are too selfish to share it. Us Aussies are all about our ‘generousity’—just so long as it doesn’t cost us anything.

    • fun theme says:

      10:02am | 19/06/11

      So, because India’s population is out of control and people live in rubbish tips, literally, we should follow their example then ? We may have “space” but we dont have infrastructure, the money for infrastructure, the water, the rain or environment to hande it. Australians are not selfish, which is why we dont buy into the “population increase is good” mentality, we know that growth is not good. On the news the other day English PM Cameron was lamenting that Africas impoverished nations saw huge infant mortality rates and that they needed to be “growing”...really ?! Noone needs to be growing! Fact is though that the host source of the worlds assistance and welfare is dwindling in numbers and those who are sucking them dry are outweighing them at such a rate a mass starvation is inevitable.

    • HumansArePathetic says:

      02:56am | 19/06/11

      So many pathetic comparisons.
      The truth is that these cattle, were brutally tortured, slowly and painfully, some up to 30 minutes.
      If you are going to kill something, you do it as quickly and with as little pain as possible, in order to cause as little trauma to the animal as possible.
      And now you have idiots comparing these tortured animals with boat people.  Are the boat people destined for a slaughterhouse?  Are the cows destined for a cushy cell with FREE food, bed, accom, and free medical, more than what we give our own citizen street people?  No?
      I saw cattle having their eyes gouged out, tails broken repeatedly, screaming in pain while they had their throats slowly cut open (one took 30 minutes), and there were other cows tethered nearby trembling in fear as they watched their brethren get mutilated in front of them…  all for profit.
      Please do tell me how this is even remotely close to how we treat boat people?  We definitely don’t ship boat people off to a slaughterhouse.
      And don’t go comparing this to vegans and greenies.  This issue is about cruelty and torturing of animals, pure and simple.

    • Chloe says:

      11:18am | 19/06/11

      I’m sorry, do you not eat meat? So it’s okay to kill them humanely—by stun gunning them in the head? Sure, you see the cow getting its eyes gouged out and cry over it—what happens when you see people getting their eyes gouged out? Or when you see people getting shot? How about when a refugee sews their own mouth shut? Oh, I know. Because they’re human, you don’t really care all that much because they get free bed, accom and medical care. The cow on the other hand—quickly! Save it!!

      Also, how do YOU know the refugees aren’t bound for some kind of slaughter house? Does death have to be in a warehouse for it to be brutal and cruel, or does oppression and war count too? Or is it just because you don’t eat them so you don’t feel guilty?

      HAVE YOU LIVED IN A DETENTION CENTRE? No. Then you have no idea what the “FREE food, bed, accom, free medical” blah blah blah crap you’re spouting on about. Until you’ve visited one, you’re in no position to judge.

      fun theme: bottom line is—YOU don’t want to let refugees in because it may upset YOUR lifestyle, YOUR progress, YOUR economy. Yeah, that’s selfish. At least admit it and stop trying to ride around on a moral horse that doesn’t exist. You can justify it all you want. Selfish is selfish. In the end, it’s more about caring for YOURSELF, than for others.

    • HumansArePathetic says: says:

      12:52am | 21/06/11

      Yes Chloe. I eat meat, and I love it. 

      I also like to know that the animal is killed as humanely as possible.  I am against cruelty to animals, and people for that matter; it is just sick and wrong.

      You also completely missed the point of my sarcasm.  Perhaps I should be more blunt for you.
      Cruelty is wrong.  Period.

      The issue about what was shown on 4corners, was purely about the sick prolonged torture of cattle.  The story had absolutely NOTHING to do with boat people.

      Yet people keep missing the point, and twisting it with bizarre comparisons to boat people.  Which is wrong.  They are both 2 COMPLETELY different issues and different situations.
      I gave example of a ridiculous comparison in my sarcasm to get my point across, but it went right over your head.

      We already have seperate headlines about boat people, refugees, immigration issues; yet it has to be dragged again into the plight of the cattle, and all it has done is diminished the impact of what is happening to the cattle and cloud yet another issue. 

      I also read another article recently and they were comparing abortions of all things to the cattle torture.

      You basically have a story about torturing of cattle, and the discussion has been completely diverted to a completely different topics.

      It’s almost starting to seem like, “hey lets compare every disgusting human act out there, so that it makes cows being tortured not seem so bad and everyone can forget about it, then we can not care if they are being brutally tortured and continue making our big juicy fat profits from their plight.”

      Also don’t go assuming what i want in regards to refuggees, you are so off the mark its not funny.  You should get off your own moral high horse.and stop making such foolish assumptions.

    • todd says:

      07:14am | 19/06/11

      i eat rabbit ,roo,pig,sheep and goat i slaughter them all, im also a licensed firearm holder so what i shoot i eat i have no problem with it i respect that animal and kill it as fast as possible i make great stews from rabbit and goat smile and once again a born again vegan by the name of KAI is sounding like all vegans almost cult like they want to tell people what to do rather then respect individual choices i just loath vegans that try to shove their crappy ways down people throats reminds me of the do gooders that have wrecked genuine refugees into this country no idea on reality ..it;s all sunshine lolly pops and rainbow drops

    • pass the screaming carrots says:

      09:53am | 19/06/11

      well, isn’t this a very passionate debate! My two cents, I dont eat meat for ethical reasons and I think Westerners eat too much meat.Portion control is outta control, get educated on that first.Peeps need to also know about the reality of slaughterhouses.You think we dont have nutters and cruel b****ds working in ours, right now ? Read about Kath Knight and her crime, she worked in one and her book talks about the sick stuff she and others did to the pigs, heartbreaking and revolting.

    • Dave says:

      01:06pm | 19/06/11

      We are the worlds 3rd highest in the cost of living and the only thing this PM and Labor is thinking is their big EGOS, who is in pain?? the people of Australia, this woman is only thinking of giving herself a pay raise and her so called colleagues in parliment,she is cutting the throats of farmers, innocent hard working workers for what?? this Labor party is so far on the nose every one in Australia is having a nose bleed. Does she care? NO. We will pay her a life pension, her unmarried partner one too, car, flights, office, secretary, for life, so why should she and all MP,S care???, enough of this Grand Rip-Off to this society. Make them work for the privileges, it seems the norm now for all these MP’S to do very little for us now, on both sides.

    • Sharon says:

      05:41pm | 19/06/11

      I believe this sums it up nicely:

      If neatly chopped up animals
      Sit on a butcher’s tray,
      No one will gasp and feign offence
      Or turn the other way.

      Young eyes will not be shielded
      From the severed body parts,
      As folks stand there debating over
      Kidneys, brains or hearts.

      But dare display a picture
      From a day or two before,
      Of the animals, their parts intact
      Upon the slaughter floor

      With eyes rolled back in terror
      As they stand in line and wait
      For the bloody-aproned slaughterman
      To seal their gruesome fate

      The reaction will be hostile
      “How dare you let them see!”
      “You might upset the children!”
      “Disgraceful! Goodness me!”

      The tragic source of meat, it seems
      Must never reach young eyes,
      Instead folk try to hide the truth
      With “happy farmyard” lies.

      Is this because the grown-ups know
      If children knew their fate,
      With one accord they’d all refuse
      The meat upon their plate.  (J. Moxham)

    • andy lee says:

      09:35pm | 19/06/11

      I definitely understand your frustration when it comes to human rights, the basic need for safety of ones self and/or family are a genuine concern on both sides of the argument of refugees.The concern for the welfare of the cattle mentioned in recent events is also a genuine concern,arguing over who is right and who is wrong on this issue serves no purpose.Two needs,need to be met;
      one the humane treatment of animals to be slaughtered,and farmers need to sell their cattle,can’t some solution be found based on these needs?
      From my point of view the way people are informed through the media is the reason for some prejudices.If social change is to occur,the advocates of human rights etc really need to use the media for their purpose avaas and get up are good examples.

    • Jason says:

      07:17am | 20/06/11

      I still prefer our cows over these illegals.

      Simply put, there is a system in place, these people disregard it, not once or twice but over and over again.

      If they disregard our immigration system, then why on earth would they bother following our laws?

    • Chloe says:

      12:05pm | 20/06/11

      That argument is ridiculous. If we follow that ‘logic’ then anyone who downloads anything, ie. breaks our laws, will also disregard our immigration system and start smuggling people in from overseas.

      If A = B, then it suffices B = A. Because your argument does not follow that logic, then it suffices that you’re wrong.

      Not to mention you just outright said you prefer to vouch for the care of cows than you do humans. What’s wrong with you?

    • Slippery says:

      11:47am | 24/06/11

      Reading back through this I realise how misinformed most greenies are. You all carry on about how it’s wrong to kill an animal but you couldn’t live your life the way it is without someone doing your dirty work. The hilarious fact is you are all using or at least looking at something made from an animal right now and for the most part you don’t know it. Do a little research. You’ll probably never sleep again…..Idiots, and you carry on like you’re above everyone else. hahahahahahaha

    • Sharon says:

      06:25pm | 26/06/11

      CHOOSE to do less harm .... it’s that simple.

      Most of us would surely prefer to inflict less suffering and pain on others - human or non-human.

      So just do it, please.

 

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