George W Bush called John Howard the “man of steel”, invited him home to his Texas ranch, and gave him a quasi-royal reception at the White House. But he never kissed him on the cheek.

The Chevys are coming too. Pic: AP

Barack Obama will deliver a peck to Julia Gillard when he arrives in Australia on Wednesday, and also will bestow the greatest gift an American president can offer a Prime Minister – proximity to his power.

It’s one of those significant indicators of transitions in global influence. Once Australian PMs hiked it to London to ramp up their status by being seen at Downing St and Buckingham Palace. Now it’s the Oval Office, and soon it might be the Great Hall of the People in Beijing.

Bill Clinton came to Australia in November, 1996,  but didn’t want to bestow much of anything on John Howard. They never really clicked after Howard ousted Paul Keating – whom Clinton liked – earlier that year.

Clinton understood the effect of a presidential snub.

Equally canny,  Bush understood the potency derived from sharing the President’s company, and by implication his stature and authority.

So in May 2003 he invited Howard, his steadfast partner in the Iraq invasion, to Crawford, Texas; in May 2006 hosted him in Washington including a photo opportunity on the White House porch for lots of royal waving; and in 2007 came to Sydney to attend an APEC summit, but just as important to lend whatever support he could to his mate, the politically doomed man of steel.

Barack Obama comes here grateful for Australia’s support - which began when Kevin Rudd was Prime Minister - for involving the G20 of top national economies in reaching agreements on global economic management.

He also is grateful for our efforts in Afghanistan, and shares the sadness of our losses there.

The President will be here to mark the 60th anniversary of our alliance with the US, and to use a speech to a joint session of Parliament on Thursday to elaborate “on how the US sees the Asia-Pacific, the efforts that we’ve taken, again, within the region, over the course of the last thee years to strengthen our core alliances to engage emerging powers like China and India and others, and to engage Asian regional institutions like APEC and the East Asia Summit”, according to a White House briefing.

But you’ve got to think that while these are the tasks that are bring Obama here, it’s not too much to presume he also is coming because he really wants to. He’s tried twice already over three years.

He would like the opportunity to be among friends and out of the cauldron which is US politics.

Last week Republican hopeful for the presidency Ric Perry made the unhelpful kind of headlines by forgetting a third of his own policy during a debate with GOP rivals.

It was an excruciating political moment, televised live, as he could think of only two of the three government departments he would abolish if he became President.

But what must have struck many Australians was that one of the two departments he did remember was set for extinction was education. He wouldn’t inject new standards to the department of education, wouldn’t change its functions or adjust its funding. He would just get rid of it.

It is remarkable to hear a national leader nominating education - the engine room of opportunity and economic growth - for abolition.

That’s an insight into the political peer group against whom the President is competing, and who are attacking him for poor policy choice.

In a coincidental engagement, Obama and his host will visit a Canberra school Thursday, because, as the White House briefing says, “Education is very important for both President Obama and Prime Minister Gillard.”

Throw in the new carbon pricing laws and the move to tax big miners, and he’s got to feel he’s among friends.

Further, Obama will have “brief’’ talks with Opposition Leader Tony Abbott.

The overhanging irony is that the leader of Australia’s conservative forces backs universal health care and has proposed generous government-funded parental leave provisions, which in the US would be enough to have him declared a communist by some anti-Obama elements.

No matter how friendly the Obama visit, it will involve another takeover of the Australian Parliament by American security priorities and agents.

Parliament House workers won’t be able to park there. They will be bussed in. And reporters will have to wear two forms of security pass to get to anywhere near the President.

In past visits the reporters who came with the President decided their own rules.

Back in 2003 there were “difficulties encountered on the day” of the Bush address to Parliament because “the American media departed from the agreed arrangements”, according to an official report to the Speaker in 2004.

A US television camera was snuck into Parliament itself, as just one example.

That type of tension over security and access could appear again, but would not be representative of the relationship between the visitor and the woman waiting for that smooch on the cheek.

221 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Super D says:

      05:10am | 14/11/11

      What are the odds of the Greens heckling Obama over Afghanistan?

    • barney says:

      08:10am | 14/11/11

      We can only hope they do

    • Rick of the Dustbowl says:

      08:29am | 14/11/11

      He just inherited the mess from Bush and Julia just inherited it from the ha ha ha MAN OF STEEL jack boot Johny….No I mean seriously take me to your leader.

    • Rocksteady says:

      08:55am | 14/11/11

      Is Afghanistan something to be proud of?

    • nossy says:

      09:24am | 14/11/11

      @Super D - Bush was interupted addressing Parliament in 2003 but parried it brilliantly. A lot of people didnt like Bush but I did - he took the tough decisions when they were required. And yes please Bob Brown “SHUT UP” while Obama is here - have some manners fella!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5yhhdDD10g

    • Dissident says:

      10:14am | 14/11/11

      Good call, Super D.

      Much as I loathe the ALP, the Greens are far worse. They heckle the leader of the most powerful nation on earth and our key ally in almost every respect, then - for good measure - decide to boycott Israel.

      Anti-semitic, diplomatic saboteurs.

      Rick - Obama has had nearly 3 years to pull out of Afghanistan but hasn’t yet. What’s his excuse?

      Finally, consider the irony. Unpopular President George W Bush visits Australia to heckling from the chattering classes and media. Unpopular President Barack Obama visits Australia to almost universal cheers of the chattering classes and media. And we’re “investigating” the Murdoch press?

    • john says:

      10:50am | 14/11/11

      The greens can look like idiots heckling Obama, or they can show off how an economy with a twist of green can spark a green economy to intertwine with an existing economy, as is occurring here and in many other parts of the world.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      10:56am | 14/11/11

      And Bush was there for 5 years, whats your point?

      You cant help what you have been given when you take over.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      10:56am | 14/11/11

      * Correction, 7 years

    • Dissident says:

      11:14am | 14/11/11

      The difference, SimonFromLakemba, is about choices. Bush chose to go there. The implication of your post is that Obama didn’t choose to stay.

      Three years is a hell of a long time to organise a withdrawal if you want out.

      That being considered, here are the conclusions we can draw from this:-

      1) Obama is being disingenuous when he says that he wants out of Afghanistan; or
      2) Obama is so horribly inept at matters military that he can’t organise a withdrawal in 3 years.

      So I repeat my question, Rick or SimonFromLakemba - what is Obama’s excuse?

    • Rick of the Dustbowl says:

      11:14am | 14/11/11

      Dissa-dent, George W had an IQ the same as his shoe size I can see how you could relate to him, you to nossy

    • PTom says:

      11:34am | 14/11/11

      Dissident is Israel a democratically elected Government or is it a Jewish Religious State?
      As Anti-Israeli is not the same as Anti-Semitic. Just like people can be Anti-Australian or Anti-USA without being Anti-Christian.
      So good work on calling people Anti-Semitic for wanting action taken against the Israeli government, do you also call people racist when people want action taken against China for buying up land?

      BTW heckling the leader of the most powerful nation on earth which advocate free speech. What word am I looking for?

    • PsychoHyena says:

      11:53am | 14/11/11

      @Dissident from what I can gather he has to consider the implications of withdrawing, if he withdraws now would that be taken as an admission of defeat? If so what would the consequences be, will it encourage terrorists to attack America harder next time?

      As much as I hate the whole Afghanistan thing, I can see the sense of taking care when pulling out of a battlefield. so despite what you say Dissident, Obama is actually quite able and is not being disingenuous. I would not trust my military planning to someone who thinks you can sign a piece of paper and have everything go well.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      12:10pm | 14/11/11

      You know you loose the argument when you go after a guy who takes over the war without mentioning the guy who put him there.

      Bush had 7 years in Afghanistan, so if you are having a go at Obama for not doing anything in 3 years ( although he got bush’s bogey man OBL ) then id love to hear what you think of Bush?

      Obama is withdrawing troops, so I dont see what your argument is, apart from your apprent one eyed hatred of Obama.

    • Dissident says:

      12:18pm | 14/11/11

      G’day PTom, hope you are well today.

      I understand your question but I think we are just at a classic debate about definitions. I consider the actions that Israel has taken with the Gaza Strip and Palestine as an Jewish / Israeli policy, not a Government policy. Successive Governments of all stripes have continued with similar policies. Given that the Israeli people are the largest single concentration (in percentage of population terms 76% of all Israelis are Jewish) of Jewish people - I consider that any deliberately anti-Israel policy is inherently anti-Jewish, or anti-semitic. Australia, on the other hand, is not religious to the same extent. Of course, a large portion of Australians identify as Christian, but I don’t think you could ascribe it as a national religion in the same manner as the Jewish Israelis.

      I do understand your point though and understand that anti-semitism is a little loaded with images of the holocaust, so in the future I will use the term anti-Jewish rather than anti-Semetic.

      In the end, though, I think that we need to consider the bigger picture in Israel and the Middle East. The Israelis are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea there because they are surrounded by millions of people who want nothing more than their complete annihilation. If the Arabs were to disarm today, there would be peace in the Middle East tomorrow. If the Israelis were to disarm - they would not exist tomorrow.

      The Green’s policy of boycotting a nation that is desperately clinging to its very existence is really quite abhorrant.

      And I agree - heckling the President is perfectly acceptable in a free society. This is an argument about consistency, not free speech. If they booed Bush for being in Afghanistan, then they should boo Obama for being there too. At least Bush said he was going and delivered. Obama said they were leaving and did not.

    • nossy says:

      12:25pm | 14/11/11

      @Rick of the Dustbowl   all credit to Bush fella - he had the big issues bounced up to him - no quiet easy Presidencey for Bush and he ran two terms. Plus he was formerly the Govenor of Texas so all in all although he wasnt the most eloquent public speaker he faced the difficult decisions with great skill in my opinion. Bush was no fool and no shirker Rick.

    • Dissident says:

      12:50pm | 14/11/11

      PsychoHyena - Yes, there are military matters to be considered when withdrawing. It isn’t about signing a bit of paper and thinking it will be all good.

      What you are talking about, though, is trying to polish the turd and call a withdrawal a victory. There is no way to do that. The US could be there another 100 years but you are never going to winkle the extremists out of the mountains. Whether the US admits defeat now or admits defeat later - they must say uncle at some point. People who are ready, able, willing and DO die for their cause will wait as long as it takes before coming back.

      Freedom is organic. If the people of Afghanistan really want freedom (our style of it anyway) they will fight for it themselves once we are gone. Remember, South Vietnam was ‘democratic’. Forgive the melodrama, but freedom within one nation isn’t a flickering candle to be cupped against the wind by massive external forces. Freedom is a raging inferno in the hearts and minds of men and women that will burn up any obstructions in its way.

      The US was never going to win in Afghanistan the way they wanted to win - going there was a serious mistake. Bush owns that mistake, but that is the important part - he owns it. Obama is still there but he is trying to say it is under duress. Three years of duress is a lot of duress, particularly for the most powerful nation on earth. If they want to pull out, they could do it in all of 1 week. They already missed best time to pull out - after they killed Bin Laden they had the best political cover.

      NB - Moderators. What happened to my other two posts?

      PS. Great nomme-de-plume!

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      02:00pm | 14/11/11

      @Dissident

      Afghan army is put at 170,000 troops by the American DoD, with funding to make that 250,000 or so in a cpl of years, so they are making in roads there, just comes back to who can pay them, thats why some join Taliban cause they pay them and its the only way they could make money.

      Afghanistan is a lost cause, it was for the British, it was for the USSR and now for USA. While Pakistan is there it will never be stable and the current government is corrupt, although supported.

      The best thing Obama can do is what he is doing now, staged withdrawls and see where it goes from there, by the time he withdrawls the middle east could be a total different ball game, with the arab spring, Iran etc.

    • Dissident says:

      02:53pm | 14/11/11

      @ SimonFromLakemba - waiting for other popular uprisings in other countries is not a suitable timetable for withdrawal.

      Afghanistan is lost. No matter when it ends, it is going to be ugly when it ends. The only thing left to do is to end it fast.

      By the way, for all the Bush baggers (that’s you, Rick) - based on his SAT scores and military entrance exams, it is predicted that Bush’s IQ is somewhere in the mid 120’s. He isn’t a genius, but he is in the top 5% with that IQ.

      Got anymore chestnuts from your stock standard Bush hating playbook?

    • Peter B says:

      07:06pm | 14/11/11

      So Dustbowl Rick,

      Have you got a Harvard MBA degree?
      Qualified as a fighter pilot on a jet known as a “widow maker”?
      Been Governor of a US State?

      If not I’d suggest that calling Bush stupid is a case of projection.

    • The Civet says:

      02:55pm | 15/11/11

      Down on your knees you Australian peasants and do what you do best;  Grovel.

    • Against the Man says:

      05:18am | 14/11/11

      Seeing as the fake PM doesn’t care for rules and regulations herself it will be a match made in heaven. Parents everywhere should learn from the fake PM, this is what kind of a poor excuse for a human you become when your parents don’t teach you values.

    • John A Neve says:

      08:31am | 14/11/11

      AtM,
      Please advise us, what are the “rules and regulations” our PM “doesn’t care for”, or is this yet another of your fancies?

    • rb says:

      08:42am | 14/11/11

      @ Man against reality
      The left coalition won the election over the right coalition by the rules. Get over it.

    • jf says:

      09:24am | 14/11/11

      Against the Man says:06:18am | 14/11/11

      “Seeing as the fake PM doesn’t care for rules and regulations “

      Are you on drugs? Gillard’s government loves nothing more than telling people how to run their lives.

    • Mattb says:

      10:03am | 14/11/11

      Calm down guys, ATM has just written a post without referring to the PM as ‘Juliar’ or calling her a liar. Gotta give him credit for that!. He’s changed after hearing on the weekend that tony Abbott has been bullshitting to him about the state of the Aussie economy and debt levels. Big mean, lying Tony has had poor little ATM believing the sky was falling in over the last two years.

    • Mattb says:

      10:20am | 14/11/11

      Actually, has anyone got a link to the speech big Tones made to his conservative counterparts in London over the weekend. Laurie O let us know what he said about the Aussie economy and how it’s the envy of the world. I wonder if tony mentioned anything about our newly passed carbon tax in his speech?. Surely he would have, after all, his entire political career now rests on dismantling it, blood-oath right?. Wonder if he bought it up?, I wonder if he told his English conservative counterparts their newly introduced carbon tax is, like ours, ‘a scam’, ‘a tax on a weightless substance’, ‘an economy destroying policy’ etc etc. Wonder if he referred to climate change science as crap…...

      So many questions, we need a link to that speech Punchers

    • Blind Freddy says:

      10:48am | 14/11/11

      @MattB

      He managed not to use the word “majority” too. A lot of firsts in one post.

    • john says:

      11:06am | 14/11/11

      Even though I vote informally I do recall Howard didn’t learn values either, he presided over the largest corporate collapses in history and did very little relief whilst he was gallivanting all over the world, what about all those promises that were broken because he put them in a non core and core promises bucket?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DpZluacdbI

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixn9fFatdcs&feature=related

      Lets not start on the GST that he did not receive a mandate for and those taxes that were meant to be abolished that still exist post GST and who can ever forget the mercenaries employed to destroy unionism.

      Values? what values?

      Who wouldn’t sell their arse to get into the trappings of office and park their butts their for as long as possible?

    • Against the Man says:

      01:39pm | 14/11/11

      John A, I’m impressed someone who loves attacking my family can talk about rules and caring. Back into that hole, I’ve also noticed others have also commented on this point and you don’t like those memories being brought up over and over again…...........sorry buddy you have soiled your name and reputation, no wonder Gillard is your hero smile

      For the rest of you, I don’t like Gillard, the majority doesn’t like Gillard, Rudd doesn’t like Gillard…..........see the pattern guys? Or is the harsh reality too painful to acknowledge.

    • Rubber Monkey says:

      03:18pm | 14/11/11

      AtM, you don;t speak for the majority.  In this country, our government is run on the Westminster system, and according to that system, we have a Labor government.  I know you don’t like it.  I suggest you learn what the word “democracy” means and get over it.  She’s not the “fake” PM, she IS the PM.  Your opinion of that just shows your non acceptance of our democratic system.

    • rb says:

      03:35pm | 14/11/11

      @ Man against something, You don’t like Gillard. Who cares. The election wasn’t rigged. You don’t like to loss, no-one does. But you weren’t cheated.

    • John A Neve says:

      03:50pm | 14/11/11

      AtM,
      Once again I suggest you substantiate you lies or be condemed for the windbag you are.
      As to your “others”, they are either you or your sick mates, come on little man put up ot shut up.

    • Fer Chrise says:

      03:54pm | 14/11/11

      “Against the Man says:02:47pm | 14/11/11
      Between Obama and Bob Brown, Timmy boy aren’t gonna get any action. Tough times for hair-dresser boy! “

      This pure mindless filth authorised and paid for by Liberal Party Australia, Barton ACT

    • John A Neve says:

      03:59pm | 14/11/11

      “Or is the reality to too painfull to acknowledge” these are the words of AtM. A pathetic little person who hates the world, he even looks in the mirror with disgust.
      But to give him his due, he does know all about lies, in fact he is a master of the game.

    • Unionist says:

      04:03pm | 14/11/11

      ATM doesn’t Julia Gillard coz he works in Bob’s office as a page boy. Julia has stolen all the attention away so he has been having a bitch fit ever since.

    • Against the Man says:

      04:13pm | 14/11/11

      John A Seano, calling me little man is your best response? Well guess I win again liar boy smile

      I’m enjoying the pure frustration the ALPers are experiencing. Seems they have forgotten my initial theory, I’m only reflecting the reality of Gillard. Gillard does a good job and I have no ammo to attack. I know it is a hard concept maybe someday you’ll understand it smile

    • curious says:

      05:39pm | 14/11/11

      I’m really not to sure why anyone responds to the odd things that this AtM posts. I spend more time poking myself in the eye. trollarific.

    • Erick says:

      05:23am | 14/11/11

      “He wouldn’t inject new standards to the department of education, wouldn’t change its functions or adjust its funding. He would just get rid of it.”

      Sounds like a good idea. By all accounts this department wastes increasing amounts of money, while outcomes are decreasing.

      “It is remarkable to hear a national leader nominating education - the engine room of opportunity and economic growth - for abolition.”

      It would indeed be remarkable to hear that - because nobody ever said it. The US Department of Education is not education itself, it’s just a bureaucracy that administers the education sector, and does so rather poorly. It is disingenuous to suggest that abolishing a badly-performing government department would be to abolish education in general.

    • iansand says:

      06:15am | 14/11/11

      Abolish the Education Department and entrench the Tea Party.  Genius.

    • Daemon says:

      06:47am | 14/11/11

      Though that being said, I suspect all of us question American education at times, certainly in the light of their knowledge of things offshore to them.

    • Super D says:

      07:18am | 14/11/11

      I’m guessing that there are around 50 odd state education departments busily running their own bureaucracies.  Perhaps this would be a novel approach to federation - there can be either a state level department or a federal level department but not both.

    • marley says:

      07:34am | 14/11/11

      Well, I do sort of wonder why the US needs a federal department of education when education is a state responsibility.

    • Erick says:

      07:54am | 14/11/11

      @marley - I googled up this explanatory article. Evidently the Department of Education didn’t even exist until 1979. Its chief function appears to be that of doling out grant money.

    • Pork says:

      07:56am | 14/11/11

      What Marley said.  Then apply to Australia.

    • Rocksteady says:

      09:14am | 14/11/11

      The same thing exists in most departments, why do we need 1 federal and 8 state housing ministers?

      Considering that homelessness is rising and housing even more unaffordable they are obviously failing their duties. My guess is that it is useful to have someone else to blame.

    • Economist says:

      09:42am | 14/11/11

      Getting a little sidetracked here from the central premise of the article in your defense of Perry. Perhaps if those against actually understood how the federal education departments evolved in Australia and the US and actually looked what they deliver. In Australia it’s because the Fed holds the purse strings, section 96 of the Constitution and the states are happy to pass the responsibility over.  The federal department is responsible for overseeing the $16B export industry to ensure standards and compliance, protecting the integrity of the industry from unscrupulous providers. It’s responsible for grants to non-government schools and the funding formulas. It links into employment with policy on participation requirements particularly LITNUM, it has responsibility for indigenous education. Myschools etc.  The contentious issue is the national curriculum for Australia.

      In the US the department has less responsibility which is indicative of its size, I believe it is one of the smallest departments. It’s responsible fro mainly ensuring accessibility, because I can’t recall who specifically said it, one of the founding fathers, that education is about information and information is needed for informed choices (paraphrasing majorly). 
      Erick do tell me about this poor administration that you’re so knowledgeable about. Get googling to find your evidence. Note that in the US the Fed department unlike here is not necessarily responsible for standards.

      I also believe both countries have signed on to an international treaty that ensures access to education. 

      This is why Perry’s comment to abolish is nonsense, what should be considered is a targeted set of austerity measures on duplicate functions and getting back to core functionality. Seriously Perry is a corrupt goose as evidenced by his collaboration of with DeLay, that other outstanding elected representative, in trying to rig the electoral process, League of United Latin American Citizens v. Perry. Seriously the US needs a National electoral commission to oversee boundaries and elections.

    • Erick says:

      10:52am | 14/11/11

      @Economist - It was Mal Farr who derailed his own article by making a very silly statement in order to smear Republicans, for no apparent reason.

      As for what’s wrong with the US Department of Education, here’s a start.

    • Eric says:

      11:22am | 14/11/11

      What is the third government department that he would abolish? Rick Perry obviously has Tony Abbott’s foot in mouth disease.

    • Brian Taylor says:

      11:23am | 14/11/11

      @andrew torture during interrogation!!!! as far as I’m concerned good.
      whatever works to get those scum, talking
      they think nothing of blowing up women or kids, but yeah lets think of these scum’s rights.
      get a life

    • Economist says:

      11:54am | 14/11/11

      @Erick the chart you link to is irrelevant, thanks for playing the google game. The US education department is not as concerned with standards as our own. As I indicated, they are primarily responsible for accessibility and developing consistent testing and performance measures for comparisons across states.

      Also, seriously, how many countries ranked in the top 20 educational nations don’t have an administration department responsible for overseeing educational standards, funding etc. To my knowledge the answer is none. Alternatively look at the bottom and you’ll find a different story. I’m always amused when people want to take something completely away without actually understanding why it was introduced in the first place.

      @Eric, I do have to say who cares about a blunder like this in comparison with deliberately trying to abuse the electoral system. I care less about these blunders then the espousing of stupid policies that have no basis in reality.

    • Eric says:

      12:24pm | 14/11/11

      @Economist
      That’s fine, but what’s the third government department that Perry would abolish?

    • marley says:

      12:43pm | 14/11/11

      @Economist - Canada does not have such a Ministry.  The federal government there has a very limited role in education:  it does not set national standards, and does not fund education at the primary or secondary levels. 

      The Canadian provinces are entirely responsible for primary and secondary education.  The provincial systems differ one from another in both curriculum and numbers of years required to complete secondary school.  There is no national curriculum.

      The federal government is responsible for education on the First Nation reservations, but that’s its only role at the primary and secondary level.

      At the tertiary level, the feds there provide some funding to universities (the lion’s share, however, is provided by the provinces) plus they run the student loan program.  Again, they do not set national standards.

      Yet somehow, in spite of its lack of a national education department, Canada ranks ahead of Australia and well ahead of the USA on the OECD’s educational rankings. 

      A unitary state needs a national department of education;  I think it is reasonable to question whether a federal state, in which responsibility for education has been devolved, also needs such a national department.

    • Economist says:

      02:56pm | 14/11/11

      Marley, thank you for that. I stand corrected and agree with your conclusion, though I’d go the other way, no need for state bureaucracy. Hence I believe I stated austerity measures and addressing duplication. I confused myself with what was being stated, I interpreted Erick’s position as no bureaucracy in education which I do not support.

    • Andrew says:

      05:26am | 14/11/11

      I can never forget that George Bush authorised torture during interrogation, thus forever changing the high-principled America I thought I knew into something more like ... well, more like terrorists. Likewise, I can never forget the Tampa affair, when John Howard turned a face of stone and an iron fist toward desperate refugees engaged in a life or death struggle to reach Australia, thus forever changing the welcoming Australia I thought I knew into something more heartless and uncaring ... in my eyes, and in the eyes of the world. Both Bush and Howard misused their power to destroy something fragile and noble in the character of a nation ... I can never forget.

    • malohi says:

      06:27am | 14/11/11

      The eyes of the world? really?
      Do you really think the silent minority is against iron fist refugee policy.
      Pro-tip; The international conventions etc are talk fests for the vocal left.

      Do you honestly think the majority in Australia or US were against waterboarding islamic radicals after 9/11?
      I am not ridiculing your view on it mate, but I think that the silent majority support tough stances on both issues.

    • Erick says:

      06:38am | 14/11/11

      I can never forget that George Bush and John Howard took the necessary actions to keep their respective countries safe in a crisis. Nor can I forget the whingeing of the ignorant leftists who tried to paint these two men as monsters.

    • Old Aussie says:

      06:44am | 14/11/11

      When your existing standard of living has become the same as where these people have come from your attitude to these people will change. If they like the place so much let them become more like usas the earlier immigrants both legal and illegal did, they even became Australian citizens, she’ll be right mate! Either get a brain or get a life. Get rid of all the ghettos.

    • Daemon says:

      06:52am | 14/11/11

      @Erick, apologies, but Bush and Howard could kill children and you wouldn’t see it as bad.

    • malohi says:

      07:03am | 14/11/11

      Daemon
      Bush and Howard have vicariously killed children, going to war brings civilian deaths. Something I am sure weighs heavily on their minds.
      Even knowing this I still respect them. The world is sometimes a bad place, not the utopian wonderland the left envisage. Executive decisions need to be made when running and protecting a country. That means sometimes people are killed, refugees are rejected and information is obtained through questionable means.
      You can say it is a slippery slope; it is, and always was.

    • gobsmack says:

      07:11am | 14/11/11

      @Erick
      I trust that you are not referring to the Iraq invasion.
      To quote the person who was head of Britain’s MI5 at that time:
      “Iraq did not present a threat to the UK,” she said. “The service advised that it was likely to increase the domestic threat and that it was a distraction from the pursuit of al Qaida. I understood the need to focus on Afghanistan. Iraq was a distraction.”

    • Erick says:

      07:26am | 14/11/11

      @Daemon - On the other hand, Bush and Howard could end world poverty, cure cancer and put a unicorn in every garage, and lefties would still see it as bad.

    • MarkS says:

      08:07am | 14/11/11

      Eyes of the world
      Combined China & India are most of the world.

      China? Most Chinese concerned about the waterboarding of terrorists. No

      India? Most Indians concerned about the waterboarding of terrorists. No, cheering maybe.

      The world of your living room perharps.

    • AdamC says:

      08:26am | 14/11/11

      I have always been concerned about this characterisation of water-boarding as torture. It is obviously quite an extreme technique but if, as Christopher Hitchens did, you are willing to subject yourself to an interrogation practice to determine whether you think it is torture or not, my view is that it probably isn’t. I mean, nobody has to zap their genitals or pull out their fingernails to know that’s a form of torture.

    • Anthony says:

      09:07am | 14/11/11

      Howard and Bush were murderers?  Gillard and Obama inherited the problem? The only problem I have if it were so wrong to begin with why do we still support the war and killing of civillians in Afganastan. If the murder and genocide were so obvious shouldn’t a unilateral exit be the only solution to the greatest moral dilema of all time? See how raising points out of context can be stupid exercise!

    • John says:

      09:08am | 14/11/11

      Andrew - there are thousands of people dying right now. You can help save them. Give all your worldly goods to save the children. Spend all your time working to send them more money - especially the time you will spend replying to this. Haven’t done it yet - how stoney faced! Personally I care about these others to the same extent they care about me & mine - not one jot!

    • jf says:

      09:30am | 14/11/11

      Andrew says:06:26am | 14/11/11

      “I can never forget that George Bush authorised torture during interrogation”

      Do you mean the torture that left-wing journalists willingly undertake to make a point. The torture that one journalist, having willingly being subjtected to it, was so dissatisfied with the results for his report that he asked to do it again.

      Sounds horrible.

    • andye says:

      09:51am | 14/11/11

      @Erick - Howard/Bush screwed up the war on terror. Invading Iraq was the worst thing we could have done at that point. You can blow all the smoke you want about ” ignorant leftists”, but torture revelations like at Abu Ghraib were the greatest victory for our enemy.

      Torture helped our enemy far more than it helped us. Invading Afghanistan was the last competent decision your guys made in this war. Populist incompetent decisions based on the emotional hate-filled right push that happened after 9/11.

    • Erick says:

      11:04am | 14/11/11

      @andye - The Abu Ghraib issue was wildly mischaracterised and overreported. This was purely a domestic effort to discredit Bush. There was mistreatment at Abu Ghraib, but no systematic torture.

      Outside the US itself, Abu Ghraib is a non-issue compared to the real torture dealt out by Middle eastern regimes bot then and now. Ignorant leftists should inform themselves about what was done to those imprisoned by Muammar Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein before blabbering on about “torture”.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      11:08am | 14/11/11

      ” I can never forget that George Bush and John Howard took the necessary actions to keep their respective countries safe in a crisis “

      Yes Australia was a huge terrorist threat at that moment in time…

      Johnny just got caught up in the moment as he was in Washington at the time.

    • john says:

      11:24am | 14/11/11

      @Andrew ....here’s a tissue dry your eyes, the world is changing- 7 billion and counting, Australia with ~22million and rising has now forced us to build costly desalination plants, just water resource required to sustain current standards will stretch us, cities are turning into bursting metropolises that are placing further strains like power supply,transport,healthcare etc.. Not to mention a far more dangerous quarantine risk of infectious disease that can seriously affect the population and devastate agriculture.

      Australia can ill afford an open door policy to strain the 22 million for the sake of a few that can spark a flood of illegal immigration where the above issues become amplified.

      Unless its a boat load of children in an emergency situation out at sea, to bring them onto the mainland for safety and quarantined for six months before release into the general community, the offshore processing is the only way for containment. & control.

    • wearestardust says:

      11:45am | 14/11/11

      @Erick: torture was absolutely systematic in Iraq (I wonder if you are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan btw) and people died of it.  to repeat: The.  US.  Tortured.  People.  To.  Death.  In.  Iraq.  Of course other middle-eastern countries are worse (the Us outsources its interrogations to some of them) but does that make it better?  Your being an apologist for torture makes you look like, on this particular topic, you’re letting someone else do your thinking for you.

    • andye says:

      12:16pm | 14/11/11

      @Erick -  ” Ignorant leftists should inform themselves about what was done to those imprisoned by Muammar Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein before blabbering on about “torture”.”

      Don’t lecture me on torture in Islamic regimes, Erick. I informed myself first hand, over there. I lost someone as a result of what was done to them. You condescend from your lofty position as an internet expert with the arrogant assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is uninformed. It is a handy way of sidestepping defence of your arguments, which often hinge on one unfounded statement.

      “Outside the US itself, Abu Ghraib is a non-issue”
      ^ See, there is one now!

      Our enemy wanted us to come to Iraq and fight them there. They wanted us to sacrifice our own beliefs at the first sign of danger. They wanted propaganda fodder to drive their push towards a worldwide jihad. They even wanted to get rid of Saddam Hussein. When we lost focus on Afghanistan and went into Iraq, we did exactly what our enemy wanted.

      You can make broad claims that Abu Ghraib and so on don’t matter, but that is crap. These things matter because they can be used against us. They demolish our moral superiority. The terrorists don’t have armies, they don’t have broad support. They need to grow all this. The more they can turn the west (in general) against Islam and vice-versa, the better.

      Of course, you will probably ignore the actual argument I am making (that Howard/Bush made a serious strategic error in the war on terror) and throw back a response against a leftist strawman.

    • Leto says:

      12:32pm | 14/11/11

      I think there is truth in what you say Andrew. I too feel as if our national identiy has been damaged by a short sighted and immoral foreign policy.

      Who would have thought that people who have so much could be such selfish pricks.

    • Lies says:

      01:15pm | 14/11/11

      All you people touting the left-right paradigm are fools. Torture is wrong in any circumstance and it is used to extract false confessions regularly. You may feel that you’re a tough dinky di aussie bloke / sheila but i guarantee you 15 minutes in a room with an american interrogator given full authorization to used ‘advanced techniques’ and you would be telling them anything and everything they want to hear.

      It sickens me how blood-thirsty the baby boomer generation is having grown up believing we (USA / UK / AUS) are the good guys; liberating people and bringing ‘freedom’ to the world. How do you even know all these people being tortured did anything wrong?? Just because someone said so??

      Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just used so people will go to their deaths to obtain a strategic point somewhere on the earth, that already extremely rich people and corporations benefit from - All in the name of patriotism.

    • Erick says:

      01:42pm | 14/11/11

      @WAS - “torture was absolutely systematic in Iraq (I wonder if you are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan btw) and people died of it.”

      Yes, it was, under Saddam’s dictatorship. The US ended that.

      @andye - If you can seriously compare the aberrations of a small group of US soldiers for a brief period at Abu Ghraib with what many Middle Eastern regimes have systematically done to their own citizens for decades, then you have no sense of proportion or perspective.

    • Referee says:

      02:01pm | 14/11/11

      Erick = owned

    • Referee says:

      02:01pm | 14/11/11

      Erick = owned

    • andye says:

      04:02pm | 14/11/11

      @Erick - ” If you can seriously compare the aberrations of a small group of US soldiers for a brief period at Abu Ghraib with what many Middle Eastern regimes have systematically done to their own citizens for decades, then you have no sense of proportion or perspective.”

      It doesn’t matter, Erick. Nobody is handing out a prize at the end for the least torturing side.

      It matters because it gives our enemy ammo against us. Look at the 1979 Iranian revolution. Khomeini quickly discovered that a great way to unite his people was to give them a common enemy - the Great Satan, USA.

      The hearts and minds that the terrorists need are not ours. They are those of the vast majority of Muslims. I don’t know about you, but I try to not give my enemy what they need.

    • wearestardust says:

      08:15pm | 14/11/11

      Come on, Erick, you’re clearly a smart guy. You know that references to torture in Iraq are about the systematic and specifically authorised (through legal fictions) interrogation techniques such as waterboarding, not the ‘animal house on the nightshift’.  If you want to make an argument that torture is OK so long it is it us not them, or OK so long as it doesn’t hurt as much as a middle-eastern torturer’s best efforts, or because Jack Bauer did it, or whatever: then fill yer boots - but don’t treat us like dummies and try to duck the issue by pretending not to know the difference.

      The confusion I referred to was in relation to your response to the hyperbole about Bush and Howard.  When people talk about the illegal war of Bush and Howard, they mean Iraq (unless in dingbat Chomsky or Pilger mode).  You responded with a reference to doing what needed to be done, by which I presume you meant Afghanistan (unless you are indulging in the historical revisionism of it-wasn’t-the-WMDs-it-was-about-saving-theIraqi-people).  Iraq =/= Afghanistan.  That’s the possible confusion I was referring to.

    • nossy says:

      06:04am | 14/11/11

      Looks like Obama and Gillard already have a good rapport. I just hope Dr NO doesnt screw up his welcome speech like he did with NZ PM Keys. Strewth that was cringeworthy! Abbott is currently in the UK getting some tips from PM Cameron, god knows what on - it cant be the Carbon Tax because Cameron supports one and ........  hang on a mo so does Abbott!  hahahahhha Ohh how sweet it is!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12PN66IBoPs

    • Felipe says:

      09:17am | 14/11/11

      Gillard loves to kiss Obama and it makes me cringe.  I hope Michelle puts her foot down and tell Gillard hands off!
      With regards Abbott, who knows maybe it is Cameron who is asking for advice and techniques from Abbott.  Because if an election is held now or close to the end of the year Labour and Gillard will be wiped off the political map.

    • glenm says:

      10:59am | 14/11/11

      If your after cringeworthy try sitting through Gillards address to the American joint sitting, her fake tears in response to the moon landing, which was a direct ripoff Bono, was the most appaling and pathetic display by an Australian PM.

    • nossy says:

      11:28am | 14/11/11

      @glenm and yet despite your loathing of it she got a prolonged standing ovation - time to “adjust your set” fella !  hhahahahhaaaaaa

    • glenm says:

      12:34pm | 14/11/11

      So you honestly think it is appropriate for a PM to plagiarise the speech of another and pass it off as her own in front of the world.  Americans would give a standing ovation to a clown if it got up and sang the star spangled banner.  Time to adjust your brain moron.

    • Will says:

      02:09pm | 14/11/11

      Wow! Thanks Nossy, I hadn’t seen that one yet. That is an absolute ripper! It’s probably the most articulate I’ve ever heard the man and he’s advocating a carbon tax. How are the libs and their supporters explaining that?

    • PTom says:

      03:35pm | 14/11/11

      glenm,
      Typical Bolt nutter you do realise most of the western world watch the moon landing and had a impact on lives everywhere. Two people speaking about a shared childhood event from different parts of the world is not uncommon these days.

      Like would it be plagiarise for two people to talk about 9/11 because it is so then Howard is also plagiarist.

      The only plagiarist in parliament is Julie Bishop.

    • Frank says:

      04:03pm | 14/11/11

      @Will   They’re explaining it by saying that if John Howard or Tony Abbott propose something, they’re all for it, but if Labor propose it, they’re completely against it.

    • Paul says:

      05:00pm | 14/11/11

      Nossy,
      Isn’t Abbott saying that ‘IF the challenge is to put a price on carbon, why not use a carbon tax’.... That isn’t supporting a carbon tax.

      If I said “if the challenge is to kill small children, why not do it while they sleep”, it doesn’t mean that I am pro-killing small children?!?

      Your logic is flawed.

    • nossy says:

      05:31pm | 14/11/11

      @Paul   thats only one instance of Abbott actually supporting a Carbon Tax and an ETS in 2009 Paul - he is the Karma Sutra kid!

    • Paul says:

      08:40pm | 14/11/11

      It seems pretty obvious (to all but the rusted on reds) that abbots view there was a political stance only. Just like labors political stance of not taking it’s migration act changes to a vote.

    • Joan says:

      06:32am | 14/11/11

      The only reason Obama coming to Australia is to put a military base in Darwin and he has finally got to the bottom of the list of his must visit countries. Of course he`s grateful re Afghanistan as Gillard has promised to keep Australian troops there long after USA has withdrwan.

    • Mickey T says:

      08:49am | 14/11/11

      @ Joan - “Gillard has promised to keep Australian troops there long after USA has withdrwan”

      According to who?  You?

    • Anna C says:

      09:09am | 14/11/11

      Peter Garret is suprisingly silent about the military base.

    • Charity Box says:

      09:26am | 14/11/11

      Anna C

      I don’t think we have to worry about Peter Garret anymore,I think Kristina Keneally will be in his seat next election.

    • Rocksteady says:

      09:46am | 14/11/11

      Straight up Anna - Garrett (and other labour mp’s) are surprisingly falling into line. Nothing short of hypocrisy from the Labor left.

    • Joan says:

      10:01am | 14/11/11

      Gillard said Australian troops to remain in Afghanistan for the long haul at least another decade. Obama said US troops out by 2014.

    • John A Neve says:

      10:14am | 14/11/11

      Joan,
      I am still awaiting a response from yesterday!
      Tell me, do you always cut and run?

    • Erick says:

      11:54am | 14/11/11

      @AnnaC - I believe the faceless men had Peter Garret’s tongue surgically removed in early 2008.

    • PTom says:

      12:45pm | 14/11/11

      Joan,

      The US is pulling 30,000 COMBAT troops by 2014 which still leaves 70,000 troops. Our PM was talking about all types of Aussie Troops.

      Anna C
      In 2007 Garret already made a statement regarding this type of event.
      If you join a party you accept to take on the party policies. Just ask Brenden Nelson.

    • watty says:

      06:34am | 14/11/11

      I vaguely remember “rumours” that our allies and new chums.
      Germany.Japan and China may have resorted to torture but all ok now.

      I do remember Great Britain opening its doors to mass immigration and the mess that created.The recent inquiry into the relaxing of document checking at British air and sea ports exposed that over 2.000.000 immigrants were untracweable Both sides of politics admitted that the criminal element had
      entered the U.K but wherabouts unknown.

    • john of solomon says:

      06:42am | 14/11/11

      Andrew you may be interested to know that at least two of the candidates currently vying to be the next president of the u.s. have publicly stated that they have no problem with the use of waterboarding in interrogations. Also, at least howard’s strategy for dealing with illegal boat people reduced the number of boats arriving therefore possibly saving lives, what has gillard done? I think you are too precious.

    • Static says:

      11:31am | 14/11/11

      No I think the republicans are running out of candidates because they find out that they either cant keep it in their pants or are barking mad. No wonder Obamas smiling

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      06:49am | 14/11/11

      Hi Malcolm,

      Times are definitely changing for the better we all hope, what Mr George W Bush might have said in the past seems so irrelevant not!  It is the first for a female Prime Minister of Australia & also another first for the Americans with their very first African American President, Mr Barrack Obama. That alone should be good enough for a celebration & a happy meeting on both sides on the both continents of the Pacific Ocean, as far as I am concerned!!

      Mr Barrack Obama himself is definitely having a rough time with what is going on In the USA economically & it is also a crunch time with tough decisions regarding Afghanistan, mainly!!  Interestingly enough long after the elections win or lose, most Politicians need to form stable, solid foundations &  relationships with their International counter parts.As well as have the right connections just in case, when it comes to the fact even the longest serving Leaders will eventually retire from politics!!  I also feel they need something to fall back on concerning their career paths.

      A bit like Bill Clinton, Paul Keating, John Howard & Bob Hawke!!  Right now, it is very difficult & too soon to say for certain if both Leaders have managed to achieve much during their political careers, anyway!.  Which only happens to be their first & may be the toughest test they have been through already!!  Come election time, it will be another close race on both sides of the Pacific Ocean.  And only time will actually tell that Mr Obama’s decisions made any difference to the Foreign Relations mainly in the Middle Eastern Region.  Also in his home town, the USA.  Best regards to your editors.

    • Mayday says:

      07:09am | 14/11/11

      Obama and Gillard….two wrongs do not make a right!

    • PTom says:

      12:00pm | 14/11/11

      Mayday,
      But two Rights do make a wrong if it is Bush and Howard.

    • Tommy Gun says:

      01:07pm | 14/11/11

      Brillliant PTom; spot on!

    • james says:

      03:02pm | 14/11/11

      Ptom +100

    • Dave says:

      06:55am | 14/11/11

      “But what must have struck many Australians was that one of the two departments he did remember was set for extinction was education. He wouldn’t inject new standards to the department of education, wouldn’t change its functions or adjust its funding. He would just get rid of it.

      It is remarkable to hear a national leader nominating education - the engine room of opportunity and economic growth - for abolition.”

      I wonder if Malcolm Farr is aware that the Department of Education was created by Jimmy Carter in the 1970s? Incredibly, generations of Americans were raised and educated before this massive federal department was created.

      Perhaps Malcolm Farr can explain what benefit has been reaped from the huge cost of it, as well as government programs such as No Child Left Behind. Perhaps he could also explain why the federal government must be responsible for education, when it is not an enumerated power within the US Constitution.

      The idea that the only way to support “education” is through enormous centralised, unaccountable government departments is a sad reflection of the author’s politics.

    • Greg says:

      12:10pm | 14/11/11

      Farr is just hoping for an ignorant audience - one that will believe that the abolition of the UD federal Dept of Education is equivalent to closing down all schools.

      It’s a standard left wing tactic: mislead people, and rely on their ignorance and their lack of motivation to verify the claims.

      The US Education department does not employ teachers or run schools. It is a administrative bureacracy, which attempts to bribe schools with federal funding in order to force compliance with their ideological policies.

      The possibility exists that Farr is too ignorant to know this, but it is more likely that he is fully aware, and is deliberately misleading people. In the pre-internet feedback days, he probably would have got away with it too.

    • Erick says:

      01:51pm | 14/11/11

      Well said, Dave & Greg.

      Farr is using an underhanded journalistic tactic, but he has been caught out.

      The Internet has the ability to keep journalists honest - or at least to expose them when they aren’t.

    • Will says:

      02:28pm | 14/11/11

      “mislead people, and rely on their ignorance and their lack of motivation to verify the claims”

      I suppose it’s all relative Greg because to me, you’ve succinctly and accurately summarised Tony Abbott’s political playbook, particularly when applied to debates like the carbon tax or the mining tax.

      In fact, that one line could be the closest thing to an Abbott policy that we’ve seen to date.

    • Will says:

      02:28pm | 14/11/11

      “mislead people, and rely on their ignorance and their lack of motivation to verify the claims”

      I suppose it’s all relative Greg because to me, you’ve succinctly and accurately summarised Tony Abbott’s political playbook, particularly when applied to debates like the carbon tax or the mining tax.

      In fact, that one line could be the closest thing to an Abbott policy that we’ve seen to date.

    • AdamC says:

      03:02pm | 14/11/11

      Actually, Will, I tend to find that the level of one’s support for both the carbon tax, and Kevin Rudd’s RSPT before it, has an inverse relationship to one’s understanding it. At the risk of feeding the troll (in for a penny, in for a pound after all) care to explain why the carbon tax is a good thing when:

      1) It won’t, in and of itself, do anything to reduce global emissions;
      2) As a result of 1) it will not do anything to limit climate change;
      3) Trade exposed industries have not been fully compensated, so will become less competitive; and
      4) The effects on many things, but especially electricity generation, are uncertain, and may be greater than currently imagined.

    • F.W.G. says:

      07:45am | 14/11/11

      I don’t know who is the biggest dud Obama or Gillard, and both will not be reelected.

    • Mickey T says:

      08:59am | 14/11/11

      Obama is an absolute ‘monty’ for re-election…look who he is up against (bigger duds) as for Gillard..if Abbott is still leading the LNP, then she also is a ‘monty’ for re-election…duds don’t come much bigger than Abbott.

    • Anna C says:

      09:11am | 14/11/11

      Mitt Romney or Ron Paul look like decent candidates to me.

    • Rocksteady says:

      10:02am | 14/11/11

      Obama will easily be re elected.
      Which is shame because Ron Paul might have actually sorted things out.

    • Nilbog says:

      10:43am | 14/11/11

      @ Mickey T

      If you are willing to back Gillard at monty odds, I bet every bookie (or punter in a lay bet) would jump on that bet.

      You obviously don’t know a great deal about punting, despite throwing about a term like monty… lol

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      11:05am | 14/11/11

      Obama has a good shot at getting back in, Gillard who knows? Abbott has been slipping recently and when pressed on policy he makes a mess of it.

      Ron Paul should be in line to be the president, but if you are a Republican contender and Fox News arnt giving you much coverage then you are doomed.

    • Mickey T says:

      11:21am | 14/11/11

      @ Nilbog…If Abbott is still leading the LNP at the next election then yes, I will back Gillard to win, I’ll call it a ‘shoo-in’ instead of a ‘monty’. Obama’s still a ‘monty’ as well as a ‘good-thing’.

    • subotic says:

      12:51pm | 14/11/11

      @F.W.G. Obama will be back again, and the way things are here, Gillard will make a second run. The only contender slightly close to Obama at the moment is Romney, and as a Mormon, he doesn’t stand a chance. Religion in America beats policy 10 to 1, and up until Kennedy, all US presidents were Protestants and Masons. And America is totally not ready for a president who wears super-special underwear, thinks that a lost tribe of Israel existed in the US, and reads a book that claims to have been given by God yet stated that black people on earth are a cursed. At least that book did until about 1975, after which that verse miraculously vanished. Praise Jeebus!

      As for Gillard, unless some independent mastermind steps up to the plate, it’s Gillard vs Abbott with the loser being… Australia.

    • Alf says:

      07:47am | 14/11/11

      Gillard and Obama, what a pair of losers.

    • Garnet says:

      11:29am | 14/11/11

      Yeah. Prime Minister of Australia and President of the United States. Their parents must be so disappointed. What’s your claim to fame, by the way, Alf?

    • PTom says:

      12:06pm | 14/11/11

      @Garnet,
      Don’t you remember he had his own TV show.

    • Garnet says:

      12:20pm | 14/11/11

      Where do you think I got my nic, you scouse git?

    • Greg says:

      12:21pm | 14/11/11

      Yeah Garnet, if Gillard or Obama were one of my children then I would be disappointed.

      I would rather them retain their integrity in anonymity than become famous for idiocy.

    • Kika says:

      12:35pm | 14/11/11

      Yeah - he crashed his spaceship into a suburban LA house and managed to remain undetected for quite a few seasons. He almost made it home to Melmac again, but he missed the ship…. that’s pretty impressive. Plus he was pretty good at American English which is cool for a Melmacian.

    • Garnet says:

      01:16pm | 14/11/11

      I’d hate to think how your parents must feel then, Greg.

    • Alf says:

      04:13pm | 14/11/11

      @Garnet. I would like to tell you my claims to fame, but modesty forbids. One thing I haven’t managed to achieve yet is f*&$ing up a perfectly good country like this pair of economic dimwits.

    • Garnet says:

      04:49pm | 14/11/11

      @Alf   I knew it. You wouldn’t make a Prime Minister’s or President’s bootlaces. Your parents must be so proud.

    • Greg says:

      02:57pm | 15/11/11

      Yes Garnet, I do have parents who are proud of me, and it doesn’t surprise me that that generates jealousy and hatred within you.

      But jealousy and hatred is what happens when all you have is the anonymity and idiocy combination. You should be used to those feelings by now.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:53am | 14/11/11

      What I’ve never understood about the education system is how such clear KPIs (pass/fail whatever) can be applied to the students, but similarly stringent standards aren’t applied to the teachers.

    • Michael says:

      02:17pm | 14/11/11

      Unionised.

    • BP says:

      03:05pm | 14/11/11

      @Mahhrat. Clear KPIs for the students??? They went out of fashion yonks ago. From what I see of education from my own kids current schooling is that no matter how poorly you are doing it is near impossible to fail.

      English and basic maths are no longer considered necessary skills, as long as you know about SOSE you are good to go.

      I recently played darts with a newly matriculated senior school leaver who, even with the aid of a blackboard, had trouble doing simple subractions for a game of 501. He’s a great kid who knows what he wants for his future and has realised that he left school deficient the basics required to be competitive in todays world. He has now enrolled at TAFE to redo the maths he should have been taught properly at school in the first place.

      Is it the teachers fault he didn’t receive the education he deserved? His? Or the system that now frowns upon little Johnny or Betty being held to an acceptable standard and removes any tools that help to enforce said standard in the first place?

    • youdy beaudy says:

      08:05am | 14/11/11

      Julia should get a peck on the cheek. Many slander her name and her boyfriend but really i think she is not so bad as they say. She gave a most wonderful and genuine speech at the chogm meeting and welcomed the queen and the guests beautifully. I was very proud of her on that occasion. She stood up very well for her country.


      she

    • Chris says:

      08:27am | 14/11/11

      I would not be too concerned about any sort of alliance between Obama and Gillard. It is merely a marriage of convenience. The US wants a base here. They believe they can benefit more than Australia from any relationship. That is the only reason for their interest. Australia does not otherwise matter. Many Americans do not know where Australia is or they confuse it with Austria. Those who do know where it is know next to nothing about it. What is more, they are not interested.
      Get it straight folks. Australia is not important. It does not matter to the rest of the world except as a location for a possible military base.

    • Boo says:

      06:58am | 15/11/11

      I don’t know what “many Americans” you know, but the many Americans I know most certainly are very aware of where we are, nor do they confuse it with Austria. And the ‘many Americans’ I know are very interested.

    • Chuck says:

      08:40am | 14/11/11

      So F18 hornets on stand by. Must be for the prospect of the 2 recently self confessed jihadists released for threatening to kill women and children in Melbourne getting a cessna from moorabin.
      Why are they still in this country anyway?
      Weak leadership and equally weak legal system me thinks.
      PS. I thought successive governments have being doing a good job at eliminating education if one perchance happens to observe the dumbing down of our systems.

    • prosperity says:

      08:44am | 14/11/11

      The President of the United States of America comes to survey his vassal state of Australia, and to convey in person his new marching orders. The sheeple of Australia watch on, gaily waving the American flag, having lost all sense of their once proud nation’s sovereignty. Meanwhile in China, two missiles are recalibrated for their respective targets, Darwin and Pine Gap.

    • Rocksteady says:

      09:18am | 14/11/11

      Aligning ourselves with a crumbling superpower who tramples over the rest of the world is only going to bring trouble to our peaceful little corner of earth.

    • Economist says:

      09:20am | 14/11/11

      Can we cut out the anti-American nonsense. The fact is we have a treaty with American’s, we have similar values and interests. I welcome the added support to US marines from our base.

      Did you pinch ‘sheeple’ from FDOT?

    • AdamC says:

      11:52am | 14/11/11

      Oh, no, Economist - we agree on something! (Should we panic?)

    • St. Michael says:

      12:07pm | 14/11/11

      In case you hadn’t noticed, prosperity, Pine Gap has been around for a long, long time.  Both Russia and China alike had their missiles aimed at it for quite a while, too.  Not to mention any deepwater port we have where a US carrier could resupply.

      But—and I’m sure it must gall you to the bone—the reason those missiles haven’t been launched and why we haven’t been invaded by another local power is because there are another good few hundred missiles sitting somewhere in the American midwest and aimed right at Beijing and various other sites in China.

      Those missiles are the primary reason we have not seen a major international conventional war for the past 60 years.  Me, I’m happy they’re so aimed.

      People love to yell “fuck tha police” until they actually need a cop.  If Indonesia or China were coming over the horizon you’d be first into your bunker screaming for a flight of F18s with the stars and stripes.  Get used to it.

    • Economist says:

      01:10pm | 14/11/11

      @AdamC, no need to panic. We can still metaphorically take 10 paces, square off and shoot off our rhetoric and views at one another. There’s sitll plenty to discuss and have different POV on. Personally I can be pro-American, as in their values, and still criticise some of their policies, mainly those enacted by Republicans grin

      Besides didn’t we agree on workplace flexibility over maximum working hours, didnlt we agree that their are poor workers in both the public and private sector and that you should judge an individual on their contribution.

    • prosperity says:

      01:57pm | 14/11/11

      St. Michael and others:  Australia should be a peaceful, non-aligned nation other than one with cultural, trade, economic, and yes, military agreements with its regional neighbours.  We need not have anybody’s missiles aimed at us, and surely we should not be obligated to join America in its military adventures.  Will Australia seriously go to war with China over Taiwan? If the sheeple knew more about Pine Gap they wouldn’t stand for it on Australian soil. As for no major international wars allegedly thanks to American missiles, you obviously place scant value on the millions killed and injured in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Iran and others, all underwritten by the USA. I am a loyal Australian, and it is to my profound regret that in the post-war era we have evolved into no more than an American puppet state. I will never get used to it. You lick American boots as much as you like.

      P.S. to ‘economist’: What is FDOT?  I thought ‘sheeple’ was my own work. I’ve been using it for sixty years. Suggesting that Australians and Americans share common values and interests is a myth promulgated by Hollywood and the rest of the propaganda machine.  Research the way Americans think about religion and the role destiny has charted for them and you’ll see that there’s no place for us, other than as a resource to be exploited while it suits.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:34pm | 14/11/11

      “Australia should be a peaceful, non-aligned nation other than one with cultural, trade, economic, and yes, military agreements with its regional neighbours.”

      Right.  Keep telling yourself that while we have natural resources the envy of said regional neighbours.  Poland used to be a peaceful, non-aligned nation with cultural, trade, economic and military agreements with some of its regional neighbours, too.  And they were first to sign up for NATO once the Soviets got out of Poland after fifty years of cultural and financial repression under communist boots.

      “We need not have anybody’s missiles aimed at us, and surely we should not be obligated to join America in its military adventures.”

      It’s called an “alliance”.  Look up World War 2, you might learn something.  And rest assured that the missiles are aimed, whether we are lovey-dovey friends with China or not.

      “As for no major international wars allegedly thanks to American missiles, you obviously place scant value on the millions killed and injured in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Iran and others, all underwritten by the USA.”

      I said no major international conventional war, by which you I’m sure understood as World War 1 and World War 2.
      - Korea was an attack by communist North Korea.  The response was a UN force sent into South Korea, which the US made up the overwhelming partner in.  The US was not acting alone.
      - Vietnam happened due to a communist takeover in North Vietnam, and eventually South Vietnam.  South Vietnam requested US help in fighting the North, and the US agreed.  Before you talk about the millions supposedly killed as the fault of the US, you might consider the millions killed by the Viets and the Cambodians next door by their own people.  Ever hear of “The Killing Fields”?
      - Iraq rolled into Kuwait first.  The US did not shoot first.  Iraq also has gassed its own citizens, the Kurds.  The US did not.  And the liberation of Kuwait was, again, a UN-sanctioned incursion which the US led, not the US acting on its own.
      - Iran: if you’re referring to the Iran/Iraq war, the US was not involved in that one other than supplying arms, which got fired back at the US by Iraq over Kuwait a few years later.  Otherwise the US has not been involved in any conventional war in Iran.

      The West’s involvement in Korea and Vietnam were entirely justified, based only on the results after Vietnam was over: tens of thousands of South Vietnamese murdered by their own people, and hundreds of thousands more in Cambodia.  That happened because of the loss of the US and the allies there.

      The same did not happen in Korea, where North Korea was pushed back to the Chinese border when the armistice was finally signed.  Kuwait remains free because of the US’s intervention: do you remember the stories of how Iraqi soldiers were pulling Kuwaiti mens’ moustaches and beards out with pliers when those Kuwaitis had sworn not to shave until Kuwait was free?

      “I am a loyal Australian, and it is to my profound regret that in the post-war era we have evolved into no more than an American puppet state. I will never get used to it. You lick American boots as much as you like.”

      Just as you and your forebears licked British boots until we were left in the lurch by Winston et. al.

    • prosperity says:

      05:55pm | 14/11/11

      St Michael: Stop being so gratuitous.  Firstly, the wars to which I referred have been the subject of a lot of historical research that you perhaps should read.  Of course preceding those was WWII, and in that instance Japan went to war after the USA posed draconian economic sanctions on Japan, starving the nation of everything, including oil.  And you thought the Pacific War was started by Pearl Harbour. Then there are the facts regarding chemical warfare by the USA in Korea. Or try looking up the “Gulf of Tonkin incident, on which the USA predicated the Vietnam war. Check the war on Iraq, famously initiated by the USA based on its intelligence relating to ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction’.
      The USA, covertly and overtly, has been at war the world over for the last sixty years in its quest for world domination and natural resources.  Now its intent is to choke China of resources while geographically encircling China with military bases that threaten a first nuclear strike (which China will not undertake).  We are part of that American plan.

      Surely we both would like to see a peaceful 21st century in which millions of people are NOT killed. That is not the agenda of the United States of America. Bush heard the word of God. Their current crop of presidential candidates believe that God has selected America to fulfil His agenda on earth.  These guys are stir-crazy, and you want them running this country? There is a better way, and I believe Australia can be a small but potent force for peace in the South Pacific and beyond.

    • marley says:

      07:18pm | 14/11/11

      @prosperity - I’m sorry, but your take on history is, how shall I put it, somewhat skewed. 

      You talk of American economic sanctions on Japan.  Can we also discuss Japanese territorial ambitions in China?  How about the conquest of Manchuria and the rape of Nanking?  The Americans imposed harsh economic sanction on Japan in about 1940 - the Japanese had been marching through China for the preceding 10 years.

      As for Vietnam - that war had been going on for decades before the Americans got involved.  They certainly didn’t start the war. 

      As to Australia being a power in the Pacific - get real.  This part of the Pacific is already a Chinese lake. So, if you’re happy to kowtow to the Chinese instead of the Americans, fine.  But kowtowing to one or the other is what Australia will do.

    • prosperity says:

      07:28am | 15/11/11

      Marley:  More gratuitous advice about my take on history from yet another great oracle. I didn’t say the Americans started the war in Vietnam, they only started THEIR war in Vietnam. Nor am i saying that nations other than the USA are guiltless. Nor do I accept the prevailing wisdom of the Australian sheeple that we must ‘kowtow’ to anyone, but if I had to choose between the Americans and the Chinese I would go with the Chinese - the food would be better.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:04am | 15/11/11

      “if I had to choose between the Americans and the Chinese I would go with the Chinese - the food would be better.”

      Well, if you could eat it between getting rolled over by tanks in Tiannemen Square, perhaps it might.  And heaven help you actually trying to compare your rice with rice from the US, because the Internet there is heavily censored and watched by the Party.

      And yes, we do have to kowtow to some people.  That’s what happens when, unlike New Zealand, you have a massive land mass, burgeoning natural resources, and a standing army that would last maybe six weeks against a conventional force before having to surrender.  Grow up.

    • nossy says:

      09:07am | 14/11/11

      Heres some info on Air Force One , the Prez’s conveyance into Australia - seems like a nice ride. Now someone told me and I dont know if its true but when AF1 lands at an airport the airport is closed to traffic whilst it lands?
      http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/air-force-one

    • redvixen says:

      12:58pm | 14/11/11

      @ nossy - We were in Rome in 2004 and George W visited.  The airport was closed for the entire visit.  All the planes and passengers were required to use the other airport.  It was absolute bedlam.  Notifications from the airline weren’t sent out (via e-mail) until the evening before and a lot of people who we caught the shuttle bus with hadn’t checked their e-mail so didn’t even know about the changes.  A lot of people missed flights, connecting flights and business meetings.  The airline couldn’t tell us when our flight would leave, because they simply didn’t know.  So we sat on the floor and played backgammon for 7 hours!  (Don’t believe I’ve touched a backgammon board since).

    • nossy says:

      01:30pm | 14/11/11

      @redvixen excellent redvixen so it is true huh? Well we know not to be anywhere AF1 is dont we!  I notice yesterday the big Galaxy planes flying in bringing “equipment” - this fella does not travel lightly does he.

    • Watcher says:

      09:07am | 14/11/11

      On September 4, 1995, a 12-year-old girl was returning home at 8:30pm after shopping in a neighborhood store near a U.S. military base. Abducted by three U.S. servicemen in a car, her hands, eyes, and mouth bound with duct tape, she was raped, dumped out of the car, and left by the side of a road. Her assailants—two Marines and a sailor—had rented the car inside the base, purchased duct tape and condoms, and left the base with the purpose of abducting a woman and raping her.
      The rape of this girl was reported worldwide, but most crimes by U.S. troops
      (including rape, assault, and murder) are not. Official reports estimate more than 5,394 military crimes against Okinawan people from 1972 to 2005.
      These crime figures are a conservative estimate as many crimes are not reported, perhaps especially violence against women. The bases are also associated with drug use and the spread of HIV/AIDS.
      US Military personnel are shielded from local laws and are only disciplined by military authorities.
      Why is there bipartisan support for something most Australians didn’t ask for?

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      11:11am | 14/11/11

      Ssshhhh its only muslims that go to other countries and rape people.

    • AdamC says:

      12:47pm | 14/11/11

      It seems a bit much to expect US marines to never commit crimes. Obviously, some US marines stationed in Darwin will committ crimes, just as people in the general population do.

      I could take or leave having US marines stationed in Australia. I suspect governments like the idea so much because it acts as an effective security guarantee if Australia were attacked. (The ANZUS treaty itself does not explicitly oblige the US to declare war against another country that attacks Australia.)

      Ultimately, if you don’t like the idea of Australia relying on the US for its security, then you need to accept that Australia would have to radically increase its defence capacity. In particular, some form of national service would need to be considered, along with a substantial naval expansion.  Many people who oppose the US alliance also oppose these alternative strategies. These people may as well wear a t-shirt saying “I am not to be taken seriously”.

    • Ricky_B says:

      01:29pm | 14/11/11

      Shhhh, Simon of Lakemba, i am going to whisper the words “Skaf Brothers” in your ear(remember them?) Or maybe we will go with “uncovered meat”(ring any bells?).It seems you are right on the money.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      02:16pm | 14/11/11

      Ricky_B

      And yes white ppl never rape girls, sigh..

    • stephen says:

      06:57pm | 14/11/11

      Most Australians do not ask for rape ?
      E gods mean, I think you’re right.
      But after all that, I don’t feel so sorry for whales any more.

    • Anna C says:

      09:15am | 14/11/11

      Obama was seen as the ‘Great Black Hope’. But now he is just the ‘Great Big Disappointment’. It’s not all of it his fault of course because he did inherit two ongoing wars and a GFC.

      Politiicans never seem to live up to the hype surrounding them.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      11:19am | 14/11/11

      I agree- there is a lot of projecting going on when people support politicians (from both sides). Usually people only hear and see what their ideological ear-muffs and goggles will allow through to their preconditioned brains- reality will inevitably disappoint.

    • subotic says:

      02:46pm | 14/11/11

      @Anna C, Obama was seen as the ‘Great Black Hope’, but not by everybody, including many African Americans. My wife is part African American, her father fully African American from Kentucky, and none of them have voted for Democrats. Ever.

      It’s not about race. Or even the war. It’s about fiscally conservative politics and religion. Why neither Cain nor Romney will get in this time around. One can’t play with money and the other is a weirdo religionist. And Perry can’t even remember what he was going to do once he got in, so you can count that shmo out immediately.

      Australian’s really don’t understand the true background of US politics….

    • Grant says:

      09:28am | 14/11/11

      “A US television camera was snuck into Parliament itself, as just one example.”

      And thank goodness for that! Otherwise we wouldn’t have been able to see the footage of Bob Brown heckling President Bush (the angle of the “official” Parliament House camera’s didn’t cover him).

      The irony being Australian television networks had to pick up the footage of the exchange from their American counterparts!

    • Rocksteady says:

      09:57am | 14/11/11

      At least Brown speaks up for what he believes in. America has no interest in protecting Australia, we only matter when we provide something.
      Labor was against going to war but still bent over for Bush in the hopes of earning some political points.

    • youdy beaudy says:

      09:50am | 14/11/11

      Although I am not for the American way and i see in the news that their country is economically damaged probably because of spending too much on weapons and warfare under bush and i see that their world wide sense of imperialism has caused great problems, i also feel that we in Australia need an ally to give us military support if times of trouble come to us. The way of the world these days is that there is no surety of safety for many of us and history may also tell us that we cannot trust everyone.

      So our lovely world could come crashing down, but i hope not. China is powerful and over populated. India the same. North Korea rattle sabres at the rest. There is not much hope of protecting our country if large armies march

      Regardless of what we think, the Americans have been our allies for most of the past century and if it wasn’t for them we may be speaking Japanese today and the other smaller nations around us as well. But we were able to survive because of their support. So to think rationally about it it would seem stupid to kick the Americans to the curb.

      We have to work out what we want. I think our association Militarily wise with the Americans is here to stay for good. If we need defending we will have to turn to someone and who will it be. New Zealand are reducing their Military and becoming non violent which is good. Indonesia have links with us through training, ie training at canungra in qld on occasion, but whether that bond is strong as far as protecting us goes would probably not be.

      New Guinea, well there would be support, but they would be one of the first to be affected. Who will be our friends, who will stand for us if something happened in the future?. Well, obviously, we would have to call on the Americans.

      Although we field a very brave and tactically clever Army, Navy and Air Force we don’t have the numbers in our forces to defend ourselves against countries that can put 2 or 3 million or maybe more men in the field of battle. We would have to conscript again or obtain patriotic volunteers to be able to defend ourselves.

      Would Great Britian stand for us, well maybe, maybe not. They have their problems and are a long way away and under their current financial problems they would not be able to support financially a large army.

      So, regardless of what the viewpoint is we would have to call on the Americans. At least they give a damn and there would have to be something in it for them. Well I think they have some big Military investments here already and i’m sure they would defend them at least.

    • Bazza says:

      09:57am | 14/11/11

      I’m waiting for Michelle to hang a right cross on Julia the next time she slobbers up to him. Looking at Michelle I don’t think Julia should push her luck.

    • RyaN says:

      10:15am | 14/11/11

      Obama: Sit doggie sit.
      Gillard: Woof!
      Obama: Good doggie.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      11:13am | 14/11/11

      We got it the 1st time…

      And Bush/Howard were different how?

    • james says:

      12:19pm | 14/11/11

      Howard was mentioned how many times in Bush book?

      Reveals the truth about the value of the relationship.

    • RyaN says:

      12:31pm | 14/11/11

      @SimonFromLakemba: The first one was censored, then it magically appeared, I thought it had something to do with the butt licking.

      Oh well, I guess the “conga line of suckholes” will follow wink

    • RyaN says:

      12:25pm | 15/11/11

      And then it magically disappeared again!

    • Anjuli says:

      10:18am | 14/11/11

      I rarely agree with anyone from the Greens but I did when Christine Milne on TV last night said, that America is not doing this the Pacific alliance , for Australia but what is in it for them.I hope Bob Brown keeps his mouth shut this time when Barack Obama comes to town.

    • AdamC says:

      11:50am | 14/11/11

      Of course, Anjuli, just as we are in the alliance for our own reasons. Nations have been creating mutually-beneficial arrangements amongst themselves for ages. As Australia and the US have similar political values and strategic objectives, it makes sense for us to co-operate. Of course, Australia will always be the junior partner in these things, but that doesn’t mean they are a bad idea.

    • The Civet says:

      02:53pm | 15/11/11

      Exactly. What another Australian/US free trade agreement? Free trade means America is free to rip off Australia. Which she does so well. Ask the rural brigade if you don’t believe me.

      The insensate grovelling of Australian prime ministers to American presidents is gut- wrenchingly supine, and Julia Howard Gillard should die of shame.

    • RyaN says:

      10:21am | 14/11/11

      Maybe she can invoke another Bono moment like the time she addressed congress. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G60ddiwj88

      Warning: you may need a bag to catch the vomit when you are exposed to the clips of Gillard, just like most other times she appears on TV.

    • PTom says:

      03:49pm | 14/11/11

      So what where you doing during 9/11?
      Be careful using your Bolts logic anything you say would be Bush moment so that would make you plagiarist?

    • RyaN says:

      12:28pm | 15/11/11

      @Comrade PTom: Pardon? What are you actually trying to say, please make sense next time.

    • John the Zombie says:

      10:35am | 14/11/11

      What was it they called Howard when ppl saw him close to Bush and the USA? Wasnt it America’s lapdog and Bush lapdog and yet no one has called Gillard this. For those who say that is different just think of this. Gillard has continued the Liberal policy of troops in Afghanistan and used the line we are supporting our closes partner the USA. Isnt this the same and since it is why is she not also been called Americas lapdog or Obama’s lapdog. Funny this?

      Now I will wait for those to come online and call my comment sexiest yet it was acceptable to call Howard this.

    • I hate pies...and txt language says:

      12:35pm | 14/11/11

      Is it that hard to type “people”? You managed to write many other words…why not people?

    • Kika says:

      01:11pm | 14/11/11

      Me too… it’s eroding the english language through sheer laziness.  In my grandchildren’s generation grammar will resemble

      Hey. FFS WTF is that totes moron dng? LMFAO! Ppl have no I.D.A these days. OMG. Actually, that’s now! :-( Gag me with a spoon!

    • John the zombie says:

      01:57pm | 14/11/11

      Wow the only two replies are from people having a cry about the fact I used ppl instead of people. The truth must hurt.

      I hope you very knowledgeable people do understand that English itself is a bastardised language. The fact that we already shorten words down such as was not is, wasn’t, it is, is it’s and many other words like that. Also the adding on newer words to the language and the ever moving evolution of speech and writing may not be a thought in your mind but I can hazard a guess you are most likely from the group that uses word like OMG and LOL so get of your high horse.

    • I hate pies says:

      07:22pm | 14/11/11

      John, I don’t know what the truth is because I stopped reading when I got to “ppl”. At this point I was able to divulge the intelligence of the author, and determined that reading further would be a waste of my time.
      Yes I know that english is derived from other languages, particulary german. But, it is still a language in its own right; so its origins are irrelevant. The shortening of words you mention below follows accepted literary convention - ppl does not.
      I have never used OMG or LOL in my life, so I’m staying in my saddle.
      I can only assume that you’re generation Y, and don’t actually know how to spell the words you abbreviate…you unfortunate ignoramus.
      Ppl isn’t evolution of the english language; it isn’t even an abbreviation of a word, let alone a word in its own right.

    • A Safe Pair of Hands says:

      10:39am | 14/11/11

      Where exactly is the United States of America on the world map ?
      USA is one of the red coloured countries on the world economy debt map where the countries can be economically either red colour or black colour.!
      Is USA the North America equivalent of economic dead loss European favorites Italy, Eire, Spain, Greece, France, Portugal , and Britain ??.

    • jag says:

      10:41am | 14/11/11

      AH yes, the left was so fond of calling Howard bush’s lap dog so I guess Gillard must be Obama’s bitch?

      I mean, it’s only fair right?

    • Blind Freddy says:

      11:20am | 14/11/11

      Sounds fair to me.

    • RyaN says:

      12:29pm | 15/11/11

      @jag: I wonder if Bob Brown is going to play nice and share his poodle with Obama?

    • Blind Freddy says:

      10:46am | 14/11/11

      I wouldn’t expect anything other than arse-licking from our politicians - the thing that really p!sses me off is the fawning ‘fourth-estate’. The media will treat the occassion with all of the gravitas afforded to other US personalities such as Oprah and Kim Kardashian.

      When here, do the media ever ask these people a hard question? Both our polticians and our media have been duchessed like a bunch of hick-town yokels just happy for the attention.

    • Don D'Cruz says:

      10:55am | 14/11/11

      Malcolm, you seem to be labouring under the illusion that an Education Department actually helps education. You’ve been in the Press Gallery too long.

    • PaxUs says:

      11:11am | 14/11/11

      Hand back your Nobel Obama! You never deserved it and you still don’t!

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      11:11am | 14/11/11

      Here we go again! This time under Ms Gillard!
      Howard & his mob got conned by the USA with their US-Australia Free Trade Agrreement
      An agreement which was all in favour of the USA.
      We, stupidly, opened our doors to the USA. No Limits, No Rrestrictions. It was open slather for the USA.
      The USA, on the other hand, placed all sorts of limitations & bans on Australia exporting to the US. The sycophantic Howard Government went along with this rort by the USA.
      Now we have Gillard going down the same route. Just becasuse Obama is a nice person, good-looking & friendly she goes weak at the knees. She is going, we are told, to allow Amercian Troops to be based in Australia.
      The USA does not allow any foreign troops to be present on Continental US soil.
      Why the hell should we allow their Armed Forces on ours?
      Our most important trading partner, today & for the foreseeable future, is China.
      Gillard, in allowing a US military base to be set up in Darwin is putting our relationaship with China at risk
      The militant USA admits it does not trust China. The USA is scared shitless of China.
      China, also increasingly militant, does not trust the US. With their 2-3 billion population against the US’ 250 millions have no reason to fear the US & the US knows it.
      So what does Gillard do? Instead of keeping Australia out of the petty political squabbles between to US & China, puts us, with our tiny population, right in the middle.
      Just as we have no quarrel with any country, anywhere, we have no quarrel with either China or the USA so why is Gillard deliberately creating a possible problem?
      Obama’s Trans Pacific Pact is a con-job. The USA wants to control everything. It wants all the benefits. It will not lift a single trade barrier & open up the USA to competition but it will expect every one else to do exactly that so that the USA can dump it’s products wherever it wants to.
      Thanks, Barack & Julia, but no thanks.

    • palone says:

      11:25am | 14/11/11

      Where’s Abbott hiding? The most porwerful man in the world comes to town and the Rabbit has scurried. The worst Opposition Leader in Australia’s history will face a barrage of “Liar, Liar ,Liar!” when he returns, (probably through a back door somewhere ), from his little flyaway of lies, (they are already calling it the “Back-flip-trip!). Or perhaps he told the Poms the truth and everything he’s been telling the Abbottites have just been Libs Fibs.
      Head Office in Melbourne will nominate one of Murdoch’s softies to give the Liar of all Liars an easy time, but we won’t forget the Glib Lib’s Fibs.
      He will front the Press though and he will be required to answer the question. “Have you been lying to the Australian Public for two years, (plus, he was howard’s mouthpiece), or did you go overseas and lie to the British public? Now please, no dodging the issue, just a straight, (yes,we know it’s hard for you), answer.
      Exit Abbott. Exit right. Exit far right. Maybe he’ll turn up one day in the dole queue. The far queue!

    • nossy says:

      03:53pm | 14/11/11

      @palone a magnificient piece of “bait” palone but looks like the fish aint bitin - bugger!  hahah well done fella.

    • PaxUs says:

      11:44am | 14/11/11

      We’ve already got Malaysian troops and who knows what other nations troops stationed here.  We could have our own war within UStralia!

    • Richard says:

      11:53am | 14/11/11

      What we all want to know is:
      ‘And it will come in the face of persistent Opposition claims that the Government is driving Australia into dangerous levels of debt.’
      So how does a mini-budget to cut spending equate to driving Australia into debt???

    • PaxUs says:

      04:19pm | 14/11/11

      It’s the nu Labor remember!  Everything they do is a debt!

    • john says:

      11:57am | 14/11/11

      @Robert S McCormick your wrong plain & simple.

      The UK,US,&AU; to use a simile, like the holy trinity of the west. China’s influence in Australia has been since Rudd, weighted too heavily in china’s favour. The balance needs to be restored, the base is largely symbolic & will be a economic boom for Darwin economy to provide the services and supplies to passing ships and supply its bases long term.

      Nothing much will change, china will still do business with us, as we with them. Now we are doing military business with the US, it will cost them to be based here in the billions.

    • Farken says:

      12:40pm | 14/11/11

      all prime ministers of Australia suck up that hard to get the job of PM they just cant stop it, so when they get near power of other County’s they cant help them self

    • FerChrise says:

      01:36pm | 14/11/11

      Lickspittle my arse.

      So they’ll both be a tick more than strictly polite. So fricken what?

      We’re allies, f’Chrissakes. Whatever Party is on the Gov’t benches in either country, this past 60 years and more. 

      We speak more or less the same sort of English.  We trade and we make money and some sort of security, together.  Whatever Party is on the Gov’t benches in either country, this past 60 years and more.

      The only pity is they haven’t both chosen the occasion to announce an end to the Afghan deployment within 90 days. Serious budget savings to be made there, hey.

    • nossy says:

      01:43pm | 14/11/11

      Well fawning over a US Presidential visit is nothing new. Back in 1966 when I was a kid Lyndon Johnson , the President who took over from the assasinated JFK, arrived in Australia to a huge welcome and our PM Harold Holt, who was subsequently accidently drowned off Cheviot Beach in Victoria, coined the phrase “ALL THE WAY WITH LBJ!” - of course the Vietnam war was in full swing and our gallant troops were there fighting and dying. But the Gold Medal goes to the then NSW Premier Bob Askin, who when travelling in the motorcade with Johnson and confronted with anti war protesters blocking the roadway said “RUN OVER THE BASTARDS!” - fortunately no one took a bit of notice of silly old Bob who was flushed and giddy sitting besude the Prez! Ahhh memories - I still have a small US flag from that visit.
      http://wilsonsalmanac.blogspot.com/2005/10/run-run-run-bastards-over.html

    • Gidgee says:

      03:52pm | 14/11/11

      Interesting article by Malcolm Farr, well crafted throughout but as an aged Australian I find it a little galling to have the American President juxtaposed against our Prime Minister as if they are on some sort of similar level.
      The Yank fellow, as an individual, is not only awesomely powerful in matters of legislation, international affairs, domestic situations and fiscal responsibility but, most importantly, he is that land’s huge military machine’s Commander-in-Chief.
      Our Prime Minister doesn’t come within cooee of that sort of authority and it will be somewhat embarrassingly shown when Ms Gillard stands up in the Great Hall in Canberra and proposes a toast to the head of state of the mighty USA and, wait for it, and Mr Obama then struggles to his feet and proposes a reciprocal toast to, ahem, the Queen.
      Because, dear reader, of course you all know that the person who’s, as far as our Constitution goes, the Australian head of state, don’t you?
      ...and, of course you know that in the absence of that distant, unelected religiously and racially appointed monarch of Britain our unelected and very expensive Governor-General acts, in lieu, with all that’s incurred in the title of our Australian military’s Commander-in-Chief.
      Ms Bryce, for the time being, is our Australian army’s C-i-C.
      Just as well Mr Obama is cutting his deferred visit decidedly short, down to just a few hours, otherwise we might, as a nation, as a great nation, start to actually think about how immature and how colonial we of Australia still are.
      Oh, and as an aside, I had, sort of, hoped that Mr Obama might give the withdrawal drum, from Afghanistan, to our slavish House of Reps temporal leadership - but, then again, the old axiom “he who rides the tiger cannot dismount” seems particularly pertinent vis-a-vis Afghanistan and its rugged peoples.
      That puppet fellow, President Karzai would be fully aware that if and when the heavily-armed alien troops depart for home his life will be about as promising as a certain Mr Quisling, or a certain Mr Petain of another day and time.
      How inept, how servile and how pitifully tied to Yankee hegemony are we of this marvellous antipodean place called Australia.
      Gidgee.

    • Fer Chrise says:

      04:30pm | 14/11/11

      Oh stop it or you’ll go blind, fer Chrissakes.  You don’t understand our consitutional democracy, that’s all.

      The GG must take the advice of the Gov’t of the day,  just as HM QEII must, fer Chrissakes.

      In short, the PM and Cabinet decide, and as ExCo present to HE GG, who ratifies. In practice (in every and all normal, rational, circumstances), the GG *must* ratify what the PM proposes. Whichever Party, whichever GG.

      And *we* got *our* Independence without a war, without slavery, without a civil war, and without throwing out hundreds of years of our heritage, custom and law.

      And You? You have no idea of our system, our Consitution, our conventions, customs, traditions, and long heritage.

      Your “Commander in Chief ” posturing is just a lot of wank. Shame on you.

    • John A Neve says:

      05:21pm | 14/11/11

      Fer Chrise,
      Sorry but you are wrong. The GG does not have to take tha advice of the government of the day. Listen to it, yes, take it no, the GG’s decisions should be based on the fact and our constitution, nothing else. For far too long GG’s have acted on precedent and not the written word of our constitution.

      I am not even sure we are a “constitutional democracy”, I’d suggest if any thing, we are Representative Democracy. Sadly of late not very representative.

    • Gidgee says:

      05:49pm | 14/11/11

      Fer Chrise artfully avoids the issue and sweeps the increasingly glaring truth under the carpet - if, as Fer Chrise says, only having figureheads is the way we of Oz are governed then why bother having a Governor -General?
      Why have a distant monarch lawfully and constitutionally cited as our Australian head of state?
      There’s none so blind (talking of going blind) than those who just won’t see.
      Wake up to yourself, Fer Chrise before you make an absolute goat of yourself and your “royal” allegiances: your obvious myopia and one-eyedness should be of some concern to you.
      We should, indeed we must have our own head of state here in Australia; a person who can stand tall on the international stage and, in so doing, enable us of Australia to shake off the ridiculous and anachronistic rot which says we aren’t yet ready to nominate who’s to lead us in peace and in the event of war.
      Well may you, Fer Chrise, smugly say that the GG and/or the Queen of England only acts on the say-so of the parliament but, once again I say to you, if that be the case, why have them at all?
      Why keep such personages in the lap of luxury for no real purpose?
      Over and out.
      Gidgee.

    • Fer chrise says:

      06:09pm | 14/11/11

      Yeah right. Sure.

      Trying to draw a bit of a smoke screen over the artfully misrepresented position and role of the “Commander In Chief”, eh. Yeah yeah. Sure Sure.

      Our PMs run this country, fellers.  End of story.

    • marley says:

      06:37pm | 14/11/11

      @Gidgee:  Well now.  I do understand the Australian Constitution, and also the value of precedent in our legal system.  I’m not sure that you do.

      The GG is our effective head of state;  the PM is the head of government:  Barack Obama covers both positions.  So what? 

      There are many nations that have heads of state who are different from heads of government, and it works just fine in principle and fact.  The Chancellor of Germany is perfectly comfortable not being the head of state. The Prime Minister of India is comfortable not being the head of state.  Berlusconi was (until this week) perfectly happy not being the head of state.  Oddly enough, most countries understand that it is entirely possible to have a head of government who is not the head of state.

      And in the event that Australia chooses to dump the monarchy, I suspect the head of government will continue to be a different individual than the head of state.  And he will not stand any taller than the GG does now, because power resides and will always reside with the PM, not the head of state.

      The Americans happen to have chosen to have a head of state who is also head of government, but that’s not the common pattern, nor has it proven to be more effective than splitting the two roles.

      As to why we need a separate head of state - well, frankly, because I don’t see much evidence that combining the functions works all that well.  A constitutional check on the power of the PM is a good thing, don’t you think?  That’s the role of the GG/head of state in westminster-style democracies (or in German or Italian republics or Swedish or Dutch monarchies).

    • youdy beaudy says:

      04:14pm | 14/11/11

      Look guys, i wrote before and reiterate. We are always going to be aligned with the US. They are not our enemies. We have never and will never war against them. Americans have been in Australia before federation, eg, the gold rushes. They are our friends in a increasingly unfriendly world. It’s good to have friends in times of crisis.

      Please, everyone repeat 100 times, you know, like we did in school. The Americans are our friends, The Americans are our friends. President Obama is a friendly person, i like him. There we go. Are we feeling better now. God it’s hard. We may not like their policies but it’s about business. Their business interests as a nation and our business interests as a nation. The past has finished. We can’t undo the terrible things of the past but we can learn from the past in order to make the now and the future better. It’s about survival at the end of the day, isn’t it?.

    • Wil says:

      10:44am | 17/11/11

      “The Friend of My Enemy Is My Enemy”, Australia doesn’t need the extra baggage when it clearly doesn’t need it.

    • Prof Langford B White says:

      04:39pm | 14/11/11

      Shouldn’t it be “a conga line of lick-spittles” ?

    • youdy beaudy says:

      06:58pm | 14/11/11

      Hey Professor langford B White, well. that’s a bit unfair. We don’t need to lick spittle but we have to be practical don’t we?. We only have our freedoms because we somehow won the wars. Probably our good luck because it could have been the other way and then it would be a different story.

      People go on about Julia etc,etc, but i don’t agree that we lick and spittle and really people will only be able to gauge Julias performance on what follows her. That’s what i think. See what we replace her with then make a comment on her performance. It may well be better the devil we know!!.

    • John A Neve says:

      04:56pm | 14/11/11

      Youdy Beaudy,
      Talks rubbish, ” We ahve never and will never war against them (America)”.
      “Americans have been in Australia before federation e.g. the gold rushes”.
      So have the Chinese.

      But I agree we should all love America, the land of candy,nylon stockings, Texas where every thing is BIG and their mums make better apple pie than our mums.

    • sven svensenburger says:

      05:37pm | 14/11/11

      @ John A Neve, Well, im goin to tell ya right now, ol youdy is a pretty good bloke, a real ozzie so to speak. He is my friend and lives here where i am livin. Just using the old orstalian vernacular there John.

      Now, sometimes he gets a bit brash on here and is abused by some and called names but he is very resilient and can keep the ol chin up, yer know. But as his friend i and sticking up for him on ere. You say in your first sentence that he talks rubbish, well sometimes he does and i agree with you there. Sometimes he’s a pain in the old rumburtha. But at least you agree in one part there.

      So may the God bless you ol John A Neve and may your family be blessed with a thousand camels tomorrow morning and may you have a rather large back yard in which to ensconce them. May your wife be good looking forever and never grow a beard as some do. May the God bless you all, i say. May your troubles be small and may you learn to speak chinese, who, by the way were here before everybody, just in case they turn up and you can communicate on our behalf. And yes, God bless America a land of big ideas, big wars and big debt, and big guns and rockets that may save us all in the future.!!

    • stephen says:

      08:03pm | 14/11/11

      About the time the Iraqi war was on, I remember reading that some WA police were cautioned for abusing, (verbally, maybe) some americans on the streets because of Bush’s impetus, and I was sincerely shocked.
      I thought, did the police confuse them for maybe iranians, or maybe the police were pakistani/australians ?
      No, they were freckled and reckless, (that’s Aussie !)
      And I wondered why public servants in this country and indeed anyone who speaks english with a bit of slang and twang, and wears jeans - and I know the history of denim real well, so don’t try me - would be so suspicious of Americans.
      I do not understand it.
      But I can believe it.

      When I was little, I loved america, (I’m 54, so I looked at TV, therefore e, er capital E lvis was on, plus everyone else, (get it ?) and I felt underwhelmed by my own culture and tried to make up with our natural world : ‘we have the most nastiest spiders, the most nastiest white sharks, the most nastiest crocs, (alligators aren’t most enough) the most waves and the mostest slippery-dips, (just south of the rancho motel, miami beach, circa 1966.)

      Every good aussie, my age, relates his/her well-being to the american.
      We are the same people. We love the same things.
      We are the same.

      It’s not important that they do not think of us identically.
      They have reached their nadir, and I think that they are here, in Darwin, because they believe that we haven’t reached ours.

    • wearestardust says:

      08:23pm | 14/11/11

      On a side note, it is so utterly, utterly, depressing that comments on any article about politics (i) go almost instantly (in the second post, in this thread) to Gillard’s putative political illegitimacy, and (ii) it is assumed that anyone churlish enough to point out that the present government was in fact formed according to Hoyle, or indeed anyone who expresses a view other than that Gillard should be strung up, is assumed to want Gillard to have their babies.

      Sigh.  As a political community we seem to be involved in a determined, hard-headed drive to replace thinking with wishes.

    • burp says:

      09:57pm | 14/11/11

      The solution is obvious: We should go to war with the USA. LOL.

    • TheRaptured says:

      01:07pm | 15/11/11

      Barry Soetoro coming to Australia or the phoney president who is owned by george soros and the criminal wall street banking cartel? No. I think the antichrist is coming to darwin!

    • youdy beaudy says:

      06:20pm | 15/11/11

      Well, a good venting of spleen there everybody. Well i don’t worry about all of this President Obama visiting business. I am just sitting at home enjoying the evening and watching the magpies settle for the night. Now, when the magpies get worried then i will surely worry.

      I like President Obama but his visit will make no difference to my life at all. So i wish him well and i hope he has a good visit in OZ. And i hope all the believers and protagonists have a nice day. Hey, listen to that magpie singing, now that’s the true australia surely. What a wonderful song they have for us. We have 40 coming to visit each day. God they can eat tho.!!

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Daniel Piotrowski

@ToryShepherd there's always time for Din Tai Fung.

ToryShepherd

@drpiotrowski will be there just in time for Din Tai Fung

Daniel Piotrowski

@ToryShepherd I hope that's in your piece tomorrow. Also - are you coming over this week or laaaaaater?

ToryShepherd

@drpiotrowski yes, Snowtown Abbey should be given an entirely segregated feed...

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Deep down we’re all unionists, even the haters

Deep down we’re all unionists, even the haters

Bill Kelty made a memorable speech last week. Addressing the ACTU Congress Dinner in Sydney, the legendary…

Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia…

Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia…

Speaking of yourself in the third person is usually a sign that you’re suffering from delusions…

South Australia. It’s the middle bottom bit.

South Australia. It’s the middle bottom bit.

If South Australia had just arrived in the world, red and wrinkled and mewling, what would we call it?…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

241 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter