Same-sex parents are no different than other parents in wanting the very best for their children.

We're here, we're queer, our kids shouldn't live in fear

We know that removing legislative inequality is a very significant step in lessening the discrimination and social exclusion experienced by these parents and their children. All children, irrespective of the family units into which they are born or live, deserve the full protection of the law.

That’s why I’m proud to have chaired a year-long Social Development Committee Inquiry into same sex parenting for the South Australian Parliament, and why I’m prouder still of the wide-ranging reforms aimed at providing greater legal protection for children of same-sex parents recommended to Parliament yesterday.

The eight member multi-party Committee heard repeatedly that South Australia lags behind every other Australian state when it comes to protecting the rights of children born to same-sex parents.

Current South Australian law puts children born to same-sex parents in an unequal and unsatisfactory position when compared to children born to heterosexual parents.

This is an unacceptable situation that must be changed.

For those who may continue to argue that the current state of play is perfectly fine and requires no change, I pose the following questions:

• Is it fair for the law to deny a child the right to have their non-birth mother listed on their birth certificate when the law already recognises that biology is not a prerequisite for legal parenthood? 

• Is it right that a child who is cared for and loved by two women in a committed long-term relationship is at risk of being taken away should the birth mother die?

• Is it right to deny a child their lived experience; deny them their truth; pretend that they do not have two parents who care for them and love them; pretend that they do not have two sets of extended families that have embraced them as an important and central part of their families?

• Is it right that same-sex couples can foster care some of the most vulnerable children in our community but are denied an opportunity to adopt?

Fundamentally, no child should be disadvantaged or discriminated against in any way because of how they were conceived.

The Committee heard no compelling evidence that children are disadvantaged by being raised by same-sex parents or that same-sex parents are unfit to look after children. On the contrary, evidence presented by same-sex parents suggests they strive for their children to be well-adjusted, productive members of our community.

The Committee has formed the view that how well children develop is largely influenced by the level of cohesion within a family and the support and care children receive rather than the particular formation that a family unit takes.

In addition, the Committee heard that there is no basis in any of the credible, peer-reviewed research to support the claim that same-sex parents are more likely than heterosexual parents to raise lesbian or gay children. Such claims were repeatedly put by those opposing same-sex parents. Their prevailing mantra: “homosexual parents will raise homosexual children”.

Of course, the underlying assumption of such concerns is that it is somehow wrong for a child to grow up gay or lesbian. It goes without saying that many of us find such views not only hurtful but also deeply offensive, and of course, quite without any basis in fact.

It saddens me greatly that successive governments have lacked the will to respond to this issue.

Discriminatory laws that serve only to disadvantage and further marginalise children born of same-sex relationships have no place in a caring and tolerant community.

The Committee recognises that removing legislative inequality against same-sex led families will not necessarily end the disapproval shown by some sections of the community towards these families. However, it will be a very significant and important step in lessening the discrimination and social exclusion experienced by these parents and their children.

203 comments

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    • Vidmar says:

      07:14am | 18/05/11

      “non-birth mother”
      An oxymoron, perhaps? I get what you’re saying here but there’s no such thing as a non-birth mother… You’re either someone’s mother or you’re not. It’s like being “a bit” pregnant.

    • Claire says:

      08:25am | 18/05/11

      What about adoptive mothers? Are they not mothers to their children?

      Mothering (and fathering) is not just about creating out of one’s DNA. It’s the same thing as ‘parenting’.

    • Helen says:

      09:09am | 18/05/11

      As the child of a completely awesome adoptive mother, I find this comment hurtful, stupid and a deep insult to her. A mother is one who mothers.

    • Linda says:

      12:16pm | 18/05/11

      Well as someone who has been a “bit pregnant” on numerous occasions (ask my obstetrician), and as the partner of a non birth mother I can refute your argument on both counts.

    • fairsfair says:

      09:03pm | 18/05/11

      how can you be a bit pregnant? A blighted ovum?

      yes you are pregnant, but not with a baby.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      11:30pm | 18/05/11

      Birthing a child doesn’t give you ownership, some kids & their birth parents should be separated. Have you ever seen a drug addicts kid when they are born? ? Not pretty. gestation doesn’t make you a parent. Vidmar, how many kids do you actually know? ? Not many I bet

    • Linda says:

      02:14pm | 09/06/11

      @fairsfair.  Your comment is anything but fair.  Who are you to dismiss my repeated miscarriages as not losing my babies?

    • David says:

      01:21pm | 01/08/11

      @Robert Smissen

      As a guy who grew up in rural SA, your declaration of it being “God’s own country” is offensive to me.

    • Ted says:

      07:22am | 18/05/11

      Allowing single women or Lesbians to have children is nothing more than child abuse. Even a Neanderthal can figure out that the only possible way for a child to have a balanced perspective on male/female relationships requires them to have and live with a FATHER and a mother. I have seen examples of so-called men raised by lesbians and by their behaviour and thought processes, the only difference between them and a female is the anatomy!

      This is nothing more than female greed and self-centeredness. It is also amusing that lesbians want children which IS NOT BIOLOGICALLY NATURAL to their chosen lifestyle. Why should my tax dollars go to support child abuse and someone elses lifestyle choice.

    • Helen says:

      09:11am | 18/05/11

      Do you have the peer-reviewed studies showing that kids whose dads died or left in their early years didn’t grow up normally?

    • Helen says:

      09:12am | 18/05/11

      ...I asked the Neanderthal, but he only grunted, and went on reading the Andrew Blot column.

    • Jemima says:

      10:05am | 18/05/11

      “... the only possible way for a child to have a balanced perspective on male/female relationships requires them to have and live with a FATHER and a mother.”
      So Ted you’re saying all the children of single parents should be forcibly removed from their care and fostered to a mother/father run household to ensure the grow up with a ‘balanced perspective’?

      Also, in reference to it not being biologically natural for two women to have children, I assume you’re also against IVF, as biology has dictated thst infertile men and women should not reproduce?

      Who’s a Neanderthal? You are..

    • Skins says:

      11:43am | 18/05/11

      I honestly love people like you.

      I was raised in your typical nucler family until the age of 13 when my mother finally wised up to what a emotionally abusive person that my father was. Best decision she ever made was to leave his drunk ass.

      If two people are going to love and care for a child society have no right to say they are not fit parents. I have two beautiful little god daughters who happen to have two mums. I have never seen a family as happy as theirs and that is all that matters.

    • Matt says:

      12:50pm | 18/05/11

      Hey moron - take a look at the divorce rate these days!  What do you propose to do with all the single mothers and their children - kill them?!  And what about the single fathers - I suppose that’s alright with you…

    • Justin says:

      01:05pm | 18/05/11

      Chosen lifestyle you say? You walk down the street, see an alright looking bloke and think, yeah, I could see myself with a bloke like that? No? Oh, neither do I? Do you choose who or what you find attractive do you? No you don’t. The lifestyle choice fallacy makes my blood boil.

      In my eyes, many of the people on the lifestyle choice bandwagon are embarassed and ashamed of their own sexuality in that they DO find members of the same sex attractive, so lash out at others to mask that shame. It’s the only way I can fathom anybody would see it as a choice.

    • Shane says:

      01:21pm | 18/05/11

      Since you’re so obviously a fan of throwing around generalisations, by your own logic you should ACTUALLY be saying that every male child raised by lesbians should be among the most manly men in the world.

      If you know of any lesbians with a teenage son (which I assume you don’t cause you sound very educated and well researched on the subject), would you please let me know cause I need some work done on my house and he’d be good with a hammer presumably.

      In case anyone’s not picking this up and is about to be outraged - I’m being sarcastic toward Ted.

    • RyaN says:

      01:41pm | 18/05/11

      @Skins: “If two people are going to love and care for a child society have no right to say they are not fit parents. ” newsflash, like it or not this is the reality of modern day Australia. Society can and do have the right to say who are not fit parents and decide what is “right” for the children. Have you ever heard of DOCS?

    • Skins says:

      02:43pm | 18/05/11

      @ Ryan

      If you read my comment correctly you would see that it actually says love and CARE. DOCS are responsible for looking after children who are neglected, abused ect. so they are obviously not cared for in the correct way. Just because a child is being raised by a same sex couple does not mean that they are unfit to be parents.

    • RyaN says:

      03:44pm | 18/05/11

      @Skins: regardless of whether you love and care for the child, this government department has the right to say who are not fit parents. This is reality, hate to break it to you.

    • AliceC says:

      04:13pm | 18/05/11

      @Ryan

      ‘@Skins: regardless of whether you love and care for the child, this government department has the right to say who are not fit parents. This is reality, hate to break it to you.’

      That right, and once the govt decide that homosexual couples are fit parents (and they will one day), then all will be well in your mind.

    • Skins says:

      04:26pm | 18/05/11

      @ Ryan

      But they can not say that just because you are in a same sex couple that you are an unfit parent. That is taking away basic human rights. Like I said, unless the child shows evidence of abuse or neglect they, by law, can not remove a child from a household just because they do not like the fact that little bobbie has two mum/dads.

      http://www.community.nsw.gov.au/preventing_child_abuse_and_neglect/what_is_child_abuse.html
      If you look at the above link you will see that no where in that list does it include same sex partnerships as a reason to remove a child.

    • SydSteve says:

      04:30pm | 18/05/11

      @ Ryan. DOCS work with kids who are being sexually and physically abused. Kids that don’t have food because of drug problems. Also they have programs that help parents who DO love and care for their kids but are struggling to get money together are or having issues with drugs. Taking kids away from genuinely caring parents rarely happenss.
      You Sir are a fool.

    • Skins says:

      04:32pm | 18/05/11

      As far as I’m aware DOCS doesnt go round every household who has a child and check that they are fit parents. A couple needs to be reported.

      I would love to see you ring up DOCS and say you are reporting a same sex couple only because they were the same sex.  I’m pretty sure they would laugh and tell you that it is not a case of abuse or any of the other things that are listed on the DOCS website.

    • Luce says:

      05:21pm | 18/05/11

      Ryan, you’re correct that DOCS have the right to say who are and aren’t fit parents. The issue is there is little, if any, evidence to suggest that a homosexual couple who will love and care for their child are unfit parents.
      In fact, with the divorce rate as it is, and the difficulty homosexual parents go through in order to become parents, many would say they’re better parents than the majority of straight couples out there.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      11:34pm | 18/05/11

      Ted, is your surname Tosser. My oldest kids grew up with me after their violent mother left, all 3 are well ajusted & working, my daughter works with abused kids & abuse come from ALL types. My 15 hasn’t lived with his mother since he was 2, are you saying there’s no hope for him

    • Bev says:

      12:18am | 19/05/11

      Helen says:09:12am | 18/05/11

      ...I asked the Neanderthal, but he only grunted, and went on reading the Andrew Blot column.

      There was some cross breeding between Neanderthals and humans. Apparently red headed people are likely to a Neanderthal gene.  Makes you wonder about a certain red headed poly in Canberra.

    • RyaN says:

      11:10am | 19/05/11

      @Skins: “That is taking away basic human rights. ” whose human rights, yours? What about the human right of the child to have a loving Mother and Father in a nuclear family that doesn’t have to deal with the psychological implications of degenerate deviancy?

    • Gregg says:

      07:32am | 18/05/11

      I suppose Ian, there’s emotive reasoning as well as legalities and I would hope that you are not saying that sam sex couples should be entitled to different treatment than opposite sex couples when it comes to the legal position of children.

      For instance, with
      ” • Is it fair for the law to deny a child the right to have their non-birth mother listed on their birth certificate when the law already recognises that biology is not a prerequisite for legal parenthood? “
      Can a non biological male be listed on a birth certificate or is it a matter for such a male to legally go through the adoption process?
      And with
      ” • Is it right that a child who is cared for and loved by two women in a committed long-term relationship is at risk of being taken away should the birth mother die? “
      And what if there is the male parent who still has an interest in caring for the child, even sharing custody, or for instance a mother has entered into a relationship with another male, the mother dies and would you say the birth father has no right over the other male the mother took up with?

      Yes, the law can be a beast at times but heaven help us if we allow wmotions to become the basis for laws.

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:27am | 18/05/11

      Perfectly said Gregg you hit it right on the head. No mention of the rights of the father in this instance. Typically biased woman centred sentiment and compete tripe.

      In fact this whole story has nothing to do with the rights of the child but everything to do with pushing the homosexual agenda by progressive jounalists.

      What about the rights of the child to know its birth father? Should this be glossed over as meaningless irrelevance? However you wish to scream and shout about it you are passing into legislation child disadvantage.

      And before the typical idiots start banging on about the number of children raised in single parent homes this is the result of the failings of individual people not legislative enforcement!   

      However you put it there will be children who will feel cheated by a system that encourages this degeneracy as there are children now who feel cheated by the selfish indulgent behaviour of their parents who failed to privide the best and most natural relationship model nature intended - that of a mother and father together!

      All else is subterfuge!

    • Chip n Chase says:

      11:09am | 18/05/11

      That’s right fellas, and they wonder why the Muslims want Sharia Law in Australia! Take one look at all this new progressive legislation and obviously most people are going to want something more meaningful - a modified Sharia just might be the ticket. The Muslims seem to be the only ones who care about community anymore and are willing to stand up. They build strong united communities based on traditional family roles while westerners make a joke of anything resembling tradition, atleast those at the commanding heights of western civilisation do. Their birthrate is massive while westerners, if current trends continue, will eventually disappear.

    • Markus says:

      11:40am | 18/05/11

      “They build strong united communities based on traditional family roles” Please feel free to name a single strong united country based on Sharia Law…

    • C N C says:

      01:39pm | 18/05/11

      No Nation is united anymore, but some communities within countries are doing a lot better than others and based on birthrates they’re almost all Muslim which tells us they’re doing something very right.
      Demographics is destiny, and unless westerners can boost their birthrate (which is only possible with a return to traditional family roles) they simply will not have a say in the future - but still it’s a long way off I suppose so not for us to worry about, but interesting nonetheless.

    • Markus says:

      02:06pm | 18/05/11

      So we’ve established that Muslims are great at breeding.
      Still waiting on examples of ‘strong’ and ‘united’ communities.

    • Another Chris says:

      05:24pm | 18/05/11

      Gregg & Paul Horn….spot on.

      Meanwhile, the “progressive” journalists push the pro gay parenting agenda.

    • TChong says:

      08:08am | 18/05/11

      Kids with two mums are weet bix kids, the same as a kid with two dads are also a weet bix kid.
      “Is it right that a child who is cared for and loved by two women in a commited and long term relationship….,” - of couse not, just the same as it would be unfair to two men in a similar relationship.
      The headline ‘Kids with two mums…” and point 2 ,- “Is it right…,” would indicate that there are many who still equate gay males as being unacceptable to raise kids.

    • Claire says:

      08:28am | 18/05/11

      Agreed. The title needs to be changed.

    • Alice says:

      09:22am | 18/05/11

      Your right that man are just as capable and should be considered, BUT same sex couples raising children is still a form of child abuse.

    • Ghost says:

      09:34am | 18/05/11

      You can’t say two men could do the job adequately.  That goes against The Punches anti-male agenda.

    • Skins says:

      11:51am | 18/05/11

      It is much easier for homosexual females to have a child then what it is for males. While I think it is unfair for the story to only speak of females it is much easier for them to produce the child in the first place.

      The law needs to catch up to allow men to adopt children and have all the legal rights that a birth mother would have. I’m sure we will get there one day..

    • Jenny says:

      03:36pm | 18/05/11

      No Skins, the law does not need to “catch up”. The law needs to ban the government assisting single people or same sex couples from using IVF or adopting. The law is meant to stop the rot not speed it up.

    • Matthew says:

      05:05pm | 18/05/11

      Jenny, the government should stop parents with 3-4 kids already using IVF too.

      If you can’t have kids, you get 3 IVF eggs each cycle until you have a child or two.  Have one child and you’re all another 2 IVF eggs/cycle to try for another child.  Have 2 children then you’re not entitled to anymore.  If you get twins after you’ve had one or triplets the first time then consider yourself extremely lucky.

      IVF should be for those that don’t have kids, are in a couple and can’t have kids, not for whoever (even if you pay).  Make it almost impossible to have kids via IVF and only when it’s an absolute last resort.

      We have enough starving and orphaned children in the world, why manufacture more against nature’s wishes.

    • KH says:

      08:09am | 18/05/11

      Not only is the impression that it is somehow ‘wrong’ to grow up gay, but that it is somehow ‘learned’ behaviour.  Rubbish - if that were true, then logically there would be almost no gay people at all, since most of them grow up in hetereosexual families…...........

    • Claire says:

      08:27am | 18/05/11

      Agreed.

      ‘Their prevailing mantra: “homosexual parents will raise homosexual children”.’

      What if they do raise homosexual children? Is homosexuality something that needs to be bred out?

    • Tim says:

      09:51am | 18/05/11

      Claire,
      surely even most gay people would agree that being gay is not an ideal life situation.

    • Ray says:

      10:25am | 18/05/11

      Clare, you are on the right track now.

    • Jane says:

      11:00am | 18/05/11

      @ Claire - spot on. I grew up gay but my parents are straight

      @ Tim - I wouldn’t change a thing about me being gay. And do you have any figures to support you proposition?

    • Paul Horn says:

      11:12am | 18/05/11

      Claire it would be like trying to breed cancer out. Not possible as it is a disease no matter how you look at it!

      Despite the fact that the media pushes this barrow again and again (mainly because of the extremely high percentage of those that work within the industry being avid adherents of this practice) should children be directly exposed to this type of relationship structure as normal? Shoud they be encouraged to actively consider this lifestyle as a
      “natural” alternative?

      I know numbers of people who have adopted the homosexual lifestyle not because they are intrinsically homosexaul but because certain lifestyle opportunities presented themselves that they would never have enjoyed had they remained heterosexual!
         
      As we know feminist philosophy is openly hostile towards heterosexuality and actively promotes lesbianism within its ranks.

      Many prominent feminists have “chosen” the homosexual lifestyle not becauae they are homosexual but because it resonates strongly with their sick beliefs and anti male agenda.

    • Mitchell says:

      09:31pm | 20/05/11

      Paul Horn - make up your mind! Disease or lifestyle choice? I hope for all our sake’s, your ignorance is not contageous. Science help us all if it is.
      And what, pray tell, are the lifestyle choices afforded you should you choose homosexuality? I think you should tell us all - that way all of us who are choosing to be straight (which you’ve done, obviously) can have all the facts. Who knows, you might entice a wave of people changing teams!!

    • Ray says:

      08:24am | 18/05/11

      Ian, as you said the children should be protected by the law. Ban these carpet lickers from having children.

      Really, this is the same as boat people where we bend over backwards to accommodate people against our natural instincts in a mind of politically correct appeasement.

    • RGG says:

      09:08am | 18/05/11

      This is hilarious because you’re a dinosaur and history will spit on your memory just as it does on the slave traders. Enjoy your irrelevency, bigot.

    • mid says:

      09:34am | 18/05/11

      Ooooookaaaaayyyy

      First thing, how on earth did that get past the moderators.

      And second thing…. Troll

    • Ray says:

      10:37am | 18/05/11

      for RGG and mid says.

      Hey, Get real fired up RGG. Emaill me the explanation of your comment. Is dinosaur the new buzz word when you’ve got nothing to say. Anyhow for your own safety please sit down until the feeling passes.

      for mid says: you do not realise how cut I am over your incisive comment. The depth of expresion and cogency is withering. Secondly the editor appreciates the quality of my response. The dinosaurs and neanderthals just have to catch up as their always behind. Poor choice of terminology I know. Must go that’s the carpet cleaner.

    • Lloyd says:

      10:45am | 18/05/11

      Ray, just go away.Far, far away.

    • Lord Thistlewist says:

      01:32pm | 18/05/11

      First of all, I do not think the debate is helped by the unhelpful comments of RGG and mid. You should be playing the ball, not the man.

      Second. Ray, if you talked to any gay man or lesbian, the first thing they would tell you is that their sexuality is their ‘natural instinct’. I do not see how being raised by two women is harmful to a child. So long as the child is loved, the gender/sexuality of the parents is irrelevant.

      Thirdly. If two lesbians decide to have a family, I do not see how this in any way affects anyone else. It is, in essence, a private decision. Even if you do not think that gay people should raise children, why should you have a say in what two consenting adults decide to do.

      As a Liberal voter, I am similarly irritated by political correctness, but political correctness has nothing to do with this issue.

    • Ray says:

      02:14pm | 18/05/11

      To Oh Lordy’ Lordy, it does affect someone else - the child.

    • Fiona says:

      05:36pm | 18/05/11

      Ray, may I ask how you believe your ancestors arrived in this country?? By any chance was it as a convict on a BOAT??

      We’re all boat people you fool and unless you’ve never pleasured your long suffering wife, one can only assume you’ve licked carpet before too.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      11:40pm | 18/05/11

      Mid my guess is the moderators want us to see what trolls are out there in the voting public. Scary thought is that they live amongst us & are compelled to vote

    • Holbeck Gyhll says:

      08:26am | 18/05/11

      Same sex parenting is so obviously wrong on so many levels. It strikes me as form of child abuse all to satisfy the selfish desire of adults. I certainly wouldn’t wish it on some poor child who has no say in the matter.

      That society panders to these notions just indicates the that western civilization is truly on the decline.

    • mid says:

      09:37am | 18/05/11

      “western civilization” - hmm, I’m guessing that you’re not familiar with the sources of most of what we would call “western civilization” but I would assume you would include the Greeks in that one?

      Why don’t you run along and do some research on their thoughts on homosexuality?

      Oh, and - Troll

    • Two Mummies says:

      09:42am | 18/05/11

      I really hope you don’t have children because if you do I would feel morally obliged to put in a mandatory notification on you. The real child abuse is perpetrated by the state which refuses to afford the same legal rights to children born into straight families.

    • Ray says:

      10:42am | 18/05/11

      Mid says There’s that troll again - ‘Troll’.

      Why would anyone wish to research homosexuality.

    • Ray says:

      10:49am | 18/05/11

      Two Mummies. What esoteric crap.Why does another human have to suffer two mummies with bent ideology. Go on tell me it’s normal. We have to these days.

      The curse of ‘discrimination’ applied unilaterally across our society which all minorities use as a default, will eventually bring us (civilisation) down. Bit of Rome burns as we fiddle.

    • Two Mummies says:

      12:19pm | 18/05/11

      You are right Mid…definately a Troll and an ungly one at that!

    • Matt says:

      12:55pm | 18/05/11

      And yet it’s probably ok for you to have children and breed your poison and hate into them - that’s the sad thing about this situation.  People that make great parents and teach love and acceptance are harassed by idiots like you, yet no one cares if you breed horrible little monsters that will grow up with your tainted view on humanity.  You suck Holbeck Gyhll - if that is your real name.  You’re nothing but a bigoted fuckwit.

    • Sandra says:

      09:18am | 18/05/11

      “Is it fair for the law to deny a child the right to have their non-birth mother listed on their birth certificate when the law already recognises that biology is not a prerequisite for legal parenthood?”

      - Yes. One lists the biological entities that combined to create the child the other is a legal defintion of parenthood. Completely different topics.

    • Gillian says:

      01:26pm | 18/05/11

      Not necessarily. My husband and I are about to embark upon a process of artificial insemination using donor sperm. By law, the birth certificate will say that the child’s father is my husband, NOT the donor/biological father.

      In this way the law already recognises that being a mother/father is not just about biology.

    • Eddie says:

      01:29pm | 18/05/11

      @ Sandra.
      I agree, pretty simple logic.

    • Sandra says:

      02:12pm | 18/05/11

      Gillian - that is cool to hear that your hubby is going to be listed as the father on the birth certificate. I actually expected someone to say “what if the mother lies about the identity of the father?”.  Good luck with your child.

    • Paul Horn says:

      05:49pm | 18/05/11

      And tell me Sandra will you tell your child that his “father”
      is not his biological father when he is old enough to understand? 

      What about when your child expresses an interest in knowing who his biological father is? Many children born this way have a great desire to find their biological parent and that is their right.

      Even though I accept your intentions are good a bloke that can squirt in a jar and walk away knowing that somewhere out there his offspring is running around really warps my mind. What a selfish bastard that man must be!

    • Mitchell says:

      08:53pm | 20/05/11

      Missing the point much, Paul Horn? In Australia, there is no such thing as anonymous donation - doners are kept on a register so that should a child born from sperm donation wish to touch base with their biological father, they can. It’s not a matter of ‘squirting in a jar’. It is also important to ackowledge that waiting lists for ‘anonymous’ doners sit at about 18 months MINIMUM, which is why many people (my wife and I included) call upon a family member or, in our case, a trusted friend. Our kids will be informed of their biological origins early, because it is nothing to be ashamed of, to hide, or to ignore. The only thing warped about the situation is they may have to deal with someone who shares your opinions one day. Your kind of intolerance and ignorance is selfish, NOT someone committing to helping out other people who, for whatever reason, cannot have chidren that are biologically their own.

    • David says:

      09:23am | 18/05/11

      Individuals who justify vilification of same-sex parenting as unnatural tend to ignore many other cases were parents may be in a similar position, for example;

      A hetrosexual couple where a parent is infertile would still be allowed to adopt children despite inability to naturally concieve children.

      Hetrosexual parents who resides seperately thus the child will have contact with only one gender.

      The underlying factor is homosexuallity is still percieved as a vice by a large proportion of society.  Thus, the arguments against same sex parenting are generally discriminatory which tend to ignore cotemporary examples based on logic.

    • Tim says:

      09:57am | 18/05/11

      “A hetrosexual couple where a parent is infertile would still be allowed to adopt children despite inability to naturally concieve children.”

      Are you comparing homosexuality to a genetic problem or a disease? They are not the same.

      “Hetrosexual parents who resides seperately thus the child will have contact with only one gender. “

      Yes, this is a non-ideal situation. Why would you want to force children into a non-ideal situation?

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:42am | 18/05/11

      How foolish! Let me rend your argument limb from limb!

      For starters adoption is the result of personal circumstance. Either the parents are deceased or they abandon the chid for various reasons. In that case there is no option unless you leave the child to fend for him or herself.

      The same goes for heterosexual parents that live separately. This is a personal and private choice which causes countless suffering for millions of children who are defenceless in such matters.

      What we are talking about is bringing about child disadvantage through legislation, that is making it legally enforceable to suit the selfish indulgences of adult choice. Sick and perverted to the extreme.

      If children suffer due to the separation of their parents how the hell can you bang on about this choice being in the best interests of the child? 

      I await you answer!!!

    • Slothy says:

      10:58am | 18/05/11

      “What we are talking about is bringing about child disadvantage through legislation, that is making it legally enforceable to suit the selfish indulgences of adult choice. Sick and perverted to the extreme. “

      Except that the article clearly states that the Committee found that children were not disadvantaged by being brought up in same-sex marriages and that changing the legislation would actually improve their lives.

    • David says:

      12:11pm | 18/05/11

      @Tim & Paul Horn:

      How is placing a child in the care of two people willing to care, provide and love for the child not the ideal situation for a child?

      Your argument is flawed as the underlying assumption is that homosexuallity somehow removes the ability to be loving and compassionate. Gender is irrelevant in the ability to be good parents. If gender, or combination thereof, was a determing factor in parenting ability, as your argument asserts, all children raised by hetrosexual couples would have no social, physical or emotional problems. As this is clearly not the case your argument appears to be based on prejudice rather than logic.

      I would be interested in hearing a logical argument rather than your prejudice.

    • Fred says:

      12:21pm | 18/05/11

      “Committee found that children were not disadvantaged by being brought up in same-sex marriages “
      Slothy, its amazing what lies, sorry outcomes when an interest group committee investigate something.

    • Slothy says:

      12:46pm | 18/05/11

      You realise, I assume, that this was a South Australian Parliamentary committee made up of South Australian MPs?  If you want to do your own analysis of their report and their assessment of the submissions received, go nuts, but give us a little something to back up your statements.

    • Coop says:

      04:24pm | 18/05/11

      Exactly Fred…. Especially when they reach the conclusion through an absence of evidence

    • Slothy says:

      09:35am | 18/05/11

      I love how many people are ignoring the conclusion of ‘year-long Social Development Committee Inquiry’ that they ‘heard no compelling evidence that children are disadvantaged by being raised by same-sex parents or that same-sex parents are unfit to look after children’ in favour of their own predjudiced cries of ‘child abuse’ and ‘against the natural order’.

      Way to come up with an elegant and persuasive reply to the article, guys. Good work.

    • Tim says:

      09:58am | 18/05/11

      Can you post a link?

    • Slothy says:

      10:25am | 18/05/11

      I can’t link directly to the report, but if you go here: http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Committees/Pages/Committees.aspx?CTId=5&CId=182#, then at the bottom of the page click on ‘Documents’ then ‘Completed Inquiries’, you’ll find a copy of the full 124 page report titled ‘32nd Report Inquiry into Same-Sex Parenting’.

      I quote from the conclusion:
      “The Committee heard no persuasive evidence that children are disadvantaged by being raised by same-sex parents. Nor did it receive any compelling evidence that same-sex parents are unfit to care for children. It did, however, hear ample evidence from a significant number of same-sex couples whose lives and that of their children have been and continue to be adversely affected by current South Australian legislation.”

    • Coop says:

      04:21pm | 18/05/11

      That’s all fine and sounds so terribly compelling but a lack of evidence is no way to establish a conclusion

    • Rose says:

      09:42am | 18/05/11

      The comments thus far are quite disturbing. How anyone can think that being raised by two parents who love them is child abuse is beyond me. There has been significant research into the outcomes of families with LGBT parents and the results show these kids have exactly the same outcomes as kids from heterosexual parents. The quality of a child’s upbringing has absolutely nothing to do with the structure of a family but everything to do with the family’s processes and stability. A child will always be better off in a home with LGBT parents, or single parents, if those parents provide a solid foundation for the child, than they would be if they were in a traditional family with questionable parenting techniques.

    • Suzanne says:

      04:29pm | 18/05/11

      Yes but they might catch ‘the gay’ you see and that would be horriffic. Imagine a world with more gays…we’d be well dressed, with stylish haircuts and living in fabulously decorated houses before we know it!

      Much better that children are only born into “normal” heterosexual relationships, 50% of which fail so they can spend alternate weekends with dad. And hey, even if they’re unlucky enough to have parents whose relationship is so dysfunctional they experience violence and abuse at least they can take comfort in the fact that their home life is “natural”.
      Not like those poor kdis with two loving parents who just happen to be the same gender.

      *sigh*

    • TheRealDave says:

      09:43am | 18/05/11

      I’d far rather see a child placed into a home with two stable, loving, same sex partners than some of the inbrwed two headed feral morons running around local shopping centres in this country. Having two dads, or 2 mums isn’t child abuse…bashing the shit out of your kids, torturing them, raping them etc every time you get angry, drunk, stones IS child abuse.

      I bet little Kyla Rogers or Darcy Freeman or Kiesha Abrahams would have been better off with a same sex couple.

      Your sexuality doesn’t make you a good parent.

    • Elphaba says:

      10:50am | 18/05/11

      Exactly.

      The idea that people with no prospects and no future, can have kids whenever they like just because they’re heterosexual, and loving, stable, gay parents who would make a child’s needs paramount cannot, is disgusting. 

      Bigots who wail that this is child abuse sanction it in the same breath by not batting an eyelid when some skank pops out a kid - all because it’s ‘natural’.  DOCS fails these children time and time again, but if loving parents of any preference want to adopt a child, they have to jump through a million hoops and then still get denied. 

      And don’t get me started on women and IVF.  Nature determined you couldn’t have children - now you can.  You want to deny that to other people who nature determined couldn’t have children?  Hypocrites.

      It’s draconian, it’s a double standard, and it’s sickening.  A sexual preference does not determine whether you will be a good parent or not.

    • fairsfair says:

      11:16am | 18/05/11

      I think I disagree with the broad reaching nature of your comment Dave. Statistically, yes, those three little girls probably would have been better off - but you can’t ignore that some same sex couples are just as likely to abuse their kids as hetero couples are.

      Just because someone fights hard and gets through barriers to have children does not make them an ideal parent.

      Like I said, I really can’t work out if I’m Arthur or Martha on this topic - it is far too complex to have an immediate for or against view. My concern is the welfare of the kids (as it is yours too) and I don’t think we know enough about the longterm effects on kids who are not conceived naturally (and that goes for sperm donor/test tube/surrogate kids of heterosexual couples too).

      You are ignoring nature though. I don’t mean to say that it is unnatural for people to be gay, I don’t believe that because the realisation of homosexuality is made by rational adults who have choice to supress tendancies, live a charade, whatever. Kids don’t have the choice though and I do think it unnatural for homosexuals to have kids - they are missing fundamental ingredients in that process at the most basic level.

      I am a believer in what is meant to be is meant to be though and I have to say if I was unable to conceive children naturally as a heterosexual person I would not be interested in invasive procedures to make it happen. But that is a whole other article.

    • Bev says:

      11:26am | 18/05/11

      TheRealDave says:09:43am | 18/05/11
      I bet little Kyla Rogers or Darcy Freeman or Kiesha Abrahams would have been better off with a same sex couple.

      In the interest of fairness it should be pointed out that mothers murder children on average at twice the rate of fathers and for the same reasons.  A fact that thankfuly the media is now reporting rather than pushing it under the carpet as they used to do.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:30am | 18/05/11

      I’m with you on the last point, fairsfair - if I don’t meet the right man and get married etc etc, I doubt I’d be signing up for life as a single parent.  I only plan on having kids with someone I intend to spend the rest of my life with (barring any shitty unforseen circumstances like widowhood or divorce, of course).

      But I don’t mind what other people want to do.  I just want the double standard to be ackowledged and addressed.  The energy spent on barring same sex couples from having kids could be spent on all the kids of heterosexual couples that are falling through the cracks as we speak.

    • Seanr says:

      11:49am | 18/05/11

      I’ll agree with the broad basis of your comment Dave, in that in my view it is having loving parents (same sex or not) which is important. However like FF said same sex couples could be abusive or bad parent’s just like straight couples.

      Unfortunately we haven’t found a way to predict who will be good parents and some people seem to confuse the fact that they can have kids with that they should.

    • TheRealDave says:

      12:03pm | 18/05/11

      I’d agree Elphaba but unlike any old heterosexual drunken pair bonding that results in a child same sex couples have years of paperwork and hoops to jump through before a child is placed with them. You’d have to be pretty well committed and setup after that long drawn out process and there are plenty of checkpoints along the way.

      If anything, same sex couples would have passed far more checks than any hetero couple.

      The three cases I mentioned where just ones of the top of my head that have garnered a lot of press recently.

      Plus, I’m still astounded that people can throw around terms like ‘child abuse’ with, and yes its a deliberate pun, ‘gay abandon’ because their parents may be a gay couple. Thats ridiculous. Even to my heterosexual ears.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:10pm | 18/05/11

      @Dave, yeah, I think that gets my goat more than anything.  Trivialising a term like ‘child abuse’ only deflect attention from where it’s really needed.

    • Jill says:

      02:58pm | 19/05/11

      Well said TheRealDave.  You hit the nail right on the head.

    • Richard M says:

      10:00am | 18/05/11

      I understand that this Committee has also recommended that single women and lesbian couples should have equal access to IVF.  Is it right that we should allow taxpayer-funded facilities to be used by those who don’t have any medical problem which prevents them having children, but who have made a lifestyle choice not to have children naturally?  Is it right that we should use these facilities to consciously and deliberately create children without fathers?  This is surely qualitatively different from situations in which children are left fatherless unintentionally or through the exigencies of life.  These situations are unavoidable, but surely not desirable.  It cannot be right to deliberately create them.  Studies in the US clearly show the damage that is done to children, particularly boys, who do not have a father or a strong consistently present male role model.  I know feminists don’t like this fact, but it can’t simply be ignored.  The constant claim that “as long as they are loved” is simplistic and misleading.
      And another thing: I wonder what these women will tell their sons, if and when they have them, about their future roles in families and life.  Will they tell them that , because so many women are able to make the same choice as they themselves made, the chances of them becoming members of a family and fathering their own children, in the broadest sense of the term,  as opposed to simply being the impersonal donors of sperm, have been substantially reduced?  So what will they tell them about their role in life?  How do they propose that society cope with an increasing number of lone, unsocialised, alienated and angry young men?
      Unintended consequences are usually the worst.

    • fairsfair says:

      10:25am | 18/05/11

      In order to preempt the “its not a lifestyle choice” responses you will now get Richard, I would like to play devi’s advocate and add…

      If heterosexual people are supposed to recognise that homosexuality is not something that can be chosen and it is natural, then homosexual people should recognise that their basic genetic inability to have a child is too natural.

      I have no idea how I feel about this. I see how hard it is for single parents and their children cope - not so much for lack of “role models” of either sex, but the sheer workload. My cousin is a single mother who chose to leave her child’s father off the birth certificate. He is never spoken of unless badly. It is having an affect on her child as she has questions that can’t be answered by her mother or questions that she refuses to answer as she thinks she is protecting her daughter.

      I don’t know how you would go about explaining to your child how they came into existance when it is so different to the majority of kids. Unfotunately no matter how adult and PC we are about it, kids just blert out what they are thinking and it can be confronting to hear sometimes.

      I am an advocate of choice, but I don’t know how it affects kids. I watched insight a few weeks ago about surrogacy and sperm donation and there was a man (who was a sperm donor child) who was just broken. His mother had been completely honest with him his entire life but he explained his life as “lost”. He claimed to have no identity and no purpose. I think that is really sad.

    • Two Mummies says:

      12:27pm | 18/05/11

      Why is it that this myth surrounding a lack of ‘fathers’ in lesbian led families persists? If you read the results of the Work, Love, Play longitudinal study looking at the experiences of families parented by same-sex attracted couples and sole parents run out of La Trobe University you will see that the vast majority of kids born to lesbian parents have active ongoing involvement with their donor fathers.

      And those lesbian couples who do not use a known donor often go to great lengths to make sure their kids, male or female, have relationships with male role models….uncles, grandparents and family friends.

      Lesbians do not live in isolated female only communities and neither are we ignorant to the fact that over 90% of our offspring will grow up to be straight and will seek out heterosexual relationships. What we encourage is love and respect within relationships REGARDLESS of the gender of your partner.

    • Vidmar says:

      12:39pm | 18/05/11

      fairsfair,
      Yours is a great comment… We’re trying to over-rule nature here. If nature is telling you that you can’t have kids then listen. Every time mankind has tried to out-smart nature it eventually loses…
      Gay? Can’t have kids so don’t try.
      Infertile? Ditto
      People don’t listen enough to what the world is telling them.

    • Dave says:

      12:40pm | 18/05/11

      The kids may seek normal relationships two mommies, bet because they have not had a normal family environment they do not see and understand the male/female dynamics. Also it is worse for the boys because they have been proven to be damaged for the sake of their same sex parents selfishness.

    • Matt says:

      01:15pm | 18/05/11

      I completely agree with both of ‘Richard M’ and ‘fairsfair’. I really can’t see anyone being able to argue against those points. But I’m sure someone will try…

    • Slothy says:

      01:20pm | 18/05/11

      “We’re trying to over-rule nature here.”

      Better get off the internet, turn off your TV and give back any medication you’re taking then, it isn’t natural. Make sure your wife doesn’t have any medical intervention during her childbirth either - if the kid is meant to be, he’s meant to be.

      I also hope you’ll let nature take it’s course when you develop heart disease, cancer, or any other terminal illness - we can’t be interfering with what nature has deemed your time to go.

    • Direct says:

      02:18pm | 18/05/11

      Richard, the political and social elite here in Australia don’t give a rat’s arse about most boys and haven’t for over 20 years. They are either contemptable worker drones, existing to slave away and be taxed or they are criminals, usually a combination of both.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:38pm | 18/05/11

      @Dave, what ‘proof’ is there that having ‘Two Mums’ damages a male child? I’d love to see a scientific report on that.

      Most murderers had a male and female parent rasing them in their formative years, as did most rapists, thieves, drug addicts, violent abusers, granhy bashers, bag snatchers, car thieves, serial killers, mass murderers, general arsewipes and yes most homosexuals, lawyers and politicians….and even Kiwi’s.

      By any kind of measure you apply to same sex relationships it could also be conclusively proven that Heterosexuality ‘damges’ children as well.

    • Vidmar says:

      03:19pm | 18/05/11

      Slothy, you’re missing the point…

    • Michelle says:

      03:23pm | 18/05/11

      And another thing: I wonder what these women will tell their sons, if and when they have them, about their future roles in families and life…..

      As a same sex parent I tell my kids that they can be anything that they want to be in life.  That they have the unconditional love & support of their parents whose primary consideration in life is their happiness.

      The thing with being a gay couple is it that we do not live in isolation from the rest of the world.  We live in suburbia amongst other families… some “traditional”, some blended through divorce, some single parent families etc.  Our children see that families come in all shapes & sizes. 

      In all likelihood my children wont be gay regardless of their upbringing.  Despite the protestations & scaremongering to the contrary - none of the gay people I know have gay parents.  We were all born to hetrosexual couples who in the most, love & support us regardless of sexuality.  I like my parents before me will love my child unconditionally in life & will tell them that is ok to make the choices that bring them happiness.

      Our house isnt about political correctness.  Its about day to day functioning like any other.  We dont flag wave, we dont preach, we just get on with life… I fully support the right for other people to live their life & make the choices they want… just dont think that somehow that gives you the right to cast judgement on me & my life,.

    • Suzanne says:

      04:42pm | 18/05/11

      Why do people assume gay couples live in an isolated vacuum and their children will have no role models of the opposite sex?
      Boys raised by lesbians will still have contact with grandfathers, uncles, teachers, neighbours, fathers of friends, sports coaches and so on.
      Girls raised by gay men will still have grandmothers, aunties, friends mothers, neighbours, teachers…the world will not end.
      God, the ignorance is astounding.

      BTW Richard, what studies have shown the damage done to boys with lesbian mothers?

    • Richard M says:

      04:52pm | 18/05/11

      “As a same sex parent, I tell my kids they can be anything they want to be in life”
      Except, perhaps, a live-in, always around, loving and loved husband and father.  That species will steadily become extinct.
      How will your sons understand what it means to be a man and how they should behave, without a consistent male role model?
      Or perhaps, you are really seeking to deal men out of the equation altogether.  The ultimate solution.

    • Richard M says:

      04:57pm | 18/05/11

      Suzanne, can I suggest that you simply Google “absence of fathers” or anything similar and you will find countless studies showing the harm done to fatherless children, particularly boys.  They do not relate specifically to lesbian couples, but this obviously makes no real difference to the point. Such facts are inconvenient, aren’t they?

    • Suzanne says:

      05:14pm | 18/05/11

      Richard…so your beef is not just with same sex parents, it’s with single mothers too?
      Perhaps you should lobby your local DOCS to remove the children of all single and/or gay parents.
      Personally, I know a few people who have been raised by single parents who have nop trouble relating to the opposite sex. I also know many more people with a whole heap of emotional issues who were raised by two heterosexual parents who stayed together when they were clearly incompatible.

      “How will your sons understand how to be a man”...Lol.
      Which part of being a man, exactly? Maybe with two mums they’ll grow up to resepct women, not treat them, as sex objects or feel that they have any right to dominate them.
      Funnily enough, my nephew lives with his mother and his father and despite his fathers influence he has no interest in sport. Must have spent too much time with his mum, eh?

    • Cat says:

      06:23pm | 18/05/11

      the “nature says you can’t have children so suck it up” argument really sounds like a red herring to me - why do some people have to listen to what nature decrees when it comes to having kids but millions of others can make use of modern medicine to resolve any number of thousands upon thousands of health issues to make their lives better? It also ignores the simple truth that somebody elses reproductive choices are nobody elses damn business but their own.

    • Richard M says:

      06:55pm | 18/05/11

      So Suzanne, we can, in fact probably should, just phase out fathers altogether.  Would that make all you man-haters happy?  Apparently, they play no useful role - in fact they seem to be positively harmful.  The only small problem is, what do you do with all those boys you are having on your own and with other women when they grow up.
      No, I don’t advocate taking children away from single mothers - that is a childish argument.  But I certainly oppose deliberately creating fatherless children.  The really infuriating statement is the bit about sons only growing up to respect women etc if they are raised by women.  That is such a revolting and ridiculous insult to the millions of good, decent fathers who raise their children to be totally respectful to women

    • fairsfair says:

      09:14pm | 18/05/11

      A health issue exists. There is a difference between turning to modern medicine to treat an afflication or condition and creating a NEW LIFE. I’m sorry, you can’t equate the use of any kind of medical advancement and technology with instigating the creation of a new human being.

    • Suzanne says:

      12:12pm | 19/05/11

      Oh Richard, now you’re jsut sounding paranoid. Nowhere did I say that fathers should be phased out. My daughter would be very upset for one thing, she loves her daddy, as do I. Not everyone who supports same-sex parents is a man hater and there is no feminist plot to rid the world of men. For what it’s worth I also support families with two dads. As lnog as a child has two parents who love him/her then I believe the sex of the parents is irrelevant.
      I also never said that sons would “only” grow up to respect women if they were raised by women, I said ‘maybe’ they would. You can’t deny that the vast majority of men who beat and abuse have grown up witnessing their own fathers do the same to their mothers.

    • Richard M says:

      03:26pm | 19/05/11

      The trouble is, Suzanne, that your argument necessarily involves the view that fathers are unnecessary and irrelevant for, if this is not the case, and fathers play a desirable and perhaps even necessary role in the upbringing of children, then the deliberate creation of fatherless families cannot possibly be desirable.  Correct?  So it really isn’t being paranoid to draw the necessary implication of your argument that it is fine to create fatherless families, ie those with just two mothers or, in the case of single mothers, only one - the necessary implication being that fathers are unnecessary and perhaps even undesirable - so let’s phase them out.
      As for “two dad” families -ie presumably gay partners - the arguments I suggest are the same, only in reverse.  If it is fine to create motherless families, then the role of mothers in families must be irrelevant.  As a mother, how do you feel about that?

    • Cat says:

      09:22pm | 19/05/11

      “A health issue exists. There is a difference between turning to modern medicine to treat an afflication or condition and creating a NEW LIFE. I’m sorry, you can’t equate the use of any kind of medical advancement and technology with instigating the creation of a new human being.”

      You seem to have missed that the context is medical intervention with both heterosexual and gay couples. I can absolutely equate medical intervention in other matters to medical intervention in this matter, just because you view the moment of conception as something apart that MUST go as nature decrees it does not follow that everyone does. It makes no sense to me that the moment of conception should be excluded from any medical intervention, and yet once conception is achieved a huge variety of medical procedures aimed at monitoring/delivering that potential life are fine.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:00am | 18/05/11

      But one thing I would say is that the birth certificate should be inviolable. Everyone has a male and female ‘parent’. Whether its natural conception, IVF, donor egss, donor sperm etc Those are the ‘parents’ who should be lsited ont he birth certificate. No ifs and or buts about it. Really, I don’t care if anyone is sensitive about it. Its critical medical information. There are a shit tin of heriditary diseases we already know about and more and more we are finding everyday. Being listed ona Birth Certificate can not only help identify these critical medical issues but could also help avoidn any ‘Tasmianian’-like complications in regards to sex and amrriage downte track…I know I’d hate to find out I just nailed my half sister…..

      Sure, let ‘parents’ have some kind of fancy certificate with mum and mums names on it. Make it all nice and colourful and pretty. Put an offical stamp on it. But the plain extract from Birhts, Deaths and Marriages should have the proper details.

    • Rev says:

      03:27pm | 18/05/11

      TRD, I don’t want my birth parents tracking me down - I’ve already got parents.

      I’m happy not knowing who my birth parents are, and happy that they cannot easily find me without me wanting them to.

      As having two birth certificates is a ridiculous idea, how about you build a completely secure database, where medical information and a genetic sample is input from both parents and child.  This will be automatically updated with any relevant info, eg diseases / siblings.  Therefore no inbreeding / deaths due to genetic flaws.

      Or we could just go on living our lives?

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:54pm | 18/05/11

      How would your ‘birth’ parents track you down via a Birth Certificate? It doesn’t list your current address does it? Doesn’t list who your current parents are…your occupation, hobbies, email address, facebook profile, twitter account or anything else. Well…I am assuming it doesn’t since mine was issued in….well…lets say the early 70’s.

      Your birth certificate could help you track them down though.

      I was being facetious about two birth certificates, I was kinda hoping that was obvious but apparently not.

      A secure central database sounds good to me - but it sends snivel libertarians into fits of apoplexy. Far easier, and more private to track them down yourself and ask. And that’s kinda impossible if your parents are listed as Betty Jones and Mikayla Rainbowtree and you need your dads medical history don’t you think? Especially if ‘Dad’ was an anonymous donor at a place that’s been shutdown in the 30 or 40 years since you were born to mum and mum?

    • Rev says:

      04:28pm | 18/05/11

      So why does it have to be on a birth certificate then?
      If civil libertarians are going to get angsty about a database, they’re going to be the same about a birth certificate.  That’s the whole deal with adoption - it is anonymous. 

      Personally, I fail to see how having to contact your birth parents for medical information is less invasive than accessing a database…which admittedly would one day be hacked by some dickhead.  And Dad sperm donor is less likely to donate if it isn’t anonymous.
       
      At the end of the day, I don’t want abortion to become a more attractive option than adoption than it already may be.  I’ve lived 30 odd years longer thanks to the system, but I guess the greatest irony is that I’m pro-choice.

    • Suzanne says:

      04:50pm | 18/05/11

      These days your DNA has more medical information that knowing who your parents are ever could.
      There are many diseases that you can have your DNA tested for to see if you are pre-disposed to.
      And if you’re that concerned about accidentally sleeping with a relative then you can have a DNA test done for that too.

    • Sceptical says:

      10:05am | 18/05/11

      Social Development Committee Inquiry!! - give me a break. It’s this sort of thing that makes me fear for my childrens’ future and here I am not just referring to same sex parenting issue but to the general notion that a society doesn’t develop aturally or organically but one maufactured on the basis of the findings of a Committee!! Like many of these Committees I suspect the outcome was determined at the start and the evidence to support it then generated (and that which contradicted it ignored).

      I can’t see, given that the same-sex parenting phenomenon is relatively recent, that the effects and ramifications have manifested to the point where and accurate assessment can be done.

    • Two Mummies says:

      12:29pm | 18/05/11

      It’s not relatively recent it is now just visable as we start standing up for our rights and the rights of our children.

    • Matt F says:

      10:07am | 18/05/11

      It’s amazing that people can claim that it is “obviously wrong” and “obviously child abuse” and yet never provide any evidence to support this view

    • Coop says:

      04:32pm | 18/05/11

      Yeah… about the same as saying “we cant find any evidence that it damages a child to have lesbian parents therefore it’s good”

      Its absolutely amazing Matt isn’t it?

    • Chip n Chase says:

      10:12am | 18/05/11

      All the available research suggests that children with two mums or two dads do better than children with a mother and father. But that could be because the researchers have been asking the wrong questions.

    • Slothy says:

      10:35am | 18/05/11

      Can you please link to this research and explain why it’s conclusions are more worthwhile than the Committee’s conclusion that children of same sex marriages are not disadvantaged in any way.

      To aid in your comparison, the Committee’s report can be found here: http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Committees/Pages/Committees.aspx?CTId=5&CId=182#, then at the bottom of the page click on ‘Documents’ then ‘Completed Inquiries’, and you’ll find a copy of the full 124 page report titled ‘32nd Report Inquiry into Same-Sex Parenting’.

    • Drop Kick and Punt says:

      10:59am | 18/05/11

      Chip and Chase wrong questions and wrong people.

      Let me explain surveys. The survey operator will ask a contractor for a survey to be done . The contractor will cultivate the required outcome so he/she gets the next contract.. This is usually how governments undetake independent surveys

    • Bilby says:

      11:10am | 18/05/11

      I think to get decent stats, we’d have to compare lesbian and gay parents with equivalent straight parents. That is to say straight parents that have conceived deliberately for a start, and have put as much thought and planning into roles and responsibilities once bubs comes along. As a gay couple can’t just go at it and 9 months later along comes the baby, they have to actually think about it.

      It doesn’t seem unreasonable at all that if you compare gay parents with the entire spectrum of straight parents, the gay parents come out ahead.

    • Slothy says:

      11:24am | 18/05/11

      Sorry Chip n Chase, my comment ended up in the wrong spot and should have gone to RichardM.  If you are interested though, you could look at the report and make your assessments of the research they are relying on.

    • Ray says:

      12:20pm | 18/05/11

      Bilby, why differentiate between between gays and lesbians. This whole matter is about gays legitimising themselves. I don’t particularly think they should. Can to themselves, who cares, but leave the mainsream out out of their sefish self indulgence.

      A girls hockey team a friend plays with has eight lesbians out of 12. The lesbians oscillate beteen each other as partners for a few months a year, two years, who cares. Really just use each other as sexual convenience. Forget the love or the earth moving love at first sight. Others have moved on and then marry blokes and have kids, or jump fences or paddocks at will back and forth.

      So it is a little difficult to abide genuine lesbians - gays if you like, when they oscillate depending on the whim or fashion of the moment. There may be some who are genuine but most are not. They produce a child like a pet, waffling in their own concited space. Most lesbians appear to hate men, so pity help their male progenies. At what age do the baby males turn into the dastardly men. I know of one lesbian couple 35years and sixty years. Hell its like sleeping with your aunty.

      This matter is also more than just gays havin babies. There is a collective impact of a range of legislations. for example the Family Law Act, and the Discrimination legislations, and IVF, adoption, which alone have ethical, humanitarian, and philanthropic value, upon which we base our civisation. I’ll have to count on people’s intellect to consider the collective implications of the several free standing legislations, But on many fronts the collective impact of one upon another can compromise the original intent. for example genuine IVF for people with conceprtion difficulties. The real intent of IVF was never to be hijacked as a tool for lesbians to conceive or artificially produce supermarket shelf babies.

    • Bilby says:

      05:06pm | 18/05/11

      Ray - Nothing you’ve said cannot be said about straight people as well. If you’re going to win this argument, you need to come up with stuff that *only* applies to gay (male or female) couples.

      Plenty of straight boys and girls are complete sluts.

      Lots of straight men appear to hate women (from what I read here).

      Lots of straight women appear to despise men (again from what I read here).

      I know some pretty shitty straight parents who treat their child like a fashion accessory.

      If you can come up with something other than “I hate gay people” then by all means have a go, otherwise your anger and bitterness completely overrides any message you might have.

    • Emma says:

      10:12am | 18/05/11

      Some of the comments on this post are unimaginable, There is nothing wrong with two women or two men raising children together NOTHING, and you bigots that think there is and are calling it child abuse, you are awful people and when your time comes to be judged by someone who trully matters you will be condemned for the words you have spoken

    • Richard M says:

      10:58am | 18/05/11

      Hold on, Emma.  I agree that those who simply hate homosexuals deserve your abuse.  But surely there are some legitimate questions to ask about this, which ought to be able to be raised without accusations of bigotry.  These questions mainly have to do with issues relating to the absence of paternal role models and confused identity.  It has been clearly shown in the US that boys in particular suffer badly from the lack of strong, consistently present paternal role models, and this should not simply be ignored or waved away.  There are also even more difficult, longer term questions about the role of males in society should the production and raising of children without fathers continue to become more prevalent, as now seems likely. 
      No amount of simplistic PC sloganeering about equal “rights” (as if having children is a right) will address these important questions.  Is it not appropriate to ask women to think about these issues more deeply before they rush into a brave new world?

    • Slothy says:

      11:26am | 18/05/11

      Comment reposted in to the correct spot, sorry for the repetition.

      Richard M, can you please link to this research and explain why it’s conclusions are more worthwhile than the Committee’s conclusion that children of same sex marriages are not disadvantaged in any way.

      To aid in your comparison, the Committee’s report can be found here: http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/Committees/Pages/Committees.aspx?CTId=5&CId=182#, then at the bottom of the page click on ‘Documents’ then ‘Completed Inquiries’, and you’ll find a copy of the full 124 page report titled ‘32nd Report Inquiry into Same-Sex Parenting’.

    • Harry says:

      12:32pm | 18/05/11

      Emma, so if people are concern that a child have a BALANCED upbringing and KNOW its origans they are bigots, etc, etc. News flash, your selfishness, arrogance and bigotry against the social norm is showing! You better watch out when it is time for you to be judged.

    • Slothy says:

      01:05pm | 18/05/11

      Thanks for the links. Sadly your first link is giving me a file not found, even when I try to correct for the broken link.  As to your second link, I see a lot of abstracts abou the impact of divorce and single parent families, but no references to comparisons with stable same-sex marriages. I also see no reference to male role models, nor can I access the full reports to check on their methodology.  Furthermore, you have not explained to me why these particular abstracts are more powerful than the literature the Parliamentary Committee has relied on to come to their conclusion that same-sex marriages do not damage their children.

      Finally, as Two Mummies has repeatedly pointed out it is a red herring to suggest that same-sex parents do not recognise the importantance of healthy role models and go to every effort to ensure their children are brought up as happy, healthy and well-adjusted as possible.

    • Janey says:

      04:33pm | 18/05/11

      Really Emma?  And who is this mystery judge?

    • progressivesunite says:

      11:03am | 18/05/11

      Sigh. How predictable there is a deluge of “it’s not natural!” “it shouldn’t be allowed!” Guess what? These kids are going to exist whether you want them to or not so the issue is with their legal rights, not whether women are allowed to bring them into the world….they’re already here….and short of ordering that all lesbians have hysterectomies, you’re not going to be able to stop it!

      Also, ‘nature’ didn’t intend for kids to be raised by ‘mother and father together’. Nature intended for an egg to be fertilized by sperm (however that occurs), but anything else is human-made. I’m not saying mum/dad/kids isn’t a good thing, but it’s not the only thing (and sadly there are several children in the news lately who would still be alive right now if their fathers had walked away as soon as the conception bit was done…).

    • Bev says:

      12:42pm | 18/05/11

      I will repeat it again. Mothers murder on average twice as many of their children than do fathers. Are women taught in gender studies to ignore facts that are inconvenient to the propoganda line women good men bad?  It would seem so.

    • Andrew says:

      12:49pm | 18/05/11

      I think this is a point that is often forgotten. Same-Sex couples have children NOW! This legislation is not about paving the way for an “onslaught” of same-sex parented children. But to provide exisiting children of same-sex parents with the same rights as their peers…

    • Ray says:

      01:26pm | 18/05/11

      Precisely Bev.

      Also more women murder their husbands and get away with it.

    • AliceC says:

      04:23pm | 18/05/11

      So women murder, let’s lock them all up yeah?

    • Ray says:

      04:47pm | 18/05/11

      No Alice just the ones that murder and get away with via some contrived battered wife syndrome. The only species ever authorised to murder. That’s putting yourself above JC

    • progressivesunite says:

      07:42pm | 18/05/11

      Ray, you’re a bit of a charmer aren’t you? Women who murder their violent, abusive husbands as their only form of self defence don’t get away with it - they’re usually sentenced, just not for murder.  Smarter people than you have worked this out….

    • Bev says:

      01:25am | 19/05/11

      progressivesunite says:07:42pm | 18/05/11
      Women who murder their violent, abusive husbands as their only form of self defence don’t get away with it - they’re usually sentenced,

      Yup The latest one in SA threw accelerant over her husband then threw a candle at him.  She go a 6 year suspended sentence. The judge said “she had suffered enough”.  The fact that her husband died an agonizing death didn’t seem to matter.  Its interesting that the so called self defence involves shooting your husband from ambush or hitting him with an axe while he sleeps to name a couple. Of course women claim their husband abused them (true in some cases) any lawyer worth his salt is going to tell her to claim that.  After all he is not there to refute the claim is he.

    • RyaN says:

      11:07am | 18/05/11

      Surely allowing same sex partners to have children is tantamount to child abuse?

    • James1 says:

      01:12pm | 18/05/11

      Care to explain your reasoning?

    • RyaN says:

      01:37pm | 18/05/11

      @James1: A child intentionally conceived should not be dealt an intentional emotional hardship like not having a mother or a father. This goes the same for people who intentionally decide to be a single parent.

    • James1 says:

      02:18pm | 18/05/11

      Fair enough on the intentional emotional hardship - I would actually agree entirely.  That is why this stuff makes me a little uncomfortable - especially the planned single parent stuff (two parents, regardless of gender, are better than one).  But child abuse?  Doesn’t this trivialise actual physical and sexual violence against children?

    • RyaN says:

      03:46pm | 18/05/11

      @James1: potentially and I would never like to do that however psychological abuse can be just as horrific as physical abuse.

    • NSW says:

      11:14am | 18/05/11

      Same sex “parents” = wrong. The line needs to be drawn at adoption to a male and a female. I’m pretty sure that for a kid to grow up and become a normal human they need both a male and female influence. Two dads/mums is not natural and there are already enough messed up people in society. I’m not a bigot either - I’m just smarter than you people that think otherwise.

    • Bilby says:

      11:41am | 18/05/11

      Totally agree, but we can’t just stop at gay parents because the same applies to single parents. Divorce could get a little complicated but such is life. Perhaps the custodial parent should be forced to remarry within a given period of time (say 2 weeks) or the divorce is null and void.

    • Two Mummies says:

      12:33pm | 18/05/11

      No you are not a bigot just an idiot regardless of how smart you think you are.

      Kids in gay families have opposite sex role models all around them. They have male and female influences from Aunts, Uncles, granparents and friends. You think we raise them in cupboards under the stairs just in case they are influenced by someone of the opposite gender to their parents?????

      Gay people are normal you apparently are not.

    • RyaN says:

      01:34pm | 18/05/11

      @Two Mummies: you seem defensive, why is that?

    • Ray says:

      02:06pm | 18/05/11

      Two Mummies - read slowly

      THEY DON’T HAVE FATHERS

      read again.

      Isn’t that what you want.

    • Tim says:

      02:33pm | 18/05/11

      Two Mummies,
      you can say it as often as you want it doesn’t make it right.
      No amount of uncles and aunts can make up for not having a mother or a father. They are completely different relationships.

    • Two Mummies says:

      02:44pm | 18/05/11

      Ray pop out and find someone who can read this for you…

      MY DAUGHTER HAS A FATHER

      Shall I write it again for you???? You are making an assumption (and we all know that makes an ASS out of you) that lesbian parents exclude fathers…as I have pointed out elsewhere in this blog that is not the case for the majority of lesbian families.

    • Ray says:

      03:31pm | 18/05/11

      TWO MUMMIES Look I’m tiring of this, but who is the father and what’s his role.

      You are very confused. Is it the role play of your lesbian partner, does she wear a bib and brace, is it a surrogate father like and uncle or brother. Such fantasies exist. It doesn’t make a father. But the terminal salf delusion you exhibit consumes you. I mean seems to, because I don’t know you. But you cannot kid yourself with fantasy fathers. Nor are you the one case fits all

    • June says:

      03:53pm | 18/05/11

      Yeah Two Mummies, “your daughter has a father”, BUT he is not in her life like a normal father in a marriage. It therefore is IRRELAVENT what you say. He cannot provide a NORMAL and BALANCED home life role model. At best he can be is a “blow in”. Thus the physiological damage is done to the child, which you choose to ignore to support a life style choice that is not capable of bearing fruit. Of course you will no say where is the proof of damage, talk to teachers to start with, they can pick a child without a father a mile off. There was also stats from ages ago that showed that a girl that did not have a father had a significantly increased risk of being a young single mother as they desperately searched for the male companionship they were denied. And so it goes on.

    • AliceC says:

      04:10pm | 18/05/11

      @June

      “Yeah Two Mummies, “your daughter has a father”, BUT he is not in her life like a normal father in a marriage. It therefore is IRRELAVENT what you say. He cannot provide a NORMAL and BALANCED home life role model”

      And you now this how? How well do you know Two Mummies? I know people who had a mother and a father, and the father abused them. Is this your preferential environment?

    • Redneck says:

      11:22am | 18/05/11

      Don’t agree with this at all. Homosexuality is unnatural in that it is against nature.  If it were not, then the human race would be extinct.  Why would anyone condone a child being brought up by people with deviant sexual practices (deviant is against the norm)?  Very wrong

    • Daniel says:

      06:09pm | 18/05/11

      What does what someone does in the bedroom have to do with their ability to be a good parent?

      One could argue that oral sex or doggie style is deviant sexual behaviour and unnatural since it is not necessary to procreate, it still has no relevance to being a good parent.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:45am | 18/05/11

      I notice a lot of people are citing the ‘selfish’ whims of the couples involved.  Isn’t the decision to have children inherently selfish in the first place?  No one has kids for altruistic reasons…

    • James1 says:

      02:23pm | 18/05/11

      I think there are some reasons that are less selfish than others.  My partner was 19 when she conceived, I was 20.  Many people told us to get an abortion, as that would have been better for our careers - we were both just starting university.  Neither of us could bear the guilt of an abortion, and we decided to have our daughter despite the difficulties associated therewith.  I think our reason was only half selfish - half because we could not bear the guilt, the other half because we had conceived this little person, and she deserved a chance at life.

      So I guess it is more of a selfish spectrum - some decisions are more and less selfish than others.

    • Elphaba says:

      02:38pm | 18/05/11

      @James1, I don’t mean to say that selfish has a negative connotation - sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t.  I would call myself selfish, but I am single, with no dependents, so every decision I make is in relation to whether it is the right decision for me.  So long as I don’t deliberately hurt others in said decision, then it’s ok.

      What I meant was, who actually, when they have children, sits down and says ‘I’m having this child for the good of the nation, or because my parents want grandkids, etc etc” - regardless of what circumstances the conception happens, at the core of it, people have kids because they want them.

      So for the bigots to claim that gay people are being ‘selfish’, whilst benefiting from the laws of nature, is ludicrous.  We all have children because ultimately, they are a *want*.  We want to spread our genes, we want to be parents, we want to fulfill our biological destiny.  Nobody has kids for the ‘greater good’.

    • straight single father says:

      12:32pm | 18/05/11

      I thik your pride is misdirected Ian and the whole issue has nothing to do with children rights. It is about homosexual rights and laws allowing adoption of children for homosexuals are directed to destroy straight family which is one of the points of socialist agenda.
      Two mums , two dads - grotesque and totally unnatural , even in the aspects of evolutionism.

    • TheRealDave says:

      04:25pm | 18/05/11

      But being a single father is natural? Or a single mother?

      There are just as many people who abhor divorce and single parentage as those who abhor same sex couple parenting, just to let you know

      Signed, TheRealDave, Heterosexual Married Father

    • AliceC says:

      04:28pm | 18/05/11

      It’s also totally unnatural to drive a car, wear synthetic fabric, have a heart operation, inject insluin, but that is not frowned upon.

      How does homosexual couples adopting children destory straight families. I am a member of a straight family as so far, I personally have not suffered…

    • Ray says:

      12:54pm | 18/05/11

      This whole matter seems to be about gays legitimising themselves. I don’t particularly think they should. Can to themselves, who cares, but leave the mainsream out out of their sefish self indulgence.

      A girls hockey team a friend plays with has eight lesbians out of 12. The lesbians oscillate beteen each other as partners for a few months a year, two years, who cares. Really just use each other as sexual convenience. Forget the love or the earth moving love at first sight. Others have moved on and then marry blokes and have kids, or jump fences or paddocks at will back and forth.

      So it is a little difficult to abide genuine lesbians - gays if you like, when they oscillate depending on the whim or fashion of the moment. There may be some who are genuine but most are not. They produce a child like a pet, waffling in their own concited space. Most lesbians appear to hate men, so pity help their male progenies. At what age do the baby males turn into the dastardly men. I know of one lesbian couple 35years and sixty years. Hell its like sleeping with your aunty.

      This matter is also more than just gays havin babies. There is a collective impact of a range of legislations. for example the Family Law Act, and the Discrimination legislations, and IVF, adoption, which alone have ethical, humanitarian, and philanthropic value, upon which we base our civisation. I’ll have to count on people’s intellect to consider the collective implications of the several free standing legislations, But on many fronts the collective impact of one upon another can compromise the original intent. for example genuine IVF for people with conceprtion difficulties. The real intent of IVF was never to be hijacked as a tool for lesbians to conceive or artificially produce supermarket shelf babies.

      You can go further and include adoption laws, abortion, gender selection legislations, and hell bent lesbian ideology to gender cleanse men from the world. We are in a position where society cannot deny women anything, despite any greater and wider societal outcome. Is anyone seriously going to tell me that an IVF implanted lesbian couple who discovers her embryo to be male would not access the convenience of abortion availability.

      Another bow to draw is domestic violence legislation and the attendent availability for a woman to terminate her husband or partners life with vexacious claims to justify her actions and get off scot free.

    • D says:

      01:20pm | 18/05/11

      Excuse me, Ray, but I am incredibly offended by your post.

      I have been with my same sex partner for around eight years. She is my first - and only - love, and our relationship is solid and stable. I have never used anyone as a sexual convenience and, despite being involved in a women-only sporting club, have never had any inclination to “bed-hop” around it.

      I have friends and family who are also in long-term relationships, and I have friends who are single, and friends who have a series of one-night stands. Some of my friends are heterosexual and some are homosexual. There is no correlation between their sexuality and their relationship status.

      My partner and I are soon to become parents of a beautiful baby (and you can flame away, I am secure enough in our ability to parent that I’m not really concerned about your opinion on the subject). However, I can 100% tell you that I would never “access the convenience of abortion availability” if my child were male, and I bitterly resent your assertion that I and all or even most lesbians would.

      Do you know what many same-sex couples go through to conceive children? It costs so much in time, money, emotional energy and legal advice. All parents make sacrifices and I am not in any way complaining about the sacrifices we made - but there is no way we would have put ourselves through that just to abort the child (in particular, have a late term abortion - because it’s nearly impossible to accurately find out the sex before 19 weeks) because he happened to be male.

      In fact, the couple who have been in the news recently, who aborted twin boys because of their sex - they were heterosexual, weren’t they?

      I don’t expect to change your mind but would kindly ask that you find some rational basis for your statements before saying things that are so incorrect and offensive.

    • Happy Family says:

      04:06pm | 18/05/11

      I too am horribly offended.

      My partner & I have been together in a monogamous relationship for the past 7+ years.  We have one child with another on the way.

      I worked in an office where one guy had slept with 8 out of 12 women that worked there.  Is this any different than your hockey team scenario.

      You seem to want to generalise what a lesbian is.  We come in all shapes & sizes, all ages, races, education levels etc.  Some play the field, some dont…. Its not possible to put a label upon us to say thats who we are.

      Who am I? I come from a loving hetrosexual family of 5 where I am the only gay member.  I am educated & successful career wise.  I was bought up with strong family values including love, trust, respect, loyalty etc.  The same values that I now pass onto my family.  I dont have a flashing sign around my neck that says lesbian - unless you got to know me you would probably be none the wiser.  I am a person first & foremost & apart from who I have chosen as my partner, the gay bit is virtually irelevant - we simply consider ourselves a family like any others.

      Do I want to see my children afforded the protection that comes with amended legislation just like any other child- absolutely.  Do I want any special treatment - not at all. 

      Our children have plenty of male exposure.  Do I hate men? No - I just dont like sleeping with them!!!

    • Ray says:

      04:40pm | 18/05/11

      Happy Family; As a woman you already get special treatment.

      ‘Male exposure’ is not a father.

      If you’re persona don’t hate men you’ve done a poor job of concealing it

    • Ray says:

      01:51pm | 18/05/11

      D, I’m incredibly offended by lesbians, couples or not. I’m also offended that a particular group has a philosophy against men, one step accentuated above what even the average female similarly thinks. You could say my comments help that philosophy, but I didn’t start the all out war against the other gender which women perpetuate with social complicity. A war where only one side is authorised to fire salvos.

    • andre says:

      02:14pm | 18/05/11

      You re right Ray.
      All those children who have “the right to list their non birth mother on their birth cetrificates” will have to go , with that right, thrugh primary and high school. You can only image amount of teasing and abuse from other kids , they will have to put up with.
      Besides I do not believe that deviant family will produce normal kid. Deviants breed deviants.

    • Two Mummies says:

      02:31pm | 18/05/11

      Ray you are obviously a terribly misinformed individual so why don’t you take some time to read and absorb what people are telling you on this blog. Educate yourself to how the world really is compared to the bizzare picture you are painting for yourself.

      Lesbians are not against men. We do not have a philosophy of hating men. It’s very simple Ray lesbians are lesbians because they have an emotional attraction to other women in the same way that heterosexual women have an emotional attraction to men. The attraction is innate, we are born with it.  That’s it Ray…pretty simple I would have thought even you could understand.

      Lesbianism is not a political movement, it’s not a philosophy, we don’t even have a union. We don’t hate men, we don’t exclude men from our lives, the overwhelming majority of us have men who we adore in our lives ranging from fathers (our own and our childrens), brothers, uncles, grandpa’s and best friends.

      I realise of course that I am talking to a brick wall in your case but there may be others reading this blog who will take the time to educate themselves….there will be others who want to understand all the issues and put aside their own prejudices. There will even be young people (or old for that matter) who are in the closet afraid to reveal their sexuality because of people like you, I am hoping they will read the positive comments on this site from gay and straight people.

      At the end of the day I take comfort in the fact that in 10 years time this won’t be an issue, I will be legally married to my same-sex partner who will be legally recognised as our daughters mother and you will still be bitter and twisted and ill-informed grin

    • D says:

      02:46pm | 18/05/11

      I don’t hate men, Ray. I don’t want to have a sexual relationship with a man, but that doesn’t mean I hate them. I’m presuming that you don’t want to have a sexual relationship with a man either - but that doesn’t mean you also hate men.

      I was going to give a list of all the different men in my life who I don’t hate, but that felt a little too “some of my best friends are…” to me.

      So suffice it to say that the only men I hate are those men who group together a vast array of people based on a single characteristic they all share, attribute to that group an attitude, mannerism or viewpoint that may be evident in a small extremist minority if at all, and then use that attitude, mannerism or viewpoint as an excuse to hate on and discriminate against the whole group.

      But then, I hate women who do that too, so…

    • Ray says:

      03:07pm | 18/05/11

      TWO MUMMIES - Why is it that people like you think that people who have a different opinion to you are misinformed. Please teach your daughter that other people may have different opinions and that after absorbing and listening to those opinions you can form your own opinion. I’m educated, experienced and never bitter. I’ll give you my forthright opinion though.

      Lesbians with their little child are living in their own world of makebelieve using another human to facilitate their feeble mind.

      And please do not try to tell me most women and an even higher proportion of lesbians do not have an on-going vendetta against men. You mention fathers, brothers etc. Well strange as it may seem they are also directly effected by the priveleges purloined from society at the expense of men. So this affact love I see as very hollow and imature.

      The difference between men and women is that men deal in reality whereas women thrive on emotion and esoteric vapourising of ideas. The issue here though is a child’s path being chosen differently to the path of nature.

      A person born with any physical difference needs to carry that through life.. Being lesbian or gay is unfortunate (in my opinion) some are genuine some are not, But if that’s what life deals you you need to accept it but not cmpromise other people who have no choice in the matter.

      NoteI have not found it necessary to say even you could understand that.

    • Ray says:

      03:17pm | 18/05/11

      D, I’m starting to get the picture. You fell in love with yourself at an early stage and stayed faithful ever since.

      Really I don’t believe a word about what you say your felings toward men are. You are one individual. But to try and tell me the over all philosophy of lesbians (and women) is not a unfetted animosity towards men. But as I said that is not the issue. The child does not have its ‘natures choice’. Rather an indoctrinated environment inposed upon it..

    • AliceC says:

      04:04pm | 18/05/11

      @Ray

      You say you have the right to be offended? Well, I too have the right to be offended by your ‘opinion’.

      And what war do you speak of? I am not at war against men, and I know many women who are of the same mindset.

    • RyaN says:

      04:19pm | 18/05/11

      @Two Mummies: “I will be legally married to my same-sex partner who will be legally recognised as our daughters mother” clearly you haven’t been keeping up with the times, the world is changing and its going to be a long time before the world turns left again after what we have been subjected to by the degenerate baby boomer generation.

    • Ray says:

      04:34pm | 18/05/11

      That’s the point AliceC. Most women draconiously bang on about rights for women and gain many priveleges at men’s expense. Then in true hypoctatic oeth say they love men. If you’re offended, tuff.

      Please blithely continue in your delusion that women as a whole have not dined out on men for decades, or for the whole lives of some adult males. As with lesbian couples women can be denied nothing. They can have legislation provided for them to discriminate against men and claim exactly the opposite is being done to them by men. Get over it and face reality (please). You (women) would gain some respect then

    • Happy Family says:

      04:37pm | 18/05/11

      Ray… I doubt that given your very onesided opinion that you spend much time with lesbians yet somehow you seem to know how we think?? 

      Like both D & Two Mummies…. I dont hate men either.  Seems to be 3 from 3 so far.  You seem to have us painted as some right wing man hating association or something - it just doesnt exist.

      Do all lesbians think exactly the same - no we dont.  Do all hetrosexuals think the same way -no you dont.  For that we can be grateful - that your narrow minded opinions are not shared by the majority. 

      As for your generalisations of men & women…. I am quite capable of making “realistic decisions” & I am far from a the quivering emotional individual that you seem to have painted 50% of the population as.

    • Mr. Ed says:

      04:47pm | 18/05/11

      Ray - So what privileges have women gained at men’s expense? The right not to be raped by their husband? Or the right to vote? The right to own property? The right to not be either their father’s or husband’s property? Which privileges are you talking about, because I’m confused. Men are the privileged group, Ray, more often than not at the expense of women.

    • AliceC says:

      04:48pm | 18/05/11

      “Most women draconiously bang on about rights for women and gain many priveleges at men’s expense.”

      Please elborate, I am unaware of any rights that were removed from men when they were granted for women. As far as I’m aare, men can still vote, own property, etc.

      “Please blithely continue in your delusion that women as a whole have not dined out on men for decades, or for the whole lives of some adult males.”

      People have taken advantage of/abused other people for the entire human history. You cannot tell me men have not done the same to women what you are describing above? Abuse is not limited to gender.
      “As with lesbian couples women can be denied nothing. They can have legislation provided for them to discriminate against men and claim exactly the opposite is being done to them by men.”

      How does the legislation for children of lesbian (or gay) couples to be recognised by law as having parents of the same gender, discriminate against men?

      “Get over it and face reality (please). You (women) would gain some respect then.”

      The reality is, same sex couples raising children is no more harmful or risky then heterosexuals. What is harmful, is people basing opinions on limited/no experience.

      I don’t know why you are so angry about women, but there are places you can get help and deal with these issue.

    • Ray says:

      06:13pm | 18/05/11

      “Most women draconiously bang on about rights for women and gain many priveleges at men’s expense.”

      Firstly AliceC You’ve heard of the Sex Discrimination Act? It’s full title is The Desrimination (Against Women) Act -check it.
      Secondly, Men have not abused women backed by legislation ie aforesaid Discrimination Act, Family Law Act, Domestic Violence Act. Workplace Harrassment. (how many diva journos have cashed in on this one) In fact men’s normal charter in life has been to care for women- In return?

      Also to justify anything, by two wrongs make a right, is absurd.

      Thirdly, read my ealier comments on collective and incremental effect of overlapping legislation. Don’t we criticise China for preferring a son as the first child (the mild version ie against a term of ‘putting down’) But lesbians will be able to choose their preferred female sex via our Abortion legislation.

      Fourthly my experience is not limited.The reality of same sex couples raising children is no more harmful or risky then heterosexuals? We’re not talking harm, but the laws of nature and consent of a child. Like DNA testing women control the question of whether a DNA can be undertaken.

      Fifthly women are just a pain in the arse because they seek legislation to ensure their outcomes regardless of talent or input. It’s not me that needs the help - (read reprogramming). I once adored them but never again.

      Over and out for me

    • Ray says:

      06:18pm | 18/05/11

      Mr Ed or ‘Noddy’ I thought all horses could read, but I suppose you can lead ‘em to water but can’t force ‘em to drink. Read the comments on the blog, then please don’t get back to me

    • supportive of gays says:

      02:10pm | 18/05/11

      i have a gay mother in law, and two brothers in law and i have NO problem with them having children.

      the only thing that worries me is the teasing that my partner and his siblings got when his mum “came out” his sister is still going through councelling from the abuse she suffered and is still suffering.

    • Tim says:

      02:27pm | 18/05/11

      I think the author has asked the wrong questions. The rights of the child should trump those of the parents, whether they be same sex or not. He should have asked ‘Is it fair to deny an adopted child any chance of being raised by a loving mother and father?’.
      As soon as you allow same sex adoption, then you deny the right of the child to what is closest to a ‘natural’ upbringing.

    • Hannah says:

      02:40pm | 18/05/11

      wow… there’s some hardcore crap being written here. having two mums is child abuse? if you haven’t given bith then you’re not the mother (do people say this about adoption?) C’mon people… get a grip! What si far more concerning then two women loving and brining into the world a happy, healthy child is what is on the front page of today’s sydney morning herald… the phenomenon of fathers killing children to get back at mothers. A situation which criminolgists have linked to women and children being treated by men as property. This is teh dark side of abusive relationships and power structures enforced by our society. This is what is unhealthy, this is what is a danger to children adn not in tehir best itnerests. So, get over what gender someone’s parents are… as long as there is love and safety in the household, then it is a good one. Find something real to worry about please

    • Tim says:

      03:19pm | 18/05/11

      Im not sure that ‘some fathers hurt their children therefore its ok to have 2 mothers’ is a defensible position.
      If the opportunity exists for an adopted child to be raised by a mother and father, then the government should place the child in that environment.

    • Hannah says:

      04:44pm | 18/05/11

      I’m not saying ‘some fathers hurt their kids, so then two mums is perfect’ is right at all. I am pointing out the hypocrisy in an argument which arbitrarily associates the wellbeing of a child based on the gender of their parents when children’s best interests are threatened by abusive relationships. We shouldn’t be focussing on the gender of parents of the structure of their relationship, the only disdvanatge that brings for a child is the societally created perception of same-sex relationships. Is a child being brough up in safety and love, regardless of the gender of his or her parents? Yes? Is it in their best interests? Yes… then good luck and let’s move on!

    • Outraged says:

      03:15pm | 18/05/11

      Did anyone see that Aussie Documentary last week on Foxtel called: “Australians Exposed - Sex, Lies & Double Lives”?

      It had a STRAIGHT couple who held swingers parties in their house so they could hook up with other randoms…yet THEY also had children!

      Why aren’t the homophobes saying these people shouldn’t have children? They are obviously raising them in a dysfunctional lifestyle…yet it’s “OK” because at least they are having hetero sex?!

    • mike j says:

      03:36pm | 18/05/11

      I think it’s pretty obvious that men > women, so any child being raised by lesbians is at a clear disadvantage.

    • Hannah says:

      05:11pm | 18/05/11

      and by this reckoning… kids being raised by two fathers are at the clearest advantage. Well, there we have it mike j, two father scenario is king!

    • Miles says:

      03:55pm | 18/05/11

      Topics like this bring out the biggest hypocrites in society.  People will shout from the rooftops that it is these single-sex couple’s right to have children if they wish.  But if anyone dare have an opposing opinion, then they are wrong and have no right to be against such an idea.  If people are against it for whatever reason, then they have a right to be.  It doesn’t make them wrong, and it doesn’t mean they can then be targets for abuse.  Too long has our society dictated that only the Politically Correct opinion is the ‘right’ one.  I for one will never be shamed, guilted, pressured etc into an opinion that I don’t believe just because it’s seen as being PC.

    • AliceC says:

      04:08pm | 18/05/11

      There’s a difference in having an opinion, and legislation preventing you from acting out that opinion. What if it was legislated that men had to be sterilised after one child? Or that women could no longer vote? Many people would have an ‘opinion’, but you would agree the legislation itself would only affect a certain segment of society?

    • Get Bent says:

      04:19pm | 18/05/11

      OMG!!!
      1st it’s marriage ... now they want our weet bix…ahhhhhhh!
      What if the kids don’t want gays for parents?
      Can they sue?

    • AliceC says:

      04:49pm | 18/05/11

      What if the kids don’t want heterosexual parents, can they also sue?

    • Hannah says:

      05:06pm | 18/05/11

      I’d say they have same tortious right as some one suing their homophobic parents for bringing them up to be close-minded? i.e. they haven’t got a legal leg to stand on

    • Luce says:

      05:25pm | 18/05/11

      Taking a child away from loving, caring parents purely because they’re both of the same gender is not only an insult, but an unproductive, misdirected waste of resources. End of story.

    • Lay Adventist says:

      06:32am | 19/05/11

      From the heading, it is assumed that Sanitarium Health Food Company, makers of Weet-Bix, and by association, the owners, the Adventist Church sponsor and advocate lesbianism and homosexuality!

      Nothing could be further from the truth.

      Did you check their position on this before slandering their product? It would be interesting to hear what their response, both from the legal and religious divisions, is…

    • Breakfast Lover says:

      06:41am | 19/05/11

      Did you get permission to use the trademarked name “Weetbix” for this article???

    • steve says:

      01:08pm | 24/05/11

      A child can only ever have one mother. My opinion is that it is totally unnatural and violating the laws of nature to artificially create life.

      IVF babies are twice as likely to have birth defects and astronomically more likely to be aborted by the body after conception. Why? Because it is not a natural process. There are many factors that go into a man and a woman creating life together, it is not simply a matter of placing a sperm and an egg in a dish together.

      For whatever reason nature has decided that gay people shouldn’t have children - and it should stay that way. I don’t think gay people should be discriminated against, but artificially creating life should not be an option.

      Bringing a child into the world without a mother and father is not just child abuse, it is a crime against nature and is seriously messing with the evolution of our species. Our gene pool is becoming weaker by the day.

      Children raised by same sex couples are also much more likely to be gay themselves. That is a stat hidden by the gay community because it blows away their argument that people are ‘born gay’.

 

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