It has become fashionable to engage in a debate about the state of public debate of late.

Can I say something without being gagged? Anything? Pic: Kym Smith

This introspection comes as some have made a dubious link between atrocities such as the Gabrielle Giffords shooting in Arizona or the recent killing spree in Oslo, and normal albeit robust discussions on talkback radio and the internet.

In the frame are issues like asylum seekers, immigration, and as The Australian’s Janet Albrechtsen put it in an excellent piece mid-week, “the relationship between Islam and modernity”.

Free speech she said, “must include the right to offend”.

The suggestion from some on the Left that merely by questioning policies such as multiculturalism, radio personalities promote the violent acts of extremists, is absurd. And to use such tragedies to stifle discussion is nakedly opportunistic.

Nonetheless, what might be termed “the debate debate” does have a more legitimate sphere and is occurring against a generalised complaint that politics has become unhealthily polarised and perhaps a little too willing for its own good.

Some cite the Liberal Party’s move from moderate policies under Malcolm Turnbull to those under Tony Abbott as well as the rise of Tea Party conservatives in the US, to claim that the previously shared middle ground has been vacated.

Mr Turnbull drew a withering put-down yesterday merely for observing that small-L liberals have a place in his party and that elections are won in the centre. That such a benign and sensible observation was seen as inflammatory by his chief destroyer, the retired Nick Minchin, says much about the rawness of political culture at present.

Environment and Water Minister Tony Burke addressed this theme last month at the Sydney Institute listing three “iconic issues” in his court: climate change, the Murray Darling Basin, and protection of National Parks.

“Not long ago all three brought bipartisan support. All three were the product of shared values. All three are now in the thick of partisan politics. How much has changed in two years?”

Quite.

From the political Right, there is derision at this assertion as members point to the past aggressions of Paul Keating and Mark Latham and to the vitriol routinely directed at John Howard, Philip Ruddock and Peter Reith. They have a point.

On the Left however, there is a sense that Mr Abbott’s unbending adversarialism has licensed a new sense of anger in talk-backland and that this has given others permission to become ever-more shrill and offensive. Certainly Mr Abbott prefers to chat to his cheerleaders on commercial radio over the less sycophantic scrutiny of the national press gallery. But he’s no pioneer there.

Of course, the right to offend in a liberal democracy must remain untrammelled. But in practice the jewel of free speech comes with strings attached. As with many rights it has to be mediated against the greater good.

Consider speeding. We readily accept that in a democracy we may go where we choose free of border checkpoints and travel papers. But we also readily accept conditions on that. We know freedom of movement does not imply freedom of the speed of movement.

Speed limits on the roads are just one of thousands of examples of negotiated rights which are delimited for the safety and wellbeing of others and importantly, for the maintenance of the social order as a whole. This is the deal we all implicitly make as members of a society.

Yes it would be disastrous to legislate further limitations on free expression - those already in place are more than enough, literally. But that does not mean that individuals should not maintain respect and civility in their exchanges. This should not be a matter of law but of civics - and dare I say - of common sense.

Which is where the call for a return to less heated and more respectful public discussion has merit.

Those in positions of influence who show disrespect for example to the office of prime minister, do as much harm to the principle of free speech as those who would silence them.

This goes to recent well-known examples of radio demagogues treating Julia Gillard with scant regard in interviews and then railing to their complicit audience that she is a liar and should be dumped at sea in a bag. And it goes too to the disrespect shown to scientists in the carbon debate.

Yes this is free speech but it is also abuse. Exploiting discontent and seething victimhood may lift their own ratings but they diminish the whole and weaken the fabric of society.

This is not about political correctness because no subject should be ruled out of bounds.

Rather it is about the protection of free speech through the mature exercise of that right and the eschewing of over-heated rhetoric which serves no other purpose than to offend.

106 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Luke4 says:

      06:21am | 06/08/11

      How come Howard never got all this support from journo’s when he was slandered, sliced and chopped in the media? How come Howard never ran around blaming anyone?
      How come Howards pacific solution had people marching in the streets and burning banners with his picture and he never complained, neither did the media then?
      What makes Gillard so precious she should be protected?

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:19am | 06/08/11

      Don’t worry Luke it is just the regular Saturday leftist rant from Mark Kenny who is trying desperately to get out of Adelaide.

      What he fails to mention in his article is that the, biggest danger to free speech, in politics is the press itself.

      Yes that’s right the press.

      One more time, THE PRESS!

      Every time a politician has the audacity to speak his own mind the press come screaming in that a, split is in the ranks, or that the politician is not showing loyalty, to his/her party. 

      How can debate go on under these circumstances? It can’t! It has to stifle in the back room hidden from the prying eyes of the press.

      The press is killing freedom of speech in politics, and they don’t give a shit, because it makes money if a split occurs.

      This week Turnbull/ Abbott
      Next week Rudd/ Gillard
      The following week Brown/Milne

      It is crazy and it is one of the biggest problems Australia faces and in my opinion paramount to treason against our working democracy.

    • Chris L says:

      11:32am | 06/08/11

      Luke4, I take it you missed the outrage over the Chaser group, and the childish charicatures in Indonesian papers, and over any blogs that criticised Howard. Oh yes, Howard got plenty of support whenever he was lambasted. Why is such a reaction considered wrong now?

    • Kipling says:

      02:49pm | 06/08/11

      You mean John Howard “The Man of Steel”? That John Howard?

    • Douglas says:

      09:04pm | 07/08/11

      Without their cheerleaders in the media the Coalition would be and have nothing. AM talk radio, News Ltd, Their ABC, Channel 10.

      They need a rigged media landscape to remain viable politically.

    • Jason says:

      06:42am | 06/08/11

      It looks like after 11 years in opposition this Government can’t handle scrutiny and their supporters in the media are doing their best to muzzle it and to discredit anyone who does.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      01:16pm | 06/08/11

      More to the point Jason…After nearly 12 years in government, conservatives (4 years on) are still struggling with the fact that they are the opposition and not the government.

    • maree says:

      04:01pm | 06/08/11

      Martin: Thats the oppositions parties job !

    • Denny Crane says:

      05:09pm | 06/08/11

      Martin Hopes - I know ordinary every day Australians are struggling with the fact that the Coalition is in opposition. We need some reprieve from these incompetent, inept, hypocritical group of clowns that are now running the place.

    • Christian Real says:

      10:25am | 07/08/11

      Maree
      The Oppositions’s responsibilities include highlighting the government’s mistakes and proposing alternative policies.
      So what alernative policies as Tony Abbott and the opposition proposed????????????????????????????????????

    • Martin Hopes says:

      10:32am | 07/08/11

      Thanks for that Maree!

    • Tom says:

      08:47pm | 07/08/11

      CR, illustrated the point pretty well about unintelligent debating. Go and read the LNP web site.

    • Maree says:

      03:43pm | 09/08/11

      Christian: Opposition parties rarely put up detailed policies during mid term. Unless the government does not have a policy on the issue. It is political suicide to do so, unless the government is so incompetent that it needs to get or steal ideas from the opposition. In reverse remember Kevin Rudd’s ‘me to’ approach ? It worked and showed the liberal government of the day how NOT to give policy ideas to the opposition. Clever politics by Rudd, if you do not have an idea, get it from the opposition and embelish it. Is it any wonder that political parties usually issue policies not long before an election. Basic politics ! Unfortunately politics is not about good government, its about how long a party can stay in government, again, basic politics.

    • James In Footscray says:

      07:07am | 06/08/11

      On the contrary, there’s too much civility! We need to be shaken up with some radical and provocative ideas, expressed forcefully.

    • Amused says:

      08:04am | 07/08/11

      I think the biggest problem is, that previously all the noise and demonstrations only ever came from Labor and the Unions, and Greens.  All the lefties thought it there god given right to scream from the rooftops.  The right, by nature , have been less demonstative and more reserved.  But never in our history (except maybe Whitlam) have we ever been so scared and worried for our future.  We can tolerate incompetence, but not to the extent that it will ruin our future. Just what this dictatorship of Gillard and Brown are hell bent on doing

    • Super D says:

      07:09am | 06/08/11

      If an election were held next week there would be a change of government with a huge swing.

      One of the consequences of this sweeping election victory would be an immediate change to the public discourse as the ALP and its supporters would be forced to confront reality regarding their own incompetence and unfitness for office.

      The simple fact is that we have a Government that has been cobbled together by opportunistic politicians that does not enjoy popular support and is introducing a huge policy it explicitly promised not to.  Only an election will rectify this and only after an election will the public discourse return to a more “civilised” level.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      12:54pm | 06/08/11

      @ Super D - “Only an election will rectify this and only after an election will the public discourse return to a more “civilised” level”

      So what you’re basically saying is that this discourse has been the making of the ‘right’, we weren’t elected therefore we will carry on like spoilt children until we have an election, the conservatives will be returned to power and everything will become civilised again. Spoilt children cry until they get what they want, spoilt conservatives cry until they are returned to government.

      There will be another election held sometime in 2013, we don’t hold elections at the whim of upset right-wing conservatives because they’re not happy with government policy. The Australian public had to suffer nearly 12 years of a far right-wing Howard government, of which nearly half the voting public didn’t agree with him or more to the point, didn’t like him, we didn’t call for an election every time he introduced unpopular legislation.

      Like it or not, this is how our system of democracy operates, and has done so successfully since federation.

      Grow up Super D and stop acting like a spoilt conservative brat!

    • Martin says:

      02:07pm | 06/08/11

      @MartinHopes (Labor gets to 2013)
      We have been reading this type of rant from Labor supporters for ages, “crying conservatives” . The fact of the matter is you and all the other Labor wafflers on here are scared of the fragile and incompetant nature of this government.  When the likes of Graham Richardson is quoted as saying he doubts this minority arrangement will last 3 years and that he thinks Gillards gone, you know there’s a big chance things will fall to pieces. I’ll be taking notice of Richo long before I’ll be listening to your rant Martin Hopes.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      04:53pm | 06/08/11

      @ Martin – Did Graham Richardson give any valid reasons why he believes this government will not survive until 2013? Or was he just spouting what his current employer wanted him to say?

      Last August when Gillard became Australia’s first female Prime Minister we had the rabid right shouting she would not last 6 months, then it became 12 months, what now? She won’t last 18 months?

      Based on the amount of legislation being passed, it appears that this minority government is operating without any problems, and there appears to be no reason why they won’t last until the next election is due, much to the chagrin of conservatives.

    • Martin says:

      11:16am | 07/08/11

      @Martin Hopes, another stupid statement. This nonsense that there are day to day instructions given to journo’s and commentators working somewhere within News Ltd is a Labor fantasy. It’s absolute nonsense. As for Richardson’s comments, they are no doubt based on keen political nouse for which he is well known and respected on both sides of politics. You, no doubt, are also aware of this. Your problem is that you hate the very real possibility of his predictions to become reality. This minority government is on a tight rope, and historically minority governments have a very poor survival rate, no doubt this also figures in Richo’s thinking.

    • Erick says:

      07:24am | 06/08/11

      Why was this not a problem when people were disrespecting the office of Prime Minister while it was occupies by John Howard? He copped far worse, for far longer, than Julia Gillard ever did.

      It’s interesting that all these calls for civility should emerge only when it’s icons of the Left who are feeling the heat.

    • Martin says:

      02:14pm | 06/08/11

      Exactly, Erick. I was listening to the radio the other day, and this rabid Labor supporter phoned up most outraged when she heard people refer to the present PM as “Gillard”. When Howard was PM, all you ever heard was “Howard this and Howard that”” and “Little Johnny Howard”.  What about all the bulldust re “The Pacific Solution” I don’t see Get Up launching a campaign against the “Malaysian Solution” ?

    • Amused says:

      07:57am | 07/08/11

      Exactly, they cant seem to remember their own behaviour.
      All of a sudden, the media and Gillard are demanding we show them some respect.  Well earn it !!!!  She is a power happy communist and now we are being told - You will stop disrespecting me !!!!
      Forget it Mark, forget it Gillard.  We are reasonable people and we are insulted at being disrespected by a bunch of inept and useless dictators.

    • John A Neve says:

      07:26am | 06/08/11

      In my mind there can be no doubt that the polarization of our political scene has become more pronounced of late. Or that the current two party system is destroying democracy. I say two party system but in fact it isn’t, what we really have is a so called Labor party which is far from true Labor ideals and a Liberal party in name, welded to a rural rabble.
      There are other parties, but the majors keep them in their place, by uniting to fight any who would keep our democracy alive
      Politics in this country is at it’s lowest level since, I believe, the turmoil of the ‘50’s.

    • PeterD says:

      08:01am | 06/08/11

      Gillard and the Greens are trying to shut us up, they can get stuffed.

    • Chris L says:

      02:09pm | 06/08/11

      I see your post got through PeterD. Either their attempts to muzzle you are unsuccesful or a fabrication. Either way, not much to complain about.

      Don’t get me wrong. I see a dangerous agenda behind the ISP filter, but the cause is better served by directing opposition toward tangible targets.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      08:02am | 06/08/11

      RE: Environment and Water Minister Tony Burke addressed this theme last month at the Sydney Institute listing three “iconic issues” in his court: climate change, the Murray Darling Basin, and protection of National Parks.

      I was busy trying to work on some environmental problems in Asia for the past few years and I did not previously participate in the debate on global warming and Govt policies in Australia until the last few months.

      On reading our newspapers online recently I was shocked to find that the ALP-Greens Govt has been conned by Economics hocus pocus. My view is that Govt should never ever cheat the public on any environmental issues even though the concepts may sound sexy as in some aspects of the carbon tax. The reason why I say this is because the truth and reality will surface eventually and the Govt then lose public support to solve an environmental problem.

      In the proposed carbon there is that sexy economics slogan that if you make the big polluters pay then they will reform and hooray the problem is solved. This simple concept is simply not true. In this case the power stations will simply pass on their additional costs from the carbon tax AND MULTIPLIER effects costs onto the consumers. The reality is that at present there is NO alternative to coal power in Australia.

      Just look at what the Australian Productivity Commission says about the cost of power: Productivity Commission figures show the cost of electricity generation last year broke down this way: coal power $79 per megawatt hour; gas $97; wind, $1502; solar $4004.

      The naive people think that once solar panels are installed there is FREE energy. But the Govt cannot be so stupid on this. Forget about grandstanding Summit and talk fest. Just have a heart to heart talk with the CEOs of three Solar Energy companies and the truth will be very clear. I am a Consultant to a solar energy company.

      The carbon tax will clearly harm Australia with negligible impact on global warming because our share of global CO2 emission is only about 1.5%. Because of rapid economic growth and huge increases in populations in China and India our share of global CO2 emission will decrease even if Australia does NOTHING to reduce CO2 emission in Australia. Sadly the carbon tax will harm Australia and I am not alone to say this. Andrew Liveris a prominent expat Australian and an Adviser to President Obama also thinks so.

      If we are really serious about actions which will have significant impact on fighting global warming we need to find ways to help China and India reduce significantly their CO2 emission.

      One Win-Win action we can do is to lift our embargo on uranium sale to India. By this simple and cost effect action which will benefit Australia economically we can help India reduce its CO2 emission yearly which is MANY TIMES the annual TOTAL CO2 emission in Australia.

      Why harm Australia with the carbon tax which will have almost ZERO impact on global warming because our share of global CO2 emission is about 1.5%. It will costs Australia billions and billions of dollars.

    • Erick says:

      09:58am | 06/08/11

      Well said indeed, Dr Goh!

      I have always been of the opinion that Rudd’s mindless cancellation of the uranium export deal with India was a stupid, stupid move.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      10:35am | 06/08/11

      Thanks for your support.

      It amazes me that our FM was working hard in April this year to sell uranium to UAE in the Middle East. He should not sell uranium to any country in the Middle East with lots gas or oil. It is such an unstable region and looking worse everyday with events in Libya, Syria and Egypt.

    • Gregg says:

      10:39am | 06/08/11

      There may be attempts to hide the truth Doc. but there are enough thinking people out there to know what it is and the reality is now surfacing and that’ll make things even more turbulent not only for those who are attempting the hiding but for the population being misled.

      You only have to look at what is happening around the meditteranean and further afield to see the extremes of turbulence.

    • Gregg says:

      11:03am | 06/08/11

      The sub continent is in such turmoil, India included that it has even been predicted by some observers that building population, communist and other interests pressure could see India fragment into several zones.
      It is quite possibly not the place that we should be giving any nuclear fuel to, especially when two protagonists already have nuclear weapons.
      Let them sort out their own problems and if that unfortunately means for many to be killed, perhaps that is natures way of controlling over population when governments fail to act.

    • Gary says:

      12:35pm | 06/08/11

      @ Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:08:02am | 06/08/11


      “One Win-Win action we can do is to lift our embargo on uranium sale to India. By this simple and cost effect action which will benefit Australia economically we can help India reduce its CO2 emission yearly which is MANY TIMES the annual TOTAL CO2 emission in Australia.”


      Doc, a simple question from a very simple man. As India already has nuclear weapons, do they not already have access to uranium?. We [Australia] aren’t the only source of the stuff, afterall. If they were really interested in peaceful useage of uranium, wouldn’t they already be generating ‘cheap, clean power’?.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      01:35pm | 06/08/11

      @ Gregg and Gary. I share with both of you that there are huge problems on the Indian subcontinent.

      But we need to engage India on the Nuclear issue. USA has accepted India as a partner in Nuclear Energy. We need to engage India by sale of uranium. There are well worked procedures to stop diversion of our uranium to make weapons.

      We should also work with China and India on Thorium Nuclear Reactors. To date all the scientists and engineers engaged in R&D on Thorium Reactors believe they can be safe. This is because Thorium has the interesting property that the difference between melting point and boiling point is 2946C. Thus it can be designed to melt and not boiled and throw radioactive pollutants into the atmosphere.

      India has the largest reserves of Thorium. Australia also have substantial deposits of Thorium.

    • marley says:

      01:59pm | 06/08/11

      @Gary - India used plutonium from a Canadian-built nuclear reactor to generate its first nuclear test back in the 70s.  The Canadians were embarrassed, since their nuclear program is entirely for peaceful purposes.  India’s small uranium reserves are kept for the weapons program.

      However, India also has a growing nuclear energy program - according to Wiki, 6 nuclear power plants housing 20 reactors with another half dozen plants and 9 or 10 reactors under construction.  Its domestic uranium supply is nowhere near sufficient to power all the reactors on line or planned.  Ergo, a sales opportunity for us.

    • Dr. B. S. Staye says:

      10:47am | 07/08/11

      Thorium Shmorium
      Me, I prefer the fruitloops reactor.
      Australia has 10 percent of the worlds known fruitloops reserves.
      This technology has been under investigation for many years and several other countries are close to being able to generate enough baseload to power a gazillion candles.

      Fruitloop reactors are the way of the future. You can’t make nuclear weapons out of the fruitloop by products and there is that nice yummy spell that is produced.

    • NigelC says:

      08:53am | 06/08/11

      What a good article. Another perspective is that public discourse has always been driven only by those willing to participate. The silent majority has remained - in most cases- the silent majority. The rise of web 2.0 has given rise to a new phenomenon whereby, inflammatory, facile and intellectually weak arguments are put into the public domain where they have the same or greater influence on public debate as well considered, researched, edited and, in some cases, peer reviewed articles.
      The silent majority, still remains the silent majority but loud bullies now claim to speak for them.  (Some Punch contributors are not much more)
      Our politicians do have a dual role - to lead public opinion and to reflect public opinion.  These roles are often in conflict. Radio shock-jocks are also driven by the same imperative - to retain and grow their popularity and in both cases the overall quality of public discourse is diluted to the lowest common denominator. 

      I don’t have a solution but I reckon I am some way towards understanding the problem.

    • James In Footscray says:

      11:38am | 06/08/11

      Hey Nigel, why do we need a solution? Isn’t it good to have as many different opinions as possible, some valid, some ridiculous? Can’t we let people work it out for themselves?

    • NigelC says:

      02:51pm | 06/08/11

      James, I understand where you’re coming from but I think the imbalance of opinion needs to be addressed because at the momnent the shrieking bullies have more influence than anyone else.

    • James In Footscray says:

      03:31pm | 06/08/11

      Nigel, the problem is - who’s the gatekeeper?

    • nossy says:

      08:59am | 06/08/11

      Since Abbott took over the leadership of the Libs Mark debate , in particular parliamentary debate , has fallen into the gutter. Not that you would expect anything different from a “boover boy” type pollie! And that is why I call on the eloquent Malcolm Turnbull to step up to the plate Mark lest Australia becomes a political laughing stock under Gillard and Abbott, two C grade pollies if ever I saw! Turnbull will restore some class and dignity to political leadership. I mean look at Question Time - its degenerated into a school for dummies - Abbott has called some 15 plus censure motions, all defeated - why does he bother - and the schoolyard behavour of pollies on both sides cries out for decent leadership lacking under Abbott and Gillard. Turnbull is a reasoned and measured debater unlike Tony “knuckles” Abbott the master of the “umm and err”. The extreme Right nutters that have hijacked the Liberal Party have a lot to answer for Mark!  Malcolm Turnbull for PM!

    • Gregg says:

      10:55am | 06/08/11

      @Nossy,
      Now come on mate, are we now seeing the end of the real more even handed Nossy?
      Do you ever watch question time in parliament, remember the rants of Rudd and no wonder his heart valve needs replacement.
      And then Gillard is no different, some people claiming she is a great debater but she delights in just cutting people down as much and as often as she has the opportunity.
      How many times have you heard her refer to Mr Rabbit and in public and to seek to get a laugh out of it, this being when she is PM.
      And even if not showing any respect at that, there’ll always be a Dr. No thrown in somewhere and phrases like what else would you expect of the liberals.

      Respect starts at home and she sure doesn’t show it and now people squeal about the lack of respect for the office of PM.
      Have you ever heard Tony Abbott actually ridicule Gillard and more’s the point, it is more often he’ll be addressing issues in the manner of ” it is not the leadership that there is a problem with but that of bad policies and decisions “

      You’re even referring to him as Tony ” knuckles ” Abbott and so where does that come from.

      There is one thing that is making Australia so laughable and that is bad policies, policies that have been horribly skewed, in some cases through the leaning of the Greens and now even they’re not so on side in a few matters.
      And then of course, there’s a government with such a low approval rating and one that is not trusted by the majority of Australians.

      It would not be an opposition doing itys job if they did not take all the faults up to a government to have them face reality.
      Still you have so called independents so rooted in their hatred for a particular party that they’re not even giving any respect to the majority of the people they represent.

    • Chris L says:

      12:13pm | 06/08/11

      Question Time has resembled a kindergarten sandpit for as long as I can remember. Abbott does win some points from me (for what it’s worth) when he very occassionally gives some credit or benefit of the doubt to his opponents. It’s a rare moment, but he’s a step ahead of Gillard in that respect. If our politicians chose to lead by example I think it would be easier to muster up some respect for them. At the moment I couldn’t bring myself to vote for either of the majors.

    • Glen says:

      12:49pm | 06/08/11

      I’m sure your Labor mates would be glad to have him lead Labor to the next election.

    • nossy says:

      01:34pm | 06/08/11

      @Gregg - a keen defence of Abbott from a loyal subject there Greggy!  hahhhha He was of course a boxer at college hence the “knuckles” - showing your lack of history there Gregg. Yes I no longer care two hoots about the Libs or Labor for that matter - I firmly belive Malcolm Turnbull is the answer for this country, as do an increasing many,  and suspect he will prevail in the end - when your hero Tony “knuckles” Abbott is carted off bloody nosed at election 2013!

    • nossy says:

      01:39pm | 06/08/11

      @Glen - wash your mouth out with soap Glenny!  hahahah Honestly fella Labor stinks to high hell and so does their carbon Tax - only problem is the Oppostion under the Redneck nutter Tony “knuckles” Abbott stinks even worse!

    • nossy says:

      01:47pm | 06/08/11

      @Chris L - “At the moment I couldn’t bring myself to vote for either of the majors.” - I am with you there fella - hence my support for Turnbull to lead the Libs - a surefire win in 2013 for the LNP!

    • malohi says:

      09:00am | 06/08/11

      Who draws the line between the offensive rhetoric and mature gentlemenly debate? You? The media?

    • JT says:

      09:01am | 06/08/11

      So in the reality Mark Kenny lives in; free speech is paramount…unless that free speech is ‘‘over-heated’’ and more importantly disagrees with Mark Kenny, in which case it must be avoided or shall we just say forbidden.

    • David of the Grand Academy of Adelagado. says:

      09:08am | 06/08/11

      Is it any wonder that the public is disgusted by the current state of debate? Its a natural outcome of the utterly depressing quality of the politicians themselves. We have politicians charged with child pornography and shoplifting. Other politicians and senior public servants are in jail for assorted serious offences. Others are accused of spending too much time in brothels or gay bars. Very few have any work experience outside of politics or unions. Overall its a mess. We are currently represented by the worst bunch of self serving, power hungry, incompetent, narcissistic liars and thieves in our history. Punch should get to the heart of the matter and examine the lousy quality of the politicians themselves.

    • Chris L says:

      02:02pm | 06/08/11

      The very act of seeking power tends to corrupt people. Someone once told me (I don’t know if it’s true) that the ancient Greeks would draft a successful administrator (such as the director of a successful company) to lead the state until a certain criteria (based on economic or military success) were met. This, to me, sounds like a promising alternative to our pretense at democracy.

    • Phil says:

      03:14pm | 06/08/11

      I agree. How about an in depth look at each politician. Investigate their credit ratings, business interests, past employment and complaints against them. I put it to you that less than 30 of the 150 are really fit to do the job in question. I ask would you get on a plane with one fo them as your captain, not in your life.

      I agree the current bunch and many past labor state governments are/were corrupt criminals. Ok Joe was a shonk, but at least he was a competent shonk, who got on with the job of running QLD. The current and recent past state governments arfe/were hopeless employing senior public servants on party political basis not merit or the best person for the job. We could do a lot worse than to bring in a simle law for all polititions. Make them as responsible as they make us. As company directors if we make misleading and deceptive comments we can have the full brunt of the law against us. If they promise something and it doesnt happen then they are personally liable for it. If they really change their mind, then either a fresh election of they resign or are removed from the front bench for a term. It would hold both sides to account.
      Take the NBN, if it works out great, if not the ALP can personally be responsible for it and its losses. If it is ultimately a success, pay them the profit. They would then have to do things properly. They can get a referrendum for items that are not economically viable but they feel are so important that it overrides this.

    • Glen says:

      02:17pm | 07/08/11

      “...that the ancient Greeks would draft a successful administrator (such as the director of a successful company) to lead the state until a certain criteria (based on economic or military success) were met.” That my friend is Stalinism. Russkies, Chinese et al tried that on the collective farms the only problem was there was no economic incentive for the big bosses to delivery on the targets and give up their power. Sure a bullet to the head is some incentive, but the reason they had starvation and shortages was there was still no incentive to put in 100%. Easier to fudge the numbers and lie (not to difficult without rule of law).

      This is why Radical Labor/Green policy is so dangerous. The people they purport to represent - the poor - will be screwed more then anyone else under a new order.

    • Chris L says:

      11:59am | 08/08/11

      @Glen - Stalinism specifically ensured that the power would remain with Stalin. The idea of taking someone from their business to run the state until a goal is reached before allowing them to return to their business sounds like an incentive to me.

      Of course we can’t take the idea too seriously. I was more trying to point out how power corrupts and those seeking power are already corrupted at some level.

    • leftie rightie says:

      09:10am | 06/08/11

      I like that you mention maturity and respect, because that is what the issue is in terms of abusing others in acts of free speech, lest you accept that all moderated feeds destroy our right to free speech.

      I wonder if Janet agrees that we are against extreme Muslim clerics describing women as meat and such, so it is equally fair to be against extremes of other ilks stating equally narrow, offensive, disrespectful and hatred inciting ideas?

      Free speech is a wonderful privilege of an advanced society, yet that privilege has a shape and form as part of the protection of the advanced and modern societies in which such freedoms exist. A little bit of catch 22 here, but with maturity and common sense surely we can debate and discuss our views AND choose a path forward together?

    • Chris L says:

      02:13pm | 06/08/11

      Full agreeance Leftie Rightie. While I feel frustration at some of the less constructive, more aimless attacks of some posters and politicians I would never support the idea of censorship. A sense of etiquette, however, would be a welcome change.

    • Phil says:

      09:24am | 06/08/11

      Harden up princess. If you lot on the left cant handle the heat in the kitchen I suggest you all get out.

      Paul Keating had probably the most vile and effective tongue in politics. I didnt hear you lot screaming then, its just that now Julia and the Labor Party have in common with Erroll Flynn that everything they touch they f@ck.

      Labor the Greens and all on the left are incapable of winning an argument, putting across a point and are losing ground in voter land. Even labor heavy weights would concede the next election is lost. They are probably hoping that Tony Abbott makes as much a meal of it as they did so they may get back into office this decade or the next. They would struggle to effectively hand out food in the horn of Africa right now such is their inability to do anything correctly.

      Your argument is flawed given that everyone who is not a fully paid up card carrying member of Carbon Tax 2012 is considered a flat earther, denier etc etc.

    • Chris L says:

      12:15pm | 06/08/11

      At least Keating put some wit and style into his invective.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:57pm | 06/08/11

      We made allowance for Keating’s acid tongue probably because Keating did stuff- like introduce compulsory superannuation, float the dollar, reduce tariffs etc. Last decent PM Australia has had. Howard, Rudd and Gillard have all been crap. Tony Abbott will be crap as the next PM.

    • AdamC says:

      09:26am | 06/08/11

      Hasn’t talk radio, at least in Sydney, always been quite shrill and intense? This notion that it has changed in the last year or two is never supported by evidence, just asserted dogmatically. What has actually changed, of course, is that the political consensus on CO2 emissions taxation has collapsed globally, mainly due to the catastrophe at Copenhagen.

      Now the left finds itself fighting a rearguard action that it didn’t expect and seems to think it is terribly unfair. (And they also seem upset that people got angry about being lied to and misled, which isn’t helping their cause.) But that, of course, is the nature of democracy.

      And since when has anyone argued against national parks or water conservation in the Murray Darling basin? That seems like yet another piece of ALP BS.

    • Chris L says:

      02:16pm | 06/08/11

      The consistency of political discource has always been 90 percent BS. It’s just that the internet makes it slightly less difficult to wade through. Someday maybe the pollies will adapt, but the form of that adaptation will probably involve removing that last 10 percent.

    • Kipling says:

      09:38am | 06/08/11

      Thanks for that article; it seems to me that the term overlooked here is that free speech comes with certain responsibilities…

      Of course it also seems apparent that we en masse are rapidly becoming a species less interested in responsibility over our desire for personal immediate gratification (PIG). In order though for a debate on debating to have any effect there needs to be some thorough education on the principles of debate and oratory.
      Main Stream media has been complicit in the decline in helpful debate and not just the “radio” shock jocks. To some degree media, particular that which considers itself “news” media is not actually an appropriate forum for opinion, except of course letters from us poorly educated punters…. Sadly though it is mainstream media’s main source of income in the modern world. With opinion pieces media no longer provides the useful service of informing the broader public instead (and regardless of which ideological view point is promoted) its single main endeavour is to form public opinion. In other words our media has willingly reduced itself to being a propaganda machine, despite its much-vaunted freedom (from government interference) of the press. That is of itself a gross attack on free speech, equal to that which you eloquently point out in your piece.

    • jo says:

      10:53am | 06/08/11

      KIPLING Your comment that “Our media has willingly reduced itself to being a propaganda machine” shows you are missing the point that,  Opinion pieces, written by poorly educated or educated people, is what connects us australians as a people.
      I am interested to hear what my fellow australians have to say, whether i agree with them or not, and also I think i am tolerant enough to accept differing views,  I would prefer to live in a world where people are free to express what they really think, than pandering to a military type world where, Only people in power have a right to voice an opinion, I say POWER TO THE PEOPLE.  this is the only way the world can move forward, when we the people of this world join together and question, and debate, this world we are living in. PROPAGANDA has been around since the beginning of time, the only difference now is with our easier acces to the media, we can spot it quicker.

    • Kipling says:

      02:48pm | 06/08/11

      No Jo, I get the point about opinion pieces, however, I don’t think you quite grasp the point that “NEWS” media specifically is not about opinion, except as I have already noted, perhaps the letters section. It is, or was intended to be about facts, full and thorough facts as these provide people an opportunity to develop informed opinions.
      As to my “uneducated” comment it was meant sarcastically. I have great respect for others opinions.
      Even the public voice sections can be grossly manipulated and, often times it would appear they are most certainly.
      Don’t you think that if the publics voice was genuinely respected it (the very inappropriately termed) news papers would dedicate a bit more space than a bit of a page to (maybe) a page? Whereas their professional opinion formers…. err commentators are often allocated up to two entire pages to fill, for a single individual.
      I have no dispute with your desire to explore other opinions via our media; in fact, I support and encourage it whole heartedly, however, I think it patently obvious that the limited media option available do not share it fully, frankly and honestly.

    • Zaf says:

      09:52am | 06/08/11

      Defending the right to offend is a straw man argument.

      What is really the issue with certain radio personalities or right wing newspapers/networks is that the right to free speech is being interpreted to mean the right to mislead and misinform without being held accountable.

      We don’t accept that interpretation when it comes to people peddling chocolates or bin liners.  We don’t accept it when it comes to medical practitioners or pharmaceutical companies.  In fact we don’t accept that when it comes to any commercial transaction.

      So why should freedom of speech mean the right to mislead it when it comes to people peddling political ideas about how to run the country?

      Over to you, Janet.

    • marley says:

      11:20am | 06/08/11

      Actually, defending the right to offend is not a straw man argument.  Precisely that issue was very much to the fore last year in a series of Canadian human rights tribunal hearings over an article which a Muslim group there challenged under assorted hate speech legislation. 

      The article, by a right wing writer, Mark Steyn, talked about the demographics of the Muslim population in Europe - “Eurabia” I think was the term used.  Now, some of Steyn’s statistics were shaky or open to interpretation, and some of his opinions doubtless offensive, but in the end, his right to express his opinions trumped the right of the Muslim group not to be offended.  The BC Human Rights Tribunal found, for example, that, though his arguments relied on stereotypes and dubious data, and were doubtless offensive, they did not constitute hate speech and were therefore protected by freedom of expression provisions in Canada’s Charter. 

      I guess one could say, then, that freedom of speech includes the right to publish articles that are one-sided, and hence arguably misleading.  Accountability rests with the right of those who have other views to publish rebuttals.

    • grant says:

      03:54pm | 06/08/11

      saying something is strawman argument is the definition of a strawman argument

    • Zaf says:

      12:08pm | 07/08/11

      @ Marley -

      Blurring the line between being merely offensive (completely covered by freedom of speech) and being deliberately misleading and dishonest in selection and presentation of facts as news (imho arguably not so covered, because there are many many many examples where we require truth in advertising) does not do the cause of freedom of expression any favours.

      Right now it seems as if politicians and journalists are insisting that they be held to lower standards of truth than people who produce potato crisps or loaves of bread.  Freedom of speech clearly doesn’t cover the right to lie about the ingredients in your chips or bread when selling them to the public.  Politicians journalists should be able to LIE about policies when presenting them to the public either.

      @ Grant * arched eyebrow* ??

    • marley says:

      04:56pm | 07/08/11

      @Zaf - well, just as one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, so one man’s deliberate misrepresentation of the facts is another’s interpretation of them.

      My point was, really, that “defending the right to offend” is not in fact a straw man argument - it’s a very real and current issue.  And the Human Rights Commission did criticize Steyn for misrepresenting his data, or using wonky figures, but nonetheless sustained his right to do so.

      Of course, Steyn wasn’t pretending to be reporting news.  He was writing an opinion piece.  I’d argue that there’s a difference between “news” and “editorial opinion” and that the former must be factually accurate but the latter must have more leeway.  Otherwise, we don’t have freedom of speech at all.

    • Zaf says:

      11:36pm | 07/08/11

      [Of course, Steyn wasn’t pretending to be reporting news.  He was writing an opinion piece.  I’d argue that there’s a difference between “news” and “editorial opinion” and that the former must be factually accurate but the latter must have more leeway.  Otherwise, we don’t have freedom of speech at all. ]

      I think you’ll find that newspaper editors (and the publishers that pay for them) rather like presenting their own opinions as news.  Hence their determined blurring of the issue.

    • Bruce 'Bruiser' Brown says:

      09:59am | 06/08/11

      To be blatantly offensive or abusive to someone is NOT about freedom of speech or free press, FFS, give me a break…it’s a moral and ethical issue.

      I don’t go around abusing people and being offensive to them because I have that right…I go around abusing and offending people because I’m an uneducated bogan with absolutely no morals or ethics.

      If people are offensive or abusive to me…I don’t sit down with them and debate their right to freedom of f***ing speech…I simply smack their smug smile of their f***ing dial.

      Don’t get me started on PC…...FFS.

    • The Badger says:

      09:59am | 06/08/11

      Defending the shock jocks?
      Defending the indefensible.
      Don’t tell me it’s OK to make shit up and plant it in the middle of the news section of the newspaper and call it fact. Sorry, that’s not on.
      If it’s your opinion and you want to talk shit, that’s fine, just label it shit before you grunt it out to the masses.
      You “journalists” disgust me almost as much as your proprietor.

    • James In Footscray says:

      11:35am | 06/08/11

      Hey badger, you’re able to identify what’s rubbish on the radio and in the paper. So why not trust other people to work out what’s valid and what isn’t? Or are we not as smart as you?

    • Gregg says:

      12:08pm | 06/08/11

      @my mate Badger,
      Come on Badge, don’t have such a rotten day now.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      02:28pm | 06/08/11

      Andrew Robb comes out the other day saying there was no investment in Australia until someone pointed out to him that it was at 50 year record highs.

      Joe Hockey then comes out and compares Australia’s economy to the current situation in Greece until it was pointed out to him that he was talking shit.

      Tony Abbott runs around the country telling local business how bad off they are then he takes his family on a holiday to Europe, don’t worry about supporting the local tourism industry Tony.

      These are but of few of many negative scaremongering messages being espoused by the coalition.

      If the opposition are going to insist on continually talking down our economy at least come up with facts to back up your statements, as The Badger said…Don’t make up shit and try and call it fact.

      Talking down the Australian economy in the manner that the opposition are is bordering on treason and they should be held accountable for such. Their continued lies in relation to our economy are more damaging to consumer and investor confidence than anything the ALP are doing, or perhaps this is part of the coalition ‘tea party’ tactics.

    • AT says:

      10:05am | 06/08/11

      “Exploiting discontent and seething victimhood…”

      Well, that there’s your problem. And it is your (the media, including The Punch’s) problem. It is the media that has cradled and fostered this fledgling phenomenon for fun and profit, but it wasn’t ever thus. There used to be some responsibility, some discretion, some decorum accompanying pugnaciousness, but now all restraint, propriety and humility has been cast aside in the ‘quest for ratings’.

      Certainly, there’s always been crass and crappy media, vitriolic debate and bigoted crusading, but it was never the mainstream, now it seems to be the only stream. Even Mark Kenny, one of the less discourteous Punch pundits, like his colleagues, tries to paint the same cliched and tiresome picture of a mythical hysterical “left” railing against the excesses of a fantastical malevolent “right”. I doubt any political landscape anywhere in the entire history of earth has ever been that simplistic, but it’s certainly not so today — even “left” and “right” sound like archaic descriptors applicable only to Bugs Bunny and Snidely Whiplash. Why do senior journalists still talk in such inane terms?

      That this sort of article is the norm in all media across Australia is perhaps an indication of the paucity of intellectual panache here. Very few readers are so dopey as to believe there’s a causal link between ‘atrocities and robust discussion’, yet we have this caveat declaimed once again in this article. Why does that need to be gratuitously stated over and over? Is the flock here so easily led astray and dumb that they need preachers repeatedly delivering the same sermon for it to get through?

      Maybe so. Maybe the debate has been commandeered by such cretinous participants, maybe it has sunk that low. Maybe that IS the audience.

      Wherever it’s at just now, though, it was led there by a duplicitous coalition of media and politics — trading favours, keeping confidences, pandering to each others’ egos, entrenching each others’ position… but betraying the public interest. It’s a very cosy if debauched arrangement and I think it may explain the inordinately high level of hostility from all sides directed toward the Greens — they threaten to prick the bubble of complacency challenging the comfy status-quo.

      If any media types are serious about re-civilising public debate, they should realise it’s entirely up to them — they own the venue and host and moderate the debate — except I reckon they’re too content with the way things are at the moment. All they have to do is let loose their dogs of bigotry and watch their tills spin over — the contemporary shorthand for the ploy is “divide the nation and multiply the ratings”. But, it’s as ancient as Machiavelli and it’s quite disheartening to see it has become a near universal formula for Australian media and it’s heartbreaking to realise that there doesn’t appear to be a single media outlet here imaginative or courageous enough to climb out of that cesspit.

    • Kipling says:

      03:58pm | 07/08/11

      Awesome post.
      Without doubt the most coherently articulated, accurate and (disturbingly) balanced piece that I have read on this site (or many others for that matter) to date. I say disturbingly in brakets because I kept waiting for the one side or other attack, kind of says it all about the standard of debate really….

    • Cleitus says:

      10:08am | 06/08/11

      I don’t seem to remember there being too many concerns about the level and tone of public debate during the Howard government. It seems to me that level and tone is only a concern for many commentators when their team is in power.

    • the nothing bloke's free speech says:

      10:13am | 06/08/11

      when free speech is given out about the free world for free, then free speech can be free of substance about the free world or be priceless for the free world.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:32am | 06/08/11

      But the psychos who lead the Liberal Party don’t want Malcolm Turnbull to exercise his right to free speech. They’d rather he just shut up and go away…...

    • nossy says:

      12:07pm | 06/08/11

      @Shane From Melbourne   - Abbott leads his band of rabble by fear Shane - but Turnbull will triumph. Come election time the voters will pull back from Abbott at the last moment as they did in 2010 and hey presto cue Turnbull. In the meantime Shane just continue to be as disgusted with Abbott as I am - I tried to like him but theres nothing to like - nothing at all!

    • Laila says:

      12:15pm | 06/08/11

      As oppossed to the “psychos” who lead the Labor and Greens parties who don’t want anybody to exercise their right to free speech unless it agrees with their opinions. We should all just do what we are told according to them.

    • pj says:

      11:27am | 06/08/11

      THE WORLD IS A DANGEROUS PLACE NOT BECAUSE OF PEOPLE WHO DO EVIL,BUT BECAUSE OF GOOD PEOPLE WHO LOOK ON AND DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.
      - Albert Einstein

    • Gregg says:

      11:36am | 06/08/11

      Hi Mark,
      Hope you have a fine Saturday and you started with quite an enlightening article
      ” The suggestion from some on the Left that merely by questioning policies such as multiculturalism, radio personalities promote the violent acts of extremists, is absurd. And to use such tragedies to stifle discussion is nakedly opportunistic. “
      is very good except for the fact that the suggestion may not be quite so absurd for it may be that some shock jocks and their followers could be the straw or the tipping point, the catalyst of an extremey or just a plain nutter that has them more than just thinking of something horrific.
      In many cases it may be that they are just going to do something anyway and it is not as if we’ll ever really know.

      That does bring me to other sensible comments:
      ” But in practice the jewel of free speech comes with strings attached. As with many rights it has to be mediated against the greater good. “
      ” This should not be a matter of law but of civics - and dare I say - of common sense. “

      And all could be civilly so well done you could say.
      But then in your typically politicised way you cannot really help yourself for after some filling you get to talk of retired politicians views, lack of bipartisan support which is not so true as there being support for doing some things in different ways, what politics is all about but you proceed with your own polarisation and political attack with:
      ” On the Left however, there is a sense that Mr Abbott’s unbending adversarialism has licensed a new sense of anger in talk-backland and that this has given others permission to become ever-more shrill and offensive. “
      So you would have us believe the outrage against a very poorly performing government is all Tony Abbott’s doing!
      Or is this just more attack for attack’s sake to cheer on your lefties?
      So just what is your measuring of ” Certainly Mr Abbott prefers to chat to his cheerleaders on commercial radio over the less sycophantic scrutiny of the national press gallery. ”  and of course we should make valid comparisons.

      Your analogy to road use finishes with:
      ” Which is where the call for a return to less heated and more respectful public discussion has merit.
      Those in positions of influence who show disrespect for example to the office of prime minister,.........
      This goes to recent well-known examples of radio demagogues treating Julia Gillard with scant regard in interviews and then railing to their complicit audience that she is a liar and should be dumped at sea in a bag. And it goes too to the disrespect shown to scientists in the carbon debate. “

      Do you not think the PM could do a great deal herself in the respect stakes?, like desist from personal abuse - ” Mr Rabbit , Dr No , ho ho!, what else would you expect from the liberals etc. etc. ”

      ” Yes this is free speech but it is also abuse. Exploiting discontent and seething victimhood may lift their own ratings but they diminish the whole and weaken the fabric of society. “

      And so yes the government is pretty good at that too Mark and so you could say you have finished on a fine note, even if I portray it not the way you intended.

    • Chris L says:

      02:29pm | 06/08/11

      I perceive the discourse to be less one sided. When I see a blogger posting the failures of the present government I often stop reading when they include the BER or the insulation scheme. This may be accredited to bias but I do regard both of these as good ideas. The BER being rated a success by all reports and the insulation scheme failing through dodgy business owners rather than a lack of policy.

      My point being that much of the criticism of the current administration is valid, but gets lost when mixed in with undue criticism over points that should actually stand in the administration’s favour.

      The failure of free speech is that people become lazy and throw aimless accusations that would have merit if directed toward real targets (such as your opposition towards current refugee policy, which I have come to agree with).

      I think both sides of the divide need to clean up their act.

    • Martin says:

      12:07pm | 06/08/11

      We have the Canberra journo’s running with this Malcolm Turnbull rant, hoping to drive a wedge into the Liberal party in an attempt to take the heat of the useless Labor party. It is that simple.“Divide and Conquer” as they say. We’ve also had health reform, fast trains, Tony Blair,, calls for a media inquiry, gee anything but talk about the Carbon Tax.  It is just so see through.

    • Martin Hopes says:

      01:52pm | 06/08/11

      @ Martin - You say “journo’s running with this Malcolm Turnbull rant” - This was not a rant from Turnbull, it is the likes of Minchin and people of your ilk that are trying to describe it as a rant, even the author of this article described it as benign.

      “Mr Turnbull drew a withering put-down yesterday merely for observing that small-L liberals have a place in his party and that elections are won in the centre. That such a benign and sensible observation was seen as inflammatory by his chief destroyer, the retired Nick Minchin, says much about the rawness of political culture at present”

      Malcolm Turnbull makes a valid point and you accuse him of ranting, and then you have the hide to suggest that is the “journo’s” who are trying to drive a wedge into the Liberal party….Do you not believe that Nick Minchin’s uncalled for response was not the catalyst for a bigger wedge?

    • Martin says:

      03:35pm | 06/08/11

      @Martin Hopes. You are a clown aren’t you. I’m not talking about what Malcom Turnbull said, I’m talking about journo’s and others attempting to use Malcolm Turnbull and his supposed leadership aspirations as a subject of diversion from Labors woes. Being a crusted on Labor nong, your brain is wired to only read things a certain way, fair dinkum ” I accuse Malcolm Turnbull of ranting”  hardly. BTW, I think Malcolm Turnbull is the smartest bloke down in Canberra and would an astoundingly good PM. The problem is the public doesn’t seem to warm to him because they perceive him to be aloof or too wealthy or some other nonsense. Watched him give that speech down in Canberra the other day on the NBN. Incredibly impressive. Compared to the cattle we have running the place presently, there simply is no comparison, a fact that I would think all Labor people would be well aware of.

    • Bho Ghan-Pryde says:

      01:14pm | 06/08/11

      What a simpleton like me cannot figure out with this Turnbull thing is all those people who say they would vote coalition if he was leader - where were they when he was leader and the polls had the coalition on a hiding to nothing? That changed when Abbott took over and scrapped the dodgy climate policy and then got rid of Rudd. Malcolm must be the most popular ALP leader in the liberal party.
      Of course, Malcolm is really a party of one and always has been. There is nothing wrong with that, but why would you want him as the leader of your party? He will continue to rattle around the coalition tent hoping to knock something over without anyone seeing and desperately hoping Tony’s fantastic poll numbers go south because of it – bit like the naughty kid jealous the others got the awards for their work and risk and so tries to “accidently” knock something over at the showing. No one wishes Julia better in the polls than Malcolm.

    • Gregg says:

      09:47pm | 06/08/11

      @BPG
      Well, you’ve kind of nailed it a bit re Malcolm himself for he is not backward in presenting his own views and that is somewhat the strength and one of the weaknesses of the coalition for it does mean that different views can be aired more publicly and that will lead to a much broader assessment, often with a far broader input of views.
      It also allows Labor to use their wedge tactics but that in itself just displays one of their greatest weaknesses and that’s ” we’re all toeing the party line ” and that may work fine when you have a huge majority but not so well for them right now.

      As for ” with this Turnbull thing is all those people who say they would vote coalition if he was leader - where were they when he was leader and the polls had the coalition on a hiding to nothing? “
      Quite possibly a lot were Laborites in Coaltion fur and animals as they are, you could have considerable burrowing going on now for Labor are very fearful of someone like Tony Abbott, not your perfect politician and one who could probably get some policies improved with better advice but he is what you see is what you’ll get and prepared to put himself out there telling it how he sees it and Australians like that and are warming to him more and more

    • Grant says:

      03:36pm | 06/08/11

      All forms of free speech is acceptable, regardless of what you or I think of that speech.

      We should never legislate against being offended.

      If you believe that something offends you and that the offending speech should be shut down.  Then you must stay true to your belief and legislate all speech, including your own.

    • Billy B says:

      04:01pm | 06/08/11

      Shane from Melbourne - I guess you didn’t have a mortgate when Paul Keating was in power.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:13pm | 06/08/11

      The last two decades of prosperity that Australia has had has largely come from the reforms and deregulation implemented by Paul Keating and yeah, I’d take four or five years of hardship in return for a couple decades of prosperity. Didn’t see Howard, Rudd or Gillard making the hard decisions….

    • RyaN says:

      04:13pm | 06/08/11

      Fact is, no matter how you spin it Mark, the left hate freedom!

    • Paul says:

      04:46pm | 06/08/11

      Let’s play the ball (policy, facts, etc) and not the man (insults, denigrations, etc)

    • Larisa says:

      09:37pm | 06/08/11

      I can’t believe someone can defend this pathetic, manipulating liar, every time she, Cambet or Swan open their mouths another obvious lie coming out, when whole world’s economy about to collapse she is playing Russian roulette with our economy.  People must be blind, deft or just simply stupid

    • Greg says:

      09:55pm | 06/08/11

      We either have free speech or we don’t, just like, to use an over-used cliche, somebody can’t be partially pregnant.

      Currently we don"t have free speech. We are not even close.

      Well that’s true for most of us anyway, apart from the superior parliamentary privilege rights our politicians have given themselves.

      There should be no limitations on free speech, not even the “shouting fire in a crowded theatre” scenario that usually gets mentioned.

      Of course, rights should always come with responsibilities. People who listen to free speech have a responsibility to evaluate the credibility of the speaker and the supporting evidence: has he falsely shouted “fire” before? Is there smoke? Are there flames?

      Passing laws against shouting “fire” in theatres will prove disastrous when there really is a fire, and nobody can be warned.

      And one of the most common tactics for suppressing free speech and disenfranchising people is to call for “bipartisanship”. Calling for Turnbull to lead the Liberal party or a return to more “moderate”  policies is effectively the same thing.

      Nobody really wants bipartisanship for its own sake. Ever. They can have bipartisanship whenever they want by agreeing with their opponents, but they just want their opponents to agree with them.

      And any suggestion to “allow” free speech subject to restrictions on “offensive” speech is just idiotic. Who decides exactly what is offensive and what isn’t? And who appoints them to their job? And who hears the appeals to their judgements? And who appoints the appeal judges?

      What is and is not offensive is extremely subjective.

      Do Big Media journalists really think that we are so stupid that we cannot see through this transparent propaganda? Just like we are not supposed to notice that everybody who insists that the ABC and SBS are impartial just happen to be left wingers?

      I also wonder what spin the media will put on the downgraded credit rating on the USA, by the apolitical financial analysts Standard & Poors. I mean, didn’t the media tell us all that those “Tea Party extremists” forced Obama to accept “draconian” spending cuts in order to raise the debt ceiling again? Now S&P are saying that the austerity measures are not sufficient, let alone too much. How does that work?

    • Kipling says:

      04:14pm | 07/08/11

      Interestingly enough Greg, we don’t have free speech in this country due to our predominantly right wing media. Isn’t it ironic that you mention the ABC and SBS. Conversely to your point, we apparently not meant to notice that it everybody who insists the ABC and SBS are left biased and that our MSM is the most accurate are right whingers… Sorry did I say whinger? Perhaps I should say winger…. Perhaps.
      You say that rights have responsibilities, I agree, however, the enforcing of resonsibilities attached to free speech are going to be derided as an attack on free speech. Just ask Andrew Bolt who moaned long and loud when sued over something he wrote. In FACT, he still cannot help but mention it in recent blogs…. “I can’t talk about this, but the photo says it all” (I will leave it to readers to imagine, work out or guess what Mr Bolt was talking about)...
      I don’t mind you waxing lyrical about restrictions to our ability to express our opinions freely without fear of persecution or censorship, however, when you are going to only express a one eyed ideological view point on this then you do not defend free speech, you defend one ideology over the other. This is fine, but please be honest and do not try dressing it up as defending free speech.
      The ABC may not be “balanced” per se, however, it does very clearly present both sides creating some semblence of balance. This seemingly infuriates those on the right who appear to just want one simple and clear message (namely, their message) presented as the entire sum total of facts. Whilst it might put a nice rosey glow on their world view it in no way represents, supports or promotes free speech.

    • Greg says:

      12:52am | 08/08/11

      Kipling, I realise that you are probably just having a laugh by posting such nonsense, but I am prepared to humour you.

      As far as the ABC and SBS are concerned, they believe that impartiality is displayed by critising both the Coalition and the ALP for being too “right wing”. They are nothing less than far left,  neo-communist workers’collectives, completely devoid of any political balance.

      But I suppose that they make the Fairfax media look almost balanced in comparison.

      As for the allegedly right wing Murdoch media (according to leftists), then explain why subsidiaries such as The Punch are always posting articles in favour of illegal immigrants and global warming by sympathetic journalists? Or posting articles such as the one that we are giving feedback on, by a left winger who wants to restrict the speech that he considers to be offensive.

      Of course the main difference is that nobody has to support Fairfax or Murdoch if they are not so inclined. But all taxpayers are forced to support the ABC and SBS propaganda.

      You have also completely misunderstood the proper assignment of responsibilities for free speech. They belong to the listeners, not the speakers. Blaming a speaker for inciting some sort of criminal behaviour in others is nonsence, and refuses to attribute blame where it belongs.

      Or is the left now supporting the “just following orders” justification for criminal behaviour?

      As for Andrew Bolt, yes, he is a classic example of the restrictions on free speech, despite his membership of the alleged “right-wing media”.

      When has a left wing journalist ever been sued for publishing their opinions in this country? When has Andrew Bolt ever been broadcast by the ABC or SBS?

      I support free speech for everybody, and for left wing and right wing opinions. But expressing left wing opinion is not under threat. On the contrary, it is the inability of the left to sustain any sort of reasoned argument that results in them trying to censure opposing opinions.

      And in any case, free speech cannot be restricted by the media. The media can amplify some opinions and ignore others, but only the government can restrict free speech and criminalise opposing opinions.

      It does this through legislation like the racial, religious etc vilification acts. Or sometimes, as recently proposed by the Greens, it can threaten legislation against particular viewpoints.

      And that’s the truth, which cannot be successfully denied, because it is self evident.

    • Kipling says:

      09:16am | 08/08/11

      Greg, responsibility is a mutual obligation. As such, ALL individuals need to accept responsibility for themselves, both what they say and what they do. The big problem is that we have en masse rapidly moved away from personal responsibility in favour of blame (Right v Left is a classic example, or if you like Left v Right, just to be balanced). In fact, nowhere have I in any way actually blamed anyone or for that matter excused anyone. Here in lieth the conundrum.
      As to Bolt, ironically he was very adequately defended by a young journalist from the ABC who spoke up about Bolt’s right to free speech. This (apparent) rampant lefty was seemingly trying to let Bolt off the hook of being responsible for what he said. Further, the people who sued Bolt took appropriate responsible action in response to that which he had said (written actually). They also took the risk that the court might not see it their way. Can’t be fairer than that.

    • Greg says:

      12:06am | 09/08/11

      Kipling, if somebody makes a statement that is deliberately misleading or untrue, then the consequence will be damage to their own reputation and credibility. They will marginalise themselves. People with opposing opinions will also have the right to criticise them. There is no need for the state to get involved at all.

      As for Bolt, he should not need some leftist journalist to defend his right of free speech. Free speech should not be dependent upon approval from left wing journalists, that is the whole point.

      Bolt does not need to be “let off the hook”, because he should not be on the hook in the first place. There was nothing wrong with what he wrote.

      The people who sued Bolt have nothing to lose. They took no risks. Even if they lose the case against him, as they should, they have still managed to suppress his free speech for years already. They also have instilled uncertainty into others who are now unsure about what they are allowed to say.

      It is entirely unfair.

      Just imagine a world where it was illegal to criticise white people, but everybody else was fair game. Would you think that that was OK?

    • Kipling says:

      07:45am | 09/08/11

      Not so Greg, clearly the person’s reputation does not depend on their truth or accuracy but who agrees with their ideological position. Truth has been disposed of conveniently; I think the word is SPIN… But don’t let that get in the way of your argument.
      Bolt did not need “some leftist journalist to defend him”, however, the point, seemingly overlooked was that a journalist who is reputedly (according to the Right at least) a lefty wrote a lengthy (and somewhat missing the point too) piece about Bolt’s right to free speech.
      It is a misnomer that Bolt’s right to free speech was in anyway under threat. He could, and in point of fact, still does make comment. He still comments about the same subject matter, albeit he makes the point that he can’t, whilst doing so. A perfect case in point that truth and his reputation etc are not even related in anyway shape or form.
      You clearly defend him, yet it has been demonstrated time and again where Bolt has been at best a bit loose with the truth and, at worst, deliberately left out key information, thus changing the context of information entirely. That is, in effect lying.
      Freedom of speech has consequences and responsibilities, both for the listener and for the speaker/writer. It aint rocket science.
      It seems fairly evident that those who see the application of responsibility for expressing one’s view for the main part want to be able to spew forth whatever bile they like, yet are clearly not willing to allow either those they target or those who disagree the same carte blanche approach to debate.
      I suspect I don’t have to imagine for too long, if some have their way that is the world one would be living in….

    • Greg says:

      10:58pm | 09/08/11

      Absolute nonsense Kipling.  Clearly a person’s reputation does depend on their truthfulness, regardless of their ideological position.
      Just ask Julia Gillard, whose reputation has been destroyed even amongst ALP voters due to her pre-election lies about not introducing a carbon tax.

      Similarly Malcolm Turnbull has a reputation for distorting the truth in order to satisfy his own personal self-interests, which is why so many Coalition voters despise him.

      What exactly is your point about a lefty journalist defending Bolt’s right to free speech? Are you so surprised that there is the occasional exception to the rule, and that a lefty would be right about something?

      The most obvious point is that the overwhelming majority of leftists were happy to restrict Bolt’s right to free speech, not because he said anything untrue, but just because they didn’t like what he wrote.

      And Bolt remains restricted from writing about the lawsuit that he was subjected to, at least until a judgement is delivered, and possibly thereafter too.  He can’t write to defend himself, or to explain why he wrote what he wrote. He can’t comment on any of the lawsuit applicants, or the prosecutor, or the judge, or the relevant legislation that he was sued under.

      Bolt’s free speech is not ”under threat”, it is already actively suppressed and restricted.

      Unless you can read Bolt’s mind, you cannot know if he has deliberately left out information in order to mislead people. But it seems extremely unlikely. He is scrutinised more than any other writer in the country, and unlike any leftist writer in the Australian media, he makes updates and corrections if he has made a factual error or mistake.

      But that’s all besides the point. Even if everything he wrote was wrong, he should still be allowed to write it, just like leftists can write any misleading nonsense that they want.

      And once again, I have always said that free speech covers the right for ANYBODY to say whatever they want, no matter how offensive some sensitive souls may find it.

    • Kipling says:

      08:45am | 10/08/11

      Your opening salvo in response to my last post Greg was wide of the mark due to its misrepresenting that which I said. Was the “absolute nonsense” comment preemtive of what was to follow? If so, thanks for the heads up, however, one could work that out by simple review of what was actually stated.
      Will that have any impact on your reputation though?
      I realise I could be wrong regarding legal matters, however, I don’t think ANYONE is lawfully aloud to comment about matters currently before the court involving them. Particularly in such a fashion that offers absolutely no right of reply. Yet despite this, as pointed out, Bolt still makes comment, albeit indirectly… Still no reputation issue to his sworn sychophants.
      Bolt has adequate opportunity to defend himself in the very court where the matter will be heard as is appropriate in our society at present.
      The point about the leftist journalist is a fairly simple one really, it is demonstrative of the ABC lending a voice to both ideological sides. Clearly though this is lost on you.
      I also agree that Bolt should be allowed to write what he wishes to. Where our opinions obviously diverge is that I am of the opinion that people should accept the responsibility for themselves and accountability. That is for ALL people.
      Once again though, thanks for the heads up regarding absolute nonsense.

    • Greg says:

      12:20am | 11/08/11

      Kipling, my response was succinct and spot on, even if I say so myself. I contradicted your ridiculous assertion that a person’s reputation does not depend on them telling the truth, and only depends on their ideology, by giving a couple of examples to clearly prove you wrong.

      I did not misrepresent you. I responded precisely in terms of what you wrote. If you intended to make some other point, well, I can’t be blamed for your being inarticulate. You will just have to cope with it as best as you can manage. It’s not my job to hold your hand.

      Having a tantrum might make you feel better, but it does your argument no good at all. Meanwhile, I am quite comfortable with my reputation being judged by what I write.

      As for the the restrictions on Bolt’s speech as imposed by the lawsuit, you have missed the point. Once again.

      The point is that the lawsuit has been used to restrict his free speech. The fact that lawsuits are used to restrict other people’s free speech as well just emphasises the point. It proves that it is not some unusual situation.

      He cannot write or say what he wants on the subject. Even if I allowed (or is that aloud?) your assertion that he still indirectly makes comments in defiance of the law, being forced to make indirect comments is still a restriction on being able to speak freely.

      Also, having free speech restricted to a law court is another restriction on free speech.

      Free speech is the right to say whatever you want, wherever and whenever you want. No ifs or buts or exceptions. It really isn’t that difficult to understand. If free speech is subject to certain responsibilities or accountabilities to the state or anybody else, then it is not free speech.

      And furthermore, Bolt has told no lies, so why should his reputation suffer?

      If your alleged point about the leftist journalist is that it is demonstrative of the ABC lending a voice to both ideological sides, then you are wrong again. It demonstrates no such thing.

      Free speech has no ideological sides. Speech can be left wing or right wing. Nazis and Communists have both suppressed free speech.

      There is a world of difference between agreeing with free speech in principle and broadcasting it in practice. Bolt is never given a voice on any taxpayer funded media, yet he is often criticised on it, and given no right of reply.

      As an unqualified supporter of free speech, I am quite happy to respond to any further diatribes that you may decide to write. But it would be nice if you could manage to make a point occasionally, or construct some basic argument that displays some level of reasoned thought.

    • stan says:

      10:32pm | 06/08/11

      Mark Kenny was shown up by Monckton at the press club for for being the complete left wing toady and halfwit that he is

    • wearestardust says:

      01:29pm | 08/08/11

      Free speech must include the right to offend.  Absolutely correct.  It is a shame that journalists and commentators keep insisting on this seem to forget that it cuts both ways.

      By all means, say what you want, how you want.  But if want to offend, others have the right to insist that they are offended and say so.  This is not censorship.  Neither is it censorship to point out that certain comment of media coverage is unbalanced, factually incorrect, inconsistent, apologetic, sensationalist, or putting a view that anyone with an alternative viewpoint is an enemy of society.

      It seems to me that the most ‘censorious’ people at the moment, to use the phrase beloved of Brendan O’Neill, are journalists and commentators who want to insist on saying whatever they like while being immune from challenge.

      I fail to see how it is “censorious” simply to note that public debate through the media is in a doldrums of utter disinterest in facts or balance, and ask that the game be lifted.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Daniel Piotrowski

@ToryShepherd there's always time for Din Tai Fung.

ToryShepherd

@drpiotrowski will be there just in time for Din Tai Fung

Daniel Piotrowski

@ToryShepherd I hope that's in your piece tomorrow. Also - are you coming over this week or laaaaaater?

ToryShepherd

@drpiotrowski yes, Snowtown Abbey should be given an entirely segregated feed...

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Deep down we’re all unionists, even the haters

Deep down we’re all unionists, even the haters

Bill Kelty made a memorable speech last week. Addressing the ACTU Congress Dinner in Sydney, the legendary…

Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia…

Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia…

Speaking of yourself in the third person is usually a sign that you’re suffering from delusions…

South Australia. It’s the middle bottom bit.

South Australia. It’s the middle bottom bit.

If South Australia had just arrived in the world, red and wrinkled and mewling, what would we call it?…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

241 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter