How much would you pay for 12 megabits per second?

Bobster says:

01:38pm | 20/12/10

I’ve got 12 megabits a second - so do most of you - and I pay about $100 per month with my landline telephone bundled in.

You journos know there is a website that will convert megabits to megabytes so you can actually work out what this means, don’t you?

FYI, eight bits in a byte, so 12 megabits per second equals about 1.5 megabytes per second (roughly the peak speed of ADSL2+ in good conditions)

That was an easy one.

TheRealDave says:

02:06pm | 20/12/10

WTF?!

I think your calculator is broken Bob.

What speed are you? says:

02:16pm | 20/12/10

Bobster

You are not getting 12 megabits per second.
That’s what your plan says (up to 12 Mbps)
your actual speed would probably be 4 to 8 Mbps or less than that depending on the distance from the exchange; Internet traffic congestion; the quality of your copper line and the speed of the websites you are visiting.
check it out and tell me what speed you get back

http://www.speedtest.net/

Jabba says:

02:21pm | 20/12/10

Umm, no. 12 megabits is 1.5 megabytes, no ifs or buts.

Bobster says:

02:37pm | 20/12/10

No, I’m definitely getting 12 megabits and 1.5megabytes per second is what my connection winds out at - it’s made it up that high at least twice.

And, I’d check your calculator if I was you.

TheRealDave says:

02:41pm | 20/12/10

If you have a 12mb connection you’ll be hitting a peak download speed of around 1200Kb per sec.

If you had, or are still stuck on, an archaic 1.5Mb connection you are downloading at around 150kb per sec

Just a slight improvement.

wally the worker says:

03:06pm | 20/12/10

If you wan’t that speed you’ll need a licensed cabler to install 1000BASE-SX or Cat 5E or 6 inside your home.

Ben (the other one) says:

03:18pm | 20/12/10

Leto, are you trolling?

What speed are you? says:

04:02pm | 20/12/10

Bobster
So what did the speed test tell you?

Bobster says:

04:13pm | 20/12/10

As I’m at work, whatever speed test has to tell me is largely irrelevant.

I’m sure work’s proxy server is plenty good enough for its needs.

And anyway, I don’t need speed test. Watching the download bar is quite quantifiable. My record is still in the neighbourhood of 1.3 - .1.5 megabytes per second (or circa 12 megabits).

Now, nerd off.

Christian Real says:

05:19pm | 20/12/10

Bring on the NBN,we are on wireless broadband at the moment.
Telstra is charging us over $100 a month for 10 mbps, $38 for a 100 mbps would be a Godsend.

Matt says:

10:01pm | 20/12/10

@Christian Real, you do realise that’s wholesale pricing, don’t you? Not to mention 10 years away.

Northern Steve says:

11:22pm | 20/12/10

Christian, if you can’t get ADSL at the moment, what makes you think that you will get FTTH in the NBN?  You’ll still be stuck on wireless, I reckon.
I guess you’ll find out sometime in the next 9 years.

Aaron says:

01:41am | 21/12/10

I think the confusion here is that a megabit IS NOT THE SAME as a mb (megaBYTE). It is common to get 1-1.5 MegaBYTES per second (mbps) these days.

Bobster says:

10:02am | 21/12/10

Conversion to megabytes per second would probably inform this argument a great deal more than the obsession with megabits though.

I know they’re different measures but the end result for the user is megabytes per second, and a 12 megabit connection will deliver 1.5 megabytes in a second at its peak.

Richo says:

10:35am | 21/12/10

pffft i already get around 12Mbps and pay $49.95 p/month with 100GB download quota from iinet. At work, due to the the distance from the exchange, I get the full 24Mbps for $49.95 p/month. No download quotas listed here for the NBN, the retail pricing will suck and so does LABOR.

Stephen Fitzpatrick says:

01:17pm | 21/12/10

Richo, if you took the time to look at iiNet’s website, you’d see that for the same money you pay now for 12mbps ($49.95) and $100 quota, the NBN plan will give you 200 gig quota and 25 mbps.

Something sucks but it’s not Labor or the NBN.

People need to realise that the NBN is being built for the future, whether or not 12mbps is “fast enough” now is irelevant. In 30 years time there will be no TV broadcast, everything you watch will streamed to your TV over the net on demand, and you’ll be thankfull that we had the guts to see a project this large through to the end.

Jim says:

10:45am | 22/12/10

At my NBN connected workplace in Tasmania Speed test gave me 90.99 Mbps. Was happy with that. Having said that, so many firewalls and programs running in the background continualy all using the connection, that I’m lucky to get even average speeds.

Jason says:

05:24pm | 25/12/10

The bottleneck is downstream anyway… dunno why it’s so hard for the technoplebs to understand that.  I need to download several torrents or large http downloads at once to max my connection.  (ps I get 20mbit for under $100 with free local calls and a ping of 11ms to my ISP, which as a gamer counts more than bps)

JK says:

03:08pm | 20/12/10

Oh no it might blow out, I’m so scared!

Brett says:

03:21pm | 20/12/10

JK you should be scared.  Unless you’re still living at home with Mummy and Daddy and don’t have to worry about nasty things like taxes.

Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

03:23pm | 20/12/10

After the insullation & schools fiasco you’d trust this lot to get it right? ?

KZ says:

08:12pm | 20/12/10

Yes, because it’s run not directly run by the government goons, it’s done by experts in their field who work for the NBN Co.

Kirk says:

03:12pm | 20/12/10

You’re right, if the Liberals were to build it they would have totally different companies tender for the contract - because there are so many companies that can build this project - and they’d put in much more trustworthy executives and managers.  Because the Liberals are great at managing things and Labor is terrible at managing things - always.  Like that schools debacle, what was it - almost 3% of projects had a complaint against it, and almost 1% of schools had a complaint involving cost or value for money.  Outrageous!

Drew says:

03:28pm | 20/12/10

The Coalition had eleven years and the best economic conditions Australia has ever seen to give us free university tuition, better roads, hospitals and schools. They also had eleven years to maintain the national telecommunications infrastructure and ensure that Australia would continue to have access to state-of-the-art telecommunications into the future. Instead they SOLD our national telectommunications infrastructure and squandered the prceeds on social engineering and electoral bribes like the baby bonus and the private health insurance rebate. Since its election just over three years ago, the Rudd/Gillard government has taken on the massive task of sorting out hospitals and universities that were totally neglected by the previous government. It has provided over ten thousand schools with state-of-the-art new facilities, equipped millions of school children with laptops AND is building a replacement for the national telecommunications network, that has fallen into total disrepair thanks to Howards negligence. It is doing all of this in the context of the worst economic conditions since the Depression. Not bad, when you think of it.

Likes Joining Dots says:

05:48pm | 20/12/10

“the best economic conditions Australia has ever seen to give us free university tuition, better roads, hospitals and schools”

To be honest, I have not yet heard the phrase “give us” as a political slogan.

There is a price to pay, you do realise this Drew?

Craig Mc says:

08:12pm | 20/12/10

:Free university education?

You’re demented Drew.

Northern Steve says:

11:27pm | 20/12/10

Drew, the proceeds of the Telstra sale went into the Future Fund, and went right out as soon as LABOR got into government.  They were the ones who squandered it.
And it was the Coalition who set up a competitive environment for telecommunications, that have seen real term price drops and improved service in telecommunication.  Now we are seeing a reintroduction of a monopoly, which will result in lower service and higher prices - basic economic fact.  if it doesn’t, it will only be because the taxpayer is subsidizing it, so same effect.

Minerette says:

01:14pm | 20/12/10

A bit like the miners going hell bent for leather seriously inflating wages for the mining orcs.

Northern Steve says:

11:28pm | 20/12/10

Which, Minrette, didn’t happen under Work Choices and individual contracts.

Nod says:

03:33pm | 24/12/10

One TV report mentioned they would be short 30,000 cablers/technicians in building the NBN. Demand from the mining industry as well for many of these people makes for interesting times for electrical trades apprentices.

Wireless says:

01:27pm | 20/12/10

Really Mary?

Fibre will be a dodo in ten years?
Fibre can transfer data at 10 G/bps already. The best you can get out of wireless at the moment is 4 - 12 M/bps and if anyone says they can get better speeds than that in the real world, they are liars.

You keep your exorbitantly overpriced intermittent wireless with it’s lack of reliability, speed, and latency.  Put up with the congestion and a wireless system that fails when it rains.

PS lots of the bush will get wireless and partisans like you will still be able to get your overpriced wireless.

Shifter says:

01:31pm | 20/12/10

@Mary - I’ll take wired any day - faster, resilient, even more widespread.

Of course the NBN is today’s technology. There is nothing better available than data transmission over optical fibre. The optical devices involved in transmitting and receiving the light are becoming cheaper, and the throughput for newer devices is becoming greater. We will be using this technology for decades to come as it will provide the backbone for any networks built on top.

From your comments, I think I’d be on the money in deducing that you live in the city, and you use the internet primarily to browse daily websites and email. But that’s today’s or even yesterday’s internet usage and people are moving on and demanding more triple-play services, more bandwidth intense applications like IPTV. Even reliable phone services would be of great benefit.

Lets look at the health aspects as well. The wowsers love bring up the EM fields from high voltage power lines, they are gonna love it when every street corner is pumping out radio waves. I’m not much of a believe in those harmful effects, but many are, and won’t someone please think of the children?

Side note, I work in the communications field, and whilst I’m sure people love to take their internet on the go (see: iPad), I like nothing more than to be totally detached when I’m away from my house.

Ben says:

01:38pm | 20/12/10

I partiall agree with you Mary, though Fibre still has its place, and certainly wont be going the way of the dodo; it is not what the marketplace needs.
    Fibre only requires different NTUs and wholah you can terminate more and more data across a single strand. The only thing holding us back is our understanding of how to code more information into a lambda. Moores law, which dictates that every 5 years, computing power will double, is also applicable to Fibre. Meaning that roughly by the time the NBN is available, the bandwidth available will be roughly 4 times that of what is theoretically available now.

“Wireless” you’re pretty ignorant, you’re comparing 10Gbps (business grade) with retail mum and dad wireless. If you want to play apples with apples, You will find that there are Wireless links on the market that can offer upwards of 750Mbps, and yes, with the right deployments even more. (What I have said about fibre is also applicable here) But thats alright, its ok to be ignorant when your point of view is being toted.

Wireless says:

02:22pm | 20/12/10

ben
You can get 1 Gbps on an NBN fibre.
The standard is being set for 100 Gbps fibre.
What’s your point?

Show us the links - to Wireless on the market that can offer upwards of 750Mbps

Andy says:

03:39pm | 20/12/10

Hi there, I’m a technological luddite with absolutely no idea about technology nor how it can be upgraded, so I thought I’d just pop in here to give my 2 cents worth on a topic on which I have absolutely no professional expertise or credibility.

I’m here to tell you all about how fibre optics will be obsolete in 10 years and replaced with magical fairy transmissions which are transported by owls that fly faster than the speed of light. This will cost taxpayers nothing. Amen.

Woody says:

03:43pm | 20/12/10

Andy
You’re starting to win me back.

Drew says:

03:52pm | 20/12/10

Nevermind that it has taken 40 years for technology like fibre optics or wireless to develop and that they are currently not developing any new technologies. Somehow, they will have created a new technology and have it ready to implement in 10 years.

Andy (actual) says:

03:58pm | 20/12/10

Woody, Nice try.
But, I would never presume to claim myself a luddite in the present company, everyone knows owls can’t fly that fast, and fairy transmissions only work at optimum levels around inner city suburbs, especially Potts Point.
You’re growing on me, too.

Drew says:

04:24pm | 20/12/10

And also never mind that highly technologically advanced countries including Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, The USA, Canada, Sweden, Iceland, France, The Netherlands, China, Brazil and many more have all laid fibre to the home, some of them nationally. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_premises_by_country)

These countries obviously know absolutely nothing about future technology, not like the “expert” forum posters here do.

Grumps says:

04:48pm | 20/12/10

I quite agree…....wireless would be the best way of doing it at a fraction of the cost and no ugly wires stuck on poles.

KZ says:

08:14pm | 20/12/10

When will people understand wireless technology is complementary, it will never meet the needs current or future users.  Unless you can change the law of physics, it will always be complementary.

Bananabender says:

08:34pm | 20/12/10

Wireless says:

01:27pm | 20/12/10

Really Mary?

“Fibre will be a dodo in ten years?

Fibre can transfer data at 10 G/bps already. The best you can get out of wireless at the moment is 4 - 12 M/bps and if anyone says they can get better speeds than that in the real world, they are liars.”

Wireless -you are the liar. 4G wireless is already available in Perth at up to 100Mbits/sec.

5G wireless has already been successfully tested at 12.5Gbits/sec.

The 6G and 7G wireless networks are already being planned.

Within 20 years every region on Earth will have wireless coverage at over 100Gbits/sec.

Northern Steve says:

11:35pm | 20/12/10

@KZ, yes, fibre and wireless are complementary, which is why its nuts to try and use only one of the technologies for the bulk of the population, which is what they are doing with the NBN.  Far better to let market forces help decide what people want, not spend up big and force people onto unwanted fibre

And for Wireless and all the others without Google on their internets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G

4G mobile telephony, about to be rolled out, will be capable of delivering 1GBps, 5G which is in the early R&D stage, will be larger by a significant factor.

Rich says:

06:43am | 21/12/10

@wireless Wrong. NBN itself plans to offer wireless speeds which will make you a liar. also their FSA architecture does not allow 10Gbps to the premises and actually only supports 1 Gbps to a few customers before the equipment will need to be upgraded. Pushing up the cost of the network.

Countries like Vietnam and India are skipping fixed line services and moving straight to wireless.

@drew. I don’t quite get your comment. There are huge advances being made network technology. NSN announced last week a new HSPA variant which would support up to 650Mbps. Huawei have been crowing about their real world LTE trials in Australia.

also, talk of other countries and their fibre deployments is always taken out of context. we don’t have the population densities of Singapore, Japan, Korea or Hong Kong. And the Koreans, Japanese, Chinese all didn’t need a massive handout to build their networks.

Look up KMI in Korea. It’s a brand new ISP. What are they going to launch? wireless of course.

The only reason why the government is running with nbn v2 is because in 2007 they told us they needed to spend 5B to deliver 15mbps. something many of us have. Now we need 100Mbps, strangely Telstra have already delivered 100 Mbps on the same HFC network that NBN is paying Telstra 13.8B to shutdown.

Wireless says:

09:50am | 21/12/10

Show us the links Northern Steve, Bananabender, Rich
Just saying it doesn’t make it so.
You part of the disinformation brigade. Wreckers by spreading falsehoods. Facts boys, not technical ramblings from the technically illiterate.

Rich says:

09:31am | 23/12/10

@wireless

I’m sorry, there might be some big words in these articles

NSN 650Mbps HSPA Variant:

http://gigaom.com/2010/12/15/long-term-hspa-evolution-2013/

Telstra Huawei LTE trials

http://www.cio.com.au/article/371240/telstra_huawei_score_150mbps_over_lte/

Korea KMI:

http://www.koreaninsight.com/2010/09/how-will-kmi-impact-the-telecom-industry-in-korea/

I earn my living architecting national and international telecommunications networks. what do you do for a living?

Bobster says:

01:55pm | 20/12/10

If it’s worth, as my dad would say, a knob of goat shit, then the quotas should be the first thing out the window.

They’re bloody criminal.

MarK says:

02:19pm | 20/12/10

You have no argument from me.

Just answering the question as posed above though. The reality is in Australia we have quotas. Sad but true so we have to factor that in.

Bobster says:

02:40pm | 20/12/10

It’s a shame the whole argument has been railroaded by the wireless-is-the-future/what-was-wrong-with-dialup brigade. Would have been nice if we could have forced that issue.

TheRealDave says:

02:45pm | 20/12/10

@MarK

So after months of espousing the usual anti-NBN shenanigans, after todays announcements all you have is, and I quote: ‘Depends on the quota offered”

Is that it?

???

Are you busy or something??

Busy filling in an application form?? 

MarK says:

04:18pm | 20/12/10

Dave I have repeatedly said I will be the first person to sign up to the NBN in this town when it comes through.

I want faster internet than I have now. I have a use for it.

I also have not “espousing the usual ant-NBN shenanigans”. What I have been doing is putting aside self interest and saying that spending $70 odd billion (we can fight over capex vs opex later) OFF BUDGET for a system the government was saying stood alone on it’s business case was rather shifty given we have not until today seen the business case.

I have also not read the business case which I will do soon and pass comment.

What I can say is this for now, not exhaustive, not all inclusive just some thoughts

- 7% rate of return is crap, no business would invest the size of funds being contemplated here for that return.
- 70% take up rate - well from the Tasmanian trials this seems unlikely
- the cost of telecommunications over time has fallen and is still falling in real terms. I am interested to see if this was factored in
- put it on the budget since it is obviously outside of normal commercial return parameters and looks to produce somewhat less of a rate of return that public utilities that remain government owned would deem low.

So to sum up

Do I want better broadband meaning cheaper faster bigger. Yes please.

Do I think the government should spend billions given me FTTH - nope.

Do I trust this government, in particular, to get within a bulls roar of their forecasts, projections and budget? I give you green loans, cash for clunkers, cost of living websites, electricity prices, health debacle, BER, BATTS, MTRS and the ETS just to name a few great feats of modern bureaucratical incompetence to back up my assertion that these guys could not find porn on the internet with Shane Warnes credit card.

I hope I have been clear. MarK wants the “NBN” or something like it. MarK thinks we are getting a gold plated version that will cost in excess of what is promised and be delivered poorly.

Notice how I answered the question as posed. Let us have fun with all the stuff tomorrow.

grumpy old man says:

02:54pm | 20/12/10

the wholesale price for a 12/1 Mbps is public, $24, but to get this to retail you need add backhaul from the POI to your suppliers switch, then the internet, and then some profit for the supplier. I’d guess $48 for 12/1, with who knows how much internet capacity. If you want IPTV etc, then add more. Note that 12/1 is pretty much useless for businesses, medical, etc. Not enough upload capacity.
I don’t understand why when NBN is deploying a synchronous service, they are selling an asynchronous service?

Craig Mc says:

08:18pm | 20/12/10

Yep, that’s about my limit too.  150GB & a VOIP# for $70/month.  I had better not pay a cent more for NBN - via retail or the tax bill.

Craig Mc says:

10:46pm | 20/12/10

BTW, that’s for Naked ADSL2+ - line rental included.

The Badger says:

02:00pm | 20/12/10

Choose another plan if you destroy 40GB in 56 minutes, what are you a space agency?

Shifter says:

02:08pm | 20/12/10

@ N - I’d imagine once the take-up gets going you’ll see ISPs provide a large amount of un-metered content, much like Bigpond and iiNet do.

You have to realise that the NBN is not going to make international bandwidth more ubiquitous or cheaper, hence the cost of this will remain fairly constant for ISPs. What will happen is that more content will be placed ‘on-shore’ and be available across peered NBN links. This should where the media / comms / tele-working / etc. will fall in and thus not count to the 40GB quota.

For examples of this, see any Australian VoIP phone provider, and iiNet’s Fetch TV. With this in mind, 40GB of international quota becomes quite reasonable per month if it is only http traffic.

N says:

02:33pm | 20/12/10

Not at all, just pointing out a seemingly obvious flaw in the NBN at this point; you’ve given end users a rather large bandwidth pipe, and then capped it with minuscule data allowances in comparison.  The government has been banding that this is the ‘wave of the future’ for streaming media content, high definition video and video conferencing.

So you want to watch a 60 minute HD documentary on your new NBN connection;
HD video runs between 4-9Mbps (for the sake of the argument let’s assume 7Mbps as a good middle ground).
3600 seconds of media @ 7Mbits = 3.15GB of data.

Given this is marketed as a ‘family’ plan at $89.95 per month, I’d say a typical family would tear a 40GB cap apart in no time at all, especially when many family homes share an internet feed internally.

Shifter says:

03:11pm | 20/12/10

@N - The seemingly obvious flaw has been around since quotas existed. Back in the day Telstra had a 512kbps service with a 100MB quota. The ISP industry knows this and have marketed super low quota plans at light users. And there will always be light users.

Chances are if you were watching said 60 minute HD documentary you probably wouldn’t be doing it from an international source. You wouldn’t get the available bandwidth to stream that fast for the entire period. Youtube has some pretty decent compression and local mirrors, and I’ve still not see many connections in the wild that can sustain their 720p video streams.

As another real world example, the rest of my family, two parents and a 19 year old sister have a 19Mbit ADSL2 connection (yes the lucky bastards live almost right on an exchange). I’d imagine them to be typical users, not into the latest things, and they happily exist on a 7 gig quota.

Craig Mc says:

10:45pm | 20/12/10

Holy crap, the iPrimus pricing is horrific!  Even the Internode pricing would come out at least $20/month more than I pay now.

Telstra-uck says:

04:28pm | 20/12/10

We have a limit, because in the beginning, we had Telstra. And there was no other.
All points terminate in a Telstra bunker and they control the levers.
When the government is the wholesaler, the game changes.

Bitten says:

01:21pm | 20/12/10

You might not need it that quickly but come on - it’s not about your needs Elphaba. It’s about what you want. You want it that quickly, go on, we all do

Elphaba says:

01:36pm | 20/12/10

Lol @Bitten, I’m trying to keep my wants and needs separate!  It only leads to a life of excess!

Mmm…. excess…

I likeitthewayitis says:

01:36pm | 20/12/10

4mbps works for you? that great.  Happy surfing.
Just hope your connection doesn’t lag at that crucial moment in your porn video.
By the way, a 24 M/bps ADSL2 connection will typically sync at 4Mbps because of the known properties of copper. In addition this speed will drop as you get further away from the exchange.
This is why no service provider will give you any guarantee as to speeds.

Elphaba says:

01:43pm | 20/12/10

@I likeitthewayitis - don’t let the facts spoil a good joke.

Anyway… yeah.

Sherlock says:

01:56pm | 20/12/10

By the way, a 24 M/bps ADSL2 connection will typically sync at 4Mbps because of the known properties of copper
I likeitthewayitis says: 01:36pm | 20/12/1

And seeing it’s 99% likely that the porn is being streamed form an overseas site then no matter what speed internet connection you have it will only come through as fast as the overseas pipe will allow and even with the new one it’s likely to be less than 4mbs

I likeitthewayitis says:

01:56pm | 20/12/10

Elphaba - if you have facts, please share them

Shifter says:

02:10pm | 20/12/10

@Elphaba - out of interest, how fast does your ADSL router sync?

Why do I ask? My ADSL2+ is not fine, and it has to do with distance from the exchange, something that I can’t overcome without moving with current tech/products available.

MarK says:

02:24pm | 20/12/10

“Just hope your connection doesn’t lag at that crucial moment in your porn video.”

I am intrigued by this.

What exactly is the crucial moment of a porno? Please elaborate.

Bobster says:

04:21pm | 20/12/10

@ MarK, I believe the moment they were referring to is known as the “money shot”. I guess some people like to stay in time.

Levi says:

05:39pm | 20/12/10

Bobster, you have just removed any credibility you have in any of these forums forthwith. What are you about 40 years old and you’re going on about money shots? I guess Labor supporters will always have their porn to download when the NBN is built if nothing else.

Medical applications? What you can’t send a picture of an X-Ray with our current internet arrangements?

Bobster says:

07:57pm | 20/12/10

@ Levi, Huh?

Jacob says:

09:34pm | 20/12/10

@ bobster its obvious the person, levi does not understand a joke.

LoveFest says:

04:52pm | 21/12/10

What about porn in HD? Now that requires some serious bandwidth!

Bananabender says:

08:55pm | 20/12/10

TPG with UNLIMITED downloads is only $60 including line rental.

TheRealDave says:

02:11pm | 20/12/10

Yeah, just like we all had to do with the copper network. Oh, and our power grid…..and our water grid…...

Sorry, you were saying?

Business Owner says:

03:13pm | 20/12/10

I hear people complaining again and again about their tax dollars going to waste on the NBN. Let’s get one thing clear. Your tax dollars aren’t going to waste. Why, do you ask? Simple. Your income tax pays for Social Security (you can rightly complain about your tax dollars supporting dole bludgers) Your GST pays for State infrastructure, same with stamp duty. Please name the tax that YOU pay which will be wasted on this project.

It’s MY tax dollars that will pay for this. Company tax. If I was a mining company, I’d be complaining that the mining tax will be paying for it.

At the end of the day, it comes down to return on investment. As long as the return from the project will outstrip bond returns, I say let’s go for it. If the country will get money back from the project in the long run (and it isn’t mismanaged and goes heaps over budget) then all the other negatives quite simply give way to this vast improvement over current communication infrastructure. What about the benefit to company’s for better (and cheaper, fibre costs a fortune at the moment for corporations) communications technology? What benefits companies will flow into the country’s coffers in, that’s right, company tax.

Are you also going to complain that Telstra was a bad investment for the government? I think it’s seen the benefits over the long term of that investment. Complain all you like about Telstra, it’s returned many billions to the government over the years.

BR says:

04:06pm | 20/12/10

Well given I am a business owner and pay significant company tax I guess we are in the same boat, so once again, I am paying for this.

“At the end of the day, it comes down to return on investment”; it certainly does, which begs the question as to why no private enterprise has decided to go down this path, rather than allow the government to take the lead? I mean, if it posses such a brilliant ROI, surely an enterprise or even co-op would be poised to do this work themselves?

Might as well start out privatised now, save the government from doing it down the line.

Daylight robbery says:

08:15pm | 20/12/10

Business owner “Please name the tax that YOU pay which will be wasted on this project.”

I dont know, a guess, fibre being laid up the Gibb river road with a fibre life expectancy of 5 years?  It is then expected the farmer will pay the $30000 from the dome to his house?

The big thing with this is upload speeds for video conferencing and application communication.  Once you get outside Australia you hit potential bottlenecks which bring the connection to a grinding halt.

Keep in mind inner CBD precincts have always had fibre next to the fibre trunks.  The NBN is only an expansion of the existing network.
While Howard sold off Telstra we did buy back the infrastructure which is personally disappointing a bit of a waste of public money.
Sure we bought back the copper but its the pipes that which were dug that cost the money in inner suburbia.

Hanging fibre optics on lamp posts sounds like a crazy idea because of its less durability than copper in that place?  With a 5 year life expectancy in the air would mean the fibre be replaced twice by the time the NBN is finished?  Replaced by the time it is sold to the private sector?

Northern Steve says:

11:42pm | 20/12/10

I’d just like to point out to The Real Dave that water and electricity utilities typically provide a return to the government, so we are not paying twice for these items.  This is different with the NBN.  We are paying for the NBN construction from tax dollars, and then paying to use it.

NS nuff says:

09:53am | 21/12/10

Northern Steve
Read what you just wrote again.
You are talking nonsense.

flex says:

02:10pm | 20/12/10

Yeah, and in 10 years time you’ll be using the same logic. I love these circular arguments. Lets not do A because in X years time there will be B which will be better than A - meanwhile the world passes by…

Andy says:

02:26pm | 20/12/10

So by your logic flex, let’s allow a government with a track record of gross incompetence administer a project, the likes, and scale of which this nation has never seen, in order to satisfy some perverse political posturing, without any hint of accountability, or even a reasonably transparent guide as to what might be expected by the time the thing is finished. The “world” should be laughing at our collective stupidity.

TheRealDave says:

02:47pm | 20/12/10

As opposed to EVERY other government we’ve ever had with a record of gross incompetence?

Drew says:

04:07pm | 20/12/10

Posted this elsewhere:

Nevermind that it has taken 40 years for technology like fibre optics or wireless to develop and that they are currently not developing any new technologies. Somehow, they will have created a new technology and have it ready to implement in 10 years.

carson says:

04:33pm | 20/12/10

The last time I heard, Andy, most people were for the NBN, only conservatives are dead against it. As for gross incomptence, don’t believe everything you read in News Limited. Put it this way, I would rather the govt spend my tax dollars on something tangiable that will serve the nation for the next 100 years rather than on things like uneccessary wars or middleclass welfare (i.e. vote buying of which the conservative side of politics under Mr Howard had no peer, though both side are guilty of it).

Shifter says:

02:14pm | 20/12/10

@Kebabpete - “We already have that now and it doesnt cost the tax payer anything.”

The installation of all that copper and phone exchanges wasn’t free mate. There aren’t any magical telecommunications faeries out there who wave a wand and pop a network in place for free.

TheRealDave says:

02:15pm | 20/12/10

12mb is the starting point for ‘the financially challenged’ who want to only check emails and surf. The fibre in the ground running past your house will go thousands of times faster than that. You pay for the speed you are willing to pay for.

$40 odd bucks a month for 100mb is a far better deal than we have ever seen in the industry. Ever. Ask a big corporate at the big end of town what they are paying for a single 100Mb link right now.

You might want to sit down first.

Ben (the other one) says:

02:39pm | 20/12/10

@Shifter, the copper has already been paid for. Gawd, you Labor trolls gripe me with your slimey debating tactics.

You will not get a refund for the copper so Kebabpete is essentially correct - the extra burden on the taxpayer is $27.5 ($35billion depending on which Labor lie document you read) and we already have the service.

Ben (the other one) says:

02:52pm | 20/12/10

@TheRealDave, I suspect you are attempting to foister a bogus comparison on little old me. Try again Dave, the wholesale figure to the retail figure.

Apples vs apples next time. People might then afford you some credibility in the debate.

Shifter says:

03:29pm | 20/12/10

@Ben (the other one) - Labor? Really? Ew. Slimey. I’m definitely not an ALP sympathiser, just someone in the industry who likes shiny new toys. Hence pro-NBN.

However I don’t think I made my earlier point clearly. What I was aiming at here was that once upon a time the government owned Telecom (or whatever it was called back then) paid a bunch of money to create the copper phone network. Essentially, that’s what we’re doing again here. New technology, new network and again the government is forking out a bunch of money to pay for it. Hell I’m not even debating the cost (being fiscally responsible for a sec, it’s a bit much), merely that at one point what we do have now did cost the taxpayer something when it was first put in.

No need for refund on the copper, although it’d be pretty nice if we did recycle the old gear rather than leave it or landfill it.

Richard says:

03:34pm | 20/12/10

Shifter says: 2:14pm “There aren’t any magical telecommunications faeries out there who wave a wand and pop a network in place for free.”

Ah, but this is the big deal for me, and I can’t believe no-one else cares about it; but the Liberal mayor of Brisbane, Campbell Newman, has negotiated a deal which will see all of Brisbane hooked up with fibre to the home at absolutely no charge to the rate-payer.

For me, this really puts the whole thing into perspective, where we see a Labor government so eager to spend $43B+ on an infrastructure network that a Liberal government was able to acquire for its constituents for free.

Shifter says:

04:23pm | 20/12/10

@Richard - sounds mighty suspicious to me. What’s the background on that? I mean surely there’s a cost involved somewhere. Is that no-cost to the rate payer? Or no cost to the rate-payer (because the federal government is doing it for us)? Or no *extra* cost to the rate payer (because we’ve already been over charging on rates and have a nice surplus).

The whole of Brisbane also sounds like just the CBD to me, which would be fairly cheap since the infrastructure in most cities is there already.

If, however, Mr Newman does have access to a magical telecommunications faerie, I’d like to meet it

Shane From Melbourne says:

02:13pm | 20/12/10

Privatization is awesome. I really love paying through the nose for expensive utilities and crap service. Hit me with the privatization bat again cos I love the pain.

Shifter says:

02:17pm | 20/12/10

Yes, and then there will be a giant monopoly that gouges it’s clients for wholesale prices and then competes with them with undercut retail prices to increase the grip on already captive customers.

Then, when the unprofitable part of the network fails, the super private company will announce it’s pulling out of the market in that area.

That’s not going to be a problem now is it? I mean, at least the shareholders will get their profits.

Seriously though says:

02:25pm | 20/12/10

Yes Stephen, cause that worked out so well for the bush with Telstra

Kirk says:

03:30pm | 20/12/10

It will be great if it is privatised - it will still cost just as much for the company to run, but they’ll have to pay $10m bonus to all the executives and dividends to the shareholders.  The best part is that I’ll be one of the shareholders!

stephen says:

10:59pm | 20/12/10

Read my lips :
’ on time and on budget.’
And they’ll have some thing to lose if they don’t.

PS How long will it take to oust a Govt. that wont ?

Technology rules says:

10:00am | 21/12/10

Ah, Stephen, read MY lips: regional Australia will get screwed over by privatisation. I live in Darwin and there are suburbs that still have dial up because Telstra refuses to even consider putting in ADSL infrastructure until they receive 50 requests for ADSL for that suburb. I can only imagine what it’s like for those living in towns south of Darwin. When Abbott said the market would provide, I felt like decking the luddite because the market has never and will never provide for regional Australia - the profit is simply not there.

All you big-city dwellers arguing about how you already have those speeds and don’t need the NBN - that’s great. For you. I would also love to have those speeds where I live and the only way that’s going to happen is with the NBN.

Under the NBN, Darwin and all 4 major regional centres in the NT will be connected to fibre, wireless for the rural area 50k’s outside of Darwin, and Satellite for the rest.

You may dismiss what the Government is saying about improvements to health and education, but it’s true, especially for the NT. Giving regional schools and hospitals and remote health clinics the technology to be able to access more information and services can only be an improvement.

I cannot wait for the NBN.

Jason says:

11:22am | 26/12/10

So, in Darwin you struggle to get 50 people in one suburb who want ADSL access and yet claim there is a need for government provided super fast broadband?  I wonder how much each individual connection will need to be subsidised up there with so little demand?

grumpy old man says:

03:00pm | 20/12/10

i’ll stick with wireless and satellite, it doesn’t all go down at the same time, and I carry my internet with me wherever I go. Simple really, it all does what I want it to do, so why change.
Also need to consider what the satellite providers response is going to be, bet my pay TV comes down in price, and the wireless price has already dropped significantly.

Dee314 says:

09:44pm | 20/12/10

yes, that is such a valid point. I have recently moved to Wentworth Point and homelinx.com have exclusivity rights. This means there is no competition. Will this change under the NBN??

I used to pay $40 for 120 gig, ADSL2+ and used it. Now I pay $90 and uploads count towards the 60 gig. Speeds are the same. I don’t care too much about speeds, as long as it’s decent. I use Skype for most of my phone calls and usually the other side has a slower connection… not me. I care mostly about how much I can use and how much i need to pay.

TheRealDave says:

02:49pm | 20/12/10

*yawn*

You should try reading the news sometime. That shipped sailed the day of the election.

Shifter says:

02:58pm | 20/12/10

@dancan -

OK, *comms hat on*

Short version - this can’t be done on the NBN because of the wholesale layer 2 product.

Long version -

Networks operate according to a 7 layer OSI model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model) where each layer builds on what is placed below it. The wholesale model the NBN is will provide retail ISPs with layer 2 access on which they can sell their products.

You cannot filter the internet at layer 2. Filtering as per the governments plan will occur at layers 3 (filtering by IP address) and above (filtering by keyword, DNS etc). This is the reason ISPs want a layer 2 wholesale product, as it provides them with an unspoiled platform on which to build their own retail products.

So unless the planned product delivery changes, the government cannot filter via the NBN.

Annie says:

02:59pm | 20/12/10

You’re right.  Gillard wants filtering, just like Obama.  Obama’s new FCC policy is being rushed through 3 days before Christmas. 

Don’t take my word for it, read ROBERT M. MCDOWELL’s article in the Wall Street Journal http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703395204576023452250748540.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

“Tomorrow morning the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) will mark the winter solstice by taking an unprecedented step to expand government’s reach into the Internet by attempting to regulate its inner workings. In doing so, the agency will circumvent Congress and disregard a recent court ruling. “

Big brother is alive and well in the US, and coming soon to Australia.

Antennas are works of art says:

09:59am | 21/12/10

Besides the stupidity of your comment, I don’t want to see a cell site (ugly tower) on every corner of my neighborhood
.

Andy says:

02:40pm | 20/12/10

Ah, yes. The time honored Labor ploy of, “Quick! Look over there!”
Beattie/Bligh have done it for years in QLD, and the media are suckers for it every time.

James Milton says:

03:18pm | 20/12/10

Yep, you’ll get your beloved Labor branded NBN (you’ll have to, they need a 70% uptake and will damn well get it!) then an hour later, as you’ve exhausted your paltry 40GB limit, you’ll be shaped to 56k dial-up speeds.

If Labor Fanbois only knew how hilarious they are!!

Shifter says:

04:42pm | 20/12/10

@James Milton - Major ISPs like iiNet and Internode realise that shaping that slow is rubbish, and already do it at a level greater than 56k dialup speeds. Both of these companies have one plan in each of their ADSL2+ and NBN ranges. iiNet have the ‘Terabyte’ plan in their NBN range.

If you honestly believe 40GB shaped to 56k will be the biggest and best offering you’d not looking too hard at what exists in the market now.

Also, (and this is a general also, not just at you, Jim), if you buy a low quota plan and flat-line your connection straight away on the 1st day of the billing month you deserve to be shaped for the rest of it.

Ben (the other one) says:

05:48pm | 20/12/10

@RealDave, I have to protest in the strongest possible terms at your insult to us involving “latte”.

For years now the term “latte” has been used by us to insult you, the effete left-wing inner-city dwellers. You have your own insults to the Libs such as bigots, racists and the world has become quite comfortable with these punctuation marks which embellish the debate.

You have shown more than a bit of this treacherous larceny by stealing our “fiscally irresponsible” insult and hurling it back at us, but this time you have gone too far.

Please in future, think of your own insults and do not steal ours. “Latte” is firmly in our weapons and I urge you to consider that there it should stay.

James Milton says:

07:35pm | 20/12/10

@shifter

“If you honestly believe 40GB shaped to 56k will be the biggest and best offering you’d not looking too hard at what exists in the market now.”

I was referring to The RealDave’s comment “$40 odd bucks a month for 100mb connections, that’s seriously cheap!”

40 gb is nothing, that’s maybe 5-7 HD movies, if they are 720p. Go 1080p and you can halve that. What’s the point of superfast broadband if the ridiculous limits still apply?

Roll out something like they did in Hong Kong, wireless, fast to rollout and setup (not having to dig cables in front of every house in every city/suburb), more than fast enough for pretty much anything, and reasonably priced.

The archaic NBN will be laughed at in 5 years, never mind 10.

Shifter says:

08:15pm | 20/12/10

@James - I’m not sure how $40 odd bucks per month translates to 40GB. What am I missing?

Hong Kong’s network would be great. But don’t forget HK has double the population of Melbourne in 1/8th of the area.So purely looking at coverage area it’ll cost 8 times as much, for half the benefit. You’re also still going to need to dig to lay the backhaul for each wireless hotspot.

That sort of thing is a pipe dream, mainly because Australia doesn’t initially have the terrestrial network to support it. Which, minus the ‘last mile’ connections to residences is exactly what the NBN is.

Fraud indeed says:

05:08pm | 20/12/10

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
lying is easy though

Semblence says:

03:21pm | 20/12/10

So when exactly do you sell the horse and buggy and get an automobile ?. . .Do you wait a hundred years until the Prius is invented?

Richard says:

03:41pm | 20/12/10

But did the government go out and buy everyone automobiles? Has the government mandated a fresh Prius in the driveway for every family? No, the free market will efficiently and cost-effectively provide fast internet for us all automatically if we give it a chance (case in point: Brisbane’s free fibre deal); or else we can give central planning a go and see what happens, because it worked so well for the USSR in the past, right? Compare the former West Germany to the former East Germany, compare South Korea to North Korea, that’s all I’m trying to say.

Shane From Melbourne says:

07:21pm | 20/12/10

@Richard- Free Market has worked so well for the United States. Their economy is a basket case, only kept alive by the artificial stimulus of printing money. It is what happens when you leave the foxes in charge of the chicken coop, or in this case Wall St in charge of Congress….

Bev says:

08:48pm | 20/12/10

As I understand it each house will get two converted feeds (fibre to wire) after that its up to you. Estimates of cost vary from $300 for phone and one internet connection to $3,4000 dollars to wire your house with cat5E cat6 at $300 per point.

Shifter says:

05:53pm | 20/12/10

You raise a good point about international transit bandwidth Wayne. The government (as well as previous governments have done in the past) is leaving this in private enterprise hands. They seem to be doing OK with it, mainly as it’s a profitable service which makes them want to build.

The question is would you want a government controlled transit bandwidth service? If the government wanted a secret filter or data tap, this would be a prime location to have one.

I’m all for a government owned layer 2 access network as proposed, but controlling all of the transit bandwidth into the country, that’s a bit scary.

Getting to know you says:

04:50pm | 20/12/10

Good work Semblence
This is just part of the reason why Murdoch has been so anti-Labor in his rags and TV interests. The NBN is going to bankrupt Murdoch faster than his vanishing circulation base.
Imagine what a huge market video on demand alone is.
Foxtel, FetchTV, Bigpond movies, Tivo, Xbox movies, Austar.
Now imagine if you didn’t have to factor in all the “set top boxes”, satellite dishes and other infrastructure into the price of the delivery of these services.
All these types of services will be available through your NBN connection.

Shifter says:

05:58pm | 20/12/10

Nice pickup. As Gates wrote once ‘content is king’. Transmission networks need to become ubiquitious, however I’m sure companies will aim to limit this and sell your rights back to you.

We’ve seen this already with the advent of music streaming and downloads. Companies which previously controlled distribution are in a panic and have reacted by treating customers as criminals.

It’ll be a rocky road because these distributors are a wealthy and powerful lot.

So how much of the Liberal opposition is down to the lobbyists’ and backers’ interests?

TCB 24 X 7 says:

09:15pm | 20/12/10

Are you not happy with the speed now while playing your games

TCB 24 7 says:

09:34pm | 20/12/10

Also semblence,
Dont forget to make sure to keep extra cash on you when your friends introduce their 30% electricity tax on you.

MarK says:

04:19pm | 20/12/10

You can do that now bella

Shifter says:

06:00pm | 20/12/10

I don’t know MarK. Disregarding the time required to book the pickup, I think a bike Courier could beat a full dual-layer DVDs worth of data across the CBD int most Aussie capitals. Definitely in Darwin.

Grumps says:

04:58pm | 20/12/10

well if you live in the bush…...in some places it’s all there is.

Debbie says:

06:24pm | 20/12/10

Like the choice we have now ... let me see currently you can use a Telstra line or ... umm ... a Telstra line ... thats what I call competition.

Feralman says:

08:08pm | 20/12/10

Great Craig, so you don’t pay for your landline phone calls or electricity you use now?? - just remember who originally paid for the copper network and power grid many, many years ago before it was all privatised. I can recall my parents still having to pay for the use of the service when it was owned by the state.
Mute argument really!!

Craig says:

08:56pm | 20/12/10

Feralman, I don’t use landlines and my power company is privatly owned, the SEC was privatised many years ago, therefore your argument is flawed to begin with. There is very little if any part of the power grid remaining today that hasn’t been replaced, repaired or upgraded by the private companys that took over, also most of if not all of the old telecom lines aren’t used anymore or have been replaced since the take over, those that haven’t are now failing. If this was done as a true profit making, state owned company then we shouldn’t have to pay income taxe once it’s up and running since the govenment will be making billions per year from OUR investment without paying us a cent in return.

Lord Rocker says:

09:09pm | 20/12/10

Your knowledge is remarkable, is this coming out the the Abbott hand book of IT knowledge?  The 12 MBit connection is the base speed (the slowest you will get).  For $38 wholesale it is 100Mbit down and 40Mbit UP.

Now, since your not interested in paying for it (as you believe you already have) you might as well not pay for the other infrastructure projects you and you grand parents have already paid for.  Examples include: Your Telephone, Train System, Buses, Electricity grid and your sewage.

Sorf says:

09:49pm | 20/12/10

We, Sir, are a Society. A democratic Society. We own our country. Not *you*. We.

In part as individuals, in part as a Nation. We, Sir, progressed from farmhandsand their wives & children dying needlessly of curable disease and plain damned ignorance, by paying taxes for national interests in which many of us share and all of us benefit.

We abide by our laws. We vote for our governments that make those laws. We fund our society, by contributing our work, our ideas, our taxes and our opinions.  We may differ, but we agree to make our way forward together.

You, Sir, benefit from our taxes. You benefit from our laws, made by our Government. We don’t begrudge it. We are an adult, thinking, working, Society.

We, Sir, even tolerate your selfish, ignorant, one-eyed whining, while we get on with keeping and making our Nation better.

You, Sir are a part of our Society.  Welcome to the adult world.

URawirelesscompany stooge says:

10:12am | 21/12/10

better stick to bending bananas, you get a mark of zero for your technical acumen.

Give the wireless thing a rest, everyone else has gotten past it.
Wireless is for MOBILE communications. The adults here are talking about fibre to the home

Japius says:

07:01am | 21/12/10

Remember it is OUR money being used to fund this, surely the end result MUST be a cheaper AND more reliable service?

I cannot see how I am going to be better off than I am now.

I would expect that from such a huge investment of OUR money there would be no reason for someone like me who is in a metro area to not get a 50mbps+ service with unlimited data for $50 a month….

Unfortuantely that is not going to happen, so after the HUGE investment of OUR money I will have to swap my unlimited $69 a month plan for either a slightly cheaper but wildly restricted quota plan or pay double what I am now going by the estimations going about today.

Bananabender says:

08:33am | 21/12/10

You are confusing BITS and BYTES.

3.1 MEGABYTES/sec = 24.8 MEGABITS/sec

You are getting what you paid for.

thetrureal says:

05:38pm | 21/12/10

Bananabender, you are too stupid to function in life!!!, all internet transmissions are measured in bits, not bytes, only computer equipment is measured in bytes, such as hard drives, modems and ect. i am getting 3.1 M bits “M” is million” 8 bits equals 1 byte, 3100 bytes per second, ADSL2+ is 24000 bytes per second so i’m getting 1/8 of the speed.

Japius, big deal if you have unlimited, your speeds will prevent you from reaching your limits, that is why most ADSL ISP’s provide unlimited for a cheap price, because they know that it will be very hard to reach the limited, why don’t cable ISP’s provide unlimited!!!

It’s people like you that stuff it up for everyone when you don’t know anything and what your saying and that the sheep end up listing to you.

That is why Australia will go from a 2nd world country to a 3rd world country.

Japius says:

07:15pm | 21/12/10

@thetrureal last month I used 965gb how will I do this for $69 a month under the NBN?

What do u mean my “speed will prevent me from reaching my limits”?

My point is that I will not be able to get the same service as I do now, faster sure but who cares if that means I’m paying thru the nose or shaped after the first 2 days because the extra speed has meant I’ve blown through my quota straightbaway.

Its people like you who think that a 50gb limit is more than enough who will ruin it for everyone who does use the net to it’s full potential and actually chews through data, especially as more and more data hungry services are enabled under the nun.

Lord Rocker says:

10:03am | 21/12/10

4GLTE and WiMax?  I hope you have a beautiful future together with your 4-5 Mbit speeds (Real World Speeds, not Lab Speeds)...and lets just forget about upload!