If the catch cry of the 60s was “all you need is love” it seems the slogan of the 21st century is “all you need is hate”.

Even the birds are really angry these days

We are seeing death threats to climate scientists, a resurgence of shock jocks on the radio, Facebook groups set up with the sole purpose of “hating” reality TV contestants or celebrities. Add that to a political culture characterised by hyperbole, derision and negativity.

Road rage was an unknown term in Australia 20 years ago, now it is commonplace and has spawned all manner of similar rages. Are we developing a civic culture where hate is commonplace, where we play the man not the ball?

The debate on climate change and the carbon tax has probably been the most heated I can remember. A carbon tax is the biggest change to our economy since the GST, but the level of anger around the debate has been far higher.

Over the past few weeks we have seen the Prime Minister referred to as a “witch”, a “scrag” and other epithets, as protests around the introduction of the tax generate more heat than light.

Hyperbole and spin have always been part of politics, but shock jock Alan Jones’ call for the Prime Minister to be put in a bag and thrown in the sea, or the death threats to scientists and politicians who support a price on carbon, are taking our political culture to a scary place.

The abuse leveled at indigenous traditional owners in the Kimberley who support a gas hub at James Price Point is another example of the rise of hate and personal abuse. Indigenous owners who support the projects, for the jobs and resources they can bring to their community, have been subject to racial and personal slurs. These only come from a minority of people opposed to the development, but they poison the debate and raise tensions within a small community.

There will always be controversial issues in any society and robust debate. But in the long-term democracy is about more than voting, or individual rights. It is about maintaining a culture where people tolerate each other’s opinions and different views on life. Where people instinctively do the right thing because they respect each other, and have faith that respect will be returned.

This civility is one of the things that has distinguished Australia from other countries. Despite the controversies in our nation’s history, such as that over conscription in WWI and the Vietnam War, we have been able to maintain our social fabric. Is there more hatred around these days, or are there just more avenues to express it?

The growth of the internet has given a voice to people who were previously just passive consumers of media. That’s a good thing, but it has some bad consequences. For some, the anonymity of the internet can be like the anonymity of a Ku Klux Klan hood. Others simply want to get any sort of reaction and resort to personal abuse.

It’s easy to say that it’s just “venting” or a safety valve for disgruntled people, but once amped-up hatred and outrage becomes the new normal, how do we return our politics to a level of civility? How do we remind ourselves of the things we have in common if we are obsessively focusing on our differences?

We are also in a changing media culture, where newspapers, radio and TV are trying to keep up with the internet. This means that media are, even more than ever, seeking the most sensational or outrageous aspects of a story. Personal attacks on MPs seem to be harsher than ever, and are likely to turn talented people away from politics.

Former Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner observed that everyone in politics exaggerates everything all the time. He was right, but the process of exaggeration and concocted outrage is being fuelled by a media cycle that moves faster than ever.

No one is going to get headlines by saying “things actually aren’t too bad” or “proposed change to make little difference” or “policy has good and bad bits”, but in reality that probably describes a lot of the political debates in this country. In the end it comes down to a choice about how we conduct ourselves.

It’s about whether we go for the easy option of hating, or the tougher option of trying to understand the people we disagree with, and why they think the way they do.

Resorting to stereotypes of “rednecks, “bogans” or “latte-sippers” might score a few points in the short-term, but in the long-term this style of debate is hollowing out our political culture. I’m always interested in the reader comments these columns attract, but this time have a longer think than usual before you post!

201 comments

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    • Erick says:

      04:52am | 18/10/11

      I seem to remember a lot of hate directed at John Howard. And some pretty serious hate from unions aimed at Workchoices. Funny how these have slipped below your radar.

      There has been no increase in hate in our society. What you’re objecting to is criticism of the government, and the reason you’re objecting to it is because it’s a Labor government.

    • Nathan says:

      07:26am | 18/10/11

      the article was critical of both sides. You may realise this one day but you are not always right

    • Nathan says:

      07:28am | 18/10/11

      How about your mates who incite violence…we won’t talk about them but if we do we will defend them and then say what about Unions get a grip mate

    • Mayday says:

      07:50am | 18/10/11

      Nathan this is another one sided rant.

      “It is about maintaining a culture where people tolerate each other’s opinions and different views on life.’  Really Ged and that is why the emotive term “denier” is thrown about by your side in regard to climate change.
      People are frustrated…...this government does not listen to the people and soon they will pay for being so bloody minded.

      The Left are the all knowing Nathan just ask Ged!

    • AdamC says:

      07:51am | 18/10/11

      I agree, Erick. GIven the way unions tend to conduct themslves, Ged is really not in a position to lament a loss of civility.

    • Vicki Hodges says:

      08:01am | 18/10/11

      Have a look at what is written about Tony Abbott. There are sites that show him with a human head and “snake serpent” body and the comments made about him there are pretty bad. Howard copped more “personal” attacks than most and NOT a word was ever said. Now, because Australians have FINALLY woken up, STOOD Up and said “enough” sections of the BIASED media can’t cop it. Well too bad. The SLEEPING GIANT IS AWAKE NOW and will not be ignored or lied to anymore. Who has created this “deep seated” ANGER? It wouldn’t be caused by a PM and an ALP Government hell bent on going against its own people and using every single underhanded bullying trick in the book to do so? Articles like this are just more spin and rubbish peddled by a media thats been happy to feed us all “party line” BS. The deep running frustration and rage felt and expressed by Australians won’t go away until Gillard and Co do!!!

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:05am | 18/10/11

      I am pretty certain Erick is always “right”. What I am confused about is how Ged is helping her members? Unless Ged’s membership base consist solely of the ALP.

    • Willie Mac says:

      08:05am | 18/10/11

      Do you ever respond to articles with anything other than highlighting what you perceive as bias towards men, conservatives etc? It’s fine to stick up for the groups you see as being marginalised, but it would be nice to hear something other than your usual claims of persecution by Punch authors.

      Secondly, it’s inconsistent to say that the only increase in hate has been towards the Labor Party when you state that Howard copped it as well.

    • max headroom says:

      08:30am | 18/10/11

      Me too Adam Drivers Ged’s agenda appears to be an ALP safe seat in Parliament not the welfare of her members

    • andye says:

      08:40am | 18/10/11

      @Erick - You are right in one way, but you know that was a kind of transitional phase. Lots of the hate was driven by anti-war sentiment and the old school militant left organisations. Yes they used the internet but that kind of “debate” was in its infancy, especially here.

      In the USA, sites like Free Republic were being set up and Fox News was echoing this conservative standpoint. You will get very quickly banned from Free Republic for espousing any leftists ideas. These echo chambers allow the bombast to be built up and reinforced, and then those people go out into the wider world and start pushing those ideas.

      Obama being a secret muslim, the birth certificate thing… its a mix of these conspiracies and language that paints those on the left as traitors and socialists, marxists and so on. People like Ann Coulter are writing books titled “Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism”. Fox News then put Ann on as a pundit. The USA has an entire industry that is ostensibly about conservatism, but they seem to spend all their time talking about those dirty liberal traitors.

      This kind of hatred against the left took its ultimate expression in Norway this year.

      Whatever you might say about the hate of the left, it was the right who perfected this approach. Now Australia seems to be catching up. I see people saying this is the most socialist government ever. This is exactly the language that was being used about Obama. It has just been transferred across. Abbott has perfected this negative approach, and Labor is reeling.

      In places like The Punch I see a hell of a lot of name-calling and that is only increasing. Stereotypes and generalisation are also an easy way to dismiss opposition. At this time the left is definitely losing this battle.

      Buyer beware, however. The right may have perfected this approach but it is becoming the new way. If Abbott finds himself in power, he should expect the same or worse right back. These tactics are now what is shown to be successful. being in opposition gives you a lot of time and motivation to perfect these things, We haven’t seen the left in this new world yet. They are losing because they are still behind, playing the wrong game.

    • Erick says:

      08:49am | 18/10/11

      @Willie Mac - Evidently you need to read more of my comments to overcome that erroneous impression..

      Also, I didn’t say “that the only increase in hate has been towards the Labor Party”. I said there has been no increase in hate in our society. It’s right there in the second paragraph.

    • TChong says:

      08:53am | 18/10/11

      vicki-
      “THE SLEEPING GIANT IS AWAKE NOW ” ?
      You sound like your reading straight from the TEA PARTY “How To ” pamphlets
      CHILL !!!!!
      Your comment will be just as valid, and noted when typed in the usual lower case * ,or else borrow my one eyed pinko monocle , so you stop hitting Caps.
      * from TChongs :  “Manifesto of Etiquette , For All Occasions “
      ( To be written and published just in time for Festivus.)

    • Erick says:

      08:54am | 18/10/11

      @andye - You are simply making excuses for your own side’s hate, while exaggerating that of the other side.

      There is plenty of hatred to go around, and nobody has a monopoly.

    • acotrel says:

      09:16am | 18/10/11

      @AdamC
      ‘I agree, Erick. GIven the way unions tend to conduct themslves, Ged is really not in a position to lament a loss of civility.’

      I’ve never been active in a union because of the nature of my employment.  You can be really grateful for that.  What you’ve been dealing with have been a lot of relatively uneducated kids !  I have only one complaint about the unions which have been represented in my major workplaces - they haven’t been smart enough, or active enough.  If they had been, our industry might have survived the deindustrialisation of Australia. Where we are now is living with a dumbed down education system, widespread deskilling, and coping with employers who cannot adjust to the free market without going offshore.

    • andye says:

      09:30am | 18/10/11

      @ Erick - No I am not. Excuses? I am saying that the left will be MORE into this hate in the future as soon as they catch up to the right in harnessing that energy. It isn’t about the amount of hate, it is about effectively channeling that into a potent political force. In both the USA and now increasingly Australia, the right has shown exactly how to do this.

      Lots of the comments I read here about Labor are EXACTLY the same comments I was reading a while back about the USA Democrats. We have a TEA Party…. do you deny that this american style is coming over here now?

    • dovif says:

      09:44am | 18/10/11

      Ged

      Why don’t you spend more of your time doing the job your union members paid you to do? We have a government ripping $10 billion out of the business, which can only led to the following
      a. increase in prices for consumers
      b, decrease in payment of wages, including sacking of employee
      c. decrease in profit for business, which might go bankrupt and led to sacking of every employee
      d. price pressure for suppliers, which could led to more a., b. and c.

      So can you do your job for once, and complain about how a government taking billions from business will destroy jobs and employement

    • Fiona says:

      10:05am | 18/10/11

      Tchong, I love festivus! Maybe that can bring out the happiness, rainbows and kumbyah singing.

    • Maree says:

      10:33am | 18/10/11

      Erick: Have to generally agree with you. This articles inclination toward balance is also pretty clear where its really coming from. Maybe the unions would be better served by Gedd if they actually listened to their rank and file instead of telling the rank and file what to think. She may find this is where a lot of the anger is coming from !

    • Jackie says:

      11:17am | 18/10/11

      @ Vicki , you spewed forth some pretty vile hate lines in your anti Malcom Turbull rant on saturday. You really need to find some peace in your life or you will break the “caps lock” button on your keyboard.

    • Average Joe says:

      11:20am | 18/10/11

      @ Vicki Hodges: “Howard copped more “personal” attacks than most and NOT a word was ever said.”

      Bullpuckey! People have some serious selective blindness/amnesia going on around here. The pr- Libs vehemenetly defended Howard and denounced detratcors back when he was copping criticism as PM, the same way pro Labour types are doing the same for Julia now. If people could stop being one-eyed ,slavish followers of either party, they might be able to get some perspective and see the whole picture.

    • HeatherG says:

      11:33am | 18/10/11

      Tony Abbot cops a fair share… “mad monk”.

      I have some otherwise very smart Labor-voting friends who, despite the fact they despise where the Labor party had gone, would refuse to vote Liberal for the sole reason that they “hate Tony Abbott”. When pressed as to why, they usually utilise his religious beliefs.

      Ugly bigotry is ugly, whether it’s aimed at atheists or religious [no matter what religion—some religious people aren’t of a Christian denomination, but that seems to be the default assumption] folk.

      (Before someone comes back with the “dangers of pressing religious [Christian] beliefs into Parliament”—there are religious Labor MPs and atheistic Liberals, and no one is above pushing an agenda, religious or otherwise. ‘Tis not the point I’m making. But for the record, I do not practice any religion. I wouldn’t class myself an atheist either, though—I don’t presume to know that I can definitively presume my “logic” is so advanced that I am correct to believe there’s nothing there—that relies on a certain amount of “faith” I don’t have. I’m okay with “I don’t actually have a fecking clue”).

      I agree, until we get past all the school-kid name-calling and political rhetoric (“science” vs “deniers”; “witch” vs “mad monk”) nothing will ever get done. We’re all too busy thinking up new words to fling at each other in ways that make “them” seem “stupid.” Propaganda has always relied on turning the opposition into the “other”. Surely it’s time we *all* grew up a bit?

    • Erick says:

      11:50am | 18/10/11

      @andye - Your premise is fundamentally flawed, because you either ignore or excuse hate from the Left, while exaggerating hate from the Right.

      Therefore both your analysis and your predictions are wrong.

    • Kipling says:

      12:30pm | 18/10/11

      So in short, it is ok to spew forth with hateful bile because “they did it first”....
      Is that seriously the sum total of justifying inappropriate and disrespectful behaviour?

    • Expat Ozzie says:

      12:44pm | 18/10/11

      Erick: Actually Andye is right about the skill with which the LNP have harnessed the hate and fear in the electorate. This is the Labor parties biggest weakness. There is one thing for certain, John Howard masterfully watched the one nation movement and very skillfully learned to take away their power base and incorporated it in LNP doctrine. It’s been a brilliant strategy and it’s still working, there’s no better way to win then have a big unseen bogie man on the high seas now is there.

    • John Smythe says:

      01:04pm | 18/10/11

      I’m with Andye on this one as well….can’t quite get out in words what I want to say, but I think you are both saying the same thing, just your (Erick’s) focus is a little too close up to see Andye’s point.

    • Labor is Toxic (most of the time) says:

      01:09pm | 18/10/11

      “Former Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner observed that everyone in politics exaggerates everything all the time. He was right ...” I think that it is laughable that someone can agree with this absolute statement.

      Maybe “most people in politics exaggerate most of the time.’ Or maybe I should just agree with you and realise that every point raised in this polical acticle is exaggerated.

    • Erick says:

      01:13pm | 18/10/11

      @Kipling - That appears to be a component of Andye’s reasoning.

      @Ozzie Expat - At this point, we’re just going around in circles, repeating ourselves. I’ll just remind you that I’m right and you’re wrong, and leave it there.

      Peace, out.

    • Erick says:

      01:21pm | 18/10/11

      @John Smythe - I understand Andye’s point perfectly well. I just don’t agree with it.

      I am holding the position that both sides are equally guilty of hatred. He is claiming that the Right side is not only more hatey, and is in fact engaged in a hateful conspiracy to spread even more hatey hate. Whic is actually a rather hateful claim to make.

      Of course, he is wrong. There is hate on both sides.

    • Expat Ozzie says:

      01:27pm | 18/10/11

      Erick: “I’ll just remind you that I’m right and you’re wrong, and leave it there.” That’s about what I expected to here from you eventually Erick. You usually resort to an arrogant I’m right your wrong stance with almost all of your arguments.

      I think Kipling has it about right. It’s a sad state our country is in when both sides of the fence think it’s okay to use these tactics to get where they want to go. Very sad indeed

    • Labor is Toxic says:

      01:34pm | 18/10/11

      But I must admit that I would be very very disappointed if I voted for Tony Windsor in the last election. Imagine voting for an independent, only to find that he gave his support to a Party who is so despised in the electorate that they chose not to run a candidate so they could form government.

    • andye says:

      02:02pm | 18/10/11

      @Erick - I am talking about an internet enabled wave of hate. I am talking about how the right in the USA were better organised and coordinated and at the same time had Fox News cheering for them. I am talking about how so much of what I read now here is basically what was being said years ago over there. This language (Socialism, Traitors, etc…) has been imported as part of a framework used to attack the left.

      Fact is, the left aren’t all that good at this stuff at the moment. They come across as preachy and superior and this is very easy to target with the kind of language that has crept into the “debate”. Whereas the left used to be the ones organised and marching and protesting, the right has been able to do this much more recently and the appearance of sub-groups like the Tea Party just reinforces this. The protests by the right have been a lot more focused and able to drive opinion than say the wall st thing.

    • Paul M says:

      02:02pm | 18/10/11

      @ Labour is toxic

      I think you missed the point of his statement.

      It is along the lines of “if I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a million times, don’t exagerate!”

    • andye says:

      02:25pm | 18/10/11

      @Erick - Oh, Erick. You are deliberately misinterpreting me. I am talking about tactics. I am talking about the language used by the right, which has come from an industry of hate in the USA.

      I posted this a while back, but here it is again. A list of books:

      Ann Coulter (all her books have been on the NYT bestseller list):
      * Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism.
      * How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must).
      * Godless: The Church of Liberalism.
      * If Democrats Had Any Brains, They’d Be Republicans.
      * Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America
      * Guilty: Liberal “Victims” and Their Assault on America

      Michael Savage (has the 3rd most listened to talkback radio show in the USA:
      * Liberalism Is a Mental Disorder.
      * The Savage Nation: Saving America from the Liberal Assault on Our Borders, Language and Culture.
      * The Enemy Within: Saving America from the Liberal Assault on Our Schools, Faith, and Military.
      * The Enemy Within: Saving America from the Liberal Assault on Our Churches, Schools, and Military

      There are certainly examples on the other side, such as Al Franken, but they don’t really compare.

      There may be “equal hate” for all i know on both sides. Your insistence that this is the only possible answer just demonstrates your own arrogance. All I know is that this hate industry and the language that it has encouraged is now creeping into the vernacular of the right in Australia.

    • James1 says:

      04:02pm | 18/10/11

      andye, you would be hard pressed to find anyone in Australia who doesn’t think that the Savages, Coulters and Becks of the US are indeed totally off their heads, hate-filled and angry.  Indeed, those three commentators in particular are so angry that there is no equivalent in this country, and we all know that the left in the US are a bunch of liberal hippy douches a la South Park, and are too far up their own bottoms to get that angry about anything. 

      I think Erick is about right, though, when he says that in Australia the hate on both sides is pretty evenly distributed.  Sure, those of us on the right might be spouting most of the hatred right now, but this has not always been the case, and no doubt will not always be the case.  I put it to you that this has more to do with who is in government right now than it has to do with underlying tendencies.

    • Ando says:

      06:41pm | 18/10/11

      Andye,
      You seem to be arguing the right is more organised or unified.Maybe?Any suggestion from either side that their side hates any less is ridiculous. One side may appear more hateful when an issue rallies the troops, espeacially when you disagree with their view.

    • andye says:

      08:47pm | 18/10/11

      @James1 - “andye, you would be hard pressed to find anyone in Australia who doesn’t think that the Savages, Coulters and Becks of the US are indeed totally off their heads, hate-filled and angry.”

      Whether or not people know the sources, the language has seeped in. Someone here posted that “liberalism is a mental disease” a while back (or something very close) without realising that is the title of a Michael Savage book.

      I have been arguing on the internet for a good dozen years, poking my head into various echo chambers (free republic being a prime example) and its been really weird to see this start to migrate from the USA over to here. It has accelerated recently.

      @ Ando - “You seem to be arguing the right is more organised or unified.Maybe?Any suggestion from either side that their side hates any less is ridiculous. One side may appear more hateful when an issue rallies the troops, espeacially when you disagree with their view.”

      How does one measure hate? Perhaps a hate-o-meter? I am only talking about what I have observed. How that relates to the relative levels of hate? I don’t know.

      What I am talking about is an approach that is spreading and which has been exceptionally well utilised by various conservatives. It is an observation. You can make your own subjective calls on what that means for comparative hatred levels.

    • acotrel says:

      04:57am | 18/10/11

      Rupert Murdoch, Alan Jones, Piers Akerman, and Andrew Bolt should be locked up in the same jail cell together for about ten years.  We’d probably end up with a mess of festering toxin threatening to burn its way to the centre of the earth, just like the China Syndrome.

    • Erick says:

      07:34am | 18/10/11

      What a hateful thing to say, acottrel.

      Hmm, isn’t it about time you called Tony Abbott a Nazi gain?

    • Shivo says:

      07:59am | 18/10/11

      And in another jail cell you could lock, Mike Carlton, David Marr and the MSM.
      If you want festering hate, just read their rubbish.

    • Vicki Hodges says:

      08:39am | 18/10/11

      Yeah, yeah, yeah!
      Lock up everyone that wants to “peddle” truth, lock up everyone that doesn’t “agree” with dictator Gillard. Get rid of that hateful thing called “freedom of speech” and “ban” democracy!  Let’s just make it mandatory that we all get a subscription of the “Melbourne Age” for Christmas!
      Or cancel all other TV licenses and make it mandatory that all TV’s only have one channel. We can all watch the UNBIASED ABC all day then.

    • Carolyn says:

      08:55am | 18/10/11

      That would be an interesting cage match!

    • acotrel says:

      09:06am | 18/10/11

      @Erick
      ‘Hmm, isn’t it about time you called Tony Abbott a Nazi gain? ‘

      No need to state the obvious !

    • RyaN says:

      09:40am | 18/10/11

      @acotrel: You forgot Mal Farr and Laurie Oakes!

    • Jackie says:

      11:20am | 18/10/11

      You Kinky Beast Acotrel, will they be nude??? smile

    • Dash says:

      12:44pm | 18/10/11

      Why acotrel? They don’t agree with your ALP? they don’t swallow the ALP propaganda? Better hold a media inquiry to weed all the detractors out.

    • acotrel says:

      06:15pm | 18/10/11

      @Dash
      ‘Why acotrel? They don’t agree with your ALP? they don’t swallow the ALP propaganda? Better hold a media inquiry to weed all the detractors out. ‘

      I’ll tell you why !  I don’t tolerate poisom in my life, and those three bastards are into it big time !  Criticism is one thing, better if it’s constructive, but outright poison is extremely down.  It fucks the world !
      It’s what the Palestians, and the islamic fundamentalists are into, and those three guys are no better ! As far as Tony Abbott is concerned, he wants to hope that he never meets me in front of a TV camera.

    • Lee says:

      09:48am | 19/10/11

      Ahhh can’t you feel the love. Take a breath people

    • LeftRightOut® says:

      05:24am | 18/10/11

      The irony… a union leader, lamenting that “hate” is style de jour.

      Let’s see how some of Jed’s mates “hate”...

      CFMEU $3.2 Million in fines for breach of order/agreement/coercion/industrial action/right of entry/discrimination. (via Catallaxyfiles)
      Go here: http://abcc.gov.au/search/results.aspx?k=cfmeu&s=Abcc to see some real hate… funny how Ged gets stuck into punchers for debating online, no mention of the disgraceful tactics used by her members’ unions. Hypocracy abounds, people.

    • Sev says:

      09:04am | 18/10/11

      What about the Qantas union thugs sending death threats to other qantas workers, smashing cars, etc???
      Next thing the unions will be telling us they dont lie either.

    • Super D says:

      05:43am | 18/10/11

      Didn’t former ALP Prime Ministerial candidate Mark Latham boast of being a hater?

      I don’t remember the debates around waterfront reform or workchoices being particularly friendly.  Perhaps its only ok for the organised labour movement to hate.

      The idea that hateful disagreement is somehow new, more extreme or even disturbing is just nonsense.

    • TChong says:

      06:19am | 18/10/11

      Super D
      Just as non sensical as to imply that hate is only a feature of the Left.

    • Super D says:

      06:44am | 18/10/11

      I didn’t think it was.  The left certainly doesn’t have a mortgage on hate.  They do own hypocrisy outright though.

    • jf says:

      06:46am | 18/10/11

      TChong says:07:19am | 18/10/11

      “Just as non sensical as to imply that hate is only a feature of the Left.”

      Absolutely right TChong. However, absent from this article was one single example of hate directed by the left. Jed’s unspoken inference being that it is only her opponents how hate.

    • Nathan says:

      06:50am | 18/10/11

      @Super D
      You have Surpassed yourself again, a group of people get thrown out of jobs (rightly or wrongly) by the federal government cloak and dagger style and you are blaming the union movement for fighting to get their jobs back? I am not a fan of many of the actions of the Unions but they where bloody right to fight for these peoples jobs.

      How one eyed can you really be that you can simply ignore anything from the right on any level.

    • Nilbog says:

      08:15am | 18/10/11

      @ Nathan

      Sucked to be them, didn’t it? smile

    • Super D says:

      09:09am | 18/10/11

      @Nathan - you have missed the point again.

      My point was that the union protests associated with the maritime disputes and workchoices weren’t all hair braiding and drum circles.  Was it not unionists who in a hate fueled rage stormed our nations parliament?

      Ged’s premise is that somehow politics has got more vitriolic and hate filled.  This is just nonsense.

      For the record I was dead against workchoices mk1.  The removal of any sort of no disadvantage test was just wrong.  It allowed the worst bosses to exploit the weakest workers.  It basically assumed benevolence on the part of human beings.  I’m not arguing that humans aren’t capable of great acts of altruism, generosity and benevolence, just that if you assume them you get whacked by reality every time.  In my opinion the left tends to get this sort of thing wrong more often than the right - refer the pink batts scheme.

    • Paulb says:

      09:15am | 18/10/11

      Hate as a feature of “Leftists” is a creation of Right-wing American marketing scumbags.  Its a concept that was used to insulate the Bush 2 Government from legitimate criticism, and it was used heavily by foul creatures like Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter.  I have no problem with hate directed at people like them whose mission in life is to deceive for pay.  Its just a shame that this meme is now being played out in Australian political discourse because Its not something I see from the obvious Leftys commenting here.  Robust debate, yes, but hate?  no.

    • Erick says:

      09:40am | 18/10/11

      @Paulb - “Right-wing American marketing scumbags”, “by foul creatures like Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter”, “have no problem with hate directed at people like them”.

      Thanks for those nice examples of left-wing hate. You’ve effectively destroyed your own argument.

    • James1 says:

      11:10am | 18/10/11

      Then you are actually no better than Bill O’Reilly, Paul.  What separates what you have said from O’Reilly’s ugly tendency to shout down his guests with words like “pinhead”?  I certainly don’t see any difference.

    • jf says:

      11:16am | 18/10/11

      Paulb says:10:15am | 18/10/11

      “I have no problem with hate directed at people like them whose mission in life is to deceive for pay.”

      So, the union movement, the ALP, climate warmists, the occupy Wall St. mob et al.

      I don’t hate them but I certainly get frustrated with their lies and obfuscation in an endeavour to further their baseless agendas.

    • S.L says:

      06:04am | 18/10/11

      While driving a taxi at night I found the “happy” drunk a thing of the past. Anybody with a few under their belt these days are argumentitive and no matter what you say they try to twist it to give them an excuse to commit physical abuse.
      Be nice and they think your “taking the piss”, be confronting and that’s what they are looking for!
      As most kids are on the “disco biscuits” these days it doesn’t help the situation either and if they get arrested their parents confront the police instead of support them!
      Yes it is now a world of hate…...............

    • L. says:

      07:49am | 18/10/11

      “As most kids are on the “disco biscuits” these days it doesn’t help the situation either”

      Ummm… you do realise that disco bikkies just make you want to hug people and tell them you love them, yeah..?? It’s the whole point of the drug.

    • S.L says:

      10:57am | 18/10/11

      @L Go out and have a look at these kids and see if they want to hug everybody! Most of the time it makes them “supermen” (and girls) and your theory couldn’t be further from the truth!

    • amy says:

      12:01pm | 18/10/11

      Disco biscuts and alchohol work in different ways and have different effects, that was the point

      this drinking culture in Australia is a huge problem in regards to violence

    • Trevor says:

      01:07pm | 18/10/11

      If we had a culture of disco biscuits like we currently do with alcohol, this whole conversation would be redundant.

    • Kika says:

      02:03pm | 18/10/11

      hahahaha disco biscuits. I think that’s the solution. Everyone should have disco biscuits and we’d all be happy and loving each other until 2 days later we all crash and get depressed and want to kill ourselves.

    • werthers says:

      02:35pm | 18/10/11

      Its not the pills that make people angry its the crack and meth.
      Pills make people happy, thats their whole reason for being.

    • Viti says:

      06:27am | 18/10/11

      Patronising little comment at the bottom paragraph. Straight out of the Julia lexicon. Perhaps you have selective memory or are simply too young to remember the hate of union campaigns past.
      The modern venting on social and other media may just be a safety valve at busting point!

    • Macca says:

      06:32am | 18/10/11

      Affable priorities, GED. We should all treat each other with more respect and care. Perhaps we could start with you using your considerable level of influence within the Labor movement to encourage Union officials to use less inflammatory language. Surely you could extend your request, initially directed to shock jocks and the general public, to the leadership of various unions who continuously term their interactions with company bargaining representatives as “war”, “sabotage”  “fight” “beligerant” and “intimidate”. Just a suggestion.

    • James1 says:

      11:06am | 18/10/11

      I think it is an issue with education.  You look at who is peddling hate on both sides, and you almost invariably find that they lack any formal qualifications or higher education.  Your Alan Joneses and union leaders of this world do not have the intellectual capacity to clearly express their grievances, and thus tend toward hate and anger instead.

      On the other hand, a lot of people seem to confuse disagreement with hate as well.  While there is no doubt that calling for a person to be drowned is hateful, a lot of stuff that is labelled hateful in actual facts is simple disagreement.  For example, many climate sceptics are considered hate mongerers by those on the left, when all they are really doing is disagreeing.

      Either way, the national political discussion is sick, and needs help badly.

    • AdamC says:

      11:32am | 18/10/11

      James1, Alan Jones was reasonably well educated for a person of his generation. (That isn’t generation-bashing, just an acknowledgement that fewer of those born in the war-era went to university than Gen Xers or Ys.) He completed a BA and some educational qualifications and was appointed the English master at the Kings School in Parramatta.

    • Ben C says:

      12:00pm | 18/10/11

      @ James1

      “Either way, the national political discussion is sick, and needs help badly.”

      Actually, this is where Rob Oakeshott’s “New Paradigm” was supposed to help. It’s been anything but, and Oakeshott himself demonstrated that he was talking out of his arse when he played the air violin towards the Opposition in the House when the carbon tax was passed.

      It’s not a good sign when our elected representatives are showing such immaturity.

    • James1 says:

      12:07pm | 18/10/11

      I discovered this after posting Adam, unfortunately for me (but it still holds true for many of the more hateful union leaders).  To my mind, that makes it even more unfortunate that he is so angry, hate-filled and inarticulate. 

      I have always been fascinated by what makes a person become so bitter and angry.  Apparently, in men, it has something to do with the male version of menopause, when the body stops producing as much testosterone, leading men of Jones’ age to become anxious and angry.  Perhaps this increasing tendency towards anger (and its cousin hate) of late also has something to do with the population getting, on average, older?

    • BigAngryRon says:

      01:22pm | 18/10/11

      James1 this is a topic close to my own heart as I have found that I have ended up as a bitter angry mid 20’s guy. I think you will find that hate is borne of hopelessness, no hope of ever owning a home, having a family or being able to enjoy my life (since I will have to work through the entire thing) has left me with nothing but a burning pit of hatred that I am happy to dish out. This is just me of course, but I imagine there are a lot of other people out there reading all the reports of housing shortages and ever increasing prices and wondering why we even bother getting up in the morning

    • Chris L says:

      07:43pm | 18/10/11

      I’ve witnessed what you mean, James1, when people simply disagreeing are depicted as hateful. I’ve been accused of “attacking” religion just because I don’t buy into it.

      I think trying to provoke a fight is a last resort that too many people resort to first.

    • Lee says:

      10:13am | 19/10/11

      Big angry John, why does working mean you will never have a family. If your posting is indicative of your attitude to life it would be more lilely your negative hating view that would cause most prospective partners to run a mile. You are in your mid 20’s you have only just started in life. So you work, here is news for you, most people do have to work. This is nothing new. What is new is a 5 day week, 100 years ago you worked 6 days a week and got half a day off on Sunday. Recreation for anyone other than the rickh is a relatively new idea. If you are not happy with your work do something about it. You obviously don’t have any family commitments. Figure out what sort of work you would like to do (hopefully with better pay) and find out how to get the skills to get the job you want. i.e go to TAFE at night or an open Uni course. Stop blaming the world for your situation and try and change it yourself.
      What has happened is that politics uses the tactic of encouraging fear of others or new situations. It makes them cling to the devil they know. Part of the fear tactic is encouraging hatred of those that hold opposing views. If you hate someone you are less likely to objectively listen to thier views or care about thier welfare.  The powers that be have always held up groups of people that were the cause of what ever problem going around be it Jews, Blacks, Asians, Muslims, Communists, Refugees etc Journalism also plays a big part in mantaining and manipulating the fear hate cycle

    • Reggieman says:

      06:35am | 18/10/11

      Once again pure fiction from a leftists. Laying aside the fact that it is now on the public record that the supposed “death threats” towards Climate Scientists were essentially a fabrication (a verbal “threat” at a party and some loose references to “you’ll get yours”, all of them made years ago) the union movement has been at the forefront of most of the hate in this country over the last century. The BLF anyone?

      So a “shock jock” uses an inappropriate figure of speech. The reality is that hate is a leftists/unionists standard modus operandi, and no amount of wishful thinking on your part will make it otherwise. Look at the violence over the last few days at many of the “Occupy (insert city name/institution/landmark here)” demonstrations.

    • Jase says:

      06:40am | 18/10/11

      We are just as hateful as we were, 20 years ago, 200 years ago and 2000 years ago. What has changed is that the world is now much smaller, and moves much much faster.

      People take things personally when it has a direct affect on themselves. For example, you mention politicians with climate scientists. People are going to get very upset and probably hateful/spiteful when a group of people try to impose a policy which is going to directly affect their business, lifestyle and standard of living. The scientists and pretty much anyone who supports this policy, well they are going to fall into the same boat which everyone will love to hate.

      The same principal applies to anything which directly or indirectly affects us or our families/friends. The greater the effect the more hateful, spiteful etc we become. In the age of political correctness, it just suppresses our hate and anger more and more, it does not eliminate it.

      Throughout history we are without a doubt a very hateful bunch, how many people have been killed because of a hate of some kind? Countless millions?

      We are not going to all of a sudden become more tolerant, if anything the exact opposite is happening.

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      06:45am | 18/10/11

      You’re right there Ged with your topic, we all hate you and the Union movement and just wish you would go away! Do you really think that telling some ‘Climate Scientist’ that he will end up getting his/her ‘just desserts for lying to us is a credible ‘death threat’?

    • Tina says:

      06:50am | 18/10/11

      Isnt that what we are doing here? Anonymously voicing our opinion? I bet that most of us wouldnt say some things if we had to do it face to face.

    • VVS says:

      08:21am | 18/10/11

      I’m 6 foot 5 and 110 kg so can get away with saying a lot… and do smile

    • Markus says:

      08:43am | 18/10/11

      If worse comes to worse, the only thing that runs faster than my smart mouth are my legs.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      09:51am | 18/10/11

      correct there, all a bunch on keyboard warriors.

      Even better is the muslim haters who feel tough behind a screen but wouldnt come to Lakemba/Punchbowl/Bankstown etc

      Internet is both good and bad for that, means info can get out into the mainstream but bad in teh sense people hide behind the screen.

    • Fiona says:

      10:16am | 18/10/11

      Tina, you are so right. It sometimes makes me wonder what people are thinking below the civilized surface they present.

    • Kika says:

      02:00pm | 18/10/11

      Is your last name Laxman VVS?

    • VVS says:

      04:56pm | 18/10/11

      @ Kika

      You want my autograph…?

    • Kika says:

      06:38pm | 18/10/11

      @ VVS - Yes please! Wiki answers say you are around 6’2 so 6’5 must be right. Haha,.

    • Semi Concerned Citizen says:

      07:03am | 18/10/11

      Hey Ged,

      Unions are not haters are they? Death threats, sabotage and intimidation only come from management don’t they Ged. Hey Ged, do you have a credit card?

    • Mayday says:

      07:54am | 18/10/11

      Don’t forget the shovel on the front lawn.

    • marley says:

      07:13am | 18/10/11

      I’m not so sure the underlying issue is hatred.  I think it’s arrogance. 

      Too many people assume that there can only be one true way of looking at things, that their ideas on an issue must be correct, and that therefore anyone who doesn’t agree with them must be a liar or a fool (or a paid shill), to be treated not so much with hatred as contempt.  You only have to read The Punch to know that most of us have a deep-rooted conviction that we are wiser than anyone else, better informed, more aware, more cynical, even more moral.  Therefore, we are entitled to hurl insults, to sneer and to belittle our “opponents.” 

      We don’t discuss and explore ideas with one another, we simply take our positions and rant at anyone that doesn’t agree.  We don’t take the time to consider whether someone with whom we disagree might actually have a point.  We take our set positions and there we stand, immovable and immutable, unable to consider new information except through the filter of our own firm beliefs. 

      We don’t grant to those with differing beliefs the courtesy of listening to what they have to say, much less considering their arguments.  We cannot accept that they might be as well informed as we are, that they might be as well-intentioned, or that they might actually have good reasons for believing as they do.  It’s our way or the highway.

      We don’t listen to anything that doesn’t confirm our own views, and god forbid that we should actually try to learn from someone with whom we disagree.  We are right, and if you disagree, you are an inferior or a crook, worthy only of contempt. 

      I don’t know what happened to civility and reason, but they seem to be long gone.  And because of that, we feel quite free to treat other people and ideas with a disdain they may not deserve.  Arrogance,  more than hatred.

    • Tina says:

      07:37am | 18/10/11

      Yes, very true. I think though that the fact that we are here anonymously makes it easier to be rude and provoke others. The conversation would be more civilised if we were all sitting in the same room. But then some people would just think “what an id*ot” and not say it, instead smiling at you. Fake friendliness is bad too. But we should be able to see peoples circumstances and allow them to have their own believes and ideas.

    • Markus says:

      08:29am | 18/10/11

      Lack of tone and facial expression is a big cause of disagreements in online discussions.

      Big-noted statements or smart-arsed retorts that would normally be shrugged off with a chuckle and a “yeah, whatever mate…” are suddenly misconstrued as deep and malicious personal attacks, and the ongoing back and forth between posters just spirals downward from there.

      This seems especially true for generations (both younger and older) who did not experience the earlier days of the internet, and just don’t seem to grasp the concept that nobody actually believes 90% of the crap they post on the internet, especially the petty insults and deliberately infuriating statements.

    • Fiona says:

      10:22am | 18/10/11

      Best comment yet. I think too, those that make deliberately provocative statements and then sit back and watch the results, the trolls, are a relatively new phenomenon. They wouldn’t be able to go as far with it in real life, as their acquaintances would wise up and they don’t have as big an audience.

    • malohi says:

      06:52pm | 18/10/11

      You may find that the trolls see Marley’s point much better than the trolled.

      I like that post alot Marley, as usual, but there is never true civility and reason in an anonymous mob. Even in a reasoned argument, civility may only ever be a facade.

    • Bitten says:

      07:33am | 18/10/11

      Let me get this straight: Ged, a Union official, wants people to behave more civilly to each other, even if they have opposing points of view??

      Oh, that’s rich. Going to issue that memo to your colleagues Ged darling? I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning…

    • jag says:

      07:51am | 18/10/11

      We are seeing death threats to climate scientists, a resurgence of shock jocks on the radio, Facebook groups set up with the sole purpose of “hating” reality TV contestants or celebrities. Add that to a political culture characterised by hyperbole, derision and negativity

      Union intimidation, shovels left outside people’s houses, leftist idiots ‘occupying’ places and abusing all and sundry that don’t agree with their strange, warped wordly views. ABC morning presenters portraying Abbott as a mad lunatic.

      Yes, maybe Ged is right. Just selective.

      Anyway Ged, you can kiss your safe seat away, the ALP is toast.

    • Big Jay says:

      07:52am | 18/10/11

      People hate, cause while they earn more money, living standards are going backwards for the vast majority. At least the majority of younger people (say teenagers through to mid-30’s).

      - High cost of housing
      - Not enough infrastructure to support growing population
      - Cost of necessities (food, utilities, petrol) skyrocketing, but no action taken because its masked in the CPI by falling prices of luxuries (like holidays and consumer electronics)
      - University expenses also getting exhorbitant

      The government will import workers into the areas that are already oversupplied, such as accounting, IT, hairdressing, commercial cooking, nursing but nobody in building trades so there is no upswing in production of roads, rails, or housing. So more expensive housing, education for young people, crowded trains or traffic jams, enforcing delays on starting a family, what would you expect to happen?

    • Anna C says:

      07:57am | 18/10/11

      A lot of the anger and hatred out there is born out of frustration at witnessing the morons in charge of our government wasting all our money and trying to ruin our beautiful country and our way of life. Peoples’ patience has run out. Call a bloody election now!

    • MarkS says:

      08:03am | 18/10/11

      I call bullshit & hyperbole. Your examples prove the point. The debate in relation to conscription in WW1 & Vietnam got very nasty.

      In regard to the conscription debate, “Treachery”, “Worm”, “Dog”, “Blood vote”, “Death Ballot”. The level of hate was extreme; police raided anti-conscription publications, jailed protestors, neither side respected the other whatsoever.

      In relation to Vietnam, “baby killers”, massive protests, screaming abuse at returning troops.

      The level of hate has if anything is much lower, more swear words in the media, but that is only a reflection of community mores not a signpost of the level of hate.

    • Kate says:

      08:57am | 18/10/11

      ICB as well, but mainly based on the ‘road rage’ example. The actual term “road rage” may not have been around 20 years ago but the behaviour certainly was.

    • Labor is Toxic says:

      03:40pm | 20/10/11

      “We didn’t start the fire!!!”

    • Jay Santos says:

      08:04am | 18/10/11

      No one does hate quite like the misandrists behind the Ernie Awards.

      Didn’t see that anywhere in Ged’s ‘bipartisan’ discussion above.

      I note also that Ged avoids any discussion of the endless and repeated lies that may possibly foment or incite any such “hate”.

      It would seem that the author may in fact be confusing “hate” with a heretofore unsatisfactory level of public engagement and discourse from Joe and Jane Public, who are now much more media savvy - and therefore more expressive - than the likes of Ged Kearney give them credit for.

    • Erick says:

      09:53am | 18/10/11

      @Jay Santos - Good point. Feminists have been spreading hate against men for decades.

    • andye says:

      10:14am | 18/10/11

      @Jay Santos - Probably because they arent very well known? I had never heard of them.

    • marley says:

      12:36pm | 18/10/11

      @andye - I did a quick wiki on the Ernie awards.  Have a look at the gold Ernie winners over the years, and the statements that won them this illustrious award. 

      To pick just one, a judge was awarded the gold Ernie for saying, “(upon imposing a bond upon a man convicted of raping a 12-year old girl), “Our jails would be full if we locked up everyone who did this.”  Now personally, I don’t think you have to be a misandrist to think that’s a pretty appalling sentiment in anyone, never mind a judge, and that it is fully deserving of public ridicule.

    • Frank says:

      08:10am | 18/10/11

      but isnt the right to voice our hate of a person apart of a democratic society? the real difference is that other people have a chance to agree or disagree with that sentiment and when the person is taking that too far then our legal system can be used…This ‘lets all be nice to eachother’ bullshit is just that BULLSHIT! being honest about how we feel about a situation or person is just apart of how we humans communicate….and for the record anyone who thinks exploiting children for ratings on a cooking show is “fun and exciting” should have a long hard look at themselves (Murdoch’s and Ten)...once this show is over these children will have to go back to school where the children there will not be as supportive and “nice” as the judges and they will be bullied…kids can be cruel and the world can be a cruel place….just get used to it….just look at those childstars of the 80’s and 90’s for an example

    • Samuel says:

      08:13am | 18/10/11

      “It’s about whether we go for the easy option of hating, or the tougher option of trying to understand the people we disagree with, and why they think the way they do.”

      I wonder how many times you’ve sat down with someone opposed to the Carbon Tax and sceptical of human-induced climate change and tried to understand them?

      It’s funny how the shock-jocks and climate ‘deniers’ are painted as the ones spreading the hate, when they’re not talking about our children dying in a blazing furnace or raging seas.

    • ts says:

      08:38am | 18/10/11

      ” A carbon tax is the biggest change to our economy since the GST, but the level of anger around the debate has been far higher.”

      the gst was meant to replace a raft of taxes with one tax and be relatively cost nuetral. you may have been for it or against it but it at least had a logical economic argument.

      a carbon tax is us paying for something that will make no difference to climate change, will affect our global competitiveness and will cost the australian taxpayer a lot of money down the line (the government tax cuts sop to the taxpayer will eventually stop but the carbon tax will run on for perpetuity)...and… the only reason its going ahead is to prop up the minority government support.

      so the trigger for anger is easy to see. we are wasting taxpayers money for political expediency, with little ideological and public support.

    • Peter says:

      09:18am | 18/10/11

      @Ts

      the gst was meant to replace a raft of taxes with one tax and be relatively cost nuetral. you may have been for it or against it but it at least had a logical economic argument.

      GST raised CPI by how much again?

    • andye says:

      10:18am | 18/10/11

      @ts - “a carbon tax is us paying for something that will make no difference to climate change”

      Why? I have argued the case a few times for how the mechanism works to affect carbon output, but the opposing argument seems to be “it wont work” without any reasoning.

      “and will cost the australian taxpayer a lot of money down the line (the government tax cuts sop to the taxpayer will eventually stop but the carbon tax will run on for perpetuity)”

      How is the opposition plan going to be paid for?

    • ts says:

      10:50am | 18/10/11

      @peter

      over time the gst has been cost neutral. its a ridiculous simplification to say that there was a one off CPI increase at the time of its introduction. it resulted in approx a one off 3% increase in the 3rd quarter of 2000 and no significant lag in increases after that time. the one off increase was offset by tax cuts and increases in pensions. the carbon tax will be offset inititially by tax cuts but is starting at its lowest threshold and the plan is for it to be raised with time to meet more “ambitious” targets.

      @andye

      the mechansism will affect carbon output *in australia*. it is ineffective because there are no such mechansisms for the biggest polluters. therefore the general worldwide carbon emissions will be reduced by point something of point something of total world output. meanwhile china will increase its output if it continues to grow at its current rate and our pointless exercise will not actually have reduced the world’s total output by anything.

    • DragonLass says:

      01:50pm | 18/10/11

      @ts
      Your argument that the carbon tax is pointless because other countries aren’t doing anything is flawed.
      Firstly, other countries ARE doing something, including China & India.  Some already have a carbon tax or an ETS, while others are in varying progress of implementing.
      Secondly, we don’t control other countries, we can only control what we do.  We are now set to do our part and others will follow.  You can’t sit around on your hands waiting for everyone else to do something.  It’s like being in a primary school class and saying that you aren’t going to do your homework because nobody else is.  Nobody wins then.

    • andye says:

      04:04pm | 18/10/11

      @ts - I find this to be interesting logic.

      We are using 4 times as much carbon per person as China. Sure they produce 24% of the worlds carbon, but they are 20% of the worlds population. They are currently actually pretty close to average. If they were to produce as much carbon as us (per capita), they would be producing equivalent to 100% of the worlds carbon.

      Your argument is “we are small”.

      My argument is “we are selfish”.

      If you want to argue that it is OK to be selfish and use more (on average, as individuals) than anyone else because we are so small it barely matters then thats fine - but at least have the guts to admit it.

    • ts says:

      11:32am | 19/10/11

      @anyde

      sorry had to get back to work.

      your comment is that I’m gutless for not admitting that I am selfish. gee - thanks for the gratuitous insults.

      nowhere did I say I’m not selfish. I am selfish with the way my taxes are spent - does that satisfy you?

      nowehere did I argue our superiority per capita - my sole argument is the difference we make is no difference at all and I for one do not want to pay that price with my money - I have other things that I rank as more important than spending it on what I see as a pointless symbolic act.

    • Hoodys says:

      08:28am | 18/10/11

      If you take religion out of society obviously citizens are going to turn on eachother and be guided by their base impulses….twas always thus, and always thus will be.

    • Kate says:

      08:55am | 18/10/11

      Oh right. Because nobody ever uses religion as an excuse to hate other groups of people.

    • Michael says:

      09:39am | 18/10/11

      Hoodys, it wont be that way when people have the courage to help the person beside them instead of turning their back to help themselves

    • amy says:

      01:03pm | 18/10/11

      weak…real weak hoodys

      the reason religion has been taken out of society is that majority have realised what BS it is and dont want/need it in their lives, I dont see any glossing over that

    • Rev says:

      08:29am | 18/10/11

      Jesus Ged, have you ever attempted to pen a balanced article?

      I understand when you’re harping on about union issues that you’re going to be of a certain POV, just like someone from big business would be the opposite. 

      But when you’re commenting on something general like ‘hate’, feel free to throw in examples from your own side of the fence to.

      You say you’re interested by the comments that appear on this site…so how about you prove me wrong and re-write a balanced article?

    • subotic says:

      12:06pm | 18/10/11

      @Rev, are you on drugs sunshine? Asking a union leader to have a balanced and objective point of view towards something? Anything?

      You’ve never met or been spoken to by a union comrade have you Rev….

    • Rev says:

      03:35pm | 18/10/11

      subotic:  Although I am clearly not of the union persuasion, I have had the pleasure of knowing a few such people who were pretty well balanced.

      Just giving Ged the opportunity to walk the walk etc.

    • subotic says:

      08:31am | 18/10/11

      @Ged, I wouldn’t waste my hate on the unions. They don’t deserve my valuable hate. They don’t deserve anything actually, and certainly not a free voice in the Punch. Go away….

    • fairsfair says:

      08:42am | 18/10/11

      “We are seeing death threats to climate scientists” OH NOES!

      Aren’t we also seeing death threats to the head of Qantas during an industrial dispute involving a union?

      Hypocrite.

    • AdamC says:

      08:46am | 18/10/11

      Also, wasn’t that death threats to climate scientists story exposed as a complete beat up?

    • Vicki Hodges says:

      08:47am | 18/10/11

      Fairsfair - Here, Here!! As usual its Hypocrisy at its best.

    • NicoleG says:

      08:57am | 18/10/11

      But that’s different fairs because, well, just because. Ged says so.

    • Erick says:

      09:01am | 18/10/11

      Don’t forget the recent death threats to a union official from rival unionists. The victim was later hospitalised after anxiety attacks.

      You’d think a union leader would have remembered that one.

    • Bitten says:

      10:14am | 18/10/11

      Sssshhh fairs…you’re pointing out the obvious and Ged won’t be able to handle it!

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      12:31pm | 18/10/11

      I’m sure she’ll be here any minute to provide a reasonable explanation….

    • Ben C says:

      12:52pm | 18/10/11

      @ Bitten

      Someone obviously hasn’t told her that it’s the Festival of Obvious Ideas.

    • Bitten says:

      01:15pm | 18/10/11

      @ Ben C: Dang! That was SOOO obvious!! :D

    • Michael says:

      08:44am | 18/10/11

      There is nothing new under the sun today, if the world you percieve is a hateful world then you must stop creating hate in your heart for the hate to stop infecting your world.

      Or

      Just continue saying the hate is over there—> or over here<—whilst it really exists in your heart, or your mind as a belief that others hate so your world is hateful.

      Ask a child if they think the world is hateful, i mean a small child maybe 5 or 6, not yet indoctrinated by it’s parents politics.

      Want hope? try to see the world through a child’s eyes, hope abounds.

    • biff says:

      08:51am | 18/10/11

      Hey Ged ever heard of an alleged politician by the name of PJ Keating? He wrote the rule book on how to be uncivil.

    • mick says:

      09:09am | 18/10/11

      Hate is the bastion of those amongst us who are too illiterate to better express ourselves, who have lost reason and who are often not heard by those in power and find this is a suitable alternative to be heard.

      I personally find ‘hate’ a very bogan way on behaving.  It is a sign of a community which has abandoned the God whom we once all permitted to be at the centre of our lives.  The results are a society filled with self and hate is but one of the attributes which comes with the territory.  What is sad is that the media gives this bad trait air time and we can all recall the images in the carbon tax debate; it was disgusting and not good for others to see and potentially be influenced by.

    • marley says:

      12:41pm | 18/10/11

      I’ve met some very well educated, highly intelligent people who were great haters.  I’ve met some poorly educated people of average intelligence who were respectful of others and of opinions and ideas which differed from their own.  This isn’t an issue of education or social class.  And the attitude of people who consider themselves non-bogans towards their bogan neighbours is rather clear evidence of my point.

    • cybacaT says:

      09:15am | 18/10/11

      I agree there is more venom and hate in the public discourse these days.  However you ruined your article by shamelessly pointing out attacks from one side of politics while conveniently ignoring the other.  Howard suffered the most relentless string of hateful commentary and attacks I’ve seen in Australian politics, yet apparently was fair game because he’s a Liberal.

      Meanwhile, Juliar Gillard and Bob Brown have stoked the fires constantly on the issues you’ve highlighted - yet get away with a clean sheet.  Try telling the whole story next time.

    • Brad McT says:

      11:42am | 18/10/11

      Gillard/Brown are the ones causing the spread of hate in this country!

    • RyaN says:

      09:29am | 18/10/11

      Hate is a natural reaction to being barefaced lied to Ged. Perhaps if you dropkicks could for once show the electorate some respect and act with actual honour then perhaps people might not hate you so much.

      Fact is your lot lied your way into government, you lie to the people, you act against the wishes of the majority, in your case your members, and pretty much will do anything to benefit yourselves regardless of how it affects Australia and Australians.

      And you have the nerve to come on here and whine about hate, you are the ones creating the hate and disharmony in Australia today.

    • Vaunted says:

      09:31am | 18/10/11

      I can understand when frustrated members of the public sometimes feel justified in exhibiting disrespect to certain MPs and MLAs, particularly when some of the most prominent parliamentary luminaries obviously hold no respect for the opinions and preferences of vast swathes of their electorate. Witness also the kind of abusive and derogatory labelling recently doled out by certain Ministers of the Crown, aimed specifically at denigrating and marginalising legitimately protesting citizens, some of them senior enough to be their parents, many of whom had travelled thousands of km on their own limited budgets to make what they considered to be a valid point. And let’s not forget the almost daily denigration of Prime Minister Howard, including symbolic hangings and the depiction of him as a Nazi. And don’t even get me started on the kind of putrid gutter-abuse generated by certain well-known leftist comedic guttersnipes, one of whom was justifiably fired by The Age for one of her efforts but was then restored to continue her verbal atrocities with the publicly funded ABC. Pick up any political blog you like Ged, you’ll soon get the drift of what side of the political spectrum the vast bulk of derogatory ad hominem abuse comes from; perhaps you could start by having your appeal for more civility signed off by Paul Keating who probably started it all, and circulating it at the next ALP/Greens policy conference.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      09:45am | 18/10/11

      99% of the comments on this article have proven Ged’s point- civility is dead and hate is on the increase. Bring on your hate, Liberal fanboys and fangirls, I dine on it for breakfast, lunch and dinner…...

    • fairsfair says:

      10:25am | 18/10/11

      In all seriousness though Shane, do you not think that rather than “hate” increasing “preciousness” is instead? For instance, my comment above. You can read it with a shitted off tone in your head and it sounds horrible, when I actually typed it with a completely moderate tone. I can interpret your comment as a light hearded jibe (which I am) or I can puts on mah frowny voice and it turns into something different.

      I don’t think that there is anymore hate than there ever has been. I just think these days there are more people actively seeking to take offence to and find hate in any other statement made by an individual. That is the real issue here, and it is quite sad.

      Nobody can accept anything at face value anymore, because they are constantly analysing the subtext, the tone and the inuendo.

      On a side note, I don’t think you have to be a big L Liberal to recognise the hypocricy in the above article. It is rather ignorant to the bigger picture and criticising that is not “hate”, it is a genuine query. However Ged seems to think that any questioner is on the Hateraid and that is where it kind of stick in my craw.

    • Erick says:

      10:40am | 18/10/11

      @Shane from Melbourne - Your deliberate omission of hate from Labor fanboys and fangirls only proves my own point: Lefties are oblivious to their own hatred.

    • AdamC says:

      10:47am | 18/10/11

      So pointing out someone’s hypocrisy and lack of credibility on an issue is now a form of hate?

    • palone says:

      11:44am | 18/10/11

      @Erick. Is that all lefties or just the ladies. You are narrowing the field you see. You were guilty often of putting all women down, (not to their face of course), but now is it just lefty girls you hate?
      See what I mean, you nasty fellow.
      Personally I don’t hate anyone. I despise some people, I’m ashamed of some people, and I despair of others. But there are many I love, even some I think are sometimes wrong. And that, for me, is what matters.

    • Erick says:

      12:05pm | 18/10/11

      @palone - I have never “put all women down”. Only the people who hate me say that.

      Haters like you.

    • amy says:

      01:14pm | 18/10/11

      @Erick

      “@palone - I have never “put all women down”. Only the people who hate me say that.

      Haters like you.”

      well you certainly seem to have it in for the feminiests…in almost EVERY article regardless of its topic

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:20pm | 18/10/11

      Bipartisanship- Dead.
      Civility during Question Time- Dead.
      Respect for Prime Minister (regardless of party leader)- Dead

      @Erick- Lefty hate isn’t as much fun. Their hate is weak and pathetic (although the anarchists in Rome might prove me wrong, Occupy Wall St doesn’t) I’m looking forward to Tony Abbott becoming Prime Minister. The level of political discourse is going be even lower…...

    • fairsfair says:

      01:26pm | 18/10/11

      *sigh*

      I don’t know how many times we have to go through why Erick turns any topic into one of gender.

    • fairsfair says:

      01:32pm | 18/10/11

      ... and he isn’t even the one who brought it up!

    • Erick says:

      01:35pm | 18/10/11

      @amy - “well you certainly seem to have it in for the feminiests”

      Yes, I certainly do have it in for the feminists, because they hate men and I’m a man.

      However, most women are not feminists, and not all feminists are women. Your error lies is in conflating the two.

    • Kika says:

      01:57pm | 18/10/11

      Erick - YOU DO hate women! This is the funniest thing! The minute someone questions your logic on your points raised you just deny it and look the other way.

      You believe that men are discriminated against by women. You believe every woman is a misandrist and ready to get the claws out and rip a man to shreds in the family court etc. You believe ALL men are innocent parties to a divorce and are never hopeless dads. By saying that you are inherently AGAINST women because by saying ALL men are good you imply that ALL women are bad.

      I’ve never ever read one comment made by you admitting that not all women are btches, not all women are misandrists, not all women make false rape accusations, not all women are child murderers but all you get is the opposite, women are most likely to kill their kids, women are more likely to be violent against their husbands.

      Where is the balance?

    • marley says:

      02:15pm | 18/10/11

      @Erick -You’re quite right when you say that not all women are feminists.You’re also correct that not all feminists are women.  Where you’re wrong is in believing that all feminists hate men.  That’s no more accurate than to say that if you’re proud of your ethnic origin/race/religion you must necessarily hate other ethnicities/races/religions.  Some do, some don’t.  It’s important to see people as the individuals they are, rather than as the label you apply to them.

    • fairsfair says:

      02:18pm | 18/10/11

      Kika - you are clearly reading different comments to the rest of us.

    • Erick says:

      05:27pm | 18/10/11

      @marley - You’re one of my favourite commenters. Ever reasonable, even when the issue gets heated. I may not always reply to you, but I always read and appreciate your comments.

      Anyway, in this case, I’d half agree and half disagree. Yes, it’s true that not all self-identified feminists hate men. However, it is also true that the fundamental belief of feminism - that men in general oppress women in general - constitutes hatred of men.

      So I’ll just leave it there, for now.

    • marley says:

      06:20pm | 18/10/11

      @Erick - fair enough, we’ll agree to disagree (not for the first time, nor the last time, I’m sure) - and thanks.

    • LJ Dots says:

      07:11pm | 18/10/11

      Just a little off topic, but since this comment is intended for the moderators I might just get away with it.

      May I suggest a Punch/Counter Punch article authored by Erick and Marley.

    • Ian Freely says:

      09:57am | 18/10/11

      Well said Ged. The rise and rise of hate in politics is doing nothing more than turning real debate into hollow shouting matches. It doesn’t matter which ‘side’ of politics you’re on, we all have a responsibility to be civil in our discourse.

      There is no point in continuing on with what is labelled ‘debate’ in Australia when it’s nothing more than hate and bile.

    • Fred says:

      10:04am | 18/10/11

      I think there’s definitely more hate in the world these days. In my opinion it all started around the mid to late 90s.

      I think a large part of it is because of this new age propaganda that we are all equal. So pretty much everyone thinks they deserve the good life regardless of their skills and station in life.

      At least half the people aren’t really human anymore. At least that’s the case in Sydney.

      As for the recent political debate well I agree that’s been shocking.

    • neil says:

      11:05am | 18/10/11

      Unions and Labor are an aberration of the twentyth century, they are past their use by date which is why their memberships are falling faster than Gillards poll ratings.

      People like Ged are dinosaurs well on their way to extinction.

    • Kika says:

      02:14pm | 18/10/11

      Hey I’d join my union if their fees weren’t so damn expensive!

    • pete says:

      11:28am | 18/10/11

      sites like this thrive off it; then bemoan the state of discourse.

    • Warwick says:

      11:29am | 18/10/11

      I am informed that Australia soldiers who fought in the first world war were called “five-bob-a-day murderers” by the Aussie opponents of our involvement in that war.

      Had I been around at that time I hope I would have adopted an anti-war stance but I hope I would never have used vile, hate filled language like this.

    • Paul says:

      11:30am | 18/10/11

      The problem seems to be anonymity. If we all were to identify ourslves on this blog (name, address, etc), could it be that the amount of bile would reduce?

    • Jackie says:

      11:31am | 18/10/11

      I dont really care about Geds politics but she does have a point, we are living in an increasingly angry society,  We are all getting so rude, whether its displayed in rage filled comments or in the supermarket car-park, anger is “in”. Shouting at check out girls, sending anon death threats to pollies, business people & union officials is the new black.  People are so proud of their vile behaviour they invest in “Bitch” stickers for their cars.
      LIfe is short, in the word of that great Gen X movie “Bill & Teds Excellent Adeventure” :
      ” Be excellent to each other”

    • Bris Jack says:

      11:36am | 18/10/11

      Did it ever occur to you it may be a reaction to being ignored and treated like fools by the Goverment.
      Shock jocks do at least listen.
      I am sick and tired of the carbon tax spin and it being compared to the GST.
      You are aware John Howard took the GST to an election and I think you are labor precious and showing symptions of tunnel vision.

    • Kika says:

      01:59pm | 18/10/11

      He also took it to the election promising we’d all pay LESS for things because the standard 10% would apply across the board. Did we? No. Paul Keating was the first to bring it up back in the 80’s, mind you.

    • Tator says:

      06:51pm | 18/10/11

      Kika,
      obviously because CPI rose by less than 10% in the third quarter of 2000,somethings did reduce in price otherwise there would have been a 10% rise in CPI as “everything rose in price’

    • jf says:

      09:06pm | 18/10/11

      Kika says: 02:59pm | 18/10/11

      “Paul Keating was the first to bring it up back in the 80’s, mind you.”

      And then opposed it when it became politically expedient.

    • Kassandra says:

      11:57am | 18/10/11

      Poor Ged. If you can’t take the heat then stay out of the kitchen dear.

    • Dash says:

      12:33pm | 18/10/11

      How tolerant are the union movement? You forgot, dirt covered shovels on doorsteps!

      There are a number of issues with the carbon tax which distinguish it from other issues. In fact it’s a joke to try to compare it with the GST.

      The PM and Wayne Swan both lied to the Australian people on the eve of last election about the tax. And even if they changed their minds, unlike the GST, they did not have the guts to take it to an election. They were seen to cave in to pressure from the minorities and as a consequence, ignore the will of the people. That is seen as a slap in the face to our democracy which is by definition, by the majority for the majority.

      Then there is the fact that after being promised a citizens assembly on the matter, we ended up with a 2 party committee of ALP yes men. All members aligned to the ALP green coalition on the matter. That meant over 50% of the population had no representation.

      Then to make matters worse, the policy became an exercise in wealth redistribution with the introduction of a compensation scheme which discriminates against Australian families on the basis of their income, not on how they pollute. And a policy which sees the big polluters of the coal and steel industry compensated.

      Not to mention the fact that the coal which we will sell to China in increasing quantities over the next 10 years will do much much more damage to the environment than any minor benefit this tax could ever hope to have.

      In three years time we will see the introduction of an ETS which will force the nations wealth offshore to the sellers of carbon credits on the promise that a tree will be planted in Asia or Europe. It’s madness.

      No Ged, people deserve to be angry about this tax. It is not trivial. It is a huge fraud on the people of Australia. Socialism dressed up as Environmentalism.

      Why is it OK for the union movement to organise rallies to Parliament house that result in the destruction of public buildings and the injury of several security guards, yet as soon as someone stands up to your ALP buddies, you write a piece about how we’re all nasty complainers.

      The union movement should be the last ones to lecture on this.

    • Bryan says:

      12:35pm | 18/10/11

      Ged, read the responses here. What can sense in the people responding to comments? Frustration, class division, powerlessness! Why do you think that this has become so apparent? I’ll give you a hint - the ALP/Greens debacle and the constant bickering and blaming. With everybody taking sides to best benefit their ideals.

      The fact that you - as a senior Union person - who aligns herself with everything that the ALP say and does and rubbishes anything that the LNP does is not helpful, in fact it is destructive. It is not helpful for the people that you represent, the businesses that employ these workers or Australian workers in general, which include those that do not belong to the ACTU.

    • Kipling says:

      12:52pm | 18/10/11

      Funnily enough mate, I think you absolutely captured exactly half of the cultprits underpinning the causes of frustration, class division and powerlessness.
      Of course your demonstrated ideological barrow is all to clear as to why you missed half the problem.

    • Kipling says:

      12:36pm | 18/10/11

      ” but this time have a longer think than usual before you post! “

      I absolutely and utterly hate it that you made this a demand rather than a respectful request with a please and a question mark…. It actively discouraged my thinking.

    • Dash says:

      12:41pm | 18/10/11

      If you are a union heavy it pays to have a short memory!

      Does anyone remember the “cavalcade to Canberra” in 1996??

      The protest began with senior Australian Trade Union officials including ACTU President Jennie George and Assistant Secretary Greg Combet, as well as senior members of the Australian Labor Party. The protest deteriorated into violent action when a group of demonstrators attacked the entrance to Parliament. Around 90 personnel were injured —including lacerations, sprains, and head and eye injuries. Damage to the forecourt and foyer of Parliament was initially estimated at $75,000 and the Parliamentary shop was looted. Nine rioters were arrested and charged with a variety of offences. Yet hold up a sign at a carbon tax rally and you’re an extremist??? WTF?

      Hmmm, seems if you are a union member or a lefty, violence and hate are OK but if you are someone concerned about the carbon tax and voice that opposition peacefully, you’re a very bad person. What utter nonsense!!!

    • Walter says:

      01:18pm | 18/10/11

      Hate started in the Union Movement where it continues. Let’s see, which female union official was given the love by union members by leaving a shovel outside her door. Ged what does that mean?

    • LuthienNienna says:

      01:18pm | 18/10/11

      I laughed when the media reported that Alan Joyce had recieved death threats. Obviously someone in the Qantas PR department was in a dramatic mood that morning and decided to cut up the letters in their morning’s Daily Telegraph…

    • Andrew says:

      01:22pm | 18/10/11

      According to Parliament House history, the biggest “hate” event was from none other than the….ACTU!

      To quote:

      On 19 August 1996 a crowd estimated at about 30 000 persons moved in at least four separate streams towards the lawn fronting Parliament House. This was an Australian Council of Trade Unions-sponsored demonstration against the Howard Government’s proposed industrial relations legislation, as well as the expected spending cuts in the Budget due to be brought down the following day. Despite a union-police agreement that people at the protest would keep off the Parliament House Forecourt, members of one group, apparently largely unaware of the union-police ‘deal’, chose not to join the main rally on the lawns, and sprinted across the Forecourt to be met by a police barrier. In the affray that followed, the protestors pushed up to the Parliament House doors where, using sledge hammers, metal pipes and other instruments, they forced their way inside. As well as damage to the doors, the foyer was smeared with blood and paint, and the Parliament House shop vandalised. Forty-one protestors were arrested, and approximately 90 police injured. Many visitors were unable for a time to get out of the building.

    • Shane says:

      01:32pm | 18/10/11

      That’s a pretty biased article. Where were you when Howard was copping worse than Gillard, or people were being beaten up for daring to hear what Hanson had to say? Why didn’t I see you complaining when global warming believers were calling for sceptics to be jailed, bashed or killed because scepticism was a crime against humanity? Where was the criticism of unionists smashing their way through parliment causing hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage a decade ago? Why is it that people on the left of a debate can see no wrong with threats, hate and violence by their supporters but as soon as the other side of the political spectrum starts to use tried and true left wing tactics you’re up in arms about it?

    • braunman says:

      01:35pm | 18/10/11

      Hate: It’s all the rage.

    • Kika says:

      02:04pm | 18/10/11

      Ba-doom-tish!

    • Kika says:

      02:08pm | 18/10/11

      I think a LOT of people today have short fuses because we’re just sick of everything. Life is so chaotic. We spend our lives at work, for what? To be jipped around like an dispensable scrap of junk and to work hard just for the bank to take all your money on your mortgage or loans and you go home and the work doesn’t stop. Then you’ve got a whole world on the balance of tipping into recession, wars that don’t end, fuel prices ever rising, politicians who don’t stand for anything but themselves and their jobs for the next 3 years (and their lovely superannuation). Then to top it off everyone else is feeling the same as you so you feel like screaming but to no one but a brick wall. No wonder everyone is so angry! Stupid husband said he almost got into 2 fights at the pub the other night. He’s never been in a fight but for some reason he got argumentative after drinking and was in a fighting sort of mood. Far out…  this is the sort of thing which happens before Mad Max. Right?

    • Matthew says:

      02:33pm | 18/10/11

      When labor was pushing their carbon tax, the media asked Julia why she was pushing through with it when 80% disagree with it.  That’s why there’s hate, she clearly hears the stats but ignores them and does it anyway.

      How can you have a reasonable debate when those that you are debating against shove their fingers in their ears and just repeatedly say “lalalala”.  There isn’t a parent alive that wouldn’t want to smack their kid for doing it, so why wouldn’t someone want to smack their leader for doing it?

      The climate change scientists do the same, they don’t want to hear about cost/benefit or who’s to blame, or what’s best to satisfy everyone.  It’s just “the world is warming by X amount.” which is narrow minded.  What’s worse is they’re pushing those that were undecided away because they don’t want to provide the details so they then become the “deniers” and become hateful when really they just want the facts.

    • Adam K. says:

      03:44pm | 18/10/11

      The reason I am hating is because I am treated like and alien in my own country.

      I have to speak in a foreign tongue just get groceries.
      I am bashed and spat on by gangs of Jihadi youths, I am threatened with death and the rape of my daughter. Police do nothing, pollies do nothing.

      The only way to get your message out is not to gentily tap some-one on the shoulder, you have to hit them with a sledgehammer!

    • John says:

      10:51pm | 18/10/11

      The order that rules over western society wants to desolve all the borders, promote multiculturalism, mass immigration and turn the west into some communist idealist utopia. When the crime rates in western country’s increase because of the immigration and multiculturalism the media which is controlled by the order makes sure the crimes are censored, the police are told to tolerate it. So in sense at the end of day, majority are feed a false perception on the joys of multiculturalism and immigration.  This is happening in London, Paris and other majority European city’s. They are experiencing huge amounts of crime, rape, but the politicians and the media which is controlled by the order makes sure they turn a blind eye. Perfect example was London which almost went up in smoke a few weeks ago, before this event the politicians were stating it was a safe city with muggings and stabbings as a weekly occurrence. Europe’s last home is to vote far-right, Nationalist parties supporting any other party will just slowly lead to more and more destruction of Europe.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      04:17pm | 18/10/11

      My academic theory is that the level of hate in Australia rose in proportion to the dominance of the American paradigm- the winner takes all mode of politics, economics and social culture. The English institutions upon which Australia is based are ill suited to cope with such a paradigm.

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      06:37pm | 18/10/11

      Ged would you care to explain yourself;

      “Home Affairs Minister Brendan O’Connor said trafficking and slavery had become a problem across numerous sectors of the Australian economy with a growing number of trafficking victims being identified in industries other than the sex trade.
      He announced a federal government grant of more than $485,000 to unions, employer groups and non-government organisations to raise awareness of the issue and provide support to victims.
      The funds will be distributed to the Australian Red Cross, Asian Women at Work, the Australian Hotels Association, the ACTU and the CFMEU (WTF);

      You people really do have your snouts in tyhe trough. At least i now know how the cfmeu pay its fines from the ABCC

    • Kika says:

      06:40pm | 18/10/11

      Maybe we’ve all watched too many episodes of Jerry Springer where we just want to get all up in people’s faces secretly but our inner British manners tells us that its inappropriate, so we vent on these blogs to ‘vent our spleens’

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      09:33pm | 18/10/11

      Jerry!!, Jerry!!, Jerry!! On tonight’s episode: Transvestite Husbands Who Have Slept With Their Wife’s Best Friend…..

    • Ryan says:

      06:58pm | 18/10/11

      “This civility is one of the things that has distinguished Australia from other countries” - well when the social engineers forced political correctness and multiculturalism at the expense of maintaining and embracing the Australian culture - that’s what you get, something else.  Sure Australian culture has benefitted in some ways in regards to equal rights, but in general it has lost it’s former essence.  What people today think is patriotism is just boganism - idiots who have devalued the Southern Cross by sticking it on the back windows of Commodores and tattooed on themselves and showing it off while engaging in loutish, drunken behaviour every Australia day.

    • Carz says:

      07:25pm | 18/10/11

      In any argument there are three types of people: those for, those against and those who stand the middle ground of don’t care/doesn’t affect me/apathy. The problem is that the fors and againsts are too busy trying to convince each other that “I am right, you are wrong, that’s all there is to it.” that they forget that the middle ground are usually the silent majority. It is that group of people who needs to be won over.

    • John says:

      10:34pm | 18/10/11

      It’s all theater, left and right, liberal and labor, democrats or republicans. The reality is that crooks from the US started this entire carbon tax swindle. What i recall it was al-gore and the reality is all these politicians in the US are all in it for their 30 pieces of silver. It’s no surprise you have all these corrupt folk in the US politics..Hilary…cough. They do as they are told without any moral consideration to their actions. Eg like Carpet bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and get go live in front of corrupt lying mainstream media and spew their lies about fictional enemy’s and rationalizing their satanic policy’s. The reality is the West is ruled by an order of international bankers, these are the puppet masters for all the crook politicians, media barons. They are the root cause of western moral depravity, wars, fictional enemy’s, communist EU, multiculturalism, immigration and the carbon tax.

    • John says:

      11:03pm | 18/10/11

      Can we please not legitimize far-left, left and the right, these wings of politics are controlled by the international bankers. The only legitimate political view of the world is a people’s, nationalist conservative view. This the view that is suppressed by the order. The other political view points are engineered by the international bankers, and used against each other to maintain the illusion of democracy, and to also suppress the legitimate political views, which are supported by the people, nationalist conservatives. eg TEA party and the Nationalist parties in Europe the rest are just manipulated and played against each other, with their skewed world political views.

      This what the order does, promotes the feeble minded, nonthreatening political parties and groups to have a voice so that they can maintain the charade of this fake democracy. They also use the media to dumb down the mass’s, with sports, mediocre tv shows. When the majority are engineered to be feeble minded, this makes it allot easier for the party to rule over us.

    • Kipling says:

      06:03am | 19/10/11

      But in essence what you are saying is that the “party” does not in fact rule over us, the International banks do….

      I point this out because you directly contradict yourself in your closing sentence.

      Further, I would suggest that it is not ONLY the World Bank and the IMF but also the largest Corporations have purchased more than their fare share of the corporate process.

      I guess at some level this fuels hate, but I am curious about how people choose to behave and, more importantly, how they choose to justify/excuse otherwise abhorant behaviours in the name of a cause, teaching a lesson, because someone else they don’t agree with did it first….

      That is the sum of why our demonstrated behaviour both publicly and in print is so appalling, we allow ourselves to excuse our own behaviour with childish justifications.

    • John says:

      09:21am | 19/10/11

      The party are the international banks, they influence the media and the western politicians. The west is an order, you call them what you like cabal, oligarchy, they are men with huge sums amount of wealth, who dictate western finance, culture and foreign and internal policy’s.
      They are the sheep herders of western society.

    • Kipling says:

      06:44am | 19/10/11

      It seems to me that from the general tone of responses that no one disagrees that hate has become the new norm for debate. Most seem to be spending their time pointing the finger at those who oppose their ideological agenda as justification for their vitriol.
      How we express ourselves, either in print, verbally or by our actions are forms of behaviour. It seems the basic question is, what kinds of behaviour are acceptable and what kinds of behaviour are not? There is no room for justifying those occasions when an individual demonstrates a form of unaccpetable behaviour, however, this has become the norm, hence neither “side” is looking squeaky clean, yet both sides seem to be striving for the high moral ground. Since it is clearly demonstrable that BOTH sides (ideologically) are guilty, once could conclude that neither side is willing or capable of self reflection, taking personal responsibility, trustworthy (as a consequence of being irresponsible), or worthy of the blind faith, trust and respect afforded them by the rusted on die hards.
      If you feel the desire to point a shaky finger and go “but but they did it first” then you are firmly in the camp of the irresponsible, untrustworthy and lacking capacity or will to self reflect, by all means exercise your right to free speech but understand that it will be ignored and that utter contempt will underpin that non response.

    • Utopia Boy says:

      12:04am | 20/10/11

      Nicely put Kipling.
      Nailed it.

    • Kipling says:

      09:34am | 20/10/11

      Thanks grin

    • Steve says:

      08:20am | 19/10/11

      I think Ged’s point is made - when reading the comments I had to go back to the article several times. to make sure I was reading the correct comments - they were so off track with what the article was aboit.  From the start ‘Erick’ - you started attacking Ged based on a perceived view that the article attacked your political views.  I believe she was trying to say that we live in a culture of “hate Debate”.  Ged,  I for one agree with you – these posts prove it!!!!!!!

    • Brett says:

      11:29am | 19/10/11

      Agree…. the majority of these posts support the articles point of view while trying to critique/attack it! ha!

      Overall a good article (when not read along with one’s “related” assumptions) - positive constructive criticism is a productivity skill completely lost on most.

    • Utopia Boy says:

      09:09pm | 19/10/11

      There can be no “respect” when it isn’t reciprocated. Once upon a time I could say to a muslim, “I think islam is not the right path,” and they would reply “I think christianity is wrong.” Then we could have a discussion and explain our feelings and our reasoning, shake hands and say “Hi” when walking down the street. Now if I say anything negative about any religion I am infringing someone’s rights!

      The same goes for almost any “hot” topic today. Gay marriage, freedom of expression, climate change, even sport! It almost appears as if each side of an argument is trying to force the other into saying / doing something so outrageous that the public sympathy shifts. Or drastic action such as court proceedings, or even war, is the outcome. Of course, at the end of the process is a sizable amount of “compensation.”

      But, the worst aspect of the lack of respect argument is the way some things are enforced. Using law enforcement agencies to police ridiculous things like religion, sexuality and parenting sends the wrong message. It says “We are the government and we know best, so you had better follow this narrow, yet extremely complicated path with no diversions or flexibility allowed, or else!” The “or else” is often falling foul of the law, or being ostracised by the community.

      There are thousands of issues people don’t agree on. Millions probably. But if I try to exercise my rights as a HUMAN i.e. not necessarily something that is enshrined in the Australian Constitution, I would probably be figuratively hung, drawn and quartered by the local press and social networking sites.

 

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