Thank God census night has come and gone. Thank God literally. I’ve been bored witless by insecure atheists prattling on in the last few weeks and days about questions on religion.

For two things are sure. The census will show that a clear majority of Australians believe in a god. And religion is a clear force for good in our society.

“I wonder how many people still believe in God?” my 55 going on 15 year old DJ and artist brother in law Driller (that’s his real name) wrote on his Facebook page recently. “I certainly don’t. Do you?”

It was a free kick. I had to respond. (Driller and I bait each other constantly.) The 2006 census showed that 63.9 per cent of Australians were Christians. One point seven per cent were Muslims. Add in the Jewish population and it means two thirds of us subscribe to one of the world’s three great monotheistic religions.

And religion is great in every sense of the word.

Now, with a name like Christian you’re going to say I am biased. Truth be told, I have had no religion for most of my life and certainly the vast majority of my adult years.

I was taught by Jesuits in the tail end of the ‘70s and the start of the ‘80s when they were going through what the historian Paul Johnson has called their “Holy Nicaragua” years. and put a greater emphasis on liberation movements in the developing world than theology.

Whatever they gave me, an adult appreciation of God and religion was missing. I didn’t go church for more than 20 years.

But a long-dead Jesuit who wrote poetry half a century ahead of its time had got his claws into me. Gerald Manley Hopkins’ striking and startlingly beautiful 1877 work The Windhover is dedicated “to Christ our Lord”.

And glimpses of the startling beauty of nature – like the flash of scarlet and bright green on a passing parrot, like the kestrel that inspired Hopkins – provided a constant reminder of the greatness of God. Then in 1997 came the Nick Cave album The Boatman’s Call.

Like Cave in Into My Arms, I didn’t believe in an interventionist God – but the more I listened, the more, like Cave himself, I began to wonder if that was true.

And there was also the song Brompton Oratory. The thought of the man who once released Drunk on the Pope’s Blood fronting up to the same church as Cherie Blair and Jennifer Patterson of Two Fat Ladies amused and appealed simultaneously and niggled me for years.

If Nick Cave could do it, so could I.

Early one Saturday evening in February 2003 I found myself outside Holy Cross Church in Bondi Junction with an hour to kill. Bondi Junction is loathsome at the best of times and unbearable once the shops have closed. Mass was about to begin. I went in.

It was a stripped down service, no music, almost austere. The familiarity of the long unheard words of the liturgy flooded back to me. But three quarters of the way through came a line I had no recollection of: “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” And suddenly a great weight was lifted from me. I’ve been a churchgoer ever since, not every week, but regularly.

For religion offers comfort and succour. It offers values and a sense of purpose. Faith in God gives us faith in ourselves. And that makes us better people better able to make a contribution to our society.

While a clear majority of Australians do not go to church, somewhere deep down, they recognise this truth, if only in the simplest terms. They know it matters.

Forget the supernatural aspects of religion if you want to. Human beings have created religion because it meets clear human needs. And that is why despite the shrillness of the proselytising atheists, a clear majority of us will have told the census we believe in God.

Christian Kerr is a political reporter with The Australian

497 comments

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    • Brendo says:

      06:00am | 10/08/11

      So your argument is: God exists because most people think he does.

      Is there an emoticon for a slow golf clap while I roll my eyes?

    • acotrel says:

      06:45am | 10/08/11

      @Christian Kerr
      ‘Good God, you atheists are insecure’

      You guys seem to keep telling me I should be interested in religion.  Why should I be interested in something which is based on blind belief, and is not relevent to me?  I live my life ethically, caring for others and helping them, and serving society - isn’t that enough?

    • Dave says:

      07:16am | 10/08/11

      Hey alcotrel - if you think religion is based on ‘blind belief’, I’d like to see you holding a placard saying just that in front of the local mosque.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      07:34am | 10/08/11

      That is the odd part Acotrel, you can’t just be a good person to the religious you have to buy into their dogma as well.

      I particularly like Christian Kerr’s bald assertion that “religion is a clear force for good in our society.” In my experience religion, and its effect upon society, has more to do with the person practicing it than the stated beliefs of the religion in its own texts. Any belief can be used to harm or help people, it just depends upon the motives of the holder of the belief.

    • Chirs_D says:

      07:48am | 10/08/11

      @Brendo, and your counter argument is God doesn’t exist because no one can prove it to me?  Can I borrow your emoticon?

      I think the point is that if you choose to believe in God, for whatever reason, he is real to you, and that is all that really matters.

    • George says:

      07:57am | 10/08/11

      Good God , you atheist are sooo insecure!

    • Tubesteak says:

      08:52am | 10/08/11

      Brendo
      That was only half a thought. You need to complete it

      “God exists because most peole think he does because they are desperate to believe in something so that they can make sense of everything around them and find comfort from that and will choose to ignore evidence to the contrary because they don’t want to be confronted with the fact that they don’t know everything because it might mean they will be forced to admit that their lives are meaningless and that they are just an organism that evolved on a rock that has no purpose”

      God exists because we are social animals that are desperate to feel that we belong to something. God fills that void.

      I think I should put that on a t-shirt.

    • Brendo says:

      08:59am | 10/08/11

      @Chris_D I need to find the emoticon I crave, but your free to use it once its discovered. 

      As it happens I don’t believe in God, but that’s not quite my point. 

      The point is you can’t win an arguement on the basic premise “more people believe what I believe and therefore it must be true”. 

      In my view the arguement over the existance of God or not can never be finally settled.  However, those who wish to try need to make better arguments than Mr Kerr.

    • Joan says:

      09:32am | 10/08/11

      The commies tried to stomp out religion world over. Guess what religion survived and is blooming - open Christianity resurrected now that   the oppression of the likes of Stalin over. Stalin and similar with nothing but gulags and oppression to offer the people.- will never replace the Christians- even in their darkest hours in a gulag they can turn to God for comfort and hope. A belief in God power will outo anything an atheist has to offer.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      09:40am | 10/08/11

      Can I just say, to atheists and religious people alike:

      The more you argue your point and belittle the other side, the more concrete the other side’s belief.

      GL and HF.

    • Chris_D says:

      10:04am | 10/08/11

      @Brendo, “In my view the arguement over the existance of God or not can never be finally settled.”

      Not in this lifetime.  wink

    • Shifter says:

      10:12am | 10/08/11

      @Brendo - worth reading Small Gods by Terry Pratchett and American Gods by Neil Gaiman. Two novels based exactly on the premise that gods exist because people think they do.

    • Brendo says:

      10:55am | 10/08/11

      @Shifter

      If we could make gods just by believing in them, mine would be a lot hotter than the ones in the local Mosque, church or bowl of noodles. 

      Religous services would only be broadcast after 9.00pm and then only on SBS.

    • acotrel says:

      11:13am | 10/08/11

      @Chirs_D
      ‘I think the point is that if you choose to believe in God, for whatever reason, he is real to you, and that is all that really matters.’

      I believe the dead can see what we’re doing, and can put obstacles in our path to keep us on the straight and narrow, and that what goes around comes around!  Does that make those things real?  I’m also conscious about when I’m delusional, and do something about it.

    • acotrel says:

      11:16am | 10/08/11

      @Dave
      Why would I stand outside a mosque holding a controversial placard?  I’m not a christian fundamentalist looking for a fight!

    • acotrel says:

      11:25am | 10/08/11

      @Shifter
      With all the evidence available, we can argue about whether God does or doesn’t exist.  In the end it comes down to a choice, and consequences, and a decision to be made.  If you look at God’s existence in terms of likelihood, we might as well toss a coin. The trouble is that if we choose that God exists, we might not make the decision to attempt to control our own future.  This has implications for the way we manage risk, and the way we see our ‘Duty of Care’!

    • Rob says:

      11:25am | 10/08/11

      Insecure? Nope, I just don’t believe in an imaginary deity, invented by supernatural-fearing people from thousands of years ago. What an absurdity. Welcome to the 21st century, Christian.

    • acotrel says:

      11:32am | 10/08/11

      Did you know that St Christopher medals are not permitted in aircraft cockpits?  Perhaps the Australian Christian Lobby should act against the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, and implement this major safety improvement? Thousands of lives could be saved!

    • Chris L says:

      11:50am | 10/08/11

      @Joan - actually Stalin reinstituted the church in Russia during WWII. Turns out this terrible enemy was actually on your side… from time to time.

    • Shifter says:

      12:11pm | 10/08/11

      @acotrel - there’s a few quasi religious people going about who state if they believe in God and Heaven and they exist then all is good, and if they don’t then not much is lost. If they don’t believe and the existance is real they’ll burn for eternity (as the saying goes), so they figure they’ll just hedge their bets and believe.

      @Brendo - go read American Gods, it’s an absolute cracker. Some of the ‘Gods’ that exist will be right up your alley.

    • Paul says:

      12:42pm | 10/08/11

      @Tubesteak and if you are right why do you get pleasure from ripping into religion?
      I am guessing you have never had a brother die at 20, or other family members taken away from you at a young age.
      So what if religion gives people peace in death, and allows them to believe that they will see there family members once more.
      What a cruel view you take, and whats more you want to take this peace away from people, little kids, old people that have lost there children.
      Yhe mate go and make you shirt and you should feel really proud. If you don’t believe cool, but don’t attack people and infer they are stupid for holding spiritual beliefs

    • Joan says:

      12:52pm | 10/08/11

      Chris-L:  Stalin gave up his lost cause after killing thousands of priests and worshippers for their beliefs - the Orthodox Christians won in the end cos Stalin needed the Christian support more than Christians needed Stalin.

    • Tubesteak says:

      01:10pm | 10/08/11

      Paul

      So your argument is “it makes me feel warm and cosy so I’ll shut my eyes and put my fingers in my ears and sing la-la-la-la-la until those people go away”.

      Why not believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. It would make about as much sense.

      Bad things happen. People die. Get used to it.

      BTW my maternal grandmother died of cancer on my 14th birthday. I didn’t need to turn to supernatural myths to comfort me.

    • Paul says:

      01:34pm | 10/08/11

      @Tubesteak I was speaking on the hypothetical that you are right. Which you are not. My point still remains valid why would you enjoy ripping into religions when it gives people faith? Is that a crime because you think it is a fairy tale?
      Humans you included use 2% of there brain. You think using that tiny amount you can understand what is a fairytale and simply conclude death is death? Know there is a fairytale.
      That is horrible about your Grandmother, but being the big man you are why don’t you go see a kid who has just lost his brother and tell him its all a fairytale, and sorry your brothers gone. As that is what you are effectively doing.
      I feel truly sorry for your soul and where it is heading when you die.

    • Rocket Surgeon says:

      01:56pm | 10/08/11

      `I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’
      `But,’ says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.’
      `Oh dear,’ says God, `I hadn’t thought of that,’ and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
      `Oh, that was easy,’ says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

    • Budz says:

      02:46pm | 10/08/11

      @Paul - One thing I can think of is the discrimination that religion is allowed to encourage.
      Another would be the billions in dollars of tax breaks that religion get for just the sake of being a religion. I’d like that money to go to things like education and health. The sooner religion becomes a minority, the sooner religions can stop getting special treatment.

    • SydSteve says:

      02:56pm | 10/08/11

      @ Paul,

      If the religious just kept their religion to themselves there wouldn’t be an issue. Instead, they lobby to have their beliefs reflected in laws that effect everyone and have their beliefs taught to everyone in schools. Whats worse is that they have no justifications other then their religious texts to justify why it should be that way.

    • Chris L says:

      03:10pm | 10/08/11

      @Joan - It’s a pity he didn’t do that for the rest of his subjects.

    • Shane* says:

      03:16pm | 10/08/11

      @Budz,

      Shattering your argument about tax breaks is like shooting fish in a barrel. The Catholic Church is the largest health care provider/educator in the world.

    • Budz says:

      09:03pm | 10/08/11

      @Shane: What percentage are those things of their total revenue?

    • Servaas says:

      12:35am | 11/08/11

      No Brendo, not even. The argument states: there is no God, people created religion (not God) and therefore will state on the census form they believe in God. His view of God is full-on atheist: there is no god outside of oneself = he wosrhips himself but there is no ‘self-worship/I-am-god’ option to tick so he’ll settle for an alternative god box.

    • graham says:

      12:46am | 11/08/11

      I’m an atheist and I’m feeling insecure. Posted a few times today on various topics, but no publisho!  Am I ex-communicated? Cast out for not being a ‘believer’? Gnash, gnash! The end is nigh….Sob..
      Now I know what being de-pressed means.
      Don’t think you’ve won. I shall persevere, even though the task is almost impossible. But I have a weapon you religiosos cannot defeat. I’ve got the holey trinity—logic, reason, and the truth! I’ll be back…

    • Fiona says:

      06:10am | 11/08/11

      Rocket surgeon, yours is the best post here.
      Tubesteak, Paul is right. The majority of Christians et al won’t bother you, so why do their beliefs upset you so much?

    • RT says:

      09:56am | 16/08/11

      Brendo - best comment ever!

    • Andrew says:

      06:01am | 10/08/11

      People who were christened or baptised by their parents will say they are a particular religion even if they have never attended church and don’t believe in god. My brother and sister for example were christened and baptised Anglican and haven’t attended church since children but still call themselves Anglicans. And when pressed if they truly believe in God or the bible will tell you “not really”.

    • Markus says:

      09:04am | 10/08/11

      “And when pressed if they truly believe in God”
      And it is inevitably an atheist that feels the need to press. I have never had my belief system questioned by any Christian, Muslim or Jewish, only by smug atheists who think they know all since reading The God Delusion (or worse, since not actually reading it but just being told what it was about).

    • Andrew says:

      09:36am | 10/08/11

      Well your obviously a saint. And I have no idea what the God Delusion is. You sound angry and threatened.

    • Joan says:

      09:40am | 10/08/11

      Andrew - so you think the rest of the world reflects your family beliefs, that the rest of the world lives their life as your family does . Only a sixteen year old would believe that the rest of world is the same . Once 18 years of age most work out that the rest of world is not a clone of your family.

    • Andrew says:

      10:08am | 10/08/11

      Joan - you sound angry and threatend also. Your opinion of what I think is incorrect. Your post is over dramatic and quite nasty.

    • Joan says:

      10:28am | 10/08/11

      Grow up Andrew, get out in the world your brother and sister are not world religion barometer

    • acotrel says:

      11:57am | 10/08/11

      @Markus
      I’m probably an atheist, and my wife is religous.  I wonder why religion is never an issue between us?  I recognise the reality that I cannot sit in judgement on my wife’s choices, and I certainly wouldn’t attempt to offend her on such a minor matter. A person who is not interested in religion will react just as badly as a godbotherer if their position is attacked.  Why would anyone want to mess up a beautiful day with something like that?

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      06:02am | 10/08/11

      There is no such thing as sky fairies
      There is no such thing as sky fairies
      There is no such thing as sky fairies
      (chorus)
      There is no such thing as sky fairies

      There is no such thing as sky fairies
      There is no such thing as sky fairies
      There is no such thing as sky fairies
      (chorus)
      There is no such thing as sky fairies

      Just because you believe in something doesnt make it real and you can spin it anyway by saying that 2/3 of the population believe in one brand of mythological invisible friend, 100% of children believe in santa and the tooth fairy, until they grow up and realise it is just imaginary. If you ask 100 people if they are actually paracitising a form of religion or truly believe that there is an omni present dictator in the clouds about 5 out of 100 will say they believe.
      It is about time we all grew up and realised that there is no such thing as sky fairies and got on with our lives.

    • Ghost says:

      06:45am | 10/08/11

      Care to substantiate your figures ronald?

    • GC says:

      06:51am | 10/08/11

      Look I know religions have spent a lot of time trying to convert people, but now it seems atheists are doing the same. Every time Phillip Adams and Catherine Deveny (probably the biggest celebrity atheists in Oz) open their mouths, they’re trying to talk people out of religion. And now Ronald is doing the same. Just respect other people’s views and get on with your lives

    • Timmy says:

      07:10am | 10/08/11

      I don’t believe in sky fairies either (although I will if we find evidence of them).

      I do believe in God.

      The “sky fairies”, “flying spaghetti monsters” et al are strawmen. Pure and simple.

      And yes I do believe in strawmen, they hang around at the punch altogether too much.

    • Chris_D says:

      07:51am | 10/08/11

      @SRB, thanks for putting the exclamation point on the article.  You illustrate exactly what the author is saying beautifully.

    • JustmeinT says:

      08:03am | 10/08/11

      SKY FAIRIES are for children in their imagination…. GOD dwells in ones heart. I know therefore it is….. not I think therefore it is. There is a mega difference. Untill you make that journey you will not understand. I pray you are invited to take a step on that road yourself very soon.

      100% Christian and loving every micro second of it!

      However I truly hope people of all religious conviction - (see that is what it is a conviction) were open, honest and proud to state their conviction on the census form. God is Love and is truly GREAT! Amen

    • Timmy says:

      08:29am | 10/08/11

      The idea comparing the God of one of the big three monotheistic religions with “sky fairies” or “an omni present dictator in the clouds” is a strawman argument.

    • Ali K says:

      08:57am | 10/08/11

      Same could be said just because you dont believe in the something does mean it doesnt exist,.

      I generally ok with atheists but I wish they kept thier religion to themselves and stopped trying to assert thier faith in no God on everybody

    • Babe in the Woods says:

      09:07am | 10/08/11

      I don’t believe in Sky Fairies.  However, I have faith in God. I know that to me He is real.  I don’t believe in the church or many of it’s teachings.  So what?  I do believe in God and that is where I draw my strength.  Scoff all you like, to me He is real.  And Santa Claus is a really cool invention to make kids happy for a while.  There is a difference.

    • Joan says:

      09:46am | 10/08/11

      Babe in the woods: Yep- `God is real - cos I can feel him in my soul`  one of my favourite gospel songs,it gives me strength and peace of mind when needed.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      09:49am | 10/08/11

      Its actually the religious exponents that are the small minority of the population that are insecure. With my own beliefs I never go out and broadcast it I onlyver respond to ICB when I see another sky fairy believer knocking people who choose not to believe in there particular brand of supernatural worship, I dont care what you believe in truly I dont, it is your right to do so as long as it doesnt affect me, but when you come out critisizing me because I dont believe then yes, ICB in response.

    • mel says:

      09:53am | 10/08/11

      Timmy, JustmeinT, Babe In The Woods (and probably Ghost, GC, Ali K, Chris_D too), how do you know god isn’t a sky fairy? Care to substantiate that claim?

    • chris clowne says:

      10:12am | 10/08/11

      Sometimes I think it might be better to be like @JustmeinT who is “100% Christian and loving every micro second of it!”. The problem is, I just don’t think I can. It would involve me switching off a significant part of my brain… the part that I use everyday to look for facts to troubleshoot issues. I just couldn’t take myself seriously if I believed in something of such magnitude without any actual evidence other than ‘I KNOW in my heart’.

    • Babe in the Woods says:

      10:15am | 10/08/11

      @mel, you actually don’t understand at all.  Look, I am not knocking anyone, believe or not believe in what you want.  It makes no matter to me.  You ask me to substantiate - the thing is I have absolutely no desire or intention of doing so.  Faith is belief in the absence of proof.  You don’t get that, or you would not have asked.  That is fine, that is your right.  It is also my right to have faith.  I take my strength from my faith.  I can’t prove God to you or anyone else, as what I take as proof you would not.  Nobody sees the world the same way.  Obviously I see it different to you. Is that a problem?  I would hope not.

    • Ras Putin says:

      10:18am | 10/08/11

      Could you repeat that Sir Ronald ..Seriously i ask all the believers if they watched that excellent program “wonders of the universe” on A.B.C. tele.?  If they did ,can they truthfully say that they believe in a diety? If they still do,then they must be a little soft in the head!!

    • Ras Putin says:

      10:18am | 10/08/11

      Could you repeat that Sir Ronald ..Seriously i ask all the believers if they watched that excellent program “wonders of the universe” on A.B.C. tele.?  If they did ,can they truthfully say that they believe in a diety? If they still do,then they must be a little soft in the head!!

    • Timmy says:

      10:19am | 10/08/11

      Mel,

      I have faith in the evidence that God has revealed himself to us through many people over a very long period of time, the culmination of which is in the person of Jesus. You may not accept this evidence, but I do.

      This is very different to a mythical entity that atheists make up on the spot in an attempt to put down/rubbish belief in God.

      Even if my understanding of God is a human construct. It is a very complicated one, not one that was simply thought up on the spot. It has been developed, debated discussed over a very long period of time.

      A strawman argument is is a weak representation (or misrepresentation) of your opponents position that you create in order to knock down. “Sky fairies” are strawmen that atheists pull out because they get a laugh, and because gullible people think that they are a valid argument against theism.

    • 123 says:

      10:20am | 10/08/11

      sir ronald bradnam, you claim you are not insecure regarding your beliefs yet you begin your first post by childishly repeating the line ‘there is no such thing as sky fairies’ eight times. I thought atheists believed in evidence and logic.

    • Joan says:

      10:33am | 10/08/11

      Timmy:  `The “sky fairies”, “flying spaghetti monsters” et al are strawmen`——Nah they are just people with stunted religious developement and never grown beyond preschooler fairy story level.

    • Aussie Battler says:

      10:43am | 10/08/11

      GC says:06:51am | 10/08/11
      “Just respect other people’s views and get on with your lives “

      I think GC, that one sentence sums it up. 
      I personally do not follow any given religion, but do not care if others do.  It’s a personal choice.  I just don’t agree with ANY religion trying to force their beliefs onto anyone.

    • Phil says:

      10:59am | 10/08/11

      @sir ronald bradnam
      Just because you dont believe in something doesnt make it not real and you can spin it anyway by saying that 2/3 of the population dont believe in one brand of mythological invisible friend, 100% of children dont believe in santa and the tooth fairy, until they grow up and realise it is not just imaginary. If you ask 100 people if they are actually not practising a form of religion or dont truly believe that there is not an omni present dictator in the clouds about 5 out of 100 will say they dont believe.
      It is about time we all grew up and realised that people should be free to believe what they want to and just as you should have to put up with people shoving their beliefs down your throat those that do believe shouldnt have to put up with you shoving your disbelief down their throats.

      You aren’t any better than those who you oppose.

      *insert Philip J Fry squinting*
      See what I did there?

    • Ali K says:

      11:47am | 10/08/11

      @mel says

      How can you provre there isnt a God?

      I believe that there is a God by what we see in nature, by the Bible, by the change in a persons life. By yhe change in my life.

      But all these things probably wont satisfy you need for God’s existance.
      Fair enough.

      From my understanding neither of us can prove that there is or isnt a God to satisfy the others question.

      So why dont we call it even that there may or may not be a God.
      I happy for you to have your opinion that there is no God but when people speak ( not you) as atheist and try represent us all is when I get a little annoyed. I hope that you would allow me to believe in a God and that is a choice that I am free to make

    • mel says:

      12:16pm | 10/08/11

      Babe in the woods, you quite specifically said that you don’t believe in sky fairies, but you believe in god. I’m just asking what the difference is. Or how do you know they are not the same. I thought it was a simple question.

    • acotrel says:

      12:32pm | 10/08/11

      @Ali K
      I respect your reasons for believing in God.  However I hope you realise that there is another universe running parallel to your own.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      12:42pm | 10/08/11

      People can believe what ever they choose i dont care but I will respond with my own sane opinions when i see and hear religious nutters making statements about people who are more mentally developed and being condescending to their personal beliefs. If you want to worship an imaginary friend go right ahead but dont claim to me the existance of this mythological dictator when there isnt an ounce of evidence apart from a personal belief.

    • mel says:

      12:53pm | 10/08/11

      Ali K, I didn’t ask for proof of the existence of a god (although I do not believe there are any, if you are asking) I was asking how people know their god isn’t a sky fairy. It seems some people don’t like that image for their version of god (eg, Timmy, Babe In The Woods, Joan). It offends their view of what a god is to them. But really, how do you know what your god is and isn’t? It may be the best description of your god is a sky fairy.

    • Jim says:

      01:05pm | 10/08/11

      “People can believe what ever they choose i dont care” - but it seems you do care sir ronnie…you care a lot.

      Because everytime there is a religous thread in here you harp on about the whole sky fairy thing, over and over and over again.

      You have your beliefs, fine, how about you show some respect for other peoples beliefs? There’s no need for the piss taking there; there’s only one thing worse than religous nutters ramming their beliefs onto you, and that’s people who always think they are right about something and rudely criticize others who don’t take the same (childish) stance as you.

    • Scotty Campbell says:

      01:10pm | 10/08/11

      I once read an observation which I felt was apt for the “God is or God isn’t” arguement. Imagine trying to describe the taste of salt to someone who has never tasted it before…. how could you possibly, verbally construct the sensation of tasting salt to a degree that the listener could fully appreciate its flavour?? Spiritually I have tasted salt. The impact of my spiritual experience has had a enduring effect upon my life and those around me. I choose to call the author of that experience God and I know he is involved in my life. Only other people who have had such an experience could possibly understand or relate to my belief. To all others it is the “salt” senario they simple can not understand as they have no relevant reference point to start from.

    • Babe in the Woods says:

      01:31pm | 10/08/11

      @Scotty Campbell, what a fantastic post!!!  I have been trying to say exactly what you have said, I just didn’t know the words!  ***goes skipping happily through the woods to grandma’s house***

    • Babe in the Woods says:

      01:48pm | 10/08/11

      @mel, I just read your post.  Sorry if I didn’t answer your question to your satisfaction.  OK.  Here is the thing.  To me, a faerie (or fairy if you like) is a mythical being created by writers.  It has corporeal form and is observable by humans.  God is omniscient and therefore cannot be observed.  Also whilst humans have tried to picture god by their own terms, he cannot be defined.  To me also, god is not a fairy but a reality I have fatih exists (knowledge without proof) wheras a fairy is a thing created I have no belief in.  Also, god does not live in the sky but by definition is in everything.  OK, you may chose not to accept this, that is your call, but it is why I believe that god is real, and is not some other being.  And no, you do not offend me by your derogative terms (and I do believe you are intentionally trying to troll here).  I do not expect you to understand, and your belief or non-belief is your concern.  The reason I am writing is to answer your question.  If you wish to ask another question without sarcasm, veiled contempt etc then I am more than happy to answer.  Pick some wild flowers, it is a lovely day.  I am currently sitting on my patio reading Stephen King, glancing at this fascinating thread and thinking the world truly is a great place to be.

    • Timmy says:

      01:55pm | 10/08/11

      Mel,

      If you cannot understand the difference between an entity developed on the spot in order to deride/humiliate another position and an entity that has been understood throughout a significant period of history then I cannot help you.

      The God I believe in has been revealed through people, history, events and created order. The sky fairy that the atheist attempts to compare this belief with has been plucked out of thin air.

      It matters not if I am wrong or right about God. In order for someone to refute my beliefs, they can only do so by accurately representing them. Not by comparing them to something that misrepresents what I believe.

    • SydSteve says:

      03:08pm | 10/08/11

      “How can you provre there isnt a God?”
      We can’t because everytime one of your claims gets disproved you change the story.
      The age of the world?
      The fact that God isn’t just chilling in some clouds in the sky?
      Almost any fossil record?

      Everytime a claim that was made previously by the bible/church is proven wrong you just call it a metaphor and continue to believe in the other strange ideas that haven’t been disproven yet.

    • Dep says:

      03:10pm | 10/08/11

      Timmy,

      Some points to consider:
      1. Many religions existed before “your” God. How do you know yours was not thought of on the spot many years ago and carried on throughout history? 1000’s of years from now, will poeple call Santa God?

      2. Persisting in writing off sky fairies as strawmen arguments is quite a fine line given neither can be proven. I’d like to see you or anyone else contribute something other than blind faith to this argument. However, you won’t be able to, so you’ll call “strawman” and press that argument. Some people call this moving the goal posts.

      3. “The God I believe in has been revealed through people, history, events and created order. The sky fairy that the atheist attempts to compare this belief with has been plucked out of thin air.”

      Unfortunately, until proven otherwise, I would have thought no educated or logically minded person would agree with the first part of your statement here. I cannot see how God has been revealed with your given examples. In fact, London is a perfect example, if God is indeed in existance, of God causing chaos through people.

      As for the second part of your statement, it can be argued that God was “plucked out of thin air” as well. When God was “plucked” is irrelevant.

    • mel says:

      04:34pm | 10/08/11

      Babe In The Woods, not trolling but just asking questions in my vaguely Socratic way. I thnk you’ll find that SydSteve and Dep have understood the point of my questions, that is, how do you identify your god from all the other variants, and a more interesting question than that for me, how do you distinguish what you believe to be the actions of your god from sheer chance, coincidence and the usual workings of the universe. If god wasn’t there, how would the universe be any different?

    • Timmy says:

      04:54pm | 10/08/11

      @Dep

      “How do you know yours was not thought of on the spot many years ago and carried on throughout history?” - evidence! The Christian understanding of God has been revealed to us through the bible, culminating in the person of Jesus Christ, which was written over a long period of time. Many people quite rationally accept this evidence, other people rationally do not. I have faith in Jesus. This faith is based in evidence which you reject, but I do not. It is not plucked out of thin air.

      The Straw Man fallacy is committed when one person simply ignores another person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. Whether the two positions are provable or true are irrelevant. The fact remains that invoking “sky fairies” as an argument against theism is fallacious.

      A Christian doctrine is that people (including me) reject God. God’s reaction to this rejection is to allow us to do whatever we want and not intervene. The result is that people ultimately behave in selfish ways, which leads to all sorts nasty situations.

    • Ali K says:

      04:58pm | 10/08/11

      @ mel

      the Bible is a pretty good indicator to seperate the religions.

      as far as the sky fairy bit, sure its offensive. but its hardly the first time or the last that people to blame God or rubbish him. So i build a bridge.

      acotrel says:12:32pm | 10/08/11
      your comment

      ‘I respect your reasons for believing in God.  However I hope you realise that there is another universe running parallel to your own.(sic)’

      as long as you do as well then we are all good. smile

    • Dep says:

      05:26pm | 10/08/11

      @Timmy,

      There’s nothing rational in accepting the Bible as evidence. It has been shown many times that there are significant holes in the Bible. It has been tampered with many times over the years, resulting in a document that can hardly be used as evidence.

      If I had a time machine, went back to the bc’s and wrote a book, would you accept it as evidence of a deity?

    • Timmy says:

      06:11pm | 10/08/11

      Dep,

      “It has been shown many times that there are significant holes in the Bible.”

      I am not going to ask you to come up with any of these holes. The temptation for you to dump a bunch of quotes from some website boasting about all these “significant holes”. I ask you to be sceptical and avoid these type of sites because they really lack scholarship and generally seek out well research articles. I would use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inconsistencies as a starting place. While there are inconsistencies in detail, I do not see any inconsistency in the themes that Christians base their theology on.

      “It has been tampered with many times over the years, resulting in a document that can hardly be used as evidence.”

      This is not the case and becomes less so with some of the newer translations. This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kxeG3ivBLw shows a manuscript being read. The manuscript is dated at just after the crucifiction, and contains the same essential message about Jesus as contained in the bible on my iPhone. The New Testament is compiled from over 20,000 such ancient manuscripts.

      I do not have blind faith. My faith is guided by evidence.

    • acotrel says:

      10:03pm | 10/08/11

      @ Sir Donald
      So if 2/3rds of scientsts believe in climate change caused by carbon dioxide from human activity ? Does the word ‘consensus’ mean anything to you?
      !00% of clerics believe that God exists, isn’t that as good as a peer reviewed scientific paper which has been accepted by the establishment?

    • graham says:

      10:39pm | 10/08/11

      Care to substantiate your father, son, and holy ghost crap Ghost? Care to substantiate anything you use as a crutch because of your insecurity?
      My father never attended a church except for weddings or funerals. Nor did his father. Neither of their wives nor I and my wife. We were all baptised Anglican. It’s what was done. None of us were christian.
      I am an atheist. I’m not a communist nor am I a catholic. Both of these are “beliefs”. I don’t subscribe to any belief heaped on me by dictatorial regimes. I do however have my own understanding of what being decent means. I know what caring means and I know the value of compassion. I make heaps of mistakes because I am human, and I accept responsibility for those mistakes.
      I do not however blame some error made by an imaginary incestuous family in some imaginary garden somewhere for those errors, and I don’t think that some jewish character in some fictional propaganda sheet had one bit to do with me regretting, and being remorseful about those mistakes. That is my doing.
      I have not read the koran nor the bible, (any of the hundred-odd versions), but then again I didn’t read Gulliver’s Travels or lots of other tales of superstitious nonsense.
      In closing, I just can’t bring myself to fall down and beg for a cleaned conscience from a statue, a depiction of a woman, (and a “virgin” at that)nursing a stone baby. or some twisted perverter of truth wearing a dress who works for some Company, (a non-taxpaying Company) with its head office in Rome. My conscience is my conscience.

    • atthepub says:

      06:15am | 10/08/11

      Some guy went to the judge complaining that there was no day set aside for atheists. He said, there’s Christmas for the Christians, Ramadan for the Muslims, Passover for the Jews, but nothing absolutely nothing for the atheists.

      The judge said, i have to respectfully disagree sir. You know that it is written that the fool says in his heart that there is no God.

      April Fools Day was set aside for you lot.

    • Johnny atheos says:

      09:51am | 10/08/11

      Euripides (480–406 BCE) said “Doth some one say that there be gods above? There are not; no, there are not. Let no fool, Led by the old false fable, thus deceive you.”

    • mel says:

      09:56am | 10/08/11

      Atthepub thinks he’s a wit. He’s only half right. (Boom, tish! Thank you ladies and gentlemen, an oldie but a goodie!)

    • atthepub says:

      10:31am | 10/08/11

      Psalms 14:1, (1040–970 BC) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

      Euripides came a few centuries too late and by opening his mouth proved King David right, as quoted in Psalms 14 and 53.

    • Anne71 says:

      12:56pm | 10/08/11

      atthepub - as far as I’m concerned, “No Religion” does not necessarily mean the same thing as “Atheist”.  It just means that you don’t follow any particular religion, Christian or non-Christian.
      I was baptised a Catholic but since I no longer practice Catholicism, it didn’t seem accurate to tick that box.  If anything,  I am more Buddhist in my philosophy these days, but again, it didn’t seem accurate to tick that, since I’m not a practicising Buddhist, either. So what was I supposed to do? Lie, and tick a box claiming to be something I’m not? Or just be honest and say that I don’t follow any particualr religion at the moment?
      As I often say, I believe in God - I just don’t believe in religion.

    • atthepub says:

      01:20pm | 10/08/11

      Same Anne, I didn’t tick any box either. Just wrote religion: God. There was provision for that on the census form.

    • Michael says:

      02:43pm | 10/08/11

      That is so funny and original, oh wait no it’s not. But I guess that’s the kind you shallow minded thinking you would expect.

    • Mayday says:

      04:32pm | 10/08/11

      In 1686, John Aubrey referred to the holiday as “Fooles holy day”.

      Note the word HOLY!!

    • atthepub says:

      05:31pm | 10/08/11

      The word holidays is derived from the Old English word h?ligdæg. The word originally referred only to special religious days; holy days. Go figure.

    • Mayday says:

      06:13pm | 10/08/11

      Athepub. - April Fools Day was set aside for you lot.

      So really the 1st of April was a religiously based holiday for the Fools of the flock!

    • Gomez12 says:

      01:07pm | 11/08/11

      I always liked Epicurus - 33 A.D.

      “Is God willing to prevent Evil, but not able?
      Then he is not omnipotent.

      Is He able, but not willing?
      Then He is malevolent.

      Is He both able and willing?
      Then whence come Evil?

      Is He neither able nor willing?
      Then why call him God?”

      I’m struggling to comprehend how the authors contention that God must exist because mass made him feel good works? Does that mean Cocaine is a holy thing because it makes people feel good too?

    • Richard says:

      12:56pm | 12/08/11

      Gomez,

      This is a favourite of mine as well.  It is amazing that no matter how often one sees this quote or provides it oneself, the religious never ever ever respond to it.  Suspect because it makes them awfully uncomfortable and they can’t work out how to bring in the whole freedom of choice line to refute it so pretend no one has said it.

      Cheers

    • Ghost says:

      06:28am | 10/08/11

      What’s funny is they bring their insecurities here…as the day unfolding will clearly demonstrate.

    • Chris L says:

      12:41pm | 10/08/11

      What’s even more funny is the very next comment sets him straight on how to be a real Christian. Which group do you say is insecure?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:37am | 10/08/11

      Dear Christian Kerr I appreciate your stand for what you believe about the real God but not Heathen, Pagan or wordly gods but if you forget the supernatural aspects of the God of Christianity and believe it was only human beings who have created this because it meets clear human needs then you are not worshiping the one True God as revelled in the Scriptures but I do feel you are searching and you need to continue with all your heart and soul so you can find Him.

      Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

      I will keep you in prayer - Christian Love Anne.

    • gobsmack says:

      08:16am | 10/08/11

      Lol, do I detect a schism.

    • graham says:

      01:17pm | 11/08/11

      With all your heart, soul, and Anne, your money. Ah, there’s the rub!

    • acotrel says:

      06:37am | 10/08/11

      I generally have no interest in religion.  The only time I tend to notice it, is when the christians begin their politicking based on their dogma.  However I’d say one thing - when my father was dying of a smoking related illness he said to me ’ I’ve found religion- but you don’t have to worry about that !’  I believe it actually helped him to face his death, which was certain and coming inexorably towards him.  So perhaps religion is not all bad ?

    • Chris_D says:

      08:05am | 10/08/11

      @acorel, I think this is right, that religion helps people find a number of things, especially in times of need.  Sometimes it is the inner resolve to get through a crisis, sometimes it’s a moral compass, maybe just something that supports them when they feel alone.

      As long as it is used as a positive life pointer, and allows the believer to accept others and their beliefs I really have no problem with any religion or believing in any God or other divine spirit, or for that matter, those who have none.  It is when we choose to berate and belittle others for their beliefs that the whole argument turns sour.

    • Bilby says:

      09:39am | 10/08/11

      My mum was envious of the way her best mate, due to her religious beliefs, took the death of her husband , as compared to the way mum struggled. I think the secular world sort of ignores that side of life whereas religious folk are much better prepared. As you say, not all bad.

    • Peter#1 says:

      06:38am | 10/08/11

      In recent times it has become abundantly clear that humans have become so egotistical, that most think that humans are the supreme species in the universe.
      This egotism has led many to believe that humans can control Nature and the planet’s Climate.
      Compared to the vastness and the grandeur of the universe, humans are but an insignificant speck of dust with the collective intelligence of that speck.
      One only has to gaze into space on a clear, starry night to realise the insignificance of humans.

    • acotrel says:

      07:02am | 10/08/11

      @Peter#1
      Are you qualified to preach?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:45am | 10/08/11

      Yes there is some Truth in what you have shared but how wonderful Peter#1 as Christians God calls us His chosen Children and that He Loves us greatly but He also Loves every human being in this world whether they believe in Him or not ...and He considered us all even though we are made from dust worthy enough to Sacrificially give the greatest Gift mankind could ever receive… His Son Jesus Christ who also Loved us and made it possible for all those who believe in Him to live Eternally in Paradise where there will be no suffering only Eternal Love and Joy.

      As a Christian I take pride in being Called by that name because to many it means Christ in us and because of this it also means we are ....

      .... a Chosen generation, a Royal Priesthood, an Holy Nation, a Peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous Light; 1 Peter 2:9-10

      In Greek the word peculiar means purchased, possession etc…In the modern WordWeb it means…. Beyond or deviating from the usual or expected or….Unique or specific to a person or thing or category or Markedly different from the usual and Characteristic of one only and distinctive or special.

      Wow no wonder God considers us People of great worth in His eyes… He made us that way in His Son.

      Christian Love Anne.

    • Tina says:

      07:48am | 10/08/11

      So you are saying because we might (unproven) be nothing in relation to the universe we should be more humbled and dont behave like we matter. But if we dont matter at all then it should make a difference how loud we scream around and misbehave?

    • Gusss says:

      08:06am | 10/08/11

      All animals, plants, etc on planet earth affect the environment they live in.

      I would say that it is egotistical to think that humans are disconnected from their environment.

      We can control nature in the short run to some extent and we can certainly choose to modify our behavior if it is destructive.

    • marley says:

      08:15am | 10/08/11

      What you say is true - but it is not an argument for the existence of god.

    • Sceptic says:

      08:28am | 10/08/11

      @acotrel

      You preach your rubbish world view of politics on us all the time - are you qualified to preach?

    • SimpleSimon says:

      09:15am | 10/08/11

      @Peter#1 - I’m sorry, but what’s your point? Because we don’t know what else is out there we should stop trying to discover the secrets of the universe? That we should stop trying to improve our world and build on our collective knowledge? Bollocks. It’s true, in the grand scheme of things Earth is a tiny planet in a small solar system in one of billions of galaxies. But why should that mean we shouldn’t try and grow?

    • undertow says:

      09:26am | 10/08/11

      I think you are right about humans Peter#1

      “no wonder God considers us People of great worth in His eyes… He made us that way in His Son.”

      This statement clearly implies that humans are the supreme species in the universe, as we are supposedly made in the image of his son (ergo, him). Since you couldn’t really consider “God” a species, that puts us at the top of the pecking order.

      Outright egotism and a good measure of arrogance.

    • Joan says:

      09:52am | 10/08/11

      Marley: God exists cos I believe. Everyday in everyway the power God is there.  `Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall open , ask and it shall be given`.

    • Peter#1 says:

      10:10am | 10/08/11

      I am not advocating the pursuance of any religion.
      Religion, as the author has stated and as I stated a couple of weeks ago, is the creation of humans.
      Faith in the existence of a superior force or being is altogether a different matter.
      For lack of a better word, that supreme force has been labelled God, Allah, Yaweh etc.
      It could just as easily have been labelled Hydrogen, as I believe the theory is that the universe began with a single atom of Hydrogen. I am no scientist and it has been a long time since I was at school, so please correct me if I’m wrong.
      For the rest, the Bible stories and the different religions that sprang from these are the creation of humans in order to control other humans.
      To not believe in the existence of a superior force, or being, is the epitome of egotism and arrogance.
      @ acotrel,
      I am not qualified to preach and am not doing so, merely stating a conclusion I have reached over many years of observation and thought.

    • mel says:

      01:10pm | 10/08/11

      Joan says: “God exists cos I believe. ” If things existed because we believe them, the world indeed is a magical place! Unfortunately, things don’t work that way. No matter how much I believe I’m married to Winona Ryder and live in a big house under the sea, it doesn’t make it true.

      A question Joan: referring to your comment below on Dogbolter’s view of god, is your statement an advanced view of god or at a pre-primary school level?

    • zoroastrian says:

      06:47am | 10/08/11

      Christian your argument seems to be that because people tick a box that asks if they consider themselves a member of a religion that they actually practise that religion or believe in a supernatural being. Not necessarily true. In my experience there are many people who call themselves christian who have no idea of what that means, have little understanding of what the bible says and a childish concept of what God is in a christian sense. God is definately not a white anglo man with long white hair and beard as depicted in many images, passing judgement from on high. To have a headline claiming that atheists are insecure is a bit rich when in our society it is the christians who are frequently loudly proclaiming that it is their values and beliefs that are being undermined.

    • Chris_D says:

      08:08am | 10/08/11

      @zoroastrian, apart from the fact you appear to miss the whole point of the article,  I especially like the way you know “definately” what God isn’t.  Care to inform us more of what you “know”?  Maybe “definately” what God is?

    • mel says:

      10:05am | 10/08/11

      Chris_D, I doubt very much if you could tell us definitely what your god is, either. I’m sure you could make up all sorts of fancy descriptions, but it would just be a string of words without real meaning in terms of a deity. And it’s very bad form to point out someone’s spellling mistake; people might think you were a nasty, arrogant pedant.

      Zoroastrian, are you actually a zoroastrian? If I was religious, that’s the one I’d like to be!

    • Nafe says:

      10:20am | 10/08/11

      Jesus was Jewish, But does it really matter what colour his skin was or how he cut his hair? Soes a persons appearance matter that much to you? Do you think a short haired black man can not be the Son of God or Masiah?

      It doesn;t matter if Jesus was a black, white or yellow Jew, all that matters is that he is the Son of God who died for my and your sins who currently sits at the right hand of the Father, and one day, I hope to join them in Eternal Life.

    • Chris_D says:

      01:06pm | 10/08/11

      @Mel, firstly, I didn’t point out anyone’s spelling mistake, I merely used a fangled new thing called copy/paste and quoted it.  Sorry it upsets you so much.
      You are correct that I could not tell you what anyone’s God is, and I wouldn’t assume to, but you missed the point that no person can ever tell us what God isn’t either.

    • David Stasey says:

      01:29pm | 10/08/11

      @Chris_D
      You never had any credibility.
      Now everyone can also see that you are an out and out liar.
      No-one believes that you cut and pasted. And even if you did single out that one word for cutting and pasting, it was for no other reason than to highlight the error as charged.

    • mel says:

      02:37pm | 10/08/11

      Yes Chris_D, if you were cutting and pasting, why the inverted commas which weren’t in the original post. I do believe you have just shown yourself to be an nasty arrogant pedant, and a snivelling coward to boot, lacking the courage to own up to your real intentions.

      Nice atheist types: 1; snivelling god-botherers; 0.

    • Chris_D says:

      06:54pm | 10/08/11

      @David Stasey , I really don’t know what your problem is, but it is your problem, not mine,  Deal with it yourself.

      @mel, it is generally accepted that when you quote someone or something you put it in inverted commas. I can honestly say I never thought about it. I would have normally just used my fingers in the air to signal it, but then people would have insisted I never did it, because they don’t have any proof.

      Again, if you and David find this so infuriating, I can understand why you both get so worked up when it comes to trying to debate something that goes beyond your limited ability to get past the grammar.

      if you both still have issues with it, take it up with your parents or your teachers, because they are the ones who have failed you.

    • mel says:

      08:07am | 11/08/11

      Chris_D, the argument that David and I have with you is not about spelling (nor is it about grammar, as you wrote) but the intention behind your pointed quotes. As I said before, all this just shows that you haven’t got the ticker to stand up for your own work.

      And why is it that snivelling christian cowards like yourself are so bad at reading comprehension?

    • NigelC says:

      06:48am | 10/08/11

      How will the census show that; ‘And religion is a clear force for good in our society.’?

      Must have been a different form than the one pig-ignorant atheists like myself filled out.

    • thatmosis says:

      07:09am | 10/08/11

      Unfortunately the “religion” that you believe in is based on a book of fables written in the centuries after the supposed life of the saviour and open to criticism because it was written by people who had a vested interest in controlling the masses and still do. I dont care one way or the other if people believe or not but keep it too yourselves and stop trying to push it onto others as the truth. To each his own.

    • Timmy says:

      08:35am | 10/08/11

      The vast majority of that book was written in the millennia BEFORE the life of the saviour.

      The rest was written well inside 100 years after his death and resurrection.

    • Aaron says:

      09:25am | 10/08/11

      This is actually inaccurate. In terms of the old testiment, the lastest book in our bible (Malachi) was written approximately 400 years before the events of the gospels. Now, The New Testiment is composed of the 4 gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) which were written by people who were actually travelling with Jesus, or were close to the events that happened. These people were actually there when this stuff happened. Most of the remainder is composed of letters, most of which were written by Paul, who was also present at the time of Jesus (although didn’t directly interact), and was directly involved in the aftermath of jesus departure.

      I believe what you’re referring to is the council of church leaders in around 300AD, where the church leaders of the time got together and decided what was going to go into the book which is now the bible.

    • Dogbolter says:

      07:15am | 10/08/11

      Unlike other religious people, I don’t wander around trying to shove my “non-religion” down other people’s throats. Aetheists don’t start wars in the name of some invisible friend who tells them to kill people and never shows up to congratulate them on a job well done. I don’t tell women what to do with their bodies, with the clump of cells that may turn into a child. I don’t strap up children or myself with weapons of destruction to kill other innocents in the name of my invisible friend.

      It’s so ironic in that when a child interacts with an invisible friend we tell them to grow up and stop being stupid and it doesn’t exist, but call it God, and all of a sudden you can do anything you like and get away with it. Let’s face it, I am an aetheist because your God is a lousy person. He/she/it tells you to love others, yet lets those in Africa starve to death. Tells you not to kill clumps of cells in a woman’s body, but bombing clinics that help women get an abortion is fine. I will never understand why your God lets people die in horrific ways, but people accept it. It’s fine for a child to be raped, tortured and murdered because now they are “with God”. When people die in tsunamis, car crashes, natural disasters, they are “with angels now”. Well, I want my person here with me, not playing a bloody harp on a cloud. If your God is fine with this, I don’t want any part of your religion. it shows your God to be cruel, unjust and wicked. Ironic, isn’t it?

    • Aaron says:

      09:33am | 10/08/11

      Not really that Ironic when a lot of what you said is found essentially on rumor. I think you’ll find that people will go to war no matter what. God is just a convenient guy to blame (Now, I’m not saying that religion isn’t the cause of some wars, it is, but most are just using “God” as an excuse). Nowhere in the bible does it tell us about contraception, nowhere does it say that we should be ok with disasters that happen. To put it frankly S**t happens, and what the bible does say is put your own needs aside and go and help those who are in need. I’ll be the first to say that christians tend to screw this part up, but I don’t see how spreading words like yours, which aren’t particularly true, help anyone.

    • Anubis says:

      09:46am | 10/08/11

      @ Dogbolter - +1 on that,

    • Chris_D says:

      09:48am | 10/08/11

      @Dogbolter, you are currently in line to win the “biggest waste of bandwidth” award, but the day is young.

    • Joan says:

      10:02am | 10/08/11

      Dogbolter: Judging from this comment and others on Punch site you have a lot anger, confusion within you and it would seem your explanation and view of God here is still at pre-primary school level.

    • mel says:

      10:25am | 10/08/11

      Oh Chris_D, there’s this thing called psychological projection. I think you might be a sufferer.

    • Dogbolter says:

      12:14pm | 10/08/11

      Joan: Judging from this comment and others on Punch it would seem that you are one of those miserable, bleeding heart liberals who cry when they see anything except kittens and flowers on tv. You still live in the world of ‘Happy Days’ and ‘Leave it to Beaver’. Nothing of which I wrote above is not true. 99% of all world wars are fought in the name of religion. This God that Christians say they believe in says “suffer not the children”, yet turns a blind eye to paedophile priests. And if they say they are judged before God, why does this God allow children to suffer sexual abuse, rape, sodomy and the accompanying guilt, mental torture and self-abuse before the priest dies and is then judged? This God of yours is a terrible tradesman, for if he created man, he put too many faults in him. In all of our civilized lives, there has never been any irrefutable proof of any sign of a God existing - and before you say it, why does this God that exists for some and not others never appear before those who do not believe? What better way to get more believers than to prove he does exist?

      It will never happen. There is too much evil in this world for a God to exist. This is not for us to find our “spiritual” way. Religion was originally a way to keep people in line, and it still is. It’s sexist, with Islam seeing women as walking breeders, and Christianity not much better. They all see females as breeders and lesser beings with less rights than men and as possessions of men. The Christian church is full of the biggest hypocrites of all, telling others to give them money wile the Vatican sits on a fortune that could solve so much world hunger and poverty, yet they refuse to do so, even going so far as to contribute to the problem by telling people they will go to hell for using birth control.

      I’m with John Lennon. “Imagine all the people… living for today”. Unfortunately, that’s all it is. A pipe dream, but I still imagine.

    • mel says:

      01:02pm | 10/08/11

      Joan, what is your advanced view of god then, how does it differ from Dogbolter’s vision, and what proof do you have that your version is correct? One can use all sorts of high-falutin’ words and all manner of scholastic hair splitting to understand what god might be, but it often seems to be a flapping of gums with no substance to back it up.

    • Chris_D says:

      01:09pm | 10/08/11

      @mel, lol, you are half right.

    • Joan says:

      01:29pm | 10/08/11

      Poor mel like most spiritually bereft wandering in the wilderness , their spirituallity not developed beyond playschool . Punch blog site is not the place for spiritual learning in the same way you don’t learn about algebra , physics, computer programing here. mel- you can find your own way to God if you want - there are a million and one ways described - just read more spiritually aware material than some Dogbolter diatribe- you may find spiritual enlightment.  As for gums- if you should seek help from your dentist.

    • Joan says:

      01:41pm | 10/08/11

      Dogbolter - gee God topic has you frothing at the mouth , and set forth an outpouring of rabbid comments from you. . Step out of your playschool world view of God and you might see the world, religion differently.  There is no such thing as perfection- we can only strive.

    • David Stasey says:

      02:32pm | 10/08/11

      @Chris_D is handing out stupidity prizes!?! Dunning-Kruger, your Nobel cheque is in the mail. (Hey Chris, don’t be too quick on the trigger. AdamC hasn’t turned up yet.)

    • mel says:

      03:00pm | 10/08/11

      Joan, didn’t you say in an earlier post that “God exists cos I believe” or is that a different Joan? I was just wondering if you believe that it is an advanced level view of god or a pre-primary school version. Whichever one it is, it sure doesn’t make any sense.

      How does one identify these more “advanced” views on god, and distinguish them from the pre-primary school versions, when everything I seem to read from god-botherers seems to lack real substance. As a guide, whose advanced views did you take on?

      Can I just say, however, that if you, Chris_D and atthepub are the type of people I would be hanging about with if I found a god to believe in, I’m quite joyous at being poor and spiritually bereft!

    • David Stasey says:

      03:08pm | 10/08/11

      Oops, my mistake. AdamC has made a half hearted attempt further down. Why does she keep pretending to be an atheist?

    • Dave-o says:

      07:21am | 10/08/11

      Atheists insecure, gee I wonder if that has anything to do with “Christians” back-dooring parliament to put preachers in schools. Or oppressing marriage rights because Leviticus thought they should be burned at the stake along with everyone who cut their hair. Or the multi billion dollar tax free ride church’s receive each year so they can teach AIDS infected populations in Africa the evils of condoms.

      Even if you believe God created the Earth men built the Church. The census is one of the few means in which non-religious “subjects” can express their desire for separation of church and state. Next time they should remove the question all together.

    • Aaron says:

      09:37am | 10/08/11

      Oh, excellent, let’s oppress christians just the way gay’s, women, blacks and so on have been for many years. This is a statistic analysis of our country, a country in which a significant enough number of people still believe in religion. I’d see no reason to remove such a question from the census unless time after time it showed a 100% “no religion” result

    • Chris L says:

      10:06am | 10/08/11

      Um… Aaron… in what way is Dave-o suggesting the oppression of religion?

      You guys are so sensitive!

    • Aaron says:

      11:19am | 10/08/11

      Haha, Chris, I’m actually not too sensitive at all. I’m saying that it’s this kind of attitude that leads to oppression. I’m all for removing religion from politics. I find that when religious leaders get to a position of power, they tend to abuse their power, and bit by bit they represent their own fundamentals, rather than that which is seen in the bible.

      But to just say next time “Well, let’s remove this option” in the same paragraph as “Separate the church from the state…” That concerns me.

    • Chris L says:

      03:49pm | 10/08/11

      OK, I see how you came to that conclusion.

      I agree that we should be ever watchful over those in charge. I do like the idea of being truly secular and I think this would be as much a protection for the religious to practise their faith as it would be for the non-believers to avoid religious interference in their lives. To me it sounds like a win-win situation, but a lot of people think that secular means “ban religion”, which I would never agree with.

    • Dave-o says:

      03:52pm | 10/08/11

      Since when does removing the question from the Census make it opression?

    • Scarlett Street Rocker says:

      07:25am | 10/08/11

      “God spelt backward is doG.

      This is religion”

      John Lydon

    • Christian Kerr says:

      08:42am | 10/08/11

      Proof, I’d say, that PiL were really always a singles band. I’ve admired Lydon’s work - and the good common sense he displays most of the time - for more than 30 years. Tracks like Public Image and Flowers of Romance remain astoundingly good and even later stuff like Disappointed hasn’t aged that badly, but jeez the albums are stuffed with filler.

      “We only wanted to be loooooooved…”

    • Mark G says:

      08:56am | 10/08/11

      Dog spelt backwards is God. Oh hail our Canine creators.

    • Babe in the Woods says:

      09:15am | 10/08/11

      N@Scarlett, and God in Russian is Bog, but I don’t think that means he hangs around in the water.  But as John himself said:  “I could be wrong, I could be right!”

    • Chris L says:

      09:53am | 10/08/11

      While she lived my dog was a more noble creature than the god described in the bible (yes, I’ve read it).

    • Joan says:

      10:48am | 10/08/11

      When you don’t have a rational agrument , find another idiot and play the fool idiot card spell the word backward and think you have argument. Yet another showing how primary school standard argument. .

    • remlap says:

      11:40am | 10/08/11

      Joan. It’s ironic that your application of grammar is of such a low standard. The way you carry on about primary school arguments is a little bit like “I know you are; you said you are. But what am I?”. If you truly believe, turn the other cheek rather than trying to extract an eye for an eye.

    • Joan says:

      01:06pm | 10/08/11

      remlap: here we go again the guy straight out of play school thinks that all religious practice equates to his/her limited knowledge. Your eye for eye comment says it all- go expand your limited religious knowledge it won’t hurt in fact it may enlighten you. As for grammar, yours doesn’t read so perfect. and who cares here?

    • remlap says:

      02:01pm | 10/08/11

      Joan, you carry on about primary school, pre-school and play school and use it as some juvenile attempt at a derogatory insult that only serves to highlight your ignorance and your true values, albeit lacking in any Christian virtue. In attempting to demean someone by pointing out some perceived lack of education or intellectual capacity, you have only highlighted your own shortcomings. Your ability to assume is second to none. Fortunately, you are an exception to the rule, since you have only succeeded in making an ass out of you and entirely left me out of the picture.

      Thanks for the offer to expand my religious knowledge, although I already have done some extensive work in that area and probably far more broadly than you would dare to endeavour. It certainly was enlightening to venture outside of the bible and served to strengthen what I was already thinking as I left behind a childhood of religious education and entered adulthood.

    • Elphaba says:

      07:27am | 10/08/11

      Insecure Christians have prattled on for centuries.

      Suck.  It.  Up.  Jeez, the ability for atheists to make some noise is such a bitch, huh?  Get a grip.

    • stephen says:

      07:46am | 10/08/11

      You don’t have to be an Atheist to be greedy, selfish, ignorant, fearful, and foolish you know.

      (Just join the Liberal Party ; they’re key indicators.)

    • ibast says:

      08:28am | 10/08/11

      The flip-side is “Go to church every Sunday doesn’t make you a Christian”.

      John Howard and Tony Abbott are proof of that.

    • L. says:

      07:59am | 10/08/11

      So atheists are insecure in the authors eyes… But if that’s the case, why the big christian whinge over ethics classes..??
      Seems to me that the religious types are insecure about losing their school monopoly access to the nation’s kids.

      Pot / kettle.

    • Look! No hands! says:

      08:03am | 10/08/11

      Wait wait wait wait wait wait… Everything about religion is good? Wonderful. Well tell that to alter boys that have the finger of God inserted into them by a priest…

      The finger of god compels you to not sin and believe HE cares.

      What utter rubbish. Stop forcing your beliefs on others until they’re proven…

    • Chris_D says:

      08:11am | 10/08/11

      For me it is simply a case of people believing what they choose to believe.  No one requires “proof” to believe in anything.  God or no God?  Who knows.  No one does.  That is why religion is based on faith. 

      IMO, and I think much like the author, I believe the people atheists are most trying to convince is themselves.  Otherwise, why bother arguing to prove something doesn’t exist, if that’s what you honestly believe?

    • Craig says:

      09:29am | 10/08/11

      Many people require proof to believe in something. To do otherwise would be pretty careless. Atheists argue because they see the harm religion causes. What do you think started this whole census issue? Christians spreading hate.

    • Barry says:

      09:50am | 10/08/11

      @Craig
      Oh yes, all hail the transparency of the Atheist Foundation.  It’s all about fighting hate!  The whole census issue was not started by Christians spreading hate it appears.  From what I can see, the Atheist Foundation actually started “their largest and most important campaign” asking people to mark No Religion in January.  The facebook message seems to have only popped up in recent months.  Regardless, spreading hate isn’t accurate.  Spreading misinformation is more reasonable.

    • Chris_D says:

      09:59am | 10/08/11

      @Craig, actually, nobody requires proof to believe in something, you require proof to know something as a fact and for that fact to be indisputable.  Once something is proven, then to not believe it is foolish.

      To choose to believe in something without proof is to have hope and faith.

    • Disraeli says:

      08:18am | 10/08/11

      Well, that weighs up Kerr nicely as a journalist.

      Start with a sweeping, loaded generalisation. Move quickly on to fill in with puffery.

      What I saw on The Punch was both sides expressing individual views, with varying degrees of calm, fact, silliness and outright mischief.  All missed by Kerr, seemingly.

      Still, it’s useful to know what to expect from another journo from The Australian stable.  The usual tricks.

      Ho hum.

    • Aaron says:

      09:44am | 10/08/11

      Are you and I reading the same “Punch?” I saw a pretty one sided (and rather) annoying view. I couldn’t care less what people tick on the census because it’s their personal view. What I do care about was the rather annoying campaign (by both atheists and christians) to get people to “tick their box.” This is a census, not an election

    • Disraeli says:

      10:42am | 10/08/11

      Sigh. So, perhaps not *quite* as well put as it might have been.

      “What I saw on The Punch was *all* sides expressing views, with varying degrees of calm, fact, silliness and outright mischief”.

      There.

      For Pete’s sake. One loose choice of word, while the main thrust stands clearly.

      The whole thing’s been done over and over. Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, Christians, and others: a right mix of genuine vs zealot vs troll on all sides. Plus a handful of reasonable posters on the actual value of the Census.

      All I did, among the flak, was to find and summarise some checkable stuff on the Census as such.

      For Pete’s sake.

    • Aaron says:

      11:21am | 10/08/11

      Ah, my mistake. Sorry ‘bout my rant, then

    • Disraeli says:

      01:55pm | 10/08/11

      Well, thanks, Aaron.  Such simple courtesies are rather rare on The Punch.

      Kerr’s sweeping loaded statement was worth having a crack at - *whichever*  label he took aim “aim” at.

    • Bob says:

      08:21am | 10/08/11

      You’re all insecure, it’s a part of being human.

      We all know fear, doubt and pain throughout life, we can’t judge others for coming up with different solutions to the same problems.

    • Joan Bennett says:

      08:22am | 10/08/11

      To be a christian, you have to believe that Christ was the son of God and rose from the dead after they killed him.  That’s the miracle upon which the christian religion was born.  So, are you saying that you think 63.9% actually believe you can come back from the dead?

    • atthepub says:

      09:06am | 10/08/11

      No Joan 85% of Christians believe that.
      According to the Nielsen Poll on Faith in Australia taken at the end of 2009 the vast majority of Christians in Australia believe that Jesus was the Son of God, a real person who lived 2000 years ago. The majority believe that he rose from the dead and his mother was a virgin. (91, 94, 85 and 72%.) 
      More than a third of all Australians believe that the bible is the Word of God and a quarter of all believers and over one third of all nonbelievers in Australia believe that God’s Word is to be taken literally, word for word.

      Don’t’ take my word for it is from the 2009 Nielsen Poll of Faith in Australia.

    • SimpleSimon says:

      09:39am | 10/08/11

      @atthepub - I’m a bit confused by those figures. Are they the percentage of people who call themselves Christians AND believe in the things quoted? If so, it would appear there are a lot of “Christians” out there who are Christian in name only, because they don’t believe in the ideas that are the cornerstone of their religion.

      PS, wish I was at the pub…

    • atthepub says:

      10:03am | 10/08/11

      Too true Simon.

      Even more intriguing is that there are more nonbelievers than believers that believe that the word of God is to be taken literally. Not sure how that works ..

      Welcome to join me any time.

    • iansand says:

      10:31am | 10/08/11

      Or that the Archbishop of Canterbury was surveyed.

    • iansand says:

      08:25am | 10/08/11

      No insecurity, unless asking people to give a considered and accurate answer to a census question is insecurity.  One might even think that fear of what such an answer may reveal shows a deep seated insecurity on the god botherer side.

    • Rose says:

      11:14am | 10/08/11

      Yes, but is it only considered and accurate if it supports what the Atheists want. I am not a practicing Catholic but was raised by Catholic parents, was a regular chuchgoer until my late teens/early twenties and attended only Catholic schools. While I no longer ‘practice’ my religion I recognize that my Catholic upbringing is still the basis for my value system and I still identify as Catholic. I know plenty of people who basically have that stance, that while they no longer participate in the weekly services still consider themselves Catholic.
      Here’s an idea though, why doesn’t everyone just shut up and let people fill out their own census forms they way they see fit!!

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      08:26am | 10/08/11

      I don’t really care for religion, or football or anchovies for that matter, but if that’s your thing that’s fine - go for it, don’t expect an argument from me about it.

    • marley says:

      09:19am | 10/08/11

      What have you got against anchovies?  I suspect you’re just piscatorially insecure.

    • Mayday says:

      08:28am | 10/08/11

      Insecure yes that you people will not give it a rest!!

      The term “God botherer” is there for a reason…...LEAVE US ATHEIST ALONE AND STOP PUSHING THIS DOWN OUR NECKS.

    • ibast says:

      08:31am | 10/08/11

      “I’ve been bored witless by insecure atheists prattling on in the last few weeks and days about questions on religion.”

      Really?  It seemed to me the prattling was being done by the sub-set of Racist Christian being paranoid about other religions infiltrating on their turf.

    • Chris_D says:

      10:14am | 10/08/11

      @ibast, I think you’ll find “racist loonies” is the preferred term on The Punch.  wink

    • moldor says:

      08:32am | 10/08/11

      Air exists, I can feel it and “measure” it.  Prove, scientifically, that God, ANY God, exists and I’ll believe in it.

      We accept blind faith far too easily. If I told you that stepping off the arch of the Harbour bridge you wouldn’t hit the ground or water, with no proof - no scientifically verifiable evidence of any kind - would you believe me ?

      Nor should you, unless I can prove my claims and guarantee your safety.

      I wasn’t brought up a Christian, I became one by choice - it seemed better than what else was around, and it was a great way to pick up chicks (yes, I was that shallow). But I have come to realise that the bible is so full of contradictions and anachronisims that not only isn’t it relevant to us today, it can’t be proven to be true.

      And it is self-contradicting !!  Look at Matthew 7-9 - http://bible.cc/matthew/7-9.htm - and we are supposedf to believe that some God, some “father”, allows all the pain and suffering in the world ?

      Nope… Although my girls go to a “church school”, it’s for the educational opportunities and not something that can’t be proven.

      Hey, if some God taps me on the shoulder one day, before or after I’m dead, and says “Guess what, I exist”, and proves it, I’ll be the first one to put his hand u-p to being wrong. In the meantime, live and let live.

    • Timmy says:

      09:51am | 10/08/11

      You are applying a principle that for something to be true, it must be provable.

      Can you prove the above principle???

    • chris clowne says:

      10:21am | 10/08/11

      Couldn’t agree more Moldor.

      Your last paragraph is spot on.. and is in my opinion, the difference between an atheist (militant or otherwise) and a religious fundamentalist i.e. All an atheist needs in order to believe is proof. Simple really…. Try disproving something that doesn’t exist smile.

      Queue the: ‘but that’s why you need faith’. And you won’t get any disagreement from me. Faith is 100% essential in believing something for which there is no evidence. That’s not a virtue, it’s just fact.

    • Chris_D says:

      10:21am | 10/08/11

      @moldor; a close 2nd to Dogbolter.

      So, according to you, we shouldn’t believe in anything without 100% proof?  Nothing exists unless it is proven to you?

    • chris clowne says:

      12:56pm | 10/08/11

      @Chris_D: That’s an easy one.. for the vast majority of life’s questions, 100% proof isn’t required. It would be handy, but hey, life’s short, and it really doesn’t matter most of the time.
      HOWEVER… when it comes to something as MASSIVE as an omnipotent being watching over you, telling you what to eat/drink/pray/do… and where you end up after death, I’d say the level of evidence required should be a lot higher than other comparatively insignificant questions.

      Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence… not zero evidence.

    • Chris_D says:

      01:20pm | 10/08/11

      @chris clowne, apart from the fact i don’t subscribe to your theory that an “omnipotent being watching over you, telling you what to eat/drink/pray/do… and where you end up after death” , I also think you miss the point that people choose to believe in a God because they want to, among other reasons.  They don’t need proof.

      I believe the Sun will rise tomorrow.  Do you?  If it didn’t we are all fucked!  But I don’t have any proof it will, do you?

    • Budz says:

      02:37pm | 10/08/11

      @Chris_D: Of course I have proof that the sun will rise tomorrow. It has risen every other day for as long as man has been able to record it. And I also know that Scientists all over the world would be able to alert the population if something major happened that lead to the sun not rising. And please don’t talk about ‘absolute truths’, because I don’t believe in them. For example there is no way you or anyone else could categorically prove that we are all not part of the Matrix.

      Now your turn for some evidence on god. And not only a god, but your specific god in your specific religion and denomination. The floor is yours…..........

    • Chris_D says:

      07:06pm | 10/08/11

      @Budz, exactly, you have proof it has risen, but have no proof the Sun will come up tomorrow, until it actually does.  We assume it will, science and the law of averages tells us that, but we have no proof.  My point is simply that there are some things we “know” even though we have no proof.  I’m just illustrating a point, not trying to prove God. 

      But thanks for the vote of confidence that I might have unlocked the secret to the Universe and all within it.  And for the record, I am not Keanua Reeves.

    • Gomez12 says:

      04:08pm | 11/08/11

      @Chris_D

      The Sun will “rise” tomorrow, I guarantee it. I have no Faith that it will happen, I KNOW it will.

      Very simply because the Earth rotates around the Sun (Not the other way around as your church decreed for hundreds of years) and without the sun the Earth would freeze almost instantly and spin off into space - Personally I think I’d notice something like that. In case you don’t, post your number and I’ll give you a call on the day and let you know.

    • chris clowne says:

      12:28pm | 12/08/11

      @Chris_D: Fair call on the sun thing. Never really thought about it. So, now, when someone asks me if the sun will rise tomorrow I will say ‘I sure hope so.. i usually see the sun, but i have proof’.

      I assume you’ll say the same about god? smile

    • Mike says:

      08:35am | 10/08/11

      About the most insecure person around at the moment is Fred Nile. Otherwise he wouldn’t be constantly bleating about ethics classes “competing” with his precious religion’s attempt to convert children. 

      Me thinks Christian protests too much…

    • Seanr says:

      08:39am | 10/08/11

      I’m in a quandary about whether to really participate in this discussion as I think it will quickly degenerate into ‘you can’t prove your sky fairy exists’ and ‘you’re going to burn in hell’...instead I think I’ll agree that “Into My Arms” is a beautiful song..no matter what you’re belief system

    • Seanr says:

      08:56am | 10/08/11

      dammit that should be ‘your’ not ‘you’re’

    • Horse says:

      08:46am | 10/08/11

      “Warren Jeffs, 55, the church leader .. given the maximum sentence for taking girls as young as 12 to be his brides ...

      ‘.... claimed that his prosecution was a violation of his religious rights and warned it would lead to “sickness and death” being brought on the locality.”

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/09/warren-jeffs-jailed-life-sentence

      Yet, “religion is great in every sense of the word”??

    • Aaron says:

      09:58am | 10/08/11

      I believe there was also a gunman in Norway who killed a whole lot of teenagers. All this proves is that people are whacked. The religion card is an easy card to play. Could, if people like you are to be believed, get you out of a jail sentence and into a luny bin till you’re cured.

    • Potato says:

      08:49am | 10/08/11

      “... religion is great in every sense of the word.”

      WHAT

      THE

      HELL

      ???

      Really? You REALLY believe this??

    • Joan says:

      09:21am | 10/08/11

      Being a Potato explains it all - a potato by name a potato by nature.  No I don’t expect a potato to grasp the concept of religion - religion expressed in all its diverse ways. - too much for potato head or atheist to grasp.

    • Chris L says:

      10:21am | 10/08/11

      Yeah Potato, that’s why islamic terrorist cry out “God is great” before detonating, ‘cause religion is great in every sense of the word.

    • Chris says:

      03:07am | 12/08/11

      I want to thank Christian Kerr for having the courage to say that “religion is great in every sense of the word”. 

      That is really refreshing!  I too think religion is great, indeed one of the greatest things. For me, religion is the bread of life.  Stay true to your heart, and stay true to the many deeply good people in our churches (and of all faiths).

    • persephone says:

      08:55am | 10/08/11

      Ticking the ‘Church of England’ (or whatever) box on the census form does not constitute either having a religion or a belief in God.

      Only someone who felt a bit insecure about their religion would suggest that.

      On the flip side, it shouldn’t matter to Christians how many people tick what box.

      Belief is a personal thing - and if you believe, it should be irrelevant to you whether others do. let alone whether yours is a majority position.

    • Michael says:

      10:58am | 10/08/11

      Heya perse, nice to see you smile well said.

    • marley says:

      08:48am | 12/08/11

      Okay, I give up.  How can you tick “Church of England” with a straight face if you don’t believe in religion or god?  To be part of the C of E, prima facie, you believe in “god the father, maker of heaven and earth.”

    • AdamC says:

      09:01am | 10/08/11

      Wonderful article, so many icky comments. Congratulations to some of my fellow non-religious Punchers for demonsrating so aptly the author’s point.

      I don’t agree, as some argue, that Atheism (in the sense that some of the stupefyingly narrow-minded commenters above clearly practise it) is a religion. It doesn’t have any of the good bits. Having said that, it does make the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church look inclusive and forward-thinking by comparison.

    • Chris L says:

      04:19pm | 10/08/11

      So, in comparison to the “icky” atheist comments how do you expect your own comment to rate? Or is it OK for religious people to denegrate outsiders since it’s been going on for so long you hardly even notice you’re doing it?

    • Craig says:

      09:03am | 10/08/11

      The only reason this became an issue in this census is because some Christians started some hate and fear scaremongering around it. In retaliation that Atheists decided they would make the point that while many people may be christened into a religion they are not practising or interested and so shouldn’t identify themselves as such and support the hate coming out of these Christian groups.

    • Anna C says:

      09:06am | 10/08/11

      Thank God the Census is over.

    • monkeytypist says:

      09:14am | 10/08/11

      You and your brother argue on facebook? Really? Cool story bro.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      09:48am | 10/08/11

      If it is Driller Jet Armstrong, get him on here - I’d be interested in an article written by him. I probably wouldn’t agree with it, but you could be fairly certain it would be entertaining.

    • Mark says:

      09:18am | 10/08/11

      ” And religion is a clear force for good in our society.”

      Really? I work hard, pay my taxes, provide for my wife and 2 children. I don’t steal, kill or cheat on my wife. I teach my children right from wrong, teach them to respect others and to always try their hardest.

      I have friends who are of a wide variety of religions including Christian and Muslim, and have friends who are gay…and I’m an atheist.

      By all those indicators I would say that I am a pretty upstanding member of the community, yet here you are insinuating that none of this applies unless you support a religion.

      If religion is a clear force of good in our society, then why is there significant child abuse by church ministers? Why are suicide bombers so caught up in their religion they are willing to kill themselves and dozens of innocent people for their god?

      Religion has been the excuse for countless acts of viciousness, yet here you are proclaiming that all that is good in society is due to religion.

      There is plenty of good in this world which has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

      Go to Hell.

    • the apologist says:

      01:49pm | 10/08/11

      The problem with that position Mark is that you’re not living truly to the implications of your atheism. If matter is all there is, then good and bad are just ridiulous concepts. Good actions, bad actions, it’s all just matter in motion. You’re citing all these terrible things, but you’ve got no grounds on which to realistically claim that they’re terrible. Terrible doesn’t exist - nor does good - just a chemical reaction in your brain and someone else’s that is different.

    • Gomez12 says:

      03:46pm | 11/08/11

      @the apologist,

      Your assertion is incorrect as Morality and Ethics pre-date all current religions. Theists simply like to claim them as their own and deride athiests for not having any - It’s a complete fabrication of course, unsubstantiated by any sort of evidence, but the religious amongst us like that sort of stuff.

    • chris says:

      03:19am | 12/08/11

      @ the apologist, I fear your philosophical arguments for theism will go over the heads of 99.9% people here.

      @Mark, the author says that religion is a clear force for good in the world, and I agree with him.  He does not suggest that religious people are the only good people around.  Your whole post is full of logical errors.

    • Grant says:

      09:18am | 10/08/11

      @ Mr Kerr

      When purely assessing the symptoms of ‘religious belief’; technically it is a psychiatric disorder.

      Religiously influenced beliefs demonstrate a multitude of symptoms that are identical to some psychiatric disorders:
      1.  May believe, see or hear things that don’t exist
      2.  Feel like they’re being constantly watched or judged by being/s
      3.  May feel as though they can communicate with being/s that don’t exist
      4.  Can feel that invisible being/s are directly or indirectly influencing their lives

      Extreme cases can include:

      1.  Talking in tongues

      This is a common symptom of Schizophrenia.  But is also common amongst the attendees of the evangelical (Hillsong). 

      Apparently they think that the “Holy Spirit is manifested by Speaking in Tongues”. 

      I find the whole thing quite disturbing that adults do these things in this day and age.

      Mental Health, Religion & Culture Published By: Routledge
      http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/carfax/13674676.html

    • MarkS says:

      09:19am | 10/08/11

      Random Chance, you Christians are insecure. Go peddle your rancid little fantasies elsewhere, not interested.

    • Mahhrat says:

      09:19am | 10/08/11

      Your God allows SIDS to occur.

      You tell us that you support and believe in an omniscient, omnipresent and beneficial deity.  That same deity allows SIDS to occur. 

      You cannot justify that according to YOUR OWN definition of your God.

      Believe me when I tell you that my “faith” is very secure, thank you.  If you continue to believe in your God despite his action/inaction around SIDS, then I suggest, Christian, that you are a selfish and risk-avoidant clown of a human being who needs to take a serious look at the entity he’s backing.

    • Michael says:

      11:02am | 10/08/11

      Not only allows but created SIDS, and AIDS, good and evil all the stuff you love and hate it’s all God’s work.

      Intolerance exists because God created it.

    • Budz says:

      09:30am | 10/08/11

      “Forget the supernatural aspects of religion if you want to. Human beings have created religion because it meets clear human needs.”

      Aren’t you saying here that you know religion and god is man made but it is created for people that need to feel loved by a ‘greater being or force’?
      And isn’t that exactly the same reason that Santa was made? So adults can control kids through the reward/punishment for being good/bad?

    • SimpleSimon says:

      09:44am | 10/08/11

      Dammit, you beat me to making this point grin

    • the apologist says:

      09:32am | 10/08/11

      It’s a shame when people claiming to defend the faith resort to fluff instead of giving reasons for the faith. This article resorts to appealing to beauty and emotionalism as an argument before doing a backflip and pulling the rug out from under itself.
      In saying: ‘Human beings have created religion because it meets clear human needs.’ Christian has effectively admitted to the claim of atheists that it’s a falsehood that we fool ourselves with to deal with life.
      Christianity is about truth. Anything less than claiming that the Creator God is real and has revealed Himself to mankind through the person of His Son, Jesus Christ, is no Christianity at all.

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:50pm | 10/08/11

      “Anything less than claiming that the Creator God is real and has revealed Himself to mankind through the person of His Son, Jesus Christ, is no Christianity at all.”

      Says who?  Who are you to judge what is christian and what isn’t?  You have no authority to determine what is christian and what isn’t so butt out and let people decide for themselves.

      You’re just a man, and you, like all humans are wrong.

    • the apologist says:

      03:20pm | 10/08/11

      Says the Bible, which Christianity holds as the revelation of God. Take the Bible away, and you haven’t got Christianity. Jesus was pretty clear when He said ‘no one comes to the Father but by me’. Try also Hebrews 1, and John 1. I’m not proclaiming on my authority, as you say, it’s not my place. I’m just proclaiming what the Bible says.

    • Sarah says:

      09:33am | 10/08/11

      Most people just tick the box on the census that correlates to what they were born into. They’ll tick catholic if that’s what their parents are, even if they have never gone to church and are ambivilent about the whole thing. In other words, no they are not catholics, they’re just related to people who are/were.

      And Catholic clergy will use this to “prove” that they have loads of followers and lobby the government to do stupid things like replace school counsellors with chaplains, and maintain church tax breaks.

      Anyway - “faith is believing in something that you know isn’t true.”

    • Aaron says:

      10:02am | 10/08/11

      My sister was on the verge of suicide, when a school chaplain befriended her and helped her when nobody else would. She didn’t come forward to our parents, or anyone except the chaplain, who was the only person she could approach. I think chaplains are worth keeping, thank you very much.

    • biscuit says:

      10:48am | 10/08/11

      That’s right, which is why it annoys me when people talk about athiests having faith. Athieism, by its definition, is an absence of faith. How can athiests be insecure about not believing in something that has no proof? If I told you I have an invisible unicorn in my backyard that grants wishes, and you say you don’t believe it, do you suddenly have religious “faith” in this non-belief, and become insecure when I try to tell you it is real?
      Athieism is not a religion.  it is simply a word used to describe someone who does not believe in god/invisible unicorns

    • God is Gay says:

      11:01am | 10/08/11

      My brother committed suicide after going to see a school chaplain.

      He was struggling with his sexuality.

      The chaplain (as nice as he was) had no training in counselling or psychiatry, had never been in a relationship (catholic), had never had kids of his own, he had no experience in dealing with relationship issues and could not relate.

      He fell back to what his religion taught him - that homosexuality is wrong.

      In the end the bigoted, one-sided, backwards view of religious zealots that THEIR way and THEIR belief is the only way resulted in the loss of my beloved brother.

      Religion - the cause of more suffering than anything on earth

      remove chaplains from schools, religion is a blight on this great nation and this earth

    • Aaron says:

      11:29am | 10/08/11

      I am sorry about your brother. That is a really sad story, and I will concede that many chaplains do not have the kind of training necessary to be Counselors. That said, those that do have proper training shouldn’t be banned from working at schools.

    • God is a big fat poof says:

      12:02pm | 10/08/11

      Aaron, 


      ‘those that do have proper training shouldn’t be banned from working at schools.’

      This is not the view of the Christian lobby though is it??

      The Christian lobby think THEY know what’s best.  They don’t care whether the pastor/priest/minister is qualified – All they care about is getting their own message across! They have no interest in children, only their OWN selfish, bigoted views.

      When I see a Christian stand up and say they only want to see qualified people in schools, then I’ll believe it.  Until then, they are promoting the inclusion of people in our schools who they KNOW are NOT qualified to deal with any of the issues thrown at them (broken homes, sexuality, ethics classes, other religious groups, single parents, adopted kids with various life experiences, violence etc…). even Pell said a few months ago that the science of climate change is wrong – despite arguments about science, who the hell is GEORGE PELL to be talking about climate science – it’s as stupid as the Pope advising NASA on jet propulsion (although I suspect he’d have a go if God gave hime the word)

      Fact is, Christians promoting chaplains in schools are NOT doing so because they care about the kids! 

      If they were doing what is best for the kids they would be promoting appropriately qualified and experienced PEOPLE (not chaplains).

      If you have any argument with that then I suggest you visit my parents on the anniversary of my brothers suicide and explain to them why the Christian lobby, full well knowing that chaplains are not qualified to deal with these issues, consider them such an important part of the school system.

      And before you say I don’t know what I’m talking about consider that my wife is a primary schools teacher, with an honours degree in sociology, is a trained counsellor and she also happens to hold a Masters in Theology.  She doesn’t consider herself experienced enough to deal with some of the issues in her (pretty well run) school – how the hell could your minister do it relying on nothing but a book written by goat herders 1500 years ago and the advice of an idiot in a white hat that lives in a palace in Vatican City??

    • God is a bigot says:

      12:06pm | 10/08/11

      I’ve just made a terrible mistake using that name to submit a post ‘god is a big fat poof’ and I must apologise to any gay person who was offended.

      God would be a damn site better a person if he WAS gay – as I find many of my gay friends to be the most accepting and loving people. 

      Apologies – I hope no one was offended.

      How could I ever have made the mistake of comparing a hateful, vengeful, disgusting creature like God to the so many caring loving peaceful gay people of the world.

      I think my new sign on name is more appropriate as it reflects what I was trying to say

      What an idiot I am!

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:32pm | 10/08/11

      What ‘training’ is that Aaron? A degree in Child Psycology that includes major studies in sexual abuse, mental abuse, drug abuse, mental illnesses etc from an actual modern University or reading the Bible, that I beleive hasn’t had any changes for the odd coupla centuries or nine…  ??

      School Chaplains have NO place in a modern PUBLIC school. We have teachers and trained guidance counsellers for that. We do have a system for children to get guidance and councelling in a faith based atmosphere - its called a Catholic/*insert religious faith* school. And if parents choose not to avail themselves of that system then they can drag the kids along to church/temple/mosque at the appointed traditional times and have a chat with the trained religious scholars there. Take your pick. The School Chaplaincy program is nothing more than ‘Grooming’...or ‘Indoctrination’ if you will.

    • graham says:

      01:32pm | 11/08/11

      @ god is a big fat poof. This is a terrible thing to say. Have you no respect for the truth? Have you no respect for the written word that binds all christians together? Shame on you. God is not perceived by the “great” christian scholars to be gay. How could he be gay and still be the father of Mary’s baby? You know, Mary, the wife of poor cuckolded Joseph. You need to lift your game, ‘god is a big fat poof’!

    • Anubis says:

      09:37am | 10/08/11

      The author says “Human beings have created religion because it meets clear human needs”. Yeah, right. The need that is being met by organised religion is the base need to control and dominate the masses. Religion in this modern era is an anachronism and a speed bump to the real growth of human endeavour.

    • P. Darvio says:

      09:40am | 10/08/11

      I have no doubt this Census will show another drop in the number who claim to be Christian and a rise in the number of Atheists.

      This is only good for Australia and Australian Society. Let’s hope this trend continues and on the 200th Census anniversary all religion is a very very small minority in Australia, and across the World, and no longer has any political power.

    • biscuit says:

      10:54am | 10/08/11

      the census form says “No religion”. Not athiest. Just because you do not subscribe to a particular religion does not mean you are devoid of faith.

    • P. Darvio says:

      11:22am | 10/08/11

      Quote “the census form says “No religion”. Not athiest (sic). Just because you do not subscribe to a particular religion does not mean you are devoid of faith. “

      What nonsense is this? “No religion” means No Faith NO GOD No belief in a supernatural being - take your argument up with the Census people. “No Religion” means you are an Atheist.

      http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/1266.0main+features102011

      ‘No religion’ broad group

      ”The classification also includes a ‘No Religion’ broad group which could be considered to be inconsistent with the basis of the classification as described above and outside the scope of the religion topic”


      I can only assume and wonder what you marked/indicated in “Other” on this particular question? – maybe you can let us all know?.......

    • Timmy says:

      05:25pm | 10/08/11

      I had a Christian friend who would have answered “no religion” because he was hung up on semantics. He definitely believed in God, but to him Christianity was not a religion, but a relationship. He definitely would have marked “no religion” then and probably did last night.

    • Bec says:

      09:40am | 10/08/11

      I really wish we could all just get along…. you’re more than welcome to believe in God(s) and I’m quite happy to not believe.

      So much talking down to and snobbery, weren’t you told to respect your fellow man? Treat others as you would like to be treated? ...I think I heard that somewhere.

    • Aaron says:

      10:04am | 10/08/11

      I’ve decided I like your thinking smile This is the big problem. Both christians AND atheists (at least the ones on the Punch) need to learn to sit down and drink beer and eat skittles. I like skittles, they’re tasty smile

    • Godfrey Zohn says:

      11:21am | 10/08/11

      Great comment Bec.  All please take note.  +1 interwebs

    • michael j says:

      01:45pm | 10/08/11

      @Aaron- sounds really good ,almost like heaven,, but are their truly people who can afford such thing’s these days,,

    • ibast says:

      09:42am | 10/08/11

      Christianity:

      “The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever. if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul, that is present in humanity because a rib-women was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree”

    • Jade says:

      03:41pm | 10/08/11

      Sounds like someone was on acid….

    • ibast says:

      04:04pm | 10/08/11

      Actually Jade, you’re not far from the mark.  Early Christian ceremonies often involved stimulants such as certain types of bark and mushrooms.  Those that find this preposterous should consider that wine still forms part of Roman Catholic ceremony and until very recently was consumed in much more than the token amount it is today.

      Certainly explains a lot of stuff “witnessed”.

    • mel says:

      08:34am | 11/08/11

      And ibast, if you are Catholic and still believe in transubstantiation, there’s nothing symbolic about the eating of flesh at all. During the mass, the communion wafer turns into the real body of christ!

    • Supergirl says:

      03:15pm | 12/08/11

      Gold. That is pretty much how I view these things. If you think about ‘accepted religions’ in an anthropological sense/outsider view, christianity etc is no different from what ‘civilised’ people call voodoo, tribal customs or even scientology.

    • Shane* says:

      09:42am | 10/08/11

      I’m not a fan of slamming my face into brick walls, so I’m going to pass over the atheists v believers debate.

      I will say this:

      Nick Cave is an absolute genius.

    • Shane* says:

      10:06am | 10/08/11

      In fact, I would say Nick Cave’s music is an argurment for the existence of God!

    • Chris L says:

      11:45am | 10/08/11

      I can counter that argument by mentioning Justin Beiber…. unless he counts as an argument for the devil.

    • Dan says:

      09:44am | 10/08/11

      Whoa, nice to see a pro-Religious piece on ThePunch, well done to ThePunch for adding some balance (which was missing).

      I send my Christian love to all of the Atheists. Even the ones who like talking about sky fairies and teapots and blame God for what man has done.

      Big Hugs all around.

    • the apologist says:

      10:24am | 10/08/11

      This piece did true religion no favours.

    • neil says:

      11:03am | 10/08/11

      Atheist don’t blame god for what man has done, there is no god to blame. We are on our own and everything that befalls us is our own responsibility.

      Those who believe an imaginary being is looking after them are simply too inscure to take responsibility for their own lives.

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:20pm | 10/08/11

      Did you miss the other eleventy six pro-religious pieces from a plethora of religious zealots over the past few years??

      I’m willing to admit there have in all likelihood been a few more pro-thinking for yourself articles on the Punch, but not by a wide margin. People form the ACL and other Pro-Christian, Pro-Islam, Pro-Judaism commentators have had many articles published on the Punch.

    • Budz says:

      01:49pm | 10/08/11

      Dan, I present to you, Epicurus. A wise man well before Jesus.

      Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

    • Jade says:

      09:48am | 10/08/11

      Welll, I would hate to break it to you, but there really is no god.  True story…  I seen a funny group on facebook the other day… Getting kicked out of the Library for putting the bible in the fiction section. Made me laugh out loud, because that’s really where is should be… 

      Also, in case you didn’t already know, Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny are not real.

      Have a nice day.

    • Aaron says:

      10:26am | 10/08/11

      WHAT!!!! The easter bunny???? how DARE you ruin my innocence like that!!! raspberry

      With those argument techniques I could also say Jedi’s are real! There’s a facebook group about it! I think they’re real.

      Actually, the bible should be in the reference section,

    • Jade says:

      10:42am | 10/08/11

      Sorry Aaron! Didn’t mean to burst your bubble… you can always pretend that he is and still get your easter eggs smile

      And, I wasn’t saying that just because facebook says its, must mean its real/true! I just found that particular group amusing cause I think its right! smile

    • Aaron says:

      11:35am | 10/08/11

      Wait, sometimes things on facebook AREN’T REAL!!!???? Today is not the day for my bubbles :( raspberry

      Oh…. Well I sure feel sheepish (is the absence of a sheep emoticon, I shall direct you to this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3SZ6k9RoR0 )

    • Jade says:

      02:15pm | 10/08/11

      Hahaha :D

    • Rossco says:

      10:00am | 10/08/11

      “For religion offers comfort and succour. It offers values and a sense of purpose. Faith in God gives us faith in ourselves. And that makes us better people better able to make a contribution to our society.”

      Your paragraph is dripping in ignorant nonsense. I doubt you have you ever talked to an atheist or non believer about what they believe in and how they lead their lives.

    • Brendan says:

      10:29am | 10/08/11

      It seems to me that a lot of the people saying that I am a christian but I dont believe in the interventionist god, are probably more closely aligned to a deist belief than a christian one.

    • Natasha says:

      10:31am | 10/08/11

      What happened to ‘judge not, lest ye be judged’?

      For those who believe in god, why do you believe in god?

      For those who don’t believe in god, why don’t you believe in god?

      Personally, I don’t believe in god, because religion has historically been used as a way for a select few to profit from the masses (tithe, donations, offerings).  The people who were spreading the belief are the people who were benefitting from people believing.

      Would you believe in something that a person with a vested interest was telling you?  I don’t, because doubt is cast over a person’s motive and integrity, it makes it hard for you to trust any of the other things they are trying to tell you.  I am a sceptic. 

      Others do believe in god, and this is right for them for the reasons they have.  These people are just as entitled to their beliefs as I am to mine.

    • Babe in the Woods says:

      11:25am | 10/08/11

      Hi Natasha.  I notice on here and other places that a lot of people claim not to believe in God because of what religion has done.  No argument there, religion has a lot to answer for.  Believe in what you like, or not, but I just think it is a shame that religion has turned so many people away from at least being prepared to at least contemplate the reality or otherwise of god.  Personally, I have a belief, but I tell you that I am so turned off by screaming idiots on the street thumping bibles, fundamentalists with their man made rules, or intrusive whack jobs on my door.  My belief is my own business and I don’t trust any organisation.  I can’t explain why I believe, I just do.  That works for me.  If anyone wants a civilised discussion I am always interested.  But I do think organised religions have done more to turn people away from god than bring them to him.  And many of the ones still involved in the churches I suspect are held by fear and dogma.  Well, that’s my play in the woods today, off to have a nice cuppa!  See ya.

    • neil says:

      10:31am | 10/08/11

      “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” And suddenly a great weight was lifted from me.

      Maybe you should be asking yourself what is missing from your life that are trying to fill with your new invisibles friend., and the fact that you are trying to force it on others to justify it to yourself shhows how insecure you are with it.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      10:37am | 10/08/11

      The article misses the point.

      Recent questions regarding the census question centre on the appropriateness of that question, which is flawed in it’s construction - the author is right, the census will ‘show’ that a large percentage of Aussies ‘believe’ in a ‘religion’, BECAUSE the question is framed to guarantee such a result.

      The inclusion of “Humanist” as an alternative is simply a way of using semantics to reduce the number of ‘no religion’ responses.

      The fact that this is the ONLY question that does not require a response means that any ‘resultant’ % (such as that used by the author from the 2006 census) will be inherently flawed as there is no way to determine why those who did not answer chose not to do so (are they religious?, non-superstitious?, did they refuse on ‘religious grounds’ or simply to exercise the only ‘freedom’ the census provided?).  Without quoting a source, I have heard that the ‘no answer’ tally is as high as the early 20’s (%) - over one fifth of the total. 

      Simple mathematics determine that the same number from a smaller total gives a larger %.

      However the author gives himself away with the notion that anyone who does not want to be mis-represented (i.e. does not agree with him) is “insecure”.

      If I disagree with the rational behind Julia Gillard’s policies - am I ‘insecure’ or am I putting forward an opposing idea?

    • Swingdog says:

      10:54am | 10/08/11

      Here’s a simple way the census could have got round this, just ask:

      “In the last 7 days, have you attended a church / mosque / temple / place of religious worship?”

      Same sort of construct as the travel to work question. That would give a better reflection of the strength of religion and help the government do what it says the census is for, planning for schools, churches etc.

    • Joan says:

      11:05am | 10/08/11

      What nonsense- people understand perfectly well who they are and are unlikely to tick a box that doesn’t reflect who they are, unless they are idiots.. Other- please specify` is a choice. My birth place wasn’t listed nor my parental ancestory, I was quite capable of filling details beyond tick the box. There was nothing flawed about any question on the census - easy to understand., filled it in quick time. But then I know who I am and what I believe in .

    • Joan says:

      11:15am | 10/08/11

      Swingdog:  What makes you think that attendance to place of worship is a a good indicator of religious belief within the populace..? Even Gillard government not that stoopid.

    • Swingdog says:

      11:23am | 10/08/11

      The census isn’t there to remind you who you are.

      It’s there to help governments plan.

    • Mike says:

      12:00pm | 10/08/11

      Who are you Joan? And what do you believe in?

      Also, people are stupid.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      12:11pm | 10/08/11

      Joan,

      And there lies the problem - as atheists are not organised, many see themselves differently, so many will think of themselves as ‘humanists’ as it is a ‘softer’ term than what is unfortunately thought of as ‘atheist’ (although not included in the census, many use the term ‘agnostic’ for the same reason).  This may be due to false claims made by various clergy executives (George Pell’s comments are often hilarious in their misrepresentations and transparent manipulations).

      This splintering of a category manipulates the statistical result (simple mathematics) by increasing the supposed number of ‘religious’ responses and at the same time decreasing the supposed number of ‘non-superstitious’ responses.

      Also the question of the high ‘no answer’ response remains unanswered, which gives a much higher inaccuracy to the resultant determinations (such as the author’s use of the 2006 census percentages).  “… There are lies, damned lies …. and then there are statistics..”

      Given that these responses are going to be used by governments in planning for the future - would you not prefer they reflected society accurately? - or is it more important that a particular group be enabled to force views on others (by claiming a false mandate)?

    • Swingdog says:

      01:02pm | 10/08/11

      It’s a way of distinguishing between people who were born into a religion (and have no need of its facilities) and those who are active. Being religious and being a member of a religion can be two different things.

      As it stands, for the purpose it is supposed to serve, the question is sloppy.

    • Tchom says:

      10:44am | 10/08/11

      I think it was a problem with how the religion question was worded. Did they mean are you culturally Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, etc or do you actively worship?

      Loud, annoying athiests: shut up. Religious people aren’t going to give up their beliefs by being told how stupid they are.

      Loud, annoying religious people: stop lumping all athiests in with the loud annoying athiests. The kind of people who call you stupid and proudly denounce religion aren’t athiests. They’re a**holes. Please make that distinction. Most athiests are people who can’t bring themselves to believe in supernatural powers and just don’t care. Leave us out of it

    • Jenni says:

      10:48am | 10/08/11

      Christian - I don’t understand where your anger is coming from, for it does come across as anger, that non-believers are asking for an accurate representation alongside believers. For the record, I am NOT an atheist; my personal beliefs are my own and bear no relevance to my wish to see all Australians answer the question accurately on Census night.

      This is exactly what atheists, pagans, pantheists etc are asking for. They are not asking for people to deny their beliefs; they are simply asking that everybody give the question a couple of minutes actual thought before ticking a box out of habit which may not actually apply to them.

      Religion is defined in the ABS’s own Australian Standards of Religious Groups (ASCRG) as “…a set of beliefs and practices, usually involving acknowledgment of a divine or higher being or power, by which people order the conduct of their lives both practically and in a moral sense.”

      Is it too much to ask that people actually stop and think about what it is they believe, and the tenets by which they live their life? If people think about it and genuinely feel they believe in, and follow, the tenets of a particular religion then great, go ahead and tick the box to your heart’s content. If you DON’T, then tick “no religion” or fill in the “other” section if your beliefs are one of the minority religions.

      All that is being asked is that people give an accurate answer - again, why does this proposal thretean you so much?

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      12:16pm | 10/08/11

      Exactly - why are some so threatened by correct responses?  It makes us believe that there is something to hide/lose.

    • Mez says:

      11:00am | 10/08/11

      Why do you have to subscribe to an intitutionalised, most likely patriarchal and ageing notion of religion to believe in God?  The census doesn’t ask if you believe in God, it aks for your religion.  I believe fully in the presence of God, I sure as hell don’t believe in the Catholic Church.

    • William says:

      11:02am | 10/08/11

      These comments prove the author is right.. look how many athiests jumped on this article… seems to be they must stamp religion out just so they can justify their beliefs… go try it with the muslims or are you such cowards that you only attack religions who turn the other cheek.

    • grant says:

      11:29am | 10/08/11

      @ William

      Atheism is not a belief system.  It has no structure no beliefs.  Its the absence of belief: - ‘ae-thesim’,  - ‘non theism’.

      As I mentioned earlier.  I think when you closely look at what are technically defined as symptoms of what you believe in William.

      Lets see, you:

      - feel, see or hear things from an omnipotent invisible being
      - you also feel like your being watched by this invisible being; and
      - you feel as though this being can communicate with you (by praying)

      Really, this is what you believe in. 

      Grown mature adults actually think these things are really happening to them?

    • Mark says:

      11:42am | 10/08/11

      Dear William, seems to me religion must stamp out Atheists so they can justify their beliefs…go try it with the muslims or are you such cowards that you only attack religions who turn the other cheek.

      Funny how you forgot about the Crusades.

    • Shenanigans says:

      11:17am | 10/08/11

      ‘I contend that we are both atheists.  I just believe in one fewer god than you do.  When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours’ -Stephen Roberts

      nuff said

    • Paul G. says:

      11:32am | 10/08/11

      I did chuckle.
      Atheists were annoying by pointing out how being “Christian” does not mean a devout [enter religion here].
      They also pointed out how misleading the question is given very serious decisions are made using this data - such as women’s rights, equality, hospital services… and that education, funding and chaplaincy in schools leans on the back of these figures used by lobbyists. Don’t waste a chance to influence your community. What’s so wrong with that?

      People tick a category based on the religion their parents indoctrinated them into. There is no question along the lines of, do you fully practice the religion of your parents? We all know by just looking at churches that 63.9% of Aussies are most certainly not Christian if one uses religion as a marker.

      It is a phoney trick Mr. Kerr and you’ve been caught out. Synopsis? “I was sick of atheists proving the census is flawed re numbers of Christians…. because the 2006 census shows this many Christians…”. Yes, I did chuckle.

      So, I seem to be reading it’s OK for lobbyists to exploit figures but not OK for those who suffer thusly under their yoke to understand how this occurs.

      Some of the best arguments I heard were that Jesus would certainly tick No Religion. Reinforced by the bloated religions, elitism and divisiveness they propagate. Yes, yes I know he came to tear families apart (Matthew 10:35-37), came bearing a sword not peace aiming to set fire on Earth (Luke 12:49-53), denied heaven to the chap who wanted to say goodbye to dad (Luke 9:61,62) and wanted to see slayed, those who wouldn’t follow him before his eyes (Luke 19:27), but in general we think of a nice chap tending his flock.

      Even better arguments were made that the very real values we associate with the nice Jesus are in fact maintained by the non religious or atheists. Abolition of bigotry, elimination of discrimination, acceptance of other cultures, beliefs, persuasions, rights for all women globally, human rights before ones own biases, no justification for war or violence…

      In short, the only connection organised religions have to the nice Jesus is that man made institutions were made using his name. And my, how he would turn away in disgust at these palaces of wealth and exclusion. It is a very strange notion indeed this idea of Christian “religion” in the name of an eccentric Jew.

      But last words should go to Maxwell Smart:
      “We have 63.9% of Christians in Australia, would you believe it!? 63.9%!!”
      “I find that hard to believe, Mr. Smart”.
      “Would you believe a few MCG’s full?”.
      “No”.
      “Oh… how about a bus load of old ladies and the guy making burgers at Safeway?”.

    • ... says:

      02:02pm | 10/08/11

      “I was sick of atheists proving the census is flawed re numbers of Christians…. because the 2006 census shows this many Christians…”

      I resent this! I refuse to believe that ANY Christian would use circular logic to justify their belief

    • Christina says:

      11:35am | 10/08/11

      Thank you Christian for writing my story about the circle of faith that I have also experienced.

      I know I am a better person for attending Church as it takes away most of the anger that modern living seems to engender.  Not all of the anger as am not perfect so still have my moments.

      OMG why are atheists so angry all the time?  Can’t be healthy.  I’ll pray for them.

    • Horse says:

      12:26pm | 10/08/11

      ” .. so angry all of the time.”

      No. Chill.

    • mel says:

      08:58am | 11/08/11

      Wow, such anger still, Christina. How’s your blood pressure? You have to do whatever works for you, of course, but I usually have a cup of tea and watch a bit of TV or read a book to clam down. That way,  you don’t have to put up with all those christians you meet at church!

    • mel says:

      01:22pm | 11/08/11

      Or maybe even calm down. Clams are nice too though.

    • BTU says:

      11:55am | 10/08/11

      As an atheist, I’m often chastised by those around me who are religious, calling me a non believer, and telling me I will go to hell, despite the fact that I pride myself on the tolerance of others religions. I don’t walk up to Christians and assault their beliefs, so why do they insist on assaulting my lack of belief?

      As one of my friends put it, “While I dismiss the notion of god, this does not mean I am devoid of ethics”.

      That is, I’ve adapted the ethics from religious texts, removed the worship parts and applied them to a modern society.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      01:11pm | 10/08/11

      BTU

      “As an atheist, I’m often chastised by those around me who are religious, calling me a non believer, and telling me I will go to hell, despite the fact that I pride myself on the tolerance of others religions. I don’t walk up to Christians and assault their beliefs, so why do they insist on assaulting my lack of belief?”

      This is why many refer to themselves as ‘humanists’ or ‘agnostics’.

    • Jackie in the Catholic Slum says:

      12:01pm | 10/08/11

      Oh Christian those Jesuits never let you go for long, even when you think you have escaped, they pull you back.

    • Frosch says:

      12:03pm | 10/08/11

      yes, i am an atheist and i practice it religiously

    • Liam says:

      12:08pm | 10/08/11

      Christian Kerr - ‘atheists are insecure’? Have you read you own article mate?

      “But three quarters of the way through came a line I had no recollection of: “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” And suddenly a great weight was lifted from me. I’ve been a churchgoer ever since, not every week, but regularly. For religion offers comfort and succour. It offers values and a sense of purpose. Faith in God gives us faith in ourselves.”

      What are you talking about? I have faith in myself because I know myself and I know how i treat other people. Why do you need to subscribe to this bygone era stuff? Religion was created as a form of control over the masses: There are 10 commandments and even if there’s no one around to see you doing the wrong thing, guess what, God can still see you and he can even hear you think!! So you better stay there in your box or the holier-than-thous in power will punish you for your weakness (on behalf of their friend God).

      That is NOT a clear force for good it’s one of our most evil creations. Haven’t you noticed that the younger generations in democratic countries are increasingly secular? It’s because the ideas of Jesus Christ of the Virgin Mary, the 10 commandments and Prophet Mohammed are CLEARLY INSANE. And more than that, the idea of religion is shockingly deceitful and oppressive. We are smarter than that now and will not stand for the tripe that has brought death and sadness to so many millions around the world.

      These religious/control narratives have been a CLEAR force for bad since their creation and the sooner the human race advances past them, the better.

    • Luke says:

      12:37pm | 10/08/11

      Even if the majority believe, it still doesn’t mean a god exists. The only difference between a religious group and a cult are the number of follwers. They all make ridiculous clams with no evidence. Those that believe have little or no scientific understanding or believe the two exist separately. Bloody madness I say!

    • Barry says:

      01:37pm | 10/08/11

      Yeah!  Just like that Isaac Newton fellow, who they call the Father of Modern Science or some rubbish like that.  We all know he had no understanding about science . . . .

    • michael j says:

      01:01pm | 10/08/11

      of course you have been telling them the REAL TRUTH have not you,,it doesn’t matter what you put on youre cenus paper or how you live youre life ,just as long as you repent and embrace Jesus in his 3 form’s before Death and you will be spared Eternity trying to find out what made his dad/himself and his holy sprit so mad they/him/he blew every-thing up in the first place,,,

    • Jim says:

      01:19pm | 10/08/11

      I’m not religous in any way, but I don’t jump about saying “look at me, I’m athiest and all you christians are racist and deluded” like many people do.

      But I find it interesting that many of the commentators above are saying things along the lines of one should not believe in something that is not proven, and many of those are actively spruiking the AGW myth?!

      Let’s see - the Bible; a collection of papers written by various authors of dubious credentials, compiled together by an orginisation that at the time was struggling for power and dominance, who turfed out any of the papers that didn’t agree with the official view they were pushing. This organisation then went about shaming people into submission and in the process became very wealthy by arse-raping the population.

      Climate change theory - a collection of papers written by various authors of dubious credentials, compiled together by an orginisation that is chasing power and dominance, and who turf out any of the papers that don’t agree with the official view they are pushing. This organisation is now shaming governments and entire populations into submission as they arse-rape us and become very rich.

      The gullibility of the left wing blow-hards is almost palpable.

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:40pm | 10/08/11

      The only part I disagree with Jim is: “compiled together by an orginisation that at the time was struggling for power and dominance” No, the Roman Emporer Constantine was very clear with what he wanted out of Nicea. You may be far more familiar with a modern version of the same catch cry - Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer.

      Ok, don’t get your Nazi knickers in a twist. What I mean is, Constantine had one vision - that of himself being the clear undisputed leader of the Empire and he wanted ALL Romans united by one Emperor and One State Faith. And thus the Christianity was ‘born’. Try as they might, the Cathoilic Church haven’t re-written history in its entirety - yet.

    • Cat says:

      01:35pm | 10/08/11

      it is a bit of a circular problem really - if you hold an absolute belief (be it the existance or lack of god) then you assume yourself to know better than someone who doesn’t believe as you do - so, often, religious and atheists alike will reflect back at eachother this divide, each bothered that the other claims to know something they don’t and each feeling themselves to be the wiser of the two. Each side of the coin displays the traits they dislike in eachother - and so the dance goes on forever. I can’t see an end! As long as people seek to have their views heard above someone elses there will be the same damn circular arguments because when people think they are right they will fight for what they believe in, and when people think they know better than others they will fight to impose their views and diminish the possition of those who believe differently and words like “tollerance” “respect” and “charity” stop meaning being tollerant/respectful/charitable towards EVERYONE and start meaning “only being tollerant/respectful/charitable of people who believe as I do”...and we get articles like this where it is nothing but a bunch of individuals(on either side of the debate) taking potshots in an attempt to gain some kind of moral superiority that was lost a long time ago.

    • Chris L says:

      04:49pm | 10/08/11

      One point I’d like to make there Cat. There are no actual rules that atheists themselves want imposed on others. They are calling for the removal of religious impositions such as indoctrination in state schools, censorship, resistance to stem cell research, etc.

      Really the only thing I can see that religious people have to complain about is:
      1: potential removal of their ability to force their rules onto others
      2: having their beliefs ridiculed (which I think should not happen, but I’ve been ridiculed plenty by theists so I guess it all evens out)

      Feel free to disagree. I look forward to reading how people might have a different impression.

    • Cat says:

      10:51am | 13/08/11

      I’m not talking about imposing rules, I’m talking about the nature of discussing an issue where you have two sides that are incapable of seeing eye to eye. You just could NOT resist puting forth the comment that states the case of the belief you hold, and if someone came along and replied with an opposing view you would be back to arguing with them and playing out the exact scenario I wrote about, the endless loop of people who just will not agree no matter WHAT is said. For the record - I support all the aims you mentioned, i just get damn tired of seeing people on both sides unable to grasp that you can’t convince EVERYONE and when you fail to convince someone you have to let it go, not get snide and snarky or downright abusive as some on both sides do. Public debate where people can put forth their case YES, circular shit fights NO.

    • Chris L says:

      03:51pm | 13/08/11

      Yes, you are talking about imposing rules, you said that in your original post and that is where I disagreed with you.

      I am able to grasp that I won’t convince some people. To be honest I’m not sure I’ll convince anybody of anything. I’m just offering up a clarification.

    • Cat says:

      11:32am | 16/08/11

      no, what I said was imposing views - views not rules.

    • fml says:

      01:37pm | 10/08/11

      When all the religious come to a consensus on what is the right religion, give me a call then ill join in.

    • Tedd says:

      02:30pm | 10/08/11

      What about all those that have left religion? Or central religion thinking?

    • Demoman says:

      02:01pm | 10/08/11

      I can’t stand most atheists as I find them obnoxious and preachy which are things I find equally annoying in fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.

      Typically these atheists have adopted a new religion which is progressive leftism and it’s tenets of multiculturalism, feminism, Marxism and political correctness.

      The writer of this article does look like a typical Christian dweeb though and just by looking at him I can tell he is probably a fundamentalist with a chip on his shoulder.

    • DaveinPerth says:

      03:51pm | 10/08/11

      @Demo - I’m an athiest. From your comment above, does this mean I also have to stop being a sexist and inappropriate capitalist as well ?

      I didn’t realise there was so many requirements? I just thought it was an IQ test ?

    • Demoman says:

      05:32pm | 10/08/11

      I am an atheist. I simply find many of them to be obnoxious and hypocritical as they act like religious fundamentalists yet are critical of that behavior when the religious do it. These particular ones are as I describe in my previous comment.

      The other segment of the atheist community doesn’t go on about their atheism ad nauseum as their atheism is simply a response to the question “Do you believe in god?” to which they will answer “no”. No doctrine, end of story.

      Not terribly interested in being associated with the petulant children that are the current day atheists.

    • Fedup says:

      02:17pm | 10/08/11

      All religions are based upon the big circular argument:
      I have faith because the [holy book] contains the true holy word.
      I know the [holy book] contains the true holy word because I have faith.
      Be kind, courtous and true to yourselves and others, and please stop being so defensive about it all. A little less [insert religion] agression would go down very well indeed.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      03:03pm | 10/08/11

      Sorry, Christian, but I can find no question within the ABS Census Papers that asks us “Do you believe religion is a clear force for good?”
      The only question about religion asks us to nominate which religion we belong to.
      Your claim that religion is a clear force for good is entirely a personal claim by you. You are entitled to believe that if you wish. However, you are not entitled to imply that the Census indicates this.
      For every instance you care to cite of religion being a “Force for Good” there will be at least one matching instance where it can be shown to be a “Force for Evil”.
      Think back to the “Troubles” in that tiny province in Ireland, Ulster. Almost entirely based on religion. Yet all the people running around killing each other were almost without exception Christians who claimed to believe in the same God. The same 10 Commandments, one of which clearly & uneqivocally states “Thou (you) shalt NOT kill”
      Look what is happening in Afghanistan today. The population there is almost entirely Muslim. They all belive in the same Allah &, incidently, the have the same 10 Commandments, including the “Thou (you) shalt NOT kill”
      What are they doing? Just like the religionists in Northern Ireland ran/run around killing their own so, too, are the Muslims in Afghanistan!
      Depending on one’s twisted outlook the idea of Muslims killing Muslims or Christians killing Christians could be regarded as religion being “A Force for Good” couldn’t it?

    • Ben81 says:

      03:08pm | 10/08/11

      The census thing was about educating people that it actually has an effect on government funding and services, and that it’s not a good thing to tick “christian” or whatever just because you think it’s some kind of identity by default even if you don’t follow or believe it.  There are concerns that this is behind innacurate statistics and considering, as you say, most people don’t even attend church those concerns are probably valid.
      Where’s the problem with that?

    • Al Chunk says:

      03:46pm | 10/08/11

      This Christian Kerr is rather nasty and vindictive - he must be religious.

    • Wilma J Craig says:

      03:56pm | 10/08/11

      Non-God Botherers (NGBs) insecure? Balderdash! Stuff’n'Nonsense!
      Do you really believe that, Christian? If you do you believe anyhting a priest or pastor tells you!
      If anything NGB’s are the most secure of all people. They do not depend on some out-of-world, invisible, all-powerful, omniscient being to protect them, support them, act as a crutch for them, to blame for everything that goes wrong in their own small world & the wider world at large!
      NGBs believe in Self-reliance, Taking Responsibility for all their actions or decisions - good or bad.
      They won’t buy the nonsense as put about by some that the Bible is the Word of God. It never was for it was written, with the possible exception of the Book of Ruth, by men. It was written solely as a quasi-historical record but, more importanntly, as a Manual for Control Freaks. Set up entirely to enable a small group of males to control all other human beings. A manual for the denigration, exploitation of females. In Orthodox Judaism women are not allowed to sit with men in their synagogues. In Islam (yes despite the Quran’they take their teachings from the old testament) women are not allowed to sit with the men. In both religions they are forced to sit apart & behind screens. In this Christianity does differ in that it does allow men & women to sit together but, particularly within your original religion - as it was mine - Roman Catholicism - women are not allowed to become priests & on election the Pope is required to go through a demeaning “fiddling with the twiddly bits” to prove that he is indeed a male! How perverted is that?
      Women are regarded by most religions as Second or Third Class. They are subject to the rules laid down by men for the benefit of men.
      I can just hear some yelping “She’s just another of those damned feminist-lesbians!”
      Actually, you would be wrong! I don’t much like women & in my day enjoyed a good romp in the double bed - with a male!
      We NGBs are far stronger morally, spiritually (that got you didn’t it?) & ethically than your average God-botherer. That does not mean we don’t believe in an after-life but it’s not the fluffy, boring “Angels on Clouds” or the “Eternity in Purgatory, Hell-Fire in Damnation” after-life God-botherers believe in & expect.

    • Ross says:

      04:42pm | 10/08/11

      When the old man was pointing he kept saying dog,dog, dog,and the reporter back in the year 0001BC. wrote it down as god,god,god, for he was dyslexic and probably worked for Murdock.That’s what happened because I know these things, my Gordon Setter told me and he would not lie.

    • Wilma J Craig says:

      01:59pm | 13/08/11

      Ross, is this Murdock you mention a new player in the world’s media for, despite my 84 years, I have never heard of her/him!
      Or do you mean Murdoch as in Rupert Murdoch of News Ltd, Corp, International? Now him I have heard of & like all Tall Poppies some seem intent on chopping his head off.
      Of course, certain types of Poppies which also grow tall have a lovely, smooth bulb near the top full of what they tell me is a substance which can kill (opium) or relieve great pain (morphine) & is legally grown in Tasmania!!!

    • Emma says:

      05:47pm | 10/08/11

      (Heads up, this is the point of view of a 17 year old girl currently sitting her HSC, so hormones may run a wee bit high here.)

      Atheists, I completely respect your belief that there is no God. Perfectly fine. But one thing that I don’t understand is the amount of hatred towards fundamentalist religious groups who force-feed their beliefs down others throats, when a minority of atheists seem to be doing exactly the same thing with their own views.

      This goes for religious AND non-religious people - believe what you want to believe (or not believe), just don’t be so arrogant to think that your point of view is the only correct point of view. Not everyone who believes in some form of a god is a soft-headed brainwashed twit.

    • decko says:

      06:11pm | 10/08/11

      Actually Emma Atheists don’t ‘believe’ their is no god, most simply need evidence that there is one, and there is no evidence. In the same way there’s no evidence that Fred Nile has wings attached to his scrotum

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:26pm | 10/08/11

      Emma I’m not sure what god you believe in but I’m proud to be one in heart with mine and He Loves all mankind and like Him I’m also aware that those who reject the Christian God or worship other god’s till death will spend eternity in Hell,  this is their choice not God’s, it is not His will that anyone perishes and that includes you.

      So if we as Christians are to Love others including our enemies and that also means those who reject the very God who created them and it is by their rejection they make themselves enemies of the cross of Christ Jesus and His followers, yet we hold back from sharing the good news of Salvation with them,  then it is just the same as watching someone about to fall to their death but not being willing to warn them they are in danger because they are walking in the wrong direction which will lead them to a crumbling cliff edge and a horrendous painful death that there is no escape from.

      Besides Christians Love and compassion for others, it is God who instructs us to warn them by sharing His Truth,  and because we Love Him very much,  we also obey Him and believe me Emma regardless of what you believe and try to project onto others as shown by your post,  His view is the only correct one and the only one that counts and anything that contradicts it is just worldly foolishness.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:45pm | 10/08/11

      decko says…Atheists don’t ‘believe’ their is no god, most simply need evidence that there is one, and there is no evidence…...

      Are you so sure decko that there is no evidence that the Christian God your creator does not exist ...you are alive are you not and the believe in evolution as to the reason how we came to be, has never been proven…. so where did you come from decko please provide evidence or I will have to deny your existence….sounds silly, sure does and so does what Atheists propagate.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      09:18am | 11/08/11

      @Emma, it is a feature of people that they cannot leave each other alone. Maybe its a throwback to our tribal roots where outsiders were held in suspicion, survival depended upon being part of the group and deviance might mean hardship or death. I have noticed the more strident one side gets the other rises to meet them. Anger follows and then the insults flow.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:58pm | 12/08/11

      Emma, I have no reason to insult you, warn you yes, but not put you down as a person of worth, this was never my intention or would it be other caring Christians, but most importantly nor does God. He Loves you as He does all mankind including those who reject Him, He does not want anyone to perish and has provided a way of escape in His Son Jesus Christ. He also offers fellowship and Love with others who believe in Him in the Body of Christ, and unlike the Tribes that were mentioned,  including Atheists and Cults whose focus is on themselves, their dogma can lead to heartache but the Body of Christ is there to encourage, help and uplift you and if needed warn you when you are in danger,  they take the time to care and be involved, unlike those who are just to busy with their own lives accept when they want to put others down and make fun of God their Creator…Kind regards Anne.

    • Damian says:

      05:57pm | 10/08/11

      Christian, if you are interested in statistics, I think you will find an increasing number of people do not believe in gods.  that primarily is because religion excludes many people, eg, gay, lesbian etc.

    • wearestardust says:

      07:16pm | 10/08/11

      Athiests are insecure?  Are Christians insecure?  I dunno.  They’re both pretty broad groups.  I know people of faith with whom I have mutual respect of beliefs and who are strong secularists and who don’t feel the need to promote intolerance and hatred.  Some of them are even gay.  I have come across fellow atheists who are racist, or homophobic, or any other number of unpleasantnesses. 

      But let’s look at atheists active in the public space:

      Atheists: would like people to answer the census correctly.

      Christians (just picking a few off the top of my head):

      - argue vehemently against the suggestion that people should answer the census correctly
      - so scared of homosexuality that they want to restrict the rights of LGBTI rights relative to the rest of the community
      - so scared of R-rated games they don’t want anyone to have them
      - so scared of careful examination of their tax exempt status they conflate exemptions for religion with exemptions for charities
      - so worried about perceptions of the chaplaincy program that they say in public that it is not about preaching but behind closed doors proclaim it as an opportunity to preach
      - so worried about their preeminent place in society that they actively promote Islamaphobia
      -  so worried about the fate of SRI programs that they resort to justifying it on the basis that the bible has literary value

      Who’s insecure?

      Oh, one more:

      - don’t understand stats (being generous).

      The question in the census is about religion, not belief in god.  Some religions don’t believe in god.  As for the others; given that church attendance for those nominating a major religion ranges from about five per cent to fifteen percent (Catholics seem to be at the high end, but the latest data I could find quickly is about ten years old and church attendance has been sliding.  That’s 85 per cent of Catholics in a state of mortal sin, btw).  Does that support serious belief in god or serious faith?  Sure, some people prefer to worship outside a organised religious context, but when only between one in 6 and one in 20 of the people who claim to be part of a Christian denomination actually participate in the core practice of communal worship, one has to wonder.

      It’s precisely that sort of abuse of statistics that motivates the ‘if you’re not religious, then tick no religion’ campaign.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      07:30pm | 10/08/11

      God is knife fighter and he loves to twist the knife…..

    • Brian says:

      09:02pm | 10/08/11

      “a clear majority of us will have told the census we believe in God”

      No, the census doesn’t ask us if we believe in god.  In any case, when that question was asked by Phillip Hughes of the Christian Research Associationin in his 2010 survey, only 47% of Australians said they believed (http://www.cra.org.au/Pointers20-2.pdf).

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:09am | 11/08/11

      Ross says… When the old man was pointing he kept saying dog,dog, dog,and the reporter back in the year 0001BC. wrote it down as god,god,god, for he was dyslexic

      It seems Ross you are making fun of people who have the gift of being Dyslexia well you are also making fun of me, but let me reassure you that I have never mixed up our Awesome God with a dog,  they are part of His creation but are not as a high order them man let alone God and man is far superior too as they are to all of the rest of God’s Creation, Mankind are made in His image even if we are fallen and need to be restored, healed and perfected.

      It seems you don’t know what being Dyslexic is all about Ross but to keep this short I will only share a few things,  but you can check out the link below and it will clarify it much more for you.

      Yes there are downs with being Dyslexic but many more ups,  in my own life I experienced not being able to read and write till I was over 12 years and not being able to play sport or dance or drive a car,  my coordination is a problem and I can not spell or understand grammar or Maths but not all have the same disadvantages. On the up side I’m very creative and analytical which means I can see the big picture and I can also see outside the box and I solve problems in a different way to others and also like a lot of people who are Dyslexic, I’m also left handed. But God always compensats those who have disabilities

      Famous People with the Gift of Dyslexia -  http://www.dyslexia.com/famous.htm

      Kind regards Anne

    • mel says:

      11:15am | 11/08/11

      Anne, I think you got it wrong again. Dogs are awesome, not so sure about your gods however.

      Cats, meh.

    • clayton says:

      12:36pm | 11/08/11

      My neighbour filled in Uniting Church in her census form because her sister told her she should because that had been the family church. Neither had belonged to any religous group or church since childhood. So the figures remain scewed.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      04:41pm | 11/08/11

      mel says…Anne, I think you got it wrong again. Dogs are awesome, not so sure about your gods…Cats, meh…. Thinking you are a cat Mel would probably throw some light on to the reason why you had problems understanding my post, anyway I do seek to be patient so I will once again explain who my God is… so please put the catnip down and concentrate…

      Mel I don’t think, I know you have it wrong, I don’t believe in gods… only one God your Creator and who you are answerable to like the rest of us even if you believe your a cat ... My God is Awesome but animals although part of His blueprint in His incredible Creation are not on the same level as Mankind let alone God who created them and the Universe and everything in it…Evolution has never been proven. Mankind is far superior then the rest of God’s Creation, because we are made in His image meaning The Godhead as Genesis tells us, even though we are fallen and need to be restored, healed and perfected.
      Hope that helps… I kept it short for you Mel realising the shortness of your attention span, Cats need lots of cat naps as you know…. 

      Hummm… not so sure about Atheists just being insecure I think they may have lost it! at least those who think they are cats but love dogs… Now I love dogs but I don’t think I’m one…Dog are awesomë ( lower case “a” ) Yep they sure are the cat’s meow.

      Kind regards Anne… very much a human being and thankful for it.

    • mel says:

      08:30am | 12/08/11

      No, Anne, you have it wrong again. I shall try once more to explain. Dogs are Awesome (to use that quaint random capitalisation thing so beloved of religious types)!  Whichever paltry god you have chosen to worship isn’t as awesome as a dog, because, simply put, I have ample evidence of how Awesome dogs are, whereas you have none for your version of a deity. None.

      And can I clarify this for you since you seemed to base your post on a complete misunderstanding: nowhere did I write that I was a cat. I have absolutely no idea where or how you got that impression.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      04:40pm | 12/08/11

      Mel says…nowhere did I write that I was a cat. I have absolutely no idea where or how you got that impression… Perhaps it was because you signed your post with a cat’s comment ...“Cats, meh”... most use a human name or quote (:

      You said Mel I have no evidence that supports our God who created us and the Universe,  but I do and it can’t be refuted it is unshakable but what evidence do you have of both Evolution and the Big bang,  they have never been proven and you do exist and so does your dog as well as mine, have you ever tried to create a dog from nothing and have you ever noticed your belly button?

      But seriously, I asked my dog Monty the other night what he thought about the Political situation in Jakarta, but he just licked me, waged his tail and went back to sleep and so did Missy my other dog when I asked her.

      So can you please explain to me Mel if Evolution is correct why no other species can talk as Humans can, or did Apes and dogs evolve from Man and so they communicate in a much more advanced and sophisticated way then we do,  but strangely they don’t have belly buttons like ours and no other animals do and they have never found any that have in the fossil remains or have they found the missing link,  the last one they produced, was proven to be an extinct cat.(:

      But there is actually a considerable body of sound, Scientific evidence that contradicts the theory of Evolution and the Big Bang, some of which is absolutely incompatible with the Theory only a few things that also supports Creation are viable, if you want more understanding Mel of where you and your dog came from please Click link below…

      http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/aqoo/

      Kind regards Anne… human in origin and proud of it.

    • Chris L says:

      04:08pm | 13/08/11

      Mel, you are hilarious. Also I agree with you on your assessment of dogs. They truly are great!

    • mel says:

      12:05pm | 15/08/11

      Chris L, cheers!

      Anne Stocks, no, the last sentence of my post was not my signature but rather my comment on cats. “Meh”, means that they are just not that interesting to me. Why is it that so many christians have such difficulty in reading comprehension?

      Secondly, are you telling me that you really believe that dogs do not have belly buttons? You christians just aren’t into this evidence thing, are you? Look at your dogs, do some research (simply typing “dog’s belly buttons” into google will do) and you will realise that they do have navels. They’re just a bit hard to find.

      You say that you have evidence for the existence of gods, but since you believe that dogs don’t have belly buttons, I get the feeling that your evidence won’t be all that irrefutable. Anyway, give it a try: post it on this site and let’s all have a look.

      (I am no expert in evolutionary science so I will not comment on the ‘facts’ presented in your link. There are many others who could discuss the evidence much better than me, if you were really interested. Even so, if the theory of evolution was incorrect, then it doesn’t mean that your paltry version of a god did it either.)

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:07am | 17/08/11

      Mel says…  are you telling me that you really believe that dogs do not have belly buttons?....Mel if you are going to comment on someone’s post it would help if you read it properly, perhaps you ability to comprehend is a put off with all the scratching around you have been doing ...what I said was .....they don’t have belly buttons like ours, no animal does! and since Darwin claimed we evolved from a Ape, it does not add up.

      So Mel if we didn’t come from Apes and God didn’t create us as you claim…where did we come from…Nothing ? have you created that Dog yet?

      Also I have never said that I believe in gods…. I believe in one God your creator who you like everyone else are answerable to.

      As far as comprehension goes, if you talk like a cat Mel then human beings won’t be able to understand you but don’t worry I’m sure another cat would.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      10:31am | 17/08/11

      Now,  Anne Stocks, are you saying that just because dogs, primates, mammals don’t have exactly the same belly button as humans, we can’t have evolved? Your understanding of evolution isn’t very good, is it? Placental mammals have belly buttons of various types since we have evolved from a common ancestor however many million years ago. Check your local dog, dolphin or primate and you will find a belly button (ie, the scar left from the umbilical cord)! True! Non-placental mammals (monotremes and marsupials) do not have belly buttons as they reproduce differently. It’s not that hard to understand.

      Anne Stocks, you also haven’t produced your evidence that your paltry god is awesome. I can only guess that you don’t have any. So no, I don’t have to answer to what seems to be a figment of your imagination.

    • Adam Ant says:

      07:30pm | 11/08/11

      Who’s more insane? The person who believes in an unseen entity or the peson who writes to that entity telling it that it doesn’t exist - yes i’m looking at you XTC.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:33pm | 11/08/11

      Natasha says: For those who believe in god, why do you believe in god?.... Would you believe in something that a person with a vested interest was telling you? 

      Natasha I cannot speak for others even those who call themselves Christians although many feel as I do, but I can speak for God and myself… for God because He has told me to in His word and for me because I have no doubt that what He has told me is True.

      What I share with you Natasha will not gain me material rewards and anything I have done for the Lord to help others I have never asked for any money or have I charged for helping others to understand about our God of Love even when it has cost me financially to do so and I have no regret about this it gives me Joy to Help others have the Joy and certainly I have in a God who has great Love and compassion for all Mankind.

      As for God He is not interested in worldly wealth and chattels, He can just snap His fingers and have more wealth then all that is in the world, money it is not His focus but it is His desire that no one perishes and for Children not to starve and for us to have what we need not just for this life but for Eternity.

      Do you have a home Natasha and do you pay rent or a mortgage ? do you use electricity, water, phone etc? have you employed a painter or a handyman, all must be paid for, a Church is no different and to be able to offer people a place to come and learn about God or worship Him, costs money and to reach out to starving Children and Adults providing food, water and all other basic other needs costs money. 

      The Church does not tell you how much you are to give for it’s continuance and Missions if it does ..run… but God does,  He knows what is needed financially to do His work in the world but He would rather you give nothing if it is not willingly and from your heart.

      God’s work done in God’s way never lacks His supply.

      If you really want to know more about The God who greatly Loves you Natasha and why I know without doubt the He is real without costing you anything except time, then my e-mail address is ... anne.stocks@yahoo.com.au

      Kind regards Anne.

    • TJ Wylde says:

      10:43pm | 11/08/11

      If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able?
      Then he is not omnipotent

      Is he able, but not willing?
      Then he is malevolent

      Is he neither willing or able?
      Then why call him God

      Epicurus 33AD

      Don’t say that evil is in the world because of the Devil because God created the Devil in the fairy tale.

      Read you fairy tale because it comforts you but don’t think that is comforts anyone else.

      There are not always answer why things happen but we can learn how everything happens.

      Religon has tried to block science at almost every major turn and failed as the more it explains the less it is God’s hand moving. If religon had its way we would all still believe that the world was flat and the earth was the centre of the universe and mental illnesses are demonic possesion.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:35am | 12/08/11

      TJ Wylde says… If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent….

      I understand your confusion TJ Wylde I also experienced this even after believing God was real and seeking to be a Christian, these doubts kept coming up, but doubts are not always bad things if they make us seek for more understanding. I asked God to help me overcome my unbelief even though in other ways I did believe and I also asked Him for His wisdom and it was after doing this that I started to see God as He truly is… Loving, Patient, Tolerant, Kind, Compassionate etc and my doubts disappeared.

      Perhaps TJ Wylde it would be helpful if I shared some of the Truths about God that many don’t understand but then without God’s wisdom you may still not be able to understand them as the Scriptures tell us in Corinthians 2:14 and others, but I will try to explain at least in reference to one of your statements otherwise the post will be too long, but I still may have to use two posts as this subject requires a lot of detail….

      You claimed ... If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not Omnipotent…. If He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent….

      Yes there is much evil in this world and suffering and it grieves God greatly, He is Love and can do no evil or does He willingly allow it or agree with it, evil is part of the fall the same as sickness, suffering etc and it is also propagated by Satan and those under his control. God did not create Satan evil, all His Creation was good until the fall, but like us He gave him free will and Satan chose to usurp God’s Authority because of his pride, he wanted to be worshiped and to be in control.. evil is the absence of Love and seeks to destroy and cause suffering. God is being patient and tolerating evil so that none of His children will perish but that all of them will come to heart repentance and be saved, He knows those who are His and those who are not but He Loves all Mankind and blesses even those who do evil by providing what they need through His care and provision for His redeemed Children.

      Even if you TJ Wylde were the only one of God’s children who still hadn’t come to heart repentance, He would continue tolerating the evil in this world till you did even though it grieves Him greatly, so you would not suffer eternally…but it is always your choice, God will never go against your free will,  but if you are His child He will discipline you till you do seek Him, meaning He will let you suffer the consequences of your own evil actions and others without His intervening and strengthening you, although you never will be far from his watchful eye and if you are in danger of death will intervene according to His will. God chose those who are His children to be conformed into the image of His Son even before they were born knowing that they would come to heart repentance,  He sets the stage to bring them to their senses and a True knowledge of Himself but those who reject Him and His guidelines still have no excuse because His reality can still be seen in Creation even though they choose not to seek Him. Also because of deception such as Evolution and the Big bang etc He reveals to them His Truth which is another reason why they will be without excuse,  but it is still their choice to accept or reject Him and so it is them who will be responsible for where they will spend eternity not God, He has provided a way of escape through His Son Jesus Christ who is part of the Godhead. Kind regards Anne.

    • BB says:

      09:34am | 12/08/11

      “The census will show religion is a clear force for good in our society.”
      You see, it’s a statement such as that which goes to prove the point of “insecure atheists”. You want to have faith in a higher power, sure, go ahead. Does such a faith provide some with comfort and purpose? I’m sure it does. But you my friend are confusing the issue of faith with the institution of Religion. Every religious institution is a 100% creation of MAN not GOD, MAN. As with any man made creation it is fundamentally flawed.
      At least two of the “great monotheistic” religions you so praise are the very same institutions that are responsible for more oppression, death and sadness than any other man made creation ever conceived. Interesting how those who praise the good are oblivious to empirical evidence of the bad (much like a drug addict really…).

    • Anne Stocks says:

      02:05pm | 12/08/11

      BB says…Interesting how those who praise the good are oblivious to empirical evidence of the bad…. To make such a flawed comment BB if you are referring to Christians but not too sure, if so it is you who are blind to the reality of evil… as Christians like everyone else we don’t have to look very far to see the horrific results of evil all around us, have you not heard that Christians are being martyred and tortured for their faith in some Countries around the World today, what many need to do who are as you claim are oblivious to that which is evil even in themselves,  which is not True Christians, who do indeed have their eyes open, is to stop dulling their senses with their own type of drugs, approved of or not.

      I agree with you B.B that man made religion has done much damage to Society and to the World and so have those who reject the God who created them. Christians who believe in God who created everything in the Universe,  do not have the same focus as those who depend on their own understanding and promote a god that suits there agenda and sadly some of these are in the Churches and they are rejecting God’s guidelines and His Truth, Cults also deceive and cause heartache, but a lot are also known as Atheists and Agnostics and promote their own gods, even though they claim not to have any.

      Will there be many who will continue to stand up for God’s Truth regardless of the cost… no the Scriptures tell us in comparison to those who will take the easy way or the wide road only a few will take the straight narrow road.

      So will the Census results in regards to the number of people claiming to be religious make any difference to Christians assurance of our God of Love who cares and provides for us regardless of the bad circumstances we encounter in life, including those ones promoted by an Atheistic Government and those who uphold their agenda ... No Christians are not deceived we know what is ahead,  it has been clearly prophesised in the Bible and like all the other prophesies that were written 1,000’s of years before they were fulfilled, these prophesies will be fulfilled too and some are happening today, but those of us who walk in Christ Jesus do not fear like those who don’t believe in The God that created them or those who don’t know His True Nature which is eternal Love and goodness, because they have no Hope and they are also unaware of the strength of our faith because they cannot understand the assurance and Trust in God that we have that all things will work out for good for us, even death.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • James says:

      10:13am | 12/08/11

      I’m gonna take much joy when the result of the census starts being released and you’re proven wrong. Not only does religion not have a majority of support in Australia but religion does not have a place in our modern society.

      Keep you’re eyes and ears open Christian and you might actually come around and we’ll be 1 person closer to moving forwards instead of backwards like we are at the current state.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:04am | 12/08/11

      Dear Christian Kerr, I think my first reality of how Awesome God was, and I will use your own words was when I had glimpses of the startling beauty of nature…. Sadly even though it was all around me I had never really seen it.

      It was not until a friend asked me to create a Power point for her using Carnations, that my focus changed and will never be the same again. At the time I thought how boring, red and white and mixed red and white, as you can see I’m no gardener, but not wanting to disappoint her, I started collecting the pictures of Carnations that would be needed it was then that I was overwhelmed with the variety and beauty of them and the colours in all varying shades just took my breath away and brought me to tears, how could I have been so blind.
      Since then I have created many other Power points featuring God’s Creation in all it’s forms and verities and I’m always amazed and give thanks to Him for it’s incredible and overwhelming beauty and in many ways perfection.

      Thank you Christian for sharing from your heart… “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” And suddenly a great weight was lifted from me. I’ve been a Churchgoer ever since.

      Many Christian men and woman have had simular profound experiences which have been like yours and have gone on to achieve great things in the Lord’s name through His power and equipping. I’m sure as you focus on the Lord and put Him first in everything, you will also be able to achieve more then you have already done.

      Once again thank you for making a stand for what you believed was true, because right or wrong if we don’t stand for something we will fall for everything, but we never have to worry that our God of Love is not True and by believing and fully understanding His power and the never ending goodness and His divine Nature, we will not be in error in sharing His Truth or have feelings of insecurity.

      Take Care in Jesus - Christian Love Anne.

    • Richard says:

      01:20pm | 12/08/11

      Anne Stocks and Joan, this one’s for you - but any other Christians out there please feel free to respond as well;

      Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

      This is not my quote - it has been referenced a couple of times above already but no one professing to be Christian ever seems to respond to this quote.

      I think they find it too uncomfortable.  Let’s see someone have a lash at it.  The quote, not me.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      02:30pm | 12/08/11

      Richard says…Anne Stocks and Joan, this one’s for you.. It would benefit you Richard if you read previous posts that answer the statements that you have repeated ... but once again I will respond to ....Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not Omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.

      As I shared before, I understand the confusion about God’s Nature,  I also experienced this even after believing God was real and seeking to be a Christian, these doubts kept coming up so from teaching that was in error, but doubts are not always bad things if they make us seek for more understanding. I asked God to help me overcome my unbelief even though in other ways I did believe and I also asked Him for His wisdom and it was after doing this that I started to see God as He truly is… Loving, Patient, Tolerant, Kind, Tolerant Compassionate etc and my doubts disappeared.

      I have shared some of the Truths about God that many don’t understand because without God’s wisdom they will not be able to unless they seek Him, which the Bible tells us in Corinthians 2:14 .

      Yes there is much evil in this world and suffering and it grieves God greatly, He is Love and can do no evil or does He willingly allow it or agree with it, evil is part of the fall the same as sickness, suffering etc and it is also propagated by Satan and those under his control. God did not create Satan evil, all His Creation was good until the fall, but like us He gave him free will and Satan chose to usurp God’s Authority because of his pride, he wanted to be worshiped and to be in control.. evil is the absence of Love and seeks to destroy and cause suffering. God is being patient and tolerating evil so that none of His children will perish but that all of them will come to heart repentance and be saved, He knows those who are His and those who are not but He Loves all Mankind and blesses even those who do evil by providing what they need through His care and provision for His redeemed Children.

      Even if you Richard were the only one of God’s children who still hadn’t come to heart repentance, He would continue tolerating the evil in this world till you did even though it grieves Him greatly, so you would not suffer eternally…but it is always your choice, God will never go against your free will,  but if you are His child He will discipline you till you do seek Him, meaning He will let you suffer the consequences of your own evil actions and others without His intervening and strengthening you, although you never will be far from his watchful eye and if you are in danger of death will intervene according to His will. God chose those who are His children to be conformed into the image of His Son even before they were born knowing that they would come to heart repentance,  He sets the stage to bring them to their senses and a True knowledge of Himself but those who reject Him and His guidelines still have no excuse because His reality can still be seen in Creation even though they choose not to seek Him. Also because of deception such as Evolution and the Big bang etc He reveals to them His Truth which is another reason why they will be without excuse,  but it is still their choice to accept or reject Him and so it is them who will be responsible for where they will spend eternity not God, He has provided a way of escape through His Son Jesus Christ who is part of the Godhead.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Richard says:

      02:17pm | 15/08/11

      Anne, you appear to be saying that God could prevent evil and is willing to but does not.  Seemingly this is justified on the basis of needing to give mankind free will.  Perhaps I should clarify that I would include in my definition of evil the death of children in natural disasters, or at the hands of psychologically ill people.

      If you can explain why God decided not to prevent the pain and suffering caused by the Boxing Day tsunami or the droughts in East Africa, I look forward to it.  Telling me that it is to protect our free will is not going to cut it.  There is no link whatsover.

      One cannot choose to believe.  You either believe or you do not.  How can you claim that humans should be punished for not believing in something which is simply impossible for them to believe?

      If God indeed exists and is willing to condemn those people, such as myself, then I will be quite happy to stand in front of him/her/it and tell him/her/it that they are unreasonable, unkind and cruel and that I am morally superior, and I will happily take the consequences.

      Congratulations for trying but your response is an abysmal attempt.  Evil exists, and if God were truly omnipotent he would be able to resolve the issues you raise without the need for such pain and suffering.  If this world is his best efforts then I think his work is pretty poor.  If I were omnipotent I can assure you I would do a better job and I would not be so egocentric as to demand others worship me.  Why isn’t God content just being himself?  Why does he need worship?  What is wrong with him/her that he/she needs poor little humans to worship him/her?  Just get on with it.  What a loser.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:11pm | 16/08/11

      Richard says…my definition of evil is the death of children in natural disasters, or at the hands of psychologically ill people….That is also my definition of evil Richard and is part of a fallen world but so is the evil that we all witness such as death, sickness, suffering, cruelty, murder, theft, lies, sexual perversion, physical violence etc and also the evil that is kept hidden such as little girls and boys being molested and as I was one of them surely I have every right to hate those who perpetrated this horrendous crime and abomination against me from the age of 3, not once but 5 times and by different men who were all Atheists and one of those cruel acts of perversion was by a Doctor who raped me.

      I have chosen with the Lord’s empowering to forgive these men because not to do so would be like mixing poison for them but drinking it myself. To hold onto bitterness and resentment eats you away like cancer. I have also now been healed by the Lord, yes I still have the scars but not the pain and anger that came with them…do I consider myself better then these men and more worthy of God’s Love and mercy, well it is something that I will share in response to your questions later.

      But in regards to answering all your questions Richard, I will do so one at a time so please ask again in order of importance but if you only like your reading to be instant like some coffee and find it hard to concentrate for more then a few minutes, then forget it because to answer them will require detail…your choice just let me know….

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:28pm | 12/08/11

      BTU says… why do they insist on assaulting my lack of belief?.... if it is not Cults or those who promote their own man made religion that you are referring to and if we are really being honest they don’t it is your rejection to what they are sharing that makes you feel they are trying to hurt you. What Christians do is warn those who are in danger and it is not just about their own agenda it is what God asks them to do because He Loves you as He does all Mankind and so does not want you or anyone to perish… but it will always be your choice and Christians know that and so does God and He will never go against your free will or anyone else’s…it is your choice were you spend eternity but God wants you to be with Him and He has provided the why so you can be.

      Kind regards Anne .

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:24pm | 12/08/11

      Supergirl says… If you think about ‘accepted religions’ in an anthropological sense/outsider view, Christianity etc is no different from what ‘civilised’ people call voodoo, tribal customs or even scientology.

      The Truth is Supergirl you can’t understand Christianity from the outside looking in, it’s impossible because it’s a personal relationship with our Creator, so your worldly understanding is only based on your own preconceived or others ideas of what Christianity is all about, which has very little resemblance to the Truth.

      Going by your post I take it that you have also been involved with Voodoo and Scientology and participated in strange Tribal customs or are they also something you just think you have understanding of without having experienced them for yourself and yet you still claim 100% as you did that Christianity follows the same Patten as they do and their dogma is what we practice.

      I was an agro Atheist for almost 30 years and experienced all the insecurity that involved,  including not facing the reality of never knowing how this world and myself came to be, so accept for a child like understanding of Jesus for a few years, which was taken from me by the deception of unproven Evolution teaching, I was lost in make believe and denial .

      I have now been a Christian for 30 years and have experienced many ups and downs but I know without a doubt which side of the fence I would rather be on and believe me it’s not yours Supergirl,  even your name like others is based on fancy,  perhaps you have always wanted to be to be a comic strip heroin and this is your chance and using big words makes you feel powerful and more superior, so what will you call yourself tomorrow…  Wonder Woman or haven’t you grown up yet.

      Kind regard Anne -  free from Atheistic insecurities and vain imaginings, thanks to a very real God who Loves and cares for me as He does all His Children.

    • Paulb says:

      12:04am | 13/08/11

      “free from Atheistic insecurities and vain imaginings, thanks to a very real God who Loves and cares for me as He does all His Children.”

      yeah if you wish hard enough, and obviously long enough.  Can the adults resume the discussion now please?

    • A Spade's a Spade says:

      10:29pm | 26/08/11

      So Anne, In order to belive you must believe. Have you yet earned you doctorate in apologetics? Your arguments (this very description is being generous!) are fallacious and are based on one unreasobale premise after another. Accept the fact that all the poor decisions that you have made in your life (and I have read your various testimonials) are up to you to deal with. No omnipotent being shall absolve your of your poor decision making. We are alone in this univeres with the exception of the tangible realm in which we exist. Admit that your faith is faith based and leave it at that. This is a position that canbe respected. On the contrary, I do not respect your baseless and egregious assertions that there is tangible evidence for your god - for this is but a figment of your imagination. Faith is fait. Evidence is evidence. Have a nice day!!

    • cybacaT says:

      10:35pm | 12/08/11

      Those asking for hard proof of God, or to be convinced - will be sorely disappointed.  God just IS - it’s up to you to figure that out for yourself.  The stakes for you are higher than anything else you’ll do in life, so invest a little time and stop waiting for someone to hand everything to you on a silver platter.

      If you need a more immediate reason, look at London and see what happens when a former Christian, peaceful and prosperous country allows atheist ideas to overrun a nation.  People with no concern for others, consumed by greed, prepared to use violence and making up their own standards.  Atheism is the biggest fail our Earth has seen so far, so yes - thank God they are still just a noisy minority.

    • Paulb says:

      12:02am | 13/08/11

      Lets cut to the chase shall we Christian?  Your god doesn’t exist and never did.  It’s in the interest of many people and organizations to pretend he exists but he (always a he, I note) doesn’t exist no matter how much you wish he did.  Attacking Atheists takes you nowhere.  You can wish for your magical sky fairy all you want but he doesn’t exist, sort of like Santa.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:47am | 13/08/11

      Paulb says Lets cut to the chase shall we Christian? Your god doesn’t exist and never did…. So Paulb you have evidence to support your claim that The God who created you does not exist, please do not use Evolution or the Big bang there is no evidence to support them except that which also confirms Creation and the Scriptures refute their other claims…

      But yes I do understand your confusion Paulb even some Christians do not realise how much evidence there is in the Scriptures that confirm the reality of their Creator God, also there are those who don’t believe in Miracles and signs and wonders today, sad because my Life and many other peoples confirm they are very much a reality,  but then I also realise they are afraid they may be deceived by counterfeit signs and wonders and we do indeed need to be careful of these.

      But what does Counterfeit mean or something that is false, yes they do have the power to deceive but they are based on tricks or delusion and are mostly prompted by the fallen flesh nature of man. Real Miracles ect cannot be duplicated, they can be copied but these are only imitations and fall short of the credibility of the real Miracles etc and this is why we are to test the spirit by God’s word of those who promote them. The other problem that some Christians have is in not understanding what Jesus was saying when He said blessed are those who will believe without seeing,  He was referring to those generations that would not see Him in the flesh but would still believe in Him….

      The other Scripture that is often quoted to refute Miracles etc as a reality today is ... We live by faith not by sight or walk by faith without seeing,  but it is also taken out of context and once again is referring to Jesus not Miracles etc. You do indeed need Faith to believe in Miracles etc because like the Creation of the Universe and everything in it, their substance cannot be explained by man they are Supernatural and are manifested by the Power of God. Jesus said Himself if you don’t believe in me believe in the Miracles and the Scriptures confirm in Prophesy that they will be a reality in our day and age.

      Paulb as I said to others feel free to contact me personally and I will share with you documented and evidenced Miracles and signs and wonders that shows God is indeed a reality and unchangeable… Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow - my e-mail address is - anne.stocks@yahoo.com.au

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:50am | 14/08/11

      Grant says… The symptoms of ‘religious belief’; technically it is a psychiatric disorder….It seems Grant that you find Mental problems that people have to suffer in life something to be amused by or make light of, perhaps you don’t have close friends or family like I do and others who suffer from these symptoms, I assure you they and their families don’t find it in anyway amusing to be Mentally ill or have those they Love who are, but perhaps other people’s suffering does not concern you.

      Also your unkind judgement of others who you don’t know personally as being delusional etc shows your own limited understanding and Spiritual awareness of what life is all about for those who have faith like Christian Kerr and myself. It seems that you have not experienced any Supernatural workings of God in your life which is the same for most Atheists and this is shown by your preconceived ideas that you shared based on your own focus which is limited to the basics of life and this is only what you can accept and understand as true regardless of any evidence that may contradict your perception as being valid.

      On the other hand Grant perhaps you have met every Christian in the world and so can confidently assess they like other religious people are indeed suffering from Mental illness ...GET A LIFE… To use a Link which could also be based on others own secular reasoning going by their assumptions, although they may only be referring to those who are religious but their faith is in pagan gods and yes they can suffer deception the same as Atheists who seem to be very delusional when they believe they come from nothing. It also helps to remember that it has been proven today that many Psychiatric findings have been in error, such as wrongly diagnosing someone who has a hormone imbalance with having a Metal disorder like Bipolar or claiming a Psychotic episode is due to a Mental illness when it was prompted by a sleep disorder or panic attacks when they are because of low blood levels, and fear attacks being a Mental illness when they have been due to guilt and deep fear in someone’s life and so on….using a link like this one to put others down is not only unhelpful but very degrading both to those suffering Mental illness and to Christians who you liken their symptoms to.

      But to be honest it is your judgment Grant of those who have faith that I and others find quite disturbing and way out of touch to the reality of God’s Supernatural workings in this day and age or in any age.

      Regards - Anne.

    • Mitch Tolcon says:

      12:30pm | 15/08/11

      Christian, can you see what is wrong with religion? You have wrote one article and it has had over 300 comments of substantial argument. If everyone was to believe that there was no one god and live their life with common values we would not see religion based war and acts of terror. No matter how well you disguise it, you are just another religious activist that pushes their opinion onto others causing mass discomfort and rage.

    • Caroline says:

      10:19am | 16/08/11

      I love this article Christian and feel exactly the same about the church.  I’m not sure I’m the kind of Catholic George Pell likes…but I love God and the grace offered every Sunday..(whether I get there or not!)

      Now… if only we can get Miranda Devine to stop saying she’s Catholic….

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:25am | 17/08/11

      Caroline says… if only we can get Miranda Devine to stop saying she’s Catholic….

      I would be very thankful if Miranda Devine was a member of my Church, no I’m not Catholic but I am a Christian and although names do have meanings and for many… Christian means Christ in us, but God tells us it is not what we call ourselves that is the most important but where our heart focus is.

      We can be born in a garage but that does not make us a car, we can call ourselves a car but we are not a car, we can even read the authorised car manual right through from cover to cover, but that still does not make us a car.

      Miranda makes a strong stand for what she believes is right and when if it is in agreement with God’s Truth she is not in error.

      As I shared before we are to indeed be Loving and tolerant of everybody but that does not mean we have to accept and agree with what God tells us is wrong, we need to remember it’s not just about our agenda or what we want that is important and that matters in the grand scheme of things but what God upholds as right or wrong.

      Miranda Devine is seeking to stand up for His Truth in many ways and I and many other Christians applaud and commend her for it and so does God even if you and others don’t.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:36pm | 16/08/11

      Richard says…my definition of evil is the death of children in natural disasters, or at the hands of psychologically ill people….That is also my definition of evil Richard and is part of a fallen world but so is the evil that we all witness such as death, sickness, suffering, cruelty, murder, theft, lies, sexual perversion, physical violence etc and also the evil that is kept hidden such as little girls and boys being molested and as I was one of them surely I have every right to hate those who perpetrated this horrendous crime and abomination against me from the age of 3, not once but 5 times and by different men who were all Atheists and one of those cruel acts of perversion was by a Doctor who raped me.

      I have chosen with the Lord’s empowering to forgive these men because not to do so would be like mixing poison for them but drinking it myself. To hold onto bitterness and resentment eats you away like cancer. I have also now been healed by the Lord, yes I still have the scars but not the pain and anger that came with them…do I consider myself better then these men and more worthy of God’s Love and mercy, well it is something that I will share in response to your questions later.

      But in regards to answering all your questions Richard, I will do so one at a time so please ask again in order of importance but if you only like your reading to be instant like some coffee and find it hard to concentrate for more then a few minutes, then forget it because to answer them will require detail…your choice just let me know….

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      04:17pm | 16/08/11

      But would you be happy if it was your nasty little god doing the killing? Most people would regard the great flood and the deaths of most people in the world as evil, do you? Also, if the voice of your god told you to kill people, as it did when Moses was fighting the surrounding tribes (eg, Numbers 21.34), would you do it? Or would you act like a human being and disobey?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:46pm | 16/08/11

      Who are you talking to Mel? if it is me please use my name or name and quote,  as I said to Amy it’s rudness not to…each time I have answered you posts in the past,  I did not just say HEY YOU or nothing… I refered to you by name or what you quoted and your name,  please show me the same respect or I will not respond to your post or answer your questions, but just so you know God is Love and does no evil, even if you think He does,  what this shows is you are deceived.

      Kind regard Anne

    • mel says:

      08:47am | 17/08/11

      So, Anne Stocks, I thought that since my reply sat directly below your statement, it didn’t need that formal acknowledgement, but if you insist on such, almost Germanic, formality, I shall act accordingly. I also notice you didn’t answer the question.

      So, Anne Stocks, I ask again, if it was your evil god doing the killing, would you be happy with that? Did the population of the whole world, apart from, what is it, eight people, deserve to be killed?  And if the voice of your god told you to kill people, as it did with Moses, would you do it willingly, or would you act like a human being and disobey?

    • mel says:

      10:38am | 17/08/11

      Oh, Anne Stocks, who is Amy? I can’t find her post and your reply on this page.

    • xyz says:

      08:00pm | 16/08/11

      Christian Kerr… you have made a few glaring mistakes.

      “For two things are sure. The census will show that a clear majority of Australians believe in a god. And religion is a clear force for good in our society.”

      Where in the census was the question “Do you believe in a god or god(s)?”?
      It wasn’t there. How will the census results show that religion is a force for good?

      ... and your implication that those people who have no belief in a supernatural being or force are somehow not as good as you is simply ludicrous.

      Can’t non-believers have a voice at all? Should they remain silent, even in the face of constant criticism (the way it used to be in the past)?

      I’m happy that you have found your religion again, however I think you need to re-write this piece of born-again Christian proselytisng and senseless atheist bashing… it makes you sound insecure!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:57pm | 17/08/11

      Hi Mel, I’m sorry Amy is posting on another topic, and like with others I’m having a conversation with her but unfortunately I sometimes forget what topic they belong to, especially if there are a more then two, I did realise my mistake later, but thought I could explain if you got back to me. In regards to using my Name I’m happy for you to call me Anne as you have given me permission to call you Mel.

      I’m no doubt a lot older then you Mel although not sure, but if so I expect to be shown proper respect by you as a younger person at least in regards to being polite in using my name when asking me something, what you personally think about me is your choice. My wanting to be addressed by my name has nothing to do with the Indo-European family of languages but has a lot to do with respect and not just for those who have lived longer although that is important but for everyone. We are to treat others as we want them to treat us.

      Personally I don’t seek to put anyone down as a person of worth because I don’t think they are any less then I am, although I do seek to show someone if they are in error or warn them if they are in danger and at times I use humour but I acknowledge and respect others position if they are in Authority over me even if I don’t agree with their views but if their guidelines gel with my beliefs the same as set rules and regulations, I will submit to them and obey them, but if I feel people are being disrespectful or discriminateing against me or others by signaling us out as being in error yet they ignore others doing the same, I will make a strong stand against their discrimination regardless of the cost.

      Also in regard to respect, I do not hang up on people because I don’t want to interact with them,  this is extreme rudeness and is not acceptable and not just in regards to people who are their seniors but to all ages, it shows their immaturity and feelings that they have of their own importance,  not that it is wrong to have self worth but not at the expense of others or by being disrespectful.

      Mel as you know children are called by a Name when they are born they are not just pointed at and referred to as hey you or you come here. As for posts on Punch it may be hard to know who the post is in reference twhen others post later and so a comment gets lost and without a name as a referance it could be taken as referring to someone else’s post ... for all these reasons it is not only respectful but helpful to use a persons name.

      I will answer your question Mel about the flood on another post as this one is getting too long and I have been asked to try and condence them, but as detail may be needed it’s not always possiable.

      Be in touch soon - Kind Regards Anne

    • mel says:

      01:56pm | 17/08/11

      Anne Stocks, I would have thought that you should show similar levels of respect to everyone, regardless of age, and certainly not demand respect just because for some reason you believe you are older than someone else. I certainly wouldn’t. Anyway, what does the number of years that someone has lived got to do with being given respect?

      Why you believe it is the height of manners to use someone’s name in every post is your business, of course, but not everyone has the same rigid set of rules. As I said, my response was directly below your answer, so I thought I could dispense with the formality. I certainly wouldn’t have thought it was that difficult to work out where my query was directed. If it was in reference to a disconnected post, or some such, then of course I would have indicated the recipient.

      And I don’t mind “hey you”, or any such attention grabber. Whatever works. I’m not much for formality or people demanding respect because of their authority or age.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:12pm | 17/08/11

      Mel ( Hey you ) says ... I would have thought that you should show similar levels of respect to everyone, regardless of age…. What is becoming very frustrating with you Mel is that you don’t read what I have written but you go by your own agenda and you have done this more then once, do you have a problem with comprehension perhaps you like your reading to be like instant coffee with lots of sugar and not much body… what I said was is… “It has a lot to do with respect and not just for those who have lived longer although that is important but for everyone. We are to treat others as we want them to treat us”...so Mel if you are going to ask questions please read the answers

      Also Mel ( or Hey you ) my last post was not about Evolution but Love which I would have thought Atheists would have had some understanding about too. But just so you know Christians including myself do not present Secular worldly facts or understanding to support their Faith, so get use to it or don’t ask because it is not going to change.
      Whether you or anyone else rejects God and His Truth does not make Him or His guidelines null and void and you will be answerable for your rejection of both if you don’t come to heart repentance… deny this as much as you want but it is the Truth.

      As to whether you respect me,  in the long run although it saddens me to see your rebellious spirit it won’t make much difference except if you don’t use my name as I have asked and that is my choice not yours and it is not debatable but if you don’t as I said
      I won’t answer your posts but and this is what you need to take on board ...if you don’t respect God and His guidelines it will have long term results for bad unless you come to heart repentance.

      God asks us to have respect for all those in Authority such as our Husbands if we are married, the Prime Minister, Teachers, Police, Pope, our Pastors and Elders, and even David the Editor of Punch if we are in a position that it is needed and we are to obey them unless they ask us to do something that is against God’s Truth, He and His guidelines must always come first Jesus is our highest Authority on earth and we are answerable to Him in all things the same as The Father and as Christians we are to stand up for Him and His Truth and share them not just men but woman too in the roles and with the gifts He has given us and with His empowering.

      As for those who are our Seniors we are to respect them as having more life wisdom them us and listen to and obey their Godly advise when needed. God even tells us we are to stand up when they enter a room and I use to do this before my disability made it difficult…as you can see God has high regard for His elderly. He also tells us to teach Children and the youth His Truth and to respect them and not be hard on them but to Love and value them as a blessing from Him.

      Once again I will need to answer in regard to the Flood on the next post but I though you might like to see this video clip knowing how you like dogs, I think it is real cute - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcQai—9AHQ

      Be back after I have dinner - Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      01:07pm | 18/08/11

      Anne, you said in your post of 12:57pm | 17/08/1, “I’m no doubt a lot older then you Mel although not sure, but if so I expect to be shown proper respect by you as a younger person at least in regards to being polite in using my name when asking me something”. I replied at 01:56pm | 17/08/11 saying “I would have thought that you should show similar levels of respect to everyone, regardless of age, and certainly not demand respect just because for some reason you believe you are older than someone else”, so I believe I was quite on topic. Your post, however, did not refer to love as you claimed but respect. Nor did my reply refer to evolution. So I’m sure my reading comprehension is fine: is yours?

      Anne, do you think you may get a bit confused about which topic you are answering? Have a closer look at this website and you’ll see how the comments are arranged. If you want to reply to a specific comment, just hit the ‘reply’ button under the original post in the sequence. It works well.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:37pm | 17/08/11

      Hi Mel,  I will write again soon explaining about the flood but before I do I want to ask you something important but unless you want to by post an answer is not necessary.

      Is there someone you Love deeply in your life Mel or is there someone you think the world of and would give your all for, or has there ever been… well assuming that there is or was,  how would you feel if I called then disrespectful and unkind names and slandered them by accusing them of terrible things when you knew they were just lies or what if others propagated even more lies saying that they weren’t to be considered not only as unimportant but as a nothing and all the time you Love them deeply and know they are a real and intensely Loving, Caring, Kind and Compassionate and that they would never want to hurt anybody if there was another way ...

      Tell me Mel would you feel as hurt as I do to hear my God of Love who Loves me and others greatly including you put down in the way you and other Atheists do as well as other Christians when are also put down because of their faith and without any real evidence to support that God is as you claim not real or evil.

      But what does confuse me is you like the others say God does not exist but then you say like them, He is cruel and vindictive…Both can’t be True ??

      Be in touch soon I’m going to get some lunch - Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      03:34pm | 17/08/11

      Anne Stocks, I can’t see why you have any confusion. One argues with the evidence presented by the “other side”: for example, you argue against evolution even though you believe it isn’t real. It’s no point using biblical quotes as you do with people who do not believe the bible to be absolute truth because it doesn’t convince anyone. You have to use their evidence against them. I’m not sure if many christians have realised this.

      Now back to the questions: are you saying your god didn’t cause a great flood that killed off the whole population of the world apart from Noah’s family? Surely if that happened, anything that did that would be evil, whether you loved them or not. Are you saying that your god didn’t order Moses to kill those surrounding tribes (Numbers 21.34-35 as an example, if you have forgotten, but I’m sure there are plenty of others) because such a thing would be truly evil too, whether you loved a person or not.

      Are you saying that you love your version of god so much that if you are told to kill another person (as your god did to Moses or even to Abraham when he was told to kill Isaac), you would do it?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:47pm | 17/08/11

      Mel says ... I would have thought that you should show similar levels of respect to everyone, regardless of age…. What is becoming most frustrating Mel is you seem not to be reading what I have written but instead go by your own agenda and you have done this more then once, do you have a problem with comprehension perhaps you like your reading to be like instant coffee with lots of sugar and not much body… what I said was and you can check is… “It has a lot to do with respect and not just for those who have lived longer although that is important but for everyone. We are to treat others as we want them to treat us”...so Mel if you are going to ask questions please read the answers

      Also Mel ( or Hey you ) my last post was not about Evolution but Love which I would have thought Atheists would have had some understanding about too. But just so you also know Christians including myself do not present Secular worldly facts or understanding to support their Faith, so get use to it or don’t ask because it is not going to change it can’t be any other way God’s Truth is God’s Trut there is no substitute .
      Whether you or anyone else rejects God and His Truth does not make Him or His guidelines null and void and you will be answerable for your rejection of both if you don’t come to heart repentance… deny this as much as you want but it is the Truth.

      As to whether you respect me,  in the long run although it saddens me to see your rebellious spirit it won’t make much difference except if you don’t use my name as I have asked and that is my choice not yours and it is not debatable but if you don’t as I said I won’t answer your posts but and this is what you need to take on board ...if you don’t respect God and His guidelines it will have long term results for bad unless you come to heart repentance.

      God asks us to have respect for all those in Authority such as our Husbands if we are married, the Prime Minister, Teachers, Police, Pope, our Pastors and Elders, Parents and we are to obey them unless they ask us to do something that is against God’s Truth, He and His guidelines must always come first Jesus is our highest Authority on earth and we are answerable to Him in all things the same as The Father and as Christians we are to stand up for Him and His Truth and share them not just men but woman too in the roles and with the gifts He has given us and with His empowering.

      As for those who are our Seniors we are to respect them as having more life wisdom them us and listen to and obey their Godly advise when needed. God even tells us we are to stand up when they enter a room and I use to do this before my disability made it difficult…as you can see God has high regard for His elderly. He also tells us to teach Children and the youth His Truth and to respect them and not be hard on them but to Love and value them as a blessing from Him.

      Once again I will need to answer in regard to the Flood on the next post but I though you might like to see this video clip knowing how you like dogs, I think it is real cute - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcQai—9AHQ

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      08:41am | 18/08/11

      Anne Stocks, why is this respect for authority so important to you? Does the fact that such blind respect sometimes leads people to do terrible things worry you at all? Above any sense of human decency, it seems, is for you to obey your god. So I ask you once again, if your god tells you to kill people, as it did to Moses and Abraham, would you do it? All it needs is a simple yes or no answer.

    • Jim says:

      09:59pm | 17/08/11

      Incredible! What I can’t believe is that Christians and other religious types think Atheists have a god or gods and have a religion but just think they don’t.

      WHAT PART OF ATHEISM DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? It means absence of religion including a god that goes with that. How can you hate something you don’t believe? I’m having trouble getting my head around this. I don’t believe in your god and I don’t hate your god.

      I’m happy for anyone to believe what they like but please don’t push it on me. But this is a discussion on religion, so I feel obliged to have a say and choose to question your conviction. You can still believe what you like so don’t be offended. If you are, you shouldn’t be on this site.

      Secondly, how can your religion be the only one and all others are pagan? What makes Christianity so correct? How is Christianity not a man-made religion? Perhaps get out there and see a bit more of the world. You might become more WORLDY in the positive sense. If not, call it blind faith.

      Thirdly, you can’t prove either, but logically in this universe made of real stuff like things we can sense, to believe in God and spread the word, you must prove He exists before trying to disprove it. Belief in God via the bible alone does not cut it when looking for the TRUTH. 

      If God is the highest spirit living with us now, then why is it ok for many nuns to marry God and not priests? How does a spirit have a gender? Why is it that some of you religious people think you have all the answers?

      P.S…..What Mel said: It’s no point using biblical quotes as you do with people who do not believe the bible to be absolute truth because it doesn’t convince anyone.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:05pm | 17/08/11

      Hi Mel I posted the same post twice with a few changes sorry about that,  anyway to finish as promised why did God cause the flood even though He has great Love and Compassion…...

      First we need to realise that because He created us He can give or take life as He chooses the same as when our dog is suffering and we have to it put it down or they become very aggressive and attack humans, but there is a difference, it is not God’s will that anyone perish and He often intervens to insure the good that He has planded for us is fufilled, He is patient giving His Children time to come to heart repentance before He brings to a end all the evil in the world… before He says… ENOUGH! .

      Why did God flood the whole world … have you ever asked Him why Mel ? I’m sure you haven’t but if you did you would find out that it was because of His great Love and Compassion and not because He is evil or cruel.

      If you had a son or daughter and they were hurting themselves and others without remorse,  would you not grieve greatly ? and would you try to stop them from doing so, but what if they would not listen and sadly you knew they never would and just continue feeling no sorrow for the suffering they were causing others and that they would knowingly and willingly continue even hurting defenceless Babies and Children using them to meet perverted sexual needs and worse if it is possible burning them alive to appease their gods and those who were not used for this purpose would grow up and as Adults to do the same including using animals in improper ways. Some would enjoy the fun of seeing a person being torn apart by tying them to 4 horses and sending them in different directions… you don’t believe they would…History tells us they did and also all of the rest of the abominations which they had no intention of stopping… and God knew as He knows all things including their heart focus and He said ... ENOUGH!

      Histroy tells us that Pagan cultures did horrific and shameful things and as mankind continues down the same road they will became worse not better because even with all their worldly knowledge based on their own understanding and focus and motivated by their own lusts, without Salvation Mankind digresses they do not evolve into something better which is shown very clearly in History and through the fallen Creation, this is why God needs to put a stop to what Atheism produces long term, evil is shown by a lack of Love and evil seeks to destroy and devour causing much suffering and heartache. God is Love and can do no evil, what many may consider evil may in Truth be merciful and Loving and this is shown throughout the Scriptures, God sought to rescue and protect His Children and still does, the Pagans or Heathens that were killed were evil and if God’s people had intermarried and adopted their ways they would have been be polluted too. God said ... ENOUGH! 

      People are trying to blame God for the wrong choices they or others have made throughout History and are still making now, look around you Mel,  the evil you see comes from the evil in Mankind not God, you have a choice how you will spend eternity God has provided a way out for you Mel and all Mankind, because of His great Love, which means it’s not His will you suffer or that anyone else does.

      As it is clearly shown to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, God is indeed Love and can do no evil, it is a persons own choice if they continue to do evil by their rejection of His forgiveness and the freedom He offers them in Christ Jesus. Salvation is a free gift no one is good enough to earn it,  but it can only be received when we believe in the giver and seek Him with all our heart because it is in knowing God that our doubts and fears are taken away which brings us to True heart repentance which means we can be perfected in Love .

      Choose wisely Mel time is short as clearly seen in God’s Creation soon,  He will say ENOUGH!

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      09:16am | 18/08/11

      Anne, most if not all of those abominations you describe (child molestation, burning people alive, drawing and quartering, etc) have been and continue to be done by both christian and non-christian folk post “flood”. You then say “God sought to rescue and protect His Children and still does”, so why doesn’t god stop those abominations now too, if it loves us so much? Where’s the evidence of that protection? Why is it ok with your god to let all those bad things happen now but not back then? (No floods, of course, since it promised it wouldn’t.)

      Along with some terrible things indeed, non-christian cultures have also done some wonderful things too but obviously your god didn’t care about that either and so wiped away however many millions in his benevolent world wide flood. And why did the animals die too (apart from those in the ark)? What was their sin?

      You say that people try to blame their gods for their wrong choices they have made. Does that apply to Moses when he slaughtered those surrounding tribes? Or was that god’s love showing through again?

      You also say that to those who have eyes and ears know that god is “love and can do no evil”. Have you totalled up how many people your god has personally killed in the bible? The biggest mass murderer around, and you believe it can do no evil. I think rather the opposite of you: people have shut their eyes and blocked their ears to the evil that gods do. What sort of person are you when you can say that millions of people dead are acceptable because god does it? Where is your humanity?

      You say your god is love: all the evidence that I see and hear, either recorded in the bible or that I find around me, shows nothing of the sort.

      Of course, you’d have to believe the bible is true. Too bad, or rather we should say thank goodness (not god) that there’s no evidence for that worldwide flood.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      03:02pm | 18/08/11

      Mel it is pointless trying to help you understand if you do not read what I’m sharing and if you are but are not understanding perhaps it is because you don’t want to. I have answered all your questions clearly,  but because I care I will recap one more time…. and regardless of whether you want to accept what I share or not Mel it does not change God’s Truth… 

      The reason why God brought the flood and why He told Moses to wipe out the Pagan tribes was because Babies and Children and animals were suffering and Mankind were harshly abusing each other and they would have continued to do this and the suffering would have increased as Mankind’s corrupted flesh Nature deteriorated poluting their spirits and minds ...It was because of God’s great Love and Compassion that He stoped all the evil at that time…He grieved and anguished over the cruelty and the abominations that were being perpetrated on His little ones and on helpless animals and knowing when they were Adults that they also would repeat what their Parents did….This is why He said ENOUGH do you understand Mel what ENOUGH means! ....

      And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually (Genesis 6: 5 ) ......

      Mel if your dog that you love so much,  was continually being tortured and it was never going to stop what would you do to those who were doing it without having any regret or remorse or a willingness to stop?

      I’m sorry Mel but I will no longer continue to listen to you put God down, you are the one who is evil as all Mankind is when they don’t have a personal relationship with God their Creator which means they also do not have the empowering of the indwelling Holy Spirit. As for those who claim to be Born again of God’s seed and that they are believers in the One True God meaning the Godhead but have no heart repentance or sorrow for what they do wrong and continue to do it… as I said before…..

      We can be born in a garage but that does not make us a car, we can call ourselves a car but we are not a car, we can even read the authorised car manual right through from cover to cover, but that still does not make us a car… Calling yourself a Christian does not make you one unless your life shows the evidence that you are in words and deeds because of the Love we have for God and others.

      God tells us that as His redeemed Children we are to aim to be perfected in Love and that means when we are perfected it will show in our lives as these Scriptures tell us….

      Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that He appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is Born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the Children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not Love his brother ( Mankind ) (1John 3:4-10 K.J.V )

      Mel if there comes a time when you realise how deceived you have been and need help go to someone you Trust and respect who knows God personally, also my e-mail address is anne.stocks@yarhoo.com.au

      Christian Love Anne.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiGDo_FIjFg&feature=related

    • mel says:

      05:12pm | 18/08/11

      Yes Anne, Christian love indeed. I guess you will stop talking to me as you don’t like facing facts. You believe I am an evil one (like every other non believer) as I would be appalled at the death of almost everyone in the world in a great flood, while believers like you are quite willing to countenance all those deaths because your god said it was ok. You have to believe that every person back then (and when was that flood anyway?) was evil, without one good soul amongst those millions, so it would be quite ok for your god to kill them all off, even the babies, children and animals your god was meant to protect. Why didn’t your god just get rid of the evil people, or to continue your analogy about putting down suffering creatures, take all the innocent things? How does killing almost everyone in the world make any sense to you? Don’t you think a bit of counselling for the wicked ones might have worked? Wouldn’t your god have been able to manage that?

      So you, who believes yourself to be a child of god and loves mankind, justifies the killing of millions of people, children and animals. When did black become white and vice versa?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      04:30pm | 18/08/11

      Jim says… Atheism it means absence of religion including a god that goes with that ...So Jim what are you blindly believing in?  Evolution and the Big bang have no evidence to confirm they are True that which also confirms Creation and yes Creation as written in the Bible has been proven which means God is also a reality. So Jim do you believe you came from nothing which seems so because you claim God your Creator does not exist regardless of the evidence one being that you are alive.

      As you said about Christianity Jim, why do you try and push your Atheism onto me or other Christians…. I know the reason why I share God’s Truth… it is because I care enough to do so and I’m willingly obeying God who asks me to, it is not His will anyone perishes including you and I don’t want you to perish either and because I know what your eternal destiny is if you continue to reject The God who created you I’m also motivated strongly to share in the hope you will repent and be saved ...So Jim what is your reason for propagating Atheism ?...

      Let me reassure you Jim you like everyone else regardless of their title, Pagan or Heathen,  Atheists etc,  if you and they don’t have a personal relationship with God their Creator as revealed in the Bible the you and they are a worldly or naturel man or woman and this means they cannot understand the things of God as you can see in the Scriptures below and regardless of the fact that you and many others reject the Scriptures in the Bible as valid or twist them, they are God’s Truth….

      1 Corinthians 2:13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which The Holy Ghost Teacheth; comparing spiritual things with Spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of The Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned.

      Christianity is the only Religion that believes in The Godhead or as They are called to day The Trinity which means 3 in One… Cults do not believe in the Godhead or any other Religion and God tells us in the Bible that without this belief they are not worshiping the One True God, this is why Christians will not accept other Religions dogma… There r is no positive worldly it’s focus is not in the one True God which means it leads to hopelessness because it’s deception.

      Also as I shared with Mel and it would help you to read my posts to her, all Christians including myself do not present Secular worldly facts or understanding to support their Faith, so don’t ask us questions if you are not prepared to listen to God’s Truth through His inspired Scriptures in the Bible and it makes not difference if you or anyone else rejects God and His Truth it does not make Him or His guidelines null and void and you will be answerable for your rejection if you don’t come to heart repentance… deny this as much as you want but it is the Truth.

      When we are in Christ Jesus He is our Spiritual Husband meaning our Authority, Leader,  Proctor, Provider, Teacher, Comforter and He cherishes us and Sacrificially Loves us as His Body of which He is The Head and as His Church we are His Bride meaning we are Loving, Submissive, Obedient,  Devoted, Trusting, Committed, Loyal, Faithful, Righteous and this is in reference to both Males and Females. As for Nuns and Priests I’m not a Catholic but this should be the same for them, if not,  they are not in Christ Jesus.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      05:24pm | 18/08/11

      Anne, it is funny that you say that “all Christians including myself do not present Secular worldly facts or understanding to support their Faith”. That is the problem with your proselytising in forums like this, your comments bear no relation to facts and seems that they are just made up out of thin air. Non believers don’t believe the bible so it’s pointless quoting verse at us. You may as well be giving us bits of Dickens or Jane Austen for all the good it does.

      How about you convince us that what you say about your god is correct? In a previous post (at 04:40pm | 12/08/11), you said you had proof for your god that “can’t be refuted”. Care to present it to the forum?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:08pm | 18/08/11

      No Mel I’m not prepared to do that but if you really want to know the reality of God, you have my e-mail link, if you don’t want to use it that is your choice. Surprise!!  Surprise!!  once again you have failed to read the answers to the same questions on my post so you keep asking the same questions and since you are seeking to argue about what I claimed was a fact and that it would not change and that is Christians do not and will never use worldly reasoning, logic and understanding they only use God’s,  so unless you are prepared to listen there is no point in continuing to ask Christians questions and as it was only out of politeness that I responded to your post this time, because I do believe as you just keep talking around in circles it’s pointless for us to continue our conversation.

      Mel, before I say goodbye one last Truth ... face it you have no proof of what you claim and that is that you evolved from nothing,  I’m beginning to think you Atheists all went to the same School… it must have been the one I went to because I was deceived for almost 30 years… yep hard to grasp but just like you all I was thinking I came from nothing only I didn’t realize it at the time and the reality is you and all Atheists still don’t.

      Take Care Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      09:20am | 19/08/11

      Anne, you have mentioned your irrefutable proof in this public forum so I think it would be appropriate to present it here. You have mentioned this proof a few times and no-one has yet to see it.  Why don’t you want to show it in public? One can only guess that it isn’t that irrefutable, otherwise you wouldn’t be reluctant to show it.

      Now to your mistaken belief that I do not read your replies or “listen” to what you say. Indeed I do and I ask questions about what you say. Just because you think you are presenting ‘facts’, it doesn’t mean those facts are true, the matter settled or beyond question. I can understand that you may have trouble answering people’s requests for clarification as they obviously trouble your understanding of your god but you may be surprised to learn that not everyone believes what you write.

      You say “Christians do not and will never use worldly reasoning, logic and understanding, they only use God’s” and yet you refuse to present your irrefutable proof of god to us. Without that foundation, everything you say has no basis, either in worldly reasoning or god’s logic.

      You also keep banging on about the lack of proof for evolution as if that somehow proves your god. What that has to do with this current debate is quite unclear to me but let’s have a crack at your supposition. Our current understanding of the theory of evolution is the best explanation we have of the evidence we see about us. There may be a better explanation in the future, but at the moment Darwin’s theory works beautifully in explaining the changes we see in the fossil record over time. Now, even if the theory is wrong, do you have proof that your god caused those changes over time? How do you know it wasn’t some other god: Thor, Zeus, or Marduk? We shall all be interested to see your explanation and proof of evolution. Or do you believe that evolution does not happen at all?

      To bring this discussion full circle, who is the insecure one here, the atheist of the believer? As an atheist, I’m feeling pretty secure.

    • Jim says:

      06:23pm | 18/08/11

      Anne, do you know that humans are are a power hungry speicies? Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe the scriptures were written to control people? How do you know that a supernatural creator exists? Have you any proof that you have witnessed that miracles have occurred. How often do they occur? Using scripture is weak argument becuause I really don’t think too much of it. The Koran has scriputre and so do other religious documents.
      You have not answered Truth very well because how can you call words in the scripture as Truth? It’s an ancient text written by man over 2000 years ago in only a few parts of the world. What were all the other humans in the world doing/believing in that time? Were you there Anne Stocks? Why would you believe this 100% in today’s day and age where we understand so much more about the world? You are not thinking outside the square.

      My reason against religion is that it goes against man’s quest for technological progress by pretending to understand where we came and why we are here from rather than evaluating the world around us.
      I am natural as are you. I am worldly because I have travelled a lot. I ask questions and think about the answer I’m given. I don’t just believe something just because it’s in a ‘Holy’ book and some priest tells me to. I can provide many many examples of why the ‘holy’ book is full of it! 
      Go back to sleep Anne!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:35pm | 18/08/11

      Brendo says….So your argument is: God exists because most people think he does. ....Do we believe Brendo that Gravity exists ? well we think it does don’t we and we can see it’s effects but we can’t touch it, feel it, or look at it eye to eye, or can we smell it, or hold it, we don’t even know what colour it is, and we can’t hear it breathing but we still think and believe it is real because we can experience the reality of it in our lives…

      As Christians we also know Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour exists because we can see the reality of Him in our Lives when we walk in His empowering .... do you understand this Truth Brendo ... No you can’t, because as you can see in the Scriptures below you are a worldly or natural man because you reject God your Creator and so don’t have His Spirit…

      1 Corinthians 2:13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which The Holy Ghost Teacheth; comparing spiritual things with Spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of The Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned.

      As Christians we walk by Faith we don’t have to see Jesus to know He is real and He said we are blessed because we don’t see Him but we still believe in Him…

      Hope that helps clear up some of your confusion Brendo now you only have to resolve the enigma that since Evolution and the Big bang has no evidence to support them accept that what also confirms Creation and you do not believe God created you then you must have come from nothing ... do you really think this is True?.......

      iiiiiiiiii the’re my eyes rolling.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • xyz says:

      07:26pm | 18/08/11

      Mel and Jim (and Amy from the other forum)... let me tell you that Christian Kerr, Anne Stocks and others like them here and on older forums (e.g. Joan, True Believer) will never be swayed by any rational argument. They constantly attack non-believers and threaten us with eternal damnation for the minor infringement of simply not believing in Jesus.

      We don’t threaten them with anything. They get upset when we reply to their attacks on us (such as this article written by Mr Kerr). Are we supposed to remain silent? Are we not allowed to have a voice? They certainly don’t stay silent.

      But don’t blame them… they are simply exhibiting true-believer syndrome… look it up:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome

    • mel says:

      10:20am | 19/08/11

      Cheers xyz! I always have the feeling that for christians, the words ‘persecution’ and ‘attack’ are synonyms for questioning and criticism. We are big nasty atheists that use logic and rationality, after all!

    • xyz says:

      12:41pm | 19/08/11

      I couldn’t agree more Mel… Christian fundamentalists like Anne simply don’t want to hear anything contrary to their own beliefs.

      Thank goodness we live in a country that values freedom of speech!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:45pm | 18/08/11

      Sorry xyz if your feelings have been hurt but I find it very hard to believe, where have you been?  you can’t be for real, who is paying you?  anyway if you are genuine grab a cuppa and a bickie and go back and read some of the Topics and their posts or go forward , it won’t take you long to discover who the attacks, abuse and slander are really being directed at, as Christians posting on Punch we have had to put up with a lot from quiet a few Atheists not all some are respectful even though they are deceived which is not slander because it is the Truth,  they like you have no proof of what you claim such as God does not exist, or that you evolved but there is evidence both in the Scriptures and in Creation that God is a reality and I personally have offered my e-mail address to anyone who is really searching for the Truth and I would be willing to supply undeniable deliverance to support without a doubt God’s existence and I don’t lie, I have no need to or do I want to.

      But if you are really feeling upset xyz perhaps it is because you can’t handle God’s Truth, Logic and Reason which is what we share as Christians, it is not our own agenda which is what Atheists propagate as well as misusing Scripture in their posts. What’s really happening is God’s Truth is convicting you of you rebelliousness and that because of it unless you repent your eternal destination will be Hell, God is trying to warn you, He does not want you to perish because He Loves you and all Mankind Christians also don’t want you or anyone else to suffer that is why we are praying for you and the rest of the Atheists and not just on Punch but world wide, and because we care it is also why we share God’s Truth it is not to condemn you but with the Hope you will be saved.

      I’m sorry if this upsets you but your link is a joke and is not about Christianity it is in reference to the Occult big difference very big difference,  as Christians we reject what the Occult propagates in all it’s forms including New age and pagan religions etc, It would help you xyz to do some reached first or at least read what the link is all about before you post it, if you had done so you would have found that Psychic Mafia has nothing to do with Christianity which makes me think this post is also not for real, no one could really believe it did have.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • xyz says:

      12:37pm | 19/08/11

      Thanks for your reply Anne. I note that you are sounding increasingly angry with each post. We are participating in a forum which is debating about an article written by Christian Kerr complaining about his perception of some atheists/agnostics.

      It sounds like you want to shut down this debate for atheists/agnostics (and any other non-Christian for that matter) and only hear from like-minded Christians. Anne, that’s not how a debate works. One side puts their view across followed by the other side… all done in a polite manner. It’s OK for both sides to disagree… that’s the point of a debate.

      You, Anne, have crossed the line into rudeness and consequently you are adding nothing meaningful to this debate.

      PS.  Yes Anne, my link was meant to be a bit of light hearted fluff… we really shouldn’t be taking this topic so seriously now…. should we smile

    • mel says:

      01:47pm | 19/08/11

      Anne, here we go again. Your god has truth, logic and reason, except for the fact that it is not of this world, so we wouldn’t understand. Your god loves us, but if we don’t do what he says, we burn in hell. Is this the unconditional love that your god has for us? Sounds an awful lot like it has conditions.

      And now , according to you, we atheists misuse scripture? We quote directly, we get the context right, we try to debate the meaning of the verses, so how do we misuse it? Is it because we don’t have your subtle understanding of your god’s intentions (and if that’s the case, why do you bother quoting the bible at us)? Or is it that you can’t really answer the queries we pose and you get angry at being shown how nasty your god can be?

      And do you really find it that difficult to extrapolate from one situation to another? Wow! Xyz’s link had the quote from James Randi: “no amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary”. Have you noticed that the quote doesn’t refer to the occult? Do you think maybe the quote may have relevance to you?

      So come on, Anne, post your irrefutable truth for your god!

    • xyz says:

      06:59pm | 19/08/11

      Anne Stocks, you asked me “... who is paying you?”.

      I just realised how funny your question is… I work full-time and you are, by your own admission, not working as you are an invalid.

      So I ask you the question “Who is paying you?”... the answer would be ME.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:36pm | 20/08/11

      xyz says…So I ask you the question “Who is paying you?”... the answer would be ME. ....Then I want a RISE thank you!

      By the way I wasen’t always unable to work I have worked most of my life in one way or another and I’m still suplementing my disability pension by working a total of 2 days a week over the whole week and I have done a lot of volentry work and still do when I can.

      I also helped pay for the roads you drive on, Hospitals, Aged care, Disability support,  advances in Science that you benift from which you highlited and no doubt many other things you take for granted and I did this by paying taxes when I was working….Perhaps I should ask you to give me a refund!

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:23pm | 18/08/11

      Hi Brendo my iiiiiiiiii are still rolling,  but I was thinking.. yep Christians do a lot of that, they don’t just accept everything they hear, anyway I was thinking it must take a lot of faith to believe you come from nothing even though you have nothing to confirm it… Wow even my Faith in God as a reality has real substance and a firm foundation… anyway who am I to stop you thinking it is True,  if you really think it is… but I think that you should really rethink if what you are thinking is true…. what do you think???

      Thinking of you - Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:51am | 19/08/11

      Jim says… Anne, has it ever crossed your mind that maybe the scriptures were written to control people?... .....Sorry Jim this is worldly understanding and shows very clearly that you have no knowledge of the Bible or why it was written but I will share some Truths with you that perhaps may help, but from the other statements you have made or things that you have claimed, like there being evidence for Evolution and the Big bang apart from that which is also confirming Creation, it is very noticeable that you need to do some study. But I would be interested in seeing any evidence that you can provide that confirms what you think is True, but please cut and past details not biased links that propagate deception, how do I know they do because I was also an Atheist for nearly 30 years and was very much deceived by Evolution teaching and so have acquired much knowledge about it.

      It is also apparent that you are unaware the Scriptures prove that Creation is True and that God is a reality although having a personal and vital relationship with Him I have no doubts. I have also experienced Miracles and signs and wonders in my life and having witnessed them in other peoples lives and they are not counterfeit or false as they cannot be explained or copied by man, and are not deception or Tricks, they have also been Medically documented and witnessed by others.

      Reasons why the Scriptures were written…... 2 Timothy 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      09:36am | 19/08/11

      Anne, you can bang on all you like about truth, scripture, your god and all of that guff, but until you present your irrefutable proof for the existence of your god to us, everything you say means absolutely nothing. I’m sure you have convinced yourself that what you say is true, but the people posting here are a little more critical and will need something better than biblical quotes to convince us. Why, some of us may not be entirely convinced the bible is 100% accurate!

      Come on, Anne, post your irrefutable truth for your god! Tell us how the scriptures prove creation is true! Tell us the signs and wonders you have experienced! Describe your medical miracles! Give us the names of witnesses so we can check!

    • Jim says:

      11:20am | 19/08/11

      Sorry Anne, but they are not Truths as you need proof in order to have Truth. You do not have proof. The bibile is not Truth.
      Why was this truth evident 2000 years ago and not today?
      Why is your religion all about sin and salvation? A little boring to me.
      If you’re happy believing dogma rather than man’s own progress, you should really be living in the past and not enjoying the luxuries of todays technology. Why don’t you get off your computer and start writing to everyone. Go and light a fire so you can boil water for your cup of tea and stay warm. Next time you visit your doctor, ask what they prescribed 2000 years ago. You should accept that worldy ideas give you and me the luxuries we have today. THIS IS CALLED PROGRESS. Religious rubbish attempts to slow this down by trying to answer questions with the bible while science does it with proper methods of trial and facts.

      It’s very noticable you need to do some study that isn’t reading the bible.  Just because you were an Athiest for 30 years, this doesn’t mean anything. It’s obvious you didn’t have a good scientifc understanding. 
      Science is credible because look at what we’ve done with it. You can cure sicknesses, put a man on the moon, build tunnels, fly passengers though the air, understand DNA and know atoms exist. Why don’t you believe that science is on the right track?

      Come on, Anne, post your irrefutable truth for your god! Tell us how the scriptures prove creation is true!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:44pm | 19/08/11

      Jim, it seems your the pot calling the kettle black, with having claimed there is evidence confirming Evolution and the Big bang but not providing it, so to be honest I’m finding it very hard to take your prattling seriously not that I don’t think you have a right to prattle but I still find it hard to value your worldly understanding when you have no evidence to support it and believe me most would just laugh and ignore something that propagates that we come from nothing which is being presented by you with having no evidence to confirm differently, sorry but if you really think I can believe you just appeared from nothing you are very delusional.

      Still Truth is as Truth does and once again Jim you have shown your ignorance concerning the Bible in your understanding of when it was written as well as not knowing that it has powerful and conclusive evidence which confirms and proclaims God our Creator is indeed very real…

      So Jim I suggest instead of prattling you search for the Truth but of course it is your choice ...

      A few good links that may help although not conclusive but a great start are….

      http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/
      http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/aqoo/
      http://www.truth-that-matters.com/testimonies.htm

      Kind regards Anne

    • xyz says:

      02:04pm | 19/08/11

      Anne, why are you using the strawman argument that all atheists believe in the Big Bang? The Big Bang is a theory and as yet is unproven and everyone acknowledges that fact. We don’t know how we started and we don’t pretend we know (unlike you who believes that God created us out of nothing just because it says so in the Jewish Torah).

      Evolution is very different…. there is a lot of scientific evidence to support this theory and it is now universally accepted as fact.

      ... look them up in Wikipedia.

    • mel says:

      02:14pm | 19/08/11

      Goodness Anne! Those links are so much rubbish! You’ll have to do better if you want to convince anyone

      I went to the first site, answered a question and I was put out of the loop immediately. How does that show your god exists?

      I watched a few of the clips at he second link and am still waiting for any real proof that evolution is wrong, that creationism is right, and it was your god that did it (all the points raised have been answered many times over. Are you really convinced by that kind of thing?).

      The last website is full of bible quotes, which proves absolutely nothing. 

      To convince anyone, you’ll have to provide your irrefutable proof of the existence of god to us. Otherwise we will all go to hell!

    • mel says:

      04:31pm | 19/08/11

      Actually, Anne, I’ve been looking over a few old Punch articles, just to while away a Friday afternoon. and I saw the “The-best-arguments-for-God-are-purely-scientific/” item and I am beginning to notice a bit of a pattern.

      You provide those terrible links that couldn’t convince anyone out of a paper bag, let alone prove to someone that your god exists, all the time claiming to have absolute irrefutable proof of your god that you never share. Why do you keep the “best argument” to yourself?

      Most horrible of all, you persistently complain that no-one reads your posts, no-one listens to you or they twist your words. When people respond directly to your posts, however, you ignore them anyway. All that is called projection, where you attribute your faults onto other people.

      Really Anne, if you are using these pages to try to bring people to a belief in your god, you aren’t doing very well. You need to engage with what people say, you have to try to understand their thoughts and why they think they way they do. Your approach does you no favours to you nor anyone else. As a start, you could show us your irrefutable proof for the existence of your god.

    • Jim says:

      12:40am | 20/08/11

      Anne, if you think a supernatural power created the world in 7 days and the world is 6000 years old just because the bible says so, I think you’re the one who DELUSIONAL.

      Is Truth proof just because it’s in the bible?
      Please prove how god made the world in 7 days other than scripture. If you can’t tell me that then it’s obvious that you are the one who is delusional.

      If you make a claim that something exists but cannot prove it apart from a 2000 year old text, then you cannot go around asking people to disprove it because it’s a claim Christianity has made. You must prove it first and without a 2000 year old text. Does that make sense to you Anne Stocks. Probably not. You have shown your ignorance that science is on the right track to human understanding of why we are here if any reason and how we got here.

      Why is it that other religions are wrong and yours is correct. Please prove how other religions are incorrect.

      Why do religious fundamentalists have to put the fear of god into you if you don’t believe? I know….Control! It’s very powerful but it’s never going to convince me unless your god or Allah or any other god reappears and fixes all the mistakes in the world. This then would be proof that god/s exist.

      Religion is blind belief as it closes your mind from asking questions by providing a very convenient solution and being very manipulative to acheive the goal.

      If you say god exists, where did god come from? As you say, something cannot come from nothing!

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:07pm | 20/08/11

      Prove to me Jim you came from nothing or I won’t believe you.

      As for there being nothing in referance to God , there never was and there never will be, there was God and where God is there is not a vacuum, His Presence is a life force so great it is beyond our earthly understanding and it is eternal, no start no finish.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      10:07am | 22/08/11

      Once again, Anne, to a simple request that Jim has put to you, you mumble (in a literary sense, of course) about god always being there but it’s a collection of words that have no weight, little meaning and doesn’t answer Jim’s question. Where’s the proof for what you say? I could equally say that little pink unicorns actually created your god. It makes as much sense as what you have said, and until either of us provide proof, both of us are talking nonsense.

      Anne, you have submitted long posts about your god’s absolute truth, love, power, etc, full of irrelevant biblical quotes, hints at evidence for the creation of the universe and life itself, statements that you have experienced miracles, with medical proof to go with them and witnesses too, and so on. But never have you posted any evidence, any proof for any of the things you claim.

      In the end, it’s all about proof, Anne. Would you believe me if I said I had proof that your god never existed? You would, quite rightly, ask to see it, wouldn’t you and not just accept my word for it? The rest of us are the same. You claim proof and evidence for the existence of god so why do you think anyone would or even should believe you without you producing the evidence or proof?

    • Jim says:

      12:58am | 20/08/11

      Anne, please provide proof that Christianity and your god as the supernatural creator is more correct than other religious versions?
      If you can’t do this without scripture, I won’t believe you.

    • F says:

      11:53am | 20/08/11

      By the way, Christian Kerr. Here’s an article detailing Nick Caves’ real position on this topic. You seem to have thought that the typical “ass pull” journalism you so frequently utilise is a good way to prove a point - it’s not. Here’s a quote:

      “I’m not religious, and I’m not a Christian,” he says decisively, “but I do reserve the right to believe in the possibility of a god. It’s kind of defending the indefensible, though; I’m critical of what religions are becoming, the more destructive they’re becoming. But I think as an artist, particularly, it’s a necessary part of what I do, that there is some divine element going on within my songs.”

      http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/29/entertainment/la-et-nick-cave-20101129/2

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:53pm | 20/08/11

      Jim says…If you can’t do this without scripture, I won’t believe you. ...Whether you believe me or not is not the main concern, it is whether you believe God and His Truth,  if you choose to reject Him to death, He will reject you. God tells us we will be without excuse, we can see Him in Creation so He does not have to prove to you or anyone else that He is real (see below ) God and the Scriptures go together and both have evidence to confirm their Truth but without the Holy Spirit you will not understand the things of God including the Bible. ( see below ) and the only way to have the Holy Spirit is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour…your choice which means so will be your eternal destination.

      God tells us without belief in the Godhead or The Trinity as They are called today you are not worshiping Him The One True God…Christianity is the only religion that does believe in the reality of The Godhead and the only way you can believe in God as 3 beings in One,  which is…  God The Father.. God The Son and God The Holy Spirit is to have The Holy Spirit empowering you to do so….God tells us to search for Him with all our heart and we will find Him - so search for Him Jim.

      Romans 1:19-21 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

      1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • F says:

      02:47am | 21/08/11

      How can you be so certain of your “truth”, Anne?

      Wouldn’t it be hilarious if the Christian devil wrote a book and convinced people into believing it was the word of the Christian god? Wouldn’t that be hilarious?

      Know this - There are no absolutes, save for the absolute that there are no other absolutes.

      Your “truth” means nothing in this debate.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:30pm | 20/08/11

      xyz ? says…So I ask you the question “Who is paying you?”... the answer would be ME. ....Then I want a RISE thank you!

      By the way I wasen’t always unable to work I have worked most of my life in one way or another when I was able to and I’m still suplementing my disability pension by working a total of 2 days a week over the whole week and I have done a lot of volentry work and still do when I can.

      I also helped pay for the roads you drive on, Hospitals, Aged care, Disability support,  advances in Science that you benift from which you highlited before and no doubt many other things you take for granted and I did this by paying taxes when I was working….Perhaps I should ask you to give me a refund!

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Jim says:

      10:32pm | 20/08/11

      “God tells us we will be without excuse, we can see Him in Creation so He does not have to prove to you or anyone else that He is real”

      No Anne Stocks….............You need to prove that He is real because you and other religious people are making the claim that he is real. Does that make sense?

      “God tells us without belief in the Godhead or The Trinity as They are called today”

      Anne Stocks…........the bible tells you that not God. The bible is a 2000 year old text that I find lacking integrity and goodness. Very barbaric actually. See Alan Baxters quotes on the other thread. That will show you. 

      All these things you are quoting are in a book called the bible…......it’s not actually your god saying this because it was written by man. I find this following very foolish because man is very capable of deception and man wrote the bible. This is the whole crux of it. Man wrote the bible and man is very deceptive. Why wouldn’t man make things up? Power? Influence and recognition. Man is very deceptive Anne Stocks if he has a motive to do so. That is why I have extreme doubt to the bible. 

      “if you really think I can believe you just appeared from nothing you are very delusional.”

      Please tell me again how your god came to be here if he’s actually here? If something cannot come from nothing, then god must have come from something? How did your god make everything in 7 days? Come on Anne, if you don’t know the answers you must eat humble pie and say so. It will affect your argument for a god if you don’t know. If you can’t answer without the use of scriptures then i’m sorry but your argument doesn’t hold much weight as i’ve aluded to above.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:23am | 21/08/11

      Jim says……you need to prove that He is real ....I don’t need to you need to believe He is. Jim you like Mel and other Atheists are just rejecting what you don’t want to accept and as I said before you have very little knowledge of the Bible but if you did some study you would find that your understanding even of when it was written is very much in error. As for your comment about Allan you have not read my answer to him or you would know he had it wrong.

      Also it seems strange you expect me to prove God is real when His reality is everywhere but you still haven’t provided the evidence of where you came from and without God who is before all things, and by Him all things consist ( see below ) who you reject then you are saying you came from nothing?? as you said…then i’m sorry but your argument doesn’t hold much weight as i’ve alluded to above.

      Colossians 1:16-18 For by Him were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

      Perhaps you are like Mel and most other Atheists but I hope not all… Mel couldn’t understand why the first link I gave her did not continue but it was because she herself stopped it by clicking onto… She dos not care if Absolute Truth exists,  if she does not care then why should God care if she wants to reject Him when He created her and Loves her… God is Absolute Truth and He tells us if we search for Him with all our heart we will find Him..so do Atheists care? maybe some do but it seems many don’t but because they have no peace they want to argue…I hope I’m in error.

      Someone asked me recently why was I bothering to post on Punch or why Atheists were, I can’t answer for you or any other Atheist but I told him it was because I care and believe that God wants me to share His Truth and because I was once an Atheist and deceived and now know without God there is no Hope, but to be honest and yes I was very much deceived but I don’t think I really was an Atheist perhaps in my head but not in my Heart because I always cared if Absolute Truth existed and I went looking for it, and I found God and He is Absolute Truth and Love.

      Jeremiah 29:12-14 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:

      Kind regards Anne ...Hope to see you in Heaven.

    • mel says:

      08:20pm | 21/08/11

      Anne, Anne, Anne! Evidence, truth and logic and you just aren’t on good terms, are you? You said that the links you provided would be “a good start” to show we poor atheists proof of your god. I went to the first link, answered a question that I didn’t care about absolute truth and got kicked out immediately. And because of that, now you tell me that god doesn’t care about me. Your god of love, of truth, will now chuck me into hell. Do those terms (‘love’, ‘truth’, ‘absolute’ even) have any real meaning to you or just meanings you’ve made up?

      Anyway, how does that incredibly lame website prove your version of god exists? How does a website that plays silly semantic games prove anything, given you can replace the name of your paltry gods with the real gods of the universe (invisible pink unicorns), it seems to work much better. Do you think that website actually proves anything? Actually really proves anything?

      I also notice you’ve stopped replying to me. Your god couldn’t stand even my low level of intellectual rigour, I suppose. And I didn’t even have to use my iron chariot to defeat your god! Ha!

    • Jim says:

      09:31am | 21/08/11

      “....I don’t need to you need to believe He is”

      I’m not going to believe without some proof. You haven’t provided this proof yet. The bible is not proof. 

      “Also it seems strange you expect me to prove God is real when His reality is everywhere”
      The god that you think is real has not revelealed itself to anyone or it would be a well known established fact. Has it revealed itself to you in the material world? There is no proof - you just BELIEVE everything has been created by God and ‘His’ presence is everywhere. You have no proof that a supernatural creator made everything.
      You think a place in heaven is real just like your god. Your brain dies with your body. What is heaven like again Anne Stocks?

    • xyz says:

      02:15pm | 21/08/11

      Jim, this is the one question true-beilevers can’t answer other than by saying it’s written in the Bible.

      Anne, you know that non-believers need some concrete evidence to believe in a god. You say that you were once an atheist, so what concrete evidence did you see that made you become a believer?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:00pm | 21/08/11

      Jim says: You think a place in heaven is real just like your god. Your brain dies with your body….. So when did you die Jim and how good of you to come back and let us know there is nothing it must be reasuring for you to know 100% that there is no afterlife and Christians are wrong.
      And of course you have also studied God’s Truth in detail and know all about Heaven and Hell too and that’s why you debunk them…. so Jim if you haven’t read the Bible and you haven’t died ?? it must be just your own or someone else’s worldly understanding about God your Creator not existing or Heaven and Hell…
      Perhaps you would like to hear the Testimony and see the Video of a Christian man who did die and came back to encourage other Christians and it is recorded that he was clinically dead for 15minutes so it is not deception, he came back to life in a Hospital morgue, also others have been brought back from the dead both in Bible times and in our times ....I know as a realist you will find this hard to handel but get over it ...it’s real it did happen.
      Testimony ...
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2onp_kgMgI8
      Videos .... 
      http://video.google.com/videoplay decide=3682855866783766146
      http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/content.php?folder_id=14
      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      10:17am | 22/08/11

      Anne, your links show a chap who relates some of the standard near death experiences (NDEs) seen around the world. Did you know that they tend to be culturally specific? Mr McCormack supposedly witnessing heaven, hell and your god in his NDE , whereas Hindus also see visions of their gods, complete with blue faces as depicted in their art. Are those visions true too?

      You do need to provide better evidence. You say you have experienced miracles and have medical proof and witnesses. Please let us know the details. Anyhting would have to be better than the lame websites you are linking to at the moment.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      05:53am | 22/08/11

      xyz says… You say that you were once an atheist, so what concrete evidence did you see that made you become a believer?..... Before I respond to your question and seeing you assured Jim that knowing our eternal destiny is the one question true-beilevers can’t answer other than by saying it’s written in the Bible… so then how do you answer it xyz have you also died and come back like Jim ?

      I would say the start of my Journey with the Lord as an Adult was hearing the Truth ...believe me I didn’t want to be in a Church but had agreed to go with my Fiancé  ( long story )  but one of the things that did motivate me to go with him, was someone said to me if you are not narrow minded you will come and listen and then make up your mind one way or another and one thing I prided myself on was being willing to listen to both sides of any argument or debate etc but I was not prepared for the impact the Truth had on me and at first I was fighting it but after 6 weeks of arguing about it and giving my Fiancé a very hard time as well as a few others in the Church, I realised I was wrong but I don’t feel now that I was a real Atheist in my heart,  just in my head being very deceived and to believe in God would have been a denial of all that I had believed was true and had told others for years - who wants to have egg on your face but I realised in the long run there would be more egg if I rejected what was indeed the Truth and I’m not a fool if your wrong your wrong, you don’t pretend you aren’t, it leads nowhere and in time after some study I realised that what I had believed was the Truth for so many years which was Evolution had no evidence to support it, so what a fool I would have been a double yoke for sure and not at all a smart egg more like scrambled eggs or worse a hard boiled egg, no feelings, compassion or Love.

      The Truth that these Christians shared with me both in words and actions brought me to a very strong conviction that what I believed had no Truth but I understood very little at first and so my journey with Jesus started and progressed and as I searched for His Truth I found Him and His Love overwhelmed me and still does, and He teaches me what is Truth and what is deception so I am not lead astray by false teaching and regardless of the circumstances I face in Life I always have His Joy in my heart and His strength which keeps me focused on Him ( long story )

      I have also experienced Miracles in my life and signs and wonders and know others who have too, mine are Medically documented and the signs and wonders were witnessed by others, I didn’t seek for them they just happened although I did pray in regards to some health problems and others were praying for me too but I don’t think at the time that we expected a Miracle to happen and this was the same with the rest but they were not counterfeit or false and without healing some of my illnesses would have lead to death if God had not intervened ( long story)  He knows how much we can bear and what His good plans for us are, I do not believe that I am anymore special then others but that I needed God’s reassurance at the time.

      Of course this is very condensed, my full Testimony is rather long, I have shared some of it on other topics and it does indeed show the reality of a Supernatural God of Love working in my Life but others I know can share simular stories of God being a reality in their lives too.

      xyz If you want me to share further in regards to these Miracles and signs and wonders please feel free to e-mail me… anne.stocks@yahoo.com.au 

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      10:25am | 22/08/11

      And Anne, these miracles you speak of, how do you know they were done by your god, not invisible pink unicorns? Do the medical records attest to which divinity interceded on your behalf, or are you just guessing someone did?  Invisible pink unicorns (peace be upon them) are very shy (that’s why they are invisible) and they just may be letting some other made up deity take the credit.

      Until you show some proof, my story is just as valid as yours.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      05:43pm | 22/08/11

      F ...Know this… There are no absolutes, save for the absolute that there are no other absolutes.

      So right this minute if you are still alive F and I agree that is not a absolute but if you are alive it is absolutely certain beyond any doubt that your heart is beating and you are breathing even if a machine is doing it for you… Is that an absolute or not? and if you are alive you also have blood flowing in your veins whether you are on life support or not another absolute isn’t it?... So once again we can see another absolute and that is if you are alive or have been alive you came from something as nothing comes from nothing and that is an absolute and as there is no absolute evidence for Evolution and you reject God your Creator who you are answerable to regardless if you do not believe He is reality and that is an Absolute whether you believe it or not…  but going by your logic and reasoning you absolutely believe you came from nothing…... iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii my eyes are rolling again ...Your understanding is like a child F…you need to grow up and Mel too…when you do we will continue our conversation… I’m not into baby talk and as for Mel who doesn’t even care if there is absolutes or not, which means she doesn’t even care if I’m real or not,  so why should I bother ..  it’s absolutely pointless as she found out on the Link I gave her.

      Kind regards - Anne.

    • F says:

      08:25pm | 22/08/11

      Anne,

      You are completely ignorant when it comes to philosophical and metaphysical thinking. Perhaps you misunderstood me - There is no absolute knowledge.

      Am I alive? I assume so. Do I know absolutely? No. For all I know, this existence could be some cruel afterlife where I spend eternity debating with the dim-witted. Maybe I am dead? Who am I to say? Of course, I assume I am alive. Why? Because it’s the most logical stand point I can take at this time. You should understand, by believing in a god or gods, you are not taking a logical or rational stand point.

      I also find it ironic how you accuse me of believing in absolutes after I had already told you they don’t exist. Evolution is the most logical and rational theory we have for how life came to be what it is today - it does not explain the origin of life. Similarly, cosmology is an entirely different argument. You are confusing the two.

      I do not believe something came from nothing - neither does any scientist upholding the big bang or any other cosmological theory. We don’t have enough information to make such a conclusive statement.

      You see, it is you who believes that something came from nothing. It is your religion that enforces that statement, and it is because of your ignorance that you have misunderstood that.

      I am young, but I am no child. Try not to be so petty in your future replies.

    • mel says:

      09:06am | 23/08/11

      F, you have to understand that Anne and and the usual tools of argument (logic, evidence, proof and rational thought ) aren’t really on speaking terms with each other. I am still trying to see the connection between my lack of interest in absolutes (due to to the impossibility of proving them absolutely, unless we talking about maths) and her idea that I don’t care if she is real or not. As she believes she is older and wiser than many of us, she tries to insult people by calling them children or that they have childish beliefs. (One might be tempted to reply that there’s no fool like an old fool, but that would be churlish!) She also gets easily offended and goes off in a huff when she realises she’s losing an argument.

      Anne, supply some evidence or proof for any of your claims and we might be able to understand what you are trying to say. At the moment, all you are offering is a very garbled message

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:16am | 23/08/11

      F says: Anne, You are completely ignorant when it comes to philosophical and metaphysical thinking…..Anything F including philosophical and metaphysical thinking that denies and rejects the reality of God who Created the Universes is based on man’s worldly understanding and is gibberish.

      You forget F or perhaps no one has told you that there are many Scientists who believe in Creation as the Bible tells us and have proven it to be so and the Scriptures also confirm the reality of God and yet even though there is no evidence to support Evolution and the Big bang except that which also confirms Creation and believe me there never will be because Evolution etc is a Lie to deceive people and stop them from searching for the One True God, and this is the same as religions who worship a false god and Cults and anything else that takes peoples focus away from Him, yet you choose to live in hope that one day Secular Scientists will prove Evolution etc is True because they invented the ipod even though they can’t explain where the material for the components to make them originally came from ...grow up F your believing in fairytales and make-believe and your mind games are also a sad delusion as you confirmed by your rambling on in a desultory manner.

      God tells us those who reject Him will be without excuse and you and Mel as well as all those who reject God will be judged and punished for this unless they come to heart repentance but it will never be His will that you perish it will be your choice .. He is all around us in everything and He holds everything together… search for Him and you will find Him and then instead of talking baby talk you will talk with real understanding and then we can have a worthwhile conversation but if you don’t really care enough to search for Him like it seems Mel doesn’t, then really it is pointless don’t you think continuing our conversation. 

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      10:45am | 23/08/11

      Anne, you are ranting again. Could you please provide evidence for these things that you say. Can you show that “Evolution etc is a Lie to deceive people and stop them from searching” for your version of god. Can you show that Darwin thought up this “lie” for the purpose of deceiving people?

      You have continued your usual cycle of posting and degenerated into insulting people . I understand that people like you find it hard to cope when people question your statements but if you demand respect as you do, you have to be willing to give it. I’ve seen insistence on manners, but not respect.

      And finally, you once again go off in a huff because people won’t listen to you. Provide evidence for the things you say and maybe we will. Until you do, all you are doing is ranting.

      You just aren’t very good at this arguing caper, are you?

    • M. says:

      01:31pm | 23/08/11

      Well Anne, I spend 6 weeks away with no Punch to enjoy and here I find you continuing your christian rant to all who will listen…it really seems to me that you are so insecure and unsure about your beliefs you need to constantly reinforce them to everyone else interested in this debate as well as your self….I’ll take a leaf out of your book:

      Anne Stocks says: “Creation as the Bible tells us and have proven it to be so” - nope sorry…..how and when was this proven? Please do not quote the bible - this is not proof….(insert real, quantifiable evidence here)

      Anne Stocks says: “there is no evidence to support Evolution and the Big bang except that which also confirms Creation and believe me there never will be because Evolution etc is a Lie to deceive people and stop them from searching for the One True God” - again…wrong. There is mounting evidence to prove evolution and the beginning of the universe as ‘we know it’....the case for such events grows stronger each day with each new scientific discovery etc etc…...Unfortunately for religion (and Christianity as you are speaking of)...other than the bible you relentlessly quote from - there is no evidence at all….

      Anne Stocks says: “this is the same as religions who worship a false god and Cults and anything else that takes peoples focus away from Him” - Anne, this is YOUR perspective….I am 100% certain a different religious fanatic in another nation, be it Israel, Afghanistan, China whatever would assert the exact same thing….how does this not cause some doubt in your mind which religion (if any) is correct….Again, please do not quote the bible…answer based on your own thoughts!

      Finally, Anne Stocks says: “God tells us those who reject Him will be without excuse and you and Mel as well as all those who reject God will be judged and punished for this unless they come to heart repentance but it will never be His will that you perish it will be your choice”....blah blah, ambiguity at its religious finest! A typical round about, no wrong answer for criticisms and potential repercussions of not believing what the bible says…..You will be judged, the earth will end, you’ll go to Hell etc etc…please provide evidence of this ever happening to anyone (no Bible quotes thanks) maybe a trip advisor journal or some facebook pics thanks!.....last time I looked, a person died, was buried and hey presto, game over!!! Those who accept or reject your god wont be “judged or punished” they will be corpses…..just like everyone else

    • mel says:

      02:24pm | 23/08/11

      Hi M.! I’m afraid you won’t get an answer from Anne. She has been so disgusted with my wilful refusal to accept what she says, my blind inability to see the truth she offers (without deigning to offer a skerrick of support for any of her claims) that she no longer replies to any threads that I am involved in. She even called me evil (a badge I now wear with pride)!

      I hope I haven’t frightened her away from The Punch for good. I have too much fun replying to her posts.

    • M. says:

      02:56pm | 23/08/11

      mel…it does seem you (and Jim) have rubbed her the wrong way this time! Maybe my re-entry into the fray after an extended hiatus will reignite her interest!?....in all seriousness Anne - it would be welcome to hear your response as well as those others of your christian fraternity!

    • F says:

      04:45pm | 23/08/11

      Just what I wanted to hear, Anne.

      Typical, immature behaviour as expected from a fundamentalist. I hope many read your words - they are sure to avoid your delusion after reading what can only be described as the mad ramblings of a mentally unbalanced individual.

      Every word you type is another nail in the coffin of ignorance that is your religion.

      This debate is finished.

    • Jim says:

      11:41pm | 23/08/11

      “there are many Scientists who believe in Creation as the Bible tells us and have proven it to be so and the Scriptures also confirm the reality of God”

      You think that writings from man (scriptures) confirm the reality of God? Weren’t there heaps of scriptures written 2000 years ago, only some were religious? What makes you believe the religious ones tell the ‘Truth’ Anne?

      All elements apart from Hydrogen and helium come from nuclear fusion in stars. This has been proven Anne through science.

      “God your Creator who you are answerable to regardless if you do not believe He is reality and that is an Absolute whether you believe it or not…  but going by your logic and reasoning you absolutely believe you came from nothing…... iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii my eyes are rolling again”

      How has the bible proven Creation? It may tell you in it but how does it prove everything was created in 7 days? How is the bible proof Anne, it’s only a book with a 2000 year ago understanding of the world?

      If something can not come from nothing, how does your god exist?

      You have not answered this question yet.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:08am | 27/08/11

      Thomas Anderson says:10/08/11 Can I just say, to atheists and religious people alike: The more you argue your point and belittle the other side, the more concrete the other side’s belief…...It may seem safer to sit on the fence and allow the world to go by but if you don’t stand up for something you will fall for everything….
      Yes I agree with you Thomas arguing for arguing’s sake is pointless and to argue about things that are deception worthless and to put people down for the fun of it, as a power play or even for the apluse of others is mindless. I concider everyone people of worth and I care enough to warn them they are in danger and some times with strong words hoping to shake them out of there delusion or aperthy. Of course it is not as safe as sitting on the fence but if it was good enough for Jesus then it is good enough for me, His motivation was Love and so is mine, People need real Hope to hold onto in the Storms of life not the fairy stories they are believing in.
      God Loves them and offers them forgivness no matter how much evil they have done and He offers them real, Love, Joy Peace and rest but not just temporyaly but Eternally.
      God is Good ...God is Love
      Kind regards Anne

    • Anne Stocks says:

      02:43pm | 27/08/11

      A Spade’s a Spade says: So Anne, In order to believe you must believe. Have you yet earned you doctorate in apologetics…..Hi Spade, I don’t need man made approval or recognition by doing a doctorate to know that God is real or to share His Truth with others ....not that you are going to understand why,  but what about the evidence that you came from nothing even though some say elements caused the Big bang,  but of course they still don’t know where the elements came from?? and I was not aware you had died Spade is this why you can claim 100%  that what we have now is all there is and Christians are wrong,
      I think you are the one that needs to do some study ??? .....But how do I know without doubt that what I share is True because God tells me it is….

      James 1:5-6 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

      Of course Spade you have to believe it is True and to believe that,  you have to believe in God and I do and so this is why I don’t need others teaching me,  Jesus is my only Teacher…. believe it or not.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:35pm | 27/08/11

      Hi Jim,  you and a few others have refered to me as a Christian Fundamentalist in a negitive way but it seems you are all confused by worldly propaganda of what it is really means but I would like to explain and to confirm that as a committed Christian I’m proud to be one.

      A Christian Fundamentalist to me and other Christians means,  we are commited followers of Jesus Christ, we believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and we believe in its literal interpretation because we hold firm to the belief that it is all inspired by God as He tells us and is His Truth . We also believe in the experience of the “New Birth” or being Born again of God’s seed,  which occurs when faith is placed in Christ Jesus as Saviour and Lord through heart felt repentance and that we will be conformed into the image of God’s Son by Him through the empowering of The Holy Spirit as our evil flesh nature is put to death by us choosing to walk in Love and righteousness.

      To the world this may be viewed as radical, but is very basic to the Christian faith. We do not believe in violence against Abortion Clinics, Doctors the Government or anyone who does not agree with our beliefs, we seek to Love our enemies and do good to them not hurt them but we do stand up for God’s Truth regardless of the cost to us personally.
      Hope this will help dispel and false ideas that some people entertain in regard to calling a Christian a Fundamentalist that it will upset them, in Truth it upholds Christians as being Godly People of Worth.

      Kind regards Anne

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:04pm | 27/08/11

      Thank you Christian Kerr and your topic sadly did confirm the insecurities but more so the immaturity of some who posted, this is not a attack on them as people of worth but is the Truth in regard to their confusion to being one, which was shown by their need to abuse and slander others because they didn’t agree with them…yes it is their right not to agree but so do others also have the right not to agree with them, without having to put up with their rudeness but it was also shown even though they delight in dishing it out they can’t take it if others respond in simular manner….

      Yes indeed sadly they are very insecure and as Christians we need to pray for them remembering we were once just the same and as we still have weaknesses, faults and shortcomings,  well at least I do I haven’t been perfected yet even if I’m aiming for it, so if we are not careful we can fall into the same trap,  which yes I have been guilty of and I’m very sorry if I hurt anyone, as they say hurt people hurt people and themselves but I continue sharing because even though it hurts me deeply to hear my Best Friend belittled and called names and considered less then a dog,  we all still need Hope and God offers the only Hope that will be fulfilled eternally…

      Hope to meet up with you again Christian on another Topic.

      Christian Love Anne.

    • Jim says:

      01:50am | 29/08/11

      “Hi Jim,  you and a few others have refered to me as a Christian Fundamentalist in a negitive way but it seems you are all confused by worldly propaganda of what it is really means but I would like to explain and to confirm that as a committed Christian I’m proud to be one.”

      Anne, I have never called you a Fundamentalist (This example proves that you have to stop making things up.) but I am now calling you one as you have proved to be 100% committed to your belief and have been preaching to people about your god. You are fundamental in your belief because you believe nothing else (a closed mind).
      Anne, the insecurities exist in Christians just as much, if not more than secular people. YOU RETAIN A BELIEF IN A RELIGION among many religions just like Christian the author of this article. You people believe that yours is the only correct religion. Other religions think you’re wrong and Athieists think you’re wrong. I can understand why people like you would be insecure when you say your not. I call this denial.

      “To the world this may be viewed as radical, but is very basic to the Christian faith.”

      To the world, this is radical thinking, nothing different than religious tribes like the Taliban. To them, their god is as real as yours! Yet they express their love for their god by killing people who don’t believe in the same things. The thought process is the same as you except you may not killing. The process is the same though.

    • Gomez12 says:

      08:19am | 29/08/11

      Anne Stocks,

      Thankyou. Thankyou. Thankyou.

      People like you create more Athiests every day, your closed mind and irrationality only highlight the insanity of religion in the way that us faithless can only hope to achieve. I take my hat off to you madam, please continue to spout nonsensical drivel at every opportunity - If I could put you on television I would.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:07am | 29/08/11

      Gomez12 ...ditto

      And Your born an Atheist!

    • mel says:

      01:11pm | 29/08/11

      But Anne, every time you post one of your long pointless screeds, whenever you insist that you are right and have all the answers, whenever you reject other points of view, even though the evidence is there for all to see, because they go against the supposed word of your god, all those whose faith has started to waver will see what happens to the overly religious, and will turn away from your version of a god.

      You are the best advertisement for atheism!

    • C.M.G says:

      11:38am | 29/08/11

      Hey what is it with you duds don’t you know that stalking is against the law ... for sure Anne is over the top but your all way up there too, right now she is making a bit sense then the rest of you,  at least I know I’m real sitting on the fence and from my viewpoint I haven’t seen any proof from any of you either, so let’s see it, if you want me in your ball park .

      Or for sure grow up!

    • mel says:

      02:07pm | 29/08/11

      C.M.G., proof of what? Are you asking us to show that a god, invisible pink unicorns, magical sky fairies, insert favorite deity here, did not create the world? What proof do yu think will convince you that a supernatural creature did not do something.

      And can you outline which bits of Anne’s writings make sense to you? It will be useful to see what you find convincing in her arguments.

    • C.M.G says:

      02:51pm | 29/08/11

      Mel what is it with you and your invisible pink unicorns and magical sky fairies,  are you for real or just dumb. Come on your claiming Anne aren’t got a clue well smarty boots were is your evidence, am I suppose to believe you popped out of the sky like your fairies. Anne sounds like a bit of a know it all but she don’t dish out Trash like all the rest of you do,  yep real cool putting people down but I haven’t see much from you yet, give me some proof or go play in the sky.. gotcha! let me know were that came from too! and be quick this fence aren’t too comfy.

    • mel says:

      04:16pm | 29/08/11

      G.M.C., I have no wish to proselytise as Anne does, nor see you necessarily in my “ball park”. It’s up to you to ask the questions you have to ask.

      Atheists are atheists because they do not believe in the existence of gods. No-one, especially Anne, has offered any good reason or proof for the existence of a god, let alone her christian god. There is no overwhelming (indeed even underwhelming) proof for that god, or Thor, or Zeus, Marduk, invisible pink unicorns, Santa Claus, and so on. For the difficulty in proving non-existence, see for example:

      http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html

      Now, as an agnostic, you may want to hedge your bets and try to act as if there may be a god, but which one do you choose? Why would you think one is more sensible than another? Why prefer a chriastian god to invisible pink unicorns, or Quetzalcoatl, the Rainbow Serpent, and so on for another three thousand deities that have been proposed?

      As I asked before, what bits of Anne’s writings make sense to you?

    • C.M.G says:

      06:38pm | 29/08/11

      Yer Mel come off the grass or mud,  don’t bother talking down to me, your big words fit your big month and forget the links I’m not into them,  to much reading,  you just be a nice bossy boots and spell it out for me, were did you come from and the sky too, I asked the questions but you aven’t answered them yet, best button your lip till you do. My Mum said people who try to mess up others are the pips and need to be burped.

      Yep Annes god sounds like my Mums and he was real to her too, so what have you got smarty pants a big NOTHING wrong or right! and your ball park got a lot of mud in it and I’m not into throwing mud like you, so might just go look some more on the other side of the fence.

      Post when you got your proof Mel,  I aven’t got time to play happy slappy I work.

    • mel says:

      07:19pm | 29/08/11

      Where did I come from? Ultimately, like you, from first single celled ‘creatures’ about 3-4 billion years ago. You have to imagine slow changes over the generations, forms diversifying over time, each genus and species settling in their own environmental niche.

      When you say sky, I am guessing you mean the atmosphere. I’m no environmental scientist, so I can’t really help there. You really should try google: it’s very helpful to find out stufflike that if you are interested. (And we both work, so your petty insults don’t really work in this instance.)

      You have at least understood the point that there is a big nothing when it comes to god: that’s more or less what the word ‘atheist’ means. Bravo. And be assured that I’m not talking down to you. This is how I always write and speak.

      C.M.G, so when you said you were ‘sitting on the fence’, it wasn’t quite accurate, was it? If you believe something because your mum did, that ‘s fine, but you shouldn’t make out you are earnestly trying to find answers. It just makes you look like a liar.

      And as I asked before, what bits of Anne’s writings make sense to you?

    • mel says:

      07:30pm | 29/08/11

      C.M.G says “I’m not into throwing mud like you” and proceeds to say in the space of a few posts: “duds”, “are you for real or just dumb”, “smarty boots”, “your big words fit your big mouth”, “best button your lip till you do”, “My Mum said people who try to mess up others are the pips and need to be burped”, and “smarty pants”.

      If that is not throwing mud, it will be interesting to see what it will be like when you do.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:16am | 30/08/11

      Mel it seems you can dish it out but you can’t take it yourself, if you want to be treated nice you have to treat others nice. I have had enough of you stalking me on other topics, continual abuse on the posts, questing mine and other peoples integrity, being called names and being put down ... you are doing what bullies do in the school play ground not adults.

      Mel you may think you know it all,  but there just words, a lot of talk, no proof, anyone can make up a story some people even make up Charters or use different names. Show me what you evolved from and how you evolved into a person you are today no biased links just cut and past.  To be honest I don’t think it would matter what I shared with you by way of confirmation you would just reject it perhaps you don’t really want to believe in God your Creator and just want to argue with who ever is available, if I said white was white you would call it black, which you have done before.

      As far as the Bible is concerned have you read it ? if not you can’t argue it is not True and if you can’t argue that the Bible is not True you can’t claim God is not real ...yes you can say it, but you have no foundation to claim it.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      10:22am | 30/08/11

      Anne, I was wondering if you were actually C.M.G. I guess I was right.

      You say that I can dish it out but can’t take it. That’s not quite right either, is it, Anne? Isn’t it you who abuse people (remember how you have called other posters childish and called me evil once (or is it not abuse when you do it?). Did you even notice how I answered C.M.G’s posts, even though they were laden with abuse? Evidence, where’s your evidence that I can “dish it out but can’t take it”?

      This is a public forum. If you post here, expect people to reply to your posts, especially if they think you are wrong, illogical and even possibly making stuff up. If you feel that people aren’t listening to you, maybe you need to either provide evidence so that people will listen or no longer post.

      So why do you run away when people ask you to provide evidence? You talk about your ‘absolute proof’ for your god an awful lot but you never show it to anyone. You do not respond to people’s questions. And you then have the audacity to grumble about other people’s integrity when your own is fairly shabby!

      I have read bits of the bible (and by no means all as it would be far too tedious and I have better evil things to do). One does not have to know a topic intimately, however, to argue about its broad themes, otherwise no-one would say anything! You yourself have argued against evolution: have you studied the theory intimately, completed any field work, read all the recent published material? Or do you argue from having a little knowledge and not a full understanding? (Actually, you hardly argue; you repeatedly ask one question, which has been explained to you many times and you ignore the answer. Why won’t you accept the theory of evolution?)

      Anne, it’s all about the evidence. Without evidence, you are not providing facts but simply your opinion. Your white isn’t necessarily everyone else’s white and just because you say it’s white doesn’t make it so. That’s where evidence, logic and rational thinking come in. I don’t think you have ever really understood that.

      So, once again I ask, where’s your “absolute” proof that your specific god exists? Which means you’ll need to disprove those invisible pink unicorns (which put your god to shame), Marduk, the Rainbow Serpent and all the other gods too.

      It’s all about the evidence.

    • Jim says:

      10:52pm | 29/08/11

      Religion is just a convenient ‘answer’ to where we came from. We really don’t know just yet.

      C.M.G is just a wind up. Hope you fall off that fence and have ‘god’ catch you on the way down. Let me know if ‘he’ does ok.

      It’s each religion’s responsibility to prove their god exists as it’s their claim not ours. If god exists in your head and in a book 2000 years ago, it’s not really proof is it? You must prove ‘god’ first rather than have us disprove ‘him’ ok. I’ll say it again….......you guys are making the claim for supernatural creator, not us. Believe what you like just don’t preach about it.

    • Jim says:

      11:41pm | 29/08/11

      “Gomez12 ...ditto

      And Your born an Atheist!”

      Might want to think about this one Anne? What you just said is false.

      Do you think newborn babies know anything about religion? You are saying Atheist babies exists. Do you think a baby even know what a god is? A baby does not have a religion.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:55am | 30/08/11

      Jim says… Do you think newborn babies know anything about religion?... No I don’t think it I know it because God tells us that until Children are of an age of understanding about good and evil they are under His grace and go to Heaven, which means so do adults and children who are mentally challenged because they also can’t understand about Salvation in Jesus Christ. God is Love and even His Justice is merciful and fair. But God does know everyone’s eternal destination, we don’t so we cannot judge this so we are to share God’s Truth with everyone and we will do so if we really care.

      Jim your like Mel,  lots of words but no proof and it seems like her you just want to argue so why would people believe you when the evidence of God is everywhere and you have none to support your claims and by the way who made up the rule Christians have to prove God is real first,  I can’t find that anywhere.

      Like I said to Mel show me what you evolved from and how you evolved into a person you are today no biased links just cut and past…Oh I forgot you said you can’t, they don’t know yet,  which means right now you believe you came from no where and nothing.  I also feel like Mel that it wouldn’t matter what I shared with you by way of confirmation you would just reject it perhaps you don’t really want to believe in God your Creator like her and just want to argue with who ever is available,  like if I said white was white you would call it black, which like Mel you have done before.

      As far as the Bible is concerned have you read it, I don’t see any evidence of this,  you don’t even know how old the Scriptures really are, so the same as Mel,  you can’t argue it is not True and if you can’t argue that the Bible is not True you can’t claim God is not real ...yes you can say it, but you have no foundation to claim it.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      10:42am | 30/08/11

      Anne, I refer you to the posts you had with people like Jake and David Stasey in this article:

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/religion-is-helping-the-spread-of-aids/asc/

      The science was explained to you there but as you said yourself:  “You say I should be interested in what the Scientists say Jake but your not interested in what God says, so why should I take to heart what
      man thinks when it is in contradiction to what God tells me.”

      So it seems you won’t accept anyone else’s evidence/theory anyway unless it agrees with what your god tells you. So why do you keep asking for people to explain things to you? Why are you being disingenuous?

      And where’s your ‘absolute proof’ for the existence of god?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:47am | 30/08/11

      Jim says… Do you think newborn babies know anything about religion?... Sorry Jim what I meant to say before was No I don’t think it I know that new Born babies and young Children do not understand about God as Adults do and we know this because God tells us that until Children are of an age of understanding about good and evil they are under His grace and go to Heaven, which means so do adults and children who are mentally challenged because they also can’t understand about Salvation in Jesus Christ. God is Love and even His Justice is merciful and fair. But God does know everyone’s Eternal Destination, we don’t this means we are not to judge where they will spend Eternity, but we are to share God’s Truth with everyone and we will do so if we really care… but if they don’t listen we move on.

      Jim your like Mel,  lots of words but no proof and it seems like her you just want to argue so why would people believe you when the evidence of God is everywhere and you have none to support your claims and by the way who made up the rule Christians have to prove God is real first,  I can’t find that anywhere.

      Like I said to Mel show me what you evolved from and how you evolved into a person you are today no biased links just cut and past…Oh I forgot you said you can’t, they don’t know yet,  which means right now you believe you came from no where and nothing.  I also feel like Mel that it wouldn’t matter what I shared with you by way of confirmation you would just reject it perhaps you don’t really want to believe in God your Creator like her and just want to argue with who ever is available,  like if I said white was white you would call it black, which like Mel you have done before.

      As far as the Bible is concerned have you read it, I don’t see any evidence of this,  you don’t even know how old the Scriptures really are, so the same as Mel,  you can’t argue it is not True and if you can’t argue that the Bible is not True you can’t claim God is not real ...yes you can say it, but you have no foundation to claim it.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:07pm | 30/08/11

      Jim says… Do you think newborn babies know anything about religion?... Sorry Jim what I meant to say before was No I don’t think it I know new Born babies and young Children do not understand about God as Adults do and we know this because God tells us that until Children are of an age of understanding about good and evil they are under His grace and go to Heaven, which means so do adults and children who are mentally challenged because they also can’t understand about Salvation in Jesus Christ. God is Love and even His Justice is merciful and fair.

      But God does know everyone’s Eternal Destination, we don’t this means we are not to judge where they will spend Eternity, but we are to share God’s Truth with everyone and we will do so if we really care… but if they don’t listen we move on.
      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      01:19pm | 30/08/11

      So Anne, do you have any evidence to show what the bible says is true? Or is it just a hope that you have with nothing to back it up?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:32pm | 30/08/11

      Mel says… remember how you have called me evil…I said you do evil ....God tells us we all do until we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour as you can see below,  if you choose to do evil that is your choice…

      John 3:18-20 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

      As for the rest of your wordage and claims you still have not shown any evidence to support how you evolved, so I will say this one more time I will not go there… you just want to argue for the sake of it and I don’t, so I’m moving on there are other Topics that hold greater interest for me then listening to your wordage, I only responded at all because of a friend.  I think others call what you do Trolling but to me like it or not it is childish and very borning and please don’t stalk me again and just so you know what you do and say to others who post I really do not care,  but if needed I will warn others they are in danger if they listen to your lies or anyone else who rejects the Godhead.

      Our Conversation has now ended Mel and that is my Choice, Punch does not force people to post, if it’s what you think your job is then find someone else to argue with and tell this to all your other names as well.

      Goodbye Anne

    • mel says:

      02:36pm | 30/08/11

      Anne, you could be shown all the evidence in the world and you still wouldn’t believe something if you think it went against the word of your god (as you have said yourself). Do I have all the answers to evolution? Absolutely not. But you haven’t explained why me showing you the proof, or not, of evolution is important to you. If you are trying to say that my incomplete knowledge of evolution somehow proves god (which is an illogical thing to say anyway), how do you know it isn’t any one of the other thousands of deities rather than yours? And of course, running away like you do all the time means you don’t have to provide any evidence for what you say.

      Evidence, Anne, I know I keep going on about it but you do realise it helps when it comes to arguments. Here’s an example of the use of evidence. You wrote above: “I said you do evil ....”. At 03:02pm on 18/08/11, you wrote: “I’m sorry Mel but I will no longer continue to listen to you put God down, you are the one who is evil as all Mankind is ...”.

      That sure sounds like you are calling me evil. Did you forget writing that? And can you now see how useful evidence is to prove someone wrong?

      And why do you believe I post under other names? I’m quite happy with my own pen-name. Are you a little paranoid?

      Like you, I too will post on topics that interest me. As is my right.

    • Jim says:

      05:39pm | 30/08/11

      Ok then Anne, what about that baby who grows in a decent family with no religion. Or, that baby who grows up with another religion.
      Are you telling me that those people are going to hell for not finding Christ?

      So you admit to being wrong about the ‘born an Atheist’.

      Ok, we don’t know where we came from yet but we’re working on it.
      You claim the evidence for your god is everywhere. This is not evidence unless you provide answers to HOW your god created everything. Do you believe everything you hear and read Anne?

      Christian’s claim that god made everything and this is your evidence. This is not evidence. The evidence is HOW your god made everything. You and every other Christian does not know if it’s true. Then you claim your god exists and preach to everyone about it. If you preach about it, you must provide evidence HOW your god made everything otherwise stop arguing and accept we don’t know yet (if ever). The bible also is not evidence because we know that nothing comes from nothing don’t we Anne. Man must have written it. 

      Athiest say they don’t believe you because they ask questions and if something doesn’t make sense, they don’t believe it anyway. Scientists do this. They ask questions and things either make sense or they don’t.
      ‘The proof is in the pudding’ that this method of thinking is correct. Take a look at technology today. This is the result of science. If you don’t agree then tell me why. 

      Do tell how your god made everything and how your god came to be. Nothing cannot come from nothing you know.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:51am | 01/09/11

      Hi again Jim, I have already answered all of your questions and more then once in other posts, I suggest if you are really interested read them and discover the Truth,  but please not for the same reason as Mel as shown in her posts, but I do forgive her.
      Just as a point of interest Jim and as we know we can all learn from each other… having some knowledge of writing signatures means I’m aware we all have our own way of expressing ourselves when we talk but also when we write,  of course a lot has been proven to be inaccurate such as knowing a persons mental thoughts, fears, emotions etc although some of these are apparent but it is by the words not the Lettering.  I do find it amusing that people think your shouting because you use Upper case, I know it’s just Computer terminology invented by man,  but some really believe it even though most people are not really angry their just highlighting or like I have done many times left the Cap lock on and instead of rewriting it all again have just left it as it was. I FIND IT ALSO EASER TO READ… Opps I left the caps lock on again. But what you can observe from peoples writing is things like repeated words, or their expression with words such as their use of adjectives or nouns and how they space their words and sentences, such as…........ their punctuation, or grammar, and their focus which is normally on what they consider important and there are other things that can show the identity of the person writing.

      I know without a doubt that people use different names to get their point across in the Media I post on quiet a few websites but it doesn’t worry me I will respond to others if I feel a need to regardless of what name they use but I can pick up from their writing similarities.

      I have a Pen name I use it for writing stories Truth and fiction and also poems but I don’t do this professionally it’s just for pleasure and encouragement,  and my pen name is also what close friends and my Mum have called me for many years. I have also been in the Theatre and can role play very well,  at one time when I was young I had to make a choice to either take up full time acting or to continue to care for Children in an Orphanage, I chose the Children,  but I still role play at times, in my writing and with Humour, so it doesn’t worry me when others want to do the same as long as they are not using it to harm others which happens. But after not having a name of my own as a child,  I do appreciate that I have one now and mostly use it.

      Well Jim I hope you find the answers your looking for but also believe them and Mel too, I will be praying for you both to come to realise just how much God Loves you.

      Take Care and very Kind regards to both of you -  Anne.

    • mel says:

      09:37am | 01/09/11

      Anne, what are you talking about in this post? You say to Jim that you have answered his questions, but most people would in fact say that you haven’t. The issue is of course the evidence. You have said many things and it makes a fine fairy tale but where is the proof?  Until you provide that, then all you have written is just make believe.

      This bit is important. You have the belief that the ‘big bang theory’ and ‘evolution’ is wrong and somehow that shows that god created the universe. You do realise that one does not follow on from the other as there are many other options. If science is wrong about the origins of the universe and the development of life on earth (and you certainly haven’t shown that it is), it doesn’t prove that your version is right. Your bible says god created the world and life. OK, show that the bible version is true.

      You have not provided proof that a god exists, let alone your version of a god exists. Biblical verse means nothing as you haven’t shown that it is the absolute word of your god. So where’s your evidence for that? You have mentioned many times that you have irrefutable proof for the existence of your god, but you refuse to post it. Why? You say you have evidence and witnesses for your miracles. Where’s the proof of that? Why don’t you post that?

      Evidence, Anne, evidence. You really don’t understand the concept, do you?

    • Jim says:

      09:03am | 01/09/11

      No sorry Anne, you haven’t answered any questions HOW your god created everything anywhere in your posts. These are the answers I need to believe in your god. I don’t accept just being told ‘he’ did it because a book tells us. This is my dilema. It doesn’t make sense otherwise.
      Caps just highlight the important bits.
      Are you religious people taught not to question anything??

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:05pm | 01/09/11

      Sorry Jim, I should have shared further that I have written nearly 550 posts give or take few over the time I have been with Punch and they are posted on many different Topics and it was these I was referring to. So if you are really interested as you claim in knowing if God is real and why the Bible is so important then grub a cuppa and a bickie and read them all and you will find the proof you are looking for but it is your choice if you do.

      Jim says .....Caps just highlight the important bits….. pleased you agree with me Jim.

      Jim says….. Are you religious people taught not to question anything?? ......Yes and No we are not to question God as to His guidelines or His Holiness and Goodness and we have no need to question His Love but sadly many do directly and indirectly, more so because of confusion and deception.

      But we are to test the spirit of those who seek to Teach us or anything that is offered as knowledge or wisdom such as Science in all areas for explanation or for understanding, including Medicine, Physical and Mental Technology, life Skills etc whether it is presented as Christian or Secular and if it is against God’s Truth like Evolution is we are to reject it even if it has some truth as Evolution does, which is in a few things also confirmed by Creation but we are to reject it as the answer for the Universe including us coming into existence because for one thing it teaches against the 6 days of creation…..on the 7th God rested.

      I’m going out soon but when I get home I will share again why it would have been impossible as far as God’s revealed Truth in the Scriptures for it to have taken Millions or even Billons of years for the earth to evolve as sadly even some Christians believe but not as many as some claim. As for the rest you will need to read all my posts,  your choice of course.

      Be in touch soon Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      02:16pm | 01/09/11

      Jim said: ” I don’t accept just being told ‘he’ did it because a book tells us. This is my dilema. It doesn’t make sense otherwise.”

      Anne said: “I will share again why it would have been impossible as far as God’s revealed Truth in the Scriptures for it to have taken Millions or even Billons of years for the earth to evolve”.

      Now, Anne, I’m just checking but you do know that you can’t use the bible to prove what the bible says, don’t you? It’s called a circular argument. You may believe the bible to be absolute truth but Jim has already stated that he doesn’t, so you need to provide evidence not for what the bible says, but that what the bible says is true, and you saying that it’s true doesn’t make it so.

      I’m saying this to you as you have also been told many times on many different topics about circular arguments and that you can’t use the bible to prove the bible, but you don’t seem to have grasped this ‘Truth’ (if I may use your random capitalisation thing).

    • Anne Stocks says:

      05:41pm | 01/09/11

      Sorry Jim,  just a quick note something very disturbing has happened to a close friend of mine,  I have been upset all afternoon and trying to help her but not sure where to turn now as no one who could help wants to know or seems to care.

      I will be in contact as soon as things settle down,  once again I’m sorry but I do keep my promises if at all possible so will share what I promised hopefully tomorrow right now I have lost it.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • B of Kedron says:

      09:46pm | 02/09/11

      I recommend everyone takes a look at this story. Then ask yourself if God exists why did he call so many abusers to folllow him.

      ABC Ballarat
      The suicide legacy of sexual abuse
      Published: Friday, July 29, 2011 7:30 AEST
      Expires: Thursday, October 27, 2011 7:30 AEST

      Calls for an inquiry into up to 30 suicides by people who were sexually assaulted at Catholic schools.

    • Jim says:

      10:33pm | 02/09/11

      I’m very sorry about your friend! I hope you are ok.

      One thing I don’t understand Anne is why would your god make everything in 6 days and what was ‘he’ doing before that time. Also why would ‘he’ need to rest. ‘He’ is a spirit right? I did’nt think spirits got tired.
      The second thing is HOW did ‘he’ made everthing in 6 days? These are the answers to prove ‘he’ exists. I want to believe Anne but it doesn’t make sense to me.
      I am not confused about evolution but I am about religion because with religion, I am not allowed to ask questions even if it doesn’t make sense because it may threaten the existance of that religion. I feel deceived by religion because those people tell me I have to believe the bible even if it doesn’t make sense.
      With science, man can ask questions and are allowed to think freely. As I have said, this is the reason we have all those luxury items like aeroplanes, mobile phones, medicine and everthing else we use. These things are real. It’s fact because they exist.
      I LIKE ASKING QUESTIONS and thinking.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:18pm | 03/09/11

      Thank you Jim for your kind words of compassion, it has been a hard few days with not much resolved but just wanted to let you know I will get back to you.  I’m sorry I just haven’t been able to put together the data to respond to your questions being tied up with other posting and trying to help my friend.

      I should have explained about God resting on the 7th day, this word in the Hebrew means to cease in other words Creation was completed or we would say God had freedom from activity, this is like our rest in Jesus Christ when no longer work in the flesh trying to keep the Law,  we have His empowering to do so… Hope that helps.

      Be in touch soon, I hope at least by tomorrow afternoon when I have had a chance to rest.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      02:59pm | 04/09/11

      Hi Jim, thank you so much for your patience, as I was thinking how to cover everything that is needed for you to have a really good picture of what the Scriptuers are saying in regard to the reality of God and His Creation of the Universse, giving clear proof of His Supernatial all knowing farseeing Being,  two things came to mind, one I’m still learning myself so it takes time to research although I do have a good understading of what is important and know without doubt the Scriptures are indeed an incrediable testermony of our great and Awesome God and second to cover everything in the Bible would mean that our Dear Boss would be a very old man and as for the rest of the staff on Punch they no doubt would be well and trully fed up with my never ending wisdom and perhaps even offer an insintive for me to find another willing ear,  such as 150 links where I can continue to post. Also 550 posts over approx 4 mths on all differant Topics to work through with most sharing my ups and downs, is a bit much to ask of you or anyone.

      Keeping this all in mind I felt it may be more benifical if you ask the questions and I answer them but just 1 or 2 at a time would be very much appreciated. But for now I would like to share one Truth with you in regard to the earth God tells us in the Book of Job which was written when they all believed the world was flat and held up by Atlas a Giant that the world is round and also in the Book of Isaiah both written thousands of years before Jesus Christ came to earth which even Secular History confirms that He did and they say that God in Power ...

      * He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; He suspends the earth over nothing.Job 26:77* 

      *You not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning?  Have you not understood since the earth was founded? He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,  and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. Isaiah 40: 21 - 22* 

      Amazing Jim that a man wrote in the Bible thousands of years ago something only God could have known because they didn’t even have boats like Captain Cook did to seek to circumnavigate the world let alone Space Exploration but then there are other Scriptures that tell us things that only God could have known too but we will look at these another time or Punch staff will start looking for those Links.

      Kind Regards Anne

    • mel says:

      07:46am | 05/09/11

      So, Anne, all you’ve done is regurgitate the bible with no proof that the bible is true (so you believe the earth is a circle, hmm. I thought it was an oblated sphere, and also you believe that space is a tent like thing, not multi-dimensional. You also have to learn to separate Greek mythology from science) and no proof that your god was the one that created the universe and no proof for the existence of any god, let alone yours.

      So we are still waiting for you to show proof for the existence of your god!

      You have repeatedly stated (as this is about the third or fourth time I’ve read this) that you have posted over 500 times on different topics? And the point of that statement is? And do you believe “Punch staff will start looking for those Links”? Really?

    • Jim says:

      09:28pm | 05/09/11

      I’m so sorry Anne but I’m not buying into this ‘circle of the Earth’ idea. You will see why if you take a look at the link I’ve provided. It’s open to interpretation and is very unlikely that the ‘circle of the Earth’ quote means that only your god knew the Earth was round.

      http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/books/genesis/genesis1_circleearth.htm

      If your god knew that it was an oblate sphere and it goes around the sun once every 365 days, why wasn’t this in the bible? Why circle of the Earth when they could have been clearer. I know why, because the men writing it didn’t know it was round. The bible does’nt say it was round, does it?
      This exactly backs up my previous posts that man had limited knowledge of the Earth compared with our knowledge today. Astronomers today know so much more than humans 2000 years ago. Where in the bible does it show that black holes exist, how stars are formed and ‘die’ and the interrelationship between space and time. I bet people used to think heaven was up above the earth, which we now know as space. If this is case, we can travel to heaven in space ships.

      It’s very important that you realise as Mel has stated that you can’t prove that the bible tells the ‘truth’ by using quotes from the bible. You need to prove it some other way.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:14pm | 06/09/11

      Hi Jim, not sure why you posted this link but yes I agree…..Hebrew word gh means “circle,” and it seems very remote that it means “sphere” because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for “sphere,” rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated “ball.”

      Will get back to you in regard to your other questions but I do feel you missed the whole point of why I shared about the world being recorded over 4 thousand years ago as being round….. please think very carefully about this because both you and Mel missed it…..No one at that time could have known the world was round except God,  my previous post explains why it would have been impossible for man at that time to have known or even to have believed that the world was round and regardless of how many people try to reason away these verses the Truth is they say the world was round.

      Kind regards - Anne.

    • mel says:

      03:04pm | 06/09/11

      Umm, Anne, you may want to have a look at Sumerian and Babylonian cosmology. Regarding the earth as a circle is a pretty old concept in Mespotamia. For example, see:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astronomy

      Do you think Hebrew cosmology might be based on Mespotamian science? They used a lot of other material.

      You seem to have, however, missed an even more salient point. Sumerian, Babylonian and ancient supposedly god-given Hebrew cosmology is still wrong. The truth is that the world is not round or a disc, but an oblate sphere. Surely any self respecting god would know that.

      Science 1, god-inspired bible 0.

    • Jim says:

      04:06pm | 06/09/11

      Hi Anne, I posted this link to show you that your circle of the earth statement does show that the bible says the Earth is a sphere. I thought you were trying to show me that the bible says the Earth was a sphere and that only your god knew and that man did not. Was my understanding correct?

      “but I do feel you missed the whole point of why I shared about the world being recorded over 4 thousand years ago as being round”—-WHY? IT DOESN’T SAY THE EARTH IS A SPHERE DOES IT? I’m interested. Aren’t you are trying to prove that there are things in the bible that only your god knows and that man couldn’t have known at the time. Please show me things in the bible that man didn’t know back then that we know now. I might then start to be intrigued. 
      The believe ancinet Greeks were the first to believed the Earth was a sphere about 4000 years ago.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:55pm | 06/09/11

      Jim you are still not understanding the Hebrew word gh means “CIRCLE,” and it seems very remote that it means “sphere” because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for “sphere,” rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated “BALL.”

      Kind regards Jim

    • mel says:

      09:21am | 07/09/11

      Anne, your postings just aren’t making sense now. Jim certainly understands that your quote from the bible describes the earth as a circle (especially as he was the one that provided the link where you got the information).

      Now, do you understand that a circle is not a sphere, a circle being two dimensional and a sphere being three dimensional?  Your quote from the bible describes the earth as a circle and so your bible is wrong. The authors probably based their cosmology on ancient Mespotamian ideas but they didn’t know that those wacky middle easterners got it wrong. The bible should have used the word for ball or sphere, or if it was supposedly reporting what your god sees, a phrase to describe a flattened sphere.

      Anne, I think you have just shown that the bible is actually not the inerrant word of your god. Well done!

    • Jim says:

      11:16pm | 06/09/11

      Anne, please explain to me very simply how the bible has shown that the Earth is an oblate spheroid or at least a round ball like body in space. Back when the bible was written, man thought the Earth was flat and the bible indicates this as well many times. Many quotes from the bible show the Earth to be flat. You understand the bible to be your god’s literal word don’t you?
      The one below is just one of many!

      ‘That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?’ Job 38:13

      Sorry again Anne, I don’t think you are doing a good job at proving how only your god knew things we know now.
      Please try again.
      Kind Regards, Jim

    • Anne Stocks says:

      12:54pm | 07/09/11

      Jim quotes from the Bible….That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?’ Job 38:13….. As you can see with the Scripture below Jim that your Scripture is not referring to the earth being flat or there would be a contradiction in this Scripture where on one hand God is saying the earth is a Circle but then saying it is flat..your Scripture is also referring to a Tent but what does this mean,  what is a Tent ...it is a covering and protection which is what God has provided for those who believe in Him but those who don’t will be lost and loose His protection and blessings but it is not His will that anyone perishes He Loves us all greatly and will forgive us regardless of the evil we have done if we repent and stop doing evil and instead
      seek Him with all our heart.

      *Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning?  Have you not understood since the earth was founded? He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,  and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the Heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. Isaiah 40: 21 - 22* 

      This Scripture is also talking about a Tent but is referring to what those who are evil do to cover up their sins and hide behind their evil deeds….... Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness. For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.Psalm 84:9-11

      God sends His blessings on the good and the bad. The earth like the Heavens are all His Creation….the 3rd Heaven where He resides is not a place, or even a Country regardless of it’s size it is a Dimension that is never ending and was never ending like God it has always existed ....I would be happy to help you Jim with the other Scriptures you have found that you think refers to the earth being flat.

      Jim,  I want to share something with you but I’m not sure how you will accept it,  it’s about C.M.G,  it was me, I think it just started off as a bit of a joke, a way to have a go back, I like role playing and at first I enjoyed it but then I realised I was deceiving you and the rest and that I was being disrespectful.  I’m sorry Jim and also for the others I hurt, Mel and J but it was not really my intention to hurt, I just got carried away. I also wanted to use C.M.G to share about God’s Love through someone who wasn’t going to abuse me or make fun of me and would also stand up for me, I was feeling very outnumbered.

      Also C.M.G reflected my disability that I suffered with for many years especially as a child and still do to some degree, not the same but simular.  But it was still wrong and I know without a doubt, you can see I have not been perfected yet even if I’m aiming for it, I promise you that I will not role play again and will show you the respect that you deserve,  we all deserve. 

      Kind regards Anne.

    • mel says:

      03:33pm | 07/09/11

      Anne, you said ” As you can see with the Scripture below Jim that your Scripture is not referring to the earth being flat or there would be a contradiction in this Scripture where on one hand God is saying the earth is a Circle but then saying it is flat.”

      As I said above, a circle is flat; it’s 2 dimensional. A sphere is 3 dimensional. So the bible is wrong to use the word ‘circle’ to describe the earth, because it is a sphere (well, an oblate sphere). A circle is not a sphere.

      The other contradiction, of course, is how a circle can have corners!

      Maybe it’s time to realise that the bible can be wrong, or contradictory, or occassionally uses poetic language to get a point across. It is not inerrant.

      I suspected early on that C.M.G was you (see my post of 10:22am, 30/08/11). I don’t know about Jim, but C.M.G certainly did not cause me any hurt or pain. It was just amusing to see the contradictions in the posts.

    • mel says:

      04:40pm | 07/09/11

      And another thing Anne, you still haven’t shown Jim any proof for your god. Quoting bits of the bible just won’t do as proof, especially when you have shown us all that the bible is far from inerrant.

    • Peter Anderson says:

      08:46pm | 08/09/11

      Any generation which lacks the intellect to interpret writings, music and art from a time when their ancestors fully understood that they lacked knowledge and craved more is in danger of losing its own ability to comprehend even the meaning of words.  If you refuse to consider seriously the roots of your peoples’ quest for knowledge and particularly how generations past endeavoured to communicate their speculative conclusions, then your minds close to the organic nature of civilisation. You become like dead trees in a growing forest of understanding. Don’t believe in things you don’t understand - find out how much you can know, and what a ‘true possibility’ means, and then try to express it.

    • Jim says:

      09:56pm | 08/09/11

      I said, “C.M.G is just a wind up. Hope you fall off that fence and have ‘god’ catch you on the way down. Let me know if ‘he’ does ok.”

      You didn’t fool me Anne.

      A circle is not a sphere Anne. It’s obvious the bible has many errors and contradictions.

      It didn’t even say the Earth was a ball like thing! So can you see that I can’t take that as evidence that only God could have known.

    • Anne Stock says:

      03:50am | 09/09/11

      Jim, I don’t how to make this any clearer for you, do you ?

      Sphere which in the Hebrew language is rwd and is translated BALL in English but when I mention something in the Bible I’m talking about the Hebrew language which it was written in ....

      I will repeat it again Jim…. the Hebrew word for “sphere,” ...rwd…. is translated “BALL.”

      The earth is not flat it is round like a ball and as a final point NO there is absolutely no errors or contradictions in the Bible, only with man’s understanding of it! God does not make mistakes…..man does!

      I’m pleased you recognised C.M.G was me and Mel claims she did too, so that’s 3 which means I no longer need to be concerned it was just a bit of fun…Punch is known for that. (-:

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      05:29am | 09/09/11

      Peter Anderson says…. Don’t believe in things you don’t understand - find out how much you can know, and what a ‘true possibility’ means, and then try to express it…..Peter these are very wise words, thank you,  it was because I did not understand who our Creator was or what He was really like that I was able to be deceived but He revealed Himself to me and of course others through the Bible and in my heart…you said Peter which are also very wise words…. find out how much you can know, and what a ‘true possibility’ means, and then try to express it….When we seek the Truth with all our heart then we will find it and because we are truly passionate about The Truth and filled with it then we can’t help but to express it over and over again and in my heart God is Awesome and He is Love and He can do no evil and He is my everything….He Loved me when I was not Loveable and He called me beautiful and He called me His own. I am so proud and grateful to be called a Child of the most High God and I want to tell the world that He Loves them too.

      Psalm 9:9-11 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. And they that know thy Name will put their Trust in Thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek Thee. Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people His doings.

      Psalm 40:16-17 Let all those that seek Thee rejoice and be glad in Thee: let such as Love thy Salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.

      Thank you Peter and may you be greatly blessed.

      Kind regards… Anne, Ann , Annie, Anna, Channah, Hanna, Hannah = Grace .

      What’s in a name….. Jesus Christ Name above all names = God with us.

    • Jim says:

      09:01am | 09/09/11

      Anne,

      The bible never implied the earth was a sphere. All the research I have done on it shows that the they did’nt use the word rwd in Isaiah 40:22. They used word they used translated to mean ‘circle’. See below:

      “The Hebrew word that is used in Isaiah 44:22 (???, chug) does not at all imply a spherical earth. The root word only occurs in the Hebrew Bible once as a verb (Job 26:10). In nominal forms, the same root occurs four times, three as the noun ??? (chug; Job 22:14, Prov 8:27, Isa 40:22), and once as the noun ??????? (mechugah; Isa 44:13), referring to a “circle instrument,” a device used to make a circle, what we call a compass.”

      “Most modern translators agree that this “scribing a circle” in relation to the world refers to the horizon of the earth.”

      Therefore, what are you saying Anne? The bible clearly shows that they didn’t think the earth was a sphere. Unless I misinterpreted you in the beginning, I thought your argument was to show me that it is amazing the bible tells us that the Earth is a round sphere or “ball” (Only your god knew) when man back then thought it was flat.
      Am I missing something?

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:04am | 09/09/11

      Jim you are still not understanding the Hebrew word gh means “CIRCLE,” and it seems very remote that it means “sphere” because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for “sphere,” rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated “BALL.”I did not say it was in Isaiah 40:22 as you claim -  Please read my posts.

      I have to go out Jim but will be back after 1pm ... see you then
      Kind regards Anne.

    • Peter Anderson says:

      10:52am | 09/09/11

      When did human knowledge become perfect?  When we found out that the earth was an irregular shape, with cracks and bumps on it, which shifts under our feet and spurts lava and carbon dioxide into the air?  When did we discover that we knew everything about ourselves and the world we’re living in? By all reports we haven’t, but long ago philosophers worked out the limits of human knowledge, and religious people speculated about what is unknown.  Every generation of a growing civilisation has to learn to express these parts of the human imagination, or it will contract.
      It is often said that when we realise the limits of our knowledge we come to the beginning of true knowledge.  This applies to religious imagination as much as it does to the rest of our aspirational life.  Religious scriptures repeatedly point out the fact that human beings don’t know everything - but they do offer more than that.  That’s why they begin with invitations to pathways to truth, enlightenment, and knowledge. 

      Science uses exactly the same method.  The student of science and the scientist set out to learn, not to affirm what they already know.  When did human knowledge become perfect?  It hasn’t, and exploring religious texts, learning how to understand them and the ancient ways of expressing what they knew (including language), can be part of discovering what a literate civilisation is.  Often, it’s what you pick up along the way which is most valuable.
      We don’t even live on a perfect sphere, from what I’ve heard, although it’s hard to find a picture which shows what our planet’s real shape is.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      02:35pm | 09/09/11

      Peter says….it’s hard to find a picture which shows what our planet’s real shape is…... Well Peter I found one for you check link below and there are many more. I was just reading Andrew’s Topic today and he said something that was very wise .... There’s a small kernel of Truth at the core of just about everything….and that is the same as error or deception,  it is everywhere and sometimes there is a mixture the only exception it the Inspired word of God it is
      100 % Truth. I always try when possible to focus on the positive and commend this in others or what they share, of course on Punch, I don’t know them personaly although I know some who work for Punch a little better and they are indeed unique and gifted,  but sometimes Peter honesty when there is error is also important and so I will offer both when needed whether you accept it is your Choice.

      As the link showes Peter you are in error to say they don’t know if the World is round or a ball and if you want to call it by it’s Hebrew definition translated into English is rwd and in overall shape a Circle even if showing ridges,  how do I know this for sure because God tells us in the Scriptures and since He created the Universe and everything in it including you and me He should know.

      You mentioned Science Peter,  yes there is Truth in Science and proven error, this is why I do not doubt what God tells me, I agree 100% with Him no matter what any man / woman regardless of Titles, Credentials, Position etc propergates that refutes His words which are 100% Truth. Besides the link,  the Scripture below shows your imaging’s are wrong in regard to man can’t know the things of God or all Truth.

      So Peter imagine all you want but I have Truth and facts and what I and other Christians know as God’s Truth does not come from our imaginations like yours does or anyone else when they propergate anything that is not confirmed by God’s Truth….Am I Narrow minded ....No God minded.

      1 Corinthians 2: 12 - 13 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we Speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with Spiritual.

      Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

      Link - http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/html/object_page/a17_h_148_22727.html

      Kind regards Anne

    • Jim says:

      09:53pm | 09/09/11

      Anne,

      I know what you are saying but you make no sense. I have just explained how you have argumented that your god knows things man did not know at the time and you said it (the bible, inspired by your god) the earth, was a circle. The tranlation gh being like a compass (like the curve of the hemisphere). If you are using this ‘circle’ stuff in your argument, then it is very very weak. No where does it say rwd when talking about the earth shape. Please show me otherwise.

      Peter/Anne -  “although it’s hard to find a picture which shows what our planet’s real shape is. “
      What century are you guys living in? Do you think all the photos and evidence of the Earth from space including astronaut observations is false, a big conspiracy to somehow, for whatever reason show that the bible is wrong. If so, then you are both living in loony land. I say this because you are ignoring absolute fact. Wake up to the 21st century! Science is real, human progress is real. Sorry to be blunt but scriputre is so 2000 years ago. God minded = narrow minded!

    • Jim says:

      10:13pm | 09/09/11

      “Science uses exactly the same method.  The student of science and the scientist set out to learn, not to affirm what they already know.  When did human knowledge become perfect?”

      No it doesn’t! Science uses methods that are continually tried and tested until you can no longer disprove them. Students learn what we already know! They then find new discoveries and build on previous knowledge. Everything we know is built on previous knowledge. Human knowlege is nowhere near perfect but there is one fact…..........EVERYTHING WE ENJOY IN THE 21ST CENTURY LIFESTYLE TODAY IS FOUNDED USING THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD. Aircraft, spacecraft, mobile phones, internet, computers, medicine…....I can go on and on. This is the evidence that the scientific method works! You cannot deny this! This is a threat to religion and you know it!

    • Peter Anderson says:

      09:46am | 10/09/11

      Put it this way, I’ve never experienced a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION, but I’ve read accounts of people who have survived one, and seen film of quite a fewexplosions from a distance and close up.  Similarly I’ve never experienced an invisible God creating a universe from scratch, that is, been right there, but with the help of the internet (including NASA) I’ve read and seen a whole lot of the world and the universe which may have resulted from such an event, and most of the people I know realise that their lives are an experience of an immense ‘something’ which has a mysterious origin.  Some choose to call the origin ‘creation’, perhaps because they believe in their mind they can understand how God created it (did God’s voice speaking the universe into existence make a noise loud enough to be called a big ‘bang’?) .  Some choose to call the result ‘the universe’ and leave the big bang as a mechanical act.  They do not attach any personality to it. Yet if human beings have personality, imagination and creative ability, then personality, imagination and creative ability are principles currently existent in the universe.  I n my little blogospherical opinion it isn’t merely a flatly mechanical act because of its results (even though the blogosphere looks flat on my screen!).  You can revere those principles if you want and even believe that they are intimations of God’s image, if you want.  The world is full of variety.  The principles on which it runs make diversity, even in religious thinking and interpretations of the Bible and lifestyle.  Alternatively you could say that they are simply mathematical anomalies in the general conformity of human life or something else.  It’s up to you.

      ‘Everything we know is built on previous knowledge’: yes, that’s the foundation of understanding what a ‘true possibility’ is.  That’s what invention is - the imagination of a true possibility.  Just like I’ve never seen a watch which wasn’t made by a watch-maker, so I could admire the principles of cumulative evolution (overcoming the forces of entropy) and speculate that there’s a kind of being that could invent a universe which evolves.  Then I might try to imagine what such a being would be like.  Then I might try to write it in a book.  If it was a good enough book, then some people might teach it to other generations. Alternatively, I might choose to put my face on film or television and describe it to people and see if we can get an enlightened culture out of it instead of being overrun by racial imperialists, violent extremists and greedy bankers.

      I’ve never met a science student who at the outset of their studies has known what they were setting out to learn - but they’ve been told that there are things to learn and in some way invited into that knowledge. Similarly I’ve never met a religious convert who has known everything about the religion they join before hand, but they’ve in some way been invited into that knowledge.  A civilisation which can’t or won’t reconcile the historical development of its different branches of knowledge is like a magpie picking out its own eyes.

      It’s really up to you what you understand or not.

    • Jim says:

      01:31pm | 10/09/11

      “Similarly I’ve never met a religious convert who has known everything about the religion they join before hand, but they’ve in some way been invited into that knowledge.”

      And more often than not, pushed into it! Culture and upbringing play major roles in someone believing a particular religion. Some others become converted due to things missing in thier lives (like love and the human need to belong) and then naively believe what the church preaches to them without asking many questions. Some people can be talked into anything.
      Why continue to teach things that science proves wrong when the fact is science continues to prove itself. Just take a look around at what mankind has done since the industrial revolution. This is the evidence!

    • Peter Anderson says:

      02:49pm | 10/09/11

      You can choose what to understand and what to misunderstand.  It’s totally up to you.  You can choose to agree or to disagree.  You can argue with whole books, whole cultures, languages, races, or one single sentence in a million.  You can reduce the meaning of the universe to two letters at the end of a word, if that’s what you want.  It’s really up to you.  If you read blogs through you can read people typing and stereo-typing each other to death. 

      All the people I know in religion have gone there of their own accord.  You might know cult members, or people intimidated into religious conformity, but yelling at people about the benefits of science won’t free them, if that’s your goal. All it does is confirm what religions say about those who don’t believe in them and turns them off science.  If science on its own represents such a great leap across a mental and physical chasm for humankind, why can any old religious culture use or abuse its inventions to promote themselves? Surely if science on its own is so different, such people would be intellectually incapable of handling the tools of science.  But that isn’t true. You can find all sorts of people in science laboratories, communications and IT industries, engineering and so on.  People quip about the writings of goat-herders and flying spaghetti monsters on blogs all the time, but at least religious speculation encourages people to talk to each other, so I reckon try to comprehend what the old books can teach you about what you know now and what you don’t.  Of course, it’s up to you what you understand and what you don’t.

    • Peter Anderson says:

      03:39pm | 10/09/11

      Anne, the earth is an oblate spheroid, which means it’s slightly squashed.  So if it’s a ball, then it’s a squash ball bouncing on a court, and distorted. The only difference is your imagination as to whether the Bible is therefore true if it calls the earth a ball. Have a look at this page, it has some good animations. http://www.josleys.com/show_gallery.php?galid=313  If I get a ball and look at it closely, it isn’t a precise sphere.  Instead, it has irregularities on its surface. So a sphere is a geometrical form, perfect in conception, and a ball is something different. Great, we know the earth is almost round, although it isn’t smooth!  What you call God, and Truth, others call the Universe and Fact.  There are many definitions of both, and it is actually possible to find definitions of Universe and God which are virtually identical because the Facts they embrace are the same as the Truth.  Reconcile the branches of knowledge and be liberated from the nonsense of arguing that they’re separate.  Then you can pray while you surf the net, or test the ozone layer, and any atheist will just wonder how they could have missed such obvious facts.  Christian Kerr’s headline was correct.

    • Annie says:

      07:40am | 17/09/11

      Peter I agree with you,  God the Creator - Truth - and the Universe are one and the Bible the good Old Book tells us that this is so but as you said it is man’s choice if he looks for the Truth or continues to believe in his own imagination.

    • Jim says:

      10:20am | 22/09/11

      “if he looks for the Truth or continues to believe in his own imagination”
      But isn’t that exactly where the bible comes from? Providing ‘answers’ to the great unknowns?

    • Jim says:

      11:11pm | 24/09/11

      Christian’s headline is INCORRECT. See why below.
      You need to look at the definition of the word ‘insecure’.

      in·se·cureAdjective/?insi?kyo?or/1. (of a person) Not confident or assured; uncertain or anxious.

      I certainly don’t think Atheists are any of these! They are very clearly arguing the case against a supernatural creator and disagree with those who attempt to convert! They’re not thinking…....ahhh maybe a god exists and are uncertain or anxious about it.

      Enough rubbish Christian

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:29pm | 04/10/11

      Jim says I’ve never met a religious convert who has known everything about the religion they join before hand… You just meet one,  pleased to meet you Jim but you are very wrong,  not just me but many people before they commit to Christianity know a great deal about what it teaches,  I asked many Questions because I believed in Evolution and had done for many years so I was not prepared to give that up without being sure what I was hearing wasn’t deception.

      As far as turning to faith to be fulfilled, yes I am but for almost 30 years I sought others ways to meet my needs as many others do including Atheists . As for Scientist where do you think their wisdom. knowledge, brain, Logic and reasoning come from and the original raw materials to create what they do, Evolution has no answers only unproven theories many of which have been proven to be false, which means what they propagate is rubbish.

      Take Care Jim - Kind regards Anne.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:08pm | 04/10/11

      Jim says… Anne/ Peter claim it’s hard to find a picture which shows what our planet’s real shape is…..  I never said this at all Jim please go back and read what I did say you will be very surprised I wasn’t born yesterday as you seem to imply.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Jim says:

      05:19pm | 06/10/11

      “I asked many Questions because I believed in Evolution and had done for many years so I was not prepared to give that up without being sure what I was hearing wasn’t deception.”

      Sorry but how can you say that evolution is deception? Deception means trickery. Do you honestly believe that scientists are DELIBERATLY trying to deceive you? Why would they do that? Evolution does not explain where we came from but does explain many theories and also many facts that back up the theory.

      Scientists are modest enough to call it the Theory of Evolution. The Religious are Naive enough to think their faith is fact.
      The Theory of Evolution is based on studies and many facts…........The bible just gives ‘convenient answers’ from 2000 years ago.
      Just have a look at animals who have features like ours. Eyes, nose, ears, nervous system, blood, etc. Why are they so similar to us and not something entirely different?

      Raw elements come from stars. This has been proven or let me guess you think scientists are deceiving you here too.

      Peter claimed it was hard to find the real shape of the Earth not you so I apologise for that. Come on though Peter, there are people in space now looking at the Earth from the space station.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:35am | 11/10/11

      Sorry Jim in all the time I have been with Punch not one person who has made the same claims as you have about Evolution and the Big Bang have been unable to show any evidence to support them except that which also confirms Creation.

      What I think has happened with Evolution Scientists is they have dug themselves into a hole they can’t get out of so they are searching frantically trying to produce something that is just not there.

      On the other hand Creation Scientists have no doubts,  all the evidence is there ...like your belly button and your feet and hands and other parts of the Human body.

      Take Care Kind regards Anne

    • mel says:

      03:20pm | 13/10/11

      Oh Anne Stocks, on another thread:

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/dogmatism-derails-both-sides-of-the-religious-debate/

      you said that you would provide evidence from nature to prove the biblical creation story is true. You have been asked many times to provide the evidence, either privately or in a public forum, and you have still not done this, yet you still keep saying that creation “science” is true. You have not provided one skerrick of evidence “from nature” to back up your claim. You should do what you have promised: “put up or shut up” is the phrase, or the posters here will start to regard you as being a tedious troll.

      Or you could simply admit the truth: that you don’t have any evidence.

    • Jim says:

      10:56pm | 13/10/11

      Sorry Anne, but all the time on Punch, not one religious person, even you has been able to prove the bible is 100% fact. The evidence is HOW you’re god created everything.

      “On the other hand Creation Scientists have no doubts,  all the evidence is there ...like your belly button and your feet and hands and other parts of the Human body.”

      This stuff is not evidence Anne. Please look up the definition of evidence and get back to me. You might be suprised. The points you mentioned can all be explained.

      The hole ‘dug’ by evolutionary scientists is getting wider and wider with knowledge and understanding that they’re getting. You may be in denial but I can assure you they’re not frantically trying to prove this stuff. The theory is accepted by the majority and they keep finding evidence that constantly backs up this theory.
      So please ask yourself again if they are deliberatly deceiving you and tricking you into this theory and running around frantically trying to prove the theory. Anne, I don’t think so. It doesn’t sound logical to me. Does it to you?
      You did say you were rational you know.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      08:54pm | 21/11/11

      Jim in all the time I have been posting on Punch even when using a Pen name,  not one of you have given any evidence to support Evolution except that which also confirms Creation ...I have supported written evidence which I have shared with you and others many times….. need I say more.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Jim says:

      08:14am | 08/12/11

      Anne, I’m not a evolutionary scientist but I use logic to work out that the knowlege we build on in science is based on accepting methods that have been tried and tested many times with the same result. This is accepted as evidence. Therefore, I don’t think scientists are just making these claims of Evolution without credible evidence or by trying to be deceitful as you have previously mentioned.

      You have said “What I think has happened with Evolution Scientists is they have dug themselves into a hole they can’t get out of so they are searching frantically trying to produce something that is just not there.”
      WRONG! You are in denial or just don’t understand scientific theory.
      There are massive industries produced from our scientific knowledge/research including our acceptance by majority of the theory of Evolution.

      There is not one industry or community group (including your religion) in Australia that does not benefit from science. The things we have today are real. These are hard facts. Evidence that scientific research produces results.

      You have NOT supported written EVIDENCE because your writings are not evidence. They are CLAIMS.
      As I have said before, evidence is HOW your god did it, not just accepting that ‘he/she/it’ made everything. This is the difference.

 

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