The second most appallingly idiotic consequence of the Greens’ decision to block an emissions trading scheme – and let’s face it there is some very strong competition – is that it has managed to turn a debate over what to do about climate change into a debate over whether it is even real or not.

It’s hard to believe, but just a couple of years ago the vast majority of the public overwhelmingly supported action on man-made global warming and a comprehensive carbon pollution reduction scheme was all but inevitable, with strong bi-partisan support led by the top minds of the Labor and Liberal parties.

But then the flat-earth faction of the Coalition revolted and Malcolm Turnbull was assassinated in one of the more disappointing but thoroughly entertaining episodes of Australian politics. (Remember when Kevin Andrews was going to be Opposition Leader? Good times.)

Turnbull having been betrayed by the hard right of his own party, and the Rudd Government now betrayed by the Liberals, the fate of Mother Gaia now lay in the hands of the loose collection of vegetables we affectionately refer to as “Greens”. Finally their chance to save the planet had arrived.

But did they save it? Did those hemp-wearing compost mulchers help the Earth Goddess make it to the next full moon party?

No they did not. Instead they effectively united with the hard right of the Liberal party to plunge a stake through the heart of Mother Earth. A stake upon which no organic tomatoes grew.

The fully mandated and fully modelled carbon pollution reduction scheme, a plan to save the planet that was overwhelmingly endorsed by voters for both major parties at the previous federal election, was killed off by a minor party which claims – and this is like totes ironic – to be pro-environment.

In one of those delightfully succinct appraisals that the British are so good at, the top scientist Lord May of Oxford – an advisor to the UK Government on their proudly up-and-running emissions trading scheme – used the following term to describe the Greens’ move: “Stupid.”

But since that remarkably apt assessment, things have, though it is hard to believe, deteriorated further.

Thanks to the Greens’ naïve, self-serving and elitist obstructionism (due to “an overriding desire to feel good about themselves” according to the ever-observant Lord May) we are now in an environment where the debate has shifted to whether or not man-made climate change is even real.

People whose previous high-watermark of achievement was presetting a VCR in the 1980s (and don’t get me wrong, that was seriously hard) are earnestly espousing their considered position that man-made global warming isn’t happening, as though such things were merely a matter of opinion.

People whose highest qualification is a three-week HTML course at the local TAFE (again, also hard) are throwing up websites preaching whackjob theories about scientists conspiring to take over the world. (More worryingly they say it as if that would be a bad thing.)

In short, it is my firm belief that the sky is green and that Mount Everest is actually a rockpool near Acapulco and any scientist who says otherwise is just lying to get a government grant.

These views are increasingly being given equal weighting in the public debate. And why?

Because once the loony left Greens showed themselves to be intransigent, extreme and unwilling to be reasonable on this most important issue, the loony right suddenly didn’t appear so loony.

Average Australians saw the Greens actively enforce zero action on a situation they had previously deemed catastrophic. Surely this blatant and clumsy politicking over such a vital issue meant they didn’t truly believe in its gravity and were only seeking to empower themselves?

Such self-serving behaviour is perfect fodder for right-wing conspiracy theorists. It is, to use a term even the Greens themselves might understand, their fuel.

And are they right? Do the Greens care more about political posturing and going to bed in their inner-city terraces with smug self-satisfaction than they do about saving the planet?

Well, let’s look at the facts – or rather the one most salient and inescapable fact that roars like a lion this week: If it were not for the Greens, Australia would have a functioning, active and effective emissions trading scheme today.

Let’s just contemplate that again: We would have an emissions trading scheme cutting carbon pollution right now – but the Greens stopped it from happening.

And since that point, the ALP-Greens alliance has been so woeful at advocating the case for climate change and what to do about it that they have actually started turning former believers away in droves. It’s enough to make any self-respecting spin doctor reach for the sick bucket.

So here we are. Not talking about what to do to save the planet, but whether the planet even needs saving at all. You can smell Rome burning.

But as I said, this was only the second most idiotic result of the Greens’ actions.

The even bigger concern is that the Greens-ALP prosecution of and response to the climate change issue has been so excruciatingly inept it has ensured not just a victory for the Coalition at the next election, but a Coalition with both a will and a mandate to tear up any serious plans to reduce carbon emissions.

Sadly for Lord May and anyone else genuinely concerned about climate change the word “stupid” does not even begin to describe the Greens’ role in this. “Tragi-moronic” might be closer to the mark.

307 comments

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    • Erick says:

      06:07am | 06/07/11

      There’s that denial again. Simply mocking climate change skeptics won’t work. If you don’t address actual issues such as Climategate, you are leaving the field open to your opponents - with the results you lament.

      Ignoring, denying, and name-calling the skeptics doesn’t work. Yet the warmists keep on doing it.

    • Mitchell says:

      08:07am | 06/07/11

      I don’t see anyone name calling but you Erick.
      Your beloved “climategate” is in no way an
      issue, it has been thoroughly scrutinised and all the scientists have been exonerated.
      You probably can’t see the irony in your statement “... name-calling the skeptics doesn’t work. Yet the warmists keep on doing it.” But it did give me good chuckle, thanks.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:19am | 06/07/11

      How true, Hildebrand’s stupid name-calling merely illustrates he hasn’t got a valid argument.

      BTW I’ve got a BSc(Hon) and my wife’s got a PhD (science) and we are yet to be convinced by the name-calling warmists.

    • Anthony of WA says:

      08:20am | 06/07/11

      Erick, that is because that is all they have, and the regular guy in the street is starting to see it. The facts are at odds with the computer modeling and the longer it goes on, the more exposed they will become.

    • Erick says:

      08:21am | 06/07/11

      P.S. It wasn’t the Greens’ intransigence that broke the back of mass belief in the global warming theory. It was Climategate and the unravelling of Copenhagen.

      The failure of the warmists to address legitimate concerns with their methodology and data, together with the succeeding revelations of misrepresentation, cheating and fraud by various advocates, tolled the death knell for the consensus.

      At this point there seems little prospect for recovery by the warmists, since they are unable to respond to criticism with anything better than silencing tactics. In the Internet age, that won’t work.

    • Patrick says:

      08:22am | 06/07/11

      Things like ‘climategate’’ have been addressed, again and again and again, and skeptic arguments from people like monckton, carter, etc, have also been refuted.

      But what happens when this is explained to skeptics? It is dismissed out of hand because scientists are supposedly in the pocket of government, greedily gobbling up grants, practicing their profession as though they actually wanted to be CEOs in the private stector rather than spending 15 years of study to become a climatologist. That or they are corrupt on their own terms. Your confirmation bias does mean however that you will accept any and all skeptic opinions because it agrees with what you have already decided to be true.

      Oh, and no evidence is ever provided for that claim, it is just an easy way to dismiss all arguments that disagree with your preset view, and when ‘evidence’ does come forth such as ‘climategate’, it is quickly unraveled as being untrue as the last lot of accusations.

      Sure, it may not convince people, but if you continue to effectively claim that 1+1 = 3 when shown that it in fact equals 2, you deserve all the derision you get.

    • Tom says:

      08:50am | 06/07/11

      Mitchel, “I don’t see anyone name calling”? Bwaahhahahah.

      For a kick-off, how about:
      “the flat-earth faction of the Coalition”,
      “websites preaching whackjob theories about scientists conspiring to take over the world”
      “it is my firm belief that the sky is green and that Mount Everest is actually a rockpool near Acapulco and any scientist who says otherwise is just lying to get a government grant.”
      “the hard right of the Liberal party to plunge a stake through the heart of Mother Earth”

      Perhaps you missed those little gems, Mitchell? Try having a re-read.

      @Joel B1, well said. It is interesting to compare your own scientific background to that of Joe Hildebrand. Joe, a typical Aussie journalist from the left, would not have the intellectual honesty to address these “inconvenient truths”. Instead Joe is comfortable with groupthink, momentum rhetoric and adhominems.

    • SydSteve says:

      08:55am | 06/07/11

      @Joel B1, I noticed that you neglected to mention what your partner majored in. Also I doubt that a 3-4 yr general science course gives you an overall understanding of the universe.
      I’m half way through a general science degree. Could you please tell me what course you took to learn everything there is to know about everything?

    • Michael says:

      08:59am | 06/07/11

      persephone is the warmists problem personified. Poor explanations, dismissive of alternate views and using insulting language to silence opposition and intimidate people from entering into the debate.

      Oh, and trying to link a carbon tax to reduction of climate change.

      “the scince is settled, a carbon tax is the best way to keep AGW below 2 degrees”.

      “This is the recession Australia had to have”.

      “by 1990, no Australian child will live in poverty.”

    • Bev says:

      09:07am | 06/07/11

      Mitchell says:08:07am | 06/07/11

      I don’t see anyone name calling but you Erick.

      Skipping words are we?

      flat-earth faction

    • Brian Taylor says:

      09:21am | 06/07/11

      @ Mitchell, maybe if you bothered to read the post, you’d see for yourself that joe has used the terms, as follows:-
      flat-earth faction
      hemp-wearing compost mulchers
      People whose previous high-watermark of achievement was presetting a VCR in the 1980s
      the loony right
      Tragi-moronic
      if all of the above is not name calling what is?

    • Brian Taylor says:

      09:29am | 06/07/11

      @ SydSteve… isn’t it wonderful that you’re half way through a general science degree…. that’d give you the right to do joe blow’s thinking for him, seeing he’s not as smart as you.
      you bloody clever dicks get right up my nose with you’re “I’m smart and you’re not”
      having a degree doesn’t make you smarter than us steve, it just means you’re sucking the tit of the taxpayer longer than most.

    • Rover of North Cooma says:

      09:39am | 06/07/11

      Erick, you took this pretty personally. Did you fail the three-week HTML course?

    • Bev says:

      09:39am | 06/07/11

      Erick says:08:21am | 06/07/11

      P.S. It wasn’t the Greens’ intransigence that broke the back of mass belief in the global warming theory. It was Climategate and the unravelling of Copenhagen.

      Climategate did not get a real run here like it did overseas.  Many are really not all that aware of it.  I think it was mostly Copenhagen.  People were prepared to go with it but when it stalled people started thinking why?
      Was it that other countries didn’t see it as drastic as it was painted?
      Did other countries see that crippling their economies as a cure worse than the disease?
      What the point of shooting yourself in the economic foot when others didn’t thereby giving them a big advantage.

      Once people started looking the holes surfaced. 
      Like our efforts would make one jot of difference to the temperature.
      The Himalayan were not melting. This bit had been fudged, that bit had been fudged in fact great chunks had been fudged.
      They started asking questions of the guru’s.  Instead of answers they got calling names. Bingo!
      Only goes to proving the old adage about fooling people.

    • Mitchell says:

      10:02am | 06/07/11

      Joel B1 - A PhD in Science? That doesn’t exist.
      You can get a PhD in Biochemistry, Agricultural statistics and mathematical physics, but I have never heard of a PhD in Science and I doubt one has existed in the last 300 years.
      Tell us your field, show us some work that either of you have done regarding your stance on climate science. There’s no closed doors anywhere, if you can prove it’s all a sham and thousands of competing scientists are all conspiring together, you will be a hero, make a lot of money and be remembered in history as the genius who saved the world from an intellectual dictatorship of nerds hellbent on stopping us all driving 4WD’s.
      If you don’t have links to your work the journal and date will do fine. Keen to read it.

    • Tom says:

      10:10am | 06/07/11

      So SydSteve, you reckon Joel B1’s science qualifications might not be up to your exacting standards? How much less would Joe Hildebrand’s qualifications be? How much less would every bleating socialist on this planet be qualified to express an opinion?

      How much less qualified would Turnbull, Gillard, Swann, Howes, Al Gore and every other opportunistic creep slavering at the taxpayer’s trough be to express an opinion?

      Yet people like you expect us to accept that, somehow, tax advocates must know and skeptics don’t know? ICB (I Call Bullsh**).

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      10:31am | 06/07/11

      Cutting back carbon emissions, climate change, global warming, cleaning up the planet, saving the planet for future generations etc etc etc has become intertwined with politics and the economy. The problem we are facing is blindly trusting the Govt, economists and environmentalists. PM Gillard lied to us, Garnaut was on the Govt payroll and economists justifying their profession. All had invested interests so were out to influence the public in any way they possibly can.

      Take the economists and politicians away, problem solved. This is where the Greens comes in ‘all in for the carbon tax and no compensation’ and not the Gillard/Swan, Oakeshott/Windsor some in and some out ‘carbon tax and compensation.’

      I am looking forward to the mess this Govt will make out of their complicated policy and how long will the Greens hold out with what they have had to compromise to get a deal finalised.

    • ZSRenn says:

      11:06am | 06/07/11

      @ Mitchell, Your links are not the scrutiny of Climategate but the scrutiny of two of the hundreds of scientists involved in Climategate.

      The first one is hardly a exoneration and even uses words that point to it being true the scientist had forwarded false data.

      The Penn State link asked the scientist did you try to alter data he said no. Penn State went fair enough no need for further investigation.

      This is an exact example of why people have lost the faith of Climate Change! 

      Your actions are another example by twisting the truth re the articles as if it was proof Climategate didn’t happen.

    • Eric # 2 says:

      11:15am | 06/07/11

      @ Mitchell being a bit of a clever dick re PhD’s.  My son has a PhD in quantitative finance.  The average person has little idea what this is so I tell them its in financial mathematics.  Is that too broad for you also?

    • Zee says:

      11:21am | 06/07/11

      Hang on, so “hemp-wearing compost mulchers” is name-calling the skeptics?

      I think we should stop calling them flat earthers and just start calling them what they are - a bunch of blouses.

    • John the Zombie says:

      11:31am | 06/07/11

      Dear Mr Hilderban, I am someone who does not believe in manmade climate change but that it is a natural change that occurs on earth through factors such as our movement in space, sun activity, moon and other natural factors that affect our earth. My background is a Bachelor of Commerce and currently studying a Masters of Finance.

      I have worked with people with disabilities and within my community. I have travelled to many Asia countries and follow the news around the world vividly. I have a good understanding of market forces and how different countries have gone about their energy needs and the reason behind it.

      During my high school and Uni studies I didn’t choose to go out and party like other students but choose to work hard by working 38 hours a week to pay off my HECs debt and books. I didn’t have rich parents and choose not to rely on Austudy for my living expenses. I choose also to help around the house and pay my way (something that is rarely done these days).

      Maybe before you describe as the people who have a different view as you as “People whose highest qualification is a three-week HTML course at the local TAFE (again, also hard) are throwing up websites preaching whack job theories about scientists conspiring to take over the world. (More worryingly they say it as if that would be a bad thing.)”

      I do not believe scientist are out to take over the world but I do believe that a lot of scientist who oppose the view that climate change is manmade are shut out of the debate or screamed down by the other groups. This became more prevalent in a recent interview on a radio station where a scientist was asked to give a view on both policies but all the scientist did was attack the liberal policy and TA. Another situation that the labor and greens like to keep quiet on is the matter of the former head of the CSIRO. This man opposed the view of manmade climate change and was asked to leave his job. Talk about keeping a neutral and even debate (he lost his job for having an opposing view).

      Last but no least if the Greens were so srs about the ETS then they would of back Howards in 2007 as he has a history of following through with his policies unlike this mob we have in power.

      End of the day the true reason the Greens opposed the ETS is because it didn’t meet the goal of wealth re-distribution.

    • Tom says:

      11:33am | 06/07/11

      Mitchell, You are the one that wants our money. You prove it to us that its not a “sham”. Otherwise, go and tax yourself.

    • Tom says:

      11:54am | 06/07/11

      Bewdy Zee, “blouses”? A rib tickler mate. It that should wow them at the Newtown caucus meeting tonight.

    • LC says:

      12:02pm | 06/07/11

      @ Mitchell

      Have you read the article mate?

      “the flat-earth faction of the Coalition”
      “People whose previous high-watermark of achievement was presetting a VCR in the 1980s”
      “People whose highest qualification is a three-week HTML course at the local TAFE (again, also hard) are throwing up websites preaching whackjob theories about scientists conspiring to take over the world?”
      “In short, it is my firm belief that the sky is green and that Mount Everest is actually a rockpool near Acapulco and any scientist who says otherwise is just lying to get a government grant.”

    • SydSteve says:

      01:15pm | 06/07/11

      @Brian Taylor

      My point is that neither of us are qualified to make a judgement on the science. I don’t know how you missed that point. That’s why there are scientists trained in that field.

      Btw, I work fulltime and study externally. I pay my own way.

    • doctrinal says:

      02:01pm | 06/07/11

      Erick, you haven’t come up with anything, yourself.

    • The Lion says:

      02:24pm | 06/07/11

      Love the warmist’s ..  Really most of you people with an opinion have no idea. If you voted for the greens labor independents willing to make themselves rich machine then all I can say to you is suck it !  Love the article Joe hit the nail on the head. Greens = bunch of wankers

    • Erick says:

      02:46pm | 06/07/11

      @doctrinal - Why should I “come up with anything”? I’m not the one who’s trying to convince the public that the world faces disaster unless we put in a huge new tax.

      I’ve given advice to the global warming believers before. It was good advice, and they should have taken it.

    • Mitchell says:

      03:37pm | 06/07/11

      Eric # 2 -  But what does your son call himself? I bet it isn’t PhD (Economics)
      Just because you only speak to people that don’t understand doesn’t mean you should dumb down everything you say.
      And since your son has a PhD, which is considered enough to tell everyone else what to think regarding everything - can he tell us about the global climatic state and humans effect upon it?
      Seems there is a lot of people willing to speak for others with doctorates on the punch today. How many Doctorates have actually spoken for themselves? None I suspect.

    • Denial is a disease says:

      03:37pm | 06/07/11

      @Erick,

      Yeah, why would we believe a consensus of scientists when we could believe some random guy who has devoted his life to a News Limited forum?

      Anyone still using “climategate” as a justification for their climate change denial is either willfully ignoring the exhaustive investigation into it (see Mitchell’s links), or is grasping at straws for ideological reasons. Either way, by referring to it you’ve shown your hand. You have nothing.

      I reserve the right to mock holocaust deniers and climate change deniers alike.

      If it helps, I don’t view you with scorn, but with pity.

    • Anubis says:

      03:59pm | 06/07/11

      @ Denial is a Disease

      From the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Monday (Mann, Stock, Kaufmann, Kauppi) - Given the widely noted increase in the warming effects of rising greenhouse gas concentrations, it has been unclear why global surface temperatures did NOT rise between 1998 and 2008. Furthermore, Global Surface temperature declined 0.2C between 2005 and 2008. This seeming disconnect may be one reason why the public is increasingly sceptical about anthropogenic climate change.”

      There you are, straight from the scientists who “believe”. The world has not warmed since 1998. And note - they too have dumped the term Global Warming and changed it to climate change.

      In case you are not aware Michael Mann, who is mentioned above, is a prominent member of the UN scientific panel whose landmark 2007 report warned that climate change was unequivocal and mostly caused by humans. And here he is last Monday clearly stating that the world has not experienced warming, but has in fact cooled, since 1998.

      There is cause for being sceptical of the Global Warming/Climate Change theism when even the experts are having trouble explaining why their “end of the world” predictions just aren’t happening.

    • RBarron says:

      04:06pm | 06/07/11

      This is why I don’t believe in the idea of damage man made climate change.
      And the Carbon Tax is the biggest Scam and it is falling apart quick.
      Faint young Sun problem
      Theoretical models of the Sun’s development suggest that 3.8 to 2.5 billion years ago, during the Archean period, the Sun was only about 75% as bright as it is today. Such a weak star would not have been able to sustain liquid water on the Earth’s surface, and thus life should not have been able to develop. However, the geological record demonstrates that the Earth has remained at a fairly constant temperature throughout its history, and that the young Earth was somewhat warmer than it is today. The consensus among scientists is that the young Earth’s atmosphere contained much larger quantities of greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide, methane and/or ammonia) than are present today, which trapped enough heat to compensate for the smaller amount of solar energy reaching the planet.

      All without HUMANS
      Theoretical Models
      Less Sun?
      Warmer that today?
      Much larger quantities of greenhouse gases?
      And again All without Humans
      What proven sciences underpins Faint young Sun Problem?

      Global Warming
      Climate Change
      Whatever you want call it.
      Today More Sun?
      Today Cooler Than before ?
      Today quantities of greenhouse gases less?
      With Humans
      What proven sciences underpins Global Warming?

      From
      Taken from the IPCC 2007
      Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis
      Historical Overview of Climate Change Science

      A characteristic of Earth sciences is that Earth scientists are unable to perform controlled experiments on the planet as a whole and then observe the results. In this sense, Earth science is similar to the disciplines of astronomy and cosmology that cannot conduct experiments on galaxies or the cosmos. This is an important consideration, because it is precisely such whole-Earth, system-scale experiments, incorporating the full complexity of interacting processes and feedbacks, that might ideally be required to fully verify or falsify climate change hypotheses

      The meaning of a Hypotheses.

      Hypothesis
      A supposition; a proposition or principle which is supposed or taken for granted, in order to draw a conclusion or inference for proof of the point in question; something not proved, but assumed for the purpose of argument, or to account for a fact or an occurrence


      Food for thought
      Have you heard about Rondanelli, R. & R.S. Lindzen (2009) Can thin cirrus clouds in the tropics provide a solution to the faint young sun paradox? (to be submitted to Journal of Geophysical Research).

      Have you read the 2008 NASA Report.
      http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/23sep_solarwind/
      I have read on a NASA website the average pressure of the solar wind has dropped more than 20% since the mid-1990s. And the speed of the million mph solar wind hasn’t decreased much—only 3%. The change in pressure comes mainly from reductions in temperature and density. The solar wind is 13% cooler and 20% less dense. How much does this play in climate change.

      But I read that there has been a 20% increase in galactic cosmic rays from black holes and supernovas hitting the earth due to weakened solar wind not inflating the heliosphere as much as it used to and also a weakening of the sun’s magnetic field by more than 30% reduces natural shielding from the cosmic rays.

      It also stated that there are controversial studies linking cosmic ray fluxes to cloudiness and climate change on Earth.

      The Real World
      Within the bounds of error, average global temperature hasn’t increased since 1995 (15 years) and temperature has actually been falling slightly since 2001 (10 years). Meanwhile, over the last ten years atmospheric carbon dioxide levels have increased by 5%.
      The conclusion is obvious. More carbon dioxide is not causing dangerous warming. Indeed, and despite it being an undoubted greenhouse gas, carbon dioxide emissions are not currently producing any measurable (as opposed to theoretical) warming at all.
      Part 1

    • Erick says:

      04:07pm | 06/07/11

      Thus proving my point.

    • RBarron says:

      04:11pm | 06/07/11

      Part 2
      I would bet on Nasa because they are Rocket Sciences
      NASA Earth Observatory Computer Climate Models
      Computer Climate Models
      Scientists use computer climate models to help them understand how temperature in different regions of the world may change as carbon dioxide increases.
      Mathematical equations can describe many of the physical processes that influence climate on earth. See if you can describe how mathematical equations and computer models help scientists understand how climate may change in the future.
      The oceans, atmosphere, land, sea ice, and even plants and animals all play a part in determining climate.
      These parts of the climate system interact in complex ways.
      For decades now, scientists have observed and measured these interactions. Often, an interaction between two components of the climate system can be described by a mathematical equation.
      For example, a mathematical equation might describe the relationship between wind speed and evaporation over the ocean.
      Another equation might describe the relationship between air temperature and sea ice formation.
      For years, scientists have been proposing and refining equations that describe hundreds of links between various parts of the climate system.
      In the last decade, with the help of super-fast computers, scientists have begun to combine these equations into complex computer programs, referred to as climate models.
      Scientists can run the programs to obtain predictions about what climate might be like years and even decades from now.
      One of the mathematical variables in climate models is atmospheric carbon dioxide. Scientists can enter different values for carbon dioxide in the model, and run the program to see how this affects other components of the model, such as rainfall or air temperature.
      Some parts of the climate system, such as clouds and airborne particles, are difficult to represent using mathematical equations.
      But clouds and particles have important effects on global climate.
      As a result, current day computer models can only provide an estimation of how climate might change, given particular starting conditions.
      In summary, computer climate models provide scientists with a useful method of estimating how the climate system may change in the future.
      The sciences is WHAT ??????

    • Rob Russell says:

      06:37pm | 06/07/11

      “all the scientists have been exonerated.”

      No they were not, any rational person (on any side of the debate) would agree they acted unethically and unprofessionally.  Not charged does not mean not guilty/

    • malohi says:

      06:16am | 06/07/11

      I wake up to this shit?
      Move this ridiculous, poorly written, obnoxious rant somewhere further down the page lest other loyal readers be ambushed by this balderdash.

    • Jeremy says:

      09:14am | 06/07/11

      Hildebrand presumably knows that:
      1. The original ETS was a deal between Libs and Labor and Labor ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to even talk to the Greens about it. It was vote for this legislation as is or not at all.
      2. The Greens’ objection to the original ETS was the amount of taxpayer money going to the biggest polluters and encouraging them to pollute: ie, worse than the status quo.

      And yet Joe mentions neither of these in his silly rant. You might suspect he has no answer to them, or he wouldn’t have pretended those rather critical facts don’t exist.

      Fortunately for the Greens, very few of their voters believe a word published by News Ltd about them anyway. And for good reason!

    • Jordan Rastrick says:

      11:12am | 06/07/11

      Sorry, but you’re wrong, Jeremy, and funnily enough you’ll never answer sustained questioning by me on this topic on your own blog.

      1. There was an ETS that was not a deal between the Libs and Labor that the Greens still voted down; Rudd only negotiated with Turnbull after failing to get his preferred legislation past the Senate.

      2. The original ETS was not worse than the status quo; it would have cut emissions compared to the no-scheme case. The Greens actual objection, in as much as they had a coherent one, was that it would “lock in failure”, i.e. it would reduce the chances of eventually getting the necessary stronger scheme in place. So far, it seems, they were wrong in this political calculation.

    • Jeremy says:

      03:20pm | 06/07/11

      Jordan

      1. Oh yes, and what were the terms of this pre-Turnbull ETS?
      2. The Rudd-Turnbull ETS locked in so much reward for polluters that they wouldn’t have done anything till the 2020s at the earliest and we wouldn’t have even hit the 5% reduction.
      3. That reward was a massive transfer of money from the taxpayer to the polluters
      4. If Hildebrand is aware of the Greens’ responses to the “why did you vote down the Turnbull Rudd ETS” line - and if he isn’t, then he’s not much of a journalist - then why didn’t he address them? Why’d he just pretend they didn’t exist?

    • Jordan Rastrick says:

      12:45pm | 08/07/11

      1. Do you want me to find the entire piece of legislation and post it here?

      2. It didn’t lock in anything; future governments always had the option of arguing to strengthen the scheme once people were able to see it wasn’t the end of the world (goodbye Abbott scare campaign), once the science becomes more widely understood, and once a stronger international consensus appears. It also was a scheme that went to the right place in the long term, which is what really matters; stronger cuts now buy a little more breathing room but ultimately the real crunch will always be on the home stretch as we go toward 2050 [fortunately, we can expect the tech to be a lot better by then.]

      3. I’ve made this point before and I’ll make it again. Only low income households were substantially over-compensated for the scheme and thus net recipients of a wealth transfer - which I’m sure is not something you’d object to. The “hand outs” to polluters were to be funded *out of the CPRS*. Its grossly dishonest to try and depict it as a transfer from non-polluting taxpayers to polluters - it was in fact about moving moeny from some polluters to other polluters, generally where the latter are trade-exposed and thus taxing them absent stronger international action is likely just to shift emissions offshore rather than helping achieve a net global reduction.

      4. I’m concerned with the merits of the CPRS argument itself more than the specifics Joe’s piece. But one plausible reason why he doesn’t go in to the “lock in” objection is that plenty of Greens’ rhetoric has gone beyond that, and beyond “we think the financial cost of the scheme in this form outweigh its environmental benefits”, to the outright lie of “the CPRS was worse for the climate than the status quo of no restrictions at all.” So until they can get their story straight and take ownership of their real stance on this policy instead of spreading false slogans about it, I think journalists are within their rights not to spend limited word count trying to make head or tails of the parties’ stance at the time they killed Rudd’s proposal.

      In a sense its bygones be bygones at this point, since the Greens got their wish to negotiate this one out with the ALP and we’ll get to see the result of the compromise soon enough. But I for one would certainly feel more positive about the party if they’d retract the spin they have pumped out about this issue and say “we opposed the scheme not because it was worse for the planet than nothing - we’re sorry for our words to that effect - but because we decided that we could get a better outcome by holding out”

    • thatmosis says:

      07:01am | 06/07/11

      What happened was that people started questioning the “settled Science’ and found it wanting, in fact they found it fraudulent and wrong thats why the wheels feel off the Climate Change debate. Its only those with a vested interest that believe that man is responsible for the Climate and an excuse to raise a tax on nothing for nothing to bolster the coffers. People are not fools although this Government and the Greens/Independants wish they were and the climate will continue to do what it does no matter how much money is gouged out of business or the people in the name of Climate Change science. Want to save the world as we know it, get rid of Jooliar and the Grens and Independants.

    • Sherlock says:

      09:18am | 06/07/11

      as the author aid there are people throwing up websites preaching whackjob theories.

      Theories like:  permanent drought, cities running out of water, and stuff like that. I wonder what ever happend to this guy? You know the one? The one who made all the outlandish predictions designed to scare the pants of everyone.

      He the government appointed Climate Change Commissioner on a salary of $180,00 for a couple of days work a week you say? That can’t be right.

      What about the guys that predicted things like the death of the reef, an ice free Arctic, more hurricanes, massive increases in sea levels, the extinction of Polar bears even?

      What? They’re all holding positions in universities? they’re not? You can’t be serious!!

    • Against the Man says:

      07:01am | 06/07/11

      HeHeHeHe the people are learning the true colours of this ALP/Greens alliance. Except those selective quoting morons who think this government and their half arse policies will give our children a better future. smile

      At the end of the day the anti-Gilltard momentum is in full swing, can’t wait for the next poll results. Can she smash her own record low? Yes, She Can!

    • DJ says:

      08:45am | 06/07/11

      God I wish I had a time machine so I can fast forward to the next poll. Then Tony will rescind this ridiculous Tax bill which the Greens will oppose thus setting up a double dissolution trigger. I JUST CAN’T WAIT !!!!

    • fairsfair says:

      08:57am | 06/07/11

      I heard on the news this morning that both CH9 and CH7 have declined to broadcast the PM’s address to the nation re the Carbon Price on Sunday night.

      Do you know anything about that AtM? It sounds a bit out of character for them, so I’d love to know why they have chosen to do so.

    • Jeremy says:

      09:22am | 06/07/11

      What makes you so confident that a double dissolution would destroy the Greens, DJ?

      They got 13% of the vote in the Senate last time and have 11% of the seats. Their vote has remained steady, even in the face of relentless smears from the Murdoch press.

      Why wouldn’t they just win back their seats? Sure, you wouldn’t vote for them, but you didn’t last time either.

    • Rover of North Cooma says:

      09:42am | 06/07/11

      DJ, if Tony Abbott rescinds the carbon tax, how will he pay for the $13 billion in uncosted promises that he’s made so far?

    • Bev says:

      09:51am | 06/07/11

      @fairsfair

      A Seven source said the network would not provide airtime for what it regarded as a party-political announcement.
      “What does she need an address for the nation for? She’s not sending anyone to war. It’s a political announcement.”
      Nine Network journalist Ben Fordham tweeted earlier: “Channel 9 and Channel 7 have both said no to PM - because they don’t want to give politicians a free kick without questions.”
      A Channel Ten source confirmed that network had also received the request. It is unclear yet if it will accept.


      A Seven source said the network would not provide airtime for what it regarded as a party-political announcement.

      “What does she need an address for the nation for? She’s not sending anyone to war. It’s a political announcement.”

      Nine Network journalist Ben Fordham tweeted earlier: “Channel 9 and Channel 7 have both said no to PM - because they don’t want to give politicians a free kick without questions.”

      A Channel Ten source confirmed that network had also received the request. It is unclear yet if it will accept.

    • Dave Charlesworth says:

      10:09am | 06/07/11

      @ Rover..

      DJ, if Tony Abbott rescinds the carbon tax, how will he pay for the $13 billion in uncosted promises that he’s made so far?

      Why should that bother anyone? It’s never stopped the Labour party!!

    • Erick says:

      11:09am | 06/07/11

      @Jeremy - If there is a double dissolution with the current polling, the Greens might retain all their seats, but they would lose all their power.

      This is because the Labor Party would lose so many seats that the Coalition would have an absolute majority in both houses. If the Brown/Gillard government continues doing as it has done, this is a very real possibility.

    • Against the Man says:

      12:40pm | 06/07/11

      Yup, fairsfairs, saw the ABC thing this morning about the major news networks not wanting to cover the Sunday announcement, the cynic in me says it is because they know no one is interested or cares because this carbon tax is a very unwanted tax but in all reality I don’t know the details.

    • BobM says:

      01:04pm | 06/07/11

      Channel 7 and channel 9 know that nobody will watch the droning redhead and so they would lose their audience. Can’t blame them really - only the deadhead diehard Labor loving Lefties will bother watching it on the ABC. Preaching to the converted - I’d rather watch paint dry than watch Juliar.

    • RyaN says:

      02:14pm | 06/07/11

      @fairsfair: apparently she wanted a fair amount of time to sell her carbon tax to the people. Fact is that she wanted free advertising time by claiming it was an announcement in the national interest. Clearly she learned her tactics from her communist masters and clearly Channel 7 and Channel 9 are not going to give her free advertising time. She will probably do what she did to Sky News recently since she has a major hatred for anything democratic like News Limited for instance.

    • Rocksteady says:

      07:13am | 06/07/11

      Completely agree.
      In 2007 anyone who voted Liberal, National, Labor and green voted for a price on carbon. Not sure of the exact number (~95%?) but it’s a mandate in anyone’s book.
      The ETS was actually an excellent policy response by Howard to all the criticism he copped for not signing the Kyoto protocol. Had Howard won in 2007 we would have an ETS today.
      In a democratic society, the game of politics is all about compromise.
      Green’s lost the game and with it the season.

    • MarK says:

      08:14am | 06/07/11

      “Had Howard won in 2007 we would have an ETS today. “

      That is true. He actually did what he said. Compare, contrast and weep.

    • L. says:

      08:18am | 06/07/11

      “In 2007 anyone who voted Liberal, National, Labor and green voted for a price on carbon”

      Umm…no. I voted Green in the senate becuase they were the only party that expressly come out against Labor’s Internet Filter.

      I took a gamble on the carbon tax, and it looks like I lost.

    • While we're crystal ball gazing says:

      09:03am | 06/07/11

      “Had Howard won in 2007 we would have an ETS today. “

      Nah, Howard would have been knifed in the back by Minchin’s black riders and died a horrible political death. 
      We would have been driven to the right by the Tour D Force that is Kevin Andrews bike riding style and a disgusted Australia would have elected Kevin Rudd in 2010 to save us from descending further into the fascism that is the Right’s birthmark.

    • Nafe says:

      09:17am | 06/07/11

      You do realise there was an election in 2010 where Liberal and Labor voted for NO CARBON TAX. Being a newer election, this superseeds the previous one. The only party which went to the election with a carbon tax policy was the greens with 14% of the vote. So 86% of the nation voted for no carbon tax. , This is a mandate in anyones book.

    • Rocksteady says:

      10:11am | 06/07/11

      “While we’re crystal ball gazing says: Nah”

      Mate, in case you don’t follow politics much, when parties go to an election they do actually try to follow through with their policies.
      Howard invented the ETS and if he won the election would have put it through parliament.
      If a party reneges on an election promise the opposition will rip them apart at the next election. You just assume Howard would get knifed in the back after winning 5 elections???
      I stand by my statement.

    • Markus says:

      11:49am | 06/07/11

      My condolences L, I almost resorted to the same thing.

      I remember doing the news.com vote-a-matic before the election, only to be advised that the party that best represented my views on major issues was a Donkey Vote. That didn’t inspire a whole lot of confidence from the onset.

    • Anubis says:

      04:06pm | 06/07/11

      @ Rocksteady - the election of 2010 negated any supposed mandate that was given in 2007. Labor went to election with “There will be no Carbon Tax under a Government I lead” still ringing in their ears. Abbot was “the science is definitely not settled”.

      The only ones who went to election with a Carbon Tax policy were the Greens and they were insufficient to form Government and DO NOT have a majority in the House of Representatives to put forward a Bill for this.

      14% (the Green vote) does not a mandate make. 86%, by not voting for the Greens, are the majority -so by your logic there is a mandate for “There will be no Carbon Tax under a Government I lead”

    • jb says:

      07:18am | 06/07/11

      More stupider is the message that petrol is not a pollutant!
      I thought one of the main messages was get out of the car and onto public transport. Bit hard when the likely result is that public transport is about to get more expensive.
      Wouldn’t it been smarterer to tax the petrol but put all that money into subsidizing public transport?
      Ahhh those greens funny lot…

    • Mitchell says:

      08:14am | 06/07/11

      That’s it, people who do the right thing and use electric trains will now pay more while drivers won’t pay a cent, if you drive for an hour into work everyday you might think you got a good deal but you are fooling yourself.

      Because of the change in price difference, many more people are going to stop using trains and start driving into work on our already congested roads. For the 6 cents/litre you saved on the carbon tax you gained another 20 mins on your drive to work. Still think it’s a good deal?

    • Michael says:

      09:10am | 06/07/11

      Yep, not sitting next to other people in the morning, not everybody’s best time of the day…winning! smile

      listening to the news/music i want instead of the two competing ipods on either side of me…winning! smile

      Not having to compromise so as to accomodate young people with their whatever looks and eye rolls…Winning! smile

      Knowing my generation will all be gone before these kids fry or drown with climate change…Winning! smile

      nah, just stirring. It’s all a matter of your point of view…from where i stand smile lol

    • Red Biro says:

      09:31am | 06/07/11

      Mitchell
      You have to excuse jb.
      He blindly follows the leaders voice on these issues.
      He believes in AGW and wants a carbon tax, but wait, then he doesn’t want a carbon tax and doesn’t believe in AGW.
      Then he believes in AGW but doesn’t want a carbon tax because it will hurt poor ordinary conservatives.
      Now he wants to tax conservative voters an ever increasing amount of money (how much he won’t tell us) through an un-costed direct action to give polluter mates fistfuls of dollars in the hope that they might spend it wisely and put some in their kids trust funds.
      Now he is crying out because the Labor policy (which hasn’t been released yet) apparently doesn’t hurt ordinary conservatives enough.

      This disease is called (blindly) follow the leader. Follow even if it means a remarkable series of back-flips worthy of an Olympic performance over the shifting sands of a few years.

      How much easier is it to just say NO?
      NO is a very good chant that can be used at all sorts of populist occasions and even most conservatives can remember how to spell it when the need arises. Those that can’t have like minded people write it on the back of their hand with a red biro and if it is required work really hard at sounding it out.

    • jb says:

      10:52am | 06/07/11

      Red Biro, pretty sure you have me confused with someone else, I have consistently said we need to treat our planet with more respect, all living things must have compassion for all living things.
      I have never said I support or do not support either direct action or a carbon tax, what I have said though is that before we start throwing even more money that the county does not have around we should wait until the world and the Australian economies are back on track and we can all actually afford to do something that will make a difference, in the mean time educate the population on how to treat the planet with more respect similar to how we all dealt with water usage during the long droughts.
      We have all lean’t how to conserve water and most of us think about what rubbish bin we should put our recyclables.
      I unlike you mr correction believe in the intelligence of Australians and the condescending crap that just dripped onto your keyboard is typical of people like you who have their head in the sand and wander blindly through the Brown valley of scaremongering. The only ones purporting a ‘Sky is Falling’ motion here are the greens and gillard who have utter discontent for the average australian to be able to comprehend that BS is BS.
      EVERYONE should pay this tax if they don’t then there is NO incentive to change our ways.
      Not taxing petrol and offering huge handouts to coal companies is sending a message that this new tax has a hidden agenda and it has NOTHING to do with saving the planet…

    • jb says:

      11:55am | 06/07/11

      So with the coal mines getting a bunch of compensation doesn’t that equate to direct action.
      Does that now mean gillard and brown believe the plan should be a hybrid of the Labor coalition and the liberal coalition?
      Or as Bobby Brown calls it the Labor/Greens COALition
      The way I figure it that would mean cross breading the carbon tax with direct action so that would be a Direct Tax, oh yeah thats what we are getting,
      A Direct Tax…

    • Troy says:

      07:20am | 06/07/11

      Gillard and her supporters keep telling us that it’s going to take the long haul and the hard sell of the carbon tax to improve her standing. I would say no matter how hard she sells her carbon tax, no matter if it’s a good idea or not, being in Coalition with the Greens is her problem now. The Greens are extremely unpopular in the electorate and joining forces with the Gillard Government makes Gillards attempt at changing her polling impossible. The electorate seem to be totally over the minnority Government, especially now the Greens have such influence on policy. Adding to that the Independents seem to back anything this Government does, good or bad. No selling of her carbon tax is going to help. It’s only going to highlite the fact she is in bed with Bob Brown and the Greens. I also think the electorate are sick to death of the regional Independents having so much say and influence on Gillard as well.
      Gillard can sell as hard as she likes, she can march around the country for months talking about her and the Greens carbon tax but it won’t help only hinder and anger people further.

    • Kelly G says:

      09:35am | 06/07/11

      It is simple: The original carbon tax plan is not the same as what we see unfolding with all the sub-sidies and fuel exemption and reduced diversertion of funding into alternative energy research/development. There is also no combined plan with the other major industrialised nations. Therefore this plan is an epic FAIL. I believe only ALP hacks like our fantastic Mr ‘Multiple Posting and I follow Liberal Leaders on Twitter’ Seano seem to be championing this lost cause.

      I’ve seen your recent handy work Seano, very sad and your pro-carbon tax arguement yesterday was very skewed. Did you ever ask yourself why the ALP haven’t been throwing those reports around in defense of their case?

    • B J of Syd says:

      11:04am | 06/07/11

      Also an additional problem for Julia Gillard is that she has lost credability because of her lies and even if she imparts “pearls of wisdom and truth” about the carbon tax she is “talking to the hand”.  We know she will say anything and lie through her teeth to get her way.  If the Greens and the rural independents think the angst is pointed at Julia alone they are in for a rude shock.  Gillard and Swan are so bad I almost feel sorry for them but Brown & Co., Oakeshott and Windsor are loathesome and I will not forget their desire to destroy this wonderful country with their delusional, self centred politics.

    • Seano says:

      01:54pm | 06/07/11

      So your best criticism of the Carbon tax Kelly, besides some childish personal digs amounts to that some of the detail has changed.

      Convincing.

    • melle says:

      02:24pm | 06/07/11

      @Seano,  You mention “convincing” -  I’m wondering what you think of Tim Flannery’s complete and utter failure to convince the people.

    • melle says:

      03:06pm | 06/07/11

      @Seano,  Well, thanks for that!  Don’t go much on the coarse stuff.  Anyhow anyhoo…. disappointed you didn’t give me your thoughts on Tim Flannery’s success/failure, as Climate Commissioner.

    • Seano says:

      03:31pm | 06/07/11

      @melle - I don’t really have an opinion on Flannery. When it comes to climate change I’d rather listen to climate scientists.

      Sorry about the coarse stuff, forgot that was in there.

    • melle says:

      03:51pm | 06/07/11

      @Seano,  Fair enough.  What about the Bolta?  He looks a bit gorgeous as Robin.  Do you think??

    • Seano says:

      04:08pm | 06/07/11

      I think Bolt isn’t much of a climate change scientist.

    • Anubis says:

      04:12pm | 06/07/11

      @ Seano Here’s what the scientists are saying

      From the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Monday (Mann, Stock, Kaufmann,Kauppi) - Given the widely noted increase in the warming effects of rising greenhouse gas concentrations, it has been unclear why global surface temperatures did NOT rise between 1998 and 2008. Furthermore, Global Surface temperature declined 0.2C between 2005 and 2008. This seeming disconnect may be one reason why the public is increasingly sceptical about anthropogenic climate change.”

      There you are, straight from the scientists who “believe”. The world has not warmed since 1998. And note - they to have dumped the term Global Warming and changed it to climate change.

      In case you are not aware Michael Mann, who is mentioned above, is a prominent member of the UN scientific panel whose landmark 2007 report warned that climate change was unequivocal and mostly caused by humans. And here he is last Monday clearly stating that the world has not experienced warming, but has in fact cooled, since 1998.

    • MarK says:

      04:48pm | 06/07/11

      Anubis must correct you sorry. tyhe Mann of that report is not the hockey stick Penn state Mann.

      Two different Manns.

      I find it hilarious the warmists haven’t even bothered to read the report though. Goes to show the level of knowledge they have. I was hoping for better to be honest.

    • Seano says:

      05:37pm | 06/07/11

      @Anubis - I’m fairly sure I was using the term climate change as well.

      Yes they’re saying that green house gasses are affecting our climate but they don’t know yet know why there was a slight decline in warming during that 10 year period.

      As a layman I’d guess that it would be incredibily rare for a physical phenomena to go up in a straight line over time.

    • Col. of blackburn says:

      07:22am | 06/07/11

      Mr Hildebrand

      ...The flat earth faction?

      “First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you, then you win!” Mohandas K Ghandi

      BTW Joe, did you ever think that the reason that widespread support evaporated was because all the doomsday scenarios that were going to destroy the earth in the next six months never eventuated?

    • Maj. Gen of burn-it-all says:

      09:55am | 06/07/11

      The real reason that support evaporated was because conservatives everywhere put life on hold got a climate science degree, reviewed 1000’s of data sets and came to the conclusion that a price on carbon might cost something so stuff that.
      “First they ignore the evidence, then they mock you, then they fight you, then you win!: MaHat MaCoat

    • fairsfair says:

      05:05pm | 06/07/11

      Congrats Maj. Gen - your entire post falls into the “mock” stage. I’m looking forward to the fight you chump.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      07:31am | 06/07/11

      So Hildebrand is already acknowledging that his government has lost the next election, and it’s all the fault of those dastardly Greens.  No mention, of course, that Kevin Rudd refused point blank to negotiate anything at all about the proposed ETS with the Greens, who had legitimate concerns about the adequacy of the proposed emissions targets and exemptions.

      Hildebrand’s party may well have set up defeat at the next election by their next blunder - having heard from a focus group that they didn’t want to pay any more taxes, Gillard announced that there would never be a carbon tax in a government led by her.  Once able to form a government with Greens’ support, she then dithered about for 6 months before changing her position, thus earning her the unfortunate, but technically correct sobriquet of “Juliar”.  Having done that, she then leaves Abbott and the MSM an information vacuum which they’ve been only too happy to fill with lies, distortions and exaggerations designed to delay the inevitable.

      Probably too late to save themselves, the ALP belatedly decided to work with the Greens in order to negotiate a bill that has some hope of getting through Parliament - and guess what?  They found the Greens only too willing to compromise and negotiate, as Rudd likely would have 2 years ago, had he not been so stupidly arrogant.

      If Hildebrand thinks that this kind of sneering, disingenuous attempt to shift responsibility for his own party’s schizophrenic blundering over AGW is going to win back voters, I think he’s got a few more tactical lessons to learn.  When I read this kind of quite vicious nonsense from a Labor minister, I find myself thinking that the ALP might be better off back in Opposition - if only to have some ‘quiet time’ to sift through the debris of a formerly great political party in order to find something good as the basis of reinventing themselves.

    • nihonin says:

      08:25am | 06/07/11

      Agree totally with your comments CJ Morgan, shame to see a once great party go down and the party and its supporters still point the finger at everyone else but themselves for their problems.

      I’m sure the true Labor supporters of old would be rolling in their graves at what has become of Labor over the last few years.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      07:57pm | 06/07/11

      labor was never a great party, its core ideology has been flawed since day 1. It has been a disaster where ever it has been tried. Reality is finally catching up with the left.

      Any policy that goes against the grain of reality might fool the voters in the short term, but has no chance in the long term. Egalitarian ideals where always stillborn, that’s just facing up to reality.

      It is not possible to have a free society and egalitarian ideals, they are mutually exclusive, hence all left policies invariably must be authoritarian and in the extreme pure fascism.

    • atthepub says:

      07:39am | 06/07/11

      Read Dennis article, give power back to the people instead of believing and acting upon every delicious little lie fed to you by our seriously inept governmental leaders.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      07:41am | 06/07/11

      I find this article to be just another attempt at being ‘snappy’ and ‘humorous by misrepresenting reality.

      Your characterisation of the ACC sceptics scepticism is like your characterisation of the Greens position on the original CPRS- full of it.

      I support the CO2 pricing and many other of the Greens policies. However, the original CPRS was negotiated between the Labor and Liberal parties- the Greens were excluded.

      Many “experts” advised that the CPRS would fail (structurally- meaning forever) to be effective because it over compensated polluters. So they knocked it back and the Liberals changed their ACC policy and leadership.

      In the end, for most people, belief in ACC IS an act of faith. It is something (if true) that can’t be experienced directly by the individual because of the relative time-scales. The question that confronts all of us is, who do you have FAITH in to be telling it as it is?

    • RichaRD says:

      06:41pm | 06/07/11

      Well that’s funny, because the current package is just a rehash of the CPRS, which means that is going to fail (structurally- meaning forever) too. Hoowuddathunkit? Its not like this government hasn’t got form…

    • skizziks says:

      07:43am | 06/07/11

      So you are one of those hand wringing warmists, Joe are you?

    • Matt says:

      07:55am | 06/07/11

      Three questions:

      1) By how much has the planet warmed over the last 10 years?

      2) Why is nuclear power never even mentioned or debated as part of the solution in this country to the apparent scourge that is AGW?

      3) By how much will this carbon tax reduce the rise in the ocean levels/rise in temperatures by 2070 (which Gillard has said will be catastrophic is no action is taken)?

      I also find it offensive that you label anyone who does not think an ETS or carbon tax will save the planet as a “flat earther”. People can still understand that climate change is a real thing without subscribing to a carbon tax you know. Its the biggest mistake you people consistently make in your haste to mock people who choose to question the “settled science”.

      Just one other point, I am continually surprised that the Opposition is derided as trotting out scare campaigns about the tax, when the Prime Minister is threatening that without it, temps will rise by 2.2 - 5 degrees, and oceans will rise by up to a metre by the end of the century. Can anyone please explain in what dimension that makes sense?

    • L. says:

      08:43am | 06/07/11

      “when the Prime Minister is threatening that without it, temps will rise by 2.2 - 5 degrees, and oceans will rise by up to a metre by the end of the century. Can anyone please explain in what dimension that makes sense? “

      In the same demension that Bob Brown specifically blames the Australian coal industry for Brisbane’s 2011 floods..

      In the same demension that extreme Greens blame Japan’s earth quake on AGW

      In the same demension that the US’s yearly tornado’s are blamed in AGW.

      etc etc etc

    • undertow says:

      09:12am | 06/07/11

      L.
      I read the entire link you posted and found an explanation. But stick with your cherry picked quote from the opening sentence of the article as it suits your purpose well and you wouldn’t want to undermine your argument.

    • Matt says:

      10:46am | 06/07/11

      What was the explanation, undertow? Why hasn’t this been a factor previously? Why did the models not take these explanations into account? How come this was not expected if the science is settled?

      I see you’ve also ignored my other questions. So much for cherry picking?

    • undertow says:

      12:38pm | 06/07/11

      Matt, I made no reference to your questions, loaded as they were for confirmation bias. My point was that L. provided a link and used a quote from it to make a point, while information in the linked article contradicted her point. Her point was made using the opening sentence of the article and ignored the content.

    • Matt says:

      01:19pm | 06/07/11

      Because you cannot answer them then? I see.

    • PTom says:

      01:25pm | 06/07/11

      1) Actual the last 10 years is 2010 to 2000
      http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/change/global/timeseries.cgi
      As you can see from BOM that the average temp has gone up since 2000.
      By my calculation is about half a degrees over the last 10 years.

      2) cost to much and waste for thousand of years

      3) That depends on what action we take

    • Willie Mac says:

      02:45pm | 06/07/11

      1. Not much, but there are several reasons for this. It remains to be seen whether these factors will be able to cool the planet much in the coming decades as global warming accelerates. Given that the hypothesis is based on modelling from several decades, it does not debunk it.

      Link: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2011/07/why-global-temperatures-held-s.html

      2. Because the ordinary Aussie doesn’t like nuclear power, and so it’s not a vote-winning strategy for any political party. Personally I don’t mind the prospect of living near a nuclear plant (provided my district is not prone to natural disasters) given its good safety record in the West (one near-disaster in 50 years) and lack of air pollution, but it’s a hard sell to most people here.

      3. Don’t have any modelling to link to due to the government’s incompetence, but it will have an effect. The US National Academy of Sciences believes that the sea level could rise by up to 2m by 2100.

      Link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704691304575254691763608402.html

      The Academy estimates that a suitable target to prevent large sea level increases is a 25% (run the numbers from the above article) cut in US annual emissions for the next few decades. America has already stated they will not cut emissions unless China does, whereas China has made similar statements about the OECD countries (including Australia). Thus everyone is going to have to cut emissions, not just the big hitters. The only fair way to price carbon globally is to have everyone emitting the same amount per capita (otherwise someone will complain, leading to the dismantling of the whole agreement), so we’d also have to cut by 25% given that our emissions per capita are very similar to the US. Again, a lack of modelling prevents me from answering whether a carbon tax would accomplish that, but given that Finland’s carbon tax of $25 per tonne brought their emissions under control within 15 years, the signs are encouraging.

      Link: http://www.energy-enviro.fi/index.php?PAGE=570&NODE_ID=570&LANG=1

      Despite the Gillard government’s failure to properly explain their scheme, the idea of a carbon tax predates them by many years, and is regarded by economists as the most efficient way to cut emissions. I don’t like Gillard at all, but I like the alternative even less.

    • undertow says:

      02:59pm | 06/07/11

      Well, I tried to answer your questions, but I used the term “Piers Boltbrechston mind hive” in an answer so I think my post disappeared into the ether.

    • undertow says:

      03:30pm | 06/07/11

      For the sake of posterity, I’ll try again.
      1) By how much has the planet warmed over the last 10 years?
      Although it has warmed almost negligibly over the last 10 years, on a longer term scale the last decade is the hottest since instrument measurements began 131 years ago. As for why it has changed little in the last 10, L.‘s link shows a report from climate scientists (cue conspiracy theories now) that indicates a dramatic rise in sulphur emissions at the start of the decade and that increased sulphur emissions have a cooling effect. Considering 2010 tied with 2005 as the warmest years on record, when 2010 also had to contend with La Niña and a relatively inactive sun, both factors which have a cooling influence on the planet, you have a record high global average in a year that should be cooler.

      2) Why is nuclear power never even mentioned or debated as part of the solution in this country to the apparent scourge that is AGW?
      I think it has been debated, but there are a whole bunch of questions that remain unanswered about nuclear energy, as it pertains to our continent in particular:
      Is it a cost effective and/or efficient way to deliver energy cheaply to a small population across such a vast land mass? How much is it going to cost to implement? What technology do we utilise?  How do guarantee public safety? And the big one… How do we deal with the waste?

      3) By how much will this carbon tax reduce the rise in the ocean levels/rise in temperatures by 2070 (which Gillard has said will be catastrophic is no action is taken)?
      I’ll try this again… Straight out of the Piers Boltbrechtson hive mind… ask someone to quantify that which is inherently unquantifiable and then deride them for failing to answer the question inadequately.

      As for your other questions, you best ask the scientists that wrote that report, but I am guessing that they will never consider the science settled which is why they have come up with this to explain its absence from previous reports. Settled science: an unfortunate term of reference probably not originating from the scientific community.

    • Super D says:

      07:56am | 06/07/11

      It’s going to be really fun watching the Greens rationalise to their irrational supporters the politically motivated carve outs.  I reckon Bob Brown and the Greens will completely undermine the environmental credentials of the scheme leaving the Coalition to point out its massive economic flaws.

    • Jack Richards says:

      07:57am | 06/07/11

      It would be hard to imagine a greater collection of buffoons and self-righteous dickheads than that ship of fools collectively known as the “Greens”. They’ve got it all: led by an aging homosexual and followed by crystal channelers, ex-Moscow and Peking-line communists, hippies, water diviners, Hare Krishnas, divine light missionaries and survivors of the Nimbin Communes who have been smoking organic dope since the Aquarius Festival in 1973.

      They’ve been searching for a new cause since the end of the Vietnam War and the death of Mao. And now they’ve found it: Global Warming! Not only that, but it has its own High Priest, Bob Brown, and a whole pantheon of Saints and Sinners.

      The truth is, none of them could organise a sausage sizzle, a chook raffle, a piss-up in a brewery or a root in a brothel. Getting them to agree on anything, other than being against everything “mainstream”, would be like trying to herd a score of cats.

      They managed to benefit from the disaffection many former ALP voters felt at the last election. There were plenty of people who detested Australia’s greatest ever deadshit, Kevin Rudd; who despised his replacement and the manner of her floating to the top of the tank; but who could not bring themselves to vote for the Mad Monk and the coalition.

      So the Greens caught that lucky wave and managed to get just enough votes to get this collection of rejects and misfits elected to the Senate.

      But they’ll go the way of the DLP, the Democrats, the Australia Party et al at the next election. They won’t be able to resist proving just how hare-brained they are and not even that dour Lurch, Bob Brown, will be able to get those feral cats running in the same direction.

      The schisms will start very soon. I’d say Christine Milne already has the shits with Brown because of the way he talked over the top of her during an interview last week. He showed that he did not trust her to say anything sensible and wanted to show everyone that he is the only true and shining star in the green heaven.

      If Julia had any sense at all, she’d call a double dissolution and get rid of the bastards. It would be better for the ALP to be in opposition than to be ruled by these cranks.

    • Q. says:

      08:09am | 06/07/11

      That’s the best summary of the Extremist Greens I’ve ever read. But Julia can’t call a double dissolution because Lurch Brown has said he won’t allow it.

    • L. says:

      08:45am | 06/07/11

      “They’ve been searching for a new cause since the end of the Vietnam War and the death of Mao. And now they’ve found it: Global Warming”

      Actually, that’s not quite right, but it isn’t too far off the mark..

      They have been searching for a new cause since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of USSR style communism.

    • Dingoh says:

      09:01am | 06/07/11

      Jack you deserve your own column.  Magic writing.

    • Bev says:

      10:06am | 06/07/11

      You forgot to mention Che.

    • stevem says:

      01:31pm | 06/07/11

      Julia can’t trigger a DD on her own. She could, however arrange it. She just needs a couple of labor pollies to be conveniently absent for the critical vote and she get her election while still being able to blame it on Abbot and his nasty negativity.

    • Lucela says:

      02:38pm | 06/07/11

      “They’ve got it all: led by an aging homosexual…” aaand that’s where I stopped reading. Any argument you may have had is automatically invalidated by the fact that you feel this is somehow a relevant point of interest.

    • Jack Richards says:

      04:42pm | 06/07/11

      @Lucela

      “automatically invalidated ” is it now?


      That’s a very telling comment. So as soon as someone says something that contravenes your bigotted biases, their views are “automatically invalidated” and you don’t bother to read any further!

      You, sir or madam, are the personification of the word “fool”. You are so self-righteous, so infallible, such a saint that you openly admit your devestating ignorance and take pride in it.

      The truth is: Bob Brown is a homosexual. Bob Brown likes other men to the extent that he openly breaches 1 Corinthians 6! Personally, I couldn’t care less whose muddy track he is lusting after; but not everyone is as broad minded as me. But the question arises: does he have more than one finger in the pie; more than one poker in the fire? Is he sniffing around the wrong tree?

      I see a definite correlation between his sexual confusion and his confusion about everything else.

      I haven’t got anything against homosexuals and neither has my old mate, Sullivan. Sullivan is not gay, but he’s certainly bonked a lot of blokes who were. So, as you can see, I’m very open minded about the whole thing.

    • Sylvie says:

      05:05pm | 06/07/11

      @Jack Richards,  Agree.  And Brown’s confusion is certainly relevant.

    • Plain Jane says:

      08:00am | 06/07/11

      Australians have woken up,  and got over their mass hysteria post Al Gore propoganda doomsday film. and gaia man Flannery predic itions of a dried up Australia, and the doomsday clap trap dished out to them, day after day. Australian`s are no longer so stoopid as to believe that a carbon tax on everything by Australians will save the world. Australia with 1.5% world emmissions,  if we turn everything off and stop breathing would make difference to world future .  The big Gillard con , slug a big Carbon tax on everything and flog ship loads of coal to China to fuel 300+ coal fired power stations in China. Nuts.

    • AnthonyG says:

      08:02am | 06/07/11

      Maybe its because some of the staunch labor people are waking up to this fraud. Everyone knows the proposed action of a carbon tax has nothing to do with the enviroment or can alter the tempurate 1 iota. its all about ripping more money off the average joe and handing some of it to the bludgers of the world. and the ETS is about making carbon credit traders rich

    • OnceWereSocialists says:

      09:02am | 06/07/11

      well said, although I think it’s officially termed “wealth redistribution”. When I was a young naive socialist my comrades and I were found of saying “after the revolution everyone will drive Rolls Royces” without actually thinking about how that would be feasible (unless you took a Trabant and re-badged it as a Rolls Royce).
      I believe the climate IS warming, but I believe factors other than humans are the greatest contributing factor (volcanoes, sun spots, natural cycle).

    • Markus says:

      11:41am | 06/07/11

      “When I was a young naive socialist my comrades and I were found of saying “after the revolution everyone will drive Rolls Royces” without actually thinking about how that would be feasible”

      Thatcher said it best, along the lines of “the problem with Socialism is that sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money”.

    • James1 says:

      01:02pm | 06/07/11

      The Soviets put it best Markus: under capitalism, man exploits man.  Under socialism, it is the other way around.

    • Gregg says:

      08:05am | 06/07/11

      Joe,
      Those Looney Greens really rubbed off on ya way too hard didn’t they and now you are wanting to offload all that shit.
      Well tough luck mate for the smell is still there.
      And so you’re a Gillard groupie are you even claiming Rudd was betrayed by the liberals when we all know the blood is with someone with blood red hair.
      As for ” is that it has managed to turn a debate over what to do about climate change into a debate over whether it is even real or not. “

      Lets bring on a real debate babe, a debate that we fully deserve to have and one you should not be afraid of, but be very very afraid of that camp you’re in.

    • iansand says:

      08:14am | 06/07/11

      Summary so far:

      In short, it is my firm belief that the sky is green and that Mount Everest is actually a rockpool near Acapulco and any scientist who says otherwise is just lying to get a government grant.

    • MarK says:

      10:36am | 06/07/11

      how do you copy paste sanderson?

      do you right click on highlighted text or are you a ctrc ctrv guy…oops how non pc of me….person?

      just wondering while i scratch my nuts

    • Badjack says:

      08:29am | 06/07/11

      Joe, if you want me to take you seriously have a shave, clean your teeth, take shower and whilst showering make sure you give your arse a good scrub.

    • DJ says:

      08:54am | 06/07/11

      LOLOLOL

    • Game Over says:

      10:06am | 06/07/11

      I suspect Badjack wants to make sure it’s clean before he kisses it.
      kiss
      fair enough.

    • maus says:

      08:29am | 06/07/11

      Do you think you could cram any more stereotypes into your article Joe? Hemp wearing, gaia loving, inner city terrace living hippies? You do a great disservice to the 1 in 5 people that voted Green at the last election who come from all walks of life and circumstance.

      As for the CPRS - Brown/Milne etc have said repeatedly that if the Govt had chosen to negotiate - nay, even talk - to them about the scheme it may have been passed. As it was, Rudd chose to do a deal with Turnbull and the deal fell over. How can this be the fault of the Greens??

    • Super D says:

      08:47am | 06/07/11

      Actually at 13% Senate vote (12% Reps) it was closer to 1 in 10 than 1 in 5.  I’m expecting a fall of at least 3% next election with the Coalition primary vote exceeding 50% in non economic basket case states.

    • Bev says:

      09:04am | 06/07/11

      1 in 5 people that voted Green at the last election who come from all walks of life and circumstance.

      So where did the other 4 come from?

    • fairsfair says:

      08:30am | 06/07/11

      I stopped reading at “flat-earth faction”.

      It is high time people grew up and started talking like adults. You think you have the solution and know all Hildebrand? Not talking like that you don’t.

    • MarK says:

      08:32am | 06/07/11

      Well Joe you have suitable climate credentials,

      1. You are a journalist with an opinion
      2. You can spell Gaia
      3. I am sure there is a third

      So since we have now proven your credentials, and here I include Tory and Ant, to speak authoritatively vis AGW let us move on to your the next important determinant in your suitability to lecture us on the merits of haveing a carbon tax, ETS, wealth transfer, wet dream of a disaster whatever you want to call it so let us examine your economic credentials

      1. You are a journalist with an opinion
      2. I have nothing here
      3. I am sure there is a third

      So unquestionably we can now see you are qualified climatologist with a keen appreciation of the need to combat what must be dangerous AGW as we have to “save the world” and the way to do this is to impose a carbon tax in Australia. That is your premise.

      Since I have only been to Professor Bumfluffs webpage of Inexactitude and listened to some “bug eyed” (and I quote the good readers of this site) “Lord” that is denied the right to speak in a hired room in this country by the defenders of democracy over at GetUp telling lies I ask you this.

      I am sure you are aware of the Keeling Curve that shows the annual concentrate of CO2 in the air and has been used as sort of a standard in the “debate” about AGW and “stuff”.

      Can you please explain to me why there has been a linear increase in CO2 in the last decade but no corresponding rise in temperature? In fact why is the temperature of the last decade flat? Can you also explain the significance of climatic models being used to predict future temperature rises not being able to model past occurrences when fed known data?

      I am merely some internet dude. I know. I apologise and am in awe of your journalistic ......ummmm (gosh I wish I was a journalist a really big cool word would appear) ....machismo and the undoubted correctness of your position which of course is settled science, except for all the unsettled part.

      Please do comment. Please by all means explain this.

      Oh and any info on how much China will ADD to its current year on year migth be handy.

      Do you also agree with the decision to exclude petrol from the ETS? Pray tell how are you saving emissions Joe? We are after all in the business of saving the planet. Sounds kind of serious.

      All the best. Waiting here in breathless anticipation.

      Oh!! An afetrthought. Can you tell me, as a journalist, have you ever seen a group of economists sign up to a market based solution to a scientific problem as being the best solution when

      1. The market based solution excludes part of market
      2. They have not even seen the final plan yet

      Thanks so much for your time you big journalist you

    • Kevin says:

      08:52am | 06/07/11

      The article isn’t about climatology or economics.
      The point of the article is that, despite the Greens stated commitment to doing something to reduce carbon emissions, they have achieved the exact opposite.  It is a critique of the Greens.

    • Dan says:

      09:49am | 06/07/11

      Did you even read the article?

      He’s not arguing climate science, he’s writing about the Greens dumping of Rudd’s ETS last year, and the following rise in arguments against climate change.

      And he’s coming from the well-accepted approach that climate change is real. I don’t think he’s out of line anywhere.

      Though Mark, I am glad you got to have your morning rant. Maybe just select an appropriate target next time.

    • Brian Taylor says:

      09:52am | 06/07/11

      well said MarK, you’re putting into words the same things I’d liked to have said, but as the real smart ones know (Joe and others) I’m not smart enough to think for myself, keep up the good work Mark

    • MarK says:

      10:25am | 06/07/11

      Dear Kevin,

      Explain this then

      “People whose previous high-watermark of achievement was presetting a VCR in the 1980s (and don’t get me wrong, that was seriously hard) are earnestly espousing their considered position that man-made global warming isn’t happening, as though such things were merely a matter of opinion.

      People whose highest qualification is a three-week HTML course at the local TAFE (again, also hard) are throwing up websites preaching whackjob theories about scientists conspiring to take over the world. (More worryingly they say it as if that would be a bad thing.)

      In short, it is my firm belief that the sky is green and that Mount Everest is actually a rockpool near Acapulco and any scientist who says otherwise is just lying to get a government grant.

      These views are increasingly being given equal weighting in the public debate. And why?”

      Thanking you in anticipation while I look at puppies and shake my head at what schools are teaching the young these days.

      Sincerely

      MarK

    • AnthonyG says:

      10:35am | 06/07/11

      Can someone give MarK a job as a journalist. Nothing gets past him.And i’m sure he wouldn’t toe the company line.

    • MarK says:

      10:48am | 06/07/11

      Dear Dan.

      Please see my reply to Kevin.

      Insert your name where appropriate.

      And learn to read comprehension please kid

      After you master the art of reading the whole thing and weeding out the fascinating and original idea from Joe that

      1. The Greens are stupid
      2. They are hypocrites
      3. They scuttled the last go at this abomination

      (gosh….who would have realised)

      there was a few digs in there at skeptics or deniers…..(insert evil laugh here)

      Until then dearest Dan .....Keep you eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel.

      PS to the other readers with a brain. I can see 2 negative responses so far. Both saying the same thing.

      Neither response however has attempted to tackle any of the questions I asked. We “all know” the science is settled. We “all know” I am a idiot etc etc.

      Why is it so hard to debunk me then? Why no answer?

      Why, if the science is settled, cannot anyone tell us how much this tax will reduce temperatures globally? It is going to stop this global disaster isn’t it?

    • MarK says:

      11:19am | 06/07/11

      Aww I am blushing Anthony thanks mate.

      But please, please don’t verbal me. I would not want to take a step down the evolutionary chain and become a journalist, let alone a chief political writer….ewwwwww.

    • Kevin says:

      11:23am | 06/07/11

      @MarK
      I suggest you read the whole article.

    • Kevin says:

      11:38am | 06/07/11

      @Mark
      “[I] shake my head at what schools are teaching the young these days.”

      I’d guess that you went to school at a time when the traditional things taught in English (eg grammar, comprehension) were put aside and instead the children were encouraged to express themselves.

    • MarK says:

      01:16pm | 06/07/11

      Kevin, dearest Kevin.

      Slow down son. It looks really bad when you post stuff 15 minutes apart and double post on a thread.

      When you angry it is easy to fire off a post then go….awwww shit…I have another really good thing to say (really dumb in truth but I am trying to help you) but I have already pressed send. When you do that second post you look desperate to get an edge, you look mad, angry and without thought.

      Basically you look a dill.

      Big deep breathe before hitting send. Make sure all your vitriol is down in the post and then hit submit.

      This will give you more e-cred which, and let us not be coy, you need here because yet again you have failed to address anything I said and are sort of looking a bit lost when the adults speak.

      Always a pleasure Kevin. Please do use the bins that are provided and hit the books Kevin, they don’t hit back.

      Hugs and kisses….waiting for a reply to any of my points from Kevin

      Love

      MarK

    • Kevin says:

      01:41pm | 06/07/11

      @MarK
      I don’t think your last post does you any credit.
      Let me explain the above article.
      It’s basic argument is that but for the political expediency of the Greens we would have some form of emissions trading scheme today.
      The lesson of the article is that the Greens are bad, so don’t vote for them.
      The article is presumably aimed at people who might consider voting Green because they believe in AGW and want to see something done ( I doubt the majority of punch readers need any convincing not to vote Greens).  As such, the author has to establish his own “green credentials” - eg by references to “flat earthers” and “whackjob theories”.  This establishes empathy with the intended readership.
      That empathy is strengthened when the potential converts see poor Joe under attack from so many conservative posters (including you).  It’s all part of the pantomime.
      Carry on.

    • MarK says:

      03:12pm | 06/07/11

      “Kevin says:

        01:41pm | 06/07/11

        @MarK”

      Oh ffs again? Dude people will talk about us. Have you got a point yet? Are you in love with me? Is it a viral e-love that goes away or total infatuation?

        ” I don’t think your last post does you any credit.”

      I don’t think any of yours have done you credit let alone this one but opinions vary. By the way it ain’t just my postings that do me no credit but you are too young to hear about all my depravities.

        “Let me explain the above article.”

      /scratch balls

      Whatever dude

      ”  It’s basic argument is that but for the political expediency of the Greens we would have some form of emissions trading scheme today.”

      Very basic sure. Nad gosh that was an eye opener that one. Really unique take. Joe might become a opinion writer one day.

      /pick nose

      ”  The lesson of the article is that the Greens are bad, so don’t vote for them.”

      “/eat green booger mmmm tasty

      So what? See above. Unoriginal point is unoriginal.

        ”  The article is presumably aimed at people who might consider voting Green because they believe in AGW and want to see something done ( I doubt the majority of punch readers need any convincing not to vote Greens).  As such, the author has to establish his own “green credentials” - eg by references to “flat earthers” and “whackjob theories”.  This establishes empathy with the intended readership.”

      So you are saying Joe mistakenly published this on The Punch because it wasn’t meant for Punch readers.

      Or you don’t know what empathy means.

      Oh by the way Joe was trying to be an elitist arsehole and funny. The arsehole bit he nailed. The funny just didn’t work.

      “That empathy is strengthened when the potential converts see poor Joe under attack from so many conservative posters (including you).  It’s all part of the pantomime.”

      But you just said Punch readers need no convincing to not vote green. So he was trying to build empathy with a class of person that doesn’t read The Punch in your view? Who is going to see our comments to feel sorry for him?

      Really Kevin you are making no sense.

      “Carry on”

      I will never fear you big numpty you.

      Here reconcile these statements because I have found repetition a great teaching aid when used for kids, dogs and progressives (in descending order of tolerance I have for the entity and my experience of their capacity for lateral thought).

      “People whose previous high-watermark of achievement was presetting a VCR in the 1980s (and don’t get me wrong, that was seriously hard) are earnestly espousing their considered position that man-made global warming isn’t happening, as though such things were merely a matter of opinion.

      People whose highest qualification is a three-week HTML course at the local TAFE (again, also hard) are throwing up websites preaching whackjob theories about scientists conspiring to take over the world. (More worryingly they say it as if that would be a bad thing.)

      In short, it is my firm belief that the sky is green and that Mount Everest is actually a rockpool near Acapulco and any scientist who says otherwise is just lying to get a government grant.

      These views are increasingly being given equal weighting in the public debate. And why?”

      I haven’t noticed the idea of censorship, name calling and shutting of debate to be a great empathy winner or argument closer.

      Do feel free to respond to any of the points I raised though. I am positively hard with anticipation.

    • Kevin says:

      04:04pm | 06/07/11

      @Mark
      “So you are saying Joe mistakenly published this on The Punch because it wasn’t meant for Punch readers.”
      Why do you assume this will only be published in the Punch?  I’ve seen similar articles in the Punch make their way to the train newspaper. 
      Also, not all readers of the Punch are conservative.

    • MarK says:

      05:55pm | 06/07/11

      Anyone else get the feeling Kevin is lost for an argument?

      Maybe he is just lonely.

    • Deepthinker says:

      08:33am | 06/07/11

      The truth always comes out in the end,  man’s contribution to climate change is primarily from all the bullshit that and other crap that the nonthinking beievers in climate change being caused exclusively by humans are expousing on us deepthinking people.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      08:35am | 06/07/11

      Strange that almost no one debates the merits of Labor’s carbon tax versus Liberal’s Direct Action plan given that both parties implicity acknowledge carbon emissions as a problem to be tackled. Unless the Liberal Party’s direct action plan is just one big lie. I bet the Liberal Party doesn’t have the balls to publicly state that AGW doesn’t exist. And that my friends, is how you have a bet both ways…..

    • stevem says:

      11:26am | 06/07/11

      The merits (or otherwise) of the Liberals proposal really doesn’t matter that much until we need to make a decision (i.e. an election). What always matters is what the government is doing. They are the ones with the immediate power. The government is the group the majority of the country believe are best placed to make policy for the good of the WHOLE country.

      The questions over the tax this time, as always:
          1) Is the tax of the correct size?
          2) Is the tax equitable?
          3) Will the spending of the revenue generated be appropriate?
          4) What are the greater effects on the economy?

      The answers appear to be:
          1) That will take years to establish as energy usage fluctuates due to heating/cooling needs and economic output. It will be further complicated by the fact that they intend changing it every year. In short: there will be no way to tell.
          2) Clearly not. there appear to be many exemptions and rebates, plus only 1000 companies will pay it directly.
          3) Gathering tax only to give it back is a very inefficient way of doing things. Rebating money based on income rather than on carbon usage defeats the purpose of the tax.
          4) There is no suggestion this has been done - indeed there has been insufficient time to have done so.

      So the plan fail on 2 counts and ignores 2 counts. All we want is efficient and effective government and, unfortunately, this plan fails dismally.

    • PTom says:

      01:02pm | 06/07/11

      It amaze me how Liberal supporter use the line.
      “What always matters is what the government is doing” which is complete Bullshite

      Any member of Parliament can submitt bills before the Parliament.

      So if the Coalition Direct Action is a better policy why don’t Abbott put it to Parliament just like any private members bills. It may even get thru.

      Until Abbott does so what ever he says on this issues is crap

    • stevem says:

      01:50pm | 06/07/11

      “Any member of Parliament can submit bills before the Parliament” What a complete misrepresentation.

      That may be the way parliamentary rules read, but modern party politics means the reality is totally different. Abbot has been constantly attempting to sway the independents - his failure to convince them earns him constant ridicule from his opponents. The Greens have Labor wrapped around their fingers and will not cross the floor in either house.
      Crossing the floor to represent your electorate rather than the party is a noble thought, but Labor are the ones that have a party rule that gets a member expelled from the party for doing so.
      I don’t like the Direct Action plan either, but Labor’s tax is the pressing issue today. Next election that will change and we get to decide what happens for the following three years.

    • insanity wins again says:

      08:52am | 06/07/11

      The change in public opinion can be attributed to the well funded propaganda campaign funded by polluters. You would be shocked at the depth of manipulation in which lobbyists are engaged. They have used a compliant media to spread doubt where there is none, implant all sorts of absurd argument in the minds of the public, they even have teams of people paid to comment on newspaper articles and the like. The ability they have to control and manipulate the more gullible members of our society is really very scary.

      The problem with the science based side of the argument is it cannot debate effectively with people that are completely irrational and are not seeking the truth, but rather to assert their agenda.

    • Dash says:

      09:29am | 06/07/11

      Complete nonsense!!!

      The reason public opinion has changed is at least the following:

      1. The ALP lied on election eve about it’s intentions
      2. The ALP has used taxpayers funds to commission reports to tell the public what it wants us to hear
      3. Making big polluters pay is a lie. People will pay on the basis of their income, not on the basis of how they pollute or their carbon footprint
      4. This is a policy of wealth redistribution. It’s Socialism dressed up as Environmentalism
      5. Whilst the ALP and greens determine who will pay and there is a part “compensation” scheme in place, this is not a free market mechinism
      6. The “multi-party committee” is in fact a two-part committee where every member is aligned to the ALP and where over 50% of the population has no representation.
      7. The government has withheld information from the public, has taken 12months, has released after parliament breaks for 5 weeks. It has not provided a credible cost benefit analysis. It has not demonstrated the impact on global average temperatures.

      I would sugget that anyone who believes global temperatures will change by a single degree under this tax is gullible.
      Anyone who believes this tax is about the environment is gullible.
      Anyone who believes that they will be adequately compensated is gullible.
      Anyone who believes this is a free market mechinism is gullible.
      Anyone who believes this will not slow our economy is gullible
      Anyone who believes this is not inflationary or job destroying is gullible.

    • Green Thumb says:

      09:42am | 06/07/11

      “they even have teams of people paid to comment on newspaper articles .” Where do I apply and how much do they pay?

    • Matt says:

      09:53am | 06/07/11

      You want to debate the facts? Then please take the time to answer these few questions for me:

      1) By how much has the planet warmed over the last 10 years?

      2) Why is nuclear power never even mentioned or debated as part of the solution in this country to the apparent scourge that is AGW?

      3) By how much will this carbon tax reduce the rise in the ocean levels/rise in temperatures by 2070 (which Gillard has said will be catastrophic is no action is taken)?

      Rational answers only, please.

    • Anubis says:

      10:18am | 06/07/11

      My god - talk about unfounded conspiracy theorists. You need help my boy, before the little green men come and start their anal probing on you (BTW: Does anyone know why aliens are so renowned for anal probing? Just what is it they are hoping to find there?)

    • Tom says:

      10:59am | 06/07/11

      ... “well funded propaganda campaign funded by polluters”? The polluters should have saved their money. People had already woken up to the scam.

      There never was a question that Labor couldn’t answer with a tax. Come to think of it, ... who needs a question?

    • Elphaba says:

      11:00am | 06/07/11

      I’m with Green Thumb. I do this for fun.  If I can get paid for it, I’d blog all friggin’ day and work from home…

    • BMJ says:

      09:00am | 06/07/11

      People were happy to believe man made climate change was real and were keen to do something about it until they found out there are costs involved. This is where it all falls apart. The bills in the mail are more important than something that will happen years from now. Change is too hard for the majority.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:06am | 06/07/11

      This is disappointing.  I don’t see why all questioners of the warmist religion need to be tarred with such a negative brush.

      The Green on the other hand - yes, they are bastards.

      Besides, with petrol now exempt from price rises in the carbon tax, I think we should all be wondering why our benevolent government doesn’t see petrol emissions as an environmental problem…

    • Bev says:

      10:48am | 06/07/11

      says:09:06am | 06/07/11

      This is disappointing.  I don’t see why all questioners of the warmist religion need to be tarred with such a negative brush.
      People get their backup when they are called names and their questions are fobbedoff.

      Besides, with petrol now exempt from price rises in the carbon tax,

      Well since Labour cannot give a straight answer to the question of will diesel and LPG be taxed? Diesel is a real problem not only do many 4 wheel drives operate on diesel but we are now seeing more efficient, less polluting small cars. Trucks also in many cases fill up at the same places which cars do using the same pumps. Since business is not to be compensated how do you differentiate? There would have to be some sort of mechanism (which costs) without having widespread cheating.  I suspect it’s one of those too hard questions that has yet to be answered.

    • Brian Taylor says:

      09:08am | 06/07/11

      flat-earth faction .... joey boy why do you have to try to put down people who are not willing to pay yet another tax that will don’t nothing at all about climate change?
      nothing that has been written by you or other wankers like you has changed my mind that this tax is nothing but a rip off.
      sure, it wouldn’t hurt to do something about the mess that is caused by the big companies but why on earth should we the tax payers fork out yet more money for the evil greens and evil they are.
      why not get on your high horse about councils pumping human waste out to sea, surely that’d be something you and the greens would agree need fixing?
      CO2 is needed by plants and everything green on this earth, and how do you really expect to stop humans from breathing out CO2.
      stop females from having babies.
      that idea is as silly as trying to fix the climate bu wacking a huge tax on us.

    • Your name:Frank says:

      09:09am | 06/07/11

      Hey Joe, were all your buddies now? It seems to me that the ‘flat earthers’ are giving you a beating and all your mates are letting you cope it because you deserve it after making such and arse of yourself by writing this crap. Even your Editor hung you out to dry, Idiot!

    • Bob says:

      09:10am | 06/07/11

      A tax on carbon is just another way for the Govt to collect revenue. Just as we now pay for water, pay for toll roads. You will have the nay sayers and the Yas - none of which will get in the way of the Govt decision. If you say ya you will be applauded as a forward thinking caring person, if you say na you will be branded as a self serving so and so. Makes sense - no it does not have to - it is politics.

    • Dash says:

      09:18am | 06/07/11

      Here are some basic facts about this tax:

      1. This policy is all about wealth redistribution.
      2. It’s not about the environment.
      3. It’s going to make middle and high income Australia pay.
      4. It will slow the economy.
      5. It will be inflationary and it will increase living expenses for all Australians.
      6. It will not be set high enough to impact behaviour
      7. It will not change the global temperature by a single degree
      8. Any compensation will only be part compensation since the government will only hand 50% of collections back to families.
      9. The fact that they are desciminating on the basis of income, means this is not about making polluters pay or about a free market mechinism.
      10. The government has not produced credible numbers about the climate impact of this tax at all. No cost benefit analysis has been presented.
      11. It has been brought in on the back of an election eve lie.
      12. The “Multi-party committee” is actually a Two-party committee and over 50% of the population has nil representation at that committee
      13. The government will announce the detail once it’s already stitched up support to pass the legislation and when parliament is closed down for a five week period. What are the details of the deals done with the independants?

      That’s the reality of what is going on. You can shove all of your nonsense about this being environmental and all your nonsese about big polluters paying and market mechinisms. That is a load of ALP and green bullshit!

      Lets call this for what it is. This is Socialism dressed up as environmentalism. If you are in middle and high income Australia, you will pay the price. You will have your standard of living reduced. And that will happen because of what you earn, not because of your carbon footprint or how you pollute.

      The government is just about to blitz us with propaganda. It’s the media’s responsibility to cut through that and tell the people the truth.

    • Jade says:

      09:51am | 06/07/11

      You just need to keep posting this everywhere Dash, maybe it might drill it into some people’s thick heads what this tax is really about.

    • John Smythe says:

      10:12am | 06/07/11

      ...and nothing in there about protecting existing forests from further logging or destruction for mining purposes….or planting of more trees to help counterbalance (even in a little way) the growing CO2 levels…....

      oh wells….nice piece there Dash (and the poem too!)

    • Elphaba says:

      10:58am | 06/07/11

      @Dash, I love how you can keep posting this.  The prospect of debating this for the next few years is diminishing my will to live.

      Keep fighting the good fight.  I’m going to need your strength! wink

    • Dash says:

      11:17am | 06/07/11

      @Jade - To me is seems completely obvious what is going on. All the debate is about the environment , carbon dioxide, and climate change. Who believes it and who doesn’t. But the reality of what’s being delivered and the way it’s delivered is not about that at all. The debate is so off the mark it’s not funny.

      As far as I’m concerned the Greens and the ALP are playing class wars here. And it’s Socialist policy. It’s the government interveneing in the operation of our free market. Sending incorrect signals to the market. Damaging many people’s living standards just so they can redistribute wealth.

      And that shouldn’t suprise people when you consider the Socialist background of Gillard and the Greens. And if that’s what people want, if people voted for social reengineering OK. But please dont try to make out that the policy is about the environment or that it’s a free market mechinism.

      There would not be a single economic Liberal who would believe for one second that this is a free market mechinism.

      What we have is a tax grab and a reallocation of wealth from those who are creating the wealth and paying taxes to those destroying wealth and paying little if any tax. Oh, and a redistribution to independant seats as well in order to ensure support. That is Socialism no matter how you cut it. People will pay on the basis of their income not on the basis of their carbon footprint. And that sends completely the wrong message to the market if you want to change Co2 behaviour. And it also clearly demonstrates that the claim of “Making the big polluters pay” is nothing more than a propaganda lie.

      I fail to believe how anyone can think otherwise. All this crap about the world ending and doing something for our grandchildren when we continue to sell coal in increasing quantities to the Chinese is so stupid and ill-informed it’s rediculous!

      I remind people that page 50 of the Productivity Commission’s report, Carbon Emission Policies in Key Economies, says, “no country currently imposes an economy-wide tax on greenhouse gas emissions or has in place an economy-wide ETS”. On that point - Australia goes it alone. And that’s from a report commissioned by the government using taxpayers money.

      The government is just about to bombard us with propaganda. It will tell us it’s doing this for our future and our children and making the big polluters pay. What a load of crap! The media has an obligation not to aid and assist the untruth. That would make them just as culpable to the fraud. Lets tell it as it is. If people want and accept socialist wealth redistribution OK. But don’t give us all the feel good environmental bullshit when reality is completely removed from the story.

      As an economic liberal who believes in the operation of the free market, people rights and liberty to work for a better future, I find the whole damn thing a disgraceful Socialist piece of nonsense.

      And btw, Gillard did the mother of all ETS backflips. Told Rudd to drop it, removed him for it, and now tells us she’s always supported it.

    • John Smythe says:

      11:29am | 06/07/11

      Strange how sanderson doesn’t attack you on this Dash. Guess he’s lost his bark now MarK is back smile

      Until the government actually addresses the problem, instead of trying to force impose something that doesn’t immediately address it, I’m not interested.

      Very well written mate.

    • Rebellion says:

      11:32am | 06/07/11

      Dash, its OK mate, don’t you see?  Once the plant food tax gets up to the Greens preferred $100 per tonne, then there won’t BE any more middle and high income earners so then everybody gets a refund and the pie gets spread around to everybody and we are all so happy to have somebody else do our thinking for us.

    • Dash says:

      12:27pm | 06/07/11

      @Elphaba, thanks. I am very frustrated about this whole debate as if you couldn’t tell!

      I think people should be able to get on with working for a better life for themselves and for their families without being punished for it. This government has continued to punish the people paying the lions share of tax. The carbon tax is really a fraud and I think the whole process is disgraceful. The Greens and the ALP have this tall poppy syndrome where they punish people who are successful. I don’t understand it.

      I don’t understand why my standard of living should be reduced just because of my income. If you want to tax the way I pollute fine. But why take from me and give money to people who have a bigger carbon footprint , on the basis of income? And then lie to people that the tax is about making big polluters pay.

      And the media just seem to swallow the propaganda and don’t report the truth.

      I’ve never been politically active in my life, but I am so bloody angry about this policy, the way it has been inflicted upon us and the impact it will have on our country and the freedom and liberty afforded to our citizens.

    • Shifter says:

      01:03pm | 06/07/11

      @Dash - call me a skeptic on your summary, which sounds totally plausible, but I don’t see the evidence of this. I’m not intending on attacking but suggesting you could make your point stronger with appropriate quotation.

      That said points 5, 10 and 12 are a given. That’s how this government operates. They do not think about the impact, just what seems like a good idea at the time.

      The simple point is that much like the rest of the Australian taxation system the proposed tax it is not simple, it is not fair. If it was it would have a simple rule, much like in many sports where if the ball fully crosses the boundary line it is deemed out of play.

      Here’s an interesting thought. If the government is keen to price carbon dioxide emissions, how are they going to measure it? It’s going to be an estimate.

    • Elphaba says:

      02:02pm | 06/07/11

      @Dash, absolutely, I get it.  I’ve always had a fascination with politics, but never at such a partisan level.  And I think the carbon tax motivations are clear - well, I think they were clear before, but with the latest petrol debacle, it’s clear that one of the biggest emission problems is going to be subsidised, while the price of everything else goes up.

      If people like Nossy - Nossy!  can look at the exclusion of petrol and say ‘I smell a rat’ - then anything is possible.

      It’s an absolute disgrace.  If they’re going to bring it in, and we’re all going to wear it, then at least make it look like it’s targeting emissions, and not hip pockets.

    • michael j says:

      09:23am | 06/07/11

      Yeah well according to the latest GPS at the local dick smith store the sea level has to riae 8 mts before i can see the ocean ,let alone have water front property
      so i don’t see any problem if there is a problem,if that sounds like the olde fu-k up jack im allright syndrome , well yes it is ,,,

    • Ren says:

      09:25am | 06/07/11

      I am still not convinced that man made climate change is correct. Governments seem pretty low on facts currently and coruption is running wild whilst people try to capitilize on global warming.

      Is the planet getting effected by humans impact on the enviorment? No doubt.

      Is it Carbon that spells doom for us? I am not convinced.

      Should we be looking after the planet anyway? Hell yes.

      We dont contribute to world carbon a great deal as we all know. This tax is going to reduce our world contribution by a minute amount.

      Now before we get all crazy and knee jerks are coming in left right and centre we need to remember one thing and put our resources and efforts into this.
      . This is a global problem. It requires a global solution. Spend the time and the money towards getting a global solution. Not just taxing us so we reduce it by some minute %

      I am tired of the impression that the government is trying to give us that the tax will basically fix global warming. Lets face it. It wont do shit.

    • botaglove says:

      09:48am | 06/07/11

      I’m in favour of healthy skepticism and debate but I can’t agree with you here, Ren. My favourite skeptical science page on climate is http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php. It runs through the current arguments, both factual and economic, very succinctly. You may still disagree with it, of course: I’m just saying that if you’re interested in the debate it’s a good place to go.

    • Matt says:

      11:18am | 06/07/11

      @botaglove: You may want to point out to me on that site where healthy skepticism and debate actually exists. All I see is a pro-AGW site using vague (out of date) one-liners to try and shut down any differing opinions held by “deniers” and “skeptics”.

    • Ren says:

      03:38pm | 06/07/11

      Thanks for that Botaglove. I shall check out that site.

      I still dont see what you dont agree on however. Australia doesnt contribute much carbon as a % in the world.
      We propose to reduce our already small % by yet another small % though a new tax.

      If man made carbon is the cause of global warming then even so we still need to address this as a global problem and find a global solution instead of just taxing some more under the pretense that its basically going to save the world. It isnt gunna do much at all.

      I look forward to reading though the site you suggested. I just dont know yet and I am not going to make decisions on something I am not certain of. There is heaps of info out there good for both sides of the argument. The truth is a slippery thing. Opinions reign supreme.

    • Harquebus says:

      09:26am | 06/07/11

      Only an idiot would put a big Flashy black box in the middle of their web page. Some other time I will talk about Joe’s ignorance.

    • MarK says:

      10:33am | 06/07/11

      The black box is there to represent the symbolic black heart at the centre of peak oil.

      I for one do not welcome our new peak oil overlords.

    • Shifter says:

      12:50pm | 06/07/11

      ... mate.

    • jb says:

      09:28am | 06/07/11

      And one more thing…
      Isn’t science all about questioning?

    • The Badger says:

      10:39am | 06/07/11

      NO
      You’re thinking about the Inquisition

    • Bob says:

      11:29am | 06/07/11

      No science is about presenting fact. Unfortunately this comes at a cost so the only way for some scientists to survive is to present the facts in a way that the sponsors wants them presented.

    • MM says:

      04:25pm | 06/07/11

      @Bob

      Interesting that you bring up the cost argument… Given the fact that there would be more money in it for scientists if they jumped sides to the “polluters”.

      Saying that scientists thinking is swayed by where the money is coming from is laughable, given that for most circumstances the majority of the money is on the opposite side of scientists arguments.

    • Anna C says:

      09:29am | 06/07/11

      The climate has always changed.  I agree with Lord Mockton that we are better off spending our money adapting to climate change rather than trying to stop it. The Carbon tax will have a negligible affect on the amount of Carbon in the air.  All this tax will do is move money around and drive jobs overseas.

      I’m quite sick of the hysteria surrounding the whole climate change debate.  I switch off whenever I hear scientists going on about their doomsday scenarios.  Just yesterday I heard on ABC 702 radio that a scientist reckoned that two volcanoes were due to erupt in Victoria any time now, as it supposedly happens every 2000 years.  He questioned why contigency plans weren’t being put in place to deal with the destruction it would cause to infrastructure.  Get a grip scientists. Stop fear mongering. Surely there are better ways of getting funding to protect your jobs? Remember what they say about the boy who cried wolf.

    • Bev says:

      02:52pm | 06/07/11

      The volcanoes in question erupted 5,000 years ago.  They are not extinct they are dormant which means they can erupt again.  Unlike climate science geologists have a very good grasp of the science and mechanisms involved.  There is solid data pointing to an average time between eruptions of 2000 years extending back tens of thousand of years.  This can mean two things 1. they can be declared extinct in another 2000 years (7000 yrs) or 2. they will erupt again.  We visited this area and followed the tourist volcano trail and visited the museum.  In the near geological past this area was like hell on earth.  The effect on the landscape can be seen every where as there has not been time for it to weather down. The lava tubes and the channels to the sea where the lava flowed are quite evident.  Aboriginal legends decribe what the place was like 5,000 to 10,000 years ago.  Quakes in the area are a precursor but the geological time scale is in hundreds and thousands of years so a quake today may not cause an eruption until a 100 or more years down the track. Problem is will it erupt tomorrow or never?  Geologists cannot tell you, like they know where earthquakes will occur but not when.  So I don’t think there is a need to get out your thermal suit yet.  Sounds like this scientist has been mixing with the wrong crowd and caught the AGW virus.

    • Anna C says:

      09:29am | 06/07/11

      The climate has always changed.  I agree with Lord Mockton that we are better off spending our money adapting to climate change rather than trying to stop it. The Carbon tax will have a negligible affect on the amount of Carbon in the air.  All this tax will do is move money around and drive jobs overseas.

      I’m quite sick of the hysteria surrounding the whole climate change debate.  I switch off whenever I hear scientists going on about their doomsday scenarios.  Just yesterday I heard on ABC 702 radio that a scientist reckoned that two volcanoes were due to erupt in Victoria any time now, as it supposedly happens every 2000 years.  He questioned why contigency plans weren’t being put in place to deal with the destruction it would cause to infrastructure.  Get a grip scientists. Stop fear mongering. Surely there are better ways of getting funding to protect your jobs? Remember what they say about the boy who cried wolf.

    • Dan says:

      09:39am | 06/07/11

      I do love it when the comments section really just goes ahead and proves the article’s arguments.

      Sure, climate change isn’t real. And doctors actually recommend cigarettes. And the GST is going to cripple the average Australian family.

      Really, wake up people. The 96 percent of climate scientists that argue global warming is well and truly underway, have got it right. There’s no money in agreeing with the science. On the other hand, I think disagreeing has done great things for the profile of Ian Plimer and Bob Carter.

      To those who do disagree with the science - what would make you agree it’s real? What level of evidence is still lacking? I’m starting to worry the debate has moved well beyond any level of reason.

    • Warren says:

      09:52am | 06/07/11

      Haven’t you heard Dan? Climate change is a communist conspiracy. The governments of the world are in league with the IPCC, NASA, CSIRO and all climate scientists in an effort to distribute wealth from the rich to the poor. I know all this because Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones have told me so.

    • Anubis says:

      10:03am | 06/07/11

      Maybe if they announced that there actually was a definitive marker that human activity and Co2 (a beneficial gas) is causing the Climate to Change as a result of mankind. To date this has not been found, identified, announced.

      A proper debate that is without the cries of Denier/alarmist and calls that the “deniers” should be locked upwhere both sides of the argument are rationally discussed.

      An admission that yes Climate Gate did occur and that East Anglia were falsifying data (don’t say they were exonorated - it was like your much vaunted Peer Review which, in the case of Climate Science is really mate review). One bunch of dodgy scientists say that the other bunch of dodgy scientists aren’t dodgy, is not exoneration.

      Explain why, if the climate of Mars (and the ice caps there) are mirroring what is happening on earth (which they are and have been for over a decade) then why do the AGW/CC brigade refuse to accept that the sun is a major factor in what they call AGW.

      Explain just what effect a Carbon Tax will have on the climate (both Garnaut and Flannery say it will have absolutely zero effect)

      Put Nuclear Generation in to the picture - in one fell swoop we could cut our Carbon emissions by over 60%. If Co2 is such a baddie then surely that would be a necessary and urgent step.

      That’s a few starting points for you. I am sure there are more

    • Tim says:

      10:07am | 06/07/11

      ‘96% of climate scientists argue it’s real’?? Of course they would! They became climate scientists because they believe it’s real, now they just need to prove it. Pointing to melting ice bergs isn’t proof.
      It’s no different to saying ‘99.5% of drink drivers make it home safely, therefore drink driving is ok’.

      I would believe it if they tested their models. Some are 20-30 years old now, so their predicitions should be observable. Eg, Perth and Adelaide aren’t desert cities like Flannery predicted, so he is wrong.

    • Joel B1 says:

      10:10am | 06/07/11

      And so did Bob Brown with his idea for a Global Parliament. Based on one person, one vote.

      So that’ll be rule by the Chinese and Indians won’t it?

      Nuts.

    • MarK says:

      10:32am | 06/07/11

      Dan it has not warmed in the last decade.

      I would have thought a really good basis of proof of global warming caused by a linear increase in CO2 concentration would be warming.

      I mean come on are you really of the school that “can’t find the warming and that’s a travesty” thought?

    • Jack Richards says:

      10:50am | 06/07/11

      @Dan

      Where did you get 96% from?

      There was a time, indeed, when Doctors recommended cigarette smoking. My poor old granny took up smoking on doctor’s orders.

      “What level of evidence is still lacking? “

      How about “all of it”.

      Just three years ago there were plenty of the harbingers of doom telling us all that the drought would never end; that the Murray-Darling would dry up completely; that the only way the Capital cities would survive was by desalination of the ocean; that the polar bears would die out; the eskimos would soon start planting mango and avocado orchards along the shores of the Beaufort Sea.

      Now we have mothballed, and very expensive, de-salination plants in Brisbane and Melbourne. The dams are full, the rivers are flooding, the polar bears are still alive and breeding, and not a single mango tree has grown in the arctic circle.

      Where I live, in an isolated and drought prone part of the country, it has been raining for more than a year. Indeed, according to my rainfall chart, it has rained every third day for more than a year and dumped an average of 12 mm each time.

      The average temperature has also fallen - it hasn’t been this cool since the end of the 80’s drought. But we did have some very hot summers - they were right up there with the 1890s and 1930s.

      I watched that Al Gore movie when it first came out and was greatly impressed - greatly impressed by the distortions, manipulation of data, and outright lies! That whole section on mosquitoes was a complete nonsense and a bare-faced lie i.e. the claim that they were moving into cold places as the climate warmed! Obvioulsly Al has never been to Northern Canada or Alaska during the spring thaw!

      But Al Gore and the Lurch Browns and Tim Flannerys all have plenty of statistics to back them up. But I recently read that Universty studies prove that fully 53% of statistics are utterly worthless.

      Just for your edification, a good 96% of climate scientists were predicting a new ice age in 1975.

    • Dave Charlesworth says:

      10:52am | 06/07/11

      But Climate Change IS real Dan!!!!

      We are just not convinced taxing us to Death will fix it!!

      Clown!!!!

    • Capitalist Piggies says:

      12:09pm | 06/07/11

      Last decade hasn’t warmed?
      This is the idiot speak of the deniers

      The first decade of the 21st century was the warmest ever on Earth according to data released by scientists at NASA.

      http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-22/tech/nasa.warmest.decade.data_1_warmest-temperature-records-space-studies?_s=PM:TECH

      Now send me to the weatherman who leads a cult of deniers.
      I’ll pre-empt you

      NASA - put a man on the moon, brightest brains in science. Fly into space all the time. Know a lot about this sort of thing.
      Denialist website - ex weatherman who used to do weather reports for an AM radio station.

      hmmmmmmmmm
      Tough one that markie.

      I think I’ll go with NASA. You stick with the weatherman and let me know how that turns out for you.

      hard inorite

    • Dan says:

      12:16pm | 06/07/11

      You know what, I’m not going to bother arguing the science. I’ll let someone more intelligent than I do it for me - check out these guys:

      http://theconversation.edu.au/clearing-up-the-climate-debate-2078

      Though Dave wonders how ‘taxing us to death’ will fix anything.

      Well, I disagree with the “to death” part. In fact, if he’s earning anything under about $125k, he wont really be taxed at all. And if it’s under $150, he won’t be taxed much. And if it’s over that, well…suck it up.

      A carbon tax/ETS won’t fix climate change. Nor will it reduce the world’s temperatures. But it will shift the gears on the economy, creating a clear dis-incentive to pollute. The price on carbon will rise, and the number of emissions will drop.
      It puts us ahead of the game - particularly ahead of the US and Canada, who will eventually move to a carbon price. It’s a clear aim of Obama, and will probably feature in his second term. Canada has said they’ll quickly follow, if the US moves.
      And someone above mentioned nuclear power - I totally agree. I’m a big fan of nuclear power, it’s a simple and cheap way to lower emissions, and reduce dependence on coal.
      The world will eventually reduce it’s emissions - we might as well get in early.

      OK, open fire.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:32pm | 06/07/11

      “And if it’s over that, well…suck it up.”

      Typical attitude of the Socialist arsehole.  Resentful of those who work hard and earn big money, and gleefully rubs their hands together at the prospect of punishing people for no other reason that they earn more money than him.

    • LC says:

      12:42pm | 06/07/11

      @ Dan

      So basically it’s a tax on the rich?

      I fail to see how AGW is only the fault of the rich, sorry.

    • MarK says:

      12:43pm | 06/07/11

      No piggies it is a published peer reviewed paper.

      it has all the ingredients you want.

      You continually refer back to the GISS series which is the ONLY data series that shows a mild warming.

      If you want peer reviewed science there it is. If it is incobvenient to your cause I don’t give a rats arse.

      You are merely a zealot and a poor one at that. We got heaps of them on this blog. Another sheep in the flock.

      PS NASA put a man on the moon a loooooong time ago. More recently they blew up a space shuttle. Going on current form…..well you do the math. Don’t analogies suck pig?

    • Capitalist Piggies says:

      01:09pm | 06/07/11

      So you have nothing but a weatherman?
      Nothing?
      Easily led you are baka

    • John Smythe says:

      01:26pm | 06/07/11

      WTF!!?? BBQ!!!??111oneoneoen

      ******
      In fact, if he’s earning anything under about $125k, he wont really be taxed at all. And if it’s under $150, he won’t be taxed much. And if it’s over that, well…suck it up.
      ******************

      Jealous much? What does that have to do with anything?

      ********************
      A carbon tax/ETS won’t fix climate change. Nor will it reduce the world’s temperatures. But it will shift the gears on the economy, creating a clear dis-incentive to pollute.
      ********************
      How on earth will it shift anything apart from shifting money from those prepared to get off their arse and work hard, to those like you expecting handouts?

      It will create a clear dis-incentive to work and live in Australia that’s for sure.

    • Anubis says:

      01:47pm | 06/07/11

      @ Dan - From the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Monday (L. Mann, JH Stock, R. Kaufmann, H. Kauppi) - Given the widely notred increase in the warming effects of rising greenhouse gas concentrations, it has been unclear why global surface temperatures did NOT rise between 1998 and 2008. Furthermore, Global Surface temperature declined 0.2C between 2005 and 2008. This seeming disconnect may be one reason why the public is increasingly sceptical about anthropogenic climate change.” 

      There you are, straight from the scientists who “believe”. The world has not warmed since 1998. And note - they to have dumped the term Global Warming and changed it to climate change. You are a bit out of date @Dan.

      In case you are not aware Michael Mann, who is mentioned above, is a prominent member of the UN scientific panel whose landmark 2007 report warned that climate change was unequivocal and mostly caused by humans. And here he is last Monday clearly stating that the world has not experienced warming, but has in fact cooled, since 1998.

    • Tim says:

      09:42am | 06/07/11

      From today’s SMH, the bastion of leftist ideology; ‘even with a carbon tax, coal production will double in the next forty years’.
      So the carbon tax wont cut emissions? Then why have it?

    • Against the Man says:

      12:44pm | 06/07/11

      A Professor of Economics from Sydney Uni said to me over lunch last week that they might as well have a tax on the sale of chicken feathers because that will have the same impact as the carbon tax.

      With such a massive momentum against the carbon tax and those that support it, I just don’t understand what is going through the mind of Gilltard and her supporters ;(

    • LC says:

      11:56am | 07/07/11

      Slashing coal exports by a third would do more for the environment than the carbon tax.

    • stevem says:

      09:48am | 06/07/11

      There is absolutely no way this government should introduce a carbon tax on July 1 2012. It will do untold harm.

      Labor went to the 2010 election with the no carbon tax promise. We all knew they wanted a carbon tax but believed their promise. What we thought would happen is that they would spend 2-3 years carefully crafting a balanced, well thought out plan that they would take to the next election.

      We expected a plan that would achieve the goal of lowering emissions while protecting efficient local industry from unfair competition from foreign, inefficient industries. If they are clean and efficient our products should be cost effective against the imported goods.

      Everybody should pay for their emissions and the government advertising should be aimed at how to contain your costs of living by making simple changes to reduce carbon footprints.

      Instead we have another hastily prepared plan. They cannot have an understanding of the effects on the economy - there just hasn’t been time for the modelling to have been done. The plan has been forced through by The Greens, with their environmentally well meaning but economically disastrous policies. It has been compromised at every turn and appears to be nothing more that a wealth redistribution plan. They are already talking of an advertising blitz to “sell” that tax.

      The government needs to step back and start again. Release that well planned model and try to recover the trust they have lost. Distrust of the government’s agenda has led to distrust of climate science itself and unless that trust can be regained Australians will oppose a carbon tax forever - no matter what its merits.

    • Bruce says:

      09:51am | 06/07/11

      You can argue all you like about climate change. I’m not a scientist but if the scientists and all these groups (increasing by the day) the Government keep telling us are in favour of a carbon tax then why is it that there is not a global agreement?
      Does the majority of the world also not agree with the scientists and economists in Australia? If the eveidence as being pushed down our throats by Gillard is true (her doomsday predictions this week)  then I would assume the world would be on board. Makes me wonder…....................

    • iansand says:

      10:42am | 06/07/11

      Most of the world agrees that something should be done.  What makes you think they don’t?

    • Matt says:

      11:03am | 06/07/11

      ”  iansand says:

        10:42am | 06/07/11

        Most of the world agrees that something should be done.  What makes you think they don’t?”

      Copenhagen?

    • MarK says:

      11:13am | 06/07/11

      “Most of the world agrees that something should be done.  “

      So you have the survey figures on this

      So you can categorically say the majority of the world will take a lesser living standard to reduce carbon pollution.

      Better get on the blower to China then sanderson. After them India. Oh and Brazil. They will do for a start.

      http://www.essentialmedia.com.au/essential-report/page/3/

      That essential poll (you know the non shock jock left leaning so it must be right pollsters) suggests are wrong for Australia. I puy it to you sanderson that if you cannot even tell the truth about your country and deliberately mislead this blog you cannot be trusted with the global view.

      So there.

    • Angela says:

      11:28am | 06/07/11

      Do the rest of the world agree on a “carbon tax”?
      I think that’s Bruce’s poiint.

    • LC says:

      12:32pm | 06/07/11

      @iansand

      Action on AGW can be a simple $2-3/tonne carbon tax with no compensation and 75% of all the money raised going straight into R&D into sustainable3 technologies and the installation of the infrastructure needed for an eco-friendly future

      Action on AGW can be setting generous sustainable goals for business eg making 33% of the power a power company supplies come from non coal-fired sources by 2030, making all petrol stations offer a e10 blend by 2014 etc and setting up a watchdog body (with razor sharp teeth, unlike the ACCC) to make sure that the costs to meet the goals and penalties for failing to meet them aren’t passed down to everyday consumers.

      Hell, even just reducing taxes on eco-friendly products is action on AGW.

      The Greens won’t agree to any of them because these policies aren’t socialist enough to please them.

    • Dan smells BS says:

      09:52am | 06/07/11

      If the world were serious we would be banning the “bad things” not taxing them. This ETS is just a money making scheme with a feel good factor attached to it.

    • MarK says:

      10:29am | 06/07/11

      We certainly wouldn’t be excluding them Dan now would we.

    • Anubis says:

      09:55am | 06/07/11

      The Pacific Islands are drowning, Australia is in permanent drought, the rains will never return, the dams are dry, Sydney and Perth have no water, Australia, Australia will have the worst floods on record, will never again see snow, English children will from now on grow up without snow in winter, Austrralia’s coastal cities will be disappearing under sea water, our farmers will be walking off the land because of lack of water, the Murray/Darling will be reduced permanently to a mere trickle, we will be inundated by millions of Climate Change affected refugees, The Earth will be plunged into a catastrophic Ice Age, the Earth is warming and we will start to die from excess heat, cyclones will be worse, extreme weather events, the Barrier Reef will cease to exist.

      All AGW/CC believers predictions that are supposed to have happened by now.  The Earth is cooling, the Earth is Warming no it’s Climate Change Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh, the Sky is Falling - quick put a tax on that will affect everything we do and buy - there that will fix it. Isn’t it great to be Green.

    • Flexo says:

      10:19am | 06/07/11

      The polls show the majority don’t want a carbon tax, the bulk of comments here are against the carbon tax, the government has yet to explain and quantify to us why the carbon tax is a good thing. So the way I look at it we have all been given the royal screw job by the Gillard government. Are we going to stand for it?

    • RJB says:

      10:21am | 06/07/11

      The bed wetters and the sceptics can throw rocks at each other all they like with fact and fiction entwined however, the average common garden variety householder is focussed only on the EFF ALL factor. That trusted measurement of what effect outcome will be achieved by throwing our economy and standard of living down the eco drain.

    • Just Tired of all the bull@#it. says:

      10:30am | 06/07/11

      As always Joe, good stuff. Cogent and succinct with a dash of irony and humour. I wish you could pass on your skills to that spiv Penbo.

    • Occam's Blunt Razor says:

      10:54am | 06/07/11

      Joe,

      If you accept the science then you accept the need for a Global agreement that is environmentally, econmically and politically effective.

      It will NEVER HAPPEN.

      Ensuring strong economy in order to pay for the adaptation required is by far the best course.

    • Richard says:

      10:54am | 06/07/11

      NO Joe. Stop it. Stop demeaning and degrading independent minded thinkers who are just asking for evidence.

      Because I used to accept the consensus. For my whole life I accepted the Global Warming consensus. I remember being taught it in Science class in grade 9, that was about 15 years ago.

      But there comes a point, when you want to think for yourself without just accepting the gospel word about it from someone else.

      So Joe, respect our desire to think independently, and search for an answer as to why the predictions derived from the models based on the consensus position have been PROVEN so so wrong.

      Why no warming for the last 10 years? Data proves it. Why hasn’t there been an increase in the size and frequency of cyclones? The data proves it. Why hasn’t there been a reduction in the amount of snow falling? The data proves it.

      Please don’t call me a denialist, I am quite open to accepting new evidence. I mean, this is why I stopped being so accepting of the consensus, because new evidence became available that threw it into question.

      Now please, lets be reasonable. Can we all accept that the climate is changing, yes. But that’s to be expected, it always changes. In the Medieval Warming Period, grapes were grown in Scotland and Vikings navigated the North West Passage. It has been hotter than it is now, and it didn’t unleash Ragnarok.

      But can we also accept that the models used by Global Warming alarmists are WRONG. We must accept it, or else we are denying the evidence. There is a powerful negative feedback mechanism at work, there must be, or else we wouldn’t be seeing the data we are seeing.

      This is a scientific question, and until we get a scientific answer, the politicians should just butt the hell out of it. Like Ruslan Kolgan said, in science, its not a matter of “the majority believes such and such”, its a matter of “one man KNOWS this and can PROVE IT.”

    • Green Goblin says:

      11:10am | 06/07/11

      “Do the Greens care more about political posturing and going to bed in their inner-city terraces with smug self-satisfaction than they do about saving the planet?”

      You bet we do…how sweet it is, and we’re not going away any-time soon, suck it up peoples.

      All power to guru Bob.

    • Bev says:

      03:37pm | 06/07/11

      In that case I’m sure that you won’t mind having your power cut first when uncle Bob shuts down all those nasty coal burning power stations.  The rest of us would like to maintain some semblance of civilized living and keep our power.  So I’m sure you won’t mind being without power in order to maintain solidarity with guru Bob after all thats what you want.

    • Zeta says:

      11:17am | 06/07/11

      I don’t know a lot about climate change because I am not a hipster, but I am interested in the hilarious chaos that will result from an ETS.

      “The new carbon credit market is a virtual repeat of the commodities-market casino that’s been kind to Goldman Sachs, except it has one delicious new wrinkle: If the plan goes forward as expected, the rise in prices will be government-mandated. Goldman won’t even have to rig the game. It will be rigged in advance.” - that was Matt Taibi, in the Rolling Stone on the nightmare that is Goldman Sachs and their vice like grip on the testicles of global financial markets.

      Carbon trading markets around the world are already worth over $120 billion and expected to grow another 240 per cent. Delloite Forensic calls them ‘the white collar crime of the future’, and Denmark have already suspended theirs because, according to Delloite’s analysis of the FTSE and Chicago Carbon Trade hubs, 90 per cent of all EU carbon trade is fraudulent.

      The world’s vampire banks don’tt even need Australia’s ETS to wreck havoc - Australia’s APRA banking authority already forebade the domestic use of toxic financial instruments like consolidated debt obligations but that didn’t stop the GFC and credit crisis from causing problems here when they went spastic overseas.

      The spectacular Oceans 11 style ETS grafts will take many forms, here are my guesses -

      Investment banks will buy up spare carbon credits from anyone who can afford to flog them. Then, they’ll loan them back to companies, probably mostly small ones who Government always intended to get squeezed out of the pollution market in the first place. Ma and Pa mining operations, alluminium plants etc. They’ll continue limping along on the drip feed of credits from the banks, until the time to pay the piper has come - they’ll default, the bank will repossess the inoperable operation, and sell it, along with a bonus carbon credit package, to a larger firm to start the whole thing back up again. Larger companies will have a surplus of carbon credits anyway, the banking profit will be astronomical. No emissions cut, but big job cuts, and less competition in the Government mandated shrinking commodities market.

      Graft #2 - the Credit Swap 2: Electric Boogaloo.

      Not every bank is going to want to get into the buisness of actually loaning carbon credits, some will just want to hedge their bets on the capacity of buisness to meet the carbon efficency dividend Government will mandate. Company A is providing coal fired electricty to company B who mines coal. Company A is building wind farms to reduce the number of carbon credits needed to maintain energy supply and sells the credits to company B via a bank, who use a obligatory debt instrument as the middle man. Company B pays a premium for the new carbon credit, and doesn’t have to reduce emissions, because company A is doing that for them. Company B then reduces their debt to the bank by selling less coal for more money, which requires less power from Company A. Company A now has a power surplus, and even with generation diversity, has to put their hand out for more carbon credits. If the Government says no, they’ll have to go back to the bank who will buy back Company B’s credit and sell it back to Company A for double. Or tripple. Or however damn much they please.

      By now, companies A through Z are probably closing their doors and unemployment is rife but that won’t stop Joe and Jane Mundane from wanting to get in on the action, which brings us to Graft #3, by which time the banks are probably looking for exit strategies from the whole debacle now they’ve made their lucre.

      Is your superannuation green? Is your retirement climate neutral? These are the questions you’ll be asked 10 years from now when you’re encouraged to buy into super schemes that assess the credit rating of carbon trading arrangements and the capacity of buisness to pay and bet a dividend for you to recoup at retirement.

      Except, just like sub-prime and CDOs, for every Rio Tinto carbon credit you buy, you’re going to get the junk credits of companies who can’t afford to keep their doors open. And you’ll find out when you try to retire and live off, well, nothing.

      Once you go down the ETS rabbit hole, that carbon tax, and its fixed bottom line start looking pretty attractive.

    • Tom says:

      12:07pm | 06/07/11

      A brilliant analysis Zeta. Thanks. I somehow don’t think Malcolm Turnbull will love you for exposing his testicles.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      12:53pm | 06/07/11

      I’m in favor of a carbon tax, as long as there is NO ETS, No compensation, the proceeds go towards building nuclear power plants, population stabilization and carbon tariffs. There is a right way to do the carbon tax and a wrong way and as far as I am concerned Labor is stuffing it up.

    • Matt says:

      01:32pm | 06/07/11

      Zeta is back!

    • John Smythe says:

      02:19pm | 06/07/11

      Yup, well said Zeta. I am no where near as eloquent as you, but when I heard more about this, the first thing that sprung to mind was the tulip trade all those years ago smile

    • Bev says:

      03:46pm | 06/07/11

      @Tom you stole my thunder it was always in my mind that as an ex merchant banker Malcom could see $$$$$$$$$ in an ETS.

    • Ian1 says:

      11:30am | 06/07/11

      The tax will be rescinded anyway.  So it’s a costly exercise wasting tax-payer funds even going through the motions of doctoring something up behind closed doors.  It’s not like the public believe the current government of Greens/Labor and Independents anyway.  The best thing for us, would be an independent crossing the floor, the senate rejecting bills put forward by the new coalition plus one independent government, and a double dissolution to purge the Green scourge.  Our Nation is currently worse than directionless, it is rapidly spiralling along the wrong direction.

    • OMG says:

      11:35am | 06/07/11

      There is truth to be found in the old axioms: 

      If you are not a socialist by 19, you have no heart - if you are still a socialist by 29, you have no brain.

      Socialists always eventually run out of other people’s money to spend.

    • The Badger says:

      12:35pm | 06/07/11

      More truths
      A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward.
      Franklin D. Roosevelt

      A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
      Alfred E. Wiggam

      I never dared to be radical when young
      For fear it would make me conservative when old.
      Robert Frost

      A conservative is a man who sits and thinks, mostly sits.
      Woodrow Wilson

    • MarK says:

      12:46pm | 06/07/11

      Whenever a man does a thoroughly stupid thing, it is always from the noblest motives.
      Oscar Wilde

      Hey copy pasting quotes is fun.

      And of course,

      Yabba dabba do

      Fred Flintstone.

      Lets do this again Badger.

    • Confused Fuddy Duddy says:

      04:44pm | 06/07/11

      While we are cutting and pasting…..

      “They say that if you don’t vote labour when young you don’t have a heart; if you still voting labour at 30 you don’t have a brain:-

      A young woman undergraduate had the usual teenage left wing views, and she was very much in favour of higher taxes to support her education and for more government programs to redistribute wealth.  She was ashamed of her father, a staunch Conservative, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on her university tutorials & lectures she felt that her father had for years harboured a sick desire to keep what he thought should be his.
      One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich. He responded by asking how she was doing at university.
      She answered rather haughtily that she had a 90% average, and let him know that it was tough, she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying. She had no time to go out and party; She didn’t even have time for a boyfriend or many university friends because she spent all her time studying.
      Her father listened and then asked, “How is your friend Audrey doing?” She replied, “Audrey is sad; she takes all the easy classes, she never studies and she barely has a 50% average. She is so popular and university for her is a blast. She’s always invited to all the parties, and often doesn’t attend lectures because she’s too hung over.
      Her wise father asked his daughter, “Why don’t you go to the Dean’s office and ask him to deduct 20% off your average and give it to your friend who only has 50%. That way you will both have a 70% average, it would be fair and you would both be equal.
      The daughter, visibly shocked by her father’s suggestion, angrily fired back, “That’s a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I’ve worked really hard for my grades! I’ve invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!
      The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, “Welcome to the Conservative side of the fence.”

      Only wish I knew the author to attribute this quote to.

    • Amber says:

      11:50am | 06/07/11

      The warming argument is just a smoke screen for more sinister things. Just as the Greens cancelled live exports because of their ‘‘concern for the animals’’ and once that was achieved, cancelled their ‘‘concern for animals’...as they demonstrate their indifference to the tens of thousands now starving as a result.  So also, will their concern for the environment disappear, once they’ve closed everything down - their REAL agenda! Disenfranchise the people of this country -bring them to their knees, onto social welfare and then gain total control.  Sounds wacky? Any wackier than the Greens policies?  In the few years since Howard’s term, it seems the whacky has become the norm here.

    • jb says:

      12:10pm | 06/07/11

      Amber as crazy as that sounds Bob Brown during his press club speech pretty much spoke of what you say with his one world parliament with the HQ being in Australia, and who do you think he wants as PM of that council…

    • stevem says:

      12:32pm | 06/07/11

      The Greens policies are all well intended. The problem is that if you take their good intentions and lay them side by side, they neatly pave the road to hell.

    • Amber says:

      12:39pm | 06/07/11

      jb ...  ‘‘crazy’’ is the new norm - since everyone accepted the crazy GW theory.  It proved that people were ready to swallow anything so now, anything goes…or at least, worth a shot.

    • John the Zombie says:

      12:06pm | 06/07/11

      I remember the following comments by some of the leading govt supporters of climate change:

      1). Adelaide would become a dry state. No rainfall for years to come.
      2). same was said about Queensland and I think they even went to lengths of saying it would become a desert.

      Well guess what has happened over the last couple of years. Adelaide started having large amounts of rainfall. Once this occurred, these advisors never mentioned Adelaide again in their argument. They said “look, look at Queensland they are going to be a desert if we don’t do something”, all of a sudden as we saw the rain came and so did floods. Queensland had never seen floods like these before and areas that were known for floods in the past flooded.

      The same ppl were quiet till ppl started questioning them about it and they could not come up with a reason. So they decided to blame it on climate change even though many of the areas effected were known as flooding plains and that Queensland in the past had experienced floods before. Lastly they quickly changed tack and said again “look, Look” but this time it was not Queensland but Western Australia. They talked about the drought that was happening and how the main city Perth would not see rain for years to come and that the state would be in the state of drought, even though Carnarvon had experienced floods at the same time as Queensland. Then guess what, Perth over the last few weeks has experience heavy showers the like it hasn’t seen for many years.

      Now they are quiet.

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:59pm | 06/07/11

      From the propaganda dept of the ALP/Green government:

      ” Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:24pm AEDT

      A theory that Australia can expect drought-breaking rains within the year, thanks to increasing solar activity, has been dismissed.

      A paper on the research has been rejected from Australia’s top peer-reviewed meteorological publication as it is “significantly flawed”, its editor said.

      Associated Professor Robert Baker of the University of New England has been reported as saying that links between Earth’s climate and pulses of magnetic solar emission means that heavy rains are likely for eastern Australia later this year and in 2008.

      Professor Baker says his theory is based on correlations between Earth’s climate and 11-year peaks in the sun’s sunspot activity and switches in the sun’s poles, which also occur every 11 years.”


      Sure, he was out by 3 years. So what? After a decades long drought he was more reliable than anyone else.

      Must a nutter though. Doesn’t believe in AGW and CO2.

    • Warwick says:

      12:21pm | 06/07/11

      The feedback here overwhelmingly rejects the AGW theory and even more overwhelmingly rejects the Gillard-Brown CO2 tax. The mood here is in favour of a referendum or an election happening at the earliest opportunity. What can we do to bring on such a referendum or election? What can be done to arouse the voters in Tony Windsor’s and Rob Oakeshott’s electorates into a fury? What can be done to mobilize this disgust? Here it is expressed with great vehemence and clarity, so I would expect that it is similarly prevalent in the wider community. Trouble with Tony Abbott is that he is pretending (although no-one believes him) that he accepts the AGW garbage, so he can’t be relied upon to lead an effective opposition. Someone else will have to do it.

    • Your name:Amber says:

      12:37pm | 06/07/11

      Your comment: I think the days of having to accept the GW theory to politically survive, may be over.

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:38pm | 06/07/11

      Don’t write off Wilkie.

      He’s repeatedly stated that if Gillard goes he’ll consider his “deal” with her to support the government dead.

      But having said that he takes no notice whatsoever of his constituents and must surely know that he burnt his bridges with the Libs with his “I want $1Bn, hah ha you said you’d give me it!!” bullshit.

      Frankly, he’s a loon. But is he a history making loon?

    • John Smythe says:

      12:42pm | 06/07/11

      I would gladly go out of my way to do an absentee vote in a referendum to denounce the current government.

    • Leslie Victor Douglass says:

      01:37pm | 06/07/11

      Warwick, fortunately for australia and humanity in general the general consensus on this site does not neccesarily reflect that of all Australians nor people in general. This is after all a right leaning publication and the some of the commentors hereon are the most biggoted closed minded and xenophobic people you would ever want to put up against a wall should the revolution come.
      It would also seem that the vast majority of posters here are firm believers in a massive global conspiracy the likes of which has never been seen before, ie - every major scientific body in the western world is missleading the public and taking money from their respective governments to come up with results that go against the wishes / policies and ideas of said governments. To accept the denialist mantra you also have to belive that very conservative organisations such as NASA and the Royal Georaphic Society are part of this communist plot.
      We, in the “Western World” have been eating our future at an alarming rate for far too long now, We have 2 choices either adress the problems that are facing us - pollution, population, and our dependence on fossil fuels or wait for nature to adress the problems for us.

    • John Smythe says:

      02:07pm | 06/07/11

      or maybe, LVD, people like me just think the current government is shit, and refuse to roll over and get prisonwifed.

    • Tom says:

      05:22pm | 06/07/11

      @Leslie Victor Douglass, “biggoted closed minded and xenophobic people”?, “denialist mantra”?, “firm believers in a massive global conspiracy “? ...  flattery will get you nowhere. We ain’t buying your stupid tax.

    • Leslie Victor Douglass says:

      06:53pm | 06/07/11

      @ tom, so you accept that you are a fim believer in the aforementioned conspiracy - tjats ok - believe what you like. I am not asking you to buy anything- just pionting out what should be obvious to anyone with more than one functional brain cell.  - @ john- wether or not the current govt is “shit” wont make an iota of difference when the global population hits 9 billion and petrol is $10.00 per litre if you can get it.

    • John Smythe says:

      09:14am | 07/07/11

      LVD, like some others here, you seem to confuse the fact people like me do NOT accept this government, nor their half-arsed proposals as equating to not wanting to do anything about the issue at hand.

      Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact something should be done is commonly accepted by many posters here. But this does not mean that we need to blindly accept poorly thought out, poorly represented, wealth distribution schemes poorly disguised as a solution to a more serious matter.

      Myself and others have stated other ways this could be handled. If your eagerness to do something, has you happy to blindly accept whatever proposal the government, especially this government, comes up with, then feel free to pay other peoples’ portion as well.

    • Lucas says:

      12:39pm | 06/07/11

      I am no expert in human nature but the fact that the global warming faith has begun to flounder in the last couple of years may, just may, have something to do with the fact that the world stopped warming over 10 years ago. Facts tend to be more persuasive than blind faith. Well, most of the time anyway. Unless you are an Australian journalist.

    • nossy says:

      12:51pm | 06/07/11

      Gillard has been doing “selective” leaks for a while now on many issues but hasnt learnt her lesson about the unintended consequences. The backflip on not including petrol is a shocker and opens up another can of worms - who has to pay what for petrol ? Hewsons GST Birthday Cake revisited. The Carbon Tax will most likely go through with the support of the Greens and Independents but Gillard may now have done herself a major political injury? Time will tell. I myself am very sceptical now of a reform that has been trimmed and partly gutted to cater for pure popularity or acceptance and very sceptical of a PM that allows that.  Roll on Sunday - Sunday Bloody Sunday !

    • Joel B1 says:

      01:05pm | 06/07/11

      Yeah nossy,

      We have a tiny diesel hatchback that does 800km to the tank (and it’s a small tank) around the city and 1000+ on the highway.

      Are we going to be slugged with the madness of a higher diesel tax?

    • nossy says:

      02:00pm | 06/07/11

      @Joel B1 - exactly Joel - ICB!

    • Bev says:

      04:20pm | 06/07/11

      I brought this up further up in the comments. Reporters have asked about diesel and LPG and have got different answer from different Labour people.  Seems as though this is another one which Juliar announced without thinking it through as usual.  If its only petrol people like Joel B1 get kicked in the head because he chose the wrong motor on the basis of it being more economical and less poluting. Similar story to those who brought/convertered to LPG.  Diesel is a real can of worms.  If its not taxed so that Joel B1 gets the same break but businesses are taxed on their diesel we have a problem.  Since many trucks fill up at the same service stations as we do how do you differentiate and how do you stop cheating? I think this is a sleeping monster about to wake up.
      Joel B1 I wish I got your economy we have a large turbo diesel 4x4 to tow the van.  Long range 150 litre tank plus 4 by 20 litre cans for off road, total 230 litres. On road 25 litres per hundred and off road up to 30 per hundred depending on terrain.

    • grumpy old man says:

      12:51pm | 06/07/11

      Joe, until someone can tell me the measurable impact of the carbon Tax or an ETS on the amount of carbon in the atmosphere, on a per $ basis, I remain a skeptic of the proposals. Simply put, taking a $1 from my wallet will not change the amount of carbon in the atmosphere.
      You need to distinguish between those who are skeptical of the efficacy of the various proposed schemes, and those who are skeptical of the science, two different groups.
      I firmly believe we need to clean up our environmental act, but I remain skeptical of any of the daft proposals of this government.

    • DL says:

      01:21pm | 06/07/11

      I really started to understand how stupid most australians are when i went overseas, and saw how they deride us for being so backward on this incredibly important issue.

      If it wasn’t so damn important it might actually be funny how dumb we are to allow people like abbott into our parliament.

    • Markus says:

      01:36pm | 06/07/11

      I really started to understand how irrelevant foreigner’s opinions are, when I noticed that half of the people deriding us for being so backward on this issue were from countries on the verge of economic collapse.

      Thanks but no thanks, Spain, Ireland and Greece, you can keep your ETS for yourselves.

    • melle says:

      02:19pm | 06/07/11

      @DL,  Stop pretending.
      Australians aren’t being derided.
      Very sooky attitude

    • Rob Russell says:

      07:15pm | 06/07/11

      Yes that would foreigners like us here in Indonesia, who will quickly fill any idiot gap in coal production that Australia creates.  Best of all we ain’t that fussed about environmental issues nor the sulfur content, so actually no only do you lose jobs, you make things worse while we profit.  By the way, thanks for the other industries you are forcing over here.  Some times we cannot believe our dumb luck in having such a bunch of morons as neighbours.

    • Carl Palmer says:

      01:26pm | 06/07/11

      One of the better articles I’ve read that goes some way in supporting the notion that the AGW is not real. Yes not.

      As Einstein once said, if you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it yourself.  People quite rightly subscribe to the KISS principle.  On that basis people have gone out and have done their own homework. You see, they don’t need superior beings or should I say fools like you to be so condescending.  Until a proper debate has been had, I will reject this stupidity because I don’t want to give my money to you, the Govt, Greens, the UN or anyone else for that matter so that you can PxxS it up the wall.

    • iansand says:

      01:55pm | 06/07/11

      What don’t you understand?

    • MarK says:

      03:19pm | 06/07/11

      Hey sanderson most of the world is against a carbon tax.

      Just saying

    • iansand says:

      04:09pm | 06/07/11

      MarK - Ring this number 6584 1310

    • MarK says:

      04:46pm | 06/07/11

      I checked again sanderson.

      Even more of the world is against a carbon tax than last time.

      PS….made you answer you big lefty progressive intellectual unit you

    • Carl Palmer says:

      09:01am | 07/07/11

      @ iansand says: 01:55pm | 06/07/11

      Wayne Swan said that Australia’s economy needs to introduce a price on carbon (a tax) to protect its prosperity

      Winston Churchill said
      “I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle”  ...
       
      I’ll leave you and your kind to stand in that bucket.

    • melle says:

      01:26pm | 06/07/11

      Has the mammalogist Flannery not convinced the people?

      If the situation is so serious, why was this person chosen, to try to educate the nation

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      01:33pm | 06/07/11

      The whole issue of Climate Change has been turned into a political football. There is No debtae. There is No discussion. take the Gillard Government’s ill-named Inter-Party Climate Change thingy! Gillard set this up & as the main criteria she stated that only those who fully believed in & accepted 100% the entire Climate Change picture as presented by her & the people she or Rudd appointed as their advisors would be allowed to be part of this committee. Now I believe that Climate Change is occurring BUT, just like so many others, I do have questions,doubts call them what you will but I am not allowed to have those questions/doubts addressed. Gillard’s stance is that “It is all my way & my way only. I am, as always, right & everyone must obey me & agree with everything I say”
      It is no wonder people are confused & angry for they have been walked over, denigrated & ridiculed. One of the most blatant instances of this treatment by Gillard’s True Believers was that of Samah Hadid on ABC-TV’s Q&A programme some weeks ago when she so stupidly claimed that the 45,000 people across Australia who attended the Yes to the Carbon Tax Rallies was an endorsement by the Majority of Australians of Gillard’s Carbon Tax , ooops, sorry, Price, Levy,Fee, when the truth is that more people attended one AFL match in melbourne or one NRL game in Sydney than attended her Australia-wide rallies which had been arranged weeks in advance. She then insulted in every possible way the few people who attended the hastily arranged Anti-Carbon Tx rallies.
      It is time the MPs, including Gillard & Abbott & their non-scientist advisors,sat
      down & shut up!
      It is time ALL the scientists who study the world’s climate sat down & started talking & told us the truth - warts & all!

    • Nellie says:

      01:38pm | 06/07/11

      The debate over whether global warming is real or not is immaterial as NEITHER major party is considering doing nothing. The debate now is how we pay for climate action. There are two approaches -  either the carbon tax/ETS proposed by the Government and likely to pass into law this year or the opposition’s direct action. I personally prefer the “market based solution” as only those who produce carbon pay the tax. I already pay more for green power so don’t expect those costs to rise much. If a good or service I consume increasse in price beyond a reasonable level, I’ll look around for alternatives. I do this for everything already and it’s really no big deal. The direct action plan would need to spell out where the money is coming from to pay for it - I’d want to know what services the Opposition will cut to fund the plan before I vote for it. I assume most swinging voters like myself will weigh those options sometime near the next election. If it meant that health or education services were to be cut then I would be unlikely to support it.
      So regardless of whether you believe in AGW or not doesn’t matter. That debate has been lost. Australia is cutting it’s carbon by at least 5% - all political players are on side with that.and we need to move on and decide how we pay for it.

    • Joel B1 says:

      02:26pm | 06/07/11

      It’s Carbon Dioxide ...

      Not Carbon, still, don’t let reality get in your way.

    • Nellie says:

      04:17pm | 06/07/11

      Carbon, carbon pollution, carbon dioxide .......
      Doesn’t change the reality that ALL political parties are committed to cuts and ONLY disagree about who pays!!

    • Ben81 says:

      09:19pm | 06/07/11

      “If a good or service I consume increasse in price beyond a reasonable level, I’ll look around for alternatives.”
      Yeah great, you and lots of people, let’s hope those alternatives aren’t goods produced overseas.  And that goes for people buying Australian products here or abroad.  See the problem here?

      The debate is over this tax, not whether we should act at all, and it doesn’t matter who wins the debate because we have no say.  Thankfully we have people like Tony Abbott fighting hard for that right.

    • AKoiLus says:

      01:46pm | 06/07/11

      Joe Hildebrand where in the hell do you get off? “Elitist obstructionism” you say ROFLMAO. Your one who just obeys right. The Greens know that a Carbon Tax, or an Emissions trading scheme will in NO way improve the environment. They are purely economic mechanisms (A theory BTW) that will further enrich the people doing the most damage. You can keep your head in the sand, and believe what ever your overloads wish to tell you. But rational people know there are better ways that are known of today to help solve this important issue yet are not being heard because people like you keep shouting them down!

    • Mark says:

      02:03pm | 06/07/11

      To be fair Joe, I’m not sure we can assume that everything would be hunky-dory had the previous ETS gone through.

      The Rudd/Gillard governments are full of incompetent, inexperienced careerists who have comprehensibly stuffed every single thing they’ve attempted to implement, I don’t think the ETS would have been any different, nor will the carbon tax.

      I’m all for action, as long as it’s put together and implemented by an experienced, competent government.  That way I can safely assume it’s been properly thought out, costed, and well considered.  Makes you wish Howard and Costello had done it before we turfed them out because things were so good that we were bored.

      I can guarantee one thign about this carbon tax:  this mob will f*** it up.  Somehow, some way.

    • Leigh says:

      02:14pm | 06/07/11

      “…a debate over whether it is even real or not.”

      It’s real enough. Climate change has been occurring for millennia. It’s the man-made idea that is absolute rubbish.

      And, where did thus “fully mandated” and “fully modelled” pollution reduction scheme come from? There was no mandate from the people when Howard buckled (he lost the election, remember), and more politicians than just Hildebrand’s “hard right” were against it.

      We all know that the Greens are ‘stupid’. But many voters are even more stupid for voting for them at the last election, and for believing Gillard’s lie that there would be no tax on carbon dioxide.

      Now, we will have a tax because it is more important for Gillard to struggle on in power as a liar, than it is to lose the Greens support. The tax will have no effect the climate for good or bad; it will have a great effect, though, on Australia and Australians, and it is too damned late for any moaning about the Greens and Gillard now.

      For the next two years, socialist Labor and the Greens – both misanthropic – can do as they please. The Green extremists have another two elections before they can be rooted out.

    • Leigh says:

      02:18pm | 06/07/11

      Tony Abbott will be remembered in history as one of the few to stand up to this enormous scam.  Maybe not now, but eventually.

      His actions, and Labor’s woeful ineptitude turned me from a life long Labor voter.

      All we can do now is hope the weight of public anger limits the stupidity of this govt and the green vandals

    • John Ashton says:

      03:56pm | 06/07/11

      Hi Leigh,
      In case you haven’t noticed, Tony Abbott has a “direct action” plan to mitigate climate change based on science he describes as “Crap”.
      Maybe you could explain to me, Leigh, where Abbott actually stands on this issue - beyond a cynical opportunism.

    • Aitch B says:

      02:59pm | 06/07/11

      I’m a little surprised that Pers isn’t jumping into this thread in a big way.

      Then again, it’s school holidays and she might be enjoying some time away with the billy lids.

      But then again, she may have been hog-tied by the ALP spin machine until after the big announcement on Sunday!! smile

    • Anubis says:

      03:30pm | 06/07/11

      I would support the latter option there. The thought of Pers being hog-tied sorta gives a sense of everything being right in the world

    • Yon Toad says:

      03:21pm | 06/07/11

      Sweet Jesus Joe, you’re almost apoplectic! Has your Dad been threatening you again?

    • thatmosis says:

      03:56pm | 06/07/11

      The only reason the greens have so many in Parliament is because of the preferencing. This time no party would dare preference the greens and there they go the way of the Democrats, the Doddo and the Dinasaures

    • John Ashton says:

      05:07pm | 06/07/11

      Actually, the Greens got 1.5 million votes and got one seat in House of reps, the Nationals got one third that amount and got six seats - now THATS what I call preferencing and gerrymandering.

      You do the maths.

    • The Badger says:

      05:28pm | 06/07/11

      This is really amusing seeing all the conservatives obviously in pain and struggling for some sort of relevance in the new new paradigm.

      Overtaken by independents, greens and Labor moving the nation forward in spite of the opposition leaders longest dummy spit ever recorded. This truly is a great time to be alive watching the will of the people be actuated.

      I’m really enjoying this, hope you can keep up the weeping and gnashing of teeth for many more years, as it gives me great pleasure.

    • cutelyconservative says:

      06:25pm | 06/07/11

      @The Badger,  Profound comment for these times.

      Believe the sow badger is easily diverted and not as smart as the boar.  You’re possibly the former?

    • The Badger says:

      07:58pm | 06/07/11

      Haven’t you heard?
      Badgers just don’t give a shit.

    • LC says:

      03:27pm | 07/07/11

      I’d hardly call Labor left-wing anymore badger. Think of them to be more like “Liberal-Lite”.

      The only reason they are going forward with the carbon tax is because they cannot govern without the Greens’ support.

    • The Badger says:

      06:47pm | 07/07/11

      LC

      Nah
      They took a emissions reduction legislation into parliament on numerous occasions.  They would have pursued this with or without the greens.
      They really haven’t wavered on this unlike the flip flop coalition.

      You are right, Labor isn’t left wing any more, but they are as far left from the centre as the conservatives are too the right.
      I don’t care really, I didn’t vote for either of them. I just hate conservatives and the further to the right they drift, the more I hate them.

    • Lesley laurel says:

      05:44pm | 06/07/11

      The Greens and the Labor Party is Australia’s greatest federal government.
      They know best for Australia, our economy, our environment and our society.
      They are perfection, excellence and intelligence.They are flawless.
      They have made the mass media and their frankenstein creation, the Liberal National Party obsolete.

    • Lesley Laurel says:

      05:51pm | 06/07/11

      Joe Hillegarde once said in 2011
      “nothing works. Everything and everyone is bad. Everyone is either an idiot or is trying to stab you in the back.
      Well, with the Greens and Labour our perfect, excellent, flaless, intelligent and beautiful federal government,everything works, everything and everyone is good and only the mass media and its frankenstein creation, the Liberal National Party are idiots trying to stab our greatest ever federal government The Labor & Greens Government in the back.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      05:56pm | 06/07/11

      Hi Joe,

      May be it is a back flip just like you mentioned.  However, I truly believe the whole thing is proving a little bit too costly for our Federal Government.  Recently, we all have been worried about extra taxes as well as how our living costs are rising rapidly without any explanation about the future of most Australians.

      Just like we have discussed earlier, we seem to be facing such huge problems when it comes the luck country we call Australia.  It is very sad to say the least,  when it comes to our minimal population and the huge continent we live on, as well as the enormous problems facing everyday Australians!!

      I just want to say “lucky” for whom, really??  With our rich resources at hand we should be producing more, instead of just being consumers!!  It is the same with our living and educational standards, as we are failing to be the clever nation.  Just because of the fact that, we all seem to be providing education to the rest of the world.  How about our young generation, what do they actually deserve??

      Hopefully, when we begin with asking questions, we should be able to find the actual answers in this process as well.  Best regards to your editors.

    • John Don says:

      06:02pm | 06/07/11

      Seems like a lot of people commenting on this article need a bit of basic climate education.  This can be found on the Bureau of Meterology website.  Check it out, read it, then conduct your own research before you discredit scientists without any evidence to back yourselves up.

      http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/
      On this page you will find: links to global trends in climate, Australian trends in climate, information on how the climate is monitored and infromation about climate models.
      Happy reading and learning!

    • Expat Ozzie says:

      06:07pm | 06/07/11

      I know why Joe wrote the article in this way. He obviously reads the responses from the nut jobs on both sides of this argument. Nice work Joe you’ve really fired the nutters up today. Love your work it given me a really good laugh.

    • Paul Horn says:

      06:15pm | 06/07/11

      Joe Joe, Joe you disappoint me old chap!
      Two questions for you global warming maddists! The first is please explain why between 1910 and 1940 the average global temperature increased by almost as much as it did between the 70’s and the nasty noughties, approximately 0.5 degrees. Second question Joe how can you claim a “trend” of increasing temperature when the yearly temperature fluctuations are 3 to 4 times greater than the claimed trend? It’s just badass mathematics Joe,very very bad mathematics!   

      Non one’s denying that CO2 is a “greenhouse” gas Joe but for Gods sake it constitutes only 0.035% of the atmosphere!!! Is the Earth so pretentious that an additional 0.005% will send the planet into an unrecoverable death spin? Surely such an infinitesimal amount is masked by the much larger contributors to climate fluctuation such as solar radiation etc etc etc.

    • Against the Man says:

      07:17pm | 06/07/11

      It is all about the money, the climate is just an excuse.

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/07/06/3262698.htm?section=justin
      http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/NSW-Govt-raises-carbon-tax-abc-2953484013.html

      All that compensation helps the environment how?
      All those jobs loses already in motion because it means maximum profits no?

      How interesting…...I wonder if the pro-carbon tax twits are going to compensate those workers.

      I mentioned the job loses and decrease work hours as an issue a few weeks ago and now that the wheels are in motion I don’t know what to say. Australians very sadly have to learn the hard way….............let this be an important lesson, the Kevin 07 election BS suddenly isn’t so positive and fun.

    • Mark says:

      06:25pm | 06/07/11

      Although you do mention it, Joe, the following sentence seems incomplete.

      “The fully mandated and fully modelled carbon pollution reduction scheme, a plan to save the planet that was overwhelmingly endorsed by voters for both major parties at the previous federal election, was killed off by a minor party which claims – and this is like totes ironic – to be pro-environment” ...

      ... and a major party.

      If the Liberals hadn’t betrayed the voters, the Greens would have been irrelevant.

    • James says:

      06:40pm | 06/07/11

      Confusedfuddyduddy, that is such a poor example, it is laughable! I could bother to go into such minor details as university grades being a completely different issue to money, how the notion that rich people work harder then poor people is simply wrong etc etc, but that would give your post a level of dignity it does not deserve. The smarminess oozing from the quote is almost nauseating…
      Anyway, to the article in question, I simply cannot believe the close-minded stubbornness and/or stupidity of some. Did it not occur to people that times change? With Kevin “Climate change is the greatest moral challenge of our time” Rudd and the moderate Malcolm Turnbull leading their respective parties, the Greens thought they could get a better “deal” so to speak and thus voted it down. Even Glenn Beck is familiar with the notion of “Overton Window”. Was it the wrong thing to do in retrospect? Obviously, yes. But absolutely NO ONE could have predicted that both leaders would have been sacked by their own parties.

    • Confused Fuddy Duddy says:

      08:46pm | 06/07/11

      James you poor darling,
      Do you not understand the notion “Tongue in cheek”? How anyone could seriously take the quotation I posted as a parable in the absolute is beyond me.
      It does however fairly accurately describe a frustration of many who have worked hard to achieve a finacial position somewhat above the position they started out from.
      Now I step back and allow this discussion to get back onto topic, my apologies to all for this diversion.

    • Chris says:

      06:53pm | 06/07/11

      John Howard will get his ETS eventually. It might not be until 7 or 8 years later than he’d planned, but he will get it.

    • Rob Russell says:

      06:53pm | 06/07/11

      Ok, I really don’t have enough time to wade through the nonsense.  So I give up, CO2 causes climate change and hey cannot be a bad idea to shut down polluting industries.  So just once can some explain the following:

      How will the Carbon Tax make even 1% of difference in the world?
      Does anyone really believe it will make difference?
      Does anyone really believe the average mug in the street will not end up paying the cost of the tax, if you do why?
      Does anyone believe that even closing all of the coal mines in Australia
      wont result in more mines opening in Indonesia (we are doing that now)?
      Does anyone really believe that smelting and heaving polluting jobs won’t simply be shifted offshore to less environmentally conscious nations (thanks for the jobs idiots)?
      Does anyone really believe the money from the tax will be redirected to green technology viable companies or will it be like the fuel parity tax that was going to fix road and public transport system forever?

      Seriously, lets assume the science is correct, please tell me what this tax with achieve in reality??

    • Ben says:

      07:06pm | 06/07/11

      Joe,  I’m afraid you are terribly, terribly wrong.

      Labor refused to negotiate with the Greens, preferring to compromise the scheme by appeasing the coalition.

      Contrary to your comments, the CRPS would have locked in failure.  Modelling suggested it would not have influenced carbon emissions until after 2030 and even then, this would have occured through dodgy foreign offsets, rather than local reductions.  The compo provisions would have prevented us acting more strongly in the future without prohibitive industry compensation.

      The Greens took a difficult but absolutely defensible stance.

    • Eigengrau says:

      10:46pm | 06/07/11

      My main problem with this rather hysterical piece is that the author equates the carbon pollution reduction scheme with saving the planet. In the wake of Copenhagen and the total collapse of a multilateral approach to carbon dioxide reduction, even the most extreme ETS would do nothing to global emissions in the current political climate. Many of these climate change ‘skeptics’ you paint as your intellectual inferiors are actually people who think that pretending that Australia’s contribution will have any effect on CO2 emissions globally is to engage in hubris and delusion. Anyway, instead of just blaming the Greens, why didn’t Rudd pull the double dissolution trigger instead?

    • Daniel says:

      08:36am | 07/07/11

      I think the Greens have been very good here and will get a good outcome. its not for the Greens to sell though. That is the ALP as the ALP is in government not Greens. The ALP since the end of Howard have had major issues on policy and selling those ideas to the public. They need some decent staffers who don’t have their heads up their asses I think.

    • Matt says:

      10:10am | 07/07/11

      I was under the impression the Greens went against Kevins ETS because it was not a ‘functioning, active and effective emissions trading scheme’ and in fact it would have locked us into a higher price than announced today for at least 20 years.  Why lock in a price for that long? 

      Larissa Waters explained exactly why the Greens didn’t want ALP’s ‘model’ the other day and her explanations were very practical and logical.  If you’re going to state facts Joe, make sure you state all that are relevant to your argument.

      The ‘loony Greens’ as you put it, know much more about what’s going on then you do, as does the general public it seems.

    • el-viejo says:

      10:38am | 07/07/11

      Joe Hildebrand, I’ll do you a deal. I will happily pay as much as you deem fit to be my share of the costs necessary to arrest or reverse AGW. But only against a legally binding contract with you, containing (a) performance clauses expressed terms of either atmospheric CO2 ppm per dollar, or degrees C per dollar; whichever you prefer; (b) contractual penalties for non-delivery of the agreed performance indicators within agreed timeframes;  and (c) watertight provisions to sue you for every cent you own and everything you can borrow if you renege on the contract. However, if you want me to hand over a proportion of my very hard earned, plus a signed blank cheque, on a handshake and a vague promise, take a hike. I am a child of continental Europe and have seen first hand the devastating effects of muddled socialist thinking.

    • Jay says:

      10:48am | 07/07/11

      Joe you still don’t get it. It has nothing to do with saving the planet; it has all to do with implementing their socialist/Stalinist agenda. The environment is just a cover and the media just swallow it up.

    • Obob says:

      11:27am | 07/07/11

      If climate change is *real* as the leftists/warmists repeat ad nauseum, why no warming since 1998???

      No Warming 1998 To 2008 Confirmed By Peer Reviewed Paper, Leftists/Warmists Apoplectic At Such Blasphemy

      A new peer-reviewed paper from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences confirms no warming for a decade:
      5 Jul 2011


      … it has been unclear why global surface temperatures did not rise between 1998 and 2008.

      We find that this hiatus in warming coincides with a period of little increase in the sum of anthropogenic and natural forcings.

      Declining solar insolation as part of a normal eleven-year cycle, and a cyclical change from an El Nino to a La Nina dominate our measure of anthropogenic effects because rapid growth in short-lived sulfur emissions partially offsets rising greenhouse gas concentrations.

      As such, we find that recent global temperature records are consistent with the existing understanding of the relationship among global surface temperature, internal variability, and radiative forcing, which includes anthropogenic factors with well known warming and cooling effects.

       

      The paper curiously blames both unknown natural factors and the big rise in China’s coal use, which is says means more emissions of sulfur to cool the planet.

      But shouldn’t that also mean more carbon dioxide, which we’re told would warm the wold dangerously?


      http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/pnas-201102467.pdf


      ——————————————————


      No, The Leftist/Warmist Sulphur Excuse For No Warming 1998-2008 Won’t Wash
      Maybe human-caused emissions really don’t produce the warming that the warmists’ models say they must
      July 6 2011

      Judith Curry says a new study blaming China’s sulphur dioxide emissions - caused by increased burning of coal (!!) - for the lack of warming over the past decade does not compute:

      Looking at the black curves (historical, to 2005), it is seen that sulfur dioxide emissions peaked during 1960-1980, and then have steadily decreased (a tiny uptick after 2005 is seen in some of the future scenarios).

      Fossil fuel black carbon has shown a stead increase since 1950, as has fossil fuel organic carbon.

      I don’t seen any signal in the total aerosol emissions that resembles the coal emissions with a flat trajectory since 1985 and an uptick after 2004 (although the historical data ends in 2005)

      http://www.geosci-model-dev.net/4/543/2011/gmd-4-543-2011.pdf


      No, it may just be that that human-caused emissions really don’t produce the warming that the warmists’ models say they must.


      http://judithcurry.com/2011/07/04/an-explanation-for-lack-of-warming-since-1998/#more-3966

    • George says:

      11:33am | 07/07/11

      If the evidence for anthropogenic global warming is so good , why are the Leftist/Warmist closet totalitarians running scared and desperately trying to silence any dissent??


      I never thought I’d see “academics” sign a petition demanding someone be stopped from simply arguing.

      But in Western Australia last week, that’s just what was done by 50 “academics”, from professors to a PhD candidate specialising in the representation of the Salvation Army in Finnish cinema, who demanded the University of Notre Dame stop warming sceptic Christopher Monckton from speaking there.

      I’ve seen pictures of people being silenced for heresy before, of course, but they were in history books, drawn from inquisitions centuries ago, in another continent.

      But this is Leftist dominated Australia. Today.

    • Obob says:

      11:41am | 07/07/11

      Hey Joe Don.ou said
      “Seems like a lot of people commenting on this article need a bit of basic climate education.  This can be found on the Bureau of Meterology website.  Check it out, read it, then conduct your own research before you discredit scientists without any evidence to back yourselves up.”

      Is this the same BoM who have had to rework their climate models to account for Fewer and less severe hurricanes recently?

      OOPS! Leftist/Warmist Models Dead Wrong Yet Again. REWORK!
      July 6 2011

      The Bureau of Meteorology admits that the global warming models once said we should be having more cyclones, and worse:


      There is substantial evidence from theory and model experiments that the large-scale environment in which tropical cyclones form and evolve is changing as a result of greenhouse warming….

      IPCC (2001) concluded that ‘there is some evidence that regional frequencies of tropical cyclones may change but none that their locations will change. There is also evidence that the peak intensity may increase by 5% to 10% and precipitation rates may increase by 20% to 30%. There is a need for much more work in this area to provide more robust results.’


      But, once, again, the models seem to be very wrong, especially for the Australian region:

      So the models get reworked again to look less at odds with what’s actually happening:


      Since that time there has been a growing number of studies that indicate a consistent signal of fewer tropical cyclones globally in a warmer climate… Substantial disagreement remains between climate models concerning future changes in tropical cyclone intensity, although the highest resolution models show evidence of an increase in tropical cyclone intensity in a warmer world.

      There have been three recent studies producing projections for tropical cyclone changes in the Australian region.

      Two suggest that there will be no significant change in tropical cyclone numbers off the east coast of Australia to the middle of the 21st century.

      The third study, based on the CSIRO simulations, shows a significant decrease in tropical cyclone numbers for the Australian region especially off the coastline of Western Australia. The simulations also show more long-lived eastern Australian tropical cyclones although one study showed a decrease in long-lived cyclones off the Western Australian coast.

      Each of the above studies finds a marked increase in the severe Category 3 - 5 storms.
      [Huh? Check out the above graph]


      Can’t wait for the official leftist/warmist comment:
      “Reduced cyclone activity is what we have always said would occur under global warming”.


      And we are told never to question *the science*.

      It’s in.

      Yeah right.

      http://www.bom.gov.au/cyclone/climatology/trends.shtml

    • James says:

      04:21pm | 07/07/11

      Don’t blame the Greens for the general level of ignorance in the community, that is much more a function of governments that have been in charge of education, as far as I know that has never included the Greens.

      Bagging the Greens for stupidity has become the joke that even dumb people make.

    • keithy says:

      04:37am | 10/07/11

      Joel B1 says:08:19am | 06/07/11

      How true, Hildebrand’s stupid name-calling merely illustrates he hasn’t got a valid argument.

      BTW I’ve got a BSc(Hon) and my wife’s got a PhD (science) and we are yet to be convinced by the name-calling warmists.
      <<

      But what do you do for a living? Plenty of Australians are named in those climate reports and have been working on el nino and the systems it interacts with for a long time but if you’re not in the field you wouldn’t have a clue!

      I would expect anyone with a logical brain to be able to utter more than two sentences!!

 

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