Depression ain’t the only mental illness in town

acotrel says:

06:10am | 02/11/11

@James Ricketson
How do you tell when someone is delusional ?  Do you question your own ‘normality’ ? Whenever I visit Melbourne I see thousands of people driving cars in chaotic traffic, all competing with one another. -  Is that ‘normal ’ ? Do you think their might be a relationship between conditioning, and mental illness ?

marley says:

07:40am | 02/11/11

@acotrel - you know, for someone with a science background, you seem to have a real reluctance to actually do any research before making definitive statements about things you don’t really know much about.

You claim that “there is a link between high intelligence and schizophrenia” - and indeed there is, but not the one you think.  The higher your intelligence, the lower your risk of suffering from schizophrenia (or depression for that matter).  It took me two minutes on google to locate this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15066893?dopt=Abstract

Further, while bipolar and schizophrenia have traditionally been considered distinct illnesses because they follow different course and have different symptoms, there is evidence that both derive from similar genetic causes.  It’s just not as simple as arguing that stress causes psychosis.

acotrel says:

08:10am | 02/11/11

@marley
The article you’ve referenced is about IQ score related to occurrence of the illness.  IQ testing is based on psychology,  Scizophrenia is an emotional illness probably with a psycholocial cause.  Don’t you think the illness might affect an IQ test ? A person with schizophrenia is only able to function well at random times.  Were the tests taken before the people became ill ? - What a load of bullshit ?

acotrel says:

08:14am | 02/11/11

Marley
IQ tests don’t even work properly on ‘normal’ people.  And you seem to think you can establish an association by applying the same tests to the mentally ill ? Get real !
What I’ve said to you is effectively that people with high intelligence are more sensitive to life stress causing issues, and are thus more at risk !

Mayday says:

08:36am | 02/11/11

The greater the wisdom the greater the sorrow.

Kassandra says:

10:02am | 02/11/11

@ acotrel

Psychotic illnesses including schizophrenia are caused by disordered brain physiology, not stress, although stress amongst other things can trigger an episode. Counting all forms of psychosis, including various dementias, amounts to around 5% of the population affected at some time in their life. The figure of 20% applies primarily to anxiety, depression and substance abuse and whether this should count as “mental illness” is controversial.

Marley is correct that the popular notion of a link between genius and insanity is a myth. Also the “diagnosis” of famous historical figures is known as “spooking” and is invalid. It is highly unlikely that any of the people you nominate suffered from schizophrenia.

James says:

11:02am | 02/11/11

@acotrel
Manic depression and schizophrenia are not a spectrum of the same disease. Bipolar is what you’ve termed manic depression.
Schizophrenia is classified as a psychotic disorder whereas bipolar, depression etc are classified as mood disorders. They are very different in terms of symptoms, treatment, causes and physiology.
As stated above, these are brain related disorders and cannot be attributed to psychological factors such as stress.

marley says:

12:37pm | 02/11/11

@acotrel -  do you understand the term “premorbid?”  The IQ tests were conducted BEFORE any of those tested became ill. 

If you’d bothered to read the report, the IQ tests were done on 50,000 Swedish army recruits at the time of conscription, when all of them were perfectly healthy. 

The authors then followed up on the medical histories of the 50,000 men over the next 27 years.  They concluded that those with the lower IQs had a higher risk of schizophrenia and depression, but not of bipolar disorder.

As for your theory that schizophrenia is a psychosocial disorder, then how do you explain the genetic linkages?  Stress doesn’t affect your genetic makeup.

stephen says:

08:28pm | 02/11/11

I think the relationship between smartness and mental illness is over stated.
The smarties you mentioned were odd, and possibly only Schumann was clinically obtuse, (I defer to Van Gogh’s diagnosis - I’ve recently saved up and bought his ‘Letters’ - I don’t think he was mad) yet where we live now should, for the sake of differences and fun - hell, isn’t life so mechanical - excuse all but the malignant.

Birdie says:

10:18am | 02/11/11

profoundly true, sadly.  the out-of-hours support is even worse than the in-hours support, which is pretty dreadful here

as a person with mental illness myself I can relate to your fear and horror at the lack of support - please listen to your daughter, and then again listen to her;  talk with her and get her what help you can, please try not to judge her -

ts says:

11:06am | 02/11/11

@birdie

yes we will keep trying and we certainly dont judge her - there is no way anyone would *want* to act the way she does occasionally. we have had her (and us) attend both private and public psychological counselling to try to get to the bottom of it (it began when she was about 7 with a sort of compulsive defiance issue with teachers) but still no answers.

added to everything else is the fear that one day DOCS will take her away from us on the assumption that its rooted in family problems.

in the end I dont know whether we will ever get an “answer” and we’ll need to keep on going, trying to be there for her and to minimise the damage she might otherwise do to herself.

magpie says:

03:03pm | 02/11/11

@ts You can take your daughter to a GP, where under the Mental Health Care Plan the GP can make an initial assessment of risk and then refer her to the appropriate care provider, whether that be a psychiatrist, psychologist or emergency.  If she is referred, she can claim Medicare rebates on a certain amount of the sessions she has.  Out of hours support is you taking her to an emergency department, or calling the police/ambulance.  She will be assessed by a trained doctor or emergency response personnel, depending on the situation, and then appropriate referral or support will be given.  I am a social worker working in Queensland Health, so all of this information is appropriate for your situation.  A google search of ‘GP mental health care’ will give you much more information.  Also, I can say with a great deal of certainty that if you do everything you can to help your daughter, you will have nothing to worry about with the Department of Communities - Child Safety.  They are actually there to help, and professionals are usually fairly quick to understand the difference between a young person who is experiencing some personal issues, to one who is at high risk of experiencing harm, abuse or neglect by her parents or caregivers.

ts says:

07:35am | 03/11/11

@magpie

sorry for the belated reply. thanks for the information and advice. she is current seeing a child psychologist and for the most part things are being controlled however there are good times and bad and the bad times can be very bad. and unfortunately it quite often occurs out of hours which can be stressful not only for her but my younger daughter and wife.

Old Cobber says:

10:55am | 02/11/11

C M D has been around forever,early symptomsbeing hair growth on palms and diminished sight.  More dangerous is the PUNCHWRITER Attention Deficient Seeker [PADS]  When combined CMDPADS is very serious as exhibited by someone called"ACOTREL”    The only cure isconstant exposure to hours of Gillard droning and subliminal flashes of Abbott scurging the Lodge.

acotrel says:

10:09am | 02/11/11

You are not wrong Mick.  There is a contradiction between the cult of the individual, and the concept of self-managed workgroups, and politicians and employers are exploiting it.

ts says:

09:34am | 02/11/11

James

couldnt agree more. the youth liaison policewoman was very empathetic. its just a shame that it comes down to the police “policing” the mentally ill when there should be more resources available to deal with them.

granted there is no guarantee that the person may not become violent however I feel that a police presence would only exacerbate the likelihood of violence. in this instance we made the call that it would only inflame the incident so we locked ourselves in our rooms for the night until it blew over.

note I have just found out that in brisbane city there is an after hours service for mentally ill youth. however they only cover until 9:30pm mon-fri, sat evenings until 9:30pm and not at all on sunday. the advice outiside of those hours is to contact your local hospital.

if only mental illness was a 9-5 thing.

acotrel says:

10:33am | 02/11/11

@ts
In my opininon police involvement is correct procedure, and also the Mental Health Act correct in its provisions. What is not correct is the way the Gillard government has moved the emphasis away from counselling services.  Drugs are important, but underlying issues must be addressed.  We need more trained clinical psychologists.

Pudel says:

12:09pm | 02/11/11

Ts, in my experience we have found the local ER is very helpful, they were able to callin mental health practitioners.  They also have in our instance a private waiting room which is quiet and removed from the comings and goings. 
Calling the police, or Ambulance can help speed up the process of being assesed for a family.  I have found VicPol, and QLD Police helpful when I have needed them.
I will say though if admission is required a voluntary admission is much easier on all involved, which is why we have gone the ER route when we can.

ts says:

01:12pm | 02/11/11

thanks all

my original post was only a quick off the cuff comment on the state of resources and in return I’ve got all this useful advice that hasnt come our way any time in the past. thank you very much once more.

MikeS says:

11:03am | 02/11/11

Can you provide evidence for this?

marley says:

12:49pm | 02/11/11

@acotrel - well, you know, I googled “cure for schizophrenia” and got a lot of results.  Half the hits came from reputable sites on mental illness, and they all stated that, while schizophrenia can be treated, it cannot yet be cured.  That’s because of the genetic basis, I suspect.  The other half came from alternative medicine sites and all offered cures, none of which were consistent with one another, or supported by any clinical testing.  Now, you being a scientist and all, which sites are you going to trust?

James Ricketson says:

09:49am | 02/11/11

Hear hear, Steve. Let’s say one in five Australians visit their doctor in any one year with an illness. What does this statistic tell us? Not much. One might have a the flu and another terminal cancer. Lumping them all together under the heading ‘illness’ and thereby giving the flu sufferer the same status as the cancer sufferer is just plain silly. As for depression, all forms of it these days are lumped into one category for public consumption. Does anyone ever get sad these days? One rarely if ever hears of someone being ‘sad’ – I suspect because sadness cannot be treated with pills. Depression, on the other hand, is a mental illness that drug companies, therapists and psychiatrists can make a good living out of. Yes, there are people who suffer from debilitating depression and require treatment but I wonder how many people suffering from common and garden sadness (an appropriate response to life’s vicissitudes) are diagnosed with depression and treated accordingly?

acotrel says:

10:21am | 02/11/11

@Steve I always have doubts about people who claim to be perfectly sane. Perhaps it’s a sign of delusion caused by extreme conditioning ? None of us are in a position to judge the mentallly ill.

Kassandra says:

10:21am | 02/11/11

I agree with much of this but it’s not the “medical industry” it’s the pharmaceutical companies mainly who are responsible. The proper “treatment” for sadness, catastrophic misfortune or overwhelming stress is psychological (of which there are several orthodox kinds) but rebadge this as “major depression” and hey presto! it’s an “illness” for which you are told you should have antidepressants. The evidence that these drugs work for severe depressive illness, called melancholia these days, is quite good but the evidence for effectiveness in other forms of depression is very weak to non-existent. Likewise people who are nervous and easily stressed now have a variety of anxiety disorders and children who are disruptive, inattentive or restless have “ADHD” or worse “bipolar” disorder. Again the evidence for effectiveness of drugs in these conditions other than in the very severe cases is non-existent yet they are widely prescribed to mostly non-severe cases.

It has reached the stage now where pharmaceutical manufacturers can manufacture new diseases for the treatments they are marketing. The money involved is staggering.

AngelaM says:

11:32am | 02/11/11

Steve, I think it is useful to acknowledge that distress and suffering is indeed part of the human condition. However, the diagnosis of a mental illness, such as major depressive disorder, acknowledges an experience that is markedly different from our everyday suffering, and needs to be provided by a trained and qualified professional. This diagnosis is based on the presence of a range of symptoms, which need to be present for a particular length of time. In the case of a major depressive episode, this is of at least a two week period. It also goes far beyond a depressed mood, to include physical and cognitive symptoms, sometimes including suicidal ideation. These symptoms also need to significantly impact on the person’s relationships, social and/or occupational functioning. This is something well beyond the ‘everyday sadness’ which we all experience at times, and is part of the human condition.

Kate says:

04:20pm | 02/11/11

I agree Steve, and a doctor worth their salt will not diagnose a patient with a mental illness unless, like Angela says, the person presents with a level of anxiety, depression or paranoia that is above and beyond what could be considered a normal part of the human condition.
If you’ve just experienced a death in the family and are feeling upset, that’s sadness. If you wake up feeling unable to get out of bed every day, want to commit suicide and have no idea why, that’s probably a depressive disorder.
On a personal note, I have obsessive-compulsive disorder and it really irritates me when people self-diagnose that because they’re really organised or they don’t like people messing up their things. To be medically diagnosed with OCD, it has to impact your life to the point where you are unable to perform normal tasks, or it ruins your quality of life. Come back to me when you’ve refused to meet friends for dinner or go to work because it might disrupt your routines and then I’ll accept you have it.

acotrel says:

10:26am | 02/11/11

@JG
Do you believe Abbott is sane ? And are you free of delusion and in a position to judge?  The whole neoliberal ideology is suspect, and we are probably all being sold a bill of goods.

marley says:

12:53pm | 02/11/11

@acotrel - I’ve had enough.  This is a serious subject, worthy of much better than your uninformed comments and anti-Abbott tirades. 

There are people who are genuinely suffering from real mental illness, and who are struggling to find the support and help they need.  Some of the comments above reflect the issues facing parents of people with nascent mental illness.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

fairsfair says:

03:00pm | 02/11/11

Well said Marley. I think a lot of people have had enough when you see the performance on this thread today.

It goes so much further than just disrespectful and insulting.