Everyone has the human right to freedom of religion and belief. But often religion and belief can be used as grounds for discrimination and as weapons of division and hate. As a nation, we need to make sure that this does not happen.

Christian or secular? Which one is Australia?

Over the next three weeks there are two very different religious conferences being held in Australia. One is the Parliament of the World’s Religions conference in Melbourne, with the theme, ‘Making a world of difference: Hearing each other, Healing the Earth’. The other, this weekend, is the National Conference for all Concerned Christians in Sydney, themed ‘Australia’s Future and Global Jihad’.

Australia is a nation of many religions and beliefs. Some people say we are a Christian nation. More often than not, we are described as a secular nation. But which is true? And why, if at all, does it matter?

The answer is that it shouldn’t matter. However, increasingly, we are finding that it does. It seems to matter more and more as world events act to shape our society and influence our community, as our population grows and more and more of our citizens come from other countries and cultures.

The claim that Australia is a secular country is based on a couple of facts. Firstly, and to get technical, it is because section 116 of our Constitution states that parliament cannot discriminate against people because of their religion. It also says that religion must not be a prerequisite for office, nor can the state establish or promote any particular religion.

The second is based on what could be described as our rather relaxed attitude towards institutional religion and scepticism towards its more austere expressions. Australian census data over the last century indicates that Australians are becoming decreasingly Christian. Church attendances - across all denominations - are generally falling, and we increasingly claim to have ‘no religion’.

This does not necessarily mean that we are less religious. Many Australians continue to have a sense of the spiritual, or they express their faith privately, or outside of institutional settings. But it is a fair observation that Australians, like many Europeans, enjoy a somewhat secular outlook on life.

As Australians, this might give us a feeling that secularity is ‘normal’. It isn’t. Across the world there has been a massive resurgence in religious belief.

The 21st century world, many argue, will not be increasingly secular. Our reality is likely to be increasingly religious. And not only will it be more religious, it will be more culturally diverse.

There are also a number of compelling global demographic facts at play. Populations are growing rapidly. This growth is primarily Asian and African. Wealthy ‘western’ nations are facing population decline or stagnation.

This means significant migration into these countries, including ours, will be necessary for their future economic and social functioning. And ever-increasing processes of globalization will only encourage cultural, economic and social exchanges through the movements of racially, linguistically, ethnically and religiously diverse peoples.

These are neither good nor bad facts. Their consequences will only be understood once we see how religion and culture come into the picture. And this will depend upon both the way our political leaders provide moral leadership on these issues, and how our citizens adapt to a radical increase in exposure to this diversity.

Increasingly, we are seeing our political leaders talking about their personal faith. Unfortunately, however, we are not hearing them talk as much about respecting diversity, multiculturalism or saying ‘no’ to race hate.

Inevitably, there will be a range of reactions and a great diversity of views. Many of the mainstream Churches are already engaged in these changes, seeing great opportunities to attract new converts and to minister to the needs of people, regardless of racial and cultural difference.

Religion, as is often forgotten by those without religion, has its roots in compassion, reciprocity, charity and peace-building.

But religion, like political ideology, can also have its dark side in the form of hate, exclusion and fanaticism.

Respecting the importance of these issues and the role that faith plays in the lives of many people, the Australian Human Rights Commission and our partners are conducting research into freedom of religion and belief in Australia. These freedoms are complex and sensitive.

Certain individuals and small and religiously conservative organizations have expressed alarm about conducting this social research. And small cogs can often squeak more loudly than the hum of a big engine.

At one of the conferences held this weekend – not surprisingly, the one with ‘Jihad’ in its title - some of the extremist voices from the ultraconservative fringe will gather and pretend that they represent a Christian, if not Australian, majority.

This is a free society, of course. And these people have a right, like any body else, to express a view - so long as this does not incite violence, or defame people.

But it is imperative that these views be seen in perspective by we, the ‘average majority’, which they will certainly claim to represent.

The world is changing. Australia is changing. The demographic, social, economic, cultural, political and ecological facts scream this at us, every day.

If we are to have a peaceful, respectful future, then all of us must learn to make a leap of faith and trust.

Demonising religions, such as Islam, spewing forth hate about gay people and vilifying women who want some control over their own bodies – for example – may make for entertaining, alarming stories in the media. But hate and moral vanity should always be called by its name. Only in that way can we hope to build a civil society.

Religion has, and will, have a critical role in doing this. But it will be the religious voices of love and acceptance that will contribute to a right and just future.

55 comments

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    • RT says:

      05:10am | 20/11/09

      Of course we are not a secular nation. Many of us are very attached to His Noodleness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://www.venganza.org/

    • Eric says:

      06:57am | 20/11/09

      “Demonising religions, such as Islam” —this seems to be code for telling the truth about the Koran and Islamic doctrine.

      You seem to be demonising some Christian groups yourself, by accusing them of being hate-mongers. You don’t name them, but we all know what you mean.

    • Dan says:

      07:10am | 20/11/09

      Telling the truth Eric? Right, whatever you say. The truth is you don’t know the first thing about Islam or the Koran. The truth is that if people ‘tell the truth’ about men, you accuse them of being misandrist! The truth is that what you refer to as ‘truth’ (comparing practising Muslims to practising Nazis) is racism of the most extreme degree! You’re a hypocriticial fool, and it’s people like you that give this nation a bad name!

    • Gibbot says:

      07:35am | 20/11/09

      A well written and timely article, Graeme, as Eric’s comment clearly demonstrates. It’s sadly ironic that those who most loudly condemn Islam most resemble its extreme aspects. From a vantage point outside of religious belief it is often very hard to tell the difference.

    • Rob says:

      07:46am | 20/11/09

      I stopped believing in the tooth fairy when I was a little kid, why do so many others continue to believe in, and waste so much time (and $$) worshipping, a fictitious being?

    • Pete says:

      07:53am | 20/11/09

      Your comment:

      Give the guy a break. He simply has an imaginary friend to talk to, that’s all.
      The fact there are fewer and fewer who do, should compel the rest of us to let him and his like have most of the pavement when they shuffle past, mumbling to themselves about what they can’t eat, say, do or think. Oh yes, and what their wives, can’t wear

    • Budz says:

      08:23am | 20/11/09

      So Eric, you haven’t read the Old Testament? Plenty of stuff in there that hardly hold up today’s values.

    • Fin says:

      08:38am | 20/11/09

      I’m glad I read this post early, and so won’t have to read it later in the day when it is overrun by people commenting - no doubt, mainly those who take the most blinkered view of religion and are totally unaware of just how unfunny their witty throw-away lines are.
      Feel free not to post a comment if it’s going to be in that vein any pseudos reading this. We’ve all heard them before.

    • Douglas says:

      08:43am | 20/11/09

      Eric,
      Is Absolutely Correct. Your pursuit of “Keating’s” Politically Correctness is very sad. You do not need to study World History & Current facts to realise that the Luciferian Cult of Islam, Is Just That. And has No Tolerance or Acceptance of the Core Principals of Christian or Western, Especially Australian Culture & Society. Despite the fact that there may be many “good” “ordinary” (Who have no say in their future) people living under the Demonic Deception of the Cult of the Arabian moon god.
      Don’t be Fooled by the Sanitised (& Uncontrolled ) editions of Lucifer’s Koran being handed out to politicans & media.
      Australia may well be a Multi-Racial, country.
      But it can Never become a Multi-Cultural (Fragmented) country.
      Our “Australian” Culture & Constitution, was established “Under Almighty God” and is “Not Negotiable !!!.

    • Liz says:

      08:50am | 20/11/09

      Unfortuantely hypocrisy , rigid mindedness and expoitation too often go along with religion.

    • Old Bert says:

      08:59am | 20/11/09

      “Religion, as is often forgotten by those without religion, has its roots in compassion, reciprocity, charity and peace-building.” Wrong, the definition of religion started when humans, at the mercy of the nature’s catastrophic forces, pestilence, etc, made offerings to the gods for relief from these forces, the sun, the wind, the water, volcanic activity, and so on. There’s no evidence there was a social aspect until contemporary times. Humanity has always had conflict, but religion has raised the benchmark. Unfortunately, there won’t be a “peaceful, respectful future”. Why?  Because of ever-increasing human greed and need for survival, in turn leading to the need for dominance of one religion over the other. Personal ethics has far more importance than religious dogma, given that corruption is often the result of religious leadership.

    • DG says:

      09:12am | 20/11/09

      *Warning long post*

      Is Australia a Christian Nation?

      No. Simply put we are not. The vast majority don’t participate in their ‘religion’ they are, at best, lapsed in their faith - more likely they are apathetic (this apathy grows from a divergence from the teachings of the Church, whether it be of divorce, contraception, homosexuality or any other issue).

      To suggest that this country is run by or for the Christian faith is plainly untrue. Constitutional issues aside - if we look at religious participation (rather than self reporting ,which is inherently unreliable on perceived issues of morality) we find that the vast majority are, in practice, non-theistic.

      Now, I do not deny that our culture has it’s roots planted firmly in Christianity (the dominant faith at the time - in practice) but it is clear that this is no longer the case. Where was a time when the first thing that was built in a town was the church, now it’s the school.

      But to get to the point :

      “Religion has, and will, have a critical role in doing this. But it will be the religious voices of love and acceptance that will contribute to a right and just future. “

      I don’t think that’s true. As you have said the church is “seeing great opportunities to attract new converts”, but is not being successful in doing so with the existing population. Perhaps it is more appropriate that the church, instead of seeking new converts (and this is true of all religions), accept that they have no monopoly on the path to a “just and right” future. The first step could be to accept that they do not have a critical role in building a civil society.

      With their ever decreasing relevant in Australian society, perhaps it is time for religions -large and small - to accept that they are increasingly irrelevant to a large portion of the community.

      That is not to say that Religions do not have a role to play - I agree whole heartedly that religions should cease “spewing forth hate about gay people and vilifying women who want some control over their own bodies” and that the true leaders of the faith should name and Shame those members of the faith that espouse such hateful views on behalf of the religion. Perhaps in doing so we can together - the voices of love and acceptance of all people, not only those of Faith - will contribute to a right and just future.

    • Paul Horn says:

      09:19am | 20/11/09

      You are such an apologist to the 60’s liberal elite counterculturalist feminazi deviates that presently dominate the social policy agenda! Why is it that nobody ever ever ever criticises the utter desolation and destruction that truly atheistic and secular philosophies wreak upon their populations.

      Communist Russia and China, the great poster children of the atheistic tradition wrought more havoc, starvation and death upon their populations in 50 years than all the so called religious wars combined. The incredible thing though that with many so called religious wars many of the worst perpetrators had no religious inclination whatsoever, only a desire to further their own material gain!

      Let us not forget that our freedoms, individual rights and respect for the common man is indelibly rooted in the Christian tradition. It is this faith and belief that has enabled our democratic institutions to flourish and none other!  Atheistic philosophies and the slavish worship of everything secular brings nothing but spiritual and material starvation. The proof is in front of you - undeniable and stark!

      Argue that one my inner city elite brethren!

    • Terry says:

      09:35am | 20/11/09

      Well done Eric for totally missing the point of the article.

    • G says:

      09:40am | 20/11/09

      I too approve of his holiness the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

      May his pasta based existence bless my stomach / soul with rich tomato bolognaisey goodness.

      Now everyone take a knee and eat of his parmesan tentacle.

    • AdamC says:

      10:04am | 20/11/09

      So, Graeme, are you suggesting that this conservative ‘fringe’ is smearing Islam because of their interest in the ‘Jihad’? If that is the point, you could have been clearer. And you might explain why you think it is appropriate to equate the Jihad with Islam in general. Thankfully, they are not necessarily the same thing.

      More importantly, Graeme, why is it OK for you to heap scorn upon an allegedly small religious minority (of Christians) but not OK for them to discuss their concerns about an (hopefully) equally small religious minority who apparently want to blow them up and impose strict Islamic law on everyone? Isn’t that something of an egregious double standard, Graeme? 

      One could say your agenda was showing, but that would be a statement of the obvious.

    • Chase Stevens says:

      10:04am | 20/11/09

      @Eric - There is just as much hate and violence in the Koran as there is in the Bible. Or don’t you count stoning your children as violence?

    • Barb says:

      10:09am | 20/11/09

      Australia is and will always be a Christian Nation. There’s no such thing as a secular nation in practise - either a nation is united by a religion OR a tyrannical government (see China, Cuba, etc). Anything other than these two systems leads to a dying society (see Britain, France, etc).

    • PeteJ says:

      10:38am | 20/11/09

      It is the social norm and that of the media to highlight the extremist views of any religion.  The voice of the average citizen of faith is seldom reflected in media or by those who oppose religion/s.  It is these average Joe’s of their faith who are often the corner stone to community value.  They quietly go about their faith and their duty to “love thy neighbour”. 
      Forget the extreme headlines look at the true persons’ of faith that have the ability to shape our nation, Paul Moulds and the Oasis project.  Hazem El Masri community work.  Teen Challenge Australia.  These few contributors to society are representative of the countles person’s of faith (& not of) that quietly go about their faithful duties and make our local communities if not country better. 
      Faith is not the enemy Australia wants it to be.  Yes there are extremist views but if we cease putting the mic up to those and start giving a voice to the unsung heroes who go about their daily business in their faith then perhaps our attitudes will change.

    • Susan says:

      10:43am | 20/11/09

      I think, Pete, you’ve completely missed the point. I honestly have no idea what Graeme Innes’ personal beliefs are based on this piece, he’s arguing for the fact that everyone has the equal right to believe (or not believe) as they see fit.

      There have been a lot of news articles, opinion pieces, political comment etc of late by people of different faiths, with a lot attacking those who do not share their views - in all directions (I refer you to the comments on Tory Shepherd’s article yesterday, for starters). I think the point of this article is that we should respect the views of others, not belittle them. Conversely, when speaking about our views either individually or as part of a conference/church/temple/whatever, we should never proclaim to represent the views of anyone beyond ourselves.

      This is not to say that there is no place for healthy debate about religion in Australia, but that participants should approach the debate with mutual respect and considered argument, and not the teasing (that is increasingly moving towards bullying) shown by some participants on all sides more recently.

    • Simon Ingram says:

      10:49am | 20/11/09

      I agree with Eric. The fundamental doctrine of the Koran is the call to wage holy war on those who do not follow Mohammed. You can write all you like about “the religious voices of love and acceptance” but if this is codespeak for accepting and being tolerant of “Jihad” or accepting and being tolerant of Sharia Law, then sorry, but no.

      European countries such as France and the UK are having this problem, with massive increases in Islamic immigration over recent decades leading now to loud calls for Sharia Law precincts (or as in the UK, some neighbourhoods have already become that by default and the police no longer venture there).

      The other issue is that many Christian organisations express concern that this Human Rights Commission “social reseach” will be used as backgrounding for removing chaplains from schools or banning churches/Christian schools from choosing to only employ Christians. In contrast to their title and mandate, this would be the Human Rights Commission actually removing rights from these organisations. This is unacceptable.

    • Sam says:

      11:29am | 20/11/09

      Good article… however, I’m in favour of putting every religion under the microscope rather than sweep it all uner the carpet in the name of love and understanding. I’d like to attack the religions without attacking their believers because they are merely well-intentioned and misguided in my view. If there’s one part of our democracy that I appreciate it’s the ability to call ancient ideologies into question and re-evaluate their credibility in the 21st century. Unfortunately for some religions, this means that the more they regulated in the past, the less we are likely to agree with them today. Dress codes that are imposed by undue influence are unlawful. Dietary limitations lack scientific credibility. Prayer timings, quotas and targets are spiritually unfounded and could be interprited as attempted brain-washing depending on the message of the prayer. So called spiritual leaders are sometimes delusional, and their places of work discriminate in favour of their own flok thereby feeding any societal divisions.

      The only valid religion as far as I’m concerned, is a personal one that doesn’t involve a building where you can meet like-minded individuals and plot world domination under the guise of a higher love. That’s a scam.

    • John A Neve says:

      11:40am | 20/11/09

      “Religion; belief in a superhuman thing that one is devoted”.

      So Australians are religous, we worship the almighty dollar.  All hail the dollar, the dollar is mightier than the sword, the dollar is mightier than the pen, All hail the dollar.

      Two world wars and many, many minor ones, prove religion is a crock of shit. It is better to love ones self than to love ones neighbour.

    • Paul Horn says:

      11:49am | 20/11/09

      Hey Liz as opposed to the idiocy, selfishness, bigotry and narrow mindedness of the secular feminist countercultural elite. Just look at that murderous social engineering policy foisted on Aboriginals by the Whitlam Government in the 70’s.  This has lead to nothing more than misery, poverty, suicide and degradation. Why hasn’t this leading light of secular perversity and his welfare praising minions been dragged before the courts and forced to answer for the devastating failure and degeneracy he enforced on a vulnerable people!!  Not too much criticism of this fool and his failed policies. Strange hey!

      Under church care they flourished and were far better equipped to deal with Western Society than they are today!  But of course all you hear from the press are the “supposed” isolated cases of abuse and deprivation.

      And to those idiots who question the morality of the Old Testament you obviously have never read it. Your bigotry and bias only serves to highlight your stupidity and ignorance! Right thoroughout the book there is a message of forgiveness and redemption to a corrupt and failed people.

      So how Old Bert do you account for the greatest and most catastrophic (and atheistic) political institutions of them all - Socialism / Communism.  Just think if atheistic secularism had been humanities guiding light from its inception one thing you can be sure of - the human race would have long been wiped from the face of the Earth!

    • Sam says:

      11:49am | 20/11/09

      @Amber…. I agree 100%. It’s the ideology that has to be questioned, not its victims. Remember that most people don’t choose their religion, they are born with it, and raised with it, and it begins to shape their thinking if they’re not exposed to plausible alternatives. It is our duty to our fellow human beings to present them with plausible alternatives and oppose the unacceptable portions of their faith framework.

    • G says:

      12:10pm | 20/11/09

      Look,

      We can all agree that the practice of religion is declining, especially young adults, and the ones who might identify with a religion, (for example the census data from 2006) is only due to historic family reasons, but don’t practice or really believe in it.

      Some Christians I have spoken to think that Scientology followers are quite weird in the belief of alien spirits and a ‘Supreme Being’.  But when you compare that to Christianity, the belief of a ‘Supreme Being’ and all the other stories (resurecction, virgin mothers, holy ghosts, parting of seas etc). 

      Then they are quite similar.  They both believe in a ‘Supreme Being’ who is invisible and hates you and loves you at the same time.

      So people, people, sit down and have a really good think about what it is you believe in. 

      An unseen super-awesome deity who likes to kick your ass unless you demonstrate otherwise and has world wide fights with this another deity who is pure evil. 

      It’s actually kinda crazy and the majority of the population think your wierd.

    • Mr Hyde says:

      12:13pm | 20/11/09

      OK, Paul Horn 10:19, you are on, with your challenge to dispute your contention that Christianity is somehow responsible for freedoms and individual rights.

      The Magna Carta, the French Revolution and the American Revolution - key events in the development of modern democracy, true? OK, in the American case, God made it into the Constitution, but in all cases, the revolts and revolutions were primarily secular and against church-based monarchies.

      AdamC, 11:04 maybe you are ultra-sensitive. If not, please quote where Graeme’s article ‘heaped scorn’ on Christians? He called a group of them ‘extremists’. That’s true, not scornful.

      Douglas 9:43, your frequent use of capitals Is Just Scary.

    • Terry says:

      12:33pm | 20/11/09

      The more educated a population becomes the less religious they become. Islam is coming out of areas of the world where people don’t have the same opportunities as us and their church, religion whatever takes the place of education.
      The world is getting smaller and people are getting wealthier and have a greater access to information, as a result all religions are suffering. Instead of pointing figures and forgetting what your own religions have done in the name of God. Try and show a little understanding and give people the benefit of the doubt, most people don’t take every word of the bible as the truth and I’m sure most Muslims are the same with the Qur’an.

    • Jeff says:

      12:39pm | 20/11/09

      The growing move away from the traditional christian church is not surprising. In a lot of respects the church has not kept pace with the real issues that face peoples every day life. People don’t want to be judged and condemned. Everyone needs love & acceptance. The church’s who can manage to express this are carrying out the mandate Jesus left, love God and love others.

    • Amber says:

      01:21pm | 20/11/09

      All of us, including myself, have a tendency to think that others are like us. That tendency is precisely our problem here. We Westerners grow up being taught tolerance and by extension we assume Muslims are also taught tolerance. On the contrary, the Qur’an teaches intolerance. Read it for yourself. (I posted a couple of links above.)

    • Guinness says:

      01:31pm | 20/11/09

      Amber, the important thing to remember about the Quran is that a lot of what is written is heavily dependent upon the context it was written in. The passage that states that no Muslim should be ‘friends’ with a non-Muslim was actually referring to the ongoing problem whereby Jews and Christians were pretending to convert to Islam and then abandoning the religion discredit it. The word ‘friend’ in Arabic can also be interpreted to mean ‘alliance’ which also reflects this. comments such as these are very specific to context which is why it is important to have a fuller understanding of the writings.

      “Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just.  (The Noble Quran, 60:8)”

      Additionally Muslims can marry Christians and Jews which would certainly suggest more than friendship.

      Moreso if Muslims were prohibited from friendship they would be unable to spread Daw’ah, which is inviting someone to talk about and understand Islam.

      I would be very careful about the website ‘thereligionofpeace’ as it is dedicated to being anti-Islam, therefore anything on it is going to geared towards that purpose.

      A point on the website says that there is a hierarchy of value placed upon Muslims and Non-Muslims- but I would put it to you that this is the same for any religion. Whilst Islam does not say that people should be treated badly if they are not muslim, it does say that Muslims are on the path of God. This is the same for Christianity and for Judaism.

      Whilst English translations are great so people can read the Quran it is important to remember that in Arabic many words have multiple meanings, so it may be good to look at various sources, talk to Muslim people about the verses and do independent research- also considering whether an interpretation logically fits in with other beliefs of the religion (eg non-muslims and muslims being able to marry but apparently not being able to be friends- the contradiction suggests that one of these interpretations is wrong and considering the commonality of the first (and other factors described above) I would suggest it is the second.

      Simon- there is nothing in the Quran that says that Muslims must live under Shariah Law. In fact Muhammed once advised his followers to take refuge in a Christian Kingdom (sorry I cant remember specfics). The term ‘jihad’ refers to a struggle, to striving to live the way of God. This is the religous duty- not declaring a holy war on all non-Muslims.

    • AdamC says:

      01:49pm | 20/11/09

      Um, Mr Hyde, I think maybe you should re-read the original article, especially the last third of it. (The first two-thirds is basically just guff.)

      But, just to get you started, here’s a extract from the second last paragraph: “Demonising religions, such as Islam, spewing forth hate about gay people and vilifying women who want some control over their own bodies ...”

    • ja says:

      01:52pm | 20/11/09

      Most Australians I know have religion… we worship at the altar of idiocy, and alcohol and apathy. 

      Well, we seem to anyway…

    • Amber says:

      02:07pm | 20/11/09

      Guinness, please point me to the passage that says, “thou shalt not kill” with no qualifications.
      You introduced the business about “friends” so I’m ignoring any conclusions you draw based on that.
      I cited the website as one analysis, not the authoritative analysis. I said in two posts that people should read the text of the Qur’an for themselves. Nevertheless, the website does make the same points as you regarding being careful about context and so on so I disagree the website is overtly anti-Islam, rather its focus is to draw attention to the notion that Islam teaches intolerance.
      Personally, I am disturbed by the relative lack of denunciation by prominent muslims of violent acts conducted in the name of Islam. I would feel much happier if the muslim community vehemently denounced every violent act conducted in the name of Islam.

    • IMHO says:

      02:07pm | 20/11/09

      I think we have to question this notion of ‘tolerance to different beliefs’. Where two beliefs are contradictory then at least one is wrong. It may be that both are wrong. Either way, to pretend that they are equally valid is nonsense. 

      The way forward for humanity in terms of peace and progress is for each of us to recognize that we are in fact not free to believe anything we want (for example, 2 + 2 = 5) and that the things we do believe are not sacred but open to discussion and dispute. 

      We must be prepared to abandon happily beliefs which are clearly wrong, and take less offence when someone challenges one of our cherished beliefs. This does not happen in religion because religious beliefs are out-dated, tribal, dogmatic, & easily offended by nature.     

      The way to peace and happiness on earth is to abandon all types of religious thinking rather than being more tolerant of it. 

      BTW when I say we shouldn’t be ‘tolerant’ of religious thinking I don’t mean we should go out and perpetrate violence against those with religious beliefs. 

    • IMHO says:

      02:06pm | 20/11/09

      I think we have to question this notion of ‘tolerance to different beliefs’. Where two beliefs are contradictory then at least one is wrong. It may be that both are wrong. Either way, to pretend that they are equally valid is nonsense. 

      The way forward for humanity in terms of peace and progress is for each of us to recognize that we are in fact not free to believe anything we want (for example, 2 + 2 = 5) and that the things we do believe are not sacred but open to discussion and dispute. 

      We must be prepared to abandon happily beliefs which are clearly wrong, and take less offence when someone challenges one of our cherished beliefs. This does not happen in religion because religious beliefs are out-dated, tribal, dogmatic, & easily offended by nature.     

      The way to peace and happiness on earth is to abandon all types of religious thinking rather than being more tolerant of it. 

      BTW when I say we shouldn’t be ‘tolerant’ of religious thinking I don’t mean we should go out and perpetrate violence against those with religious beliefs. 

    • DG says:

      02:38pm | 20/11/09

      Mr Hyde (01:13pm | 20/11/09)

      “OK, in the American case, God made it into the Constitution,”

      I think that you’ll find God didn’t make it into the American constitution - the word doesn’t occur. I think there is a reference to “the year of our Lord” but that’s about it.

      It’s often claimed that the US of A is a Christian nation because of the currency and the pledge but the closest they get is the first amendment which provides “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” - hardly a nation build on Christianity.

      Perhaps it is worth noting that references to God were first used on Paper money in 1957 and were included in the pledge of allegiance in 1954. Hardly at the time of independence or the creation of the US of A.

    • Adam Dennis says:

      02:51pm | 20/11/09

      Paul Horn - to say that Russia and China are “poster children of the atheistic tradition” demonstrates your fundamental misunderstanding of atheism. I have no faith in God - that’s what makes me atheist. There’s no tradition, there’s no holy book, there’s an absence of those things. Any historic failings you might accuse Russia and China of are far more easily ascribed to what they believed in - i.e. communism - than what they didn’t believe in.

      And then you finish by challenging the inner-city elite ... when it’s you who uses the phrase “60’s liberal elite counterculturalist feminazi deviates”, which I can only interpret as an effort to establish your own intellectual superiority. Your arguments fail the moment you descend to name-calling and illogic. Must try harder.

    • Jotun says:

      03:35pm | 20/11/09

      Paul Horn called the prominent Communist regimes of the 20th century ‘atheist secularism’. I had to laugh at the sheer idiocy of the term itself.

      There was nothing secular about Stalinism or Maoism - there was the no religion way or the highway. It was social engineering, quite the opposite of secular freedom in our country.

      It is important that people can practise their beliefs safely and without discrimination. Mr Innes was correct to highlight that the mudslinging between religions only fuels the fire that burns communities down.

      Personally, I think most religions all run round the most basic human morals & conscience anyway, it’s just rebranded, repackaged and put on sale for you, the consumer, to buy and sell to others. Enjoy while I study the Big Bang theory and natural selection. This is the beauty of secularism, thank you sir!

    • danielle says:

      04:58pm | 20/11/09

      Well said Amber.It seems in Australia you cant look to closely at Islam & its twisted ideals without being branded a rascist or a redneck.Personally, i dont care if you dont follow jesus(although i would prefer you do) as long as you dont follow Allah.I cant think of one thing positive that Islam has done for our country, but i can think of a many good things for Christianity(the ideals we built our nation on)

    • Paul Horn says:

      05:10pm | 20/11/09

      Adam, magnificient tautology if ever there was one! You see to believe in nothing is to believe! Because you cannot prove the non existence of God your belief is as much based on faith than any hand waving incoherent pentecostal - I believe God Botherers is the pejorative term used by the enlightened elite.

      Complete renunciation of religion and belief in God was a very strong part of the atheistic Marxist - Leninist package! This sick and perverted philosophy was openly hostile towards religious belief and can be seen in that vain to represent perhaps the first traditional atheistic political system. Increasingly strident attacks and outright hostility towards having faith in God are becoming very common today especially amongst the chattering classes! The ABC have hosted a number of speakers who’s hatred and contempt of religious belief and especially Christianity is extremely concerning.

      And as for you Mr Hyde the Magna Carta was the culmination of a system of law in Britain which had at its very core Christian tenets and beliefs. In medieval Britain Christianity helped forged the development of trial by juries and cases were tried in churches. The study and development of the law came about through the study and understanding of the Bible. Even though some of the punishments would be by todays standards barbaric they were infinitely more just than pagan societies where justice was completely devoid of rationality or fairness. 

      And Mr Hyde the British Westminster Parliamentary System preceeded the American Revolution. I would posit that this system has far greater influence on our present democratic system than the American Revolution ever did!
      But undergirding it all ie the basis of the belief in the inherent dignity of all men and the right of all to pursue both personal and religious freedom beat an unshakeable and unquenchable faith in Christ!  It was that faith that formed the cornerstone of our democratic freedoms and rights and which now has never been under greater attack than at any other time in the history of the Western world !

      I’ll leave it there! Good day to you

    • Dan says:

      06:39pm | 20/11/09

      Amber, you should do some research. Rather rthan go onto anti-Islamic website, speak to Muslims, talk to Islamic experts. Your conention that Islam preaches intolerance and is a different ‘ideology’ (it’s actually a religion) to Christianity and Buddhism etc… is nonsensce. You don’t know much about the religion at all. Do some research before spreading such ignorance!

    • Dan says:

      07:36pm | 20/11/09

      Douglas,’ Demonic Deception of the Cult of the Arabian moon god’? LOL. Oh, you were serious? What a joke.

    • stephen says:

      09:47pm | 20/11/09

      Religion is boring.

    • Sam says:

      05:45am | 21/11/09

      There is no leadership in Islam and members of the Islamic community (people who happen to be muslim) aren’t responsible for the behaviour of other people who happen to be muslim. It’s the least well organised religion of all the organised religions. And while Islam asks a person to obide by the law, it doesn’t condemn all acts of violence. Violence is justified in certain circumstances (according to Islam) and the voices you hear denouncing violence are coming from muslim people’s humanity not their Islam. Anyway, none of us muslims are interested in representing every other muslim because it’s a lousy job with no reward and no pay and nobody could successfully defend the Koran without the use of violence. The majority of muslims have made the choice to adhere to the law rather than their religious text (and they are opposed to each other - you’d better believe it). It’s not that Islam teaches or doesn’t teach tolerance - it’s not concerned with tolerance. It’s main aim is to “spread” - that’s it. Bring the joy of 5 daily prayers and prohibition to every corner of the globe! I have rejected it, and many muslims have too. But there are still many of us (I should now say “them”) who are still holding on, out of fear, or out of apathy, or maybe they really “think” Islam is a good thing.

      If you want to help them, ban Islam in Australia but give muslims the opportunity to live without it. If you don’t want to help them, then we need to blur the line between the ideology and its victims (them, not us).

    • harry says:

      11:35am | 21/11/09

      They still say the Lord’s prayer at the beginning of each parliament. Says it all for me.

    • Andrew Goff says:

      07:15pm | 21/11/09

      I have a question.

      Religions (all of them) claim to be the correct faith. Of course, if they can’t claim this then they really are as sensible as the flying spaghetti monster.

      Only one can be right. (or, as a concession to atheists, none).

      How can you possibly expect religious tolerance then? Every other religion is telling you that you are evil. Most that you will spend eternity in hell. Islam says to wage holy war; but so do most religions. What ‘s the surprise? How could you NOT?

      The “Christians” on here are calling for a war against Islam, while at the same time giving their reason as “Islam is calling for a war against Christians”. A humanist would say “You’re all insane”; but if you actually believe in Christianity or Islam then both calls are true, logical, and in fact inevitable.

      What am I missing?

      (PS “they started it posts” are bullshit. If you seriously think that then go read some history. But I would love to hear an informed theological reason for how such conflict can be avoided)

    • Dan says:

      08:22pm | 21/11/09

      Sam, ban Islam? You are an extremist. You also know nothing about the religion. Christianity and Judaism also condone violence in certain circumstances, but you wouldn’t know that would you? You also wouldn’t know about Islam’s views on just war. You also don’t seem to realise that Judaism is just as disorganised!

      I don’t know or care what your experiences have been but you are so Islamophobic and so extremist, it’s absurd. The fact that you don’t know anything about an ‘ideology’  you claim to hate (it’s a religion!) is even more ridiculous. But why am I surprised? Just like Eric and Amber, you are so focused on spouting racism that you don’t even bother to do any research!

    • Dan says:

      09:04pm | 21/11/09

      Sam, we live in a liberal democracy, not a fascist dictatorship. If you want to ban a religion, you’re in the wrong country!

    • funtihy says:

      11:20pm | 21/11/09

      There is only one question one needs to ask a religion. Or cult, if you wish.  Can members of the faith leave the group freely and follow another church.  By freely I mean not suffer in any material, legal, or physical way.  If the answer is anything but an absolute YES, that religion is dangerous and should be banned.  As a result, Islam, Scientology, and some Christian and Jewish sub-cults fail the test. Simple as.

    • SteveB says:

      03:03pm | 23/11/09

      harry says:12:35pm | 21/11/09

      They still say the Lord’s prayer at the beginning of each parliament. Says it all for me.
      ———————————————————————————

      Case closed!

    • Kate says:

      06:34pm | 23/11/09

      As much as I may be a very strong atheist and feel very strongly that religious opinion should hold no sway in a secular government - before we even look sideways at the topic of religion in Australian governance I think we should at first campaign to be rid of section 25 from our constitution.

      It’s a cultural and historical blight on our modern day mutlicultural nation.

      A shameful reminder of our past.

      If we had any real intention of moving forward and looking to prepare for the future, it needs to go first.

    • Adam says:

      10:59pm | 23/11/09

      Amber, as an atheist and a secuarlist I completely agree with you that Islam is not a religion like Christianity, Hinduism etc.

      Islam and its followers are the biggest threat to our secularism in the long-term, not Christianity. I think honest and rational opposition to Islam is something that the left and the right, atheists and Christians can agree on and work together with each other for once.

      And Dan - how is being anti-Islamic racist?? It’s not even a race, it’s a religion, which implies a choice. Plus it IS an ideology because its authority is supposed to cover all areas of life including economics and law - not just spirituality.

    • Sam says:

      03:08pm | 24/11/09

      @Dan, Islam opposes self-examination. It says “if the Quran says it, then that’s what the prophet meant, and if it doesn’t say it then it’s not part of Islam”. Nowhere does Islam encourage interpritation in the context of the day. However, with regards to Judaism, interpritation and contextual understanding is a deeply rooted tradition. The Rabbi’s role is to lead in the effort of understanding the Torah, whereas the Imam’s role is more concerned with reiterating the Quran’s passages “word for word” and sometimes delve into political and societal discussions that go along the lines of “look what is happening to these kuffar, it is because they do not follow the Quran”. There is a world of difference between Islam and Judaism because one is an attempt to understand a glimpse of God, while the other thinks it knows it all. No prizes for guessing which is which.

      If Islam had the Rabbinical tradition, then Islam wouldn’t be linked with extremism, not by a long shot. Conversely if it weren’t for the rabbinical tradition, Judaism could have been blamed for the actions of a couple of “naughty” Jews. It is the total absence of leadership in Islam, which is a core element of the religion (that no man can stand between you and your God), that is the cause of Islam becoming associated with extremism. Extremism could be curbed effectively with responsible religious authority (specifically - editting the religious text to reflect the attitudes of a modern muslim rather than an ancient one). How else is a modern muslim supposed to reconcile the attitudes expressed in the Quran with 21st century law and societal norms? Most simply ignore the text, but the ones that don’t can turn our world upside down.

      And Dan, you still haven’t provided us with your resume. I’m an authority on this subject, who are you?

 

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