Once upon a time, in city streets and in branch offices across the suburbs, people used to gather around with like-minded people who believed in the same things they did. Back then, these groups of people were called “political parties”.

And when we say party, we mean it

Members of these “parties” would debate the big issues. Then they’d pick their most convincing and articulate to be their leaders. Their leaders would slug it out over their visions for the future with the leaders of other political parties. In Parliament, in the press, on the streets.

That’s all passé. In 2006, only 1.3 per cent of the adult population were members of political parties. Political parties and political leaders are so 20th century.

Nowadays, we’ve got plenty of groups of people who stand for things. For instance, GetUp stands for progressive causes, the Conservative Leadership Foundation and the Institute of Public Affairs for conservatives, the Australian Conservation Foundation for environmentalists, the Minerals Council of Australia for mining executives.

All of them drive the national debate on the big issues, but none of them are political parties. And none of them are led by politicians.

This isn’t a good thing.

The thing with politicians and parties is that they get pulled up when they make mistakes. When they do things that a majority of people don’t think is in the national interest they get voted out. They can be held accountable by the press and the voters.

These political groups can’t. Because unlike parties, with their political platforms and well-known agendas, your average voter has no real idea who’s leading these organisations and why they want us to move in a particular direction.

We saw plenty of this in the carbon tax debate.

As the debate raged on the airwaves and in protests, we saw groups pop up against the tax, like the “Conservative Action Network”, and for the tax, like “Say Yes Australia” (best known for the Carbon Cate advertisements).

Your average voter surely saw their websites or in the latter case, their ads. But few people had any idea who was behind them and why they were advocating what they were. 

The reality is, there were some big, powerful, wealthy people driving these groups and the debate.

For instance, The Sun-Herald revealed on the weekend (although The Punch had already joined the dots months ago) that Liberal SA Senator Cory Bernardi was behind a bunch of supposedly grassroots anti-carbon tax websites, like the Conservative Action Network, some Facebook groups and conservative blog Menzies House. He’s provided the groups with resources and infrastructure through a foundation he runs. Your average voter would’ve thought the groups started in the community.

On the other side of things, you probably didn’t know that many of the country’s biggest green groups have been funded or provided with extensive resources by the same two wealthy philanthropists. Farmer Mark Wootton has provided the Australian Conservation Foundation, the Climate Institute and the Australian Youth Climate Coalition with extensive support. It’s the same story with another farmer, Robert Purves, and the Total Environment Centre, WWF and the Climate Group.

These examples raise a bunch of questions. Why couldn’t Bernardi have just started his groups through the Liberal Party, which he is a powerful member of? Why couldn’t the two farmers have just started a political party for climate action – instead of funding an umbrella coalition of groups that can only pressure politicians to create change?

Why do we have to create groups outside the system? What’s wrong with the system of political parties and Parliaments that we’ve already got?

At a time when we’re dissatisfied with the leaders of both major parties, it wouldn’t go astray to have some leaders with principles (right or wrong as they may be) out in the open, rather than behind the scenes.

144 comments

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    • Erick says:

      04:57am | 19/10/11

      I’ll tell you what’s wrong with the system of parties and Parliament’s we’ve already got - it limits the menu. If you support a party, you have to support everything the party does, whether you like it or not.

      Let’s hypothesise a man wants tough action on greenhouse gases, but also wants less restrictive labour laws. He could support the ALP or Greens and work toward greenhouse action, but it would mean he was also supporting more restrictive labour laws that he didn’t want. Or he could support the Liberals or Nationals, who would give him less restrictive labour laws, but that would mean sacrificing the greenhouse strategy he wants.

      Political parties just don’t offer enough options. The same goes for elected representatives - you just have to take whatever they choose to dish out, not what you want. As the electorates of Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott have learned to their displeasure.

      That’s why it’s better for individuals to support single-issue movements rather than political parties. Our hypothetical man can solve his dilemma by ignoring the parties, and supporting Greenpeace and the Business Council of Australia instead. Thus his money and efforts won’t be wasted on things he opposes.

      As for the electoral system, the solution here is citizens’ initiated referendums and proportional representation.

    • Daniel Piotrowski

      Daniel Piotrowski says:

      05:35am | 19/10/11

      Clever comment, Erick.

    • persephone says:

      06:02am | 19/10/11

      Or he could chose the party which was closest to his ideas, and work from within to change the policies he didn’t like.

      But that would mean work.

    • acotrel says:

      06:26am | 19/10/11

      @Erick
      ‘As for the electoral system, the solution here is citizens’ initiated referendums and proportional representation.’

      Have you seem the movie ‘The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer’ ?
      He was into democracy big time and ran referenda on every issue until the commoners got heartlity sick of the impost, and pleaded with him to become a dictator.
      Have you got those aspirations ?

      There’s been a wise saying ‘You can’t impose democracy, you can only make conditions right for it to happen’ !

    • Super D says:

      06:35am | 19/10/11

      @persephone - is that not exactly what happens every election?  Well aside from the working from the inside aspect - the last thing any major political parties want is grassroots participation and involvement.  The only recent example of grassroots action resulting in immediate change at the political level was the rolling of Malcolm Turnbull.  I can’t recall grassroots action ever affecting ALP policy - except as it is slowly tortured and modified through the conference system.

    • acotrel says:

      06:37am | 19/10/11

      @Persephone
      I am not a great joiner.  Associations tend to have a lot of internal politics, and people who assert authority.  Authoritarianism stifles creativity. I support the ALP because of their innovative/creative bent, and their excellent approach to developing Australa - I am not a member !

    • marley says:

      06:52am | 19/10/11

      On this one, I agree with Erick.  There is no political party in Australia whose platform is anything close to my own views on a variety of issues. 

      And while the idea of joining a party closest to my own views and working with it is attractive in theory, the lack of democracy within the parties, especially the ALP, makes that a non-starter from my perspective.  Why would I join a party which makes its decisions according to faction leaders and not according to the democratic will of the membership?

    • persephone says:

      06:54am | 19/10/11

      SuperD

      All parites are made up by individuals. These individuals make the decisions. If you’re not one of the individuals involved, you don’t get to make the decisions.

      The ‘party hierachy’ didn’t suddenly spring into being from some sort of primeval mud. They all started off as ordinary members.

      Believe me, working from within achieves far more than simply rocking up to vote now and then.

      actorel

      the next election is going to be critical to Australia’s history. Climate change, the NBN, health reform, etc etc will all be on the table.

      You don’t have to join, but make sure you’re involved!!

      Of course, all progressive thinkers in Indi have even more reason to work to unseat the Liberals next election, but it won’t happen unless everyone who wants Sophie gone puts some effort into actually making it happen.

    • Fran Smith says:

      07:00am | 19/10/11

      @ Acotrel - “I support the ALP because of their innovative/creative bent, and their excellent approach to developing Australa (sic)”. Thank you very much for providing me with a massive laugh to start the day! You should write comedies. I guess your one of the 26% left who still can’t see through the worst government in Australia’s history…

    • Joan says:

      07:14am | 19/10/11

      Acotrel: -  ALP 2011 politics/policies definitely bent .

    • Erick says:

      07:26am | 19/10/11

      @persephone - Spoken like a good little apparatchik. Sorry, if you want to support the ALP you’ll just have to support it yourself. I’ll lend my own time and money to people who actually support the issues that mean something to me.

      @acotrel. I don’t base my political opinions on movies. Movies aren’t real. Movies are made up. Movies. Are. Not. Real.

    • Spikey says:

      07:30am | 19/10/11

      Yeah - he can support Greenpeace and the Business Council, but the reality is he will get either and Labor or Liberal Government.  That’s where making a choice about fundamental beliefs (and there is a raft of difference between the two major parties) and then getting involved and arguing your case on an particular single issue comes in.  You won’t always get what you want - but you’ll have a greater chance of effecting change than in giving your hard earned to Greenpeace and the BCA.

    • acotrel says:

      07:39am | 19/10/11

      @marley
      ‘the lack of democracy within the parties, especially the ALP, makes that a non-starter from my perspective.’

      Have you read Greg Barnes’s book ‘What’s wrong with the Liberal Party’, -  the same internal controls exist there too.  Tony Abbott often makes the snide remark ‘we’re not Stalinist’, whenever there’s a bit of dissension in the camp.  It betrays his DLP style thinking, but it is also a move away from the truth.

    • acotrel says:

      07:43am | 19/10/11

      @persephone
      Sophie is safe from me.  My wife has threatened to divorce me if I become a politician.  That clinches it, I know my priorities.

    • gobsmack says:

      07:45am | 19/10/11

      Erick has pointed out why his earlier assertion that 88% of people voted against a tax on carbon at the last election is simply false.

    • acotrel says:

      07:48am | 19/10/11

      @Fran Smith
      The NBN is a stroke of brilliance, it holds so much potential for regional Australia.
      Can you name ANY major infrastructure project the Liberal Party has initiated ?
      The ALP has always been the party which will ‘spend a dollar to make a dollar’, and carry the political risk in the face of a bunch of negative luddites !!

    • acotrel says:

      07:59am | 19/10/11

      @Erick
      ‘I don’t base my political opinions on movies. Movies aren’t real. Movies are made up. Movies. Are. Not. Real.’
      Movies express ideas, and the one in that movie was not so silly ! It could have also been designed to manipulate, moving people away from the idea of referenda.

    • Erick says:

      08:14am | 19/10/11

      @gobsmack - I didn’t say that “88% of people voted against a tax on carbon”.

      I said that 88% of people voted for *parties* that promised not to introduce a tax on carbon.

      The fact that we got a carbon tax anyway simply illustrates my point that supporting political parties is useless.

    • Fran Smith says:

      08:20am | 19/10/11

      @ Acotrel - you are deluded if you don’t understand that the NBN is a massively overpriced white elephant. Still, thanks for giving me yet another laugh! You’re just the gift that keeps on giving! smile

    • Arthur says:

      08:29am | 19/10/11

      @acotrel. “I support the ALP because of their innovative/creative bent, and their excellent approach to developing Australa - I am not a member !”

      Give us a couple of functioning examples. Or is it just ideology?

    • gobsmack says:

      08:40am | 19/10/11

      @Erick
      “Political parties just don’t offer enough options.  The same goes for elected representatives - you just have to take whatever they choose to dish out, not what you want.”
      That being so, exactly what was the point of you bringing up the 88% figure?

    • acotrel says:

      08:46am | 19/10/11

      @Arthur
      Two functioning examples:

      The Snowy Hydro Scheme
      The Sydney Harbour Bridge

      The NBN is now beginning to function in a couple of places.

    • Peter says:

      08:54am | 19/10/11

      @Fran Smith
      Can you name ANY major infrastructure project the Liberal Party has initiated ?

      Still waiting for a answer not a personal attack.

    • acotrel says:

      09:00am | 19/10/11

      @Fran Smith
      ’ you are deluded if you don’t understand that the NBN is a massively overpriced white elephant’

      If you’d been alive in 1932, you’d have probably said that about the Sydney Harbour Bridge !  Your lot are still grizzling and making derogatory remarks about Jack Lang !
      If you want to criticise, first do something worthwhile yourselves !
      With the LNP, it has NEVER HAPPENED ! - Done nothing constructive EVER !

    • Steve says:

      09:05am | 19/10/11

      @Persephone

      The Party above all else, eh! 

      An individual has very little influence or impact in the Labor party because it is a wholly owned subsidary of the union movement. 

      A single factional warrier / union leader has thousands of votes to your one.  Not that the union members have voted to affiliate to the ALP.

      But cheer up. As the ALP has fewer and fewer members, your membership will have greater influence.

    • Arthur says:

      09:07am | 19/10/11

      @acotrel. “The Snowy Hydro Scheme
      The Sydney Harbour Bridge”

      I’ve now worked it out acotrel. You’re in a time warp.

      Quite a bit’s changed since the snowy and bridge.

      Just a couple of things that come to mind. The global population was less than a quarter then, Australia actually contributed to the world with wool, meat, resources and MANUFACTURING (that’s where we make stuff and sell it overseas and consume our own efforts as opposed to China’s). Australia still owned farms and companies. Half the country wasn’t on welfare. Politicians actually did what they thought was a benefit to the country, not what big business wants them to do.

      Incidentally, in nature it’s not in the interest of a parasite to kill it’s victim. If we make a parallel to Australians being the victim and big business being the parasite. Big business could learn a lot from nature.

      What Australia needs now is some really tough policies. Not waste, and not socialism. Well they’re the same thing. Not waste.

    • Mattb says:

      09:16am | 19/10/11

      @erick

      I agree with everything in your post but the first paragraph

      “I’ll tell you what’s wrong with the system of parties and Parliament’s we’ve already got - it limits the menu. If you support a party, you have to support everything the party does, whether you like it or not.”

      is a bit confusing.

      Why do you have to agree with everything the party does?. Isnt your life based around accepting that you can’t wholeheartedly agree with everyone on everything?. Surely you can accept policy you don’t completely agree with in order to get policy that you do agree with implemented?. It’s just a matter of accepting the fact that the world doesn’t revolve around you.

      I’ve voted both labour, liberal and green (green in the senate) in the past.
      I voted for the GST. I found no fault with work choices, I got a better deal out of AWA’s in my workplace, yet I didn’t vote liberal in 07 or 10 because I’m also an environmentalist (I have a uni degree in environmental science/ management) who believes in climate change and I just don’t believe the liberal party has ever been serious about policy implementation when it comes to climate change. There’s been many other policies from all sides of politics that have made me change m vote in the past. I’d always vote for a NBN. I agree with the liberal industrial reforms. I dont believe the second round of stimulus was necessary or particularly effective.

      Who am I going to vote in 13?, who knows?. I’ll make that decision based on the policy platforms put forward in 2013. I agree that the ‘menu is slightly limited’, but hey, what are you gonna do about it?. If you erick, decided that you were going to form your own political party do you honestly believe your going to surround yourself with a party faithful that agrees with everything you do?, and that the people that were to vote for you would do the same?

      Do you cast your vote based on your faith toward a particular party, whilst ignoring their policy platform, or based on the policies put forward by all parties?. If you do the former, then its YOU that ‘limits’ your options, not the system.

    • acotrel says:

      09:28am | 19/10/11

      @Arthur
      ‘What Australia needs now is some really tough policies. Not waste, and not socialism. Well they’re the same thing. Not waste.’

      What Australia needs now is encouragement to have more faith in itself, so that you young guys step up to the plate and do your bit !

      Tough policies are only a disincentive, and they don’t help produce any reasonable outcome.  You could cut out all welfare tomorrow, and all that would happen would be the economy would collapse, and we’d have a revolution, when all the kids in the mortgage belts began to starve and lose their homes.
      Fortunately we live in a democracy, and most Australians don’t blindly accept the authority of idiots.

    • andye says:

      09:32am | 19/10/11

      @Fran Smith - The NBN is awesome. It is absolutely the most future-proofed technology. Lots of fibre is also going to support the growth in wireless. Australia is large with a small spread out population. If we want to guarantee services to all Australians, we cant rely on private enterprise. This is the reason your current copper network is also a monopoly.

      Right now we have an aging copper network that is delivering internet well beyond what we once thought were its limits. It may be possible to squeeze more out of it, but there are diminishing returns. Meanwhile, the projected growth in usage needs to be met by something. Even if we wanted to keep using the copper network, any Telstra engineer will tell you it would require a major nationwide overhaul and that the general maintenance of the aging network is extremely expensive.

      There are also a bunch of problems with copper, especially at the speeds with have reached. The length of copper that works at increasing speeds is shorter and shorter. Copper has interference between wires, whereas you can safely bundle a whole mess of fibre together and they wont interfere with each other.

      We have unique problems here, and any project to connect us all is going to be big. Fibre is the technology that will continue to bee of the most value and be most upgradeable for the foreseeable future. It is really as smple as that.

    • St. Michael says:

      09:53am | 19/10/11

      @ persephone:

      “Or he could chose the party which was closest to his ideas, and work from within to change the policies he didn’t like.

      But that would mean work.”

      What exactly do you mean by ‘work from within’, Perse?

      Surely you don’t mean factional powerbroking, branch stacking, doing deals with other powerbrokers, “You scratch my back, I’ll compromise my outwardly inviolate principles for the sake of a few votes on the party’s internal committees?”

      You didn’t say “persuade other people to your point of view by logical argument.”  I can understand why, because that would have been entirely silly given anyone with half a brain knows political parties don’t work like that.

    • Aitch B says:

      09:54am | 19/10/11

      @Peter

      Why are you waiting for an answer? You didn’t ask one.

    • Peter says:

      10:14am | 19/10/11

      Aitch B says: 10:54am | 19/10/11

      @Peter

      Why are you waiting for an answer? You didn’t ask one.

      Question was dodged, simple as that.

    • Arthur says:

      10:47am | 19/10/11

      “What Australia needs now is encouragement to have more faith in itself, so that you young guys step up to the plate and do your bit !”

      Is that a joke acotrel? Step up to the plate? The best career path for a young bloke is on the dole. Government housing, free money, free medical, free tattoos, free legal aid, free kids, free, free, free, free.

      If I wanted to educate myself (hypothetically as I’m not young), I’d have a hecs debt, if I wanted to buy a house I’d need to have two incomes and pay it off over 30 years. When the LNP get back in they’ll try and screw me. In fact LNP don’t have to get back in for me to be screwed because Labor do it now too.

      “Tough policies are only a disincentive.”.................. The only tough policies that presently exist do screw you. That’s what need to change. Stop screwing the workers, retain Australian assets and get people off welfare. Stop immigration and train Australians for Australian jobs. Anything else is a steady and unsustainable decline.

      “Fortunately we live in a democracy, and most Australians don’t blindly accept the authority of idiots. “.....................

      On the contrary acotrel. We live in a democracy and there are only idiots in authority.

    • BOmb78 says:

      12:12pm | 19/10/11

      @ Peter: so who was in power in Queensland when the original Gateway Bridge, the freeway connecting Australia’s third and sixth largest cities, Sanctuary Cove and Hamilton Island precincts, and the Wivenhoe and Hinze Dams were built? There was also a completely new airport for Brisbane in their too, but that was from Hawke in the 80’s, but the planning began in the Fraser years.
      We had a conservative government in Queensland for over 30 years, and despite what southerners might think about Queensland, it didn’t sit still from the 1950’s until Goss became Premier.

    • palone says:

      12:28pm | 19/10/11

      Erick, you are a deft practitioner of the art of excellent foppery. Ergo, I suspect, the quick response from Daniel of “Clever comment, Erick”
      And it was clever. Utterly deceptive, but clever.
      You managed to sneak into your hypothesis a statement supporting the lie that Labor’s labour laws are restrictive, whereas the Coalition’s were less restrictive.
      Then you continued by suggesting that your “Golden Plan” is to not support any political Party but to support an ‘ideal’, such as the Business Council of Australia. Now you know, in your hypocrisy, that that particular body supports a political Party. And that some of that Party’s policies will not satisfy your “hypothetical” man. So, down the toilet with your “clever” comment.
      You will try to twist this of course, (you wouldn’t be Erick if you didn’t), so away you go.
      By the way, Abbott supports Greenhouse action. Remember. Well, he said he did.

    • Anne71 says:

      12:48pm | 19/10/11

      @Persephone - The Australian political landscape is littered with the dry, bleached bones of those who, as you suggest, tried to “work from within to change the policies he didn’t like.”

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      02:15pm | 19/10/11

      @acotrel
      Maybe the reason that the LNP haven’t introduced many earth shattering infrastructure projects is because when they regain power they are too busy clawing all the wasted money back that the other mob spent! We will have a good example of this after the next election with the NBN! Nobody is against fast broadband, or indeed fast wireless, come to think of it, even fast ‘two tin cans and a piece of string’, it’s just that we realists can see how it can be delivered, even in this wide brown land, for cheaper than it is going to be now!

    • RyaN says:

      03:07pm | 19/10/11

      @palone: “You will try to twist this of course” are you serious? I mean did you actually read what you wrote before posting that statement.

      Pots and kettles come to mind.

    • frankr says:

      03:28pm | 19/10/11

      acrotel,
      by your own admission we need to go back 60 and 80 years to find anything useful your buddies have done, must give you a warm feeling inside

    • Mikeymike says:

      04:01pm | 19/10/11

      @ Erick

      ... which is why I support and vote for Senators Online.

    • persephone says:

      04:24pm | 19/10/11

      Erick

      I didn’t say people had to join the Labor party - I said the party which best represents them.

      For some, that’s clearly the Liberals.

      And suggesting that you join a party to change it is scarcely the advice of an apparchik, who would maintain that their party didn’t need changing!

      No, that doesn’t prove that supporting parties is useless. It may show that trying to change parties from the outside, rather than from within, achieves very little.

      Spikey - agree. Working for change is so much more satisfying than whinging.

      Actorel - I didn’t say you had to stand! I was suggesting you get involved.

      Fran Smith - not the expert opinion. In fact, the NBN is seen as a money saver and a generator of economic growth:

      The NBN will save the average person money:

      http://www.news.com.au/technology/movies-in-minutes-the-internets-fast-and-furious-future/story-e6frfrnr-1226169583039

      —cutting current internet bills by half.

      And, of course, it will deliver a host of benefits to users, as well as paying for itself fairly quickly and generating a profit in the long term.

      If it’s a white elephant, we need more of them.

      Steve

      I really can’t see how anyone can read my posts above and make that conclusion.

      Join any party you want to, I don’t care. Just get involved, rather than whinging about politicians letting you down and the parties not doing what you want them to do.

      As for the ALP - the beauty of it is, if you don’t belong to a faction, the factions have to court you for your vote. The more people who belong to the ALP, are active within the party and don’t join a faction, the more factions have to go cap in hand to them.

      So I don’t need a declining membership to enable me to get things done.

      St Michael

      well, I’ve had a lot of success with the logical argument approach!

      Factions are important when it comes to electing people to positions. They are less important when it comes to policy writing. It’s actually very easy to get good policy up through the Labor party system.

      If you think a party (and I don’t care which one you go for) is generally standing for what you want, but not quite, get involved and work for change.

      Ideally, don’t align yourself with any one group (all parties have factions!) but argue your case on merit. If you’ve done the research and can mount a good argument, chances are you’ll have good ideas accepted.

      Of course, if you don’t try, nothing changes. Except the whinging.

      Anne71

      far outweighed by the litter left behind by those who never even tried, but kept whinging anyway.

      Col

      A ‘realist’ would know that the Liberals broadband policy is an expensive and clunky solution, which sees the areas in most need of fast broadband the ones missing out.

      Turnbull, in his quest to destroy the NBN, has adopted Labor’s policy circa 2007. Give him a couple more months, and he’ll be spruiking an NBN.

    • St. Michael says:

      04:45pm | 19/10/11

      @ persephone:

      “well, I’ve had a lot of success with the logical argument approach!”

      Name one.
      Give me one policy shift by Labor you were substantially responsible for as a result of logical argument.

    • Anne71 says:

      05:02pm | 19/10/11

      So, Persephone, where and when are you running for pre-selection?

    • persephone says:

      07:20pm | 19/10/11

      St Michael

      sorry, I’m anonymous here. Can scarcely spill the beans on achievements and remain so!

      Anne71

      don’t think I don’t put my money where my mouth is.

    • acotrel says:

      08:47pm | 19/10/11

      @Frankr
      The snowey scheme was completed in the late 1950s or early 60s, and Menzies claimed the kudos..  That makes about 60 years max.  Regardless, it was never the Libs go!  Just as with the NBN they opposed the initiatives which were so critical to our future. I can only think of one project the Libs undertook in Vic. - the Clarinda Dam was built by Henry Bolte. Of course Jeff Kennett built the casino, and got mixed up in the dodgy tendering - it gave organised crime a big boost by providing opportunity for money laundering ! Also Federation Square - not exactly the equivalent of the Sydney Opera Houuse ?

    • Peter says:

      10:36pm | 19/10/11

      @MikeyMike
      Completion of the Adelaide to Darwin railway perhaps?
      They only tipped in 150m, the states(SA & NT) and territories ran the project. Construction was completed under labor governments for both NT and SA.

      Thanks for the link, interesting facts, i quote:
      During the Howard years, public investment in the nation’s infrastructure, as a proportion of national income, fell by close to 20 per cent,” the minister said.

      Or are you looking for infrastructure kicked off by the Liberals?
      Announcing ideas are just that, getting it done is what counts.
      See the current Victorian Lib government as a model of incompetence, they are asleep at the wheel.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:27pm | 19/10/11

      Oh, come on, perse.  You don’t think we haven’t figured out who you’re working for by now?

      Guess I can take your dodge as unverified and therefore of no weight in the argument if you won’t put your money where your mouth is on this one.

      But I’m happy to tell you I was in a union as well.  Once.  I had a very good education in “working from within” as the unions—who ultimately are the power—increase their base and make it less democratic.

      Did you want to tell them the mechanics of how union officials in branches gives unions a double vote at council, or shall I?

    • Mikeymike says:

      12:19pm | 20/10/11

      @ Peter:
      Your original question was “Can you name ANY major infrastructure project the Liberal Party has initiated ?”
      And in your reply: “Announcing ideas are just that, getting it done is what counts.”

      So what exactly do you want?  Your question was asked and answered and yet you still don’t like the answer.  And yes, investment in infrastructure dropped.

      Just because you don’t like the answer doesn’t mean you can shift your goal posts.

    • Slim says:

      06:17am | 19/10/11

      It just might be because whichever party is in power, corporations rule.

    • acotrel says:

      06:29am | 19/10/11

      @Slim
      If you have a victim’s mindset, you’ll be a victim !

    • Arthur says:

      08:50am | 19/10/11

      Enough acotrel.

      You surely can’t really live in this bubble. You’re winding us up aren’t you.

      Slim is 100% correct. Corporations rule. No doubt. Name a few initiatives that have the welfare of Australia in mind and not the welfare of the funders of the government of the day. Just a few.

      The carbon tax is both a massive benefit to big business and socialist policy.

    • James says:

      09:05am | 19/10/11

      @Arthur

      “The carbon tax is both a massive benefit to big business”

      Drivel pure and simple.

    • acotrel says:

      09:08am | 19/10/11

      @Arthur
      There are many ways an individual can change things.  One is by contributing to the standing commitees such as the one on law and justice.  Another is by participating in standards development, which is the basis of much of our legislation. A submission to the Productivity Commission on some of the issues can also help.  It’s called PARTICIPATION !

    • acotrel says:

      09:19am | 19/10/11

      @Arthur
      This might interest you. They are always looking for volunteers to comment on their new standards:

      http://www.saiglobal.com/

      It could help you to learn the system.

    • Arthur says:

      09:36am | 19/10/11

      @James.

      “Drivel pure and simple. “

      You can be sure James, if the majority of business were not going to benefit they’d have lobbied (effectively) against it.

    • Arthur says:

      10:53am | 19/10/11

      @acotrel….Unfortunately for me I’m from a demographic that would be drowned out in your idea of “participation”. We are not heard, not listened to, don’t matter. I am of course a white middle aged male.

    • James says:

      11:03am | 19/10/11

      Arthur says: 10:36am | 19/10/11

      @James.

      “Drivel pure and simple. “

      You can be sure James, if the majority of business were not going to benefit they’d have lobbied (effectively) against it.

      Did you miss all those amazing advertisements on TV?

    • Arthur says:

      11:20am | 19/10/11

      “Did you miss all those amazing advertisements on TV?”

      No I didn’t. They weren’t too convincing. A smart man like Turnbull aren’t advocating the tax for environmental reasons we all know don’t exist. There’s money in it for business or it wouldn’t be happening.

      If the environment were paramount the government would make meaningful policy, like reduce population. It’s about money, it’s about big business and self interest.

      Don’t think for a second I understand the mechanics of how business will benefit, but I’m old enough and wise enough to know when I’m right.

      Behind this tax is sleaze, money and greed.

      ALL at the expense and not the benefit of the environment.

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      02:39pm | 19/10/11

      @Slim
      Once had the chance to read a submission to the government from an automotive manufacturer that I was working for at the time. The government told industry that they wanted to increase the local content laws from 80% to 85%. My employer wrote back and said they had done the sums and it would no longer be profitable for them to manufacture in Australia. They said they would have to close down manufacturing in Australia, throwing 3000 people out of work and just restrict themselves to importing a couple of models, thereby only needing to employ a small sales force. Needless to say the government decided that it would prefer to keep many thousands, from all manufacturers in employment, rather that increase local content rules by 5%! wink

    • Arthur says:

      03:36pm | 19/10/11

      @Col. of Blackburn

      Why would the government want to change the local content laws that disadvantage? Can you elaborate what 80 to 85% would mean. At a glance, I’d think increasing the local content would be a good thing?

    • Emma says:

      06:19am | 19/10/11

      I classify myself as a small l liberal but I feel strongly for gay marriage so how can I join a party and change it within when most liberals are conservative bigots?

    • TChong says:

      06:28am | 19/10/11

      In that case Emma , you are mistaken to believe that a small “l ” liberal somehow equates to a big “L ” Liberal
      There is nothing socially liberal/ progressive about the Liberals.

    • Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo says:

      07:58am | 19/10/11

      Don’t join then… pretty simple really.

      Need help with what to eat for lunch?

    • Arthur says:

      02:26pm | 19/10/11

      “socially progressive”

      Australia is progressing all the way to bankruptcy.

      Let’s get gay marriage happening. Then let’s have a government that can concentrate on running Australia for everyone. There’s some really serious issues that need looking in to. Like everything worth anything being sold. Impending poverty and unemployment. Like an environment that will be soon beyond (if not already) repair. Like a horrendous over population.

    • Joan says:

      06:32am | 19/10/11

      It is easier for an indiviudual   to support single issue groups because they draw similarly minded people to drive just one issue, however society is more complex and made up of more than one issue and political parties represent and offer their respective solutions to problems /issues. The single issue political group or groups like Getup (progressive causes?laugh -says it all, doesn’t it ?)  are usually made up of fanatics or up-themselves types who think they know it all.. Anyone can run on a single issue platform and even a fish and chip shop owner can start a party. Even single issue people will find others who disagree on finer points of issue and how to go about resolving issue. Political parties offer options - if your idea is different you have to convince the rest with argument. Most people aren’t that passionate about politics- their passion revolving just around a single issue, so it is easier to rally people around a single issue than a party

    • acotrel says:

      06:44am | 19/10/11

      @Joan
      ’ Anyone can run on a single issue platform and even a fish and chip shop owner can start a party. ‘
      I wish you hadn’t mentioned that.  Her mindset occurs in many places, and to see it get a political start was distressing.  It makes me uncomfortable to think that Australians could start down the path of the little corporal.  It just demonstrates that the poison didn’t really cease at Nuremberg.

    • @CraigLambie says:

      08:56am | 19/10/11

      I have to agree with you @Joan.
      I am a big supporter of “green” policy but I am not a member as I don’t support a lot of their ideas either.  At the last couple of elections I was handing out information on the issues, with a score card for each party on the issues that mattered to me.
      I think it is 2011; we have had 110 years of the current system.  Lets re-write the constitution.
      Or at least have look at having a more transparent system, that accepts web based petitions to parliament.  Would be nice if I knew what the other 100,000 people in my federal electorate thought on an issue without going out and knocking on 1000 doors.  The cheapest and easiest way to do that is using this Modern Technology we have called “the web” Come on pollies, get with the times and accept electronic petitions.
      A step in the right direction would involve implementing something like this, even if it was only in one electorate: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Democratic-Evolution/101721126992?sk=wall

    • persephone says:

      06:34am | 19/10/11

      Emma

      sort of suggests that small ‘l’ liberals don’t belong in the Liberal party.

      Don’t confused the Liberals with liberalism. They were never intended to be a ‘liberal’ party. Menzies wanted to name them the Conservatives but thought that wouldn’t do down well with the Australian people.

    • acotrel says:

      06:49am | 19/10/11

      @Pers
      I agree the name ‘Liberal’ for the conservatives party was always false advertising.  But they were always into spin, so I’m not surprised. If you look back through history, their mindset has always been authoritarian, and their actions coercive.

    • AdamC says:

      08:24am | 19/10/11

      This isn’t the United States. ‘Liberal’ doesn’t mean socialist or socially democratic. There is a difference between liberalism and conservatism in Australian politics, but it isn’t as great as some people like to believe.

    • acotrel says:

      08:53am | 19/10/11

      @AdamC
      There is a big difference between ‘liberalism’ and ‘authoritarianism’, and thats what the conservatives are noted for in Australia !
      I don’t really know what a conservative ideology might be, perhaps it’s some kind of nostalgia kick ?  Sorry but the era of peasant slaves and land barons has passed, and will never return. The mentality of the John MacArthurs is out of place in our modern world.

    • James1 says:

      11:16am | 19/10/11

      Menzies named it the Liberal Party because it stood for liberty, as opposed to communism.  The choice of name was that simple.

    • Peter says:

      01:50pm | 19/10/11

      James1

      Malcolm Fraser now refers to the liberal party as the conservative party.

    • acotrel says:

      09:03pm | 19/10/11

      @James
      When Menzies named the Liberal Party he hadn’t discovered how to use ‘reds under the beds’ to score electoral points.  In fact he got back into power in 1948 by promising to remove petrol rationing.  Commie phobia only came along after the Korean War ewhen the Petrovs defected.  That’s when the catholics split from the ALP and started the DLP with Doc Mannix, and B.A.Santamaria playing their stupid games that got us involved in Vietnam.  Anyone who starts on commies these days simply shows their religous upbringing.  Like Tony Abbott saying ‘were not stalinist’ - it shows he’s still living in the Cold War era, and has got the old DLP thought processes, which are the stuff of nut jobs !  In a minute we’ll be back to the old sectarian crap with George Pell running the country via Tony Abbott !  Pauline Hanson would probably be a better option, she might dumb and racist, but at least she’s honest !

    • gobsmack says:

      06:35am | 19/10/11

      I know it’s incompatible with Westminster style democracy, but there is a lot to be said about the US primaries (which, incidentally, have been adopted by the French socialist party for the first time).  It gives grass root party members a sense of engagement and some sort of say.  At the moment both the Liberal and Labor parties have leaders that most people don’t want.

    • marley says:

      06:58am | 19/10/11

      Well, party conventions to decide on leadership aren’t inconsistent with the Westminster system.  Maybe the parties should try opening up their leadership selection processes to their members.  If all the members of the ALP or the Libs or whoever had a choice in deciding who would be the leader, that would do a lot more to engage the grass roots than the present system of leadership by coup or by caucus selection.

    • acotrel says:

      07:54am | 19/10/11

      That system certainly gave results. We got people like Jimmy Carter and George Dubya Bush leading the most powerful nation on earth - SCARY ! !
      I suggest it enhances the opportunity for some rich man’s incompetent son to make his mark.  This latest debacle brought the whole global economy down !

    • acotrel says:

      08:07am | 19/10/11

      @Al
      ‘There is no political party in existence that doesn’t push policies and/or views that I find abhorent.’

      There are four major operational risk areas - quality, safety, environment, security , and there is always a balance to be maintained between them.  That means there must be policy tradeoffs.  What is YOUR suggestion for an appropriate political platform ?  You obviously have something to contribute !

    • Al says:

      12:13pm | 19/10/11

      acotrel - actualy I have seriously considered running as an independant in the past, however due to the area I live in I know this would be pointless as it ALWAYS goes to the Liberals (even in the last election there was no significant shift away from them).
      It is easy enough, as long as you are on the electoral role and have not been convicted of a crime you can register as an independent by obtaining 15 (I think, it may be 20) peoples signatures that they support you and paying (around) $500 as a registration fee.

    • Al says:

      06:53am | 19/10/11

      There is one simple reason why I am not a member of any political party:
      There is no political party in existence that doesn’t push policies and/or views that I find abhorent.
      For example:

      Greens (and Labour) - Simple refusal to alow Nuclear Power to be discussed as a viable alternative as a baseload power generation system in conjunction with ‘green’ power generation such as solar, wind, wave etc.

      Labour - Massive tightening and restriction on the ability of the individual to determine their own terms and conditions of employment with a safety net in place (such as, say, purely voulantary statutory individual contracts).

      Liberal - Well the whole religous bent to this party realy annoys me for a start, and placing religous goals over the good of the Australian people is another good trick they use. This is one of the reasons we have never had a real seperation of church and state in Australia and churches receive tax concessions (they should be treated as a buisness).

      Simple realy.

    • bleD says:

      07:41am | 19/10/11

      Excellent comment A1. Have a look at the Secular Party website as you might be tempted to join.

    • Spikey says:

      07:25am | 19/10/11

      I’ll admit to being part of the very rare 1.3%.  I joined up at 18, because I thought it important to stand up for what I believe in.  While I don’t agree with everything my Party says or does (and there have been some Leaders I really did not like), I do think it’s important to be part of it, and to make my thoughts known - and declare where I stand. 

      Like it or not, the system we have is the system we have - and working to effect constructive change within is the logical course of action for those who really care.  I agree with Dan that the plethora of “action groups” is both disingenuous and deceptive.

      I say - nail your colours to the post and then barrack like crazy for your “team”.  You don’t have to love every player, you don’t have to agree with every move in the coach’s playbook, and there will be times when you are bitterly disappointed in their performance.  But if you care about the political process, declare where you stand and get involved.

    • Al says:

      07:44am | 19/10/11

      I declare that NONE of the political parties in existence represent my views and as such I REFUSE to ‘barrack like crazy’ for any of them.
      It is not the ‘players’ or the ‘coach’ it is simply that there are fundamental points of view pushed by ALL the parties that are incompatible with my own views, beliefs and goals.

      Isn’t this why Independants get voted in?

      I suggest one more option on evry ballot paper:
      “None of these people/parties represent me.”
      If a majority vote this then a new election or by-election is held with none of the original candidates permitted to run in that new election/by-election.

    • Mahhrat says:

      08:57am | 19/10/11

      @Al, I ***LIKE*** that idea.  Let’s do that.

      If enough people vote for “Nobody” then “Nobody” gets voted in.

    • Mr Nobody says:

      09:15am | 19/10/11

      I think you’ll find that I will win in a landslide… many thanks in advance.

    • Al says:

      09:28am | 19/10/11

      Mahhrat - We may have to be carefull though, wouldn’t that actualy make Australia more like an actual democracy?
      The people being able to tell the parties that their members aren’t acceptable, what next, actual represenation of the peoples views…..

    • acotrel says:

      09:35am | 19/10/11

      Nutcase minority groups will always vote !

    • St. Michael says:

      10:01am | 19/10/11

      “I joined up at 18, because I thought it important to stand up for what I believe in.  While I don’t agree with everything my Party says or does (and there have been some Leaders I really did not like), I do think it’s important to be part of it, and to make my thoughts known - and declare where I stand.”

      Sadly, you just demonstrated your moral hypocrisy.  You don’t agree with all of what your party says or does, but you support them anyway.  That is not standing up for what you believe in.  That is going along to get along.  And sadly, there’s enough people like you in the major political parties to keep the stupid and the vile in power within those parties—because they know not enough people are principled enough to resign over a point, and that most people don’t think about what their party’s doing anyway.

      “Like it or not, the system we have is the system we have - and working to effect constructive change within is the logical course of action for those who really care.”

      So change the system.  Form a different party that does reflect your views.  If they’re popular, you’ll get elected.  If they’re not, join the crowd.

      Politics is not a football field.  Nic Natanui doesn’t determine whether asylum seekers get held behind razor wire.  Stop analogising it as if it was funny, or fun, or without consequence.

    • Chris L says:

      02:44pm | 19/10/11

      Someone should refer St Michael to a good proctologist so he can get that stick removed.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:26pm | 19/10/11

      I’ll make sure that he gives you a call too, Chris.

      Well, you appear to be dribbling stuff out of your facial orifice which is normally meant to come out the other end.

    • Stephen says:

      07:36am | 19/10/11

      Political parties are now an aberration, because they all share fundamental and fatal flaw.

      They are ideologically driven. Any policy that emerges from a political party must conform to that parties basic ideology. And that is just plain dumb. Policies should conform to the needs and demands of the electorate.

      Thus, the suggestion that in order to influence politics, you must join a political party is like saying in order to promote anti-tobacco, you must take up smoking. Joining a political party means selecting an ideology that you empathise with. You become just another drone, chanting the manifesto.

      Political parties exist to gain and maintain power, in order to create a society that most conforms to their ideology. Gillard said she wanted to create a nation based on “Labour values”. No doubt, the Opposition will wish to do the opposite. This system has been perverted to the point of redundancy. The problem is that the only people with the authority to change it are those who benefit most from the status quo.

    • Tubesteak says:

      07:51am | 19/10/11

      Nice theory. But then we’d either have a lot of disparate parties (and coalition governments) or some big parties that flip-flop around on every issue.

      Maybe instead of having to legislate every area that give us more choice

    • Blake says:

      01:21pm | 19/10/11

      “Nice theory. But then we’d either have a lot of disparate parties (and coalition governments)”
      This is EXACTLY what I think we need.

      Proportional representation split across a large number of parties gives the highest chance of the majority ruling on every decision.
      It’s either that or we all vote ‘Senator online’ http://senatoronline.org.au/ and vote on every bill.

    • Anna C says:

      07:52am | 19/10/11

      These days only a masochist would join a political party. Who the hell would want this type aggravation?

    • Holly says:

      07:59am | 19/10/11

      If as you say you had “joined the dots” months ago about the role of Cory Bernadi in the anti carbon “tax” debate, why did you not do us the favour of releasing this information.  Were you under instructions not to?  I seem to recall putting forth a couple of comments about the role of the religious right ( or Australian Tea Party) in orchestrating the rolling of Malcolm Turnbull and the ETS, so it’s not as though it was a state secret, as I have no formal political affiliations and got my information from the web.  So why did you hold back.  Is the media there to inform or to manipulate.  Seems like just the latter.  Australia you have been conned big time.

    • Matt F says:

      08:57am | 19/10/11

      The Bernardi link was covered in the media months ago.

      In fact, if you click the quite obvious link in this article you’ll get taken to an old article from months ago which mentions Bernardi’s involvement. (Hint - the link is the blue bit that says “already joined the dots months ago.”)

      So much for that conspiracy theory of yours…............

      Not quite the conspiracy you want to believe

    • David says:

      08:43am | 19/10/11

      What an incredibly timely job you did, connecting those dots in August 2011…

      Here’s an article from October 2010 that does the same, only it offers more concrete evidence : http://bothkindsofpolitics.org/?p=3900

      Pay yourself on the back all you want, but you were still 10 months behind the times.

    • old fart says:

      08:58am | 19/10/11

      I think you should all have a look at Bob Katter’s new party’s website check their policies. They have a very refreshing perspective on many issues you have all mentioned here

    • acotrel says:

      09:39am | 19/10/11

      @old fart
      Keep that under your hat !

    • mick says:

      09:36am | 19/10/11

      When politicians were Statesmen and did what was in the interests of the nation people aspired to this job.  Today we have a bunch of snivelling cowards who have their snouts firmly in the trough and do what is good for their own re-election.  Perhaps that is why our politicians do not often stand up and make a call.  I mean you wouldn’t want to offend some minority or other and not be re-elected, would you.  Is it any wonder that pollies pander to all sorts of minorities which often enforce their standards onto a majority which is increasingly being marginalised and losing interest.

      The day we get a political party which shows more interest in the country and less in its own survival the sooner respect will return.

    • acotrel says:

      10:33am | 19/10/11

      @mick
      So sticking your neck out and taking the political risk in delivering the new technology of the NBN, isn’t showing interest in the country ?  Or do you want ‘more’ than that ? What did you have in mind ?

    • DocBud says:

      11:26am | 19/10/11

      Government’s are hopeless when it comes to delivering technology because they are too slow to keep up with developments.

      On ABC National Radio’s PM yesterday:

      MICHAEL JANDA: There had been an argument from some quarters that mobile broadband is improving at such a pace that a fixed line network is not necessary; what’s your take on that?

      CAMERON CRAIG: That’s absolutely the case. The speed increases that we’ve seen over the past couple of years have been mind-blowing, compared to where we were six years ago. The speed at which you can download wirelessly it just floors me and I don’t think that’s going to stop.

      You’re going to see this innovation in wireless networks here and in other countries and by the time the NBN roll-out is finished I can absolutely foresee speeds equivalent to or faster than the top tier fibre speed.

      Is that a white elephant in the room? Maybe the money would have been better left in the bank, or better still in the taxpayer’s pocket.

    • Esteban says:

      11:50am | 19/10/11

      I heard that radio broadcast last night Docbud.

      I have to say that I have been worried all along that a small population spread over a large continent was not a good mix for fixed line technology.

      I would have thought that fibre optic to major hospitals, universities and a few business hubs would have been sufficient.

      If the wireless speeds similar or better to fibre come to fruition then the mobility of wireless will win out.

      However people living in the very remote country will have NBN for gaming and facebook.

      On the other hand the thing is past the point of no return now so it will have to stay the elephant in the room.

    • Chris L says:

      02:59pm | 19/10/11

      Wireless will never be faster than fibre optic as information passes through fibre at the speed of light. With wireless the more people using it the more interference and loss of reliability you have.

      Also, assuming that people in the country only use the internet for gaming and facebook is both ignorant and arrogant.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      03:14pm | 19/10/11

      Well, I would disagree there with Cameron Craig.  While he might be floored by wireless speeds, they’re still so pitifully insignificant to what we’re developing with fibre, that they’re irrelevant.  Enterprise networks can already run link measured in hundreds of gigabits, using standard equipment.  Find me wireless that even comes close and can cover any reasonable distance without interference issues.

    • Dani says:

      09:37am | 19/10/11

      A bit like what others here have said - parties can seem to restrictive, but even more so, the two parties that we have have lost their ‘bases’. Once upon a time, people in the same industries had more cohesive worldviews. But now (please forgive the stereotyping here), blue collar workers who were typically labor’s base are concerned about issues like immigration and the carbon tax, which are they believe will affect their employment. White collar workers were typically the Liberal’s base, but many of these people no longer feel at home with the party’s stance on say, climate change or the NBN or whatever. That almost ‘given’ membership base was what made political parties work. Now without that, it’s no wonder people are looking for other groups that match their worldview more closely.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      10:59am | 19/10/11

      pretty accurate comment.

      In the last 10 years, more so now you would have to say its shifted. Labor had the unions and blue collar workers, Liberals had the business groups and the rich.

      Strange thing is the rich of the Liberal party ( artsi eastern suburbs types ) generally agree with immigration, its the right wing of the Liberals that hate immigration and the bogan part of the Labor party.

      Labor used to be able to basically count all immigrants votes as theirs, but I think this is starting to change.

    • Dan says:

      10:15am | 19/10/11

      The rise of public lobby groups is both the beginning, and the end of everything.

      People don’t like political parties, particularly the big two. For one, as Erick said above, it means accepting their ideology on a whole range of causes.
      Two, they’re a tarnished brand. Confidence in both parties and their leaders has never been lower. We don’t really want anything to do with them.

      This has caused a real problem not only for voters, but also the media. We can’t bear listening to politicians all day, but still want to discuss politics. These groups provide a whole range of political commentators, with no party attachment but plenty of strong opinions. Among them guys like Tim Wilson from the IPA, and Simon Sheikh from GetUp.

      As Dan pointed out above, this raises some serious issues. Questions like who’s funding what, and what agenda is being pushed, aren’t easily answered.

      So what’s the solution. Really, the burden should be on politicians here. It’s their own fault that trust levels are so pathetically low. It’s their own fault politics have never been cheaper, nastier and less intelligent.

      Parties should be looking for new members. They should be more open - a forum for ideas, rather than a spin factory. New blood should be welcomed, branches should be strengthened, and faceless men turfed out. Political donations should be capped, and the influence of unions/corporations reduced.

      Hand political parties back to the people that formed them in the first place, and they’ll stop running for the hills.

    • St. Michael says:

      10:27am | 19/10/11

      Either that, or be prepared, as Germany, Italy, and Russia all were not, for the rise of a third party which appears superficially attractive due to its uncompromising nature, attains a massive voter base rapidly, but which disguises a far more evil presence than anything in democracy’s wildest dreams.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      10:24am | 19/10/11

      Why have we dropped off being members of political parties?
      The answer is very, very simple.
      Those running political parties from their up-market, fancy Head Offices have long-since usurped what used to be the member’s preserves.
      The ALP started it & it has been embraced by the Liberals every bit as enthusiastically. I’m not sure about the Nationals for they seem to have no actual representation in SA but I don’t doubt the do the same.
      It used to be that Members of a Party, attended Branch Meetings. Over a period of time certain people stood out &, often unknowingly, became to be look upon as possible Parliamentary Candidates either at Federal or State levels. They were approached, they discussed the proposal and the Branch then held a Pre-Selection Meeting. The Candidate or Candidates then stood up & told the meeting why they would be a good representative. The Barnch member’s then voted. They selected Their candidate to stand at the next Federal or State Bye or General Election.
      Today, that process has, largely, been dispensed with. Branch Member’s get no say. Mostly nameless, faceless men & women from Head Office appear with the “Candidate of their Choice” in tow.
      Often some Party or Union Employee whom the Party Leader or other luminary has decided needs rewarding for the work they have done.
      This person is presented to the Branch meeting & the Members are simply told:
      “This is your new candidate for your electorate of “Slime”. You WILL endorse her/him. The Party will accept no-one else”
      The result? Party Member’s are no longer considered relevant. They are only of use on the basis of their Party Membership Fees. Doubtless if a party member from a Branch can afford it & quietly donates many 1000s to Head Office she/he will be looked upon favourably. She/he will, just like the party or Union hack be presented as that branch’s candidate.
      The major parties have deliberately disenfranchised their Members.
      Why the hell would anyone in their right mind who has an idea of entering politics bother for they would soon discover that the entire process has been corrupted to the extent that what we call Democracy no longer exists.
      Another result is that we get brain-dead, automatons elected to Parliaments.

    • Wilma J Craig says:

      10:40am | 19/10/11

      many, many moons ago a friend of mine lived in Sydney. She was amployed by a company which was very heavily involved in one of those ghaslty charades where some woman was given a title of “Miss Genteel Australia”
      Just like in current day politics the process was, but oh-so-genteely, corrupt.
      Meetings were held during which it was openly discussed that Miss Loosy Knickers she was the girlfriend, daughter or virginal screw of some company rep & she must win her heat. This was repeated over & over again until the reps floosies had won their heat.. Eventually Management got the winner they wanted, some “nice” girl who, if nothing else, could speak reasonable English without too much of an Aussie accent.
      Why would any decent, honest and, more particularly, Intelligent person with political aspirations bother to join a political party when the odds are stacked against them right from the start & some dinosaur (apologies to all dinosaurs) with no brain, no intelligence, no honesty is going to get preferential treatment because of whom they are sodomising or vaginally screwing?

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      10:54am | 19/10/11

      @Daniel
      I am a foundation member of the Climate Sceptics Party. I also am a member of the Conservative Action Network, the Australian Tea Party Movement and the social networking sight, ‘Just Grounds’ Senator Bernardi may have provided the funds to actually run the website, which I presume costs money, but he merely tapped into a group of like minded ‘fellow travellers’
      There was recently a story from a Government Funded organisation on ‘rising sea levels’ and how ‘we’ll all be rooned!’ I emailed my local (ALP) member, Mr Symon, asking what steps his Government was taking to protect Taxpayers assets such as Kirribilli House, Admiralty house and the Flinders Naval Depot, all low lying government properties. Instead of informing me of the practical steps his government was taking to protect public infrastructure I got back a vitriolic reply stating that as well as a sceptic and a denier, I obviously believed in a flat earth!

      I am unable to comment on other parties, but perhaps the reason the membership is so low is because they have disenfranchised their natural following and even their supporting unions have ‘successfully’ disenfranchised their members. The Union I formerly belonged to, United Voice’ ran a big campaign calling all who didn’t agree with CAGW sceptics, deniers and fools. When I wrote to question why they were spending my hard earned contributions on this campaign, I did not even get the courtesy of a reply, needless to say they no longer receive my contributions!

      Just a thought. Perhaps one of the reasons people no longer belong to political parties is because they don’t have to; thanks to places like The Punch, where we can enjoy political discourse and the sharing of ideas?

    • Steve Putnam says:

      05:02pm | 19/10/11

      Can you name one single respectable scientific organisation from any country that accepts AGW denialism? No? I thought not. There, in a nutshell is the reason you deniers get called fools.

    • jf says:

      05:52pm | 19/10/11

      Steve Putnam says:06:02pm | 19/10/11

      “Can you name one single respectable scientific organisation from any country that accepts AGW denialism”

      Professors Reid and Professor Carter from James Cook University. Professor Paltridge formerly with the CSIRO, for starters. Oops.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      08:02am | 20/10/11

      @ jf And more of the same. The CSIRO is a huge organisation employing thousands at over thirty research facilities nationally and internationally and you think its collective view on climate change is balanced by the few mavericks you mentioned. I’m surprised you didn’t mention hired guns like Lord Monckton, who apart from his lies on climate change, claims to have discovered a cure for AIDS, or Singer who claims cigarette smoke is harmless, or Professor Happer, who despite massive funding from Exxon was completely unsuccessful in his campaign to have The American Physical Society change its views on AGW.
      Whether one believes in AGW or not, we all hope and wish it isn’t happening, but as Margaret Thatcher put it in a famous speech to the Royal Society in 1988: “... we have unwittingly begun a massive experiment with the system of this planet itself (and) we have no laboratory in which to carry out controlled experiments…” We only have one Earth and if the overwhelming majority of individual scientists and all respectable scientific bodies say human impact is affecting its delicate ecological balances then we must change our ways. Its that simple.

    • jf says:

      01:13pm | 21/10/11

      Steve Putnam says:09:02am | 20/10/11

      @ jf And more of the same

      I’m rather more sceptical of the formal view of the compromised, collective group-think than I am of the views of highly qualified, experienced individuals with zero vested interest.

      I note that you were highly critical of the views of those that I didn’t nominate but having nothing to say of the view of those that I did.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      09:12pm | 21/10/11

      @ jf Carter is a member of The Institute of Public Affairs which is industry funded and therefore makes a mockery of your claim about “zero vested interest”. His a geologist/paleontologist with no profile among climate scientists.
      I’m surprised you brought up Paltridge as he is emphatic about not being a denialist. I haven’t read his book “The Climate Change Caper” but am reliably informed that the crux of his argument is that climate scientists are only in it for the money. This is an utterly ludicrous assertion. The rates of remuneration for academics have steadily fallen since the 1970s when I was an undergraduate. Most of my friends from that time who stuck with their careers as academics are still paying off their houses!
      Reid I don’t know.
      Maybe you could give Punchers a synopsis of their arguments explaining why you find them more convincing than those of The Royal Society, CSIRO, US Armed Forces, NASA, French Academy of Science et al?

    • Get Off says:

      11:05am | 19/10/11

      The problem with our political system esp at vote time is that you have too many idiotic parties on the ballot form.Outside the 2 main stream parties not one of them would have a clue how to run the counrty and in actual fact they couldn’t.By syphoning off votes to themselves they deprive the main stream parties of having the power necessary to deliver which is evident today.
      Parties were developed for the main stream not for weirdos to push their freaky agenders,so as soon we can rock up to an election and the ballot paper resembles the size of a pack of smokes…with the Malboro Man taking a buff…the better off us main streamers will be.

    • Posh Bingo says:

      11:16am | 19/10/11

      political people no longer join the political party
      political people just join websites instead to verbally abuse and verbally crush all opponents.

    • Posh Bingo says:

      11:20am | 19/10/11

      Here is the real answer .
      Only UGL masonic lodge members and KSC Knights of the Souther Cross members join major political parties. They just treat all others as total outsiders, irritating obnoxious pests and irrelevant scum of the earth.
      Thats why nobody joins up!

    • ..... says:

      11:30am | 19/10/11

      I was a member of the liberal party, WAS. I just had to quit it, the amount of grumpy old right wing hasbeens playing their little games, stacking branches to get in their puppet drove me away screaming, this is their plan. The rank & file is made up of retired accountants who relish in dusting of their suit jackets in voting in the twits like Bernardi. He ran for every seat that came up, state, federal, upper or lower, he didnt care, he was just desperate for power. Now he finally has his seat for life he is an embrassement, unfortunately the major political parties are full of Coreys. Real people with fresh ideas & progressive views are not really wanted in most branches of the LIberal party.

    • Martin says:

      01:15pm | 19/10/11

      Oh what rubbish.

    • JT says:

      12:20pm | 19/10/11

      There exists only two types of political parties and each is just a variation around these two types.

      Party A seeks to control the lives of others.
      Party B does not seek this control.

      In Australia; party A is Labor and party B is the Coalition.

      The wrongly attributed quote (to Churchill) ‘‘If you’re not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you’re not a conservative at forty you have no brain’’ applies here as well. At age 20 you wish to change the world regardless of whether those you wish to change actually want change, while most people by 40 give up this foolish notion and follow the let and let live doctrine.

    • Chris L says:

      03:29pm | 19/10/11

      You’re saying the Coalition do not seek control? Why do they participate in elections then?

    • JT says:

      03:38pm | 19/10/11

      Maybe you should learn to read Chris L as that is clearly not what I said.

    • Chris L says:

      04:38pm | 19/10/11

      In my defence, JT, you gave a very simplistic description. You defined the Coalition specifically as having no interest in control over people’s lives…. actually, now I think about it, where are you saying I misrepesented you?

    • palone says:

      09:42pm | 19/10/11

      @JT. I see what you mean. Howard/Abbott were not trying to control the lives of others when they sent our lads to their death in order to control the lives of the other lot. Wow ! Such great political nous.
      Abbott follows the ‘live and let live’ doctrine, you say.
      He follows the teaching of the rabid B A Santamaria, the
      rip-off merchants in the Vatican, and the Brethren-Cult worshipper, John Howard. And from all of them, he has developed a policy, (his first), of ‘live and let live’?
      And the quote you badly chose and misquoted refers to ‘Socialists’ and was as stupidly childish then as it is now.
      Your post stands as the classic example of why kids under twelve don’t get to vote. (Regardless of how old they actually are.)

    • Mikeymike says:

      12:43pm | 20/10/11

      JT, I’m with Chris L on this.

      You said, “Party A seeks to control the lives of others.
      Party B does not seek this control.”  And then: “party B is the Coalition.”
      Therefore the Liberal party does not seek to control the lives of others.

      Follow the logic of your statements and you will find that this is exactly what you said.

    • Martin says:

      08:51am | 21/10/11

      I’m having no trouble understanding what JT is on about.  He is correct, Labor get in, and straight away we have the social engineering agenda back in play. Labor, always in your face and in your pocket.

    • Kika says:

      12:58pm | 19/10/11

      That is a REALLY disturbing photo. errggghhhhh

    • Diogenes says:

      01:26pm | 19/10/11

      An interesting story told by my Father & mother in law. He local branch pres & she the secretary of an ALP branch on the NSW Mid north coast.

      For years they worked in the ALP getting support from other small business people (they owned a shop) and a popular local candidate for the state seat with a lot of credability in the electorate.

      Election by election the margin was whittled down until it got to the point where if the local member retired it was winnable - and then the sitting member announced his retirement….

      Next day FIL & MIL got a phone call from Sussex St to go the airport to meet an organiser. He climbs of the plane & introduced them to their new annoited candidate (a local person who was hated in the local branch).

      That election turned out to be a pyrhhic victory - candidate won, but nearly the whole branch resigned in disgust . Organiser went on to be Premier , FIL&SIL; moved to Qld in disgust at him being made Premier.

      If I were to join the party people assume I would ( I am a teacher) I woudl have the pleasure of helping to try to get reelected a Victorian who knows nothing of the Central Coast (yes him !)

    • Martin says:

      01:37pm | 19/10/11

      I see lots of posts on here on this subject, and it appears to me that the GetUp! mentality is alive and well. If you are a weirdo, with strange ideas or you haven’t grown up enough to realise the leftist bullshit that was rammed down your throat by teachers at your school is just that, bullshit, then I guess you are going to post this unrealistic utopian nonsense about perfect worlds and political parties that have policies that exactly match up with your queero thinking.

      Back to the real world and you realistically have a choice between Labor and the Coalition. Voting for weirdos like the Greens produces disasterous results such as the complete mess we have now, where Labor is too gutless to govern properly because they are scarred of upsetting a handful of weirdos that have so much say, so much influence. They are driving policy that panders to minor interests, and by doing so are really badly effecting the interests of the main stream voter.

      One thing has become very, very clear, this experiment with weirdo minor parties and interests has to go. People will have to, and I believe that many will, select one of the major parties so that we can be assured of government that will be able to deliver its policies rather than being hamstrung as Labor are now. 

      To finish, I believe Rudd will regain office and throw down the gauntlet to the Greens etc, whilst I can’t stand the bloke, I believe he will at least stand up to Brown and co. Rudd’s smart enough to realise this pandering to these clowns is ripping his party to pieces.

    • Chris L says:

      03:35pm | 19/10/11

      If only you could have it enshrined in law that everyone must vote Coalition or face imprisonment it would be a perfect world, eh Martin?

    • Arthur says:

      05:43pm | 19/10/11

      Agreed with you the whole way until “Rudd smart enough.”

      Labor are finished Rudd or not and the tragedy of this is we’ll revisit that disgusting workchoices.

      I also think minor parties will survive for the intelligent people that realise population growth is a curse and vote with whatever that party was (Aust for sust pop I think).

      I used to vote for Family First, thinking they’d bring back some morals and standards. Then they voted in favour of workchoices…..I’m sure it killed their party just as it affected the LNP…

      What were they thinking?

      It’s going to take a whole lot of pain before the collectively dumb voter wakes up.

    • Mattb says:

      07:06pm | 19/10/11

      Haha, no chris L, in a perfect world we’d all have a rewind button that we could press to go back 1 minute in time, and thus not waste the minute it took to read martin’s rubbish rant..

    • Martin says:

      09:14am | 20/10/11

      @Mattb. What’s rubbish Mattb?  Give us your pearls of wisdom, Matt. I’ll bet they’ll be a laugh a minute leftist packet of poo ticket.

      @ChrisL, I’d say you need to have a look at the way Labor is behaving re attempting to suppress free speech in the media first wouldn’t you think?

      @Arthur, I’m no fan of Rudd’s I can assure you.  Glad we could agree on most points.

    • Tory Bullshit For PM ! says:

      03:30pm | 19/10/11

      wind up all major political parties and put the masonic lodge in charge of Australia!

    • Arthur says:

      05:29pm | 19/10/11

      Gripper wankers.

    • Arthur says:

      05:30pm | 19/10/11

      Not enough goats to initiate new members!

    • Arthur Bastard says:

      09:24pm | 19/10/11

      All this has given me an idea. I would like to use this forum to announce the launch of the Bastard Party, a Party for All of Us.

      With help from the Punch audience, I aim to field candidates in forthcoming Local Government Elections (LG being the area I believe Bastardism is most likely to take root and thrive). From there we can grow and restore true democracy to our land.
      The Bastard Party’s central platform will be whatever I think about a particular issue at a given point in time. Right now it is the bus stop nearest to my house. It isn’t close enough for my liking and no one on my current local council has the GUTS to stand up and fight for justice. They say that they have other priorities like maintaining the roads and the sewers and streets and street lights and collecting garbage and a bunch of other lefty crap, and they refuse to understand that NONE OF THESE ARE THE ISSUE right now. I’m unhappy about the bus stop… and it’s time for them to LISTEN!

      So, vote Bastard at your next Local Government elections! Better yet, start your own local branch! Together, WE CAN get that bus stop moved 200 metres closer to where I live! Together, we can rebuild AUSTRALIA!

      I thank you all for your support.

    • Paul M says:

      12:31pm | 20/10/11

      The problem with the system we had is that it was tricky to get the bribes though. All that accountability, and the laws. These privately-funded bodies - I believe the correct word is “conspiracies” - make it much easier.

      Yes, conspiracy. When people get together to make changes that affect public policy *and* attempt to keep creation things secret, such as the source of their funding, then it’s a conspiracy. By definition.

    • subotic says:

      12:44pm | 21/10/11

      Electronic Mother’s Day Card: Come, Comrade Bender, we must take to the streets.
      Bender: Umm, is this the boring, peaceful kind of taking to the streets?
      Electronic Mother’s Day Card: No, the kind with looting. And maybe starting a few fires.
      Bender: Yes! In your face, Gandhi!

    • college basketball says:

      09:45pm | 27/02/12

      Comrade kill yourself.

 

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